I got Permalin Tapioca Antique. Basically someone was misinformed and is
was passed on to me. They are sending some other things to test for
exchange. The papers may possibly work with acrylics though I haven't tried
yet, no time. If so, I will have them eternally for my paper and fabric
workshops at Peters Valley where we just use acrylics.
Half a refund isn't good enough, but what can I do, It would cost more than
the balance owed to take it to court in another state. I will take
something else if it works. Though I would use that up and never deal with
them again, period.
Thanks for info and help,
iris
Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>
Dear Iris.--- Please tell me, so that I will not order the failed
paper, which items did your receive that performed so poorly? Like,
which exact things from their current line?
In the past I have requested a cut from the floor stock from the roll
my paper order would be cut from. They do have ID on each huge roll.
They take the roll to a cutting machine and it somehow makes the 26 x
40" sheets I get in the box. (Usually a broken and tortured box, as
UPS for some reason instructs their elephanats to dance on my paper)
This floor sample step did not work well for you,which I think is a
shame. It is Permalin's fault you did not get good paper in the
shipment, and a half refund is not good enough. Why can;t they take
the paper back for replacement with other sorts? Can the paper be used
for paste papers or other techniques? Maybe you can sell it off to
some other artists who have different paper needs. It is a lot of
moneyu tied up. I have a lot of unused paper I would be glad to sell
off, but I am not too good at getting that job done.
Yours, Peggy Skycraft
<
> Hello,
> Iıve been away and seem to have missed the beginning of this thread, but here
> is my 2 cents. Alum contamination leaves jaggedly edges that resist being
> combed and leave ragged holes in the pattern...no lumps or bumps. You can
> sink the alum holes and spot clean the contamination with a piece of
> newspaper. Another problem may be the PH of the size and of the pigments you
> are using. They should be just about the same temperature and the same PH.
> Now your size PH can be tested with some PH tape (try your local, small
> pharmacy) as for the pigments, youıll need a PH meter or several pleading and
> insisting phone calls to your supplier to tell you what is the PH of their
> product. Hereıs where white vinegar, soda ash and ammonia come into play..to
> adjust the PH levels of your size. If you are using distilled water it will
> be around a 7 and this should work well with pigments that are as high as 9.
> What is your water source? Pure sodium hexemetaphosphate will soften your
> water but it will not change the PH. The powdered Calgon (scented somewhat)
> that you order from Benkiser will raise your PH. I also found out that is is
> a great for cleaning and polishing stainless ! Best wishes, Gail M.
>
> Dear Angela:
>
> I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very few "seconds."
> Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
>
> Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken pattern
> and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.) Dissolve
> a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath (about
> two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a problem,
> add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I think
> your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add Calgon
> (metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
>
> There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I have
> worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding fresh size
> and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic bacterial
> degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors breakup.)
>
> Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
> Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it to be
> a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive carrageen.
>
> I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much dissolved
> acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be that
> the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
>
> Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what the
> temprature or humidity is.
>
> Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too mineral.
> Calgon solves this too.
>
> Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush. Rinse
> well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do not
> think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such are
> used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything if I
> want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible with
> acrylic at all.
>
> Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
>
> Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk can be
> dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This allows
> evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum dissolvingf in
> the size.
>
> Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the marbling.
> Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip back
> into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and rinse
> with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them to
> rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
>
> Yours, Peggy Skycraft
>
> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson <dave1robin@y...>
> wrote:
>> > Dear Angela,
>> > I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
>> > problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
>> > problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
>> > contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
>> > better between scarves.Always use the directions on
>> > the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
>> > problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
>> > weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
>> > response. Good Luck.
>> > Robin Olson, Chicago
>> > --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
>>> > > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
>>> > > contaminated about
>>> > > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
>>> > > blank spots in the
>>> > > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
>>> > > carrageenan as my
>>> > > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
>>> > > size was the
>>> > > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
>>> > > the weather was
>>> > > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
>>> > > just moved my work
>>> > > indoors and am having the same problem and the
>>> > > temperature is about
>>> > > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
>>> > > do I clean them?
>>> > > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
>>> > > further contaminate
>>> > > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
>>> > > almost no humidity,
>>> > > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
>>> > > skim using
>>> > > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
>>> > > Any suggestions
>>> > > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
>>> > > although I can
>>> > > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
>>> > > flaw, I would
>>> > > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
>>> > > make enough
>>> > > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
>>> > > with a mind of
>>> > > its own. Thanks!
>>> > >
>>> > > Angie
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Does all this just apply to acrylics? What about Calgon with watercolors?
Not that I have any complaints.....sometimes ignorance is bliss. When I was
figuring out marbling on my own with no one telling me right and wrong, I
just merrily used my extremely hard tapwater for everything and it always
worked. When I tried other things that were supposed to work they didn't.
I'll try anything in an attempt to make things easier and better, but if
anyone knows of the effect of these things on watercolor prior to my
experimenting and wasting time and materials I'd be interested. I know
Borax in the size is hell on my watercolors, as is water that comes from a
watersoftener...things go pale and fuzzy. I have learned to make "just
enough" size for the day though and have no interest in preserving it.
After doing over 100 sheets it's shot anyway, full of filth and you can
barely see anyway.
iris nevins
Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>
> Hello,
> Iıve been away and seem to have missed the beginning of this thread, but
here
> is my 2 cents. Alum contamination leaves jaggedly edges that resist
being
> combed and leave ragged holes in the pattern...no lumps or bumps. You
can
> sink the alum holes and spot clean the contamination with a piece of
> newspaper. Another problem may be the PH of the size and of the pigments
you
> are using. They should be just about the same temperature and the same
PH.
> Now your size PH can be tested with some PH tape (try your local, small
> pharmacy) as for the pigments, youıll need a PH meter or several pleading
and
> insisting phone calls to your supplier to tell you what is the PH of
their
> product. Hereıs where white vinegar, soda ash and ammonia come into
play..to
> adjust the PH levels of your size. If you are using distilled water it
will
> be around a 7 and this should work well with pigments that are as high as
9.
> What is your water source? Pure sodium hexemetaphosphate will soften
your
> water but it will not change the PH. The powdered Calgon (scented
somewhat)
> that you order from Benkiser will raise your PH. I also found out that
is is
> a great for cleaning and polishing stainless ! Best wishes, Gail M.
>
> Dear Angela:
>
> I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very few "seconds."
> Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
>
> Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken pattern
> and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.) Dissolve
> a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath (about
> two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a problem,
> add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I think
> your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add Calgon
> (metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
>
> There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I have
> worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding fresh size
> and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic bacterial
> degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors breakup.)
>
> Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
> Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it to be
> a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive carrageen.
>
> I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much dissolved
> acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be that
> the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
>
> Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what the
> temprature or humidity is.
>
> Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too mineral.
> Calgon solves this too.
>
> Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush. Rinse
> well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do not
> think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such are
> used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything if I
> want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible with
> acrylic at all.
>
> Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
>
> Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk can be
> dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This allows
> evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum dissolvingf in
> the size.
>
> Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the marbling.
> Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip back
> into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and rinse
> with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them to
> rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
>
> Yours, Peggy Skycraft
>
> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson <dave1robin@y...>
> wrote:
>> > Dear Angela,
>> > I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
>> > problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
>> > problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
>> > contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
>> > better between scarves.Always use the directions on
>> > the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
>> > problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
>> > weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
>> > response. Good Luck.
>> > Robin Olson, Chicago
>> > --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
>>> > > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
>>> > > contaminated about
>>> > > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
>>> > > blank spots in the
>>> > > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
>>> > > carrageenan as my
>>> > > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
>>> > > size was the
>>> > > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
>>> > > the weather was
>>> > > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
>>> > > just moved my work
>>> > > indoors and am having the same problem and the
>>> > > temperature is about
>>> > > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
>>> > > do I clean them?
>>> > > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
>>> > > further contaminate
>>> > > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
>>> > > almost no humidity,
>>> > > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
>>> > > skim using
>>> > > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
>>> > > Any suggestions
>>> > > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
>>> > > although I can
>>> > > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
>>> > > flaw, I would
>>> > > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
>>> > > make enough
>>> > > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
>>> > > with a mind of
>>> > > its own. Thanks!
>>> > >
>>> > > Angie
>>> > >
>>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:25:43 -0800
Subject: Re: [Marbling] Fix your troublesome size
Reply-To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
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<
Hi, Peggy,
Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions on working with size. Are you
working with methylcel or carragheenan? I apologize if you hve mentioned that
in
your previous posts....
Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
> I donıt know, Iris. Iıll try some of your paints after I finish my run today
> and see what happens!! Gail
>
> Does all this just apply to acrylics? What about Calgon with watercolors?
> Not that I have any complaints.....sometimes ignorance is bliss. When I was
> figuring out marbling on my own with no one telling me right and wrong, I
> just merrily used my extremely hard tapwater for everything and it always
> worked. When I tried other things that were supposed to work they didn't.
> I'll try anything in an attempt to make things easier and better, but if
> anyone knows of the effect of these things on watercolor prior to my
> experimenting and wasting time and materials I'd be interested. I know
> Borax in the size is hell on my watercolors, as is water that comes from a
> watersoftener...things go pale and fuzzy. I have learned to make "just
> enough" size for the day though and have no interest in preserving it.
> After doing over 100 sheets it's shot anyway, full of filth and you can
> barely see anyway.
>
> iris nevins
>
> Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> > Iıve been away and seem to have missed the beginning of this thread, but
> here
>> > is my 2 cents. Alum contamination leaves jaggedly edges that resist
> being
>> > combed and leave ragged holes in the pattern...no lumps or bumps. You
> can
>> > sink the alum holes and spot clean the contamination with a piece of
>> > newspaper. Another problem may be the PH of the size and of the pigments
> you
>> > are using. They should be just about the same temperature and the same
> PH.
>> > Now your size PH can be tested with some PH tape (try your local, small
>> > pharmacy) as for the pigments, youıll need a PH meter or several pleading
> and
>> > insisting phone calls to your supplier to tell you what is the PH of
> their
>> > product. Hereıs where white vinegar, soda ash and ammonia come into
> play..to
>> > adjust the PH levels of your size. If you are using distilled water it
> will
>> > be around a 7 and this should work well with pigments that are as high as
> 9.
>> > What is your water source? Pure sodium hexemetaphosphate will soften
> your
>> > water but it will not change the PH. The powdered Calgon (scented
> somewhat)
>> > that you order from Benkiser will raise your PH. I also found out that
> is is
>> > a great for cleaning and polishing stainless ! Best wishes, Gail M.
>> >
>> > Dear Angela:
>> >
>> > I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very few "seconds."
>> > Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
>> >
>> > Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken pattern
>> > and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.) Dissolve
>> > a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath (about
>> > two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a problem,
>> > add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I think
>> > your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add Calgon
>> > (metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
>> >
>> > There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I have
>> > worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding fresh size
>> > and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic bacterial
>> > degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors breakup.)
>> >
>> > Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
>> > Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it to be
>> > a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive carrageen.
>> >
>> > I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much dissolved
>> > acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be that
>> > the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
>> >
>> > Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what the
>> > temprature or humidity is.
>> >
>> > Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too mineral.
>> > Calgon solves this too.
>> >
>> > Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush. Rinse
>> > well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do not
>> > think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such are
>> > used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything if I
>> > want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible with
>> > acrylic at all.
>> >
>> > Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
>> >
>> > Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk can be
>> > dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This allows
>> > evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum dissolvingf in
>> > the size.
>> >
>> > Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the marbling.
>> > Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip back
>> > into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and rinse
>> > with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them to
>> > rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
>> >
>> > Yours, Peggy Skycraft
>> >
>> > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson <dave1robin@y...>
>> > wrote:
>>>> >> > Dear Angela,
>>>> >> > I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
>>>> >> > problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
>>>> >> > problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
>>>> >> > contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
>>>> >> > better between scarves.Always use the directions on
>>>> >> > the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
>>>> >> > problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
>>>> >> > weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
>>>> >> > response. Good Luck.
>>>> >> > Robin Olson, Chicago
>>>> >> > --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
>>>>>> >>> > > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
>>>>>> >>> > > contaminated about
>>>>>> >>> > > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
>>>>>> >>> > > blank spots in the
>>>>>> >>> > > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
>>>>>> >>> > > carrageenan as my
>>>>>> >>> > > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
>>>>>> >>> > > size was the
>>>>>> >>> > > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
>>>>>> >>> > > the weather was
>>>>>> >>> > > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
>>>>>> >>> > > just moved my work
>>>>>> >>> > > indoors and am having the same problem and the
>>>>>> >>> > > temperature is about
>>>>>> >>> > > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
>>>>>> >>> > > do I clean them?
>>>>>> >>> > > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
>>>>>> >>> > > further contaminate
>>>>>> >>> > > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
>>>>>> >>> > > almost no humidity,
>>>>>> >>> > > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
>>>>>> >>> > > skim using
>>>>>> >>> > > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
>>>>>> >>> > > Any suggestions
>>>>>> >>> > > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
>>>>>> >>> > > although I can
>>>>>> >>> > > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
>>>>>> >>> > > flaw, I would
>>>>>> >>> > > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
>>>>>> >>> > > make enough
>>>>>> >>> > > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
>>>>>> >>> > > with a mind of
>>>>>> >>> > > its own. Thanks!
>>>>>> >>> > >
>>>>>> >>> > > Angie
>>>>>> >>> > >
>>>>>> >>> > >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > __________________________________
>>>> >> > Do you Yahoo!?
>>>> >> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>>>> >> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> >
>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:25:43 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Marbling] Fix your troublesome size
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks gail...just keep in mind the watercolor won't work on a bath that's
had acrylic in it. Also best on carrageenan....don't worry about it if it's
a bother.
thanks,
iris Nevins
> Hi Iris...it was a very long day, but the sun was shining!! Youıre certainly
> correct in saying that your water color pigments wonıt work on a bath that has
> been pounded into sludge with acrylics...Galen Berryıs didnıt move either.
> Iıll try on a brand new bath made in a thoroughly scrubbed out tray and see if
> I can get them to work on methyl cell...this will happen after Christmas. I
> have 20 people coming for the holidays: 4 motel rooms booked! Go to
> http://homesolutionsnews.com/rbdocs/us/calgon/ for Calgon information. They
> used to have several types depending on the phosphate levels now they say NO
> phosphates. The powder (with the stinky perfume smell) will raise the PH 2-3
> points (this you need if youıre mixing methyl cell to hold it in suspension)
> the liquid (equally smelly) will not do this. The Calgon that RG&S used to
> sell would not change the PH but I donıt know what product they have now.
> They are great people and will bend over backwards to be of help .Regards,
> Gail
>
> Thanks gail...just keep in mind the watercolor won't work on a bath that's
> had acrylic in it. Also best on carrageenan....don't worry about it if it's
> a bother.
>
> thanks,
> iris Nevins
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
After two marbling sessions I haven't definetly solved my problem,
but I am not having as much trouble either. From everyone's
descriptions, I am pretty sure it is alum contamination. I had
increased the alum in my solution a couple of weeks ago. With a
weaker solution, I have had less trouble. Meticulous skimming has
helped. And I have also applied my paints more carefully (a very
hard thing, as I do like to fling the paint a little). When my vat
gets to the point that skimming doesn't help, I will try the calgon
(is this the same Calgon as in the "Calgon take me away" commercials?)
I have happily decided it is not the spectralite paints. They
disperse wonderfully, comb well and take to the fabric so well that I
didn't want to have to get rid of them. I can also dunk the finished
scarf in a bucket without concern that my pattern will come off.
The good news is that people seem to like the scarves I've shadow
marbled. Of course, I don't tell them that they were marbled a
second time because the first time I messed up!
Finally, thank you so much for all the responses. At first, I was a
little overwhelmed and began to doubt all that I had learned how to
do. But it is great to have so much response in so little time.
Some of the responses helped me "remember" to be more careful in
basic techniques (do we all get a little lazy with things we think we
understand?) and others have introduced ideas I hadn't heard of
before.
Angie
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "peggy skycraft" <peggy@s...> wrote:
> Dear Angela:
>
> I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very
few "seconds."
> Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
>
> Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken pattern
> and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.)
Dissolve
> a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath
(about
> two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a problem,
> add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I think
> your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add Calgon
> (metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
>
> There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I have
> worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding fresh
size
> and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic bacterial
> degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors breakup.)
>
> Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
> Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it to
be
> a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive
carrageen.
>
> I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much dissolved
> acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be
that
> the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
>
> Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what
the
> temprature or humidity is.
>
> Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too mineral.
> Calgon solves this too.
>
> Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush.
Rinse
> well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do not
> think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such are
> used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything if I
> want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible with
> acrylic at all.
>
> Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
>
> Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk can be
> dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This allows
> evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum dissolvingf in
> the size.
>
> Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the
marbling.
> Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip back
> into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and rinse
> with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them to
> rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
>
> Yours, Peggy Skycraft
>
> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson <dave1robin@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dear Angela,
> > I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
> > problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
> > problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
> > contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
> > better between scarves.Always use the directions on
> > the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
> > problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
> > weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
> > response. Good Luck.
> > Robin Olson, Chicago
> > --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
> > > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
> > > contaminated about
> > > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
> > > blank spots in the
> > > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
> > > carrageenan as my
> > > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
> > > size was the
> > > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
> > > the weather was
> > > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
> > > just moved my work
> > > indoors and am having the same problem and the
> > > temperature is about
> > > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
> > > do I clean them?
> > > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
> > > further contaminate
> > > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
> > > almost no humidity,
> > > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
> > > skim using
> > > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
> > > Any suggestions
> > > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
> > > although I can
> > > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
> > > flaw, I would
> > > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
> > > make enough
> > > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
> > > with a mind of
> > > its own. Thanks!
> > >
> > > Angie
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
Gail,
I have been using tap water with no trouble until a couple of weeks
ago. I know the Ph is low because we have to adjust the water for
our fish tank... hadn't considered it a problem for the marbling.
Looks like I'll be purchasing some calgon. Thanks!
Angie
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Gail MacKenzie <gailmackenzi@s...>
wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Iıve been away and seem to have missed the beginning of this
thread, but here
> > is my 2 cents. Alum contamination leaves jaggedly edges that
resist being
> > combed and leave ragged holes in the pattern...no lumps or
bumps. You can
> > sink the alum holes and spot clean the contamination with a piece
of
> > newspaper. Another problem may be the PH of the size and of the
pigments you
> > are using. They should be just about the same temperature and
the same PH.
> > Now your size PH can be tested with some PH tape (try your local,
small
> > pharmacy) as for the pigments, youıll need a PH meter or several
pleading and
> > insisting phone calls to your supplier to tell you what is the PH
of their
> > product. Hereıs where white vinegar, soda ash and ammonia come
into play..to
> > adjust the PH levels of your size. If you are using distilled
water it will
> > be around a 7 and this should work well with pigments that are as
high as 9.
> > What is your water source? Pure sodium hexemetaphosphate will
soften your
> > water but it will not change the PH. The powdered Calgon
(scented somewhat)
> > that you order from Benkiser will raise your PH. I also found
out that is is
> > a great for cleaning and polishing stainless ! Best wishes,
Gail M.
> >
> > Dear Angela:
> >
> > I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very
few "seconds."
> > Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
> >
> > Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken
pattern
> > and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.)
Dissolve
> > a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath
(about
> > two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a
problem,
> > add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I think
> > your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add
Calgon
> > (metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
> >
> > There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I have
> > worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding fresh
size
> > and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic
bacterial
> > degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors breakup.)
> >
> > Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
> > Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it
to be
> > a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive
carrageen.
> >
> > I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much
dissolved
> > acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be
that
> > the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
> >
> > Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what
the
> > temprature or humidity is.
> >
> > Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too mineral.
> > Calgon solves this too.
> >
> > Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush.
Rinse
> > well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do not
> > think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such
are
> > used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything if
I
> > want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible with
> > acrylic at all.
> >
> > Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
> >
> > Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk can
be
> > dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This allows
> > evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum dissolvingf
in
> > the size.
> >
> > Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the
marbling.
> > Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip back
> > into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and rinse
> > with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them to
> > rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
> >
> > Yours, Peggy Skycraft
> >
> > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson
<dave1robin@y...>
> > wrote:
> >> > Dear Angela,
> >> > I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
> >> > problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
> >> > problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
> >> > contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
> >> > better between scarves.Always use the directions on
> >> > the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
> >> > problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
> >> > weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
> >> > response. Good Luck.
> >> > Robin Olson, Chicago
> >> > --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
> >>> > > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
> >>> > > contaminated about
> >>> > > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
> >>> > > blank spots in the
> >>> > > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
> >>> > > carrageenan as my
> >>> > > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
> >>> > > size was the
> >>> > > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
> >>> > > the weather was
> >>> > > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
> >>> > > just moved my work
> >>> > > indoors and am having the same problem and the
> >>> > > temperature is about
> >>> > > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
> >>> > > do I clean them?
> >>> > > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
> >>> > > further contaminate
> >>> > > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
> >>> > > almost no humidity,
> >>> > > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
> >>> > > skim using
> >>> > > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
> >>> > > Any suggestions
> >>> > > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
> >>> > > although I can
> >>> > > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
> >>> > > flaw, I would
> >>> > > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
> >>> > > make enough
> >>> > > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
> >>> > > with a mind of
> >>> > > its own. Thanks!
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Angie
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > __________________________________
> >> > Do you Yahoo!?
> >> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> >> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thanks Gail. So far my unenlightenend marbling methods have worked pretty
well for nearly 26 years. I only have major trouble when papers change
formulas it seems. ugh. Still no word from Permalin and no new
samples...shall have to call them again. Enjoy the holiday chaos. Mine will
be nice and quiet I hope!
Iris Nevins
Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
> Hi Iris...it was a very long day, but the sun was shining!! Youıre
certainly
> correct in saying that your water color pigments wonıt work on a bath
that has
> been pounded into sludge with acrylics...Galen Berryıs didnıt move
either.
> Iıll try on a brand new bath made in a thoroughly scrubbed out tray and
see if
> I can get them to work on methyl cell...this will happen after Christmas.
I
> have 20 people coming for the holidays: 4 motel rooms booked! Go to
> http://homesolutionsnews.com/rbdocs/us/calgon/ for Calgon information.
They
> used to have several types depending on the phosphate levels now they say
NO
> phosphates. The powder (with the stinky perfume smell) will raise the PH
2-3
> points (this you need if youıre mixing methyl cell to hold it in
suspension)
> the liquid (equally smelly) will not do this. The Calgon that RG&S used
to
> sell would not change the PH but I donıt know what product they have now.
> They are great people and will bend over backwards to be of help
.Regards,
> Gail
>
> Thanks gail...just keep in mind the watercolor won't work on a bath
that's
> had acrylic in it. Also best on carrageenan....don't worry about it if
it's
> a bother.
>
> thanks,
> iris Nevins<
Yes there is a difference. "CALGON"is the official name for a
proprietary product, which is made up of a combination of ingredients,
depending on which region it is sold in. Sodium Hexemetaphosphate, the
chemical name of a major active ingredient,is the one we want to use.
The trouble is, "Calgon" has perfume and who knows what else in it.
The less unknown additives, the better.
So we want to use the plain ingredient, the "metaphosphate" part. The
Rupert. Gibbon product called "Calgon" is really just the
metaphosphate. Pro Chemical's equal product is also just the
metaphosphate. Use these.
The metaphosphate water softener is handy for household uses also: in
laundry, scrubbing shower tile, in the bath, etc.
Peggy Skcraft
n Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "PatV" <fiberbrat@c...> wrote:
> Is there any difference (chemically) between grocery store Calgon
and dye
> house calgon?
> Thank you, PatV
--- peggy skycraft <peggy@...> wrote:
> Sodium Hexemetaphosphate, the
> chemical name of a major active ingredient,is the
> one we want to use.
well I was looking this up online to see what it did
(I am sort of new to all the technical side of
marbling although I have tried it with paints
primatively for years) and found this link to terms...
maybe not new to you all but thought I would list it
in case it helped anyone else:
http://www.dyeman.com/Glossary.htm#sectM
Rhoz
=====
http://www.rhoz.com/rhozart.htm
__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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Thanks Rhoz, the BATIK OETORO Glossary of textile terms is marbvelous
and would be useful for any artist who wants to know more about
materials. Thanks so much for sharing that link.
Batik Oetoro is a textile supplier which stocks carrageenan and other
supplies useful for marblers in Australia,New Zealande and Tasmania.A
really excellent resource for those of you marblers who live "down under".
Peggy
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, rhoz
<rhozza@y...> wrote:
>
> --- peggy skycraft <peggy@s...> wrote:
> > Sodium Hexemetaphosphate, the
> > chemical name of a major active ingredient,is the
> > one we want to use.
>
>
> well I was looking this up online to see what it did
> (I am sort of new to all the technical side of
> marbling although I have tried it with paints
> primatively for years) and found this link to terms...
> maybe not new to you all but thought I would list it
> in case it helped anyone else:
>
> http://www.dyeman.com/Glossary.htm#sectM
>
> Rhoz
>
> =====
> http://www.rhoz.com/rhozart.htm
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
Roz
do you know where is BUKO-UNDO company in NYC? This
outfit supplies certain inks used widely in JAPAN. I
am in the area but could not locate the firm.. Any
news will be appreciated..
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
Boku-undo is made by a Japanese company! You can find these colors in
many art stores and in mail order catalogues. Sax arts has them as do
the school supply catalogues. Teachers like them, and those
catalogs have quantity packaging as well as small kits.
Diane maurer has Boku-undo supplies. She did a nice segment
for Carol Duvall crafts TV and the instructions are still on that
server. Just google it: Boku-undo.
(from that page) marbling supplies
Kodak PhotoFlo, Boku-undo marbling colors, marbling kits, paper,
suminagashi paints, brushes.
Diane Maurer-Mathison Hand Marbled Papers
Spring Mills, PA
US
Phone: 814-422-8651
Email: dkmaurer1@...
URL: www.dianemaurer.com
best luck, Peggy SKycraft
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "m.k." <umayt@y...> wrote:
> Roz
> do you know where is BUKO-UNDO company in NYC? This
> outfit supplies certain inks used widely in JAPAN. I
> am in the area but could not locate the firm.. Any
> news will be appreciated..
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
try this url, scroll down to supplies ,
do let us - who are remote from NYC - hear what their shop is like, Del
"m.k." wrote:
> Roz
> do you know where is BUKO-UNDO company in NYC? This
> outfit supplies certain inks used widely in JAPAN. I
> am in the area but could not locate the firm.. Any
> news will be appreciated..
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
[click here]
>
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>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
I have checked with one of the most valuable source of
information center in NYC business Library and found
NO detail about the buko-undo company... They are
either out of business of changed a name!! Any lead to
locate them is highly appreciated.. yours
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
http://www.takase.com/Washi/Washi.htm
sorry, I didn't include this url in my last email....Del
"del.mary.stubbs" wrote:
> try this url, scroll down to supplies ,
> do let us - who are remote from NYC - hear what their shop is like,
> Del
>
> "m.k." wrote:
>
> > Roz
> > do you know where is BUKO-UNDO company in NYC? This
> > outfit supplies certain inks used widely in JAPAN. I
> > am in the area but could not locate the firm.. Any
> > news will be appreciated..
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [click here]
>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
Hello, Does anyone know of a class/workshop in the southeast region for
marbling scarves or other fabrics? I've read books, etc, but I'd like the
"hands-on" learning. thanks. Cynthia
----- Original Message -----
From: peggy skycraft
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:43 PM
Subject: [Marbling] Fix your troublesome size
Dear Angela:
I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very few "seconds."
Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken pattern
and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.) Dissolve
a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath (about
two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a problem,
add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I think
your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add Calgon
(metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I have
worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding fresh size
and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic bacterial
degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors breakup.)
Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it to be
a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive carrageen.
I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much dissolved
acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be that
the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what the
temprature or humidity is.
Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too mineral.
Calgon solves this too.
Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush. Rinse
well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do not
think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such are
used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything if I
want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible with
acrylic at all.
Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk can be
dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This allows
evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum dissolvingf in
the size.
Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the marbling.
Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip back
into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and rinse
with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them to
rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
Yours, Peggy Skycraft
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson <dave1robin@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Angela,
> I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
> problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
> problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
> contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
> better between scarves.Always use the directions on
> the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
> problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
> weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
> response. Good Luck.
> Robin Olson, Chicago
> --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
> > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
> > contaminated about
> > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
> > blank spots in the
> > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
> > carrageenan as my
> > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
> > size was the
> > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
> > the weather was
> > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
> > just moved my work
> > indoors and am having the same problem and the
> > temperature is about
> > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
> > do I clean them?
> > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
> > further contaminate
> > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
> > almost no humidity,
> > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
> > skim using
> > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
> > Any suggestions
> > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
> > although I can
> > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
> > flaw, I would
> > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
> > make enough
> > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
> > with a mind of
> > its own. Thanks!
> >
> > Angie
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
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> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
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Hi!
Laura Sims is teaching a week long workshop at Arrowmont (Gatlinburg, TN) in
late March. The website is www.arrowmont.org. Arrowmont was the site of the
Marbler's Gathering a year ago - great crafts center! (and the food is good,
too!)
HTH!
Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis
Hi All
Greetings from Japan
For your reference,Home page of boku-undo is
http://www.boku-undo.co.jp/HP/eindex.htm
Please visit HP of Suimonga, which does not use alm and carageen and use
only tap water, You can find Japanese unique marbling.
http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~kuroda/
Takaji Kuroda
----- Original Message -----
From: "del.mary.stubbs" <mdstubbs@...>
To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Marbling] BUKO-UNDO -URL
> http://www.takase.com/Washi/Washi.htm
> sorry, I didn't include this url in my last email....Del
>
> "del.mary.stubbs" wrote:
>
> > try this url, scroll down to supplies ,
> > do let us - who are remote from NYC - hear what their shop is like,
> > Del
> >
> > "m.k." wrote:
> >
> > > Roz
> > > do you know where is BUKO-UNDO company in NYC? This
> > > outfit supplies certain inks used widely in JAPAN. I
> > > am in the area but could not locate the firm.. Any
> > > news will be appreciated..
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> > > http://photos.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > [click here]
> >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> > >
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> > > Marbling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>
Hello, Cynthia -
I will be teaching a one-day class of fabric marbling on February 19th in
New Bern, North Carolina if you are interested in that area of the
southeast. If this is of any interest, please e-mail me and I will give
you particulars.
Monita Mahoney
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:07:08 -0800 "Steve Bryant" <jsbryant@...>
writes:
> Hello, Does anyone know of a class/workshop in the southeast
> region for marbling scarves or other fabrics? I've read books, etc,
> but I'd like the "hands-on" learning. thanks. Cynthia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: peggy skycraft
> To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:43 PM
> Subject: [Marbling] Fix your troublesome size
>
>
> Dear Angela:
>
> I have made thousands of exceptional scarves with very few
> "seconds."
> Believe me, I have suffered through every problem there is.
>
> Try adding Calgon when the problem happens, with the broken
> pattern
> and white spots. (Cherry blossems is my cute name for this.)
> Dissolve
> a tablespoon in hot water and stir half into your marbling bath
> (about
> two gallons of size.) Test the size and if there is still a
> problem,
> add the other part of the dissolved calgon and test again. I
> think
> your problem will be solved. Once you know this, you can add
> Calgon
> (metaphosphate) before you begin marbling.
>
> There are chemical changes when alum gets in the size, but I
> have
> worked for many days makeing hundreds of papers just adding
> fresh size
> and also calgon. I refrigerate the size overnight to avoic
> bacterial
> degradaton, which also causes similar problems. (colors
> breakup.)
>
> Get Calgon (sodium hexemetaphosphate) from Pro Chemica, in
> Massechusetts, or from Rupert,Gibbon in Healdsburg. CA.I find it
> to be
> a true lifesaver. Saves one from throwing away that expensive
> carrageen.
>
> I do not use Spectralite, but usually if there is too much
> dissolved
> acrylic (and the surfaactant that is in it) the problem would be
> that
> the paints may start to sink and not spread ourt.
>
> Dry air is not the problem. I can do good marbling no matter what
> the
> temprature or humidity is.
>
> Water too can be a problem. It should not be acid or too
> mineral.
> Calgon solves this too.
>
> Your tools can be scrubbed with Dutch Cleanser and a nail brush.
> Rinse
> well. One can also use isopropyl alcohol for a quick fix. I do
> not
> think dirty tools is part of your problem if the tools and such
> are
> used just for acrylic. I usually only have to clean everything
> if I
> want to use the setup for watercolor, which is not compatible
> with
> acrylic at all.
>
> Newspaper for skimming is not a problem chemically.
>
> Use not more than 1 tablespoon of alum per cup of water. Silk
> can be
> dipped and then put in the washingmachin spin dryer. This
> allows
> evenly alumed scarves, with less possiblility of alum
> dissolvingf in
> the size.
>
> Lay the scarf down, check that all areas have contacted the
> marbling.
> Remove the scarf immediately and do not allow the gel to drip
> back
> into the marbling tray. I drape them over a plastic pipe and
> rinse
> with gently running warm water from a hose. Do not bucket them
> to
> rinse as there is a good chance of pattern damage.
>
> Yours, Peggy Skycraft
>
> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, DaveorRobin Olson
> <dave1robin@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dear Angela,
> > I also marble some scarves but I don,t think your
> > problen is limited to fabric marbling. I have had this
> > problem both with paper and fabric. I was told it is
> > contamination with alum. You need to clean your tank
> > better between scarves.Always use the directions on
> > the alum pakage to make your alum solution. This very
> > problem came up in a marbling workshop I took this
> > weekend .(paper)and I have given you the instructors
> > response. Good Luck.
> > Robin Olson, Chicago
> > --- Angela Drake <angiedrake@h...> wrote:
> > > The last few times I've marbled, my size becomes
> > > contaminated about
> > > my fifth scarf into a session. It leaves bumpy,
> > > blank spots in the
> > > pattern and makes it very difficult to comb. I use
> > > carrageenan as my
> > > size and Spectralite paints. I had thought that cold
> > > size was the
> > > problem, but no longer. I was marbling outside while
> > > the weather was
> > > good (I live in Nevada, so it lasted a while) but
> > > just moved my work
> > > indoors and am having the same problem and the
> > > temperature is about
> > > 70F. If my tools are contaminated in some way, how
> > > do I clean them?
> > > I have read that I shouldn't use soap as it may
> > > further contaminate
> > > the size. The air here is very dry and we have
> > > almost no humidity,
> > > even in the house. Would this be a factor? Also, I
> > > skim using
> > > newspaper, but always have before with no problems.
> > > Any suggestions
> > > would be helpful as I am running out of ideas and
> > > although I can
> > > marble the scarves twice to lessen the impact of the
> > > flaw, I would
> > > prefer to get a great scarf the first time around. I
> > > make enough
> > > mistakes of my own without having to deal with size
> > > with a mind of
> > > its own. Thanks!
> > >
> > > Angie
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/
>
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>
>
>
>
Hello everyone, i have been a lurker for months, but i finally have a
worthy project. I was wondering if anyone has experimented with
marbling on primed surfaces, mainly wood- i need a surface i can
marble then paint on in oils, i am thinking 1 coat of shellac on
birchwood-if i can find it, 2 coats of gesso on a good wood. any ideas?
~Melinda
To everyone on the list, I want to wish you all a safe and wonderful
Christmas! Have a terrific celebration!
Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks, I will post the results of my experiments
!Merry Christmas!
~Melinda
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, leech541@a... wrote:
> Hello Melinda - Acrylics marble nicely over most brands of acrylic
gesso.
> And Merry Christmas to all!
> tom Leech
Happy day after Xmas -
I just received a message from Milena saying she has had trouble marbling over
acrylic, so i will explain my earlier statement that acrylics work well over
most brands of acrylic gesso. (Milena - thanks for your note and i will write
back off this line about the rest of your letter.)
Here goes: I usually work with Liquitex paints, but have slowly been introducing
Golden acrylics into my work. So far have not noticed much of a difference. Some
Golden colors still seem "iffy" to me, but others are a delight.
I did notice that the more expensive gessoes gave less than the effect i've
wanted, but have had very good luck with a brand called Prima, which i buy by
the gallon because it's often on sale at my local art supply store. I've seen it
all over the country, usually for around 20 bucks a gallon, + or -.
I don't sand or do anything special to the surface other than alum it. I apply
alum with a spray bottle and wipe it even with a sponge. I air dry the sheet (it
won't warp or cockle like a nomal piece of paper will). In humid climates i've
used a blow dryer to speed up drying the alum. (In New Mexico it dries pretty
quickly on it's own.)Depending on how the paper reacts, i gesso both sides of
the sheet.
I get my alum from Colophon in Lacey, WA.
I've also worked with Daniel Smith colored gessoes, and they worked well, altho
that was a few years ago and we all know formulas can change without notice. I
first used the black gesso because i needed a black paper and it was the middle
of the night and no place was open to get black paper. It was a Eureka! moment,
and i've been using gesso as part of my repetoire ever since.
Bear in mind that one of the reasons i use gesso now is that it also allows for
the removal of color up until the time the acrylic dries. So the color is on the
gesso somewhat tenuously at first, but still allows for rinsing if you don't get
too aggressive about it.
One can also add acrylic paint to the gesso to tint it to a desired color. Use
multiple colors of gesso on a sheet and amaze your friends!
Since we are already adding alum to the a paper prior to marbling, what are the
moral/ethical/aesthetic/environmental reasons that keep us from adding gesso
too? I can think of
Like just about everything else having to do with marbling, i can't say why
something works well for one person but not another. Lacking the real need for a
"scientific" explanation, i'm willing to chalk it up to the notion that the
Marbling Gods
take a certain amount of delight in favoring us at some times and playing with
our little heads at others!
That's it in a nutshell. Will be happy to respond to questions and comments. tom
Thanks, Tom!
Next time I'll try "Prima" and no sanding.
I've also found that Golden High Load Acrylics in jars work much
better with marbling on paper and wood. They're rather pricey,
very concentrated, and have to be special ordered from Golden
or through a local supply store. A little pigment thinned with
water goes a long way. I have an affinity for earth tone colors,
and these are incredibly rich and blend well with each other.
Milena
Hello everyone
Just joined the list last night (oh no, not the xmas present?) when I
found you all on a websearch for info about
marbling. You guys sound like a great source of info, and I'm pleased
that Jill was there to sign me up right
away, b/c I"ve been trying this sport out this week and have LOTS of
questions. It seems like an esoteric &
quriky sort of art, marbling.
First off, here's what I've tried: Canson classic cream 80# drawing
paper, methylcel in a photo
tray (washed as thoroly as possible, but maybe some dev/stop/fix
residues?). I was heating it up w/ a heating
pad underneath, but then noticed that Wendy Medeiros said ( Marbling
Techniques book) the size should be
distinclty cold to the touch. Big problem so far is that my acrylic
paints, w/ liquitex flow aid in them, like to
dive=bomb to the bottom. Seems like adding more Flow Aid hepls w/ that
a bit, but I"m wondering if I need to
just make up a new batch of methocel. The first, mixed at the
proportions Madeiros gave---her book is what I
have to go by so far--- of 4c boiling and then 4 c ice water to 4 round
Tbsp methocel seemed too thick s I watered
it down w/ an unmeasured quantity of warm water til it was like thick
maple syrup. Should I make it thicker? It
looks like an air war on the bottom of the tray, so much stuff has sunk.
When I do get a good paint film on the size, the Canson takes it, but a
considerble amount does wash off with the
size, and the linear definition gets lost. ---only way I could get the
size off was to rub it off the sheet gently. So After reading some
posts here about alum, made up an alum bath (4Tbsp alum to 4 c water) &
treated some sheets. Haven't tried them out yet,they need to be
ironed, but ALSO, was reading that alum contaminztion of the size
makes the whole batch stop working. I dipped the sheets, don't like the
idea of spraying it---I have to avoid chemical exosures as much as
possible, am trying this out after finding that photography is too toxic
for me when I tried recently to go back to it. Any suggestions welcome!
My next commenst/questions re the acrylics. Am using mostly more modern
colors, due to toxicity, Golden Quindacridone red light, magenta, gold,
hansa yellow light, blue/ green phthalo, green gold (need to check that
one for toxicity, contains nickel maybe?). Also 3 old Bocour
Iridesents--silver, red and violet, and several of the liquitex
interference shades. It seems to me that in this assortment, there are a
few colors with a bottom tinting strength that overpowers eveything
else---the quinacridones and phthalos. Also maybe the Hansa Yellow.
And,I"m wondering about the physical weight of the pigments---do some
just sink more than others, or does it all depend more on how much flow
aid or water is added?
So I was wondering if I should spend the money for a set of the prepared
marbling acrylics, to enable more
sucessful results w/ the pigment weights and tinting strengths. Is this
so, they're prepared to have less
variation in both? It'd have to be really clear that more balance is
available there for me to spend money on a set
Wanted more subtle color, &to try one really beautiful muted green
pigment I picked up last year---green earth---so tried mixing some dry
earth pigments( Mars plus the siennas, umbers, gold ochre) up in
some no-VOC wall glaze (cellulose, alcoholl estr, silica, carnauba wax,
clay, water, food grade preservative.
The earth pigments don't stay dispersed well in that as a medium, but
they disperse like crazy on the size. The
only thing is, they aren't visible on the paper, nor have any of the
interference or metallic pigments showed up
yet on my sheets. Anyone have info re acrylics---or any lines in any
other media--- that have good earth tones/
interference and metallics that pick up? and with what sort of size or
paper, for a successful start? Has anyone tried mixing ther own paint
from scratch? (interested in tryng powdered caseinalso) I'll need to
get some basic acrylic polymer I guess as the wall glaze sn't going to
work as a medium, at least for beginning experiements.
Thanks for any &all comments/suggestions!
Laurie
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