It is my bias that this will not work......BUT........Since I have never
tried marbling over lacquer, it would not be fair to say it
absolutely...... but my guess is that the lacquer will resist the alum
solution.   If you try marbling a piece - let us know what happens.  It
could be that if you lightly "rough up" the lacquered surface with 600
- or maybe even 1200 grit sandpaper, the alum may have something to
"bite" into.

MELODY BELLOCK wrote:

>  My husbands turns bowls and lacquer them before I had a chance to
> marble.  He uses a clear lacquer.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: del.mary.stubbs
>   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:06 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Marbling] Marbling Wood
>
>
>   I have worked with marbling on wood for many years now - the wood
>   marbling I do is done directly on the wood..  I have never marbled
> over
>   lacquer - but it seems it would be difficult for the alum / marbling
> to
>   adhere to the lacquer.   Can you say why you are wanting to marble
> over
>   lacquer - are you doing this to pre-seal the wood?  Do you mean
> clear
>   lacquer that is used as a finish?......or lacquered bowls such as
>   Japanese lacquer?   If you are doing oil marbling - that would
> adhere to
>   the lacquer.
>
>   melbellock wrote:
>
>   >  I want to marble wood bowls that have been lacquered.  I have
> done
>   > uncoated bowls which I put alum on before marbling, but have never
>
>   > tried lacquered bowls.  Has anyone had any experience with this
> and
>   > any ideas on technique?
>   >
>   > Thanks,
>   > Melody
>   >
>   >
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I thought I should fill this out a bit more....my approach to marbling
on wood, as mentioned below, is to marble directly onto the wood -
meaning - no sealer on the wood prior to marbling.  I have always done
it this way, with good success.

I have been a woodturner for 35 years, so I have a pretty good
understandinf of the properties of wood.  My view is: Just as paper is a
porous surface to print the marbling on - so is wood.  They are both
"pallets" to hold the marbling.  Not all papers work well for
marbling.....the papers that predictably do not work well, are ones that
have some sort of "coating" on them.  Also -  one would not pre-seal the
paper in order to marble.  In some cases there may be reason to use
sanding sealer or shellac on the wood prior to marbling - these
"finishes" have the properties/the ability to have other "finishes"
adhere to them.  I have had various degress of success the few times I
have used sealers prior to aluming and marbling - sometimes, no
problem....other times.....marbling washed off.   Such is the world of
marbling, heh?  There are no absolutes it seems - what works for one,
does not work for another, and what works for you one time, may not work
another!  Keeps us on our toes.......or humble.....depending on the day,
right?  :-)

I'm not trying to discourage you from trying marbling over
lacquer.....mostly wondering if you felt you needed to pre-seal the
wood, or if it was simply a "new thing to try".  If you decide to give
it a try - as mentioned in my previous post, you could try lightly
sanding the lacquer to make the alum and the marbling bite into it.  I
neglected to indicate that it is not easy to go back and even lightly
sand the lacquer so the scratches do not show through - it mostly
depends on how thick the lacquer is.  There are some good cloth backed
abrasives that would be best to use for this application, if you have
access to any of those.  I would stll be concerned, however, of the
longevity of the marbling over the lacquer......even if you did lightly
sand the surface some, I'm not certain that it would be enough to keep
the marbling intact long term.  Seems like it could flake off, unless
you put another coat of lacquer over it.   Hope this helps - Mary Celine
Thouin (Stubbs)

MELODY BELLOCK wrote:

>  My husbands turns bowls and lacquer them before I had a chance to
> marble.  He uses a clear lacquer.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: del.mary.stubbs
>   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:06 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Marbling] Marbling Wood
>
>
>   I have worked with marbling on wood for many years now - the wood
>   marbling I do is done directly on the wood..  I have never marbled
> over
>   lacquer - but it seems it would be difficult for the alum / marbling
> to
>   adhere to the lacquer.   Can you say why you are wanting to marble
> over
>   lacquer - are you doing this to pre-seal the wood?  Do you mean
> clear
>   lacquer that is used as a finish?......or lacquered bowls such as
>   Japanese lacquer?   If you are doing oil marbling - that would
> adhere to
>   the lacquer.
>
>   melbellock wrote:
>
>   >  I want to marble wood bowls that have been lacquered.  I have
> done
>   > uncoated bowls which I put alum on before marbling, but have never
>
>   > tried lacquered bowls.  Has anyone had any experience with this
> and
>   > any ideas on technique?
>   >
>   > Thanks,
>   > Melody
>   >
>   >
>   >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
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>
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>
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>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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I agree with MCS.  Marbling over lacquer is asking for trouble in a
craft with a trillion variances to contend with as it is! Ask your
husband NOT to finish the turned wood before you attempt any
further marbling.  That seems to be the easiest solution!  Trying
to sandwich the marbling between two finishes really doesn't
help the situation either.  Like paper, different wood species will
take to marbling in different ways...open grain, tight grain, soft
and hard woods will all give different results.  Try experimenting
on small pieces until you "perfect" your technique.  Also, poor
marbling on a fine turned wood piece will detract from its beauty.
Color (or lack of strength in color), and lightfastness of the
pigments is also an issue as well as proper patterns for certain
sizes and shapes of wood. MCS is a pro with many years of
experience in BOTH marbling and wood turning.  It takes time
and great patience to do this correctly! -Milena

Is the methylcellulose used for marbling the same as the
methylcellulose in soluble fiber supplements such as Citrucel?

> Is the methylcellulose used for marbling the same as the
> methylcellulose in soluble fiber supplements such as Citrucel?
>
Basically yes.  But, a marbling tray seldom has need of the other
ingredients found in a jar of citrucel!  Methyl cell comes in a variety of
forms, each for different uses.  Little America  (or greater or whatever) is
the largest consumer of methyl cell...they add it to the water in the water
slide ride to make it slippery and faster!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,  I am excited - tomorrow starts a week-long marbling class at
the Appalachian Center for Crafts in Smithville, TN taught by Nancy
Lawrence.  I was able to get registered.  I'm a bit nervous since I'm
really just a beginner.  I will give you updates, as I can.

Cynthia
catdaddytn

Hello,
Could anyone help me baout where I can find
carrageenan to buy in Europe?? (especially in France)
Thank you,
Gozde



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Hello,  Sorry that I didn't get to update you on the marbling class until now. 
It was allot of fun - I learned so much.  Nancy is a great instructor and my
classmates were fun.  There were 7 students, so the small size was nice.

We marbled like crazy.  Several students brought interesting items to marble --
tree bark, all kinds of cardboard pieces, corks, beads and more.  One student
had 15 years of marbling experience.  Others had taken a class before from
Nancy.  My experience was limited, but everyone helped each other.

We used metallic paints which looked great on black paper and green paper.  We
used several patterns and free form style.  We saw slides from the marblers
gathering.

I plan to marble more at home and eventually want to work on cloth.  Does anyone
know of a weekend workshop for marbling on cloth?

We made some books and boxes, along with gift bags, with our marbled paper,
including a star book.  The possibilities are endless.

Over the next couple of weeks, I'll try to get some pictures on the marbling
"group."

Cynthia
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: catdaddytn
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:03 PM
   Subject: [Marbling] marbling in TN


   Hello,  I am excited - tomorrow starts a week-long marbling class at
   the Appalachian Center for Crafts in Smithville, TN taught by Nancy
   Lawrence.  I was able to get registered.  I'm a bit nervous since I'm
   really just a beginner.  I will give you updates, as I can.

   Cynthia
   catdaddytn


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I learned how to marble while in Europe and the person who taught me
used powdered wallpaper paste instead of carrageenan.  It is
inexpensive and easy to find in Germany and in France.  You mix it
with cold water using a whisk and add as much water as needed for the
size.  If you are in France, it is available at Cora but I am sure
that any store carrying hardware supplies would have it.  the brand I
bought came in a yellow box with purple letters (sorry I can't
remember the name).  As with carrageenan, results vary depending on
the weather, temperature, etc. but generally I had good control over
my patterns.  The size does work better the longer it is used.  You
should mix this size the night before you plan to use it.

I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for but I hope it helps.

Angie

--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Gozde Avci <mandukhai_tr@y...> wrote:
> Hello,
> Could anyone help me baout where I can find
> carrageenan to buy in Europe?? (especially in France)
> Thank you,
> Gozde
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com

Hello,  Is it possible to marble on glass?

What is gesso useful for?

thanks.  Cynthia
jsbryant@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings everyone -- Has anyone who attended the most recent gathering and
ordered slides of the show received them?  I sent a check which was canceled a
long time ago, but as yet have not gotten any slides and heard no word about
when they might be sending them.  What's up?  Sincerely, Nelle Tresselt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't have mine either, ordered two sets.
Sent inquiry to Laura Sims, as I read on this site that Nancy
Lawrence has alredy shown them to a marbling class.

I have not received my set of slides either.

Vi Wilson

If a strip of 3M Clear Mailing Tape (self tearing) is placed around
the inner rim of your marbling tray- any pigment residue wipes off
in a breeze!  I've used the same tape hundreds of times and
there does not seem to be any polutant problem in doing so.
Sure makes cleanup a lot easier at the end of the day!

esteemed friends,
Ayla Makas a Turkish marbler ,once apprenticed Hikmet Barutcugil
would like to join this marbling group.
her email address is as follows:

aylamakas@...

please help her !

ps.do people have difficulty marbling in the summertime !
what to do ?
I was told tarraganth is misbehaving in warm weather,


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> ps.do people have difficulty marbling in the summertime !
> what to do ?
> I was told tarraganth is misbehaving in warm weather,
>
  AHA! I just finished a day of work where the most difficult part was trying
not to drip sweat onto the pattern!!  Of, course, when itıs cold the colors
wonıt spread, and when itıs humid, all sorts of quirky things happen.. Good
luck and welcome!  Gail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I will subscribe for you.
Jill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oguzhan Tugrul" <uygur13@...>
To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: [Marbling] help enroll a friend to this group


> esteemed friends,
> Ayla Makas a Turkish marbler ,once apprenticed Hikmet Barutcugil
> would like to join this marbling group.
> her email address is as follows:
>
> aylamakas@...
>
> please help her !
>
> ps.do people have difficulty marbling in the summertime !
> what to do ?
> I was told tarraganth is misbehaving in warm weather,
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Give me under 65 degrees and under 50% humidity for perfect marbling days,
Iris

Galen Berry, is one of the country's best marblers, and one fantastic
marbling 
teacher.   He has just released his schedule of marbling classes for the fall
for the
west coast. 

He will be teaching several five-hour workshops on Paper and Fabric
Marbling. 
Marbled paper can be used for origami, collage, picture framing, bookbinding,

covering boxes, rubber stamping, and just about anything you can think of.  
Marbled cloth (silk or cotton) can be used to make ties, scarves, shirts,
hairbows,
etc.

Coupeville Arts Center (on Whidbey Island) in Coupeville, WA is hosting a
three-day workshop.  They have a wonderful class room.  The class is scheduled
October, 21, 22 and 23, 2003.   Call the Coupeville Arts Center for information
or to register, or go to the webpage online to register.  1-360-678-3396   <A
HREF="http://www.coupevillearts.org/">
Coupeville Arts Center</A>   This is a more in-depth class and will include
working
on larger sheets than those in the beginning classes.

Galen will be teaching various other classes in and around the Portland,
Oregon 
area.   See the list below.

Friday, October 17, 2003
North Clackamas Arts Guild
at the Milwaukie Center  -  in the Oregon Grape Room
5540 SE Kellogg Creek Drive
Milwaukie, OR   97222
Beginning Class   -  Fee is $65.00 (plus an $8.00 materials fee to
instructor)
From 1:00 pm - 6:00 pm
To register, call the Milwaukie Center at  503  653-8100

Saturday, October 18, 2003
First Impression Rubber Stamp Arts Store
4803 NE Fremont
Portland, OR  97213
Beginning Class      -     Fee is $75.00
From 10:00 am - 4:00 pm   (a break for lunch included)
To register, call First Impressions at   503  288-2338
<A HREF="http://firstimpression.net/">http://firstimpression.net</A>


Saturday, October 25, 2003
Art Media Store    (right on the MAX line)
902 SW Yamhill
Portland, OR  97205
Beginning Class     -      Fee is $75.00
From 12:00 (noon) - 5:00 pm
To register, call Art Media at    503  221-3737

Sunday, October 26, 2003
Portland Art Museum   in the Kinney Room - downstairs
1219 SW Park    (Also close to the MAX line)
Portland, OR  97205
Beginning Class    -      Fee is $75.00
From 12:00 (noon) - 5:00 pm
To register, call Portland Art Museum at     503  276-4254

Bring an old towel to class, pen and paper to take notes, and a lunch/snack
if you want one.   Galen will have his marbled papers and all of his marbling
products such as paints, oxgall, alum, carrageenan, marbling tools, broomstraw,
paper, etc. for purchase after class.  He has also written a book that has
been described as the clearest and easiest-to-follow marbling instruction book
of all.

If you are interested in seeing more, check out his webpage at   <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/marbling">
http://members.aol.com/marbling</A>

Thanks, Lorraine Hanson
Stoffeez@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gail

Sometimes changing to spring water from tap water in the size helps
considerably. Alternatively, draw the water and let it sit in the pail
for 24 hours before adding the caragheenan. I use distilled water
consistently in the colours (from Eileen Canning, though Don Guyot
didn't necessarily agree with this).

The bacteria count in summer water may be higher with the result that
they add more chlorine.

There is also the problem of paper drying very quickly in a warm room
resulting in more cockling. I test the RH and humidify if necessary. I
always spray the air before uncovering the vat since I have a problem of
dirt in the air as well as trying to control the humidity. It's also
neat to marble when it is raining out which helps with the RH and the
results are often very nice indeed.

Shelagh Smith

-----Original Message-----
From: Gail MacKenzie [mailto:gailmackenzi@...]
Sent: July 26, 2003 6:40 PM
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Marbling] help enroll a friend to this group


>
>
> ps.do people have difficulty marbling in the summertime ! what to do ?
> I was told tarraganth is misbehaving in warm weather,
>
  AHA! I just finished a day of work where the most difficult part was
trying not to drip sweat onto the pattern!!  Of, course, when itıs cold
the colors wonıt spread, and when itıs humid, all sorts of quirky things
happen.. Good luck and welcome!  Gail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hello everyone
Announcing a one day class on Sept.13,2003
at Otis College of Art and Design, Los Angeles.
Art and Alchemy:Marbling on Silk and Paper.
Jim's lecture includes historical marbling and technical
aspects of preparing paints, chemicals, and surfaces.
Each student will make several silk scarves and papers
suitable for stationary, books or decorative boxes.
Inquiry at 310-665-6850 Otis college
Regards, James Anderson,
textile and surface designer,marbler

Hello there!
IRC channel about marbling has been founded. You can join channel on
dalnet servers, it's name is #marbling.
See you on #marbling.
Murat Türker

Hello there!
IRC channel about marbling has been founded. You can join channel on
dalnet servers, it's name is #marbling.
See you on #marbling.
Murat Türker

for those of you who might be interested in oil marbling,  I have finished
one half of my website:
         www.oilonwater.com

     I do not use linseed oil based colors.   I make my colors with printing
inks plus other oils and solvents

        I hope to have my website complete(or mostly so) in about two months.
   when it is finished,
    come visit me.   Santo Tomas Aquino.  Aquinas---   tomas D'Aquin

         aquinastomas@...

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

The Morton Arboretum in Lisle, IL will offer this workshop which
includes spectacular suminagashi marbling (with some new
techniques).  Please visit www.mortonarb.org for info. and scroll
their fall catalog for this workshop (Sept. 12, 13, 14).

Glad to help!
----- Original Message -----
From: "enigmaticmatrix" <weshabak@...>
To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:57 PM
Subject: [Marbling] How do I stay in this group???


> Hi,
> How do I stay in this group when I have changed my internet
> provider?  I can't get the daily digests anymore.  Can someone please
> help me to change my email address???  Please email me at
> Weshabak@...
> D
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I don't think this new yahoo rule will create problems for readers on this
list--so we shall see:
http://help.yahoo.com/groups/groups-56.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Visit a great web site about Traditional Turkish Ebru Art, by
Alpaslan Babaoglu.

    http://www.geleneksel-ebru.com/english/eng.htm

Would be interested in comments on the site mentioned.
Seems this has all been said, shown, etc., before. Perhaps this
person does not know this???  There are masterful books out
there on traditional Turkish marbling!  However, the site does
open a little window for the novice to peak in.  And I certainly
agree...the words "Traditional Turkish Marbling" have been
abused far too long by authors and marblers alike!

However, I take offense to the statement that using alum is not
marbling. Perhaps not traditional Turksih marbling, but far
superior in results for exceptional marbled images that surpass
what the old masters attempted with minimal materials.  We all
learn from the masters, then branch out to create our own work.
That is what being an "ARTIST" is all about.

Dear Marblers,



I spent a good 45 minutes meandering through the traditional Turkish
marbling website which I found to be an absolute gem on 3 points:



1. While nothing new has been said or done, much was new to me, as
I haven't spent the time in the library researching original documents.
I found he was able to accurately distill important information about
the history, and process of marbling to both the novice and more
experienced marbler like myself.  The information about not using any
alum I interpreted as a historical fact, and not meant as a criticism.
In fact I was wondering when aluming did creep its way into the marbling
process? I would also like to make some horse hair brushes from his
description. Can someone help elaborate on the wrapping procedure as I
can't see the detail in the picture.



2. I found the Alparsian's work to be a delight to behold. Quite frankly
if my work had the color intensity that his work has, I wouldn't bother
with the aluming process either. I however use 20th century acrylics,
and alum my papers. If I have to call myself a marbler as opposed to a
traditional marbler so be it.



2. His website was easy to maneuver through and his Turkish website
translated to English was a feat.



A while back I sent out a query to production marblers as to how many
papers they crank out in a day.  The only response I got was from Iris.
She was going to attempt 70 sheets in the near future.  Iris: did you do
it, and if so how was your back, legs, a mental condition the next day?
Also what kinda of things happen when the temp is above 65% and above
50% humidity?



Carol Scott



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]