Gail, et al:
Some internet setups can get you right there...others not.  Try this:
Type my full name (Milena Hughes) in the Google search engine.  Click
on "Search".  The first item should be the U of Kentucky Book Arts
Weekend.  Scroll to the bottom of this page where you see the line of
additional page numbers.  Click on #7.  When this info comes up on the
screen...scroll to  Marble 1.htm  and link to this site.  It is coming
out of Seoul, Korea.  Don't know if this person is a marbler or not.
The 150 images (besides the "Pros") are quite varied in technique.
Might be a collector.  I can't read the garble...names are in English
and a few other words, but that's it.  Still interesting to view.
Never saw such a vast selection to view on the internet!

I dont see the #7 you mentioned

At 02:46 AM 05-08-2002 -0000, you wrote:
>Gail, et al:
>Some internet setups can get you right there...others not.  Try this:
>Type my full name (Milena Hughes) in the Google search engine.  Click
>on "Search".  The first item should be the U of Kentucky Book Arts
>Weekend.  Scroll to the bottom of this page where you see the line of
>additional page numbers.  Click on #7.  When this info comes up on the
>screen...scroll to  Marble 1.htm  and link to this site.  It is coming
>out of Seoul, Korea.  Don't know if this person is a marbler or not.
>The 150 images (besides the "Pros") are quite varied in technique.
>Might be a collector.  I can't read the garble...names are in English
>and a few other words, but that's it.  Still interesting to view.
>Never saw such a vast selection to view on the internet!
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:)

John Ang Cheng Siew
My Paper Marbling Website: <home3.pacific.net.sg/~johnacs>

--- In Marbling@y..., John Ang Cheng Siew <johnacs@p...> wrote:
> I dont see the #7 you mentioned
>

nevermind, I found the page.

How can I get to the U R L. you have listed below.
  It won't work for me or else I am doing something wrong.

Anne Cheney
Houston, Texas......who will miss being at the marbling gathering.
  This will be my first "miss'. I will be traveling in Vietnam

acheney@...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------------------------
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jake Benson
   To: Marbling list ; Recipients of BOOK_ARTS-L digests ;
bookbinding@yahoogroups.com ; bookbinding-techniques Moderator ;
book-arts@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 2:41 PM
   Subject: [Marbling] Palmetto Book and Paper Alliance


   Greetings everyone,

   I would like to announce the formation of a new Yahoo list , the Palmetto
   Book and Paper Alliance.  It is a forum for residents of South Carolina and
   adjacent regions to share local news and events, supplies, sources, and
   generally network and promote the book and paper arts in the region.  Please
   visit

   www.groups.yahoo.com/group/palmettobookarts

   to joint the list.

   Also pass it along to anyone who you think would be interested.


   Regards,

   Jake Benson


   Benson's Hand Bindery
   Fine Custom Bookbinding & Conservation
   Hand Marbled Papers
   1319 B Summerville Ave.
   Columbia S.C. 29201
   Phone: 803.799.1853
   jemiljan@...





   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please note:  I have copied and pasted this message from another list.
Frank isn't a member of this list, so please respond to him DIRECTLY if you
are interested in getting some papers by the late, great Michel Duval.

Jake Benson


Date:    Tue, 6 Aug 2002 06:40:25 -0700
From:    lehmann1 <lehmann@...>
Subject: Duval Marble Papers for Sale

I have a limited supply of original Michel Duval marble papers for
sale.  Duval is considered by many to have been one of France?s best
marblers.  He passed away about 10 years ago, taking his marbling
secrets with him.  These are original marble papers and not the printed
reproductions currently available.  The price per sheet is US $ 24 plus
shipping.

If you are interested, please email me directly at
lehmann@...  and I will send you three jpeg images of the
patterns.

Frank Lehmann
Lehmann Bindery

--




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jake, about suminagashi with kindergarten and up - It has been part of my art
curriculum for several years.  Until this year I used speedball ink and
assorted acrylics and photo flo dispersant with varied success. This past
year, I used the boku inks with much more consistant results.
As someone has already mentioned, that horrible cheap manilla paper really
works quite well. If your budget allows, also use Diane's Rice paper. I gave
the students the manilla first and then the delicate rice paper later in the
session. The rice paper was harder for the younger students to handle but the
colors on the rice paper are more vivid.
The younger students (kindergarten - second grade) have trouble controlling
the the bamboo brushes and the ink. This past year, I gave them pencils to
dip in the ink and placed the ink in baby food jars. Each color ink had its
own color of pencil  - blue pencil - blue ink. I also limited the colors.
Beginning with black and dispersant and slowly adding additional colors- up
to three - black, blue and red.
I set the classroom up with two students to a tank (large plastic containers
from Wal-mart). I have taught up to 24 students at one time using this
method.- many classes are kindergarten.
Suminagashi is a great marbling project for students - it is not expensive,
it introduces them to marbling, and they love it. Good luck!

Not quite sure what some of you are teaching the young ones.
Please! If you are teaching suminagashi...DO IT RIGHT and don't insult
the many generations of the revered Hiroba family.  Getting the colors
to float on water does not mean that it is "suminagashi".  Even some
of the most exquisite current book samples are (much) more
contemporary versions of this ancient craft.  Perhaps, at such a young
age, these students should be taught basic "Marbling on Water" (or
Marbling 101?) rather than calling it suminagashi.  I'm thinking that
the technique is REALLY GETTING WATERED DOWN, and doesn't, in the
least, resemble true suminagashi.  Treat yourselves to a fine example
of this exquisite Japanese paper by ordering a lovely sheet from
Aiko's Art Materials and Supplies in Chicago (USA).  Aiko Nakane (now
retired) was the first person to import Japanese papers in the USA
many, many years ago.  The shop is at 3347 N. Clark Street, Chicago,
IL, 60657 (773.404.5600), a treat to visit...a "must" if you come to
the windy city!...filled with treasures beyond description when it
comes to handmade Japanese papers.

By the way, a pad or roll of Sumi-e, or Shoji paper is quite
reasonable at most art supply stores.  Students of oriental brush
painting use it all the time.  The Shoji is stronger and can be
handled with ease.  Some sumi-e rolls have long fibers in the pulp and
this prevents tearing when wet.  Handmade Japanese papers have enabled
me to create scrolls that are five to seven feet long.  The papers
often look very delicate, but are actually quite strong.  Papers made
in India and Thailand also work well and are a little more reasonable
in price. These are usually large sheets and can be cut down to fit
small trays.

I have been teaching suminagashi for about eighteen years, only after
getting my papers approved by Aiko.  There is much interest at ALL age
levels, and I'm currently instructing a summer class in delicately
beautiful "advanced suminagashi" (students must already know the
basics).  The oldest participant is 80 years young.  It is her third
class and she hasn't missed one session of it!  How wonderful it would
be if a few of the "wee" ones out there continue to learn for many
more years.  Who knows, with much encouragement...perhaps a new
"Master" might emerge!  Keep introduc

Hello everyone,

This announcement made it's way to the BookArts_L and I though I would post
it here.  I have no idea who is involved in this particular venture.  Would
any of our Turkish colleagues be able to tell us more about this intriguing
"Akademi"?  I went to the web site, which was entirely in Turkish, and found
no references to these courses.  Hence, I have no idea who the "specialized
professional teachers" are....

Belki Türk arkadeslaramiz  daha anlamak vereceksiniz?  Cevapiniz
bekleyoruz....  Lütfen cevap Ingilizce dilide "marbling list" ile
yazicaksiniz...



Akademi Istanbul, a private art and communication school situated in
Istanbul, Turkey will  be providing traditional Turkish handcraft course
programs  for the branches listed below, in the 2002-2003 educational year.
These courses will also be opened in English for the incoming foreigners by
specialized professional teachers.


Traditional Turkish Handcraft Course Programs

Hat             (Traditional Turkish and Islamic Calligraphic Painting )
Miniature       (Traditional Turkish and Islamic Painting)
Tezhip          (Traditional Turkish and Islamic Book Decorating Art)
Ebru            (Traditional Turkish and Islamic Paper Decorating Technique)
Mosaic          (Ancient and Traditional Mosaic Decorating Technique)


We wish to contact all the museums and art schools which are organising this
kind of art and craft education programs in your country. Would you please
let us know whether  this information could reach all of the members of your
association and interested art schools. In case this is not the way could
you send us the email addresses we need. We are looking forward to hearing
from you as soon as possible.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Semih Ozkan
General Art Consultant
Of Akademi Istanbul
Temel Egitim <temelegitim@...>
--




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would like to express a hearty "Thank You!" to everyone who has responded
to my query about marbling in the primary and secondary school classroom.
This sort of discussion makes this list so worthwhile!  It is a real
pleasure to be able to benefit from all the combined experience that others
have to offer.  I only wish that we may have heard back from a broader
audience, such as individuals on the list living in Japan and Turkey for
insight into their teaching methods in a classroom setting.  I know that
Turkish students are often taught ebru in secondary school, but it is
certainly an altogether different affair from studying with a master hoca...
I also want to be clear that I was asking about teaching in this SPECIFIC
setting, and not about what one would do for a workshop for adults.  It is
easy to take the time in an adult workshop to grind my sumi sticks on a
suzuri  ink -stone and give the participants the benefit of the "full
experience".   I can also justify using a simpler approach in a different
context.

I do agree with part of what Milena has mentioned: it is important to
distinguish what we are doing, and if we are veering from what are
considered "traditional methods".  For instance, if I am to give a short
presentation about suminagashi, I'd show historic examples such as the 12th
century Sanjuroku nin Kashu, the 16th century Tale of Genji in the Freer
Gallery of Art, and the lovely fan-shaped lotus sutra from the Shitenno-ji
Treasure house in Osaka (Ann Chamber's Suminagashi- pp 18-19- it is unique
in that the marbling is an element of a painting, rather than the usual
calligraphy of waka poems).  I would also briefly mention marbling accounts
from historic texts, such as the "liu sha chien" or "drifting-sand
notepaper" mentioned by the 10th century Chinese scholar Su I-Jian, as well
the early waka poems that mention suminagashi.  I would also bring along a
couple of examples from my own collection of suminagashi papers from Japan.

THEN I would delve into the technique used in the class, being very cautious
to distinguish if it differs from a traditional method or not.  Even using
Boku Undo kits seems very contemporary to my mind, and it should be
mentioned.  I might bring along my ink sticks, ink stone, traditional
brushes, and handmade papers to SHOW- (to illustrate the "Four Treasures of
the Scholar's Studio) but not necessarily USE.  These examples help the
student to understand the difference between the time honored "traditional"
approach and the "quick and dirty" method used that day in class.  Taking
the time to show a few historic images to the "wee ones" gives them a
greater sense of how marbling is used in an historic context, and shouldn't
be shied away from as being "boring": it only enhances their understanding.
I believe it is possible to convey this information even if the specific
techniques used in the class aren't EXACTLY traditional-  And I would make
very sure the students understand that!

The same goes for a demonstration of traditional water-based marbling.
Fortunately, historical European accounts on marbling offer clear
descriptions of the techniques they used.  If I were to demonstrate using
acrylics on methyl cellulose, I would mention that these are modern
materials that yield somewhat different results.  I wouldn't call using
methyl cell and acrylics "Ebru" and have them believe that they are doing
something truly historic, for that is misleading.  Opening the demo with a
few illustrations such as the engravings from the Encyclopedie Diderot et
d'Alembert, and providing some historic examples to look at would take only
a  few minutes and cement in the student's minds what something historic
looks like.  THEN go into the demo noting the differences in techniques used
in the class from the older ones.


So in short,

Mention that the paints are MODERN, the paper is MACHINE MADE, and admit
that it is something different...AFTER giving a short historical overview.
That should be sufficient enough to distinguish what's done inside the
classroom from the greater historical context.  I think if the instructor
proceeds in such a manner, they are able to effectively teach a class,
without "diluting" the methods of past masters.  If someone would like a
purely "traditional" class, then that can be saved for another day as an
"advanced" topic.  Using the simpler and easier methods described by those
who responded to my query is a valuable example of how to get "feet wet" in
an introductory sense, without offending the complex sense of "tradition".
So many of my workshop students have told me that they are surprised to
learn so many historical facets of marbling.  It only enhances the
experience.  Maybe it is only "Marbling 101", but they have to start
somewhere.  I also have to deliver something on a budget, a large number of
students, and time constraints.

Get them interested and excited, and then bring out the "traditional"
methods when they are ready.  I think it's all in how you present the topic,
not in the specific technique used on that particular day.  Trying to get a
room full of children through the process is tough enough....  but a good
presentation can head off a lot of misunderstandings....

I think we have touched on a sub-topic here:

Can we accept that the art evolves?  Would techniques and materials also
develop as part of that evolution?  Well certainly, it does.  Our
understanding of marbling has greatly increased due to modern innovations,
and historical investigations.  Once again, The example of Christopher
Weimann comes to mind.  He was very devoted to understanding traditional
methods, but he also developed the use of acrylics and methyl cellulose
mixed with carragheen for size.  Josef Halfer discovered a method of
preserving carragheen , making it his preferred size for marbling,  and
manufactured colors using "new" pigments.

Today, these may seem "traditional", but at that time, these were new,
innovative, and exciting developments.  Really, you could say this is true
of all marbling throughout history, around the world.  The tradition is
really the establishment of a regular, even regimented approach based on
what had been an innovation.  Tradition is really an innovation that is
found to be successful and becomes respected.  In the end, when you take a
close look, the tradition HAS evolved, and the Modern approach owes its very
existence to the Tradition approach.  Are these really opposing forces?
rivals? or is it a MUTUAL Process...   I like to think the latter is the
case....

In Turkey today, most of the ebruculer use a SYNTHETIC indigo pigment
(lahuri çivit), as the true indigo made from the indigo plant is expensive
and difficult to obtain (though I will admit that many do not know this, and
purport that they are using "real indigo" and continue to refer to the
lahuri çivit  as "toprak boya", loosely translated as "natural
material").... They also use primarily machine made papers.  Most pigments
are bought from a store, and no longer prepared directly from natural
sources.  All of these elements have evolved over time to meet the needs of
craftsmen.  Still,  the debate over "tradition vs. modern" roils on!  It
seems a HUGE waste of time in view of these little facts.  I've not even
touched on the issue of what constitutes contemporary  "Klasik Ebru" and if
it really represents what Europeans first admired in the 16th and 17th
centuries...

All of this is to our benefit... and understanding these nuances is very
helpful when teaching in any situation.  Conveying these simple differences
requires little effort and is easily comprehended even by the most "wee" of
minds... If the technique I use on that particular day is "diluted" then, so
be it!  But at least my students would understand the difference....

Jake Benson


Benson's Hand Bindery
Fine Custom Bookbinding & Conservation
Hand Marbled Papers
1319 B Summerville Ave.
Columbia S.C. 29201
Phone: 803.799.1853
jemiljan@...





--




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A lot of great points, Jake. I think the tradition MUST evolve...but we
should REMEMBER the old ways too, and use as needed.

I feel, especially as a paint maker, that if you find something that works
better....USE it. I feel the old-timers would have used the improved
materials too, had they known about them.

The decision to no longer use indigo was a hard one. I would still make up
indigo marbling paints in bulk if requested, but the stuff RUBS soooooo
badly.  I have spent nearly 25 years trying to develop watercolor marbling
paints that have little to no rub. This is so important when your papers
are geared towards bookbinding. That is where nearly all of mine end up.
The offsetting can ruin a rare book. Yes, you can spray them with fixative
after....but it's a bit time consuming and toxic to have to do this to over
100 papers a week. So I have my "Navy". it's not the same, but close, and
doesn't cause trouble.

Things like this....I think it's important to evolve in the tradition,
materials wise, while still keeping a traditional looking product.

Iris Nevins

Jake and Iris have truly studied past traditions and also delve into
what is available in materials and possibilities today.  They are a
rare breed in the "glut" marbling market of "If it's porous, we'll
marble it.  Who cares what it looks like, because we really don't know
the difference and either do the buyers."  I have seen beauty to cry
over and the worst stuff ever imaginable as well.  Listen to these
marblers....present your work (through demos, teaching, sales, etc.)
in the best possible way...through research, personal study and hard
work. Be recognized for your EXCELLENCE in the craft and read
carefully the following advice:

"BEWARE!
Beware! Those who pretend to teach without knowledge & ignorant
themselves.  For they will encourage the Master's wrath to follow and
exclude them for eternity from the ring of true profession.
Beware! The effects they produce being sufficient to impress only a
novice.  Though meager in creativity, they are strong of willful
foolishness and waste.  Beware!  There is a novice fool soon to be
unleashed to the masses.  Beware! I warn you as the evening bell tolls
there will be a pretender among you.  Beware!  Is it you?  Beware!"

I give this verse to all my beginning students.  It has stopped
several in their (teaching) tracks and they have eventually thanked me
for it. Others coul

>
>
> "BEWARE!
> Beware! Those who pretend to teach without knowledge & ignorant
> themselves.  For they will encourage the Master's wrath to follow and
> exclude them for eternity from the ring of true profession.
> Beware! The effects they produce being sufficient to impress only a
> novice.  Though meager in creativity, they are strong of willful
> foolishness and waste.  Beware!  There is a novice fool soon to be
> unleashed to the masses.  Beware! I warn you as the evening bell tolls
> there will be a pretender among you.  Beware!  Is it you?  Beware!"
>
> Well,  since this came in just as I am in the middle of writing  an outline
> summary of the demonstrations I will be giving at Arrowmont in a few weeks, I
> must say it caused a bit of uncertainty.  ³Ask not for whom the bell
> tolls....²



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know who wrote the post "BEWARE", but thanks for the compliments to
myself and Jake!

Anyway, while I don't consider it such a crime as implied, a lot of people
do take one or two workshops and then teach, and have a lot of problems.
Even the most experienced teachers have problems, embarrassing ones, right
in the middle of a demo or class.

It is very hard to take marbling out of the environment you are used to
....you just cannot expect it to behave in the same ways. Marbling is even
quite unpredictable in your own studion from one season to the next, from
one day to the next.

There are two attitudes towards marbling as I see it.....one is to really
study and immerse oneself in the tradition, which has been one of my
greatest satisfactions in life.....or one can do it for fun. There is
nothing wrong with that either. Marbling is really fun to do with your
kids, just let the paints fly and be amazed at the results.

marbling seems to make people happy, even on a really superficial level,
and that os OK too. Sometimes I just long for those days again...when I was
just starting out. Sometimes....often....marbling is a very tedious job, no
fun at all. I get requests often for non-traditional papers I would never
dream of making. I just marbled 560 of the same paper in two weeks! I don't
ever want to see that paper again!!

Next week I will be thankfully putting orders aside and shall make the
papers I am hoping to bring to IMG. That will be fun. Need to just go back
to the 1820's for a while and immerse in tradition!

Iris Nevins
www.marblingpaper.com

> I don't know who wrote the post "BEWARE", but thanks for the compliments to
> myself and Jake!
>
> Anyway, while I don't consider it such a crime as implied, a lot of people
> do take one or two workshops and then teach, and have a lot of problems.
> Even the most experienced teachers have problems, embarrassing ones, right
> in the middle of a demo or class.
>
>
Thank you, Iris, for such a sensible response.  Just as several years ago,
when a ³marbling tribunal² to rank and judge was proposed, you stepped in
and added a modicum of good common sense.  Again, looking forward to the
conference...tolling bells or not!  Gail


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks again Milena, for your insightful posting (and generous kudos)!  I'm
not sure if anyone I have ever taught has gone on to hang out their shingle
and teach.  I think that by bombarding them with historic samples and
images, as well as slides of contemporary work, the students get the
picture.  I always tell them that they need to take some time to develop
what they're doing, and to investigate evidence for themselves.

I must admit that I'm still embarrassed over comments I may have made 5-10
years ago.  There are so many points and bits of historical information in
sore need of revision, which are unfortunately very appealing, pervasive,
and extremely popular.  I certainly helped to perpetuate many of these
notions, for I believed everything that I was told, and more importantly I
WANTED to believe certain things about marbling.  However, when you try and
collect and compile information, you have to set what you want to believe
aside, and let the evidence tell the story for itself.  This is why I'm
putting together a database to help catalog and compile all these tid-bits
of info.

So let me relate an event that happened THIS WEEK in my quest.  I was going
to save this for the Gathering, but I think it should be shared with
everybody on the list.

For starters, I wanted early manuscript sources in the original languages,
not only translations.  Among other texts I want the CHINESE version of the
Wen Fang Si Pu.  So, I ordered it through interlibrary loan, got it, but
don't read Chinese.  So, I was referred to Ms. Nancy Tomasko, editor of the
East Asian Journal at Princeton University to identify the passages in
question.  Ms. Tomasko is an excellent resource and teacher of Chinese
bookbinding (this year she's teaching at Penland and The NY Center for Book
Arts).  I asked her to take a look at the original Chinese text of the Wen
Fang Si Pu, which as it turns out is a COMPILATION (Nancy refers to it by
the more scholarly term "Collectania" ) written by the Imperial Scholar Su
Yi-Chien in the 10th century.  The subjects that Su Yi-Chien wrote about are
culled from other sources.  While it makes reference to several types of
marbling (including floating color on a bath thickened with flour or locust
beans), we still haven't found the ORIGINAL source for the entry!  So we
still have something to look for....

The Wen Fang Si Pu garnered attention when it was mentioned in:

Tsuen-Hsuin, Tsien, Paper and Printing from Part 1, Volume 5, Chemistry and
Chemical Technology , Science and Civilisation in China, Needham, Joseph.
Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1985

By the way, Tsien is pronounced simply "Chen".  Dr. "Chen" unfortunately did
not make a literal translation of the text in question.  He gave a short
"synopsis".  Well, many writers since that time  (including myself) have
treated Dr. Chen's synopsis as a translation.  There are many ambiguities in
what Dr. Chen related.  The transliteration standard he used is different
from that used today.  Please note the spelling changes in this email, as
this is how it should be properly transliterated today.  Dr. Chen's text was
also made more confusing by his inclusion of 19th century decorated paper
samples that are not necessarily the result of the marbling process
mentioned in the text.  Despite this, we still owe an awful lot to Dr. Chen
for drawing attention to the passage in the first place.

The very first thing that Nancy told me is that the entries about marbling
are mentioned in the 3rd "juan"- meaning roll, scroll, and "Chapter", which
is about paper: regional methods, materials, colored, block-printed,
stencilled, cut etc etc.  Within the 3rd "juan" the entries come under a
heading about decorated papers in the province of "Shun".  "Shun"
corresponds to Modern-day SZECHUAN (!!!)  Dr. Chen relayed this little tiny,
fascinating, and important fact, but only at the beginning of his passage,
before mentioning the passage about marbling.  So it was easy to miss- but
boy do I feel silly for not seeing it in the first place!  Nancy also adds
something to what Dr. Chen wrote- that another type of marbled paper is
called "net" paper... as the design looked like a net.  She also revises the
tranlation of "Drifting -sand notepaper" as t is possible to confuse things
and think that "Drifting Sand" refers to the Taklamakan desert in the north
etc etc.  "Flowing Sand" is also an acceptable translation.

So- did marbling originate in the SZECHUAN region?  Now we have to look and
see if there is any evidence from that time which can relate to the text.
There has been such an emphasis on the Silk Road, Central Asia, and recently
Xinjiang, that we have failed to look beyond those boundaries.  All of this
has been based on speculation, fueled by rumor, then mistakenly crystallized
into a "fact" in the minds of many marblers.  I think that the Silk Road was
an important CONDUIT- as trade happened amongst many different peoples, from
different racial, ethnic, and religious backgrounds for CENTURIES.  The Silk
Road was a "two lane highway" after all.  It is probably true that marbling
techniques went west VIA the Silk Road.  But did it originate there as some
have proposed?  Can we consider the Su Yi-Chien  as a credible source?
Well, the way I see it, we need to check his sources too.

I also now hope that at the event planned for Xinjiang, that participants
will be kind enough to highlight this important reference.  Nancy is
visiting China in the fall, and hopes to lean more about contemporary
decorative paper making....  Interestingly enough, I tried to email Oghuz
Han Tughrul at uygur13@... about this information, but it has bounced
back.  Does anyone have a current email for Oghuz Han?  I'm sure he'd like
to know this little tid-bit and about Nancy's work....

In many ways, I might think that what I'm trying to do is something similar
to what Su Yi-Chien did.  A database is a tool for compiling information.
I'm really not a scholar- in this case I owe it all to Nancy.  We need to
work with scholars when we do research and make historical claims.  Nancy
isn't a marbler, and wouldn't have thought to look at the text if I hadn't
mentioned it.  The practitioners of the craft play an important roll in
getting the qualified professional to look at these references and
substantiate what is in them.  It is also important to verify translations,
as this has been some interesting and creative liberties taken in some
instances.  I can't tell you how many times I've run into this problem.
Checking your source is an important part of scholarship- it NEVER hurts.

Now I get to write Dr. Chen!  and revise my summary and lecture for the
gathering....

This never seems to end!  I'm always excited, surprised, and amazed at the
complexity of the subject.  It only keeps getting  more complex, but also
CLEARER  with time.   It also helps to use words like "perhaps" when
discussing theoretical points in marbling history, lest someone get the
wrong idea and come to believe that the theory mentioned is a fact...  I
certainly wished I used it more often 5-10 years ago....

Jake Benson







Benson's Hand Bindery
Fine Custom Bookbinding & Conservation
Hand Marbled Papers
1319 B Summerville Ave.
Columbia S.C. 29201
Phone: 803.799.1853
jemiljan@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Marbling Enthusiasts...

I agree that someone who has just learned how to marble should not go out
and offer their services as a marbler instructor.  It takes quite of bit of
experience to pass on the art of marbling.  The biggest asset is knowing
what to do when things "just don't work" and how to correct and solve the
numerous marbling quirks.

I also have been fascinated by the history of marbling as much as the
execution itself.  When I first started (1976) there was next to nothing
written about the process, no "how-to" books available.  You learned from
someone else and then tried to perfect the methods yourself.  I was
fortunate enough to be working in a college library and had access to inter
library loans.  I borrowed every book I could find (there weren't many) and
one that had been written in the 1800's gave a recipe for oxgall.  I can't
remember the exact quote, but it started with the statement that "you should
find yourself a friendly butcher who would save you the gall bladder of a
recently butchered steer..."  I could just see me going into my local
Safeway store and making such a request!

This brings up the next point.  How authentic do we need to be to preserve
the true art of marbling?  For years I boiled and strained Irish Moss to
make my size.  Authentic, yes, but straining through panty hose (very
effective, by the way) is hardly historically correct!  Needless to say,
once blender carrageen became available I never boiled another batch of
Irish Moss.  Early marblers grinded their own pigments, I purchase marbling
inks already made.  I also use acrylics, which are not historically correct.
If someone out there wishes to make their own colors, there is a store in
San Francisco which sells pure pigments.  You can view their web site at
www.sinopia.com

In 1984 I was in London and went to the Victoria and Albert Musuem.  In
their rare book department they had listed marbled papers from Douglas
Cockerell.  I asked if I could see them, and was surprised when I was given
permission.  All I had to do was provide identification.  For some reason my
California driver's license was sufficient!  Anyway, they brought out a box
with about 10 samples.  At first I was disappointed because the colors were
so dull, as compared with current marbling.  But then I realized I was
holding history in my hands and was a bit overwhelmed.  It was at this point
in time I began to appreciate the traditional marbling patterns and not be
dazzeled by the wild colors and abstract marbling patterns that some people
do.  These modern patterns have their place, and I appreciate their
creativity, but I am still drawn to the traditional.  I love creative
marbling, I just hope that the traditional will always be around as well.

It was also on this trip that I contacted Sydney Cockerell and he generously
allowed me to visit him at his home/studio outside of Cambridge.  I was
still rather new to marbling and didn't realize what an honor was bestowed
upon me.  I watched one of his assistants marbling (the French Boquet
pattern) and afterwards I bought a set of his marbing inks and he personally
wrote up the receipt, which I still have (I keep meaning to frame it!).

Well, I'll get off my soap box for now.  I'm glad we have this forum to vent
our opinons.

d. guffey

Hi Jake, I guess I'm writing to everyone, but to answer your question about
Oz's email... Oz returned to Istanbul last Saturday (8/3) after spending six
weeks in the states.  He was in Washington representing Turkey as a glass
artist in Washington DC at the Silk Road Folk Life Festival (check out
website -- it was an amazing event).  He spent the last two weeks of his
stay at my house in Danbury, CT, with several side trips including one to
Boston to visit Elaine Koretsky, who is an  accomplished paper maker and
devoted documenter of the history of paper making.  I don't mean to
digress -- I believe his email is just temporarily not in service.  The
address at this point has not changed, but hopefully he will be back online
soon and you should be able to reach him.  No doubt, he will be most
interested in what you have learned about the possibility of marbling
originating in Szechuan and I look forward to his comments.  My immediate
response is, why not?  However, I also feel that marbling probably
originated in several geographic locations simultaneously (and we do know
there are many places where marbling WASN'T).  But it is too basic a concept
and at the same time too sacred for any one group to claim it.  It's like
trying to claim God. Searching for the oldest documented information is like
unraveling the most wonderful and amazing treasure ball.  It keeps pulling
you in deeper and deeper until you know you are at the source of a mystical
thing.  I appreciate all the information you are sharing with us and look
forward to meeting you at the Gathering.  Sincerely, Nelle (Tresselt)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jake Benson" <jemiljan@...>
To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 9:56 PM
Subject: [Marbling] Beware = Being Aware....


> Thanks again Milena, for your insightful posting (and generous kudos)!
I'm
> not sure if anyone I have ever taught has gone on to hang out their
shingle
> and teach.  I think that by bombarding them with historic samples and
> images, as well as slides of contemporary work, the students get the
> picture.  I always tell them that they need to take some time to develop
> what they're doing, and to investigate evidence for themselves.
>
> I must admit that I'm still embarrassed over comments I may have made 5-10
> years ago.  There are so many points and bits of historical information in
> sore need of revision, which are unfortunately very appealing, pervasive,
> and extremely popular.  I certainly helped to perpetuate many of these
> notions, for I believed everything that I was told, and more importantly I
> WANTED to believe certain things about marbling.  However, when you try
and
> collect and compile information, you have to set what you want to believe
> aside, and let the evidence tell the story for itself.  This is why I'm
> putting together a database to help catalog and compile all these tid-bits
> of info.
>
> So let me relate an event that happened THIS WEEK in my quest.  I was
going
> to save this for the Gathering, but I think it should be shared with
> everybody on the list.
>
> For starters, I wanted early manuscript sources in the original languages,
> not only translations.  Among other texts I want the CHINESE version of
the
> Wen Fang Si Pu.  So, I ordered it through interlibrary loan, got it, but
> don't read Chinese.  So, I was referred to Ms. Nancy Tomasko, editor of
the
> East Asian Journal at Princeton University to identify the passages in
> question.  Ms. Tomasko is an excellent resource and teacher of Chinese
> bookbinding (this year she's teaching at Penland and The NY Center for
Book
> Arts).  I asked her to take a look at the original Chinese text of the Wen
> Fang Si Pu, which as it turns out is a COMPILATION (Nancy refers to it by
> the more scholarly term "Collectania" ) written by the Imperial Scholar Su
> Yi-Chien in the 10th century.  The subjects that Su Yi-Chien wrote about
are
> culled from other sources.  While it makes reference to several types of
> marbling (including floating color on a bath thickened with flour or
locust
> beans), we still haven't found the ORIGINAL source for the entry!  So we
> still have something to look for....
>
> The Wen Fang Si Pu garnered attention when it was mentioned in:
>
> Tsuen-Hsuin, Tsien, Paper and Printing from Part 1, Volume 5, Chemistry
and
> Chemical Technology , Science and Civilisation in China, Needham, Joseph.
> Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1985
>
> By the way, Tsien is pronounced simply "Chen".  Dr. "Chen" unfortunately
did
> not make a literal translation of the text in question.  He gave a short
> "synopsis".  Well, many writers since that time  (including myself) have
> treated Dr. Chen's synopsis as a translation.  There are many ambiguities
in
> what Dr. Chen related.  The transliteration standard he used is different
> from that used today.  Please note the spelling changes in this email, as
> this is how it should be properly transliterated today.  Dr. Chen's text
was
> also made more confusing by his inclusion of 19th century decorated paper
> samples that are not necessarily the result of the marbling process
> mentioned in the text.  Despite this, we still owe an awful lot to Dr.
Chen
> for drawing attention to the passage in the first place.
>
> The very first thing that Nancy told me is that the entries about marbling
> are mentioned in the 3rd "juan"- meaning roll, scroll, and "Chapter",
which
> is about paper: regional methods, materials, colored, block-printed,
> stencilled, cut etc etc.  Within the 3rd "juan" the entries come under a
> heading about decorated papers in the province of "Shun".  "Shun"
> corresponds to Modern-day SZECHUAN (!!!)  Dr. Chen relayed this little
tiny,
> fascinating, and important fact, but only at the beginning of his passage,
> before mentioning the passage about marbling.  So it was easy to miss- but
> boy do I feel silly for not seeing it in the first place!  Nancy also adds
> something to what Dr. Chen wrote- that another type of marbled paper is
> called "net" paper... as the design looked like a net.  She also revises
the
> tranlation of "Drifting -sand notepaper" as t is possible to confuse
things
> and think that "Drifting Sand" refers to the Taklamakan desert in the
north
> etc etc.  "Flowing Sand" is also an acceptable translation.
>
> So- did marbling originate in the SZECHUAN region?  Now we have to look
and
> see if there is any evidence from that time which can relate to the text.
> There has been such an emphasis on the Silk Road, Central Asia, and
recently
> Xinjiang, that we have failed to look beyond those boundaries.  All of
this
> has been based on speculation, fueled by rumor, then mistakenly
crystallized
> into a "fact" in the minds of many marblers.  I think that the Silk Road
was
> an important CONDUIT- as trade happened amongst many different peoples,
from
> different racial, ethnic, and religious backgrounds for CENTURIES.  The
Silk
> Road was a "two lane highway" after all.  It is probably true that
marbling
> techniques went west VIA the Silk Road.  But did it originate there as
some
> have proposed?  Can we consider the Su Yi-Chien  as a credible source?
> Well, the way I see it, we need to check his sources too.
>
> I also now hope that at the event planned for Xinjiang, that participants
> will be kind enough to highlight this important reference.  Nancy is
> visiting China in the fall, and hopes to lean more about contemporary
> decorative paper making....  Interestingly enough, I tried to email Oghuz
> Han Tughrul at uygur13@... about this information, but it has bounced
> back.  Does anyone have a current email for Oghuz Han?  I'm sure he'd like
> to know this little tid-bit and about Nancy's work....
>
> In many ways, I might think that what I'm trying to do is something
similar
> to what Su Yi-Chien did.  A database is a tool for compiling information.
> I'm really not a scholar- in this case I owe it all to Nancy.  We need to
> work with scholars when we do research and make historical claims.  Nancy
> isn't a marbler, and wouldn't have thought to look at the text if I hadn't
> mentioned it.  The practitioners of the craft play an important roll in
> getting the qualified professional to look at these references and
> substantiate what is in them.  It is also important to verify
translations,
> as this has been some interesting and creative liberties taken in some
> instances.  I can't tell you how many times I've run into this problem.
> Checking your source is an important part of scholarship- it NEVER hurts.
>
> Now I get to write Dr. Chen!  and revise my summary and lecture for the
> gathering....
>
> This never seems to end!  I'm always excited, surprised, and amazed at the
> complexity of the subject.  It only keeps getting  more complex, but also
> CLEARER  with time.   It also helps to use words like "perhaps" when
> discussing theoretical points in marbling history, lest someone get the
> wrong idea and come to believe that the theory mentioned is a fact...  I
> certainly wished I used it more often 5-10 years ago....
>
> Jake Benson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Benson's Hand Bindery
> Fine Custom Bookbinding & Conservation
> Hand Marbled Papers
> 1319 B Summerville Ave.
> Columbia S.C. 29201
> Phone: 803.799.1853
> jemiljan@...
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Thanks for the post, Dolores.....I too remember those days. I had NO ONE to
teach me in 1978 and would have appreciated ANY instruction no matter how
crude. I had a xerox of that same book,(think it was Woolnough) and DID go
to my local butcher and got a quart of bile....he thought I was mad!

I nearly blew up the bottle of gall ....it builds up gases, and the load
pop I heard when I opened the jar two weeks later, not to mention the
stink....well, just a funny memory now.

I get my best Stormont using plastic sqeeze bottles....very traditional,
right? To give them up would be like going from a washing machine back to a
scrub board. The old timers would have jumped at the chance to have our
modern materials and methods.

The part of maintaining tradition I do feel is important, is to arrive at
the same look, as closely as possible, not matter how you get there. The
old papers were amazing....and my main thing is the period from the 1600's
though late 19th century. I come to this from a love ob books, so what was
seen on the bindings is my orientation. I do artwork too with marbling, but
just love getting the room filled with papers that look like the 1820's.

The bulk of my work is recreating these papers for book restorers, matching
as well as possible, the old papers.

Iris Nevins

Thank you, Jake.  I am looking forward to your lecture!!  Best wishes, Gail
M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am so delighted to be able to be a part of this group and eavesdrop on the
superstars  of marbling.  I have a favor to ask of you.  I have studied twice
at Arrowmont with Mimi Schleicher.  Both times were wonderful experiences.  I
am now getting anxious to be able to do this work on my own, in my own
locale.  So, I am writing a grant to have Mimi join me at a local artists'
retreat so that she can guide me in my early stages in my own environment.

I know that many of you slugged it out in your own kitchens with very little
assistance.
However, if I can avoid the heartache and take advantage of other lessons
learned, I am going to go for it.  The favor I would like to ask of any of
you who would be willing is to write a sentence or two explaining why
studying with a mentor in my own environment would be advantageous.  I fear
that the grants panel won't understand why a few "how to" books, a video and
my past Arrowmont experience shouldn't be enough to get me started.  I am an
artist but I also have a more than full-time job as an arts administrator.
This is the first time I have written a grant to benefit me personally.  It
would be so wonderful to get it.  I am trying to make the best of my
resources - financial and time.

If any of you have words of wisdom that I could share with the panel, you
could respond to me personally or to the group.  Many thanks, in advance.

Debbie
jazzcatsclifton@...

Hello Debbie,  This may sound a bit silly, but I know it to be the absolute
truth.  Successful, professional high quality marbling results depend not
only upon the artist and the pigments.  Humidity, barometric pressure and
temperature besides water quality are important variables.  You have to be
able to master  and understand the variables in your own environment before
you can successfully expand.  Best wishes,  Gail MacKenzie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debbie-  I wish you the best in applying for a personal grant!
It is extremely difficult if you are requesting a "personal"
environment.  I have been on several grants panels.  Your own
financial situation and the fact that you have a job elsewhere means
nothing. Mimi's credentials rate high, but you are applying for
personal instruction ...which rates "0".  It is the same as a healthy
student applying for a personal home tutor.  (A marbling environment
can change with the fickle weather, your own temperament, etc.)  We
have given grants for a person to take a special workshop for artistic
advancement in a specified field of endeavor, but never for a "Master"
to personally teach a novice.  That is not a sound basis for a grant.
Please post your application results as your request is quite
interesting.

My own struggle was helped with several workshops...the rest was up to
me.  It was a major time and career shift to focus on marbling.  You
don't sound as if you want this enough to change your lifestyle and
will still have NUMEROUS problems to solve no matter how and where you
continue your marbling studies.

Norma Rubovits once said to me that the personal stuggle is what makes
a good marbler into an exceptional one.  None of us have been as
fortunate as Mimi to have our mother teach us!  She is truly blessed
and must be a joy to Patty!  A

I concur with other postings to the list.  The best teacher is what you
experience in your own particular/peculiar environment.  It is wonderful to
have a mentor, as I did/do in Don Guyot, but the bottom line is he was
not/is not  there every time I marble/d; he could not see the problem I was
having and in the end it was up to me to find the solution. It is also true
that those things learned the hard way, are what you remember the best, and
they are also the most rewarding.
Good luck!

Vi Wilson

-I agree with Vi, who has been my invaluable mentor for the past
three years.  It helps greatly to have someone to discuss your
marbling with - someone who can make suggestions and observations,
but the art of  marbling is a process, something that evolves
gradually. Even the most highly skilled marbling teacher such as Mimi
can only teach what you can absorb in a given time. The process of
marbling seems to me to be more of practice, observation, study and
help from others who are more skilled, rather than one of
concentrated tuition. I wish you well in your endeavours to obtain a
grant, and would be interested to hear how you progress if you do
succeed. For some reason I regard marbling as somewhat arcane, with
elements of chance and mystery, so for me the journey is far more
fascinating than the end results.  Joan Ajala-- In Marbling@y..., "V.
Wilson" <rondelay@a...> wrote:
> I concur with other postings to the list.  The best teacher is what
you
> experience in your own particular/peculiar environment.  It is
wonderful to
> have a mentor, as I did/do in Don Guyot, but the bottom line is he
was
> not/is not  there every time I marble/d; he could not see the
problem I was
> having and in the end it was up to me to find the solution. It is
also true
> that those things learned the hard way, are what you remember the
best, and
> they are also the most rewarding.
> Good luck!
>
> Vi Wilson

Hi All,

In case anyone is interested, I just got a call from Martha Stewart Living TV
telling me that the show which includes my segment on suminagashi marbling
will re-air tomorrow at 9AM on Channel 2 in New York.  In PA we get it at 10
AM on ABC.

Regards,
Diane Maurer
www.dianemaurer.com

Hi Diane,
You did a fabulous job on Martha's show.  Do you know that you were also on
Carol Duvall's HGTV show this morning. Between the 2 shows, you'll be well
known everywhere! Best wishes.
jacki harrington

Thank you Jackie!  I had no idea that both shows were airing today.  The
Carol Duvall show is about four years old.  I've been swamped with e-mails
and phone calls all day. I guess Martha is still doing okay!  By the way, she
was filmed a few times before she got the color application to look so
smooth....

Best,
Diane

Diane,

Is there a remote possibility of this show being available somewhere on the
internet. I do not reside in the US and the programme is not aired here.

At 07:36 PM 8/26/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>In case anyone is interested, I just got a call from Martha Stewart Living TV
>telling me that the show which includes my segment on suminagashi marbling
>will re-air tomorrow at 9AM on Channel 2 in New York.  In PA we get it at 10
>AM on ABC.
>
>Regards,
>Diane Maurer
>www.dianemaurer.com
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:)

John Ang Cheng Siew
My Paper Marbling Website: <http://home3.pacific.net.sg/~johnacs>

I can't believe I missed the whole thing!  I was at work.  Do you know if it
will air again on either show?  If so, please let those of us who missed it
know!
Donna


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,

Thanks to those of you who wrote to say they enjoyed the suminagashi or paste
paper shows. Unfortunately the T.V. shows rarely let me know when they are
re-airing.  Martha Stewart Living called at the last minute...Carol Duvall,
Martha Stewart Living and Home Matters all re-air the shows I did with them
from time to time.  Their websites may have info, I'm not sure.  If I get any
advance notice I'll post a message.  My segment is only about 10 to15 minutes
long, so it is not an indepth look at suminagashi.  It's a little frustrating
too, to have to limit the information I can give.  Most of it has to be in
response to the host's scripted questions.

Sorry John, I'm sure the shows are not shown online.

Best regards,
Diane