Hi, John,
I use the Boku-Undo inks that I get from Diane Maurer for sumi.  Her recipe
calls for 1 teaspoon of ink to one drop of Photo-Flo.  The recipe for the
dispersant for sumi is 1 teaspoon of water to one drop of the Photo-Flo.  I have
also used successfully the waterproof calligraphy inks - I think Dr. Ph Martin's
is one brand, but they must be the waterproof ones, or they just disperse into
the water. I would also mention that too much Photo-Flo will cause paints to
sink, and I use it only with acrylics and the above mentioned sumi techniques.  
There is a happy medium using it.  I often have better luck if I dilute the
Photo-Flo with distilled water - sorry - I don't have a recipe for that!
  Caryl Hancock, Indianapolis


-----Original Message-----
From: John Goode <watermarktile@...>
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 12, 2009 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [Marbling] Photo- flo source








Thanks Sue!
I have a big bottle I bought fresh at a photo supply store.
I cant get it to work with my inks....my pigments must be to heavy even
bought a ball mill to help mill them down.
There is this vision of a porcelain tile with sumi high fired in a wood
kiln.
Anyone have  Sumi recipie for inks?
Thanks John

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:44 AM, artsycole <akartisan@...> wrote:

>
>
> For the person who was looking for the water dispersant for suminagashi
> work, this is the best source i have found for Photo Flo.
>
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photo+flo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes
>
> it's getting harder to find since most people have gone to digital cameras
> these days.
>
> HTH
> Sue
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John,
 
I am only aware of the Kodak brand.

Carole A. Floate
CF Turnings
200 W. Witchwood Lane
Lake Bluff, IL 60044
P 847-295-2631
F 847-295-2675

--- On Thu, 11/12/09, John Goode <watermarktile@...> wrote:


From: John Goode <watermarktile@...>
Subject: Re: [Marbling] Photo- flo source
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 8:49 AM


Carole
At first search nothing poped up.
I have only seen one brand and that is the Kodak...
Is there more than one type or manufacturer.
Thanks John

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Carole Floate <cfloate@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> Another source for Phot Flo is the following
>
> www.calumetphoto.com
>
> Carole A. Floate
> CF Turnings
> 200 W. Witchwood Lane
> Lake Bluff, IL 60044
> P 847-295-2631
> F 847-295-2675
>
> --- On Thu, 11/12/09, John Goode
<watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> From: John Goode <watermarktile@... <watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Marbling] Photo- flo source
> To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 8:23 AM
>
>
> Thanks Sue!
> I have a big bottle I bought fresh at a photo supply store.
> I cant get it to work with my inks....my pigments must be to heavy even
> bought a ball mill to help mill them down.
> There is this vision of a porcelain tile with sumi high fired in a wood
> kiln.
> Anyone have  Sumi recipie for inks?
> Thanks John
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:44 AM, artsycole
<akartisan@...<akartisan%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > For the person who was looking for the water dispersant for suminagashi
> > work, this is the best source i have found for Photo Flo.
> >
> > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photo+flo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes
> >
> > it's getting harder to find since most people have gone to digital
> cameras
> > these days.
> >
> > HTH
> > Sue
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carole
  At first search nothing poped up.
I have only seen one brand and that is the Kodak...
Is there more than one type or manufacturer.
Thanks John

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Carole Floate <cfloate@...> wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> Another source for Phot Flo is the following
>
> www.calumetphoto.com
>
> Carole A. Floate
> CF Turnings
> 200 W. Witchwood Lane
> Lake Bluff, IL 60044
> P 847-295-2631
> F 847-295-2675
>
> --- On Thu, 11/12/09, John Goode
<watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> From: John Goode <watermarktile@... <watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Marbling] Photo- flo source
> To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 8:23 AM
>
>
> Thanks Sue!
> I have a big bottle I bought fresh at a photo supply store.
> I cant get it to work with my inks....my pigments must be to heavy even
> bought a ball mill to help mill them down.
> There is this vision of a porcelain tile with sumi high fired in a wood
> kiln.
> Anyone have  Sumi recipie for inks?
> Thanks John
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:44 AM, artsycole
<akartisan@...<akartisan%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > For the person who was looking for the water dispersant for suminagashi
> > work, this is the best source i have found for Photo Flo.
> >
> > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photo+flo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes
> >
> > it's getting harder to find since most people have gone to digital
> cameras
> > these days.
> >
> > HTH
> > Sue
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,
 
Another source for Phot Flo is the following
 
www.calumetphoto.com


Carole A. Floate
CF Turnings
200 W. Witchwood Lane
Lake Bluff, IL 60044
P 847-295-2631
F 847-295-2675

--- On Thu, 11/12/09, John Goode <watermarktile@...> wrote:


From: John Goode <watermarktile@...>
Subject: Re: [Marbling] Photo- flo source
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 8:23 AM


Thanks Sue!
I have a big bottle I bought fresh at a photo supply store.
I cant get it to work with my inks....my pigments must be to heavy even
bought a ball mill to help mill them down.
There is this vision of a porcelain tile with sumi high fired in a wood
kiln.
Anyone have  Sumi recipie for inks?
Thanks John

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:44 AM, artsycole <akartisan@...> wrote:

>
>
> For the person who was looking for the water dispersant for suminagashi
> work, this is the best source i have found for Photo Flo.
>
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photo+flo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes
>
> it's getting harder to find since most people have gone to digital cameras
> these days.
>
> HTH
> Sue
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Sue!
I have a big bottle I bought fresh at a photo supply store.
I cant get it to work with my inks....my pigments must be to heavy even
bought a ball mill to help mill them down.
There is this vision of a porcelain tile with sumi high fired in a wood
kiln.
Anyone have  Sumi recipie for inks?
Thanks John

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:44 AM, artsycole <akartisan@...> wrote:

>
>
> For the person who was looking for the water dispersant for suminagashi
> work, this is the best source i have found for Photo Flo.
>
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photo+flo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes
>
> it's getting harder to find since most people have gone to digital cameras
> these days.
>
> HTH
> Sue
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For the person who was looking for the water dispersant for suminagashi work,
this is the best source i have found for Photo Flo.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photo+flo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

it's getting harder to find since most people have gone to digital cameras these
days.

HTH
Sue

know of a marbling teacher willing to work individually in St Paul Mpls area?

Gum arabic has been the standard watercolor paint binder for centuries - at
least for watercolor painting it is still considered the finest binder.  I would
expect that your paints would work for marbling.  If you have just mulled the
pigment with the binder, a good starting point would be 1/4 tsp paint (assuming
it is in paste form) mixed with 1 tbsp water.  Add gall to give the desired
buoyancy and spread on the size.  When I initially started making my own paints
I followed the directions for binder given in Mayer's Artist Handbook (2 ounces
gum in 4 ounces water).  This worked fairly well. I have also tried gum arabic
with gum tragacanth as recommended by Joseph Halfer, fish glue, and what I
currently use:  a combination of gum tragacanth and hide or rabbit skin glue. 
This last combination was recommended by Halfer as being the best binder, and I
agree. It gives a smooth paint that floats well, allows for clean, thin, lines
(thin lines with gum arabic tend to break or become grainy). I have not had the
problems with paint adhesion that other marblers have had and I wonder whether
the binder is the reason.  After many years of experimentation, I have come to
believe that the binder is as important as the pigment in making a good
watercolor marbling paint.  Making the paint, at least as I do it, then is a
fairly standard process of adding binder to dry pigment with any other additives
that are part of the recipe (I add wax) and mulling until you have a smooth
paste.  Its a bit labor intensive, can take a while to get comfortable with the
process, and there is an outlay of cost for pigments, but the results, and the
control it allows you over the marbling process make it very worthwhile.  If you
are already making your own paints for illumination you are probably pretty
familiar with the process and what you are doing should be applicable to
marbling. However, being new to marbling, I would encourage you to try first
with paints made for marbling so you have some basis for comparison with your
paints.  Otherwise you will have difficulty determining whether a problem is
with your paint or the marbling process and all its variables.
Garrett Dixon

Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "jehannettedelille" <lady_blueshift@...> wrote:
>
> I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar
with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments
work?  Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases?  Please talk more about the
paints?
>
> --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there
is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes
out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty.
Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling
day.
> >
> > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier
time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out
there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out
of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that
either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other.
There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the
other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it.
Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint
making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most
pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical
and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each
other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done
yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that
works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint
formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each
pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
> >
> > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using
paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual
marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced
marbler to test the paints.  I know if used as instructed my paints will work,
Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our
own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so
little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a
year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great,
yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results,
then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And
worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not
using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade
materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most
were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in
pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops
of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out
of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce,
but you got so much mileage per ounce!  I do have my store bought pet favorites
though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric.
Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and
not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will
work in a new batch!
> >
> > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan,
whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working
marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the
archives, or you can get books they wrote.
> >
> > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate
marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
> >
> > Iris Nevins
> > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@>
> >   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
> >   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
> >   Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
> >
> >
> >   Iris and all thanks!
> >   I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight
pure
> >   lines.
> >   I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
> >   time.
> >   What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
> >   Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
> >   well...20 years?
> >   I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
> >   Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
> >   Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
> >   people to use it.
> >   Marbling is fine art!
> >   John
> >
> >   On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins
<irisnevins@<mailto:irisnevins@>> wrote:
> >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
> >   > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also
easy
> >   > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work,
Hard
> >   > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
> >   > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work,
with
> >   > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just
the
> >   > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed
to
> >   > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long
way
> >   > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it
goes
> >   > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
> >   >
> >   > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use
all
> >   > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
> >   > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
> >   >
> >   > Iris Nevins
> >   >
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com\
%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
> >   > ----- Original Message -----
> >   > From: John
Goode<mailto:watermarktile@<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@%3Cwa\
termarktile%40gmail.com>>>
> >   >
> >   > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> >   > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
> >   > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
> >   > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
> >   >
> >   > Hi All
> >   > I will say it again and again....
> >   > C A R R A G E E N A N
> >   > is the best I have found!
> >   > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
> >   > marbling....
> >   > Is it just me?
> >   > John Goode
> >   > watermarktile.com
> >   >
> >   > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt
<jcpratt@<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
> >   > <mailto:jcpratt@<mailto:jcpratt@> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
> >   >
> >   > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
> >   > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
> >   > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
> >   > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
> >   > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
> >   > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
> >   > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
> >   > >
> >   > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
> >   > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
> >   > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
> >   > >
> >   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
> >   > <
> >   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
> >   > >
> >   >
> >   > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
> >   > >
> >   > > Carol
> >   > > Eugene, OR
> >   > >
> >   > > =====
> >   > >
> >   > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
> >   > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
> >   > >
> >   > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
> >   > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
> >   > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
> >   > > >
> >   > >
> >   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
> >   > <
> >   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
> >   > >
> >   >
> >   > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
> >   > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
> >   > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
> >   > > >
> >   > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
> >   > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
> >   > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
> >   > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
> >   > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
> >   > > >
> >   > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
> >   > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
> >   > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
> >   > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
> >   > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
> >   > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
> >   > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
> >   > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
> >   > > >
> >   > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
> >   > > > source.
> >   > > > Sue
> >   > > >
> >   > > >
> >   > > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > > ------------------------------------
> >   > >
> >   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   > >
> >   >
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >   >
> >   > ------------------------------------
> >   >
> >   > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >   >
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >
> >
> >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >   ------------------------------------
> >
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Making marbling paint is a very delicate balance of all things. There is no one
formula. Also most pigments are not marbling friendly or compatible with each
other when floated. All you can do is try, it may or may not work. It is
basically a watercolor or gouache type mix. Done on a small scale it is
sometimes cheaper to buy the paints, so if this is about saving money, it may
not be cost effective. If you want to do it for fun and satisfaction that is
another story. It can be kind of an adventure really.

You can check artist's manuals for such recipes and try them. It's a very long
study though as applied to marbling paint, I think I started about 25 years ago
and still have a lot to learn about the chemical and physical natures of the
pigments, which come to life when floated on water.

About acrylics, I don't use them unless doing fabric, which may be 1-2 times a
year. You can get more variety in the interesting historical patterns with the
watercolors, plus I never got the real old book paper look I love with acrylics,
even the ones I made myself! My orientation is historic replication of early
designs, so I tweak my paints to be able to do that. Many prefer the bright or
pastel colors that may be better done with acrylics. The Watercolors too, they
are only about 90% colorfast when dry unless you wax and polish or use a
fixative. Most of my customers never use anything and they are fine. If wet they
don't run, but could be smeared with wet hands. I would wax and burnish any
papers ont eh outside of a book though, or at least use a non-workable fixative.

Iris Nevins
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jehannettedelille<mailto:lady_blueshift@...>
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:42 AM
   Subject: [Marbling] Re: new source for mc -3rd try


   I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar
with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments
work?  Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases?  Please talk more about the
paints?

   --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins"
<irisnevins@...> wrote:
   >
   > Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there
is a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes
out better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty.
Not inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling
day.
   >
   > I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier
time of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out
there. Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out
of sheer frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that
either failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other.
There was one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the
other colors. No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it.
Even gouache, if it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint
making is a really quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most
pigments won't work anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical
and physical properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each
other. I have been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done
yet! And I stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that
works with any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint
formula". It's like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each
pigment. It's is very complex really, and can be confusing.
   >
   > So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using
paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual
marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced
marbler to test the paints.  I know if used as instructed my paints will work,
Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our
own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so
little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a
year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great,
yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results,
then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And
worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not
using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade
materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most
were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in
pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops
of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out
of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce,
but you got so much mileage per ounce!  I do have my store bought pet favorites
though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric.
Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and
not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will
work in a new batch!
   >
   > All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan,
whether with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working
marblers are using, they mention these items many times over and over in the
archives, or you can get books they wrote.
   >
   > OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate
marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
   >
   > Iris Nevins
   >
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com\
%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
   >
   >   ----- Original Message -----
   >   From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile<mailto:watermarktile>@...>
   >   To:
Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogr\
oups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
   >   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
   >   Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
   >
   >
   >   Iris and all thanks!
   >   I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight
pure
   >   lines.
   >   I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
   >   time.
   >   What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
   >   Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
   >   well...20 years?
   >   I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
   >   Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
   >   Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
   >   people to use it.
   >   Marbling is fine art!
   >   John
   >
   >   On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins
<irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins<mailto:irisnevins@...%3Cmailto:irisnevins>@...\
>> wrote:
   >
   >   >
   >   >
   >   > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
   >   > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also
easy
   >   > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work,
Hard
   >   > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
   >   > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work,
with
   >   > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just
the
   >   > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed
to
   >   > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long
way
   >   > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it
goes
   >   > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
   >   >
   >   > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use
all
   >   > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
   >   > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
   >   >
   >   > Iris Nevins
   >   >
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com\
%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblin\
gpaper.com/%3Chttp://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>>
   >   > ----- Original Message -----
   >   > From: John
Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@..\
.%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.c\
om%3Cmailto:watermarktile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>>
   >   >
   >   > To:
Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogr\
oups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
   >   >
Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogr\
oups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>> <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
   >   > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
   >   > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
   >   >
   >   > Hi All
   >   > I will say it again and again....
   >   > C A R R A G E E N A N
   >   > is the best I have found!
   >   > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
   >   > marbling....
   >   > Is it just me?
   >   > John Goode
   >   > watermarktile.com
   >   >
   >   > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt
<jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcp\
ratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org%3Cmailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>>
   >   >
<mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cmailto:jcpratt>@...>
<jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
   >   >
   >   > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
   >   > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
   >   > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
   >   > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
   >   > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
   >   > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
   >   > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
   >   > >
   >   > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
   >   > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
   >   > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
   >   > >
   >   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?Clie\
ntID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.\
cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>>
   >   > <
   >   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?Clie\
ntID=15&ProductID=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.\
cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=18375>>
   >   > >
   >   >
   >   > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
   >   > >
   >   > > Carol
   >   > > Eugene, OR
   >   > >
   >   > > =====
   >   > >
   >   > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
   >   > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
   >   > >
   >   > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
   >   > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
   >   > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
   >   > > >
   >   > >
   >   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http\
://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http:/\
/www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>>
   >   > <
   >   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http\
://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<http:/\
/www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>>
   >   > >
   >   >
   >   > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
   >   > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
   >   > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
   >   > > >
   >   > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
   >   > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
   >   > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
   >   > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
   >   > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
   >   > > >
   >   > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
   >   > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
   >   > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
   >   > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
   >   > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
   >   > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
   >   > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
   >   > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
   >   > > >
   >   > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
   >   > > > source.
   >   > > > Sue
   >   > > >
   >   > > >
   >   > > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > > ------------------------------------
   >   > >
   >   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   > >
   >   >
   >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >   >
   >   > ------------------------------------
   >   >
   >   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >   >
   >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >   >
   >   >
   >   >
   >
   >
   >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   >   ------------------------------------
   >
   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >




   ------------------------------------

   Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm a total N00b in marbling, but an experienced illuminator...so am familiar
with the watercolor pigment theory...will my home-made gum arabic based pigments
work?  Or are you mostly using the acrylic bases?  Please talk more about the
paints?

--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is
a place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out
better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not
inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.
>
> I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time
of it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there.
Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer
frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either
failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was
one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors.
No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if
it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really
quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work
anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical
properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have
been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I
stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with
any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's
like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's
is very complex really, and can be confusing.
>
> So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using
paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual
marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced
marbler to test the paints.  I know if used as instructed my paints will work,
Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our
own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so
little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a
year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great,
yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results,
then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And
worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not
using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade
materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most
were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in
pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops
of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out
of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce,
but you got so much mileage per ounce!  I do have my store bought pet favorites
though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric.
Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and
not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will
work in a new batch!
>
> All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether
with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are
using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you
can get books they wrote.
>
> OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate
marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.
>
> Iris Nevins
> www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
>   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
>   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
>
>
>   Iris and all thanks!
>   I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
>   lines.
>   I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
>   time.
>   What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
>   Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
>   well...20 years?
>   I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
>   Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
>   Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
>   people to use it.
>   Marbling is fine art!
>   John
>
>   On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins
<irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:
>
>   >
>   >
>   > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
>   > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also
easy
>   > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work,
Hard
>   > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
>   > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
>   > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just
the
>   > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed
to
>   > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
>   > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
>   > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
>   >
>   > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use
all
>   > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
>   > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
>   >
>   > Iris Nevins
>   >
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com\
%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: John
Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarktile@..\
.%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
>   >
>   > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
>   > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
>   > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
>   >
>   > Hi All
>   > I will say it again and again....
>   > C A R R A G E E N A N
>   > is the best I have found!
>   > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
>   > marbling....
>   > Is it just me?
>   > John Goode
>   > watermarktile.com
>   >
>   > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt
<jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
>   > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
>   >
>   > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
>   > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
>   > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
>   > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
>   > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
>   > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
>   > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
>   > >
>   > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
>   > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
>   > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
>   > >
>   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
>   > <
>   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
>   > >
>   >
>   > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
>   > >
>   > > Carol
>   > > Eugene, OR
>   > >
>   > > =====
>   > >
>   > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
>   > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
>   > >
>   > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
>   > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
>   > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
>   > > >
>   > >
>   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
>   > <
>   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
>   > >
>   >
>   > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
>   > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
>   > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
>   > > >
>   > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
>   > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
>   > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
>   > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
>   > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
>   > > >
>   > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
>   > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
>   > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
>   > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
>   > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
>   > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
>   > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
>   > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
>   > > >
>   > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
>   > > > source.
>   > > > Sue
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > ------------------------------------
>   > >
>   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   > ------------------------------------
>   >
>   > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------------
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Oh John... it is the MOST serious work I have ever done, and that's an
understatement. If you work as a marbler, it literally becomes a lifestyle, it's
not just a job. But I love it, you have to or you'd quit with all the many
little problems...and big one, like papers not working much at all anymore.
Don't let me get started on that again... will sign off now!
Iris Nevins
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:29 AM
   Subject: Re: [Marbling] $$carragheen$$


   Susanne
    Yes there is materials, labor, studio expenses and others that go into the
   final price of the work being sold.
   One must have set prices in order to make it.If you decide to do this for a
   living then read up on the current prices and stick with it.People expect
   terms up front then there are no what ifs or extras.If terms scare off a
   client then they were not a client at all.
   Marbling is serious work!
   John Goode

   On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:00 AM, susanne martin
<alavee15@...<mailto:alavee15@...>> wrote:

   >
   >
   >
   > Shouldn't the price of the materials (and then some) be covered by what
   > people pay you for the products?
   > __________________________________________________________
   > Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live.
   >
   >
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=\
200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11\
,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergree\
n2:112009<http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbi\
d=wl&filt=200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7\
,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WI\
N_evergreen2:112009>
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ------------------------------------

   Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susanne
  Yes there is materials, labor, studio expenses and others that go into the
final price of the work being sold.
One must have set prices in order to make it.If you decide to do this for a
living then read up on the current prices and stick with it.People expect
terms up front then there are no what ifs or extras.If terms scare off a
client then they were not a client at all.
Marbling is serious work!
John Goode

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 7:00 AM, susanne martin <alavee15@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Shouldn't the price of the materials (and then some) be covered by what
> people pay you for the products?
> __________________________________________________________
> Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live.
>
>
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=\
200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11\
,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergree\
n2:112009
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shouldn't the price of the materials (and then some) be covered by what people
pay you for the products?
_________________________________________________________________
Find the right PC with Windows 7 and Windows Live.
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/pc-scout/laptop-set-criteria.aspx?cbid=wl&filt=\
200,2400,10,19,1,3,1,7,50,650,2,12,0,1000&cat=1,2,3,4,5,6&brands=5,6,7,8,9,10,11\
,12,13,14,15,16&addf=4,5,9&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergree\
n2:112009

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I haven't been able to get to a computer in a few days and I see that I've
stirred up a hornets nest without meaning to.  First, I had changed my email
over to gmail and hadn't fixed it in yahoo groups and that's why it wasn't going
thru - that's why it said 3rd try.

One person told me it's like comparing Fords and Chevys - some people like mc
and some people like carageenan or caragheenan for various and sundry reasons. 
I have used both and like both and have even mixed them together when I was
short and wanted to keep going.  I used liquid starch (like for clothes) when I
was first starting, so as one person says , use what works and what you can get.
What I liked about this new mc was you didn't have to use the ammonia in it.  I
have had the carageenan go bad in a short time, so was using the mc in the
summer to do the scarves.

Believe it or not, it was 90 here for most of a month in July and I was working
outside in a tent, so the mc was working better because of the heat factor.  It
worked and rinsed out fine for me on the scarves and bandannas.  You can also
mix it thicker and use it for glue or paste paper, so it serves more than one
purpose for me.

For paper and things where you want finer lines, the carageenan is supposed to
be better.  The cargeenan that I use, I bought from Diane Maurer and it's
supposed to be the same kind that is used by Colophon books supply.  I have also
bought supplies from her.

I have yet to find gum tragacanth, so cannot speak about how that works, but
would like to try it someday, just out of curiosity.

I have a tremor, so have trouble doing several of the combed designs, so the
free form, as I call them, designs work better for me on the scarves and
bandannas and people seem to like them.

Surprisngly though to me, I have been able to do ebru work and am still working
to get better at it - meaning flowers and mountains and things.

Hope this finds everyone well and happy and that you are doing great work today.
Peace,
Sue Cole
Fairbanks, AK

Nelle and Glenda and all..
  You are both correct. I have been known to stir up debate here.I do need to
try my new inks on all mediums to make sure I do not miss some fun. Use what
you can when you can its just marbling there are so many ways to do it that
one is not right. I always hear the MC question here and my first thoughts
are skip it try traditional ways esp when its always I tried Dharmas MC and
its yucky.That way people can get results like us marblers that have found
what works.The best marbler is the one inside you or that does not know what
else there is to compare to.They are top of their game and thats what makes
them there...having results that make you happy.
  So elitist I am not, just saying try some other means..I am up for some
sumingashi if my inks will float and fire up to 2250, still working on that
dispersing agent that works on water?
Thanks for the input
John Goode

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Ellen Tresselt <ntresselt@...> wrote:

> Since when does marbling boil down (no pun intended) to only
> carageenan or methyl cellulose?  What happened to gum tragacanth?  I
> thought that was the "real" "traditional" size material, even though
> essentially no one in the United States is using it.  Iris, you have
> said yourself that historically people have used what was available
> to them at the time/era in which they were working and that had
> marblers one or two hundred years ago had the choices available to us
> today, no doubt they would have taken full advantage of whatever they
> could lay their hands on!  There is more than one style of marbling
> -- duplicating historical techniques is just one approach.  I think
> this discussion becomes ridiculous after awhile and can have the
> effect of intimidating those in the learning process or making those
> of us using one size material or the other feel defensive or
> embarrassed.  The key here for newbies is learning process -- doing
> the research to become informed about the wide array of different
> materials and techniques, deciding what style of marbling appeals to
> you, experimenting with different materials, seeing what is realistic
> and practical (what you can afford and obtain easily), working it out
> until you achieve the results that meet your own personal standards
> and deciding for yourself what you can be satisfied with!  Many
> people new to marbling want a magic formula to eliminate all the
> bumps in the road and become accomplished marblers after only a few
> hundred tries.  Well kids, it's a real bumpy road.  If you're like
> most, you many need a few hundred thousand tries.  That's just how it
> is.  But I would honestly say, do not get hung up about MC or
> carageenan and let that spoil it for you.  There is no wrong or right
> here.  One is not superior to the other and people with different
> skills are able to achieve excellent results with one or the other.
>
> Nelle Tresselt
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Glenda Kirkiridis wrote:
>
> > You know, it's all very well saying Carageen is the way to go.
> > Maybe in
> > countries like the States and most European countries but here in
> > South
> > Africa, carrageen costs an arm and three legs - if you can find it and
> > people actually know what you are talking about. Yes, we can get
> > food grade
> > carrageen but at an enormously inflated price and, sorry, fine art
> > or not,
> > MC is the easier to find and the less expensive by far. We have
> > identified a
> > very good MC which is a tenth of the price of the Carrageen and
> > have found
> > it very easy to mix and use. Given that we get through about 300
> > litres of
> > size a week when we are in production, you can understand that
> > carrageen is
> > not an option for us.
> >
> > Alum is another thing that costs an arm and a leg as we can only get
> > pharmaceutical grade alum here. If I could find a substitute I would.
> >
> > Pigments? We use what we can find. It's pointless trying to bring in
> > expensive good quality marbling paints from the States or U.K. By
> > the time
> > you have paid the freight costs and duties- yes there are huge
> > duties on
> > non- essentials-you have products that are not viable in production.
> >
> > Pigment base? This created a few headaches for us given that most
> > acrylic
> > bases in South Africa are water based. We eventually found a base
> > that was
> > white spirits based and this is the one that works for us.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Glenda in South Africa
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

However you choose to spell it, if you want reliable results with marbling, use
carragheenan!  That's what I marble paper, silk, cotton, leather, wood with. 
Always suggest it to my students!  Use what works for you, but if you are
experiencing problems, switch to carragheenan & be more successful with results.

Since when does marbling boil down (no pun intended) to only
carageenan or methyl cellulose?  What happened to gum tragacanth?  I
thought that was the "real" "traditional" size material, even though
essentially no one in the United States is using it.  Iris, you have
said yourself that historically people have used what was available
to them at the time/era in which they were working and that had
marblers one or two hundred years ago had the choices available to us
today, no doubt they would have taken full advantage of whatever they
could lay their hands on!  There is more than one style of marbling
-- duplicating historical techniques is just one approach.  I think
this discussion becomes ridiculous after awhile and can have the
effect of intimidating those in the learning process or making those
of us using one size material or the other feel defensive or
embarrassed.  The key here for newbies is learning process -- doing
the research to become informed about the wide array of different
materials and techniques, deciding what style of marbling appeals to
you, experimenting with different materials, seeing what is realistic
and practical (what you can afford and obtain easily), working it out
until you achieve the results that meet your own personal standards
and deciding for yourself what you can be satisfied with!  Many
people new to marbling want a magic formula to eliminate all the
bumps in the road and become accomplished marblers after only a few
hundred tries.  Well kids, it's a real bumpy road.  If you're like
most, you many need a few hundred thousand tries.  That's just how it
is.  But I would honestly say, do not get hung up about MC or
carageenan and let that spoil it for you.  There is no wrong or right
here.  One is not superior to the other and people with different
skills are able to achieve excellent results with one or the other.

Nelle Tresselt



On Nov 8, 2009, at 8:52 AM, Glenda Kirkiridis wrote:

> You know, it's all very well saying Carageen is the way to go.
> Maybe in
> countries like the States and most European countries but here in
> South
> Africa, carrageen costs an arm and three legs - if you can find it and
> people actually know what you are talking about. Yes, we can get
> food grade
> carrageen but at an enormously inflated price and, sorry, fine art
> or not,
> MC is the easier to find and the less expensive by far. We have
> identified a
> very good MC which is a tenth of the price of the Carrageen and
> have found
> it very easy to mix and use. Given that we get through about 300
> litres of
> size a week when we are in production, you can understand that
> carrageen is
> not an option for us.
>
> Alum is another thing that costs an arm and a leg as we can only get
> pharmaceutical grade alum here. If I could find a substitute I would.
>
> Pigments? We use what we can find. It's pointless trying to bring in
> expensive good quality marbling paints from the States or U.K. By
> the time
> you have paid the freight costs and duties- yes there are huge
> duties on
> non- essentials-you have products that are not viable in production.
>
> Pigment base? This created a few headaches for us given that most
> acrylic
> bases in South Africa are water based. We eventually found a base
> that was
> white spirits based and this is the one that works for us.
>
> Regards,
>
> Glenda in South Africa
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You know, it's all very well saying Carageen is the way to go. Maybe in
countries like the States and most European countries but here in South
Africa, carrageen costs an arm and three legs - if you can find it and
people actually know what you are talking about. Yes, we can get food grade
carrageen but at an enormously inflated price and, sorry, fine art or not,
MC is the easier to find and the less expensive by far. We have identified a
very good MC which is a tenth of the price of the Carrageen and have found
it very easy to mix and use. Given that we get through about 300 litres of
size a week when we are in production, you can understand that carrageen is
not an option for us.



Alum is another thing that costs an arm and a leg as we can only get
pharmaceutical grade alum here. If I could find a substitute I would.



Pigments? We use what we can find. It's pointless trying to bring in
expensive good quality marbling paints from the States or U.K. By the time
you have paid the freight costs and duties- yes there are huge duties on
non- essentials-you have products that are not viable in production.



Pigment base? This created a few headaches for us given that most acrylic
bases in South Africa are water based. We eventually found a base that was
white spirits based and this is the one that works for us.





Regards,

Glenda in South Africa







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I feel the same way. Some folks are quite happy with the MC, so there is a
place for it, but for my work, it's Carrageenan all the way. It just comes out
better. I also really don't like saving size, it gets so depressingly dirty. Not
inspiring. So I like to have it all clean and fresh when I start a marbling day.

I think if newbies first did it the "old" way, they would have an easier time of
it. I feel the same about so many of the so-called marbling paints out there.
Most seem to give people endless problems. I became a "paint maker" out of sheer
frustration, trying so many things, even called "marbling paints" that either
failed entirely, or the different colors conflicted with each other. There was
one brand where the yellow would expand so much it would sink the other colors.
No matter how much gall you put in the others to counteract it. Even gouache, if
it worked one time, another time it wouldn't. Marbling paint making is a really
quirky thing in reality. You don't just mix a color, most pigments won't work
anyway with the process... you have to study their chemical and physical
properties, and then find the ones that are compatible with each other. I have
been fine tuning the paint formulas for decades and am not done yet! And I
stress formulaS with an S, there is just not one all purpose one that works with
any pigment. I have to chuckle when someone asks for "the paint formula". It's
like asking for "The Cookie Recipe" .... it's different for each pigment. It's
is very complex really, and can be confusing.

So in addition to using carrageenan for a new marbler, I also suggest using
paints that are specifically made for the marbling process, either by an actual
marbler who knows what is needed, or a maker who works with a very experienced
marbler to test the paints.  I know if used as instructed my paints will work,
Nancy Morain's (Colophon Book Arts) will work. We are both marblers who use our
own materials. I used to make a decent acrylic, and it worked well, but I got so
little call for it, and had to make so much at once, that it would go bad over a
year or more, so discontinued it for sale. The shame is I know it worked great,
yet new marblers wanted to mess with Liquitex or similar and get bad results,
then email me for advice on how to use the Liquitex or whatever other brand. And
worse, they often used it on MC, which I couldn't advise at all about due to not
using it. Partly my acrylics were too expensive. I used the best grade
materials, and made the opposite of the usual acrylic formulas... where most
were just super heavy in acrylic base (plastic like goop) and fairly low in
pigment, mine were heavy on the pigments and low on the acrylic goo. A few drops
of paint went a long long way, plus they were pretty well ready to go right out
of the bottles with no adjustments... but yes, they were expensive per ounce,
but you got so much mileage per ounce!  I do have my store bought pet favorites
though, the cheap Ceram Coat is one, for the few times a year I may do fabric.
Even that is prone to being a little different though from batch to batch, and
not all the colors work for marbling. And sometimes ones that didn't work, will
work in a new batch!

All I can say is if you are starting out try it with the carrageenan, whether
with watercolor or acrylic paints. Try to use what the main working marblers are
using, they mention these items many times over and over in the archives, or you
can get books they wrote.

OK... will stop before this becomes a full length book... but why complicate
marbling, it's tricky enough without adding difficult materials to the mix.

Iris Nevins
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:23 PM
   Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try


   Iris and all thanks!
   I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
   lines.
   I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
   time.
   What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
   Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
   well...20 years?
   I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
   Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
   Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
   people to use it.
   Marbling is fine art!
   John

   On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins
<irisnevins@...<mailto:irisnevins@...>> wrote:

   >
   >
   > No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
   > costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
   > to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
   > water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
   > fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
   > acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
   > best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
   > follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
   > though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
   > over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
   >
   > I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
   > the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
   > troubleshoot when people have a problem.
   >
   > Iris Nevins
   >
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com\
%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: John
Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com<mailto:watermarkt\
ile@...%3Cwatermarktile%40gmail.com>>>
   >
   > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
   > Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
<Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
   > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
   > Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
   >
   > Hi All
   > I will say it again and again....
   > C A R R A G E E N A N
   > is the best I have found!
   > Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
   > marbling....
   > Is it just me?
   > John Goode
   > watermarktile.com
   >
   > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt
<jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org<mailto:jcpratt@...%3Cjcpratt%40efn.org>>
   > <mailto:jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...> <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
   >
   > > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
   > > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
   > > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
   > > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
   > > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
   > > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
   > > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
   > >
   > > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
   > > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
   > > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
   > >
   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
   > <
   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
   > >
   >
   > > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
   > >
   > > Carol
   > > Eugene, OR
   > >
   > > =====
   > >
   > > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
   > > It is in NYC and family-owned.
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
   > >
   > > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
   > > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
   > > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
   > > >
   > >
   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
   > <
   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
   > >
   >
   > > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
   > > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
   > > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
   > > >
   > > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
   > > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
   > > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
   > > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
   > > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
   > > >
   > > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
   > > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
   > > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
   > > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
   > > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
   > > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
   > > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
   > > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
   > > >
   > > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
   > > > source.
   > > > Sue
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > > ------------------------------------
   > >
   > > Yahoo! Groups Links
   > >
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ------------------------------------

   Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Iris and all thanks!
I know there are newbies and I want them to enjoy the work.The straight pure
lines.
I could only create mud marbling with that fake jell...I see it all the
time.
What could have been nice was trashed with the savings of a few pennies.
Look at it like this carrageenan has been around hundreds of years.MC
well...20 years?
I dont know and I cant care once was enough for me.
Not knocking anyone just want to share what it is that has worked for me.
Thanks for not stocking it Iris it just would cause you headaches teaching
people to use it.
Marbling is fine art!
John

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:04 PM, irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:

>
>
> No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it
> costs more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy
> to work with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard
> water, soft water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long
> fair trial, but did try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with
> acrylic and watercolor. It worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the
> best thing in my opinion too. Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to
> follow instructions quite well. A pound of Carrageenan does go a long way
> though, and I only make up as much as I need for the day or two if it goes
> over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we call it here. It works great.
>
> I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all
> the products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to
> troubleshoot when people have a problem.
>
> Iris Nevins
> www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...<watermarktile%40gmail.com>>
>
> To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> Marbling@yahoogroups.com <Marbling%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try
>
> Hi All
> I will say it again and again....
> C A R R A G E E N A N
> is the best I have found!
> Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
> marbling....
> Is it just me?
> John Goode
> watermarktile.com
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt
<jcpratt@...<jcpratt%40efn.org>
> <mailto:jcpratt@... <jcpratt%40efn.org>>> wrote:
>
> > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
> > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water. It will lump until it is
> > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve. However, if
> > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
> > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
> > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir. Once the mixture
> > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
> >
> > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
> > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
> > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS (see <
> >
>
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375
> <
>
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375
> >
>
> > >) . Their price is $14.50 per pound.
> >
> > Carol
> > Eugene, OR
> >
> > =====
> >
> > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
> > It is in NYC and family-owned.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
> >
> > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
> > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
> > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
> > >
> >
> http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
> <
> http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
> >
>
> > > you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
> > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
> > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
> > >
> > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
> > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
> > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
> > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
> > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
> > >
> > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
> > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
> > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
> > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
> > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
> > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
> > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
> > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
> > >
> > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
> > > source.
> > > Sue
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No John, I am another crazy person who will only use carrageenan. Yes it costs
more, yes you can't save it very long, but I love it. It is also easy to work
with, blender it, no borax, amonia, etc. Hardly any guess work, Hard water, soft
water, it's fine. Honestly I never likely gave the MC a long fair trial, but did
try it quite a few times, tried to make it work, with acrylic and watercolor. It
worked but I missed my carrageenan, it's just the best thing in my opinion too.
Maybe I was doing things wrong, but seemed to follow instructions quite well. A
pound of Carrageenan does go a long way though, and I only make up as much as I
need for the day or two if it goes over. I just add some fresh "gloop" as we
call it here. It works great.

I won't even sell MC because I really don't like using it myself. I use all the
products I make and have to like them, and have to be able to troubleshoot when
people have a problem.

Iris Nevins
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:55 PM
   Subject: Re: [Marbling] new source for mc -3rd try


   Hi All
   I will say it again and again....
   C A R R A G E E N A N
   is the best I have found!
   Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
   marbling....
   Is it just me?
   John Goode
   watermarktile.com

   On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt
<jcpratt@...<mailto:jcpratt@...>> wrote:

   > Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
   > MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water.  It will lump until it is
   > completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve.  However, if
   > about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
   > the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
   > The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir.  Once the mixture
   > is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
   >
   > Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
   > work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
   > from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS  (see  <
   >
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&\
ProductID=18375>
   >  >) .  Their price is $14.50 per pound.
   >
   > Carol
   > Eugene, OR
   >
   > =====
   >
   > TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
   > It is in NYC and family-owned.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
   >
   > > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
   > > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
   > > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
   > >
   >
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search<ht\
tp://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search>
   > >  you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
   > > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
   > > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
   > >
   > > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
   > > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
   > > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
   > > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
   > > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
   > >
   > > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
   > > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
   > > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
   > > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
   > > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
   > > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
   > > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
   > > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
   > >
   > > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
   > > source.
   > > Sue
   > >
   > >
   > >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >
   > ------------------------------------
   >
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ------------------------------------

   Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All
I will say it again and again....
C A R R A G E E N A N
is the best I have found!
Throw the MC away and dont go there again then we can talk about
marbling....
Is it just me?
John Goode
watermarktile.com

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...> wrote:

> Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
> MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water.  It will lump until it is
> completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve.  However, if
> about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
> the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
> The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir.  Once the mixture
> is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.
>
> Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
> work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
> from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS  (see  <
>
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductI\
D=18375
>  >) .  Their price is $14.50 per pound.
>
> Carol
> Eugene, OR
>
> =====
>
> TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
> It is in NYC and family-owned.
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:
>
> > sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
> > there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
> > is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
> >
> http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
> >  you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
> > search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
> > orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
> >
> > It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
> > it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
> > about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
> > it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
> > shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
> >
> > You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
> > thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
> > it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
> > immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
> > blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
> > sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
> > with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
> > a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
> >
> > Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
> > source.
> > Sue
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Instructions that came with my Methyl Cellulose years ago state that
MC dissolves VERY slowly in cold water.  It will lump until it is
completely dispersed, and only then will it dissolve.  However, if
about 1/3 of the water volume is warmed to about 195°F. (90°C.) and
the MC powder is added, it will go into dispersion MUCH more easily.
The box recommends "agitation", but I usually stir.  Once the mixture
is thoroughly wetted and dispersed, add the remaining (cold) water.

Methyl cellulose is extensively used in book and paper conservation
work, as well as in other paper art disciplines, and it is available
from book binding suppliers, such as TALAS  (see 
<http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&Product\
ID=18375
  >) .  Their price is $14.50 per pound.

Carol
Eugene, OR

=====

TALAS is a reliable company and has been around for many many years.
It is in NYC and family-owned.




On Nov 6, 2009, at 8:27 PM, artsycole wrote:

> sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out
> there. I have been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe
> is $22/lb plus shipping. I found another place listed:
> http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search
>  you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the
> search box or go to the expendables page. or 818-994-3049 for phone
> orders which is what I did so I could ask questions.
>
> It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause
> it is oderless and tasteless. I believe it was Kim that knows all
> about it that I talked to. It is $15/lb. I talked her into sending
> it in a double sealed plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on
> shipping. 3 pounds fits exactly in an $8.95 flat rate box.
>
> You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the
> thickness you require. It does not need ammonia. She says you "stir
> it until your arm feels like it will fall off". I suggested an
> immersion blender or what I did last time, was mixed some in a
> blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the water and let it
> sit overnight. So far, it works great and I have had no problems
> with it. The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is
> a little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.
>
> Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the
> source.
> Sue
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sometime ago, I googled methyl Cellulose to see what else was out there.  I have
been using the MC from dharma Trading, which I believe is $22/lb plus shipping.
I found another place listed:
http://www.rogergeorge.com/search/search.php?query=methyl+cellulose&go=search  
you can also go to the main site and put methyl cellulose in the search box or
go to the expendables page.  or 818-994-3049 for phone orders which is what I
did so I could ask questions.

It turns out they use it to make slime effects for movies, b ecause it is
oderless and tasteless.  I believe it was Kim that knows all about it that I
talked to.  It is $15/lb.  I talked her into sending it in a double sealed
plastic bag instead of the jar to cut down on shipping.  3 pounds fits exactly
in an $8.95 flat rate box.

You can use 2 or 3 tablespoons per gallon, depending on the thickness you
require.  It does not need ammonia.  She says you "stir it until your arm feels
like it will fall off".  I suggested an immersion blender or what I did last
time, was mixed some in a blender on slow speed, then added the rest of the
water and let it sit overnight.  So far, it works great and I have had no
problems with it.  The main thing I have noticed is that the powder itself is a
little fluffier than the kind from Dharma Trading.

Disclaimer:  I have nothing to do with them, just passing on the source.
Sue

Dear Carol,

Your friend can go to this link <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/join> to
sign up.
Let me know her email address and I will look out for it.

Cheers

John Ang
Moderator




________________________________
From: Carol Pratt <jcpratt@...>
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 1:03:19 PM
Subject: [Marbling] Membership


This is a question for our list manager, I think.

I have a friend here in Oregon, who is a neophyte marbler, and she
would greatly benefit from this list.  I've recommended that she
join.  However, when she tried to sign up this week, she was refused
and got only a rather curt form-letter from Yahoo, saying her
application was denied.

Any explanation I can pass on to her?  Should she try again?  I'm
confused and dismayed.

Carol Pratt
Eugene, OR






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a question for our list manager, I think.

I have a friend here in Oregon, who is a neophyte marbler, and she
would greatly benefit from this list.  I've recommended that she
join.  However, when she tried to sign up this week, she was refused
and got only a rather curt form-letter from Yahoo, saying her
application was denied.

Any explanation I can pass on to her?  Should she try again?  I'm
confused and dismayed.

Carol Pratt
Eugene, OR

Disclaimer:  these worked for me - they may not work for you.  I'm on a borrowed
computer for a moment, so do not have her name here, but  one of the other
marblers ent me a tip that I had forgotten about and it worked great for
overmarbling.  I mixed up some "clear" to make holes with by mixing about 1/4
teaspoon or a few drops of GF's Acrylic Flow Release to about 1 cup of water.  I
used it in both dropper bottles and cups so I could throw it with the
broomstraw.  You will need to adjust it to your water and paint.  At first, I
had mixed it too strong and the holes were about 5-6" across, so I added half
again as much water to get the size holes that I wanted.

I had done some silk scarves earlier that had come out too pale by trying to
"cheat" and doing a quicker method with the alum, so I went back to mixing the
alum in a bucket, swishing the scarves around and letting them set for 5-10
minutes, then letting them dry while hanging.  They worked much better this
time, so the other method had made the alum too weak.  The alum I use is from
Dharma Trading, but because I was doing a lot of them, I had tried to mix an
extra strong batch, then add it to the rinse cycle in my washing machine, but
even though I had turned down the water, it still diluted it too much.

I'm passing this on in case you might be tempted.  I'm the research type, so am
always trying different things to try to shortcut some of my time - some things
work, some don't. Although I still put just the scarves in the washer to spin
them out, so they will dry quicker.

The other thing I did have a success with was an accidental discovery.  I added
"paint conditioner" for latex and acrylic paints that I found in the
housepainting section of Walmart for $7.00 a bottle to some of my problem
paints.  It makes the paint dry slower when painting walls.  I had discoved this
when painting murals, and it allowed me to blend the paint better.

Hope I'm not being confusing with this explanation.  Anyway, i had some acrylic
paints that I couldn't get to spread properly and they kept sinking, so I added
just a small amount of the paint conditioner to them and now they are working
fine.  So far I have used the paints on both scarves and paper.
HTH
Sue

you need to put a direct link to your page or tell us how to find you.  The link
you provided is just the invite.
Sue


--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, srikkanth sundaram <srikkanthsundaram@...>
wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> I have created a Netlog profile with my pictures, videos, blogs and events and
I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. You first need to register on
Netlog! When you log in, you can create your own profile.
>
> Take a look:
>
http://en.netlog.com/go/mailurl/type=invite_1&mailid=582720814&id=1&url=-L2dvL3J\
lZ2lzdGVyL2lkPTE1ODQ0NjIxMTAmaT10OTE_
>
> Cheers,
> srikkanth
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't want to receive invitations from your friends anymore?
>
http://en.netlog.com/go/mailurl/type=invite_1&mailid=582720814&id=2&url=-L2dvL25\
vbWFpbHMvaW52aXRlL2VtYWlsPS1iV0Z5WW14cGJtZEFlV0ZvYjI5bmNtOTFjSE11WTI5dCZjb2RlPTE\
yNjIwMjEyJmlkPTE1ODQ0NjIxMTAmaT10OTI_
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi all,
 
I am a woodturner that marbles on my wood pieces.  I would be interested in
attending and/or participating in this event as a demonstrator.
 
Could I get more specific info to see if there is a chance that I can get
involved?
 
Thanks,

Carole A. Floate
CF Turnings
200 W. Witchwood Lane
Lake Bluff, IL 60044
P 847-295-2631
F 847-295-2675

--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Laura Sims <indigostone2@...> wrote:


From: Laura Sims <indigostone2@...>
Subject: Re: [Marbling] marblers gathering
To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 8:13 AM


 



Dear Melinda,

I will be happy to give you input from the 2002 Gathering if you would like to
call me.  Since we are on dial up I prefer phone communications.

There was a combination of invited presenters as well as individuals who also
volunteered presentations.  They were all excellent.  I wish you well as you
proceed.  Coordinating the conference was one of the most challenging and
enriching experiences I have ever experienced.

Best Regards,
Laura Sims
828-675-9722
indigostonestudio. com

--- On Thu, 10/29/09, athena_2547 <athena_2547@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: athena_2547 <athena_2547@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [Marbling] marblers gathering
To: Marbling@yahoogroup s.com
Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 11:40 PM

 

Hello,

I would like to propose Boston as the site of the next marblers

gathering, for fall 2010 or spring 2011.

I will volunteer to be the site coordinator, having never been able to

attend a gathering advice from past co-ordinators would be appreciated.

The Boston Paper Collective <http://www.bostonpa percollective. com>

studio in Charlestown could house a gallery show, lectures and

demonstrations. There are several amazing collections of marbled and

decorated papers in Boston. The museum of fine arts, the Houghton

library at Harvard, the Harvard museums, the Boston Public Library print

room and rare books, the Berger collection. All of these sites are

accessible by public transit and Boston has lodging ranging from bed and

breakfasts, to youth hostels. Outside of the city there are many book

arts related attractions in western mass, as well as the crane company

museum, and the museum of printing in North Andover.

~Melinda Cross

bostonpapercollecti ve@gmail. com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are many books available on the different types of marbling and the
materials used. I am sure all the books have a materials list.

For watercolor marbling, I use my own brand of watercolors formulated
specifically for marbling, with a slant on them towards being able to closely
match old book paper colors. They are to marbling paint what Williamsburg Paints
are to house paints.
I use only Carrageenan, ox gall, and aluminum sulfate or aluminum potassium
sulfate. And you need a good paper. The only one I safely recommend now is the
Dick Blick Sulfite paper, white, 18 X 24, either 60 or 80 pound. No 70 pound
available. 80 handles better than 60, just my opinion. Both are pretty good.

Really nothing fancy, no additives, no conditioners, no borax. I marble with
extremely hard water, even though people say it is technically not possible. It
is not only possible, but works just as well, I just use a little more
carrageenan to get the same viscosity. I was to date never taught how to marble
"properly", so I do some "wrong" things, but they happen to work. I keep it as
simple and uncomplicated as possible. It's complicated and confusing enough on
its own without adding more variables to it.

Iris Nevins
www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jehannettedelille<mailto:lady_blueshift@...>
   To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:02 AM
   Subject: [Marbling] Re: Paper and alum treatment


   Iris, and other folks on this list...

   Could I convince you to make an "equipment list" for the different types of
marbeling that you do?  Could you talk about the different results you get with
various materials, etc and place this here in the files section?  Getting clear
references on these sorts of things is not easy for us newbs.

   Thanks so much!

   Jehannette



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