Its funny but no one... not one person was able to answer ANY of the questions i
asked in my previous mail...

its almost as if the entire mail was simply ignored.

I seriously need some help. Please.. someone.. if you can, please answer these
questions...

    What does the Church say about mixed marriages?
    Are we allowed to marry outside the Syrian Orthodox community?
    What about other Christian denominations?
    How is it different for boys and girls? I mean, if a boy is to marry a girl
from a catholic background, for example, what needs to be done? Is she baptized
by our church? I thought we don’t believe in adult baptism (that’s another
question actually – about Babtism) How about a girl marrying a Marthomite… is
there any specific practise that is carried out?
    Is marrying a person from another faith (non-Christian) considered a SIN? Is
it strictly forbidden? Or is it simply something that is unadvisable?
    Is it true that the Church would never solemnize a marriage between people of
different faiths?
    In case a couple had a civil marriage, would the Church therefore consider
the two unmarried?
    Do we believe in conversion? If a non-Christian person truly believed and
actually wanted to convert to Christianity, does our Church permit it?
    In such a case, would the church conduct a marriage after conversion?
    For someone who has not gotten married in our Church – what are the things
that he/she is not allowed to do? Or does the Church ban the believer from
certain things?
       Is the person still even considered a Christian?
       Can the person still participate in and take Qurbana?
       Can the person go for confession or be given absolution?
       Can the children be baptized?
       At the time of death, will the Church conduct the funeral?
       What about things like house blessing
       Prayers for the dead
       If there are any other ways such a marriage would affect the believer's
relations with the Church, please do specify

    Assuming the Church conducted the marriage after the non-Christian was
converted, the other partner who was always a believer would obviously not be
barred from any of the above. In this situation, what happens if the convert,
after marriage, goes back to his/her old ways. What would the Church do? Would
it do anything? Would it affect the believer? How would one know if the person
was genuine – or just converting so that he/she would be allowed to get married?
Taking that into account, isn’t a superficial conversion also a sin?


I'm confused - have been trying to find out about these things... all I've come
up with are conflicting views... really need some solid guidance - preferably
just the plain truth without personal opinions...

Hoping for a response from someone...




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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:46:31 -0000
    From: Thomas P
Subject: Truth Triumphs!

A Mulanthuruthy local meeting decided that Jacobite church is the
only church in this world!!! i.e. a church which was registered in
2002 as an independent church is the only church in this world!

How can they make such a decision in a local meeting of few bishops
and lay people of JacobiHB Thomas 1  faction, in which two syrian
bishops also participated. Why the rest of Syrian and Indian bishops
did not participate? Were they invited for a common meeting to
discuss matters in an Apostolic way, the True Christian way we see
in
Acts, and in the method followed in acceptable Ecumenical Synod.

What happened in Chalcedon, St. Diascoros was not even allowed to
explain his position. Even before that the Pope Leo of Rome declared
that St. Diascoros is a heretic! And we know how Chalcedon, which
happened in an unjust way lead to blood-shedding and later the city
of Antioch was totally distroyed in earthquake. Today no Christian
church exist in that city.

In the history of Christian church there was never an acceptable
Synod in which both the parties were not invited. In Ephesus (AD
431)
both Nestor and Patriarch John of Antioch were invited, even though
both were confirmed heretics at that time. John was an ardent
supporter of Nestor, but later, after Ephesus converted back to
Orthodox faith due to the efforts of St. Cyril of Alexandria.

Mulanthuruthy meeting has no meaning. It is not canonical. It can be
considered a political gathering to preserve the political interests
of the present Jacobite leader trying to prove his leadership
abilities, give popularity and credibility  to the position he took
through media magic (which is another phenomena of doomsday). The
fact that he immediately went to see Political leaders to make Mr.
T.M. Jacob a minister proves what kind of a leader he is.

When the Patriarch said that Jacobites should pray for the other
group, in the same meeting HB Thomas 1 said very bad words about
H.H.
Catholicos. Thus he proved how much he follows the Patriarch!

People do not think, they go by shows and media magic.
I was told by an Orthodox friend that carefully planned shows are
not
Christian in nature, but done for praise and worldy reasons.

Mulanthuruthy meeting once again taught the RC faith of Universal
primacy of throne, that Patriarch can unilaterally make any
decision.
Universal Syrian is a term coined in 20th century. There is no
canonical validity for such a term. It is merely a political
strategy
to keep the Indian Church under subordination. Also, no Ecumenical
council placed Patriarch of Anthioc as the head of the Universal
Church.

But our people in Kerala do not think or try to learn. We are given
talents, not to hide it and remain blind, but to seek the truth
using
our talents.

Some questions for all to consider.

1. Which Orthodox Ecumenical council gave Patriarch of Antioch the
title 'Universal head'?
2. Which Orthodox Ecumenical council accepted the name 'Universal
Syrian'?
3. Which Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches in the whole world
believes in Universal rule of successsors of one throne, that one
leader can unilaterally make decisions?

The answer to all the three questions above is 'none'. It is a clear
answer for any one who learned the basics of the history of Orthodox
Christianity.

We say Kerala is a 100% literate community. But this literacy should
help us to learn the truth. Our talents should be used to understand
the truth and help others to learn the truth. In the past, and even
today our church did not put a lot of focus on catechism. Continuous
teaching is important in the Church. Only true knowledge can help us
to come out of the present complicated situation in the Malankara
Church.  Those who have some experience truth knows how important it
is to maintain unity in the Orthodox church of India, and how
unimportant and narrow the arguments of supremacy etc. are

Ignorant people of Kerala can be easily mislead through political
strategies of religious leaders. But truth is often not very
attrative and glamorous. Those who keep truth face great
difficulties
in the current world. Yet we stand by the side of truth.

I am still interested in the HB Thomas 1 group's response to the
above three questions?

I hope HB Thomas 1, his bishops and priests do not mislead people by
mixing teachings of different church groups, but teach Orthodoxy in
the purest way, and encourage youth to follow Orthodoxy instead of
training them to be blind religious fanatics.

-Thomas

Dear Group Elder,

It would be much appreciated to respond/answering a general question
raised by any members in this forum to guide them to be in the
correct track of matters. For instance, misty lady had posted her
queries a second time which none of the members nor you had
responded. I would like to say that a general query should be
responded by the Group Elder either giving directives or requesting
the members to respond in order to give proper guidance to the
doubtful and needful.

Thanking You

George Varghese

Abu Dhabi.

Dear Shimi,

Most of the questions that you have raised in this forum are
supposed to be answered by your Vicar of the church. If you are a
member of the orthodox parish, please raise these questions to the
Vicar who will be able to give answer to your queries directly. The
church laws would be much better explained by the church Vicar than
by the members in a forum.

If you are asking the sin part of marrying a Non-Orthodox Christian
or a Non-Christian, God did not create any religion. God created
human male/female and blessed them to increase in numbers and subdue
the earth. So if you marry a human on the earth you r not sinning to
get refused of Heaven. The rest are the local laws created by
different religions for their own existence. So I can tell you if
you marry a man of any religion on the earth you are not sinning to
Heaven. If you have any further questions about spiritual world and
human world other than the laws of religions, you may please ask me
for further clarifications.



Regards

George Varghese

Abu Dhabi

The Orthodox Church discourages mixed marriages. We conduct marriages
between Orthodox Christians only. There are only 3 denominations from
our church point of view:

Orthodox 2) Catholic 3) Protestant (Marthomites may act like us, but
they are protestants)

1. Marriage is held only between 2 members (male & female), of
the Orthodox Church. Marriage with Catholics doesn't need a
baptism
because the Orthodox Church recognizes the Pope as a legitimate
successor of the apostles.

2. Marriage with Protestants however means that the protestant
will receive baptism and be accepted by our church as a new member.
There is even a legal document, which the protestant has to sign
saying that he/ she is joining us on their own and not under duress.
Such a marriage will of course need the metropolitan's approval,
and
he will never deny the request. Now if you think it is our rigidity,
and our so-called Holier than Thou attitude, then you are wrong
because we have a legitimate reason for all this.

3. We don't mind Catholics first of all because in almost all
faith matters we are similar. Secondly there is no divorce in
Catholic Church, which is just like us. Marriage is a very serious
and holy issue in both our churches. Unfortunately we don't share
the
common faith or communion with Protestants. Protestants practice
divorce, which is loathsome to us. Protestants are known for
litigation and each group / sect has a different rule from the other,
and each leader will give you one interpretation or the other. In
fact we know and acknowledge that the Protestants believe like us in
Jesus, etc but they are inconsistent and change time to time.
Irrespective of all this we believe that only 2 orthodox members can
suit each other well. That's why we insist the non-orthodox
person of
the couple, to become orthodox. (Even Catholics are not exempt from
this)

4. Marriage to NON ORTHODOX is not possible in an ORTHODOX
church. The non-Christian must convert to our faith. If she / he does
so willingly, only then the marriage can be solemnized. Legal
marriages are not considered a marriage at all. The church
doesn't
recognize legal marriage. Although every legal system in the world
acknowledges an Orthodox Church marriage.

WHY THE RIGIDITY?

5. You are not a vagabond, born in the street, to do what you
want and get away with it. You are an orthodox family member. The
church is concerned with your spiritual well being. Rituals like
baptism, marriage, and funeral rites are exclusive privilege of the
members of the church. Each signifying the beginning of a special
chapter in your spiritual life. Will a civil judge baptize you? Can
you claim membership in a church, if a civil judge baptizes you? So
also you cannot be married by a judge. That marriage is not valid in
the eyes of the church.

6. If a legally married couple wishes to join our church, they
must accept our faith, be baptized, and remarried again. Children
born out of legal marriage maybe legal according to law of the land,
but not according to the church.

7. No non-church member can take qurbana. In fact even members
cannot take qurbana when they so desire (NO walk in qurbana). If you
are an adult or have urge to confess, (confession must be done)
following which absolution is given after which qurbana is
administered.


8. Our fascination with the west makes us think that husband and
wife are individual entities of their own. However the best way for a
married couple to receive qurbana is when they both go to confession
and take qurbana jointly. There is no such provision that a church
believer spouse can take qurbana while her / his non-believer spouse/
children watch from afar. All this sacraments are meant for the
entire family. No inclusions or exclusions. In fact if you watch the
qurbana carefully, in one particular time when achen kneels in front
of the altar and the deacon walks out of the altar with the censor,
walking the length of the church, Do you know what he is doing "
He
is cautioning you saying, all non believers please go out of the
church, this is a mystery between God and his people. Since you
don't
believe in Jesus you can't be here, go away.

9. When a person takes a membership he joins the church. He can
leave the church, by taking a membership elsewhere. 90 % of our
church members are inactive members so you have nothing to worry
about lapse in membership. However when you have a need from the
church, like house warming etc, its good to clean up your old dues,
else you will be reminded to do so by the church trustee.

10. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. Not the world.
Interacting with world doesn't mean getting involved with them
beyond
your faith. If your faith is weak they influence you and vice versa.
Christ is the only God. He is the only way to salvation and we
can't
even think of false gods like Allah or Ganesh as a deity even.

11. If you think that all people in the world have their own gods
just like they have their own convictions, then you mistaken. We have
only one God Jesus and we follow him daily.

12. You are right when you say how can we function in a secular
world without some relaxation in this matter, but this is what Jesus
says "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this
adulterous
and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed
when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."(Mark
8:37-39)"A Christian is a temporary member or traveler in this
world.
He should not dilute himself or lose his orientation. If you are
casual about God, god will treat you same. If you are zealous about
him, He will be zealous about you. Let me give you an example. When
God called Abraham from the pagan land, all he said was ""Get out
of
your country, from your family and from your father's house, to a
land that I will show you." Do you know Abraham was childless for
100
years? Do you know Abraham walked in a land, which was promised to
him, yet owned not even a meter of it?

13. Yet today we are all called  " the children of Abraham".
God
calls us to walk with him even in this day. If we believe in him, and
walk he will give us much more than we ever dreamt off. "Eye has not
seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The
things which God has prepared for those who love Him."[Isaiah 64:4].
But if you want to turn your back, like Lot's wife, then
humiliation
awaits you. Jesus said it simply. "You are the salt of the earth; but
if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then
good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
(Matthew 5:12-14). So is every Christian, minus Christ. The law my
dear lady has never changed, the law stands firm."You shall love
the
LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all
your strength. ( Deuteronomy 6:4-6) and like him you will love no one
else". Moreover Jesus says, "He who loves father or mother
more than
Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me
is not worthy of Me."( Matthew 10:36-38)

Many have forgotten this, that's why they have so many questions.

Thnx
GROUP ELDER

Dear Readers,

I am an orhodox church member. Any body can cleare my doubts,if you
can  please cleare it.

1-Jesus have any prist hood?

2-If yes wheather it is in order to Melchisadech or Aaron?

3-From whare or how Jesus got it?

Mathew.N.S.

Dear Group Elder & Mr. Varghese

Thank you both, firstly, for responding.

It was the last para in the Group Elder's mail which really did it for me.

You're right you know? Many have forgotten... and perhaps that IS why they ask
so many questions.

I'm glad i did.........

Pray for us... we need it

__________________________________________________
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Marrying form other religion/denomination.

It is not a sin to marry a person from another denomination.  But if
the other person continuing his belief of another
religion/denomination then it shall lead to sin.  That is happened in
the history of Solomon, Samson, and Isaac etc.

Solomon married a girl from Egypt and she remained in her faith even
after the marriage and it made Solomon to visit the temple of another
religion that is strongly ruled in the Ten Commandments and the
non-faithful wife made him to break it.  The spouse's non-faith sinned
Solomon.  Samson lost his gift of God because he married a girl from
another tribe and she spied him.  There are examples in the Bible
about the after effect of the non-believer spouses. It definitely
indicates that if anyone marries from another tribe, cast or
denomination it will lead him or her to commit sin.

Orthodoxy is the true belief and faith.  Our worship and tradition are
the true practices of faith so if anyone who marries a person from a
different faith and practices definitely drag to deviated path and
that shall lead to sin.  The person who is sinned because of his lack
of knowledge may be forgiven but if someone who already knows that it
is sin and committing a sin shall not be forgiven.

Why should we have to marry from different religion?  It happens with
certain love affairs.  When a person see another persons external
beauty that will fall in love with the other person and that is
instant love which is not at all advisable.  Human beings are the
creation of God and God blessed everybody with intelligence and that
is not to take any decision without enough thinking.  When you are
attracted by a person from another faith then you have to think that
why should I have to join with him/her?  That person is a non-believer
or wrong believer so I shall not proceed it as it will lead me to sin
and I will loose the right to be the child of God.

There are 3,500,000 people in the Indian Orthodox church and there are
enough men and women for each otherwise the maximum you can select
from the Apostolic Churches then why should you have to go and select
a person from an unfaithful sector.  If you do that and the person
remains with his faith then you will be sinned and loose your privilege.

Charly V. Padanilam,  Houston, TX.   charlyvp@...

Dear Brothers,
Please find below my third weekly posting. Members are requested to
commend on the subject.

Thank you

George Varghese
Abu Dhabi.

What you think about trinity?
God is the creator of the universe and every thing in it, including
man.  What is the difference between human and all other life on the
earth?  All living subjects e.g., plants animals and human being
process food, consume food, grow and re-produce the same species
before death, for the sake of existence of the same species on the
earth. That is how God created the life on the earth.  The above
mentioned is the physical {material} form of existence of life.  How
did God create man?  "God created man in his own image. In the image
of God he created him; male and female he created them
[Genesis.1:27].  What is God's image?  "God is spirit".  So the
difference between man and all other life on the earth is that the
human has a spirit in him.  God is spirit and God exist in the whole
universe.  So the spirit in man is part of God. Thus man is the Son
of God, because God created man.  Here we should understand that God
is the father of spirit and not the body.  See the words of Jesus "I
will tell you the truth unless the man is born again of water and
spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  Flesh gives birth to
flesh and the spirit gives birth to spirit  [John 3:5].  The flesh
is born from water and the spirit is born from spirit {God}.  So the
entire existence of spirit is God the father.  The part of the
entire spirit in the human is the son.  The Holy Spirit means the
existence of part of the entire spirit in the same quality of the
entire existence of spirit {God}. When the soul take first birth in
the cycle of span, the spirit enters the flesh is Holy Spirit.
Loosing the holiness {quality} is when the man commits sins.  Jesus
lived without sinning in his whole life as human and the soul
remained holy without loosing the quality.  So when you live without
sinning, you also remain as the Son of God.  Thus all the three
forms will remain as one form.

Orthodox church believes Jesus got the priesthood from, John the
Baptist. John gets it from his father Zechariah, who in turn received
it from Aaron, over generations. This is an explanation for why Jesus
got himself baptized Not only we, even the mighty prophet John
doesn't see any reason for Jesus being baptized, so much so that he
says " I need to be baptized by you lord", but Jesus says " let it be
done for the fulfillment of the scriptures".  And when Jesus is
baptized, God the father from heaven confirms that Jesus is his own
son, and the Holy Spirit comes like a dove on Jesus. All this shows
us that Father in Heaven, Son on earth and Spirit, which descends
from the father, are ONE. If you expand this conclusion you can
easily see that Jesus thus not only becomes the priest, but also the
sacrifice and the ONE who receives the sacrifice. All 3 in one is our
Lord Jesus. The apostle Paul confirms this by saying that the
priesthood of Jesus predates even that of Melchisedek. Paul draws our
attention to the existence of Jesus even before the creation of the
world says that he is of the order of Melchisedek who is mentioned as
without father or mother. Likewise Jesus has no earthly father, and
no heavenly mother. If you look carefully at the time of his birth
the wise men gave Jesus Gold (signifying his Kingship), frankincense
(High Priesthood), and Myrrh (Immortality).

Godship, kingship & Immortality, which all men desire is found only
in God. This is the basic nature of our God Jesus and the same he
confers to all who believe in him. Holy Qurbano , is a living sight
of how all this happens. That's why we call it the divine mysteries.

May God Bless You
ABBA BROWN, Boston

Yes, God the Father is Spirit and God the Son is Spirit also.  But,
Christ (the Son) is also Human and, thus, physical.  Because He is
both fully God and fully Man, then we can conclude that matter, the
physical world, also participates in God.  This separates us from
the Gnostics and all those who say that matter is merely an illusion.

Douglas Brandow
Sturgis, Michigan

Dear Shimi,
I am not much of an expert theologian or priest... but I have the
following
answers for you though some of the learned Priests will be able to
correct
me where ever I am wrong.What does the Church say about mixed marriages?
Are we allowed to marry outside the Syrian Orthodox community?
What about other Christian denominations?
  > You can marry any one... Only you are permitted to marry only Once
in the lifetime of both partners. Divorce is not justified except in
exceptional cases and needs the approval of the Bava Thirumeni...
How is it different for boys and girls? I mean, if a boy is to marry a
girl
from a catholic background, for example, what needs to be done? Is she
baptized by our church? I thought we don't believe in adult baptism
(that's
another question actually - about Babtism) How about a girl marrying a
Marthomite. is there any specific practise that is carried out?
  > Generally the apostolic churches holds that once baptised you do
not  need further baptism... only the Catholic churches insist that the
girl should undergo a class to understand the practices of that
church...
Is marrying a person from another faith (non-Christian) considered a
SIN? Is
it strictly forbidden? Or is it simply something that is unadvisable?

  > See the answer to the first question. Saint Paul advises us "...If
your  spouse is an un-believer do not leave him/her ... for the un-
believing husband is sanctified in Christ by the believing wife while
the
un-believing wife is sanctified in Christ by the believing  husband..."
  It is considered unadvisable because it will be difficult for you to
teach your children about the tenets of the faith when your spouse is
not
of your faith
Is it true that the Church would never solemnize a marriage between
people
of different faiths?
In case a couple had a civil marriage, would the Church therefore
consider
the two unmarried?
  > This is generally not true. Usually, if the partner is of
Christian  faith the church will not refuse. But if either one of the
couple is  not of the Christian faith, it would be pointless for
him/her to take  their vows before Christ... which is what a couple
marrying in church  is supposed to do... They take their vows to stay
married to each  other till death parts them and then rejoin each
other in the eternal  hereafter (reason for not lightly accepting
divorce). If you are not  of the faith why should you have Christ as a
witness for your vows?
Do we believe in conversion? If a non-Christian person truly believed
and
actually wanted to convert to Christianity, does our Church permit it?
In such a case, would the church conduct a marriage after conversion?
For someone who has not gotten married in our Church - what are the
things
that he/she is not allowed to do? Or does the Church ban the believer
from
certain things?
  > Conversion and marriage after that is only if the non Christian
partner really insists on becoming the member of the church...
Is the person still even considered a Christian?
Can the person still participate in and take Qurbana?
Can the person go for confession or be given absolution?
Can the children be baptized?
At the time of death, will the Church conduct the funeral?
What about things like house blessing
Prayers for the dead
If there are any other ways such a marriage would affect the believer's
relations with the Church, please do specify
  > Yes. He/She is still a Christian. They can have all the sacraments
on request to the local priest... except in the case of the funeral...
which is not really controlled by the person concerned...

Assuming the Church conducted the marriage after the non-Christian was
converted, the other partner who was always a believer would obviously
not
be barred from any of the above. In this situation, what happens if the
convert, after marriage, goes back to his/her old ways. What would the
Church do? Would it do anything? Would it affect the believer? How
would one
know if the person was genuine - or just converting so that he/she
would be
allowed to get married? Taking that into account, isn't a superficial
conversion also a sin?

  > These are questions of the individuals' conscience... It has not
been given to man to understand the thoughts of another. So the Priest
or
the Church will have to take the individual's statement at face
value and do the right thing. What happens later and its consequences
are
for the soul of the individual to justify to the Maker at the end  of
life's journey...

I hope that I have been able to clarify some of your doubts. If the
post
appears on the group site, then if there are mistakes our elders and
Priests
of the group will correct me...
Hope this is of some help to you. I am a Sunday school teacher and have
had
to answer some of these questions for my students at various times...
Regards
John Philipose
Kuwait

Thanks for your replay.
In bible Hebrew Chapter7 is saying Jesus is a priest
in order to Melchisadech.Melchisadech don't have any
beginning and end or father or mother. Same chapter
saying Jesus is priest for ever so that we need not to
do scarification as earlier Aaron done. Jesus is fore
ever as a priest. This chapter is strongly saying no
need of priest hood after the Christ. But chapter 5 is
saying Jesus is a priest and it received from John
Baptist during his baptism. So this is confusing if we
think in deeply.The book Hebrew is also don't
addressed anybody as other Book's of St.Paul.Is it
wrote by others and included in St.Paul's book.If any
body have bible in Greek language they may able to
compare the diff rents of this books. All the English
versions are almost same meaning is there.
Jeremiah chapter 33 is saying Kingdom of David and
Priest hood in order to Aaron will be up to the end
(in Malayalam bible clearly written as "Until man can
control Sun and Moon" In English versions meaning is
Alamost same. But the book of Hebrew chapter 7 is
making confusion.
Mathew.N.Samuel
Oman

The holy spirit is with us as orthodox belief but it
will loose when we enter in sin. For that our fore
fathers advised as Keep Holiness in body and mind,
Tell and do all in truth, keep justification in all
life and participate in Holy "Qurbana" regularly (take
Holy flesh and blood of Jesus at every time). In this
way only we can keep up Holy spirit with us. After the
baptism we are getting Holy spirit and it must be keep
up until the end of life.
(Mr.Varghese can you tell, during the baptism is the
Cross marking making with Moron on ea re of the
child?)
Mathew.N.Samuel

Dear Brothers & Sisters

With all love and respect I write this.
Based on Mathew 1:25, Matt. 13:56 and other Bible ref. and from the life style
of Joseph & Mathavu as given in the Bible I beleive that, Mathavu and Joseph
lived as husband and wife according to Jewish law, until Joseph died.  (In the
21st centruy we can call Mathavu as Mrs.Joseph). Then how can we call mathavu
virgin. Mathavu was a humble and simple house wife until death. It is a great
honor for mathavu, that she was the mother of Jesus.

God always chooses ordinary people and use them to do HIS will / miracles. God's
people remain humble and live simple, rejoicing in the Lord Jesus, from birth to
death. (except Orthodx and RCC churches. In the RCC and Orhodox churches people 
are born as sinners, live as sinners and die as sinners. Only prayer after
death, can take their souls to heaven. This is against Bible teaching. 50 years
after death, some of them are made saints ,1500 years after death they are made
Gods). All these things happen because of Biblical ignorance. Real Malanakara
orthodox people have a great responsibility to clean up myths in the church
based on Bible.
Mathavu was repected  and honoured as mother of Jesus until 3rd century, then
with the order of Constatine, Matavu was made Queen of Heaven. The Matahvu and
relics worship started since he wanted Christianity to be same as all other
major religions. Ancient religions have eternal virign mother godesses. Go to
India, Egypt,or any ancient places you will see people worshipping eternal
virgin mother Godess.

I am an orthodox man and I want people to stop telling myth in the church when
we have a holy bible. When we tell speculations, we make God the author of
truth, a lier. When we spread lies about Bible truth, the man who spreads myth
will be held accountable. Believers' job is to teach  what is written in
scriputre and, not what is not written in the scripture.
100's of people died in the church without knowing Jesus since 4th centruy,
because of of the false teaching to worship mathavu and relics. Even in the 21
st century many people do it since they don't know scripture and its power. Even
last month, HH bava spoke in Kottayam come and worship at Manarcadu Church and
get blessing from Mathavu ( Bible teaches pray to God only and get abundant 
blessings). We live in such a place. Listen what you hear and guard your heart
at all cost! Otherwise you will fall down spiritually.
Dear brothers and sisters, it is a wake up call. Preach about the second coming
of Jesus. Time is near. Work for HIS kingdom so that many will be saved by your
truthful/faithful work, otherwise many will not see the kingdom of God by one's
hypocritical work.
Sincerly
Philip

I will give a try at your queries, not as an expert but as a layman. My
response after the question.
Q1: What does the Church say about mixed marriages?
Answer varies depending on what constitutes mixed marriage. By mixed
marriage if you mean union between a Christian and a Non-Christian,
then
the answer is straight forward; church forbids it. On the other hand if
it means marriage between various Christian denominations, then there
is
no outright rejection by the church.
Q2: Are we allowed to marry outside the Syrian Orthodox community?
At least in policy and canon we are allowed to marry only those who
confess in the Oriental Orthodox faith. In the Malankara scenario this
equates to Orthodox, Jacobites and Knanaya Jacobite. But in practice
this rule is not strictly followed.
Q3: What about other Christian denominations?
Any Orthodox person can marry a member of other mainstream Christian
denominations excluding Pentecostal and other sectarian churches.
However this practice is discouraged by the church.
Q4: How is it different for boys and girls?
The common practice is that the girl irrespective of which denomination
she belongs needs to join the Orthodox church. In case an Orthodox girl
marries a Non-Orthodox boy in his church, she automatically ceases to
be
Orthodox. Please note that this is not same as excommunication. The
girl
will still be a Christian but will not be in communion with Orthodox.
Q5: I mean, if a boy is to marry a girl from a catholic background, for
example, what needs to be done? Is she baptized by our church? I
thought
we don't believe in adult baptism (that's another question actually -
about Babtism)
Any one baptised as a Christian in any of the mainstream Christian
denominations like Marthoma, CSI, Catholic, Evangelical etc doesn't
need
to be rebaptised before marriage. All that is needed is a short
Chrismation ceremony which is essentially reiterating an oath of
allegiance to the Orthodox theology and its practices.
Q6: How about a girl marrying a Marthomite... is there any specific
practise that is carried out?
To the best of my knowledge Marthomites accept any one baptised in any
mainstream church and there is no ceremony that needs to be conducted
as
a precursor to marriage.
Q7: Is marrying a person from another faith (non-Christian) considered
a
SIN? Is it strictly forbidden? Or is it simply something that is
unadvisable?
I haven't come across any statement by the Orthodox church which states
that marrying a Non-Christian is an outright sin. It is true that the
church forbids such marriages but that doesn't tantamount to condemning
that act as a sin. As to the practical aspects, in hindsight my
personal
recommendation is for the boy and the girl following the same faith
which means one of them accepting the faith of the other half.
Q8:   Is it true that the Church would never solemnize a marriage
between people of different faiths?
Yes to the best of my knowledge. Else the person following
Non-Christian
faith need to baptise and become a Christian. However such conversion
for convenience is frowned upon by the church.
Q9: In case a couple had a civil marriage, would the Church therefore
consider the two unmarried?
I am not an authority to answer that question. The official stand of
the
Orthodox church on such matters can be best answered by the clergy.

Q10: Do we believe in conversion? If a non-Christian person truly
believed and actually wanted to convert to Christianity, does our
Church
permit it?
To the best of my knowledge, Orthodox church doesn't encourage
conversion in the western protestant sense i.e. converting people to
swell the congregation numbers or to defile other faiths by imposing
Christian exclusivity to salvation/heaven etc. However if a person
voluntarily without any compulsion approach the church to join the
faith, he/she will be accepted into our fold unless there are
compelling
reasons to stop him from joining the church.
Q11: In such a case, would the church conduct a marriage after
conversion?
Yes to the best of my knowledge.
Q12: For someone who has not gotten married in our Church - what are
the
things that he/she is not allowed to do? Or does the Church ban the
believer from certain things?
A: Is the person still even considered a Christian?
As long as that person is a baptised Christian he will be considered a
Christian.
B: Can the person still participate in and take Qurbana?
There is no problem in attending Qurbana but to the best of my
knowledge
he/she will not be eligible for communion.
C: Can the person go for confession or be given absolution?
D: Can the children be baptized?
E: At the time of death, will the Church conduct the funeral?
F: Prayers for the dead
The sub sections C,D, E & F can be best answered by the clergy, lest I
will be advising you about some aspects which I am unsure of.

G: What about things like house blessing
I have attended house warming functions where an Orthodox priest
conducted the ceremony irrespective of whether the couple who own the
house are Orthodox. However it is best to consult the clergy about the
official stand of the church on this matter.

Q13: If there are any other ways such a marriage would affect the
believer's relations with the Church, please do specify
It is best to take up the matter with the clergy as they are more
knowledgeable on these issues.
Q14: Assuming the Church conducted the marriage after the non-Christian
was converted, the other partner who was always a believer would
obviously not be barred from any of the above.
Yes to the best of my knowledge.
Q15: In this situation, what happens if the convert, after marriage,
goes back to his/her old ways. What would the Church do? Would it do
anything? Would it affect the believer? How would one know if the
person
was genuine - or just converting so that he/she would be allowed to get
married? Taking that into account, isn't a superficial conversion also
a
sin?
Again these are questions to be answered by the clergy than a lay
person. Do take it up with them.
I would once again like to remind you that all my responses are to the
best of my limited knowledge. Do consult learned clergy and scholars of
the church before making any important decisions.
Cherian, Cherry


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would like to write about the consecration of Mooron by the
Patriarch in Kothamangalam. The whole ceremony which needs
spiritual preparations and prayers was conducted in a very
casual manner within 15 minutes. For making a Moru curry, our
women usually take 10 to 15 minutes. You know what Valia Bawa
Thirumeni (Kallasseril Bawa) did when he was preparing himself
for the consecration of the Holy Mooron. It was at this time that
Puthenkavil Kochu Thirumeni died at Kunnamkulam. The body of
Puthenkavil Thirumeni was taken to Devalokam so that Bawa
Thirumeni could pay his love and respect to the mortal remains
of his beloved brother, Kochu Thirumeni. Then the body was taken
again from Devalokam to Puthenkavu for the burial. As Bawa
Thirumeni was in preparation for Mooron, HH did not even attend
the burial.
This was the way our fathers conducted the Mooron Koodasha in
the past and it is in this way it is being conducted in our Church
even now.

Towards the last leg of his visit to India, the Patriarch has
also conducted a consecration of a church in Delhi. This also
had a farcical tinge. Usually, there is a first part for the
Consecration ceremony which is done in the evening and the
second part is done on the next day. There was no first part. The
Patriarch spent the evening for the Public meeting at Talkotra
stadium and the Dinner. The next day, the consecration ceremony
lasted only for a few minutes. The Vicar made a statement
showing the reason for the short ceremony. As a temporary
consecration was carried out by some body in the past and as the
present consecration ceremony is being conducted by the Patriarch,
the ceremony needed only that much time.

Next day, the Malayala Manorama carried a photo of the Patriarch
conducting the consecration ceremony. There was even a priest in white
Loha. This is not the way we consecrate in a church.

A Malankara Syrian Orthodox member from Delhi.

If Adam and Eve are the first human beings , who is Cain's wife?

Dear group leader, Mr.George Verghese,

very recently i started receiving the digests regularly. your efforts
are indeed laudable. while going through some of your good advices
some thoughts came to my mind which i wished to share with the
forum.
1. ask your vicar about the doubts. it is a valuable suggestion.
except during holy confession no one really get a chance to talk to
the vicar. he seldom visits the houses, he gets less time to talk to
such faithful because he is over burdned with the church activities
like, organising fund collections,arranging meetings, attending
meetings to fight the other faction of the church etc. therefore
where the faithful meet him to get his/her doubt cleared.
2. the orthodox church is not very clear why the church is
called 'orthodox'. this term is not seen in the necean creed which is
the core faith of the church. the term which hear during holy
querbana is 'shyheekavum kutta rehithavu aya eka vishwasam'.
3. when we analyse the practices of different denominations we could
not find any difference in the core faith which is Jesus is God. then
why hundreds of churches in the world. when God is same to all humans
why do we differentiate Christians from non christians.
4. i do agree that any organisation should have its administrative
set up for its existence. finance is the major factor. this factor is
related to Satan. therefore we find all the disputes in the churches
on properties and powers. the thrones have been created to support
the above argument.
5. can the Christians take a liberal approach towards its members
that they can attend the worship of true God any where. but ask him
to receive the sacraments like baptism and marriage only from his
denomination.
6. today a faithful travels miles to attend a worship when a worship
place is near to him becuase of his church association.
6. the subscriptions to the parish should be made mendatory and fund
collections as per his wish.
7. today a faithful is considered an active memebr of the church if
he associates himself with its major activities. those who actively
participate in spiritual activities ( daily prayers, confession,
fasts, lent over and above Christian LOVE) are considered sleeping
members.
8. in an orthodox tradition none except a priest ( or a man with
kaiveppu) is authorised to speek to the congregation during liturgy.
today we witness others make annoncements.
church is the kingdom of God in earth. how the human rules and
regulations entered into it. are we creating several gods for our
support? 90% of church members are silent about it and the 10%
rule the mejority today. the liberation of receiving the Holy Mystery
with out confession has reduced its sacredness in the minds of
people. instead the holy confession should be made in every 3 months.
to encourage that every parish should organise retreats for the
members. that should be the major activity of the church in a parish.
all those attend the retreat will take confession. let them
receive the mystery every week after receiving 'hussoyo'encouraged
with your good efforts i scribbled the above points, may be not
important.
with prayers
Dr.GeorgeK John

1- This is an Important matter to settle in our church. Some of our
Spiritual fathers they are sevecing in small churches and normally
their Income is very Low, specially in northern side of Kerala. Our
managing commetty must think and Hike priest salary it must be more
than a UGC scale Lecturer.Our spiritual fathers if they are suffering
for money it is not a fair for our church. All the fathers must be
transfered to other dicoses and in to big churches. All the Bishops
also transfered in every 5 years. Personnel properties shuld not
allow for Bishops.(remember Adoor Thapovan School)

2- We have a web site ok it is good. please add some pages to post
church members view and thoughts. another one page is required for
quistian and answer about our belief and bible.

3- Our HH. Bava thirumeni is very old and HH hase lot of work. So
that there must appoint a Bishop to assist HH.(One of thew Newly
selected bishop is desairable)

4- Our cannon must be revised as per present circumstance.

5- In Parumala church that sound system must be replaced and install
new one that can hear easly.

6- In parumala church we completly ignored HE.Yulios Metrapolita's
Kabar. Something to do for that.

7- In front of parumala church some place is empty (Newly purchaised)
There we can construct a complex for office of all the church
publication membership, Book stall, church materials etc. so that
everybody can pay their membership fees for publications.

8- Our church history authered by Rev.Dr. Cheeran Achen this is a
uncountable asset for our church it may publish through
Malankarasabha Masika. This shall help all to understand our history.

9- A campain must be orgnised for our publications and circulation
improvement is required.

We need some people those truly like church and God and energetic.

Newly elected Managing committee also is same as old, only for name
some are in chair. Select sombody those can work for church not for
thier own name.

This is my ambitions to our Indian Orthodox church.

I hope it may come in true before end of world.

Love in Christ.

Mathew.N.Samuel

If Adam and Eve are the first human beings , who is Cain's wife?

Dear jacob hope this clarifies the query:

This question is frequently asked as the students are not taught that
Gen. 1-11 are pre-historical. Any one who compares Gen. 1: 1-2: 3
with Gen. 2: 4-24 can easily recognize that there are two distinct
stories of creation and none is to be taken literally as the answer
to the question how the world was created.

The creation story in Gen. 1 is 'P' Document and God is called Elohim
in it. Its date is around 450 B.C. and whoever wrote it did not
compare the earlier story found in the second chapter where God is
called Jehovah.

  This second chapter called 'J' Document is dated around 750 B.C. In
the creation story in the first chapter, creation takes place in six
days, humanity is created male and female in the image of God on the
sixth day, the sun and moon are created on the fourth day and water
covered the land before land and water were separated.

In the earlier story found in the second chapter there is no mention
of creation on each day, Adam is created before the animals are
created and Eve is created from the rib of Adam after the creation of
animals and the plants grew due to the mist that went up and watered
the whole earth.

Those who believe that the Bible gives the answer to the
question 'how' the world was created will have to choose one of these
stories and leave the other as myth. Those who have taken the pain to
study the Bible critically would agree that the creation story is a
saga to answer certain theological questions such as who created the
earth and all things visible and invisible and not the biological
questions about the age of the earth and the plants and life on
earth.

The theological answer regarding the image of God in man is also of
immense significance concerning the questions related to the nature
and destiny of man. In both the creation stories, it is God who
created, whether Elohim or Jehovah.

It is very unfortunate that the Fundamentalist brethren degrade the
Holy Bible of eternal value to the level of time-bound and changing
values of scientific truths. We ought to leave to science to answer
the question how the world was created, by slow evolution or by
sudden creation.

  The Holy Bible is not a text-book of Physics or Chemistry or
Geography or Zoology or Biology. It is the basic text book on
theology and must be kept in that level.

  Let the Bible answer the fundamental questions about God, the
salvation of man, the life after death etc., and let us allow science
to answer all physiological questions that can be verified by
objective tests in the laboratory or outside.

      The question 'whom did Cain marry ?' is raised out of the
misunderstanding about the word 'Adam.'

  Adam in Hebrew is not a proper name, but it just means 'man or
humanity.' The presence or absence of other human beings at the time
of Adam does not change the theological truths about the first Adam,
the representative fallen man taken as the head of the fallen
humanity.

The Second Adam, Jesus Christ is, the representative and the Head of
the redeemed humanity in spite of the fact that other human beings
lived at the time of the economy of salvation in the life of Jesus of
Nazareth. Just as the defeat of Goliath meant the defeat of all the
Philistines (I Sam. 17), the fall of Adam meant the fall of the whole
of humanity. We must move from the Second Adam to the first and not
vice versa.

     The story of Cain in Gen. 4 makes it clear that there were other
human beings in the land of Nod where Cain fled and found a girl whom
he took to wife. "Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord,
and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden" (16).

  Nod was a place of so many people that Cain built a city there for
the inhabitants in honor of his son Enoch (17). Some of the fathers
thought that Cain married his sister, but it seems very unlikely. If
there were no other people, why did Cain say, "whoever finds me will
slay me" (4: 14) ?

The point is that even if creation was evolutionary, there is no
problem as far as the theology of the creation story is concerned. It
is alright to teach creation story as it is recorded in the Bible in
the primary class in the Sunday School when evolutionary creation is
understandable to the kids. But a little later the students will
ask, "How were the first three days of creation calculated with the
words, 'and there was evening and there was morning,' when the sun,
the moon and the stars were created only on the fourth day ?" When
the students are able to ask such questions, the truth of creation
should be explained as theological and not biological or zoological.


Thus the question, 'whom did, Cain, marry ?' is a good opportunity to
explain the fact that, first two chapters of Genesis belong to pre-
historic narrative and also the documentary theory that in the days
of Ezra, the Jehovistic. Elohistic, Deuteronomic, and priestly codes
were amalgamated into one volume for the first time and the reasons
for the discrepancy in the two creation stories, two flood narratives
etc.

The fundamentalists are not doing full justice to the Bible itself as
they are not open-minded to confess that the Bible is a divine human
book with the unchanging truths of God are recorded in the changing
and even fallible words of man. The Bible interpreted in such a way
that there is no conflict between the Bible and science. "The letter
killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

varghese

The following MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian poll is now closed.  Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: What should be done with Mar Makarios
of the US/CANADA diocese?
( This POLL is on request by members
who wish to remain unnamed)


CHOICES AND RESULTS
- He is senior metran. He should be accomodated, 9 votes, 11.69%
- He must be excommunicated!, 6 votes, 7.79%
- He must be sent back to Kerala!, 6 votes, 7.79%
- He must be retained Metropolitan of US , 7 votes, 9.09%
- Let him continue in his existing position as per BAWAS directive., 10 votes,
12.99%
- His activities in US are causing conflict. Something must be done, 9 votes,
11.69%
- Im not aware of this metran. I have no comments., 8 votes, 10.39%
- Mar Barnabas must adjust with Mar Makarios, 6 votes, 7.79%
- Mar Barnabas must be sent back to Kerala , 6 votes, 7.79%
- Mar Nicolovich is the cause of the problem. He should never have been accepted
by our church., 10 votes, 12.99%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/

The book titled 'The Syrian Orthodox Church Calendar' released His
Holiness the Patriarch on September 22nd released the book
titled  "The Syrian Orthodox Church Calendar" by accepting the first
copy from His Beatitude the Catholicos at the public meeting held at
Manjanikkara.

This book compiled and edited by Fr. (Dr.) Mani Rajan, contains the
dates of feasts of the saints,fasts and festivals of the Church,
dates of movable feats for the 21st century as per Julian and
Gregorian Calendars and articles related to the origin and evolution
of the Church Calendar.

The Church Calendar published in the 14th century by the monk-priest
Saliba bar Khayrun of Hah, made available to the publishers by His
Eminence Mor Julius Kuriakose Metropolitan, the first secretary to
His Holiness the Patriarch, is the main source of this work. The
feast date of saints has been updated as of today.

Pages 128 (English)
Publishers: Travancore Syriac Orthodox Publishers, Kottayam – 686004,
Kerala,India. email: tsop@..., Tel: 0481-3100179,
9447315914

For Copies of the book, contact:-
1. Mor Ignathios Dayro, Manjanikkara
2. Mor Julius Book Centre, St. Joseph's Cathedral, Kottayam
3. Rev. Fr. Thomas, Vicar, Mulanthuruthy Marthoman Church
4. M.S.O.T. Seminary Book Stall, Udayagiri
5. M.G.O.C.S.M. Book Stall, near CMS College, Kottayam
6. Orthodox Book Centre, 1st floor, M.D. Commercial Centre, Kottayam

To view the pictures of the said function and the cover page of the
calendar please visit News section of Apostolic Visit -2004
http://ApostolicVisit.cjb.net
or http://ApostolicVisit2004.cjb.net

Source
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SOCM-FORUM/message/5106

Thomas Daniel (Reji)
St. George Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church
Cheppaud, Alleppy Dist, Kerala, India.
http://groups.msn.com/StGeorgeSyrianOrthodoxChurchCheppaud

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

I just read the recent voting results. I think it is a disservice to our
Church and community to publically chastise our bishops. They have their
problems like any one else. The whole situation is a result of our lack of
discipline. It begins with the top, not with the bottom.

We deserve better leadership. We do not learn from the past. We are caught
up in ideas and ideologies whcih are neither Christian or relevant to
contemporary life.

Look at the Mar Thoma Church. Their bishops speak with one voice. Their
priests obey. They have had problem people, but the way they deal with 
situations
and people strengthen their unity and progress as a Church.

We can learn a thing or two from the Marthoma Church. I compare them with  us
because they are from the same stock as we are. They went through almost
everything that we have been through. But they learned. We somehow don't get 
it.

I thought the comments in the voting about our Metropolitans are unfair,
unnecessary and disrespectful.

In Christ's love,

_CCMathewsachen@..._ (mailto:CCMathewsachen@...)
Wednesday October 6, 2004


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Dr. George K John,

I have gone through your posting and I am very much pleased with
your curiosity to know the truths and facts. Please consider me as a
layman who is sincerely trying to update our church. I am thankful
to you to address this message in common with group leader and self
on the same platform together, with the intention to encourage me. I
would like to know the names and details of the elder and leaders of
this forum.

Let us start with asking to the vicar. A vicar of the church is by
law, liable to answer the doubts of the layman. A vicar's salary is
paid from the subscriptions of the members of the church. Church
cannot keep the law unless the members are taught about it. I still
do not know why the priesthood has brought to Christianity. See what
Jesus says about the priests. "Wow to you, teachers of the law and
Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's
faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who
are trying to [Mathew 21:13-14]". Now let us see what Jesus said
about the priest about their activities. "Wow to you, teachers of
the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea
to win a single convert, and when he becomes one. You make him twice
as much as son of hell as you are [Mathew 21:15]. I invite the
members to read the balance part of Mathew 21 till end to know what
exactly what Jesus tells about the priests. And why there should be
a priest for us when Jesus made us the priests of God. As I have
mentioned in one of my posting earlier, Christianity is the largest
business network on the earth.

If you accept a humor from me, If you are unable to talk to a priest
please Invite him home for a feast, I used to make fun of my
relatives priests asking their lohas on rental basis to attend the
marriages to have a special place to eat the largest parts of
chicken. Please consider this as a pure joke.

Now let us see what are we benefiting form the church. If Jesus says
that the priests do not allow the man to enter the Kingdom of
Heaven, What is the product of the church which you are buying,
paying monthly subscriptions? Now balance what you get from the
church is a group of people unqualified by the church to enter the
Kingdom of God. If you are going to the church for offering your
prayers, if you are a follower of Christ, please listen to Jesus
what he says of the prayers.

" But when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to
pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen
by men. I tell you the truth they have received their reward in full
[Math 6:5]. When you pray go in to your room, close the door and
pray to your  Father, who is unseen. Then your Father who sees what
is done in secret, will reward you [Math 6:6]. And when you pray, do
not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard
because of their many words.[Math 6:7]. Do not be like them, for
your Father knows what you need before you ask him [Math 6:8].
This is how you should pray: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your
name, [Math 6:9] your Kingdom come, your will be done on the earth
as it is in heaven. [Math 6:10] Give us today our daily bread. [Math
6:11] Forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors.
[Math 6;12] And lead us not into temptations, but deliver us from
the evil one". [Math 6:13]
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly
Father will also forgive you.[Math 6:14] But if you do not forgive
men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. [Math 6:15]
Is it what the church teaches you to pray. Jesus says " And when you
pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will
be heard because of their many words.[Math 6:7]. Do not be like
them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him [Math
6:8]". Here church will encourage you offer in kind for you to
receive your favorites.

I sincerely hope the above brings answer to all your questions
I shall be with you at weekend again with my weekly posting.

George Varghese
Abu Dhabi

Dear padanayakan,

You seem to explain things very well. Please do explain me the
following :

1. Why did Saintly parumala thirumeni act as the chief organiser of
the 1876 Mulanthuruthy sunnahadose if it was at this sunnahadose that
The Patriarch was trying to establish his authority ? Could he not
understand the " crooked intentions " of the Patriarch who tried to
setup a democratic style of church governance in country where
democracy was not even heard of ?

2. Why is the Devalokam Orthodox church hanging on to the Parumala
Church and properties when the deed is clearly in the name of the
patriarch of antioch ?

3. Why did Vattasheril metran get ordained from HH Abded Aloho if the
canonical patriarch was HH Abdul Meshiha. Both were alive at that
time. And if Abdul Meshiha was the canonical patriarch, then the
pattathvam of vattasheri is automatically void .

4. Why did not Vattasheril attend the so called catholica vazhcha and
the re-establishment of the catholicate in India ? Was it because he
was very well aware that it was being done only to satisfy his ego
and there was nothing canonical about it ? And also why did the same
abdul Massiah who had earlier condemned the demand for the re-
establishment of the Catholicate by saying that " whoever demands
this will be cursed " later on agree to it ? It must be true what the
church fathers say about his mental condition at the time of his
disposal as Patriarch .

5. why was vattasheril against the implementation of the 1934
constitution ?

6. Why did not Vattasheri perform any canonical sacraments after he
was excommunicated by the " Uncanonical " Patriarch ?

7. How come Mar Ivanios joined the RC church and please it would be
helpful if you could give the whole background of it ?

8. Why was Mar Augen wearing plain white robes during his "
elevation " as catholicose ? Was he being re - ordinated by the
patriarch as metropolitan ?

9. Why did Mar Augen declare " Patriarch is my head " and then start
talking about equality ? Was there something gravely wrong wth him or
was he just following the traditions of the Devalokam orthodox
church ?

10. If the Hudaya Canon version submitted by the DOC in the court is
the legal one do you accept the spiritual supermacy of the RC pope as
mentioned in it ?

11. Why is it that the DOC catolica wants to enter the prominent SOC
churches where he is unwanted ? Is it only to create trouble and take
over properties even if it means the churches will go empty and no
faithful will want to go with him ? Why is he not interested in
smaller and poorer churches ? Is it because of less sensationalism
and because of the reason that the coffers of Devalokam will get
nothing from the poorer churches ?

Hope you would be kind enough to explain to me the above in the same
spirit with which you explained the " uncanonical " acts of the
Patriarch.

rgds

Manoj

West Africa

God created man in his own image and put his breath in him.  It shows
that God wants the creation same as the creator.  The words of God in
Lviticus 14:45 "I am the Lord who brought you up out of Egypt to be
your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy." So to be holy is the
obedience.

God gives all the freedom to human being.  When God Put Adam and Eve
in the Garden of Aden, God gave them all the freedom but only He told
to not to eat the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the Aden.
  Either God can create the garden without that tree or God can arrange
any kind of fence over that tree.  Even the tree can be done with an
electric shock so that may prevent from touching Adam or Eve.  But God
kept the tree as it is and advised.  This shows that god gives all the
freedom with the commandments.  The human has all the freedom to do
the evil and the good.  So the creator gave the future of the life in
the hands of the creation and the creation has all the freedom to
select either it needs a heavenly life or a devilish life.

Everything is available in this earth.  The earthly life may influence
to break all the commandments of God.  Breaking the commandments may
give many type of instant happiness. Select the good ones of the earth
and avoid the evils and that is wise.  Every human has all the freedom
to select whether they have to obey those or to be away from those.

God sent the Son to teach us, Jesus taught His commandments.  Jesus
came down as an ordinary human being and led the life and showed us
everything that a human being has to do to be in the kingdom of God.
An everlasting life with God. To get the everlasting title "The
Children of God".  It is in our hand to select do we need it or not.
Each of us has the full freedom to select it.

Everybody likes to get heaven, everybody likes to be the children of
God, and everybody likes to get the heavenly life in eternal life.  It
is truth that every reward shall have a commitment and service behind
it.  So it is the time for a self-evaluation about our merit, our
service, and our eligibility to get the reward.  Take a moment of your
own and do a self evaluation and if does not give a satisfactory
result and score, need not be worried because our Savior is so kind,
our god is the God of forgiveness.  Only restriction is that you have
to repent and ask for forgiveness from the heart.  So be happy even
you are not eligible for the reward because still there is chance for
improvement.  Instead of making the heart hard make it soft and pray
to God then God will show you everything and He will give you all the
answers.

If your unconditional freedom led you to sin, repent for that and pray
to God with a clear heart and commit to work obey God's commandment.
That makes you the privilege to become the child of God and it makes
you top vanish all your problems and it shall brighten you with light
of God and you shall be the blessed one.

Brother George,

What do you propose to replace the Priest and Church with?  What
would be put in place of Holy Tradition?

Would it be your own private interpretation of Scripture?  Would you
reduce Truth to the size of your own brain?

You seem to view the Church in a very secular fashion:  you pay your
money and expect the services, just like you would a dry cleaner or
a roofing contractor.

This may be a form of secular "hubris", of pride, thinking that you
can figure everything out yourself without the benefit of
spiritual "gurus", of experienced men and women who know more than
you do, the Saints of old, the "living stones" which give us a check
and balance on spiritual pride.

I'm afraid that your vision of an "updated" church would greatly
diminish the Churches richness and, as a result, would diminish the
spiritual lives of the faithful.

Douglas Brandow

Post your doubts with real identity.  Hiding identity is feminist.
And you know already the questions that you raised are baseless and
just it created to waste somebody,s time and it raised from your blind
love towaeds the foreign supremacy.

Posting message from a hidden  identity is certainly feminine.
Not aswering the questions too will  appear to be feminine.

Why don't we have this group moderated?
So unwanted mails can be filtered.
If we wish to have this group unmoderated , we will have to give an
answer (if we know the answer).

At times , stupid question would look like genuine one , and can
create doubts in the reader's mind.
I also feel that Manoj was posting questions with preconceived plans.
But it will be better if we answer the questions and CLEAR his and
other's doubts.

I am a new member to this group and sorry if I missed anything.

Regards
Jacob
--------------------
--- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "padanayakan"
<padanayakan@y...> wrote:
>
> Post your doubts with real identity.  Hiding identity is feminist.
> And you know already the questions that you raised are baseless and
> just it created to waste somebody,s time and it raised from your blind
> love towaeds the foreign supremacy.

Dear brother Douglas,

Thank you for your response to my posting about our church. I am an
ordinary layman. A man may use only 5% of his brain in his whole
life. What I have told you is the science. So if am able to use 6%
of my "small" brain it is an achievement.  The main reason that man
is not using his brain is that he is lazy and worldly. If you try to
use a little more of your brain, you may understand what I am trying
to deliver. If you are hanging around the church for the sake of
getting admitted to heaven, please read this.

He also says,

  "In the beginning, O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands. [Hebrews: 1:10] They
will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
[Hebrews: 1:11] You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment
they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will
never end". [Hebrews: 1:12]. If the heavens will perish, what are
you going to get from the church? I do not pray, (I believe in my
deeds) otherwise I could pray for your good understanding.

George Varghese
Abu Dhabi.

Manoj George wrote:

"2. Why is the Devalokam Orthodox church hanging on to the Parumala
Church and properties when the deed is clearly in the name of the
patriarch of antioch ?"

Parumala church and property belonging to Damascus Orthodox Church? This
is certainly news to me. Have you personally seen the title deed of
Parumala church? If yes then please publish more info so that we can be
better informed. Or publish the source on which your claim is based.
Else one can safely assume that this is nothing but your imaginations
running wild.


Cherian

Dear List Moderator/List owner

Can the group settings be modified so that any member can respond to a
posting by simply clicking on "Reply" and then "Send" on their email
program? Currently it sends the reply to the list owner and not the
group.


+ Prayers +


Cherian



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is Sabbath and how man can keep Sabbath Holy?

We believe the creation was completed in seven days. According to
Christian believes, God had created the universe and finally the man
in six days and on the seventh day God had taken rest. Henceforth
seventh day is considered as Sabbath and man taught to keep the
Sabbath holy. Along with the growth and development of human through
education, man always tried to understand the hidden meaning of the
number seven. We will have a quick look at some of the human studies
of number seven
The seven races of humanity.
The Seven Wonders of the World.
The seven created planets.
The seven stars of Pleiades.
 
The moon passes through seven days of increase, seven days full,
seven in its decrease and seven in its renewal or four times seven
twenty-eight days in full.
The seven days of a week.
The seven tones of human voice.
The seven chords in instrumental music.
The lyre has seven strings.
There are seven major colors.
 
A child born at the seventh month has good a chance of life as a
child born at the natural period of nine months.
While in the womb the child takes on seven distinct formations.
The body has seven distinct parts, the head, chest, abdomen, two
legs and two arms.
There are seven opening in the head, two nostrils, two eyes, two
ears and the mouth. These seven opening in the head correspond to
the seven creative planets, according to astrology.
There are seven internal organs, heart, liver, stomach, lungs,
spleen and the two kidneys.
Menstruation in women comes in a series of four times seven or
twenty eight days.
When a child is born the seventh hour decides whether it will live.
At the end of seven days the navel cord falls away.
In twice seven days the eyes follow a light.
In thrice seven days the head begins to turn.
In seven months the teeth make their appearance. At the end of seven
years the second set comes.
After the second seven years  - puberty.
At the third seven years - manhood
At the fourth seven - cessation of growth.
At the fifth seven - the prime of strength.
At the sixth seven - maturity of the mind.
At the seventh seven - the highest stage of completion both
physically and mentally.
At the eighth seven - the summit of the life is reached .
At the ninth seven declines commences.
At the tenth seven the words of the Bible begin to be fulfilled ----
  " man's life is a span of threescore years and ten  ---- after that
his life is one of weariness."
Rome, called "the eternal city" , was built on seven hills.
We read of the seven "days" or ages of creation.
The seven Heavens.
The seven thrones.
The seven Seals.
The seven Churches.
The seven days march round the Walls of Jericho, and on the "seventh
day" the wall fell.
In Revelation we read of the  "seven spirits of God sent forth into
all the earth".
Ezekiel speaks of "the seven angels of the Lord that go to and fro
through the whole earth", possibly a reference to the magnetic
influences of the seven creative planets.
The ancient Magi from the relative length of the distances of the
seven Creative planets from the earth constructed the vowel symbols
which are the root of all languages, Moon,  a;  Mercury, e; Venus,
ee;   Sun, i;    Mars, o;   Jupiter, u;     Saturn, oo.
There are seven minerals in the earth corresponding to the seven
planets: Moon, silver; Mercury, quicksilver; Venus, copper; Sun,
gold; Mars, iron; Jupiter, pewter or tin Saturn, lead.
A mysterious period based on the number seven may be seen underlying
the Jewish religion, and running through all Hebrew history. In
Deuteronomy vii. 6, it is stated: "the Lord thy God hath chosen thee
to be a special people". We can therefore grasp the idea that as the
number seven was intended to play such an important part in the
history of such a people it must have a distinct meaning in the
divine plan of creation.
On account of the importance of number seven, life periods on the
hand (Palmistry ) correspond to the number of seven for the dates of
events on the Lines of Heart, Head and Fate.
Human studies continue to reveal the hidden meaning of the number
seven.
Let us have a closer look into the seven days of creation. We will
be able to get a clear idea about the seven days of creation by
studying the meaning of the seven-pointed star of King Solomon.
       
.                             
I AM UNABLE TO POST THE SEVEN POINTED STAR OF KING SOLOMON HERE AS
THE SYSTEM DOES NOT ACCETP IT IF ANY ONE INTERSTED TO SEE IT PLEASE
ADVICE YOUR E-MAIL ID..TKS
OR THE ELDER DO NEECESSRY ARRANGEMETS TO POST IT
                             

                           

                           


The meaning of the lines of the star being:  that Life starts from
the Sun proceeds to the Moon, from that to Mars, from Mars to
Mercury, Mercury to Jupiter, from Jupiter to Venus, Venus to Saturn,
from Saturn ( the symbol of death ) to the Sun again or God from
whence it came.
The order of the lines of the star is the order of the births of a
spirit in one cycle. The life starts from the Sun and completes one
cycle  with Saturn at the seventh birth. The spirit goes back to the
origin if it neutralized the karmic effects.
The numbers given beside the planets in the picture are the numbers
represents the planets in numerology. If you bring the date of birth
of any person to a single digit number, you will be able to
understand the number of the birth of the person at the present
cycle. e.g.:-  19 of any month of any year is a date of birth of a
person, if add 1+9 = 10 and 1+0= 1, we get number 1 as a single
digit number . In the above example number one means it represents
the planet Sun and the life originate from Sun. So this is a first
birth in this cycle. If the date of birth is 26, 2+6=8,  and the
eight represents the planet Saturn and   considered as the last
birth of a cycle and it is the seventh birth as per the picture.
Seventh day means last day of the week and it is considered as the
Sabbath day. Here the seventh birth means the last birth of a cycle.
Man should keep it holy in order to go back to the origin. 
Let us look in to 4th of the 10 commandments.
" Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God
has commanded you [Deuteromonoy  5.12]. Six days you shall labor and
do all you work [Duet 5.13] but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the
LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work either you nor your
son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox,
your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien with in your
gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest as you do
[Duet 5.14]. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the
LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an
outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to
observe the Sabbath day. [Duet 5.15]
Please remember what I have mentioned in chapter " What is the
relation between God and man", at the time of Old Testament, the
human were forced to practice the self decipline or self control.
Let us look what are the changes takes places to Sabbath with Jesus
Christ.
Then he said to them "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the
Sabbath [Mark 2.27]. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath
[Mark 2.28].
" At the time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. 
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and
eat them. [Mathew 12.1] When the Pharisees saw this, they said to
him "Look! Your disciples are doing what is lawful on the Sabbath"
[Mathew 12.2]
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his
companions were hungry? [Mathew 12.3] He enters the house of God,
and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread, which was not
lawful for them to do, but only for the priests [Mathew 12.4].  Or
haven't you read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the
temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?  [Mathew 12.5]. I
tell you that one grater than the temple is here. [Mathew 12.6] If
you had known what these words mean, I desire Mercy not Sacrifice",
you would not have condemned the innocent [Mathew 12.7] " For the
son of man is the Lord of Sabbath"{ [Mathew 12.8].
Going on from that place he went into their synagogue [Mathew 12.9]
and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason on
to accuse Jesus, they asked him, is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath
[Mathew 12.10] He said to them "If any of you has a sheep and it
falls in to a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and
lift it out? [Mathew 12.11] How much more valuable is a man than a
sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" [Mathew
12.12] Then he said to the man, "stretch out your hand". So he
stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as
the other. [Mathew 12.13]
We, being the most educated and advanced human up on the earth, let
us observe the Sabbath as follows. Since the spirit have to go back
to the origin {the origin means  God,  and God is the purest form of
spirit } after the seventh birth, the sprit in human have to get
purified in order to join the entire existence of the spirit {God}.
I have mentioned in one of the earlier chapters that the soul
{spirit} carry forward the Karmic effects of each birth. The Karmic
effects of the spirit should be neutralized by the seventh birth in
order to go back to the origin. The less Karmic effects you carry
forward in each birth, the easier will be the process of
neutralizing in seventh birth. Other wise it will be too hard for a
human to suffer at the last birth of a cycle.
So the Sabbath doesn't mean that you should not work at the seventh
day of a week, but it means that you should not do any thing bad on
the seventh birth because the karmic neutralizing will be affected.
Seventh birth means those who born on 8th, 17th or 26th of any month
of any year.