Excellent points. Thank you very much for the guidance!

Dave



--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr
<xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> I'd say just stick with the NKJV for now.  I find it is easy to fall
into a
> series of arguments against each translation that ends in simply not
reading
> the Bible.  Like I said, I use the KJV, but I also have the OSB and
an RSV,
> as well my old NIV.  Reading the wrong translation won't keep you
from being
> Orthodox, of course, neither will reading the 'right translation'
make you
> Orthodox.
>
> If you were going to put your money anywhere, buy a prayer book.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:35 PM, randall hay <stortford@...>wrote:
>
> >   Sounds like that modern Greek text isn't from LXX...no use beating
> > around in those bushes.
> >
> > The OSB Old Testament is based on the LXX rather than the Hebrew.
> >
> > The NT is the NKJ....but there are precious few differences
between that
> > and the Orthodox texts. I read a chapter or so a day in Greek from
the text
> > used in the KJV along with St John Chrysostom's commentary, and
> > discrepancies between my text and the text St John was using in
the fourth
> > century are extremely rare...not really worth bothering about, at
least in
> > my opinion.
> >
> > I haven't done a whole lot of reading in the OSB Old Testament,
but what
> > I've read is extremely helpful. The fathers aren't cited (which
would have
> > been nice, but taken more space)....but the study notes I've read
> > encapsulate what the fathers say.
> >
> > A few years ago (before the complete OSB was out) my spiritual
father had
> > me read the OSB New Testament study notes. I thought it was a strange
> > suggestion, since I was reading the fathers pretty much every
day...but
> > after actually doing it I found it extremely valuable; the study
notes are
> > written by people who have gone through the various fathers
prayerfully.
> > I've never found an OSB footnote that contradicted the fathers,
Old or New
> > Testament.
> >
> > Some people prefer the Orthodox New Testament, published by Holy
Apostles
> > Convent. This uses the KJV with occasional alterations to clarify the
> > nuances of Greek and incorporate the minor differences based on
the Greek
> > texts...there are endnotes (not footnotes!) after each book with
patristic
> > commentaries.
> > I use this occasionally to supplement my resources....there is
good stuff
> > from the fathers at the end of each book, though not for every verse.
> >
> > I grew up on the RSV, and did some NIV in seminary....both are ghastly
> > paraphrases, though the RSV isn't meant to be. Many passages in
the RSV
> > translations butcher the Greek text, and give a meaning that is quite
> > contrary to that St John Chrysostom and the other fathers saw.
> >
> > In Christ,
> >
> > Subdeacon Randy
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Dave W. <dkwiech@... <dkwiech%40yahoo.com>>
> > To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:36:21 PM
> > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Online Orthodox Bible Commentary?
> >
> > You brought up a good point, about the "best" English translation
of the
> > Bible from the Orthodox perspective. I know that there is the new OSB
> > that you mentioned, which just came out a few months ago. They
claim to
> > have translated directly from the LXX, but your comments seems to put
> > that into question. Being raised LCMS, but strongly leaning
Orthodox, I
> > want to make sure I put my money towards the right study Bible. The
> > Concordia Study Bible I have is NIV and is not what I expected it
to be.
> > Given the economy, I don't want to put my money in the wrong
place. Your
> > best advice for the best Orthodox study Bible would be greatly
> > appreciated. As far as non-study Bibles, I have many, including my
> > preferred NKJV (I enjoy the "poetic flow" of the language as well as
> > it's relative accuracy) and I have a complete NRSV copy of the
> > Deuterocanonical books, printed by Cambridge Univ. Press, but
again, the
> > only study Bible I have is Concordia NIV.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Christopher Orr
> >
> > <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Textual transmission is an odd thing - especially in colloquial
> > languages
> > > and especially in Greek and Russia and other 'Orthodox languages'
> > since they
> > > tended to be suspect due to their connection with Protestants.
> > >
> > > I would tend to say that it won't be much different than reading a
> > > Protestant translation of the Bible, whether it has or doesn't have
> > all the
> > > Deuterocanonical books. I wouldn't worry too much - the vast bulk of
> > what
> > > you are reading will be 'close enough'. While the RSV isn't fully
> > > 'Orthodoxy', neither is the KJV, NKJV or even the new OSB (which
isn't
> > > really a translation of the Septuagint and doesn't present the
> > Byzantine
> > > recension of the NT). But, they're all read by Orthodox and in the
> > Orthodox
> > > church, so they aren't all bad.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in finding a fully Orthodox translation of the
> > Bible
> > > in Modern Greek, I would look to something sold by the Greek
> > Archdiocese,
> > > the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, or one of the
> > Theological
> > > Academies in Greece (Athens or Thessaloniki) . If you want
specifics,
> > I can
> > > probably get them for you from my Greek priest.
> > >
> > > But, like I said, there is no 'official' Orthodox text in
English, so
> > unless
> > > your Modern Greek version is published by the Jehovah's Witnesses or
> > > something, I wouldn't worry. I use the KJV with Apocrypha and that
> > was
> > > published by Brits, too.
> > >
> > > Christopher
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Dave W. dkwiech@ wrote:
> > >
> > > > In an attempt to stay in the same sort-of topic, I have the
> > following
> > > > question, this one about Bible source texts:
> > > >
> > > > I have a Bible (OT & NT), written in Modern Greek that I'd like to
> > > > know the source texts for. The Bible doesn't have a published
date,
> > > > but the publishing house is in Athens, although the Bible was
> > printed
> > > > by The British & Foreign Bible Society in Oxford, England. Being
> > that
> > > > the Bible is entirely in Modern Greek, I would think that its
source
> > > > would be the LXX, but the list of books appears to be more Western
> > (no
> > > > "Apocryphal" books, for example). Is it possible that it's another
> > > > western Bible, based on the Masoretic texts for the OT, and then
> > > > translated back into Modern Greek? That would be a disappointment.
> > > > I've searched the ISBN online and had no luck finding more detail
> > > > about sources, and the Bible itself has no introductory pages.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com<LutheransLookingEa
st%40yahoogroups
> > .\
> > com>,
> > > > Harry William Reineke IV
> > > >
> > > > kd5tmu@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Complete OSB is available. Visit your local Orthodox parish
> > with a
> > > > > bookstore and you can pick one up!
> > > > >
> > > > > Harry
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Bennett wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Orthodox Study Bible might be a good addition to your
> > library.
> > > > > > It's stilll NT only, I believe. You can browse on
amazon.com and
> > get
> > > > > > the idea of its contents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike Bennett
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 11/21/08, solascriptura1971
> > no_reply@yahoogroup s.com<no_reply%40yahoogr oups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:no_reply% <no_reply%25> 40yahoogroups. com
> > <no_reply%2540yahoo groups.com> >>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: solascriptura1971
> > no_reply@yahoogroup s.com<no_reply%40yahoogr oups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:no_reply% <no_reply%25> 40yahoogroups. com
> > <no_reply%2540yahoo groups.com> >>
> > > > > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Online Orthodox Bible
> > Commentary?
> > > > > > To:
> > LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com<LutheransLookingEa
st%40yahoogroups
> > .\
> > com>
> > > > > >
> > <mailto:LutheransLo okingEast% 40yahoogroups. com<LutheransLoo
kingEast%
> > 2540\
> > yahoogroups. com>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 8:42 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello, I recently joined this group to get a better
> > understanding of
> > > > > > Eastern Orthodoxy. Does anyone know of an online Eastern
> > Orthodox
> > > > > > Bible commentary? If there isn't one online, can anyone
> > recommend a
> > > > > > good reference that is available for purchase?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the assistance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In Christ,
> > > > > > Bobby
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

When reading the lives of saints one finds many echoes and parallels across
time.  One can chalk this up to hagiography or borrowing, or one can see
that the spiritual life has patterns (we aren't all as different and unique
as we like to think).  Some patterns are more common in some cultures than
others.  For example, there weren't a lot of Sylites in Russia, there were
peculiarities in Syrian monasticism, Passion bearers were very common in
Russia, Fools for Christ common in some days over others.

St. John of Damascus wrote the lives of Sts Ioasaph and Barlaam, which is
the story you are referring to.  St. John is commemorated on the LCMS
calendar, too.  I don't think the story idealizes particularly Buddhist
doctrines, even if it does retell the Christian portion of the story of the
Buddha, in Christian form to Christian ends.  Perhaps it is simply a parable
using non-Christian source material in the way Greek and Roman mythologies
have been used to express Christian truths.  Then again, perhaps this was
merely a spiritual pattern common or noteworthy in Indian culture that was
repeated by the Sts the Damascene tells us of.  The whole 'Go West, young
man' / roadtrip / 'On the Road' thing is an American trope; this may be an
Indian trope.  I can't remember if they are commemorated on the calendar or
not.

Christopher



On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

>   I don't know how to nicely ask this, but I found an interesting story
> about the Venerable Joasaph the Prince of India at the following OCA
> site:
> http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=103329 and
> I need to ask if the description of this man is not uncannily like
> that of Gautama Buddha, who lived much earlier. Is it possible that
> the converted Indians wrapped some of the story of Buddha's life into
> the life of Saint Joasaph? Is that something their culture would do,
> or is something else going on here? I would hope that the OC would
> never consider calling the Buddha a Christian Saint. That would call
> into question the validity of Saints across the board. Forgive me, if
> this isn't exactly an Lutheran-Orthodox topic, but I am Lutheran and
> inquiring about Orthodox Holy Tradition.
>
> Dave
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for the wonderful clarification. I continue to to be stunned
by the profound knowledge and insight of members on this board, and
you've helped put my mind to rest on that point, Christopher.
Obviously, as a Lutheran I have the built-in need to "dot my i's and
cross my t's" to test everything new. I certainly mean no disrespect
in my questions. I of course want to understand as best I can before I
would take that final leap of faith into the OC, if that is where the
Holy Spirit leads me.

Again, with thanks,

Dave




--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr
<xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> When reading the lives of saints one finds many echoes and parallels
across
> time.  One can chalk this up to hagiography or borrowing, or one can see
> that the spiritual life has patterns (we aren't all as different and
unique
> as we like to think).  Some patterns are more common in some
cultures than
> others.  For example, there weren't a lot of Sylites in Russia,
there were
> peculiarities in Syrian monasticism, Passion bearers were very common in
> Russia, Fools for Christ common in some days over others.
>
> St. John of Damascus wrote the lives of Sts Ioasaph and Barlaam,
which is
> the story you are referring to.  St. John is commemorated on the LCMS
> calendar, too.  I don't think the story idealizes particularly Buddhist
> doctrines, even if it does retell the Christian portion of the story
of the
> Buddha, in Christian form to Christian ends.  Perhaps it is simply a
parable
> using non-Christian source material in the way Greek and Roman
mythologies
> have been used to express Christian truths.  Then again, perhaps
this was
> merely a spiritual pattern common or noteworthy in Indian culture
that was
> repeated by the Sts the Damascene tells us of.  The whole 'Go West,
young
> man' / roadtrip / 'On the Road' thing is an American trope; this may
be an
> Indian trope.  I can't remember if they are commemorated on the
calendar or
> not.
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:
>
> >   I don't know how to nicely ask this, but I found an interesting
story
> > about the Venerable Joasaph the Prince of India at the following OCA
> > site:
> > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=103329 and
> > I need to ask if the description of this man is not uncannily like
> > that of Gautama Buddha, who lived much earlier. Is it possible that
> > the converted Indians wrapped some of the story of Buddha's life into
> > the life of Saint Joasaph? Is that something their culture would do,
> > or is something else going on here? I would hope that the OC would
> > never consider calling the Buddha a Christian Saint. That would call
> > into question the validity of Saints across the board. Forgive me, if
> > this isn't exactly an Lutheran-Orthodox topic, but I am Lutheran and
> > inquiring about Orthodox Holy Tradition.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

"What the priest you mentioned likely 'means' is that the fullness of
Orthodoxy is definitely and 'safely','provenly' to be found in the
Church and rites of the East and would be the'safest' course of action."

I understand your point, and better understand now what the OCA priest
was telling me. Sometimes it's hard for me to "hear" when I think I'm
listening.

At any rate, I did want to follow up on this topic about finding the
right parish. My wife and I visited a Western Orthodox (Antiochian)
church yesterday and were SO impressed. It was a bit of a drive, but
the priest was wonderful, kind, and understanding, and took 1.5 hours
of time to speak with us. He has a good solid understanding of the
Catholic (wife)/Lutheran (me) backgrounds we come from and could view
things from our perspective. Funny thing is, the church was originally
built by LCMS Lutherans! HA! Granted the style is more along the lines
of Catholic/Anglican with icons and incense, but we both felt very
comfortable. We'll be going back as soon as possible. He also invited
us to the pan-Orthodox Great-Lenten celebration at the big Greek
Orthodox cathedral downtown on March 8th. I'm looking forward to it!

Dave


--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr
<xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> "...Western Rite isn't "quite Orthodox" and that the "real Church"
is only
> in the East.  That  brought to mind a point that has always troubled me
> about the Orthodox Church: that there tends to be a nationalist bent at
> times, or that I can't belong because I'm not Greek, Russian,
Serbian, etc."
>
>
> I think there are two separate issues here, which it is important to
tease
> out.
>
> First, nationalism is not the same as being culturally Orthodox,
even in an
> American context.  I don't think any of us would expect a new
immigrant to
> immediately 'become American' and turn their back on their language and
> tradition.  Our own families struggled with this same thing - how to
retain
> their _______ heritage in multicultural America, do we pass on the
language,
> religion and tradition, if so, how and which ones?  These are not easy
> questions, regardless of culture.  Many people see the Church as part of
> their heritage, their birthright, and it is a part of their cultural
> history.  This is not a bad thing.  In fact, many people return to the
> church as adults and find things there they never even knew existed as
> nominal Orthodox or as children/adolescents.  Kyriacos Markides's recent
> books on Cyprus and 'Father Maximos' show this.
>
> That being said, nationalism is a problem in Orthodoxy.  I define this
> negative aspect more as 'ethnicism' than nationalism.  It becomes
negative
> when the church is no longer serving the needs of newer immigrants,
but in
> becoming the repository and standard-bearer of culture, language,
etc. to
> the detriment of the church's true mission, which has no ethnicity.  The
> vision is lost that each parish is meant to be The Orthodox Church
for all
> peoples in that region, city, neighborhood - and not just to be the
Church
> for those of _________ heritage.  This may be appropriate when
dealing with
> mass immigrations (like Eastern Europeans after the fall of
Communism) or in
> rather homogeneous ethnic Orthodox communities (as Astoria, Queens
was not
> so long ago).  As times goes by, however, their has been a temptation to
> fossilize each community in the past - which could be the 70s, the
50s, or
> the way their community (not necessarily the church alone) was back
home;
> this often includes language and other cultural affairs.
>
> I have found that I only feel foreign and excluded when in a
community of
> Orthodox worshiping in a language other than English - but only when
i know
> most everyone there understands English and doesn't understand
_________.  I
> also don't feel excluded when smatterings of other languages are used
> throughout the service - especially the Litanies as there are so
many and
> they are repeated so often - as a sort of tip of the hat to the various
> ethnicities that may be present.  (My parish in NYC worships
primarily in
> English, with smatterings of Slavonic [for Russians, Ukrainians and
Serbs],
> Georgian, Romanian and Greek.)
>
> Second, the Western Rite has had a checkered history in Orthodoxy
over the
> past 150 years or so.  Many Western Rite parishes and communities have
> hopped around, left communion with the other churches, been
disciplined and
> left of their own accord, etc.  As Gabriel of the Going Along blog once
> wrote, 'We know what an Orthodox Greek, Russian and Romanian looks
like, we
> don't yet really know what a 'successful' American Orthodox looks like
> yet'.  Time will tell; the proof will be in the pudding.  The
Western Rite
> is still sort of like that for many Orthodox - they are wary of it
due to
> the theology underpinning its use, the fact that it is associated with
> heterodox theology (lex orandi est lex credendi calls its use into
> question), it checkered history ('by its fruit you shall know it')
and the
> fact that most of the local Churches do not accept it.  That being
said, it
> has been supported by a number of local Orthodox churches (Moscow
[before
> the Revolution and after], ROCOR, Antioch] and by esteemed saints (Sts.
> Tikhon of Moscow and John of SF).  What the priest you mentioned likely
> 'means' is that the fullness of Orthodoxy is definitely and 'safely',
> 'provenly' to be found in the Church and rites of the East and would
be the
> 'safest' course of action.  One can argue with the position both for and
> against the Western Rite, but no one on either side questions the
'validity'
> or 'canonicity' of the Western Rite.  There were many Eastern and
Western
> Rites in times past, but a move towards unification of practice has been
> underway for centuries and centuries - in fact, many Eastern
practices were
> adopted by the West (the Kyrie [Greek] is but an obvious example).
These
> past Christians did not feel the need to remove themselves from the
Church
> for the sake of their Rite.
>
> Finally, foreigness of Rite should always be referred back to the
experience
> of past conversions.  Should the Greco-Roman world never have
converted to
> Christianity because it was 'too Jewish' and they were Greeks and
Romans?
> Should the Russians have never accepted Orthodoxy because it was too
Greek,
> or the Celts and Germans Christianity because it was too Roman?
There is a
> universality in the particularity of each traditional, living Rite.  The
> question is whether it is the Church, not whether it's the prettiest
or the
> most aesthetically pleasing.  Fr. Roman Braga served Liturgy with
water and
> moldy bread on his own chest when the Communists buried him alive to
die, so
> he thought.  This was every bit as much the Divine Liturgy as the most
> magnificent Liturgy served in Hagia Sophia in the first century -
but it was
> ugly and terrible, aesthetically.  It is a temptation for Americans
to think
> of inquiring into the Church as if it were akin to shopping.  The Church
> isn't here primarily to serve what we think we need or prefer, but
to raise
> us from the dead and save us, to sanctify the world in prayer and
worship:
> it's work.  I don't like a lot of things about hospitals, but when I
break
> my leg that's where I go; when I'm dying, I don't care how
uncomfortable I
> am, just that they save me.
>
> The Lord bless your inquiry, and that of your wife.
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:
>
> >   I'm an LCMS Lutheran seriously looking into Orthodoxy and have
gone to
> > many Vespers and occasional Divine Liturgy services at an OCA church
> > in my area. The reason I selected that particular church was the fact
> > that they stated a large percentage of members were converts, which I
> > thought might ease the transition. My wife has come with me from time
> > to time, but is very overwhelmed by the Eastern "foreignness" of the
> > worship. I was thinking that perhaps a Western Rite Orthodox parish
> > might be an easier transition for her, since my Lutheran and her Roman
> > Catholic upbringings are more similar to that. Trouble is, the priest
> > at the OCA parish I'd been visiting told me that Western Rite isn't
> > "quite Orthodox" and that the "real Church" is only in the East. That
> > brought to mind a point that has always troubled me about the Orthodox
> > Church: that there tends to be a nationalist bent at times, or that I
> > can't belong because I'm not Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. I spent 2
> > years in Russia and visited Divine Liturgy often, Easter Vigil, etc,
> > and was profoundly moved, but here in the US I am not accepted into
> > the Russian parishes, since I'm not Russian, despite being rather
> > proficient in the language, even Slavonic. How do I find the best path
> > that will also be easier for my wife to accept? Worshiping separately
> > from her is not my preference.
> >
> > Sorry about the long post, and thanks for the help.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

That's great.  I meant to write again and make sure you understand that
there is nothing 'wrong' with a Western Rite parish, I was just giving the
argument for Eastern Rite - which is often heard.  For instance, Fr. John
Fenton is a WR priest in Detroit, a former LCMS pastor, the #2 man in the
Antiochian WR Vicariate and good man.  I have no real experience with the
western rite; the eastern rite was just as 'foreign' to me as would be an
old time Tridentine or Book of Common prayer Mass.

The Lord bless your journies.

Christopher



On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

>   "What the priest you mentioned likely 'means' is that the fullness of
> Orthodoxy is definitely and 'safely','provenly' to be found in the
> Church and rites of the East and would be the'safest' course of action."
>
> I understand your point, and better understand now what the OCA priest
> was telling me. Sometimes it's hard for me to "hear" when I think I'm
> listening.
>
> At any rate, I did want to follow up on this topic about finding the
> right parish. My wife and I visited a Western Orthodox (Antiochian)
> church yesterday and were SO impressed. It was a bit of a drive, but
> the priest was wonderful, kind, and understanding, and took 1.5 hours
> of time to speak with us. He has a good solid understanding of the
> Catholic (wife)/Lutheran (me) backgrounds we come from and could view
> things from our perspective. Funny thing is, the church was originally
> built by LCMS Lutherans! HA! Granted the style is more along the lines
> of Catholic/Anglican with icons and incense, but we both felt very
> comfortable. We'll be going back as soon as possible. He also invited
> us to the pan-Orthodox Great-Lenten celebration at the big Greek
> Orthodox cathedral downtown on March 8th. I'm looking forward to it!
>
> Dave
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Christopher Orr
>
> <xcjorr@...> wrote:
> >
> > "...Western Rite isn't "quite Orthodox" and that the "real Church"
> is only
> > in the East. That brought to mind a point that has always troubled me
> > about the Orthodox Church: that there tends to be a nationalist bent at
> > times, or that I can't belong because I'm not Greek, Russian,
> Serbian, etc."
> >
> >
> > I think there are two separate issues here, which it is important to
> tease
> > out.
> >
> > First, nationalism is not the same as being culturally Orthodox,
> even in an
> > American context. I don't think any of us would expect a new
> immigrant to
> > immediately 'become American' and turn their back on their language and
> > tradition. Our own families struggled with this same thing - how to
> retain
> > their _______ heritage in multicultural America, do we pass on the
> language,
> > religion and tradition, if so, how and which ones? These are not easy
> > questions, regardless of culture. Many people see the Church as part of
> > their heritage, their birthright, and it is a part of their cultural
> > history. This is not a bad thing. In fact, many people return to the
> > church as adults and find things there they never even knew existed as
> > nominal Orthodox or as children/adolescents. Kyriacos Markides's recent
> > books on Cyprus and 'Father Maximos' show this.
> >
> > That being said, nationalism is a problem in Orthodoxy. I define this
> > negative aspect more as 'ethnicism' than nationalism. It becomes
> negative
> > when the church is no longer serving the needs of newer immigrants,
> but in
> > becoming the repository and standard-bearer of culture, language,
> etc. to
> > the detriment of the church's true mission, which has no ethnicity. The
> > vision is lost that each parish is meant to be The Orthodox Church
> for all
> > peoples in that region, city, neighborhood - and not just to be the
> Church
> > for those of _________ heritage. This may be appropriate when
> dealing with
> > mass immigrations (like Eastern Europeans after the fall of
> Communism) or in
> > rather homogeneous ethnic Orthodox communities (as Astoria, Queens
> was not
> > so long ago). As times goes by, however, their has been a temptation to
> > fossilize each community in the past - which could be the 70s, the
> 50s, or
> > the way their community (not necessarily the church alone) was back
> home;
> > this often includes language and other cultural affairs.
> >
> > I have found that I only feel foreign and excluded when in a
> community of
> > Orthodox worshiping in a language other than English - but only when
> i know
> > most everyone there understands English and doesn't understand
> _________. I
> > also don't feel excluded when smatterings of other languages are used
> > throughout the service - especially the Litanies as there are so
> many and
> > they are repeated so often - as a sort of tip of the hat to the various
> > ethnicities that may be present. (My parish in NYC worships
> primarily in
> > English, with smatterings of Slavonic [for Russians, Ukrainians and
> Serbs],
> > Georgian, Romanian and Greek.)
> >
> > Second, the Western Rite has had a checkered history in Orthodoxy
> over the
> > past 150 years or so. Many Western Rite parishes and communities have
> > hopped around, left communion with the other churches, been
> disciplined and
> > left of their own accord, etc. As Gabriel of the Going Along blog once
> > wrote, 'We know what an Orthodox Greek, Russian and Romanian looks
> like, we
> > don't yet really know what a 'successful' American Orthodox looks like
> > yet'. Time will tell; the proof will be in the pudding. The
> Western Rite
> > is still sort of like that for many Orthodox - they are wary of it
> due to
> > the theology underpinning its use, the fact that it is associated with
> > heterodox theology (lex orandi est lex credendi calls its use into
> > question), it checkered history ('by its fruit you shall know it')
> and the
> > fact that most of the local Churches do not accept it. That being
> said, it
> > has been supported by a number of local Orthodox churches (Moscow
> [before
> > the Revolution and after], ROCOR, Antioch] and by esteemed saints (Sts.
> > Tikhon of Moscow and John of SF). What the priest you mentioned likely
> > 'means' is that the fullness of Orthodoxy is definitely and 'safely',
> > 'provenly' to be found in the Church and rites of the East and would
> be the
> > 'safest' course of action. One can argue with the position both for and
> > against the Western Rite, but no one on either side questions the
> 'validity'
> > or 'canonicity' of the Western Rite. There were many Eastern and
> Western
> > Rites in times past, but a move towards unification of practice has been
> > underway for centuries and centuries - in fact, many Eastern
> practices were
> > adopted by the West (the Kyrie [Greek] is but an obvious example).
> These
> > past Christians did not feel the need to remove themselves from the
> Church
> > for the sake of their Rite.
> >
> > Finally, foreigness of Rite should always be referred back to the
> experience
> > of past conversions. Should the Greco-Roman world never have
> converted to
> > Christianity because it was 'too Jewish' and they were Greeks and
> Romans?
> > Should the Russians have never accepted Orthodoxy because it was too
> Greek,
> > or the Celts and Germans Christianity because it was too Roman?
> There is a
> > universality in the particularity of each traditional, living Rite. The
> > question is whether it is the Church, not whether it's the prettiest
> or the
> > most aesthetically pleasing. Fr. Roman Braga served Liturgy with
> water and
> > moldy bread on his own chest when the Communists buried him alive to
> die, so
> > he thought. This was every bit as much the Divine Liturgy as the most
> > magnificent Liturgy served in Hagia Sophia in the first century -
> but it was
> > ugly and terrible, aesthetically. It is a temptation for Americans
> to think
> > of inquiring into the Church as if it were akin to shopping. The Church
> > isn't here primarily to serve what we think we need or prefer, but
> to raise
> > us from the dead and save us, to sanctify the world in prayer and
> worship:
> > it's work. I don't like a lot of things about hospitals, but when I
> break
> > my leg that's where I go; when I'm dying, I don't care how
> uncomfortable I
> > am, just that they save me.
> >
> > The Lord bless your inquiry, and that of your wife.
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm an LCMS Lutheran seriously looking into Orthodoxy and have
> gone to
> > > many Vespers and occasional Divine Liturgy services at an OCA church
> > > in my area. The reason I selected that particular church was the fact
> > > that they stated a large percentage of members were converts, which I
> > > thought might ease the transition. My wife has come with me from time
> > > to time, but is very overwhelmed by the Eastern "foreignness" of the
> > > worship. I was thinking that perhaps a Western Rite Orthodox parish
> > > might be an easier transition for her, since my Lutheran and her Roman
> > > Catholic upbringings are more similar to that. Trouble is, the priest
> > > at the OCA parish I'd been visiting told me that Western Rite isn't
> > > "quite Orthodox" and that the "real Church" is only in the East. That
> > > brought to mind a point that has always troubled me about the Orthodox
> > > Church: that there tends to be a nationalist bent at times, or that I
> > > can't belong because I'm not Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. I spent 2
> > > years in Russia and visited Divine Liturgy often, Easter Vigil, etc,
> > > and was profoundly moved, but here in the US I am not accepted into
> > > the Russian parishes, since I'm not Russian, despite being rather
> > > proficient in the language, even Slavonic. How do I find the best path
> > > that will also be easier for my wife to accept? Worshiping separately
> > > from her is not my preference.
> > >
> > > Sorry about the long post, and thanks for the help.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

My various duties prevent me both from keeping up with the fast
exchange of emails on this list, and from offering long answers.

Rose pointed you to an essay I wrote when I was a Lutheran ("What
Options..."). There is also my statement of resignation in which I
detail, in a broad way, some of the doctrines and practices in
Lutheranism that I determined were contrary to the Faith of the
Church. Both of these items are located at
http://www.holyincarnation.org/inquirers.php. There are also other
items there that you might find helpful.

My journey to Orthodoxy germinated just before I went to seminary and
took nearly 25 years to come to full flower. Many questions, many
fears, many struggles, many prayers and not a few tears watered the
path, as well as a time when I had given up on Orthodoxy. What I've
written is peppered with these experiences.

Please feel free to email me offlist if you wish. Perhaps we can set
a time to speak by telephone, if you find that helpful.


Fr John W Fenton
Assistant to the Vicar General of the Western Rite Vicariate
Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church

Dave,

Let me add the following personal information:

1. My father is an LCMS pastor (retired) who left Catholicism at the
age of 30 to become Lutheran because he was convinced of Luheran
doctrine after reading and studying the Book of Concord. Needless to
say, he was more than a little saddened that his son would reject
what he whole-heartedly accepted.

2. Lutheran pastors and teachers go back quite a way in my family
line (on my mother's said). East Prussian (Pomerania) and Saxon are
in my bloodlines, and there's a rumor that I'm a descendent of Johann
Sebastian Bach (whose music I dearly love).

3. My wife's roots in Lutheranism are even deeper and stronger. She
had much more to work through because, while not atheological, her
loves and loyalties run deep. Needless to say, her parents and
relatives still don't understand.

4. My wife and I are both the product of the Lutheran school system
(elementary, high school, college), and our children went to the
Lutheran schools my wife taught at. Our oldest was 19 when she was
chrismated (a few months before us), and the move was hard on one
child in particular.

Needless to say, on a personal level, becoming Orthodox was not easy.
Yet, in the end, we became Orthodox because we desired that they
attain the kingdom of heaven and not get lost in the shifting "winds
of doctrine" about which St Paul speaks.

Again, feel free to email me (frfenton@...)


Fr Fenton



--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Fr John W Fenton"
<frfenton@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> My various duties prevent me both from keeping up with the fast
> exchange of emails on this list, and from offering long answers.
>
> Rose pointed you to an essay I wrote when I was a Lutheran ("What
> Options..."). There is also my statement of resignation in which I
> detail, in a broad way, some of the doctrines and practices in
> Lutheranism that I determined were contrary to the Faith of the
> Church. Both of these items are located at
> http://www.holyincarnation.org/inquirers.php. There are also other
> items there that you might find helpful.
>
> My journey to Orthodoxy germinated just before I went to seminary
and
> took nearly 25 years to come to full flower. Many questions, many
> fears, many struggles, many prayers and not a few tears watered the
> path, as well as a time when I had given up on Orthodoxy. What I've
> written is peppered with these experiences.
>
> Please feel free to email me offlist if you wish. Perhaps we can
set
> a time to speak by telephone, if you find that helpful.
>
>
> Fr John W Fenton
> Assistant to the Vicar General of the Western Rite Vicariate
> Priest, Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
>

I was wondering at what point in the history of the ancient Church,
the practice of veneration of the Saints/asking for intercession from
them came into being. Can you cite a specific time or instance when
this first came on the scene? I don't see exact references to it in
the Bible, although I have been told or read about some references
therein that strike me as being very indirect. So, I must gather that
the veneration of Saints is part of the oral tradition of the Church.
Or is it mentioned in secondary writings?

Thanks for bearing with my line of inquiry.

Dave

Howdy Dave!

For me it was an "opening of doors" kind of a thing...
I "came to the east from the east."

I had what the Tibetan's called "extraordinary enlightenment"
i.e.; "out of sequence." I then started a 7 year search in order to
find out what had just happened to me.

My search took me through the philosophies of India, Tibet, China
and back to the Desert Fathers. During this search I came up with a
lot of non-English words in my vocabulary to explain some of the
very non-western discoveries that I had made for myself. The priest
at my parish had been a Roman Catholic, then became a Buddhist and
then became an Orthodox priest. We had the same working vocabulary
and I could say in a word what would take half an hour to explain to
anybody else.

That roundabout story is just to tell you that I chose my parish
because I found the right person to introduce me to Orthodoxy. It
happens to be a Greek Orthodox parish that broke away from an older
Greek parish in the community in an attempt to get more English into
the Liturgy for non-Greeks. There also happens to be an OCA church
right around the corner from me.

Who knows where I may be in a year, or ten?

Yet ANOTHER
Dave

There is a great danger in accepting proof from silence.  This is
essentially the argument made by Protestants regarding the invocation of the
saints.

First, they assume that because written documentation has survived the
catacombs in bulk that it must not have existed in the early Church.

Second, they ignore the proof that has survived from the catacombs.  For
example, the inscription in the catacomb of St Priscilla on the Via Balaria:

ANATOLIVS FILIO BENEMERENTI FECIT QUI VIXIT ANNIS VII, MENSIS VII, DIEBUS
>> XX.  ISPIRITVS TVVS BENE REQUIESCAT IN DEO PETAS PRO SORORE TVO  ('Anatolius
>> erected this for his well-deserving son who lived seven years, seven months
>> and twenty days.  May thy soul find rest in God. Pray for thy sister.')
>>
>
> ...on the marble slab that sealed off the remains of the martyr Sabbatius
> buried in the catacomb of Saints Gordian and Epimachus:



> SABBATI DVLCIS ANIMA PETE ET ROGA PRO FRATRES ET SODALES TVOS.  ('O
>> Sabbatius, sweet soul, ask and pray for your brothers and companions.')
>>
>
Third, they assume an almost irreparable break between the Church that
emerged from the catacombs and the Church of the catacombs thereby making
the universal, post-Constantinian practice of the invocation of the saints
'untrustworthy'.

For example, they ignore the witness of the *Second Ecumenical
Council*(Constantinople, 381 AD):

> May God by the prayers of the Saints, show favour to the world, that you
> may be strong and eminent in all good things as an Emperor most truly pious
> and beloved of God. (Letter of the Same Holy Synod to the Most Pious Emperor
> [St.] Theodosius the Great)
>
Or, the witness of other highly regarded saints:

> *St. Ephraim the Syrian* (+373)
>
> Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour
> earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights
> against me day by day.
>
> Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God
> and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye
> saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that
> the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us
> that so we may love him.
>
> *St. Basil the Great*, of Caesarea in Asia Minor (+379)
>
> According to the blameless faith of the Christians which we have obtained
> from God, I confess and agree that I believe in one God the Father Almighty;
> God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost; I adore and worship one
> God, the Three. I confess to the oeconomy of the Son in the flesh, and that
> the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of
> God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I
> invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through
> their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom
> may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the
> features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the
> holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.
>
> We beseech you, O most holy martyrs, who cheerfully suffered torments and
> death for his love, and are now more familiarly united to him, that you
> intercede with God for us slothful and wretched sinners, that he bestow on
> us the grace of Christ, by which we may be enlightened and enabled to love
> him.
>
> O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common
> guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye
> co-operators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors!
>
> *St. Gregory the Theologian* (+390)**
>
> 'St. Peter, pity me, save me, open for me the gate of heaven'.
>
According to George Bebis in his “The Saints of the Orthodox Church”:

> In one of his letters, *St. Basil [the Great]* explicitly writes that he
> accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks
> their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs,
> who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common
> friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent
> prayers. (Chapter 8)
>
> *St. Gregory of Nyssa* asks St. Theodore the Martyr …to fervently pray to
> our Common King, our God, for the country and the people (Encomium to Martyr
> Theodore).
>
> The same language is used by *St. Gregory the Theologian* in his encomium
> to St. Cyprian. St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the
> intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have
> special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to
> Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).
>
*Also:*

> *St. Cyril of Jerusalem* (+386)
> We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first,
> patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and
> intercessions, may receive our petitions.[xiv] St. Gregory the Theologian,
> Patriarch of Constantinople; of Nazianzus in Asia Minor (+389) Mayest thou
> [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and
> life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock . . . gladdening
> us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before
> Which thou standest.
>
> *St. John Chrysostom*, Patriarch of Constantinople; b. Antioch, Syria
> (+407)
>
> When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies .
> . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing
> to Him, and who have great power [parresian, "boldness of speech"].[xxi] He
> that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints
> to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker
> and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead.[xxii]
>
> *St. Augustine of Hippo*, in North Africa (+430)
>
> At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we
> do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may
> pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.
>

To simply disallow these testimonies is to fall into a sort of DaVinci Code
mindset of Constantinian conspiracy and mass apostasy by Christians that had
been willing to die for their faith only years before, but who are now so
cowed by the Empire that they are willing to accept a christianized form of
polytheism.  One can believe this, but not if one believes the Holy Spirit
continued to guide the Church after Pentecost so that the gates of Hell
would not overcome Her.  We can't just 'jump over' thousands of years of
consistent history and practice across political, cultural, linguistic and
even theological boundaries to get at what we assume must be the 'real'
practice of the early Church (which looks an awful lot like a church in our
own, preferred image) without *denying *to God a continuing, providential
activity.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

>   I was wondering at what point in the history of the ancient Church,
> the practice of veneration of the Saints/asking for intercession from
> them came into being. Can you cite a specific time or instance when
> this first came on the scene? I don't see exact references to it in
> the Bible, although I have been told or read about some references
> therein that strike me as being very indirect. So, I must gather that
> the veneration of Saints is part of the oral tradition of the Church.
> Or is it mentioned in secondary writings?
>
> Thanks for bearing with my line of inquiry.
>
> Dave
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christopher, how about posting this on your blog?

Anastasia
e-mail:  anastasiatheo01@...
blog:  http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Christopher Orr
   To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:57 AM
   Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints


   There is a great danger in accepting proof from silence.  This is
   essentially the argument made by Protestants regarding the invocation of the
   saints.

   First, they assume that because written documentation has survived the
   catacombs in bulk that it must not have existed in the early Church.

   Second, they ignore the proof that has survived from the catacombs.  For
   example, the inscription in the catacomb of St Priscilla on the Via Balaria:

   ANATOLIVS FILIO BENEMERENTI FECIT QUI VIXIT ANNIS VII, MENSIS VII, DIEBUS
   >> XX.  ISPIRITVS TVVS BENE REQUIESCAT IN DEO PETAS PRO SORORE TVO 
('Anatolius
   >> erected this for his well-deserving son who lived seven years, seven months
   >> and twenty days.  May thy soul find rest in God. Pray for thy sister.')
   >>
   >
   > ...on the marble slab that sealed off the remains of the martyr Sabbatius
   > buried in the catacomb of Saints Gordian and Epimachus:



   > SABBATI DVLCIS ANIMA PETE ET ROGA PRO FRATRES ET SODALES TVOS.  ('O
   >> Sabbatius, sweet soul, ask and pray for your brothers and companions.')
   >>
   >
   Third, they assume an almost irreparable break between the Church that
   emerged from the catacombs and the Church of the catacombs thereby making
   the universal, post-Constantinian practice of the invocation of the saints
   'untrustworthy'.

   For example, they ignore the witness of the *Second Ecumenical
   Council*(Constantinople, 381 AD):

   > May God by the prayers of the Saints, show favour to the world, that you
   > may be strong and eminent in all good things as an Emperor most truly pious
   > and beloved of God. (Letter of the Same Holy Synod to the Most Pious Emperor
   > [St.] Theodosius the Great)
   >
   Or, the witness of other highly regarded saints:

   > *St. Ephraim the Syrian* (+373)
   >
   > Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour
   > earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights
   > against me day by day.
   >
   > Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God
   > and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye
   > saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that
   > the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us
   > that so we may love him.
   >
   > *St. Basil the Great*, of Caesarea in Asia Minor (+379)
   >
   > According to the blameless faith of the Christians which we have obtained
   > from God, I confess and agree that I believe in one God the Father Almighty;
   > God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost; I adore and worship one
   > God, the Three. I confess to the oeconomy of the Son in the flesh, and that
   > the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of
   > God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I
   > invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through
   > their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom
   > may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the
   > features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the
   > holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.
   >
   > We beseech you, O most holy martyrs, who cheerfully suffered torments and
   > death for his love, and are now more familiarly united to him, that you
   > intercede with God for us slothful and wretched sinners, that he bestow on
   > us the grace of Christ, by which we may be enlightened and enabled to love
   > him.
   >
   > O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common
   > guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye
   > co-operators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors!
   >
   > *St. Gregory the Theologian* (+390)**
   >
   > 'St. Peter, pity me, save me, open for me the gate of heaven'.
   >
   According to George Bebis in his “The Saints of the Orthodox Church”:

   > In one of his letters, *St. Basil [the Great]* explicitly writes that he
   > accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks
   > their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs,
   > who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common
   > friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent
   > prayers. (Chapter 8)
   >
   > *St. Gregory of Nyssa* asks St. Theodore the Martyr …to fervently pray to
   > our Common King, our God, for the country and the people (Encomium to Martyr
   > Theodore).
   >
   > The same language is used by *St. Gregory the Theologian* in his encomium
   > to St. Cyprian. St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the
   > intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have
   > special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to
   > Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).
   >
   *Also:*

   > *St. Cyril of Jerusalem* (+386)
   > We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first,
   > patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and
   > intercessions, may receive our petitions.[xiv] St. Gregory the Theologian,
   > Patriarch of Constantinople; of Nazianzus in Asia Minor (+389) Mayest thou
   > [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and
   > life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock . . . gladdening
   > us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before
   > Which thou standest.
   >
   > *St. John Chrysostom*, Patriarch of Constantinople; b. Antioch, Syria
   > (+407)
   >
   > When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies .
   > . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing
   > to Him, and who have great power [parresian, "boldness of speech"].[xxi] He
   > that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints
   > to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker
   > and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead.[xxii]
   >
   > *St. Augustine of Hippo*, in North Africa (+430)
   >
   > At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we
   > do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may
   > pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.
   >

   To simply disallow these testimonies is to fall into a sort of DaVinci Code
   mindset of Constantinian conspiracy and mass apostasy by Christians that had
   been willing to die for their faith only years before, but who are now so
   cowed by the Empire that they are willing to accept a christianized form of
   polytheism.  One can believe this, but not if one believes the Holy Spirit
   continued to guide the Church after Pentecost so that the gates of Hell
   would not overcome Her.  We can't just 'jump over' thousands of years of
   consistent history and practice across political, cultural, linguistic and
   even theological boundaries to get at what we assume must be the 'real'
   practice of the early Church (which looks an awful lot like a church in our
   own, preferred image) without *denying *to God a continuing, providential
   activity.

   On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

   >   I was wondering at what point in the history of the ancient Church,
   > the practice of veneration of the Saints/asking for intercession from
   > them came into being. Can you cite a specific time or instance when
   > this first came on the scene? I don't see exact references to it in
   > the Bible, although I have been told or read about some references
   > therein that strike me as being very indirect. So, I must gather that
   > the veneration of Saints is part of the oral tradition of the Church.
   > Or is it mentioned in secondary writings?
   >
   > Thanks for bearing with my line of inquiry.
   >
   > Dave
   >
   >
   >


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ------------------------------------

   Yahoo! Groups Links





   --
   No virus found in this incoming message.
   Checked by AVG.
   Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 2/26/2009
2:51 PM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Additional pre-Nicene example of intercession for the dead:

We offer, on one day every year, oblations
35<http://www.tertullian.org/lfc/LFC10-11_de_corona.htm#35>for the
dead as birth-day
36 <http://www.tertullian.org/lfc/LFC10-11_de_corona.htm#36> honours.
(Tertullian, On the Crowns)

Christopher



On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

> There is a great danger in accepting proof from silence.  This is
> essentially the argument made by Protestants regarding the invocation of the
> saints.
>
> First, they assume that because written documentation has survived the
> catacombs in bulk that it must not have existed in the early Church.
>
> Second, they ignore the proof that has survived from the catacombs.  For
> example, the inscription in the catacomb of St Priscilla on the Via Balaria:
>
> ANATOLIVS FILIO BENEMERENTI FECIT QUI VIXIT ANNIS VII, MENSIS VII, DIEBUS
>>> XX.  ISPIRITVS TVVS BENE REQUIESCAT IN DEO PETAS PRO SORORE TVO  ('Anatolius
>>> erected this for his well-deserving son who lived seven years, seven months
>>> and twenty days.  May thy soul find rest in God. Pray for thy sister.')
>>>
>>
>> ...on the marble slab that sealed off the remains of the martyr Sabbatius
>> buried in the catacomb of Saints Gordian and Epimachus:
>
>
>
>> SABBATI DVLCIS ANIMA PETE ET ROGA PRO FRATRES ET SODALES TVOS.  ('O
>>> Sabbatius, sweet soul, ask and pray for your brothers and companions.')
>>>
>>
> Third, they assume an almost irreparable break between the Church that
> emerged from the catacombs and the Church of the catacombs thereby making
> the universal, post-Constantinian practice of the invocation of the saints
> 'untrustworthy'.
>
> For example, they ignore the witness of the *Second Ecumenical
Council*(Constantinople, 381 AD):
>
>> May God by the prayers of the Saints, show favour to the world, that you
>> may be strong and eminent in all good things as an Emperor most truly pious
>> and beloved of God. (Letter of the Same Holy Synod to the Most Pious Emperor
>> [St.] Theodosius the Great)
>>
> Or, the witness of other highly regarded saints:
>
>> *St. Ephraim the Syrian* (+373)
>>
>> Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the
>> Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that
>> fights against me day by day.
>>
>> Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God
>> and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye
>> saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that
>> the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us
>> that so we may love him.
>>
>> *St. Basil the Great*, of Caesarea in Asia Minor (+379)
>>
>> According to the blameless faith of the Christians which we have obtained
>> from God, I confess and agree that I believe in one God the Father Almighty;
>> God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost; I adore and worship one
>> God, the Three. I confess to the oeconomy of the Son in the flesh, and that
>> the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of
>> God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I
>> invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through
>> their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom
>> may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the
>> features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the
>> holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.
>>
>> We beseech you, O most holy martyrs, who cheerfully suffered torments and
>> death for his love, and are now more familiarly united to him, that you
>> intercede with God for us slothful and wretched sinners, that he bestow on
>> us the grace of Christ, by which we may be enlightened and enabled to love
>> him.
>>
>> O holy choir! O sacred band! O unbroken host of warriors! O common
>> guardians of the human race! Ye gracious sharers of our cares! Ye
>> co-operators in our prayer! Most powerful intercessors!
>>
>> *St. Gregory the Theologian* (+390)**
>>
>> 'St. Peter, pity me, save me, open for me the gate of heaven'.
>>
> According to George Bebis in his “The Saints of the Orthodox Church”:
>
>> In one of his letters, *St. Basil [the Great]* explicitly writes that he
>> accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks
>> their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs,
>> who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common
>> friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent
>> prayers. (Chapter 8)
>>
>> *St. Gregory of Nyssa* asks St. Theodore the Martyr …to fervently pray to
>> our Common King, our God, for the country and the people (Encomium to Martyr
>> Theodore).
>>
>> The same language is used by *St. Gregory the Theologian* in his encomium
>> to St. Cyprian. St. John Chrysostom says that we should seek the
>> intercession and the fervent prayers of the saints, because they have
>> special "boldness" (parresia), before God. (Gen. 44: 2 and Encomium to
>> Julian, Iuventinus and Maximinus, 3).
>>
> *Also:*
>
>> *St. Cyril of Jerusalem* (+386)
>> We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first,
>> patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and
>> intercessions, may receive our petitions.[xiv] St. Gregory the Theologian,
>> Patriarch of Constantinople; of Nazianzus in Asia Minor (+389) Mayest thou
>> [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and
>> life; and shepherd [or shepherd with me] this sacred flock . . . gladdening
>> us with a more perfect and clear illumination of the Holy Trinity, before
>> Which thou standest.
>>
>> *St. John Chrysostom*, Patriarch of Constantinople; b. Antioch, Syria
>> (+407)
>>
>> When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies .
>> . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing
>> to Him, and who have great power [parresian, "boldness of speech"].[xxi] He
>> that wears the purple, laying aside his pomp, stands begging of the saints
>> to be his patrons with God; and he that wears the diadem begs the Tent-maker
>> and the Fisherman as patrons, even though they be dead.[xxii]
>>
>> *St. Augustine of Hippo*, in North Africa (+430)
>>
>> At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we
>> do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may
>> pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.
>>
>
> To simply disallow these testimonies is to fall into a sort of DaVinci Code
> mindset of Constantinian conspiracy and mass apostasy by Christians that had
> been willing to die for their faith only years before, but who are now so
> cowed by the Empire that they are willing to accept a christianized form of
> polytheism.  One can believe this, but not if one believes the Holy Spirit
> continued to guide the Church after Pentecost so that the gates of Hell
> would not overcome Her.  We can't just 'jump over' thousands of years of
> consistent history and practice across political, cultural, linguistic and
> even theological boundaries to get at what we assume must be the 'real'
> practice of the early Church (which looks an awful lot like a church in our
> own, preferred image) without *denying *to God a continuing, providential
> activity.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:
>
>>   I was wondering at what point in the history of the ancient Church,
>> the practice of veneration of the Saints/asking for intercession from
>> them came into being. Can you cite a specific time or instance when
>> this first came on the scene? I don't see exact references to it in
>> the Bible, although I have been told or read about some references
>> therein that strike me as being very indirect. So, I must gather that
>> the veneration of Saints is part of the oral tradition of the Church.
>> Or is it mentioned in secondary writings?
>>
>> Thanks for bearing with my line of inquiry.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

For me, had Western Rite been an option, there would have been no question I
would have gone that route for the sake of my family but there aren't any
Western Rite parishes even an hour or two away.

I think WR would have been easier for my husband and he might have
considered Orthodoxy (although he likes that "being of German descent in a
Lutheran church" thing he has going for him--talk about ethnic!--so I can't
say for certain he would have made the move....but I would have certainly
considered that first).

Now...some almost 4 years later I would find it difficult to give up the
Eastern expressions of Orthodoxy...although I still would do it if there was
a WR parish near by and it meant my husband would join me.

Being WR one still gets some exposure to Eastern things...for example, a
week from Sunday night there will most likely be a pan-Orthodox vespers
service in your area to celebrate the Sunday of Orthodoxy.  If you were WR
you would attend that and it would most likely be done Eastern style.  There
are other occasions throughout the year for these kinds of pan-Orthodox/
Eastern exposure, like clergy/laity conferences, so I suspect one would
start to get comfortable with Eastern ways after a while even if one were
WR.

In picking out an Eastern Orthodox church I tend to take a "bloom where you
are planted" approach.  I would go to the nearest parish...unless that
parish is really there to specifically serve an ethnic population in the
area.  Those parishes are needed, too, but it's best when English is one's
first language to go to a parish where English is mostly spoken.  Of course
you may choose to do it differently.  I wouldn't worry so much about being
accepted.  I have found the Orthodox in general to be very hospitable and
loving and accepting even if some cradle ethnics don't quite understand why
in the world a German or Anglo would choose to attend a Greek or Russian or
Serbian parish.  In the end, as you already know, it isn't about the style
of chanting (my preference is Russian though I go to a Greek parish) or the
building or the food at coffee hour or even how kind the priest
is...although I have to say from personal experience that having a
wonderful, kind, holy priest is a great blessing.

One last thing...do go to Forgiveness Vespers this Sunday evening if you
can.  It is a beautiful service.-----R
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:53 AM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

>   I'm an LCMS Lutheran seriously looking into Orthodoxy and have gone to
> many Vespers and occasional Divine Liturgy services at an OCA church
> in my area. The reason I selected that particular church was the fact
> that they stated a large percentage of members were converts, which I
> thought might ease the transition. My wife has come with me from time
> to time, but is very overwhelmed by the Eastern "foreignness" of the
> worship. I was thinking that perhaps a Western Rite Orthodox parish
> might be an easier transition for her, since my Lutheran and her Roman
> Catholic upbringings are more similar to that. Trouble is, the priest
> at the OCA parish I'd been visiting told me that Western Rite isn't
> "quite Orthodox" and that the "real Church" is only in the East. That
> brought to mind a point that has always troubled me about the Orthodox
> Church: that there tends to be a nationalist bent at times, or that I
> can't belong because I'm not Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc. I spent 2
> years in Russia and visited Divine Liturgy often, Easter Vigil, etc,
> and was profoundly moved, but here in the US I am not accepted into
> the Russian parishes, since I'm not Russian, despite being rather
> proficient in the language, even Slavonic. How do I find the best path
> that will also be easier for my wife to accept? Worshiping separately
> from her is not my preference.
>
> Sorry about the long post, and thanks for the help.
>
> Dave
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is consistently
misrepresented in this forum.

Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.

What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we should
invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach the
invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since
neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that conscience
remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from
faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia: The
Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10

Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that Christopher
has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
understanding of the veneration of the Saints.

Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our conscience must
not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction that
Lutherans make.

In Christ's service by grace alone,
Jon

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564

Office   845.855.3169
Home     845.855.2616
E-Mail   didache@...
E-Mail   pawlinglutheran@...
Web      http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
Blog     http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

I wouldn't say misrepresent, but perhaps it isn't as carefully distinguished
as you would like.  While your point is taken that Lutheranism makes a
distinction between prayers to the saints and the fact that the saints pray
for us, many Lutherans do not make a clear distinction on this point in
practice.  It isn't really the Orthodox intent to correct Lutherans'
understandings of Lutheranism.  I think you can admit the two are related in
some way.

That being said, "Pray for thy sister" is not simply acknowledging that the
saints pray for us, it is asking for (commanding!) prayer, as is "ask and
pray for your brothers and companions".  Another example that I added to a
slightly expanded version of this answer on my blog is from the same
catacomb of Gordion and Epimachus (c. 75-200 AD):

> To our blessed Sozon - may the true Christ receive your spirit in peace,
> and pray for us.
>
> Again, the inscribers asking for the prayers of Sozon, not just testifying
that he is praying for us.

Similarly with

    - "Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the
    Saviour earnestly for me";
    - "ye saints, intercede for us";
    - "I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I
    invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through
    their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom
    may be made and given me for my sins";
    - "We beseech you, O most holy martyrs";
    - "St. Peter, pity me, save me, open for me the gate of heaven";
    - "We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us,
    first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers
    and intercessions, may receive our petitions";
    - "Mayest thou [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and
    guide our word and life";
    - "When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His
    enemies . . . but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who
    were pleasing to Him, and who have great power"; and,
    - "At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that
    we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they
    may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps."

In all these examples, the prayers of the saints are being requested by
those still in the flesh; the saints are being spoken to, not about.

Christopher

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <
didache@...> wrote:

>   The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is
> consistently
> misrepresented in this forum.
>
> Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.
>
> What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we should
> invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach the
> invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since
> neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
> Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that conscience
> remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from
> faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia: The
> Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10
>
> Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that Christopher
> has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
> understanding of the veneration of the Saints.
>
> Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our conscience must
>
> not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction that
> Lutherans make.
>
> In Christ's service by grace alone,
> Jon
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
> the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
>
> "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
> the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
> everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
> call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
>
> Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
>
> The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
> 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
>
> Office 845.855.3169
> Home 845.855.2616
> E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
> E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
> Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
> Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,

Three quick points.

1. To piggy back on what Christopher said: the life of the Orthodox faith is not
a matter of archeology. Faith is living, not static, just like love. Past events
can show how faith looks and lives, but can't prove what faith does just as past
events with a loved one can show how love acts and lives, but can't prove that
love is there. Therefore, the *proof* of intercession of the saints (part of the
Church's faith) does not depend on finding the earliest text; rather, it depends
on the living tradition.

2. Having said that, evidence is helpful for those who still have their doubts.
When looking at liturgical evidence, one must remember this principle: what is
written down most likely reflects at least 2 geneations of use.

3. Here is a brief essay that shows that intercession to the saints
(particularly Mary) traces to the third century.
http://conversiaddominum.blogspot.com/2006/11/petitionary-prayer-to-mary.html
 
 
 
Fr John W Fenton, Priest
Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North
America
 
frfenton@...
www.holyincarnation.org
 
 
 




________________________________
From: Dave W. <dkwiech@...>
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:31:42 PM
Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints


I was wondering at what point in the history of the ancient Church,
the practice of veneration of the Saints/asking for intercession from
them came into being. Can you cite a specific time or instance when
this first came on the scene? I don't see exact references to it in
the Bible, although I have been told or read about some references
therein that strike me as being very indirect. So, I must gather that
the veneration of Saints is part of the oral tradition of the Church.
Or is it mentioned in secondary writings?

Thanks for bearing with my line of inquiry.

Dave




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rev Ellingworth,

You are quite correct--Lutherans officially declare in the Apology "granted that
the saints pray for us." (It is curious, however, that this "granted" seems to
be severely limited by Luther in the Smalcald Articles.) 

Nevertheless, the living tradition in Lutheranism seems to have relegated even
this concession to theory since there that this concession is liturgically
expressed; and where it is (e.g., in certain hymns), most Lutherans would not
know it or even agree with it.
 
 
 
 
 
Fr John W Fenton, Priest
Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North
America
 
frfenton@...
www.holyincarnation.org
 
 
 




________________________________
From: Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <didache@...>
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints


The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is consistently
misrepresented in this forum.

Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.

What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we should
invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach the
invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since
neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that conscience
remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from
faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia: The
Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10

Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that Christopher
has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
understanding of the veneration of the Saints.

Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our conscience must
not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction that
Lutherans make.

In Christ's service by grace alone,
Jon

++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

Office 845.855.3169
Home 845.855.2616
E-Mail didache@earthlink. net
E-Mail pawlinglutheran@ verizon.net
Web http://www.pawlingl utheran.org
Blog http://www.lestever ymanbeblind. blogspot. com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oops.

Here's what I wrote:

	 * Nevertheless, the living tradition in Lutheranism seems to have relegated
even this concession to theory since there that this concession is liturgically
expressed; and where it is (e.g., in certain hymns), most Lutherans would not
know it or even agree with it.

It makes little sense in the first sentence.

Here's what I intended to write:

	 * Nevertheless, the living tradition in Lutheranism seems to have relegated
even this concession to theory since there is little evidence that this
concession is liturgically expressed; and where it is (e.g., in certain hymns),
most Lutherans would not know it or even agree with it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Fr John W Fenton, Priest
Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North
America
 
frfenton@...
www.holyincarnation.org
 
 
 




________________________________
From: Fr John Fenton <frfenton@...>
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:38:41 AM
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints


Rev Ellingworth,

You are quite correct--Lutherans officially declare in the Apology "granted that
the saints pray for us." (It is curious, however, that this "granted" seems to
be severely limited by Luther in the Smalcald Articles.) 

Nevertheless, the living tradition in Lutheranism seems to have relegated even
this concession to theory since there that this concession is liturgically
expressed; and where it is (e.g., in certain hymns), most Lutherans would not
know it or even agree with it.
 
 
 
 
 
Fr John W Fenton, Priest
Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North
America
 
frfenton@sbcglobal. net
www.holyincarnation .org
 
 
 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <didache@earthlink. net>
To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Question on veneration of the Saints

The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is consistently
misrepresented in this forum.

Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.

What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we should
invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach the
invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since
neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that conscience
remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from
faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia: The
Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10

Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that Christopher
has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
understanding of the veneration of the Saints.

Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our conscience must
not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction that
Lutherans make.

In Christ's service by grace alone,
Jon

++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

Office 845.855.3169
Home 845.855.2616
E-Mail didache@earthlink. net
E-Mail pawlinglutheran@ verizon.net
Web http://www.pawlingl utheran.org
Blog http://www.lestever ymanbeblind. blogspot. com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Using 20/20 hindisght...

It seems amazing how I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the
veneration of saints was wrong when I was going to a Lutheran school.

And yet...
We did it every morning when we sang the "Te Deum Laudamus" in the
Matins service!

Dave N.

Some Lutherans would make the distinction between the veneration and the
invocation of the saints, just as invocation of the saints is distinct from
whether the saints pray for us, and all this distinct from prayers for the
dead.  However, in the popular mind these are all mixed up with each other -
and also in many pastoral minds, too.

They are related obviously.

I could multiply examples of the Fathers preaching and teaching the
veneration of the saints (similar to the LCMS's 'commemoration' and
'honoring' of the great saints of the past) and prayer for the dead.
Perhaps I will.

Christopher



On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

>   Using 20/20 hindisght...
>
> It seems amazing how I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the
> veneration of saints was wrong when I was going to a Lutheran school.
>
> And yet...
> We did it every morning when we sang the "Te Deum Laudamus" in the
> Matins service!
>
> Dave N.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rev. Jon,

Thank you for that clarification.  That is enlightening for me regarding the
Lutheran Confessions.  I had always heard that quote used a dismissal of the
intercessions of the saints, and at best a strong discouragement of the
practice.

I appreciate your input here!

Jeremy



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth" <didache@...>

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:11:37
To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints


The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is consistently
misrepresented in this forum.

Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.

What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we should
invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach the
invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since
neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that conscience
remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from
faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia: The
Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10

Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that Christopher
has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
understanding of the veneration of the Saints.

Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our conscience must
not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction that
Lutherans make.

In Christ's service by grace alone,
Jon

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564

Office   845.855.3169
Home     845.855.2616
E-Mail   didache@...
E-Mail   pawlinglutheran@...
Web      http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
Blog     http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll bring up some examples, closer to home, from the Scriptures themselves.

In Rev. 18:19-20 the apostle John speaks to his departed fellow apostles and the
saints who have died and are in heaven with Christ: “Rejoice over her, O heaven,
O saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against
her!”

Please note that this is translated out most version, but not the KJV or NKJ.

Also, we speak to angels in the psalms.  In Ps 102:18-20 LXX (103:20-1, MT): 
Bless the Lord, all ye His angels!...   Bless the Lord, all ye His hosts!  
Bless Him, all ye works!"  When I was reading this in church aloud one day it
suddenly hit me what a thing this is, that we speak to angels, exhorting them to
worship with us.
       Likewise we speak to angels when we say Ps. 148:2 and Ps. 96:8 LXX, and
Moses does in his prayer in Deut. 32:43.
       Please note that the Hebrew text, which tends to translate angels out,
removes mention of them in its version of Ps. 96 and Deut 32 (the two passages
are quite similar).
       However, we know the LXX is correct here and the MT wrong....because
HEBREWS 1:6 QUOTES THE SEPTUAGINT:  "Let all God's angels worship him."

These verses above are not quite asking the saints and angels to pray for us;
but if you can talk to them, there's certainly no objection to aksing them to
pray for us.

----Tying up another thread, I thought someone made an excellent comment that
it's not good to get too worried about a particular English translation....as
long as you're reading the fathers your interp will be directed aright.
     I would say if you're not used to any translation it's best to stick with
the KJV or NKJ....but if you're used to one translation it's hard to switch.  I
use the RSV since I grew up with it,and the words dug a groove in my head that I
want to stay there.

      I mean, it's pretty much impossible to translate the energies out God out
of Scripture, even if you try.  Fr. Jon Braun, a great laborer in Jews for Jesus
and later Orthodoxy, was converted to Christianity by reading a Jehovah's
Witness Bible....it was all he had, and the JW's didn't succeed in their messing
with the text.

     The reason I would avoid translations like the NIV if all other things are
equal is that it does things like translate the Greek "paradosis" as 'tradition'
when it comes up in negative contexts; but when it comes up in a positive sense
as in I Cor 11:2 they translate it as 'ordinance' or something.
    But as I say, reading the fathers always sharpens our understanding of the
Scriptures.  I think our own misunderstanding Scripture is more of a hindrance
than English translations.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Randy




________________________________
From: "AdonaiUplifts@..." <AdonaiUplifts@...>
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:03:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints


Rev. Jon,

Thank you for that clarification.  That is enlightening for me regarding the
Lutheran Confessions.  I had always heard that quote used a dismissal of the
intercessions of the saints, and at best a strong discouragement of the
practice.

I appreciate your input here!

Jeremy



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth" <didache@earthlink. net>

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:11:37
To: <LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Question on veneration of the Saints


The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is consistently
misrepresented in this forum.

Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.

What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we should
invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach the
invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. Since
neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that conscience
remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made from
faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia: The
Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10

Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that Christopher
has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
understanding of the veneration of the Saints.

Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our conscience must
not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction that
Lutherans make.

In Christ's service by grace alone,
Jon

++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564

Office   845.855.3169
Home     845.855.2616
E-Mail didache@earthlink. net
E-Mail pawlinglutheran@ verizon.net
Web http://www.pawlingl utheran.org
Blog http://www.lestever ymanbeblind. blogspot. com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for your help, Randy. The Biblical quotes you provided
definitely give this Lutheran the "ammunition" he was looking for.
Granted I understand the Orthodox argument against Sola Scriptura and
I've taken that to heart, old habits die hard, wherein I always need
to test things against Scripture. As for the Fathers, the only thing I
have is a small paperback of the Desert Fathers. Is there another book
you or anyone can recommend to get me further on the road to their
writings? There's so much out there, and I could use a few good
"starters" for beginners.

Thanks again, and blessings to you all for your kind guidance.

Dave



--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay
<stortford@...> wrote:
>
> I'll bring up some examples, closer to home, from the Scriptures
themselves.
>
> In Rev. 18:19-20 the apostle John speaks to his departed fellow
apostles and the saints who have died and are in heaven with Christ:
"Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets, for
God has given judgment for you against her!"
>
> Please note that this is translated out most version, but not the
KJV or NKJ.
>
> Also, we speak to angels in the psalms.  In Ps 102:18-20 LXX
(103:20-1, MT):  Bless the Lord, all ye His angels!...   Bless the
Lord, all ye His hosts!   Bless Him, all ye works!"  When I was
reading this in church aloud one day it suddenly hit me what a thing
this is, that we speak to angels, exhorting them to worship with us.
>       Likewise we speak to angels when we say Ps. 148:2 and Ps. 96:8
LXX, and Moses does in his prayer in Deut. 32:43.
>       Please note that the Hebrew text, which tends to translate
angels out, removes mention of them in its version of Ps. 96 and Deut
32 (the two passages are quite similar).
>       However, we know the LXX is correct here and the MT
wrong....because HEBREWS 1:6 QUOTES THE SEPTUAGINT:  "Let all God's
angels worship him."
>
> These verses above are not quite asking the saints and angels to
pray for us; but if you can talk to them, there's certainly no
objection to aksing them to pray for us.
>
> ----Tying up another thread, I thought someone made an excellent
comment that it's not good to get too worried about a particular
English translation....as long as you're reading the fathers your
interp will be directed aright.
>     I would say if you're not used to any translation it's best to
stick with the KJV or NKJ....but if you're used to one translation
it's hard to switch.  I use the RSV since I grew up with it,and the
words dug a groove in my head that I want to stay there.
>
>      I mean, it's pretty much impossible to translate the energies
out God out of Scripture, even if you try.  Fr. Jon Braun, a great
laborer in Jews for Jesus and later Orthodoxy, was converted to
Christianity by reading a Jehovah's Witness Bible....it was all he
had, and the JW's didn't succeed in their messing with the text.
>
>     The reason I would avoid translations like the NIV if all other
things are equal is that it does things like translate the Greek
"paradosis" as 'tradition' when it comes up in negative contexts; but
when it comes up in a positive sense as in I Cor 11:2 they translate
it as 'ordinance' or something.
>    But as I say, reading the fathers always sharpens our
understanding of the Scriptures.  I think our own misunderstanding
Scripture is more of a hindrance than English translations.
>
> In Christ,
> Subdeacon Randy
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "AdonaiUplifts@..." <AdonaiUplifts@...>
> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:03:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Question on veneration of the Saints
>
>
> Rev. Jon,
>
> Thank you for that clarification.  That is enlightening for me
regarding the Lutheran Confessions.  I had always heard that quote
used a dismissal of the intercessions of the saints, and at best a
strong discouragement of the practice.
>
> I appreciate your input here!
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth" <didache@earthlink. net>
>
> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:11:37
> To: <LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com>
> Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Question on veneration of the
Saints
>
>
> The Lutheran understanding of the veneration of the Saints is
consistently
> misrepresented in this forum.
>
> Lutherans acknowledge that the Saints and angels pray for us.
>
> What Lutherans (typically) will not bind consciences to is that we
should
> invoke the Saints and angels for aid. Why? "Scripture does not teach
the
> invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid.
Since
> neither a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
> Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that
conscience
> remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer should be made
from
> faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation?" Concordia:
The
> Lutheran Confessions, Apology XXI:10
>
> Most of the examples "from the catacombs" and the Fathers that
Christopher
> has quoted are acceptable according to the confessional Lutheran
> understanding of the veneration of the Saints.
>
> Once again: The Saints and Angels *DO* pray for us; but our
conscience must
> not be bound to invoke them to give us aid. That is the distinction
that
> Lutherans make.
>
> In Christ's service by grace alone,
> Jon
>
> ++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++++
>
> "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
> the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
>
> "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
> the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
> everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
> call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
>
> Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
>
> The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
> 14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564
>
> Office   845.855.3169
> Home     845.855.2616
> E-Mail didache@earthlink. net
> E-Mail pawlinglutheran@ verizon.net
> Web http://www.pawlingl utheran.org
> Blog http://www.lestever ymanbeblind. blogspot. com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Randall Hay wrote:
<<These verses above are not quite asking the saints and angels to pray for
us; but if you can talk to them, there's certainly no objection to aksing
them to pray for us.>>

No, the verses you quoted do *not* ask the saints and angels to pray for us.
Further, that we can talk to them is certainly not denied or denounced in
Scripture or the Lutheran Confessions (the Te Deum Laudamus is a fine
example of our joining in worship with angels, saints, apostles, and
martyrs; as is the Proper Preface "...therefore with angels and archangels
and with all the company of heaven *we* laud and magnify you..."). There
should not be a Lutheran objection to asking the Saints to pray *for* us,
*with* us -- since they *do*.

This is all something very different from asking the Saints to *aid* us or
*answer* us -- There is a difference between asking a Saint to *pray* for us
and *praying to* the Saint. You wrote that we *talk* to them and *ask* them
to pray for us -- but I imagine that you would define *praying* as being
somewhat more than talking or asking?

Saints and angels, etc. pray *with* us and *for* us -- this is taught in
Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. That we should *pray to* saints and
angels, etc. -- this is forbidden by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.

And, for the record, a Lutheran pastor and / or congregation (LCMS) is not
bound to the "popular mind", "living tradition", or even to "practice", but
to the Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions which must norm our
doctrine and practice. There are those in the LCMS who continually work to
restore and to even enlarge to the fullest and most faithful expression of
the Church in accordance with these two confessional standards.

In Christ's Peace
Jon

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564

Office   845.855.3169
Home     845.855.2616
E-Mail   didache@...
E-Mail   pawlinglutheran@...
Web      http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
Blog     http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

Jon,

You said: "That we should *pray to* saints and
angels, etc. -- this is forbidden by Scripture and the Lutheran
Confessions."

To what specific passages of the Scriptures and the Confessions are
you referring?

The reason I ask is because the line of reasoning in the Confessions,
specifically the AC and the Apology, seems to focus more on a) there's
no command or example in Scripture to invoke the saints, and b) the
conscience remains uncertain whether they can hear us.

For example, to give one quote, Apology XXI:10-12 says, "Since neither
a command nor a promise nor an example can be produced from the
Scriptures about the invocation of saints, it makes sense that
conscience remains uncertain about this invocation. Since prayer
should be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this
invocation? Without the testimony of Scripture, how do we know that
the saints know about the prayers of each one? ... Since the
invocation of saints does not have a testimony from God's Word, it
cannot be affirmed that the saints understand our invocation or, even
if they understand it, that God approves it."

Hence this thought comes to mind: it's one thing to say, "It is
forbidden"; it's quite another thing to say, "It's not addressed."

So, if I'm missing the "forbidden" language, please enlighten me (and
others on the list).

Randy

+ + + + +
Rev. Randy Asburry
Pastor
Hope Lutheran Church & School
5218 Neosho St., St. Louis, MO 63109
St. Louis, MO
Church: 314-352-0014
Mobile: 314-853-4714

mailto:r.asburry@...
http://rasburrysres.blogspot.com
www.hopelutheranstl.org

Divine Services:
Sundays: 8:00 & 10:30 AM
Wednesdays: 7:00 PM

On Feb 28, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth wrote:

> Randall Hay wrote:
> <<These verses above are not quite asking the saints and angels to
> pray for
> us; but if you can talk to them, there's certainly no objection to
> aksing
> them to pray for us.>>
>
> No, the verses you quoted do *not* ask the saints and angels to pray
> for us.
> Further, that we can talk to them is certainly not denied or
> denounced in
> Scripture or the Lutheran Confessions (the Te Deum Laudamus is a fine
> example of our joining in worship with angels, saints, apostles, and
> martyrs; as is the Proper Preface "...therefore with angels and
> archangels
> and with all the company of heaven *we* laud and magnify you...").
> There
> should not be a Lutheran objection to asking the Saints to pray
> *for* us,
> *with* us -- since they *do*.
>
> This is all something very different from asking the Saints to *aid*
> us or
> *answer* us -- There is a difference between asking a Saint to
> *pray* for us
> and *praying to* the Saint. You wrote that we *talk* to them and
> *ask* them
> to pray for us -- but I imagine that you would define *praying* as
> being
> somewhat more than talking or asking?
>
> Saints and angels, etc. pray *with* us and *for* us -- this is
> taught in
> Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. That we should *pray to*
> saints and
> angels, etc. -- this is forbidden by Scripture and the Lutheran
> Confessions.
>
> And, for the record, a Lutheran pastor and / or congregation (LCMS)
> is not
> bound to the "popular mind", "living tradition", or even to
> "practice", but
> to the Holy Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions which must norm
> our
> doctrine and practice. There are those in the LCMS who continually
> work to
> restore and to even enlarge to the fullest and most faithful
> expression of
> the Church in accordance with these two confessional standards.
>
> In Christ's Peace
> Jon
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
> the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
>
> "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
> the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
> everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
> call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
>
> Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
>
> The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
> 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
>
> Office 845.855.3169
> Home 845.855.2616
> E-Mail didache@...
> E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
> Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
> Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:

"O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
body and precious blood of thy Son.  O thou who didst bring forth the
true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
dead in sin.  O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts.  And permit
me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
and soul.  Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life.  For blessed and
glorified art thou unto all the ages.  Amen."

To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
the fence, as much as the OC draws me.


Dave




--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay
<stortford@...> wrote:
>
> I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT.   In
Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
physically:
>
> "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
>
> This is truly staggering.
>
>
> St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
the Holy Spirit:  "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
>
> God does not give everyone these gifts, of course.  But if we are at
least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
>
> Subdeacon Randy
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory
prayers...
>
>
>
>
> If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
from time to time may send them on some task.  They are however alive
to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
>
>  --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:
>
> From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
> Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
> To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
>
> Howdy!
>
> I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
> that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
>
> "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
> omnipresence of the dead?"
>
> Dave
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Randy Asburry wrote:
<<Hence this thought comes to mind: it's one thing to say, "It is
forbidden"; it's quite another thing to say, "It's not addressed.">>

Randy,
You are of course correct. I have overstated my point a bit in writing "That we
should *pray to* saints and
angels, etc. -- this is forbidden by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions." I
had in mind petitioning the saints for more than simply their prayers or to join
us in worship of the Holy Trinity. I had in mind petitioning the saints for aid
of some sort with the expectation that they, themselves, would / could provide
it. Still, I retract the word "fobidden" as an overstatement of what my
confessional standard (to the best of my understanding) states. Thank you for
calling me out on this.

That being said, my conscience nevertheless convicts me, apart from a direct
prohibition, that the positive statements of both Scripture and Confession
concerning who should be prayed to (in the sense described above - petitioned
for aid) and the supreme Lordship of Christ to the glory of the Father, along
with the otherwise silence of Scripture on such petitionary prayer to saints,
such that I - personally - treat such prayer as forbidden.

Jon


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564

Office   845.855.3169
Home     845.855.2616
E-Mail   didache@...
E-Mail   pawlinglutheran@...
Web      http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
Blog     http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Father Gregory, former Lutheran pastor now Orthodox priest and maybe even a
participate here did a series addressing this prayer.  The links are:

http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/08/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion.html
http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion.html
http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion_08.h\
tml
http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion_15.h\
tml

Maybe you will find these helpful.-----R

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

>   At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
> question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
> 130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:
>
> "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
> shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
> hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
> body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
> true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
> thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
> dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
> upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
> of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
> me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
> sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
> and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
> hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
> glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."
>
> To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
> God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
> frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
> the fence, as much as the OC draws me.
>
> Dave
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> randall hay
>
> <stortford@...> wrote:
> >
> > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
> Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
> and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
> physically:
> >
> > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
> to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
> >
> > This is truly staggering.
> >
> >
> > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
> the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
> know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
> you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
> >
> > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
> least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
> sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
> even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
> >
> > Subdeacon Randy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
>
> > To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory
> prayers...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
> dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
> answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
> from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
> to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
> Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
> affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
> more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
> their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
> under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
> >
> > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:
> >
> > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
> > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
> > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
> >
> > Howdy!
> >
> > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
> > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
> >
> > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
> > omnipresence of the dead?"
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I apologize for not removing the [SPAM] designation on previous posts. I just
now realized it was there. I will try to find a way to stop that. New notebook
computer with a new OS, still learning its quirks.

Jon

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

"O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
14 Pine Drive    Pawling, NY    12564

Office   845.855.3169
Home     845.855.2616
E-Mail   didache@...
E-Mail   pawlinglutheran@...
Web      http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
Blog     http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Orthodoxy does not teach her own to petition "the saints for aid of some
sort with the expectation that they, themselves, would / could provide it",
if by that you mean a saint is acting somehow autonomously from God.  Saints
aren't demigods, they haven't tapped into some otherwise innate power of
their own or into a power that exists apart from God in the universe.

We can all of us only do anything because God continually creates and
sustains us.  In everyday life we don't see the need to point out the fact
that at the end of the day it was God who just brought all things together
to make sure my baby was bathed; it is equally accurate to say I just bathed
my baby, just from a different perspective.  It is the same with the power
of the saints - they have power only insofar as their God works through
them.  It is them, but not without God; it is God, through His saints
because he is "wondrous in His saints".

This is also the explanation regarding those things that only God can do -
it is God working through His saints.  Union with God is an awesome, deep
thing.  We prefer to tame it, and systematize as if our boxes for 'God' and
'man' were real.

Christopher




On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <
didache@...> wrote:

>   Randy Asburry wrote:
> <<Hence this thought comes to mind: it's one thing to say, "It is
> forbidden"; it's quite another thing to say, "It's not addressed.">>
>
> Randy,
> You are of course correct. I have overstated my point a bit in writing
> "That we should *pray to* saints and
> angels, etc. -- this is forbidden by Scripture and the Lutheran
> Confessions." I had in mind petitioning the saints for more than simply
> their prayers or to join us in worship of the Holy Trinity. I had in mind
> petitioning the saints for aid of some sort with the expectation that they,
> themselves, would / could provide it. Still, I retract the word "fobidden"
> as an overstatement of what my confessional standard (to the best of my
> understanding) states. Thank you for calling me out on this.
>
> That being said, my conscience nevertheless convicts me, apart from a
> direct prohibition, that the positive statements of both Scripture and
> Confession concerning who should be prayed to (in the sense described above
> - petitioned for aid) and the supreme Lordship of Christ to the glory of the
> Father, along with the otherwise silence of Scripture on such petitionary
> prayer to saints, such that I - personally - treat such prayer as forbidden.
>
> Jon
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
> the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
>
> "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
> the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
> everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
> call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
>
> Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
>
> The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
> 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
>
> Office 845.855.3169
> Home 845.855.2616
> E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
> E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
> Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
> Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]