Dear Pastor Vinovskis,

You are right.  In that very same conversation with my bishop and
priest, they reminded me that the Orthodox Church is not perfect and
has it's divisions.

Locally in another jurisdiction there has been a lot of controversy
and even in our own parish's history, there has been fighting, but the
big difference I see is that there is a time tested, apostolic even,
process for reconcilliation and self correction.

On the parish level: confession and being reconciled to your brother
before you commune is practiced where I am at and the people have a
deeper relationship with their priests and respect for the office.

On the whole church level, a council of bishops.  Much different from
voter's meetings and jockeying between "liberals" and "confessionals".

Episcopal government and the clear view of ordination as a sacrament,
so far from my view, seem to really help with resolving confict.  Also
doctrinal issues like the what the LCMS is facing are pretty much
unheard of in my neck of the woods.  There might be disagreements even
about money or fasting or whatever, but these are minor and do not
border on breaking with apostolic teaching.  Time ends up healing
these conflicts, whereas in churches with more democratic forms of
church government it seems like the churches change with the times in
a more worldly direction.

For what it is worth.

In my parish and in my diocese people are fighting for unity between
jusrisdictions.  People fight against their selfish desires to be in
communion with each other.  Humility is a virtue that is admired and I
have friends who are not afraid to speak the truth in love to me when
I am wrong.  I have never experienced anything like this before.

"Let the righteous strike me, it shall be a kindness and let him
reprove me, it shall be as excellent oil."---  from the Divine Liturgy
of St. John Chrysostom.

Another thing is this.  Because doctrinally the Orthodox Church is
steadfast, one can really stand firm and fight for what is right.
Before being Orthodox I felt like I was on a hill of sand.

Peace,
Laura

P.S. I just woke up and am drinking my first cup of coffee. It's
probably too early for me to try to communicate about such things.  ;-)





--- In utheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "wrvinovskis"
<WRVinovskis@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Sister,
>
> As an LCMS pastor, I very much appreciate your family's frustration
> with the controversy and fighting in the LCMS. I, too, from
> time-to-time have been tempted to throw in the towel. I pray God's
> blessing on you in your journey. I trust you will find a safe haven in
> the Orthodox church.  Having said that, in my brief interactions with
> Orthodox Christians of various stripes it has become fairly obvious to
> me that there is no lack of conflict and fighting among the Orthodox,
> also.  While there may be many good reasons to become Orthodox, I'm
> not sure peace and harmony is at the top of the list.
>
> God's Peace,
>
> Pr. Waldemar Vinovskis
>
> "We feebly struggle, they in glory shine!"
>
>
> > >
> > > My husband was a pastor for nearly 10 years in the LCMS. After 9
years
> > > of controversy and fighting in the LCMS and about a year of intense
> > > study and prayer, we met with Bishop JOSEPH and our local Orthodox
> > > priest. Bishop JOSEPH listened patiently and compassionately to our
> > > situation, concerns and fears. Then he said to us, " Have you ever
> > > thought about your salvation?"
> > >
> >
>

THarmann,
Yes you have picked up on a great point. Everything is connected.
The Church is the Body of Christ.  We are created in the image and
likeness of the Holy Trinity which is completely, perfectly united in
love.  The Church and her doctrine and spirit reflect this unity.

One thing I have noticed personally is that my heart, my head and my
soul need to be healed back together.  Because of experiences in my
life and my sin, they have become separated so I would not feel pain
or guilt.  Growing in unity with God and repentance will bring my self
back together.  It hurts sometimes, but it is a healing pain.  Like
alcohol poured on a wound.

Laura


  are --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tharman32"
<tharman32@...> wrote:
>
> I wanted to ask...for me Orthodoxy seems to be more unified in its
> teaching. By that I mean there doesn't seem to be this versus that
> (body vs. soul, faith vs works, Scripture vs. Tradition, etc).
> Orthodoxy seems to teach that this is the Way, and it involves
> several aspects or componets.
>
> Is this accurate? Or am I off base?
> Thanks
>
> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
> <donpedrogordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, there is fuss and trouble everywhere.  That is evidence of
> our need for Christ.
> >
> >   But, there is great peace and harmony in my heart, my
> conscience, my soul,  since becoming Orthodox. How joyous the
> intercession:  "...and grant us Thy great mercy."
> >
> >   When a devout family came to me in tears as I left my
> congregation, my words were like those of the bishop:  "Please
> understand that I too must seek my salvation." I still pray for
> them. May the Lord behold their piety with His accustomed love and
> mercy.
> >
> >   [formerly Pastor] B Peter Brandt-Sorheim
> >
> > wrvinovskis <WRVinovskis@> wrote:
> >           There is no lack of conflict and fighting among the
> Orthodox,
> > also. While there may be many good reasons to become Orthodox, I'm
> > not sure peace and harmony is at the top of the list.
> >
> >    ML wrote:
> >   Bishop JOSEPH listened patiently and compassionately to our
> situation, concerns and fears. Then he said to us, " Have you ever
> thought about your salvation?"
> >
> >
> >
> >     Recent Activity
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The big problem that I am running into is that people
can not comprehend my differentiation between:
BENEFICIAL
and
NECESSARY!

i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
do it!"

I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset."  ;->


--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
<donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Dave and JiMi.   Me, too!  You are not alone.
>
> "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
>           Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
line.
>
>

If it's beneficial for you, I should think you'd better consider it *necessary
for you*, yes?  It's necessary to make use of all things that benefit our souls.


Anastasia
e-mail:  anastasiatheo01@...
blog:  http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Dave @¿@¬
   To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:18 PM
   Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box


   The big problem that I am running into is that people
   can not comprehend my differentiation between:
   BENEFICIAL
   and
   NECESSARY!

   i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
   do it!"

   I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
   an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

   Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
   a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->

   --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
   <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
   >
   > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
   >
   > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
   > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
   line.
   >
   >






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


   No virus found in this incoming message.
   Checked by AVG.
   Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008
5:23 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The older I get in 'church years' the more I realize the spiritual dangers
of simply living and being.  I worry less about what might be necessary and
grasp at anything beneficial that will help keep me afloat.

I guess this also gets at the minimalist vs. maximalist issue.  In
Orthodoxy, it isn't the Words of Institution or even the Words of
Institution and the epiklesis that is necessary for a 'valid' communion -
the entire Divine Liturgy with a whole host of other 'musts' (a validly
ordained priest/bishop, a layman, an antimens, etc.) are necessary to
commune of Christ's Body and Blood.

Christopher


On 5/9/08, Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
>
>   If it's beneficial for you, I should think you'd better consider it
> *necessary for you*, yes? It's necessary to make use of all things that
> benefit our souls.
>
> Anastasia
> e-mail: anastasiatheo01@... <anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net>
> blog: http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave @¿@¬
> To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:18 PM
> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
>
> The big problem that I am running into is that people
> can not comprehend my differentiation between:
> BENEFICIAL
> and
> NECESSARY!
>
> i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
> do it!"
>
> I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
> an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)
>
> Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
> a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
> <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
> >
> > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
> > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
> line.
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008
> 5:23 PM
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps what is necessary is not the tools so much as the job they
accomplish.  For an example, praying without ceasing is necessary.
Praying the Hours might be one of the tools that help me come closer
to that goal.  But someone could employ other tools like the Jesus
Prayer, continually singing the hymns of the Church, or praying the
Psalms.

jrp

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
wrote:
>
> The big problem that I am running into is that people
> can not comprehend my differentiation between:
> BENEFICIAL
> and
> NECESSARY!
>
> i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
> do it!"
>
> I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
> an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)
>
> Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
> a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset."  ;->
>
>
> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
> <donpedrogordo@> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with Dave and JiMi.   Me, too!  You are not alone.
> >
> > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@> wrote:
> >           Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
> line.
> >
> >
>

Do try thinking in a different pattern.  Rather than defining what is of the
essence and what is peripheral [a scholastic approach], Orthodoxy embraces the
experience as a spiritual whole. The boundaries between beneficial and necessary
are blurred.  It depends on who you are and where you are in your spiritual
growth.
       Lutheran theologians acknowledge along with Orthodoxy that only the man
who really prays is capable of true theology:  We speak not in well spun tales
but what we have ourselves seen and heard.
       These things are organically connected and living.  Like the old question
of what is the cat?  The cat on the dissecting table is but a dead cat. The cat
in your lap...well that is quite different!  Our task is not so much to talk
about God as to talk to Him...and listen. In Jesus we encounter the living God,
both a fearful and joyous meeting.  Peter

Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
           The big problem that I am running into is that people
can not comprehend my differentiation between:
BENEFICIAL and NECESSARY!



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
insight on.

Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
(Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
right words...)

Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
Todd

Women in Orthodoxy Past & Present
Conference<http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2008/05/women-in-orthodoxy-past-presen\
t.html>

Friday, June 20 & Saturday, June 21, 2008

*A Conference for Women of All Ages organized with the blessing of Bishop
Gabriel of Manhattan*

Church of the Intercession, 13 Alvin Street, Glen Cove, NY 11542

OrthodoxWomensConference@... or 703-405-5064



*Lectures Include:*

*The Mother of God and Orthodox Women in Pre-revolutionary Russia*

Professor Vera Shevzov

*Being a Female Member of the Orthodox Church*

Professor Emerita Marina Ledkovsky

*St. Kassia the Nun: Activist, Poetess, Hymnographer, & a Woman Ahead of Her
Time*

Eugenia Temidis, Director of the Holy Myrrhbearers Women's Choir

*Orthodox Women at Church in Byzantium: Glimpses of a Lost World*

Fr. Robert Taft

*What is Ritual Im/Purity and Why?*

Sister Vassa Larin

*Orthodox Women and Their Confessors in the Russian Empire, 1700-2000*

Professor Nadieszda Kizenko

*Russian Orthodox Women and Social Work*

Natalia Ermolaev [friend of orrologion]



Friday and Saturday Lectures: $45 (Student Fee: $30)

One day of lectures: $30

*Registration payment due by May 30th *

*Holy Myrrhbearers Women's Choir *will sing at Saturday's Vigil and Sunday's
Liturgy!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Todd,

Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)

You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward
answers.

1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly Calvinist or
Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often ascribed or held by Lutherans
and is understandably but incorrectly ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly
rejected by the Orthodox Church. Among other things, it is built upon the
notions of original guilt which is also rejected by the Church.

2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God theory" is rejected
by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a dual personality in God and
ascribes to Him a sinful human characteristic.

Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced and therefore
will most likely raise other questions. For reading, let me suggest "The
Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John
Meyendorff.




Fr John W Fenton, Priest
Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North
America

frfenton@...
www.holyincarnation.org






----- Original Message ----
From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
insight on.

Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
(Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
right words...)

Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
Todd




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Todd,

   For me the Orthodox perspective is positive.

   It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin,
   as the person remains at core God's good creation and is therefore
   capable of restoration.

   Any other view leads to hatred towards God.

   God is angry with sin but loves the sinner.
   In Jesus Christ love overcomes anger.
   We live in this new contract / testamentum with God.

   Peter




tharman32 <tharman32@...> wrote:
           I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
insight on.

Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
(Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
right words...)

Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
Todd






---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am currently reading "Light from the Christian East" by James Payton, a
non-Orthodox Christian, based on an online recommendations. I am reading it
following a perusal of the preview chapter from Fr. John Anthony McGuckin's The
Orthodox Church: An Introduction to the History, Doctrine, and Spiritual
Culture<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1405150661/ref=ord_cart_sh\
r?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance>
, of which there is an 80-page preview from the publisher
here<http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/content/BPL_Images/Content_store/Sample_\
chapter/9781405150668/9781405150668_4_001.pdf>
.
Fr. John's work is crisp, eirenic, charitable in his descriptions and tone
as he explains aspects of the Orthodox Church.  It is highly detailed.  The
hardcover version is also priced for libraries at $150, but a paperback
version is expected out early next year.

I am enjoying "Light from the Christian East" for what it is - a
non-Orthodox Christian's attempt to accurately and charitably introduce and
explain the Orthodox Church to Western Christians with special emphasis (so
far) on trying to show how Eastern and Western Christians are not free of
certain paradigms (assumptions about the world) that color their
understanding of Scripture, terminology, church history, asceticism,
patristic texts, etc. - even the way they introduce Christianity.

I have actually found myself nodding at important resonances he describes in
my own journey to Orthodoxy and my experiences in the Faith. He has also
enunciated well the differences in paradigms and, more importantly, what has
resulted from them - what we think Christianity 'should look like', do and
say can very much be determined by what our cultures have acculturated us to
expect. I look forward to the rest of the book, and to returning to the
earlier chapters to pull out some of the (what I think are) gems.

Of course, "Light from the Christian East" is also written in a more
'evangelical' and ecumenical style, he really walks you through every point
making sure to preemptively address any unease or dissenting point a
non-Orthodox reader might raise.  He does so almost to the point of
ecumenically polite nausea - but the points he is addressing ahead of time
are, in fact, exactly the points I hear my mother and other devout
Protestants raising in the middle of what then becomes a derailed
explanation of the faith.

Is "Light from the Christian East" the ideal book to give a catechumen?
Probably not. Is it an ideal book to give to a thoughtful Western Christian
curious about the Orthodox Church? Yes. I feel confident that such a
paradigm jolt will lead such a person to continue on to other works by
Orthodox authors writing with a more Orthodox tone - or better yet, to
visiting an Orthodox church and learning how to worship, pray and adore
rather than explain and cogitate.

Due to release date and price, I haven't yet read Fr. McGuckin's book.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good morning, Dave.
 
Christ is risen!
 
Perhaps it isn't the case that people cannot comprehend your differentiation,
but rather that they find it unnecessary.  And only a decade to develop an
Orthodox mindset?  Good heavens!  Why the rush?

Yours in Christ,
Travis (Constantine)

_______________________
Travis (Constantine) Stolz
travis.stolz@...

--- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 6:18 PM






The big problem that I am running into is that people
can not comprehend my differentiation between:
BENEFICIAL
and
NECESSARY!

i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
do it!"

I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->

--- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
<donpedrogordo@ ...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
>
> "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
> Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
line.
>
>

Christ is risen!

The determination of what one truly "needs" is not self-chosen, however.  There
are far too many "I"s in what you have written.  The toughest lesson I have had
to learn since becoming Orthodox--even tougher than obedience, frankly--is that
of humility.  It's not up to me to determine what I need or what I don't need. 
Christ nowhere says, "Pick and choose from the toolbox.  A hammer is a spade is
a level is a screwdriver--all is one and one is all."

If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most Holy
Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything else.  If
the only reason one is singing or praying to the Theotokos is out of "duty" or
because of the words on a page, then I think (drat--there's that dreaded "I"
again!) one has missed the point of the Liturgy.

Yours in Christ,
Travis (Constantine)

_______________________
Travis (Constantine) Stolz
travis.stolz@...

--- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 2:50 AM






Howdy!

I made a post to an Orthodox forum under this title and
many people don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

Maybe some of you folks do...

Here is the post:

==========
We are all building "the house of God" and we draw our tools from
one big common toolbox called "Orthodoxy."

Each person uses every tool necessary in order to attain their own
personal salvation.

The person wiring the house (for electricity) will use a different
set of tools than the person who is installing the plumbing. The
plumber will use a different set of tools than the roofer.

While we each may use a different set of tools, we are all doing the
same work -- building a house.

As a protestant convert, I may not need the "tool" of the
intercession of the Theotokos as much as a cradle.

HOWEVER

As a choir member, I am duty-bound to sing her praises during the
Divine Liturgy. If I don't I will be doing a great dis-servce to the
person standing across the aisle for whom prayers to the Theotokos
are an essential element of their personal faith. If I did
otherwise, I would be denying a fellow worker access to a tool which
is necessary for them to finish their work.
==========

Anybody here appreciate what I am trying to say?

Indeed He is risen, Constantine!
Greetings, everyone!

I just would like to add to this:

> If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most
Holy
> Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything
else.

It's true, but it's not a mistake. Being/becoming a Christian is a
process of our whole life. It just takes time for everything - to
realize one's own weakness, to realize thus the need for the saints'
help, and then to start loving them. Takes different time for
everyone. If someone doesn't feel he needs Theotokos' help - it
simply means he's not reached that point yet. But there's nothing
dangerous or wrong with being at that point of the path, as long as
the person stays on the path and keeps moving to Christ at any speed,
at least the slightest one.

I guess, it's my opinion. :)
Asking for your prayers,
Alexander

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Travis \(Constantine\)
Stolz" <travis.stolz@...> wrote:
>
> Christ is risen!
>
> The determination of what one truly "needs" is not self-chosen,
however. There are far too many "I"s in what you have written. The
toughest lesson I have had to learn since becoming Orthodox--even
tougher than obedience, frankly--is that of humility. It's not up to me
to determine what I need or what I don't need. Christ nowhere says,
"Pick and choose from the toolbox. A hammer is a spade is a level is a
screwdriver--all is one and one is all."
>
> If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most
Holy Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything
else. If the only reason one is singing or praying to the Theotokos is
out of "duty" or because of the words on a page, then I think
(drat--there's that dreaded "I" again!) one has missed the point of the
Liturgy.
>
> Yours in Christ,
> Travis (Constantine)
>
> _______________________
> Travis (Constantine) Stolz
> travis.stolz@...
>
> --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ dnaess@... wrote:
>
> From: Dave @¿@¬ dnaess@...
> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 2:50 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Howdy!
>
> I made a post to an Orthodox forum under this title and
> many people don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
>
> Maybe some of you folks do...
>
> Here is the post:
>
> ==========
> We are all building "the house of God" and we draw our tools from
> one big common toolbox called "Orthodoxy."
>
> Each person uses every tool necessary in order to attain their own
> personal salvation.
>
> The person wiring the house (for electricity) will use a different
> set of tools than the person who is installing the plumbing. The
> plumber will use a different set of tools than the roofer.
>
> While we each may use a different set of tools, we are all doing the
> same work -- building a house.
>
> As a protestant convert, I may not need the "tool" of the
> intercession of the Theotokos as much as a cradle.
>
> HOWEVER
>
> As a choir member, I am duty-bound to sing her praises during the
> Divine Liturgy. If I don't I will be doing a great dis-servce to the
> person standing across the aisle for whom prayers to the Theotokos
> are an essential element of their personal faith. If I did
> otherwise, I would be denying a fellow worker access to a tool which
> is necessary for them to finish their work.
> ==========
>
> Anybody here appreciate what I am trying to say?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Howdy!

My big problem with communicating (with just about
everybody) at this point is due to the fact that
my path has been "the scenic route."

My priest knows where I am coming from (sorta') due
to the fact that he was brought up RC, became a
Buddhist and then found Orthodoxy.

For cradles, anything outside of Orthodoxy seems to
be outside of their frame of reference. Having come
"to the East from the East," my experiences are also
outside of the frame of reference of just about every
other life long Christian (unless they have done some
real in depth study.) Even with the scholastics, it's
just something that they "may have read about" at some
point except for one -- I'll have to find out more
about him. (A priest who came to some of the Monday
presentations at my church during Lent.)

Guess I will have to travel the solitary path. My past
experiences have shown me that my path will intersect with
others and I will always find someone (read as "God will
send someone") to point the way whenever real direction
is needed.

My finding Orthodoxy reaffirmed my belief in "when the
student is ready, the teacher will appear."  I will just
watch, listen and learn where I am until I cross the path
of my next teacher.

Dave,

   During my path to Orthodoxy, I had a short stop in the East (non-Christian)
before finding the Truth.  You may have already heard of this book or read it,
but there are points of reference that you may find helpful:  Christ The Eternal
Tao, by Hieromonk Damascene.  You can find it at:

http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/

   Visit their website.  The monks are full of Truth and Beauty.

   Christ is Risen!  Truly He is Risen!

           Howdy!

My big problem with communicating (with just about
everybody) at this point is due to the fact that
my path has been "the scenic route."

My priest knows where I am coming from (sorta') due
to the fact that he was brought up RC, became a
Buddhist and then found Orthodoxy.

For cradles, anything outside of Orthodoxy seems to
be outside of their frame of reference. Having come
"to the East from the East," my experiences are also
outside of the frame of reference of just about every
other life long Christian (unless they have done some
real in depth study.) Even with the scholastics, it's
just something that they "may have read about" at some
point except for one -- I'll have to find out more
about him. (A priest who came to some of the Monday
presentations at my church during Lent.)

Guess I will have to travel the solitary path. My past
experiences have shown me that my path will intersect with
others and I will always find someone (read as "God will
send someone") to point the way whenever real direction
is needed.

My finding Orthodoxy reaffirmed my belief in "when the
student is ready, the teacher will appear." I will just
watch, listen and learn where I am until I cross the path
of my next teacher.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are also a couple of articles on Buddhist converts to Orthodoxy,
Buddhism and other eastern religions in "The Orthodox Word", a periodical
published by St. Herman of Alaska Monastery, Platina, CA where Fr. Damascene
is a monk.

Christopher


On 5/15/08, Rebecca Wilson <emmy88heaven@...> wrote:
>
>   Dave,
>
> During my path to Orthodoxy, I had a short stop in the East (non-Christian)
> before finding the Truth. You may have already heard of this book or read
> it, but there are points of reference that you may find helpful: Christ The
> Eternal Tao, by Hieromonk Damascene. You can find it at:
>
> http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/
>
> Visit their website. The monks are full of Truth and Beauty.
>
> Christ is Risen! Truly He is Risen!
>
> Howdy!
>
> My big problem with communicating (with just about
> everybody) at this point is due to the fact that
> my path has been "the scenic route."
>
> My priest knows where I am coming from (sorta') due
> to the fact that he was brought up RC, became a
> Buddhist and then found Orthodoxy.
>
> For cradles, anything outside of Orthodoxy seems to
> be outside of their frame of reference. Having come
> "to the East from the East," my experiences are also
> outside of the frame of reference of just about every
> other life long Christian (unless they have done some
> real in depth study.) Even with the scholastics, it's
> just something that they "may have read about" at some
> point except for one -- I'll have to find out more
> about him. (A priest who came to some of the Monday
> presentations at my church during Lent.)
>
> Guess I will have to travel the solitary path. My past
> experiences have shown me that my path will intersect with
> others and I will always find someone (read as "God will
> send someone") to point the way whenever real direction
> is needed.
>
> My finding Orthodoxy reaffirmed my belief in "when the
> student is ready, the teacher will appear." I will just
> watch, listen and learn where I am until I cross the path
> of my next teacher.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Christopher Orr
329 East 63rd Street
Apartment G
New York, NY 10065-7773
212 308 9733 Home
917 848 7787 Mobile
xcjorr@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Howdy Rebecca!

Thank you!

It's a GREAT book (I have it already.)

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Wilson
<emmy88heaven@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
>   During my path to Orthodoxy, I had a short stop in the East (non-
Christian) before finding the Truth.  You may have already heard of
this book or read it, but there are points of reference that you may
find helpful:  Christ The Eternal Tao, by Hieromonk Damascene.  You
can find it at:
>
> http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/
>
>   Visit their website.  The monks are full of Truth and Beauty.
>
>   Christ is Risen!  Truly He is Risen!
>
>           Howdy!
>
> My big problem with communicating (with just about
> everybody) at this point is due to the fact that
> my path has been "the scenic route."
>
> My priest knows where I am coming from (sorta') due
> to the fact that he was brought up RC, became a
> Buddhist and then found Orthodoxy.
>
> For cradles, anything outside of Orthodoxy seems to
> be outside of their frame of reference. Having come
> "to the East from the East," my experiences are also
> outside of the frame of reference of just about every
> other life long Christian (unless they have done some
> real in depth study.) Even with the scholastics, it's
> just something that they "may have read about" at some
> point except for one -- I'll have to find out more
> about him. (A priest who came to some of the Monday
> presentations at my church during Lent.)
>
> Guess I will have to travel the solitary path. My past
> experiences have shown me that my path will intersect with
> others and I will always find someone (read as "God will
> send someone") to point the way whenever real direction
> is needed.
>
> My finding Orthodoxy reaffirmed my belief in "when the
> student is ready, the teacher will appear." I will just
> watch, listen and learn where I am until I cross the path
> of my next teacher.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Christopher, do you know if they will put the lectures online afterwards? I hope
so, some of them look very interesting.
Love in Christ,
phos

To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com; 93pino@...
From: xcjorr@...
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:40:30 -0400
Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Women in Orthodoxy Past & Present Conference




















             Women in Orthodoxy Past & Present

Conference<http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2008/05/women-in-orthodoxy-past-presen\
t.html>



Friday, June 20 & Saturday, June 21, 2008



*A Conference for Women of All Ages organized with the blessing of Bishop

Gabriel of Manhattan*



Church of the Intercession, 13 Alvin Street, Glen Cove, NY 11542



OrthodoxWomensConference@... or 703-405-5064



*Lectures Include:*



*The Mother of God and Orthodox Women in Pre-revolutionary Russia*



Professor Vera Shevzov



*Being a Female Member of the Orthodox Church*



Professor Emerita Marina Ledkovsky



*St. Kassia the Nun: Activist, Poetess, Hymnographer, & a Woman Ahead of Her

Time*



Eugenia Temidis, Director of the Holy Myrrhbearers Women's Choir



*Orthodox Women at Church in Byzantium: Glimpses of a Lost World*



Fr. Robert Taft



*What is Ritual Im/Purity and Why?*



Sister Vassa Larin



*Orthodox Women and Their Confessors in the Russian Empire, 1700-2000*



Professor Nadieszda Kizenko



*Russian Orthodox Women and Social Work*



Natalia Ermolaev [friend of orrologion]



Friday and Saturday Lectures: $45 (Student Fee: $30)



One day of lectures: $30



*Registration payment due by May 30th *



*Holy Myrrhbearers Women's Choir *will sing at Saturday's Vigil and Sunday's

Liturgy!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























_________________________________________________________________
Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh\
_family_safety_052008

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

_Click  here: Seminary dean sees American Orthodoxy evolving- cleveland.com_
(http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/121102184
2232061.xml&coll=2)



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can ask my friend Natalia and see.  If not, perhaps she will have access
to some of the presentations and be able to share them.

Christopher


On 5/17/08, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
>
>
> Christopher, do you know if they will put the lectures online afterwards? I
> hope so, some of them look very interesting.
> Love in Christ,
> phos
>
> To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>;
> 93pino@... <93pino%40gmail.com>
> From: xcjorr@... <xcjorr%40gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:40:30 -0400
> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Women in Orthodoxy Past & Present
> Conference
>
> Women in Orthodoxy Past & Present
>
> Conference<
> http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2008/05/women-in-orthodoxy-past-present.html
> >
>
> Friday, June 20 & Saturday, June 21, 2008
>
> *A Conference for Women of All Ages organized with the blessing of Bishop
>
> Gabriel of Manhattan*
>
> Church of the Intercession, 13 Alvin Street, Glen Cove, NY 11542
>
> OrthodoxWomensConference@... <OrthodoxWomensConference%40gmail.com>or
703-405-5064
>
> *Lectures Include:*
>
> *The Mother of God and Orthodox Women in Pre-revolutionary Russia*
>
> Professor Vera Shevzov
>
> *Being a Female Member of the Orthodox Church*
>
> Professor Emerita Marina Ledkovsky
>
> *St. Kassia the Nun: Activist, Poetess, Hymnographer, & a Woman Ahead of
> Her
>
> Time*
>
> Eugenia Temidis, Director of the Holy Myrrhbearers Women's Choir
>
> *Orthodox Women at Church in Byzantium: Glimpses of a Lost World*
>
> Fr. Robert Taft
>
> *What is Ritual Im/Purity and Why?*
>
> Sister Vassa Larin
>
> *Orthodox Women and Their Confessors in the Russian Empire, 1700-2000*
>
> Professor Nadieszda Kizenko
>
> *Russian Orthodox Women and Social Work*
>
> Natalia Ermolaev [friend of orrologion]
>
> Friday and Saturday Lectures: $45 (Student Fee: $30)
>
> One day of lectures: $30
>
> *Registration payment due by May 30th *
>
> *Holy Myrrhbearers Women's Choir *will sing at Saturday's Vigil and
> Sunday's
>
> Liturgy!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
>
>
http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh\
_family_safety_052008
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Christopher Orr
329 East 63rd Street
Apartment G
New York, NY 10065-7773
212 308 9733 Home
917 848 7787 Mobile
xcjorr@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe it's me but nothing loaded when I clicked on this link?

byza7@... wrote:          _Click here: Seminary dean sees American Orthodoxy
evolving- cleveland.com_
(http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/121102184
2232061.xml&coll=2)

**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The link broke leaving off the info on the line immediately following the
hyperlink.  You have to make sure the entire web address is in the browser
that opens up - all the way to "coll=2".  You can cut and paste whatever
didn't make it into your browser.
Hopefully this is the full, unbroken link:
http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/12110218422\
32061.xml&coll=2


Christopher


On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Rebecca Wilson <emmy88heaven@...>
wrote:

>   Maybe it's me but nothing loaded when I clicked on this link?
>
> byza7@... <byza7%40aol.com> wrote: _Click here: Seminary dean sees
> American Orthodoxy evolving- cleveland.com_
> (
> http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/121102184
> 2232061.xml&coll=2)
>
> **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
>
> favorites at AOL Food.
> (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Christopher Orr
329 East 63rd Street
Apartment G
New York, NY 10065-7773
212 308 9733 Home
917 848 7787 Mobile
xcjorr@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It worked!  Thanks.
   Christ is Risen!

Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
           The link broke leaving off the info on the line immediately following
the
hyperlink. You have to make sure the entire web address is in the browser
that opens up - all the way to "coll=2". You can cut and paste whatever
didn't make it into your browser.
Hopefully this is the full, unbroken link:
http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/12110218422\
32061.xml&coll=2

Christopher

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Rebecca Wilson <emmy88heaven@...>
wrote:

> Maybe it's me but nothing loaded when I clicked on this link?
>
> byza7@... <byza7%40aol.com> wrote: _Click here: Seminary dean sees
> American Orthodoxy evolving- cleveland.com_
> (
> http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/121102184
> 2232061.xml&coll=2)
>
> **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
>
> favorites at AOL Food.
> (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Christopher Orr
329 East 63rd Street
Apartment G
New York, NY 10065-7773
212 308 9733 Home
917 848 7787 Mobile
xcjorr@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Howdy Todd!

Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!

The total depravity of man would seem to contradict
the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis.

How is man to "become a god" (lower case "g") unless
there is still some element within man that would allow
God to work this change within him?

Dave


--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Fr John Fenton
<frfenton@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Todd,
>
> Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)
>
> You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give
straight-forward answers.
>
> 1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly
Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often
ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly
ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox
Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original
guilt which is also rejected by the Church.
>
> 2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God
theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a
dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human
characteristic.
>
> Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced
and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading,
let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.
>
>
>
>
> Fr John W Fenton, Priest
> Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
> A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian
Archdiocese of North America
>
> frfenton@...
> www.holyincarnation.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
> To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
> Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
>
> I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer
some
> insight on.
>
> Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans
after
> the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of
thier
> sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
> (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
> right words...)
>
> Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory?
(ie
> the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my
limited
> knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.
>
> Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
> Todd
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

An interesting Orthodox/Lutheran article recommended to me by my friend
Natalia Ermolaev, Doctoral Candidate, Columbia University:

Freeze, Gregory L. "Lutheranism and Orthodoxy in Russia: A Critical
Reassessment." *Luther zwischen Kulturen*. Ed. Hans Medick. Goettingen:
Vanderhoek, 2004. 297-317.

Christopher


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Freeze, Gregory L. "Lutheranism and Orthodoxy in Russia: A Critical
Reassessment." *Luther zwischen Kulturen*. Ed. Hans Medick. Goettingen:
Vanderhoek, 2004. 297-317.

Ja, aber auf Deutch?

Anastasia
e-mail:  anastasiatheo01@...
blog:  http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ich keine nicht.

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Anastasia Theodoridis <
anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:

>    Freeze, Gregory L. "Lutheranism and Orthodoxy in Russia: A Critical
> Reassessment." *Luther zwischen Kulturen*. Ed. Hans Medick. Goettingen:
> Vanderhoek, 2004. 297-317.
>
> Ja, aber auf Deutch?
>
> Anastasia
> e-mail: anastasiatheo01@... <anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net>
> blog: http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Christopher Orr
917 848 7787 Mobile
xcjorr@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How do you think Orthodox and Lutheran sermons differ? I've heard the critique
that Lutheran sermons are better (but then again, that was from a Lutheran)
especially because Lutheran sermons focus on law and gospel.

Love in Christ,
                  phos

_________________________________________________________________
E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]