I just discovered that Igumen Tryphon (Parsons), Abbot of All-Merciful
Saviour Monastery <http://www.vashonmonks.com/> (ROCOR), Vashon Island, WA,
is a convert from Lutheranism - and not just any Lutheranism, but
WELS<http://www.wels.net/>and then
CLC <http://clclutheran.org/>! Visit Fr. Tryphon's
blog<http://morningoffering.blogspot.com/>and the monastery
website, and order Monastery Blend C <http://vashonmonks.com/coffee.htm>
offee <http://vashonmonks.com/coffee.htm>.

Christopher


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got the sense that he was raised WELS and then CLC; perhaps he became LCMS
later in life or when he went to college, etc.  Outside of the Midwest it
can be hard to get to the 'right' kind of Lutheran church.  I ran into that
problem in Boston and New York, and just had a conversation with my mom
about it when they were visiting PA.  My sister had the same problem going
to college in Europe.  Perhaps the same was the case in WA or wherever Fr.
Tryphon lived at different times in his life.

One thing we can all agree on is he wasn't ELCA!  :)

(I'm getting flashbacks of that episode of *Cheers*...  Incidentally, the
initial Monastery grounds on Vashon Is. were donated by John Ratzenberger,
Cliff on *Cheers*.)

Christopher


On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Richard K. Futrell <
PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Christopher et al:
>
> I met Fr. Tryphon years ago. The monastary blends coffee. The
> blends are not cheap but they are good!
>
> When we talked, he told me he was raised in the LC-MS. So he
> obviously traveled the more-and-more conservative road (at least in
> Lutheran terms) before he swam the Bosphorus.
>
> It would be interesting to read about his journey East.
>
> --
> Rich Futrell, Pastor
>
>
> Quoting Christopher Orr :
>
> I just discovered that Igumen Tryphon (Parsons), Abbot of All-Merciful
> Saviour Monastery (ROCOR), Vashon Island, WA,
> is a convert from Lutheranism - and not just any Lutheranism, but
> WELSand then
>
> CLC ! Visit Fr. Tryphon's
> blogand the monastery
>
> website, and order Monastery Blend C
> offee .
>
> Christopher
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, Christopher,
 
Is, "Incidentally, the initial Monastery grounds on Vashon Is. were donated by
John Ratzenberger, Cliff on *Cheers*", TRUE?!
 
Rebecca

--- On Thu, 9/2/10, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:


From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Ex-Lutheran Abbot
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 2:53 PM


I got the sense that he was raised WELS and then CLC; perhaps he became LCMS
later in life or when he went to college, etc.  Outside of the Midwest it
can be hard to get to the 'right' kind of Lutheran church.  I ran into that
problem in Boston and New York, and just had a conversation with my mom
about it when they were visiting PA.  My sister had the same problem going
to college in Europe.  Perhaps the same was the case in WA or wherever Fr.
Tryphon lived at different times in his life.

One thing we can all agree on is he wasn't ELCA!  :)

(I'm getting flashbacks of that episode of *Cheers*...  Incidentally, the
initial Monastery grounds on Vashon Is. were donated by John Ratzenberger,
Cliff on *Cheers*.)

Christopher


On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Richard K. Futrell <
PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Christopher et al:
>
> I met Fr. Tryphon years ago. The monastary blends coffee. The
> blends are not cheap but they are good!
>
> When we talked, he told me he was raised in the LC-MS. So he
> obviously traveled the more-and-more conservative road (at least in
> Lutheran terms) before he swam the Bosphorus.
>
> It would be interesting to read about his journey East.
>
> --
> Rich Futrell, Pastor
>
>
> Quoting Christopher Orr :
>
> I just discovered that Igumen Tryphon (Parsons), Abbot of All-Merciful
> Saviour Monastery (ROCOR), Vashon Island, WA,
> is a convert from Lutheranism - and not just any Lutheranism, but
> WELSand then
>
> CLC ! Visit Fr. Tryphon's
> blogand the monastery
>
> website, and order Monastery Blend C
> offee .
>
> Christopher
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yup, it's on the website: John and Georgia Ratzenberger.  Don't know what the
connection was then, or now.

Christopher

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebecca Wilson <emmy88heaven@...>
Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 14:07:25
To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Ex-Lutheran Abbot

Hello, Christopher,
 
Is, "Incidentally, the initial Monastery grounds on Vashon Is. were donated by
John Ratzenberger, Cliff on *Cheers*", TRUE?!
 
Rebecca

--- On Thu, 9/2/10, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:


From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Ex-Lutheran Abbot
To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 2:53 PM


I got the sense that he was raised WELS and then CLC; perhaps he became LCMS
later in life or when he went to college, etc.  Outside of the Midwest it
can be hard to get to the 'right' kind of Lutheran church.  I ran into that
problem in Boston and New York, and just had a conversation with my mom
about it when they were visiting PA.  My sister had the same problem going
to college in Europe.  Perhaps the same was the case in WA or wherever Fr.
Tryphon lived at different times in his life.

One thing we can all agree on is he wasn't ELCA!  :)

(I'm getting flashbacks of that episode of *Cheers*...  Incidentally, the
initial Monastery grounds on Vashon Is. were donated by John Ratzenberger,
Cliff on *Cheers*.)

Christopher


On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Richard K. Futrell <
PastorFutrell@...> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Christopher et al:
>
> I met Fr. Tryphon years ago. The monastary blends coffee. The
> blends are not cheap but they are good!
>
> When we talked, he told me he was raised in the LC-MS. So he
> obviously traveled the more-and-more conservative road (at least in
> Lutheran terms) before he swam the Bosphorus.
>
> It would be interesting to read about his journey East.
>
> --
> Rich Futrell, Pastor
>
>
> Quoting Christopher Orr :
>
> I just discovered that Igumen Tryphon (Parsons), Abbot of All-Merciful
> Saviour Monastery (ROCOR), Vashon Island, WA,
> is a convert from Lutheranism - and not just any Lutheranism, but
> WELSand then
>
> CLC ! Visit Fr. Tryphon's
> blogand the monastery
>
> website, and order Monastery Blend C
> offee .
>
> Christopher
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and dictionary
looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates to the whole
faith vs. works thing, etc.

If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly appreciated.

- Tim

Tim,

Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
freedom.  Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.  The power
holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
Hades by death.  Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
consistently accomplish that will.  And, of course, his will cannot
accomplish his release and return to God!

Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
our Passover Lamb, Christ.  Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
say yes or no, so that is what God requires.  Faith in the heart must work
through outward confession and commitment.

Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
commandments of God.  This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ.  Again, it's about
willingly and purposefully growing closer to God.  Man is invited to do it,
and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible.  God is not
passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer.  The Holy
Spirit perfects, He does not take over.  The demons do not respect free will
and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
man.

In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works.  His work is
beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
(Grace) to man.  The believing man is the active man.  Faith works.  In
Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
works in gratitude.  In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
potency of his personal spiritual warfare.

I hope this is a decent start.

In Christ,
Benjamin Harju


On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:

>
>
> I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
> to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
>
> If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> - Tim
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and the idea
that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's energies and
presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at all.

That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.

Christopher
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy

Tim,

Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
freedom.  Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.  The power
holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
Hades by death.  Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
consistently accomplish that will.  And, of course, his will cannot
accomplish his release and return to God!

Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
our Passover Lamb, Christ.  Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
say yes or no, so that is what God requires.  Faith in the heart must work
through outward confession and commitment.

Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
commandments of God.  This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ.  Again, it's about
willingly and purposefully growing closer to God.  Man is invited to do it,
and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible.  God is not
passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer.  The Holy
Spirit perfects, He does not take over.  The demons do not respect free will
and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
man.

In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works.  His work is
beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
(Grace) to man.  The believing man is the active man.  Faith works.  In
Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
works in gratitude.  In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
potency of his personal spiritual warfare.

I hope this is a decent start.

In Christ,
Benjamin Harju


On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:

>
>
> I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
> to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
>
> If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> - Tim
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks very much, Mr. Harju. I appreciate your definition. The way you "broke it
down" (as though that can truly ever be done) is good for someone like I, who am
so new to this thing called Orthodoxy.


--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
wrote:
>
> Tim,
>
> Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
> freedom.  Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
> He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.  The power
> holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
> So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
> Hades by death.  Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
> though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> consistently accomplish that will.  And, of course, his will cannot
> accomplish his release and return to God!
>
> Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
> our Passover Lamb, Christ.  Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
> say yes or no, so that is what God requires.  Faith in the heart must work
> through outward confession and commitment.
>
> Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
> and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
> commandments of God.  This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
> repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ.  Again, it's about
> willingly and purposefully growing closer to God.  Man is invited to do it,
> and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible.  God is not
> passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer.  The Holy
> Spirit perfects, He does not take over.  The demons do not respect free will
> and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
> man.
>
> In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works.  His work is
> beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
> (Grace) to man.  The believing man is the active man.  Faith works.  In
> Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
> works in gratitude.  In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
> receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
> potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
>
> I hope this is a decent start.
>
> In Christ,
> Benjamin Harju
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
> > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> >
> > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > - Tim
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.

1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always
appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has always
been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped me overcome
some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being raised Lutheran.

2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies. I am
still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However, despite my
lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, xcjorr@... wrote:
>
> I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and the
idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's energies
and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at all.
>
> That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
>
> Christopher
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
> Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
> Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
>
> Tim,
>
> Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
> freedom.  Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
> He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.  The power
> holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
> So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled to
> Hades by death.  Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
> though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> consistently accomplish that will.  And, of course, his will cannot
> accomplish his release and return to God!
>
> Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected by
> our Passover Lamb, Christ.  Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
> say yes or no, so that is what God requires.  Faith in the heart must work
> through outward confession and commitment.
>
> Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of sin
> and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in the
> commandments of God.  This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
> repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ.  Again, it's about
> willingly and purposefully growing closer to God.  Man is invited to do it,
> and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible.  God is not
> passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer.  The Holy
> Spirit perfects, He does not take over.  The demons do not respect free will
> and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over a
> man.
>
> In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works.  His work is
> beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal Energies
> (Grace) to man.  The believing man is the active man.  Faith works.  In
> Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received it
> works in gratitude.  In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
> receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers the
> potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
>
> I hope this is a decent start.
>
> In Christ,
> Benjamin Harju
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it relates
> > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> >
> > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > - Tim
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
Christ! - earns salvation.  Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into reimbursement
or paying on one's behalf.

Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone.  A soldier jumping on a grenade
to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply sacrificing,
giving what need not have been given.  Christ's sacrifice is not to any
person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and descent
into Hades.

You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction.  I don't think I
have beyond the textbook definition.  The shorthand is: God is present
Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions.  Grace is in some sense
the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.

Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not just
the predestined, the elect, those that believe.  We are all imbued with
grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is not
reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not all).

Christopher




On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:

>
>
> Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.
>
> 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
> Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always
> appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has
> always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped
> me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being
> raised Lutheran.
>
> 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies.
> I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However,
> despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.
>
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> xcjorr@... wrote:
> >
> > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and
> the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's
> energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at
> all.
> >
> > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> >
> > Christopher
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
> > Sender:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > To:
<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Reply-To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> >
> > Tim,
> >
> > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
> > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
> > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
> > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
> > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled
> to
> > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
> > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
> > accomplish his release and return to God!
> >
> > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected
> by
> > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
> > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
> > through outward confession and commitment.
> >
> > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of
> sin
> > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in
> the
> > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
> > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
> > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do
> it,
> > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
> > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
> > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free
> will
> > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over
> a
> > man.
> >
> > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
> > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
> Energies
> > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
> > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received
> it
> > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
> > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers
> the
> > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> >
> > I hope this is a decent start.
> >
> > In Christ,
> > Benjamin Harju
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it
> relates
> > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > >
> > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> > > appreciated.
> > >
> > > - Tim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
> Christ! - earns salvation.  Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
> including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into reimbursement
> or paying on one's behalf.
>
> Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone.  A soldier jumping on a grenade
> to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply sacrificing,
> giving what need not have been given.  Christ's sacrifice is not to any
> person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and descent
> into Hades.
>
> You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction.  I don't think I
> have beyond the textbook definition.  The shorthand is: God is present
> Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions.  Grace is in some sense
> the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
>
> Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not just
> the predestined, the elect, those that believe.  We are all imbued with
> grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is not
> reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not all).
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.
> >
> > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
> > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have always
> > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has
> > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It helped
> > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being
> > raised Lutheran.
> >
> > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and Energies.
> > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However,
> > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get at.
> >
> >
> > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > xcjorr@ wrote:
> > >
> > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and
> > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's
> > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem at
> > all.
> > >
> > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> > >
> > > Christopher
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
> > > Sender:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > > To:
<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >
> > > Reply-To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> > >
> > > Tim,
> > >
> > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of that
> > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the devil.
> > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
> > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co 15:56).
> > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is shackled
> > to
> > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
> > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
> > > accomplish his release and return to God!
> > >
> > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release effected
> > by
> > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do is
> > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must work
> > > through outward confession and commitment.
> > >
> > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of
> > sin
> > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in
> > the
> > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
> > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
> > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do
> > it,
> > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
> > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
> > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free
> > will
> > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take over
> > a
> > > man.
> > >
> > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
> > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
> > Energies
> > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
> > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received
> > it
> > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active faith
> > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers
> > the
> > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> > >
> > > I hope this is a decent start.
> > >
> > > In Christ,
> > > Benjamin Harju
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it
> > relates
> > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > > >
> > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> > > > appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > - Tim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through us,
and us cooperating with that said work?


--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...>
wrote:
>
> Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
>
> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> >
> > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
> > Christ! - earns salvation.  Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
> > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into reimbursement
> > or paying on one's behalf.
> >
> > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone.  A soldier jumping on a grenade
> > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply sacrificing,
> > giving what need not have been given.  Christ's sacrifice is not to any
> > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and descent
> > into Hades.
> >
> > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction.  I don't think I
> > have beyond the textbook definition.  The shorthand is: God is present
> > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions.  Grace is in some sense
> > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
> >
> > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not just
> > the predestined, the elect, those that believe.  We are all imbued with
> > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is not
> > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not all).
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have said.
> > >
> > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement between
> > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have
always
> > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there has
> > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It
helped
> > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to being
> > > raised Lutheran.
> > >
> > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
Energies.
> > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage). However,
> > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to get
at.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > xcjorr@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned and
> > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than God's
> > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a problem
at
> > > all.
> > > >
> > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> > > >
> > > > Christopher
> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
> > > > Sender:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > > > To:
<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > Reply-To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> > > >
> > > > Tim,
> > > >
> > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect of
that
> > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the
devil.
> > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The power
> > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co
15:56).
> > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is
shackled
> > > to
> > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his will,
> > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
> > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
> > > >
> > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release
effected
> > > by
> > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can do
is
> > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart must
work
> > > > through outward confession and commitment.
> > > >
> > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own love of
> > > sin
> > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's Grace in
> > > the
> > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as daily
> > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's about
> > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to do
> > > it,
> > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is not
> > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The Holy
> > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect free
> > > will
> > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can take
over
> > > a
> > > > man.
> > > >
> > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work is
> > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
> > > Energies
> > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works. In
> > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is received
> > > it
> > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active
faith
> > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and furthers
> > > the
> > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this is a decent start.
> > > >
> > > > In Christ,
> > > > Benjamin Harju
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research and
> > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how it
> > > relates
> > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be greatly
> > > > > appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Tim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Yes, basically.  If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you will
continue to feel free to address them.

Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
synergy is a must.  In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only half-believing, if
there could be such a thing).  The role of synergy comes to the fore in
daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments.  Here the Christian is
faced with his/her own sin and need for God.  The Church, through 2000 years
of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the passions -
and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle is a
profitable one.  Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must for
the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy, because
synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's own
sin and toward the gifts that God offers.  Struggle is key; it is the
constant activity of faith.

A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock.  It outlines the
influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
manner of spiritual struggle.  I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.

The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not find
in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a seriousness
that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
sin!).  I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my bluntness,
but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone.  The practice
of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us.  It's the
difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris.  It is also how
the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.

In Christ,
Benjamin Harju

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:

>
>
> So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through
> us, and us cooperating with that said work?
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
> >
> > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
> > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
> > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
> reimbursement
> > > or paying on one's behalf.
> > >
> > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a
> grenade
> > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
> sacrificing,
> > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
> > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and
> descent
> > > into Hades.
> > >
> > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think
> I
> > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
> > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some
> sense
> > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
> > >
> > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not
> just
> > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
> > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is
> not
> > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not
> all).
> > >
> > > Christopher
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have
> said.
> > > >
> > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
> between
> > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have
> always
> > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there
> has
> > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It
> helped
> > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to
> being
> > > > raised Lutheran.
> > > >
> > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
> Energies.
> > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
> However,
> > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to
> get at.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned
> and
> > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than
> God's
> > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a
> problem at
> > > > all.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> > > > >
> > > > > Christopher
> > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
> > > > > Sender:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > > > > To:
<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > Reply-To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim,
> > > > >
> > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect
> of that
> > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the
> devil.
> > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The
> power
> > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co
> 15:56).
> > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is
> shackled
> > > > to
> > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his
> will,
> > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
> > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
> > > > >
> > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release
> effected
> > > > by
> > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can
> do is
> > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart
> must work
> > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own
> love of
> > > > sin
> > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's
> Grace in
> > > > the
> > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as
> daily
> > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's
> about
> > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to
> do
> > > > it,
> > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is
> not
> > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The
> Holy
> > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect
> free
> > > > will
> > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can
> take over
> > > > a
> > > > > man.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work
> is
> > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
> > > > Energies
> > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works.
> In
> > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is
> received
> > > > it
> > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active
> faith
> > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and
> furthers
> > > > the
> > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
> > > > >
> > > > > In Christ,
> > > > > Benjamin Harju
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research
> and
> > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how
> it
> > > > relates
> > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
> greatly
> > > > > > appreciated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences between a
theology of the cross and a theology of glory.  Ben Harju discusses this
difference
here<http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html>an\
d
here<http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
.

Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I thought it
important to point out a few things.

First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year: today's
feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
Life-Giving
Cross<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610>(Septemb\
er
14), Great
and Holy
Friday<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
Friday), and the Procession
of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
Lord<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161>(August
1).

In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross throughout
the year: each and every Friday of the year.  The Octoechos (Paraklitiki)
texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve around
the Cross on Fridays.  There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one for
each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation throughout
the year.  A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.

To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14 services
of the Orthodox Church see
here<http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
.

Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and the
Mystery of Salvation
here<http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I went to Divine Liturgy for the Exaltation of the Cross last night. Very
informative. And to be honest, it was the most "Christ-centred" "Cross-focused"
sermon I've heard in a long time.

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences between a
> theology of the cross and a theology of glory.  Ben Harju discusses this
> difference
here<http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html>an\
d
>
here<http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
> .
>
> Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I thought it
> important to point out a few things.
>
> First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year: today's
> feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
> Life-Giving
Cross<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610>(Septemb\
er
> 14), Great
> and Holy
Friday<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
> Friday), and the Procession
> of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
> Lord<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161>(August
> 1).
>
> In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross throughout
> the year: each and every Friday of the year.  The Octoechos (Paraklitiki)
> texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
> 'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve around
> the Cross on Fridays.  There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one for
> each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation throughout
> the year.  A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
> here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
> here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.
>
> To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14 services
> of the Orthodox Church see
> here<http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
> .
>
> Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and the
> Mystery of Salvation
> here<http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
> .
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks, Mr. Harju.

What exactly do you mean by "assimilate" our salvation? As in living it out and
making it a part of our everyday life?

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>
wrote:
>
> Yes, basically.  If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you will
> continue to feel free to address them.
>
> Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
> something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
> synergy is a must.  In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
> ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only half-believing, if
> there could be such a thing).  The role of synergy comes to the fore in
> daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments.  Here the Christian is
> faced with his/her own sin and need for God.  The Church, through 2000 years
> of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the passions -
> and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle is a
> profitable one.  Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must for
> the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy, because
> synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's own
> sin and toward the gifts that God offers.  Struggle is key; it is the
> constant activity of faith.
>
> A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
> spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock.  It outlines the
> influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
> manner of spiritual struggle.  I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.
>
> The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not find
> in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a seriousness
> that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
> sin!).  I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my bluntness,
> but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone.  The practice
> of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
> sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us.  It's the
> difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris.  It is also how
> the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.
>
> In Christ,
> Benjamin Harju
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and through
> > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
> >
> > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for awhile.
> > >
> > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one - including
> > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone -
> > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
> > reimbursement
> > > > or paying on one's behalf.
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a
> > grenade
> > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
> > sacrificing,
> > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to any
> > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and
> > descent
> > > > into Hades.
> > > >
> > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't think
> > I
> > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is present
> > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some
> > sense
> > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
> > > >
> > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things - not
> > just
> > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued with
> > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace is
> > not
> > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not
> > all).
> > > >
> > > > Christopher
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have
> > said.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
> > between
> > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I have
> > always
> > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that there
> > has
> > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned. It
> > helped
> > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due to
> > being
> > > > > raised Lutheran.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
> > Energies.
> > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
> > However,
> > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying to
> > get at.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is earned
> > and
> > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather than
> > God's
> > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a
> > problem at
> > > > > all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Christopher
> > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
> > > > > > Sender:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > > > > > To:
<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reply-To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tim,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's respect
> > of that
> > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of the
> > devil.
> > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians. The
> > power
> > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin (1Co
> > 15:56).
> > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and is
> > shackled
> > > > > to
> > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his
> > will,
> > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully or
> > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will cannot
> > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the release
> > effected
> > > > > by
> > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man can
> > do is
> > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart
> > must work
> > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own
> > love of
> > > > > sin
> > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's
> > Grace in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known as
> > daily
> > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again, it's
> > about
> > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is invited to
> > do
> > > > > it,
> > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God is
> > not
> > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer. The
> > Holy
> > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not respect
> > free
> > > > > will
> > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can
> > take over
> > > > > a
> > > > > > man.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His work
> > is
> > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His personal
> > > > > Energies
> > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith works.
> > In
> > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is
> > received
> > > > > it
> > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this active
> > faith
> > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and
> > furthers
> > > > > the
> > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In Christ,
> > > > > > Benjamin Harju
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of research
> > and
> > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy, how
> > it
> > > > > relates
> > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
> > greatly
> > > > > > > appreciated.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Tim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Glory to God!

Definitely take a look at the texts from Vespers and Matins (Orthros), too,
if all you attended was Divine Liturgy.  The Divine Liturgy is mainly
unchangeable; the meat of the theology of the feast is to be found in the
changeable sections of Vespers and Matins (Orthros).

I remember during my first visits to an Orthodox church being shocked at
home radically Cross and Christ focused the services were - and how
Trinitarian.  People were making the sign of the Cross all the time, the
priest was blessing with the Cross, the Trinity was exclaimed constantly,
and every reference to the Mother of God was accompanied by her Son's Cross
underlining that any focus on her is focus on her Son and our God.

Christopher



On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:10 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:

>
>
> I went to Divine Liturgy for the Exaltation of the Cross last night. Very
> informative. And to be honest, it was the most "Christ-centred"
> "Cross-focused" sermon I've heard in a long time.
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
> >
> > The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences between a
> > theology of the cross and a theology of glory. Ben Harju discusses this
> > difference here<
> http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html
> >and
> > here<
> http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
>
> > .
> >
> > Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I thought
> it
> > important to point out a few things.
> >
> > First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year: today's
> > feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
> > Life-Giving Cross<
> http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610
> >(September
> > 14), Great
> > and Holy Friday<
> http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
>
> > Friday), and the Procession
> > of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
> > Lord<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161
> >(August
>
> > 1).
> >
> > In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross
> throughout
> > the year: each and every Friday of the year. The Octoechos (Paraklitiki)
> > texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
> > 'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve around
> > the Cross on Fridays. There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one for
> > each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation
> throughout
> > the year. A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
> > here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
> > here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.
>
> >
> > To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14
> services
> > of the Orthodox Church see
> > here<
> http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
>
> > .
> >
> > Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and the
> > Mystery of Salvation
> > here<
> http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
> > .
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, like that.  Also in the sense that our everyday life becomes an
expression of the life of Jesus Christ, with whom we are united in
communion.  I chose the word assimilate because it expresses the idea that
the salvation that our Lord accomplishes is something that is kneaded
throughout the whole of a person.  Our activity not only is the work of
faith, but is also our cooperation with the goal of Divine Grace.  Apart
from our active engagement of God's willing and working in us, we never get
beyond the potential or theory of what we believe Christ has done for us.
All this is to say that Christ's cross and resurrection are intended to
accomplish a change, a healing, in each unique person.  God will not force
this healing change, just as He did not force Adam and Eve to remain
faithful, so it is left to us to take responsibility for our own involvement
in the salvation Christ has for us.  Like dough we need to be kneaded, but
like those who are one day to be held accountable for themselves we must
freely struggle to submit to the Creator's deft hands.

In Christ,
Benjamin Harju


On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:12 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:

>
>
> Thanks, Mr. Harju.
>
> What exactly do you mean by "assimilate" our salvation? As in living it out
> and making it a part of our everyday life?
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you
> will
> > continue to feel free to address them.
> >
> > Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
> > something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
> > synergy is a must. In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
> > ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only half-believing,
> if
> > there could be such a thing). The role of synergy comes to the fore in
> > daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments. Here the Christian
> is
> > faced with his/her own sin and need for God. The Church, through 2000
> years
> > of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the
> passions -
> > and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle
> is a
> > profitable one. Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must for
> > the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy,
> because
> > synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's
> own
> > sin and toward the gifts that God offers. Struggle is key; it is the
> > constant activity of faith.
> >
> > A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
> > spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock. It outlines the
> > influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
> > manner of spiritual struggle. I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.
> >
> > The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not
> find
> > in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a
> seriousness
> > that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
> > sin!). I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my bluntness,
> > but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone. The practice
> > of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
> > sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us. It's the
> > difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris. It is also how
> > the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.
> >
> > In Christ,
> > Benjamin Harju
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and
> through
> > > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
> > >
> > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for
> awhile.
> > > >
> > > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one -
> including
> > > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if anyone
> -
> > > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
> > > reimbursement
> > > > > or paying on one's behalf.
> > > > >
> > > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on a
> > > grenade
> > > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
> > > sacrificing,
> > > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not to
> any
> > > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross, and
> > > descent
> > > > > into Hades.
> > > > >
> > > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't
> think
> > > I
> > > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is
> present
> > > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in some
> > > sense
> > > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things -
> not
> > > just
> > > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued
> with
> > > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this grace
> is
> > > not
> > > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but not
> > > all).
> > > > >
> > > > > Christopher
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you have
> > > said.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
> > > between
> > > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I
> have
> > > always
> > > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that
> there
> > > has
> > > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not earned.
> It
> > > helped
> > > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up due
> to
> > > being
> > > > > > raised Lutheran.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence and
> > > Energies.
> > > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
> > > However,
> > > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are trying
> to
> > > get at.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is
> earned
> > > and
> > > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather
> than
> > > God's
> > > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be a
> > > problem at
> > > > > > all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Christopher
> > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
> > > > > > > Sender:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > > > > > > To:
<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Reply-To:
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tim,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's
> respect
> > > of that
> > > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny of
> the
> > > devil.
> > > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.
> The
> > > power
> > > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin
> (1Co
> > > 15:56).
> > > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and
> is
> > > shackled
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise his
> > > will,
> > > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot fully
> or
> > > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will
> cannot
> > > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the
> release
> > > effected
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen man
> can
> > > do is
> > > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the heart
> > > must work
> > > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your own
> > > love of
> > > > > > sin
> > > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by God's
> > > Grace in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known
> as
> > > daily
> > > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again,
> it's
> > > about
> > > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is
> invited to
> > > do
> > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible. God
> is
> > > not
> > > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's Energizer.
> The
> > > Holy
> > > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not
> respect
> > > free
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they can
> > > take over
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > man.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His
> work
> > > is
> > > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His
> personal
> > > > > > Energies
> > > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith
> works.
> > > In
> > > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what is
> > > received
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this
> active
> > > faith
> > > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God and
> > > furthers
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In Christ,
> > > > > > > Benjamin Harju
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of
> research
> > > and
> > > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy,
> how
> > > it
> > > > > > relates
> > > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
> > > greatly
> > > > > > > > appreciated.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Tim
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The link I gave before to a Fr. Stephen Freeman post gets at something like
this, too.

Also, here's a pertinent selection from St. Anthony the Great (+356) whose
life was written by St. Athanasius:

    "We remain good through resembling
God"<http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/04/turning-to-god-we-have-cured-our.htm\
l>

  God is good, dispassionate and immutable. Now someone who thinks it
reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how in
that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are
good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, while turning away from the
wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God
neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are
passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that
would mean He is swayed by pleasure . . . He is good, and He only bestows
blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the
other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him; but
if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By
living in holiness, we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our
enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is
our own sins that prevent God from shining within us, and expose us to the
demons who punish us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain
release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made
Him change, but that through our actions and our turning to God we have
cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God’s goodness. Thus
to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides
itself from the blind."

- Excerpt from The Philokalia, Vol. 1, Text 150; Engl. tr. by
Palmer-Sherrard-Ware, p. 352. Quoted in Orthodox Dogmatic
Theology<http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/dogmatics_pomazansky.ht\
m>by
Protopresbyter
Michael Pomazansky [+1988]; tr. and ed. by Hieromonk Seraphim Rose [+1982]
(Platina, CA: St. Herman Press, 1997), p.350-351.


Christopher
**


On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...>wrote:

> Yeah, like that.  Also in the sense that our everyday life becomes an
> expression of the life of Jesus Christ, with whom we are united in
> communion.  I chose the word assimilate because it expresses the idea that
> the salvation that our Lord accomplishes is something that is kneaded
> throughout the whole of a person.  Our activity not only is the work of
> faith, but is also our cooperation with the goal of Divine Grace.  Apart
> from our active engagement of God's willing and working in us, we never get
> beyond the potential or theory of what we believe Christ has done for us.
> All this is to say that Christ's cross and resurrection are intended to
> accomplish a change, a healing, in each unique person.  God will not force
> this healing change, just as He did not force Adam and Eve to remain
> faithful, so it is left to us to take responsibility for our own
> involvement
> in the salvation Christ has for us.  Like dough we need to be kneaded, but
> like those who are one day to be held accountable for themselves we must
> freely struggle to submit to the Creator's deft hands.
>
> In Christ,
> Benjamin Harju
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:12 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...
> >wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Mr. Harju.
> >
> > What exactly do you mean by "assimilate" our salvation? As in living it
> out
> > and making it a part of our everyday life?
> >
> > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, basically. If you have further concerns about synergy, I hope you
> > will
> > > continue to feel free to address them.
> > >
> > > Since salvation is not ever something anyone can earn, but is rather
> > > something we must engage and assimilate through activity (faith works),
> > > synergy is a must. In Orthodoxy pure passivity would keep a person from
> > > ever assimilating the Divine gift of salvation (like only
> half-believing,
> > if
> > > there could be such a thing). The role of synergy comes to the fore in
> > > daily life - in prayer and keeping the commandments. Here the Christian
> > is
> > > faced with his/her own sin and need for God. The Church, through 2000
> > years
> > > of experience, has learned the common depths of sin at work - the
> > passions -
> > > and is able to guide the penitent in the struggle, so that the struggle
> > is a
> > > profitable one. Awareness of the influence of the passions is a must
> for
> > > the one who wishes to know what synergy is all about in Orthodoxy,
> > because
> > > synergy is most often a struggle - by the Grace of God - against one's
> > own
> > > sin and toward the gifts that God offers. Struggle is key; it is the
> > > constant activity of faith.
> > >
> > > A good (GREAT) book that articulates the practical role of synergy in
> > > spiritual struggle is "Path to Sanity" by Dee Pennock. It outlines the
> > > influence of the major passions and directs the Christian in the proper
> > > manner of spiritual struggle. I wish I had read it as a Lutheran.
> > >
> > > The practice of synergy reveals a deep dimension to sin that I did not
> > find
> > > in Lutheranism - not even in Luther's Theology of the Cross - a
> > seriousness
> > > that Lutheranism does not know (despite how serious it desires to take
> > > sin!). I know that sounds like a slam, and I apologize for my
> bluntness,
> > > but I think it's worth taking the risk of offending someone. The
> practice
> > > of synergy reveals - in an existential sense - the depths of man's (my)
> > > sinfulness and the greatness of God's love and mercy toward us. It's
> the
> > > difference between reading about Paris and going to Paris. It is also
> how
> > > the Orthodox take up their cross daily and follow after Christ.
> > >
> > > In Christ,
> > > Benjamin Harju
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:50 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@
> ...>wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So, synergy could basically be described as God working within and
> > through
> > > > us, and us cooperating with that said work?
> > > >
> > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow... that is deep. I'm going to have to chew on that one for
> > awhile.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's especially important to remember that no one -
> > including
> > > > > > Christ! - earns salvation. Forgiveness is not forgiveness if
> anyone
> > -
> > > > > > including Christ! - pays for it; that turns forgiveness into
> > > > reimbursement
> > > > > > or paying on one's behalf.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Similarly, sacrifice need not be to anyone. A soldier jumping on
> a
> > > > grenade
> > > > > > to save his friends is not a sacrifice to anyone, it is simply
> > > > sacrificing,
> > > > > > giving what need not have been given. Christ's sacrifice is not
> to
> > any
> > > > > > person - it is kenosis to the point of death, death on a cross,
> and
> > > > descent
> > > > > > into Hades.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You won't really 'get' the essence/energies distinction. I don't
> > think
> > > > I
> > > > > > have beyond the textbook definition. The shorthand is: God is
> > present
> > > > > > Personally, Himself in His energies, His actions. Grace is in
> some
> > > > sense
> > > > > > the presence of God Himself - often said to be the Holy Spirit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Grace is something that is always present and fillest all things
> -
> > not
> > > > just
> > > > > > the predestined, the elect, those that believe. We are all imbued
> > with
> > > > > > grace enough to choose and work synergistically, or not; this
> grace
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > reserved for some only, in a special, unique way (for some, but
> not
> > > > all).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Christopher
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:46 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you, Christopher, for your help! I appreciate what you
> have
> > > > said.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) One of the first things I saw as being an area of agreement
> > > > between
> > > > > > > Lutheranism and Orthodoxy is that salvation cannot be earned. I
> > have
> > > > always
> > > > > > > appreciated that in all my talks with Orthodox Christians, that
> > there
> > > > has
> > > > > > > always been an emphasis on the fact that salvation is not
> earned.
> > It
> > > > helped
> > > > > > > me overcome some automatic safeguards that would have come up
> due
> > to
> > > > being
> > > > > > > raised Lutheran.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) I have been looking at the whole theology of God's Essence
> and
> > > > Energies.
> > > > > > > I am still confused (which I suppose is normal at this stage).
> > > > However,
> > > > > > > despite my lack of understanding, I still see what you are
> trying
> > to
> > > > get at.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > > > xcjorr@ wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would add that if you remove the idea that 1) salvation is
> > earned
> > > > and
> > > > > > > the idea that 2) grace is simply God's undeserved favor rather
> > than
> > > > God's
> > > > > > > energies and presence, then the synergy 'problem' ceases to be
> a
> > > > problem at
> > > > > > > all.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is, this is a problem created by the Lutheran schema.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Christopher
> > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Benjamin Harju <benjamin.harju@>
> > > > > > > > Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 19:02:12
> > > > > > > > To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Synergy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tim,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Synergy is based on the notion of human freedom and God's
> > respect
> > > > of that
> > > > > > > > freedom. Fallen man is bound as a captive under the tyranny
> of
> > the
> > > > devil.
> > > > > > > > He is comparable to the Israelites enslaved by the Egyptians.
> > The
> > > > power
> > > > > > > > holding fallen man in bondage is death, and its sting is sin
> > (1Co
> > > > 15:56).
> > > > > > > > So fallen man is under a tyrant, suffers the lash of sin, and
> > is
> > > > shackled
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > Hades by death. Yet in this situation he can still exercise
> his
> > > > will,
> > > > > > > > though because of his bondage to sin and death he cannot
> fully
> > or
> > > > > > > > consistently accomplish that will. And, of course, his will
> > cannot
> > > > > > > > accomplish his release and return to God!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Synergy, for the unconverted man, means assenting to the
> > release
> > > > effected
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > our Passover Lamb, Christ. Basically that's all that fallen
> man
> > can
> > > > do is
> > > > > > > > say yes or no, so that is what God requires. Faith in the
> heart
> > > > must work
> > > > > > > > through outward confession and commitment.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Synergy for the converted man means struggling against your
> own
> > > > love of
> > > > > > > sin
> > > > > > > > and conditioning toward it (passions) and to persevere by
> God's
> > > > Grace in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > commandments of God. This is the ascetic struggle, also known
> > as
> > > > daily
> > > > > > > > repentance or bearing the cross and following Christ. Again,
> > it's
> > > > about
> > > > > > > > willingly and purposefully growing closer to God. Man is
> > invited to
> > > > do
> > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > and God supplies the Grace of His Spirit so it is possible.
> God
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > passive man's autopilot, but rather the active man's
> Energizer.
> > The
> > > > Holy
> > > > > > > > Spirit perfects, He does not take over. The demons do not
> > respect
> > > > free
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > and try to trick man and lead him into bondage so that they
> can
> > > > take over
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > man.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the faith-works paradigm man believes and so he works. His
> > work
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > beneficial in his growth in God because God supplies His
> > personal
> > > > > > > Energies
> > > > > > > > (Grace) to man. The believing man is the active man. Faith
> > works.
> > > > In
> > > > > > > > Lutheranism faith is a passive recipient, and based on what
> is
> > > > received
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > works in gratitude. In Orthodoxy faith is activity, and this
> > active
> > > > faith
> > > > > > > > receives Grace, which draws man deeper into union with God
> and
> > > > furthers
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > potency of his personal spiritual warfare.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I hope this is a decent start.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In Christ,
> > > > > > > > Benjamin Harju
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 3:23 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll be honest- even though I've done my fair share of
> > research
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > dictionary looking, I still don't quite understand synergy,
> > how
> > > > it
> > > > > > > relates
> > > > > > > > > to the whole faith vs. works thing, etc.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If y'all could help me understand it better, that would be
> > > > greatly
> > > > > > > > > appreciated.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Tim
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Where would I find the information for Vespers and Orthos for the Feast?

Because of my work, I have little chance to attend church (let alone an Orthodox
Divine Liturgy!). Thus, I go to what I can.

I agree with your comments about how Trinitarian the service is. And the parts
about Mary as well. Still, I'm not saying "Oh Holy Theotokos, save us!" quite
yet. I do not plan on making any such invocations until I decide which camp I'm
going to pitch tent in. I'm not fond of cafeteria religion.

But, back to the main subject... *is guilty for going off track*

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> Glory to God!
>
> Definitely take a look at the texts from Vespers and Matins (Orthros), too,
> if all you attended was Divine Liturgy.  The Divine Liturgy is mainly
> unchangeable; the meat of the theology of the feast is to be found in the
> changeable sections of Vespers and Matins (Orthros).
>
> I remember during my first visits to an Orthodox church being shocked at
> home radically Cross and Christ focused the services were - and how
> Trinitarian.  People were making the sign of the Cross all the time, the
> priest was blessing with the Cross, the Trinity was exclaimed constantly,
> and every reference to the Mother of God was accompanied by her Son's Cross
> underlining that any focus on her is focus on her Son and our God.
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:10 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I went to Divine Liturgy for the Exaltation of the Cross last night. Very
> > informative. And to be honest, it was the most "Christ-centred"
> > "Cross-focused" sermon I've heard in a long time.
> >
> > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences between a
> > > theology of the cross and a theology of glory. Ben Harju discusses this
> > > difference here<
> > http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html
> > >and
> > > here<
> > http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
> >
> > > .
> > >
> > > Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I thought
> > it
> > > important to point out a few things.
> > >
> > > First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year: today's
> > > feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
> > > Life-Giving Cross<
> > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610
> > >(September
> > > 14), Great
> > > and Holy Friday<
> > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
> >
> > > Friday), and the Procession
> > > of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
> > > Lord<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161
> > >(August
> >
> > > 1).
> > >
> > > In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross
> > throughout
> > > the year: each and every Friday of the year. The Octoechos (Paraklitiki)
> > > texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
> > > 'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve around
> > > the Cross on Fridays. There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one for
> > > each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation
> > throughout
> > > the year. A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
> > > here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
> > > here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.
> >
> > >
> > > To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14
> > services
> > > of the Orthodox Church see
> > > here<
> > http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
> >
> > > .
> > >
> > > Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and the
> > > Mystery of Salvation
> > > here<
> > http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

P.S.- I find it interesting also that the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy
Cross was my third Liturgy I attended. God sure works in mysterious ways...

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...>
wrote:
>
> Where would I find the information for Vespers and Orthos for the Feast?
>
> Because of my work, I have little chance to attend church (let alone an
Orthodox Divine Liturgy!). Thus, I go to what I can.
>
> I agree with your comments about how Trinitarian the service is. And the parts
about Mary as well. Still, I'm not saying "Oh Holy Theotokos, save us!" quite
yet. I do not plan on making any such invocations until I decide which camp I'm
going to pitch tent in. I'm not fond of cafeteria religion.
>
> But, back to the main subject... *is guilty for going off track*
>
> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> >
> > Glory to God!
> >
> > Definitely take a look at the texts from Vespers and Matins (Orthros), too,
> > if all you attended was Divine Liturgy.  The Divine Liturgy is mainly
> > unchangeable; the meat of the theology of the feast is to be found in the
> > changeable sections of Vespers and Matins (Orthros).
> >
> > I remember during my first visits to an Orthodox church being shocked at
> > home radically Cross and Christ focused the services were - and how
> > Trinitarian.  People were making the sign of the Cross all the time, the
> > priest was blessing with the Cross, the Trinity was exclaimed constantly,
> > and every reference to the Mother of God was accompanied by her Son's Cross
> > underlining that any focus on her is focus on her Son and our God.
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:10 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I went to Divine Liturgy for the Exaltation of the Cross last night. Very
> > > informative. And to be honest, it was the most "Christ-centred"
> > > "Cross-focused" sermon I've heard in a long time.
> > >
> > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences between a
> > > > theology of the cross and a theology of glory. Ben Harju discusses this
> > > > difference here<
> > > http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html
> > > >and
> > > > here<
> > > http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
> > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I thought
> > > it
> > > > important to point out a few things.
> > > >
> > > > First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year:
today's
> > > > feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
> > > > Life-Giving Cross<
> > > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610
> > > >(September
> > > > 14), Great
> > > > and Holy Friday<
> > > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
> > >
> > > > Friday), and the Procession
> > > > of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
> > > > Lord<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161
> > > >(August
> > >
> > > > 1).
> > > >
> > > > In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross
> > > throughout
> > > > the year: each and every Friday of the year. The Octoechos (Paraklitiki)
> > > > texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
> > > > 'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve
around
> > > > the Cross on Fridays. There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one
for
> > > > each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation
> > > throughout
> > > > the year. A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
> > > > here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
> > > > here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14
> > > services
> > > > of the Orthodox Church see
> > > > here<
> > > http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
> > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and the
> > > > Mystery of Salvation
> > > > here<
> > > http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

The service texts can be found here:

  http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc

Christopher

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...>
Sender: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:48:45
To: <LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Theology of the Cross

Where would I find the information for Vespers and Orthos for the Feast?

Because of my work, I have little chance to attend church (let alone an Orthodox
Divine Liturgy!). Thus, I go to what I can.

I agree with your comments about how Trinitarian the service is. And the parts
about Mary as well. Still, I'm not saying "Oh Holy Theotokos, save us!" quite
yet. I do not plan on making any such invocations until I decide which camp I'm
going to pitch tent in. I'm not fond of cafeteria religion.

But, back to the main subject... *is guilty for going off track*

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> Glory to God!
>
> Definitely take a look at the texts from Vespers and Matins (Orthros), too,
> if all you attended was Divine Liturgy.  The Divine Liturgy is mainly
> unchangeable; the meat of the theology of the feast is to be found in the
> changeable sections of Vespers and Matins (Orthros).
>
> I remember during my first visits to an Orthodox church being shocked at
> home radically Cross and Christ focused the services were - and how
> Trinitarian.  People were making the sign of the Cross all the time, the
> priest was blessing with the Cross, the Trinity was exclaimed constantly,
> and every reference to the Mother of God was accompanied by her Son's Cross
> underlining that any focus on her is focus on her Son and our God.
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:10 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I went to Divine Liturgy for the Exaltation of the Cross last night. Very
> > informative. And to be honest, it was the most "Christ-centred"
> > "Cross-focused" sermon I've heard in a long time.
> >
> > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences between a
> > > theology of the cross and a theology of glory. Ben Harju discusses this
> > > difference here<
> > http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html
> > >and
> > > here<
> > http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
> >
> > > .
> > >
> > > Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I thought
> > it
> > > important to point out a few things.
> > >
> > > First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year: today's
> > > feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
> > > Life-Giving Cross<
> > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610
> > >(September
> > > 14), Great
> > > and Holy Friday<
> > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
> >
> > > Friday), and the Procession
> > > of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
> > > Lord<http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161
> > >(August
> >
> > > 1).
> > >
> > > In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross
> > throughout
> > > the year: each and every Friday of the year. The Octoechos (Paraklitiki)
> > > texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
> > > 'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve around
> > > the Cross on Fridays. There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one for
> > > each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation
> > throughout
> > > the year. A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
> > > here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
> > > here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.
> >
> > >
> > > To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14
> > services
> > > of the Orthodox Church see
> > > here<
> > http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
> >
> > > .
> > >
> > > Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and the
> > > Mystery of Salvation
> > > here<
> > http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You can also find a more limited selection of hymns for the feast here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hVIXAAAAYAAJ&dq=hapgood%20service%20book&pg=PA1\
67#v=onepage&q&f=false

and the a general service to the Cross here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VgfZAAAAMAAJ&dq=menaion&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=f\
alse

Christopher



On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 7:04 PM, <xcjorr@...> wrote:

> The service texts can be found here:
>
>
> http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc
>
> Christopher
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> ------------------------------
> *From: * "mrthatoneguy92" <timsteele2@...>
> *Sender: * LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> *Date: *Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:48:45 -0000
> *To: *<LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com>
> *ReplyTo: * LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject: *[LutheransLookingEast] Re: Theology of the Cross
>
>
>
> Where would I find the information for Vespers and Orthos for the Feast?
>
> Because of my work, I have little chance to attend church (let alone an
> Orthodox Divine Liturgy!). Thus, I go to what I can.
>
> I agree with your comments about how Trinitarian the service is. And the
> parts about Mary as well. Still, I'm not saying "Oh Holy Theotokos, save
> us!" quite yet. I do not plan on making any such invocations until I decide
> which camp I'm going to pitch tent in. I'm not fond of cafeteria religion.
>
> But, back to the main subject... *is guilty for going off track*
>
> --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
> >
> > Glory to God!
> >
> > Definitely take a look at the texts from Vespers and Matins (Orthros),
> too,
> > if all you attended was Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is mainly
> > unchangeable; the meat of the theology of the feast is to be found in the
> > changeable sections of Vespers and Matins (Orthros).
> >
> > I remember during my first visits to an Orthodox church being shocked at
> > home radically Cross and Christ focused the services were - and how
> > Trinitarian. People were making the sign of the Cross all the time, the
> > priest was blessing with the Cross, the Trinity was exclaimed constantly,
> > and every reference to the Mother of God was accompanied by her Son's
> Cross
> > underlining that any focus on her is focus on her Son and our God.
> >
> > Christopher
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 3:10 PM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I went to Divine Liturgy for the Exaltation of the Cross last night.
> Very
> > > informative. And to be honest, it was the most "Christ-centred"
> > > "Cross-focused" sermon I've heard in a long time.
> > >
> > > --- In
LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
> <LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > Christopher Orr <xcjorr@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Lutheranism I grew up in often referred to the differences
> between a
> > > > theology of the cross and a theology of glory. Ben Harju discusses
> this
> > > > difference here<
> > >
> http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/06/theologians-of-cross-glory-and.html
> > > >and
> > > > here<
> > >
> http://paredwka.blogspot.com/2010/08/accused-again-theology-of-glory.html>
> > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Given that today is the Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, I
> thought
> > > it
> > > > important to point out a few things.
> > > >
> > > > First, there are 3 major feasts of the Cross throughout the year:
> today's
> > > > feast of the Universal Exaltation and Elevation of the Precious and
> > > > Life-Giving Cross<
> > > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102610
> > > >(September
> > > > 14), Great
> > > > and Holy Friday<
> > > http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=25>(Good
> > >
> > > > Friday), and the Procession
> > > > of the Venerable Wood of the Life-Creating Cross of the
> > > > Lord<
> http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=102161
> > > >(August
> > >
> > > > 1).
> > > >
> > > > In addition, there are approximately 56 mini-feasts of the Cross
> > > throughout
> > > > the year: each and every Friday of the year. The Octoechos
> (Paraklitiki)
> > > > texts written by St. John of Damascus that form a major part of the
> > > > 'regular' moveable portions of the daily cycle of services revolve
> around
> > > > the Cross on Fridays. There are eight sets of texts for Fridays - one
> for
> > > > each of the eight 'tones', melodies or modes used in alternation
> > > throughout
> > > > the year. A selection of weekly hymns for the Cross can be found
> > > > here<http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins.htm>and
> > > > here <http://anastasis.org.uk/friday_matins1.htm>.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > To read at least some of the Cross texts used in the September 14
> > > services
> > > > of the Orthodox Church see
> > > > here<
> > >
> http://www.oca.org/PDF/liturgicaltexts/09.September/2010-0914-texts.doc>
> > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Fr. Stephen Freeman also has a very good reflection on the Cross and
> the
> > > > Mystery of Salvation
> > > > here<
> > > http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/the-cross-of-christ-2/>
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Saturday, February 12, 2011
Taking our cue from Fr. Georges Florovsky, the eminent 20th century Orthodox
theologian who wrote with passion on this topic, we will examine the
doctrine of atonement in some of the same authorities upon which Fr.
Florovsky relied: the New Testament, St. Irenaeus of Lyon, St. Athanasius of
Alexandria, St. Gregory the Theologian, and others. We will conclude with an
analysis of Fr. Florovsky's own writings on atonement, followed by a panel
discussion.

This symposium is co-sponsored by the Fr. Georges Florovsky Orthodox
Christian Theological Society at Princeton University and the School of
Christian Vocation and Mission at Princeton Theological Seminary.

Speakers

   Once a student of Fr. Georges Florovsky, Fr. George
Dragas<http://www.hchc.edu/holycross/academics/faculty/dragas.html>is
the Professor of Patrology/Patristics at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox
School
of Theology. Fr. George's many publications include several on the theology
and writings of St. Athanasius the Great, about whom he will be speaking at
the symposium.

Fr. John Behr <http://www.svots.edu/team/very-rev-john-behr> is the Dean of
St Vladimir's Seminary and Professor of Patristics, as well as the
Distinguished Lecturer in Patristics at Fordham University. Fr. John's many
publications include two books on St. Irenaeus of Lyon, about whom he will
be speaking at the symposium.

Dr. Alexis Torrance is Residential Fellow at the Notre Dame Institute for
Advanced Study. His publications include articles on ascetic fathers in the
Greek East, about whom he will be speaking at the symposium.

Fr. John McGuckin <http://www.utsnyc.edu//Page.aspx?pid=300> is Professor in
Late Antique and Byzantine Christian History at Union Theological Seminary,
as well as a Professor of Byzantine Christian Studies at Columbia
University. One of Fr. John's twenty books is an intellectual biography of
St. Gregory the Theologian, about whom he will be speaking at the symposium.

Dr. George Parsenios
<http://www3.ptsem.edu/Content.aspx?id=1951&menu_id=72>is Associate
Professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary.
He is the author of two monographs on the Gospel according to St. John. Dr.
Parsenios will discuss the doctrine of atonement in the New Testament.

Matthew Baker is a Ph.D. student at Fordham University. His research and
recent articles have focused on the thought of Fr. Florovsky, about whom he
will be speaking at the symposium.


Details

The symposium will be held on the campus of Princeton Theological Seminary
in Princeton, NJ. All are welcome. More information about
registration<http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eflorov/register.html>,
the schedule <http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eflorov/schedule.html> of lectures,
lodging <http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eflorov/lodging.html>, and other topics
is available near the top left of this page under "Symposium Quicklinks."
Please e-mail us <florov@...> with questions.

Schedule

This is a tentative schedule. It may be modified in the coming weeks. In
particular, some content may be added to Friday night.

  Saturday, February 12

8:30 - 9:00 Registration & Continental Breakfast
9:00 - 9:20 Morning Prayer
9:20 - 9:30 Welcome & Introduction

*Part I: The First & Second Centuries*

9:30 - 10:30 Atonement in the New Testament (Dr. George Parsenios)
10:30 - 10:45 Break
10:45 - 11:45 Atonement in St. Irenaeus (Fr. John Behr)
11:45 - 1:00 Lunch Break (Participants may choose to eat at the seminary's
cafeteria or a nearby eatery.)

*Part II: The Fourth Century*

1:00 - 2:00 Atonement in St. Athanasius (Fr. George Dragas)
2:00 - 2:10 Break
2:10 - 3:10 Atonement in St. Gregory the Theologian (Fr. John McGuckin)
3:10 - 3:15 Short Break

*Part III: The Fifth Century & Beyond*

3:15 - 3:45 Atonement in the Ascetic Fathers (Dr. Alexis Torrance)
3:45 - 4:15 Atonement in Fr. Georges Florovsky (Matthew Baker)
4:15 - 4:20 Short Break
4:20 - 5:00 Panel Discussion


The featured speakers in Parts I & II will each have one hour to teach as
they see fit. Most, possibly all, will lecture but will also leave some time
at the end of their hour for questions and answers. The speakers in Part III
will answer questions as part of the panel discussion. All events on
Saturday will take place in the Erdman Center (Princeton Theological
Seminary).

http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2010/09/symposium-in-honor-of-florovsky-on-wood.h\
tml

http://www.princeton.edu/~florov/patristic_symposium.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This sounds absolutely wonderful! I'll have to see if I can make it. Chances are
99% I cannot (I might have to attend "online"), but I'm hoping for that 1%
chance.

Anybody else thinking about going?

--- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
>
> Saturday, February 12, 2011
> Taking our cue from Fr. Georges Florovsky, the eminent 20th century Orthodox
> theologian who wrote with passion on this topic, we will examine the
> doctrine of atonement in some of the same authorities upon which Fr.
> Florovsky relied: the New Testament, St. Irenaeus of Lyon, St. Athanasius of
> Alexandria, St. Gregory the Theologian, and others. We will conclude with an
> analysis of Fr. Florovsky's own writings on atonement, followed by a panel
> discussion.
>
> This symposium is co-sponsored by the Fr. Georges Florovsky Orthodox
> Christian Theological Society at Princeton University and the School of
> Christian Vocation and Mission at Princeton Theological Seminary.
>
> Speakers
>
>   Once a student of Fr. Georges Florovsky, Fr. George
> Dragas<http://www.hchc.edu/holycross/academics/faculty/dragas.html>is
> the Professor of Patrology/Patristics at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox
> School
> of Theology. Fr. George's many publications include several on the theology
> and writings of St. Athanasius the Great, about whom he will be speaking at
> the symposium.
>
> Fr. John Behr <http://www.svots.edu/team/very-rev-john-behr> is the Dean of
> St Vladimir's Seminary and Professor of Patristics, as well as the
> Distinguished Lecturer in Patristics at Fordham University. Fr. John's many
> publications include two books on St. Irenaeus of Lyon, about whom he will
> be speaking at the symposium.
>
> Dr. Alexis Torrance is Residential Fellow at the Notre Dame Institute for
> Advanced Study. His publications include articles on ascetic fathers in the
> Greek East, about whom he will be speaking at the symposium.
>
> Fr. John McGuckin <http://www.utsnyc.edu//Page.aspx?pid=300> is Professor in
> Late Antique and Byzantine Christian History at Union Theological Seminary,
> as well as a Professor of Byzantine Christian Studies at Columbia
> University. One of Fr. John's twenty books is an intellectual biography of
> St. Gregory the Theologian, about whom he will be speaking at the symposium.
>
> Dr. George Parsenios
> <http://www3.ptsem.edu/Content.aspx?id=1951&menu_id=72>is Associate
> Professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary.
> He is the author of two monographs on the Gospel according to St. John. Dr.
> Parsenios will discuss the doctrine of atonement in the New Testament.
>
> Matthew Baker is a Ph.D. student at Fordham University. His research and
> recent articles have focused on the thought of Fr. Florovsky, about whom he
> will be speaking at the symposium.
>
>
> Details
>
> The symposium will be held on the campus of Princeton Theological Seminary
> in Princeton, NJ. All are welcome. More information about
> registration<http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eflorov/register.html>,
> the schedule <http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eflorov/schedule.html> of lectures,
> lodging <http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eflorov/lodging.html>, and other topics
> is available near the top left of this page under "Symposium Quicklinks."
> Please e-mail us <florov@...> with questions.
>
> Schedule
>
> This is a tentative schedule. It may be modified in the coming weeks. In
> particular, some content may be added to Friday night.
>
>  Saturday, February 12
>
> 8:30 - 9:00 Registration & Continental Breakfast
> 9:00 - 9:20 Morning Prayer
> 9:20 - 9:30 Welcome & Introduction
>
> *Part I: The First & Second Centuries*
>
> 9:30 - 10:30 Atonement in the New Testament (Dr. George Parsenios)
> 10:30 - 10:45 Break
> 10:45 - 11:45 Atonement in St. Irenaeus (Fr. John Behr)
> 11:45 - 1:00 Lunch Break (Participants may choose to eat at the seminary's
> cafeteria or a nearby eatery.)
>
> *Part II: The Fourth Century*
>
> 1:00 - 2:00 Atonement in St. Athanasius (Fr. George Dragas)
> 2:00 - 2:10 Break
> 2:10 - 3:10 Atonement in St. Gregory the Theologian (Fr. John McGuckin)
> 3:10 - 3:15 Short Break
>
> *Part III: The Fifth Century & Beyond*
>
> 3:15 - 3:45 Atonement in the Ascetic Fathers (Dr. Alexis Torrance)
> 3:45 - 4:15 Atonement in Fr. Georges Florovsky (Matthew Baker)
> 4:15 - 4:20 Short Break
> 4:20 - 5:00 Panel Discussion
>
>
> The featured speakers in Parts I & II will each have one hour to teach as
> they see fit. Most, possibly all, will lecture but will also leave some time
> at the end of their hour for questions and answers. The speakers in Part III
> will answer questions as part of the panel discussion. All events on
> Saturday will take place in the Erdman Center (Princeton Theological
> Seminary).
>
>
http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2010/09/symposium-in-honor-of-florovsky-on-wood.h\
tml
>
> http://www.princeton.edu/~florov/patristic_symposium.html
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I thought you might be interested in the recently released census of
Orthodox Christians in the United States, if you hadn't seen it already.

"A census of all Orthodox congregations in the United
States"<http://orthodoxhistory.org/2010/10/2010-census-of-orthodox-christian-chu\
rches-in-the-usa/>
>
> From
OrthodoxHistory.org<http://orthodoxhistory.org/2010/10/2010-census-of-orthodox-c\
hristian-churches-in-the-usa/>
> :
>
> Over the past decade,... sociologist Alexei Krindatch, has developed a
> reputation for his remarkable studies of Orthodox Christianity in America.
> The full collection of his work is housed at www.orthodoxreality.org.
>
> Today, Alexei has released the results of his latest and most ambitious
> project yet — a census of all Orthodox congregations in the United
States<http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/2010-USOrthodox-Census.pdf>.
> The most notable aspect of this census is the fact that Alexei didn’t just
> go to the administrations of each jurisdiction and ask for their reported
> numbers. He contacted every single parish in America, asking two key
> questions:
>
>    - Approximately how many individual persons in total are associated in
>    any way with the life of your parish: counting adults and children, regular
>    and occasional attendees, paid stewards and persons who do not contribute
>    financially?
>
>    - Approximately how many persons — including adults and children —
>    attend Liturgy in your parish on a typical Sunday?
>
>  Counting all “Orthodox” churches — that is, including the
> non-Chalcedonians as well as HOCNA (which isn’t in communion with mainstream
> Orthodoxy) — Alexei found that 1,043,600 people were associated with
> American Orthodox parishes. Of those, about 280,300 (27%) attend Liturgy on
> a typical Sunday.
>
> Once again, here’s a
link<http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/2010-USOrthodox-Census.pdf>to the
2010 Census [of all Orthodox congregations in the United States], and
> here’s a link <http://www.orthodoxreality.org/> to Alexei Krindatch’s
> website.
>
>
>
http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2010/10/census-of-all-orthodox-congregations-in.h\
tml
>

Christopher


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I really am having a tough time understanding what exactly the Orthodox
perspective on God's Wrath is.

It is clear from Scripture that God possesses wrath, anger, etc. How do the
Orthodox treat this subject, and all it's implications (divine judgment, etc)?

Thanks,

Tim

I would take a look at these posts:


    -
   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/07/wrath-and-justification.html

    -
    http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/wrath-of-god-continued.html

    -
   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/vicarious-yes-satisfaction-huh\
.html

    - http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/10/on-anger-of-god.html


Christopher


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:16 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:

>
>
> I really am having a tough time understanding what exactly the Orthodox
> perspective on God's Wrath is.
>
> It is clear from Scripture that God possesses wrath, anger, etc. How do the
> Orthodox treat this subject, and all it's implications (divine judgment,
> etc)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we've also discussed this here in the somewhat recent past.  You may
want to do a search of the Message Archives of the group.

Christopher


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

> I would take a look at these posts:
>
>
>    -
>   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/07/wrath-and-justification.html
>
>    -
>   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/wrath-of-god-continued.html
>
>    -
>   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/vicarious-yes-satisfaction-huh\
.html
>
>    -
>    http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/10/on-anger-of-god.html
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:16 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I really am having a tough time understanding what exactly the Orthodox
>> perspective on God's Wrath is.
>>
>> It is clear from Scripture that God possesses wrath, anger, etc. How do
>> the Orthodox treat this subject, and all it's implications (divine judgment,
>> etc)?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is another helpful post:

http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/against-western-concept-of-ato\
nement.html

I think it is also helpful to remember that patristic exegesis of Scripture
saw all of Scripture as working at multiple levels at once: literal,
typological, allegorical, etc.  Each was appropriate for different people at
different stages along the Way.  One will often find Fathers noting the
impossibility of a literal reading as a sign that what is really being
discussed is typological, etc.  Of course, that isn't to say the whole text
of Scripture is ahistorical and only allegorical.

As to how this applies to understanding God's anger or wrath, I think St.
Cassian provides a very good hermeneutical lens.

Christopher


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:

> I would take a look at these posts:
>
>
>    -
>   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/07/wrath-and-justification.html
>
>    -
>   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/wrath-of-god-continued.html
>
>    -
>   
http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/09/vicarious-yes-satisfaction-huh\
.html
>
>    -
>    http://orthodoxyforlutherans.blogspot.com/2010/10/on-anger-of-god.html
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:16 AM, mrthatoneguy92 <timsteele2@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I really am having a tough time understanding what exactly the Orthodox
>> perspective on God's Wrath is.
>>
>> It is clear from Scripture that God possesses wrath, anger, etc. How do
>> the Orthodox treat this subject, and all it's implications (divine judgment,
>> etc)?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]