Hey John,

Yes, please let us know what you think... the good the bad and the ugly:).

I think at scale sound pressures these may be no better or worse than most any
small speakers/enclosures. Packing will likely help. Try this when you're
expirimenting,
turn it down:)... that will likely help too.

Of course if you could inhale your soundtracks into an audio editor, and plug
the editor output into the 2.1 system, you could compensate for almost any
anomolies. The
amps are likely fine... a watt is a watt... so any bad sound is most likely in
the enclosures, and possibly in the speakers themselves. I can make almost any
speaker system
sound flat, although sometimes it takes doing some fairly radical EQ to the
original audio file:).

But packing is easier (and easier on the soundtrack:)... and can only help.

Keep us posted,
jim

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Fri 23/10/09  3:28 PM , "John" jc_oop@... sent:
> Well I bought two of the HB 2.1
>
> Not too impressed, but maybe with some help they will be fine.  I have only
> played music through them and they are not impressive.  I will try to get a
> soundtrack going through them this weekend.
> John

Hey all,

Along these same lines (except for the price:).... I was in the Apple store
today and saw JBL's entries into i-Pod docks. They have 2 new ones:
JBL On Stage 400P Loudspeaker Dock and JBL On Stage 200P Loudspeaker Dock
http://tinyurl.com/cur47c
http://tinyurl.com/yf3t69p

Don't let those prices scare you! Let these prices scare you:)... they were
$149.95, and $119.95 at the Apple store. Not cheap, but very good sounding (flat
and clean).
What is of particular note is that each system uses two pair (four total) of
1.5", long throw HB type speakers. This is something to consider if you want to
scratch build
your own speakers...

Look closely at the photos on those two pages and you can see the concave
aluminum cones and foam surrounds:).

In a somewhat related matter, my broadcast engineer buddy just emailed and said
the prototype scale ampifier is built and ready for testing. I'll be picking it
up in the
next couple of days. I'll let you know all the details when I get my ears on it.
It was engineered to my specifications (my dream amp for scale apps:). More to
follow...
jim

PS There's also a JBL On Stage Micro Portable Loudspeaker for iPod (two speakers
total), but I didn't see or hear it:
http://tinyurl.com/yfkdqdx

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Fri 23/10/09  3:28 PM , "John" jc_oop@... sent:
> Well I bought two of the HB 2.1
>
> Not too impressed, but maybe with some help they will be fine.  I have only
> played music through them and they are not impressive.  I will try to get a
> soundtrack going through them this weekend.
> John

Hey Jon,

Guess it worked:)...
jim

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Mon 26/10/09  9:09 AM , "Jon Miller" atsf@... sent:
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------

Jim,
      It seems Yahoo doesn't redirect messages until I send a message to the
group using the new address. At the same time they change from traditional to
new format forcing me to change back again as this isn't included in the group
changes. FUN!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Jon,

If there is anything we can do at this end to help let us know... you've been a
good member of this group (and many groups).

yahoo! isn't maybe the best, but for now its all we've got... and for the most
part its lets us help each other:).
jim

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Mon 26/10/09 11:34 AM , "Jon Miller" atsf@... sent:
> Jim,
> It seems Yahoo doesn't redirect messages until I send a message to the
> group using the new address. At the same time they change from traditional
> to new format forcing me to change back again as this isn't included in the
> group changes. FUN!
> Jon Miller
> AT&SF
> For me time has stopped in 1941
> Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
> NMRA Life member #2623
> Member SFRH&MS
>

Hey all,

Ok, I spoke with Bill Bordeau who has been working on a dedicated layout sound
amplifier for us. When I say dedicated I mean specifically designed for our use
in model railroad layouts. I've said it a zillion times; a watt is a watt... and
that's still true.

But all watts are not created equal:). For example, some watts are cleaner and
quieter than others. While at scale volume levels this is less critical, there's
no noise like no noise:). And in a layout with sound an a number of scenes
amplifier hiss can actually mask and work against you at scale sound pressures.

The new design is also REALLY low distortin, and spec's in at 11w/per channel
into 8 ohm loads. This is over kill in many scale situations, but there's a lot
to be said for having enough power when you need it:). And having a liitle bit
too much never hurts, just run the amp quieter and cooler.

Speaking of cooler, this is a 'class D' amplifier (part of original the spec:).
This is 'cool' for several reasons. First, it runs cool (no heat sink
necessary). Second, it requires a smaller power supply.

Also, class D is efficient in that it only pulls power when it sees a signal...
turn the player off and it draws essentially no power. This is kind of green,
and especially handy in garden battery powered situations, or in larger riding
scale scenes which are sometimes 'solar charged' battery powered:).

Ok, enough with the nuts & bolts spec's.... here are the important layout sound
spec's:). I was able to lay out the applications, but really only asked Bill for
one thing... that it be cheap:). Bill understands cheap as a spec:).

Its a model railroader thing:).

Of course, a smaller component count in the first place keeps the price down no
matter how many you build:). Building a circuit using the fewest possible
components is kind of a hobby with Bill (besides model railroading:).

Bill says the prototype is currently about the size of a deck of cards... and
that we can cut that down by TWO THIRDS:). Right now the 'prototype' is pretty
much an off the shelf circuit offered by the chip maker.

I don't know much more about the details... I haven't seen (or heard:) it yet. I
just got the news today. Not sure exactly sure what's next, but I'm going to
pick it up Wednesday. I guess Bill wants me to fiddle around with it a bit (he
mentioned dip switches?:)... and then we'll gut it:)!

Its just another little amp. But its designed and engineered to serve several
model railroad layout duties. It will drive a pair of speakers (or two mono
speakers:), or drive a sub, or run audio driven LED lighting FX. Its just enough
for outdoors, and more than enough for indoors.

Maybe I'm more excited about this than anybody else... its just an amp:).
jim

Dear Jim,



No, it's not just you... :-)



I have a pair of Exciters and a pair of 2" HBs that would both love a
clean amp to pair/play with...

(Car amps are OK, but a "Layout Sound Throwpack" Poweramp, now <that's>
Cool!)



Can't wait to see the "Production Version"...



Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr



"...just finished fabricating the 3rd of 3 modules for a clinic this
weekend,

Somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush..."









http://twitter.com/FairlightAU
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fairlight/81364708295
http://www.fairlightusers.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Professor,

I can't wait to see the prototype:). The production version may be a ways off.
We have to decide what we can eliminate, and then maybe we will be able to come
up
with a board design. But it may be up to others. I've explained to Bill my
intenton to work with some of the mfg.'s to produce these amps (and a flat,
small, cheap
speaker system). So anyway, its not just up to me:)...

Speaking of speakers:). The idea is to design a single amp that can drive a pair
of satellites, or can drive a sub (i.e., you would need two amps for a 2.1
system). The
concept is for a single amp design that can serve both duties. Turns out that a
class D amp cannt be made to work in bridged mode (mono) to drive a single sub
speaker. Its just in the nature of the class D circuit (or at least in the
nature of the chip we're using).

So I am looking at an design for a sub that uses four close coupled speakers:).
This way two speakers can be hung on each channel of the amp (pseudo bridged
mode:). I'm calling it a 'quad close coupled sub'. Theory says this should
work... but I haven't built one, yet. My intention is to use a straightforward
infinite baffle
enclosure... no porting. We don't need (or want!) this sub to be loud, just flat
and transparent in a 'local area' (a single scene). I'll make the first couple
of boxes out of
wood:).

Anyway, the amp is the next step in a dedicated layout sound system. I already
have a working design for the staellites, and now we have an amp. I'll keep the
group
posted on the progress with the sub.

We've seen the little cheap amplified speakers systems come and go, and so far
none of them has been small enough, or flat enough (they're always a bunch of
compromises to the sound... to make them cheap:). I don't thik we should have to
invest in bad sound (remember the sound?:). There's no way this system will be
as
cheap as the ones we've been seeing, but at least we'll have an alternative that
sounds good. And one that is small enough to be R-T-R (i.e., easily hidden in
the
layout).

There will always be a cheaper way to go, and always be folks who will go that
route. But what I am striving for is an alternative that sounds good... a system
that will
not fight the person who wishes to build a convincing scale model aural image.
For the record, I can now hand build 'one off' systems for my work. What I am
aiming
for:) is a system that one doesn't have to build from scratch, a system for
other model railroaders... like those souls gathered here:).

The component parts of a good sounding dedicated system will be of value to the
manufacturers... I'm hoping enough of them will get on board (in a kind of
voluntary
industry standard), to justify making enough of these systems to get the price
down. I honestly believe that 'flooding the market' with a system that actually
sounds
good will encourage mod=re model railroaders to give building their own scale
models (remember the sound?:)... a go.
jim

PS What are the mods you are working on?!?


The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Tue 27/10/09  5:21 AM , "John Dimitrievich" johnd@... sent:
> Dear Jim,
>
>
>
> No, it's not just you... :-)
>
>
>
> I have a pair of Exciters and a pair of 2" HBs that would both love a
> clean amp to pair/play with...
>
> (Car amps are OK, but a "Layout Sound Throwpack" Poweramp, now
> Cool!)
>
>
>
> Can't wait to see the "Production Version"...
>
>
>
> Happy Modelling,
>
> Aim to Improve,
>
> Prof Klyzlr
>
>
>
> "...just finished fabricating the 3rd of 3 modules for a clinic this
> weekend,
>
> Somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush..."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://twitter.com/FairlightAU
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fairlight/81364708295
> http://www.fairlightusers.com/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/
>  Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
>  To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/join(Yahoo! ID required)
>
>  To change settings via email:
> LayoutSound-digest@yahoogroups.com LayoutSound-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> LayoutSound-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Dear Professor,

I finally noticed:)!

Thank you for changing the banner at the top of the group's home page. I just
think 'close your eyes and look around' says it all. I promised to give Hans
Nouwens full credit for his wonderful way of stating it (the ressence of layout
sound) so beautifully!

Hans was looking for a way to sum up layout sound for an article he is working
on (see below)... I do believe he nailed it.

At some point I do want to change it back to the advice we have been giving all
along though! There's nothing to 'see' when you close your eyes... until you
first trust your ears, and give it a go:)!!!!

Thanks Professor,
jim

=========
On Sun 04/10/09 4:38 PM , "Hans Nouwens" Hans.Nouwens@... sent:
> Jim,
<snip>

> Doe je ogen dicht en kijk om je heen!
> Freely translated as: close your eyes and look around!
>
> I guess this somehow captures the layout sound movement :-)
>
> Veel plezier!
> Hans Nouwens.

OK kids,

The Logitech's arrived this afternoon. I haven't had a chance to fire them up
yet. But I have to say that they are quite impresively heavy. When you stop
laughing, think about it, this is an indication of the components inside.

I often ignore the published mag.'s spec's on a small speaker (because they
routinely lie or misrepresent them)... but I always look at the shipping weight.
They kind of have to be honest about that:).

A heavier speaker is usually able to handle more power gracefully. Not always,
but usually:).

I have to say I actually expect these to sound pretty good... we'll see. I will
fire them up later and get back.
jim

Dear Jim,

Just make sure you remove that lead slug from the enclosure before you test
them,
(I know at least 1 Pro Audio Console manufacturer that has previously put a
steel slug in the console chassis because "heavier felt more Pro"...)

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to get the lead out...
(and replace it with a dirty great big driver magnet... ;-)
Prof Klyzlr

PS Love the idea of the close-coupled-sub,
just have to make sure the 2 X 2 drivers would be in phase when connected to the
2 channels of the power-amp...



--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "whitby333" <enginears@...> wrote:
>
> OK kids,
>
> The Logitech's arrived this afternoon. I haven't had a chance to fire them up
yet. But I have to say that they are quite impresively heavy. When you stop
laughing, think about it, this is an indication of the components inside.
>
> I often ignore the published mag.'s spec's on a small speaker (because they
routinely lie or misrepresent them)... but I always look at the shipping weight.
They kind of have to be honest about that:).
>
> A heavier speaker is usually able to handle more power gracefully. Not always,
but usually:).
>
> I have to say I actually expect these to sound pretty good... we'll see. I
will fire them up later and get back.
> jim
>

Dear Professor,

Well, I tried a few pieces of scale sound on the Logitechs, and except for
basically no bass what-so-ever (what did we expect from 2" cones?:), they
actually sound
really good... very flat sounding. I think I'll pack them anyway:).

I haven't looked inside, but I suspect the weight is from the internal power
supply (the LH speaker plugs into the wall)... the other one, the one without a
transformer,
is much lighter:).

Hey, for the size and price, they are as clean and flat sounding as anything
I've ever heard. They are certainly capable of being louder than would ever be
appropriate
in any scale. I don't want to go overboard, but if someone was considering
stocking up on cheap amplified audio systems ($10)... these are the ones. The
only
drawback is the lack of any real bottom end (if your scene needs bass response
you should consider something beefier, or a 2.1.

Just because I am recommending them:)
http://www.cyberguys.com/product-details/?productid=16318

HTH,
jim

PS I'm genuinely stoked about the quad close coupled aproach for a micro-sub.
For one thing, I don't think I've ever heard of it before:). You have my word,
when the
time comes, I'll do my best to keep an eye on the phasing:). Right now I'm
hoping I can load each channel with 16 ohms (series)...

BTW I really like the term, '2x2 drivers' (so I'm stealing it:)!

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Tue 27/10/09  4:50 PM , "loggingloco1" johnd@... sent:
> Dear Jim,
>
> Just make sure you remove that lead slug from the enclosure before you test
> them,(I know at least 1 Pro Audio Console manufacturer that has previously put
a
> steel slug in the console chassis because "heavier felt more Pro"...)
> Happy Modelling,
> Aiming to get the lead out...
> (and replace it with a dirty great big driver magnet... ;-)
> Prof Klyzlr
>
> PS Love the idea of the close-coupled-sub,
> just have to make sure the 2 X 2 drivers would be in phase when connected
> to the 2 channels of the power-amp...

Hey all,

Ok, have had a chance to play some bigger (louder, bassier) sound through these
things and I have to say... they ARE boomy. I haven't opened them up to see if
they are already packed... but my ears say they are not:).

Its the resonance of the plastic encloure that I think I hear. When I tap in the
enclosures with a fingernail I hear the same resonance that I EQ out:)! I posted
a screenshot of the EQ I needed to apply to eliminate the enclosure resonance,
in the 'Logitech S120's' folder, in the files section.

You'll see that I had to make a radical 12db two octave wide cut centered at
331hz. Its easy enough to do... but I had to do it for everything I auditioned.
Too bad.

Otherwise, I really like these... except for that boominess they sound good. At
some point I am going to open these puppies up and see what I can do about
acoustically dampening and deadening the plastic. There's no electronics like NO
electronics (and I know how much most of you want to avoid the dreaded audo
editor!:).

These things are worth a little tweaking. Its actually easier form to do it in
the audio editor... but acoustic tweaking is easy too. I'll try 'self sticking'
some thick rubber tape on a couple of spots inside, and then packing all open
interior space with quilt batting or polyfill (whichever I find first:).

I just want to eliminate the hollow plastic. This WILL fairly seriously limit
the little system's maximam loudness... but it will still be capable of being
much louder than any scale application (any scale:).

I happily trade unnecessary volume for good flat sound, every time:). Will
report back when I get a minute:).
jim

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "whitby333" <enginears@...> wrote:
>
> OK kids,
>
> The Logitech's arrived this afternoon. I haven't had a chance to fire them up
yet. But I have to say that they are quite impresively heavy. When you stop
laughing, think about it, this is an indication of the components inside.
>
> I often ignore the published mag.'s spec's on a small speaker (because they
routinely lie or misrepresent them)... but I always look at the shipping weight.
They kind of have to be honest about that:).
>
> A heavier speaker is usually able to handle more power gracefully. Not always,
but usually:).
>
> I have to say I actually expect these to sound pretty good... we'll see. I
will fire them up later and get back.
> jim
>

Hey all,

Well, the little enclosures are glued... no screws, no mechanical conections.
Short of risking destroying them to open them...

I prefer to use the EQ preset I already have on anything I might decide to play
through them. These really are a well built and hefty little system (enclosure
anomolies aside:). I might find deserving good homes for these systems:)...

So anyway I don't want to mess them up. I thought it would be a good example of
how to hot rod a cheap pair, to share with the group, but...

I'm sure I could have done a good job treating the problem acoustically (I've
done it before)... but EQ is so easy (and less risky:).

If you can use EQ, I still like this little system. You probably won't ever find
a better pair in the $10.00 price range.
Hope this helps,
jim

Jim & all,

published today on dealextreme:

Ocean-in-Room Relaxing Ocean Projector Speaker Pot
Price: $27.00  free shipping

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.29747

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63vdMXOqBhs

- Innovative light fixture projects a watery ocean light around your room
- Transforming your environment into a relaxing tropical lagoon
- Base can adjust the direction from 0 to 30 degree
- Auti shutdown after 1 hour, can be used to relax yourself before sleeping
- With speaker function, volume adjustable, 3.5mm audio plug
- LED light on the top that can project rays of light
- It is waterproof and can be used in the bathroom
- Powered by 4*AA batteries (not include)
- Package include: 1* Ocean Projector; 1* 3.5mm audio cable
** including spelling error on packaging :-)

groetjes,
Hans Nouwens.


whitby333 wrote:
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> Funny story. I just got a phone call from Joe Burns whom I've know for
> years... turns out that Joe is James' friend who wanted to know about
> water FX:).
>
> As it turns out, the model is actually 4 feet long and will be on
> display on shelves in a room (no layout:), along with three Disney
> posters about the 2000 Leagues Under the Sea movie and attractions.
>
> He has no problem with a $200 FX projector, and he simply wants the
> model to appear to be completely underwater. After I explained to him
> that light comes down from the surface (and that it is the surface
> ripples that create the underwater effect:), he realized that he could
> simply mount the theatrical projector on the ceiling and focus down at
> the model.
>
> He promises to send me photo of the finished display... if he actually
> buys the model, and the projector:)...
>
> Another satisfied layout sound group customer,
> jim
>
>

Hey Hans,

That is interesting... I almost nodded off watching the tube:). It wasn't
exactly the effect that I 'think' most of us would model, but it would be fun to
buy one just to
dissect it (see how it works:). Most models would require a bit more action (a
faster movement), and possibly a direction/flow. Perhaps that one could be
speeded up
without too much trouble? Its fairly hypnotic now (that's the idea:).

The price is right:). I wonder if it could be scaled down? You know, if it could
be 'focused' at a shorter distance (a scale distance:)? If it can project at a
shorter
distance... it should scale down the size of the effect.

Have you gotten one of these (or did you just stumble into it:)? I think its (at
the least!) a terrific example of an LED FX projector. In mineature, this
approach would be
stunning as a rear projection (from below) onto a clear or water surface. I made
a similar prototype, it used two rotating copper gobos (DC motors, I could
control the
speed of each disc:), and incandescent lamps (that's why I used copper foil
sheet, the heat:). There was no lens to adjust focal length... instead, I
adjusted the size of
the gobo pattern... at the focal length I was using:).

In a future version I'l have one fixed gobo, and just rotate the other one:). It
was interesting through being able to control both the speed and direction of
each gobo. I
could get an amazing surface effect running the gobos in opposite directions,
and a flow (i.e., a stream moving in a direction) by running them in the same
direction...
same projector:).

In a future version I will use LED's, and print my gobos in black on clear stock
from graphics:). I'll also vary the LED's! Of course, I use audio to dirve the
lights:).

I've done this with incandescent clusters, you can get movement by 'chasing' the
lamps behind the gobos, and add shimmer and a fluidity to the effects by varying
individual lamps independantly, through the gobos. I'm sure it would work with
LED's, although I admit I haven't had a chance to try it yet. The last time I
had this
breadboarded (and working:) was over 10 years ago.

Hans, our resident enginear Bill is working on an entirely new audio driven
lighting approach. I'm honestly not qualified to be too specific about it yet,
but from
hanging on by a fingernail, its really clever. Its also really simple... its not
'digital', but its lightyears (no pun:) ahead of my old analog approach. Its
still analog, its
audio, but the filtering is active instead of passive.

Bill just sprung this on me last week (that's why I haven't got a complete grasp
of it yet:), but I understood him when he was describing it and its exciting. He
thinks he
can squeeze up to a dozen individual FX into a single audio channel. This means
up to 12, synchronized if desired, lighting FX... with potentially a CD quality
audio
channel (also synchronized:) left over.

Anyway, he's building/breadboarding a prototype (two, one for each of us), and I
promised to fiddle with the frequencies for however many LED bands he comes up
with. I know this is right up your alley, and thought you should know. Contact
me off list if you want to know more, but I warn you, I don't know know much
more at
this point:).

I can almost tell from watching the youtube video what they are doing with the
'watery ocean light'... and I don't really need to buy one (not just bragging,
but I've
scratch built better:). I do think because its R-T-R... with sound, and
inexpensive, that it is a terrific thing to share with the group. Thank you
again!
jim

PS Could one of our co-members share this over on animation & automation group? 
Its an animated water effect for sure:)...


The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Tue 03/11/09  7:23 AM , Hans Nouwens hans.nouwens@... sent:
> Jim & all,
>
> published today on dealextreme:
>
> Ocean-in-Room Relaxing Ocean Projector Speaker Pot
> Price: $27.00  free shipping
>
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.29747
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63vdMXOqBhs
> - Innovative light fixture projects a watery ocean light around your
> room- Transforming your environment into a relaxing tropical lagoon
> - Base can adjust the direction from 0 to 30 degree
> - Auti shutdown after 1 hour, can be used to relax yourself before
> sleeping- With speaker function, volume adjustable, 3.5mm audio plug
> - LED light on the top that can project rays of light
> - It is waterproof and can be used in the bathroom
> - Powered by 4*AA batteries (not include)
> - Package include: 1* Ocean Projector; 1* 3.5mm audio cable
> ** including spelling error on packaging :-)
>
> groetjes,
> Hans Nouwens.

Hi sound guru's and technical wizards.

I've been a group member for some time, but haven't posted yet. Hardly
lurked either, as I'm occupied with other things. Saved all incoming
emails though, for future reference.

I will introduce myself soon as well.

For now, I have a question that's been bugging me for some time. It's
about a (Lok)sound decoder in a model of a multiple unit. The
prototype is fitted out with a diesel motor under each coach. The
model is only equipped with one motor, so only one Loksound decoder is
really needed, and suppose two on one motor doesn't work well at all.
I intend to put a speaker in each coach, spaced as far apart as
possible, but on the other hand, preferably close to the modelled
prototype engine position. These would thus come off the one decoder.

On the prototype, both engines aren't fully in sync, most of the time.
From one decoder, this is very hard to put into a decoder project. The
used decoder project will be a commercially available one, so no
tweaks possible. Is there a way, with both coaches/speakers hooked up
to the one decoder, to alter the output to at least one speaker, to
mimic the perception/ give the impression, as if two engines are
running, instead of one engine is being heart through two speakers in
separate coaches ?


Kind Regards,
Michel van den Hof, Netherlands
http://www.shedcombe-upon-frome.co.uk/

Sent from my ( Gmail - trains ) account
michel.vandenhof.trains@...
.

Hey Michel,

Don't worry, its almost totally a lurking group... if they pay any attention at
all:). But we keep the group active for times like this when a member becomes...
active:).

I don't think there is a good answer to this... although I would be delighted to
be proven wrong.

You're right, the focus of the problem is the delay, in the sheer length of the
time period between the two motors. This would likely prototypically be on the
order of
several seconds and I don't think there is a decoder with enough memory to hold
a single file that would be long enough. And even if you could load a file long
enough, it would still be a repetitive variation. I do understand the problem:).

Even if you were to use two decoders there would be the problem of either
forcing or controlling the variation between them. Some decoders can be dummy
loaded
across the motor leads, can Lok's? If so, this might be the only way to achieve
the effect you're seeking. You would still need to fiddle with CV's (and
possibly create
different  files) to get them to respond differently to the same (MU'd )
commands.

Someone will suggest using disparate speakers in the separate units. This could
help fatten the sound up, but will not create the variation between individual
engines
you want.

You 'could' also ostensibly tap off of the amplified signal of a single decoder
and drive a delay to create a doubling in a second speaker/car, that would
fatten the
sound:). But it would take some doing (a serious bucket bragade:) to get any
delay of a second or more... and it would be obvious that one is 'following' the
other.

I know this is not the solution you need. But short of two decoders, and then
some fairly serious fiddling of CV's and possibly files... I'm not sure what you
could do to
get the prototype effect.

Has anyone ever used a Loksound decoder for sound only? Folks usually use
Loksound for the motor control:)...

I'm curious to see what others may suggest, and would you please let us know
what you decide to do?
HTH,
jim

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Tue 03/11/09  8:56 AM , "Michel van den Hof ( Gmail - trains )"
michel.vandenhof.trains@... sent:
> Hi sound guru's and technical wizards.
>
> I've been a group member for some time, but haven't posted yet. Hardly
> lurked either, as I'm occupied with other things. Saved all incoming
> emails though, for future reference.
>
> I will introduce myself soon as well.
>
> For now, I have a question that's been bugging me for some time. It's
> about a (Lok)sound decoder in a model of a multiple unit. The
> prototype is fitted out with a diesel motor under each coach. The
> model is only equipped with one motor, so only one Loksound decoder is
> really needed, and suppose two on one motor doesn't work well at all.
> I intend to put a speaker in each coach, spaced as far apart as
> possible, but on the other hand, preferably close to the modelled
> prototype engine position. These would thus come off the one decoder.
>
> On the prototype, both engines aren't fully in sync, most of the time.
> From one decoder, this is very hard to put into a decoder project. The
> used decoder project will be a commercially available one, so no
> tweaks possible. Is there a way, with both coaches/speakers hooked up
> to the one decoder, to alter the output to at least one speaker, to
> mimic the perception/ give the impression, as if two engines are
> running, instead of one engine is being heart through two speakers in
> separate coaches ?
>
>
> Kind Regards,
> Michel van den Hof, Netherlands
> http://www.shedcombe-upon-frome.co.uk/
> Sent from my ( Gmail - trains ) account
> michel.vandenhof.trains@....
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/
>  Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
>  To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/join(Yahoo! ID required)
>
>  To change settings via email:
> LayoutSound-digest@yahoogroups.com LayoutSound-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> LayoutSound-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi Jim,

"stumble into it" is almost right. I check this website regularly. They have
some amazing fake stuff at very low prices.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans Nouwens.

From: LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of enginears@...
Sent: dinsdag 3 november 2009 7:07
To: LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LayoutSound] Re: Water reflection effect


Hey Hans,

That is interesting...
The price is right:). I wonder if it could be scaled down? You know, if it could
be 'focused' at a shorter distance (a scale distance:)? If it can project at a
shorter
distance... it should scale down the size of the effect.
Have you gotten one of these (or did you just stumble into it:)? I think its (at
the least!) a terrific example of an LED FX projector. In mineature,
...

Dear Michael, Jim,



Just some quick thoughts;



1 - The closest issue that matches Michael's request is from the US
modelers, who want 1 decoder to provide the sound of 2 X EMD engines in
an E-unit passenger loco. No decoder thus far has the sonic equivalent
of "2 complete diesel engine units" brum-brum-brum-brum-ing along at
different RPMs/notches/rates.

(If you _DO_ find a decoder than can do a true "E-unit" dual-primemover
sound, then you've found a RTR decoder that could do what you need).



2 - I haven't heard of anyone using a LokSound decoder in "sound only"
mode. Reportedly the LokSounds _do_ rely on motor Back-EMF, so are
unlikely to behave with the motor leads "not connected". However, a
static resistor with Ohm rating that matches a motor is also likely to
require such a high _Wattage_ rating as to be too large and
hot-in-operation to work within a HO MU model.



3 - Logical suggestion, As per Fred Miller's SoundBug "traction
installs", why not connect a SoundBug up for the addition motor(s)?

If I understand correctly, the sound you intend to use is already
available in a LokSound project, but Fred has shown that bolting sounds
into a SoundBug is pretty easy,

(or should I say, no harder than bolting sounds into a LokSound!).



...and for bonus points, SoundBugs are small, and (relatively) very
cheap!

(I'm seeing them on eBay for US$40+shipping, see item # 350266497614).



Bearing in mind that the decoders are dis-similar, it is unlikely that
their audio playback systems are going to stay "in sync" while
free-running. Ergo, instant "phasing/cadence" between the "2 prime
movers"... :-)



4 - sure, if you could find a <audio-delay> circuit that was

- capable of handling a Speaker-level input,

- firing a speaker level output to drive a speaker directly

- could be powered from the rails

- was small enough to fit in the model in question

- and had a delay capability measured in multiple-seconds



Then it _could_ work. However, this still would not give the
characteristic
"brum-brum-bbrum-bbrum-brbrum-brubrum-brumbrumbrum-brumrum-brumum-brumm-
brum-brum" of 2 engines phasing in-out of beat/time sync.





In short, if you want

-          2 discrete and definite "point sources",
then simply run a 2nd speaker off the single common decoder



-          2 discrete "point sources" with definite "not at the same
time" beat,
insert some form of delay circuit between the source decoder and the 2nd
speaker



-          2 discrete "point sources" with independent cadence, rhythm,
and "speedup/down" rates,
A - hope for someone to come out with a E-unit decoder, which
effectively has TWO "prime mover" playback channels built in
OR
B - grab a SoundBug and separate speaker, load it up with the required
sounds, and set it to the same address as the LokSound



Just thinking out loud...



Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr



"...needing my morning caffeine,

Somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush..."









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Michel,

I just saw this (see: below) over on the SoundTraxx group. While for a different
loco, its an application of two decoders/speakers to emulate the sound of two
prime movers going in and out of sync...

I'm guessing:), CV 116 is also in a Loksound?
HTH,
jim

PS Let us know what you wind up doing!

==========
Robert,



Go for the new 539t they are out of this world! Both the atlas and the smaller
750 size will both work real nice. The DL-109 could be real expense if you use
two different boards and speaker set ups to duplicate the dual engines.
Adjusting CV 116 around you can get a differnet spool ups on each engines! Way
cool!!



Mike Ritschdorff

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Michel van den Hof ( Gmail - trains )"
<michel.vandenhof.trains@...> wrote:
>
> For now, I have a question that's been bugging me for some time. It's
> about a (Lok)sound decoder in a model of a multiple unit. The
> prototype is fitted out with a diesel motor under each coach.

I find that http://www.ModernMechanix.com is a great site to absorb several
hours.  The owner scans articles from magazines like Modern Mechanix, its
successor, Mechanix Illustrated, as well as Popular Science, Popular Mechanics,
and the like.  The pages are scanned and the texts are transcribed so that it
makes an interesting archive of articles the site owner found interesting.

I was searching for some keywords and found this 2-page article about the use of
sound in 1956 Disneyland, especially in the Jungle Cruise in the Adventureland
section, one of the park's original rides which became an E-ticket ride when
that form was available in 1959.

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/05/16/electronic-realism-in-disneyland/

As we know, good theme parks like Disneyland and layout sound have many
techniques in common.  We modelers borrow from the theme parks and sometimes the
theme parks use our techniques, including the DreamPlayer.

When I shared this article with Jim via email, he started to recognize some of
the pieces of equipment in the photo.

Reading Jim's comments, which I hope he will repeat and expand upon here, I
wonder how much of the equipment would also be familiar to Ed Sharpe of the
Southwest Museum of Engineering, Communications and Computation in Glendale, AZ,
in the historic Coury House.  He owns the Tom-Swift Yahoo group for discussions
about the books about several generations of young inventors.
_____

This article fits in with a collection of ones I have from technical and trade
magazines in the early years of Disneyland.  Often these have great details to
promote the equipment used to make the magic.

For example, I have a magazine for the air compressor industry that talks about
the many uses in the park, including during the light-off process for the Santa
Fe and Disneyland Railroad locomotives.

Another industry magazine focuses on hydraulic transmissions, called
Twin-Cylinder Road, that relates how these systems are used in rides like the
Teacups to provide smooth starts and stops.

I have a color photocopy of a GE lighiting magazine with details of the kinds of
lights used to illuminate different parts of the park, including the old 20,000
Leagues walk-through in Tomorrowland (1955-66).

If you have anything along this line that you'd be willing to share as vintage
copies for sale or scans, please contact me via email.

James Keeline
San Diego, CA

Good one James,

I especially like the phrases:
'Electronic Realism in Disneyland' (the realism part:)
'scenic make believe'

Both relate directly to a model railroad layout (or should). There is no real
difference... both a themepark attraction and a model railroad, are complete
fakes:)! And in both cases, we
want to create a level of realism that will make us believe. I've always
maintained (while Kalmbach hasn't:) that the level of 'fun' is a deciding factor
in any event.

The Altec-Lansing stadium horns (cleverly disguised as mushrooms?) are true
vintage stuff from back when they were still trying to unfold horns:). The big
compression drivers on top
are unchanged in any way, as are the radial horns... they are even unpainted.
Maybe this was something done for the photos (they're retouched to highlight the
horn drivers). As I recall,
they were simply out of view (hidden, rather than camoflagued). I never spotted
them from a boat (and I did try to' point source in' on them:). Maybe they made
them look like
mushrooms 'after' those photos were taken:).

I think I've seen photos of early McKinsie loop tape decks, I zoomed in and I
think that the players on the right hand shelves in that last photo are McKinsie
loops. We were still using
their decks, a newer version with a turntable platter that more gently handles
the tape (and much longer than 10 seconds:), in the early eighties. Digital was
still fairly unproven, and
not cheap:).

Not sure what the big reel to reel machine is, but it may be early audio
animatronics! I know that computer multitrack heads and transports were jury
rigged for this duty... just never
seen one:). Tones were recorded on the tracks and SVRT's (sympathetic vibrating
reed relays) closed when a specific tone was 'playing' on a given track. The
animation could be
synchronized in this way.

Ironically, this is called 'digital animation', simple on or off movement. The
real irony comes in because today with digital feedback control of position and
ballistics... these new
movements are called 'analog animation':). Just adding my two cents:)...

But I am still driving loads other than speakers... with audio. I haven't, but I
could turn on a motor with an audo signal... just as easily as I turn lamps and
LED's on and off:). Disney and
the imagineers knew the importance of sound back then. Dimensional animation
(audio animatronics back then) was a three dimensional extention of the
cartoon... with a picture
track, and a soundtrack:).

Not too many folks think of their model railroads as a 3D cartoon (might help:).
Thanks for sharing that here, I hope it reminds people of one of the reasons
they became involved with
model railroading in the first place...
jim

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Sun 08/11/09 11:21 AM , James Keeline keeline@... sent:
> I find that http://www.ModernMechanix.com is a great site to
> absorb several hours.  The owner scans articles from magazines like Modern
> Mechanix, its successor, Mechanix Illustrated, as well as Popular Science,
> Popular Mechanics, and the like.  The pages are scanned and the texts are
> transcribed so that it makes an interesting archive of articles the site
> owner found interesting.
> I was searching for some keywords and found this 2-page article about the
> use of sound in 1956 Disneyland, especially in the Jungle Cruise in the
> Adventureland section, one of the park's original rides which became an
> E-ticket ride when that form was available in 1959.
> http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/05/16/electronic-realism-in
> -disneyland/
> As we know, good theme parks like Disneyland and layout sound have many
> techniques in common.  We modelers borrow from the theme parks and
> sometimes the theme parks use our techniques, including the
> DreamPlayer.
> When I shared this article with Jim via email, he started to recognize some
> of the pieces of equipment in the photo.
> Reading Jim's comments, which I hope he will repeat and expand upon here, I
> wonder how much of the equipment would also be familiar to Ed Sharpe of the
> Southwest Museum of Engineering, Communications and Computation in
> Glendale, AZ, in the historic Coury House.  He owns the Tom-Swift Yahoo
> group for discussions about the books about several generations of young
> inventors._____
>
> This article fits in with a collection of ones I have from technical and
> trade magazines in the early years of Disneyland.  Often these have great
> details to promote the equipment used to make the magic.
> For example, I have a magazine for the air compressor industry that talks
> about the many uses in the park, including during the light-off process for
> the Santa Fe and Disneyland Railroad locomotives.
> Another industry magazine focuses on hydraulic transmissions, called
> Twin-Cylinder Road, that relates how these systems are used in rides like
> the Teacups to provide smooth starts and stops.
> I have a color photocopy of a GE lighiting magazine with details of the
> kinds of lights used to illuminate different parts of the park, including
> the old 20,000 Leagues walk-through in Tomorrowland (1955-66).
> If you have anything along this line that you'd be willing to share as
> vintage copies for sale or scans, please contact me via email.
> James Keeline
> San Diego, CA
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/
>  Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
>  To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/join(Yahoo! ID required)
>
>  To change settings via email:
> LayoutSound-digest@yahoogroups.com LayoutSound-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> LayoutSound-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Note that this article is from 1956 before the park was a year old.

Disney first referred to Audio Animatronics in 1960 with the opening of the
revised Mine Train ride called The Mine Train Thru Nature's Wonderland. 
However, when you look at most histories, they will credit the Enchanted Tiki
Room as the first fully audio animatronic attraction.

The early AAs used large discs the size of record albums which were cut to have
different radii to work with the mechanisms to move the animations.  These were
synchronized with audio sources.  Later magnetic tape was used.  Now it's all
digital.

Of course syncing audio with motion is something that is hard for us to do with
the DreamPlayer and other systems available to us.

James

Dear James,

I think you may mean "..._Not_ hard to do with the Dream Player..."

Given a known start point/event/Cue in both the Audio sequence <and> the
Ani-motion,
you can use the Audio Editor to create whatever "Audio <> Motion <> Audio"
relationship you wish...

Hey, I managed to create a fully working "Steam-powered" logging winch/yarder in
On30, that was manually driven by an human operator,
(IE no predictable sequence or timing between movements),

and still had "sync'd sound"... :-)

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr



--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, James Keeline <keeline@...> wrote:
>
SNIP
>
> Of course syncing audio with motion is something that is hard for us to do
with the DreamPlayer and other systems available to us.
>
> James
>

Dear Professor,

When it comes to matters Disney... James is scarey good:). He's right, the 'cams
and levers' were the first generation of animation control.

As I understand it, they didn't have true synchronization with that system
either (10 second loops:). In dimensional animation there is a distinction drawn
between cueing, and 'frame
synchronization':). It 'seems' like I recall some expiriments in optical/film
'audio players':). But synchronization was still analog (mechanical) with audio
animatronics... and that was
several years after the photos.

Framerate sync (adopted from film:) wasn't possible until the DACS system. I've
had the luxury of complete control of all audio, lighting, and animation...
frame locked, its fun:). But I
honestly have yet to find an application in model railroading that requires
anything more than simple cueing.

We 'kind of' have that with the trains now... its not frame rate sync'd, but DCC
is certainly close enough for decent cueing:)! It would be nice to have a number
of elements (visual and
aural) in sync, or at least creatively closely cue'd. In a way, they're defined
much like DC and DCC are now... cueing and synchronization are separated.... at
the computer:).

SoundPro is the departure point in at least some of this. It operates on a
computer, but because it communicates via DCC commands, it more approximates
cueing:). The third
generation Disney animation control system (DACS) had frame rate
synchronization, everything was sync'd to, wait for it:)... the audio player.
One audio track was allowcated to a time
code of one sort or another (I liked SEMPTE:). All the animation and lighting
were programmed to the sound. But everything advanced to the same frame at
pretty much the speed of
light:).

I'm kind of getting back to basics these days, and working in a fairly pure from
of audio animatronics. I allowcate an audio channel to control a number of
lighting FX, in sync to an
audio track. I've been doing this with two channels, but with SoundPro...
ostensibly:), I 'should' be able to allowcate additional tracks, i.e., three.
That way I could have my FX and sync
to audio, a stereo pair:). That's where I think SoundPro is going to be handy...
within s single scene.

I genuinely prefer to keep it as simple as possible... the system part:). If I
can cue two or more audio tracks in sync, and a bunch of other stuff
automatically synchronizes to it:). Well
that's audioanimatronics baby! Of course, that requires an audio editor...
jim:)

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Sun 08/11/09  7:15 PM , "loggingloco1" johnd@... sent:
> Dear James,
>
> I think you may mean "..._Not_ hard to do with the Dream Player..."
>
> Given a known start point/event/Cue in both the Audio sequence  the
> Ani-motion, you can use the Audio Editor to create whatever "Audio  Motion 
Audio"
> relationship you wish...
> Hey, I managed to create a fully working "Steam-powered" logging
> winch/yarder in On30, that was manually driven by an human operator,(IE no
predictable sequence or timing between movements),
>
> and still had "sync'd sound"... :-)
>
> Happy Modelling,
> Aim to Improve,
> Prof Klyzlr
>
>
>
> --- In L
> ayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, James Keeline  wrote:>
> SNIP
> >
> > Of course syncing audio with motion is something that
> is hard for us to do with the DreamPlayer and other systems available to
> us.>
> > James
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/
>  Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
>  To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/join(Yahoo! ID required)
>
>  To change settings via email:
> LayoutSound-digest@yahoogroups.com LayoutSound-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> LayoutSound-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi Jim

The whole Disney approach adds weight to your often stated approach for
layout sound.

One example that keeps popping into my mind when I think about MRR
soundscapes is the "small world" ride I took my daughter on many many years
ago - the same melody played softly throughout the ride, with the words
changing language with each change of scene, and it did so in a way that the
transitions were, unless your really worked at it, very hard to localise...
you never heard them, one minute in French, the other German etc etc...

Simple magic we would do well to emulate on our layouts.

The great sound effects/soundscapes are always subtle, so we are well within
the soundscape before we notice its scope and complexity and that means the
realisation of its detail is always a pleasant surprise rather than a
kitschy or corny whack in the ear :-) :-).

Regards

Richard

DCCconcepts Pty Ltd.3/13 Lionel Street, Naval Base, WA6165 , Australia
Ph: +61 8 9437 2470  Fax: +61 8 9437 2471
www.dccconcepts.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <enginears@...>
To: <LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: [LayoutSound] Re: 1956 sound technology used at Disneyland


> Dear Professor,
>
> When it comes to matters Disney... James is scarey good:). He's right, the
> 'cams and levers' were the first generation of animation control.
>
> As I understand it, they didn't have true synchronization with that system
> either (10 second loops:). In dimensional animation there is a distinction
> drawn between cueing, and 'frame
> synchronization':). It 'seems' like I recall some expiriments in
> optical/film 'audio players':). But synchronization was still analog
> (mechanical) with audio animatronics... and that was
> several years after the photos.
>
> Framerate sync (adopted from film:) wasn't possible until the DACS system.
> I've had the luxury of complete control of all audio, lighting, and
> animation... frame locked, its fun:). But I
> honestly have yet to find an application in model railroading that
> requires anything more than simple cueing.
>
> We 'kind of' have that with the trains now... its not frame rate sync'd,
> but DCC is certainly close enough for decent cueing:)! It would be nice to
> have a number of elements (visual and
> aural) in sync, or at least creatively closely cue'd. In a way, they're
> defined much like DC and DCC are now... cueing and synchronization are
> separated.... at the computer:).
>
> SoundPro is the departure point in at least some of this. It operates on a
> computer, but because it communicates via DCC commands, it more
> approximates cueing:). The third
> generation Disney animation control system (DACS) had frame rate
> synchronization, everything was sync'd to, wait for it:)... the audio
> player. One audio track was allowcated to a time
> code of one sort or another (I liked SEMPTE:). All the animation and
> lighting were programmed to the sound. But everything advanced to the same
> frame at pretty much the speed of
> light:).
>
> I'm kind of getting back to basics these days, and working in a fairly
> pure from of audio animatronics. I allowcate an audio channel to control a
> number of lighting FX, in sync to an
> audio track. I've been doing this with two channels, but with SoundPro...
> ostensibly:), I 'should' be able to allowcate additional tracks, i.e.,
> three. That way I could have my FX and sync
> to audio, a stereo pair:). That's where I think SoundPro is going to be
> handy... within s single scene.
>
> I genuinely prefer to keep it as simple as possible... the system part:).
> If I can cue two or more audio tracks in sync, and a bunch of other stuff
> automatically synchronizes to it:). Well
> that's audioanimatronics baby! Of course, that requires an audio editor...
> jim:)
>
> The Model Railroad Magic Website
> www.fantasonics.com
> Have Fun!!!
>
> On Sun 08/11/09  7:15 PM , "loggingloco1" johnd@... sent:
>> Dear James,
>>
>> I think you may mean "..._Not_ hard to do with the Dream Player..."
>>
>> Given a known start point/event/Cue in both the Audio sequence  the
>> Ani-motion, you can use the Audio Editor to create whatever "Audio
>> Motion  Audio"
>> relationship you wish...
>> Hey, I managed to create a fully working "Steam-powered" logging
>> winch/yarder in On30, that was manually driven by an human operator,(IE
>> no predictable sequence or timing between movements),
>>
>> and still had "sync'd sound"... :-)
>>
>> Happy Modelling,
>> Aim to Improve,
>> Prof Klyzlr
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In L
>> ayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, James Keeline  wrote:>
>> SNIP
>> >
>> > Of course syncing audio with motion is something that
>> is hard for us to do with the DreamPlayer and other systems available to
>> us.>
>> > James
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>  To visit your group on the web, go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/
>>  Your email settings:
>> Individual Email | Traditional
>>
>>  To change settings online go to:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LayoutSound/join(Yahoo! ID required)
>>
>>  To change settings via email:
>> LayoutSound-digest@yahoogroups.com
>> LayoutSound-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> LayoutSound-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
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19:40:00

Hey Richard,

As usual, spot on. I approach most scenes as a collection of super details... a
composition, of tiny details that for the most part will not be heard.

First off, very little else is audible when a train goes by:). Secondly, a scene
in a layout shold not (usually) compete with either the trains moving through
it, or other scenes. I can think
of several exceptions to this, and for the sake of thinking outside the box
(scene:)...

If someone wants to cariacture a sound (for fun).
If someone wants to model a big event (i.e., a steel mill).

Back to your point:). I'll build a hundred little elements for a scene. When
composing, I reuse the same element several times... in varying contexts and at
varying levels. At some point I
feature it by either mixing it louder, and/or placing it is a quiet moment
(assuming it plays back at a quiet moment:). If the layout, rooms, trains, or
humans are loud at any given
moment, good sound will always be drowned out.

I build for playback volume that will be drowned out by on board sound when it
is present. In this sense, I am building sound for the scene when a train is not
present (but an operator
or visitor is:). The vast majority of the time, I don't want the scene to
compete with the trains or the rest of the layout...

At scale volume we only have a small part of the audible sound pressures. We
only have the dynamic range between the threshold of hearing and whatever volume
level we feel is 'scale'
(likely 70-80db at most!). The scene has to share this 'scale dynamic range'
with the trains. And it gets worse:). The useable scale dynamic range is
relative to the ambient noise floor in
your layout room which is often above the threshold of hearing.

I suppose the only point to this is that to be in any prototypical/believeable
relationship with our trains, the layout sound has to be at (is forced into:)
the audible background. And I
totally agree that if we do a good job of modeling anything, visual or aural, on
board or off, people will accept it as 'only natural'... read: take it for
granted:).

God to Bender (Futurama),
When you do something really well... no one will think you did anything at all.'
jim:)

PS At Disney, the idea is to tell a story in such a way that people will forget
its only a movie, cartoon, or theme park attraction. In scale, our goal 'should'
be to do the same thing... to
suspend disbelief. I personally think this job is made easier, by making a model
fun.


The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Wed 11/11/09  2:11 AM , "Richard Johnson" rejohnson@... sent:
> Hi Jim
>
> The whole Disney approach adds weight to your often stated approach for
> layout sound.
>
> One example that keeps popping into my mind when I think about MRR
> soundscapes is the "small world" ride I took my daughter on many many years
> ago - the same melody played softly throughout the ride, with the words
> changing language with each change of scene, and it did so in a way that
> the transitions were, unless your really worked at it, very hard to
localise...
> you never heard them, one minute in French, the other German etc etc...
>
> Simple magic we would do well to emulate on our layouts.
>
> The great sound effects/soundscapes are always subtle, so we are well
> within the soundscape before we notice its scope and complexity and that means
the
> realisation of its detail is always a pleasant surprise rather than a
> kitschy or corny whack in the ear :-) :-).
>
> Regards
>
> Richard
>
> DCCconcepts Pty Ltd.3/13 Lionel Street, Naval Base, WA6165 , Australia
> Ph: +61 8 9437 2470  Fax: +61 8 9437 2471
> www.dccconcepts.com

Dear Professor, Michel, Hans,

I have kept this email in my inbox beause a couple of things were gnawing at
me:).

First, I think we need to be more specific about what is being sync'd here. If
we're talking about the decoders running... they are never in sync (not like
Disney sync:). But I think that we
are hearing a much shorter time period at work. The comparison is between two
short loops. The difference of the two decoder's internal clocks is likely not
audible, so for argument's
sake we'll say that the decoders are playing them at the same speed. And also
for the sake of this discussion, we really don't need to consider how a given
decoder handles speed
changes, momentum, BEMF, etc., these differences would probably work to our
advantage anyway:).

A 'run' loop is generally a fraction of a second long... as a loop it is
essentially constantly retriggering. Comparing the two decoders is literally
comparing these two loops, and that
means that by definition, they cannot be more than 'half a fraction of a second'
out of sync... before they begin to go back into sync:).

If one could shave even a few miliseconds off of one loop, or add a few to the
other (or do both:), the two loops would drift out of, and back into phase over
time. Because they are
retriggering so often this could add up quick.

This assumes user loading, but otherwise has potential... in theory at least:).

As you say Professor, a sound bug would be the logical second decoder (no motor
necessary:). There is likely, technically, a problem loading loksound samples in
a sound bug, but as
long as the two sample files differ by a number of miliseconds (to be determined
by ear:), this should cause a subtle choral enhancement phase shift! I should
think this will work
better than any EQ, or reverb/delay, or speed/BEMF, etc., that anyone could
tweak with CV's. Or would enhance any of these tweaks:).

Hope this helps,
jim

The Model Railroad Magic Website
www.fantasonics.com
Have Fun!!!

On Wed 04/11/09  1:57 PM , "John Dimitrievich" johnd@... sent:
> Dear Michael, Jim,
>
>
>
> Just some quick thoughts;
>
>
>
> 1 - The closest issue that matches Michael's request is from the US
> modelers, who want 1 decoder to provide the sound of 2 X EMD engines in
> an E-unit passenger loco. No decoder thus far has the sonic equivalent
> of "2 complete diesel engine units" brum-brum-brum-brum-ing along at
> different RPMs/notches/rates.
>
> (If you _DO_ find a decoder than can do a true "E-unit" dual-primemover
> sound, then you've found a RTR decoder that could do what you need).
>
>
>
> 2 - I haven't heard of anyone using a LokSound decoder in "sound only"
> mode. Reportedly the LokSounds _do_ rely on motor Back-EMF, so are
> unlikely to behave with the motor leads "not connected". However, a
> static resistor with Ohm rating that matches a motor is also likely to
> require such a high _Wattage_ rating as to be too large and
> hot-in-operation to work within a HO MU model.
>
>
>
> 3 - Logical suggestion, As per Fred Miller's SoundBug "traction
> installs", why not connect a SoundBug up for the addition motor(s)?
>
> If I understand correctly, the sound you intend to use is already
> available in a LokSound project, but Fred has shown that bolting sounds
> into a SoundBug is pretty easy,
>
> (or should I say, no harder than bolting sounds into a LokSound!).
>
>
>
> ...and for bonus points, SoundBugs are small, and (relatively) very
> cheap!
>
> (I'm seeing them on eBay for US$40+shipping, see item # 350266497614).
>
>
>
> Bearing in mind that the decoders are dis-similar, it is unlikely that
> their audio playback systems are going to stay "in sync" while
> free-running. Ergo, instant "phasing/cadence" between the "2 prime
> movers"... :-)
>
>
>
> 4 - sure, if you could find a  circuit that was
>
> - capable of handling a Speaker-level input,
>
> - firing a speaker level output to drive a speaker directly
>
> - could be powered from the rails
>
> - was small enough to fit in the model in question
>
> - and had a delay capability measured in multiple-seconds
>
>
>
> Then it _could_ work. However, this still would not give the
> characteristic
>
"brum-brum-bbrum-bbrum-brbrum-brubrum-brumbrumbrum-brumrum-brumum-brumm-brum-bru\
m" of 2 engines phasing in-out of beat/time sync.
>
>
>
>
>
> In short, if you want
>
> -          2 discrete and definite "point sources",
> then simply run a 2nd speaker off the single common decoder
>
>
>
> -          2 discrete "point sources" with definite "not at the same
> time" beat,
> insert some form of delay circuit between the source decoder and the
> 2ndspeaker
>
>
>
> -          2 discrete "point sources" with independent cadence, rhythm,
> and "speedup/down" rates,
> A - hope for someone to come out with a E-unit decoder, which
> effectively has TWO "prime mover" playback channels built in
> OR
> B - grab a SoundBug and separate speaker, load it up with the required
> sounds, and set it to the same address as the LokSound
>
>
>
> Just thinking out loud...
>
>
>
> Happy Modelling,
>
> Aim to Improve,
>
> Prof Klyzlr
>
>
>
> "...needing my morning caffeine,
>
> Somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush..."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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