Hey all,

I hope this list will be popular and get a bunch of good people to try
their hand at layout sound.  Almost any sound is better than silence.
And done with the same care that we put into the visual aspects of our
pikes, it can lend so much to our enjoyment of this fantasic Hobby.

Our layouts should not be forced to be mimes, scale sound IS the other
image.  Modeling in it is faster, cheaper... and most of the time, less
messy than creating the scenes we are putting the sound into:).

I will be posting announcements on all the lists I belong to soon, I
would ask you to do the same... if you wish:).  Put out the word, lets
give off board sound the recognition it deserves!

Best Regards,
jim

PS  I will do my best to answer any and all questions, but lets get a
bunch of members in here to help... its time to get layout sound
buzzing!

Hey all,

Well, I announced the group on the SoundTraxx list yesterday and we got
27 new members overnight.  This is heartening, there is obviously
interest in layout sound.  The comments from those joining look like
there are some fairly heavy hitters too, and I expect there will be
some lively threads being woven here:).

I can tell you that if you have an idea for sound in your layout but
you are not sure where to get started, you should share your idea here.
I notice that some of the folks who have joined are versed in all of
the associated arts and sciences.  I can almost guarentee that you will
get some serious help and suggestions in the responses.

If any of you are on other lists that might have members who would be
interested, you might want to mention this group there.  I am only
involved with about a dozen lists, but will send notices a bit later.

I will give the list a few more days to get established (and make a few
more announcements:)... then we'll try to kick things off.  There are
some fairly exciting things going on in model railroad sound, and we're
going to get after them here:)!

Write when you have time,
jim:)

Hey all,

Well, things are off to a terrific start.  Everyone who has subscribed
so far has been approved... its really just a technicality for your
protection against spam.  I asked the moderators of a couple of other
lists how they thought I should set it up, and took their advice.  And
I'm already getting more help, off list:).  Bear with me as I get up to
speed on this.  We'll get to the fun stuff soon eneough!
jim

Hi Jim and All,

   First Jim, thanks for starting this list.  My name is Steve
Amitrano from San Antonio, Texas.  I model the Chili Line in Sn 3
circa late 1930's to late 1940's as if the line did not shut down.
One main point that made me switch to Sn 3 was the fidelity of sound
PBL produces.  This is as far as I am concerned the best there is in
the DC world.  I would like to have independent train control with
DCC but to my ears the trade off of the loss of high end quality
sound verse independent train control is not worth it at this time.
To me sound and smooth operations go hand-in-hand.

   I have done a lot of experimentation to get the best sound out of
my system and have come up with a process that will increase sound
fidelity but also increase performance of your engines especially
brass locomotives.

    I am hoping that there will be a future sound DCC system that
meets or surpasses what I have now.  Until that time comes I am very
happy with my PBL Foreground Sound System.  Pictures of my layout can
be found on the Oklahoma Narrow Guage web site, we lived in Oklahoma
before coming to SA 18 months ago.  The site is:  www.okng.org.

        Looking forward in hearing form you all,

             Steve Amitrano

Hi,

My name is Dave Falkenburg, and I'm out here in California.  I'm a
member of an HO club, Silicon Valley Lines
(http://www.siliconvalleylines.com/). I'm hoping to play with adding
ambient sound to the club layout sometime in the near future.

In my day job, I work at Apple, albeit on notebook computers, not the
iPod.  As a result, I'm probably going to do something involving
putting some computers under the layout someday, although I really
prefer scenic-ing to anything electronic ;-)

Hope to have some fun.

-Dave

P.S.: Over the weekend I noticed that both Target and Office Max we
selling portable CD players for between $9.99 and $15.99— which makes
diving into layout sound a bit more palatable.  Jim's trained ears seem
to think some of the cheap CD players sound scratchy or gravely, but I
haven't been able to notice much of that (although I haven't hooked
them up to powered speakers yet)

Hello, thanks for letting me join. Have a question on station
announcements. But first, about me:

Have been collecting ACL & SAL models in H0 to run in my attic on
Digitrax. Also am fabricating a staging yard for my local club.
Being metric, the four plywood braced modules are one metre by a
half, making a yard four metre by a half. Here in UK the English
locomotives would often run singly and would not use as many decoder
functions as the US locomotives. Typically the layouts are
transportable from show to show, are operated by a group, and are
switching layouts two metres long. Many posts on an operator yahoo
group, describe a roundy-roundy club show, with little switching.
Well, switching is what we do, couplers must be are bullet proof.
Now, the crowd pullers are animation, and, rarely heard, sound. By
animation I mean a nodding-donkey oil pump, or, a simulated arc
welder in a shed. the noises we have simulated have been a church
service and a local radio station in a greasy spoon (fast food)
cafe.

One sound that sets the time for me is a station announcement for a
passenger train. Christmas brings lots of Hitchcock movies to TV.
One was Marnie (1964), http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058329/, I
became more alert to the soundtrack when the female lead, used a
left-luggage locker in presumably Penn station. The public address
announcement had a lot of static but as soon as I heard Rocky Mount.
I replayed my VCR several times. It sounded like  static-static-
Washington-Richmond-Petersburg-Rocky Mount-Wilson-static-Florence-
Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville-Miami-Tampa-Saint Petersburg then
lots more static. Maybe it was a Hollywood spoof.

I pondered on station announcements. They were frequent when I was a
young chap train spotting on Reading General station here in UK -
but there were ten platforms and many trains.
October last, I wondered what recorded message I could use on a
miniature Carolina station, to give a sense of time and place. If
none existed then I could write a script for a radio announcer
friend of mine to record, with a Southern accent of course. (She
being a Florida expatriate, she might surprise me with a distinctive
clipped North Carolina accent.

So, your comments please. What would a train announcer say? Where
announcements only made at larger stations? Is there any commercial
offering?

Phil Clark, ALTON GU34 2RS, UK
cell: +44(0)-7792-744-327
ACL & SAL HS since 1998
NMRA #55716 BR#10/119

I am interested in adding sound to my layout, but not sure what will be
good. I see the Sound Station Units, but not sure which sounds are
continuous and which are momentary, if the continuous sounds are just
say 5 second clips that play over and over and therefore sound
unnatural, and what the quality of the sound is.

In Garden raiways, saw a manufacturer that had sound modules that cost
say $30 each for one type of sound. I assume they were all continuous,
but again, don't know if it would be a 5 sec clip played over and over
and if the quality was any good.

Then I guess one could get some sort of sound effect recordings, like
those nature cds, and just play those through a stereo. But not sure if
this would be good.

And having the railroad outside really doesn't help here as the sound
will have to be of enough volume for the area and the background noise.

So experts, tell the story.

Hello all,

First I really do want to say thanks to Jim Wells for starting this
group.

I'm sure a lot of the people who have joined so soon after you
announced the formation of the group have done so because of being
familiar with your always-knowledgeable and helpful/insightful posts
we have come to know through the other Yahoo!Groups you are a member
of.  At least that was MY reaction (What? Jim W started a group on
layout sound?  I'M THERE DUDE!)

Working in N and Nn3, I have a lot of plans and ideas for things I
want to do regarding layout sound which I don't have time to get into
too much right now, but here is a snap-shot of some of the things I'd
like to explore.  These are mostly oriented towards a sectional
layout that would be taken to shows but many or even all of them
could be done as well for a permanent home layout that sees
visitors/open houses.  The types of things below would be in addition
to on-board locomotive sound, and all fall under a philosophy I am
adopting that I call "Model Railroad as Museum display".  I love the
displays that museums have where a very life-like diorama is
accompanied by recorded narration of some kind.  Model railroads
should have these too :^)

Things I want to explore

1.  Local industrial and environmental/nature sounds (pretty standard
goal).  Any of these types of sounds could and occasionally should,
pan between speakers for great 3-D effects.

2.  Informational listening stations (comprised of small headphones
cut in half and held to one ear, wired separately so two people could
listen at the same time) giving info about such things as; 1)the
general model railroad layout itself, 2) prototype info on the area
and/or railroad being modeled, 3) special features or things of
particular interest to look for in the layout, 4) anything else you
could think of that could be of interest to pass along to viewers of
your layout.

I wouldn't mean for such `stations' to replace the layout operator(s)
interacting with viewers, but think of how much interesting
information a viewer could quickly receive this way that wouldn't be
practical for them to receive any other way.  How many questions are
not being asked by viewers of your layout just because they don't
know what to ask in the first place (particularly John Q non-model-
railroader Public)?  And when a question IS asked, how much time do
you have to give a good full answer like you would really like to be
able to give sometimes?  Personally, I'd LOVE to have something that
would let me know a little about the why's and where fore's of a
layout I'm looking at, you could think of it as a talking magazine
article about your layout.

3.  Musical listening stations.  Yes, MUSICAL listening stations on
my model railroad (a full headphone this time).  Music is a powerful
mood setter.  With the right music, I can affect your senses,
changing your perception of your environmental surroundings to put
you more into the scene, in both a physical sense, and probably more
importantly, in a temporal sense.  I think music (at a background
level that wouldn't obliterate the on-board loco sound) can connect
you to the time period of the model in a way that merely `appropriate
physical environmental sounds' can not hope to achieve.  I could get
into more detail on this to be clearer about what I mean but I did
say I wanted to be brief, so maybe more in the future.

4.  I just thought about this one tonight; purely nature environment
listening stations (full headphones again).  Want to imply a certain
season or specific type of weather?  As an example that I could apply
to MY future layout, a stereo track of a distant thunderstorm with
some light local breezes and light local rain fall when viewing
scenery set in Colorado mountains and meadows, could just about make
you shiver.  You could even have (I would have) a couple or three
DIFFERENT types for someone to choose between, let them pick their
own favorite.

5.  Lastly, depending on how much "production values" you wanted to
build into your audio creations, you could combine any of the above
to any degree you wanted.  Two-track audio recording, arranging, and
mixing are pretty easy anymore with a home computer.

Conclusion

I'll probably have opportunity to put some of these into practice on
a friends HOn3 sectional display layout before I'm at the point of
needing to on my own layout but that's ok, there'll be practical
results to report on that much sooner.

Have fun,
Jim Hoover

Hello, thanks for letting me join. Have a question on station announcements. But
first, about me:

Have been collecting ACL & SAL models in H0 to run in my attic on Digitrax. Also
am fabricating a staging yard for my local club. Being metric, the four plywood
braced modules are one metre by a half, making a yard four metre by a half. Here
in UK the English locomotives would often run singly and would not use as many
decoder functions as the US locomotives. Typically the layouts are transportable
from show to show, are operated by a group, and are switching layouts two metres
long. Many posts on an operator yahoo group, describe a roundy-roundy club show,
with little switching. Well, switching is what we do, couplers must be are
bullet proof. Now, the crowd pullers are animation, and, rarely heard, sound. By
animation I mean a nodding-donkey oil pump, or, a simulated arc welder in a
shed. the noises we have simulated have been a church service and a local radio
station in a greasy spoon (fast food) cafe.

One sound that sets the time for me is a station announcement for a passenger
train. Christmas brings lots of Hitchcock movies to TV. One was Marnie (1964),
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058329/, I became more alert to the soundtrack when
the female lead, used a left-luggage locker in presumably Penn station. The
public address announcement had a lot of static but as soon as I heard Rocky
Mount. I replayed my VCR several times. It sounded like 
static-static-Washington-Richmond-Petersburg-Rocky
Mount-Wilson-static-Florence-Charleston-Savannah-Jacksonville-Miami-Tampa-Saint
Petersburg then lots more static. Maybe it was a Hollywood spoof.

I pondered on station announcements. They were frequent when I was a young chap
train spotting on Reading General station here in UK - but there were ten
platforms and many trains. I wondered if similar announcements were to be heard
at say the Raleigh SAL station when the Silver Star came in.

Earlier, in October last, I wondered what recorded message I could use on a
miniature Carolina station, to give a sense of time and place. If none existed
then I could write a script for a radio announcer friend of mine to record, with
a Southern accent of course. (She being a Florida expatriate, she might surprise
me with a distinctive clipped North Carolina accent.

So, your comments please. What would a train announcer say? Where announcements
only made at larger stations? Is there any commercial offering?

Phil Clark, ALTON GU34 2RS, UK
cell: +44(0)-7792-744-327
ACL & SAL HS since 1998
NMRA #55716 BR#10/119

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the new Layout Sound group.  My name is Ron Proffitt and I
live in Central Kansas.  I model the Rio Grande Southern narrow gauge
in On3 scale.  I'm currently building my layout and have frequently
thought about layout sounds.  I have room for the Ridgway 7-stall
roundhouse and will be scratch building it "someday" and have always
thought about very subdued "sounds emitting" from the roundhouse;
machinery, a radio playing late 40's music, people, etc.  I am
currently installing my EasyDCC control system, and will use Phoenix
Sound for my Loco's until something better comes along
(Tsunami...maybe).
I, like Steve Amatrano from San Antonio, associate myself with a
great bunch of guys from KS, OK, & TX several times a year.  In fact
another Sn3 modeler and myself are hosting the 9th semi-annual OKNG
meet May 20-21.  Check out the OKNG website for details,
www.okng.org.

I hope this is the place I can  "learn" about layout sound and how I
can apply it to my modeling.

Regards,

Ron Proffitt
CrossIron RR Heralds (see Gazette ads)
Lyons, KS

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "tored1" <tored1@y...> wrote:
>
>
> I am interested in adding sound to my layout, but not sure what
will be
> good. I see the Sound Station Units, but not sure which sounds are
> continuous and which are momentary, if the continuous sounds are
just
> say 5 second clips that play over and over and therefore sound
> unnatural, and what the quality of the sound is.
>
> In Garden raiways, saw a manufacturer that had sound modules that
cost
> say $30 each for one type of sound. I assume they were all
continuous,
> but again, don't know if it would be a 5 sec clip played over and
over
> and if the quality was any good.
>
> Then I guess one could get some sort of sound effect recordings,
like
> those nature cds, and just play those through a stereo. But not
sure if
> this would be good.
>
> And having the railroad outside really doesn't help here as the
sound
> will have to be of enough volume for the area and the background
noise.
>
> So experts, tell the story.

I agree that little 5 second sound bites do get annoying and tiresome.

Fantasonics sells 'aural scenes'.  I've a few and these things are
great for creating a sense of realism.  They come on a CD and really
do complete a scene.  I run them continuously.  They're long enough
that you don't get a sense that they are repeating themselves and
provide a lot of interesting sounds that punctuate the overall
background noises of wind, water, birds and other critters.  Well
worth them money.

Check them out at: www.fantasonics.com

I sometimes take them to work just to listen to them on my computer.
They're that cool!  Turns my desk space into cool mountain spot next
to a babbling stream, a rowdy saloon, a hard rock mine or even a
desert! You can imagine what they do for a layout with all the
building and scenery to complete the illusion.

BTW they are engineered to created a '3D image' that you won't
believe.  It's so effective that if you can't see the speaker you
probably won't be able to locate it!

Steve

Hi All,

Want to first thank Jim for starting the group.

We all know that speaker concealment is critical to maintaining the
illusion.  I've posted a couple of photos in the photos section within
the file 'sdj'.  They show how I used the grills from the computer
speakers I scavenged to conceal the placement of them on the layout.

These will be worked into the surrounding scenery.

Regards,

Steve

Hi Steve,

Fantastic layout!  I'l bet it sounds as good as it looks.

Steve

Jim, thanks for letting me join. I've a already read all the initial
posts and checked out the pics for concealing PC speaker covers.What a
great idea! Looking forward to seeing what others have done to
incorporate sounds and bring life to what would otherwise be a static
display. I've sampled some of the commercial products already, but
found few that really fit my specific needs. I've been hooked on
annimating small scenes since I saw a modular group doing the same on
their layout many years ago (I think it was the Eastern Loggers from
the Cincinnati area). Now I want to take this idea one step further
with sounds. Looking forward to the future.....

Bob McCormick in GA

Hey Steve and all,

Thanks for the kind words.  While Steve is indeed a customer, he has
also become a dear friend... so you shouldn't really believe any of
what he says (even though its all true:)!

This brings me to the reason for this email.  Someone asked who has the
answers, and the simple answer is, the folks on this list!  I expect
that an educated membership will make for a better group, so I am going
to offer you all a little 'groupwarming present':).

We want people to have a positive experience with scale layout sound so
we 'force' them to buy an owner's manual with their first CD purchase.
Its a 33 page manual and is a free standing tutorial on scale sound in
its own right.  While it does go into gory detail about how our scale
magic sound works, the rest of the manual describes layout sound in
just as much detail. There are sections on the nature of human hearing
a scale sound applications, system component choices and applications,
installation, and concealment.

We don't make any money on the bound manuals, but we do sell them so I
will trust the membership to keep this URL within the group:
http://www.fantasonics.com/manual.pdf

I think this is worth the download and reading time, and it will get
everyone up to speed so we can concentrate on the more esoteric,
creative and fun aspects of layout sound... and your particular
questions and projects.

We're a small group by most standards, of course we're new, but my
experience is that layout sound is way down on the list of things to
do... if its on the list at all.  We need to stick together.  I think
sound is the other image!  I'm not saying anything negative about the
visual image that we all traditionally model in, but I do believe that
the aural image can be just as much fun to model.  Its generally a lot
less messy, there's less drying time, and it usually a lot cheaper to
model than the visual scene you are putting it into:).

Ok, enough preaching to the choir, go do your homework:)!  And for
goodness sakes, have some fun with this!

Sincerely,
jim

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sjarmanII@a...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "tored1" <tored1@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am interested in adding sound to my layout, but not sure what
> will be
> > good. I see the Sound Station Units, but not sure which sounds are
> > continuous and which are momentary, if the continuous sounds are
> just
> > say 5 second clips that play over and over and therefore sound
> > unnatural, and what the quality of the sound is.
> >
> > In Garden raiways, saw a manufacturer that had sound modules that
> cost
> > say $30 each for one type of sound. I assume they were all
> continuous,
> > but again, don't know if it would be a 5 sec clip played over and
> over
> > and if the quality was any good.
> >
> > Then I guess one could get some sort of sound effect recordings,
> like
> > those nature cds, and just play those through a stereo. But not
> sure if
> > this would be good.
> >
> > And having the railroad outside really doesn't help here as the
> sound
> > will have to be of enough volume for the area and the background
> noise.
> >
> > So experts, tell the story.
>
> I agree that little 5 second sound bites do get annoying and tiresome.
>
> Fantasonics sells 'aural scenes'.  I've a few and these things are
> great for creating a sense of realism.  They come on a CD and really
> do complete a scene.  I run them continuously.  They're long enough
> that you don't get a sense that they are repeating themselves and
> provide a lot of interesting sounds that punctuate the overall
> background noises of wind, water, birds and other critters.  Well
> worth them money.
>
> Check them out at: www.fantasonics.com
>
> I sometimes take them to work just to listen to them on my computer.
> They're that cool!  Turns my desk space into cool mountain spot next
> to a babbling stream, a rowdy saloon, a hard rock mine or even a
> desert! You can imagine what they do for a layout with all the
> building and scenery to complete the illusion.
>
> BTW they are engineered to created a '3D image' that you won't
> believe.  It's so effective that if you can't see the speaker you
> probably won't be able to locate it!
>
> Steve

Jim said:
I'm not saying anything negative about the
visual image that we all traditionally model in, but I do believe that
the aural image can be just as much fun to model.

Adding sound to your layout is fun to watch, yes I said watch. The RR
club I belong too has our annual business meeting at a members home.
This last year it was at my house. On my layout I have a fairly large
engine terminal on the front edge of my layout. I have a sound module
playing multiple engines idling with a random one revving up and then
down again. Now the club members know I have a few engines with sound
decoders mounted in them. I watched one club member put his ear to a
engine on the ready track and listen, he then went on to another engine,
and then another. He did this for several minutes when I walked over by
him he asked me if I had purchased more sound decoders. I told him no
and showed him where I had mounted the speaker for the sound module
located under the layout. He was quite impressed.

Tom

Great book! Thank you Jim.

73 de KT0T
Bob Schwartz
Modeling Waseca, MN in the '50s

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Wells" <enginears@...>
To: <LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: [LayoutSound] Re: who has the answers?


>
>
> Hey Steve and all,
>
> Thanks for the kind words.  While Steve is indeed a customer, he has
> also become a dear friend... so you shouldn't really believe any of
> what he says (even though its all true:)!
>
> This brings me to the reason for this email.  Someone asked who has the
> answers, and the simple answer is, the folks on this list!  I expect
> that an educated membership will make for a better group, so I am going
> to offer you all a little 'groupwarming present':).
<SNIP>
> We don't make any money on the bound manuals, but we do sell them so I
> will trust the membership to keep this URL within the group:
> http://www.fantasonics.com/manual.pdf
>
> I think this is worth the download and reading time, and it will get
> everyone up to speed so we can concentrate on the more esoteric,
> creative and fun aspects of layout sound... and your particular
> questions and projects.

<SNIP>
> Ok, enough preaching to the choir, go do your homework:)!  And for
> goodness sakes, have some fun with this!
>
> Sincerely,
> jim

Hey Steve,

Nice work, thanks for posting photos!  At first glance I couldn't
figure out why you stopped the ground cover in such a clearly clean
circle... then I saw the last photo:).  May I ask which scene this
speaker will serenade?  I'm wondering if you can see the lichen move...
like during an expolsion:). Did you use spray adheasive or dilute glue
to anchor the materials?

Anyway, good job,
jim

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sjarmanII@a...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Want to first thank Jim for starting the group.
>
> We all know that speaker concealment is critical to maintaining the
> illusion.  I've posted a couple of photos in the photos section within
> the file 'sdj'.  They show how I used the grills from the computer
> speakers I scavenged to conceal the placement of them on the layout.
>
> These will be worked into the surrounding scenery.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve

Hey Stephen,

I agree entirely, the PBL (PFM:) system is still the best ever! Besides
the full bandwidth audio, it has the tactile ability to 'play' the
whistle(s)... I love that. Good for you to take a stand. BTW, there are
very real reasons that we all need the top end in scale, more about
that later... but everything your ears are telling you is dead on.

The newer onboard systems will go a long way to solving the problems
you describe, and I think there are some other evolution that may help
some too. I will suggest that there will be some lively threads here
that will dissect the nature of what should come next in onboard
sound... the layout sound scene is coming along nicely though:).

I'd like to hear more about that 'experimentation' you've done on your
locos!
          jim

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Amitrano" <samitrano@s...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jim and All,
>
>   First Jim, thanks for starting this list.  My name is Steve
> Amitrano from San Antonio, Texas.  I model the Chili Line in Sn 3
> circa late 1930's to late 1940's as if the line did not shut down.
> One main point that made me switch to Sn 3 was the fidelity of sound
> PBL produces.  This is as far as I am concerned the best there is in
> the DC world.  I would like to have independent train control with
> DCC but to my ears the trade off of the loss of high end quality
> sound verse independent train control is not worth it at this time.
> To me sound and smooth operations go hand-in-hand.
>
>   I have done a lot of experimentation to get the best sound out of
> my system and have come up with a process that will increase sound
> fidelity but also increase performance of your engines especially
> brass locomotives.
>
>    I am hoping that there will be a future sound DCC system that
> meets or surpasses what I have now.  Until that time comes I am very
> happy with my PBL Foreground Sound System.  Pictures of my layout can
> be found on the Oklahoma Narrow Guage web site, we lived in Oklahoma
> before coming to SA 18 months ago.  The site is:  www.okng.org.
>
>        Looking forward in hearing form you all,
>
>             Steve Amitrano

Hey Jim,

Wowie zowie!  That's the first time I've heard anyone suggest
headphones as an approach for a private pike... mono or stereo!  I'm
going to have to think about that for a bit, you really blind sided me
with that... and thanks:).  I do think it has merit, but for once, I'm
speechless:).  Lets see (hear?:) what others say... while I digest that
one.

Good question, Jim,
jim

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Hoover" <mikadokid@a...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> First I really do want to say thanks to Jim Wells for starting this
> group.
>
> I'm sure a lot of the people who have joined so soon after you
> announced the formation of the group have done so because of being
> familiar with your always-knowledgeable and helpful/insightful posts
> we have come to know through the other Yahoo!Groups you are a member
> of.  At least that was MY reaction (What? Jim W started a group on
> layout sound?  I'M THERE DUDE!)
>
> Working in N and Nn3, I have a lot of plans and ideas for things I
> want to do regarding layout sound which I don't have time to get into
> too much right now, but here is a snap-shot of some of the things I'd
> like to explore.  These are mostly oriented towards a sectional
> layout that would be taken to shows but many or even all of them
> could be done as well for a permanent home layout that sees
> visitors/open houses.  The types of things below would be in addition
> to on-board locomotive sound, and all fall under a philosophy I am
> adopting that I call "Model Railroad as Museum display".  I love the
> displays that museums have where a very life-like diorama is
> accompanied by recorded narration of some kind.  Model railroads
> should have these too :^)
>
> Things I want to explore
>
> 1.  Local industrial and environmental/nature sounds (pretty standard
> goal).  Any of these types of sounds could and occasionally should,
> pan between speakers for great 3-D effects.
>
> 2.  Informational listening stations (comprised of small headphones
> cut in half and held to one ear, wired separately so two people could
> listen at the same time) giving info about such things as; 1)the
> general model railroad layout itself, 2) prototype info on the area
> and/or railroad being modeled, 3) special features or things of
> particular interest to look for in the layout, 4) anything else you
> could think of that could be of interest to pass along to viewers of
> your layout.
>
> I wouldn't mean for such `stations' to replace the layout operator(s)
> interacting with viewers, but think of how much interesting
> information a viewer could quickly receive this way that wouldn't be
> practical for them to receive any other way.  How many questions are
> not being asked by viewers of your layout just because they don't
> know what to ask in the first place (particularly John Q non-model-
> railroader Public)?  And when a question IS asked, how much time do
> you have to give a good full answer like you would really like to be
> able to give sometimes?  Personally, I'd LOVE to have something that
> would let me know a little about the why's and where fore's of a
> layout I'm looking at, you could think of it as a talking magazine
> article about your layout.
>
> 3.  Musical listening stations.  Yes, MUSICAL listening stations on
> my model railroad (a full headphone this time).  Music is a powerful
> mood setter.  With the right music, I can affect your senses,
> changing your perception of your environmental surroundings to put
> you more into the scene, in both a physical sense, and probably more
> importantly, in a temporal sense.  I think music (at a background
> level that wouldn't obliterate the on-board loco sound) can connect
> you to the time period of the model in a way that merely `appropriate
> physical environmental sounds' can not hope to achieve.  I could get
> into more detail on this to be clearer about what I mean but I did
> say I wanted to be brief, so maybe more in the future.
>
> 4.  I just thought about this one tonight; purely nature environment
> listening stations (full headphones again).  Want to imply a certain
> season or specific type of weather?  As an example that I could apply
> to MY future layout, a stereo track of a distant thunderstorm with
> some light local breezes and light local rain fall when viewing
> scenery set in Colorado mountains and meadows, could just about make
> you shiver.  You could even have (I would have) a couple or three
> DIFFERENT types for someone to choose between, let them pick their
> own favorite.
>
> 5.  Lastly, depending on how much "production values" you wanted to
> build into your audio creations, you could combine any of the above
> to any degree you wanted.  Two-track audio recording, arranging, and
> mixing are pretty easy anymore with a home computer.
>
> Conclusion
>
> I'll probably have opportunity to put some of these into practice on
> a friends HOn3 sectional display layout before I'm at the point of
> needing to on my own layout but that's ok, there'll be practical
> results to report on that much sooner.
>
> Have fun,
> Jim Hoover

Hey Tom,

That's perfect, it is fun to see people interact with sound.  I like to watch
people hunt for a speaker... of course its more fun when they
can't find it:).  Its not a science but I try to keep any recurring voice, like
a cricket, from appearing from one place for too long... so
folks don't have a chance to 'point source' in on the speaker before it stops. 
But I like to bring a cricket in dry and a bit out of scale to
catch someone's attention, and give them the false sense that they might be able
to use it to hone in on the speaker location:).  And its
prototypical that a cricket might stop if you got too close.  Again, not a
science, but you have to puts crickets in, in some way, and a fun way
is as good as any.

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to see here... very clever approach. 
What did you use for the sound module?  I always thought a dummy
loco parked in a yard would be a good speaker location, no decoder... the sound
could come from anywhere.  Of course, you had more fun with it
under the table:)!  Its prototypical to have diesels idle endlessly, and a cheap
gag at that.

Here's an idea, how about a dummy (or old broken:) diesel with a tiny speaker as
a point source permanently parked (satellite, tweeter?), and a
bigger speaker under table (sub) for some bass response.  Then you can tell
everyone that you managed to miniaturize the Bose concept and you
have it patent pending:).  As long as you hide the wire, it should work.

One of our customers said he liked switching in the yard more with the sound of
a diesel idling continuously quietly in the background.  He used
a stationary speaker pair too, and bigger ones with some bottom end:).  Even
though the idling diesel was a different kind of diesel from his
decoder equipped engines, it added to the feeling of bottom end on all his
locos... cool.  I don't have DCC here, I only have one loco and it
doesn't run most of the time:).  But I do think there is merit to MU'ing a
stationary decoder driving a larger speaker for bass in (under) a
yard where diesels might do some regular switching... it should work at least as
well as the completely separate sound did.

Thanks for sharing that,
jim

Tom Massura wrote:

> Jim said:
> I'm not saying anything negative about the
> visual image that we all traditionally model in, but I do believe that
> the aural image can be just as much fun to model.
>
> Adding sound to your layout is fun to watch, yes I said watch. The RR
> club I belong too has our annual business meeting at a members home.
> This last year it was at my house. On my layout I have a fairly large
> engine terminal on the front edge of my layout. I have a sound module
> playing multiple engines idling with a random one revving up and then
> down again. Now the club members know I have a few engines with sound
> decoders mounted in them. I watched one club member put his ear to a
> engine on the ready track and listen, he then went on to another engine,
> and then another. He did this for several minutes when I walked over by
> him he asked me if I had purchased more sound decoders. I told him no
> and showed him where I had mounted the speaker for the sound module
> located under the layout. He was quite impressed.
>
> Tom
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
The Model Railroad Magic Website
http://www.fantasonics.com
Have fun!

Hi Jim,

Glad you liked the grill covers

To answer your questions.

1. They will most likely be used to serenade the the Saloon scene.

2. The materials were attached with a three different types of
adhesives: Spray adhesive, dilute white glue and hot glue
    This is how I did it.

After first painting the grill covers with inexpensive discount store
spray can paints, I carefully masked the opening for the cones with a
circle of paper. I then secured the thin layer of sand around the
speaker hole with a generous coat of spray adhesive.  This is
important because I knew I need to prevent any dilute glue from being
soaked into the fabric over the speaker hole. I wanted to ensure good
air flow through the material.

I attached the larger material with a small glob of hot glue and
built up the rest with sand and secured that with dilute white glue.

The lichen is held in place with judicious applications of hot glue.
It's easier to control where it is placed and doesn't run all over
like white glue.

Lastly, I haven't noticed the lichen moving.  I'll look again to see.

The covers have excellent air movement, thus maintaining the
integrity of the sound.
>
> Hey Steve,
>
> Nice work, thanks for posting photos!  At first glance I couldn't
> figure out why you stopped the ground cover in such a clearly clean
> circle... then I saw the last photo:).  May I ask which scene this
> speaker will serenade?  I'm wondering if you can see the lichen
move...
> like during an expolsion:). Did you use spray adheasive or dilute
glue
> to anchor the materials?
>
> Anyway, good job,
> jim
>
> --- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sjarmanII@a...> wrote:
> >

Hi Jim,

I think headphones would be a great idea for public shows where 'out of
scale' background noise competes with the illusion.  It makes perfect
sense.  Museums use the concept all the time.  I've seen more than one
museum diorama that was good until you put on the headphones, and then
suddenly you are transported right into the scene with no outside
distraction.  I think you've got something!

Steve

Hey Bob,

Welcome aboard, and share some of those ideas you mention with the rest of us:).
Either they will inspire us, or maybe we can help you with
them... but share them.  Yes, simple animation, and often simple sound can add a
lot to a layout.  Layouts shouldn't have to be mimes!  We work
so hard creating the visual image of our scenery, and the aural image is always
easier...
jim

bobmccormbo wrote:

> Jim, thanks for letting me join. I've a already read all the initial
> posts and checked out the pics for concealing PC speaker covers.What a
> great idea! Looking forward to seeing what others have done to
> incorporate sounds and bring life to what would otherwise be a static
> display. I've sampled some of the commercial products already, but
> found few that really fit my specific needs. I've been hooked on
> annimating small scenes since I saw a modular group doing the same on
> their layout many years ago (I think it was the Eastern Loggers from
> the Cincinnati area). Now I want to take this idea one step further
> with sounds. Looking forward to the future.....
>
> Bob McCormick in GA
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
The Model Railroad Magic Website
http://www.fantasonics.com
Have fun!

Hey Steve,

I 'think' that almost, just about, nearly qualifies as our very first 'how to'
article:)!  Really though, I think you are sharing some good
stuff there.  I especially like the concept of hiding an otherwise unmodified
factory enclosure.  I have a tendency to pull the speaker and
build some smaller enclosure to make mounting a bit easier, or just build the
small enclosure from scratch in the first place.  But what you've
done here would require only a simple hole in the bench and some edge
concealment after its in place.  I know you work in foam, so it might be a
bit easier for you to 'embed' an entire enclosure.  But your approach here would
make it easier for almost anyone with any scenery construction
materials/methods.  Good stuff!

Really very creative, Steve.  How come you never shared that with me before!?! 
With your permission, I'd like to put those photos up at the
website.

Steve wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> Glad you liked the grill covers
>
> To answer your questions.
>
> 1. They will most likely be used to serenade the the Saloon scene.
>
> 2. The materials were attached with a three different types of
> adhesives: Spray adhesive, dilute white glue and hot glue
>    This is how I did it.
>
> After first painting the grill covers with inexpensive discount store
> spray can paints, I carefully masked the opening for the cones with a
> circle of paper. I then secured the thin layer of sand around the
> speaker hole with a generous coat of spray adhesive.  This is
> important because I knew I need to prevent any dilute glue from being
> soaked into the fabric over the speaker hole. I wanted to ensure good
> air flow through the material.
>
> I attached the larger material with a small glob of hot glue and
> built up the rest with sand and secured that with dilute white glue.
>
> The lichen is held in place with judicious applications of hot glue.
> It's easier to control where it is placed and doesn't run all over
> like white glue.
>
> Lastly, I haven't noticed the lichen moving.  I'll look again to see.
>
> The covers have excellent air movement, thus maintaining the
> integrity of the sound.
> >
> > Hey Steve,
> >
> > Nice work, thanks for posting photos!  At first glance I couldn't
> > figure out why you stopped the ground cover in such a clearly clean
> > circle... then I saw the last photo:).  May I ask which scene this
> > speaker will serenade?  I'm wondering if you can see the lichen
> move...
> > like during an expolsion:). Did you use spray adheasive or dilute
> glue
> > to anchor the materials?
> >
> > Anyway, good job,
> > jim
> >
> > --- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sjarmanII@a...> wrote:
> > >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
The Model Railroad Magic Website
http://www.fantasonics.com
Have fun!

<he he he>  Jim rendered speechless... that's a first!

Only days old and we're already getting some great ideas!


Sent from my Compaq TabletPC
=======================

Chris Shinn
Layout Sound List Co-moderator
Winnipeg, Canada


-----Original Message-----
From: LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com [mailto:LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Wells
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:37 AM
To: LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LayoutSound] Re: An intro, and directions I want to pursue



Hey Jim,

Wowie zowie!  That's the first time I've heard anyone suggest headphones as
an approach for a private pike... mono or stereo!  I'm going to have to
think about that for a bit, you really blind sided me with that... and
thanks:).  I do think it has merit, but for once, I'm speechless:).  Lets
see (hear?:) what others say... while I digest that one.

Good question, Jim,
jim

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.13 - Release Date: 4/16/2005

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <sjarmanII@a...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> I think headphones would be a great idea for public shows
where 'out of scale' background noise competes with the illusion.  It
makes perfect sense. <

Hi Steve,

Yep, you definitely "get it", and understand what I'm after.

Background noise-blocking is an important advantage that I meant to
make mention of, but forgot to in my haste.  Noise pollution is
definitely a serious factor at shows.

First a sidebar, then some more on headphones; I just had another
thought regarding headphones and future layout sound systems and
using them at train shows.  When the SurroundTraxx system comes to
market, I see no reason that a headphone couldn't be connected to two
of the multiple speaker outputs of the system.  Locate the headphone
roughly in the middle between where the speakers in the layout are
located, and a viewer at a show would have a great stage for high
quality sound as the locomotive sounds are panned to, through, and
away from those two speakers.  It would just be an interesting way to
get rid of a lot of the "show" noise and should also improve the `low
end' frequency reproduction without `booming out' the entire
auditorium from a single layout's subwoofer.  But it might not do
quite as well at conveying a feeling of the source of the sound (the
train) moving across the scene as the in-layout speakers would.  Just
have to put that on the list of things to try out in the future.
(sidebar done)

Here are my thoughts on the headphones themselves, plus a
recommendation for a particular (and inexpensive) headphone that I
can HIGHLY recommend (and I'm very picky about my sound quality).

Any headphone (except `ear buds') would work for the cut-in-half
phone that a purely 'informational' listening station would require,
so any inexpensive mini headphone would work fine for a mono
listening unit for holding to your ear (I picture Gary Owens from the
TV show "Laugh In").  But a "mini" stereo headphone is not what I'd
want for any other type of station since they wouldn't be good at
blocking external noise and generally don't have the good low-end
frequency response I want.  I want to use a `full-ear' type of
headphone (is that the proper term?) that surrounds the ear so
outside noise would be reasonably reduced and base response improved.

Here is my recommendation for a really great all-around full-ear
headphone.  I picked some of these up back in December 2003 after
reading a review and looking at their specs.  After hearing one in
person after receiving them, I should have gone back and gotten more
since they were on sale at such a great price at the time (I got 7 of
them at $4.49 each, almost criminal for how good they are, more on
that in a moment).  But they are still available and I still consider
them a great deal even at their current price of $12.95, or $12.50
each for 2, or $12.00 each for 5 or more.  Maybe they will go on sale
again some time.

There may be other very good inexpensive headphones out there but I
haven't bothered to investigate after having found this model, that
is how much I like them.

Here is a direct link to where I got mine, from "The Electronic
Goldmine".

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?
number=G13112&variation=&aitem=2&mitem=8

If that link wraps to more than one line, here is a shorter link,
then click on the headphone called "Labtec Stereo Headphones & Radio"
to get a much better picture and a good text description (toss the
included `radio' in the garbage).

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1057

Ok, the reasons I like these so much are (no particular order);

1.  Big enough ear cushion to cover your ear and block outside sound,
but still small enough to be considered `compact', and not take up
much room.  Cushions are an oval of approx 3.5" by 2.75".

2.  Very comfortable to wear, even for extended periods, because of
very light weight, soft ear cushions, and a good working `universal
fit' headband that doesn't put too much pressure on your ears or head.

3.  Very good frequency response, base reproduction is very good.
Sound Pressure Level output is very good so it doesn't take a large
signal to drive the volume to usable levels.  This is a particularly
good thing because it can allow you to keep a good signal-to-noise
ratio when you play back your layout sounds.  By that I mean you
would still be able to hear the softer sounds in your audio track,
without having to turn up the playback volume to a point where you
might start hearing background hiss from the amplifier.  You could
also call this "good dynamic range" I suppose.

4.  Furthering on the frequency response and dynamic range, these
headphones do surprisingly well in handling a wide frequency content
even when driven at high volume.  I run my computer audio through a
10-band graphic equalizer and even when I add significant bass boost,
these headphones handle it pretty darn well even at fairly high
volumes (yes, I definitely do jam-out from time to time).

When I first bought these headphones, I was just looking for
something cheep for use on the layout that could play back an info
tape and block out some of the show noise while doing it, but it
turns out that I use these headphones now as my primary listening
headphones for music and anything else, that's how satisfied I am
with them.

I'm really looking forward to trying to make a layout that is much
more interactive with the viewing public at shows than they have
traditionally been in the past.  The extended use of sound and things
like `listening stations' will be one fun way to do this.  Then there
are other things I'm slowly working on like on-train video cameras.
I've played around with these some, and I've got some ideas and
equipment collected together that might allow me to build a more
advanced train cam than what is out there now, one that would allow
the camera to rotate and pitch so as to be able to `look around' as
its going down the track. It could be controlled either by me the
engineer, or by the public.  THAT would get the kids hooked for
sure ;^)  Its just a matter of time, the technology already exists.

Have fun everyone,
Jim Hoover

Hey Jim,

Thanks for opeing the door and starting up this group. My long term
goal is to integrate Digitrax Transponding with a believable
under-layout sound system. Haven't even starting researching yet, but
in my mind it certainly seems feasible. Thanks again!

Gavin Payne
Columbus, IN

Hey Gavin,

Perhaps you already know, but the SurroundTraxx system does exactly
what you describe.  It uses transponding, and direction and speed info
of the loco to calculate cross fades between six speakers.  Its a good
idea, and well underway.  The trick is to do a little ballet between
block locations, train positions, and listening positions:).  Are you
familiar with that system?

Its slated to have separate volume, EQ and delay/reverb settings for
each of the six zones, and there will be a number of background
'SoundScapes' that can be assigned to each zone as well.  It sould be
pretty trick:).

And if you do already know about that system, what are thinking of
doing differently?  I always like to hear creative thinking:)... and
this the place to share it.  Really, would you do anything differently?
Inquiring ears want to know:)...
jim

--- In LayoutSound@yahoogroups.com, "oscarandmaggie" <gavin@q...>
wrote:
>
>
> Hey Jim,
>
> Thanks for opeing the door and starting up this group. My long term
> goal is to integrate Digitrax Transponding with a believable
> under-layout sound system. Haven't even starting researching yet, but
> in my mind it certainly seems feasible. Thanks again!
>
> Gavin Payne
> Columbus, IN

The soundtraxx folks demoed this a few years back, but I don't know
what happened-- maybe it ended up held up just like their other
decoders.

-Dave

On Apr 16, 2005, at 4:00 PM, oscarandmaggie wrote:

> Hey Jim,
>
> Thanks for opeing the door and starting up this group. My long term
> goal is to integrate Digitrax Transponding with a believable
> under-layout sound system. Haven't even starting researching yet, but
> in my mind it certainly seems feasible. Thanks again!
>
> Gavin Payne
> Columbus, IN
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]