Hello Dan Stevens,
"However it is also commonly taught that the sinner must then exercise that gift
of faith in order to receive the benefits of salvation (regeneration,
forgiveness of sins, etc)."" you'll hear faith described as an instrument, one
that God "gifts" to the sinner, so that the sinner can then use that instrument
to gain access to the benefits of Christ's atoning work."

Boy, are you right about that. Most churches unfortunately teach in that vein,
but I do not believe it, nor does my church teach that. In fact anyone with
those views would never be allowed into the membership of our church.

"I don't know of any church denomination that teaches that the entirely of
salvation (faith, regeneration, forgiveness of sins, etc) are all done
sovereignly by God independent of the sinners action or response, and that the
sinner has no active part whatsoever in the completion of salvation. "

My church teaches exactly that! I've always considered it basic a Christian
belief.

David Widony



--- In Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com, "dan_1peter5_5to11" <bible_calendar@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Louis is correct, it is a subtle point. Virtually all who embrace
> Calvinism agree faith is a 100% free and unmerited gift of God based
> solely on God's sovereign election before the world began. However it
> is also commonly taught that the sinner must then exercise that gift of
> faith in order to receive the benefits of salvation (regeneration,
> forgiveness of sins, etc). Thus, salvation is not complete by God's
> action but by man's action (i.e., use of the "gift"). And even if one
> agrees that the sinners exercise of the gift of faith is done
> irresistibly, that still doesn't change the fact that the sinner must do
> something in order to finally secure the benefits of salvation. For
> this reason you'll hear faith described as an instrument, one that God
> "gifts" to the sinner, so that the sinner can then use that instrument
> to gain access to the benefits of Christ's atoning work. I don't know
> of any church denomintion that teaches that the entirely of salvation
> (faith, regeneration, forgiveness of sins, etc) are all done sovereignly
> by God independant of the sinners action or response, and that the
> sinner has no active part whatsoever in the completion of salvation.
>
> Dan Stevens
>
>
> --- In Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com, Louis Erasmus <ras.elect@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for responding back David.
> > *"Saving faith is 100% a gift of Gods grace to those he saves. We
> don't have
> > any faith until God gives it to us. People do not cooperate with God
> to save
> > themselves."*
> >
> > I don't want to get too technical here, but just wanted to share with
> you
> > that "saving faith" is actually not our faith/work. The Faith that
> justifies
> > or saves is the Faithful work Christ had to do in order to save the
> elect.
> > We don't know how God draws a person and even if a person begins to
> display
> > faith, that can never be taken or seen as an instrument God works
> through to
> > save. Most translations of the Bible have corrupted the "Faith of
> Christ" by
> > mistranslating many verses. Churches have taken passages which
> actually
> > speaks about the result or fruit of the Spirit to mean that we have to
> meet
> > certain conditions to become saved. One good example is Acts 16:30-31.
> Here
> > faith is not the condition but the result or work that will be seen in
> > someone life who is already saved. The shall be saved simply refers to
> the
> > fact believers are safe with Christ and their salvation will be
> completed at
> > the end. They are not appointed to wrath.
> >
> > �And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be
> saved? And they
> > said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and
> thy
> > house.� *(Acts 16:30-31 AV)*
> >
> > *1 John 3:23* And this is his commandment, That we should believe on
> the
> > name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us
> > commandment.
> >
> > �Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work
> the works of
> > God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that
> ye
> > believe on him whom he hath sent.� *(John 6:28-29 AV)*
> >
> > �But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the
> breastplate of
> > faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath
> not
> > appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus
> Christ, Who
> > died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together
> with
> > him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another,
> even as
> > also ye do.� *(1 Thessalonians 5:8-11 AV)*
> >
> >
> > Louis Erasmus
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 4:11 PM, davidwidony1 dtw1@ wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Louis
> > >
> > >
> > > "You mentioned your church does not believe in a free-will gospel.
> Do you
> > > believe our faith is an instrument God uses to save. In other words,
> do you
> > > believe God gives us faith and then works through that faith to save
> us?"
> > > For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
> [it
> > > is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
> Eph2:8-9
> > > Saving faith is 100% a gift of Gods grace to those he saves. We
> don't have
> > > any faith until God gives it to us. People do not cooperate with God
> to save
> > > themselves.
> > >
> > > David Widony
> > >
> > > --- In Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com <Latter_Rain%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Louis
> > > Erasmus ras.elect@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi David,
> > > > You mentioned your church does not believe in a free-will gospel.
> Do you
> > > > believe our faith is an instrument God uses to save. In other
> words, do
> > > you
> > > > believe God gives us faith and then works through that faith to
> save us?
> > > > Many churches today say they believe in grace alone, but on closer
> > > > inspection some works will always be seen. So, we either have a
> works
> > > > man-made gospel or a grace gospel, no in-betweens. The problem is
> that
> > > even
> > > > if we could find a church that is still reasonably accurate to the
> Bible,
> > > > it's pointless trying to search for the most accurate one. The
> fact is
> > > > all churches, no exceptions, are under God's wrath. God's true
> children
> > > have
> > > > been seeing this clearly for many years through the Bible. The
> important
> > > > question you want to ask yourself is why are you still in a church
> when
> > > God
> > > > is speaking so clearly through His Word about this Judgment.
> > > >
> > > > *Romans 11:6* And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works:
> otherwise
> > > > grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no
> more
> > > grace:
> > > > otherwise work is no more work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Louis Erasmus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:49 AM, davidwidony1 dtw1@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Louis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your response. You wrote "God's children hear His
> voice
> > > through
> > > > > His Word alone. This is one of the common denominators between
> true
> > > > > believers." I certainly agree with you on that.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and
> [is]
> > > > > profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
> instruction
> > > in
> > > > > righteousness:
> > > > >
> > > > > 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished
> unto
> > > all
> > > > > good works.
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact I think we agree on more things than we disagree on. I
> agree a
> > > > > believer should depart an apostate church it's just that I'm
> trying to
> > > > > understand where my church is in error. Other than you say my
> church is
> > > > > apostate do you disagree with anything else in my post? Was
> there
> > > anything
> > > > > with our churches practices or with my abbreviated statement of
> faith
> > > that
> > > > > was not Biblical?
> > > > >
> > > > > David Widony
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com
> <Latter_Rain%40yahoogroups.com><Latter_Rain%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>, Louis
> > >
> > > > > Erasmus <ras.elect@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi David,
> > > > > > God's children hear His voice through His Word alone. This is
> one of
> > > > > > the common denominators between true believers. Do you know
> that God
> > > has
> > > > > > been teaching for many years that all churches are under
> Judgment? No
> > > > > > exceptions. Do you also know that God has commanded His
> children to
> > > > > depart
> > > > > > from their churches? He has written this information in a
> veiled way
> > > so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > only they would understand once it's revealed to them. There
> is a
> > > famine
> > > > > of
> > > > > > hearing in all the churches. No matter if the Bible is still
> used;
> > > God is
> > > > > no
> > > > > > longer using the churches to represent His kingdom on this
> earth. Our
> > > > > number
> > > > > > one task is to obey Him, no matter what He expects of us. He
> always
> > > knows
> > > > > > what's best for us. The churches are being assaulted by Satan
> and God
> > > > > wants
> > > > > > us out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
> spoken of
> > > by
> > > > > > Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth,
> let him
> > > > > > understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the
> > > > > > mountains:" *(Matthew
> > > > > > 24:15-16 AV)*
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > *
> > > > > > *Amos 8:11* Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I
> will
> > > send a
> > > > > > famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for
> water,
> > > but of
> > > > > > hearing the words of the LORD:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Revelation 18:4* And I heard another voice from heaven,
> saying, Come
> > > out
> > > > > of
> > > > > > her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that
> ye
> > > receive
> > > > > > not of her plagues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Louis Erasmus
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 10:23 AM, davidwidony1 <dtw1@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello all,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I hate to be a fly in the ointment but I have a very serious
> > > question.
> > > > > Why
> > > > > > > do you folks and Harold Camping continually misstate (dare I
> say
> > > fib
> > > > > about)
> > > > > > > about what my church teaches. I attend a Reformed Baptist
> church
> > > > > (Charles
> > > > > > > Spurgeon’s denomination) and we do not believe in
> free will
> > > > > salvation, nor
> > > > > > > do we trust in our Confession of Faith to save us, nor
> baptism, nor
> > > the
> > > > > > > Lord’s supper. Nothing saves us other than the
> gracious will and
> > > > > power of
> > > > > > > God thru Christ my Savior. The teaching at my church is
> verse by
> > > verse,
> > > > > > > through both old and new testament. My church practices
> church
> > > > > discipline
> > > > > > > (this past Lord’s Day an unrepentant fornicator was
> > > excommunicated).
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > music is strictly hymns and Psalms. There are no women in
> > > authority. We
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > a plurality of elders. The burning desire of Trinity
> Reformed
> > > Baptist
> > > > > Church
> > > > > > > of La Mirada, Ca. (Please, I’m not advertising the
> church it’s
> > > just
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > I want it understood that I am limiting my comments to this
> > > specific
> > > > > church)
> > > > > > > is to be a BIBLICALLY based church. I have been blessed with
> 20
> > > years
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > good teaching.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I believe that all Scripture is the inspired, inerrant word
> of God
> > > and
> > > > > > > Christ is the incarnate Deity. I believe in the co-equality
> and
> > > > > > > co-eternality of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I have been
> born
> > > again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is nothing more important to me in this life than
> Christ and
> > > the
> > > > > > > salvation He gives to the elect, so if I, or my church, am
> in error
> > > I
> > > > > plead
> > > > > > > with you to tell me where and why.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > David Widony
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>