--- In Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com, "Darrell" <darbet@...> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> Re: Mr. Gillespie and Mr. Lockridge made some very good points about Islam
> using Scripture. I agree, indeed they are an off-shoot, if you will, of
> Christianity.
>
> What scriptures show that Islam was a off-shoot of the Christian church?
>
> Fear God and give glory to Him,
> Darrell Lockridge

Darryl, do you really think that that is a fair question, since you blocked my posting that would have demonstrated, in detail, precisely how we can know that? Are you going to allow me, now, to present those verses? I will wait for your reply, rather than have you block my posting again without letting the group know that you did that. I think that you at least owe the group the statement that, yes, you have blocked my posting that did provide those verses and that argument. I won't try to post the verses that demonstrate the point unless I first have your go-ahead, in a posting to the group.

Don't you hear yourself, Darryl? You are sounding protective of a doctrine that you aren't going to allow to be assailed. You are sounding like Thomas Golda after we crossed the line that he had drawn for himself, and had taken away his precious doctrine of eternal torment for sinners. No matter how much any of us showed him that he was wrong, he refused to accept the fact that the Bible was correcting us and that that doctrine was not biblical. It was tragic to see the drama take place, to lose a man whom we thought was a true-believer, a brother. Wake up, Darrell. I may be wrong, but you are beginning to act like Thomas Golda here, as far as I can tell. Of course, it could be me that is playing the part of dear Thomas and not you. Thomas could just not see what was going on. It was so sad, and is so sad now.

Don't you see, I am not trying to attack you? I have had great respect for you, and have asserted your wisdom in your decisions. This has become a personal matter, though. You have blocked me for what I believe are personal reasons, not ones of proper restraint of a wild and dangerous, heretical writer. Please, reassess your own actions in this matter, and your feelings. I don't care what you decide, though I will miss being to participate fully here. This group has been a vital life-line in these post-church years.

I deserve a decent response, treating me as a person that you know well enough to write to. I'm not a monster, nor someone so strange to you that you should dismiss me without serious thought and interaction.

Too boorish for my own good, too up-front with my own weaknesses, and still hoping for salvation,

/Larry Gillespie

> ________________________________________
> From: Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of mark bertling
> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 2:31 PM
> To: Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics (Larry)
>
>
>
>
> I just caught up on this thread last night and I found it very interesting.
> Mr. Gillespie and Mr. Lockridge made some very good points about Islam using
> Scripture. I agree, indeed they are an off-shoot, if you will, of
> Christianity. By the way Larry my friend, I hope you are doing well, I
> often find myself thinking of you. A while back I believe the Lord may have
> used you to reach myself, causing me to cry out to Him in a way I admittedly
> had lost.
>
> Thank you Allison for posting the tie to Mr. Camping's thoughts on this, I
> look forward to seeing this.
>
> Darrell, I have always wondered about the questions I am about to ask. Does
> South Africa have a strong Family Radio signal, and do you find many Family
> Radio listeners there? Also, do you find many folks there who know the Lord
> is returning in 2011? And lastly, do you have any knowledge of the
> surrounding nations of South Africa regarding the same questions?
>
> I also have a general question for the group concerning Mr. Hendrick Van
> Dyke.
>
> My wife and I have always loved to listen as he reads Scripture on Family
> Radio. Years ago, he also did an excellent study archived by Family Radio
> entitled "Basic Bible Study." We have shared this basic study with many
> friends for a while now. Our friends have always commented positively on
> this study he did.
>
> I know the Lord called him several years ago, but my question is this.......
>
> Does anyone know if there are other studies done by Mr. Van Dyke during his
> life that may be accessible? If there are, my wife and I would be very
> grateful to learn where/what they might be.
>
> May the Lord continue to bless and give encouragement to all in the group.
>
> Mark & Tana Bertling
>
>
>
> - On Mon, 7/6/09, Allison Warden <wardenallison@...> wrote:
>
> From: Allison Warden <wardenallison@...>
> Subject: RE: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics (Larry)
> To: Latter_Rain@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 2:01 PM
> Hi Darrell & Larry & LR,
>
> I have been reading this thread with interest as my time allows during the
> past week, and I have found it very interesting. Of course, I have a
> tendency to fact check, as the old saying is "don't believe every thing you
> hear." So I went looking on Wikipedia for what the Muslims say about the
> origin of their religion, and then checked out the Dynamic Bible Query on
> the Family Radio website. I found very interesting answers in the video
> responses Mr. Camping gives, which can be accessed here:
> http://fsiforms. familyradio. org/dbqf/ forum_122105i. html
> http://fsiforms. familyradio. org/dbqf/ forum_091707a. html
>
> I am not much of a history or Bible scholar, I am a college drop out, and
> most of my knowledge comes from reading about topics as I take an interest
> in them, very autodidactic in fashion, so I am not really looking to jump in
> the middle here, other than to
> point to some information that might be helpful in regards to Larry's
> position.
> It seems like Mr. Camping understands the stance that Larry is trying to get
> across; to me it seems logical in the sense that all these religions have
> their origins in part from the Bible. That's about all I can say there, and
> I thought since I had found these videos I'd share them if it helps with the
> topic at all. I am a bit of a book nerd and I know how it is sometimes when
> you are trying hard to get a point across, and you get a little passionate
> and vehement. (People tend think I am angry or I always hear "Alright, calm
> down Allison!" And I tell 'em, I not mad I am just being excitable.) So, it
> reminds me of Acts 26:3 when Paul says to King Agrippa, "wherefore I beseech
> thee to hear me patiently." Or in 1 Thessalonians 5:14 "Now we exhort you,
> brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the
> weak, be patient toward all men." I just thought I would interject that
> since sometimes it is hard to be patient or repeat a viewpoint, but I think
> everyone on here sure seems like they are in earnest wishing to serve the
> Lord, and bring forth Biblical topics of relevance for the help of their
> brother and for the glory of God. I like to try and remember that when I
> get all fired up.
>
> Thanks for the interesting discussions guys!
>
> Blessings,
> Allison Warden
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 7/6/09, Darrell <darbet@tks-net. com> wrote:
>
> From: Darrell <darbet@tks-net. com>
> Subject: RE: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics (Larry)
> To: Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 3:43 PM
> Larry,
>
> Re: Are you sure that it isn't merely that I managed to get under your skin
> and to rub you personally the wrong way, Darrell?
> After 20 plus year in the military, its very difficult to get under my skin.
> What is clear though is that you're not focusing this discussion on the
> Bible. We will not tolerate this sort of behavior on the LR.
>
> Fear God and give glory to Him,
> Darrell Lockridge
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Latter_ Rain@yahoogroups .com]
> On Behalf Of Larry Gillespie
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 4:53 PM
> To: Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics (Darryl)
> --- In Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com, "Darrell" <darbet@> wrote:
> >
> > Larry,
> >
> > Re: We must *understand* that God looks at these folks as Christian church
> > members just like all of the rest, unbelievers who claim to *be*
> believers,
> > and who offer false doctrines to the world while claiming to be
> Christians.
> >
> > This understanding of yours is not found in the Bible. The Christian
> church
> > has nothing to do with Islam. The Christian church was a divine
> institution
> > established by God to evangelize the world for 1955 years. During that
> > time, the Holy Spirit was in the midst to signify that God was using the
> > believers in the church to evangelize the world. During the church age,
> God
> > established elders and deacons to rule over the elect. These spiritual
> > rulers were also given authority to administer the Lord's supper as well
> as
> > to practice water baptism. On 21 May 1988, God stripped the church of its
> > authority by removing the Holy Spirit from the midst (2 Thess 2:3-7). All
> > of these things have absolutely nothing to do with Islam, Mohammed or any
> > mosque.
> >
> > 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
> > come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be
> > revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above
> all
> > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in
> the
> > temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that,
> when
> > I was yet with you, I told you these things?6 And now ye know what
> > withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.7 For the mystery of
> > iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be
> > taken out of the way.
> >
> > Larry, I'm sorry to say but your idea is not found anywhere in the Bible.
> > Your are basically using history books to create doctrine. That's a very
> > dangerous road to be on.
>
> So, you have *finally* said it, have you, Darrell? You've called me a son of
> Belial, figuratively. Well, maybe not -- you were careful not to actually
> call me one, but to imply I'm on that road. Of course, I never denied it. I
> just claim that I want *not* to be a son of Belial, when the final trump
> sounds.
>
> I don't see how you come up with your opinion, that I am trying to make
> doctrine from following the secular history books. Are you sure that it
> isn't merely that I managed to get under your skin and to rub you personally
> the wrong way, Darrell?
>
> What I'm saying in this thread is that, quite *apart* from the history
> books, you and most others are buying the modern propaganda about Moslems
> and Islam. You are acting like you don't know actual church history at all
> and that it does not matter what it may be. You aren't looking at the facts.
> No matter how much they have deviated in their doctrines, the Moslems
> started with and still *have* and claim to believe, the Bible, both Old and
> New Testaments. They are in the same exact boat as the Mormons.
>
> Now, you don't claim to be ignorant of the *history books* about the
> Mormons, do you? You know very well that they are a Christian church,
> however boldly disobedient, including adding a new book of scripture that
> they claim is holy and God-breathed. It seems, though, that if the Mormons
> had been here a few hundred years longer, and had started calling themselves
> exclusively the "Mormons" and no longer referred to themselves as the
> "Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day Saints", you would claim that, in
> fact, they are no longer a Christian body, though they still had the Bible
> and followed it (again, however, poorly).
>
> The Mormons believe the Bible, but they claim that their own later book is
> the authority over the Bible, it having come later. They look at it as tying
> down points of doctrine that they find nebulous in the Bible. They explain
> the Bible as being a single nail, and their Book of Mormon as being that
> second nail, in determining and tying down Bible doctrine -- they claim that
> it is only by the second nail that the entire construct cannot move. Their
> analogy is to nailing something to a table or a platform -- a single nail
> allows the thing nailed down to swivel about the nail. Two nails remove any
> movement.
>
> You very well know, from the *history books*, that the Mormons, despite
> their disobedience to much of the Bible, came during the Church Age, and
> they therefore had a candlestick, they were a legitimate Christian
> congregation. Therefore, they are part of the Christian world that is under
> judgment now..
>
> That's the same with Islam. They did the *exact* same thing as the Mormons.
> Plus, they, too, came to being *DURING* the Church Age, making them a
> legitimate Christian congregation. [Yes, this is something that we learn
> from the *history books*. Yes, they were a more major off-shoot than others
> (mostly because they were a different ethnic group in a different part of
> the world). Yes, they had wars with the Roman Catholic Church. So what? So
> did the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Baptists.] Therefore,
> since they still exist, they are, too, yet another bunch of fake believers,
> part of the churches of Christianity. You cannot deny it just because they
> came to exist over 1,000 years before those Mormons. They *STILL* have the
> Bible, Darrell. They still claim to believe it. That makes them Christians,
> in the fake sense, like *ALL* other churches. You may not want to believe
> that, because of the world's own view of them as being separate, or of their
> current view of being separate, themselves. Yet, the fact that they still
> have the Bible makes any other claim meaningless. I'm not making this up.
> I'm not deriving doctrine from history books. The Mormons exist, and they
> exist. They both have the Bible. That makes them part of the "churches",
> only more removed than most (but, again, still with the Bible, Darryl). They
> still have the whole Bible, Darryl. I'm not making anything up, but what I
> am is trying to get you to see the actual situation.
>
> God gave the Islamics the Bible, the *actual* Word of God, and they *STILL*
> have it, and they are therefore under judgment, as churches, because of it.
> Yet, because God promised that he would save Ishmaelites, many of these
> people will be coming *out* of their particular church affiliations in the
> next 2 years when almost nobody is going to come from any of the other
> churches any more.
>
> Still hoping to be saved,
> (The fact that I don't claim to be saved and to really, really know it for
> sure wouldn't have anything to do with why it seems you are reluctant to
> knowledge the truth of what I am saying in this thread, would it, Darryl? I
> wouldn't blame you -- who should believe anybody that isn't saved.)
>
> /Larry Gillespie
>
> ==========
>
> > Fear God and give glory to Him,
> > Darrell Lockridge
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com]
> On
> > Behalf Of Larry Gillespie
> > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 10:02 PM
> > To: Latter_Rain@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics (Darryl L., Chris
> > McCann)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Darrell,
> > [I also have some comments for Chris McCann below..]
> >
> > --- In Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com> yahoogroups.
> com,
> > "Darrell" <darbet@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Larry,
> > >
> > > As I stated before, we are not concerned about the history/practices of
> > > Islam. Our only concern is what the Bible says about Ishmael's
> generation
> > > (Isaiah 60). In this regard, we share the gospel in places where God is
> > > opening a "door of utterance". Now, I would agree that we should not
> allow
> > > teachers of Islam to instruct us--that would be a violation of 2 John
> > 1:10.
> > > It would also indicate that God is not opening a door.
> > >
> > > 2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,
> receive
> > > him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
> > >
> > > My message to Arabs is that Jesus is coming to judge the world on 21 May
> > > 2011. And if we are not saved by God's grace (which is through Christ's
> > > sacrifice) we will face the same judgment (annihilation) that came upon
> > the
> > > world in the days of Noah.
> > >
> > > Ge 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth
> > forty
> > > days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will
> I
> > > DESTROY from off the face of the earth.
> > >
> > > Lu 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the
> days
> > > of the Son of man.27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they
> > > were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and
> > the
> > > flood came, and DESTROYED them all.
> > >
> > > Fear God and give glory to Him,
> > > Darrell Lockridge
> >
> > I think we agree, but if I did not understand what you are trying to get
> > across, I would disagree with your statement that "we are not concerned
> > about the history/practices of Islam". I think we ought to be very
> concerned
> > about this, or at least cognizant of this. We must *understand* that God
> > looks at these folks as Christian church members just like all of the
> rest,
> > unbelievers who claim to *be* believres, and who offer false doctrines to
> > the world while claiming to be Christians. It is not important that the
> > Islamics have come up with their own preferred name and even forget that
> > they are actually a Christian sect. Yes, I would be very concerned about
> > this statement from you, had you not also said "I would agree that we
> should
> > not allow teachers of Islam to instruct us--that would be a violation of 2
> > John 1:10." That clarifies it that, yes, we agree that to dispute with
> them
> > would be wrong. You go on, however, to say "It would also indicate that
> God
> > is not opening a door." You are right. It does also imply that God is
> *not*
> > opening a door of utterance to the Islamic people as a group, being that
> > they *are* church members. As I said in my earlier post, though, God has
> > *also* indicated that He is, *specially* and very much due to their
> heritage
> > as sons of Ishmael [(whether literally or spiritually (via the sons of
> > Keturah's link to them)] deliberately making an exception to the general
> > closing of all doors of utterance to the churches. This *is* a Christian
> > church sect, as surely as any other, and is as fallen as the rest, as
> ruled
> > over by Satan as the rest. You can certainly see that there -- it seems to
> > be the most obvious one, in fact. Sin got to be the most obviously sinful
> > there, greater even than in the Roman Catholic denomination. It got the
> most
> > sinful in the very Christian church that happened to be the lone single
> > exception to the general condemnation upon all of them. Maybe Satan tried
> > his hardest in this one precisely because he knew that they would be made
> an
> > exception to the general judgment on the Christian church at the end of
> > time? Maybe he tried hardest to keep them from being cognizant of the
> actual
> > situation, helping them forget that they even were a Christian sect? Just
> > some thoughts there.
> >
> > So, I am satisfied that you and I are pretty much on the same ground here,
> > Darryl.
> >
> > The reason I have pushed on this one is because of how hard it is for
> people
> > to realize it. I speak for my own situation, particularly. I have been
> > buffaloed, very easily in the past, by our Western communication media's
> > propaganda, its message of "tolerance" of the wickedness of Islam. Our
> > world, especially the West, is in the midst of a crisis of accommodating
> the
> > surge in Islamic presence within it. Everyone is bending over backward not
> > to offend them, not to point out how horrible are their practices, how
> > wicked, especially as they vocally call all of the values of the West as
> > wicked and Satanic (they are correct in this, of course). We are being
> > indoctrinated into believing that one should not confront the horrors of
> > Islam. That is a powerful thing to try to buck. No, *we* who have heard
> the
> > full gospel during the Latter Rain have to confront them. We have to
> *love*
> > them enough to do this. We must tell them that they are following a
> > religious plan that does not satisfy their sin-debt to God. They simply
> > pretend not to have one. They pretend that they can somehow make up for it
> > by their great work of piety after the fact. We cannot allow them to
> > continue in that false thinking. We have to hit them hard with the truth.
> > Only God can break their pride, and He promises that He is going to do so,
> > in droves (!), but only with His true gospel, His full Word, properly
> > exegeted, and only with this particular church assembly. We cannot argue
> > with them, but just hit them with the Truth. Yes, there is a door of
> > utterance to the Islamics, but we have to hit them with the full truth,
> > first point of which is that they are a false church and are under
> judgment
> > as a *church* and yet God has made an exception in opening that particular
> > door of utterance to their particular church congregation.
> >
> > The reason I am harping on this is because of all the attempts to
> *dispute*
> > with them, doctrinally, giving some sort of respect to their own
> doctrines,
> > as we might dispute with Hindus. While it would be legitimate to do with
> > Hindus, since their religion is without light at all (they have had none
> of
> > the Word of God thus far), it would be very sinful for us to do this with
> > the Islamics, since they have *had*, the Word of God, and yet disobeyed.
> You
> > see the difference?
> >
> > By the way, are you listening Chris McCann? You have mentioned before, in
> > some of your teachings at E-Bible, that you viewed the Islamics as being
> of
> > a different religion and therefore it is okay, in your view, to dispute
> > doctrinally with them. You asked for correction in this matter if people
> > knew otherwise about their being a different religion altogether. That is
> > what prompted me bringing this up. You are now informed that they are
> *NOT*
> > a separate religion, not at all -- they might forget it themselves, but
> they
> > have the Word of God, as they had at the *beginning* of their split-off
> from
> > the rest of Christianity. They in fact *are* Christians (so-called, as
> with
> > all Christian churches today). You can't any longer in good conscience
> > dispute with Mr. Wesam, that horrid Moslem cleric who so very much loved
> to
> > shout insults at the gospel as part of those discussions with you. That
> was
> > *SO* hurtful to allow, and to hear. I'm not saying that Moslems who
> attended
> > the discussions weren't open to hearing the true gospel, and those of us
> who
> > contacted them individually through Instant Messaging may have been
> properly
> > exegeting with them, but the discussions themselves, as heard by people,
> > would not likely have done any of them any good, since it was a sinful
> > practice. Hey, I'm guilty of the same thing, though. I am only recently
> > obtaining clarity about how to approach the Moslems. I am only offering
> what
> > I have been learning as instruction. The fact is, though, these guys are
> > stealth "Christians" , and we have been making a terrible error in how we
> > approach them.
> >
> > Still hoping for salvation,
> >
> > /Larry Gillespie
> >
> > =========
> >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > >
> > > From: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com> yahoogroups.
> com
> > [mailto:Latter_ Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> yahoogroups. com]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Larry Gillespie
> > > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:10 PM
> > > To: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com> yahoogroups.
> com
> > > Subject: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics, like Mormons,
> > > Baptists, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, Darrell.
> > >
> > > --- In Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> yahoogroups. com
> > <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps..com> ,
> > > "Darrell" <darbet@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Larry,
> > > >
> > > > I think you're misunderstanding my application between the Greeks and
> > the
> > > > Arabs of our day. The fact is, true believers send forth the gospel as
> > God
> > > > opens a door of utterance (Col 4:3). In Acts 17, God provided this
> type
> > of
> > > > opportunity for Paul to teach the Greeks about the "unknown God."
> Also,
> > > > remember God sent Paul to the Greeks because the Jews would not hear.
> > > > Likewise, today, God is opening doors in the Middle East, China and
> > Africa
> > > > while the doors in Europe and America (Christian strong holds) are
> > > steadily
> > > > being closed. So, we don't have to worry about Islamic history or its
> > > > relationship to Christianity. Just go where ever God opens a door. The
> > > > Bible seems to indicate that God will open doors in nations where
> > > Ishmael's
> > > > descendants reside. I suspect that some of these people will become
> > saved
> > > > as they learn about the rapture of 21 May 2011. But if we try to share
> > > > these things with those in the Christian church , we will face much
> > > > opposition.
> > > >
> > > > Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a
> > > > door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also
> > in
> > > > bonds:
> > > >
> > > > Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an
> > > > altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye
> > > > ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
> > > >
> > > > One more point--most people in the world worship the "unknown God" in
> > > > ignorance. But today, we must make a distinction between those who are
> > > > "willingly ignorant" and those who have not had an opportunity to hear
> > > > truth. I suspect a good number of Arab Muslim worship God in
> ignorance.
> > > > But those in the church are willingly ignorant in the sense that they
> > > > despise the truth with regard to Christ's salvation as well as
> doctrines
> > > > related to the time-line of His return.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of
> > > > God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water
> and
> > > in
> > > > the water:
> > > >
> > > > 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one
> > > > day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one
> > day.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fear God and give glory to Him,
> > > > Darrell Lockridge
> > > >
> > >
> > > I understand perfectly what you are trying to say, Darrell. I respect
> your
> > > opinion greatly in matters Biblical. What I am doing here, saing here,
> is
> > > that I think you, me and others have had a great blind spot in the past
> > with
> > > respect to the Islamics of the world. I think we have all been
> monstrously
> > > wrong about how we have viewed Islam and their religious system of
> > beliefs,
> > > which have, as we have all known and ignored, Old Testament Judaism and
> > New
> > > Testament Christianity as its foundation point.
> > >
> > > Their entire set of doctrines have been drawn from the wrong attitudes
> and
> > > conclusions drawn from Christian scriptures. They have done what the
> > > Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons have done, but the difference between
> > these
> > > later abberations of Christian scriptures and Islam has has purely been
> > due
> > > to the amount of time since they rocketed off from the Christian
> scripture
> > > foundation with their own additional teachings. They are, truly, a rogue
> > > Christian movement, though they are 1,000 years beyond direct
> remembering
> > or
> > > caring about that.
> > >
> > > I am not arguing that your typical Moslem thinks much or cares much
> about
> > > the fact that they came from a distortion of Christianity. They have
> long
> > > ago given up asserting this fact -- they *want* to be their own
> religion,
> > > and their own movement. Yet, that is a mere pride assertion. The fact is
> > > unmistakable. They are rogue Christians.
> > >
> > > When we decide to ignore the fact that Islam has the concept of a single
> > God
> > > precisely because they learned it *DIRECTLY* from Christianity, we are
> > being
> > > dishonest with ourselves. God Himself gave the Islamic people that
> > > information, which is right and true information, and He gave it to them
> > > through their religious forbears' contact with the Word of God. There
> are
> > > many, many things that modern Moslems and Christians believe in common,
> > and
> > > it is *ALL* precisely because Islam *comes* from Christianity, not for
> any
> > > other reason. No one comes to spiritual truth of any amount apart from
> the
> > > Word of God. Did you ever wonder why the Moslems pray toward the East?
> > They
> > > get it from reading the Old Testament and seeing that God historically
> > used
> > > the compass direction of East as a picture of that which is right and
> true
> > > and holy.
> > >
> > > You see, we in the West, culturally if not personally directly descended
> > > from Europeans, have been conditioned by 1,000+ years of antagonism with
> > the
> > > people of the Middle East, and especially by the Crusades, to think of
> our
> > > group and their group as different and totally unrelated. It isn't true,
> > > though. Islam represented a challenge to Roman Catholic empirical rule,
> > > because the Arabs desired an ethnically Arab religious empire. Yet,
> their
> > > beliefs were not so radically different. Many of the more radical
> > > differences in the Moslem beliefs were developed over time as the Arabs
> > > asserted their desire to be separate from the European view. We must
> > ignore
> > > that.
> > >
> > > As different as you and I think that the modern Islamic beliefs are from
> > > what has been considered prevailing Christian beliefs, they are direct
> > > linear descendants from that Christian sect that started off *exactly*
> the
> > > same way as the Mormons.
> > >
> > > I don't think that God wants us to approach these people as *outsiders*
> to
> > > Christianity. They may want to be looked at this way, but they are being
> > > dishonest in this assertion. They truly are rogue Christians, and God
> has
> > > given them so much, they have so much knowledge of the truth that the
> > > others, such as Hindus or those who practice primitive ancestor worship
> or
> > > who worship "nature spirits", do not have, and God holds them
> responsible
> > > for that. They were blessed to have the Word of God, which they *STILL
> > HAVE*
> > > today, and they have done the most desecrating things to the God of
> those
> > > blessings. They are *more* guilty, not less, than those groups that have
> > > only begun to have contact with the Word of God in the past couple of
> > > hundred years (the peoples of the African regions who were first invaded
> > by
> > > and colonized by the European powers -- they also got contact with the
> > Word
> > > of God. They have had it for upwards of 200 years and more. Many, many
> > > millions are in churches today in Africa. They will be held responsible
> > for
> > > their contact with the Word of God.. Much more so will be the Islamic
> > peoples
> > > who have had the Word of God for over 1,000 years. This is precisely
> > because
> > > they *still* have it. How can you *NOT* consider the Islamics as
> anything
> > > but a group of rogue Christian denominations since that is the
> continual,
> > > over-riding fact of their entire religion?).
> > >
> > > You see what I mean? If they are, truly Christians (whether they will
> > admit
> > > it or not), they *are* Christians. Mormons are already beginning to
> refer
> > to
> > > themselves more as Mormons than as Christians. What would a few hundred
> > > years more of separation from the main stream do? Probably the same
> thing
> > as
> > > has happened to the Islamics, I think. They become prideful and want to
> be
> > a
> > > separate group, a religion in their own right. It is not, however, true.
> > > They are nothing but rogue Christians. We need to drop any respect for
> > their
> > > assertions that they are different and some sort of separate religion.
> > >
> > > I believe that that is what God wants us to do with respect to the
> > > Islamics/Moslems/ Mohammedans. We won't get the effect we want if we
> > pretend
> > > that they are "innocent ignorants" as were the ancient Greeks and as are
> > the
> > > modern Hindus. The Islamics are *NOT* open to our discussions any more
> > than
> > > are any other Christians who are in the churches and who are adherents
> to
> > > the view that their own church rulers are their proper teachers.
> Islamics
> > > are *VERY* disobedient to God, to the Word of God that they even now
> still
> > > have in their possession. They are *very* antagonistic to our views from
> > the
> > > Word of God. They want their Koran to have precedence over the Bible,
> just
> > > like the Mormons, but they themselves have developed their add-on "holy
> > > books(s)" while following, disobediently, the Word of God. I think that
> > God
> > > considers them as just another Christian church, and that no amount of
> our
> > > trying to argue with them as outsiders to our common teaching
> foundations
> > > will yield good fruit.
> > >
> > > Hey, I have felt that this was the "elephant in the living room" for a
> few
> > > years now. We need to quit teaching them as total neophytes (like we
> teach
> > > Hindus, for instance), and as people who have to come out of their
> > churches
> > > to hear the truth.
> > >
> > > Spiritually, we need to shake the dust off our sandals when they give us
> a
> > > lot of guff, and move on to those who *are* open to the gospel.
> Virtually
> > > all of the Islamics are totally closed to hearing the gospel. The fact
> > that
> > > God is going to make an exception and crack open this particular
> Christian
> > > church and allow a multitude of people to escape it is a shock. It will
> be
> > a
> > > total miracle. Yet, how we approach them has a lot to say about how
> honest
> > > we are with passages like 2nd John/verses 7-11. Let that reaction to
> their
> > > false doctrine be the obedient testimony to God's Word that breaks these
> > > people's hearts and tears away their pride. Let God be God -- our
> > testimony
> > > of the truth of the gospel is what God has promised to use to bring
> these
> > > people to where they need to be. God who will save whom He will save.
> Let
> > us
> > > make sure that we are giving right testimony before those deceivers and
> > > antichrists "who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" (2
> > John
> > > 1:7). Who can deny that that description fits Mohammedans so very well?
> > They
> > > have had contact with Christ's gospel, have tasted of the good Word of
> > God,
> > > and have rejected it. Whether or not they individually realized how
> close
> > > they were to Christianity and its beliefs, they grew up in the
> environment
> > > of the Word of God (however filtered and distorted). Respect that. They
> > > don't deserve to be given any slack. They are the tough opponents of the
> > > true gospel. If God is going to save them, it is through direct frontal
> > > assault, honestly given. Quit going along with their lie that they are a
> > > separate religion. They are *NOT*.
> > >
> > > I am in "take no prisoners" mode right now, I guess. Don't take their
> > guff,
> > > hit them between the eyes with the truth and let it work on them. Don't
> > > debate with them -- they are liars and deceivers, as are any that offer
> > > distorted and false doctrines arising from abuse of the Word of God.
> They
> > > are church members, purely and simply.
> > >
> > > That's my opinion. Take it or leave it, or attack it, as you choose.
> > >
> > > Hoping for salvation,
> > >
> > > /Larry Gillespie
> > >
> > > ==========
> > >
> > > >
> > > > _____
> > > >
> > > > From: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > yahoogroups. com <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > [mailto:Latter_ Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > yahoogroups. com <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com> ]
> > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Larry Gillespie
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 10:22 PM
> > > > To: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com> yahoogroups.
> com
> > <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > Subject: [LR] Re: Mohammedans are *Christian* heretics, like the
> Mormons
> > > > (and Baptists) are..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello Darrell.
> > > >
> > > > I am enjoying enjoying following this discussion of the historic use
> of
> > > the
> > > > term "Allah" (however pronounced) in the Old Testament, and of trying
> to
> > > get
> > > > a starting point "handle" on how to teach Mohammedans (the original
> name
> > > for
> > > > their religious sect) the word of God.
> > > >
> > > > I think we have to tread very carfully here. Yes, many of these folks
> > are
> > > > going go be hearing the true gospel and are going to be saved during
> > this,
> > > > the "last time" as the Bible calls it. They are emphasized as no other
> > > group
> > > > is regarding who will be saved among the "great multitude". Yet, if we
> > > think
> > > > we are going get any head-way by looking at them as analogous to the
> > > ancient
> > > > Greeks, who were utter, complete pagans and had not heard nor been in
> > > > contact with any part of the gospel before God, through Paul,
> addressed
> > > > them, we are misunderstandiing who these people, the followers of
> > > Mohammed,
> > > > really are.
> > > >
> > > > They are the first of the great heretical *Christian* groups to appear
> > in
> > > > the post-Apostolic era. There were others, but they were almost
> > completely
> > > > stamped out by the might of the early Roman Catholic church. This is
> the
> > > > first one that took such extreme root that it could not be eradicated
> by
> > > the
> > > > brutal means of rulers of the "Christian" Roman Empire. The fact is,
> > other
> > > > than for the fact they have been here a millennium-or- so longer,
> there
> > is
> > > no
> > > > difference between the Islamics and the Mormons -- *both* are
> Christian
> > > > sects, though most modern Islamics forget that fact and have certainly
> > > gone
> > > > far afield from most of the tenets that characterized it as such. Both
> > > claim
> > > > to believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. The followers of
> > Islam
> > > > have bastardized their own belief system to the extent that they
> > pooh-pooh
> > > > most of what the Bible actually teaches (mostly because they look at
> it
> > as
> > > a
> > > > competitive advantage for modern Jewish activists), but that does not
> > > change
> > > > the fact that, technically, they are part of the so-called Christian
> > > world.
> > > > They are exactly the type of heretical believers that the book of "2
> > Jonn"
> > > > was talking about. This book is what we should be using to guide how
> we
> > > > interact with the Mohammedans, not Paul's address to the Athenians in
> > Acts
> > > > 17. Here are the verses of 2 John that I am talking about.
> > > >
> > > > 2 JOHN 1:7-11:
> > > > 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that
> > > Jesus
> > > > Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
> > > > 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have
> > wrought,
> > > > but that we receive a full reward.
> > > > 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
> > hath
> > > > not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the
> > > Father
> > > > and the Son.
> > > > 10 ¶ If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive
> > him
> > > > not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
> > > > 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
> > > >
> > > > This is exactly the passage that instructs us how to deal with all of
> > the
> > > > so-Called Christians that teach a false gospel, whether they be
> > Jehovah's
> > > > Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, or, I assert, Mohammedans.
> > They
> > > > claim to believe the Bible, *PLUS* the Koran and other writings that
> > they
> > > > have decided are inspired. As with the other groups such as the
> Mormons,
> > > > they claim that their later books take precedence over the Bible and
> > > > "correct" it. It is no different, even if their own ethnic pride and
> > 1,000
> > > > years of struggle with *OTHER* Christian groups for hegemony makes
> them
> > > > harden themselves against the others, and to deemphasize the aspects
> of
> > > > their own religion which is in fact tied to the others. When you talk
> to
> > a
> > > > follower of Islam, you talk to a "Christian" (like any other professor
> > in
> > > > Christianity who is not a true believer), who is now too prideful to
> > admit
> > > > to it, due to hundreds of years of war over details. They are
> heretical
> > > > Christians. The Bible doesn't advocate that we treat them as any
> > different
> > > > than those of the so-called Christian fold who are telling lies about
> > > Jesus
> > > > and the true gospel. I think we have erred greatly if we treat them as
> > we
> > > > might the Hindus or as believers of some other
> > > > totally-non- Christian- influenced religions. I think we sin when we
> do
> > it.
> > > > They are not like the Greeks, or the Hindus. They are like the Mormons
> > > (and
> > > > as we know, the Mormons and the so-called main-line Christian
> > > denominations
> > > > are alike in their promulgation of false gospels). In other words, I
> am
> > > > asserting that the Islamics are actually members of the Christian
> world,
> > > and
> > > > collectively are as doomed as any other denomination. Yet, God,
> despite
> > > > this, is going to pull a LOT of them out of their own particular brand
> > of
> > > > Christian denomination (or group of denominations, really, since they
> > are
> > > > splintered up among themselves), quite unlike He is going to do with
> any
> > > of
> > > > the other so-called "Christian" groups (such as the Presbyterians or
> > Roman
> > > > Catholics or Baptists). There *are* going to be a lot of former
> > > Mohammedans
> > > > in the coming kingdom, percentage-wise and per-capita-wise a whole
> *lot*
> > > > more than there will be former Presbyterians and former Baptists. Yet,
> > > > treating them as Greeks is the wrong approach for us, I think, because
> > > they
> > > > are actually as Christian as the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses
> are.
> > > We
> > > > shame God, we sin, when we dispute with them over doctrines, because
> God
> > > > told us not to do that with those who did taught false Christian
> > doctrine.
> > > > We need to wake up to that, because, well, it's sin, and it's our
> pride
> > > > getting in the way, since we are thinking that those Islamics can't
> > > possibly
> > > > be like the Christian denominations with which we have become
> familiar.
> > > > Sure, they fought the Roman Catholics in the so-called "Crusades". So
> > > what?
> > > > The Roman Catholics fought the Baptists and the Lutherans, too. That
> > > didn't
> > > > make the Baptists non-Christians (though the Roman Catholics thought
> it
> > > > did). It didn't make *either* group right and good, either, of course.
> > It
> > > > has really been more of an ethnic war than a religious one all along,
> > the
> > > > one between the Europeans and the Arabs. The Arabs asserted their
> > > > differences precisely for ethnic pride and to be able to unify their
> own
> > > > ethnic group as part of an over-all plan to obtain a world empire.
> > That's
> > > > what Mohammed actually wanted. Yet, they never did stop asserting
> their
> > > > Christian-ness though they put forth an *additional* book that
> purported
> > > to
> > > > make all the difference (just like the Mormons). That makes them
> wicked,
> > > > just like all other men, and not truly following God, but neither were
> > the
> > > > Roman Catholics or the other so-called Christians that peopled the
> > world.
> > > > They were the first heretical Christian sect, and should be treated as
> > > such,
> > > > as teachers of false doctrine about Jesus, not like the ancient Greeks
> > or
> > > > modern Hindus, who are merely pagans.
> > > >
> > > > Now, make of that what you will. I've been feeling the need to point
> > this
> > > > out for a couple of years, ever since I found out that Chris McCann
> was
> > > > having his "Moslem-Christian Dialogue" sessions with that Islamic
> cleric
> > > > Wesam. It is a sin to so do, and God will not bless that activity. We
> > have
> > > > to call a heretic a heretic for starters, like we do with the Mormons,
> > > > Jehovah's Witnesses, or, yes, the Presbyterians or Baptists. *That* is
> > > > honesty, and that is the only way to carry forth the true gospel.
> > > >
> > > > Hoping for salvation,
> > > >
> > > > /Larry Gillespie
> > > >
> > > > ============ ========= ==
> > > >
> > > > --- In Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > yahoogroups. com,
> > > > "Darrell" <darbet@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The point of highlighting the name "Allah" is similar to Paul's
> > message
> > > > > about the "unknown" God (Acts 17:23). Paul surely recognized that
> the
> > > > > altar of this god was not meant for true worshippers. Still, it
> > provided
> > > a
> > > > > pretext for sharing truth with the Greeks. Likewise, usage of the
> word
> > > > > "Allah" has is not an attempt to validate Islam--it simply provides
> a
> > > > > pretext to share the true gospel with Arab speaking Muslims. Today,
> > many
> > > > > Muslims regard Christianity as a Western "crusaders" religion. But
> > they
> > > > > have forgotten that the Middle East was once a strong hold of the
> > > > Christian
> > > > > faith. So, by using the word Allah (which is in the Bible) we can
> > > > > demonstrate that the Bible does not belong to the West but is for
> all
> > > > > peoples of the world who know very little about the "unknown God".
> > > > >
> > > > > Ac 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an
> > > > > altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye
> > > > > ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Incidentally, last weekend I spoke with a large room of Muslims
> (with
> > > the
> > > > > moderator translating) who wanted to know why I believe 21 May 2011
> is
> > > the
> > > > > rapture. And as usual, I tell them that 21 May points to the day
> Noah
> > > > > entered the ark 7000 years ago. I also informed them that Noah was
> > saved
> > > > by
> > > > > grace not works. No one argued against these statements. Amazingly
> the
> > > > > Arabs Muslims have a strong reverence for the Old Testament so it's
> > > always
> > > > a
> > > > > good place to start when sharing the gospel. One gentlemen wanted to
> > > know
> > > > > if I believed Jesus paid for our sins by physically dying on the
> > cross.
> > > I
> > > > > responded No! Jesus paid for our sins before the foundation of the
> > > world.
> > > > > They have never heard these things before and they don't know how to
> > > > > respond. Perhaps God opened some of these new truths for Muslims.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fear God and give glory to Him,
> > > > > Darrell
> > > > >
> > > > > _____
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > yahoogroups. com
> > > > [mailto:Latter_ Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > yahoogroups. com]
> > > > On
> > > > > Behalf Of yaanas
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:52 PM
> > > > > To: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [LR] be diligent with "Allah"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Hebrew word Elohem <H 430> is used 244 times in the Bible to
> > denote
> > > > > false Gods.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gen 35:4 And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods <430>which
> > [were]
> > > > > in their hand, and [all their] earrings which [were] in their ears;
> > and
> > > > > Jacob hid them under the oak which [was] by Shechem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night,
> and
> > > > will
> > > > > smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;
> and
> > > > > against all the gods <430> of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am]
> > the
> > > > > LORD.
> > > > >
> > > > > In Greek it is the same. "Theos <2316> can be referring to the true
> > God
> > > > and
> > > > > to false gods. In English and in Arabic it is all the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > The verse below teaches that it is not the pronunciation of word
> that
> > > > > counts. It is what it means to you in your heart.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1Co 8: 5&6 For though there be that are called gods , <2316>.,
> whether
> > > in
> > > > > heaven or in earth, (as there be gods <2316>many, and lords many,
> But
> > to
> > > > us
> > > > > [there is but] one God <2316>, the Father, of whom [are] all things,
> > and
> > > > we
> > > > > in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we
> by
> > > > him.
> > > > >
> > > > > In Him by Him,
> > > > >
> > > > > Nasry Rizk
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > yahoogroups. com, "Stephen Clark" <sclark333@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sean,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have heard (but do not have the means to check it out) that the
> > > Arabic
> > > > > > word for love is not ever used in the Quran, the Muslim holy book.
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > > also heard that there are so many direct contradictions in the
> Quran
> > > > that
> > > > > > regarding whether they will go to paradise of hell is impossible
> to
> > > > know.
> > > > > > Even if they pray five times a day, etc., etc., they still
> typically
> > > > throw
> > > > > > up their hands and say: "The will of Allah, who can know it." All
> > the
> > > > > > emphasis is on what they do. There is no salvation plan and no
> > Savior.
> > > > > They
> > > > > > believe the only certain way to go to paradise is to die in a
> jihad.
> > > > Also
> > > > > > the status of women is extremely low and their eternal fate
> unclear
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > Quran. The Allah of the Quran is capricious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All of this is utterly opposed to and unlike the Bible. I think
> the
> > > > Allah
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the Quran is more like Satan than God. For these reasons I have
> been
> > > > very
> > > > > > disappointed when I have heard Mr. Camping endorse the name Allah
> > > > implying
> > > > > > that the Muslim's Allah is in any way related to the living God of
> > the
> > > > > > Bible. I understand that he wants to open a way for the gospel in
> > > Muslim
> > > > > > cultures, and this is the right thing to do, but it must be done
> > with
> > > no
> > > > > > compromises to their beliefs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve Clark
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > yahoogroups. com [mailto:Latter_ Rain@
> > > <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > > yahoogroups. com] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of areyouready2011
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:08 AM
> > > > > > To: Latter_Rain@ <mailto:Latter_ Rain%40yahoogrou ps.com>
> > > yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [LR] be diligent with "Allah"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jason makes a good point. Kind of like saying the Christ Mormons
> > > worship
> > > > > > is the same Christ in the Bible, when we know that isn't the case
> at
> > > > > > all. If we cater to Muslims by calling God Allah, aren't we
> playing
> > > into
> > > > > > their version of God? That would be like talking to Mormons about
> > > Jesus
> > > > > > when their Jesus is a false Christ altogether. This is dangerous
> > > ground
> > > > > > that i think we all should be very careful treading.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > May God give Family Radio and all of us wisdom,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sean Budde
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>