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  • Members: 1188
  • Category: Poland
  • Founded: Sep 18, 2001
  • Language: English
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#8077 From: "henrysokolowski" <hsokol@...>
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 4:04 am
Subject: Polish-Soviet War 		henrysokolowski
Send Email Send Email
  
More links: http://members.lycos.co.uk/jozefpilsudski/vistula.html
and http://www.polishconsulate.org.uk

The following link contains translations of Trotsky's writings.
Scroll down to his verbose propaganda on the War with Poland:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1920-mil/index.htm

There were many communist Poles who were on the side of the
Bolsheviks. For example, Feliks Dzierzynski was the son of a Polish
nobleman but adopted communism early on. He wanted Poland to become
a part of the Soviet Union and considered Polish self-determination
to be nothing more than a play by the bourgeoise capitalists to keep
the wealth in their hands.

Apparently, the communists (and varying degrees of socialists) just
wanted to break up the monopolies of the traditional rich and
landowning nobility in order to give peasants (whose lives were
generally quite miserable) a better life. Everything then went
horribly wrong.

Dzierzynski become the head of the Soviet Cheka (secret police)
which was a nasty organization.

Paraphrased From Norman Davies Book:

The Western Red Army itself contained a Polish Division, the Western
Division of Polish Rifleman (Zachodnia Dywizja Strzelcow Polskich),
a collection of WWI Russian ethnic Polish units placed in one
division in October of 1918. It had 8,000 men initially and engaged
in the first Polish-Soviet skirmishes in early 1919 at Wilno and
Minsk. Pole against Pole, atheist communist against catholic
capitalist.

Henry

Reply | Messages in this Topic (9)
#8078 From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 11:57 am
Subject: Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star 		haverp
Send Email Send Email
 
I have to admit it makes interesting reading.
From the books that I have I have read that the Signing of a treaty was a similar to the one signed by Hitler and Stalin.
A Non Aggression Pact" and not an Alliance. There is a difference. Also according to the books there were no Ukrainian soldiers in the forces that took Kijow.

I hate to say this but the information from Canada I general take with a pinch of salt as I have had dealings with the "Ukrainian" historians that
reside in that country and the versions of history that they supply generally do not meet the true events.

I have also had accusations thrown at me by a person named Orest from the Galicja list, who accused me of spreading "Polish Filth and Propaganda" but couldn't substantiate and prove his accusations. He also couldn't answer a few questions that I posted also he was unable to take in the information that I referred to from factual books written by a certain Ukrainian as they were not "truthful" in his opinion as that person was "lower that dirt" as he put it.

So please forgive me if I don't accept a Canadian Ukrainian point of view since one of them tried to slander me on another list but couldn't prove all his accusations and mysteriously disappeared from the list a while later and another who as a Professor in a Military University decided that my web pages are "a pack of lies" and almost cost me my job by deciding to write to my employer complaining that i have falsified history. I made a mistake of replying to his email from work and it almost cost me my job.

Paul

At 03:41 01/02/2004, you wrote:
Thanks for that summary of the Ukrainian text Michael.

Regardless of the exact details one can see how the post WWI border
conflicts and power vaccum set up the extremely tense Polish-
Ukrainian situation. The tension continued to brew and simmer over
the inter war period. We all know what happened with the outbreak of
WW2.

Henryk

Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@s...>
wrote:
> Paul Havers writes:
> "A declaration of independence was tried by the Ukrainians at the
end of
> WW1, it wasn't recognised by anyone.
> Hence the fighting between them and the Poles. The most notable
being in
> Lwow."
>
> The words below are my own, but most of the information comes from
Orest
> Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, 1988 University of Toronto Press
(ISBN
> 0-8020-5808-6)
>
> At the outset of World War I in 1914, most Ukrainians lived in the
Russian
> Empire, but a significant minority lived in Habsburg territory,
mainly in
> East Galicia, Bukovyna and Transcarpathia. Although there had been
regular
> prewar contacts between Russian and Austrian Ukrainians, they were
distinct
> communities. Consequently at the end of World War I there were two
separate
> Ukrainian declarations of independence, one in Kyiv and another in
Lviv. It
> was only later that the Ukrainian governments formally united, but
even
> then the two administrations remained largely independent of each
other.
>
> When the Tsarist government fell in March 1917, Ukrainian
nationalists in
> Kyiv established the Central Rada (rada = council) headed by the
historian
> Mykhailo Hrushevskyj. At first the Rada's goal was Ukrainian
autonomy in a
> federal Russian republic; however, disagreements with first the
Russian
> provisional government and then the Bolsheviks led to a Communist
invasion
> of Ukraine in December, followed by a Ukrainian declaration of
independence
> on January 22, 1918. The Bolshevik invasion was carried out in the
name of
> the Soviet Ukrainian Republic that had been established in
Kharkiv. This is
> an important fact, because it shows that Ukrainian nationalism had
acquired
> mass support which even the Bolsheviks could not ignore completely.
>
> On February 9, 1918, at about the same time as Bolshevik troops
were
> marching
> into Kyiv, the Rada signed a treaty at Brest-Litovsk in which the
> Central Powers recognized Ukrainian independence. The Rada had
turned to the
> Germans and Austrians after their overtures to the Entente had been
> rebuffed. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk called for
> German military support in exchange for food. (There were serious
food
> shortages in Germany.) The Germans and Ukrainians drove the
Bolsheviks out
> of Kyiv and reestablished the Central Rada as Ukraine's
government. However,
> the Rada had limited support in the countryside and the forced
exactions of
> foodstuffs enraged the Ukrainian peasantry.
>
> Fed up with the administrative incompetence of the mainly
socialist Rada,
> the Germans deposed it on April 28
> and put into power Pavel Skoropadsky who established a monarchial
government
> known as the Hetmanate. (Ukrainian Cossack leaders were called
hetmans.)
> Skoropadsky was a Russian nobleman descended from a Ukrainian
Cossack
> family, which fact he played up in a failed attempt to win over
Ukrainian
> nationalists. He cooperated with the Germans and local Russian
landlords
> which made him unpopular with Ukrainian peasants. The Hetamanate
managed to
> establish diplomatic relations with about a dozen countries.
>
> When it became apparent in November 1918 that the Central Powers
were about
> to lose the war, a Ukrainian insurrectionary government known as
> the Directory and led by Volodymyr Vynnychenko and Simon Petliura
took up
> arms against Skoropadsky. On December 14, the Germans left Kyiv
taking
> Skoropadsky with them. The Directory then reestablished the
Ukrainian
> National Republic that had been originally declared by the Central
Rada.
>
> Meanwhile the collapse of the Central Powers led to developments
in the
> Habsburg lands. On October 18, 1918 Ukrainian politicians and
church leaders
> established the Ukrainian National Council in Eastern Galicia.
This led to
> conflict with Polish nationalists who wanted to incorporate the
region into
> the new Polish state. On the night of October 31, a group of
Ukrainian
> soldiers serving in the Austrian army took control of Lviv without
> consulting the Ukrainian National
> Council. This led to house-to-house fighting between the
Ukrainians and the
> Polish Military Organization. On November 13 a Ukrainian
provisional council
> declared the establishment of the West Ukrainian National Republic
(Zakhidno
> Ukrainska Narodna Respublyka - ZUNR). On November 22, Ukrainians
lost
> control of Lviv and the ZUNR government evacuated to Stanyslaviv.
There
> followed a Ukrainian-Polish war. On January 22, 1919 the West
Ukrainian
> National Republic formally united with Petliura's Ukrainian
National
> Republic in Kyiv.
>
> Subtelny divides the Ukrainian-Polish war into three stages. The
first stage
> which ended in February, 1919 was between the ZUNR and local East
Galician
> Poles. The second stage which lasted from March to May was
> between East Galician Ukrainians and forces from central Poland.
The Polish
> troops under General Jozef Haller consisted of 60,000 "superbly
equipped"
> Polish prisoners of war and was largely led by French officers.
The Entente
> had sent this army from France to fight the Bolsheviks, but it was
used
> instead
> against the Ukrainians, who were driven back to the River Zbruch.
The third
> stage of the war began in June when Ukrainian forces launched a
successful
> counterattack which almost reached Lviv, but petered out after the
> Ukrainians
> ran out of ammunition and couldn't find foreign support. Ukrainian
forces
> were once again pushed back to the Zbruch and on July 16, 1919
they crossed
> the river to join East Ukrainian forces fighting the Bolsheviks
and the
> Whites. That ended the Polish-Ukrainian war.
>
> The war in the East lasted until the fall of 1919. After the final
collapse
> of the Ukrainian forces Petliura and the Directory took refuge in
Poland
> while the West Ukrainian leaders set up a government-in-exile in
Vienna.
> West Ukrainian delegates at the Paris Peace
> Conference to try to win
> support for a Ukrainian state in East Galicia. The Polish
government
> naturally opposed these efforts arguing that Ukrainians were too
backward to
> govern themselves and that Ukrainian nationality was a German
invention.
>
> On April 21, 1920 Petliura renounced all Ukrainian claims to East
Galicia
> and entered into an alliance with the Poles for an invasion of
Ukraine. The
> Poles were hoping to create an East Ukrainian buffer state between
> themselves and the Bolsheviks. On May 6, forces consisting of
65,000 Poles
> and 15,000 Ukrainians took Kyiv. However, the East Ukrainian
peasantry were
> suspicious of the Poles and did not support the invasion. The
Bolsheviks
> counterattacked eventually reaching a separate peace with the
Poles.
> Petliura's army which had grown to 35,000 men fought until
November 10, 1920
> when they retreated to Poland where they were interned.
>
> Michael Monastyrskyj
> Toronto, Canada


****************************************************************************
 KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
 "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
 deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
****************************************************************************
 Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
 Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
 Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
****************************************************************************
 To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
 saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
 Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
****************************************************************************
 

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
#8079 From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 12:14 pm
Subject: Fwd: ciekawe dane 		haverp
Send Email Send Email
 
Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul




Przypadkiem natknelam sie na cos takiego:
Wedlug przeprowadzanego w 2001 r. na Ukrainie spisu ludnosci we Lwowie
18948 osób okreslilo sie jako Polacy. Z tego jako jezyk rodzony polski
podalo 10596 osob, ukrainski 7771, rosyjski 537, inny 16 .

Wiecej danych z tego spisu na http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/

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Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)
#8080 From: "Jan Prygoda" <j.prygoda@...>
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 12:33 pm
Subject: Population 		jprygoda
Send Email Send Email
 
Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
 
Jan
 
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul

Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
#8081 From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: Population 		haverp
Send Email Send Email
 

City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can assume that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the information

Paul

At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:
Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
 
Jan
 
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Paul Havers
Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul

****************************************************************************
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
****************************************************************************
Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
****************************************************************************
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
****************************************************************************



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Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
#8082 From: chris bienkowski <chris_bienkowski@...>
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: Population 		chris_bienko...
Send Email Send Email
 
My understanding is that the 1931 census showed the following
Poles 198,212 (63.5%)
Ukrainians 35,137 (11.3%)
Jews 75,316 (24.1%)
 
Chris

Paul Havers <haverp@...> wrote:

City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can assume that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the information

Paul

At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:
Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
 
Jan
 
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Paul Havers
Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul

****************************************************************************
KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
****************************************************************************
Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
****************************************************************************
To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
****************************************************************************



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    ****************************************************************************
    KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
    "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
    deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
    ****************************************************************************
    Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
    Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
    Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
    ****************************************************************************
    To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
    saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
    Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
    ****************************************************************************



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    Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
    #8083 From: "Paul Havers" <paul.havers@...>
    Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 4:34 pm
    Subject: Re: Population     		paul.havers@...
    Send Email Send Email
     
    That was in 1931, things have changed a bit
     
    Paul
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:14 PM
    Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Population

    My understanding is that the 1931 census showed the following
    Poles 198,212 (63.5%)
    Ukrainians 35,137 (11.3%)
    Jews 75,316 (24.1%)
     
    Chris

    Paul Havers <haverp@...> wrote:

    City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can assume that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
    As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the information

    Paul

    At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:
    Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
     
    Jan
     
    ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
    Van: Paul Havers
    Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
    Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
    Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

    Got this from another group, about Lwow

    Roughly translated

    During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their Nationality as
    18948 classed themselves as Polish
    10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
    7771 classed as Ukrainian
    537 as Russian
    others 16

    The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

    very interesting

    Paul

    ****************************************************************************
    KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
    "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
    deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
    ****************************************************************************
    Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
    Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
    Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
    ****************************************************************************
    To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
    saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
    Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
    ****************************************************************************



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      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      All outgoing messages are certified Virus Free
      Scanned by Norton Anti Virus 2003 - www.sarc.com
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ****************************************************************************
      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
      "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
      deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
      ****************************************************************************
      Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
      Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
      Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
      ****************************************************************************
      To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
      saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
      ****************************************************************************



      Yahoo! Groups Links

      BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up online today and save Ł80

      ****************************************************************************
      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
      "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
      deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
      ****************************************************************************
      Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
      Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
      Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
      ****************************************************************************
      To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
      saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
      ****************************************************************************




      Yahoo! Groups Links


      Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
      #8084 From: "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@...>
      Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 6:53 pm
      Subject: Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star       		monastyrskyj
      Send Email Send Email
        
      > Thanks for that summary of the Ukrainian text Michael.

Hi Henryk. I'm glad you liked it. Just in case there's any confusion, Orest
Subtelny is a history professor at York University, Toronto and his book was
written in English. If anyone is interested, it's still in print.

> Regardless of the exact details one can see how the post WWI border
> conflicts and power vaccum set up the extremely tense Polish-
> Ukrainian situation.

I hope I got the details right, but I do agree that it's the big picture
that's important.

Michael Monastyrskyj
Toronto, Canada

      Reply | Messages in this Topic (19)
      #8085 From: "Tomek Wisniewski" <tomy@...>
      Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 7:55 pm
      Subject: RE: Digest Number 853       		kolodno_holiday
      Send Email Send Email
        
      Hi Friends
Projekt of Looking for Poland Societe has test website. Its on
www.szukamypolski.com
There is also our manifest translated into in English
Soon will be more in English
Tomek Wisniewski

-----Original Message-----
From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 8:52 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Digest Number 853


There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

       1. Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star
            From: "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@...>
       2. Re: White Eagle Red Star
            From: "henrysokolowski" <hsokol@...>
       3. Polish-Soviet War
            From: "henrysokolowski" <hsokol@...>
       4. Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star
            From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
       5. Fwd: ciekawe dane
            From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
       6. Population
            From: "Jan Prygoda" <j.prygoda@...>
       7. Re: Population
            From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
       8. Re: Population
            From: chris bienkowski <chris_bienkowski@...>
       9. Re: Population
            From: "Paul Havers" <paul.havers@...>
      10. Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star
            From: "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
    Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:16:55 -0500
    From: "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@...>
Subject: Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star

Paul Havers writes:
"A declaration of independence was tried by the Ukrainians at the end of
WW1, it wasn't recognised by anyone.
Hence the fighting between them and the Poles. The most notable being in
Lwow."

The words below are my own, but most of the information comes from Orest
Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, 1988 University of Toronto Press (ISBN
0-8020-5808-6)

At the outset of World War I in 1914, most Ukrainians lived in the
Russian
Empire, but a significant minority lived in Habsburg territory, mainly
in
East Galicia, Bukovyna and Transcarpathia. Although there had been
regular
prewar contacts between Russian and Austrian Ukrainians, they were
distinct
communities. Consequently at the end of World War I there were two
separate
Ukrainian declarations of independence, one in Kyiv and another in Lviv.
It
was only later that the Ukrainian governments formally united, but even
then the two administrations remained largely independent of each other.

When the Tsarist government fell in March 1917, Ukrainian nationalists
in
Kyiv established the Central Rada (rada = council) headed by the
historian
Mykhailo Hrushevskyj. At first the Rada's goal was Ukrainian autonomy in
a
federal Russian republic; however, disagreements with first the Russian
provisional government and then the Bolsheviks led to a Communist
invasion
of Ukraine in December, followed by a Ukrainian declaration of
independence
on January 22, 1918. The Bolshevik invasion was carried out in the name
of
the Soviet Ukrainian Republic that had been established in Kharkiv. This
is
an important fact, because it shows that Ukrainian nationalism had
acquired
mass support which even the Bolsheviks could not ignore completely.

On February 9, 1918, at about the same time as Bolshevik troops were
marching
into Kyiv, the Rada signed a treaty at Brest-Litovsk in which the
Central Powers recognized Ukrainian independence. The Rada had turned to
the
Germans and Austrians after their overtures to the Entente had been
rebuffed. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk called for
German military support in exchange for food. (There were serious food
shortages in Germany.) The Germans and Ukrainians drove the Bolsheviks
out
of Kyiv and reestablished the Central Rada as Ukraine's government.
However,
the Rada had limited support in the countryside and the forced exactions
of
foodstuffs enraged the Ukrainian peasantry.

Fed up with the administrative incompetence of the mainly socialist
Rada,
the Germans deposed it on April 28
and put into power Pavel Skoropadsky who established a monarchial
government
known as the Hetmanate. (Ukrainian Cossack leaders were called hetmans.)
Skoropadsky was a Russian nobleman descended from a Ukrainian Cossack
family, which fact he played up in a failed attempt to win over
Ukrainian
nationalists. He cooperated with the Germans and local Russian landlords
which made him unpopular with Ukrainian peasants. The Hetamanate managed
to
establish diplomatic relations with about a dozen countries.

When it became apparent in November 1918 that the Central Powers were
about
to lose the war, a Ukrainian insurrectionary government known as
the Directory and led by Volodymyr Vynnychenko and Simon Petliura took
up
arms against Skoropadsky. On December 14, the Germans left Kyiv taking
Skoropadsky with them. The Directory then reestablished the Ukrainian
National Republic that had been originally declared by the Central Rada.

Meanwhile the collapse of the Central Powers led to developments in the
Habsburg lands. On October 18, 1918 Ukrainian politicians and church
leaders
established the Ukrainian National Council in Eastern Galicia. This led
to
conflict with Polish nationalists who wanted to incorporate the region
into
the new Polish state. On the night of October 31, a group of Ukrainian
soldiers serving in the Austrian army took control of Lviv without
consulting the Ukrainian National
Council. This led to house-to-house fighting between the Ukrainians and
the
Polish Military Organization. On November 13 a Ukrainian provisional
council
declared the establishment of the West Ukrainian National Republic
(Zakhidno
Ukrainska Narodna Respublyka - ZUNR). On November 22, Ukrainians lost
control of Lviv and the ZUNR government evacuated to Stanyslaviv. There
followed a Ukrainian-Polish war. On January 22, 1919 the West Ukrainian
National Republic formally united with Petliura's Ukrainian National
Republic in Kyiv.

Subtelny divides the Ukrainian-Polish war into three stages. The first
stage
which ended in February, 1919 was between the ZUNR and local East
Galician
Poles. The second stage which lasted from March to May was
between East Galician Ukrainians and forces from central Poland. The
Polish
troops under General Jozef Haller consisted of 60,000 "superbly
equipped"
Polish prisoners of war and was largely led by French officers. The
Entente
had sent this army from France to fight the Bolsheviks, but it was used
instead
against the Ukrainians, who were driven back to the River Zbruch. The
third
stage of the war began in June when Ukrainian forces launched a
successful
counterattack which almost reached Lviv, but petered out after the
Ukrainians
ran out of ammunition and couldn't find foreign support. Ukrainian
forces
were once again pushed back to the Zbruch and on July 16, 1919 they
crossed
the river to join East Ukrainian forces fighting the Bolsheviks and the
Whites. That ended the Polish-Ukrainian war.

The war in the East lasted until the fall of 1919. After the final
collapse
of the Ukrainian forces Petliura and the Directory took refuge in Poland
while the West Ukrainian leaders set up a government-in-exile in Vienna.
West Ukrainian delegates at the Paris Peace
Conference to try to win
support for a Ukrainian state in East Galicia. The Polish government
naturally opposed these efforts arguing that Ukrainians were too
backward to
govern themselves and that Ukrainian nationality was a German invention.

On April 21, 1920 Petliura renounced all Ukrainian claims to East
Galicia
and entered into an alliance with the Poles for an invasion of Ukraine.
The
Poles were hoping to create an East Ukrainian buffer state between
themselves and the Bolsheviks. On May 6, forces consisting of 65,000
Poles
and 15,000 Ukrainians took Kyiv. However, the East Ukrainian peasantry
were
suspicious of the Poles and did not support the invasion. The Bolsheviks
counterattacked eventually reaching a separate peace with the Poles.
Petliura's army which had grown to 35,000 men fought until November 10,
1920
when they retreated to Poland where they were interned.

Michael Monastyrskyj
Toronto, Canada




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
    Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 03:41:23 -0000
    From: "henrysokolowski" <hsokol@...>
Subject: Re: White Eagle Red Star

Thanks for that summary of the Ukrainian text Michael.

Regardless of the exact details one can see how the post WWI border
conflicts and power vaccum set up the extremely tense Polish-
Ukrainian situation. The tension continued to brew and simmer over
the inter war period. We all know what happened with the outbreak of
WW2.

Henryk

Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@s...>
wrote:
> Paul Havers writes:
> "A declaration of independence was tried by the Ukrainians at the
end of
> WW1, it wasn't recognised by anyone.
> Hence the fighting between them and the Poles. The most notable
being in
> Lwow."
>
> The words below are my own, but most of the information comes from
Orest
> Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, 1988 University of Toronto Press
(ISBN
> 0-8020-5808-6)
>
> At the outset of World War I in 1914, most Ukrainians lived in the
Russian
> Empire, but a significant minority lived in Habsburg territory,
mainly in
> East Galicia, Bukovyna and Transcarpathia. Although there had been
regular
> prewar contacts between Russian and Austrian Ukrainians, they were
distinct
> communities. Consequently at the end of World War I there were two
separate
> Ukrainian declarations of independence, one in Kyiv and another in
Lviv. It
> was only later that the Ukrainian governments formally united, but
even
> then the two administrations remained largely independent of each
other.
>
> When the Tsarist government fell in March 1917, Ukrainian
nationalists in
> Kyiv established the Central Rada (rada = council) headed by the
historian
> Mykhailo Hrushevskyj. At first the Rada's goal was Ukrainian
autonomy in a
> federal Russian republic; however, disagreements with first the
Russian
> provisional government and then the Bolsheviks led to a Communist
invasion
> of Ukraine in December, followed by a Ukrainian declaration of
independence
> on January 22, 1918. The Bolshevik invasion was carried out in the
name of
> the Soviet Ukrainian Republic that had been established in
Kharkiv. This is
> an important fact, because it shows that Ukrainian nationalism had
acquired
> mass support which even the Bolsheviks could not ignore completely.
>
> On February 9, 1918, at about the same time as Bolshevik troops
were
> marching
> into Kyiv, the Rada signed a treaty at Brest-Litovsk in which the
> Central Powers recognized Ukrainian independence. The Rada had
turned to the
> Germans and Austrians after their overtures to the Entente had been
> rebuffed. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk called for
> German military support in exchange for food. (There were serious
food
> shortages in Germany.) The Germans and Ukrainians drove the
Bolsheviks out
> of Kyiv and reestablished the Central Rada as Ukraine's
government. However,
> the Rada had limited support in the countryside and the forced
exactions of
> foodstuffs enraged the Ukrainian peasantry.
>
> Fed up with the administrative incompetence of the mainly
socialist Rada,
> the Germans deposed it on April 28
> and put into power Pavel Skoropadsky who established a monarchial
government
> known as the Hetmanate. (Ukrainian Cossack leaders were called
hetmans.)
> Skoropadsky was a Russian nobleman descended from a Ukrainian
Cossack
> family, which fact he played up in a failed attempt to win over
Ukrainian
> nationalists. He cooperated with the Germans and local Russian
landlords
> which made him unpopular with Ukrainian peasants. The Hetamanate
managed to
> establish diplomatic relations with about a dozen countries.
>
> When it became apparent in November 1918 that the Central Powers
were about
> to lose the war, a Ukrainian insurrectionary government known as
> the Directory and led by Volodymyr Vynnychenko and Simon Petliura
took up
> arms against Skoropadsky. On December 14, the Germans left Kyiv
taking
> Skoropadsky with them. The Directory then reestablished the
Ukrainian
> National Republic that had been originally declared by the Central
Rada.
>
> Meanwhile the collapse of the Central Powers led to developments
in the
> Habsburg lands. On October 18, 1918 Ukrainian politicians and
church leaders
> established the Ukrainian National Council in Eastern Galicia.
This led to
> conflict with Polish nationalists who wanted to incorporate the
region into
> the new Polish state. On the night of October 31, a group of
Ukrainian
> soldiers serving in the Austrian army took control of Lviv without
> consulting the Ukrainian National
> Council. This led to house-to-house fighting between the
Ukrainians and the
> Polish Military Organization. On November 13 a Ukrainian
provisional council
> declared the establishment of the West Ukrainian National Republic
(Zakhidno
> Ukrainska Narodna Respublyka - ZUNR). On November 22, Ukrainians
lost
> control of Lviv and the ZUNR government evacuated to Stanyslaviv.
There
> followed a Ukrainian-Polish war. On January 22, 1919 the West
Ukrainian
> National Republic formally united with Petliura's Ukrainian
National
> Republic in Kyiv.
>
> Subtelny divides the Ukrainian-Polish war into three stages. The
first stage
> which ended in February, 1919 was between the ZUNR and local East
Galician
> Poles. The second stage which lasted from March to May was
> between East Galician Ukrainians and forces from central Poland.
The Polish
> troops under General Jozef Haller consisted of 60,000 "superbly
equipped"
> Polish prisoners of war and was largely led by French officers.
The Entente
> had sent this army from France to fight the Bolsheviks, but it was
used
> instead
> against the Ukrainians, who were driven back to the River Zbruch.
The third
> stage of the war began in June when Ukrainian forces launched a
successful
> counterattack which almost reached Lviv, but petered out after the
> Ukrainians
> ran out of ammunition and couldn't find foreign support. Ukrainian
forces
> were once again pushed back to the Zbruch and on July 16, 1919
they crossed
> the river to join East Ukrainian forces fighting the Bolsheviks
and the
> Whites. That ended the Polish-Ukrainian war.
>
> The war in the East lasted until the fall of 1919. After the final
collapse
> of the Ukrainian forces Petliura and the Directory took refuge in
Poland
> while the West Ukrainian leaders set up a government-in-exile in
Vienna.
> West Ukrainian delegates at the Paris Peace
> Conference to try to win
> support for a Ukrainian state in East Galicia. The Polish
government
> naturally opposed these efforts arguing that Ukrainians were too
backward to
> govern themselves and that Ukrainian nationality was a German
invention.
>
> On April 21, 1920 Petliura renounced all Ukrainian claims to East
Galicia
> and entered into an alliance with the Poles for an invasion of
Ukraine. The
> Poles were hoping to create an East Ukrainian buffer state between
> themselves and the Bolsheviks. On May 6, forces consisting of
65,000 Poles
> and 15,000 Ukrainians took Kyiv. However, the East Ukrainian
peasantry were
> suspicious of the Poles and did not support the invasion. The
Bolsheviks
> counterattacked eventually reaching a separate peace with the
Poles.
> Petliura's army which had grown to 35,000 men fought until
November 10, 1920
> when they retreated to Poland where they were interned.
>
> Michael Monastyrskyj
> Toronto, Canada



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
    Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 04:04:28 -0000
    From: "henrysokolowski" <hsokol@...>
Subject: Polish-Soviet War

More links: http://members.lycos.co.uk/jozefpilsudski/vistula.html
and http://www.polishconsulate.org.uk

The following link contains translations of Trotsky's writings.
Scroll down to his verbose propaganda on the War with Poland:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1920-mil/index.htm

There were many communist Poles who were on the side of the
Bolsheviks. For example, Feliks Dzierzynski was the son of a Polish
nobleman but adopted communism early on. He wanted Poland to become
a part of the Soviet Union and considered Polish self-determination
to be nothing more than a play by the bourgeoise capitalists to keep
the wealth in their hands.

Apparently, the communists (and varying degrees of socialists) just
wanted to break up the monopolies of the traditional rich and
landowning nobility in order to give peasants (whose lives were
generally quite miserable) a better life. Everything then went
horribly wrong.

Dzierzynski become the head of the Soviet Cheka (secret police)
which was a nasty organization.

Paraphrased From Norman Davies Book:

The Western Red Army itself contained a Polish Division, the Western
Division of Polish Rifleman (Zachodnia Dywizja Strzelcow Polskich),
a collection of WWI Russian ethnic Polish units placed in one
division in October of 1918. It had 8,000 men initially and engaged
in the first Polish-Soviet skirmishes in early 1919 at Wilno and
Minsk. Pole against Pole, atheist communist against catholic
capitalist.

Henry





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
    Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:57:40 +0000
    From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
Subject: Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star

I have to admit it makes interesting reading.
  From the books that I have I have read that the Signing of a treaty was
a
similar to the one signed by Hitler and Stalin.
A Non Aggression Pact" and not an Alliance. There is a difference. Also
according to the books there were no Ukrainian soldiers in the forces
that
took Kijow.

I hate to say this but the information from Canada I general take with a

pinch of salt as I have had dealings with the "Ukrainian" historians
that
reside in that country and the versions of history that they supply
generally do not meet the true events.

I have also had accusations thrown at me by a person named Orest from
the
Galicja list, who accused me of spreading "Polish Filth and Propaganda"
but
couldn't substantiate and prove his accusations. He also couldn't answer
a
few questions that I posted also he was unable to take in the
information
that I referred to from factual books written by a certain Ukrainian as
they were not "truthful" in his opinion as that person was "lower that
dirt" as he put it.

So please forgive me if I don't accept a Canadian Ukrainian point of
view
since one of them tried to slander me on another list but couldn't prove

all his accusations and mysteriously disappeared from the list a while
later and another who as a Professor in a Military University decided
that
my web pages are "a pack of lies" and almost cost me my job by deciding
to
write to my employer complaining that i have falsified history. I made a

mistake of replying to his email from work and it almost cost me my job.

Paul

At 03:41 01/02/2004, you wrote:
>Thanks for that summary of the Ukrainian text Michael.
>
>Regardless of the exact details one can see how the post WWI border
>conflicts and power vaccum set up the extremely tense Polish-
>Ukrainian situation. The tension continued to brew and simmer over
>the inter war period. We all know what happened with the outbreak of
>WW2.
>
>Henryk
>
>Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@s...>
>wrote:
> > Paul Havers writes:
> > "A declaration of independence was tried by the Ukrainians at the
>end of
> > WW1, it wasn't recognised by anyone.
> > Hence the fighting between them and the Poles. The most notable
>being in
> > Lwow."
> >
> > The words below are my own, but most of the information comes from
>Orest
> > Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, 1988 University of Toronto Press
>(ISBN
> > 0-8020-5808-6)
> >
> > At the outset of World War I in 1914, most Ukrainians lived in the
>Russian
> > Empire, but a significant minority lived in Habsburg territory,
>mainly in
> > East Galicia, Bukovyna and Transcarpathia. Although there had been
>regular
> > prewar contacts between Russian and Austrian Ukrainians, they were
>distinct
> > communities. Consequently at the end of World War I there were two
>separate
> > Ukrainian declarations of independence, one in Kyiv and another in
>Lviv. It
> > was only later that the Ukrainian governments formally united, but
>even
> > then the two administrations remained largely independent of each
>other.
> >
> > When the Tsarist government fell in March 1917, Ukrainian
>nationalists in
> > Kyiv established the Central Rada (rada = council) headed by the
>historian
> > Mykhailo Hrushevskyj. At first the Rada's goal was Ukrainian
>autonomy in a
> > federal Russian republic; however, disagreements with first the
>Russian
> > provisional government and then the Bolsheviks led to a Communist
>invasion
> > of Ukraine in December, followed by a Ukrainian declaration of
>independence
> > on January 22, 1918. The Bolshevik invasion was carried out in the
>name of
> > the Soviet Ukrainian Republic that had been established in
>Kharkiv. This is
> > an important fact, because it shows that Ukrainian nationalism had
>acquired
> > mass support which even the Bolsheviks could not ignore completely.
> >
> > On February 9, 1918, at about the same time as Bolshevik troops
>were
> > marching
> > into Kyiv, the Rada signed a treaty at Brest-Litovsk in which the
> > Central Powers recognized Ukrainian independence. The Rada had
>turned to the
> > Germans and Austrians after their overtures to the Entente had been
> > rebuffed. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk called for
> > German military support in exchange for food. (There were serious
>food
> > shortages in Germany.) The Germans and Ukrainians drove the
>Bolsheviks out
> > of Kyiv and reestablished the Central Rada as Ukraine's
>government. However,
> > the Rada had limited support in the countryside and the forced
>exactions of
> > foodstuffs enraged the Ukrainian peasantry.
> >
> > Fed up with the administrative incompetence of the mainly
>socialist Rada,
> > the Germans deposed it on April 28
> > and put into power Pavel Skoropadsky who established a monarchial
>government
> > known as the Hetmanate. (Ukrainian Cossack leaders were called
>hetmans.)
> > Skoropadsky was a Russian nobleman descended from a Ukrainian
>Cossack
> > family, which fact he played up in a failed attempt to win over
>Ukrainian
> > nationalists. He cooperated with the Germans and local Russian
>landlords
> > which made him unpopular with Ukrainian peasants. The Hetamanate
>managed to
> > establish diplomatic relations with about a dozen countries.
> >
> > When it became apparent in November 1918 that the Central Powers
>were about
> > to lose the war, a Ukrainian insurrectionary government known as
> > the Directory and led by Volodymyr Vynnychenko and Simon Petliura
>took up
> > arms against Skoropadsky. On December 14, the Germans left Kyiv
>taking
> > Skoropadsky with them. The Directory then reestablished the
>Ukrainian
> > National Republic that had been originally declared by the Central
>Rada.
> >
> > Meanwhile the collapse of the Central Powers led to developments
>in the
> > Habsburg lands. On October 18, 1918 Ukrainian politicians and
>church leaders
> > established the Ukrainian National Council in Eastern Galicia.
>This led to
> > conflict with Polish nationalists who wanted to incorporate the
>region into
> > the new Polish state. On the night of October 31, a group of
>Ukrainian
> > soldiers serving in the Austrian army took control of Lviv without
> > consulting the Ukrainian National
> > Council. This led to house-to-house fighting between the
>Ukrainians and the
> > Polish Military Organization. On November 13 a Ukrainian
>provisional council
> > declared the establishment of the West Ukrainian National Republic
>(Zakhidno
> > Ukrainska Narodna Respublyka - ZUNR). On November 22, Ukrainians
>lost
> > control of Lviv and the ZUNR government evacuated to Stanyslaviv.
>There
> > followed a Ukrainian-Polish war. On January 22, 1919 the West
>Ukrainian
> > National Republic formally united with Petliura's Ukrainian
>National
> > Republic in Kyiv.
> >
> > Subtelny divides the Ukrainian-Polish war into three stages. The
>first stage
> > which ended in February, 1919 was between the ZUNR and local East
>Galician
> > Poles. The second stage which lasted from March to May was
> > between East Galician Ukrainians and forces from central Poland.
>The Polish
> > troops under General Jozef Haller consisted of 60,000 "superbly
>equipped"
> > Polish prisoners of war and was largely led by French officers.
>The Entente
> > had sent this army from France to fight the Bolsheviks, but it was
>used
> > instead
> > against the Ukrainians, who were driven back to the River Zbruch.
>The third
> > stage of the war began in June when Ukrainian forces launched a
>successful
> > counterattack which almost reached Lviv, but petered out after the
> > Ukrainians
> > ran out of ammunition and couldn't find foreign support. Ukrainian
>forces
> > were once again pushed back to the Zbruch and on July 16, 1919
>they crossed
> > the river to join East Ukrainian forces fighting the Bolsheviks
>and the
> > Whites. That ended the Polish-Ukrainian war.
> >
> > The war in the East lasted until the fall of 1919. After the final
>collapse
> > of the Ukrainian forces Petliura and the Directory took refuge in
>Poland
> > while the West Ukrainian leaders set up a government-in-exile in
>Vienna.
> > West Ukrainian delegates at the Paris Peace
> > Conference to try to win
> > support for a Ukrainian state in East Galicia. The Polish
>government
> > naturally opposed these efforts arguing that Ukrainians were too
>backward to
> > govern themselves and that Ukrainian nationality was a German
>invention.
> >
> > On April 21, 1920 Petliura renounced all Ukrainian claims to East
>Galicia
> > and entered into an alliance with the Poles for an invasion of
>Ukraine. The
> > Poles were hoping to create an East Ukrainian buffer state between
> > themselves and the Bolsheviks. On May 6, forces consisting of
>65,000 Poles
> > and 15,000 Ukrainians took Kyiv. However, the East Ukrainian
>peasantry were
> > suspicious of the Poles and did not support the invasion. The
>Bolsheviks
> > counterattacked eventually reaching a separate peace with the
>Poles.
> > Petliura's army which had grown to 35,000 men fought until
>November 10, 1920
> > when they retreated to Poland where they were interned.
> >
> > Michael Monastyrskyj
> > Toronto, Canada
>
>
>***********************************************************************
*****
>  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
>  "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish
citizens
>  deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War
Two."
>***********************************************************************
*****
>  Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
>  Gallery (photos, documents) :
http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
>  Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
>***********************************************************************
*****
>  To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
>  saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
>  Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
>***********************************************************************
*****
>
>
>
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>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
    Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 12:14:03 +0000
    From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
Subject: Fwd: ciekawe dane

Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their
Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul




>Przypadkiem natknelam sie na cos takiego:
>Wedlug przeprowadzanego w 2001 r. na Ukrainie spisu ludnosci we Lwowie
>18948 osób okreslilo sie jako Polacy. Z tego jako jezyk rodzony polski
>podalo 10596 osob, ukrainski 7771, rosyjski 537, inny 16 .
>
>Wiecej danych z tego spisu na http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/
>

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________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
    Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:33:19 +0100
    From: "Jan Prygoda" <j.prygoda@...>
Subject: Population

Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much
bigger from 1918-1939 ?

Jan

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Paul Havers
Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane


Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their
Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul

[This message contained attachments]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
    Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:07:41 +0000
    From: Paul Havers <haverp@...>
Subject: Re: Population


City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can assume
that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the
information

Paul

At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:
>Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much

>bigger from 1918-1939 ?
>
>Jan
>
>----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
>Van: <mailto:haverp@...>Paul Havers
>Aan: <mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>Kresy-Siberia Group
>Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
>Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane
>
>Got this from another group, about Lwow
>
>Roughly translated
>
>During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their
>Nationality as
>18948 classed themselves as Polish
>10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
>7771 classed as Ukrainian
>537 as Russian
>others 16
>
>The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more
>
>very interesting
>
>Paul
>
>***********************************************************************
*****
>KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
>"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish
citizens
>deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War
Two."
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Message: 8
    Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:14:58 +0000 (GMT)
    From: chris bienkowski <chris_bienkowski@...>
Subject: Re: Population

My understanding is that the 1931 census showed the following
Poles 198,212 (63.5%)
Ukrainians 35,137 (11.3%)
Jews 75,316 (24.1%)

Chris

Paul Havers <haverp@...> wrote:

City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can assume
that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the
information

Paul

At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:
Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much
bigger from 1918-1939 ?

Jan

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Paul Havers
Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

Got this from another group, about Lwow

Roughly translated

During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their
Nationality as
18948 classed themselves as Polish
10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
7771 classed as Ukrainian
537 as Russian
others 16

The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

very interesting

Paul

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"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish
citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
************************************************************************
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KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
"Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish
citizens
deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
************************************************************************
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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
    Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:34:05 -0000
    From: "Paul Havers" <paul.havers@...>
Subject: Re: Population

That was in 1931, things have changed a bit

Paul
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: chris bienkowski
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:14 PM
   Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Population


   My understanding is that the 1931 census showed the following
   Poles 198,212 (63.5%)
   Ukrainians 35,137 (11.3%)
   Jews 75,316 (24.1%)

   Chris

   Paul Havers <haverp@...> wrote:

     City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can
assume that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
     As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the
information

     Paul

     At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:

       Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it
much bigger from 1918-1939 ?

       Jan

       ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
       Van: Paul Havers
       Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
       Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
       Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

       Got this from another group, about Lwow

       Roughly translated

       During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave
their Nationality as
       18948 classed themselves as Polish
       10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
       7771 classed as Ukrainian
       537 as Russian
       others 16

       The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

       very interesting

       Paul


************************************************************************
****
       KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
       "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish
citizens
       deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War
Two."

************************************************************************
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       Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
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http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
       Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com

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Message: 10
    Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:53:36 -0500
    From: "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@...>
Subject: Re: Re: White Eagle Red Star

> Thanks for that summary of the Ukrainian text Michael.

Hi Henryk. I'm glad you liked it. Just in case there's any confusion,
Orest
Subtelny is a history professor at York University, Toronto and his book
was
written in English. If anyone is interested, it's still in print.

> Regardless of the exact details one can see how the post WWI border
> conflicts and power vaccum set up the extremely tense Polish-
> Ukrainian situation.

I hope I got the details right, but I do agree that it's the big picture
that's important.

Michael Monastyrskyj
Toronto, Canada




________________________________________________________________________
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  deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War
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************************************************************************
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      Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
      #8086 From: john dziurzynski <jdziu@...>
      Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 8:05 pm
      Subject: Re: Re: overseas radio broadcasts       		januszek_06512
      Send Email Send Email
        
      I understand that it is possible to use a computer to tune in shortwave
or other types of broadcasts, i.e. radio Warsaw...I need help to do it.
Will a knowledgeable member be kind enough to assist? Dzieki. Janus
Africanus

________________________________________________________________
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      Reply | Messages in this Topic (5)
      #8087 From: chris bienkowski <chris_bienkowski@...>
      Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 8:09 pm
      Subject: Re: Population       		chris_bienko...
      Send Email Send Email
       
      I was responding to Jan's question about the population between the two world wars.
       
      Chris

      Paul Havers <paul.havers@...> wrote:
      That was in 1931, things have changed a bit
       
      Paul
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Population

      My understanding is that the 1931 census showed the following
      Poles 198,212 (63.5%)
      Ukrainians 35,137 (11.3%)
      Jews 75,316 (24.1%)
       
      Chris

      Paul Havers <haverp@...> wrote:

      City population: 0.794 million but this is all that I got, I can assume that not everyone wanted to take part in the census.
      As I've said this is from another group and I'm just passing on the information

      Paul

      At 12:33 01/02/2004, you wrote:
      Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
       
      Jan
       
      ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
      Van: Paul Havers
      Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
      Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
      Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

      Got this from another group, about Lwow

      Roughly translated

      During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave their Nationality as
      18948 classed themselves as Polish
      10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
      7771 classed as Ukrainian
      537 as Russian
      others 16

      The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more

      very interesting

      Paul

      ****************************************************************************
      KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
      "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
      deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
      ****************************************************************************
      Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
      Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
      Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
      ****************************************************************************
      To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
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        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
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        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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        Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
        #8088 From: Ryszard Antolak <r_antolak@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 3:00 am
        Subject: Re: overseas radio broadcasts         		antolak_r
        Send Email Send Email
         
         
        Dear John,
         
        If you have Windows Media Player,
        and want to listen to program 1 or program 3 of Polskie Radio (live)
         
        go to this link
         
         
        click the large "sluchaj w internecie" button on the upper left hand side.
        A small white screen will appear with the two options: program 1 or program 3.
        Click the one you wish. Turn the volume on your speakers up, and wait a couple of seconds as it connects. It's as easy as that.
         
        You can also hear recordings of some other Polish stations by clicking various other buttons at this site.
         
        Best Wishes,
         
        Ryszard Antolak
        Southern California

        john dziurzynski <jdziu@...> wrote:
        I understand that it is possible to use a computer to tune in shortwave
        or other types of broadcasts, i.e. radio Warsaw...I need help to do it.
        Will a knowledgeable member be kind enough to assist? Dzieki. Janus
        Africanus

        ________________________________________________________________
        The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
        Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
        Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!


        ****************************************************************************
        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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        Reply | Messages in this Topic (5)
        #8089 From: "Judi Schmidt" <judiblueyes@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 3:03 am
        Subject: Re: Polish-Soviet War         		jajs102
        Send Email Send Email
          
        This is a great link to find used and out of print books:

http://www.addall.com/Used/

I found 8 copies of the 'White Eagle, Red Star' at this site.

Judi



>From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
>Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
>To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Polish-Soviet War
>Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:10:20 +1100
>
>Henryk
>I have been trying to source a copy of this book for 2 years, and not even
>Norman Davies can get his hands on one for me.
>Hence I would appreciate any summaries you can furnish.
>--
>Stefan Wisniowski
>Sydney NSW Australia
>
>On 25 Jan 2004, at 14:41, henrysokolowski wrote:
>
>>Hello everyone,
>>I've just finished reading "White Eagle, Red Star." This is Norman
>>Davies' 1972 book which thoroughly describes the Polish-Soviet war
>>of 1919-1920.
>>...If anyone is interested, I can post a summary of events and
>>circumstances.
>>
>>Henryk

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        Reply | Messages in this Topic (9)
        #8090 From: "wkordas1" <wkordas1@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 4:06 am
        Subject: Forthcoming Publication of "The Polish Deportees of World War II"         		wkordas1
        Send Email Send Email
          
        "The Polish Deportees of World War II: Recollections of Removal to
the Soviet Union and Dispersal Throughout the World,"
by Tadeusz Piotrowski (Editor) [Hardcover:$45.00; 296 pages]
is to be released by the publisher, McFarland & Company, in the
spring of 2004.  Piotrowski's previous publications in this subject
area are not unknown to many of our group.  Below are a link to and
a description from the publisher's website.
-Bill Kordas, Goffstown, New Hampshire, USA

http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/action.lasso?-db=Promodat.fp3&-
lay=Viewing%20Layout&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-recid=33887&-find

"The Polish Deportees of World War II:  Recollections of Removal to
the Soviet Union and Dispersal Throughout the World,"
Edited by Tadeusz Piotrowski
ISBN: 0-7864-1847-8
[296]pp. notes, bibliography, index $45 illustrated case binding (7
x 10) 2004
"Among the great tragedies that befell Poland during World War II
was the forced deportation of its citizens by the Soviet Union
during its first occupation of that country between 1939 and 1941.

This is the story of that brutal Soviet ethnic-cleansing campaign
told in the words of some of the survivors. It is an unforgettable
human drama of excruciating martyrdom in the Gulag. For example, one
witness reports, 'a young woman who had given birth on a train threw
herself and her newborn under the wheels of another approaching
train.' Survivors also tell the story of events after the 'amnesty.'
'Our suffering is simply indescribable. We have spent weeks now
sleeping in lice-infested dirty rags in train stations,' wrote the
Milewski family. Details are also given on the non-European
countries that extended a helping hand to the exiles in their hour
of need.

Tadeusz Piotrowski is a professor of sociology at the University of
New Hampshire at Manchester and also the author of The Indian
Heritage of New Hampshire and Northern New England (2002, $39.95),
Genocide and Rescue in Wolyn (2000, $45), Poland's Holocaust (1998,
$55) and Vengeance of the Swallows (1995, $35). He lives in
Manchester, New Hampshire."

Not Yet Published, Available Spring 2004

This page and all its contents are ©McFarland & Company, Inc.,
Publishers, Box 611, Jefferson, North Carolina 28640, USA.
Telephone (336) 246-4460. Fax (336) 246-5018. All rights reserved.

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
        #8091 From: "olsz24" <olsz24@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 9:50 am
        Subject: Parcels to Siberia         		olsz24
        Send Email Send Email
          
        Hi all,
Some excerptions from recollections of my mother:
... Postolko family from Klewan moved to the forestry inspectorate Zwierzyniec
near Bialowieza. From there in year 1940 Russians deported them to Syberia
into Altaj Mountains. My parents when possible send them parcels with food
and clothing. Tadeusz and Wiktoria Postolko died there. Their daughter Basia
get married there. Their son Janusz after war, return to Poland. I try, but I
didn't manage to establish contact with him...
(Year later after execution of my grandfather and his brother.)
... In forestry distant few kilometers from Kostopol lived forester Tadeusz
Szypowski with his wife Maria and daughter Danusia. They were very nice
people. We did not see each other very often because of a distance. After
execution of my father and uncle they help a lot my mother and me. After war I
met them in Gdansk. When they moved out of Gdansk we lost contact....
.... Toward the end of November 1939 first transports of deportees were send
to Siberia. At first personnel of forestries, soldier settlers and army reserve
officers. Usually all foresters were deported but in our and near forestry
inspectorates soviets arrested and deported only groove keepers (gajowy)
We didn't know where they were taken until first letters arrived...

Henryk Dekker
Sydney, Australia

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
        #8092 From: United States Book Exchange <john@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 1:05 pm
        Subject: Re: Polish-Soviet War         		jayteazed
        Send Email Send Email
          
        A better source is

abe.com

There are currently three copies for sale at that site.

regards,

John Zubal'


On Feb 1, 2004, at 10:03 PM, Judi Schmidt wrote:

>
>
> This is a great link to find used and out of print books:
>
> http://www.addall.com/Used/
>
> I found 8 copies of the 'White Eagle, Red Star' at this site.
>
> Judi
>
>
>
>> From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
>> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
>> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Polish-Soviet War
>> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:10:20 +1100
>>
>> Henryk
>> I have been trying to source a copy of this book for 2 years, and not
>> even
>> Norman Davies can get his hands on one for me.
>> Hence I would appreciate any summaries you can furnish.
>> --
>> Stefan Wisniowski
>> Sydney NSW Australia
>>
>> On 25 Jan 2004, at 14:41, henrysokolowski wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> I've just finished reading "White Eagle, Red Star." This is Norman
>>> Davies' 1972 book which thoroughly describes the Polish-Soviet war
>>> of 1919-1920.
>>> ...If anyone is interested, I can post a summary of events and
>>> circumstances.
>>>
>>> Henryk
>
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        Reply | Messages in this Topic (9)
        #8093 From: "ghelon" <george@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 1:06 pm
        Subject: Help With Archival Document Translation         		ghelon
        Send Email Send Email
          
        Hi all,

I have a document relating to my family that I need translated [2
Pages]. About 99 percent of it is in Polish language, with a few
latin abbreviations.

If anyone can help, please respond directly: george@...

Thanks.

Wieslaw G. Helon
Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)
        #8094 From: Razel <razelsmith@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 2:18 pm
        Subject: Re: Help With Archival Document Translation         		razelsmith
        Send Email Send Email
         

        Hi Wieslaw!
         
        I could help with this translation, I speak polish so it would be no problem at all.
         
        Pozdrawiam!
         
        Gabriel.



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        Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)
        #8095 From: "bert_bakker41" <bert_bakker41@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 2:45 pm
        Subject: Re: Population         		bert_bakker41
        Send Email Send Email
          
        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Prygoda" <j.prygoda@c...>
wrote:
> Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it
much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
>
> Jan
>
> ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> Van: Paul Havers
> Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
> Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
> Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

>
> Got this from another group, about Lwow
> Roughly translated
> During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave
> their Nationality as
> 18948 classed themselves as Polish
> 10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
> 7771 classed as Ukrainian
> 537 as Russian
> others 16
> The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more
> very interesting

> Paul


Apparently, the main population figures for the city of Lwov
according to a census held in December 2001 were as follows:

Total population: 725,000
Ukrainians        639,000 (88.1%)
Russians           64,600 ( 8.9%)
Poles               6,400 ( 0.9%)
Byelorussians       3,100 ( 0.4%)
Jews                1,900 ( 0.3%)

Bert Bakker
Nelspruit
South Africa

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
        #8096 From: Anne Kaczanowski <annekaczanowski@...>
        Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 9:37 pm
        Subject: Re: Re: Population         		annekaczanowski
        Send Email Send Email
         
        I just spoke with my cousin in Lviv, and he said statistics say that the city has about 800,000 people, but with the students and people coming to Lviv to work from outerlying areas, it's closer to 1,000,000 people. I remember when I was there and they celebrated "dzien miasto', town celebration....he said that the city played host to almost 2,000,000 people who would come from all the outerlying villages.  This is just a comment made by someone who lives there .... 

        bert_bakker41 <bert_bakker41@...> wrote:
        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Prygoda" <j.prygoda@c...>
        wrote:
        > Does Lwow have only 35000-40000 inhabitants these days ? Wasn't it
        much bigger from 1918-1939 ?
        >
        > Jan
        >
        > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
        > Van: Paul Havers
        > Aan: Kresy-Siberia Group
        > Verzonden: zondag 1 februari 2004 13:14
        > Onderwerp: [Kresy-Siberia] Fwd: ciekawe dane

        >
        > Got this from another group, about Lwow
        > Roughly translated
        > During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave
        > their Nationality as
        > 18948 classed themselves as Polish
        > 10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
        > 7771 classed as Ukrainian
        > 537 as Russian
        > others 16
        > The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more
        > very interesting

        > Paul


        Apparently, the main population figures for the city of Lwov
        according to a census held in December 2001 were as follows:

        Total population: 725,000
        Ukrainians        639,000 (88.1%)
        Russians           64,600 ( 8.9%)
        Poles               6,400 ( 0.9%) 
        Byelorussians       3,100 ( 0.4%)
        Jews                1,900 ( 0.3%)

        Bert Bakker
        Nelspruit
        South Africa






        ****************************************************************************
        KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
        "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
        deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
        ****************************************************************************
        Discussion site : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
        Gallery (photos, documents) : http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/gallery/
        Film and info : http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
        ****************************************************************************
        To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
        saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
        Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
        ****************************************************************************



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        Reply | Messages in this Topic (7)
        #8097 From: "george_slawek" <gslawek@...>
        Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 12:54 am
        Subject: Re: Yalta: Peace - Power - Betrayal         		george_slawek
        Send Email Send Email
          
        --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, john dziurzynski <jdziu@j...>
wrote:
> I would like to see this "documetary" and do not get PBS, it is a
very
> hot topic. Janus Africanus
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

The below link will take you to an info page on this documentary
http://www.opb.org/programs/yalta/index.html

You can order tapes from:
http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1404985

Regards
George

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)
        #8098 From: Elzbieta Gurtler-Krawczynska <egurtle@...>
        Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 6:17 am
        Subject: Descendants of Polish patriots from Wilno and Lwow         		boncza2002
        Send Email Send Email
         
         Dear Group,  
        I received this letter from Poland. Is there any way to help         Polish Society of Carl Orff  to bring teachers from Wilno, Lwow and Kazakhstan  to Cracow (Krakow, Poland) for this Seminar.  Below text in English.
        Best regards to the wonderful group,
        Elzbieta Gurtler-Krawczynska from Atlanta

        List:

        Letter:
        Polish Society of Carl Orff         - Cracow (Krakow) Section is making an appeal for assistance in bringing Polish teachers, working for Catholic parish schools, from Lvov (Lwow) in Ukraine, Vilnius (Vilno) in Lithuania and Kazachastan to an international Orff music seminar in Cracow in June 2005.
        The teachers are the descendants of Polish patriots who were exiled forcibly by the Soviets.

        The seminar participants will be taught by internationally known lecturers from Finland  ( Prof. Soili Perkio ), Austria ( Prof. Urlike Jungmair, Prof. Coloman Kallos ), Czech Republic ( Dr Lenka Pospisilova ) and USA ( Prof. Jacquline Schrader ). The organizers of the seminar are we and the Mozart University of Salzburg, Austria.

        For the Polish teachers from Lvov, Vilno and Kazachstan we need to provide travel to Poland, housing and food for 6 days plus trips around Cracow. We invited 40 participants and we need $ 500 per person.

        Contributions should be sent to:

        Name of account:                                          Coloman Kallós  

                                                                                    Music education in Progress 

        International bank account number:        AT352040401509242991

        Name of Bank:                                                Salzburger Sparkasse

        Bank Identifier Code:                                    SBGSAT2S

         

        with additional notation as follows "for Polish teachers from Lvov, Vilno and Kazachstan – seminar  Cracow - 2005".

        Professor Coloman Kallos at University  Mozarteum of Salzburg, Austria, is handling all financial aspects.

        Please direct all inquiries to: orff@... and please send notice of any funds sent to the same email address or to:

         Polskie Towarzystwo Carla Orffa

        Oddzial Krakow

         ul. Sienkiewicza 2/9 

          30-333 Krakow

        Poland.

        Our society is equivalent to the american music organization AOSA.

        Thank you for your assistance.

        Malgorzata Stochel, President

         

        www.orffkrakow.republika.pl   
        Polskie Towarzystwo Carla Orffa - Oddział w Krakowie zwraca sie z apelem o pomoc w sfinansowaniu dla polskich nauczycieli z Lwowa, Wilna i Kazachstanu miedzynarodowego seminarium w Krakowie w lipcu 2005 r. Sa to potomkowie wywiezionych z Polski patriotów. Seminarium bedą prowadzić lektorzy z Finlandii, Austrii, Czech i USA. Chcemy pokryc im podróz do Polski, seminarium 6 dniowe, wyzywienie i zwiedzenie Krakowa i okolic. Organizatorem seminarium jestesmy my i Uniwersytet Mozarteum w Salzburgu. Prosimy Polonię o pomoc. Na jednego uczestnika potrzeba nam 500 dolarów.  Zaprosilismy 40 nauczycieli z polskich szkol powstalych przy polskich parafiach w Litwie, Ukrainie i Kazachstanie.  Wpłaty prosimy kierować na konto :
         

        Coloman Kallós, Bank Austria v Praze

        Č.ú. 7767814001/ 2700
         
        z dopiskiem : seminarium - Kraków- 2005 - dla nauczycieli polskich z Lwowa, Wilna i Kazachstanu.  Prof. Coloman Kallos - z Uniwersytetu w Salzburgu zajmuje sie caloscia spraw finansowych.
        Prosimy kierować wszelkie pytania na adres : orff@...
        Bardzo, bardzo serdecznie Wam dziękujemy. O dokonanych wpłatach prosimy informować nas na adres e-mail lub :
        Polskie Towarzystwo Carla Orffa
        30-033 Kraków, Sienkiewicza 2/9
        jesteśmy tym - czym w USA jest  muzyczna organizacja AOSA.
        Dziekujemy. Małgorzata Stochel - przewodniczaca



        Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
        #8099 From: "milicz" <milicz@...>
        Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 7:47 pm
        Subject: Re: Fwd: ciekawe dane         		milicz
        Send Email Send Email
          
        I guess you mean that of the 18,948 who class themselves as Poles,
7,771 classed Ukrainian as their mother tongue, and so on, right?
When I visited Lwow a few years back I met quite a few people who
stated that they were Polish, I wouldn't be surprised if that number
was actually higher.

Lukasz

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Paul Havers <haverp@c...> wrote:
> Got this from another group, about Lwow
>
> Roughly translated
>
> During a census in 2001 in Ukraine the population of Lwow gave
their
> Nationality as
> 18948 classed themselves as Polish
> 10596 classed Polish as their mother tongue
> 7771 classed as Ukrainian
> 537 as Russian
> others 16
>
> The pages are in Ukrainian so I can't translate more
>
> very interesting
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> >Przypadkiem natknelam sie na cos takiego:
> >Wedlug przeprowadzanego w 2001 r. na Ukrainie spisu ludnosci we
Lwowie
> >18948 osób okreslilo sie jako Polacy. Z tego jako jezyk rodzony
polski
> >podalo 10596 osob, ukrainski 7771, rosyjski 537, inny 16 .
> >
> >Wiecej danych z tego spisu na http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/
> >
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> All outgoing messages are certified Virus Free
> Scanned by Norton Anti Virus 2003 - www.sarc.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)
        #8100 From: "Michael Monastyrskyj" <monastyrskyj@...>
        Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 9:14 pm
        Subject: The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919-21         		monastyrskyj
        Send Email Send Email
          
        I came across this description of a book about the alliance between
Pilsudski and and Petliura.

Michael Monastyrskyj
Toronto, Canada

www.utoronto.ca/cius/publications/books/ukrainianpolishdefensivealliance.htm

http://makeashorterlink.com/?E67012A47

Michael Palij

The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919-1921:An Aspect of
the Ukrainian Revolution
viii, 391 pp. 2 maps
$44.95 (cloth) | Order

About the Book

Michael Palij introduces the English-language reader and students of
history to a relatively little-known aspect of the revolutionary upheavals
that engulfed Ukraine, Poland, and Russia after the First World War. He
presents the biographies of two national leaders-Symon Petliura ofthe
Ukrainian People's Republic's and Józef Pilsudski-before focusing on those
countries' military conflicts, diplomatic relations, and subsequent alliance
against their common enemy, Soviet Russia. Dr. Palij acquaints us with the
details of the military and diplomatic history of Ukraine and Poland in the
years 1919-21.

He recounts the war of 1918-19 in Galicia between Poland and the
Western Ukrainian People's Republic and the competing political conceptions
of Poland's role in Eastern Europe. After providing a thorough discussion of
the Treaty of Warsaw and the resulting anti-Bolshevik military alliance
between Petliura and Pilsudski, the author proceeds to a detailed
examination of the joint Ukrainian-Polish military offensive against Soviet
Russia, the causes of its failure, and the subsequent Soviet offensive in
Poland and its defeat. The author presents the Ukrainian perspective on
Poland's betrayal of Ukraine with the aim of securing its position vis-ŕ-vis
Russia. Negotiations leading up to the Soviet-Polish Treaty of Riga and the
treaty itself are elaborated.

The study concludes with a description of the last phase of the
Ukrainian military struggle for independence from Russia, Ukrainian émigré
efforts to continue the struggle in the international diplomatic arena,
Petliura's assassination by a Soviet agent in Paris, and the trial and
acquittal of his assailant. Dr. Palij's monograph is based on years of
meticulous research in the published sources, most of them in Ukrainian,
Polish, and Russian. The book contains an impressive 120-page bibliography.
The Ukrainian-Polish Alliance will be of great value not only to students of
Eastern Europe, but also to anyone who wants to understand the situation
there today.

About the Author
Michael Palij recently retired from his position as a Slavic librarian at
the University of Kansas. He received his Ph.D. in history there in 1971. He
is also the author of The Anarchism of Nestor Makhno, 1918-1921: An Aspect
of the Ukrainian Revolution (1976).

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)
        #8101 From: john dziurzynski <jdziu@...>
        Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 10:15 pm
        Subject: Re: Re: overseas radio broadcasts         		januszek_06512
        Send Email Send Email
          
        Ryszard Antolak...thanks for the info-it works like a charm. What about
other places as Bielarus? Thanks again. Janus Africanus

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (5)
        #8102 From: "henrysokolowski" <hsokol@...>
        Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 5:35 am
        Subject: Re: The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919-21         		henrysokolowski
        Send Email Send Email
          
        Coincidentally, the University of Kansas is also the home base for
Anna Cienciala, a well known Poland scholar and member of the board
of PIASA: http://www.piasa.org

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Monastyrskyj"
<monastyrskyj@s...> wrote:
> I came across this description of a book about the alliance between
> Pilsudski and and Petliura.
>
> Michael Monastyrskyj
> Toronto, Canada
>
>
www.utoronto.ca/cius/publications/books/ukrainianpolishdefensiveallia
nce.htm
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?E67012A47
>
> Michael Palij
>
> The Ukrainian-Polish Defensive Alliance, 1919-1921:An Aspect of
> the Ukrainian Revolution
> viii, 391 pp. 2 maps
> $44.95 (cloth) | Order
>
.
>
> About the Author
> Michael Palij recently retired from his position as a Slavic
librarian at
> the University of Kansas. He received his Ph.D. in history there
in 1971. He
> is also the author of The Anarchism of Nestor Makhno, 1918-1921:
An Aspect
> of the Ukrainian Revolution (1976).

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)
        #8103 From: Paul Havers <paul.havers@...>
        Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 12:45 pm
        Subject: 14 Ulani Jazlowieccy         		paul.havers@...
        Send Email Send Email
         
        this might jolt a few memories


        http://www.naszdziennik.pl/index.php?typ=cz&dat=20040204&id=main



...starszy ulan rezerwy Franciszek Materna, który byl zolnierzem 14.
Pulku
Ulanów Jazlowieckich we Lwowie.
        Paul

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Paul Havers
        Director
        PMH Wines Ltd
        22 Kingsmead
        Farnborough
        Hants, GU14 7RT
        (00 44) (0) 1252 544880
        www.pmhwines.co.uk

        Life's too short for boring wine.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


        Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
        #8104 From: "linderladbrooke" <ladbrooke@...>
        Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 1:23 pm
        Subject: Hopeful trip to Ukraine         		linderladbrooke
        Send Email Send Email
          
        Has anyone ever been to Lviv, and village 50 miles west [near
border], with a wheelchair? Any advice on Lviv Airport, hotels [en-
suite needed], safety tips, do we need a car + driver? Not
with 'tour' please + can't speak the language. Not an easy trip, but
must see family I've found! Please reply to 'ladbrooke@...

Thanks everyone
Linder

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)
        #8105 From: Paul Havers <paul.havers@...>
        Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 2:30 pm
        Subject: Appeal         		paul.havers@...
        Send Email Send Email
         
                Hi all

        I have been contacted by a member of the committee of Glos Podola. They are appealing for donations for building a monument to all
        Podolians who were killed by the Germans, Soviets & Ukrainians. The monument will be in Poland either in Wroclaw or Warsaw.

        Any amount would be warmly and gratefully received.

        I will pass on the details of the bank etc, as soon as get home

        Paul

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Paul Havers
        Director
        PMH Wines Ltd
        22 Kingsmead
        Farnborough
        Hants, GU14 7RT
        (00 44) (0) 1252 544880
        www.pmhwines.co.uk

        Life's too short for boring wine.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


        Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
        #8106 From: "John Roy" <polish@...>
        Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 5:00 pm
        Subject: (Fwd) Zmiana adresu strony.         		janekroy
        Send Email Send Email
          
        Stefan who is our person today to fix this problem?

Janek


------- Forwarded message follows -------
Moja strona zmienila adres:
  z - http://fire.us.wroc.pl/biorytm/
na - http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/
Pomimo wielu wystapien do Pana Stefana Wisniowskiego o
sprostowanie.
Brak reakcji ?????? nie moge zrozumiec.? Na stronie:
www.aforgottenodyssey.com pod strona:
http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/links.html odsyla na moj stary nie
istniejacy adres. "Rodzina Czapskich"  co jest przyczyna.??
   Pozdrawiam.
ps.Mamy praktycznie juz wiosne +10 stopni.
W.S.Czapski


  ---------ooo-(.)(.)-ooo---------
  INFO SERVICE POLAND (1981)Mr. W.S.  CZAPSKI
   50-983 WROCLAW 14            P.O.BOX  1954
TEL/FAX/BBS:+48 (71) 3383838
      mobile:+48 (601) 511109
      e-mail:biorytm@...
NOWA adres http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/
17;00;00,00" E    51;05;24,24" N
Offices moving = Biura ruchome24h
Exchange :voice, text, fax, foto, video, e-mail, internt, SMS.GPS itp
Obi amy koszt /do zera bezp atnie/ i czas wymiany informacji 24h.
Prosz  w "Temat" korespondencji wpisa  streszczenie-dostan  SMS do
kom˘rki natychmiast te  bezp atnie.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>-:)end


------- End of forwarded message -------
John Roy-Wojciechowski
Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
e-mail polish@...  website www.polishheritage.co.nz

John Roy-Wojciechowski
Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
e-mail polish@...  website www.polishheritage.co.nz

        Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)
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