Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism

The many excellent posts on this topic have persuaded me that one's ethnicity is a matter of personal choice, sort of "ethnicity is where the heart is." Additionally, I am persuaded that the definition of ethnicity is itself largely a matter of personal choice. There are so many ways to approach it that one must be careful to understand what a particular author or poster means with reference to "ethnicity". He may or may not be using it to mean what I understand it to mean.

Anna, you made that point convincingly in your post several days ago when you said, "There are a myriad of theories that you can choose from and the academic arguments continue but I use this definition to start with: ethnicity means the status of belonging to a particular group having a common cultural tradition..."

Thank you also for your recommendation about Snyder's THE RECONSTRUCTION OF NATIONS: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus 1569-1999. It's on my reading list. Snyder was at times confused and inconsistent about the Kresy in Bloodlands, but he went a lot farther than many other historians to set the record straight for mass audiences.

I am also grateful, though still a bit shocked, to see examples posted of people blaming Poland for events during periods of occupation by Germany and the USSR, including during what the West regards as the "post-war" period in Poland after 1945. Seeing Gomulka put forward as a sovereign Polish leader, for example, is almost funny when it is so obvious that he was a marionette whose strings were pulled by Moscow.

Such testimonials are as surprising as those from people who say that Poles were worse than Germans during the occupation although it was Germans who held the guns and conceived, built and maintained the industrial killing machine that murdered 6 million Jews along with millions of Polish Roman Catholics who are now somehow being blamed for the system that killed them, too.

Stan, I especially appreciate your posts on such matters as false documents and propaganda. As you say, the West has plenty of examples. However, it looks to me as though the Soviets are still the masters of this domain with such illustrations as Katyn (for which Germans were long blamed thanks to Soviet propaganda) and ethnic cleansing in the Kresy after 1939 and again after 1945 (for which Poland is still being blamed according to your own account). Not only are common folk deluded, but so are exceptionally well-educated individuals whom one might expect to be more discerning about Soviet distortions since they are so aware of distortions by others. The success of the Soviet efforts is especially evident in how widely the lies persist more than two decades - a whole generation - after the Soviet Union dissolved.

Your posts paint Putin in a new light. I thought that because his Russian government continues to hide Soviet crimes (such as refusing to publicly release all the documents related to the Katyn murders) he was essentially an heir to the Soviet system who is maintaining it under a new name. But now I wonder if he might be trying to set straight the historical record but it is too big a challenge to do overnight, after generations of official propaganda, education and historical revisionism. It is not as easy for him to change course as it was for Stalin, when after years of denouncing the Germans he painted Germany and Hitler in glowing terms in August 1939 just before joining hands to invade and partition Poland. After almost two years of "the Germans are our brothers in eternal friendship", in mid-1941 he reversed that tune 180 degrees in a heartbeat again. Putin does not have the ability to manipulate the Russian people so easily in this day and age when the distortions have been set strongly in the populace for more than half a century.

Because of Putin walking down the Soviet path, it seemed reasonable to continue using "Soviet" and "Russian" interchangeably as Churchill and Roosevelt did in the 1940s. You objected to that and pointed out that the Russian people suffered as much as or more than other people under Soviet tyranny. I believe that, which makes it so much harder to understand how any Russian can defend the Soviet distortions in 2013.

I hope you will continue to post such assertions because they offer us a window into another world where up is down and left is right. I promise that I am not laughing at these bizarre-sounding declarations: they are serious and seriously believed by a lot of people, and it does us no good to pretend that if we brush them off they will go away. Just believing that truth must prevail does not make it so - ask the people who saw their fathers being led away by the NKVD in the 1940s and were told by those fathers not to worry because they were not guilty of anything and would soon be back home. They were never seen again, and neither will the truth be known if we let preposterous misrepresentations stand here unchallenged.

Lest anyone get the mistaken idea that I am somehow putting down the Russian people as being exceptionally gullible, let me say vigorously that I am not. We have recently seen several posts observing that the Poland and the Poles of today are not what their parents and grandparents remember, and that is no doubt largely because of their education system still strongly influenced by the decades of official communist declarations and curriculum. The same kind of confusion pertains in the West, at least in my part of Canada. I went through school and consumed popular media causing me to swallow the Western version of history hook, line and sinker: the war began in 1941 with Russia as an Ally (though it was the Americans and British who beat the Nazis) and Poland was a bunch of fools who sent men on horseback with swords and lances against German armour. It wasn't until a few years ago that I found a different narrative being exposed not just by my parents and their Polish friends, but also the likes of historians such as Norman Davies, Laurence Rees, Niall Ferguson and Timothy Snyder. My education has really just begun, and I will always be grateful to members of this group for their own insights and their recommendations for historical sources.

John Halucha

Sault Ste Marie, Canada

From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:00:48 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Dear Zenon!

You refer to any documents that you have not read, but only heard about them. They will have been demonstrated. You do not like the Soviets. Next logical chain shorting yourself. That's all.

And I will bear witness to the words of those Ukrainians (I have a friend of this family), who were evicted from their homes and sent to the Soviet Ukraine. They have many more reasons not to like the Soviet power than you. So none of them this power did not blame - and blamed Poland represented Gomulka.

In my opinion, after Stalin's death should not so much to demonize and exaggerate by the Soviet government. And do not believe all that different documents - such as that in Iraq at the time found chemical weapons, or the "fact" that Poland had attacked Germany (reason for the outbreak of war) - there were also so-called documents. Or the "fact" that Germans killed Poles in Katyn - these so-called documents even more than those who claim otherwise.

If you are in the 1955 brick fell on your head, this is also not necessary to accuse the Soviet regime. If it was so strong, we would not be sitting at computer.

Stan from M.

From: Zenon Kuzik <zenon.kuzik@...>
To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Dear Stas,

Although Communist Poles, puppets of Moscow, implemented Akcja Wisla, the proposal to do so came from the Soviet authorities. This was demonstrated in documents released a few years ago, and my father read about it in a Ukrainian paper, published in Melbourne, Australia. Incidentally, when the uprooting of the Lemkos and other Rusyns/Ruthenians/Ukrainians began, initially the victims were sent across the border to Soviet Ukraine, to now-empty villages whose former Polish inhabitants had been "repatriated" to the "Recovered Territories".

Best wishes,

Zenon Kuzik

New Zealand

From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Zenon!

I think you are wrong in attributing clean Lemko and Rusyns to the hand of Moscow.
Similarly, the wrong ones that attributing a critical reduction of Polish population around Vilnius to the hand of Moscow.

It was pure Polish case.
It was a kind of ethnic cleansing, but soft. Its leader was Gomulka, and it is known to many residents of Kresy - especially those who lived near Lvov and Bialystok.
Moscow's position after 1953 and up to 1985 in relation to the different nations and nationalities was, I think, quite appropriate. We (in the Soviet Union) felt no humiliation to nation.

Moreover, if anyone humiliated, it's Russian - but it is not topic of our group.

Stan from M.

#54552

From: John Halucha <john.halucha@...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:03 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

john.halucha

Magnificent, Stefan! Congratulations - I bet "w Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie" is easy for you to say.

One thing that might catch the ear of listeners in Poland was your use of Stryjek. When I visited there a couple of years ago my younger relatives told me that was quaint, and now uncles on both sides of the family are called Wujek. But my last living Stryj will remain Stryj to me.

Your broad vocabulary is impressive. As another member of the diaspora brought up in Canada, I wish I could speak half as well as you do.

John Halucha

Sault Ste Marie, Canada

From: "stefan.wisniowski@..." <stefan.wisniowski@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia Group <kresy-siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:17:01 AM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

Click on the following link if you would like to hear my recent radio interview about Kresy-Siberia, broadcast in Polish on Australia's SBS Special Broadcasting Service, on 7 January 2013. Please do not be too critical of my attempt at the language!

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/polish/highlight/page/id/249096/t/Foundation-Kresy-Syberia

#54553

From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:27 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

zwierzinski1957

Dear John,

Yes, I almost agree with you!
Just do not now see in Russian enemies of civilization.

Many of the facts revealed in the last time. Sometimes I get scared and wonder how a nation at all in 1939-45 did not tear each other.
What was a terrible war of 1918-20! How many people died for Kresy!

Look at these pictures (women do not advise).

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/zbiwol1961/view/87747/?page=0#preview

I do not understand - all have enough land, even in abundance (in Belarus), why would kill others just because they have a different nationality. Many of the commander of legions were officers and generals of Tsarl army, have served Empire. Its collapsed - and to hell with it! Build your house.

But no - Bolsheviks went to Kresy, where they were not wanted - there was not even little base for communism.

Bolshevism-communism in its nature is incredibly aggressive. It was not close in national framework, it always wanted to "make happy" if not all of humanity, at least the neighbors.

It's like I obsessively pursues any idea to make people happy. I myself be happy", now I want be happy my neighbor. But the neighbor did not want! Nothing, I say, we will force.

We do this to him an offer he can not refuse.

I think origins of deportations and executions of 1939-41 are at that time, 1918-20. In the monstrous hatred, which gave the spill.

And of course, not quite sound policy of the Polish central government in relation to Kresy - as a secondary site. See photos of the early 1930's, small-towns Kresy - very poor, everywhere mud puddles. Such in central Poland was not.
If the power developed Kresy, then there would be a total humiliation came from Belarusian (less) and Ukrainians (more) to Poles. They were even more depressed.

I believe that Putin is now at the point of bifurcation. Where will the Russian history - no one now can say.

As for the archives, especially Katyn - trust me and my friends -historians - almost nothing left, everything is destroyed bastard Khrushchev in 50's. He was a murderer, certainly not like Stalin, but mass. He was covering his tracks.

Stan.

From: John Halucha <john.halucha@...>
To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

John Halucha

Sault Ste Marie, Canada

Dear Stas,

Best wishes,

Zenon Kuzik

New Zealand

#54554

From: "Lenarda Szymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:16 pm
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=aBEAnty9ALUC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=polish+deportations+pre+1936&source=bl&ots=UDsgmMYLZT&sig=n3MLhxR_kXHBxNtVnm_GECuSZR0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XsJUf7bKc7mmAWs2YGADA&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCTgK

Stan and John, this is very sad, because the Polish people that perished, my extended family, including my grandfather taken by NKVD 1937, who was in Czar Cavalry WWI and settled on Crown Land, with Grandmothers family from Plock and those taken from 1932 – 1939, because they were on Russian Soil, after the Riga Treaty of 1921, nothing or very little is known and no one is looking, but close to 160,000? If not more were lost, deported, murdered and there are no records, they are the forgotten people, because Khrushchev destroyed all records in 1950 and they were not on Polish soil at the time.

A section from Google book (free to read) with some reference to these people

Cross-Cultural Competence

By Sławomir Magala

Lenarda, Australia

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stanislaw Zwierzynski
Sent: Thursday, 31 January, 2013 5:28 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Look at these pictures (women do not advise).

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/zbiwol1961/view/87747/?page=0#preview

But no - Bolsheviks went to Kresy, where they were not wanted - there was not even little base for communism.

John Halucha

Sault Ste Marie, Canada

Dear Stas,

Although Communist Poles, puppets of Moscow, implemented Akcja Wisla, the proposal to do so came from the Soviet authorities. This was demonstrated in documents released a few years ago, and my father read about it in a Ukrainian paper, published in Melbourne, Australia. Incidentally, when the uprooting of the Lemkos and other Rusyns/Ruthenians/Ukrainians began, initially the victims were sent across the border to Soviet Ukraine, to now-empty villages whose former Polish inhabitants had been "repatriated" to the "Recovered Territories".

Best wishes,

Zenon Kuzik

New Zealand

#54555

From: Carol Dove <stashaok@...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:20 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

stashaok

Hello Group,

Wanted to say to John, Well said.

Carol Dove

Connecticut, USA

From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
To: "Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com" <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Look at these pictures (women do not advise).

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/zbiwol1961/view/87747/?page=0#preview

But no - Bolsheviks went to Kresy, where they were not wanted - there was not even little base for communism.

John Halucha

Sault Ste Marie, Canada

Dear Stas,

Best wishes,

Zenon Kuzik

New Zealand

#54556

From: "Elzunia/Elizabeth Gradosielska/Maczka" <elzunia@...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:46 pm
Subject: Re: SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

elzuniao

I agree, well-done Stefan! your fluency and accent are impressive and have
improved so much since the earlier interviews. But then we know that you are
such a clever, talented guy! who has made what seemed like an impossible dream
come true - congratulations!

pozdrowienia
Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
Sweden

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, John Halucha  wrote:
>
> Magnificent, Stefan! Congratulations - I bet "w Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz
brzmi w trzcinie" is easy for you to say.
> One thing that might catch the ear of listeners in Poland was your use of
Stryjek. When I visited there a couple of years ago my younger relatives told me
that was quaint, and now uncles on both sides of the family are called Wujek.
But my last living Stryj will remain Stryj to me.
> Your broad vocabulary is impressive. As another member of the diaspora brought
up in Canada, I wish I could speak half as well as you do.
>
> John Halucha
> Sault Ste Marie, Canada
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: "stefan.wisniowski@..."
> To: Kresy-Siberia Group
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:17:01 AM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7
Jan 2013
>
>
>  
> Click on the following link if you would like to hear my recent radio
interview about Kresy-Siberia, broadcast in Polish on Australia's SBS Special
Broadcasting Service, on 7 January 2013. Please do not be too critical of my
attempt at the language!
> >
> >
>
>http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/polish/highlight/page/id/249096/t/Foundation\
-Kresy-Syberia 
> >
> >
> _
>

#54557

From: Anne Kaczanowski <kazameena@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:33 am
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

kazameena

Wow I must certainly compliment you as well Stefan.....Your Polish is much easier and cleaner to understand than the interviewer's. I understand now, what my Mom said for years about how much the Polish language changed to the point that it was difficult to understand today's native speakers. It is like a lost art to the old native speakers and perhaps an unknown art to today's people of Poland whose language changed with time. This again was just one more thing that was frozen in time when our parents had to leave Poland,. They taught us their language as it was when they left and so hopefully those that remain fluent can pass on what it used to sound like. The old Polish had a much nicer ( czysty) sound for sure. Congratulations!!

hania

From: Elzunia/Elizabeth Gradosielska/Maczka <elzunia@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 4:46:40 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

I agree, well-done Stefan! your fluency and accent are impressive and have improved so much since the earlier interviews. But then we know that you are such a clever, talented guy! who has made what seemed like an impossible dream come true - congratulations!

pozdrowienia
Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
Sweden

--- In mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com, John Halucha wrote:
>
> Magnificent, Stefan! Congratulations - I bet "w Szczebrzeszynie chrzÄ…szcz brzmi w trzcinie" is easy for you to say.
> One thing that might catch the ear of listeners in Poland was your use of Stryjek. When I visited there a couple of years ago my younger relatives told me that was quaint, and now uncles on both sides of the family are called Wujek. But my last living Stryj will remain Stryj to me.
> Your broad vocabulary is impressive. As another member of the diaspora brought up in Canada, I wish I could speak half as well as you do.
>
> John Halucha
> Sault Ste Marie, Canada
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "stefan.wisniowski@..."
> To: Kresy-Siberia Group
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:17:01 AM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013
>
>
> Â
> Click on the following link if you would like to hear my recent radio interview about Kresy-Siberia, broadcast in Polish on Australia's SBS Special Broadcasting Service, on 7 January 2013. Please do not be too critical of my attempt at the language!
> >
> >
> >http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/polish/highlight/page/id/249096/t/Foundation-Kresy-SyberiaÂ
> >
> >
> _
>

#54558

From: "Lucyna Artymiuk" <lucynaartymiuk@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:16 am
Subject: number in the military forces

lucyna_98

Does anyone have the numbers in each of the polish armed forces

I know airforce was 17500

What about navy, 2^nd corpus,. Carpathian brigade and parachustists

Thanks

Lucyna

Reply | Messages in this Topic (10)

#54559

From: Zenon Kuzik <zenon.kuzik@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:41 am
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

zenon.kuzik

Dear Rysiu,

Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...

My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.

Greetings from a sweltering NZ,

Zenon Kuzik

From: ryszardsys <ryszardsys@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Zenon,

I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".

I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.

Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
>
> Dear Rysiu,
>
> At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
>
> Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
>
> Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
>
> Zenon Kuzik
> New Zealand
>
> From: ryszardsys
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
>
>
>
> I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
>
> Not for the faint hearted.
>
> Rys
> UK

#54560

From: martin stepek <mstepek@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:02 am
Subject: Re: number in the military forces

martinstepek

Lucyna

The Polish Navy was very small. Only 4,500. I know this because I have about a dozen to twenty photos of my father and naval friends and colleagues, most of whose identities I don’t know. If I get the time I’d like to set up a kind of “Search for wartime Polish sailors photographs” website. This would allow families of WW2 Polish Navy personnel to put up their photos and search others’ to see if they can find previously unknown photos of their relatives. After all if I have photos of Polish sailors in my possession it suggests that others will have photos of my father in their possession. Anyone who could help set this up please get in touch because I have the vision but neither the time nor the expertise to do it properly.

I wonder if anyone has any stats on the number of Siberiaks who ended up being transferred to the navy. My Dad joined Anders Army on 10th Feb 1942 at Kermine, contracted typhus so couldn’t leave with the vast majority of the troops, eventually left in August 1942, promptly contracted dysentery twice then malaria so spend from August 42 to January 43 in hospital in Teheran before rejoining Anders in Basra, Iraq. There he promptly fell ill again. At that point a friend told him the Navy were recruiting and Dad thought of it as a way to leave the Middle-East and its tropical diseases. By March he was in Kirkcaldy here in Scotland training before being transferred to Poland Naval HQ near Plymouth. For the next two years he served as radar operator on Polish ships in Sicily, Italy (including pounding around Monte Cassino to distract the enemy from defending it in greater numbers), D-Day in Normandy and finally Germany itself.

I think his war was quite rare for a Syberiak and would be interested to learn if there are many - any? - other examples of transferences of survivors of Siberia spending the war in the navy rather than army or civilian life.

Martin Stepek

Author, For There is Hope

“tender and impassioned, it should be on every table where Poland is discussed and the brave dead remembered” Neal Ascherson

Available from Amazon, Waterstones or directly from the publishers www.ettadunn.com

Sent from Windows Mail

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#54561

From: "Lenarda Szymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:27 am
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

Stefan, congratulations, great interview, I agree with what Elzunia has said, you made an impossible dream come true.\

Lenarda, Australia

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Elzunia/Elizabeth Gradosielska/Maczka
Sent: Thursday, 31 January, 2013 10:47 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

I agree, well-done Stefan! your fluency and accent are impressive and have improved so much since the earlier interviews. But then we know that you are such a clever, talented guy! who has made what seemed like an impossible dream come true - congratulations!

pozdrowienia
Elzunia Gradosielska Olsson
Sweden

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, John Halucha wrote:
>
> Magnificent, Stefan! Congratulations - I bet "w Szczebrzeszynie chrz�…szcz brzmi w trzcinie" is easy for you to say.
> One thing that might catch the ear of listeners in Poland was your use of Stryjek. When I visited there a couple of years ago my younger relatives told me that was quaint, and now uncles on both sides of the family are called Wujek. But my last living Stryj will remain Stryj to me.
> Your broad vocabulary is impressive. As another member of the diaspora brought up in Canada, I wish I could speak half as well as you do.
>
> John Halucha
> Sault Ste Marie, Canada
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "stefan.wisniowski@..."
> To: Kresy-Siberia Group
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:17:01 AM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013
>
>
> �
> Click on the following link if you would like to hear my recent radio interview about Kresy-Siberia, broadcast in Polish on Australia's SBS Special Broadcasting Service, on 7 January 2013. Please do not be too critical of my attempt at the language!
> >
> >
> >http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/polish/highlight/page/id/249096/t/Foundation-Kresy-Syberia�
> >
> >
> _
>

#54562

From: Basia <basia@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:41 am
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

basiazielins...

Congratulations Stefan.

Very well spoken

Basia

From: <stefan.wisniowski@...>
Reply-To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:17:01 -0700
To: Kresy-Siberia Group <kresy-siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: {Disarmed} [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] SBS Radio interview about Kresy-Siberia - 7 Jan 2013

Click on the following link if you would like to hear my recent radio interview about Kresy-Siberia, broadcast in Polish on Australia's SBS Special Broadcasting Service, on 7 January 2013. Please do not be too critical of my attempt at the language!

http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/polish/highlight/page/id/249096/t/Foundation-Kresy-Syberia

SBS Audio and Language : Polish : Highlight: Foundation-Kresy-Syberia

Source: sbs.com.au

O Fundacji opowiada jej zalożyciel i prezes pan Stefan Wiśniowski.

Best regards

Stefan Wisniowski
SYDNEY AUSTRALIA

#54563

From: Basia <basia@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:45 am
Subject: Research Sources

basiazielins...

-What an extraordinary list.

Thank you-

Basia Zielinska (Sydney)

From: Julek <jayplowy@...>
Reply-To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:59:55 -0000
To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: {Disarmed} [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Research Sources

To All:

I as many of us are always trying to find information on our families. I found this list of resources used by an individual researching his family and hope this list will help some of us find the some of the information we are seeking.

Please review the entire list it is quite extensive and covers web links, articles, archives and books.

Happy detective work!

Julek

The most commonly used source
Abbreviations
o [AAL] Lublin Archdiocese Archives
o [AD] Diocesan Archives - General stands with the Diocese
o [ADK] Archive OO Polish Province. Dominicans in Cracow
o [AGAD] Central Archives of Historical Records - London
o [AP] State Archives - General shortcut with the name of the branch. Also, some foreign archives, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Lithuanian
o [AGZ] town and county records
o [AZP] Przemyskie Earth Records
o [BHW] R. Marciniak, Boksa M., Luczak M., Bibliography of the history of Greater Poland, PTPN Library, Poznan 2005
o [BJ] Jagiellonian Library in Krakow
o [BN] National Library in Warsaw
o [Bon.] Adam Boniecki, Armorial Polish, Warsaw, 1899-1914, printed reprint WAiF Warsaw 1965, edition of the electronic ed. and ed.Richard Jurzak, Bielsko-Biala 2002; reprint WAiF Warsaw 1985. electronic edition, ed. and index. Marek Jerzy Minakowski, ed.Electronic Publications Minakowski Dr. Krakow 2002;
o [Bork.] George Sewer Dunin-Borkowski, Yearbook of Polish nobles, Lviv 1881.
o [CDIAL] Central State Historical Archives - Lviv (college berdnardyńskie)
o [CPAH] Central State Historical Archives - Lviv (college berdnardyńskie)
o [CGIA] Central State Historical Archive in St. Petersburg - ob. Russian State Historical Archives
o [CSUI] work. tank. p.red. Feet K., Corpus studiosorum Universitis Iagellonicae, Publishing Society "Iagellonica history", Cracow 2008-2012
o [CzOGA] Czitinskij oblastnoj Gosudarstvennye Archives
o [Well.] Peter Gałkowski, Genealogy landowners Dobrzyń nineteenth and twentieth centuries (until 1939), p. Dobrzyń Museum Rypin 1997
o [Dworzecki ...] Jan Peter Dworzecki-Bohdanowicz, Armorial Lithuanian nobility - the manuscript - Lietuvos Valstybės Istorijos Archyvas Vilnius f 391, 2789 9.SVT apyraso
o [GL (date)] Lviv newspaper (date of issue, or number)
o [Gaio] Gosudarstvennye Archives in Irkutsk oblast Irkustkoj
o [GAOO] Gosudarstvennye Archives in Orenburg oblast Orenburgskoj
o [GAOdO] Gosudarstvennye Archives in Odessa oblast Odesskoj
o [Gapo] Gosudarstvennye Archives in Perm oblast Permskoj
o [GARF] Gosudarstvennye Rosijskoj Fiederacji Archives in Moscow
o [GATO] Gosudarstvennye Archives in Tomsk oblast Tomskoj
o [Clay] Teki Glinka, National Centre for Research and Documentation of Monuments in Warsaw
o [Worse.] Work. tank. p.red. Górzyńskiego S., "Regestr Diecezjów" Francis Czaykowskiego or landowners in the crown of 1783-1784 (footnotes Chłapowski K. and S. Górzyński), DiG Warsaw 2009
o [Armorial Kurland ...] Lackschewitz Class, Prussia-Niewiadomski Andrew Lecznewski Thomas Wolf von Buchholtz year., Genealogien kurlandisch-ritterschaftlicher Geschlechter, Kurlandiche Ritterschaft 2004
o [IHPAN] Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences
o [Index ...] The index of the Repressed, Information Center Polish citizens repressed in the Soviet Union, Centre for SAFETY
o [JKzM] George Kluza information from Myszków
o [JPDB] Jan Peter Dworzecki-Bohdanowicz, Armorial Lithuanian nobility - the manuscript - Lietuvos Valstybės Istorijos Archyvas Vilnius f 391, 2789 9.SVT apyraso
o [CARD] CARD Center - Index repressed, www.karta.org.pl
o [KEK] E. Kozlowski, Files January Uprising, collections of the Institute of History (base enriched with numerous other collections, as well as extracts from foreign archives)
o ["CC"] Rafal T Prinke, Andrzej Sikorski "Royal Blood" 1997 Poznan
o [Kos] Adam Amilkar Kosinski - Heraldic Guide, dozens of monographs znakomitszych families, inventory and senatorial families with honorary titles, ON. L. Anczyca and Sp., Kraków 1877
o [Koss] Stanislaw Kazimierz Kossakowski - Genealogy Historical Monographs some Polish families T.1-3
o [Kro.] Casimir Pulaski, Polish noble families Chronicle Podolia, Volhynia and Ukraine, Bookstore Felix West, Brody 1911
o [Who] Who is Who in Poland, founded by Ralph Hubner, Issue IV 2005, Hubners Who's Who, Switzerland, or a 'Who's Who in Poland 1985 ", edition beers Warsaw
o [Someone] Do you know who this is?, Under the general editorship of Stanislaw Loza, published by the Central Military Bookshop, Warsaw 1938
o [List] List Katyn victims and missing prisoners of the camps Kozelsk, Ostashkov, Starobielsk Ed. Alfa Warsaw 1989
o [Lithium] State Historical Archives in Vilnius
o [Lempa.] George Lempicki - Armorial Mazowiecki, Heroldium, Poznan
o [LET.] Letowski L. - Product bishops, prelates and canons of Krakow, Vol 1-4, Printing UJ, 1852
o [May] "Greater estates" t.VI - District Kaliski, National Museum of Agriculture and Agro-Food Industry in Szreniawa r 2000
o [Matt.] Or (Matt) Roman Marcinek, Krzysztof Ślusarek - genealogy materials Galician nobles' Publishing Society "History Jagiellonica" Kraków 1996
o [Min] Marek Jerzy Minakowski - "These great Poles are our family" Kraków 2007
o [Morm.] Mormon Church's genealogical database
o [MWP] Polish Army Museum in Warsaw
o [Top.] Jan Bigo, latest index of all the towns of the hamlets in Cr. Galicia UK. Duchy of Lithuania and Fr. bukowieńskim, Zolochiv 1886 (23922 PAN III)
o [Nies.] Kasper Niesiecki, Polish Heraldry, Leipzig 1841, with completion of Ignacy Milewski Kapitza release Zygmunt Gloger, Kraków 1870.
o [Nom.] Fr. Wojciech Wiiuk Kojałowicz - Armorial nobles known as Grand Duchy of Lithuania nomenclator Krakow 1897
o [OIM] National Marriage Index for 1899, www.przodkowie.com / metrics, Dr. Minakowski Electronic Publications
o [Orgel.] S. Orgelbrada Encyklopedja Universal, Warsaw 1899 (in the collection of the Library of the Technical University of Lodz)
o [ORL.] Dr. M. Orłowicz, Illustrated guide to Galicia, Bukovina, Spisz, Orava and Cieszyn Silesia, Lviv 1919.
o [Par.] Parish books
o [Beg.] Fellowship of the Galician nobility and Bukowińska Lions 1857 [Beg.] - Indygenaty nobility granted in 1872 and later
o [Pot.] Descendants of the Four deputies - Marek Jerzy Minakowski
o [PSB] Polish Biographical Dictionary, PAU, Cracow, 1939 -.
o [PTG] Polish Genealogical Society, lists of baptisms, marriages and deaths from parish records, www.ptg.gda.pl
o [RGIA] Rosyjskij Gosudarstvennye, Historical Archives in St. Petersburg - dawniecj Central State Historical Archives
o [MPC] Knights of Polish Władysław Puharowicz Podkarpacie - Think 1937
o [SGKP] work. tank. p.red., Philip Sulimierskiego, Bronislaw Chlebowski, Wladyslaw Walewski, Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Polish and other Slavic countries, Editors Rover 1890
o [SHGWKrak] - Dictionary Historical and geographical region in the Middle Ages Krakow, Polish Academy of Sciences
o [ITA.] Work. tank. p.red., Philip Sulimierskiego, Bronislaw Chlebowski, Wladyslaw Walewski, Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Polish and other Slavic countries, Editors Rover 1890
o [Słow.Geogr.-Hist.] Work. tank. p.red., Philip Sulimierskiego, Bronislaw Chlebowski, Wladyslaw Walewski, Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Polish and other Slavic countries, Editors Rover 1890
o [ITA. hist-Lon province. crack cocaine.] - Historical and Geographical Dictionary of Krakow region in the Middle Ages, PAN
o [Table of Kiev ...] Spisok dworian kijewskoj province, Kiev, 1906
o [Table podolski ...] Spisok dworian wniesiennych in dworiańsku radosłownuju knigu podolskoj province, Kamieniec 1897, ed. , 1913
o [Table of Volyn ...] Spisok dworian wołyńskoj province, Zhitomir 1905
o [Table] Table of the nobility of the Polish Kingdom with a brief of evidence informacyi nobility, reprint ed. of 1851,
o [SSS] Slavic Antiquities Dictionary, encyclopedic outline Slavic culture from the earliest times, edited by W. Kawalenki, G. Labuda, and T. Lehr-Splawinski, the National Department. Ossolińskich Academy of Sciences, 1961 -
o [Stankiewicz] - Stankiewicz JS, Genealogy, Stankiewicz with friends, family party - www.stankieiwcz.e.pl
o [Loss ...] personal losses and victims of repression under the German occupation, www.straty.pl
o [Stup.] Stupnicki H., List of killed and died 1863-4, Lviv 1865
o [Szematyzm ...] Szematyzmy Tax Administration of the Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeryi of the Grand Duchy of Krakow, the years 1850, 1869, 1870, 1881, 1882, 1897, 1898, 1911, 1912, 1913
o [Vulva-crack] S. Kolodziejski, medieval lords Defense Residences in the province of Cracow, the Regional Center for the Study and Protection of the Cultural Environment in Krakow, Kraków 1994
o [Tab] Pilat, T., Index tabularnych goods in Galicia with the Great Father. Krakowskie,'s outlay, Lviv 1890
o [Portfolio] Teki Dworzaczka - Collections Library in Kornik
o [TK] Tabula National - numbered according to the original pattern, CDIAL
o [Urus] Seweryn Uruski, family, Heraldry of the Polish nobility, Warsaw, 1904-1931
o [UWKL] work. tank. p.red. Count A., officials of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Publisher DiG, Warsaw 2004
o [VL] Volumina Legum, rights, privileges konstytucye s Polish Kingdom, Great Xięstwa Lithuanian prowincyi were all owned by the Crown from the general seymiech seymu wiślickiego year of our Lord 1347 until the last seymu, ed. 1732-1952
o [WEP] Great Universal Encyclopedia, Warsaw 1968
o [Edit] Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia, www.wikipedia.org - articles in books
o [Witeb.] Vitebsk prwincyi Armorial nobility, edited by Francis Piekosiński, "Herold Polish", the printing time, Kraków 1899, also reprinted Poznan 1998, Publisher "Heroldium"
o [WJK] Mariusz Mochyna, Czeslaw Strzednicki Crown Army, Infantry
o [Earthlings ...] Leśkiewicz J. (et al.) Earthlings Polish twentieth century, Biographical Dictionary, DiG, Warsaw since 1995
o [R.] Theodore Zychlinski, The Golden Book of the Polish nobility, Poznan, 1879-1908
o [Rec.] Theodore Zychlinski, Wielkopolska Chronicle mourning families ..., Poznan 1877
o [ZN] Gypsy WK, soldiers Biographical Dictionary of Independence 1863-1938, Publishing House "Armor", the People's Movement History Museum, the Museum of Minsk, Social School No. 1 in Krakow, Minsk Mazowiecki - Warszawa - Kraków 2011
Archives, the original source
o In most of these materials are clearly described in the site of the information
o Family documents, certificates, acts of baptism, marriage, death, property, family studies, family trees, etc.
o Dworzaczek W. - Teki - Collections Library in Kornik
o Dworzecki-Bohdanowicz, JP Armorial Lithuanian nobility - the manuscript - Lietuvos Valstybės Istorijos Archyvas Vilnius f 391, 2789 9.SVT apyraso
o Glinka - Teki, National Centre for Research and Documentation of Monuments in Warsaw
o Inventory Metrics Crown Book entries and decrees Polish Royal Chancery of the year 1447? 1795, ed. Sułkowska-Kurasiowa Irene and Mary Woźniakowa 1973 Main Directorate of State Archives Central Archives of Historical Records in Warsaw., Too: agad.archiwa.gov.pl
o Diplomatic Code of Malopolska, ed. F. Piekosiński, Kraków 1886
o Kopidariusz privileges of Krakow (manuscripts)
o E. Kozlowski, Files January Uprising, collections of the Institute of History (base enriched with numerous other collections, as well as extracts from foreign archives)
o Parish records, metrical
o Liber revisionum triennalium domorum seu lapidearum cannonicalium, Chapter Metropolitan Archives in Krakow
o Łuszczyński BH, Silva Heraldic, pedigrees and other material for rodopistwa the municipal act and landed former province of Cracow and other archives of the former act of the Polish National Library, Ms.. IV 6583, the development of electronically: Goettingen State and University Library
o Regni Matricularium Poloniae Summaria, ed. T. Wierzbowski Volume IV, London 1905-1917
o Lithuanian metric records hearth Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
o Prochaska, A. (ed) Town and land of archive t Bernardine in Lviv Scientific Society, Lviv 1928
o Regestr capitular houses and villages prestivszonialnych 1558-1614, Archives of the Metropolitan Chapter of Krakow
o Regestrum Domorum Venerabilis Capituli Cracoviensis (seventeenth century)
o Rep. Affairs of the city of Krakow ... written by John Zygmunt Zaleski in 1694r. (Manuscripts)
o K. Richter, Kadaster city of Krakow in the seventeenth century, the eighteenth, nineteenth, 1862.
o Teki Żegoty-Paulego, National Archives at Wawel, Cracow
o State archives, church, parish, municipal
Armorials
o Bobrowicz J. Kasper Niesiecki Polish Heraldry. Oversized accessories with poniejszych rękopismów authors, evidence, official and released by John Nep. Bobrowicz., Leipzig 1841
o Boniecki A., Armorial Polish, Warsaw, 1899-1914, printed reprint WAiF Warsaw 1965, edition of the electronic ed. and ed. Richard Jurzak, Bielsko-Biala 2002; reprint WAiF Warsaw 1985. electronic edition, ed. and index. Marek Jerzy Minakowski, ed. Electronic Publications Minakowski Dr. Krakow 2002;
o Boniecki A., Fellowship of families in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the XV and XVI century., Warsaw 1883
o JS Dunin Borkowski, Yearbook of Polish nobles, Lviv 1881.
o Winiarski A. Birch, coats of arms of the Republic of Nobility. Publisher De Facto, Warsaw 2006
o Dachnowski JK, Heraldry of the Royal Prussian nobility of the seventeenth century, Kórnik 1995.
o Dunin-Borkowski JS Almanac blue. Polish families living genealogies, Lviv 1908.
o Dworzaczek W., Genealogy, History Institute of the Polish Academy of Sciences, Warsaw 1959
o Dziadulewicz S. Armorial Tatar families in Poland, Vilnius 1929
o Gajl T., Polish Heraldry, from the Middle Ages to the twentieth century, published by L & L, 2007
o Gałkowski P., Genealogy landowners Dobrzyń nineteenth and twentieth centuries (until 1939), Rypin 1997.
o Kojałowicz Fr. W. Wijuk, nobility Armorial Grand Duchy of Lithuania called nomenclator Krakow 1897
o Korwin L., Armenian noble families, Kraków 1934
o Amilkar A. Kosinski - Heraldic Guide, dozens of monographs znakomitszych families, inventory and senatorial families with honorary titles, ON. L. Anczyca and Sp., Kraków 1877
o Kossakowski SK - Genealogy Historical Monographs some Polish families T.1-3
o Kruczkowski "Korwin" S., "Forum Nobilium ...", Lviv 1935
o A. Kulikowski, Grand Armorial Polish Houses, World Book, Warsaw, 2005
o Kuropatnicki EA, News of nobility and coats jewel ..., Michael Groll, Warsaw 1789
o Lackschewitz K., Prus-Niewiadomski A., Lecznewski T., W. von Buchholtz year., Genealogien kurlandisch-ritterschaftlicher Geschlechter, Kurlandiche Ritterschaft 2004
o Lenczewski T., Genealogy titled families
o Lempicki J. - Armorial Mazowiecki, Heroldium, Poznan
o Letowski L. - Product bishops, prelates and canons of Krakow, Vol 1-4, Printing UJ, 1852
o Minakowski MJ - These great Poles are our family, Kraków 2007
o Minakowski MJ, descendants of members of the Four
o Murinius M., Prussian masters Chronicle, printed Malcher Neringk, Torun 1582 (for: www.chomikuj.pl)
o Niesiecki K., Polish Heraldry, Leipzig 1841, with completion of Ignacy Milewski Kapitza release Zygmunt Gloger, Kraków 1870.
o J. Ostrowski, The Book of arms Polish families, Warsaw 1897.
o Pavlishchev M., Heraldry of the noble families of the Polish Kingdom at most approved Vol I-II, London 1853
o Piekosiński F., eds Armorial nobility prwincyi Vitebsk, "Herold Polish", the printing time, Kraków 1899, also reprinted Poznan 1998, Publisher "Heroldium"
o Pragert P., Kashubian nobility Armorial, BIT-ART., Gdańsk 2005
o Pszczółkowski AA Coaches nobility, (akson.sgh.waw.pl / ~ apszczol)
o K. Pulaski, Polish noble families Chronicle Podolia, Volhynia and Ukraine, Bookstore Felix West, Brody 1911
o J. Szymanski, Heraldry Medieval Polish Knighthood, PWN, Warsaw 1993
o Uruski S., Family, Heraldry of the Polish nobility, Warsaw, 1904-1931
o Wilczynski JK, Armorial ancient Polish nobility podług heralds the complement to the present day, Paris, circa 1860
o Wittyg A., Dziadulewicz S., Unknown Polish nobility coats of arms and its "1908
o L. Zalewski, land Livonian nobility, Warsaw 2005
o Znamierowski Alfred, Heraldry Pedigree, World Books, London, 2004.
o Zychlinski T., The Chronicle of Greater Poland mourning families ..., Poznan 1877
o Zychlinski T., Golden Book of Polish nobility, Poznan, 1879-1908
Encyclopedias, dictionaries, lists
o Almanac Poland escort, Publishing Society "Woreyd" 1928.
o Askenazy Sz., Stanislaw Krzeminski, Album biographical distinguished Polish men and women of the nineteenth century, published.Mary Chelmonski, Warsaw 1903, in the collection of Kujawsko-Pomeranian Digital Library
o Banaszek K., Roman Wanda Christine, Zdzisław Sawicki, Knights of the Order of Military Virtue in magiłach Katyn, the Chapter of the Order of Military Virtue war, Warsaw 2000
o Bartoszewicz J., Archbishop of Gniezno, Primates of the Republic and Warsaw and the Polish Kingdom primates., J. Ungra Printing, Warsaw, 1858-1865 (courtesy of: Silesian Digital Library)
o Bigo J., latest index of all the towns of the hamlets in Cr. Galicia UK. Duchy of Lithuania and Fr. bukowieńskim, Zolochiv 1886 (23922 PAN III)
o J. Dunin Borkowski, M Dunin Wasowicz, Elector of kings Władysław IV., Michael Korybut, Stanislaw Leszczynski and inventory supporters of Augustus III, in: Yearbook of Heraldic Society in Lviv Vol I, BCUniw. Warsaw
o Birch Thu., Stepan K., Polish MEPs in Parliament 1906-1917 Russian Biographical Dictionary, published by the Diet, Warsaw 2001
o Chłapowski K., A. Gasiorowski, central officials and nadworni Polish XIV-XVIII century censuses, Institute of History of Sciences, Goettingen State and University Library - 1992
o Gypsy WK, soldiers Biographical Dictionary of Independence 1863-1938, Publishing House "Armor", the Museum of the History of the People's Movement, the Museum of the Minsk School of Social No. 1 in Krakow, Minsk Mazowiecki - Warszawa - Kraków 2011
o Czartoryski J., Descendants of Prince Adam Kazimierz Czartoryski - General Podolian Lands (1734-1823) with spouses and Their descendants, too: pages.infinit.net / chimtic / jerzy
o Czwojdrak B., Jastrzebiec in the Cracow and Sandomierz to the middle of the fifteenth century, the Societas Vistulana, Kraków 2007
o Is AS, Gutowski, B., Janowczyk P., Cemntarze former county borszczowskiego, the Association "Polish Community", RIA. Polish Committee for Cultural Heritage Abroad in Warsaw, Warzsawa 2004
o Is AS, Gutowski, B., Skrodzka A., Yasata K, Zdzieborska A., Cemntarze former county czortkowskiego, the Association "Polish Community", RIA. Polish Committee for Cultural Heritage Abroad in Warsaw, Warzsawa 2004
o Dumin S., Górzyński S., List of nobility in the provinces wylegitymowanej, Grodno, Minsk, Mogilev, Smolensk, Vitebsk and in the mid XIX century, Polish Heraldry Society, the Society Heraldyczno-family in Moscow Foundation. Ciechanowskich, DiG Arbor, Warsaw 1992
o Dunin-Borkowski JS hr., List the names of the Polish nobility, Lviv 1887
o Epsztein T., Górzyński S., List of the Polish gentry in 1930. Polesie region. Volhynia province. Publisher DiG, Warsaw 1996
o Epsztein T., Poland landed property in Ukraine in 1890, IH PAN, Publisher Neriton, Warsaw 2008
o Fastnach A. Historical and Geographical Dictionary Sanok in the Middle Ages, Societas Vistulana
o Follprecht K., property owners in Krakow in 1655, Library Krakowsak No. 142, Society of Friends of Cracow Heritage, ed. and printing., "Secession", Kraków 2001
o A. Gasiorowski, historical and geographical dictionary of Polish territories in the Middle Ages, PTPN
o Gembarzewski B., the Polish Army, the Duchy of Warsaw 1807-1814, Geberthner and Wolff, Warsaw 1905
o Gembarzewski B., the Polish Army, the Duchy of Warsaw 1815-1830, Geberthner and Wolff, Warsaw 1905
o Genealogical Book province Podolska
o Armorial General of the families of the Russian Empire court
o K. settlement, Polish graves in the cemeteries of London, Vol 1-2, Polish Academy of Sciences, Cracow 1995-2001
o Horoszkiewicz R., List of provincial land gentry families of Pinsk, Warsaw 1997.
o Hubner, R., Who is Who in Poland, founded by Ralph Hubner, Issue IV 2005, Hubners Who's Who, Switzerland, or "Who is Who in Poland 1985", edition beers Warsaw
o M. Jackiewicz, Poles in Lithuania, 1918-2000 Biographical Dictionary, published by Andrew Frukacz Exlibris Polish Gallery Books, 2nd edition, revised and enlarged, Warsaw 2003
o Jedynak Z., Z. Kieres, big families big property, State Archives in Katowice, Silesian Museum in Katowice, Katowice 2006
o Card Index of the Repressed, Information Center Polish citizens repressed in the Soviet Union, Centre for SAFETY
o Kirkor S. Dictionary Vistula Legion officers and regiments of Vistula Lancers
o Kirkor S. Under the banners of Napoleon's Dictionary officers of regiments 4th, 7th and 9 Duchy of Warsaw, which Polish Division in Spain.
o Klijanienko-Pienkowski George, Mr. Pienkowski? Da, they Zili ZDIES ... Publisher RELAY, Steel Will 2012
o Konasrski Sz., Armorial de la noblesse Titree polonaise, Paris 1958
o Konasrski Sz., About heraldry and "heraldic" snobiźmie, Publishing Publishing Adiutor, Warsaw 1992
o Table A. Kozlowski nobility Gubernji wylegitymowanej in Vilnius
o Kruczkowski L., against the Poles elevated to the rank of nobility by monarchs austryjackich time from 1773 to 1918, Lviv 1935
o Krzepela J. Rody Prussian Lands, Geberthner and Wolf, Kraków 1927
o Krzepela J. Rody Prussia Part 2: Rody other Prussian lands, the names niegniazdowych Houses, Houses of the cities of Torun and Gdansk came out, Rody alluvial from the Polish lands, especially with Dobrzyn, Plock and Ciechanow,
o Leśkiewicz J. (et al.) Earthlings Polish twentieth century, Biographical Dictionary, DiG, Warsaw since 1995
o List of former county przasnyskiego nobility in pre-1798 borders
o Orgelbrad S., Encyklopedja Universal, Warsaw 1899 (in the collection of the Library of the Technical University of Lodz)
o Malewski Thu., Description of the nobility lidzkiej of 1765, [in] Yearbook of the Association of Polish Scientists of Lithuania, pp. 168 - 183, volume 4, 2005. by: documents in the National Historical Archive in Vilnius, Lithuania
o Malewski Thu., Rody nobility in Lithuania in the nineteenth century, district lidzki, Publisher TIME, Vilnius 2001
o A. Massalski, government school teachers of men in the Polish Kingdom 1833-1862 - Biographical Dictionary, University of Humanities and Sciences Academy in Kielce, RHYTHM Publishing House, Warsaw 2008
o R. Marciniak, Boksa M., Luczak M., Bibliography history of Wielkopolska, PTPN Library, Poznan 2005
o Minakowski MJ, National Marriage Index for 1899, www.przodkowie.com / metrics, Dr. Minakowski Electronic Publications
o Ministry of Military Affairs, Yearbook reserve officer, Warsaw 1934
o Piekosiński F. Copies of the books conscripts heraldic images. Podlaskie 1581, Lviv 1911
o Pietruski O., against the Electoral who once voted for electors of John Casimir in 1648, John III. 1674, Augustus II. in 1697, and Stanislaw August 1764, the brightest of Polish Kings, Grand Dukes of Lithuania, etc / composed and gave Oswald renegade from Siemuszowa Pietruski, print Pisz Lawrence, Cajetan effort Jablonski, Bochnia, Lviv 1845 (in the Library of the University of Warsaw)
o Pilat, T., Index tabularnych goods in Galicia with the Great Father. Krakowskie,'s outlay, Lviv 1890
o Pizuński P., big lexicon of Polish knights, published by L & L, Gdansk 2007
o Encyclopedia Poland House, London from 1935 to 1938.
o works. tank., the Mormon Church genealogy database
o works. tank., list the losses of the Polish Army, Military History Office 1934 (www.stankiewicz.e.pl)
o works. tank., Dictionary Polish Fighting on the Eastern Borderlands Rzyczypospolitej, Society of Friends of the Earth Vilnius and Vilnius Branch in Bydgoszcz, 1995
o works. tank., Great Universal Encyclopedia, Warsaw 1968
o works. tank., Polish Biographical Dictionary, PAU, Cracow, 1939-1946.
o works. tank., Polish Genealogical Society, lists of baptisms, marriages and deaths from parish records, www.ptg.gda.pl
o works. tank., Katyn list of victims and missing prisoners of the camps Kozelsk, Ostashkov, Starobielsk Ed. Alfa Warsaw 1989
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o Swede W., Масонскія ложы на землях Беларусі (Masonic lodges in the lands of Belarus) (source: kamunikat.net.iig.pl)
o Ślusarek K., petty nobles in Galicia, 1772-1848, Publisher "Academic Bookstore", Kraków 1994
o Tarszeński Dydak OFMso, Jonah living in mortal zatonieniu ..., Lviv 1758 (the WBC)
o Tomkowicz S., Tyniec, Tow outlay. Historya lovers and Monuments Krakow, 1901
o Trzecieski J., souvenirs and memories of the land Sanok, Krosno 1907
o A. Urbanski, knell on the ruins of Lithuania and Russia, edition by the author, Warsaw, 1928 (in: WBC)
o Wachholz L., Białoń J. Grochowski, J., Composition of the Faculty of Medicine and Pharmacy of the Jagiellonian University in the years 1364-1949 Medical Academy in Cracow in the years 1950-1963 in the six hundredth of the Jagiellonian University in Krakow and AM, OWN, Kraków 1963
o ZK Walewski, Memorial for Polish Families Brief news lost on scaffolding, shot, killed and died in exile, Siberia and the victims of the 1861-1866 tułactwie year, official sources, newspapers, and oral applications but with credible people and comrades in arms, Editors Kalina , 1867 [a. www.wbc.poznan.pl]
o Z. Wasilewski, Footsteps Mickiewicz, essays and contributions to the history of Romanticism, Publishing Society, Lviv 1905
o Warzkowicz E., J. Klink, Defense Lviv (ed), Society for the History of Defence Lviv and South-Eastern Provinces, Warsaw 1994
o Weyssenhoff J., Chronicle Weyssów-Weyssenhoffów family, Vilnius 1935 (in: WBC)
o S. Zaleski, Fr., Jesuits in Poland, Krakow 1908
o Zboiński AB Ogończyków Zboińskich Pedigree Belgian lines, Kikolskiej, Kozlowska and Osińska by George Ignatius of Osin Zboiński between 1972-1977 and designed by his brother Anton Bogdan ready to print, Warsaw, 1977 (typescript)
o George betrayal., United emigration after the November Uprising, a series of Acts of the Nation and of the Polish State
o T. Zielinska, Radziwills coat Trumpets - family history, in a collective work, the Head Office of State Archives AGAD, Publisher DiG, Warsaw 1996
o Złotorzycka M., O women soldiers in the January Uprising, PZWS, Warsaw 1972
o Zubek J. Fr., Martyrdom Podlaskie clergy during the Nazi occupation 1939-1945, Siedlce 1968, the work is based on data from the act of the Diocese of Siedlce, ADSB 1944 [manuscript for: Alexandrovich P. Fr., Diocese of Siedlce ...]
o Żenkiewicz J., Polish landowners in the Republic of Lithuania in the interwar period, Torun 2001
o Żenkiewicz J., Lithuania over the centuries and its relationship with the Polish, Torun 2001
The most common Magazines
o 1818-1939 Lviv newspaper - in Jagiellonian Digital Library
o Weekly Illustrowany
The most common source of Internet
o [Greater vows] bindweed.man.poznan.pl / posen / data / database dolacz.php Greater marriages, Coordinator: Lukasz Bielecki
o [Edit] Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia, www.wikipedia.org - articles in books
o archives.nd.edu / latgramm.htm
o archiwum2000.tripod.com
o baza.archiwa.gov.pl / sesame / pradziad.php
o bindweed.man.poznan.pl
o edukacjaregionalna.republika.pl/k35.htm - A list of the January Uprising of land area latowickiej
o genealog.home.pl
o genealogy.drefs.net
o geneweb.inria.fr / Roglo? lang = en
o home.concepts.nl - Polish War Graves
o i.sadurski.w.interia.pl
o kdkv.narod.ru/1864
o monstera.man.poznan.pl / ~ bielecki
o ruski.idysk.com
o teki.bkpan.poznan.pl
o worsten.org/galicio/lwow/familioj_1902/fam_1902_pl.htm
o www.agad.archiwa.gov.pl / presentations / metryka_litewska.html
o www.akromer.republika.pl / Distributors.html
o www.ancestorhunt.com
o www.ancestry.com
o www.auschwitz.org.pl
o www.beskid.com.pl / genealogy
o www.bialorus.pl
o www.bindweed.man.poznan.pl/ ~ bielecki / search.php
o www.biol.uni.torun.pl/ ~ Kozlov / gene
o www.czartoryski.prv.pl
o www.dabrowski.esimple.pl
o www.encyklopedia.interia.pl
o www.encyklopedia.pwn.pl
o www.feefhs.org
o www.genealog.home.pl
o www.genealogiapolska.pl
o www.genealogy.com
o www.genealodzy.pl
o www.genotype.pl
o www.forumnobilium.net
o www.herby.com.pl
o www.herby.umk.pl - site of the University of Santa Koprenika - source illustration full of coats of arms by Tadeusz Gajl
o www.gajl.wielcy.pl - Tadeusz Gajl, Lech Milewski - Polish Heraldry - search
o www.indeks.karta.org.pl
o www.jewishgen.org
o www.jurek.com.pl / against
o www.jurzak.pl
o www.katedrapolowa.pl / ofiary.php
o www.kindredkonnections.com
o www.ltg.pl
o www.marienburg.pl
o www.napoleon.gery.pl
o www.notrefamille.com
o www.ogrodywspomnien.pl - Service Gardens Memories notes, information, photos, genealogy
o www.ornatowski.com
o www.pacakm.webpark.pl
o www.pbi.edu.pl
o www.pgsa.org
o www.podkamien.yoyo.pl
o www.podstolski.com
o www.poishi.com
o www.polishwargraves.nl
o www.polskiedzieje.pl / drzewa.php
o www.przodkowie.com
o www.pu.kielce.pl / pages / Grzegorz.Krukowski
o www.rodzima.org
o www.rodtarnowski.net
o www.rootsweb.com
o www.stankiewicz.e.pl
o www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/ff/fitzalan1.htm # link1
o www.trees.pl
o www.trokiele.republika.pl
o www.volksbund.de
o www.wikipedia.pl
o wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl
o www.zapala.pl
o www.wiem.onet.pl
Graphic materials et al.:
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Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#54564

From: "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:39 am
Subject: Re: number in the military forces

annapacewicz

Martin, that is a superb idea. My Dad was also in the Navy (I'm sure we have
corresponded on this previously). He enlisted in Tockoje and by August 1942 was
in UK. He was on Garland also pounding Italy in 1944.

There is some great info on the National Archives under the archives for
Churchill's War Cabinet. It makes reference to 800 men coming from "Russia" (I
can send you this?).

I have been in touch with a Polish Navy historian in the UK who has been
enormously helpful - Wanda Troman - and there is also Martin Hazell from
Plymouth who has just recently organised an exhibition/testimonial history at
the naval museum in Gdansk.

I do have a list of all the names of sailors from the Polish Navy in WW2. They
are listed in the book "Polska Marynarka Wojenna" published in 1947. It is on my
To Do list to scan this book for KSVM.

Anyway I'm sure it is possible to set something up as you propose.
For example we could start a collection on the KSVM Hall of Memories. There is a
lady in Wollongong NSW I have been meaning to visit all year..: her father also
served on Garland and she has dozens of photos which she will let me scan. I'm
sure I connected with her via Martin Hazell / the Plymouth maritime museum. I
have also found lots of photographs from PISM although apart from very senior
officers there are no names attributed.

What do you think?

We would also like to do a special exhibition or gallery on the Polish Navy in
KSVM but that is grant dependant and a bigger task. Setting up a photograph
gallery would be easier perhaps with a link up to Wall of Names.

Kind regards
Anna Pacewicz
Sydney
(from Edinburgh)

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, martin stepek  wrote:
>
> Lucyna
>
>
>
> The Polish Navy was very small. Only 4,500. I know this because I have about a
dozen to twenty photos of my father and naval friends and colleagues, most of
whose identities I don’t know. If I get the time I’d like to set up a kind
of “Search for wartime Polish sailors photographs” website. This would allow
families of WW2 Polish Navy personnel to put up their photos and search
others’ to see if they can find previously unknown photos of their relatives.
After all if I have photos of Polish sailors in my possession it suggests that
others will have photos of my father in their possession. Anyone who could help
set this up please get in touch because I have the vision but neither the time
nor the expertise to do it properly.
>
>
>
> I wonder if anyone has any stats on the number of Siberiaks who ended up being
transferred to the navy. My Dad joined Anders Army on 10th Feb 1942 at Kermine,
contracted typhus so couldn’t leave with the vast majority of the troops,
eventually left in August 1942, promptly contracted dysentery twice then malaria
so spend from August 42 to January 43 in hospital in Teheran before rejoining
Anders in Basra, Iraq. There he promptly fell ill again. At that point a friend
told him the Navy were recruiting and Dad thought of it as a way to leave the
Middle-East and its tropical diseases. By March he was in Kirkcaldy here in
Scotland training before being transferred to Poland Naval HQ near Plymouth. For
the next two years he served as radar operator on Polish ships in Sicily, Italy
(including pounding around Monte Cassino to distract the enemy from defending it
in greater numbers), D-Day in Normandy and finally Germany itself.
>
>
>
> I think his war was quite rare for a Syberiak and would be interested to learn
if there are many - any? - other examples of transferences of survivors of
Siberia spending the war in the navy rather than army or civilian life.
>
>
>
> Martin Stepek
>
> Author, For There is Hope
>
> “tender and impassioned, it should be on every table where Poland is
discussed and the brave dead remembered” Neal Ascherson
>
> Available from Amazon, Waterstones or directly from the publishers
www.ettadunn.com
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (10)

#54565

From: "ryszardsys" <ryszardsys@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:48 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

ryszardsys

Zenon,

I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi".  This has inspired me to
google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear".  I assumed that
"cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google
tells me it simply means "damn it".

His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". 
Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I
googled the rest.  And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". 
Brilliant.  What a great way to vent your frustration!

And, do you know what?  I can see him now wandering away from my mother,
shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words
over and over again.  Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.

The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these
phrases past them and see what their reaction is!

It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.

This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say.  Maybe some of
you have more and maybe some of you know these:

"Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
"pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll
drink the ink.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik  wrote:
>
> Dear Rysiu,
>
> Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias
(not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family
friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to
mention the frequent use of "Szlak". �Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube
clip brought them all back...
>
> My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times,
and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to
above.
>
> Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> Zenon Kuzik�
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: ryszardsys
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org]  Ethnicity vs. citizenship
>
>
> �
> Zenon,
>
> I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad
would work so my dziadek looked after me.  I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had
a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after
me for about 8 weeks.  He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up
large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread
underneath and ran the string into the house through a window.  We caught
endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum
when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this.  The tirade was
comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as
swearing.  Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian
accent made it come out as "hoolera".
>
> I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident.  My dziadek had
took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house.  My shoes
got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove.  They caught fire and filled the
whole house with a horrible stench.  He quickly ran to the shop and bought what
he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a
little.  My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what
had happened "Nic!"  So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then
she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! 
Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in
Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
>
> Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear
words!
>
> Rys
> UK
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik  wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rysiu,
> >
> > At your behest, I came across the
following:�http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . �The tears came
streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! �I played this
back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. �Note in the clip on
the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. �Ha, ha.
> >
> > Re your comment:�And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who
came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the
UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the
skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. �So very,
very true...
> >
> > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> >
> > Zenon Kuzik
> > New Zealand �
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org]  Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> > �
> > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an
old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> >
> > Not for the faint hearted.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK
>

#54566

From: "ryszardsys" <ryszardsys@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:51 pm
Subject: It's official. Polish now the 2nd most spoken language in the UK

ryszardsys

I wonder if anyone else has picked this up in the news today, but it now
official.  Polish is the second most spoken language in the UK thanks to the
wave of Poles coming from a now free Poland.

How long before our curriculum at school will include great stories such as
"Pawel i Gawel"?

Rys
UK

Reply | Messages in this Topic (13)

#54567

From: John Halucha <john.halucha@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:44 pm
Subject: Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

john.halucha

What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.

With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the KSVM. Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to talk about it.

Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech Cię szlag trafi" or "Niech Cię jasny szlag trafi"? That translates substantially more harshly than Google told you, something like "May a stroke strike you" or "May a clear stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear or bright, often used to emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how ultra-polite Polish demands a capital letter on "You" even with a curse? Directly opposite of English, which uses the capital for I but leaves you lower case. Charming, no?

"Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was funny and unreal to me.

When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia krew" or "psia kość" which literally translate to "dog's blood" and "dog's bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.

My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w kółko golony", which Google informs me means "shaved over and over again." I thought it translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I supposed referred to the hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either is correct or why either would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification gratefully acknowledged.

Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think. Yup, I was that kind of kid sometimes.

Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something like, "kółk a w kółku dziura". I thought it meant "a knot (as in wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.

"Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta": isn't worth shit.

One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I picked it up somewhere along the way.

Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was heard frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is "ебать твою мать". In English letters it sounds to me something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too rude even for me to tackle here, but it is close to the infamous current English curse "m...f...er". Google will probably translate more accurately for those who want to look it up themselves.

No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier generations. This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has happened in English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything these days but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when I was an adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild expression.

This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to preserve the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?

John Halucha

Sault Ste Marie, Canada

From: ryszardsys <ryszardsys@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Zenon,

I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google tells me it simply means "damn it".

His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!

And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother, shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.

The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!

It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.

This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:

"Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
"pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll drink the ink.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
>
> Dear Rysiu,
>
> Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...
>
> My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.
>
> Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> Zenon Kuzik
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ryszardsys
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
>
>
>
> Zenon,
>
> I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".
>
> I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
>
> Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!
>
> Rys
> UK
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rysiu,
> >
> > At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> >
> > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
> >
> > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> >
> > Zenon Kuzik
> > New Zealand
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> >
> > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> >
> > Not for the faint hearted.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK

#54568

From: Anne Kaczanowski <kazameena@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:39 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

kazameena

I remember as a kid, friends of my parents.....women in particular who were like the baba in the video. I loved those women and how confidently they expressed themselves and how my mom and dad would laugh in their company. I just realized it is the laughter that is associated with this raunchy vocabulary that i remember the most.I guess I learned from the best.

Sent from my iPhone

On 2013-01-31, at 10:44 AM, John Halucha <john.halucha@...> wrote:

What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.
With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the KSVM. Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to talk about it.

Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech CiÄ™ szlag trafi" or "Niech CiÄ™ jasny szlag trafi"? That translates substantially more harshly than Google told you, something like "May a stroke strike you" or "May a clear stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear or bright, often used to emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how ultra-polite Polish demands a capital letter on "You" even with a curse? Directly opposite of English, which uses the capital for I but leaves you lower case. Charming, no?
"Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was funny and unreal to me.
When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia krew" or "psia koÅ›Ä‡" which literally translate to "dog's blood" and "dog's bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.
My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w kÃ³Å‚ko golony", which Google informs me means "shaved over and over again." I thought it translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I supposed referred to the hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either is correct or why either would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification gratefully acknowledged.
Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think. Yup, I was that kind of kid sometimes.
Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something like, "kÃ³Å‚k a w kÃ³Å‚ku dziura". I thought it meant "a knot (as in wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.
"Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta": isn't worth shit.
One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I picked it up somewhere along the way.
Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was heard frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is "ÐµÐ±Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒ Ñ‚Ð²Ð¾ÑŽ Ð¼Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒ". In English letters it sounds to me something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too rude even for me to tackle here, but it is close to the infamous current English curse "m...f...er". Google will probably translate more accurately for those who want to look it up themselves.

No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier generations. This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has happened in English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything these days but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when I was an adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild expression.
This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to preserve the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?

John Halucha
Sault Ste Marie, Canada

From: ryszardsys <ryszardsys@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Zenon,

I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google tells me it simply means "damn it".

His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!

And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother, shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.

The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!

It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.

This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:

"Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
"pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll drink the ink.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
>
> Dear Rysiu,
>
> Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...
>
> My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.
>
> Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> Zenon Kuzik
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ryszardsys
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
>
>
>
> Zenon,
>
> I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".
>
> I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
>
> Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!
>
> Rys
> UK
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rysiu,
> >
> > At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> >
> > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
> >
> > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> >
> > Zenon Kuzik
> > New Zealand
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> >
> > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> >
> > Not for the faint hearted.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK

#54569

From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:51 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

basia5milligan

The ones I heard were "psia jego mac" (the c=ch in this case) which means " a dog's his mother", "czort" = "devil", "psia kosc/krew" = dog's bone/blood", "niech go szlak trafi" = (loosely translated) "may he be hit by lightening" You are right John, it can mean a stroke or some misfortune."kurwy syn" = "whore's son". "guwno" which literally means shit , manure, crap, but usually used for "rubbish" or tat i.e. of something for sale, or of what's been said. Licho has various meanings. Liche mieszkanie means a poor house and is not a swear or curse. It can also mean bad rather than the devil. I suppose as with all curses, in whatever language, the tone of voice used is important - curl up and 'die' or fall about laughing.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Basia (UK)

On 31 Jan 2013, at 17:44, John Halucha wrote:

What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.
With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the KSVM. Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to talk about it.

Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech CiÄ˙ szlag trafi" or "Niech CiÄ˙ jasny szlag trafi"? That translates substantially more harshly than Google told you, something like "May a stroke strike you" or "May a clear stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear or bright, often used to emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how ultra-polite Polish demands a capital letter on "You" even with a curse? Directly opposite of English, which uses the capital for I but leaves you lower case. Charming, no?
"Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was funny and unreal to me.
When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia krew" or "psia koÅ˝ÄΩ" which literally translate to "dog's blood" and "dog's bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.
My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w kÃ“Å≠ko golony", which Google informs me means "shaved over and over again." I thought it translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I supposed referred to the hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either is correct or why either would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification gratefully acknowledged.
Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think. Yup, I was that kind of kid sometimes.
Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something like, "kÃ“Å≠k a w kÃ“Å≠ku dziura". I thought it meant "a knot (as in wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.
"Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta": isn't worth shit.
One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I picked it up somewhere along the way.
Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was heard frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is "‹µ‹±‹°Ñ≠Ñ‘ Ñ≠‹”‹≤Ñ⁄ ‹π‹°Ñ≠Ñ‘". In English letters it sounds to me something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too rude even for me to tackle here, but it is close to the infamous current English curse "m...f...er". Google will probably translate more accurately for those who want to look it up themselves.

No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier generations. This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has happened in English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything these days but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when I was an adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild expression.
This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to preserve the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?

John Halucha
Sault Ste Marie, Canada

From: ryszardsys <ryszardsys@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Zenon,

I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google tells me it simply means "damn it".

His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!

And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother, shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.

The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!

It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.

This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:

"Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
"pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll drink the ink.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
>
> Dear Rysiu,
>
> Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...
>
> My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.
>
> Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> Zenon Kuzik
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ryszardsys
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
>
>
>
> Zenon,
>
> I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".
>
> I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
>
> Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!
>
> Rys
> UK
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rysiu,
> >
> > At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> >
> > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
> >
> > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> >
> > Zenon Kuzik
> > New Zealand
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> >
> > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> >
> > Not for the faint hearted.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK

#54570

From: "ryszardsys" <ryszardsys@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:08 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

ryszardsys

Well this has certainly stirred up the essence of what we (or our parents) were.

I hear the word "mac" (or "match" phonetically) used widely now with "Kor**" -
its actually Russian for mother that has moved its way into Polish.

Oh yes and dziadek would often lead with "Niech Ci ...."

This is sort of related, but in the UK a couple of years ago we had a
documentary about the lack of men in Poland because they were all in the UK. 
They cited plumbers as the example.  So the reporter rang a plumbers firm in
Krakow I think and spoke to a lady.
"Yes. I have a leak can you send a plumber please?"
"Certainly.  He'll be with you in half an hour."
"Half an hour?"
"Yes right. Prosze Pana.  You can't find a plumber, so where am I supposed to
find a plumber...."

I translated for me wife but what it lacked was the complete sarcasm that came
with her use of Polish.

I had something similar a couple of years back when I rented a car in Poland
(and they filled it with Petrol instead of Diesel).  I was on the phone to the
rental company some 200 miles away in Katowice.  We had many exchanges with her
telling me that it was the immobiliser and in the end, I resorted to their
sarcasm:

"Do you not have immobilisers on your cars in the UK? Of course you don't
because we steal them all and bring them to Poland" She said
"Yes, but our don't make our diesel smell like petrol.  But then I suppose this
is cheap Russian gowno you have to buy"  I said

....

Next day there was a replacement sent after a long long wait...There was a
slight problem so I rang her again:

"And have you got the car?  Are you happy with it?" She said
"Yes.  Its very nice but it took so long I thought you might be delivering it by
horse and cart which we don't have in England"
"Well we didn't want another one broken did we Pan?" She said
"No. But could you explain something to me.  In England, I usually use a hammer
and a screw driver, but I'm not sure you have this technology in Poland" I said
"What do you mean.  We even have computers here" She said
"Well, when I don't have a key for the ignition, I use a hammer and screwdriver,
so please advise what you use here in Poland"

....it turns out the driver forget to leave me the key.

Virtually everywhere I went in Poland, I found nothing but sarcastic, rude
service that would get you fired here in England, but, once I joined in, it was
great.

I guess my point is that Polish is a sarcastic language, which, when used well,
as with our fore-fathers, has an expression and a passion about it which I have
never come across before and really puts a smile on my face.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Anne Kaczanowski  wrote:
>
> I remember as a kid, friends of my parents.....women in particular who were
like the baba in the video. I loved those women and how confidently they
expressed themselves and how my mom and dad would laugh in their company.  I
just realized it is the laughter that is associated with this raunchy vocabulary
that i remember the most.I guess I learned from the best.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 2013-01-31, at 10:44 AM, John Halucha  wrote:
>
> > What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished
members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions
yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.
> > With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the KSVM.
Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on
ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were
featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame
if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to
talk about it.
> >
> > Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech CiÄ™ szlag trafi" or
"Niech CiÄ™ jasny szlag trafi"? That translates substantially more harshly
than Google told you, something like "May a stroke strike you" or "May a clear
stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear or bright, often used to
emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how ultra-polite Polish demands
a capital letter on "You" even with a curse? Directly opposite of English, which
uses the capital for I but leaves you lower case. Charming, no?
> > "Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but
Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has
about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on
a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their
hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying
the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was
funny and unreal to me.
> > When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia krew"
or "psia koÅ›Ä‡" which literally translate to "dog's blood" and "dog's
bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.
> > My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w kÃ³Å‚ko golony",
which Google informs me means "shaved over and over again." I thought it
translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I supposed referred to the
hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either is correct or why either
would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification gratefully acknowledged.
> > Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think. Yup,
I was that kind of kid sometimes.
> > Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was
something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something
like, "kÃ³Å‚k a w kÃ³Å‚ku dziura". I thought it meant "a knot (as in
wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.
> > "Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta":
isn't worth shit.
> > One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I
picked it up somewhere along the way.
> > Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was heard
frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is "ÐµÐ±Ð°�`‚�`�'
�`‚Ð²Ð¾�`Ž Ð¼Ð°�`‚�`�'". In English letters it sounds to me
something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too rude even for me to tackle here,
but it is close to the infamous current English curse "m...f...er". Google will
probably translate more accurately for those who want to look it up themselves.
> >
> > No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier generations.
This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has happened in
English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything these days
but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when I was an
adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild expression.
> > This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to preserve
the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?
> >
> > John Halucha
> > Sault Ste Marie, Canada
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> > Zenon,
> >
> > I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me
to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed
that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google
tells me it simply means "damn it".
> >
> > His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste,
siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to
fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire".
Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!
> >
> > And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother,
shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words
over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.
> >
> > The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run
these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!
> >
> > It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.
> >
> > This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some
of you have more and maybe some of you know these:
> >
> > "Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
> > "pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll
drink the ink.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Rysiu,
> > >
> > > Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my
Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a
family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not
to mention the frequent use of "Szlak".  Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube
clip brought them all back...
> > >
> > > My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several
times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia
referred to above.
> > >
> > > Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> > > Zenon Kuzik
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: ryszardsys
> > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Zenon,
> > >
> > > I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and
dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and
had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking
after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set
up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread
underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless
birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when
she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical
yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes
there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it
come out as "hoolera".
> > >
> > > I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had
took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes
got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the
whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what
he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a
little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what
had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then
she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black!
Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in
Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
> > >
> > > Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish
swear words!
> > >
> > > Rys
> > > UK
> > >
> > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Rysiu,
> > > >
> > > > At your behest, I came across the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY .  The tears came streaming down my
cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!!  I played this back to my dear
Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself.  Note in the clip on the link
provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name.  Ha, ha.
> > > >
> > > > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles
who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in
the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack
the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do.  So
very, very true...
> > > >
> > > > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> > > >
> > > > Zenon Kuzik
> > > > New Zealand
> > > >
> > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there
is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Not for the faint hearted.
> > > >
> > > > Rys
> > > > UK
> >
>

#54571

From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

basia5milligan

Hello Rys,

Mac (Match) is very old Polish - Polish and Russian have a common root and it's fascinating when you study old Polish. So we lost it, and they kept it; and now it's crept back. Great fun.

Basia (UK)

On 31 Jan 2013, at 19:08, ryszardsys wrote:

Well this has certainly stirred up the essence of what we (or our parents) were.

I hear the word "mac" (or "match" phonetically) used widely now with "Kor**" - its actually Russian for mother that has moved its way into Polish.

Oh yes and dziadek would often lead with "Niech Ci ...."

This is sort of related, but in the UK a couple of years ago we had a documentary about the lack of men in Poland because they were all in the UK. They cited plumbers as the example. So the reporter rang a plumbers firm in Krakow I think and spoke to a lady.
"Yes. I have a leak can you send a plumber please?"
"Certainly. He'll be with you in half an hour."
"Half an hour?"
"Yes right. Prosze Pana. You can't find a plumber, so where am I supposed to find a plumber...."

I translated for me wife but what it lacked was the complete sarcasm that came with her use of Polish.

I had something similar a couple of years back when I rented a car in Poland (and they filled it with Petrol instead of Diesel). I was on the phone to the rental company some 200 miles away in Katowice. We had many exchanges with her telling me that it was the immobiliser and in the end, I resorted to their sarcasm:

"Do you not have immobilisers on your cars in the UK? Of course you don't because we steal them all and bring them to Poland" She said
"Yes, but our don't make our diesel smell like petrol. But then I suppose this is cheap Russian gowno you have to buy" I said

....

Next day there was a replacement sent after a long long wait...There was a slight problem so I rang her again:

"And have you got the car? Are you happy with it?" She said
"Yes. Its very nice but it took so long I thought you might be delivering it by horse and cart which we don't have in England"
"Well we didn't want another one broken did we Pan?" She said
"No. But could you explain something to me. In England, I usually use a hammer and a screw driver, but I'm not sure you have this technology in Poland" I said
"What do you mean. We even have computers here" She said
"Well, when I don't have a key for the ignition, I use a hammer and screwdriver, so please advise what you use here in Poland"

....it turns out the driver forget to leave me the key.

Virtually everywhere I went in Poland, I found nothing but sarcastic, rude service that would get you fired here in England, but, once I joined in, it was great.

I guess my point is that Polish is a sarcastic language, which, when used well, as with our fore-fathers, has an expression and a passion about it which I have never come across before and really puts a smile on my face.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Anne Kaczanowski wrote:
>
> I remember as a kid, friends of my parents.....women in particular who were like the baba in the video. I loved those women and how confidently they expressed themselves and how my mom and dad would laugh in their company. I just realized it is the laughter that is associated with this raunchy vocabulary that i remember the most.I guess I learned from the best.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 2013-01-31, at 10:44 AM, John Halucha wrote:
>
> > What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.
> > With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the KSVM. Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to talk about it.
> >
> > Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech CiÃ≥â≥¢ szlag trafi" or "Niech CiÃ≥â≥¢ jasny szlag trafi"? That translates substantially more harshly than Google told you, something like "May a stroke strike you" or "May a clear stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear or bright, often used to emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how ultra-polite Polish demands a capital letter on "You" even with a curse? Directly opposite of English, which uses the capital for I but leaves you lower case. Charming, no?
> > "Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was funny and unreal to me.
> > When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia krew" or "psia koÃ∑â•ºÃ≥â•¡" which literally translate to "dog's blood" and "dog's bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.
> > My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w kÃ∞Â“Ã∑â•˚ko golony", which Google informs me means "shaved over and over again." I thought it translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I supposed referred to the hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either is correct or why either would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification gratefully acknowledged.
> > Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think. Yup, I was that kind of kid sometimes.
> > Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something like, "kÃ∞Â“Ã∑â•˚k a w kÃ∞Â“Ã∑â•˚ku dziura". I thought it meant "a knot (as in wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.
> > "Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta": isn't worth shit.
> > One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I picked it up somewhere along the way.
> > Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was heard frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is "Ã∆ÂµÃ∆Â±Ã∆Â°Ã`â•˚Ã`Å' Ã`â•˚Ã∆Â”Ã∆Â≤Ã`Å∏ Ã∆ÂπÃ∆Â°Ã`â•˚Ã`Å'". In English letters it sounds to me something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too rude even for me to tackle here, but it is close to the infamous current English curse "m...f...er". Google will probably translate more accurately for those who want to look it up themselves.
> >
> > No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier generations. This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has happened in English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything these days but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when I was an adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild expression.
> > This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to preserve the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?
> >
> > John Halucha
> > Sault Ste Marie, Canada
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> > Zenon,
> >
> > I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google tells me it simply means "damn it".
> >
> > His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!
> >
> > And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother, shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.
> >
> > The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!
> >
> > It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.
> >
> > This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:
> >
> > "Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
> > "pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll drink the ink.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Rysiu,
> > >
> > > Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...
> > >
> > > My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.
> > >
> > > Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> > > Zenon Kuzik
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: ryszardsys
> > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Zenon,
> > >
> > > I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".
> > >
> > > I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
> > >
> > > Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!
> > >
> > > Rys
> > > UK
> > >
> > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Rysiu,
> > > >
> > > > At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> > > >
> > > > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
> > > >
> > > > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> > > >
> > > > Zenon Kuzik
> > > > New Zealand
> > > >
> > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> > > >
> > > > Not for the faint hearted.
> > > >
> > > > Rys
> > > > UK
> >
>

#54572

From: "ryszardsys" <ryszardsys@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:57 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

ryszardsys

Today I received some more information tying my branch of the Sys name with the
dozens in Belarus and Lithuania.  It was from a very old cousin of mine who
lives in Daukszyszki in today's Belarus.  She was born in 1922.  I asked her if
she could remember if her grandfather had any brothers who lived in the villages
of Miciuny or Matski.  "No.  I don't think he did.  But when I was a little
girl, we used to visit family in Matski and Miciuny.  I don't know which family"
She said.  Well, having done the transcription of both of those villages
residents, I knew that the majority of both of those villages were people with
the Sys surname and they must have been brothers of her granddad!

Most of them were "repatriated" to Lithuania in the 1950's, but some remained
and a very few were "repatriated" to Poland, with two tiny branches, mine
included, ending up here in the UK via Anders.

My cousin said "well dziadek didn't speak Polish.  He only spoke Lithuanian but
we don't like to speak about that".  It looks like that back in the late 19th
Century, my Sys family were Lithuanian (from a Swedish father but that's another
story).  There looks like there were 8 brothers, my great granddad one of them. 
Those who married Polish women, we are today Polish, those who married
Lithuanian women, now live in Lithuania and those who married Belarussian women,
still live in Belarus.

I guess what looks like has happened is that each branch of the family, although
rooted ethnically and as citizens of Lithuania, some 100 years later are three
distinct ethnicities and citizens and it is all based on their mothers!

It seems us men have little influence in these matters....or at least those in
the Sys family!

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan  wrote:
>
> Hello Rys,
>
> Mac (Match) is very old Polish - Polish and Russian have a common root and
it's fascinating when you study old Polish. So we lost it, and they kept it; and
now it's crept back. Great fun.
>
> Basia (UK)
> On 31 Jan 2013, at 19:08, ryszardsys wrote:
>
> > Well this has certainly stirred up the essence of what we (or our parents)
were.
> >
> > I hear the word "mac" (or "match" phonetically) used widely now with "Kor**"
- its actually Russian for mother that has moved its way into Polish.
> >
> > Oh yes and dziadek would often lead with "Niech Ci ...."
> >
> > This is sort of related, but in the UK a couple of years ago we had a
documentary about the lack of men in Poland because they were all in the UK.
They cited plumbers as the example. So the reporter rang a plumbers firm in
Krakow I think and spoke to a lady.
> > "Yes. I have a leak can you send a plumber please?"
> > "Certainly. He'll be with you in half an hour."
> > "Half an hour?"
> > "Yes right. Prosze Pana. You can't find a plumber, so where am I supposed to
find a plumber...."
> >
> > I translated for me wife but what it lacked was the complete sarcasm that
came with her use of Polish.
> >
> > I had something similar a couple of years back when I rented a car in Poland
(and they filled it with Petrol instead of Diesel). I was on the phone to the
rental company some 200 miles away in Katowice. We had many exchanges with her
telling me that it was the immobiliser and in the end, I resorted to their
sarcasm:
> >
> > "Do you not have immobilisers on your cars in the UK? Of course you don't
because we steal them all and bring them to Poland" She said
> > "Yes, but our don't make our diesel smell like petrol. But then I suppose
this is cheap Russian gowno you have to buy" I said
> >
> > ....
> >
> > Next day there was a replacement sent after a long long wait...There was a
slight problem so I rang her again:
> >
> > "And have you got the car? Are you happy with it?" She said
> > "Yes. Its very nice but it took so long I thought you might be delivering it
by horse and cart which we don't have in England"
> > "Well we didn't want another one broken did we Pan?" She said
> > "No. But could you explain something to me. In England, I usually use a
hammer and a screw driver, but I'm not sure you have this technology in Poland"
I said
> > "What do you mean. We even have computers here" She said
> > "Well, when I don't have a key for the ignition, I use a hammer and
screwdriver, so please advise what you use here in Poland"
> >
> > ....it turns out the driver forget to leave me the key.
> >
> > Virtually everywhere I went in Poland, I found nothing but sarcastic, rude
service that would get you fired here in England, but, once I joined in, it was
great.
> >
> > I guess my point is that Polish is a sarcastic language, which, when used
well, as with our fore-fathers, has an expression and a passion about it which I
have never come across before and really puts a smile on my face.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Anne Kaczanowski wrote:
> > >
> > > I remember as a kid, friends of my parents.....women in particular who
were like the baba in the video. I loved those women and how confidently they
expressed themselves and how my mom and dad would laugh in their company. I just
realized it is the laughter that is associated with this raunchy vocabulary that
i remember the most.I guess I learned from the best.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On 2013-01-31, at 10:44 AM, John Halucha wrote:
> > >
> > > > What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished
members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions
yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.
> > > > With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the
KSVM. Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on
ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were
featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame
if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to
talk about it.
> > > >
> > > > Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech CiÃ≥â≥¢ szlag
trafi" or "Niech CiÃ≥â≥¢ jasny szlag trafi"? That translates
substantially more harshly than Google told you, something like "May a stroke
strike you" or "May a clear stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear
or bright, often used to emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how
ultra-polite Polish demands a capital letter on "You" even with a curse?
Directly opposite of English, which uses the capital for I but leaves you lower
case. Charming, no?
> > > > "Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but
Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has
about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on
a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their
hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying
the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was
funny and unreal to me.
> > > > When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia
krew" or "psia koÃ�`â•ºÃ≥â•¡" which literally translate to "dog's
blood" and "dog's bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.
> > > > My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w
kÃ∞Â“Ã�`â•˚ko golony", which Google informs me means "shaved over
and over again." I thought it translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I
supposed referred to the hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either
is correct or why either would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification
gratefully acknowledged.
> > > > Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think.
Yup, I was that kind of kid sometimes.
> > > > Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was
something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something
like, "kÃ∞Â“Ã�`â•˚k a w kÃ∞Â“Ã�`â•˚ku dziura". I thought
it meant "a knot (as in wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.
> > > > "Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta":
isn't worth shit.
> > > > One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I
picked it up somewhere along the way.
> > > > Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was
heard frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is
"Ã∆ÂµÃ∆Â±Ã∆Â°Ã`â•˚Ã`Å'
Ã`â•˚Ã∆Â”Ã∆Â≤Ã`Å∏ Ã∆ÂπÃ∆Â°Ã`â•˚Ã`Å'". In
English letters it sounds to me something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too
rude even for me to tackle here, but it is close to the infamous current English
curse "m...f...er". Google will probably translate more accurately for those who
want to look it up themselves.
> > > >
> > > > No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier
generations. This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has
happened in English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything
these days but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when
I was an adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild
expression.
> > > > This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to
preserve the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?
> > > >
> > > > John Halucha
> > > > Sault Ste Marie, Canada
> > > >
> > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Zenon,
> > > >
> > > > I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired
me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed
that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google
tells me it simply means "damn it".
> > > >
> > > > His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste,
siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to
fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire".
Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!
> > > >
> > > > And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother,
shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words
over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.
> > > >
> > > > The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will
run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!
> > > >
> > > > It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.
> > > >
> > > > This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe
some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:
> > > >
> > > > "Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
> > > > "pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and
he'll drink the ink.
> > > >
> > > > Rys
> > > > UK
> > > >
> > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Rysiu,
> > > > >
> > > > > Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my
Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a
family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not
to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube
clip brought them all back...
> > > > >
> > > > > My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several
times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia
referred to above.
> > > > >
> > > > > Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> > > > > Zenon Kuzik
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Zenon,
> > > > >
> > > > > I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum
and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966
and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek
looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so
he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread
underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless
birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when
she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical
yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes
there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it
come out as "hoolera".
> > > > >
> > > > > I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek
had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My
shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled
the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought
what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged
them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him
what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say),
then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to
black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out,
in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any
Polish swear words!
> > > > >
> > > > > Rys
> > > > > UK
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Rysiu,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At your behest, I came across the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my
cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear
Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided
that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old"
Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work
here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa".
They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles
do. So very, very true...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Zenon Kuzik
> > > > > > New Zealand
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las",
there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not for the faint hearted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rys
> > > > > > UK
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

#54573

From: Barbara Milligan <bwbm5@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:07 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Kresy expressions [was Ethnicity vs. citizenship]

basia5milligan

Rys, you're researches are very impressive. As to your last sentence, it's good to see your family has things in the right perspective.....

Basia (UK)

On 31 Jan 2013, at 19:57, ryszardsys wrote:

Today I received some more information tying my branch of the Sys name with the dozens in Belarus and Lithuania. It was from a very old cousin of mine who lives in Daukszyszki in today's Belarus. She was born in 1922. I asked her if she could remember if her grandfather had any brothers who lived in the villages of Miciuny or Matski. "No. I don't think he did. But when I was a little girl, we used to visit family in Matski and Miciuny. I don't know which family" She said. Well, having done the transcription of both of those villages residents, I knew that the majority of both of those villages were people with the Sys surname and they must have been brothers of her granddad!

Most of them were "repatriated" to Lithuania in the 1950's, but some remained and a very few were "repatriated" to Poland, with two tiny branches, mine included, ending up here in the UK via Anders.

My cousin said "well dziadek didn't speak Polish. He only spoke Lithuanian but we don't like to speak about that". It looks like that back in the late 19th Century, my Sys family were Lithuanian (from a Swedish father but that's another story). There looks like there were 8 brothers, my great granddad one of them. Those who married Polish women, we are today Polish, those who married Lithuanian women, now live in Lithuania and those who married Belarussian women, still live in Belarus.

I guess what looks like has happened is that each branch of the family, although rooted ethnically and as citizens of Lithuania, some 100 years later are three distinct ethnicities and citizens and it is all based on their mothers!

It seems us men have little influence in these matters....or at least those in the Sys family!

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan wrote:
>
> Hello Rys,
>
> Mac (Match) is very old Polish - Polish and Russian have a common root and it's fascinating when you study old Polish. So we lost it, and they kept it; and now it's crept back. Great fun.
>
> Basia (UK)
> On 31 Jan 2013, at 19:08, ryszardsys wrote:
>
> > Well this has certainly stirred up the essence of what we (or our parents) were.
> >
> > I hear the word "mac" (or "match" phonetically) used widely now with "Kor**" - its actually Russian for mother that has moved its way into Polish.
> >
> > Oh yes and dziadek would often lead with "Niech Ci ...."
> >
> > This is sort of related, but in the UK a couple of years ago we had a documentary about the lack of men in Poland because they were all in the UK. They cited plumbers as the example. So the reporter rang a plumbers firm in Krakow I think and spoke to a lady.
> > "Yes. I have a leak can you send a plumber please?"
> > "Certainly. He'll be with you in half an hour."
> > "Half an hour?"
> > "Yes right. Prosze Pana. You can't find a plumber, so where am I supposed to find a plumber...."
> >
> > I translated for me wife but what it lacked was the complete sarcasm that came with her use of Polish.
> >
> > I had something similar a couple of years back when I rented a car in Poland (and they filled it with Petrol instead of Diesel). I was on the phone to the rental company some 200 miles away in Katowice. We had many exchanges with her telling me that it was the immobiliser and in the end, I resorted to their sarcasm:
> >
> > "Do you not have immobilisers on your cars in the UK? Of course you don't because we steal them all and bring them to Poland" She said
> > "Yes, but our don't make our diesel smell like petrol. But then I suppose this is cheap Russian gowno you have to buy" I said
> >
> > ....
> >
> > Next day there was a replacement sent after a long long wait...There was a slight problem so I rang her again:
> >
> > "And have you got the car? Are you happy with it?" She said
> > "Yes. Its very nice but it took so long I thought you might be delivering it by horse and cart which we don't have in England"
> > "Well we didn't want another one broken did we Pan?" She said
> > "No. But could you explain something to me. In England, I usually use a hammer and a screw driver, but I'm not sure you have this technology in Poland" I said
> > "What do you mean. We even have computers here" She said
> > "Well, when I don't have a key for the ignition, I use a hammer and screwdriver, so please advise what you use here in Poland"
> >
> > ....it turns out the driver forget to leave me the key.
> >
> > Virtually everywhere I went in Poland, I found nothing but sarcastic, rude service that would get you fired here in England, but, once I joined in, it was great.
> >
> > I guess my point is that Polish is a sarcastic language, which, when used well, as with our fore-fathers, has an expression and a passion about it which I have never come across before and really puts a smile on my face.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Anne Kaczanowski wrote:
> > >
> > > I remember as a kid, friends of my parents.....women in particular who were like the baba in the video. I loved those women and how confidently they expressed themselves and how my mom and dad would laugh in their company. I just realized it is the laughter that is associated with this raunchy vocabulary that i remember the most.I guess I learned from the best.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On 2013-01-31, at 10:44 AM, John Halucha wrote:
> > >
> > > > What an interesting thread! I hope some of our older more distinguished members are not too shy to contribute. Even if you never used such expressions yourselves (ahem), surely must have heard them from time to time.
> > > > With enough input, this might be considered for a sub-gallery in the KSVM. Or is there one already and I haven't found it yet? I saw a documentary on ancient Rome recently in which curses, graffiti and jokes (many off-colour) were featured as part of the culture that we seldom if ever hear. It would be a shame if this part of our culture were to be lost because we are too embarrassed to talk about it.
> > > >
> > > > Rys, is it possible your dziadek was saying, "Niech CiÃ∞â≈¥Ã¢â≈¥Â¢ szlag trafi" or "Niech CiÃ∞â≈¥Ã¢â≈¥Â¢ jasny szlag trafi"? That translates substantially more harshly than Google told you, something like "May a stroke strike you" or "May a clear stroke strike you". I think jasny/jasna means clear or bright, often used to emphasize in situations like these. BTW, notice how ultra-polite Polish demands a capital letter on "You" even with a curse? Directly opposite of English, which uses the capital for I but leaves you lower case. Charming, no?
> > > > "Cholera jasna" literally means "clear cholera" or "bright cholera" but Google sort of captures the spirit with the English "damn it," I guess. Has about the same emphasis, from what I have seen - though when I said "cholera" on a trip to Poland in 1972 my female cousins would blush and giggle behind their hands. Language is convention, and if everyone in a culture decides that saying the name of a dirty disease is dirty language, then it is so - though it was funny and unreal to me.
> > > > When I was a child I would hear the expressions of frustration "psia krew" or "psia koÃ∞â√`Ã¢â•¢ÂºÃ∞â≈¥Ã¢â•¢Â¡" which literally translate to "dog's blood" and "dog's bone" but had a decidedly stronger tone in Polish.
> > > > My mother would sometime's admonish my father as "w kÃ∞â√ıÃ≠â•˛Ã∞â√`Ã¢â•¢Ë˚ko golony", which Google informs me means "shaved over and over again." I thought it translated as "guy shaved in a circle", which I supposed referred to the hairstyle sported by some monks. I don't know if either is correct or why either would be even mildly insulting. Any clarification gratefully acknowledged.
> > > > Anyone else ever been called czort or licho? Both mean devil, I think. Yup, I was that kind of kid sometimes.
> > > > Another one I remember fondly and hope members can help me with was something my father would say when presented with a surprise problem, something like, "kÃ∞â√ıÃ≠â•˛Ã∞â√`Ã¢â•¢Ë˚k a w kÃ∞â√ıÃ≠â•˛Ã∞â√`Ã¢â•¢Ë˚ku dziura". I thought it meant "a knot (as in wood), and a hole in that knot" but that's a guess.
> > > > "Guwno" literally means crap, but in the sense of BS. Or, "guwno warta": isn't worth shit.
> > > > One I never heard as a kid was "syn z kurwy", or "son of a whore", but I picked it up somewhere along the way.
> > > > Another one that is probably appropriate for our lineup since it was heard frequently in Russian in the gulags, etc., is "Ã∞â√∫Ã≠ÂµÃ∞â√∫Ã≠Â±Ã∞â√∫Ã≠Â°Ã∞`Ã¢â•¢Ë˚Ã∞`Ã∑' Ã∞`Ã¢â•¢Ë˚Ã∞â√∫Ã≠â•ˇÃ∞â√∫Ã≠â≈¤Ã∞`Ã∑â√∂ Ã∞â√∫Ã≠Ï•Ã∞â√∫Ã≠Â°Ã∞`Ã¢â•¢Ë˚Ã∞`Ã∑'". In English letters it sounds to me something like, "yopt tvoya match". This is too rude even for me to tackle here, but it is close to the infamous current English curse "m...f...er". Google will probably translate more accurately for those who want to look it up themselves.
> > > >
> > > > No doubt, young Poles of today curse differently than earlier generations. This should not come as a surprise, since a similar evolution has happened in English. I hear young people throwing the "f" word into everything these days but I never would have done it in front of my parents, not even when I was an adult. It used to be excruciatingly rude, but now seems a mild expression.
> > > > This evolution is another indicator that we need to do our part to preserve the old expressions before they are lost forever. If not us, who?
> > > >
> > > > John Halucha
> > > > Sault Ste Marie, Canada
> > > >
> > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:48:34 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Zenon,
> > > >
> > > > I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google tells me it simply means "damn it".
> > > >
> > > > His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!
> > > >
> > > > And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother, shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.
> > > >
> > > > The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!
> > > >
> > > > It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.
> > > >
> > > > This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:
> > > >
> > > > "Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
> > > > "pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll drink the ink.
> > > >
> > > > Rys
> > > > UK
> > > >
> > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Rysiu,
> > > > >
> > > > > Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...
> > > > >
> > > > > My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.
> > > > >
> > > > > Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> > > > > Zenon Kuzik
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Zenon,
> > > > >
> > > > > I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".
> > > > >
> > > > > I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!
> > > > >
> > > > > Rys
> > > > > UK
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Rysiu,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Zenon Kuzik
> > > > > > New Zealand
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: ryszardsys
> > > > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not for the faint hearted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rys
> > > > > > UK
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

#54574

From: "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:43 pm
Subject: Poetry of Leokadia Ogrodnik

annapacewicz

Dear group,

Our friend and Sydney Members Grazyna and Janusz Tydda very kindly scanned the
poetry book of Siberak Leokadia Ogrodnik. Pani Leokadia is very elderly and
living Warsaw and she is thrilled to share her book with us.

Thanks to Krysyna Szypowska who uploaded this to HoM:

http://kresy-siberia.org/hom/element/poetry-of-leokadia-ogrodnik

There is also a WoN profile for her� (see�
http://kresy-siberia.org/won/?page_id=19&lang=en&id=124605).

Kind regards
Anna Pacewicz
Sydney
�

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#54575

From: "Lenarda Szymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:47 pm
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Rys, how language differs from house to house and Google is an innocent child.

“Szlak trafi”- I asked my mother about this ( last year 2012)and Szlak was a sickness where people drop dead for no reason and trying to equate it to modern sickness and the closest, was when a person has a STROKE, as we all know a lot of today’s sickness was not known back then. So to say “niech Szlak trafi” was not nice and almost a curse, meaning MAY THE DROP DEAD SICKNESS GET YOU.

Also “Cholera jasna” pronounced Holera, in our house, refers back to when people got sick from actual Cholera. The area did experience waves of Typhoid (my grandmother caught this), Measles (which killed my mothers’ brother, the entire family of children getting sick at once, quarantined and one died) and Cholera, so the term refered to the “White death” and anything horrible that happened, people would use this as a cuss word, like damn it.

“Pioruny” I always though meant stinky or full of stench. Foul smelling. Odorous. But after checking my ancient English/Polish dictionary, by J. Stanislawski, English Reader in the University of Cracow and reprinted in 1947, by J. ROLLS BOOK CO. LTD. London. You are absolutely correct and it does mean thunder, thunderbolt.

In our house we always used the word Grzmot (this is such a mouthful to say for a kid, but we had to use it) i Izkra, Thunder and Lightning, so I was unfamiliar with this word “Pioruny” except for cussing and parents never explained cuss words to children and if we cussed, our mouth would be washed out with soap and were told we were humiliation our parents, but they could do this, because they were adults.

Further check of Dictionary provided these meanings for Polish to English:-

Cholera – according to above dictionary means – Choleric, irascible, bilious.

Szla(cze)k – border, edge, selvage, track, trail, path, trace

Szlak – slag

Szlach-cianka, - noblewoman, szlachcic nobleman, szlachecki of noblemans, nobility, genty etc. (Could it have been used as an old term for a Serf cussing his nobleman and got corrupted as with all cuss words?)or a worker cussing his boss?

And also, English to Polish:-

Stroke – uderzenie, raz, przystep, napad, porazenie,pociagniecie, gladzic, glaskac, szlakowy, wi slarz.

Here you have English to Polish, words are not black and white, but many shades of grey, speech in pictures with Polish being a describing language i.e. objects made of wood, no matter what, had a derivative of the word TREE (DRZEWO) and the passion behind them.

My father was a Polish Cavalry Artillery, hauling Cannons with horses, from Warsaw and my mother from the Kresy, when they exploded, all these words would come out, and they were common to the time.

Regards,

Lenarda, Australia

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ryszardsys
Sent: Friday, 01 February, 2013 12:49 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

#54576

From: Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:18 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

r52302

This is some great stuff, I am compelled to jump in. I remember all of it--niech cie szlak trafi, cholera jasna (always thrown around the house); z kur** syn (rarely used).

Every once in a while dad would be watching tv and comment on some character "ale to czorta wnuczek!" Anyone remember that one? Sorry,I never learned to spell Polish properly.

Or how about when describing something that won't stop following you around, like a pest, "jak smrut po gaciach".

Rich, USA

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2013, at 5:47 PM, "Lenarda Szymczak" <szymczak01@...> wrote:

Rys, how language differs from house to house and Google is an innocent child.

“Szlak trafi”- I asked my mother about this ( last year 2012)and Szlak was a sickness where people drop dead for no reason and trying to equate it to modern sickness and the closest, was when a person has a STROKE, as we all know a lot of today’s sickness was not known back then. So to say “niech Szlak trafi” was not nice and almost a curse, meaning MAY THE DROP DEAD SICKNESS GET YOU.

Also “Cholera jasna” pronounced Holera, in our house, refers back to when people got sick from actual Cholera. The area did experience waves of Typhoid (my grandmother caught this), Measles (which killed my mothers’ brother, the entire family of children getting sick at once, quarantined and one died) and Cholera, so the term refered to the “White death” and anything horrible that happened, people would use this as a cuss word, like damn it.

“Pioruny” I always though meant stinky or full of stench. Foul smelling. Odorous. But after checking my ancient English/Polish dictionary, by J. Stanislawski, English Reader in the University of Cracow and reprinted in 1947, by J. ROLLS BOOK CO. LTD. London. You are absolutely correct and it does mean thunder, thunderbolt.

In our house we always used the word Grzmot (this is such a mouthful to say for a kid, but we had to use it) i Izkra, Thunder and Lightning, so I was unfamiliar with this word “Pioruny” except for cussing and parents never explained cuss words to children and if we cussed, our mouth would be washed out with soap and were told we were humiliation our parents, but they could do this, because they were adults.

Further check of Dictionary provided these meanings for Polish to English:-

Cholera – according to above dictionary means – Choleric, irascible, bilious.

Szla(cze)k – border, edge, selvage, track, trail, path, trace
Szlak – slag
Szlach-cianka, - noblewoman, szlachcic nobleman, szlachecki of noblemans, nobility, genty etc. (Could it have been used as an old term for a Serf cussing his nobleman and got corrupted as with all cuss words?)or a worker cussing his boss?

And also, English to Polish:-

Stroke – uderzenie, raz, przystep, napad, porazenie,pociagniecie, gladzic, glaskac, szlakowy, wi slarz.

Here you have English to Polish, words are not black and white, but many shades of grey, speech in pictures with Polish being a describing language i.e. objects made of wood, no matter what, had a derivative of the word TREE (DRZEWO) and the passion behind them.

My father was a Polish Cavalry Artillery, hauling Cannons with horses, from Warsaw and my mother from the Kresy, when they exploded, all these words would come out, and they were common to the time.

Regards,
Lenarda, Australia

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ryszardsys
Sent: Friday, 01 February, 2013 12:49 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship

Zenon,

I remember dziadek using the term "szlak jasny trafi". This has inspired me to google translate it and it simply means "the trail will clear". I assumed that "cholera jasna" was something very very rude back in the 1960's, but google tells me it simply means "damn it".

His, under the breath mumblings would include "Pioruny, ogniste, siarczyste". Pioruny I know as "lightning", ogniste I always knew as related to fire, so I googled the rest. And this translates as "Sulphorous lightning fire". Brilliant. What a great way to vent your frustration!

And, do you know what? I can see him now wandering away from my mother, shouting these things and waving his arms in the air mumbling these very words over and over again. Not one sign of what I consider a swear word.

The next time I bump into one of the new wave of Poles, I think I will run these phrases past them and see what their reaction is!

It is almost poetical, but definately passionate.

This has reminded me of the multitude of sayings he used to say. Maybe some of you have more and maybe some of you know these:

"Wyzej sra jak dupe ma" - Someone aiming above their station !!!
"pusc chama do biura i wypije atrament" - take a boor to an office and he'll drink the ink.

Rys
UK

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
>
> Dear Rysiu,
>
> Among the Polish community here in NZ, I remember hearing one of my Ciocias (not my actual aunt, you understand, but a term of endearment for a family friend) constantly saying "Cholera" and pronouncing it as "Hoolera", not to mention the frequent use of "Szlak". Ah, such fond memories, and the YouTube clip brought them all back...
>
> My father, brother and I have listened to Babka rant and rave several times, and I have forwarded the link to one of the children of the Ciocia referred to above.
>
> Greetings from a sweltering NZ,
> Zenon Kuzik
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ryszardsys
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
>
>
>
> Zenon,
>
> I remember my dziadek fondly. In the 1960's when I was young, my mum and dad would work so my dziadek looked after me. I had my tonsils out in 1966 and had a long stay at home (because I bled afterwards) so I have dziadek looking after me for about 8 weeks. He clearly saw I was bored out of my mind so he set up large boxes in the garden, propped on one side with a stick, put bread underneath and ran the string into the house through a window. We caught endless birds, and yes it was so wrong, but I remember the tirade he gave my mum when she told him we're in England now and you can't do this. The tirade was comical yet I have no recollection of a single word you could classify as swearing. Yes there was "cholera jasna" but that's not swearing and his Russian accent made it come out as "hoolera".
>
> I was reminded by my dad the other day of another incident. My dziadek had took me out in the snow and I wasn't supposed to go out of the house. My shoes got wet and he tried to dry them on the stove. They caught fire and filled the whole house with a horrible stench. He quickly ran to the shop and bought what he thought were an identical pair, came home and proudly scuffed and aged them a little. My mum came home to the remnants of the stench and then asked him what had happened "Nic!" So she asked if I'd been out "Niet" (as he would say), then she asked what happened to my shoes because they'd gone from brown to black! Well that was it..."Szlak this szlak that, he's a kid he should go out, in Russia he'd be out...." etc. etc.
>
> Yet, until I went to poland in 1973, I was totally unaware of any Polish swear words!
>
> Rys
> UK
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Zenon Kuzik wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rysiu,
> >
> > At your behest, I came across the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYdpGkqhUJY . The tears came streaming down my cheeks; I haven't laughed so much in ages!! I played this back to my dear Lwowiak father, and he almost wet himself. Note in the clip on the link provided that Babka is pointing at someone with my name. Ha, ha.
> >
> > Re your comment: And herein lies the difference between the "old" Poles who came from Kresy and the "new" Poles who have crossed Europe to work here in the UK. The "new" Poles swear terribly; every second word is "K**wa". They lack the skill to make use of the basic language in the way the "old" Poles do. So very, very true...
> >
> > Thank you so much - you certainly made my day, and my father's.
> >
> > Zenon Kuzik
> > New Zealand
> >
> > From: ryszardsys
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2013 4:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Ethnicity vs. citizenship
> >
> >
> >
> > I know I shouldn't but if you google "youtube pieniadze za las", there is an old lady on the telephone giving a fair account of old Polish!!!!!
> >
> > Not for the faint hearted.
> >
> > Rys
> > UK
>

#54577

From: Mark <turkiewiczm@...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:56 pm
Subject: INR looking for DNA?

turkiewiczm

News

Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism

Hi Folks,
Wish I could get in on the smutty humor but I dont speak Polish. Only familiar term to me is Koorva. The Google translations are hilarious. I guess the really bad word at the end of John's message may translate like 'maternally affectionate'.
On a subject switch, has anyone heard of the article below? I think I am the next male in my family line and wonder about it.

On 28 September 2012 the Institute of National Remembrance - Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation and the Pomeranian Medical University in Szczecin signed an agreement on the Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism. The act of agreement was signed by Dr. Lukasz Kaminski, President of the Institute of National Remembrance and Prof. Andrzej Ciechanowicz, Rector of the Pomeranian Medical University in Szczecin.
Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism is a strategic step of the research project "The search for unknown burial places of victims of the Communist terror in the years 1944-1956". The project includes activities such as IPN exhumations at the Powazki Cemetery. Simple methods for identification of victims, such as by objects of material culture and anthropological research, are no longer sufficient and it is necessary to genetically identify of victims. Scientific and technological development allows for the use of the latest methods of judicial genetics in the personal identification.
Genetic identification is determined by comparing the DNA profile from the genetic material coming from family members or DNA material derived from the personal belongings of the victims. Thus, creating the DNA database of comparative material of the victims and their relatives, becomes a crucial task. The database will allow for research in this field for many years. Creating the DNA database is the only chance to obtain appropriate reference material, eliminating the risk of passing time, which is of decisive importance.
Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism is the first of this type, such complex base in Europe. Russian Federation and Germany also plan to build similar databases, though of lesser size. It is also a unique operation worldwide. United States, United Kingdom, Australia possess similar databases, but of forensics kind.
Donations to support the functioning of Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism can be directed to the following account:
III Oddział w Szczecinie
06 1090 1492 0000 0001 0053 7752
marked " Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism"

Mark T.
Canada

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#54578

From: "Lenarda Szymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 12:29 am
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] INR looking for DNA?

Mark, no smut involved, even if you do not understand Polish, know it to be a simple play on words, it was normal and still is for Polish people to be humorous and sarcastic, (the Polish of the old school, don’t know about Modern Poland) when dealing with hardship and tragedy, they could use simple descriptive words, with no indecent, inappropriate words, even entered into, except for the word most men used of Cur............but we will not go into this, as this was mainly used for enemy.

Polish is a very picturesque, describing language and I remember reading in one of the posts that Polish soldiers after the war, would sing, dance, get drunk and then cry, when their inner feelings came out. It was a form of Stoic Sarcasm, to hide their inner feelings, or to display frustration (passion) to help them get on with the hardship of life, showing that they were a complex people, an honest people and it brought back to us, the memory of our parents and relatives as that language was common to that specific time of pre-war and post-war.

The Polish Genetic Database is great news; can orphans be traced and placed with a specific family DNA? Such as distant relative? Also it could widen the gap between ethnicity and citizenship.

Regards,

Lenarda, Australia

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Friday, 01 February, 2013 10:56 AM
To: kresy-siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] INR looking for DNA?

News

Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism

Hi Folks,

Wish I could get in on the smutty humor but I dont speak Polish. Only familiar term to me is Koorva. The Google translations are hilarious. I guess the really bad word at the end of John's message may translate like 'maternally affectionate'.

On a subject switch, has anyone heard of the article below? I think I am the next male in my family line and wonder about it.

On 28 September 2012 the Institute of National Remembrance - Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation and the Pomeranian Medical University in Szczecin signed an agreement on the Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism. The act of agreement was signed by Dr. Lukasz Kaminski, President of the Institute of National Remembrance and Prof. Andrzej Ciechanowicz, Rector of the Pomeranian Medical University in Szczecin.

Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism is a strategic step of the research project "The search for unknown burial places of victims of the Communist terror in the years 1944-1956". The project includes activities such as IPN exhumations at the Powazki Cemetery. Simple methods for identification of victims, such as by objects of material culture and anthropological research, are no longer sufficient and it is necessary to genetically identify of victims. Scientific and technological development allows for the use of the latest methods of judicial genetics in the personal identification.

Genetic identification is determined by comparing the DNA profile from the genetic material coming from family members or DNA material derived from the personal belongings of the victims. Thus, creating the DNA database of comparative material of the victims and their relatives, becomes a crucial task. The database will allow for research in this field for many years. Creating the DNA database is the only chance to obtain appropriate reference material, eliminating the risk of passing time, which is of decisive importance.

Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism is the first of this type, such complex base in Europe. Russian Federation and Germany also plan to build similar databases, though of lesser size. It is also a unique operation worldwide. United States, United Kingdom, Australia possess similar databases, but of forensics kind.

Donations to support the functioning of Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism can be directed to the following account:
III Oddział w Szczecinie
06 1090 1492 0000 0001 0053 7752
marked " Polish Genetic Database of Victims of Totalitarianism"

Mark T.
Canada

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#54579

From: "Lenarda Szymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 1:00 am
Subject: NEW MUSEUM GALLERIES IN KS-well done a joy to read

Dear group and administrators, I think this is amazing feat and shows much work and research, well done, it is a pleasure to travel through and learn information.

As a member from the other side of the Riga Treaty Border of 1921, under the Zhitomirski Oblast, feel the wording could be changed slightly to accommodate people such as my family and others from this area.

Instead of reading - Gallery 1. Polish Borderlands

You are in: Room 1b.

Interwar Borderlands (1918-39)

Facts

The end of WW1 in 1918 saw the birth of the Second Republic of Poland, along with its multi-ethnic “Kresy” or eastern Borderlands.
The Treaty of Riga in 1921 set Poland’s eastern borders

And should perhaps read –

Gallery 1. Polish Borderlands

You are in: Room 1b.

Interwar Borderlands (1918-39)

Facts

The end of WW1 in 1918 saw the birth of the Second Republic of Poland, along with its multi-ethnic “Kresy” or eastern Borderlands which extended to Kiev pre 1921.
The Treaty of Riga in 1921 set Poland’s eastern borders, trapping many thousands of Polish behind the border/on the other side of the border on Soviet Soil.

Regards,

Lenarda, Australia

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#54580

From: "Vincent Geffroy" <geffroy@...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: number in the military forces

skydeberg