Dear Basia,

Jump down your throat? I really have no interest in bashing my home, the US or for that matter the Soviet Union. There are enough people ready to do that. My principle objection is to the idea that somehow Britain "gave" Poland to the USSR. When the Yalta accord was signed the Red Army was just days from entering Poznan. They HAD Poland already. The Kresy, Warsaw and most of pre-war Poland was in their hands. The question then follows what could be done about it? I would argue – very little.

John blames Churchill, you blame Roosevelt... I blame neither. There was nothing that could be done. What I object to is the agreement to it. They could have said no. What this would have achieved on the ground I really don't know, but they could have protested. But then why would they? They were promised free elections... did they believe it? Probably not, but then we Poles also have to take some of the blame. Mikolajczyk's return to Poland did no one any favours and led to the Provisional Government in Warsaw being recognised as being representative of the Polish people. Of course it was a fiction, but Poles from London went along with it too. Again, the British Government did nothing. They could have complained but chose not to. Again, they could do nothing about it in real terms, but at least the protest would have been made for posterity.

Rightious indignation is good and I have no interest in Brit bashing, but surely the policies of governments should be open for discussion.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

You know, I never noticed that! Of course Mr Weintraub is an American,
so perhaps he regards The War as beginning in December 1941?

(In much the same fashion, many Europeans regard The War as ending in
May 1945....)

But more likely he simply misunderstood the August 1939 Hitler-Stalin
pact as having actually divided eastern Europe, rather than simply
agreeing to a division that took place in September.

- Dan Ford US

On 1/2/2013 10:16 AM, John Halucha wrote:
> It appears "prewar", as in, "prewar Soviet encroachments in Europe,"
> is the author's own construction - it could be paraphrasing Stalin if
> not for the use of "encroachments".

Dear Basia,
No offence taken. I have a fairly low opinion of government full stop, and personally do not consider criticism of state policy as a criticism of the people. The actions of the Polish government in the 1930s are no more a reflection of the Polish people, than are the actions of Churchill, Thatcher or Blair a reflection of the British people... and for that matter we can apply this maxim to the German and Russian people too. I think this as a point worth repeating now and then.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

Salomon Tauber:
"I bear no hatred nor bitterness towards the German people.
Peoples are not evil.
Only individuals are evil."
Frederick Forsyth: The Odessa File

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan wrote:
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> I did not mean to blame; I was just joining in your and John's very interesting discussion. I would not wish to offend either of you for the world. I have the greatest respect for your and John's learning and opinions and it was not fair of me to pick on this discussion to vent my accumulated "fed-upness" with what I feel is sporadic Brit blaming.est wishes,
>
> Sorry, no offence intended.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Basia (UK)
> On 2 Jan 2013, at 20:36, Mark and Oyun wrote:
>
> >
> > Dear Basia,
> >
> > Jump down your throat? I really have no interest in bashing my home, the US or for that matter the Soviet Union. There are enough people ready to do that. My principle objection is to the idea that somehow Britain "gave" Poland to the USSR. When the Yalta accord was signed the Red Army was just days from entering Poznan. They HAD Poland already. The Kresy, Warsaw and most of pre-war Poland was in their hands. The question then follows what could be done about it? I would argue – very little.
> >
> > Even at Teheran in 1943 more could have and should have been done, but given the Red Army was already on its westward March, liberating Kiev the same month as the conference, Poland's fate was fairly obvious for anyone to see and Soviet occupation was but a matter of time... in my humble opinion.
> >
> > John blames Churchill, you blame Roosevelt... I blame neither. There was nothing that could be done. What I object to is the agreement to it. They could have said no. What this would have achieved on the ground I really don't know, but they could have protested. But then why would they? They were promised free elections... did they believe it? Probably not, but then we Poles also have to take some of the blame. Mikolajczyk's return to Poland did no one any favours and led to the Provisional Government in Warsaw being recognised as being representative of the Polish people. Of course it was a fiction, but Poles from London went along with it too. Again, the British Government did nothing. They could have complained but chose not to. Again, they could do nothing about it in real terms, but at least the protest would have been made for posterity.
> >
> > Rightious indignation is good and I have no interest in Brit bashing, but surely the policies of governments should be open for discussion.
> >
> > Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Milligan wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear John and Mark,
> > >
> > > So that you don't jump down my throat, I will state right now that I am not a great scholar of history. But, I must defend my dear old G.B.
> > >
> > > Churchill was on Poland's side. Roosevelt was not. He and Stalin sewed up a pact that is Yalta. Churchill had no option but to sign. No one fully realised that Russia was financially on its knees and could have been pushed back. Churchill did realise that a hugely impoverished G.B. could not fight on alone, so he had to sign. He was aware that the Brits did not have the resources or the money to fight on. The person who "gave" Poland to Stalin was Roosevelt. When America eventually gave aid to Britain, it was on the condition that every last cent was repaid with interest. We finished paying that debt a few years ago during Gordon Brown's premiership. During the war America had impounded all the assets owned by Brits living in America as security in case G.B. reneged on the debt. To cap it all, G.B. had to pay large sums to Germany in reparation for the damage they had done to it whilst defending themselves. I lived in that post-war Britain and know the privations and rationing we suffered for years after the war. It started to ease up in the 1960's.
> > >
> > > I was talking with my Polish family who said "the war finished for you in early 1945, but we fought on and it did not finish till the early '50's" That was the case as my Grandmother had lived with her bags and cases packed and a vast store of sugar to take back to Poland for barter. I can't remember if it was in 1951 or 3 that she gave up all hope of returning home. Needless to say the sugar had solidified because their barak was so damp and was binned.
> > >
> > > There is a goodly explosion of righteous indignation and I make no apologies for it as all the Brit bashing makes me very angry. The bulk of us would be living in Siberia now but for the Brits!
> > >
> > > Best wishes as always,
> > >
> > > Basia (UK)
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2 Jan 2013, at 16:52, Mark and Oyun wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear John,
> > > >
> > > > If I may leave the POW issue aside for one minute and talk on another point (re your previous post). Whilst I agree that the British may be criticised for many thing; they should not have recognised the Polish Provisional Government after the war; they probably should not have signed the Yalta Accord so readily, I really fail to see how one can argue that the British "gave" Poland to Stalin... or even "agreed to give" it. The British did not let the Soviet Union take Poland... it was going to happen anyway. I have yet to see any cogent policy brought forward that would have resulted in a solution that would have brought a conclusion different to the one that transpired. Certainly the British and US agreement made it legal on the world state (in not in fact de jure), but how would it have been any different if they had not agreed. After Stalingrad and Kursk the war, I would argue, was a foregone conclusion. Sooner or later Poland was going to end up re-occupied by the Red Army, and not just the Kresy. Alternative policies to prevent this? I can't think of any ˆ not without affecting the course of the war against Germany; the good war that definitely needed to be fought. I know there are some who would argue that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were of the same character: they were not. I have argued in previous threads that the fact there is a Poland today is a result of Soviet policy. 50 years of repression and communist hegemony could not wipe out Poland. 50 years of Nazi rule would have created a different reality. Yes the British appeased Stalin, just as they appeased Hitler, but there is a difference: in the 1930s the British could have affected the result. In the 1940s this was not the case. Having said that, a bluff is only as good as its credibility. Hitler knew there would be no war over the Sudetenland, just as Stalin knew there would be no war in 1944/5 over Poland... Churchill knew the same. What else was there to do other make the best of a bad deal? Sounds like an apology? Possibly. But the alternative?
> > > >
> > > > Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
> > > >
> > > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, John Halucha john.halucha@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > There sure are some interesting references in the excerpt you shared, Dan. Thank you.
> > > > > It appears "prewar", as in, "prewar Soviet encroachments in Europe," is the author's own construction - it could be paraphrasing Stalin if not for the use of "encroachments". The USSR (and at least some people in successor Russia today) regarded the war as beginning in June 1941 when German forces in occupied western Poland attacked Soviet forces in occupied eastern Poland. They wanted everyone to forget that the Soviets were German allies in their coordinated attack, invasion and partition of Poland in September 1939, and that the Soviets were partners of Germany in starting the Second World War. Of course, the author may be voicing the stance often seen among Americans that the war did not begin until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.
> > > > > Strange also, that the author would downplay and distort what the Soviets had done to Poland: "The Red Army had seized the Baltic states in 1940, taken territory from Finland, and former Czarist territory from Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland." By virtue of being the first and largest Soviet land-grab, Poland logically should be at the top of the list rather than appended to the end like an afterthought. And the USSR had not merely "taken ... former Czarist territory from ... Poland", it occupied a great chunk that had been under Austrian rule in the partitions prior to Poland regaining its independence in 1918.
> > > > > Churchill's private radio message to Attlee shows that at the end of 1941 he still espoused democratic ideals as enshrined in the Atlantic Charter. If so, it would not be long before he became "realistic", in the language of his apologists, and abandoned those principles to do what he considered in the best long-term interests of his British empire. He would even adopt part of the stance of his own avowed worst enemy, Hitler, giving approval to the 1939 boundary changes that Hitler had set up with his then-pal, Stalin. Churchill had to scooch over a bit in Adolf's chair to make room for his co-signer, Roosevelt.
> > > > > It often strikes me funny that when people in the West reflect that they fought the Good War in the 1940s, they can do so only if they restrict their thinking so it does not include Eastern Europe. Must be uncomfortable to recognize that the heroes Churchill and Roosevelt essentially mirrored Hitler in their agreement to give half of Poland as well as other territories to Stalin.
> > > > > Another strange twist is how many people scornfully denounce British PM Neville Chamberlain as a short-sighted, dim-witted appeaser of the tyrant Hitler but at the same time revere Churchill and Roosevelt, who were demonstrated to be short-sighted, dim-witted appeasers of the tyrant Stalin. If the "peace for our time" that WSC and FDR won by their agreements with Stalin existed at all, it certainly did not materialize for another half century in Eastern Europe under the communist yoke.
> > > > >
> > > > > John Halucha
> > > > >
> > > > > Sault Ste Marie, Canada
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Dan Ford cub06h@
> > > > > To: KRESY Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 4:05:21 PM
> > > > > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Stalin's western frontiers
> > > > >
> > > > > Stanley Weintraub has written some admirable history. "Pearl Harbor
> > > > > Christmas" is not much of a book, but there were some interesting
> > > > > references to how early Stalin made it clear where the Soviet Union's
> > > > > postwar borders would have to be. -- Dan Ford US
> > > > >
> > > > > Pearl Harbor Christmas: A World at War, December 1941
> > > > > by
> > > > > Stanley Weintraub
> > > > > The PM was still aboard the Duke of York approaching the East Coast
> > > > > when, on December 21, he received a radio encrypt from Eden in Moscow
> > > > > that, as the price of cooperation, Stalin, optimistic now that Germany
> > > > > could be turned back, had demanded secret Allied acceptance of prewar
> > > > > Soviet encroachments in Europe. The Red Army had seized the Baltic
> > > > > states in 1940, taken territory from Finland, and former Czarist
> > > > > territory from Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. Although all of it
> > > > > was now occupied by the Wehrmacht, the Soviets expected to outlast
> > > > > Hitler. ╲Stalin, I believe,╡ Eden added, ╲sincerely wants military
> > > > > agreements, but he will not sign until we recognize his frontiers, and
> > > > > we must expect badgering on this issue.╡ Churchill radioed his Deputy
> > > > > Prime Minister, Clement Attlee, that the demands violated the Atlantic
> > > > > Charter, ╲to which Stalin has subscribed,╡ and in any case no
> > > > > arrangement could be made ╲without prior agreement with the United
> > > > > States.╡ Stalinâ•˙s contempt for pieces of diplomatic paper and confidence
> > > > > about the Red Armyâ•˙s future control of the ground in question would keep
> > > > > the absorbed territories in the grip of Stalinâ•˙s successors until the
> > > > > implosion of the Soviet Union decades later. Churchill advised Attlee
> > > > > not to be ╲downhearted╡ if Eden should leave Moscow ╲without any
> > > > > flourish of trumpets.╡ And to Eden he conceded in a radiogram,
> > > > > ╲Naturally you will not be rough with Stalin,╡ but there could be no
> > > > > ╲secret and special pacts╡ without the United States.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edenâ•˙s mission to Moscow had failed. Stalin wanted no restrictions on
> > > > > war materiel supplied, whatever the struggle to get it past the
> > > > > Kriegsmarine in the Arctic or by any other means. Lend-Lease was neither
> > > > > lend nor lease. His suspicions of the West would only be mollified, he
> > > > > had insisted, by recognition by Britain and the United States of
> > > > > intended Russian frontiersâ•"land grabsâ•"as they existed at the moment of
> > > > > Hitlerâ•˙s invasion on June 21, 1941. He already knew there was no chance
> > > > > of Rooseveltâ•˙s agreement or that of the American
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

Dear Stefan,

448 survivors? Interesting. The usual figure is 395 (also on Wikipedia  "395 prisoners were spared from the slaughter,^[1] among them StanisÅ‚aw Swianiewicz and Józef Czapski.^[23] They were taken to the Yukhnov camp and then to Gryazovets.^[19]")   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre )

The number comes up again in another memo from Soprunenko:

No 92 May 25^th 1940

Total sent to Yukhnovsky camp - 395      

Among them:

a) to the 5th Dept. [Counter intelligence] Main Directorate for State Security - 47             

b) on request of the German Embassy - 47         

c) on request of the Mission of Lithuanian - 19  

e) Germans - 24

=============  137   

e) at the disposal of Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR. Comrade Merkulov - 91              

f) other - 167     

============= 258

Total 395

Head Of The NKVD Of The USSR

in cases of prisoners of war

Security Captain

P. Soprunenko

 http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html#13ch

Regards, Mark Ostrowski

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Mark and group,
>
>
> To add some info re: the situation of the Katyn survivors;
>
>
> According to Prof. Zawodny, of the 15,000 + Polish Officers held in the spring of 1940 in Koselsk, Starobelsk and Ostashkov, only 448 survived execution by the Soviets.
>
> These survivors were shipped in 7 seperate transports to an empty camp at Pavelishtchev Bor, just north of Kosielsk.
>
> April 25, 1940 - 63 men from Starobelsk, arriving at Pavelishtchev Bor on May 1, 1940
> April 26, 1940 - 150 men from Koselsk, arriving on April 26, 1940
> April 29, 1940 - 60 men from Ostashkov, arriving on May 4
> May 12, 1940 - 95 from Kozelsk, arriving on May 14
>
> May 12, 1940 - 16 from Starobelsk, arriving on May 17
> May 13, 1940 - 45 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 18
>
> May 16. 1940 - 16 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 20
>
> After ongoing interogations and NKVD attempts to convert them them to Communism, the remaining men spontaneously started to split into three main groups; those with some
> pro-Soviet sentiment (about 50 men), about 30 who claimed German - not Polish - ancestry,and the rest who remainded anti-Soviet. 12 of the 30 "Germans" were considered
>
> German enough, and given over to the custody of the Soviet allies at the German Embassy.  (Of the remaining 18 "Germans",
> one committed suicide upon the outbreak of war
>
> with the Nazis  .. while the fate
> of his teutonic companions after June 22, 1941 can be easily imagined.)
>
>
> On Sept. 10, 1940, 7 of the highest ranking pro-Soviet group from the camp were taken to Moscow, where they were wined and dined as potential leadershop material in a new
>
> Soviet Poland.  (All 7 later joined Anders Army when that opportunity arose. Zygmunt Berling later defected back to the Soviets, and, as we know, was tried by the Polish Army
>
> in absentia, and given a death sentance.)
>
>
> On June 13, 1941, just nine days before Barbarossa, the rest of the men were transported to a camp which Zadowny referrs to as "Grazovec", which very likely is the "Grazoveckom" 
> listed in Memorandam No. 155, posted here on Sunday.  On Sept. 1, 1941, the NKVD gaurds and administration were withdrawn, and the camp was set up as a Polish Army unit.
>
>
> Hope this is of interest.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stefan Jackowski
> Toronto
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@...
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:23:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
>
>
>  
> Dear Mark,
> Actually there is little evidence to doubt this document. We know that some officers did survive. We should remember that General Anders was also not executed. Nor were the other senior officers who made up the 2nd Polish Corps. A few other Generals survived: Boruta Spiechowicz, Przezdziecki and Januszajtis are three that sring to mind.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczys%C5%82aw_Boruta-Spiechowicz
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Prze%C5%BAdziecki
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Januszajtis-%C5%BBegota
> The key being that they were in in other prisons at the time of the mass killings. Most were in Moscow in the Lubianka being tortured. Colonel Rakowski (later General Officer Commanding 2nd Armoured Division) and my grandfather's GOC 5 Division Sulik (then a colonel) were also in the Lubianka.
> Others officers managed to convince their interrogators that they were either cooperative or not a threat. And others were just lucky… they were being held in other places and did not come into the Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov clearnaces.
> As to the prisoners working… My estimates put the total number of POWs held by the Soviets as around 54,000. The POWs who ended up with Anders were about half of this number and they were retained by their captors to work.  The approximately 16,000 victims of Katyn are also included from this group. Several thousand have also just disappeared from the figures; mostly casualties of death marches, air raids and NKVD brutality and harsh conditions. [My post 52978 for the numbers.(Although we did have a bit of a polemic re POW status which I really don't want to open up again)]
> ---------------------------
> â„â€" 130
> 1940 November 2, Moscow. - Memorandum from LP Beria IV Stalin's plans to set up in the Soviet Union military units of the Polish prisoners of war
> […]
> b) General-Borut Spehovich [5] stated that he can take certain steps only at the direction of the "government" Sikorsky, which, in his opinion, represents the interests of the Polish people;
> c) General Przhezdetsky [6] made ​​a statement similar to the statement Borut-Spehovicha;
> […]
> d) several colonels and lieutenant colonels (Burling [7], Bukoemsky [8], Gorchinskiy [9], Tyshinsky [10]) stated that they fully convey himself at the disposal of the Soviet power, and that very willingly take over a) the organization and guide any military connections as well) from the Polish prisoners of war, designed a) to deal with Germany a) in the interest of Poland as a nation-state. The future of Poland is thought to be closely related in one way or another with the Soviet Union.
> Regards, Mark Ostrowski
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark wrote:
> >
> > I see this report of June 1941 seems to list the POW status at the time.
> > It suggests 1259 officers are alive at that date and that Polish Army prisoners were left in the camps.
> > Who were these officers who escaped Katyn?
> > I did see what Dan said about confusing POWs from 'criminals', but I thought all Polish officers were deemed 'criminals', enemies of the people or whatever.
> > There is also reference to "former" POWs.
> > Even though I am nowhere in my research of the deports and the POWs, this is the first I heard of POWs working on an airfield in Ukr.
> > Is this a real document made at the time to cover up Katyn or a newly composed document?
> > What I wouldnt give to see my grandfather's file with NKWD!
> >  
> >
> > Mark T.
> > Canada
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Basia basia@
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:27:52 PM
> > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > This is fascinating Mark, somewhere in those numbers was my father.
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> >
> > Basia Zielinska (Sydney)
> >
> > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@...: Kresy-Siberia@...: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:05:57 -0000To: Kresy-Siberia@...: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> > Dear Dan,
> > To answer your question, about 26,000. probably the men listed below. Taken from the same source you are reading.
> > No. 155
> > June 22, 1941 Goda. Moscow. Memorandum V.v. Chernysheva and P.k. Soprunenko the existence of prisoners of war and interned in the NKVD camps
> > The people's Commissar of Internal Affairs
> > Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics
> > Comrade Beria, L.p. [1]
> > Report: ex-prisoners of war. Polish Army
> > 27760:
> > 14135 per. Ââ€" in the construction of airfields and roads in Western Ukraine.
> > 7754. on the construction of the Northern Pechora Railway,
> > 4000 people.on the construction of the airfield Ponoy River (imported 1000 persons) of the Murmansk region.
> > Officers are: 1259
> > in kozelsk camp Ââ€" 909 people.
> > the GrÃÆ'¢zoveckom camp is 350 people.
> > The remaining numbering 270 people. in the ÃÆ'›hnovskom camp (Smolensk Oblast).
> > To former prisoners of war, the inhabitants of our land, take out from Western Ukraine to build airfields in Eastern Ukraine.b)
> > Former prisoners of war, German citizens of Poland, moved to the camp regime and to work in remote regions: Karagandy oblast, North-Pechora trunk line, splitting the small lots, no more than 250-300 people.
> > Ex-officers. the Polish Army and French (195) left in the camps, all in Gryazovetsky camp of the Vologda region.
> > Chernyshov P.
> > Soprunenko
> >
>

That's the name I associate with the survivors. - Dan Ford USn

to Gryazovets.^[
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre#cite_note-Miednoje_Katyn-19>

Dea Stefan,

Ok, did some digging and learnt something new. Juchnow (name of camp) and Pavelishtchev Bor (location) are the same place. A former TB sanitorium. The survivors were sent here initially before being moved to Gryazovtets. Since they were coming from three seperate places it would be sensible to group them before sending them onwards.

...juchnowski (Juchnow kolo Kalugi, Rosja) nad rzeka Ugra na drodze Malojaroslawiec – Miatliewo – Roslaw, faktycznie w bylym sanatorium gruzliczym Pawliszczew (Pawliszew) Bor .

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obozy_NKWD_dla_je%C5%84c%C3%B3w_polskich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukhnov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazovets

As to the numbers... we'll keep digging. According to Wikipedia... (yes I know it'snot a historical source, but one hopes the information came from somewhere) the 395 were already in Gryazovets in May.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob%C3%B3z_jeniecki_NKWD_w_Griazowcu

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

PS/ There is only one internet link to Pavelishtchev Bor on the internet. I think it has something to do with te transliteration/spellingand its and it comes from the full text of "The Katyn Forest Massacre : hearings before the Select Committee to Conduct an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances of the Katyn Forest Massacre, Eighty-second Congress, first[-second] session, on investigation of the murder of thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk, Russia .."

Link here:  http://www.archive.org/stream/katynforestmassa06unit/katynforestmassa06unit_djvu.txt

---------------------------------------------------------

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Mark and Chris,
>
> Thanks, Mark, as always, for your fascinating contributions, grim as they are in this case.
>
> I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
> survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.
>
> He quotes the "448 survivors" figure on pages 78, 104, 116, 117, 120 (twice), 124, 143 and 146, so it clearly wasn't a typo,
> and obviously isn't an estimate. Zadowny states that this is the number of survivors of the three main camps after the executions. This is, he says, the number of men who arrived in Pavelishtchev Bor during/immediately after the others were shot
> in the spring of 1940. His source is a document prepared for the Polish Government in Exile by a Dr. Wiktor Sukiennicki entitled
> "Facts and Documents concerning Polish Prisioners of War captured by the USSR during the 1939 Campaign" It was published
> in London in 1946, and at the time classified as Top Secret. It is prob. available at the Sikorski Institute.(?)
>
> He quotes "about 400" - i.e. 395 - as the number who arrived in Grazovec approx. 13 months later. The source he quotes for this number is documents in Exhibits 32 and 33 submitted in 1952 by the Polish Government in Exile to a "Congressional Select Comittee
> to Conduct an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances of the Katyn Forrest Massacre". i.e.the Madden Committee  .. Part 4, pages 526-548 apparently contains a "complete list of officers, cadets, non-commissioned officers, privates and civilians who arrived at Grazovec". Chris, I think this is what you may be looking for. Perhaps someone in the group might be able to find the time to dig this document up  ... ? This looks like a good place to start;
>
>  http://ca-mg4.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=4en8ke4nqgtk8
>                                                                     
>
> Regrading their 13 month imprisonment before the transfer to Grazovec, Zadowny states on page 118 of "Death in the Forrest" that "During this time, some individual Poles were placed under guard and removed from the camp. It has been established that those removed were taken to various prisons to be interrogated furtherby NKVD specialists for specific information regarding their civilian occupations. On June 13, 1941, the remaining prisoners wereremoved to Camp Grazovec. After some arrests there were now about four hundred". Uncharacteristically, he doesn't give a source, or specify how "it has been established", but it seems to make sense.
>
>
> He reiterates his contentions plainly on page 124: "from the total number, only 448 survived in Camp Pavelishtchev Bor. From theseabout 400 arrived in Grazovec."
>
>
> Incidently, heinterviewed both Stanislaw Swianewicz and Josef Czapski extensively for his book and singled them both out in the
>
> books' "Acknowledgements". Swianewicz in particular reviewed Zadownys' initial manuscipt, and would surely have felt obligated to
>
> correct any obvious factual errors he found.
>
> Of course, Mark, if Zadowny is correct, now there are a few more contradictions with the Soprunenko memo below;
>
> Did the NKVD change the number of initial survivors from 448 to 395 retroactivly, to hide the fact that that a further 53 men
> disappeared and were likely murdered after the initial massacres? Or was Zadowny basing his assumption of 448 initial survivors
> on a faulty document?
>
>
> Why does Zadowny list the camp where the survivors were first taken in May/June of 1940 as Pavelishtchev Bor, while in Soprunenkos'memo it's Yukhnovsky? 
>
> As usual, more questions than answers  ...   Any more thoughts??
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stefan Jackowski
> Toronto
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mark and Oyun
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:29:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
>
>
>  
> Dear Stefan,
>  
> 448 survivors? Interesting. The usual figure is 395 (also on Wikipedia  "395 prisoners were spared from the slaughter,[1] among them StanisÅ‚aw Swianiewicz and Józef Czapski.[23] They were taken to the Yukhnov camp and then to Gryazovets.[19]")   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre)
>  
> The number comes up again in another memo from Soprunenko:
>  
> No 92 May 25th 1940
>  
> Total sent to Yukhnovsky camp - 395      
>  
> Among them:
> a) to the 5th Dept. [Counter intelligence] Main Directorate for State Security - 47             
> b) on request of the German Embassy - 47         
> c) on request of the Mission of Lithuanian - 19  
> e) Germans - 24
> =============  137   
> e) at the disposal of Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR. Comrade Merkulov - 91              
> f) other - 167     
> ============= 258
>  
> Total 395
>  
> Head Of The NKVD Of The USSR
> in cases of prisoners of war
> Security Captain
> P. Soprunenko
>  
>  http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html#13ch
>  
> Regards, Mark Ostrowski
>  
>  
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Mark and group,
> >
> >
> > To add some info re: the situation of the Katyn survivors;
> >
> >
> > According to Prof. Zawodny, of the 15,000 + Polish Officers held in the spring of 1940 in Koselsk, Starobelsk and Ostashkov, only 448 survived execution by the Soviets.
> >
> > These survivors were shipped in 7 seperate transports to an empty camp at Pavelishtchev Bor, just north of Kosielsk.
> >
> > April 25, 1940 - 63 men from Starobelsk, arriving at Pavelishtchev Bor on May 1, 1940
> > April 26, 1940 - 150 men from Koselsk, arriving on April 26, 1940
> > April 29, 1940 - 60 men from Ostashkov, arriving on May 4
> > May 12, 1940 - 95 from Kozelsk, arriving on May 14
> >
> > May 12, 1940 - 16 from Starobelsk, arriving on May 17
> > May 13, 1940 - 45 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 18
> >
> > May 16. 1940 - 16 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 20
> >
> > After ongoing interogations and NKVD attempts to convert them them to Communism, the remaining men spontaneously started to split into three main groups; those with some
> > pro-Soviet sentiment (about 50 men), about 30 who claimed German - not Polish - ancestry,and the rest who remainded anti-Soviet. 12 of the 30 "Germans" were considered
> >
> > German enough, and given over to the custody of the Soviet allies at the German Embassy.  (Of the remaining 18 "Germans",
> > one committed suicide upon the outbreak of war
> >
> > with the Nazis  .. while the fate
> > of his teutonic companions after June 22, 1941 can be easily imagined.)
> >
> >
> > On Sept. 10, 1940, 7 of the highest ranking pro-Soviet group from the camp were taken to Moscow, where they were wined and dined as potential leadershop material in a new
> >
> > Soviet Poland.  (All 7 later joined Anders Army when that opportunity arose. Zygmunt Berling later defected back to the Soviets, and, as we know, was tried by the Polish Army
> >
> > in absentia, and given a death sentance.)
> >
> >
> > On June 13, 1941, just nine days before Barbarossa, the rest of the men were transported to a camp which Zadowny referrs to as "Grazovec", which very likely is the "Grazoveckom" 
> > listed in Memorandam No. 155, posted here on Sunday.  On Sept. 1, 1941, the NKVD gaurds and administration were withdrawn, and the camp was set up as a Polish Army unit.
> >
> >
> > Hope this is of interest.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Stefan Jackowski
> > Toronto
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:23:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
> >
> >
> >  
> > Dear Mark,
> > Actually there is little evidence to doubt this document. We know that some officers did survive. We should remember that General Anders was also not executed. Nor were the other senior officers who made up the 2nd Polish Corps. A few other Generals survived: Boruta Spiechowicz, Przezdziecki and Januszajtis are three that sring to mind.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczys%C5%82aw_Boruta-Spiechowicz
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Prze%C5%BAdziecki
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Januszajtis-%C5%BBegota
> > The key being that they were in in other prisons at the time of the mass killings. Most were in Moscow in the Lubianka being tortured. Colonel Rakowski (later General Officer Commanding 2nd Armoured Division) and my grandfather's GOC 5 Division Sulik (then a colonel) were also in the Lubianka.
> > Others officers managed to convince their interrogators that they were either cooperative or not a threat. And others were just lucky… they were being held in other places and did not come into the Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov clearnaces.
> > As to the prisoners working… My estimates put the total number of POWs held by the Soviets as around 54,000. The POWs who ended up with Anders were about half of this number and they were retained by their captors to work.  The approximately 16,000 victims of Katyn are also included from this group. Several thousand have also just disappeared from the figures; mostly casualties of death marches, air raids and NKVD brutality and harsh conditions. [My post 52978 for the numbers.(Although we did have a bit of a polemic re POW status which I really don't want to open up again)]
> > ---------------------------
> > â„â€" 130
> > 1940 November 2, Moscow. - Memorandum from LP Beria IV Stalin's plans to set up in the Soviet Union military units of the Polish prisoners of war
> > […]
> > b) General-Borut Spehovich [5] stated that he can take certain steps only at the direction of the "government" Sikorsky, which, in his opinion, represents the interests of the Polish people;
> > c) General Przhezdetsky [6] made ​​a statement similar to the statement Borut-Spehovicha;
> > […]
> > d) several colonels and lieutenant colonels (Burling [7], Bukoemsky [8], Gorchinskiy [9], Tyshinsky [10]) stated that they fully convey himself at the disposal of the Soviet power, and that very willingly take over a) the organization and guide any military connections as well) from the Polish prisoners of war, designed a) to deal with Germany a) in the interest of Poland as a nation-state. The future of Poland is thought to be closely related in one way or another with the Soviet Union.
> > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark wrote:
> > >
> > > I see this report of June 1941 seems to list the POW status at the time.
> > > It suggests 1259 officers are alive at that date and that Polish Army prisoners were left in the camps.
> > > Who were these officers who escaped Katyn?
> > > I did see what Dan said about confusing POWs from 'criminals', but I thought all Polish officers were deemed 'criminals', enemies of the people or whatever.
> > > There is also reference to "former" POWs.
> > > Even though I am nowhere in my research of the deports and the POWs, this is the first I heard of POWs working on an airfield in Ukr.
> > > Is this a real document made at the time to cover up Katyn or a newly composed document?
> > > What I wouldnt give to see my grandfather's file with NKWD!
> > >  
> > >
> > > Mark T.
> > > Canada
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Basia basia@
> > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:27:52 PM
> > > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > This is fascinating Mark, somewhere in those numbers was my father.
> > > Thank you
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Basia Zielinska (Sydney)
> > >
> > > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@: Kresy-Siberia@: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 20:05:57 -0000To: Kresy-Siberia@: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ÃÆ'‚¹ 125 - ÃÆ'‚¹ 157.
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Dan,
> > > To answer your question, about 26,000. probably the men listed below. Taken from the same source you are reading.
> > > No. 155
> > > June 22, 1941 Goda. Moscow. Memorandum V.v. Chernysheva and P.k. Soprunenko the existence of prisoners of war and interned in the NKVD camps
> > > The people's Commissar of Internal Affairs
> > > Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics
> > > Comrade Beria, L.p. [1]
> > > Report: ex-prisoners of war. Polish Army
> > > 27760:
> > > 14135 per. ÃÆ'‚â€" in the construction of airfields and roads in Western Ukraine.
> > > 7754. on the construction of the Northern Pechora Railway,
> > > 4000 people.on the construction of the airfield Ponoy River (imported 1000 persons) of the Murmansk region.
> > > Officers are: 1259
> > > in kozelsk camp ÃÆ'‚â€" 909 people.
> > > the GrÃÆ'Æ'¢zoveckom camp is 350 people.
> > > The remaining numbering 270 people. in the ÃÆ'Æ'›hnovskom camp (Smolensk Oblast).
> > > To former prisoners of war, the inhabitants of our land, take out from Western Ukraine to build airfields in Eastern Ukraine.b)
> > > Former prisoners of war, German citizens of Poland, moved to the camp regime and to work in remote regions: Karagandy oblast, North-Pechora trunk line, splitting the small lots, no more than 250-300 people.
> > > Ex-officers. the Polish Army and French (195) left in the camps, all in Gryazovetsky camp of the Vologda region.
> > > Chernyshov P.
> > > Soprunenko
> > >
> >
>

The 394[!!!] In the Yukhnovsky camp were:

General: 1 [Gen. Wolkowicki  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Wo%C5%82kowicki]

Colonels: 8

Lt Colonels: 16

Majors: 8

Captains: 18

Other Officers: 201

Warrant Officers 8

Police Officer (Junior Officers): 9

Police Officers (O/R): 38

Military Police (Junior Officer): 1

Military Police (O/R): 1

Prison Guards: 9

 Settlers: 2

Civil Servants: 8

Army/Border Guards (O/R): 15

Junaki: 12

Forest Workers:1

Refugees: 38

[There is a more complete breakdown at Memo No.103]

Upon arrival at the camp on May 14 and 13 the prisoners had announced a "moment of silence" that unnerved camp authorities. The camp commander of the POWs, Major J. Mara-Mey explained that this was "in tribute to the memory of fallen comrades". As it turned out later, these were the days of the anniversary of the death of J. Pilsudski.

On the 14^th June 384 were sent to Gryazovets leaving 10 sick in the camp, who joined them later.

The Camp Commandant's Memo 10^th June 1940 [No.96] to Merkalov clearly states as of 1^st June there were 394 POWs in the camp.  This still leaves one unaccounted for!

http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html

Regards, Mark

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" wrote:
>
>
> Dea Stefan,
>
> Ok, did some digging and learnt something new. Juchnow (name of camp)
> and Pavelishtchev Bor (location) are the same place. A former TB
> sanitorium. The survivors were sent here initially before being moved to
> Gryazovtets. Since they were coming from three seperate places it would
> be sensible to group them before sending them onwards.
>
> ...juchnowski (Juchnow kolo Kalugi, Rosja) nad rzeka Ugra na drodze
> Malojaroslawiec – Miatliewo – Roslaw, faktycznie w bylym
> sanatorium gruzliczym Pawliszczew (Pawliszew) Bor .
>
> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obozy_NKWD_dla_je%C5%84c%C3%B3w_polskich
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukhnov
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazovets
>
>
> As to the numbers... we'll keep digging. According to Wikipedia... (yes
> I know it'snot a historical source, but one hopes the information came
> from somewhere) the 395 were already in Gryazovets in May.
>
> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob%C3%B3z_jeniecki_NKWD_w_Griazowcu
>
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>
> PS/ There is only one internet link to Pavelishtchev Bor on the
> internet. I think it has something to do with te
> transliteration/spellingand its and it comes from the full text of "The
> Katyn Forest Massacre : hearings before the Select Committee to Conduct
> an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances of the Katyn
> Forest Massacre, Eighty-second Congress, first[-second] session, on
> investigation of the murder of thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn
> Forest near Smolensk, Russia ..
> "
>
> Link here:
> http://www.archive.org/stream/katynforestmassa06unit/katynforestmassa06u\
> nit_djvu.txt
>
unit_djvu.txt>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Mark and Chris,
> >
> > Thanks, Mark, as always, for your fascinating contributions, grim as
> they are in this case.
> >
> > I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can
> see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
> > survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.
> >
> > He quotes the "448 survivors" figure on pages 78, 104, 116, 117, 120
> (twice), 124, 143 and 146, so it clearly wasn't a typo,
> > and obviously isn't an estimate. Zadowny states that this is the
> number of survivors of the three main camps after the executions. This
> is, he says, the number of men who arrived in Pavelishtchev Bor
> during/immediately after the others were shot
> > in the spring of 1940. His source is a document prepared for the
> Polish Government in Exile by a Dr. Wiktor Sukiennicki entitled
> > "Facts and Documents concerning Polish Prisioners of War captured by
> the USSR during the 1939 Campaign" It was published
> > in London in 1946, and at the time classified as Top Secret. It is
> prob. available at the Sikorski Institute.(?)
> >
> > He quotes "about 400" - i.e. 395 - as the number who arrived in
> Grazovec approx. 13 months later. The source he quotes for this number
> is documents in Exhibits 32 and 33 submitted in 1952 by the Polish
> Government in Exile to a "Congressional Select Comittee
> > to Conduct an Investigation of the Facts, Evidence and Circumstances
> of the Katyn Forrest Massacre". i.e.the Madden Committee .. Part 4,
> pages 526-548 apparently contains a "complete list of officers, cadets,
> non-commissioned officers, privates and civilians who arrived at
> Grazovec". Chris, I think this is what you may be looking for. Perhaps
> someone in the group might be able to find the time to dig this document
> up ... ? This looks like a good place to start;
> >
> > Â http://ca-mg4.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=4en8ke4nqgtk8
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> >
> > Regrading their 13 month imprisonment before the transfer to Grazovec,
> Zadowny states on page 118 of "Death in the Forrest" that "During this
> time, some individual Poles were placed under guard and removed from the
> camp. It has been established that those removed were taken to various
> prisons to be interrogated furtherby NKVD specialists for specific
> information regarding their civilian occupations. On June 13, 1941, the
> remaining prisoners wereremoved to Camp Grazovec. After some arrests
> there were now about four hundred". Uncharacteristically, he doesn't
> give a source, or specify how "it has been established", but it seems to
> make sense.
> >
> >
> > He reiterates his contentions plainly on page 124: "from the total
> number, only 448 survived in Camp Pavelishtchev Bor. From theseabout 400
> arrived in Grazovec."
> >
> >
> > Incidently, heinterviewed both Stanislaw Swianewicz and Josef Czapski
> extensively for his book and singled them both out in the
> >
> > books' "Acknowledgements". Swianewicz in particular reviewed Zadownys'
> initial manuscipt, and would surely have felt obligated to
> >
> > correct any obvious factual errors he found.
> >
> > Of course, Mark, if Zadowny is correct, now there are a few more
> contradictions with the Soprunenko memo below;
> >
> > Did the NKVD change the number of initial survivors from 448 to 395
> retroactivly, to hide the fact that that a further 53 men
> > disappeared and were likely murdered after the initial massacres? Or
> was Zadowny basing his assumption of 448 initial survivors
> > on a faulty document?
> >
> >
> > Why does Zadowny list the camp where the survivors were first taken in
> May/June of 1940 as Pavelishtchev Bor, while in Soprunenkos'memo it's
> Yukhnovsky?Â
> >
> > As usual, more questions than answers ...  Any more
> thoughts??
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Stefan Jackowski
> > Toronto
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mark and Oyun
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:29:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October
> 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Dear Stefan,
> > Â
> > 448 survivors? Interesting. The usual figure is 395 (also on
> Wikipedia "395 prisoners were spared from the slaughter,[1] among
> them StanisÅ‚aw Swianiewicz and Józef Czapski.[23] They
> were taken to the Yukhnov camp and then to Gryazovets.[19]")Â Â
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre)
> > Â
> > The number comes up again in another memo from Soprunenko:
> > Â
> > No 92 May 25th 1940
> > Â
> > Total sent to Yukhnovsky camp - 395Â Â Â Â Â Â
> > Â
> > Among them:
> > a) to the 5th Dept. [Counter intelligence] Main Directorate for State
> Security - 47Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â
> > b) on request of the German Embassy - 47Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â
> > c) on request of the Mission of Lithuanian - 19Â Â
> > e) Germans - 24
> > =============Â 137Â Â Â
> > e) at the disposal of Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of
> the USSR. Comrade Merkulov - 91Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â
> > f) other - 167Â Â Â Â Â
> > ============= 258
> > Â
> > Total 395
> > Â
> > Head Of The NKVD Of The USSR
> > in cases of prisoners of war
> > Security Captain
> > P. Soprunenko
> > Â
> > Â http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html#13ch
> > Â
> > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
> > Â
> > Â
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Mark and group,
> > >
> > >
> > > To add some info re: the situation of the Katyn survivors;
> > >
> > >
> > > According to Prof. Zawodny, of the 15,000 + Polish Officers held in
> the spring of 1940 in Koselsk, Starobelsk and Ostashkov, only 448
> survived execution by the Soviets.
> > >
> > > These survivors were shipped in 7 seperate transports to an empty
> camp at Pavelishtchev Bor, just north of Kosielsk.
> > >
> > > April 25, 1940 - 63 men from Starobelsk, arriving at Pavelishtchev
> Bor on May 1, 1940
> > > April 26, 1940 - 150 men from Koselsk, arriving on April 26, 1940
> > > April 29, 1940 - 60 men from Ostashkov, arriving on May 4
> > > May 12, 1940 - 95 from Kozelsk, arriving on May 14
> > >
> > > May 12, 1940 - 16 from Starobelsk, arriving on May 17
> > > May 13, 1940 - 45 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 18
> > >
> > > May 16. 1940 - 16 from Ostashkov, arriving on May 20
> > >
> > > After ongoing interogations and NKVD attempts to convert them them
> to Communism, the remaining men spontaneously started to split into
> three main groups; those with some
> > > pro-Soviet sentiment (about 50 men), about 30 who claimed German -
> not Polish - ancestry,and the rest who remainded anti-Soviet. 12 of the
> 30 "Germans" were considered
> > >
> > > German enough, and given over to the custody of the Soviet allies at
> the German Embassy. (Of the remaining 18 "Germans",
> > > one committed suicide upon the outbreak of war
> > >
> > > with the Nazis .. while the fate
> > > of his teutonic companions after June 22, 1941 can be easily
> imagined.)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sept. 10, 1940, 7 of the highest ranking pro-Soviet group from
> the camp were taken to Moscow, where they were wined and dined as
> potential leadershop material in a new
> > >
> > > Soviet Poland. (All 7 later joined Anders Army when that
> opportunity arose. Zygmunt Berling later defected back to the Soviets,
> and, as we know, was tried by the Polish Army
> > >
> > > in absentia, and given a death sentance.)
> > >
> > >
> > > On June 13, 1941, just nine days before Barbarossa, the rest of the
> men were transported to a camp which Zadowny referrs to as "Grazovec",
> which very likely is the "Grazoveckom"ÂÂ
> > > listed in Memorandam No. 155, posted here on Sunday. On
> Sept. 1, 1941, the NKVD gaurds and administration were withdrawn, and
> the camp was set up as a Polish Army unit.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hope this is of interest.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Stefan Jackowski
> > > Toronto
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@
> > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:23:17 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war.
> October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 -
> ¹ 157.
> > >
> > >
> > > ÂÂ
> > > Dear Mark,
> > > Actually there is little evidence to doubt this document. We know
> that some officers did survive. We should remember that General Anders
> was also not executed. Nor were the other senior officers who made up
> the 2nd Polish Corps. A few other Generals survived: Boruta Spiechowicz,
> Przezdziecki and Januszajtis are three that sring to mind.
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczys%C5%82aw_Boruta-Spiechowicz
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wac%C5%82aw_Prze%C5%BAdziecki
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Januszajtis-%C5%BBegota
> > > The key being that they were in in other prisons at the time of the
> mass killings. Most were in Moscow in the Lubianka being tortured.
> Colonel Rakowski (later General Officer Commanding 2nd Armoured
> Division) and my grandfather's GOC 5 Division Sulik (then a colonel)
> were also in the Lubianka.
> > > Others officers managed to convince their interrogators that they
> were either cooperative or not a threat. And others were just
> lucky… they were being held in other places and did not come
> into the Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov clearnaces.
> > > As to the prisoners working… My estimates put the total
> number of POWs held by the Soviets as around 54,000. The POWs who ended
> up with Anders were about half of this number and they were retained by
> their captors to work.  The approximately 16,000 victims of Katyn
> are also included from this group. Several thousand have also just
> disappeared from the figures; mostly casualties of death marches, air
> raids and NKVD brutality and harsh conditions. [My post 52978 for
> the numbers.(Although we did have a bit of a polemic re POW
> status which I really don't want to open up again)]
> > > ---------------------------
> > > â„â€" 130
> > > 1940 November 2, Moscow. - Memorandum from LP Beria IV Stalin's
> plans to set up in the Soviet Union military units of the Polish
> prisoners of war
> > > […]
> > > b) General-Borut Spehovich [5] stated that he can take certain steps
> only at the direction of the "government" Sikorsky, which, in his
> opinion, represents the interests of the Polish people;
> > > c) General Przhezdetsky [6] made
> ​​a statement similar to
> the statement Borut-Spehovicha;
> > > […]
> > > d) several colonels and lieutenant colonels (Burling [7], Bukoemsky
> [8], Gorchinskiy [9], Tyshinsky [10]) stated that they fully convey
> himself at the disposal of the Soviet power, and that very willingly
> take over a) the organization and guide any military connections as
> well) from the Polish prisoners of war, designed a) to deal with Germany
> a) in the interest of Poland as a nation-state. The future of Poland is
> thought to be closely related in one way or another with the Soviet
> Union.
> > > Regards, Mark Ostrowski
> > > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Mark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I see this report of June 1941 seems to list the POW status at the
> time.
> > > > It suggests 1259 officers are alive at that date and that Polish
> Army prisoners were left in the camps.
> > > > Who were these officers who escaped Katyn?
> > > > I did see what Dan said about confusing POWs from 'criminals', but
> I thought all Polish officers were deemed 'criminals', enemies of the
> people or whatever.
> > > > There is also reference to "former" POWs.
> > > > Even though I am nowhere in my research of the deports and the
> POWs, this is the first I heard of POWs working on an airfield in Ukr.
> > > > Is this a real document made at the time to cover up Katyn or a
> newly composed document?
> > > > What I wouldnt give to see my grandfather's file with NKWD!
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > >
> > > > Mark T.
> > > > Canada
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Basia basia@
> > > > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:27:52 PM
> > > > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October
> 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > >
> > > > This is fascinating Mark, somewhere in those numbers was my
> father.
> > > > Thank you
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Basia Zielinska (Sydney)
> > > >
> > > > From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@: Kresy-Siberia@: Sun, 30 Dec 2012
> 20:05:57 -0000To: Kresy-Siberia@: {Disarmed} Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org]
> Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents
> ÃÆ'‚¹ 125 - ÃÆ'‚¹ 157.
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Dan,
> > > > To answer your question, about 26,000. probably the men listed
> below. Taken from the same source you are reading.
> > > > No. 155
> > > > June 22, 1941 Goda. Moscow. Memorandum V.v. Chernysheva and P.k.
> Soprunenko the existence of prisoners of war and interned in the NKVD
> camps
> > > > The people's Commissar of Internal Affairs
> > > > Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics
> > > > Comrade Beria, L.p. [1]
> > > > Report: ex-prisoners of war. Polish Army
> > > > 27760:
> > > > 14135 per. ÃÆ'‚â€" in the construction of
> airfields and roads in Western Ukraine.
> > > > 7754. on the construction of the Northern Pechora Railway,
> > > > 4000 people.on the construction of the airfield Ponoy River
> (imported 1000 persons) of the Murmansk region.
> > > > Officers are: 1259
> > > > in kozelsk camp ÃÆ'‚â€" 909 people.
> > > > the GrÃÆ'Æ'¢zoveckom camp is 350 people.
> > > > The remaining numbering 270 people. in the
> ÃÆ'Æ'›hnovskom camp (Smolensk Oblast).
> > > > To former prisoners of war, the inhabitants of our land, take out
> from Western Ukraine to build airfields in Eastern Ukraine.b)
> > > > Former prisoners of war, German citizens of Poland, moved to the
> camp regime and to work in remote regions: Karagandy oblast,
> North-Pechora trunk line, splitting the small lots, no more than 250-300
> people.
> > > > Ex-officers. the Polish Army and French (195) left in the camps,
> all in Gryazovetsky camp of the Vologda region.
> > > > Chernyshov P.
> > > > Soprunenko
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Do understand that Mr Zadowny's book was very early, perhaps the first
to delve into the massacres at any length. History works by accretion
and by questioning what was assumed. You really can't compare "Death in
the Forest" with "Katyn--Crime Without Punishment" which represents huge
advances in what is known.

There is also a huge difference in what historians know and what society
at large know. Perhaps because I came to history late (I started out by
making stuff up--I was a novelist) this always surprises me. "Nazi death
camps" and indeed even the word "Nazi" as a substitute for "German" is a
good example. Then there's "Wehrmacht" which almost everyone uses to
mean "Germany army," when the army was the Heer, one of three military
forces, the others being the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. Those are
just words, but the same is true of events. Well -- take the Polish
cavalry charging German tanks! Again, every historian (in the field)
knows it's not true, but you will never get it out of the media and the
common knowledge.

Historians joke (rather sourly) that American college students know two
things about World War Two: that the Americans used an atomic bomb on
Hiroshima, and that the Japanese in retaliation bombed Pearl Harbor.
It's only a slight exaggeration. And those college students go on to be
the newspaper and television writers and editors of the future. -- Dan
Ford US


On 1/3/2013 2:27 AM, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can
> see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
> survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.

Dear Stefan,

So mystery solved. 448 it is but... there were two separate periods of transportation.

The 395 were sent at the time of/after the murders. They were directly spared from execution as they were happening. The first transport was 29 March 1940, a few days after Beria recommended shooting the Poles, but just before the killings actually started.

From each camp – transported:

Kozielsk – 24

Starobielsk – 22

Ostaszkov – 7

-----------------

Total: 53

Most of these were transported to Yukhnovsky camp.

The full list of names is in a memo [No.17] from Sudoplatov, a Major in Section Five [Counterintelligence] of State Security.

http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> Yes, as you mention, the Zadowny book was one of earliest books on Katyn. It was published in 1962, and so had the
> advantage of many eyewitness POW accounts (the publisher claims 150) that were relatively fresh memories. Of course,
> it had the huge disadvantage of not have access to most of the Soviet records, certainly not those that were released
> in 1991, and subsequently.   .. History is indeed a work in progress!
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan J
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dan Ford
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 5:49:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish prisoners of war. October 1940 - June 1941. Documents ¹ 125 - ¹ 157.
>
>
>  
> Do understand that Mr Zadowny's book was very early, perhaps the first
> to delve into the massacres at any length. History works by accretion
> and by questioning what was assumed. You really can't compare "Death in
> the Forest" with "Katyn--Crime Without Punishment" which represents huge
> advances in what is known.
>
> There is also a huge difference in what historians know and what society
> at large know. Perhaps because I came to history late (I started out by
> making stuff up--I was a novelist) this always surprises me. "Nazi death
> camps" and indeed even the word "Nazi" as a substitute for "German" is a
> good example. Then there's "Wehrmacht" which almost everyone uses to
> mean "Germany army," when the army was the Heer, one of three military
> forces, the others being the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. Those are
> just words, but the same is true of events. Well -- take the Polish
> cavalry charging German tanks! Again, every historian (in the field)
> knows it's not true, but you will never get it out of the media and the
> common knowledge.
>
> Historians joke (rather sourly) that American college students know two
> things about World War Two: that the Americans used an atomic bomb on
> Hiroshima, and that the Japanese in retaliation bombed Pearl Harbor.
> It's only a slight exaggeration. And those college students go on to be
> the newspaper and television writers and editors of the future. -- Dan
> Ford US
>
> On 1/3/2013 2:27 AM, Stefan Jackowski wrote:
> > I had a closer look at Zadownys' book, "Death in the Forrest", and can
> > see that his discrepency in the numbers of Katyn
> > survivors in 1940 vs. 1941 is clearly acknowledged.
>

Last one on the subject of POWs from this archive. A final account.

No. 175  Soprunenko's Top Secret memo of 3rd December 1941. A final accounting of Polish POWs held in NKVD camps from 1939 to 1941.

1. TOTAL prisoners of war captured by the Red Army and civilian internees transferred from Baltic: 130242

2 Released from camps and sent to the western regions of the USSR and BSSR in 1939: 42400

3. Those who indicated their agreement to move to the territory occupied by the Germans in October and November, 1939:  42492

4. Surrendered to the Germans in 1940-1941 disabled  residents of the territory of the former Poland, Germans, persons with German nationality, as well as on requests of the German Embassy in 1940-1941: 562

5. Sent to NKVD in April-May 1940, through the No.1 Special Unit [Katyn]:  15131

6. Sent to points forming the Polish Army to IX-X, 1941: 25115

7. Released from the Polish Army and those refusing to join: 289

8. Held in Aktiubinsk, refused entry to Polish Army with German nationality: 263

9. Held in Aktiubinsk  not conscripted to Polish Army for special reasons: 2

10. Died in camps (whole period): 389

11. Escaped from camps (whole period): [1082]

12. Losses during the evacuation of the Lwow camp: [1834]

13. Gone from camps for various reasons (whole period) (released or freed on the orders of the NKVD of the USSR from the camp and arrested.): [683]

Head of the USSR NKVD Prisoners of War and Internees Affairs
Captain of State Security, Soprunenko

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_Soprunienko

Page 1 (Items 1-10) of the original hand written document is here: http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/img/large/175.gif 

Figures for 11, 12 and 13 not in handwritten original.  Added later to typed version.

http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/1940_2000/19402000.html#175doc

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

Thanks, Mark! Do you think we can depend on that? -- Dan Ford US

On 1/3/2013 12:46 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
>
>
> Last one on the subject of POWs from this archive. A final account.
>
> No. 175Soprunenko's Top Secret memo of 3rd December _1941_. A final
> accounting of Polish POWs held in NKVD camps from 1939 to 1941.
>
>