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  • Members: 1185
  • Category: Poland
  • Founded: Sep 18, 2001
  • Language: English
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#53174 From: "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:21 am
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] off topic, the positive is back
lenardaszymczak
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Hey Group, we are back on track with positive, after reading all your research and good comments, you make me smile, we as KS GROUP did not lower our standard, nor our values. Well done.  We all went through the same Hell on Earth, many worse than others and we understand each other.  This is why KS EXISTS, using Stefan’s’ words. 

 

My compassion goes out to Stefan, he has a difficult personal journey to make, my prayers and I am sure those of KS Group are with you, Stefan and all your family,   on every step of your journey.  Thank you for bringing us all together.

 

Warmest regards,

Lenarda, Australia

 

 


#53175 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:37 am
Subject: Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
mark_oyun
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Dear Rich,

Excuse my stupid question , but do you mean the 3rd Armoured Battalion... or do you in fact mean Brigade?
http://derela.republika.pl/brigades.htm#mot_bde

The 10th Cavalry Brigade was armoured, [Col. Maczek]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Motorized_Cavalry_Brigade_(Poland)

...and there was the Warsaw Armoured Motorized Brigade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Armoured_Motorized_Brigade
[Col. Rowecki] which was only part ready in 1939.

Were there three brigades?

The 3rd Battalion is here (in Polish)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny

Regards, Mark

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> Apologies if I have asked this question before, but does anyone have any information on the Polish 3rd Armoured Brigade that would have taken part in the 1939 campaign? Many thanks.
>
> Rich Kozlowski, Ohio, USA
>


#53176 From: "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:40 am
Subject: 3rd Armoured Brigade/Division
lenardaszymczak
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Rich, Is this the Armoured Division you are looking for?

 

From Wiki http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FList_of_Polish_divisions_in_World_War_II&ei=YnKoUJ_mH7GCmQXfvoDIBA&usg=AFQjCNGBgQmuWRGxVyOOiCAWyavp8vHMmg&cad=rja

 

1st Armoured Corps: 3 armoured brigades, 1st Motorized Infantry Brigade - details below. Subordinated to the 2nd Army.

1st Motorized Infantry Brigade (Polish)(East)

  • 2nd Armoured Brigade (2. Brygada Pancerna) - (65 x T-34/85)
  • 3rd Armoured Brigade
  • 4th Armoured Brigade
  • 24th SP-artillery regiment (21 x SU-85)
  • 25th SP-artillery regiment (21 x ISU-122)
  • 27th SP-artillery regiment (21 x SU-76M)
  • 2nd mortar regiment
  • 26th AA-artillery regiment
  • Rocket artillery battalion

From Wiki – Armoured Trains of Poland in the Second Republic - http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FArmoured_trains_of_Poland&ei=YnKoUJ_mH7GCmQXfvoDIBA&usg=AFQjCNGvgT9wfprGcQ8RvAGD5dzt23apGQ&cad=rja

Regards,

Lenarda, Australia

 


#53177 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:53 am
Subject: Re: List of KNOWN (Polish) SOLDIERS, KILLED IN ACTION ON THE EASTERN FRONT DURING WWII. 1943-1945
mark_oyun
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Dear Anna,

The usual (English language)figure quoted for Poles evacuated from France is in
the 20,000 region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Army_in_France_(1939-1940)
I note from Dan's post that Kochanski uses similar figures.
Polish sources actually give higher figures:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojsko_Polskie_we_Francji_(1939%E2%80%931940)

I think the lower figure does not count the escape from France via the Med to
the Middle East. There were a lot of Poles who ended up in French Syria, who
then ended up in Palestine after the French collapse.
I think the higher number is all Poles from all French sources, including thoses
who got out by themselves.

Regards, Mark


--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@...> wrote:
>
> Mark, thank you - that's great. Particularly as I'm writing the Overview for
Retreat to Fight From the West. However, many of the figures I have come across
quote that only about 24,500 were evacuated from France to U.K. and I wonder
what the difference in approx. 10,000 could be?
>
> Thanks again, really interesting.
>
> Anna Pacewicz
> Sydney Australia
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear Group, FYI for those who like this sort of thing:
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH ARMED FORCES UNDER BRITISH COMMAND (British War Office Figures)
> >
> > 35,000   were evacuated from France in June 1940
> >
> > 1,780               were recruited in Britain
> >
> > 14,210   escaped from occupied Europe
> >
> > 2,290               were recruited from Canada/Argentina/Brazil
> >
> > 83,000   were evacuated from the USSR
> >
> > 89,300   joined after deserting German Forces
> >
> > 7,000               joined from liberated France
> >
> > 21,750   were liberated Polish Prisoners of War [POW]
> >
> > 254,830
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > -26,830   Killed in Action/Missing/Died of Wounds
> >
> > =======
> >
> > 228,000   July 1945 (technical close of recruitment)
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH ARMED FORCES UNDER SOVIET COMMAND (Frontline+support)
> >
> > 38,488 OFFICERS
> >
> > 14,166 WARRANT OFFICERS
> >
> > 87,179 NCOs
> >
> > 252,238 OTHER RANKS
> >
> > 336AT OFFICERS SCHOOL
> >
> > 3,695 CIVILIANs
> >
> > ==============
> >
> > 396,102
> >
> >
> >
> > There were possibly another 100,000 in the rear and under training.
> >
> > ........................................................................\
> > ..............................................
> >
> >
> >
> > CASUALTIES:
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH ARMY FORCES IN THE WEST
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH ARMY
> >
> > UNDER FRENCH COMMAND:
> >
> > NARVIK   97 KILLED   189 WOUNDED   28 MISSING
> >
> > FRANCE   1,330 KILLED   4,670 WOUNDED   Not Known MISSING
> >
> >
> >
> > UNDER BRITISH COMMAND:
> >
> > POLISH ARMY LIBYA   156 KILLED   467 WOUNDED     15 MISSING
> >
> > 2nd CORPS   2,301 KILLED   8,543 WOUNDED   535 MISSING
> >
> > 1st ARMOURED DIV.  1,290 KILLED   3,823 WOUNDED   22 MISSING
> >
> > 1st PARACHUTE BRIG.  211 KILLED   346 WOUNDED   173 MISSING
> >
> > COMMANDOS   6 KILLED   27 WOUNDED   0 MISSING
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH AIR FORCE   1,803 KILLED   1,348 WOUNDED   445 MISSING
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH NAVY   404 KILLED   191 WOUNDED            0 MISSING
> >
> >
> >
> > TOTAL  PAF:   6,171 KILLED    14,745 WOUNDED    1,190  MISSING
> >
> >
> >
> > TOTAL CASUALTIES UNDER BRITISH COMMAND: 22,106
> >
> >
> >
> > POLISH ARMY FORCES UNDER SOVIET COMMAND  (Communist Polish Sources)
> >
> >
> >
> > BATTLE OF LENINO:    510 KILLED    1,776 WOUNDED    765 MISSING
> >
> > FORCING THE RIVER WISLA:    1,092 KILLED      2,174 WOUNDED    1,626
> > MISSING
> >
> > FIGHTING IN POMERANIA:    4,011 KILLED   8,353 WOUNDED   2,484 MISSING
> >
> >   (1st Feb-7th Mar, 1945)
> >
> > FIGHTING FOR KOLOBRZEG:   1,087 KILLED    3,138 WOUNDED    179MISSING
> >
> >   (8th –18th Mar, 1945)
> >
> > ASSAULT ON BERLIN:   7,228 KILLED     17,567 WOUNDED    3,765 MISSING
> >
> >   (16th Apr-8th May, 1945)
> >
> >
> >
> > Total PAF:  17,478 KILLED     39,286 WOUNDED   9,770 MISSING
> >
> >
> >
> > TOTAL CASUALTIES UNDER SOVIET COMMAND: 66,534
> >
> >
> >
> > ........................................................................\
> > ..............................................
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Elzunia, is this list useful to KS or other members. Do we have
> > this
> > > list on our records?,
> > >
> > >
> > > KFALLEN
> > >
> > <http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=r\
> > ja&v
> > >
> > ed=0CEsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffallensoldiers3.tripod.com%2F&ei=-ammUPfWL\
> > 6uRi
> > > gemvYGIAg&usg=AFQjCNE4oE3LyfOwOPAQEwRTy9FxwLPW_w> POLISH SOLDIERS 3
> > >
> > >
> > > fallensoldiers3.tripod.com/
> > >
> > > Polish Red Army Soldiers (and their little sister) ... A LIST OF KNOWN
> > > SOLDIERS, KILLED IN ACTION ON THE EASTERN FRONT DURING WORLD WAR TWO,
> > >
> > > ILLED IN ACTION ON THE EASTERN FRONT DURING WORLD WAR TWO, WHILE
> > FIGHTING IN
> > > POLISH UNITS OF THE RED ARMY,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t
> > >
> > <http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=r\
> > ja&v
> > >
> > ed=0CEsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffallensoldiers3.tripod.com%2F&ei=-ammUPfWL\
> > 6uRi
> > > gemvYGIAg&usg=AFQjCNE4oE3LyfOwOPAQEwRTy9FxwLPW_w>
> > >
> > &rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CEsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2F\
> > fall
> > >
> > ensoldiers3.tripod.com%2F&ei=-ammUPfWL6uRigemvYGIAg&usg=AFQjCNE4oE3LyfOw\
> > OPAQ
> > > EwRTy9FxwLPW_w
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Warm regards,
> > >
> > > Lenarda, Australia
> > >
> >
>

#53178 From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:03 am
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish soldiers in Red Army (do not debate)
zwierzinski1957
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Hi, Anna!

That's my opinion on your question.

From the point of view of Anders - Berling was a traitor.
But from the point of view of Stalin and environment - just Anders was a traitor, as able to lead his army to fight in Europe, but not on eastern front.
After all, for fighting on Eastern Front USSR was created this army. But smart Anders using various tricks and British pressure, led 117,000 people from the Soviet Union, remained of Polish military elite, certainly made feat.

But I would not be so uniquely called Beurling traitor. After all, if it were not for courage and heroism of his army, marked by Stalin and Churchill, it remains to be revived Poland after the war (I think that yes) - but these are the boundaries - big question.
It is no secret that many non-Polish lands (one-third of East Prussia, Gdansk metropolitan area, etc.) were attached to Poland.
I know that, for example, city Bialystok with suburbs Stalin's original plan was to be Belarusian. But then Burling and his men managed to "win" him back.

I know from Russian sources, that those members of army Anders, who after 1946 returned to Kresy, most of them were persecuted and sent to camps for 8-10 years. For this reason, I think, my grandfather did not come back.

On the other hand, I have my own history. The brother of my grandfather Alphons (b. 1915), fought from 1 to 18 September 1939 with Germans, became a prisoner of war, was sent to Krivoy Rog to steel mill, and then it was transferred to Kotlas - SevZelDorLag. So on the way he ran away from NKVD! Hiding in forests Naliboki Pusha, fought in AK. So when the Soviet Army reached Iwieniec, Alphons came in it (or in army Berling) and reached Berlin. And thus saved his life! After war, he was not arrested.

So I would not call Berling traitor. He also saved many Polish lives.

Stan from M.


From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish soldiers in Red Army (do not debate)

 
Dear group, I am just reading Anders memoirs "Army in Exile". He regarding Berling as a traitor because he deserted the Polish Army in the USSR. I quote "I had received a report on the desertion of Leiutenant-Colonel Zygmunt Berling and several officers who had belonged to the gruop trained in Communist spirit at the so-called "Villa of Happiness" near Moscow. They took with them a car and all the documents at our base at Krasnovodsk"... the point here is that Berling had a choice. He chose the Red Army (with a General's commission) when he could have chosen the Polish Army.

But the vast majority of soldiers had no choice. After 1942 and the exodus of the Polish Army in the USSR to Persia, the Polish men who remained in exile in the USSR or the men in the Borderlands had no choice. Anders goes onto quote a letter from General Sosnkowski in 1944 prior to the Warsaw Uprising, to the President, Mr Raczkiewicz

"I can but mention the convocation of the Committee of National Liberation and the official agreement signed by that Committee at the Kremlin; the arrest of commanders and staff of the Vilno and Novogrodek areas of the Home Army; the disarmament of the 27th Infantry Division, and the deportations from the eastern provinces which have begun and are confirmed by numerous letters received in Tehran and written by Poles deported to Middle Siberia, and the Semipalatinsk District..."

There is no doubt that as soon as the Soviets re occupied the Borderlands from the Germans that forced conscription, repressions and deportations resumed in earnest.

Anna Pacewicz
Sydney Australia




#53179 From: Helen Bitner <helen.bitner@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:57 pm
Subject: Introducing new member John Engelsted from Horsens , Denmark
helenbitner
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Please welcome John to the group. He has many years experience in research and
has a special interest in  and  much information about Hurricane and Spitfire
pilots but says he is always seeking more.
  Kind regards
Helen Bitner
Colchester
UK

#53180 From: "John Engelsted" <jej@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:09 pm
Subject: Re: Introducing new member John Engelsted from Horsens , Denmark
johnengelsted
Send Email Send Email
 
Thank you, Helen.

I want to add that I am always looking for pilots logbooks for my research. I
know that many have been cheated when loaning logbooks to researchers and I
understand that some are afraid of "us".

But I am not after originals of logbooks. Copies, scans or transcripts will do.

John Engelsted
Denmark
--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Helen Bitner <helen.bitner@...> wrote:
>
> Please welcome John to the group. He has many years experience in research and
has a special interest in  and  much information about Hurricane and Spitfire
pilots but says he is always seeking more.
>  Kind regards
> Helen Bitner
> Colchester
> UK
>

#53181 From: Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
r52302
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Mark (and Lenarda), thanks so much for your information.  Truth is, I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade...I am trying to decipher the back of a photo given to my dad by a friend.  Until recently I had no idea that my dad participated in the '39 campaign as a Polish soldier; I thought he was captured and sent to Siberia as a civilian.  

I am attaching the back of the photo--you can see the "3 B.P.".  I will look through your information in detail to see if i can piece something together.  Thanks again!  Rich, Ohio, USA





On Nov 18, 2012, at 12:37 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:

 

Dear Rich,

Excuse my stupid question , but do you mean the 3rd Armoured Battalion... or do you in fact mean Brigade?
http://derela.republika.pl/brigades.htm#mot_bde

The 10th Cavalry Brigade was armoured, [Col. Maczek]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Motorized_Cavalry_Brigade_(Poland)

...and there was the Warsaw Armoured Motorized Brigade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Armoured_Motorized_Brigade
[Col. Rowecki] which was only part ready in 1939.

Were there three brigades?

The 3rd Battalion is here (in Polish)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Batalion_Pancerny

Regards, Mark

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> Apologies if I have asked this question before, but does anyone have any information on the Polish 3rd Armoured Brigade that would have taken part in the 1939 campaign? Many thanks.
>
> Rich Kozlowski, Ohio, USA
>




#53182 From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
godanford
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Think of it this way:

The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads
make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
company, so a company is about 150 men.

Four companies in a battalion, along with headquarters staff and maybe a
signals and a weapons platoon. So a battalion might be 600-1,000 men.

Four battalions plus headquarters, artillery, and other support units
in a brigade or regiment (they are about the same thing). So a brigade
might be 4000-5000 men.

Four brigades or regiments to a division, plus "div arty" and other
support units, to a total of 10,000-15,000 men. You might for example
have three infantry brigades/regiments and one armored brigade in a
division. Or an armored brigade might be more or less independent,
operating in support of one or more different infantry divisions at
different times. Thus the British 7th Armoured Brigade "Desert Rats"
went from North Africa to reinforce Burma in 1942.

This varies of course from army to army and from war to war. During WW2,
divisions were organized into corps, and corps were organized into
armies, and armies were organized into army groups, until one was
dealing with millions of men. Today, even the division is going out of
fashion. The US Army is moving toward an organization in which brigades
are the largest operating unit.

- Dan Ford US

On 11/18/2012 9:26 AM, Richard Kozlowski wrote:
> I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade

#53183 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:23 pm
Subject: Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
mark_oyun
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Dear Group,

Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not that
many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early
conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not
trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any
enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in
military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called
"Labour front".  Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to
build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not
actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the
war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.

Poles in the red Army… treason?  A controversial issue. I would argue that a
case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in
the East were traitors.  My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177,
which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any
Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite
obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were
conscripted – again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who
volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they
were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the
fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same
argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of
senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement
Corps. The PRC was an organ of the British Government – unlike the Polish Army
under British Command which remained under the legitimate Polish Government
(albeit in exile). Irony was not the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot,
kettle and black.

This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish
1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw
became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another
controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push
because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had
the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view,
the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.

As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept that
from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't a
point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a
serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so
do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either.
Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be
guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told –
usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within
his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski
said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would
have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of
Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call
Anders a traitor. With the case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best
will in the world, and with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is
not a matter of perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.

Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign armies
during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially if that
country is hostile to the first.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

#53184 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:43 pm
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
mark_oyun
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Dear Rich and Dan,

I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3
B.P. is "batalion".
Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.

By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of
3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a
Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.

Best regards, Mark

#53185 From: Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
r52302
Send Email Send Email
 
Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much.  Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:





On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:

 

Dear Rich and Dan,

I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.

By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.

Best regards, Mark



#53186 From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:18 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
zwierzinski1957
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Dear Mark

You are very good in terms of international law, explained difference between Anders and Berling, and I'm sitting in a warm apartment after 70 years, agree with you.
Berling (in terms of government Sikorski and Anders) was a traitor.

But September 17, 1939, Ambassador of Poland in Moscow was presented a note of the USSR (monstrous indeed, but not the point) that a country such as Poland in terms of the USSR (Stalin) is no more. So from the point of view of Stalin  Sikorski government was illegitimate, and then it had no right to label - a traitor or a hero.

And the Soviet Union consistently adhered to this idea.

Stalin in 1943, has already felt like a winner - a radical turn in the war has already occurred (Kursk Duga). Stalin wanted to create a vassal socialist Poland - he needed a mechanism of local government, a compliant government. Berling was very necessary advice.
But Berling did much to make many Poles from camps, where they were in 1939 - they could disappear there. Studies show that 5 years at hard labor camp few people lived, 2-3 years - much more.

It is known that, when formed Anders Army, NKVD redoubled its efforts on processing of Polish prisoners of war. Certainly much has been recruited or brainwashed. Berling was one of them. Do not forget that not all was well in Poland, 1920-39 years., had a very strong social stratification of people. All this played out that some of officers and soldiers sailed with Anders. But of course, majority of military joining to army Berling was only one way out of hell. The fact is that in 1943-44 again faced new wave of terror, and Poles who were released under an amnesty in August 1941, and not arrived to armies,  were back in Gulag camps.

So I stand by my opinion - I will not name Berling as traitor. The fact that he was a conformist - yes. But the fact that Poland was reborn thanks to him, even as a vassal of socialist Soviet Union, too, no doubt. In the late 40's and early 50's in Poland reigned extraordinary growth, both in spirit and in manufacturing. Rose from the ruins of Warsaw and others cities.
Berling certainly loved his country, and did much for her, at least not less than Anders.
But here's what the price - it is only God knows. We do not know whether his tortured agony.

According to their works ye shall know them. From the point of view of the biblical wisdom, Anders and Berling and not traitors, but worthy children of Poles.

Stan.


From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 6:23 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)

 
Dear Group,

Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called "Labour front". Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.

Poles in the red Army… treason? A controversial issue. I would argue that a case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in the East were traitors. My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177, which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were conscripted – again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement Corps. The PRC was an organ of the British Government – unlike the Polish Army under British Command which remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.

This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish 1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view, the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.

As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either. Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told – usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call Anders a traitor. With the case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.

Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially if that country is hostile to the first.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski




#53187 From: ed Bator <edijadzia@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
edijadzia
Send Email Send Email
 
Dan, you gave the best explanation of the "units" organization.
Many times it dependa on the "mission"  of particular unit, be it a team, squad, platoon, company or higher
units like battalion, regiment/brigade, division, corp and finaly army.
It also depends on combination of branches of the army as infantry, artilery, armor, signal, engeneer/saper,
transportation, supply, medical etc., so in some cases there may be attachement of other branches to
an infantry brigade that are not normaly a part of that brigade.  It all depends on the "MIssion".
 
Good work Dan.  Stay with it.
 
Ed (s.j.) USA
 
 
 

From: Dan Ford <cub06h@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade

Think of it this way:

The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads
make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
company, so a company is about 150 men.

Four companies in a battalion, along with headquarters staff and maybe a
signals and a weapons platoon. So a battalion might be 600-1,000 men.

Four battalions plus headquarters, artillery, and other support units 
in a brigade or regiment (they are about the same thing). So a brigade
might be 4000-5000 men.

Four brigades or regiments to a division, plus "div arty" and other
support units, to a total of 10,000-15,000 men. You might for example
have three infantry brigades/regiments and one armored brigade in a
division. Or an armored brigade might be more or less independent,
operating in support of one or more different infantry divisions at
different times. Thus the British 7th Armoured Brigade "Desert Rats"
went from North Africa to reinforce Burma in 1942.

This varies of course from army to army and from war to war. During WW2,
divisions were organized into corps, and corps were organized into
armies, and armies were organized into army groups, until one was
dealing with millions of men. Today, even the division is going out of
fashion. The US Army is moving toward an organization in which brigades
are the largest operating unit.

- Dan Ford US

On 11/18/2012 9:26 AM, Richard Kozlowski wrote:
> I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade



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#53188 From: Basia <basia@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
basiazielins...
Send Email Send Email
 
Dan
This is illuminating!
Thank you

Basia Zielinska (Sydney)







On 18/11/12 4:58 AM, "Dan Ford" <cub06h@...> wrote:

>Think of it this way:
>
>The smallest infantry group is a squad of ten or twelve men. Four squads
>make up a platoon, and four platoons plus headquarters make up a
>company, so a company is about 150 men.
>
>Four companies in a battalion, along with headquarters staff and maybe a
>signals and a weapons platoon. So a battalion might be 600-1,000 men.
>
>Four battalions plus headquarters, artillery, and other support units
>in a brigade or regiment (they are about the same thing). So a brigade
>might be 4000-5000 men.
>
>Four brigades or regiments to a division, plus "div arty" and other
>support units, to a total of 10,000-15,000 men. You might for example
>have three infantry brigades/regiments and one armored brigade in a
>division. Or an armored brigade might be more or less independent,
>operating in support of one or more different infantry divisions at
>different times. Thus the British 7th Armoured Brigade "Desert Rats"
>went from North Africa to reinforce Burma in 1942.
>
>This varies of course from army to army and from war to war. During WW2,
>divisions were organized into corps, and corps were organized into
>armies, and armies were organized into army groups, until one was
>dealing with millions of men. Today, even the division is going out of
>fashion. The US Army is moving toward an organization in which brigades
>are the largest operating unit.
>
>- Dan Ford US
>
>On 11/18/2012 9:26 AM, Richard Kozlowski wrote:
>> I have no idea whether I mean battalion or brigade
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>* PLEASE PAY YOUR ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP FEE & MAKE A DONATION:
>http://tinyurl.com/ks-contribute
>____________________________________________________________
>
>* Visit our merchandise & Bookstore: http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP & FOUNDATION
>
>"Research, Remembrance and Recognition of Polish citizens fighting for
>freedom in the Eastern Borderlands and in Exile during World War 2."
>_______________________________________________________________________
>OUR WEBSITES
>
>* Discussion group        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
>* Virtual Museum          http://www.kresy-siberia.org/
>* Facebook Page!          http://www.facebook.com/KSF.FKS
>* Memorial gallery        http://kresy-siberia.com/gallery
>* Kresy property claims   http://www.kresy-claims.org
>* Merchandise & Bookstore http://tinyurl.com/KS-Store
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>* To CONTACT the Group Moderators please send an e-mail to:
>  Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>* To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
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>  Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
>  Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>

#53189 From: Anne Kaczanowski <kazameena@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:09 pm
Subject: Polish soldiers in Red ....Mark
kazameena
Send Email Send Email
 
I had a Polish uncle who had previously  served in 1915-1918 Austrian army...then Polish army 1919-1920..Infantry.....then after ended up living in Luck, Wolyn.  In September, 1944, he was conscripted at 45 years old to enlist in the Red Army....He was wounded in Kolobrzeg and during the time he recuperated in hospital his family was removed and relocated to newly acquired territory in Western Poland Sczcecin.  He had no idea where they were even moved to until he was well enough to find them.  Just out of curiosity I wrote the Warsaw Archives for information on him....and to my surprise recieved a photocopy of his original army registration in Luck.  I was surprised to see it all in Polish handwriting. 
 
So my question is: 
 
 As a 45 year old civilian living in Soviet occupied territory in 1944 , when he is conscripted to the Red army...is he conscripted and considered  "Soviet" civilian?  And would he have served under Berling?
 
And his registration also says he was mobilized RWK Luck( this would probably be after 1920)....Does that mean a reserve?
 
I am sure he did not volunteer in the Red Army at 45 years old, as he had a family to look after.  So I am assuming he had no choice but to enlist. The registration only has 4999 Infantry at bottom so I don't know other than this what regiment he would have been in.
 
But another note here for people searching...this was my uncle...long dead...I had no proof of kinship...wrote a letter to Warsaw Archives....just asked for info on him...and just before Christmas one year recieved the gift of information. 
 
hania

From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 8:23:27 AM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
 
Dear Group,

Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called "Labour front". Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.

Poles in the red Army… treason? A controversial issue. I would argue that a case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in the East were traitors. My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177, which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were conscripted – again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement Corps. The PRC was an organ of the British Government – unlike the Polish Army under British Command which remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.

This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish 1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view, the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.

As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either. Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told – usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call Anders a traitor. With the case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.

Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially if that country is hostile to the first.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski


#53190 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:16 pm
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
mark_oyun
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Stan,

With regards to your first point, one cannot accept the premise that if one
believes something to be correct then any actions taken from that idea are
permissable. The invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union was contrary to
international law, and the note you refer to was but a pretext to that invasion.
And even if it were true in 1939, it most certainly was not true in 1941 when
the USSR  and Poland DID have diplomatic relations. The fact that I am here to
write this today is testment to the fact that Stalin DID recognise the Sikorski
government.Even in 1943 when Moscow broke off dipllomatic relations with the
Polish Government, there was still only one legal Polish government... the one
in London. Stalin had no right to comment on any decisions or actions taken by
that government in regards to its soldiers.

Having said that, do not get me wrong. I have no particular problem with Berling
or the creation of the Berling Army and as I said previously I hope I would have
had the courage to do the same, but let us not pretend that his actions were in
conformity with Polish law. They were not, but history is full of examples of
well meaning actions taken by people whose actions were taken with the best
intentions, but were in fact treason. The Founding Fathers of the USA is the
example that springs to mind. I would not equate Berling with Thomas Jefferson
or Benjamin Franklin, but the analogy stands.

Everything you say about Berling may well be true, but let us not pretend it was
anything other that what it was. If he had fallen into the hands of the London
Poles he would have been shot. He did not and the communists put up a statue to
him.

You quote the Bible, I'll quote Sir John Harrington:

Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski



--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stanislaw Zwierzynski
<zwierzinski1957@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Mark
>
> You are very good in terms of international law, explained difference between
Anders and Berling, and I'm sitting in a warm apartment after 70 years, agree
with you.
> Berling (in terms of government Sikorski and Anders) was a traitor.
>
> But September 17, 1939, Ambassador of Poland in Moscow was presented a note of
the USSR (monstrous indeed, but not the point) that a country such as Poland in
terms of the USSR (Stalin) is no more. So from the point of view of Stalin
 Sikorski government was illegitimate, and then it had no right to label - a
traitor or a hero.
>
> And the Soviet Union consistently adhered to this idea.
>
> Stalin in 1943, has already felt like a winner - a radical turn in the war has
already occurred (Kursk Duga). Stalin wanted to create a vassal socialist Poland
- he needed a mechanism of local government, a compliant government. Berling was
very necessary advice.
> But Berling did much to make many Poles from camps, where they were in 1939 -
they could disappear there. Studies show that 5 years at hard labor camp few
people lived, 2-3 years - much more.
>
> It is known that, when formed Anders Army, NKVD redoubled its efforts on
processing of Polish prisoners of war. Certainly much has been recruited or
brainwashed. Berling was one of them. Do not forget that not all was well in
Poland, 1920-39 years., had a very strong social stratification of people. All
this played out that some of officers and soldiers sailed with Anders. But of
course, majority of military joining to army Berling was only one way out of
hell. The fact is that in 1943-44 again faced new wave of terror, and Poles who
were released under an amnesty in August 1941, and not arrived to armies,  were
back in Gulag camps.
>
> So I stand by my opinion - I will not name Berling as traitor. The fact that
he was a conformist - yes. But the fact that Poland was reborn thanks to him,
even as a vassal of socialist Soviet Union, too, no doubt. In the late 40's and
early 50's in Poland reigned extraordinary growth, both in spirit and in
manufacturing. Rose from the ruins of Warsaw and others cities.
> Berling certainly loved his country, and did much for her, at least not less
than Anders.
> But here's what the price - it is only God knows. We do not know whether his
tortured agony.
>
> According to their works ye shall know them. From the point of view of the
biblical wisdom, Anders and Berling and not traitors, but worthy children of
Poles.
>
> Stan.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 6:23 PM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re:  Polish soldiers in Red Army (various
threads)
>
>
>  
> Dear Group,
>
> Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not
that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early
conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not
trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any
enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in
military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called
"Labour front".  Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to
build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not
actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the
war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.
>
> Poles in the red Army… treason?  A controversial issue. I would argue that a
case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in
the East were traitors.  My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177,
which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any
Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite
obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were
conscripted â€" again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who
volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they
were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the
fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same
argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of
senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement
Corps. The PRC was an organ of the
>  British Government â€" unlike the Polish Army under British Command which
remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not
the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.
>
> This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish
1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw
became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another
controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push
because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had
the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view,
the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.
>
> As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept
that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't
a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a
serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so
do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either.
Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be
guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told â€"
usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within
his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski
said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would
have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of
Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call
Anders a traitor. With the
>  case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and
with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of
perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.
>
> Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign
armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially
if that country is hostile to the first.
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>

#53191 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:35 pm
Subject: Re: Polish soldiers in Red ....Mark
mark_oyun
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Hania,

I think you will find that he was not conscripted to the Red Army, but the
Polish Army under Soviet Command hence the many Polish references. The Red Army
had no interest in conscripting Poles since they could not be trusted. It was
the Poles who were doing the conscripting from 1944 onwards.  The 1st Polish
Army took Kolobrzeg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Polish_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kolberg_(1945)

RWK is local conscripting office. "Raiyonni Voyenni Komisariyat"

The 4999 I'm still working on.

Best regards, Mark

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Anne Kaczanowski <kazameena@...> wrote:
>
> I had a Polish uncle who had previously  served in 1915-1918 Austrian
army...then Polish army 1919-1920..Infantry.....then after ended up living in
Luck, Wolyn.  In September, 1944, he was conscripted at 45 years old to enlist
in the Red Army....He was wounded in Kolobrzeg and during the time he
recuperated in hospital his family was removed and relocated to newly acquired
territory in Western Poland Sczcecin.  He had no idea where they were even
moved to until he was well enough to find them.  Just out of curiosity I wrote
the Warsaw Archives for information on him....and to my surprise recieved a
photocopy of his original army registration in Luck.  I was surprised to see it
all in Polish handwriting. 
>  
> So my question is: 
>  
>  As a 45 year old civilian living in Soviet occupied territory in 1944 , when
he is conscripted to the Red army...is he conscripted and considered  "Soviet"
civilian?  And would he have served under Berling?
>  
> And his registration also says he was mobilized RWK Luck( this would probably
be after 1920)....Does that mean a reserve?
>  
> I am sure he did not volunteer in the Red Army at 45 years old, as he had a
family to look after.  So I am assuming he had no choice but to enlist. The
registration only has 4999 Infantry at bottom so I don't know other than this
what regiment he would have been in.
>  
> But another note here for people searching...this was my uncle...long dead...I
had no proof of kinship...wrote a letter to Warsaw Archives....just asked for
info on him...and just before Christmas one year recieved the gift of
information. 
>  
> hania
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 8:23:27 AM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re:  Polish soldiers in Red Army (various
threads)
>
>
>  
>
> Dear Group,
>
> Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not
that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early
conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not
trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any
enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in
military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called
"Labour front".  Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to
build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not
actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the
war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.
>
> Poles in the red Army… treason?  A controversial issue. I would argue that a
case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in
the East were traitors.  My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177,
which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any
Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite
obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were
conscripted â€" again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who
volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they
were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the
fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same
argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of
senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement
Corps. The PRC was an organ of the
>  British Government â€" unlike the Polish Army under British Command which
remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not
the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.
>
> This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish
1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw
became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another
controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push
because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had
the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view,
the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.
>
> As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept
that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't
a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a
serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so
do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either.
Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be
guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told â€"
usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within
his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski
said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would
have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of
Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call
Anders a traitor. With the
>  case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and
with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of
perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.
>
> Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign
armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially
if that country is hostile to the first.
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>

#53192 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:00 pm
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: 3rd Armoured Brigade
mark_oyun
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Rich,

OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939.
We've talked about these pictures before:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit...
Syria/Palestine more like.

"3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure
it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have
no idea why I was so sure!

This needs a little more work!

Regards, Mark

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
>
> Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much.  Mark, here are links to the
photo, back and front:
>
> http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
>
> http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
>
> > Dear Rich and Dan,
> >
> > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3
B.P. is "batalion".
> > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
> >
> > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule
of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a
Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
> >
> > Best regards, Mark
> >
> >
>

#53193 From: Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:09 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
zwierzinski1957
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Mark!

You raised an incredibly interesting and bottomless topic treason!
We must understand that betrayal to power does not mean betrayal to the people, to native!
People higher power!
Piland Government in exile there until 1989, so that, all that was in Poland until 1989 was illegal?
Or that's all there was bad?
How many copies broken on it, how much more will the verbal battles, including at Krés
y.
I meet in literature on topics Kresy betrayal - and just leaf through. Because it is not certain that I would have passed this rink.
When the head of osada  gave NKVD  all lists of people - is cheating or not?
You know, what would you do with him and his family if he did not? And still NKVD would calculate all.

Sometimes it's frightening to ask such questions.

I can tell, sitting in warm place, and knowing how it turned out there in history, we can judge monstrous phenomenon in society (eg, Stalinism, fascism, cannibalism), frank villains (such as Lenin, Caligula), but we have exercise restraint in the assessment of people who did so much good, and probably a bad one.

Moses displaying Jews out of Egypt in terms of the Egyptian government was a traitor and criminal, but from the point of view of the Bible - the greatest prophet and savior.

Metropolitan Sergius (1943-44, the Patriarch) of Russia, signed in 1928 a petition for recognition of Soviet power (when sitting in jail for 90% of the priests and bishops) - that he had betrayed the Church? There are different opinions on this. I think that he has not betrayed, and then saved the Russian Church. So think of all the people and theologians, that I respected
.

Subject is incredibly responsible.

Stan from M.


From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 8:16 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)

 
Dear Stan,

With regards to your first point, one cannot accept the premise that if one believes something to be correct then any actions taken from that idea are permissable. The invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union was contrary to international law, and the note you refer to was but a pretext to that invasion. And even if it were true in 1939, it most certainly was not true in 1941 when the USSR and Poland DID have diplomatic relations. The fact that I am here to write this today is testment to the fact that Stalin DID recognise the Sikorski government.Even in 1943 when Moscow broke off dipllomatic relations with the Polish Government, there was still only one legal Polish government... the one in London. Stalin had no right to comment on any decisions or actions taken by that government in regards to its soldiers.

Having said that, do not get me wrong. I have no particular problem with Berling or the creation of the Berling Army and as I said previously I hope I would have had the courage to do the same, but let us not pretend that his actions were in conformity with Polish law. They were not, but history is full of examples of well meaning actions taken by people whose actions were taken with the best intentions, but were in fact treason. The Founding Fathers of the USA is the example that springs to mind. I would not equate Berling with Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, but the analogy stands.

Everything you say about Berling may well be true, but let us not pretend it was anything other that what it was. If he had fallen into the hands of the London Poles he would have been shot. He did not and the communists put up a statue to him.

You quote the Bible, I'll quote Sir John Harrington:

Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

>




#53194 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:39 pm
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
mark_oyun
Send Email Send Email
 

Dear Stan,

You are quite right when you said "betrayal to power does not mean betrayal to the people"... I never said it did.  People who are forced by fear of death to perform actions contrary to law can be excused, people who make an informed choice should be held accountable.  When the Polish Governmnet said: the [1st Polish Infantry] division does not belong to the Polish Army and is a Red Army Division under the command of the Soviet authorities they were stating a legal fact.  Zygmunt Berling was not Moses. He knew what he was doing and as a serving senior Polish officer he knew the punishment for desertion was severe. Even with the best intentions in the world, he must have known the consequences. Having said that, my point is purely legal. I do not judge him and leave the philosophy and metaphysics to others.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

PS. The question of the legality of the People's Republic of Poland as opposed to the Polish Government in Exile in interesting, but may well be considered "off-topic".

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Mark!
>
> You raised an incredibly interesting and bottomless topic treason!
> We must understand that betrayal to power does not mean betrayal to the people, to native!
> People higher power!
> Piland Government in exile there until 1989, so that, all that was in Poland until 1989 was illegal?
> Or that's all there was bad?
>
> How many copies broken on it, how much more will the verbal battles, including at Krés
> y.
> I meet in literature on topics Kresy betrayal - and just leaf through. Because it is not certain that I would have passed this rink.
> When the head of osada  gave NKVD  all lists of people - is cheating or not?
> You know, what would you do with him and his family if he did not? And still NKVD would calculate all.
>
> Sometimes it's frightening to ask such questions.
>
> I can tell, sitting in warm place, and knowing how it turned out there in history, we can judge monstrous phenomenon in society (eg, Stalinism, fascism, cannibalism), frank villains (such as Lenin, Caligula), but we have exercise restraint in the assessment of people who did so much good, and probably a bad one.
>
> Moses displaying Jews out of Egypt in terms of the Egyptian government was a traitor and criminal, but from the point of view of the Bible - the greatest prophet and savior.
>
> Metropolitan Sergius (1943-44, the Patriarch) of Russia, signed in 1928 a petition for recognition of Soviet power (when sitting in jail for 90% of the priests and bishops) - that he had betrayed the Church? There are different opinions on this. I think that he has not betrayed, and then saved the Russian Church. So think of all the people and theologians, that I respected.
>
> Subject is incredibly responsible.
>
>
> Stan from M.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mark and Oyun mark_oyun@...
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 8:16 PM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
>
>
>  
> Dear Stan,
>
> With regards to your first point, one cannot accept the premise that if one believes something to be correct then any actions taken from that idea are permissable. The invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union was contrary to international law, and the note you refer to was but a pretext to that invasion. And even if it were true in 1939, it most certainly was not true in 1941 when the USSR and Poland DID have diplomatic relations. The fact that I am here to write this today is testment to the fact that Stalin DID recognise the Sikorski government.Even in 1943 when Moscow broke off dipllomatic relations with the Polish Government, there was still only one legal Polish government... the one in London. Stalin had no right to comment on any decisions or actions taken by that government in regards to its soldiers.
>
> Having said that, do not get me wrong. I have no particular problem with Berling or the creation of the Berling Army and as I said previously I hope I would have had the courage to do the same, but let us not pretend that his actions were in conformity with Polish law. They were not, but history is full of examples of well meaning actions taken by people whose actions were taken with the best intentions, but were in fact treason. The Founding Fathers of the USA is the example that springs to mind. I would not equate Berling with Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, but the analogy stands.
>
> Everything you say about Berling may well be true, but let us not pretend it was anything other that what it was. If he had fallen into the hands of the London Poles he would have been shot. He did not and the communists put up a statue to him.
>
> You quote the Bible, I'll quote Sir John Harrington:
>
> Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
> Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>
> >
>


#53195 From: "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:47 pm
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
lenardaszymczak
Send Email Send Email
 

Enough of the debate of Treason or Traitor.  Did anyone notice (DO NOT DEBATE) we are here to research our families  and not be politicians. It is bad enough with our families being caught on both sides of the fence, but we do not wish to discuss their guilt or innocence, only what happened to them and why and find them.   these people are members of family to KS group, living breathing people, who were caught up in the horrors and war and tried to survive, through no fault of their own.  We do not judge them, we only wish to find them and in doing this we have to look at both sides of the fence.  These debates are detracting from true research  for our families.  I only put up the post because little was known about Berlinga Army and its movements and some of us, do have family who were conscripted into the Red Army.  My Uncle for one, he had no choice.  We all wish the war was different, but it was not and now we have the painful task of locating loved ones lost.  Let’s get back to basics and true research for OUR FAMILY, THE KRESY FAMILIES, and LOVED ONES LOST.

 

I am not a moderator, only very angry at the time lost and wasted in debates of RIGHT AND WRONG. If there was an Earthquake, would we stand there and debate was it the fault of God, or bad building code, or the Planet shifting.  No, most certainly not, we would be focused on finding the survivors of the Earthquake and burying the dead and then remembering them with HONOUR.  Right now, we should focus on research of our loved ones lost and their journey and miracles still happen, finding living relatives.

 

Regards,

Lenarda, Australia

 

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark and Oyun
Sent: Monday, 19 November, 2012 4:16 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)

 

 

Dear Stan,

With regards to your first point, one cannot accept the premise that if one believes something to be correct then any actions taken from that idea are permissable. The invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union was contrary to international law, and the note you refer to was but a pretext to that invasion. And even if it were true in 1939, it most certainly was not true in 1941 when the USSR and Poland DID have diplomatic relations. The fact that I am here to write this today is testment to the fact that Stalin DID recognise the Sikorski government.Even in 1943 when Moscow broke off dipllomatic relations with the Polish Government, there was still only one legal Polish government... the one in London. Stalin had no right to comment on any decisions or actions taken by that government in regards to its soldiers.

Having said that, do not get me wrong. I have no particular problem with Berling or the creation of the Berling Army and as I said previously I hope I would have had the courage to do the same, but let us not pretend that his actions were in conformity with Polish law. They were not, but history is full of examples of well meaning actions taken by people whose actions were taken with the best intentions, but were in fact treason. The Founding Fathers of the USA is the example that springs to mind. I would not equate Berling with Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, but the analogy stands.

Everything you say about Berling may well be true, but let us not pretend it was anything other that what it was. If he had fallen into the hands of the London Poles he would have been shot. He did not and the communists put up a statue to him.

You quote the Bible, I'll quote Sir John Harrington:

Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Mark
>
> You are very good in terms of international law, explained difference between Anders and Berling, and I'm sitting in a warm apartment after 70 years, agree with you.
> Berling (in terms of government Sikorski and Anders) was a traitor.
>
> But September 17, 1939, Ambassador of Poland in Moscow was presented a note of the USSR (monstrous indeed, but not the point) that a country such as Poland in terms of the USSR (Stalin) is no more. So from the point of view of Stalin  Sikorski government was illegitimate, and then it had no right to label - a traitor or a hero.
>
> And the Soviet Union consistently adhered to this idea.
>
> Stalin in 1943, has already felt like a winner - a radical turn in the war has already occurred (Kursk Duga). Stalin wanted to create a vassal socialist Poland - he needed a mechanism of local government, a compliant government. Berling was very necessary advice.
> But Berling did much to make many Poles from camps, where they were in 1939 - they could disappear there. Studies show that 5 years at hard labor camp few people lived, 2-3 years - much more.
>
> It is known that, when formed Anders Army, NKVD redoubled its efforts on processing of Polish prisoners of war. Certainly much has been recruited or brainwashed. Berling was one of them. Do not forget that not all was well in Poland, 1920-39 years., had a very strong social stratification of people. All this played out that some of officers and soldiers sailed with Anders. But of course, majority of military joining to army Berling was only one way out of hell. The fact is that in 1943-44 again faced new wave of terror, and Poles who were released under an amnesty in August 1941, and not arrived to armies,  were back in Gulag camps.
>
> So I stand by my opinion - I will not name Berling as traitor. The fact that he was a conformist - yes. But the fact that Poland was reborn thanks to him, even as a vassal of socialist Soviet Union, too, no doubt. In the late 40's and early 50's in Poland reigned extraordinary growth, both in spirit and in manufacturing. Rose from the ruins of Warsaw and others cities.
> Berling certainly loved his country, and did much for her, at least not less than Anders.
> But here's what the price - it is only God knows. We do not know whether his tortured agony.
>
> According to their works ye shall know them. From the point of view of the biblical wisdom, Anders and Berling and not traitors, but worthy children of Poles.
>
> Stan.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 6:23 PM
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
>
>
>  
> Dear Group,
>
> Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called "Labour front". Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.
>
> Poles in the red Army… treason? A controversial issue. I would argue that a case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in the East were traitors. My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177, which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were conscripted â€" again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement Corps. The PRC was an organ of the
> British Government â€" unlike the Polish Army under British Command which remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.
>
> This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish 1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view, the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.
>
> As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either. Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told â€" usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call Anders a traitor. With the
> case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.
>
> Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially if that country is hostile to the first.
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>


#53196 From: "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:54 pm
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish soldiers in Red Army (do not debate)
annapacewicz
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Stan, thank you for your post. It is an engrossing topic and I have enjoyed
reading the exchanges between you and Mark.

I would point out that yes, Anders was a smart man and no doubt could be tricky.
But he would have fought on the Eastern front had Stalin:
- Fed, equipped and trained his army
- Allowed the Polish Army to fight as a single Army

But Stalin kept the Polish Army under provisioned (continually cutting rations).
He wanted to send the ill-prepared Polish Army to the Eastern Front but
scattering the Polish Army amongst the Red Army divisions. I quote Anders,

"but said that the whole army must go into action together and that, first of
all, the men must be properly fed, armed and trained. I pointed out that if
separate divisions were sent to the front, they would be almost lost among the
vast numbers engaged there, and the fact that the Polish troops were fighting
would hardly be realised, even in Poland".

This was in accordance with the Polish-Soviet Agreement which "stated that
Polish troops should not be used at the front in scattered formations, but as
one entity".

Anders sought the approval of General Sikorski and noted that he "was relieved"
when Sikorski agreed. Had Anders been commanded by Sikorski to do as Stalin
wished, he would no doubt have complied.

The Soviets went to great lengths to exploit this as progaganda that the Polish
Army would not fight on the Eastern Front.

Regarding Berling... to Mark's point from a legal point of view he was a
traitor. And to your point, he saved many Polish lives. It is a thorny question!

Best regards,
Anna Pacewicz
Sydney

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Stanislaw Zwierzynski
<zwierzinski1957@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Anna!
>
> That's my opinion on your question.
>
> From the point of view of Anders - Berling was a traitor.
> But from the point of view of Stalin and environment - just Anders was a
traitor, as able to lead his army to fight in Europe, but not on eastern front.
> After all, for fighting on Eastern Front USSR was created this army. But smart
Anders using various tricks and British pressure, led 117,000 people from the
Soviet Union, remained of Polish military elite, certainly made feat.
>
> But I would not be so uniquely called Beurling traitor. After all, if it were
not for courage and heroism of his army, marked by Stalin and Churchill, it
remains to be revived Poland after the war (I think that yes) - but these are
the boundaries - big question.
> It is no secret that many non-Polish lands (one-third of East Prussia, Gdansk
metropolitan area, etc.) were attached to Poland.
> I know that, for example, city Bialystok with suburbs Stalin's original plan
was to be Belarusian. But then Burling and his men managed to "win" him back.
>
> I know from Russian sources, that those members of army Anders, who after 1946
returned to Kresy, most of them were persecuted and sent to camps for 8-10
years. For this reason, I think, my grandfather did not come back.
>
> On the other hand, I have my own history. The brother of my grandfather
Alphons (b. 1915), fought from 1 to 18 September 1939 with Germans, became a
prisoner of war, was sent to Krivoy Rog to steel mill, and then it was
transferred to Kotlas - SevZelDorLag. So on the way he ran away from NKVD!
Hiding in forests Naliboki Pusha, fought in AK. So when the Soviet Army reached
Iwieniec, Alphons came in it (or in army Berling) and reached Berlin. And thus
saved his life! After war, he was not arrested.
>
> So I would not call Berling traitor. He also saved many Polish lives.
>
> Stan from M.
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: annapacewicz <annapacewicz@...>
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 2:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Polish soldiers in Red Army (do not
debate)
>
>
>  
> Dear group, I am just reading Anders memoirs "Army in Exile". He regarding
Berling as a traitor because he deserted the Polish Army in the USSR. I quote "I
had received a report on the desertion of Leiutenant-Colonel Zygmunt Berling and
several officers who had belonged to the gruop trained in Communist spirit at
the so-called "Villa of Happiness" near Moscow. They took with them a car and
all the documents at our base at Krasnovodsk"... the point here is that Berling
had a choice. He chose the Red Army (with a General's commission) when he could
have chosen the Polish Army.
>
> But the vast majority of soldiers had no choice. After 1942 and the exodus of
the Polish Army in the USSR to Persia, the Polish men who remained in exile in
the USSR or the men in the Borderlands had no choice. Anders goes onto quote a
letter from General Sosnkowski in 1944 prior to the Warsaw Uprising, to the
President, Mr Raczkiewicz
>
> "I can but mention the convocation of the Committee of National Liberation and
the official agreement signed by that Committee at the Kremlin; the arrest of
commanders and staff of the Vilno and Novogrodek areas of the Home Army; the
disarmament of the 27th Infantry Division, and the deportations from the eastern
provinces which have begun and are confirmed by numerous letters received in
Tehran and written by Poles deported to Middle Siberia, and the Semipalatinsk
District..."
>
> There is no doubt that as soon as the Soviets re occupied the Borderlands from
the Germans that forced conscription, repressions and deportations resumed in
earnest.
>
> Anna Pacewicz
> Sydney Australia
>

#53197 From: "annapacewicz" <annapacewicz@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:02 pm
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
annapacewicz
Send Email Send Email
 
Lendarda, I understand that this is a sensitive issue. I believe that in trying
to understand what happened to our families who were conscripted into the Red
Army, these are natural avenues that fall-out of that discussion and search for
truth. The question of "traitor" was quoted by General Anders and as Mark
pointed out, applies only to Berling in a LEGAL sense, and not to our own men
who had no choice in the matter. My own uncle fought under Soviet command and I
don't think that anybody is judging him, or any of our soldiers, who had to do
the same. I think that the points of view have been exchanged amicably and
intellectually and without personal slander. But I'm sorry if the exchanges have
distressed you.
I suggest that any further comments regarding Berling maybe started under a new
thread?

With very best regards
Anna Pacewicz
Sydney Australia


--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...> wrote:
>
> Enough of the debate of Treason or Traitor.  Did anyone notice (DO NOT DEBATE)
we are here to research our families  and not be politicians. It is bad enough
with our families being caught on both sides of the fence, but we do not wish to
discuss their guilt or innocence, only what happened to them and why and find
them.   these people are members of family to KS group, living breathing people,
who were caught up in the horrors and war and tried to survive, through no fault
of their own.  We do not judge them, we only wish to find them and in doing this
we have to look at both sides of the fence.  These debates are detracting from
true research  for our families.  I only put up the post because little was
known about Berlinga Army and its movements and some of us, do have family who
were conscripted into the Red Army.  My Uncle for one, he had no choice.  We all
wish the war was different, but it was not and now we have the painful task of
locating loved ones lost.  Let’s get back to basics and true research for OUR
FAMILY, THE KRESY FAMILIES, and LOVED ONES LOST.
>
>
>
> I am not a moderator, only very angry at the time lost and wasted in debates
of RIGHT AND WRONG. If there was an Earthquake, would we stand there and debate
was it the fault of God, or bad building code, or the Planet shifting.  No, most
certainly not, we would be focused on finding the survivors of the Earthquake
and burying the dead and then remembering them with HONOUR.  Right now, we
should focus on research of our loved ones lost and their journey and miracles
still happen, finding living relatives.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lenarda, Australia
>
>
>
> From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Mark and Oyun
> Sent: Monday, 19 November, 2012 4:16 AM
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various
threads)
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Stan,
>
> With regards to your first point, one cannot accept the premise that if one
believes something to be correct then any actions taken from that idea are
permissable. The invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union was contrary to
international law, and the note you refer to was but a pretext to that invasion.
And even if it were true in 1939, it most certainly was not true in 1941 when
the USSR and Poland DID have diplomatic relations. The fact that I am here to
write this today is testment to the fact that Stalin DID recognise the Sikorski
government.Even in 1943 when Moscow broke off dipllomatic relations with the
Polish Government, there was still only one legal Polish government... the one
in London. Stalin had no right to comment on any decisions or actions taken by
that government in regards to its soldiers.
>
> Having said that, do not get me wrong. I have no particular problem with
Berling or the creation of the Berling Army and as I said previously I hope I
would have had the courage to do the same, but let us not pretend that his
actions were in conformity with Polish law. They were not, but history is full
of examples of well meaning actions taken by people whose actions were taken
with the best intentions, but were in fact treason. The Founding Fathers of the
USA is the example that springs to mind. I would not equate Berling with Thomas
Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, but the analogy stands.
>
> Everything you say about Berling may well be true, but let us not pretend it
was anything other that what it was. If he had fallen into the hands of the
London Poles he would have been shot. He did not and the communists put up a
statue to him.
>
> You quote the Bible, I'll quote Sir John Harrington:
>
> Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
> Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com>
, Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mark
> >
> > You are very good in terms of international law, explained difference
between Anders and Berling, and I'm sitting in a warm apartment after 70 years,
agree with you.
> > Berling (in terms of government Sikorski and Anders) was a traitor.
> >
> > But September 17, 1939, Ambassador of Poland in Moscow was presented a note
of the USSR (monstrous indeed, but not the point) that a country such as Poland
in terms of the USSR (Stalin) is no more. So from the point of view of Stalin Â
Sikorski government was illegitimate, and then it had no right to label - a
traitor or a hero.
> >
> > And the Soviet Union consistently adhered to this idea.
> >
> > Stalin in 1943, has already felt like a winner - a radical turn in the war
has already occurred (Kursk Duga). Stalin wanted to create a vassal socialist
Poland - he needed a mechanism of local government, a compliant government.
Berling was very necessary advice.
> > But Berling did much to make many Poles from camps, where they were in 1939
- they could disappear there. Studies show that 5 years at hard labor camp few
people lived, 2-3 years - much more.
> >
> > It is known that, when formed Anders Army, NKVD redoubled its efforts on
processing of Polish prisoners of war. Certainly much has been recruited or
brainwashed. Berling was one of them. Do not forget that not all was well in
Poland, 1920-39 years., had a very strong social stratification of people. All
this played out that some of officers and soldiers sailed with Anders. But of
course, majority of military joining to army Berling was only one way out of
hell. The fact is that in 1943-44 again faced new wave of terror, and Poles who
were released under an amnesty in August 1941, and not arrived to armies, Â
were back in Gulag camps.
> >
> > So I stand by my opinion - I will not name Berling as traitor. The fact that
he was a conformist - yes. But the fact that Poland was reborn thanks to him,
even as a vassal of socialist Soviet Union, too, no doubt. In the late 40's and
early 50's in Poland reigned extraordinary growth, both in spirit and in
manufacturing. Rose from the ruins of Warsaw and others cities.
> > Berling certainly loved his country, and did much for her, at least not less
than Anders.
> > But here's what the price - it is only God knows. We do not know whether his
tortured agony.
> >
> > According to their works ye shall know them. From the point of view of the
biblical wisdom, Anders and Berling and not traitors, but worthy children of
Poles.
> >
> > Stan.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@>
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 6:23 PM
> > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various
threads)
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Dear Group,
> >
> > Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were
not that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early
conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not
trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight
with any enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were
in military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so
called "Labour front". Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction
Battalions to build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were
conscripted did not actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used
to support the war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.
> >
> > Poles in the red Army… treason? A controversial issue. I would argue
that a case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st
Army in the East were traitors. My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post
53177, which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of
choice. Any Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was
quite obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who
were conscripted â€" again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who
volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution
they were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but
the fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The
same argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number
of senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement
Corps. The PRC was an organ of the
> > British Government â€" unlike the Polish Army under British Command which
remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not
the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.
> >
> > This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the
Polish 1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in
Warsaw became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another
controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push
because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had
the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view,
the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.
> >
> > As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK,
I accept that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except
that it wasn't a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did
not/does not allow a serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of
another country. To so do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly
relevant here either. Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish
Government, he may be guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did
as he was told â€" usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he
would have been within his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of
Stalin. Had Sikorski said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders
said "NO", that would have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin
happy was top of Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would
allow us to call Anders a traitor. With the
> > case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and
with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of
perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.
> >
> > Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign
armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially
if that country is hostile to the first.
> >
> > Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
> >
>

#53198 From: "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:18 pm
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
lenardaszymczak
Send Email Send Email
 

Anna, thank you, and yes I did get sensitive, imagining a full on brawl, but as you pointed out that during all this time the exchange has been amicable and intellectual.  Being first generation of a survivor and finding my families true identity through the wonderful KS group, perhaps I am overprotective and sensitive, as I am sure there are other members out there the same as me and I did not wish them hurt or retreating from their painful journey of discovery about their families. But truth is truth and at times it hurts.

 

Warmest regards,

Lenarda, Australia

 

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of annapacewicz
Sent: Monday, 19 November, 2012 8:03 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)

 

 

Lendarda, I understand that this is a sensitive issue. I believe that in trying to understand what happened to our families who were conscripted into the Red Army, these are natural avenues that fall-out of that discussion and search for truth. The question of "traitor" was quoted by General Anders and as Mark pointed out, applies only to Berling in a LEGAL sense, and not to our own men who had no choice in the matter. My own uncle fought under Soviet command and I don't think that anybody is judging him, or any of our soldiers, who had to do the same. I think that the points of view have been exchanged amicably and intellectually and without personal slander. But I'm sorry if the exchanges have distressed you.
I suggest that any further comments regarding Berling maybe started under a new thread?

With very best regards
Anna Pacewicz
Sydney Australia


--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...> wrote:
>
> Enough of the debate of Treason or Traitor. Did anyone notice (DO NOT DEBATE) we are here to research our families and not be politicians. It is bad enough with our families being caught on both sides of the fence, but we do not wish to discuss their guilt or innocence, only what happened to them and why and find them. these people are members of family to KS group, living breathing people, who were caught up in the horrors and war and tried to survive, through no fault of their own. We do not judge them, we only wish to find them and in doing this we have to look at both sides of the fence. These debates are detracting from true research for our families. I only put up the post because little was known about Berlinga Army and its movements and some of us, do have family who were conscripted into the Red Army. My Uncle for one, he had no choice. We all wish the war was different, but it was not and now we have the painful task of locating loved ones lost. Let’s get back to basics and true research for OUR FAMILY, THE KRESY FAMILIES, and LOVED ONES LOST.
>
>
>
> I am not a moderator, only very angry at the time lost and wasted in debates of RIGHT AND WRONG. If there was an Earthquake, would we stand there and debate was it the fault of God, or bad building code, or the Planet shifting. No, most certainly not, we would be focused on finding the survivors of the Earthquake and burying the dead and then remembering them with HONOUR. Right now, we should focus on research of our loved ones lost and their journey and miracles still happen, finding living relatives.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Lenarda, Australia
>
>
>
> From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark and Oyun
> Sent: Monday, 19 November, 2012 4:16 AM
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Stan,
>
> With regards to your first point, one cannot accept the premise that if one believes something to be correct then any actions taken from that idea are permissable. The invasion of Poland by the Soviet Union was contrary to international law, and the note you refer to was but a pretext to that invasion. And even if it were true in 1939, it most certainly was not true in 1941 when the USSR and Poland DID have diplomatic relations. The fact that I am here to write this today is testment to the fact that Stalin DID recognise the Sikorski government.Even in 1943 when Moscow broke off dipllomatic relations with the Polish Government, there was still only one legal Polish government... the one in London. Stalin had no right to comment on any decisions or actions taken by that government in regards to its soldiers.
>
> Having said that, do not get me wrong. I have no particular problem with Berling or the creation of the Berling Army and as I said previously I hope I would have had the courage to do the same, but let us not pretend that his actions were in conformity with Polish law. They were not, but history is full of examples of well meaning actions taken by people whose actions were taken with the best intentions, but were in fact treason. The Founding Fathers of the USA is the example that springs to mind. I would not equate Berling with Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, but the analogy stands.
>
> Everything you say about Berling may well be true, but let us not pretend it was anything other that what it was. If he had fallen into the hands of the London Poles he would have been shot. He did not and the communists put up a statue to him.
>
> You quote the Bible, I'll quote Sir John Harrington:
>
> Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
> Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
>
> Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com> , Stanislaw Zwierzynski <zwierzinski1957@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mark
> >
> > You are very good in terms of international law, explained difference between Anders and Berling, and I'm sitting in a warm apartment after 70 years, agree with you.
> > Berling (in terms of government Sikorski and Anders) was a traitor.
> >
> > But September 17, 1939, Ambassador of Poland in Moscow was presented a note of the USSR (monstrous indeed, but not the point) that a country such as Poland in terms of the USSR (Stalin) is no more. So from the point of view of Stalin  Sikorski government was illegitimate, and then it had no right to label - a traitor or a hero.
> >
> > And the Soviet Union consistently adhered to this idea.
> >
> > Stalin in 1943, has already felt like a winner - a radical turn in the war has already occurred (Kursk Duga). Stalin wanted to create a vassal socialist Poland - he needed a mechanism of local government, a compliant government. Berling was very necessary advice.
> > But Berling did much to make many Poles from camps, where they were in 1939 - they could disappear there. Studies show that 5 years at hard labor camp few people lived, 2-3 years - much more.
> >
> > It is known that, when formed Anders Army, NKVD redoubled its efforts on processing of Polish prisoners of war. Certainly much has been recruited or brainwashed. Berling was one of them. Do not forget that not all was well in Poland, 1920-39 years., had a very strong social stratification of people. All this played out that some of officers and soldiers sailed with Anders. But of course, majority of military joining to army Berling was only one way out of hell. The fact is that in 1943-44 again faced new wave of terror, and Poles who were released under an amnesty in August 1941, and not arrived to armies, Â were back in Gulag camps.
> >
> > So I stand by my opinion - I will not name Berling as traitor. The fact that he was a conformist - yes. But the fact that Poland was reborn thanks to him, even as a vassal of socialist Soviet Union, too, no doubt. In the late 40's and early 50's in Poland reigned extraordinary growth, both in spirit and in manufacturing. Rose from the ruins of Warsaw and others cities.
> > Berling certainly loved his country, and did much for her, at least not less than Anders.
> > But here's what the price - it is only God knows. We do not know whether his tortured agony.
> >
> > According to their works ye shall know them. From the point of view of the biblical wisdom, Anders and Berling and not traitors, but worthy children of Poles.
> >
> > Stan.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@>
> > To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 6:23 PM
> > Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Dear Group,
> >
> > Poles in the Red Army… how many? I think you will find that there were not that many Poles (from the Kresy) fighting in the Red Army from the early conscriptions of 1939/40. As has been said previously, the Poles were not trusted… quite rightly… how would they expect the Poles to fight with any enthusiasm for an army that invaded their country? The Poles who were in military units were very quickly removed to the rear to serve in the so called "Labour front". Later many Poles were conscripted to Construction Battalions to build front-line fortifications. Most of the Poles who were conscripted did not actually fight; they were a source or semi-slave labour used to support the war-effort. The "how many" remains an open question.
> >
> > Poles in the red Army… treason? A controversial issue. I would argue that a case could be made that some Poles who volunteered for the Polish 1st Army in the East were traitors. My reasoning, being in line with Anna's post 53177, which is why Berling was considered a traitor. It was a question of choice. Any Pole who was in the Soviet Union, of course they would join. It was quite obviously a question of survival and no one could blame them. Poles who were conscripted â€" again, no choice. I am talking about the many Poles who volunteered… were they traitors? By definition of the Polish constitution they were. It is not an argument I would put forward with any enthusiasm, but the fact remains that they volunteered for an army serving another power. The same argument was used by the Warsaw Poles to remove the citizenship of a number of senior Polish officers after the war when they joined the Polish Resettlement Corps. The PRC was an organ of the
> > British Government â€" unlike the Polish Army under British Command which remained under the legitimate Polish Government (albeit in exile). Irony was not the strong point of the Warsaw Poles… pot, kettle and black.
> >
> > This "treason", I would argue, could only be counted from the time the Polish 1st Army crossed the Polish Border, and until the Polish government in Warsaw became the de jure Polish government… and that in itself is another controversial issue. As I said previously, it is not something I would push because I would like to think that if I were there at the time I would have had the courage to join the fight against fascism, but from a legal point of view, the case could be made… but I'm not sure I would want to make it.
> >
> > As to General Anders being a traitor… Stan's last post… how? OK, I accept that from Ander's "point of view" Berling was a traitor… except that it wasn't a point of view… it was a point of law. Polish law did not/does not allow a serving soldier to desert his post and join the army of another country. To so do is treason. Stalin's point of view of Anders is hardly relevant here either. Anders was a soldier under direct command of the Polish Government, he may be guilty of many things, but he was a good soldier who did as he was told â€" usually. Even if Stalin had given him a direct order he would have been within his rights to refuse as he was not under the command of Stalin. Had Sikorski said "take your men and fight in the East", and had Anders said "NO", that would have been a different matter. I'm not sure keeping Stalin happy was top of Ander's "to do" list. I can see no circumstances that would allow us to call Anders a traitor. With the
> > case of Berling, treason, even if done with the best will in the world, and with the effect of saving lives, is still treason. It is not a matter of perspective or opinion; it is a matter of law.
> >
> > Most countries still have laws that prevent citizens from joining foreign armies during war time, more so being officers in foreign armies... especially if that country is hostile to the first.
> >
> > Best regards, Mark Ostrowski
> >
>


#53199 From: "Mark and Oyun" <mark_oyun@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:49 pm
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
mark_oyun
Send Email Send Email
 
Dear Lenarda,

No offence intended, but sometimes it is necessary to explore a few of the more
unpalatable events that happened in our history. I would like to thank Anna and
echo her words in that the point was only from a LEGAL point of view. I would
not have the temerity to criticize the soldiers of the 1st and 2nd Polish Army
who suffered and died for the good of Poland and to defeat Naziism. I hope that
the reader will see from my posts that I am neither critical nor judgmental, nor
do I claim to be a moralist. I prefer to deal with facts dispassionately ,
albeit from my own rather peculiar viewpoint.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski

#53200 From: "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:40 pm
Subject: Polish soldiers in Red Army (TRUTH IS TRUTH)
lenardaszymczak
Send Email Send Email
 

Mark, I thank you also and understand that the truth is unpalatable and painful, but truth is truth (it really hurts and is painful at times) and the fact that we survived is a miracle in itself.  As a new person, I made many mistakes in past posts and started heated debates; therefore, I did not wish to be guilty of again starting disharmony and fighting within group.

 

I agree that subjects need to be discussed, otherwise how do we learn.  It is education and understanding that makes a better future.  many of us have so much to question, so much research to do, wishing that in the past we had asked these questions, while our family was alive, but unknown to us, because we were too young, our parents were protecting us or they, themselves were so traumatised by the horrors that they did not wish to remember or speak and wanted their children to grown up, as normal happy kids, without war and its memories of horror.

 

I commend you, Mark, Stan and Anna for the high intellectual discussion, without lowering the values of KS or being derogatory to its members, always respectful, non judgemental, but truthful.  Also, once a subject is out in the open, it is no longer Taboo or that Secret Topic. The more we learn, the more the world learns. It appears that our Group is the Vanguard of Truth.

 

We all have our own way of seeing life, but in group try to learn to see through another’s’ eyes, this is difficult and can only be achieved through discussion of many subjects.  I myself have this fault, as is shown by my sensitivity, but I do understand and have learned that I need to evolve more and all discussion (appropriate discussion) is welcome and I learn through personal choice, as no one compels or forces us to read the posts.   Again I have acquired more knowledge and thank you all for the intellectual, respectful way in which this sensitive, controversial subject is being discussed.

 

Warmest regards

Lenarda, Australia

 

 

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark and Oyun
Sent: Monday, 19 November, 2012 8:50 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)

 

 

Dear Lenarda,

No offence intended, but sometimes it is necessary to explore a few of the more unpalatable events that happened in our history. I would like to thank Anna and echo her words in that the point was only from a LEGAL point of view. I would not have the temerity to criticize the soldiers of the 1st and 2nd Polish Army who suffered and died for the good of Poland and to defeat Naziism. I hope that the reader will see from my posts that I am neither critical nor judgmental, nor do I claim to be a moralist. I prefer to deal with facts dispassionately , albeit from my own rather peculiar viewpoint.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski


#53201 From: Mark <turkiewiczm@...>
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:05 am
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
turkiewiczm
Send Email Send Email
 
Can I say that I am most happy when Lenarda is not upset?
I also want to say that the debate is outstanding to me, really helps me learn.
Stan's point of view is important and I dont mind his 'edginess', and I wish I could attend a lecture by Mark O.
On the point of traitor, I have only casual interest in Berling's legal status. Guys functioning at that level marched to a different drummer. 
But with respect to the polish people at the time, all things considered, how in the world could any of them be viewed a traitor?
My uncle is conscripted in 1943, 3 years after the Nazis attacked. The bolshies hadnt declared war and were also at war with nazis at the time. Katyn was known but who knew who did it at the time. Could you believe anything?
While I havent confirmed his fate, it seems he joined an army run by russians; that might have seemed like a good idea to me at the time. His brother had been killed at Katyn, his nephew went to Anders, what should he have done?
I became fascinated in all this and had an interest in exonerating my grandfather from the allegations against him that lead to Katyn, and now do I have to ask the question if his brother was a traitor?
 
Mark T.
Canada
From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 4:49:35 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
 
Dear Lenarda,

No offence intended, but sometimes it is necessary to explore a few of the more unpalatable events that happened in our history. I would like to thank Anna and echo her words in that the point was only from a LEGAL point of view. I would not have the temerity to criticize the soldiers of the 1st and 2nd Polish Army who suffered and died for the good of Poland and to defeat Naziism. I hope that the reader will see from my posts that I am neither critical nor judgmental, nor do I claim to be a moralist. I prefer to deal with facts dispassionately , albeit from my own rather peculiar viewpoint.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski


#53202 From: Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...>
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:26 am
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] 3rd Armoured Brigade
r52302
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Hi, Mark, yes, I remember our exchange of emails.  That was before I learned that my dad fought in the Polish army in the September campaign.  From the writing on the back of the photo I get the impression that the two may have known each other before Anders and before Palestine, hence the reference to 3 B.P.  Do you think that is unlikely?  Rich


On Nov 18, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Mark and Oyun wrote:

 

Dear Rich,

OK, the mist clears... a little. It's not the 3rd Armoured Battalion from 1939. We've talked about these pictures before:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/message/49275
The picture dates from 1943 so could not be a "Polish" Polish unit... Syria/Palestine more like.

"3BP would normally be 3rd Armoured Brigade of Battalion but I'm fairly sure it's neither of these". I wrote that in March... but for the life of me I have no idea why I was so sure!

This needs a little more work!

Regards, Mark

--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, Richard Kozlowski <r52302@...> wrote:
>
> Mark and Dan, excellent info--thanks so much. Mark, here are links to the photo, back and front:
>
> http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#25
>
> http://www.sinokoz.com/sinokoz.com/Historical/Pages/Dads_Album.html#24
>
>
>
> On Nov 18, 2012, at 10:43 AM, Mark and Oyun wrote:
>
> > Dear Rich and Dan,
> >
> > I don't think there was a 3rd Armoured Brigade in 1939 so I guess the B in 3 B.P. is "batalion".
> > Oh, and your photo attachment didn't seem to come out. Would love to see it.
> >
> > By the way, the Polish Army under British Command followed the British rule of 3s... same as the Dan's US but 3 Battalions to a Brigade+HQ, 3 Brigades to a Division+HQ and 3 Divisions to a Corps.
> >
> > Best regards, Mark
> >
> >
>



#53203 From: "LenardaSzymczak" <szymczak01@...>
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:02 am
Subject: RE: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)
lenardaszymczak
Send Email Send Email
 

How can anyone stay upset with this marvellous group?  There is such a diversity of characters, knowledge and intelligence,(intelligence does not have to be Academic, there are many with life intelligence) all of which, when applied correctly only enhances and strengthens Group.   Never a dull moment and when we think we are educated enough, there is more to learn.

At our best and this is bragging, we could teach the Parliaments of the world how to co-operate with each other and achieve results. 

We all have our own painful journey and walk as individuals, but know that we are supported and understood and respected, corrected or enlightened in a nice way, when we slip, by group.  We are unique.

Keep smiling; I do believe that we as a group have something very special.  Truth is truth, even when it hurts, but please remember, we are not the only ones hurting, as there are others in group feeling very much the same way or much worse.

Only with education, knowledge and truth, we learn, heal, hopefully become better people ourselves, stronger, are believable with facts and eyewitness accounts.

We are the secret, which became the whisper, and then the shout, now the roar in a good way and now the world is listening to us and perhaps will be a better place for our children to live.

Turning negative to positive, as all basic elements and forces, if used correctly, can be very beneficial and productive.

If we do not tell the truth in history, then who will? As of now very few survivors are left, only their children and children’s children, left to carry the legacy.

This group is doing wonderful work, progressing and opening up more doors every day.  Listening and researching, is learning, understanding and hopefully improving our immediate environment, ourselves, our families and those around us.

  SO PROUD TO BE ONE WITH ALL OF YOU AND OF KS GROUP.

Warmest regards,

Lenarda, Australia

 

From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Monday, 19 November, 2012 12:05 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads)(do not debate)

 

 

Can I say that I am most happy when Lenarda is not upset?

I also want to say that the debate is outstanding to me, really helps me learn.

Stan's point of view is important and I dont mind his 'edginess', and I wish I could attend a lecture by Mark O.

On the point of traitor, I have only casual interest in Berling's legal status. Guys functioning at that level marched to a different drummer. 

But with respect to the polish people at the time, all things considered, how in the world could any of them be viewed a traitor?

My uncle is conscripted in 1943, 3 years after the Nazis attacked. The bolshies hadnt declared war and were also at war with nazis at the time. Katyn was known but who knew who did it at the time. Could you believe anything?

While I havent confirmed his fate, it seems he joined an army run by russians; that might have seemed like a good idea to me at the time. His brother had been killed at Katyn, his nephew went to Anders, what should he have done?

I became fascinated in all this and had an interest in exonerating my grandfather from the allegations against him that lead to Katyn, and now do I have to ask the question if his brother was a traitor?

 

Mark T.
Canada

From: Mark and Oyun <mark_oyun@...>
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 4:49:35 PM
Subject: [www.Kresy-Siberia.org] Re: Polish soldiers in Red Army (various threads) (do not debate)

 

Dear Lenarda,

No offence intended, but sometimes it is necessary to explore a few of the more unpalatable events that happened in our history. I would like to thank Anna and echo her words in that the point was only from a LEGAL point of view. I would not have the temerity to criticize the soldiers of the 1st and 2nd Polish Army who suffered and died for the good of Poland and to defeat Naziism. I hope that the reader will see from my posts that I am neither critical nor judgmental, nor do I claim to be a moralist. I prefer to deal with facts dispassionately , albeit from my own rather peculiar viewpoint.

Best regards, Mark Ostrowski


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