All

This is the info that I found

The four major deportations of Polish citizens from the Soviet zone took place on February 10, April 13, and June in 1940, and from mid-June 1941 until the invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany. How many people were deported ? No one really knows and chances are that no one will ever know the full scale of that Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign.
The most conservative Polish count based on Soviet documents is as follows: 140 000 during the first, 60 000 during the second, 80 000 during the third, and 40 000 Polish citizens mainly from the Wilno area during the fourth deportation for a grand total of 320 000 persons. These Soviet figures, even if accurate (and some scholars question their veracity), do not give a complete picture of that horrendous Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign aimed against Polish citizens. If to them we add the various other deportations, smaller in scale, resulting in the displacement of civilians, prisoners of war, and people arrested for political reasons and detained in the prisons of Eastern Poland, about half of whom were eventually deported to Soviet forced-labor camps, we will arrive at 400 000 to 500 000 as the grand total of those deported using the Soviet documents as our point of departure.
By including voluntary workers, those who fled in June/July 1941, Red Army draftees, and other such categories we arrive at approximately 750 000 to 780 000 as the total number of Polish citizens who found themselves in the Soviet Union during the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland. Earlier estimates of well-known historians provide figures ranging from 1.2 to 1.7 million (including 385 000 children).
Ethnic Poles, an overall minority in Eastern Poland, constituted the majority of those deported, but no social category or Polish minority group was spared. The social categories included workers, artisans, peasants, foresters, soldiers, judges, clergy, professors, scientists, attorneys, engineers and teachers. But anyone listed in the index of "anti-Soviet elements" could have been deported and many were.
The minority groups included: Jews, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Lithuanians, and other Polish citizens. As can be seen, among these masses were the "oppressed minorities" that Stalin came to rescue from "Polish oppression" - his official excuse for the invasion of Poland. The Soviet line, that at least they were saved and spared the horrors of war, rings hollow in light of places like Katyn, the conditions obtaining in the sprawling network of various Soviet detention camps, and the conditions of life in the Gulag where they suffered untold misery and where so many of them perished in circumstances defying description.
Political prisoners kept in Eastern Poland constituted yet another category of deportees. Thousands of such prisoners perished in the course of the Soviet occupation and, according to Soviet documents, at least 10 000 were slaughtered in local jails on the eve of the German invasion of the Soviet Union. Those who were not killed, and they numbered into the thousands as well, were evacuated with the retreating Red Army - many of them were executed later
The destination of the exiled Polish citizens was the northern, central and eastern regions of the Soviet Union - the area between the Arctic Circle in the north and the Mongolian border in the south - Arkhangelsk, Komi and Kolyma regions, Siberia, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. Some ended up in prisons or in penal, POW, "special", concentration, or forced-labor camps; others were dumped into remote settlements; and still other wound up in kolkhozes (Soviet collective farms). They lived, or rather suffered, in 2800 locations in 56 Russian oblasti (districts). Their fate was the same wherever they were sent: slave labor in exchange for the barest necessities of life. And they died by the thousands, perhaps by tens of thousands of cold, hunger and disease


Paul

At 02:09 05/05/2003 +1000, you wrote:

Hi Barbara

I agree with your point on the LA Times transcript, though some other US newspapers (like the much smaller El Paso Texas paper and Time magazine) did report the cause of the refugees as the Soviet deportations. 

On the numbers, I am not trying to make them smaller than they were.  I am simply trying to say that if 1.7 million Polish citizens were "held captive" by the Soviet Union - including prisoners of war, arrested, resettled internally and deported -the number that were "deported" has to be smaller than that.  Have I got that right?

Won't using big numbers in an incorrect way lead to credibility problems down the road?  The debates with the much smaller "official" figures from the IPN (Polish Institute of National Remembrance) are already an example of that. 

Can anybody remind us of the sources of the 1.7 million number (I believe it was the Polish Government-in-Exile) and any breakdown of that number?  It would be good if this group had a definitive story to tell on the "numbers".

Stefan Wisniowski

...As for quoting a number, the 1.7 million is the number I have always heard, so it sounds good to me.  I feel that an exact number like that is much more foreceful that a vague "about a million".  Big numbers will stick in the mind -- I bet everybody knows the 6 million dead of the Holocaust.  A vague, and therefore easily contestable figure, would not have the same effect.

En réponse à Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>:



Yes Stefan, of course you are right about the numbers of actual deported being
smaller than 1.7 million.  I don't in fact know where this number comes from --
  the exile government had it's own sources.  I guess the problem is that we
will never know the' exact numbers -- there will never be access to records,
and I don't know whether the Soviet government was as accurate in its record
keeping as it could have been.  After all, they grabbed whole families, with
people dying on the way -- how would their numbers have been counted?
Perhaps the most accurate numbers would be of those who managed to leave after
the "amnesty", but of course that doesn't include all those who had to stay
behind.
I am also a bit doubtful about numbers of the current Polish government.
Archives were certainly lost during the war and subsequent border movements.
Was everyone deported considered to be a Polish citizen if they were taken
from disputed areas?

Barbara Davoust
> Hi Barbara
>
>.
>
> On the numbers, I am not trying to make them smaller than they were.  I
> am
> simply trying to say that if 1.7 million Polish citizens were "held
> captive"
> by the Soviet Union - including prisoners of war, arrested, resettled
> internally and deported -the number that were "deported" has to be
> smaller
> than that.  Have I got that right?
>
> Won't using big numbers in an incorrect way lead to credibility
> problems
> down the road?  The debates with the much smaller "official" figures
> from
> the IPN (Polish Institute of National Remembrance) are already an
> example of
> that.
>
> Can anybody remind us of the sources of the 1.7 million number (I
> believe it
> was the Polish Government-in-Exile) and any breakdown of that number?
> It
> would be good if this group had a definitive story to tell on the
> "numbers".
>
> Stefan Wisniowski
>
> ...As for quoting a number, the 1.7 million is the number I have
> always
> heard, so it sounds good to me.  I feel that an exact number like that
> is
> much more foreceful that a vague "about a million".  Big numbers will
> stick
> in the mind -- I bet everybody knows the 6 million dead of the
> Holocaust.  A
> vague, and therefore easily contestable figure, would not have the
> same
> effect.
>
>
>

From: "John Mahoney" <mahoneys@...>
Does anyone know if the Ukrainian village of Holoskowice was changed to Goloskovista after the war? Could it be called something else? My Dad said the post office was in Ponikowitsa,...

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian S. Plowy [mailto:julian_plowy@...]
Sent: May 5, 2003 1:06 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

Mark,

 

Thank you for this information. Is  there a source that I can ask you to give me regarding where I can get a copy of the records of the rail workers  running tally. I would like that information for my CD. This will help back up the numbers that I present. If you can give me anything  that I can access it would be helpful.

 

Than you

 

Julek Plowy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: LAURA WOLSKI [mailto:MLWOL@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:07 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

 

Hi all,

 

I agree that tryng to ascertain the accuracy of figures can prove daunting due to doubts about the accuracy (let alone the integrity) of Soviet statistic compilation. Amost every book, article or source I read gives me a different figure. There is one source, however, that I do trust and which I accept as possibly the closest to the truth - and that is from the Polish railwaymen's themselves.

 

The railworkers kept a close running tally of how many trains left from Poland eastwards. They counted an average of 50/70 people per carriage and noted how many carriages there were per train. In February 1940 125 trains left with an average of 2000 people per train. This makes for a figure of 250,000. The total count over the four mass deportations equalled about 1.75 million. Add other smaller deportations and I think that the round figure of 2 million cannot be discounted as exaggeration or fanciful. Certainly 1 million would appear to be quite low.

 

In several books I have read including Klaus Hergt's 'Exiled to Siberia', survivors recollect about 70 people in their carriage. my mother said that there were about 60 in hers. Some even state as high as 90.

 

Regards,

 

MARK WOLSKI          

 

----------
From: Tomasz Wiśniewski <tomy@...>
Reply-To: Tomasz Wiśniewski <tomy@...>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:08:43 +0200
To: "Stefan Wisniowski" <swisniowski@...>
Subject: Re: Kresy-Siberia

Something about me
What is important - just used it
Tomek Wisniewski

Tomasz WiÅ›niewski  born  19.03.1958
citizenship: Polish    Ul. Szarych Szeregów 14/13
15-666 BiaÅ‚ystok     e-mail: tomy@...
phone: +48 85 66 34 694    mobile: +48 507 181 939

I born in Olsztyn (Poland). Earned Master Degree in literature from the WARSAW University in 1981.
During martial law in Poland I was arrested in imprisoned (8,5 months) for taking part in the Solidarity movement.

Skills:
-Preparing and editing of the bulletins (quarterly) of Bialystoker Historical Society.
-Editor of magazine in Morning Courier (Kurier Poranny); dailly paper in Bialystok
-local historian and advanced researcher

Foreign Languages:
-Good command in English
-Fluent in Polish (native language)
-Good command of Russian
-Partly Hebrew

Courses:
-Broadcast Journalism by Orkla Media in 1996
-Editorial courses by Orkla Media (constantly each year)

Work experience:
- From 1.02.1990 to 31.05.2003 journalist of the daily Morning Courier (Bialystok). An editor responsible for the Friday magazine edition since 1995 till 2003.
- From May 1988 till 31.01.1990  editor of local historical quarterly “Bialostoczyznaâ€� (by Bialystoker Scientific Society)
- Author of many articles published in local and other polish newspapers
- Author of books (Zamenhof 1985; Bialystok on old postcards 1990, Synagogues and Jewish Communities in Bialystok region 1992; Jewish Bialystok and surroundings 1999. The last one was published in USA and there was also review on entirely column in New York Times.)
- Awards from Israel Embassy 1997 for the cultural protection of the Jewish remnants in Bialystok region.
- Awards for the reportage from Rzeczpospolita

I am looking for Jozef Raczycki. He was brother of my mother (born in Ignalina - Ignalino in Swięciany province, Vilna voivodship) and missed during the war. All members of my family were searching fr him - no results. But we heard some infos that he survived, lived and died in Canada. That's all what we know.
Tomy

Thanks Barbara for the train data and the reminder that we have Magdalena
Maciejowska's thesis on our website.

In the past day some fantastic contributions by members have certainly
highlighted the wide range of numbers in the estimates.  Again, let me
emphasise that my purpose is not to minimise the numbers, but to ensure that
our efforts have maximum credibility.

It turns out that Section 3 Part 3 of Magdalena's thesis, which is posted in
the files section of the Kresy-Siberia group, is all about the various
conflicting calculations of the numbers of deported in the 4 mass
deportations.
http://a4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QFK2Pm9XGESj6uj5Urd3wGLdCuVctWSA-D-5SHjECCap7EW
cWtTquvEz-XpcNNYIBRnu-IsgKxD_FEwV/DEPORTACJE_LUDNOSCI_POLSKIEJ/Rozdzial%20II
I.doc
or go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/files/DEPORTACJE_LUDNOSCI_POLSKI
EJ/ and follow the menus

According to Magdalena, recent Polish researchers have determined that the
total deported in the 4 mass waves of 1940-41 was about 330-350 thousand
(not counting the hundreds of thousands of prisoners of war, arrested or
executed "enemies of the people", voluntary refugees, and "internal"
resettlements of any Poles already living in the USSR).  These numbers are
based on multiple sources, but it is interesting that the railway data
Barbara attached in her last message shows an average of 27 people per wagon
versus the 50-70 mentioned in Julek's e-mail.  This factor alone would
account for much of the difference in estimated totals.

Magdalena explicitly recognises that the reduction in estimates of the Poles
deported could be a very sensitive issue.  This part of her research will
clearly be a valuable text to post in our files when it is translated into
English.

Stefan Wisniowski

After some interesting investigations of this elusive 1988 TV series, I have
managed to reach the London-based scriptwriter of  "Struggles for Poland"
himself!

Now I have a request - can one of our London friends please call the
production company and ask about availability of the series, and/or ask for
permission to distribute the films within our group for research purposes?

I will pass the private telephone numbers directly to the person who
volunteers.

Thanks
Stefan Wisniowski

----------

> >
> dear mr wisniowski;
>
> your email only just reached me. i do have a set of video cassettes of
> "struggles for poland" in my house. ...

> The production company was David Naden Associates, .....

> Hope this helps.
> yours, Neal Ascherson.
>

Stefan,

Re. Struggles for Poland

The producer's name is Martin Smith.
Our family friend (Aleksandra Jarmulska) was interviewed for the series.
She told me how Martin Smith was deeply touched by positive feedback about
the series.
The writer of the book of the series by the same name, (and consultant to
the series) was Neal Ascherson. He used to work at the Independent on Sunday
Newspaper in London. It was several years ago since I contacted him.

Our friend Aleksandra showed me the artist impression of their labour camp
in Russia. You can see the pciture and her talking about it in the series
(can't recall which episode). When I saw this original sketch, I video-taped
every inch of it. My father remembered that the artist had left out a bridge
which my grandfather had built. Amazing how memories remain in tact and a
chance meeting can bring out those memories and detail.

Hope this helps a little.

Edward Dabrowski



----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Wisniowski" <swisniowski@...>
To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:50 PM
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] FW: struggles for poland


After some interesting investigations of this elusive 1988 TV series, I have
managed to reach the London-based scriptwriter of  "Struggles for Poland"
himself!

Now I have a request - can one of our London friends please call the
production company and ask about availability of the series, and/or ask for
permission to distribute the films within our group for research purposes?

I will pass the private telephone numbers directly to the person who
volunteers.

Thanks
Stefan Wisniowski

----------

> >
> dear mr wisniowski;
>
> your email only just reached me. i do have a set of video cassettes of
> "struggles for poland" in my house. ...

> The production company was David Naden Associates, .....

> Hope this helps.
> yours, Neal Ascherson.
>



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I can do it. I will be with Steven on the 8th, leaving for London on the
12th.
John Roy-Wojciechowski
Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
e-mail polish@...  website www.polishheritage.co.nz

Hi Barbara!  It's Gancarz, isn't it?  The following will likely be redundant
then, yes?
The Village of Holoskowice remains, pretty much as it was in 1940.  I was
able to recognize things in the village as described to me by my aunt.  I
visited there in 2000. My father was born there; shipped to Archangelsk;
Oodshorn, then Tengeru, then Canada in 1949.  The village is about a 10
minute drive from Brody where I enjoyed one of the best fish dinners (from
the Bug) ever!... marinated in garlic; melted in the mouth!  The region is
rich with beautiful thick black soil.  Low lying flat land, with rivulets of
water everywhere.  A massive abandoned collective farm outside the village;
a remnant of the Soviet era.  Broken down farm equipment everywhere.  Tho
many in the village have cars, one still sees many others traveling by
straw-filled carts, pulled by horse, wheels old auto wheels.  I know the
Ukrainian name; just have to locate it buried somewhere in my files.  Right
now is not a good time for me to dig due to some pressing work
responsibilities, but I will make a note to get round to it in a few weeks.
pls. accept my apologies for this delay...  My father's family was Bajorek.
The name you have for the village is not quite right... close, i believe...
will get back to you soon... Helen Bajorek MacDonald

   Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:08:00 -0400
    From: "John Mahoney" <mahoneys@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Welcome Janine Rachwal

Does anyone know if the Ukrainian village of Holoskowice was changed to
Goloskovista after the war? Could it be called something else? My Dad said
the post office was in Ponikowitsa, and I found this on
www.calle.com/world/ukraine/index.html
   It showed villages near by , but no Holoskowice? This was near Brody.

----- Original Message -----

From: Julian S. Plowy

To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:08 PM

Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Welcome Tomasz Wisniewski

Tomek,

 

Welcome to the group. I understand that you have a number of Photos that you would be willing to share with the group. I would be willing to scan all your photos and return your originals to you with a CD of the scanned photos for safe keeping for yourself. I would then submit your photos to our site so that all could share your treasure.

 

If some damage to your photos occurred during your travels they will be corrected where possible and that will show up on the CD. No change would be done to your originals all work is done on the copies in the computer. If you already have the photos scanned please send me a CD and I will then work from there.

 

Tomek, if you send me your address, I will send you a CD of photos plus information that I have at the present time and I will continue to send you future updates.

 

Again WELCOME to our group and thank you for your contribution.

 

Regards,

 

Julek Plowy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Wisniowski [mailto:swisniowski@...]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:11 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Welcome Tomasz Wisniewski

 

Please welcome Tomasz Wisniewski to the group.  Tomasz brings not only a bilingual introduction, but clearly a wealth of skills to the group.

Tomek, I hope that you can scan your photos so that we can place them on our website (Julek can you help here please?)

Can anybody help with possible information or suggestions for researching the fate of Tomy's uncle, Jozef Raczycki, who disappeared from eastern Poland during the war?  Linder, can you ask Margaret if there are any records at the Ministry of defence of his having served with Anders Army (a likely route if he really did get to Canada).  Irene can you please check the records at the Hoover Institution?

Thanks to all

Stefan Wisniowski

----------
From: Tomasz Wiśniewski <tomy@...>
Reply-To: Tomasz Wiśniewski <tomy@...>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:08:43 +0200
To: "Stefan Wisniowski" <swisniowski@...>
Subject: Re: Kresy-Siberia

Something about me
What is important - just used it
Tomek Wisniewski

Tomasz WiÅ›niewski  born  19.03.1958
citizenship: Polish    Ul. Szarych Szeregów 14/13
15-666 BiaÅ‚ystok     e-mail: tomy@...
phone: +48 85 66 34 694    mobile: +48 507 181 939

I born in Olsztyn (Poland). Earned Master Degree in literature from the WARSAW University in 1981.
During martial law in Poland I was arrested in imprisoned (8,5 months) for taking part in the Solidarity movement.

Skills:
-Preparing and editing of the bulletins (quarterly) of Bialystoker Historical Society.
-Editor of magazine in Morning Courier (Kurier Poranny); dailly paper in Bialystok
-local historian and advanced researcher

Foreign Languages:
-Good command in English
-Fluent in Polish (native language)
-Good command of Russian
-Partly Hebrew

Courses:
-Broadcast Journalism by Orkla Media in 1996
-Editorial courses by Orkla Media (constantly each year)

Work experience:
- From 1.02.1990 to 31.05.2003 journalist of the daily Morning Courier (Bialystok). An editor responsible for the Friday magazine edition since 1995 till 2003.
- From May 1988 till 31.01.1990  editor of local historical quarterly “Bialostoczyznaâ€� (by Bialystoker Scientific Society)
- Author of many articles published in local and other polish newspapers
- Author of books (Zamenhof 1985; Bialystok on old postcards 1990, Synagogues and Jewish Communities in Bialystok region 1992; Jewish Bialystok and surroundings 1999. The last one was published in USA and there was also review on entirely column in New York Times.)
- Awards from Israel Embassy 1997 for the cultural protection of the Jewish remnants in Bialystok region.
- Awards for the reportage from Rzeczpospolita

I am looking for Jozef Raczycki. He was brother of my mother (born in Ignalina - Ignalino in Swięciany province, Vilna voivodship) and missed during the war. All members of my family were searching fr him - no results. But we heard some infos that he survived, lived and died in Canada. That's all what we know.
Tomy

 

From: Tomasz Wiśniewski <tomy@...>
Reply-To: Tomasz Wiśniewski <tomy@...>
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:45:32 +0200
To: "Stefan Wisniowski" <swisniowski@...>


Nazywam sie Tomasz Wisniewski, ur. sie w 1958 roku w Polsce, w Olsztynie
Moja mama urodzila sie w Ignalinie (kolo Swiecian, przedwojenne woj
wilenskie) dzis Litwa

Moja mama Teresa Wisniewska z domu Raczycka urodzila sie w Ignalinie 20 III
1932 r.

Jej mama Jadwiga Raczycka z domu Frunska ur. 1900
Jej ojciec Boleslaw Raczycki ur 1900

Moja mama Teresa Wisniewska miala nastepujace rodzenstwo
Czeslaw ur 1925
Jadwiga ur 1927
Józef ur 1928
Stefan ur 1930
Wanda 1939
Regina 1945

Rodzina zostala przesiedlona do Polski w 1946 roku

Otoz wszyscy nie wiedza co sie stalo z Józefem Raczyckim (zaginal w czasie
wojny), czy byl deportowany, aresztowany, czy zostal wywieziony na Syberie.
Jedna z hipotez mowi, ze Jozef przezyl, wyemigrowal do Kanady i tam przed
kilku laty zmarl. Nie udalo nam sie jednak nigdy zweryfikowac tej wiadomosci

Serdecznie Pozdrawiam
Tomasz Wisniewski

p.s. w swoich zbiorach posiadam bardzo wiele zdjec (oryginalnych) pokazujacych przesiedlenia ludnosci polskiej. Moge wyslac skany aby wstawic na wasza strone
T

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*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
*  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
*  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: barbara kwietniowski

To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:35 PM

Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

The thesis by Magdalena Maciejowska, which is posted in the files section of the Kresy-Siberia group, has a table indicating some of the population data from train stations, in Section 3 Part 3 .  I am attaching it as a file.  Some months ago, I asked Magdalena  whether the source she quoted, had further tables and she replied that it did.  I have not pursued obtaining a copy since I do not have access to Polish sources but perhaps someone else does. If you wish to pursue it I am sure she could provide you with more details as to the source. The translation to English for some of Section 3 is posted and I have a partial translation of Section 3 Part 3 underway.  If you would like a copy let me know.

Barb Kwietniowski

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian S. Plowy [mailto:julian_plowy@...]
Sent: May 5, 2003 1:06 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

Mark,

 

Thank you for this information. Is  there a source that I can ask you to give me regarding where I can get a copy of the records of the rail workers  running tally. I would like that information for my CD. This will help back up the numbers that I present. If you can give me anything  that I can access it would be helpful.

 

Than you

 

Julek Plowy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: LAURA WOLSKI [mailto:MLWOL@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:07 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

 

Hi all,

 

I agree that tryng to ascertain the accuracy of figures can prove daunting due to doubts about the accuracy (let alone the integrity) of Soviet statistic compilation. Amost every book, article or source I read gives me a different figure. There is one source, however, that I do trust and which I accept as possibly the closest to the truth - and that is from the Polish railwaymen's themselves.

 

The railworkers kept a close running tally of how many trains left from Poland eastwards. They counted an average of 50/70 people per carriage and noted how many carriages there were per train. In February 1940 125 trains left with an average of 2000 people per train. This makes for a figure of 250,000. The total count over the four mass deportations equalled about 1.75 million. Add other smaller deportations and I think that the round figure of 2 million cannot be discounted as exaggeration or fanciful. Certainly 1 million would appear to be quite low.

 

In several books I have read including Klaus Hergt's 'Exiled to Siberia', survivors recollect about 70 people in their carriage. my mother said that there were about 60 in hers. Some even state as high as 90.

 

Regards,

 

MARK WOLSKI          

 

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Hi Dianne,
         Thanks for this!

It looks like my letter, and the other letters to the Sunday Telegraph
were not published on Sunday!

Not to worry, we must keep trying!

Best regards

George



>
> Hi George,
>
> A wonderful letter you've put together there. Lets hope many more of us flo=
> od the Telegraph with these sentiments.
>
> Dianne


--
George Neisser BSc, PhD           Email: George.Neisser@...
Manchester Computing              Tel:   +44 (0) 161 275 6008
University of Manchester          Fax:   +44 (0) 161 275 6040
Manchester UK M13 9PL

Hi Barbara,

 

I'd be interested to know more about these transports, because they cover the Polesie region from where the Szulakowscy were deported. Mikaszewicze was their departure point. I'm just wondering if each transport record has the family names listed. If you could supply me with additional info, then I'd be very grateful.

 

Thanks for this,

Halina

 

----- Original Message -----

From: barbara kwietniowski

To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:35 PM

Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

The thesis by Magdalena Maciejowska, which is posted in the files section of the Kresy-Siberia group, has a table indicating some of the population data from train stations, in Section 3 Part 3 .  I am attaching it as a file.  Some months ago, I asked Magdalena  whether the source she quoted, had further tables and she replied that it did.  I have not pursued obtaining a copy since I do not have access to Polish sources but perhaps someone else does. If you wish to pursue it I am sure she could provide you with more details as to the source. The translation to English for some of Section 3 is posted and I have a partial translation of Section 3 Part 3 underway.  If you would like a copy let me know.

Barb Kwietniowski

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian S. Plowy [mailto:julian_plowy@...]
Sent: May 5, 2003 1:06 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

Mark,

 

Thank you for this information. Is  there a source that I can ask you to give me regarding where I can get a copy of the records of the rail workers  running tally. I would like that information for my CD. This will help back up the numbers that I present. If you can give me anything  that I can access it would be helpful.

 

Than you

 

Julek Plowy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: LAURA WOLSKI [mailto:MLWOL@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:07 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

 

Hi all,

 

I agree that tryng to ascertain the accuracy of figures can prove daunting due to doubts about the accuracy (let alone the integrity) of Soviet statistic compilation. Amost every book, article or source I read gives me a different figure. There is one source, however, that I do trust and which I accept as possibly the closest to the truth - and that is from the Polish railwaymen's themselves.

 

The railworkers kept a close running tally of how many trains left from Poland eastwards. They counted an average of 50/70 people per carriage and noted how many carriages there were per train. In February 1940 125 trains left with an average of 2000 people per train. This makes for a figure of 250,000. The total count over the four mass deportations equalled about 1.75 million. Add other smaller deportations and I think that the round figure of 2 million cannot be discounted as exaggeration or fanciful. Certainly 1 million would appear to be quite low.

 

In several books I have read including Klaus Hergt's 'Exiled to Siberia', survivors recollect about 70 people in their carriage. my mother said that there were about 60 in hers. Some even state as high as 90.

 

Regards,

 

MARK WOLSKI          

 

***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
*  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
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***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
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----- Original Message -----

From: barbara kwietniowski

To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:45 PM

Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

Halina,

This is all I have available at the moment.  Here is what Magdalena wrote to me yesterday about the source:

"Liczebnosc deportowanych to niezwykle trudna sprawa. Ja w mojej pracy

zamiescilam fragment tabeli o wyjazdach transportow. Cytowalam to za ksiazka "Deportacje Polaków z pólnocno-wschodnich ziem II RP 1940-41, Warszawa 2001, s. 179-181. Ksiazke te mialam pozyczona z Biblioteki Jagiellonskiej w Krakowie. W tym momencie nie mam dostepu do tej biblioteki. Wiecej informacji o tej ksiazce w katalogu biblioteki www.bj.uj.edu.pl ja w tej chwili nie moge dostac sie do tego katalogu bo chwilowo serwer nie dziala.Jak tylko zdobede wiecej informacji to dam znac..."

A fast scan on my part of a few Polish bookstores on-line didn't show up any results.  As you can see this is a new book as far as this topic is concerned. We will continue to try the site to see what else we can obtain.

Barb Kwietniowski

[barbara kwietniowski]  -----Original Message-----
From: Halina Szulakowska [mailto:halina_szulakowska@...]
Sent: May 6, 2003 4:43 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

Hi Barbara,

 

I'd be interested to know more about these transports, because they cover the Polesie region from where the Szulakowscy were deported. Mikaszewicze was their departure point. I'm just wondering if each transport record has the family names listed. If you could supply me with additional info, then I'd be very grateful.

 

Thanks for this,

Halina

 

----- Original Message -----

From: barbara kwietniowski

To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:35 PM

Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

The thesis by Magdalena Maciejowska, which is posted in the files section of the Kresy-Siberia group, has a table indicating some of the population data from train stations, in Section 3 Part 3 .  I am attaching it as a file.  Some months ago, I asked Magdalena  whether the source she quoted, had further tables and she replied that it did.  I have not pursued obtaining a copy since I do not have access to Polish sources but perhaps someone else does. If you wish to pursue it I am sure she could provide you with more details as to the source. The translation to English for some of Section 3 is posted and I have a partial translation of Section 3 Part 3 underway.  If you would like a copy let me know.

Barb Kwietniowski

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian S. Plowy [mailto:julian_plowy@...]
Sent: May 5, 2003 1:06 AM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

Mark,

 

Thank you for this information. Is  there a source that I can ask you to give me regarding where I can get a copy of the records of the rail workers  running tally. I would like that information for my CD. This will help back up the numbers that I present. If you can give me anything  that I can access it would be helpful.

 

Than you

 

Julek Plowy

 

-----Original Message-----
From: LAURA WOLSKI [mailto:MLWOL@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:07 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Letter to The Sunday Telegraph-deportation count

 

Hi all,

 

I agree that tryng to ascertain the accuracy of figures can prove daunting due to doubts about the accuracy (let alone the integrity) of Soviet statistic compilation. Amost every book, article or source I read gives me a different figure. There is one source, however, that I do trust and which I accept as possibly the closest to the truth - and that is from the Polish railwaymen's themselves.

 

The railworkers kept a close running tally of how many trains left from Poland eastwards. They counted an average of 50/70 people per carriage and noted how many carriages there were per train. In February 1940 125 trains left with an average of 2000 people per train. This makes for a figure of 250,000. The total count over the four mass deportations equalled about 1.75 million. Add other smaller deportations and I think that the round figure of 2 million cannot be discounted as exaggeration or fanciful. Certainly 1 million would appear to be quite low.

 

In several books I have read including Klaus Hergt's 'Exiled to Siberia', survivors recollect about 70 people in their carriage. my mother said that there were about 60 in hers. Some even state as high as 90.

 

Regards,

 

MARK WOLSKI          

 

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*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
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***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
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***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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***************************************************************************

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---
From: Barbara Charuba <baska@...>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:55:38 -0400
To:
"'Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com'"<Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Picture of Poles in Poldniewica and Struggles for Poland

I have uploaded the picture to my file in the Photos section of the
Kresy-Siberia site.  When I click on the following link, and then sign into
Yahoo, it immediately takes me to the photo.
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/kresy-siberia/lst?.dir=/Members/Cha
ruba%3b+Barb&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/

In the worst case, one can just navigate there after signing in and going
to the Kresy-Siberia site.

----- Original Message -----

From: H. MacDonald

To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:45 PM

Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Digest Number 577

Hi Barbara!  It's Gancarz, isn't it?  The following will likely be redundant
then, yes?
The Village of Holoskowice remains, pretty much as it was in 1940.  I was
able to recognize things in the village as described to me by my aunt.  I
visited there in 2000. My father was born there; shipped to Archangelsk;
Oodshorn, then Tengeru, then Canada in 1949.  The village is about a 10
minute drive from Brody where I enjoyed one of the best fish dinners (from
the Bug) ever!... marinated in garlic; melted in the mouth!  The region is
rich with beautiful thick black soil.  Low lying flat land, with rivulets of
water everywhere.  A massive abandoned collective farm outside the village;
a remnant of the Soviet era.  Broken down farm equipment everywhere.  Tho
many in the village have cars, one still sees many others traveling by
straw-filled carts, pulled by horse, wheels old auto wheels.  I know the
Ukrainian name; just have to locate it buried somewhere in my files.  Right
now is not a good time for me to dig due to some pressing work
responsibilities, but I will make a note to get round to it in a few weeks.
pls. accept my apologies for this delay...  My father's family was Bajorek.
The name you have for the village is not quite right... close, i believe...
will get back to you soon... Helen Bajorek MacDonald

  Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:08:00 -0400
   From: "John Mahoney" <mahoneys@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Welcome Janine Rachwal

Does anyone know if the Ukrainian village of Holoskowice was changed to
Goloskovista after the war? Could it be called something else? My Dad said
the post office was in Ponikowitsa, and I found this on
www.calle.com/world/ukraine/index.html
  It showed villages near by , but no Holoskowice? This was near Brody.




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*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
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From: "Tadeusz" <vk3ux@...>
Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:13:37 +1000
To: <Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Document
 
HOW MANY DEPORTED? HOW MANY SURVIVED?

The condensed version of the document.
Translated from Polish.

In reference to the number of Polish citizens that were deported to USSR, I have in my possession an interesting  and little known document printed by the "Przekroj" publication in Poland, (No: 2390, 14.04.1991)
 
The report was compiled  by the Intelligence Branch of  ZWZ (Zwiazek Walki Zbrojnej, Armia Krajowa)  According to the authors of the published document, it is the first of such reports compiled prior to the lists submitted by the Polish Embassy in Moscow in 1941-1943, those lists were prepared by Gen. Anders Army. Later they were revised and supplemented in Italy and Great Britain.

The present day researchers using various estimating criteria agree, that between September 1939 to June 1941, the Soviets deported about 1 million five hundred Polish people which represented 8% of population of the territory occupied by the Soviets. The deportees were represented by 52% Polish, 22% Jewish, the rest being Ukrainians, Bialorussians, Lithuanians, and Russians. Adding 192,000 interned prisoners of war that were enlisted in the Red Army in spring 1940. (150,000.) and further 100,000 after the German attack on Soviet Union.
Professor Wladyslaw Wielhorski estimates that the total number of deportees to the Soviet Union was 1,492.000.
Dr. Bronislaw Kusmierz estimates a total figure at 1,634.000.
The National Assembly Executive estimates, that between Autumn of 1939 to Autumn of 1942, 415.000 people dyed or perished due to illness hunger and cold.

The first wave of deportation: At night, 10-11 February, 1940.
            About 250.000 people out of which 100.000 were children.
            ZWZ Intelligence estimates that between 11-16 February a total of 80 trains left Poland in eastern direction.  
            Destination: Archangel (Archangels) Autonomous Republic of Koma, Swierdlowsk, Omsk, Nowosybirsk, Irkuck.   
         
The second wave of deportation: At night, 13-14 April 1940.
            About 300.000 people mainly Women and children.
             Destination: Kazachstan, Achciubinsk, Kustanaj, Petropawlosk, Semipalatinsk.

Third wave of deportation: 20-30 June 1940.
              Over 10 days and nights the Soviets deported about 400,000 people including about 50.000 Jews (Polish citizens)
              Destination: The autonomous Republic of Marijskiej, Mordowskiej, Tatarskiej, about 10% to northern Ural, Rep.Komi.
              
According to ZWZ Intelligence, by the end of 1940, Soviets deported:
                               February,                   250.000
                               April,                         300.000
                               June,                         400.000
                              Prisoners of war,          200.000
                              Prisoners, civilians      250.000
                                                                -------------
                                                  Total:    1,400.000

By the gender:          

                                Adult male                 650.000        
                                Adult female              450.000
                                Children up to 15y      300.000


Source: PRZEKROJ No: 2390. 14.04.1991. "ILU ZESLANO? ILU PRZETRWALO?  ZWZ Report           

Hello my friends...I have finally caught my breath and have a minute
to let you know about my event on sunday, May 4..Trzeci
Maj..Akademia...Film...Sybiraki...the students display !!! I have to
say it was a HUGE success.I arrived at the Polish Legion at 7:00 AM
that's right AM....along with my husband and sons...it took us until
1:00 pm to set up the huge display boards,bulletin boards,the HUGE
screen, hang the students work, my posters of info, the Kresy/Siberia
Memorial Wall of info and names, all my books on the topic,etc.
Thanks to this group I had a lot of information to share.  EVERYONE
was totally impressed.At 3:00 pm we started. I would say that there
were around 200 people ..that included about 30 of the high school
students.  We had a half hour of an "inscenizacja - Trzeci Maj" ie.
little play on the "Constitution" by some of the students from the
Polish School ..elementary..it was excellent..a combo of
speaking..poetry..singing.Then I did a short intro to the
movie...then showed the film...you could hear a pin drop in that huge
hall...I saw many a tear !!!After, I introduced individually the 15
Sybiraki who were there...each one wearing a beautiful boutiniere
(red and white ) that one of my teachers and her students made. To
end on a happy note our song and  dance group "Kujawiacy " performed.
I sing in the adult choir. The local Polish bakery donated
200 "paczki" which we sold with coffee and cold pop...we made $500.00
plus we made $200.00 at the door as "wolne datki" .Soooo we have
$700.00 to donate to the Poles left behind in Russia. Someone please
give me a reputable organization that will give ALL this money to
these people.Anyway...everyone was totally moved!!!! We had about 5
orders for a copy of the film. A couple of new people wanting to join
our wonderful group. AND the biggest surprise was that Stefan"s
brother Jan came all the way from Montreal...he used his camcorder
all afternoon..so maybe he will be able to share some pictures with
you. It was a pleasure to meet him...learn about his and Stefan's
family...share experiences. Last but not least I have to do a little
more bragging ,,sorry... but to my surprise I was presented with
the "Silver" medal given by the Polish Canadian Congress for all my
never ending work in the Polish Community. I was very honored!!!
I think I am finished ...so sorry for the long email but I wanted to
tell you as much as possible about the event !!
Krystyna

From: "zembocin" <krystynafreiburger@...>
...we have $700.00 to donate to the Poles left behind in Russia. Someone please
give me a reputable organization that will give ALL this money to these people.

Krystyna,

Thank you for your report, your work and your dedication to the Polish
People. I am sure you earned the Silver Medal many times over in the past.
If possible I would like to see the video of your presentation. It might
give me some idea on how to do a similar presentation in California.
  In addition could you outline the steps you took leading up to the
presentation and suggestions.
Also, Thank you husband for his help from all of us.

Julek Plowy

  -----Original Message-----
From:  zembocin [mailto:krystynafreiburger@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:51 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Showing of the Forgotten Odyssey

Hello my friends...I have finally caught my breath and have a minute
to let you know about my event on sunday, May 4..Trzeci
Maj..Akademia...Film...Sybiraki...the students display !!! I have to
say it was a HUGE success.I arrived at the Polish Legion at 7:00 AM
that's right AM....along with my husband and sons...it took us until
1:00 pm to set up the huge display boards,bulletin boards,the HUGE
screen, hang the students work, my posters of info, the Kresy/Siberia
Memorial Wall of info and names, all my books on the topic,etc.
Thanks to this group I had a lot of information to share.  EVERYONE
was totally impressed.At 3:00 pm we started. I would say that there
were around 200 people ..that included about 30 of the high school
students.  We had a half hour of an "inscenizacja - Trzeci Maj" ie.
little play on the "Constitution" by some of the students from the
Polish School ..elementary..it was excellent..a combo of
speaking..poetry..singing.Then I did a short intro to the
movie...then showed the film...you could hear a pin drop in that huge
hall...I saw many a tear !!!After, I introduced individually the 15
Sybiraki who were there...each one wearing a beautiful boutiniere
(red and white ) that one of my teachers and her students made. To
end on a happy note our song and  dance group "Kujawiacy " performed.
I sing in the adult choir. The local Polish bakery donated
200 "paczki" which we sold with coffee and cold pop...we made $500.00
plus we made $200.00 at the door as "wolne datki" .Soooo we have
$700.00 to donate to the Poles left behind in Russia. Someone please
give me a reputable organization that will give ALL this money to
these people.Anyway...everyone was totally moved!!!! We had about 5
orders for a copy of the film. A couple of new people wanting to join
our wonderful group. AND the biggest surprise was that Stefan"s
brother Jan came all the way from Montreal...he used his camcorder
all afternoon..so maybe he will be able to share some pictures with
you. It was a pleasure to meet him...learn about his and Stefan's
family...share experiences. Last but not least I have to do a little
more bragging ,,sorry... but to my surprise I was presented with
the "Silver" medal given by the Polish Canadian Congress for all my
never ending work in the Polish Community. I was very honored!!!
I think I am finished ...so sorry for the long email but I wanted to
tell you as much as possible about the event !!
Krystyna



***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
*  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
*  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
**
*  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
*  and your interest in the group to:
*      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
***************************************************************************

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Sirs,

      I wish to unsubscribe to the above group as I
have found a more suitable one for the region in which
I am interested.         Thanking you

              Margaret Dubicki

              E-mail   yenisei44@...

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus
For a better Internet experience
http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer

Please welcome Des Brennan to the group.  Des, you are truly a citizen of
the world!  Please visit the Memorial Wall, if you have not already, to post
your families names in memory of their experiences.
http://www.aforgottenodyssey.com/memorial

Stefan Wisniowski

----------
> From: Desmond William Brennan <dwbrenn@...>
>
> My Polish mother was born in a labour camp in Yurga, Omsk region, Siberia in
> July 1941 to my grandparents, teachers whom the Soviets had grabbed in 1940
> along with their children  from Felsztyn in south-eastern Poland (now Skalivka
> in Ukraine). Until 1939, my grandparents had been teachers in the village of
> Osmolowo, near Nowogrodek.
>
> Dziadzio joined Anders’ Army and brought the family out with him to Iran.
> While he then went west to fight his way through Italy, his family passed
> through several refugee camps in India, before they all met up again in
> England in 1947. My mum grew up there, became a teacher and married an Irish
> colleague - my father.
>
> I went to school  in Ireland, then travelled for some years before returning
> home to do a BA in geography. I then completed a masters in geography at the
> Jagiellonian University, funding myself by teaching English and writing. In
> 1998 I left Poland for Queensland, where I worked in mapping and editing until
> 2000, when I moved to Singapore. There I worked as a newspaper copy editor,
> before moving to Perth last October. I am currently doing a Masters in
> International Relations at Curtin University.

Hi
Can i ask if anyone has tried to search via LDS records ? as i am
wondering if i will find out anything to help me , someone said they
have a Privacy thing that you can only see up to 1887 , can anyone
advise on this
Thanks
Jwinnik