Sylvia, after a lenghty search I, like Pani Czernichowska from Hoover cannot
find anything about Wasilij KRUC/Krac/Kric/Krets/Krec and other alternatives.
The one you refer to in Karta is someone else; also several in Russian lists who
do not match up with Bazili from Lwow area. There is a reference to Zofia Tymryk
in RU list and she was born in 1889 at Malawista, Zerki , Pinsk area. It is such
a pity that we do not have a list of pre-war osadnikow and the names of osads
where they lived.
I am sorry about this, but I'll keep this name before me.
antoni530
UK

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Hello Elzunia,

Here is a copy of my ID, which we, Poles, had to have, as soon as we reached the
age of sixteen.
You'll notice, that my birthday is a year different. This was done by my most
caring Mother, who did not want me to go to Russian school, so she took a year
off my birthday.

We were treated as second class citezens, here in England, just after the WW2.

When I quolified as a design draugthsman, I could not get a job in my field,
because I did not have British citezenship.

It was some years later, in 1966, when I established my own engineering
business, when I took British citezenship.

It is great to see that such attitudes have changed for the better with the
unity of Europe, when Poles are welcome, and appriciated, to work in U.K. and
elsewhere.

Kind regarrds, Witek.
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
MyID.jpg

Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending
or receiving certain types of file attachments.  Check your e-mail security
settings to determine how attachments are handled.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Witold,
in your joining address you mentioned re deportation 'at four o'clock in the
morning on 29th December, 1939'.
I have looked at so many lists of trains that took people out to USSR and I
cannot see any dated for December 1939. The order to organize deportation was
given by Beria on 16th December and some arrests took place then or soon after,
but I am not sure if anyone was actually deported into the depth of Siberia.
There was some evidence that some single prisoners were taken into jails in
Kherson in Ukraine, but these were special cases.
Are you able to describe this deportation in December.

On the subject of location of your family camp at Skorodumskije lesy, near
Irbut, near Sverdlovsk, there is a very flourishing industry set up by an
American company  --called Irbit Motorworks of America, Inc., building world
famous bicycles called ITZ. They are a speciality bicycle/tricycle of a high
standard and are distributed worldwide. Specialist cyklers gather there for
yearly event; similar events to those in USA for Harley Davidson enthiusiasts.
In the town there is a very special International Museum of Fine Arts.
antoni530

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Has any one followed any of this group?

http://www.moldova.org/pipermail/foundation-news_moldova.org/2007-
July/000074.html

Thanks, Carol

I wanted to share this artical with the group. It looks at both sides
with Poland & Ukraine. Quoted at the end,"For our history is not just
the past but the beginning of a dialog about the future." If you want
the full link just let me know. Thanks, Carol Celinski Dove


   Historical tragedies never disappear and are never forgotten. The
terrible interethnic conflict between Ukrainians and Poles in Volyn,
which claimed tens of thousands of human lives in 1943-1944 on two
warring sides, was hushed up in this country for decades: even in the
already independent 1990s, this subject seemed to be taboo.

It is the extreme zeal with which the Polish side brought the bloody
Volyn events into focus that forced (alas, this is the right word)
our leadership to more or less adequately react to this in the year
2003. All of us, Ukrainians and Poles alike, cannot possibly escape
from the following series of extremely difficult questions that arise
over the tragedy of sixty years ago.


LEONID KRAVCHUK LISTENS AS DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO (RIGHT) EXPLAINS
Photo by Mykola LAZARENKO, The Day


Who exactly is to bear historical responsibility for a mass massacre
of people? What are the historical roots of the tragedy? Who should
apologize? What should the further course of Ukrainian-Polish
relations be if historical truth is not to fall victim to cheap
political expediency?

The Day's round table on the Volyn events was special in that the
answer to these (and many other) questions was sought by people well
known throughout Ukraine, individuals whose rich lifetime experience
allows them to see the terrible events of the past through the most
valuable prism, that of their own deeply personal and inimitable
perception.

The interviewees are people born and raised in that long-suffering
land, members of the Volyn fraternity, first President of Ukraine
Leonid Kruchuk, People's Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola
Zhulynsky, Serhiy Shevchuk, Lieutenant General Oleksandr Skipalsky,
along with former ambassador of Ukraine to Poland and great poet
Dmytro Pavlychko.



Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, The Day:

Larysa IVSHYNA: "Honorable Mr. President, gentlemen, I am pleased
that you found time for this interview because it is important for
us, members of the great Volyn fraternity, to discuss this matter. On
the other hand, you have all held important offices and saw these
problems at the governmental level.
It is important to discuss this precisely from such point of view,
not just because of a personal pain. Yet, we would like our
conversation to focus on two points.

First, your personal and your families' reminiscences of the 1943-
1944 tragic events in Volyn. Each of you has heard of and knows about
those events from your near and dear ones.

Second, the way we must handle this history at the governmental level
in order to build relations with our neighbors into compliance with
the challenges of today. And one more, rather debatable, point. I
know the way all those present here react to somebody saying that
Ukraine is 'under protection' and needs 'advocates.'

This was our good will to some extent: yes, we do need support, help,
and a kind of new paternalism. But it seems to me this period is
somewhat overdue.

This in turn raises new points for discussion: the number
of 'advocates,' the current condition of the state, and our new
appraisal of ourselves; the line of behavior we would like to suggest
to the Ukrainian elite or, if I may put it like this, what can
eventually become the elite. These are essentially the three points I
suggest. And, as Mr. Kravchuk holds quite a few offices in
parliament, is a people's deputy and fraction leader, The Day still
considers him, above all, the first President, and I want Mr.
Kravchuk to begin the discussion."

UKRAINIANS UNDER THE POLES



Leonid KRAVCHUK: "The history of a nation consists of many factors,
including its own history and the events imposed from the outside.
Yet, the behavior of a people is always adequate to its strength,
willpower, and capabilities. This is only natural. The history of
every human being is part of the history of a nation and a state. So
the behavior is not always adequate, for it depends, first of all, on
each specific person.
"I was born in the Rivne region and remember well the times when we
lived, as we said, 'under the Poles.' Although I was a little boy, I
could see what Jozef Pilsudski's policies were like. Our village was
literally divided into two parts. One of them - the best lands, sort
of gentry estates (folwarks) - belonged to Polish colonist landlords,
while my parents owned just one and a half hectares, a very small
land plot by the standards of those times. After quickly doing
everything on their own farmstead, my parents would go together with
the children to work for the landlord.

I was then four or five years old, but I remember very well my mom
and dad say, 'Never raise your hand. Don't pick cherries because the
landlady will go wild over this.' Indeed, this was severely punished.
And, as I recall, I was dying for a cherry or two! And this parental
caution still lingers in my mind. I will never forget, either, that
they called us by no other terms than louts (khamy) and cattle
(bydlo). This was absolutely normal, and our people even referred to
themselves this way. That was our philosophy of life.

"When I look back on what I saw, I say it was sheer occupation. We
have to call a spade a spade. For some want to present that situation
as something accidental, as a return to some truth, to a better
life... No, that was occupation, captivity, and absolute contempt for
the Ukrainians. When what we called the reunification occurred in
September 1939, the landlords left.

Their lands were distributed among the landless poor. So these poor
began to make short work of the land and the estates. Let's face
facts: the Ukrainian poor who took over the landlords' estates failed
to manage them properly. I think this history of those committees of
poor peasants (komnezamy) started during the Revolution of 1917.

I don't want to hurt anybody's feeling, but I must say that many of
the poor were that way not only because they were deprived of
property but because they couldn't be any different. I am sure that
Soviet power oriented itself toward the poor precisely since the
times of committees of poor peasants.

This tradition continues even today. My life was associated with
Poland, and I can affirm today it was nothing but occupation. In this
context, while assessing the tragedy that occurred sixty years ago,
it is very important to determine our behavior today.

"I fully agree that what happened in Volyn in 1943-1944 is a horrible
tragedy for the both the Ukrainian and Polish peoples. It would be a
good idea to look at the past from the standpoint of fundamental
values, such as freedom, statehood, nation, and people. I closely
watch what is going on.

We want to coordinate our position and our attitudes to the Volyn
tragedy with Poland. But this is impossible: I'm even convinced this
shouldn't be done.

What we should do is learn to face the real facts of the history of
both the Polish and Ukrainian peoples. So it would be a grave mistake
to adjust to each other's positions.

No matter how hard we try to assess that tragedy, we must remember
its causes. We can view the events as struggle against occupation.
And if we keep emphasizing that this was just the will of a, let us
say, extremist part of the people, we will condemn - like it or not -
the national liberation movement as such.

And if we do so, we should think about what we are leaving to our
descendants. Shall we tell them it is bad to fight against occupiers
and no good to fight for independence? There are a lot of such
questions, which in fact form the basis of a national movement.

"I'm watching now what's happening in Warsaw. The ongoing conferences
are undoubtedly interesting. Poland wants to mark the sixtieth
anniversary of the Volyn tragedy on a nationwide level and put up a
monument... Maybe Dmytro Pavlychko knows more about this, but I have
information that the Poles want to write on their monument 'To the
victims of OUN-UPA crimes' and to have something milder, more
carefully worded, inscribed on the monument in Lutsk.

If they do precisely so, we must write in reply, 'To the victims of
Polish extremist formations in Volyn.' This would be the only correct
approach. Otherwise, both sides should write, 'To the victims of 1943-
1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn.' Who will then honor the memory
of and erect a monument to the victims from our side?"



L.I.: "Mr. Kravchuk, in 1997 Presidents Kwasniewski and Kuchma issued
a joint statement, 'Towards Mutual Understanding and Unity,' and that
seemed to have turned the page of reciprocal accusations and opened
the way toward a new life, a dialog between the two peoples. Why do
you think it is now necessary to discuss the sixtieth anniversary in
terms of a red-letter day?
A few years later, in 2007, there will be the anniversary of the
Wisla (Vistula) Operation. So the whole decade will be strewn with
this kind of jubilee. Could this be an indication of rightwing
pressure on Poland's domestic policy?"



L. K., "There is a National Institute of Memory in Poland which deals
with crimes during the period of totalitarianism. Incidentally, its
structure comprises an investigating body - a general commission for
investigating the crimes against the Polish people. This commission
has the right to carry out investigations, including those under the
article on crimes against humanity.
The investigating body's head is simultaneously an institute deputy
director and a Deputy Prosecutor General of Poland. The general
commission investigates crimes committed against Polish nationals,
above all, those who resided on the territory of the former Soviet
Union within the borders of September 17, 1939, i.e., on the
territory of present-day Western Ukraine.

"As of today, the commission is going through about forty cases,
investigating, and I quote, 'the crimes of Ukrainian nationalists
against the Polish population.' In other words, a special body has
been doing this kind of research for more than ten years. Quite
obviously, as I was told, a huge number of all kinds of documents has
been accumulated during this time.

And I am convinced the Polish establishment wants to use this
commission and this investigation to draw certain political and moral
conclusions from the Volyn tragedy. Unfortunately, frankly speaking,
Ukraine isn't prepared for this. The Ukrainians have not done such
fundamental work as the Polish have. In this case, we seem to be
guided by emotions rather than by historical and documentary analysis.

"And I think when the leaders - presidents or anybody else - of
Ukraine and Poland meet, we should not forgo the historical truth and
historical facts for the sake of friendship and the future. I am sure
a true Pole will never approve the submissive behavior of a
Ukrainian, no matter what office he might hold. For he is aware that
this submissiveness will sooner or later give way to aggressiveness,
which will be viewed again as a reproach to friends and foes alike.

As long as Poland is going to commemorate the Volyn tragedy (we
cannot forbid the Polish to do so, for they have made a decision to
this effect), we must at least make our position clear. By no means
should we look back at 'advocacy,' the gas pipeline or, say, 'eternal
friendship...' We have already had this kind of experience. The
Ukrainians must not give up the main thing - national dignity and
truth for themselves and their descendants."

THE POLISH ARE NOT QUITE PREPARED FOR A DIALOG



L. I.: "Mr. Kravchuk, I fully agree with you. Mr. Zhulynsky, who
should the Ukrainians pin their hopes on to have our national dignity
upheld and our national interests served? For I haven't heard the
self-proclaimed patriotic parties say anything on this issue."


Mykola ZHULYNSKY: "My dear Ms. Ivshyna, I want, first of all, to
express a word of gratitude to you and your collective for your
persistent longtime attempts to give a comprehensive evaluation of
what we call the Volyn Tragedy of 1943- 1944. It is very important
that Ukraine should know the truth about these events. Regrettably,
Ukrainians know very little about it.

MYKOLA ZHULYNSKY


Now some personal comments. In August 1943 our village, called
Novosilky at the time (in Rivne oblast), was surrounded by Polish
police and the Germans, and villagers began to run away across the
river Styr to the villages of Tovpyzhyn and Hrabivets. Some managed
to flee, some did not: there were machine-guns firing. Clearly, the
operation was aimed against the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). Among
the villagers there really were people who fought under UPA colors.

But my father didn't fight. He was not a UPA combatant, for he had
been in the Soviet Army and taken prisoner. Then he came back home
and lived with our family. I was then two years old or something. He
took me in his arms and hid by the Styr. The Polish policemen with
dogs spotted him and took him out.

They lined up all the men they found. They forced him to let me go.
He told me to go home. I don't remember... Then they were taken away
on trucks. Eight or ten men were disembarked in the woods near
Horokhiv and shot dead without even a summary trial. The rest were
taken to a Lutsk jail and then to a concentration camp. My father
went through three German extermination camps: Auschwitz, Dachau, and
Sagan. From that time until 1971 we didn't even know if he was dead
or alive.

"This tragedy also touched upon other relatives of mine. For example,
Mykhailo, the son of my mother's brother, had served in the Polish
army. When the Germans routed Poland, he was on the way home and ran
into a Polish ambush, just a stone's throw from the village... He was
shot down for unwillingness to fight for Poland. We don't know where
his grave is. The other Mykola, 17, was also shot by a Polish firing
squad near Horokhiv. The third child, a daughter, also died.

In brief, this left two old people without three children - they
didn't even know where the children were buried. My uncle Andriy, a
cow herd, who informed the UPA about the approaching police and
Germans, was caught by the Polish police: they cut out his tongue,
gouged out his eyes, and crucified him. That was a great and horrible
tragedy, and we undoubtedly have to remember it.

"I would like, if you don't mind, to further develop Mr. Kravchuk's
idea. The point is that the Poles, unlike the Ukrainians, have indeed
made a thorough study of these problems. As a matter of fact, we are
now in a position without arguments. Unfortunately, we have collected
too few eyewitness reports and documentary materials. This was
caused, above all, by the lack of access to archival, especially
Polish, materials (this was flatly banned in the communist period).

Now that the ban has been lifted, the truth is being revealed. It
seems to me the Polish side failed to foresee the tide now rolling
onto Poland. Honoring the memory of their compatriots who died in
Volyn and elsewhere, they are not quite prepared to know the whole
truth of which Mr. Kravchuk spoke and which we did not discuss for a
number of reasons. It is clear, though, why we did not discuss it in
the communist times.

"Yet, I would like to make a somewhat unorthodox digression. In the
early 1970s, German veterans' associations began to raise their
heads. Although they were active, they were largely dismissed as 'a
bunch of old people...' But, contrary to expectations, they pressed
on. These associations have been claiming lately that Germany not
only wiped out a lot of other peoples but also... fell victim to the
Second World War. They mention as an example the fate of the Sudeten
Germans.

You know about [Czechoslovak] President Benes' decrees and the
ongoing acute squabble between Germany and the Czech Republic. The
Germans demand that the decrees be condemned and suggest that an anti-
deportation center be established. But this is the problem of not
only the Sudeten Germans but also the Germans who resided on what is
now Polish territory.

The Poles also found themselves not quite prepared to stem this tide.
The point is the Germans, in fact deported from their historical
homeland (Silesia, Pomerania, and Danzig {now ë Slask, Pomorze, and
Gdansk -Ed.}), are now raising the question of establishing a center
in memory of German deportees.

Where? The Poles are already saying: perhaps in Wroclaw...This is
quite a serious problem. The Poles think, for some reason, that they
are already morally prepared to adequately address these problems.
But, in my opinion, they aren't at all prepared for this. We can
tell, for example, the story of Edvabno.

Mr. Pavlychko knows very well that in 1941 Polish nationalists wiped
out the whole Jewish population and plundered their property in the
shtetl of Edvabno. Nobody said even a word about that crime until US
and German historians took up this problem. The Poles were forced to
launch a nationwide debate on anti-Semitism and chauvinism. We know
how the Poles reacted..."



Dmytro Pavlychko: "As a result, Aleksander Kwasniewski came to
Edvabno and apologized to the Jews on behalf of the Polish people..."


M. Z.: "The Wisla (Vistula) Operation has not been fully condemned,
by the Polish side. Let us recall the Jaworzno concentration camp,
where Ukrainians were not only kept but also sentenced to death and
executed by firing squads... Why are the Germans raising the question
of deportees? They clearly need this as compensation for the guilt
they bear. 'For we also suffered, which somewhat assuages our crimes,
our guilt, our pangs of conscience, etc. ...'
We are now talking about the Volyn problems, but still to be
discussed is Zasiannia, Kholmshchyna, and Pidliashshia, in which case
Poland has in fact taken no steps. But this immediately raises the
following question: why not establish a Ukrainian deportees center,
as the Germans are raising the question of a German deportees center
in the Sudetenland or, say, in Gdansk...?

"The current problem is that the Ukrainians should not view the Volyn
events as kind of a pitchfork with which the Poles are going to lift
us so that we see the truth. The truth is terrible, but we must also
say honestly that there were also crimes on the Ukrainian part which
we firmly condemn. We must explain to ourselves and our people why
that happened.

"We have launched a debate on the SS Halychyna (Galician) Division.
But nobody talks about the fact that there was a similar division in
France: more Frenchmen died on the German side than on that of the
Resistance and the forces that fought for the liberation of France
from Nazi Germany. So there are very many serious problems here. It
is too early to say in our discussion today that the problem has been
done way with..."



L. I.: "When the Poles came to hold bilateral talks on Volyn, they
brought with them ten volumes written by a presidential staff
commission. This is an ample piece of evidence for politicians. The
Ukrainians came in with a thin folder: this is a matter of reproach
for the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences, and the
University of Volyn (I visited Lutsk last December and said, 'Dear
colleagues, please write, we're ready to publish').
Nobody in general cared about how the state will look until it came
to the crunch. It is still obvious that we must understand the
political and social backdrop of the problem of unilateral
repentance. When we hear again the ominous phrase, ethnic
cleansing... If the Poles did something wrong, the blame falls
exclusively on the totalitarian regime, but when Ukraine is in
question, charges are leveled at Ukrainian criminals. I think this
should be a matter of general attention in Ukraine as well.

IF TOMORROW IS TO BE SHROUDED IN HISTORICAL UNTRUTH, THERE WILL NEVER
BE A TOMORROW



L. I.: "And what is the attitude of Germany toward Poland and that of
Ukraine toward Poland?"


D. P.: "Well, whatever we say and calculate, these are our own
Ukrainian woes. No matter how hard we try to lay the whole blame on
the Poles, we will always bump into the Polish side which will be
doing exactly the same. There have always been and will be two
national truths. And we must reduce these truths to one common truth.
It is almost impossible, but it has to be done.

DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO


I approve of Volodymyr Serhiychuk's book, The Tragedy of Volyn. He is
our first historian who has collected certain archival materials.

Ukrainian-Polish history is not drawing to a close but is only
beginning. If we think that everything was in the past, we will never
come to an acceptable conclusion. We had no state, we were a
stateless nation, while the Polish had a state of their own. So they
have an entirely different attitude toward history."



L. I.: "But this argument has no effect on them now."


D. P.: "I know it hasn't, but we are talking about our own argument."


L. K.: "One word, please. I will try to answer a very interesting
question. Why are the Poles striving so actively to observe the
tragedy's sixtieth anniversary? Dmytro Pavlychko is right, saying
that they have far more grievances to settle with the Germans. But
Germany is a strong state. I think Polish rightwing forces feel that
today's Ukraine is a politically and economically weakened state
beset with a host of problems and in need of a guide.
Moreover, our bureaucrats keep saying that Poland should be that
guide. And we appreciate and exalt this to the skies and say: let
Ukraine not emphasize the historical truth and accept softer worded
conclusions in the name of its current interests and in the name of,
say, future friendship with Poland.

"I agree with Mr. Pavlychko that we should think about tomorrow. But
if tomorrow is to be shrouded in historical untruth, there will never
be a tomorrow. For nobody can deny the fact that in 1943 the Polish
government-in-exile negotiated with Stalin and Western leaders that
Volyn should be part of Poland after the war. Only after the Potsdam
Conference was this question taken off the agenda.

Tell me please: could the nationally-minded forces on those lands put
up with this philosophy? Next, it was, to some extent, a Jacquerie
because axes, pitchforks, and scythes were used... It was not
accidental that I recalled the colonists. They took the land! The
Ukrainians never tried to foray into the Polish lands.

If we say now bluntly that this never happened in our history and
that we must take all blame, then, pardon me, what will we leave
after us in history - for our children, grandchildren, and great-
grandchildren? What will we leave for them?

A simple and clear thing: we are ready to start, together with the
Poles, writing a history suitable for Poland, we are ready to team up
with the Russians in writing a history suitable for Russia... Then
who are we? We must not do this! I stress again: if we want mutual
condemnation and mutual apology, it should be truly mutual.

Now about monuments. I recalled them not by accidentally either. For
a monument is not a book to be read with arguments in hand. It will
stand forever: 'here are the villains, OUN-UPA.' That's all! What
about us? We won't have anything. Then we'll say - Pavlychko is
right - we're all criminals.

I remember very well the times when I was a member of the Communist
Party Central Committee: there was not a single report of the CC
First Secretary without the phrase 'Ukrainian bourgeois nationalists,
fierce enemies of the Ukrainian people; OUN-UPA, the trash of the
Ukrainian people.'

This still lingers in the heads of thousands of people - and this is
natural because we are unable to put things in order in our own
house. 'The Ukrainians will give in, you just have to press them a
little. They don't know anything themselves.' Thank you, we have at
least one book."

"THE HEROES WHOSE GRAVES ARE IN AN ALIEN LAND WILL NEVER RISE FROM
THEIR GRAVES"



D. P.: "I want to say in conclusion of about what I remember..."


L. K.: "I'm sorry, I interrupted you."


D. P.: "I don't mind you interrupting me. You used to interrupt me in
Verkhovna Rada but, thank God, I could also interrupt you, and then
we proclaimed together an independent Ukrainian state. Yes, it was I
who sat behind Leonid Makarovych Kravchuk and brought him the edited
text of the Independence Proclamation Act on August 24, 1991.
"So I want to tell you that all the bloody conflicts that arose
between Poland and Ukraine never led to the victory of either side.
Even Bohdan Khmelnytsky's victory over Poland eventually pushed
Ukraine into the Ruin and then into Tsarist Russian captivity. Then
Poland was partitioned also and the part of it with Warsaw was
annexed by Russia.

This occurred because Kazimierz the Great began to conquer Ukrainian
lands in 1349, without understanding that a conquered land will never
remain yours, that, as Ivan Franko said, 'the heroes whose graves are
in an alien land will never rise from their graves.'

I would like to note that Franko wrote an article called 'Our View of
the Polish Question.' I can't quote it exactly, but the gist is as
follows: we, Ukrainians, will never agree to the restoration of
Poland in its old boundaries. Then Franko asks us directly: what is a
realistic or, as we say now, pragmatic policy? Franko teaches us, 'we
must always think about tomorrow.

I fully agree with Mr. Kravchuk that Ukrainians should study down to
the tiniest detail this tragedy and, in general, all that we had with
the Poles: otherwise, there will be no progress. But we must also
take into account what the great Pole Jerzy Gedroyc said, 'Let us
renounce Lviv!' And the current Polish government has done so. So
what do you want? To erect a monument only to worsen Ukrainian-Polish
relations?

For Kuchma and Kwasniewski signed in 1997 the document 'Towards
Mutual Understanding and Unity' which calls on Poles and Ukrainians
to unite and be the closest nations, to build a common European
civilization.

Besides, there were instances in our Polish-Ukrainian history, when
great Polish figures, for example, Juliusz Slowacki, a great son of
the Ukrainian soil and one of the greatest geniuses of Polish
literature, said in 1835, before Shevchenko, in the words of an
Ukrainian woman to a Polish noble, 'You, dishonest creature, won't
know that Ukraine will arise some day.' This was said by a Pole.

The point is some Poles served us, and we served the Poles. And, when
Poland recently launched a debate on the SS Halychyna division and
began to berate us, somebody recalled that this division's commander,
Pavlo Shandruk, had been awarded Order Virtuti Militari, for he had
been a Polish army officer and gallantly fought against the Germans
in 1939 at the head of the 20th Brigade.

He got this highest Polish medal from the London- based government in
exile. This made Poland shut up. We must not only say, 'We apologize
and pardon you,' but also search our history for and celebrate the
events that bring us closer."



L. K.: "The Poles must also search for the same thing."


D. P.: "Of course, not only we. They also. For the Poles want to
celebrate what disunites us, and we should suggest that we celebrate
what unites us.
For there can be no bloody justice. There will be no truth either
here or there if we choose to erect tendentious and unrighteous
monuments. Today we must view Poland as not a homogeneous mass but as
a nation in which different political trends compete. I am convinced
that victory will be won by a trend that could have once said and can
say now, 'Our existence is unthinkable without Ukraine'."



----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------


PART II: VOLYN, 1943-1944, THE UNKNOWN TRAGEDY
The Terrible Interethnic Conflict Between Ukrainians and Poles in
Volyn Ukraine and Poland Should Observe the Dates that Unite Us

Prepared by Serhiy Makhun, Ihor Siundiukov,
Vyacheslav Darpiniants, Mykhailo Mazurin
The Day Weekly Digest in Two Parts
Part I, May 13, 2003; Part II, May 27, 2003
Kyiv, Ukraine The Day continues the debate on the root and essence of
the 1943-1944 interethnic conflict in Volyn which claimed tens of
thousands of Ukrainian and Polish lives.

In any case, one should neither mix the historical components of this
confrontation with the political aspects of today nor seek unilateral
repentance from the other.

Only the perception and unconditional acceptance of the fact that
both the Polish and the Ukrainian sides are responsible for this
bloodshed under the cruelest conditions of World War II will
contribute to unbiased coverage of the events of sixty years ago.


A UNIQUE SNAPSHOT: THE KYIV VOLYN FRATERNITY AND THE "ASSOCIATE
MEMBER" DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO
Photo by Mykola LAZARENKO, The Day


Participating in the debate are prominent Volyn-born contemporary
politicians: first President of Ukraine Leonid KRAVCHUK; People's
Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola ZHULYNSKY and Serhiy
SHEVCHUK; Lieutenant General Oleksandr SKIPALSKY; and former
Ambassador of Ukraine to Poland Dmytro PAVLYCHKO.



Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, The Day

Larysa IVSHYNA: "I would like to ask you, General Skipalsky, a
question. Ukrainians must distance themselves one way or another from
the status of defendant. But, of course, we must also make some real
steps to stop being one. Sometimes 'advocates' succumb to the
temptation of taking advantage of the defendant's plight. But perhaps
Ukrainians should also ask themselves the question of whether they
can help Poland? For example, to counter a strong pressure of the
Polish Right that could harm both Poland and Ukraine. We must also be
the active subject of politics."


THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE UKRAINE STRONG



Oleksandr SKIPALSKY: "I always feel the state at my back. For there
are government agencies supposed to do their job, defending the
national interests of Ukraine and Ukrainians, which our first
president emphasized. I was born in Volyn, ten kilometers away from
the River Buh, at a farmstead, later part of the village of Vyzhhiv,
Liuboml district. The village was burnt down by Polish Armia Krajowa
(AK) units that crossed the Buh.
So I have my own scores to settle with the Poles - suffice it to say
I was born in a dugout. In 1943 the AK killed my grandmother, burnt
down the houses of my two grandfathers, and murdered my uncle.

They did so, although none of my close kinsmen were in OUN or UPA.
Then what should I personally apologize for? For being left without a
house, a grandmother, or even without three houses (the two of my
grandfathers and one of my father)? For the fact that our farmstead
was ruined for no apparent reason?

From the perspective of today's international relations, I agree we
should seek a balanced way out. We should shake hands and apologize
for the bloodshed of sixty years ago in the interests of the future.
I just can't understand any different answer or different action: the
memory of my relatives will never let me. Another thing - the graves
of innocent victims will always remind me of this.

As to the future geopolitical changes, I want to put forward one more
argument, one more approach. We must never forget that there is a
shadowy force of influence in international relations, also known the
world over as secret services. When my respected colleagues were
discussing the problem of Polish-German, Ukrainian-Polish, and
Ukrainian-Russian relations, I kept recalling the following.

Why do you think should Warsaw's Russian Embassy officials drive
across the Peremysl land to Hrubieszxw and say, 'Look, this is the
land Stalin and Russia gave you. The Ukrainians never would have'?"

In my view, there is also a third force involved in this, one that
wants to create tension. Undoubtedly, there are countries that would
not like to see a strong Ukraine. You know very well that the
Ukrainian leadership is favoring today the idea of a single economic
space, that there are powerful forces in this country, which claim
that Ukraine will be part of the Union tomorrow.

You know that a Russian geopolitical institute predicts that Ukraine
will be partitioned into two states along the Dnipro. Reasonable
politicians indeed, the Poles are trying to stake their claims, just
in case, on the territory of Volyn, saying they 'have a historic
right to these lands because they suffered there so much'."



L. I.: "There are our graves there..."


O. S.: "Yes, there are our graves there. The so-called anniversary
observation or Ukraine's unilateral apology would have dire
consequences.
For the Polish view is as follows, 'If Ukraine is apologizing so
readily, it will just as readily cede Volyn; it will surrender Donbas
to Russia and Bukovyna to Romania.' The authorities concerned,
especially the National Security and Defense Council, should work
with subtlety and delicacy on this problem..."



L. I.: "Gen. Skipalsky, here is a question to you and all those
present. President Kwasniewski is under pressure from the Right. It
is quite possible that he would behave differently but for this
pressure. But who must pressure our politicians? I am not sure they
also need this kind of support, these heated voices that say: do as
you please, but we won't let you take any unilateral steps in this
direction. Who should do this?"


O. S.: "One must differentiate President Kwasniewski of Poland from
many of our politicians. In spite of any private, personal or
material interests, Kwasniewski always remains a Pole. He will go the
whole nine yards to defend Polish interests. And he will be right to
do so, for this is the golden rule for any true politician. We should
help our leaders understand what the national interest is. I hope our
meeting will to some extent help them understand this. We must learn.
It is our tragedy that Ukraine is a young state and our governmental
mechanism malfunctions. Let me give you some examples with concrete
names. A person named Yaroslav Tsaruk collects archival materials
about the Volyn tragedy in Volodymyr-Volyn district (I was elected to
parliament from that constituency).

When I was a deputy, I bought - with my own money - and presented him
with a tape recorder so he could go around and record eyewitness
reports. As a Verkhovna Rada deputy, I turned to the Cabinet of
Ministers and local Council Chairman Klymchuk for assistance in
publishing the materials collected.

Only when the Poles stepped on the gas did we start to move a little
(we really need the stick sometimes). Let Mr. Klymchuk explain today
why he in fact turned a blind eye to this. Why couldn't he find 1000
hryvnias to get that book published in 1995? And nobody could!"



L. I.: "You know, Gen. Skipalsky, I think it is a good idea to name
those who have done something like this. There is a real chance to
tell truth at last about those events. After all, we must be aware of
the political space we are in. But if our president, the executive
branch, and parliamentary committee heads need educational and
humanitarian assistance, this assistance should be rendered
immediately, so they act in true conscience.
For example, Mr. Pavlychko recalled some people of the Marko
Bezruchko caliber along with Marshal Budenny, but the alumni of
Soviet schools see no equation here. Ukraine must now come together
on the basis of the Volyn events. For this is a unification formula
for all Ukraine. It is not just the question of Volyn alone. This
also applies to the Donbas, Crimea, Bukovyna... We should all spread
knowledge about these events via party-based and non-governmental
organizations."



O. S.: "I am 100% certain that the so-called observation of the
sixtieth anniversary of the Volyn events is part of a strategic,
geopolitical, special operation aimed at isolating Ukraine. All the
components of this operation are being controlled, supervised, and
hyped to a large extent. If we look at each component and then at the
whole thing, we will see who stands to gain from this. We do have
professionals - not just scholarly consultants - capable of defending
our national interests. We must finally become Ukrainians."
POLISH CHAUVINISTS DO HARM NOT ONLY TO UKRAINE BUT ALSO TO POLAND



Dmytro PAVLYCHKO: "You know only too well which forces are interested
in stirring up enmity between us and Poles. So we must exercise
utmost caution today. The Ukrainians should never offer unilateral
apologies, but it is important to suggest that the Poles take a
Christian step as they did with respect to the Germans. You mentioned
the Russians. Russian diplomats kept saying to me at every
reception, 'How can a khokhol (Ukrainian - Ed.) possibly be together
with a liakh (Pole - Ed.)? It's impossible!' And today these Polish
chauvinists are doing harm not only to Ukraine but also to their own
Polish state.
For nobody - NATO or any other force - but Ukraine (I told them this
frankly in Warsaw) will help Poland if it becomes part of this
geopolitical space without our country. Will the Danes or the
Norwegians fight for Poland? The point is we have the government, the
President, and the parliament. The powers that be must say on behalf
of the Ukrainian people, 'We apologize, but you should apologize
too.'"



L. I.: "I heard Mr. Serhiy Shevchuk's dialog with Polish
representative Ms. Bogumila Berdychowska on Radio Liberty. I noticed
one thing. Mr. Shevchuk dropped a very innocent phrase, 'Poland is
now facing some domestic problems, and this perhaps caused such an
attitude.'
Ms. Bogumila answered, 'Why is the gentleman so worried about Poland?
Poland will do it on its own.' Then she said something like 'mind
your own business.' This is quite a telling example. Have we switched
from partnership at all levels to confrontation? Apparently, we
ourselves have psychologically enabled certain Polish circles to hope
that they can solve these problems just now however they want."



D. P.: "Vice Premier Azarov has been visiting Moscow to make a deal
on the so-called common economic space with some CIS countries. The
Poles have interpreted this as the first signal that they can treat
us with an air of superiority. But Ukraine also has its own interest,
and everybody must be aware of this. Issues like this should not be
addressed in an emotional vein."


Mykola ZHULYNSKY: "Mrs. Ivshyna, I have long chaired the Ukrainian-
Polish Forum and co-chaired the parliamentary group in charge of
links with the Polish Sejm. Despite all the tragedies of my family, I
have never told the Poles about this, for I have been doing my best
to achieve mutual understanding and work in the name of the future.
It is no accident that I noted the role of German war veteran
organizations.
Likewise, I would like to point out the role of various Polish
compatriot organizations which have in fact assumed such public
strength that they even forced Kwasniewski to raise this problem at a
high governmental level. Maybe President Kwasniewski hopes he will
manage to take the situation into his own hands and give it the right
twist. Yet, in my view, Polish authorities are failing to keep this
situation under control today.

"The Polish side seems to believe that our political and governmental
leadership is unaware of the essence of this problem, of the
historical subtext and circumstances, and does not know what caused
the 1943-1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn. Betting precisely on
this, the Poles try to force the Ukrainian side to apologize and thus
obtain compensation.

I want to say a few words about the book Tragedy of Volyn. It was
published with assistance of the Ukrainian- Polish Forum. You just
can't imagine the reaction of my Polish friends: how on earth could
the Ukrainian- Polish Forum support a book containing so many facts
against Poland?

I answered, 'But you don't want to know the truth! There is your
Polish truth, and there is our Ukrainian truth, and the latter has
not yet been fully established - it will still take some time.' Even
if the Poles enter the EU, they won't feel comfortable unless they
find mutual understanding with Ukraine because this understanding
will always be on the agenda."

WE MUST AVERT A CONFLICT BETWEEN AK AND UPA VETERANS



Serhiy SHEVCHUK: "I would like to say a few words about my native
Volyn. Volynians are distinguished for their patriarchal setup, sound
judgment, kindness and open-heartedness.
"But these good qualities are evident just up to a certain point. For
it is quite a different thing when the question is about homeland,
kin, and children... Poland, our good advisor and friend, has
gradually and quite unexpectedly assumed the function of
Ukraine's 'advocate,' looking down on this country as if we were a
weakling. The results of this 'advocacy' are all too obvious.

Then came the period of certain tension in Ukrainian-Polish
relations. From May 2004 onwards, Poland will cease to pursue an
independent foreign, economic, customs, and other policy because it
will become part of the EU. This means Ukraine will have to denounce
all treaties not only with Poland but also, incidentally, with the
Baltic states in the commercial, economic, and financial areas. Those
states are already official EU members under the Athens accords.

In particular, this invalidates free trade treaties with the Baltic
states and many other, including economic, agreements with Poland,
for example, one on exporting our steel and other materials. From now
on, Warsaw is not the sole decision- maker: Brussels will be telling
Warsaw what to do. It seems to me the Poles foresaw this well before
the Ukrainians did.

Unfortunately, we are now in a period of conflicting interests.
Whether or not we want it, Warsaw is officially trying to confront
and downgrade relations with us. In July the Poles are going to put
up monuments in Volyn, to say nothing about what they want to write
on them about OUN-UPA. This is a far more serious thing than it seems.

They officially speak about a genocide of the Polish people. But the
word genocide quite seldom occurs in modern history. This means the
Ukrainians will be portrayed precisely as the nation that committed
genocide against the Polish population.

It's easy to foresee the reaction of other states if the Polish say
it was genocide against the Polish populace and we officially admit
this. This will provoke a condemnation from at least the European
community because Poland is almost a EU member. Then Poland will take
us to the Hague court. School textbooks and scholarly studies will be
full of references to the fact of genocide, not to mention the
property question.

"Mr. Siwiec claims 99 villages were burnt down by the Ukrainians.
This is, pardon the expression, a bald-faced lie. I don't want to
hurt Ms. Berdychowska's feelings, but this is an out-and-out lie.
When Messrs. Siwiec and Medvedchuk were recently visiting Hayiv, near
Kivertsy, they could see a well- cared-for cemetery as well as a
totally unacceptable thing: a memorial stone with a list of villages
and townships that Ukrainians allegedly burnt down. I don't know
whether the distinguished guests really saw this stone, which
mentions Livertsy, Kolky and many other villages which had never been
burnt or ruined. Besides, this is written on our sovereign territory!"



L. I.: "Who put up this memorial stone?"


S. S.: "The Poles did."


L. I.: "With whose permission?"


S. S.: "With the permission of the local administration heads."


L. I.: "Why is the Polish side insisting on maintaining direct
contacts with bodies of local self- government?"


S. S.: "The Poles do not stay in contact with oblast administrations
or councils. They go to district authorities. This is simpler and
easier. There's more than one reason why the local authorities give a
go- ahead to do such things. 14 busloads of Armia Krajowa combatants
were to have come to attend the unveiling of this monument. They
never came. I was approached by our UPA veterans who said to me: if
they come, we'll also come - on foot without any buses - but armed
with pitchforks and gas pistols.
We then resorted to the following stratagem: we sealed the border for
two days, so the bussed Polish combatants stood around and eventually
left. We thus managed to ward off a conflict between the veterans.
And I am not sure there will be no other similar or even more serious
conflicts between AK and UPA combatants.

"Incidentally, to emphasize that Volynians are not as bellicose as
the Poles claim they are, I would like to give another, perhaps also
interesting, fact. You know that Wehrmacht and Volyn Red Army
veterans have been establishing relations of late. They meet each
other, travel to Germany, and the Germans come visit us. I once
witnessed a very interesting thing. When these white-haired and war-
crippled veterans gathered at a table in Turiysk, one German
said, 'Here, near Turiysk, I fought on this side of the river.' A Red
Army man replied, 'But I also fought and fired in that direction!'

The German veteran says, 'You know, you might have been shooting at
me; look, I was wounded in the left hand.' And he showed his two
remaining fingers. There was a pause. Then the German found what to
say, 'But I still have the right hand to hold out to you.' They shook
hands and hugged each other! Will UPA and Armia Krajowa veterans ever
come to this? I don't know. Still, I would like them to."

"WHOEVER LIBERATES HIMSELF WILL BE FREE, WHOEVER IS LIBERATED BY
SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE DOOMED TO ENTHRALMENT..."



Leonid KRAVCHUK: "We are not discussing today the problem of
Operation Wi s ‰ la. And rightly so. For, unlike the Volyn tragedy,
the Wisla problem is not a domestic political problem; it came up
after Nikita Khrushchev signed an agreement with the Polish Committee
of National Liberation.
My perception is that if Poland condemns the Wisla Operation (I have
heard about this), President Kwasniewski might as well have said in
his letter to the conference, 'Let's first cancel the brutal decision
made by Khrushchev and the Polish government.' What's the problem?

The point is that far from all Poles share the viewpoint that the Wi
s ‰ la Operation was really an unfair and brutal action against the
Ukrainians. In any case, nobody from the Polish side has made an
official statement to this effect."



D. P.: "Yes. The Senate has condemned the Wi s ‰ la Operation. I
emphasize: the Senate, not the whole Sejm. So this condemnation is
not much of a consequence, it does not figure in any documents.
Still, we must mention this step."


L. K.: "But could the Polish president make a relevant statement on
this matter? He does have the right to do so. But, instead of making
a political statement, Kwasniewski wrote a letter..."


M. Z.: "In which he did not apologize to the Ukrainians but only
expressed his sympathy..."


L. K.: "He expressed his sympathy but did not say he condemned the Wi
s ‰ la Operation. He wrote this operation should be condemned. But
when and by whom? The emphases put in this letter raised many an
eyebrow, so many that it appears as if Poland were innocent. But the
truth is that the Polish government must take all the blame for the
Wisla affair.
While, quite frankly, both sides are to blame for the Volyn events,
the Wisla Operation is put on the conscience of one side only. Can we
forget about the concentration camp, where 4,000 Ukrainian died and
only 186 survived? Nor should we forget about other problems still to
be solved, such as loss of property."



S. S.: "Ukraine also saw a deportation, the deportation of Crimean
Tatars. Our state has adopted an absolutely humane attitude toward
this. Incidentally, Europe does not appreciate this. More than
300,000 Crimean Tatars have come back. The state has given them land.
Ukraine renders them as much assistance as it can and has even
granted them clearly defined representation in governmental bodies."


L. K.: "Although it is not Ukraine but the USSR, a different state,
that deported the Crimean Tatars."


S. S.: "The Poles have only hinted at an apology for the Wi s ‰ la
Operation, but we take this as a very big step forward..."


L. K.: "Now look, Kuchma is supposed to apologize, while Kwasniewski
has not even begged our pardon for the Wi s ‰ la affair. This is a
proven fact!"


M. Z.: "Mr. Kravchuk, all this began when you were president. It's
your government that began to pursue a very well-considered policy
toward the Crimean Tatars. And the Council of Europe was with us, and
OSCE High Commissioner Max van der Stoel came, and you received him."


L. K.: "We also allowed Germans to return to Ukraine..."


M. Z.: "And all the Europeans saw that Ukraine was the only state
that could address so humanely the problem of ethnic, especially
repressed, minorities.
Let's consider the following question. Verkhovna Rada had just begun
to show a more friendly climate, it was already possible to move the
issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, a law had been drawn up... And
suddenly the Volyn problem arose. Moreover, emphasis is being laid on
alleged OUN-UPA crimes. I want to support General Skipalsky's
position: this is all big-time politics.

The aim is, first, to keep Ukraine from restoring historical justice
and recognizing UPA a combatant; second, to raise these problems and
leave Europe with the problem of the deportation of Ukrainians from
Kholmshchyna and Pidliashshia; third, the prospects. Poland will
enter the European Union, which in fact solves the problem of borders.

If, for example, Ukraine just as quickly got the opportunity of
joining the EU, then there would be no border as such between Poland
and Ukraine, and the primordial Ukrainian territories we are talking
about would belong to Europe as well as to Ukraine because the
Ukrainians have a still more legitimate right to return there. This
is also a serious problem which neither we nor the Poles are raising.

But in this case European borders become a purely formalistic
problem, with humanitarian values, culture, etc., coming to the fore.
Culture is already a factor that shapes the European theater. And we
should have already been taking a quite active part in this dialog. I
think there are some other underlying reasons why we are unable today
to feel or find the root causes of this very difficult problem.
Indeed, we should have studied it."



L. I.: "So the Volyn events are just the tip of an iceberg..."
THE VOLYN QUADRANGLE: WARSAW-KYIV-BERLIN-MOSCOW

D. P.: "When I was still in Poland, some respected Polish newspapers
began to print articles critical of Kwasniewski, Geremek, and then
the next foreign minister and suggesting that Poland should not side
with Ukraine.
Yet, Kwasniewski always stressed that Poland's Eastern policy is
oriented toward Ukraine, a strategic partner and ally. This position
gradually came under fire. Why? Because one has to make friends. Who
with? With Russia! In the East, Poland's main partner is Russia, not
Ukraine, Kwasniewski's critics said.

Step by step, this idea attracted some Poles and Polish politicians
(actually this is an old idea going back to Roman Dmowski and best
represented in the Communist period by one Boleslaw Piasecki, leader
of the prewar fascist Polish Falange who later made a deal with the
Soviets and, as head of the Pax Publishing House, died the richest
man in People's Poland - Ed.). Meanwhile, this is in essence an anti-
Polish idea.

There have always been two peoples, the Ukrainian and Polish, between
Russia and Germany. They have fought each other, and both Germans and
Russians were first of all interested in this. In 1943 the Gestapo
would set Polish guerrillas against the Ukrainians, give them lists
of UPA fighters, and the Poles would then kill real Ukrainian
patriots.

Our general Skipalsky noted very shrewdly that the Volyn tragedy was
not only the result of the pain and the feeling of revenge that the
Ukrainians had against the Poles. It is also the result of a
provocation by two states.

Of course, today's Russia and Germany are not what they used to be,
but there are certain forces that strive to turn the clock back and
set again Ukraine against Poland and Poland against Ukraine.

And we should not give into this with an emotional outburst: look,
they demand repentance from us. Far from all the Poles demand this
repentance; this demand emanates from the previously mentioned fact-
finding commissions.

We should organize a meeting under the Polish-Ukrainian Forum
auspices. The Volyn problem should be raised in our parliament - if
not at a plenary session, then at least in commissions.

Please raise this issue, gentlemen. You are people's deputies after
all. Let us begin a parliamentary discussion on this issue. This
problem should be discussed in parliament, not only in an editorial
office. And let our president voice his views."



S. S.: "Above all, I'd like to say there was, as Academician
Zhulynsky recalls, a statement made by the NDP faction. Then there
was a good chance to discuss these issues, even without calling them
Volyn massacre. There was a draft resolution proposed by Yuliya
Tymoshenko, Teren, and Bilorus about holding parliamentary hearings
on the deportation of Ukrainians from Kholmshchyna and Lemkivshchyna.
But it was voted down."


L. I.: "Parliamentary hearings provide, on the one hand, a good
opportunity to show a firm position if it really exists. But, on the
other hand, this can also be quite a dangerous thing. It is one thing
if you manage to capture the attention of this audience. I am still
afraid that this could be quite a risky undertaking.
And, frankly, I would like our current discussion, which is sure to
be published as fully as possible, to end with a certain number of
proposals to the legislative and executive branches. If we fail to
get back to the issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, we will miss
our chance, because, in my view, this will mean blatant injustice to
the Ukrainian nation's golden stock, the people who risked their
lives and took part in the liberation struggle."

WE MUST UPHOLD OUR OWN VISION OF HISTORY



L. K.: "We have the Volyn and the Rivne compatriot associations... I
suggest we get together and, say, offer our viewpoint on the Volyn
tragedy's anniversary. First, there must be days of mourning or days
of delegation exchange... Secondly, we could draw up, if not a
document then at least a number of items for a declaration or a
memorandum on the Volyn tragedy.
And the main idea not to be missed: under no circumstances should we
allow Ukraine and our national dignity to be humiliated and the truth
to be distorted.

We must learn to live with the truth that exists, not with one that
we would like to see in the name of some abstract goals. If we are
unable today to stand economically or politically abreast with, say,
Russia, we must at l east be able to defend our dignity. We must
uphold our own vision of history and stand up for ourselves in spite
of any lucrative dividends."



D. P.: "I support Mr. Kravchuk but still want to note again: the
Volyn tragedy is a common tragedy that requires reciprocal apologies.
As to proposals, I think, first, that a statement could be made on
behalf of not only the Volyn group but also the deputies making up
part of the Polish-Ukrainian Parliamentary Group."


M. Z.: "Jan Bira, Henryk Wxjec and I have decided to draw up a joint
declaration of the Polish Sejm and the Ukrainian parliament."


D. P.: "This can be a laconic statement: a common tragedy with mutual
apologies. That's all. Otherwise we will be never able to break the
vicious circle. I have already said our history is full of facts that
bring us closer to each other, that enable us to claim that Poland
and Ukraine have been friends, not only foes. We fought together, for
example, in the battles of Grunwald, Warsaw, and Zamo ‰ s ‰ c... In
1945, well after the Volyn tragedy, UPA and AK jointly liberated camp
prisoners in Hrubieszxw. This means there were also individuals who
cherished the unity of our peoples.
For instance, the Poles feel respect for Petliura. The point is that
Petliura said to them in a complicated situation, 'Take lands as far
as the Zbruch but save Kyiv.' The Poles just misunderstood his
message and agreed to sign the Riga Treaty of 1921. That was in fact
the third partition of Ukraine by Warsaw and Moscow, and it is worth
reminding the Poles of such things. They partitioned us too many
times for us to forget it.

Yet, at the same time, we must say we believe in those Poles who
understand that they need Ukraine and that high-profile campaigns in
the year of the Volyn tragedy anniversary, erection of monuments,
etc., are anti- Polish actions in the long run. Poland is strong in
that there was and still is Ukraine because Cossacks always defended
Poland from Tatars and Turks.

There are many facts of this kind - all we have to do is look for and
show them. Let me quote Taras Shevchenko, 'Are you boasting of having
once brought down Poland? You're right... Poland fell and crushed
you..." This is my vision of policies to be pursued. For while Poland
still stands, we do also, and if Poland ceases to exist, we will be
in dire straits."



L. I.: "Thank you for your time. After such a meaningful discussion,
we are obliged to solve this difficult problem. It is important that
you all have supported our newspaper's initiative. For our history is
not just the past but the beginning of a dialog about the future."


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------


VOLYN 1943-1944, AN UNKNOWN TRAGEDY
The Terrible Interethnic Conflict Between Ukrainians and Poles in
Volyn Prepared by Serhiy Makhun, Ihor Siundiukov, Vyacheslav
Darpinyants, and Mykhailo Mazurin THE DAY Weekly Digest in Two Parts
Part I, May 13, 2003; Part II, May 27, 2003, Kyiv, Ukraine Part I:
http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2003/15/issue.htm
Part II:  http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2003/17/issue.htm
For personal and academic use only



    back

Witek thanks for your posting. Please forgive me I did not wish to imly of any
arguments; it is just an educational fact that you are presenting the group. I
am quite sure not one person is aware that trains were loaded as early as your
dates.
It was not intended as an argument. I am so glad you sent a copy to Elzunia as
well. Thank you for sharing this news with all of us.
Antoni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No offense taken, dear Antoni.

Let's exchange all experience of our short penance on this valley of sorrows, as
we can, if only for the purpose of other generations could be spared from them.
Look what's happening in Burma and in Zimabwe. Will human greed ever end?

Kind regards, Witek.


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: ANTONI KAZIMIERSKI
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:28 PM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re:yourv documents


   Witek thanks for your posting. Please forgive me I did not wish to imly of any
arguments; it is just an educational fact that you are presenting the group. I
am quite sure not one person is aware that trains were loaded as early as your
dates.
   It was not intended as an argument. I am so glad you sent a copy to Elzunia as
well. Thank you for sharing this news with all of us.
   Antoni

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Carol,

You have touched on a very interesting topic.
I don't know which part of this small earth, God's village, you presently live,
but I'd point to Canada, as being the best example of fraternity between Poles
and Ukrainians.
There was too much blood spilled over the ages, but the truth must be somewhere
in the middle.
I was born in Wolyn, which is part of Ukraine now. I dare say, that there is
probably no traces of our homestead left, but live goes on. The most important
is to forgive and start anew, as best, as two closely related, Christian nations
ought to.

Kind regards, Witek.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Carol Dove
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:18 PM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Working toward peace Ukraine & Poland


   I wanted to share this artical with the group. It looks at both sides
   with Poland & Ukraine. Quoted at the end,"For our history is not just
   the past but the beginning of a dialog about the future." If you want
   the full link just let me know. Thanks, Carol Celinski Dove

   Historical tragedies never disappear and are never forgotten. The
   terrible interethnic conflict between Ukrainians and Poles in Volyn,
   which claimed tens of thousands of human lives in 1943-1944 on two
   warring sides, was hushed up in this country for decades: even in the
   already independent 1990s, this subject seemed to be taboo.

   It is the extreme zeal with which the Polish side brought the bloody
   Volyn events into focus that forced (alas, this is the right word)
   our leadership to more or less adequately react to this in the year
   2003. All of us, Ukrainians and Poles alike, cannot possibly escape
   from the following series of extremely difficult questions that arise
   over the tragedy of sixty years ago.


   LEONID KRAVCHUK LISTENS AS DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO (RIGHT) EXPLAINS
   Photo by Mykola LAZARENKO, The Day


   Who exactly is to bear historical responsibility for a mass massacre
   of people? What are the historical roots of the tragedy? Who should
   apologize? What should the further course of Ukrainian-Polish
   relations be if historical truth is not to fall victim to cheap
   political expediency?

   The Day's round table on the Volyn events was special in that the
   answer to these (and many other) questions was sought by people well
   known throughout Ukraine, individuals whose rich lifetime experience
   allows them to see the terrible events of the past through the most
   valuable prism, that of their own deeply personal and inimitable
   perception.

   The interviewees are people born and raised in that long-suffering
   land, members of the Volyn fraternity, first President of Ukraine
   Leonid Kruchuk, People's Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola
   Zhulynsky, Serhiy Shevchuk, Lieutenant General Oleksandr Skipalsky,
   along with former ambassador of Ukraine to Poland and great poet
   Dmytro Pavlychko.

   Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, The Day:

   Larysa IVSHYNA: "Honorable Mr. President, gentlemen, I am pleased
   that you found time for this interview because it is important for
   us, members of the great Volyn fraternity, to discuss this matter. On
   the other hand, you have all held important offices and saw these
   problems at the governmental level.
   It is important to discuss this precisely from such point of view,
   not just because of a personal pain. Yet, we would like our
   conversation to focus on two points.

   First, your personal and your families' reminiscences of the 1943-
   1944 tragic events in Volyn. Each of you has heard of and knows about
   those events from your near and dear ones.

   Second, the way we must handle this history at the governmental level
   in order to build relations with our neighbors into compliance with
   the challenges of today. And one more, rather debatable, point. I
   know the way all those present here react to somebody saying that
   Ukraine is 'under protection' and needs 'advocates.'

   This was our good will to some extent: yes, we do need support, help,
   and a kind of new paternalism. But it seems to me this period is
   somewhat overdue.

   This in turn raises new points for discussion: the number
   of 'advocates,' the current condition of the state, and our new
   appraisal of ourselves; the line of behavior we would like to suggest
   to the Ukrainian elite or, if I may put it like this, what can
   eventually become the elite. These are essentially the three points I
   suggest. And, as Mr. Kravchuk holds quite a few offices in
   parliament, is a people's deputy and fraction leader, The Day still
   considers him, above all, the first President, and I want Mr.
   Kravchuk to begin the discussion."

   UKRAINIANS UNDER THE POLES

   Leonid KRAVCHUK: "The history of a nation consists of many factors,
   including its own history and the events imposed from the outside.
   Yet, the behavior of a people is always adequate to its strength,
   willpower, and capabilities. This is only natural. The history of
   every human being is part of the history of a nation and a state. So
   the behavior is not always adequate, for it depends, first of all, on
   each specific person.
   "I was born in the Rivne region and remember well the times when we
   lived, as we said, 'under the Poles.' Although I was a little boy, I
   could see what Jozef Pilsudski's policies were like. Our village was
   literally divided into two parts. One of them - the best lands, sort
   of gentry estates (folwarks) - belonged to Polish colonist landlords,
   while my parents owned just one and a half hectares, a very small
   land plot by the standards of those times. After quickly doing
   everything on their own farmstead, my parents would go together with
   the children to work for the landlord.

   I was then four or five years old, but I remember very well my mom
   and dad say, 'Never raise your hand. Don't pick cherries because the
   landlady will go wild over this.' Indeed, this was severely punished.
   And, as I recall, I was dying for a cherry or two! And this parental
   caution still lingers in my mind. I will never forget, either, that
   they called us by no other terms than louts (khamy) and cattle
   (bydlo). This was absolutely normal, and our people even referred to
   themselves this way. That was our philosophy of life.

   "When I look back on what I saw, I say it was sheer occupation. We
   have to call a spade a spade. For some want to present that situation
   as something accidental, as a return to some truth, to a better
   life... No, that was occupation, captivity, and absolute contempt for
   the Ukrainians. When what we called the reunification occurred in
   September 1939, the landlords left.

   Their lands were distributed among the landless poor. So these poor
   began to make short work of the land and the estates. Let's face
   facts: the Ukrainian poor who took over the landlords' estates failed
   to manage them properly. I think this history of those committees of
   poor peasants (komnezamy) started during the Revolution of 1917.

   I don't want to hurt anybody's feeling, but I must say that many of
   the poor were that way not only because they were deprived of
   property but because they couldn't be any different. I am sure that
   Soviet power oriented itself toward the poor precisely since the
   times of committees of poor peasants.

   This tradition continues even today. My life was associated with
   Poland, and I can affirm today it was nothing but occupation. In this
   context, while assessing the tragedy that occurred sixty years ago,
   it is very important to determine our behavior today.

   "I fully agree that what happened in Volyn in 1943-1944 is a horrible
   tragedy for the both the Ukrainian and Polish peoples. It would be a
   good idea to look at the past from the standpoint of fundamental
   values, such as freedom, statehood, nation, and people. I closely
   watch what is going on.

   We want to coordinate our position and our attitudes to the Volyn
   tragedy with Poland. But this is impossible: I'm even convinced this
   shouldn't be done.

   What we should do is learn to face the real facts of the history of
   both the Polish and Ukrainian peoples. So it would be a grave mistake
   to adjust to each other's positions.

   No matter how hard we try to assess that tragedy, we must remember
   its causes. We can view the events as struggle against occupation.
   And if we keep emphasizing that this was just the will of a, let us
   say, extremist part of the people, we will condemn - like it or not -
   the national liberation movement as such.

   And if we do so, we should think about what we are leaving to our
   descendants. Shall we tell them it is bad to fight against occupiers
   and no good to fight for independence? There are a lot of such
   questions, which in fact form the basis of a national movement.

   "I'm watching now what's happening in Warsaw. The ongoing conferences
   are undoubtedly interesting. Poland wants to mark the sixtieth
   anniversary of the Volyn tragedy on a nationwide level and put up a
   monument... Maybe Dmytro Pavlychko knows more about this, but I have
   information that the Poles want to write on their monument 'To the
   victims of OUN-UPA crimes' and to have something milder, more
   carefully worded, inscribed on the monument in Lutsk.

   If they do precisely so, we must write in reply, 'To the victims of
   Polish extremist formations in Volyn.' This would be the only correct
   approach. Otherwise, both sides should write, 'To the victims of 1943-
   1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn.' Who will then honor the memory
   of and erect a monument to the victims from our side?"

   L.I.: "Mr. Kravchuk, in 1997 Presidents Kwasniewski and Kuchma issued
   a joint statement, 'Towards Mutual Understanding and Unity,' and that
   seemed to have turned the page of reciprocal accusations and opened
   the way toward a new life, a dialog between the two peoples. Why do
   you think it is now necessary to discuss the sixtieth anniversary in
   terms of a red-letter day?
   A few years later, in 2007, there will be the anniversary of the
   Wisla (Vistula) Operation. So the whole decade will be strewn with
   this kind of jubilee. Could this be an indication of rightwing
   pressure on Poland's domestic policy?"

   L. K., "There is a National Institute of Memory in Poland which deals
   with crimes during the period of totalitarianism. Incidentally, its
   structure comprises an investigating body - a general commission for
   investigating the crimes against the Polish people. This commission
   has the right to carry out investigations, including those under the
   article on crimes against humanity.
   The investigating body's head is simultaneously an institute deputy
   director and a Deputy Prosecutor General of Poland. The general
   commission investigates crimes committed against Polish nationals,
   above all, those who resided on the territory of the former Soviet
   Union within the borders of September 17, 1939, i.e., on the
   territory of present-day Western Ukraine.

   "As of today, the commission is going through about forty cases,
   investigating, and I quote, 'the crimes of Ukrainian nationalists
   against the Polish population.' In other words, a special body has
   been doing this kind of research for more than ten years. Quite
   obviously, as I was told, a huge number of all kinds of documents has
   been accumulated during this time.

   And I am convinced the Polish establishment wants to use this
   commission and this investigation to draw certain political and moral
   conclusions from the Volyn tragedy. Unfortunately, frankly speaking,
   Ukraine isn't prepared for this. The Ukrainians have not done such
   fundamental work as the Polish have. In this case, we seem to be
   guided by emotions rather than by historical and documentary analysis.

   "And I think when the leaders - presidents or anybody else - of
   Ukraine and Poland meet, we should not forgo the historical truth and
   historical facts for the sake of friendship and the future. I am sure
   a true Pole will never approve the submissive behavior of a
   Ukrainian, no matter what office he might hold. For he is aware that
   this submissiveness will sooner or later give way to aggressiveness,
   which will be viewed again as a reproach to friends and foes alike.

   As long as Poland is going to commemorate the Volyn tragedy (we
   cannot forbid the Polish to do so, for they have made a decision to
   this effect), we must at least make our position clear. By no means
   should we look back at 'advocacy,' the gas pipeline or, say, 'eternal
   friendship...' We have already had this kind of experience. The
   Ukrainians must not give up the main thing - national dignity and
   truth for themselves and their descendants."

   THE POLISH ARE NOT QUITE PREPARED FOR A DIALOG

   L. I.: "Mr. Kravchuk, I fully agree with you. Mr. Zhulynsky, who
   should the Ukrainians pin their hopes on to have our national dignity
   upheld and our national interests served? For I haven't heard the
   self-proclaimed patriotic parties say anything on this issue."


   Mykola ZHULYNSKY: "My dear Ms. Ivshyna, I want, first of all, to
   express a word of gratitude to you and your collective for your
   persistent longtime attempts to give a comprehensive evaluation of
   what we call the Volyn Tragedy of 1943- 1944. It is very important
   that Ukraine should know the truth about these events. Regrettably,
   Ukrainians know very little about it.

   MYKOLA ZHULYNSKY


   Now some personal comments. In August 1943 our village, called
   Novosilky at the time (in Rivne oblast), was surrounded by Polish
   police and the Germans, and villagers began to run away across the
   river Styr to the villages of Tovpyzhyn and Hrabivets. Some managed
   to flee, some did not: there were machine-guns firing. Clearly, the
   operation was aimed against the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). Among
   the villagers there really were people who fought under UPA colors.

   But my father didn't fight. He was not a UPA combatant, for he had
   been in the Soviet Army and taken prisoner. Then he came back home
   and lived with our family. I was then two years old or something. He
   took me in his arms and hid by the Styr. The Polish policemen with
   dogs spotted him and took him out.

   They lined up all the men they found. They forced him to let me go.
   He told me to go home. I don't remember... Then they were taken away
   on trucks. Eight or ten men were disembarked in the woods near
   Horokhiv and shot dead without even a summary trial. The rest were
   taken to a Lutsk jail and then to a concentration camp. My father
   went through three German extermination camps: Auschwitz, Dachau, and
   Sagan. From that time until 1971 we didn't even know if he was dead
   or alive.

   "This tragedy also touched upon other relatives of mine. For example,
   Mykhailo, the son of my mother's brother, had served in the Polish
   army. When the Germans routed Poland, he was on the way home and ran
   into a Polish ambush, just a stone's throw from the village... He was
   shot down for unwillingness to fight for Poland. We don't know where
   his grave is. The other Mykola, 17, was also shot by a Polish firing
   squad near Horokhiv. The third child, a daughter, also died.

   In brief, this left two old people without three children - they
   didn't even know where the children were buried. My uncle Andriy, a
   cow herd, who informed the UPA about the approaching police and
   Germans, was caught by the Polish police: they cut out his tongue,
   gouged out his eyes, and crucified him. That was a great and horrible
   tragedy, and we undoubtedly have to remember it.

   "I would like, if you don't mind, to further develop Mr. Kravchuk's
   idea. The point is that the Poles, unlike the Ukrainians, have indeed
   made a thorough study of these problems. As a matter of fact, we are
   now in a position without arguments. Unfortunately, we have collected
   too few eyewitness reports and documentary materials. This was
   caused, above all, by the lack of access to archival, especially
   Polish, materials (this was flatly banned in the communist period).

   Now that the ban has been lifted, the truth is being revealed. It
   seems to me the Polish side failed to foresee the tide now rolling
   onto Poland. Honoring the memory of their compatriots who died in
   Volyn and elsewhere, they are not quite prepared to know the whole
   truth of which Mr. Kravchuk spoke and which we did not discuss for a
   number of reasons. It is clear, though, why we did not discuss it in
   the communist times.

   "Yet, I would like to make a somewhat unorthodox digression. In the
   early 1970s, German veterans' associations began to raise their
   heads. Although they were active, they were largely dismissed as 'a
   bunch of old people...' But, contrary to expectations, they pressed
   on. These associations have been claiming lately that Germany not
   only wiped out a lot of other peoples but also... fell victim to the
   Second World War. They mention as an example the fate of the Sudeten
   Germans.

   You know about [Czechoslovak] President Benes' decrees and the
   ongoing acute squabble between Germany and the Czech Republic. The
   Germans demand that the decrees be condemned and suggest that an anti-
   deportation center be established. But this is the problem of not
   only the Sudeten Germans but also the Germans who resided on what is
   now Polish territory.

   The Poles also found themselves not quite prepared to stem this tide.
   The point is the Germans, in fact deported from their historical
   homeland (Silesia, Pomerania, and Danzig {now ë Slask, Pomorze, and
   Gdansk -Ed.}), are now raising the question of establishing a center
   in memory of German deportees.

   Where? The Poles are already saying: perhaps in Wroclaw...This is
   quite a serious problem. The Poles think, for some reason, that they
   are already morally prepared to adequately address these problems.
   But, in my opinion, they aren't at all prepared for this. We can
   tell, for example, the story of Edvabno.

   Mr. Pavlychko knows very well that in 1941 Polish nationalists wiped
   out the whole Jewish population and plundered their property in the
   shtetl of Edvabno. Nobody said even a word about that crime until US
   and German historians took up this problem. The Poles were forced to
   launch a nationwide debate on anti-Semitism and chauvinism. We know
   how the Poles reacted..."

   Dmytro Pavlychko: "As a result, Aleksander Kwasniewski came to
   Edvabno and apologized to the Jews on behalf of the Polish people..."


   M. Z.: "The Wisla (Vistula) Operation has not been fully condemned,
   by the Polish side. Let us recall the Jaworzno concentration camp,
   where Ukrainians were not only kept but also sentenced to death and
   executed by firing squads... Why are the Germans raising the question
   of deportees? They clearly need this as compensation for the guilt
   they bear. 'For we also suffered, which somewhat assuages our crimes,
   our guilt, our pangs of conscience, etc. ...'
   We are now talking about the Volyn problems, but still to be
   discussed is Zasiannia, Kholmshchyna, and Pidliashshia, in which case
   Poland has in fact taken no steps. But this immediately raises the
   following question: why not establish a Ukrainian deportees center,
   as the Germans are raising the question of a German deportees center
   in the Sudetenland or, say, in Gdansk...?

   "The current problem is that the Ukrainians should not view the Volyn
   events as kind of a pitchfork with which the Poles are going to lift
   us so that we see the truth. The truth is terrible, but we must also
   say honestly that there were also crimes on the Ukrainian part which
   we firmly condemn. We must explain to ourselves and our people why
   that happened.

   "We have launched a debate on the SS Halychyna (Galician) Division.
   But nobody talks about the fact that there was a similar division in
   France: more Frenchmen died on the German side than on that of the
   Resistance and the forces that fought for the liberation of France
   from Nazi Germany. So there are very many serious problems here. It
   is too early to say in our discussion today that the problem has been
   done way with..."

   L. I.: "When the Poles came to hold bilateral talks on Volyn, they
   brought with them ten volumes written by a presidential staff
   commission. This is an ample piece of evidence for politicians. The
   Ukrainians came in with a thin folder: this is a matter of reproach
   for the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences, and the
   University of Volyn (I visited Lutsk last December and said, 'Dear
   colleagues, please write, we're ready to publish').
   Nobody in general cared about how the state will look until it came
   to the crunch. It is still obvious that we must understand the
   political and social backdrop of the problem of unilateral
   repentance. When we hear again the ominous phrase, ethnic
   cleansing... If the Poles did something wrong, the blame falls
   exclusively on the totalitarian regime, but when Ukraine is in
   question, charges are leveled at Ukrainian criminals. I think this
   should be a matter of general attention in Ukraine as well.

   IF TOMORROW IS TO BE SHROUDED IN HISTORICAL UNTRUTH, THERE WILL NEVER
   BE A TOMORROW

   L. I.: "And what is the attitude of Germany toward Poland and that of
   Ukraine toward Poland?"


   D. P.: "Well, whatever we say and calculate, these are our own
   Ukrainian woes. No matter how hard we try to lay the whole blame on
   the Poles, we will always bump into the Polish side which will be
   doing exactly the same. There have always been and will be two
   national truths. And we must reduce these truths to one common truth.
   It is almost impossible, but it has to be done.

   DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO


   I approve of Volodymyr Serhiychuk's book, The Tragedy of Volyn. He is
   our first historian who has collected certain archival materials.

   Ukrainian-Polish history is not drawing to a close but is only
   beginning. If we think that everything was in the past, we will never
   come to an acceptable conclusion. We had no state, we were a
   stateless nation, while the Polish had a state of their own. So they
   have an entirely different attitude toward history."

   L. I.: "But this argument has no effect on them now."


   D. P.: "I know it hasn't, but we are talking about our own argument."


   L. K.: "One word, please. I will try to answer a very interesting
   question. Why are the Poles striving so actively to observe the
   tragedy's sixtieth anniversary? Dmytro Pavlychko is right, saying
   that they have far more grievances to settle with the Germans. But
   Germany is a strong state. I think Polish rightwing forces feel that
   today's Ukraine is a politically and economically weakened state
   beset with a host of problems and in need of a guide.
   Moreover, our bureaucrats keep saying that Poland should be that
   guide. And we appreciate and exalt this to the skies and say: let
   Ukraine not emphasize the historical truth and accept softer worded
   conclusions in the name of its current interests and in the name of,
   say, future friendship with Poland.

   "I agree with Mr. Pavlychko that we should think about tomorrow. But
   if tomorrow is to be shrouded in historical untruth, there will never
   be a tomorrow. For nobody can deny the fact that in 1943 the Polish
   government-in-exile negotiated with Stalin and Western leaders that
   Volyn should be part of Poland after the war. Only after the Potsdam
   Conference was this question taken off the agenda.

   Tell me please: could the nationally-minded forces on those lands put
   up with this philosophy? Next, it was, to some extent, a Jacquerie
   because axes, pitchforks, and scythes were used... It was not
   accidental that I recalled the colonists. They took the land! The
   Ukrainians never tried to foray into the Polish lands.

   If we say now bluntly that this never happened in our history and
   that we must take all blame, then, pardon me, what will we leave
   after us in history - for our children, grandchildren, and great-
   grandchildren? What will we leave for them?

   A simple and clear thing: we are ready to start, together with the
   Poles, writing a history suitable for Poland, we are ready to team up
   with the Russians in writing a history suitable for Russia... Then
   who are we? We must not do this! I stress again: if we want mutual
   condemnation and mutual apology, it should be truly mutual.

   Now about monuments. I recalled them not by accidentally either. For
   a monument is not a book to be read with arguments in hand. It will
   stand forever: 'here are the villains, OUN-UPA.' That's all! What
   about us? We won't have anything. Then we'll say - Pavlychko is
   right - we're all criminals.

   I remember very well the times when I was a member of the Communist
   Party Central Committee: there was not a single report of the CC
   First Secretary without the phrase 'Ukrainian bourgeois nationalists,
   fierce enemies of the Ukrainian people; OUN-UPA, the trash of the
   Ukrainian people.'

   This still lingers in the heads of thousands of people - and this is
   natural because we are unable to put things in order in our own
   house. 'The Ukrainians will give in, you just have to press them a
   little. They don't know anything themselves.' Thank you, we have at
   least one book."

   "THE HEROES WHOSE GRAVES ARE IN AN ALIEN LAND WILL NEVER RISE FROM
   THEIR GRAVES"

   D. P.: "I want to say in conclusion of about what I remember..."


   L. K.: "I'm sorry, I interrupted you."


   D. P.: "I don't mind you interrupting me. You used to interrupt me in
   Verkhovna Rada but, thank God, I could also interrupt you, and then
   we proclaimed together an independent Ukrainian state. Yes, it was I
   who sat behind Leonid Makarovych Kravchuk and brought him the edited
   text of the Independence Proclamation Act on August 24, 1991.
   "So I want to tell you that all the bloody conflicts that arose
   between Poland and Ukraine never led to the victory of either side.
   Even Bohdan Khmelnytsky's victory over Poland eventually pushed
   Ukraine into the Ruin and then into Tsarist Russian captivity. Then
   Poland was partitioned also and the part of it with Warsaw was
   annexed by Russia.

   This occurred because Kazimierz the Great began to conquer Ukrainian
   lands in 1349, without understanding that a conquered land will never
   remain yours, that, as Ivan Franko said, 'the heroes whose graves are
   in an alien land will never rise from their graves.'

   I would like to note that Franko wrote an article called 'Our View of
   the Polish Question.' I can't quote it exactly, but the gist is as
   follows: we, Ukrainians, will never agree to the restoration of
   Poland in its old boundaries. Then Franko asks us directly: what is a
   realistic or, as we say now, pragmatic policy? Franko teaches us, 'we
   must always think about tomorrow.

   I fully agree with Mr. Kravchuk that Ukrainians should study down to
   the tiniest detail this tragedy and, in general, all that we had with
   the Poles: otherwise, there will be no progress. But we must also
   take into account what the great Pole Jerzy Gedroyc said, 'Let us
   renounce Lviv!' And the current Polish government has done so. So
   what do you want? To erect a monument only to worsen Ukrainian-Polish
   relations?

   For Kuchma and Kwasniewski signed in 1997 the document 'Towards
   Mutual Understanding and Unity' which calls on Poles and Ukrainians
   to unite and be the closest nations, to build a common European
   civilization.

   Besides, there were instances in our Polish-Ukrainian history, when
   great Polish figures, for example, Juliusz Slowacki, a great son of
   the Ukrainian soil and one of the greatest geniuses of Polish
   literature, said in 1835, before Shevchenko, in the words of an
   Ukrainian woman to a Polish noble, 'You, dishonest creature, won't
   know that Ukraine will arise some day.' This was said by a Pole.

   The point is some Poles served us, and we served the Poles. And, when
   Poland recently launched a debate on the SS Halychyna division and
   began to berate us, somebody recalled that this division's commander,
   Pavlo Shandruk, had been awarded Order Virtuti Militari, for he had
   been a Polish army officer and gallantly fought against the Germans
   in 1939 at the head of the 20th Brigade.

   He got this highest Polish medal from the London- based government in
   exile. This made Poland shut up. We must not only say, 'We apologize
   and pardon you,' but also search our history for and celebrate the
   events that bring us closer."

   L. K.: "The Poles must also search for the same thing."


   D. P.: "Of course, not only we. They also. For the Poles want to
   celebrate what disunites us, and we should suggest that we celebrate
   what unites us.
   For there can be no bloody justice. There will be no truth either
   here or there if we choose to erect tendentious and unrighteous
   monuments. Today we must view Poland as not a homogeneous mass but as
   a nation in which different political trends compete. I am convinced
   that victory will be won by a trend that could have once said and can
   say now, 'Our existence is unthinkable without Ukraine'."

   ----------------------------------------------------------
   ----------

   PART II: VOLYN, 1943-1944, THE UNKNOWN TRAGEDY
   The Terrible Interethnic Conflict Between Ukrainians and Poles in
   Volyn Ukraine and Poland Should Observe the Dates that Unite Us

   Prepared by Serhiy Makhun, Ihor Siundiukov,
   Vyacheslav Darpiniants, Mykhailo Mazurin
   The Day Weekly Digest in Two Parts
   Part I, May 13, 2003; Part II, May 27, 2003
   Kyiv, Ukraine The Day continues the debate on the root and essence of
   the 1943-1944 interethnic conflict in Volyn which claimed tens of
   thousands of Ukrainian and Polish lives.

   In any case, one should neither mix the historical components of this
   confrontation with the political aspects of today nor seek unilateral
   repentance from the other.

   Only the perception and unconditional acceptance of the fact that
   both the Polish and the Ukrainian sides are responsible for this
   bloodshed under the cruelest conditions of World War II will
   contribute to unbiased coverage of the events of sixty years ago.


   A UNIQUE SNAPSHOT: THE KYIV VOLYN FRATERNITY AND THE "ASSOCIATE
   MEMBER" DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO
   Photo by Mykola LAZARENKO, The Day


   Participating in the debate are prominent Volyn-born contemporary
   politicians: first President of Ukraine Leonid KRAVCHUK; People's
   Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola ZHULYNSKY and Serhiy
   SHEVCHUK; Lieutenant General Oleksandr SKIPALSKY; and former
   Ambassador of Ukraine to Poland Dmytro PAVLYCHKO.

   Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, The Day

   Larysa IVSHYNA: "I would like to ask you, General Skipalsky, a
   question. Ukrainians must distance themselves one way or another from
   the status of defendant. But, of course, we must also make some real
   steps to stop being one. Sometimes 'advocates' succumb to the
   temptation of taking advantage of the defendant's plight. But perhaps
   Ukrainians should also ask themselves the question of whether they
   can help Poland? For example, to counter a strong pressure of the
   Polish Right that could harm both Poland and Ukraine. We must also be
   the active subject of politics."


   THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE UKRAINE STRONG

   Oleksandr SKIPALSKY: "I always feel the state at my back. For there
   are government agencies supposed to do their job, defending the
   national interests of Ukraine and Ukrainians, which our first
   president emphasized. I was born in Volyn, ten kilometers away from
   the River Buh, at a farmstead, later part of the village of Vyzhhiv,
   Liuboml district. The village was burnt down by Polish Armia Krajowa
   (AK) units that crossed the Buh.
   So I have my own scores to settle with the Poles - suffice it to say
   I was born in a dugout. In 1943 the AK killed my grandmother, burnt
   down the houses of my two grandfathers, and murdered my uncle.

   They did so, although none of my close kinsmen were in OUN or UPA.
   Then what should I personally apologize for? For being left without a
   house, a grandmother, or even without three houses (the two of my
   grandfathers and one of my father)? For the fact that our farmstead
   was ruined for no apparent reason?

   From the perspective of today's international relations, I agree we
   should seek a balanced way out. We should shake hands and apologize
   for the bloodshed of sixty years ago in the interests of the future.
   I just can't understand any different answer or different action: the
   memory of my relatives will never let me. Another thing - the graves
   of innocent victims will always remind me of this.

   As to the future geopolitical changes, I want to put forward one more
   argument, one more approach. We must never forget that there is a
   shadowy force of influence in international relations, also known the
   world over as secret services. When my respected colleagues were
   discussing the problem of Polish-German, Ukrainian-Polish, and
   Ukrainian-Russian relations, I kept recalling the following.

   Why do you think should Warsaw's Russian Embassy officials drive
   across the Peremysl land to Hrubieszxw and say, 'Look, this is the
   land Stalin and Russia gave you. The Ukrainians never would have'?"

   In my view, there is also a third force involved in this, one that
   wants to create tension. Undoubtedly, there are countries that would
   not like to see a strong Ukraine. You know very well that the
   Ukrainian leadership is favoring today the idea of a single economic
   space, that there are powerful forces in this country, which claim
   that Ukraine will be part of the Union tomorrow.

   You know that a Russian geopolitical institute predicts that Ukraine
   will be partitioned into two states along the Dnipro. Reasonable
   politicians indeed, the Poles are trying to stake their claims, just
   in case, on the territory of Volyn, saying they 'have a historic
   right to these lands because they suffered there so much'."

   L. I.: "There are our graves there..."


   O. S.: "Yes, there are our graves there. The so-called anniversary
   observation or Ukraine's unilateral apology would have dire
   consequences.
   For the Polish view is as follows, 'If Ukraine is apologizing so
   readily, it will just as readily cede Volyn; it will surrender Donbas
   to Russia and Bukovyna to Romania.' The authorities concerned,
   especially the National Security and Defense Council, should work
   with subtlety and delicacy on this problem..."

   L. I.: "Gen. Skipalsky, here is a question to you and all those
   present. President Kwasniewski is under pressure from the Right. It
   is quite possible that he would behave differently but for this
   pressure. But who must pressure our politicians? I am not sure they
   also need this kind of support, these heated voices that say: do as
   you please, but we won't let you take any unilateral steps in this
   direction. Who should do this?"


   O. S.: "One must differentiate President Kwasniewski of Poland from
   many of our politicians. In spite of any private, personal or
   material interests, Kwasniewski always remains a Pole. He will go the
   whole nine yards to defend Polish interests. And he will be right to
   do so, for this is the golden rule for any true politician. We should
   help our leaders understand what the national interest is. I hope our
   meeting will to some extent help them understand this. We must learn.
   It is our tragedy that Ukraine is a young state and our governmental
   mechanism malfunctions. Let me give you some examples with concrete
   names. A person named Yaroslav Tsaruk collects archival materials
   about the Volyn tragedy in Volodymyr-Volyn district (I was elected to
   parliament from that constituency).

   When I was a deputy, I bought - with my own money - and presented him
   with a tape recorder so he could go around and record eyewitness
   reports. As a Verkhovna Rada deputy, I turned to the Cabinet of
   Ministers and local Council Chairman Klymchuk for assistance in
   publishing the materials collected.

   Only when the Poles stepped on the gas did we start to move a little
   (we really need the stick sometimes). Let Mr. Klymchuk explain today
   why he in fact turned a blind eye to this. Why couldn't he find 1000
   hryvnias to get that book published in 1995? And nobody could!"

   L. I.: "You know, Gen. Skipalsky, I think it is a good idea to name
   those who have done something like this. There is a real chance to
   tell truth at last about those events. After all, we must be aware of
   the political space we are in. But if our president, the executive
   branch, and parliamentary committee heads need educational and
   humanitarian assistance, this assistance should be rendered
   immediately, so they act in true conscience.
   For example, Mr. Pavlychko recalled some people of the Marko
   Bezruchko caliber along with Marshal Budenny, but the alumni of
   Soviet schools see no equation here. Ukraine must now come together
   on the basis of the Volyn events. For this is a unification formula
   for all Ukraine. It is not just the question of Volyn alone. This
   also applies to the Donbas, Crimea, Bukovyna... We should all spread
   knowledge about these events via party-based and non-governmental
   organizations."

   O. S.: "I am 100% certain that the so-called observation of the
   sixtieth anniversary of the Volyn events is part of a strategic,
   geopolitical, special operation aimed at isolating Ukraine. All the
   components of this operation are being controlled, supervised, and
   hyped to a large extent. If we look at each component and then at the
   whole thing, we will see who stands to gain from this. We do have
   professionals - not just scholarly consultants - capable of defending
   our national interests. We must finally become Ukrainians."
   POLISH CHAUVINISTS DO HARM NOT ONLY TO UKRAINE BUT ALSO TO POLAND

   Dmytro PAVLYCHKO: "You know only too well which forces are interested
   in stirring up enmity between us and Poles. So we must exercise
   utmost caution today. The Ukrainians should never offer unilateral
   apologies, but it is important to suggest that the Poles take a
   Christian step as they did with respect to the Germans. You mentioned
   the Russians. Russian diplomats kept saying to me at every
   reception, 'How can a khokhol (Ukrainian - Ed.) possibly be together
   with a liakh (Pole - Ed.)? It's impossible!' And today these Polish
   chauvinists are doing harm not only to Ukraine but also to their own
   Polish state.
   For nobody - NATO or any other force - but Ukraine (I told them this
   frankly in Warsaw) will help Poland if it becomes part of this
   geopolitical space without our country. Will the Danes or the
   Norwegians fight for Poland? The point is we have the government, the
   President, and the parliament. The powers that be must say on behalf
   of the Ukrainian people, 'We apologize, but you should apologize
   too.'"

   L. I.: "I heard Mr. Serhiy Shevchuk's dialog with Polish
   representative Ms. Bogumila Berdychowska on Radio Liberty. I noticed
   one thing. Mr. Shevchuk dropped a very innocent phrase, 'Poland is
   now facing some domestic problems, and this perhaps caused such an
   attitude.'
   Ms. Bogumila answered, 'Why is the gentleman so worried about Poland?
   Poland will do it on its own.' Then she said something like 'mind
   your own business.' This is quite a telling example. Have we switched
   from partnership at all levels to confrontation? Apparently, we
   ourselves have psychologically enabled certain Polish circles to hope
   that they can solve these problems just now however they want."

   D. P.: "Vice Premier Azarov has been visiting Moscow to make a deal
   on the so-called common economic space with some CIS countries. The
   Poles have interpreted this as the first signal that they can treat
   us with an air of superiority. But Ukraine also has its own interest,
   and everybody must be aware of this. Issues like this should not be
   addressed in an emotional vein."


   Mykola ZHULYNSKY: "Mrs. Ivshyna, I have long chaired the Ukrainian-
   Polish Forum and co-chaired the parliamentary group in charge of
   links with the Polish Sejm. Despite all the tragedies of my family, I
   have never told the Poles about this, for I have been doing my best
   to achieve mutual understanding and work in the name of the future.
   It is no accident that I noted the role of German war veteran
   organizations.
   Likewise, I would like to point out the role of various Polish
   compatriot organizations which have in fact assumed such public
   strength that they even forced Kwasniewski to raise this problem at a
   high governmental level. Maybe President Kwasniewski hopes he will
   manage to take the situation into his own hands and give it the right
   twist. Yet, in my view, Polish authorities are failing to keep this
   situation under control today.

   "The Polish side seems to believe that our political and governmental
   leadership is unaware of the essence of this problem, of the
   historical subtext and circumstances, and does not know what caused
   the 1943-1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn. Betting precisely on
   this, the Poles try to force the Ukrainian side to apologize and thus
   obtain compensation.

   I want to say a few words about the book Tragedy of Volyn. It was
   published with assistance of the Ukrainian- Polish Forum. You just
   can't imagine the reaction of my Polish friends: how on earth could
   the Ukrainian- Polish Forum support a book containing so many facts
   against Poland?

   I answered, 'But you don't want to know the truth! There is your
   Polish truth, and there is our Ukrainian truth, and the latter has
   not yet been fully established - it will still take some time.' Even
   if the Poles enter the EU, they won't feel comfortable unless they
   find mutual understanding with Ukraine because this understanding
   will always be on the agenda."

   WE MUST AVERT A CONFLICT BETWEEN AK AND UPA VETERANS

   Serhiy SHEVCHUK: "I would like to say a few words about my native
   Volyn. Volynians are distinguished for their patriarchal setup, sound
   judgment, kindness and open-heartedness.
   "But these good qualities are evident just up to a certain point. For
   it is quite a different thing when the question is about homeland,
   kin, and children... Poland, our good advisor and friend, has
   gradually and quite unexpectedly assumed the function of
   Ukraine's 'advocate,' looking down on this country as if we were a
   weakling. The results of this 'advocacy' are all too obvious.

   Then came the period of certain tension in Ukrainian-Polish
   relations. From May 2004 onwards, Poland will cease to pursue an
   independent foreign, economic, customs, and other policy because it
   will become part of the EU. This means Ukraine will have to denounce
   all treaties not only with Poland but also, incidentally, with the
   Baltic states in the commercial, economic, and financial areas. Those
   states are already official EU members under the Athens accords.

   In particular, this invalidates free trade treaties with the Baltic
   states and many other, including economic, agreements with Poland,
   for example, one on exporting our steel and other materials. From now
   on, Warsaw is not the sole decision- maker: Brussels will be telling
   Warsaw what to do. It seems to me the Poles foresaw this well before
   the Ukrainians did.

   Unfortunately, we are now in a period of conflicting interests.
   Whether or not we want it, Warsaw is officially trying to confront
   and downgrade relations with us. In July the Poles are going to put
   up monuments in Volyn, to say nothing about what they want to write
   on them about OUN-UPA. This is a far more serious thing than it seems.

   They officially speak about a genocide of the Polish people. But the
   word genocide quite seldom occurs in modern history. This means the
   Ukrainians will be portrayed precisely as the nation that committed
   genocide against the Polish population.

   It's easy to foresee the reaction of other states if the Polish say
   it was genocide against the Polish populace and we officially admit
   this. This will provoke a condemnation from at least the European
   community because Poland is almost a EU member. Then Poland will take
   us to the Hague court. School textbooks and scholarly studies will be
   full of references to the fact of genocide, not to mention the
   property question.

   "Mr. Siwiec claims 99 villages were burnt down by the Ukrainians.
   This is, pardon the expression, a bald-faced lie. I don't want to
   hurt Ms. Berdychowska's feelings, but this is an out-and-out lie.
   When Messrs. Siwiec and Medvedchuk were recently visiting Hayiv, near
   Kivertsy, they could see a well- cared-for cemetery as well as a
   totally unacceptable thing: a memorial stone with a list of villages
   and townships that Ukrainians allegedly burnt down. I don't know
   whether the distinguished guests really saw this stone, which
   mentions Livertsy, Kolky and many other villages which had never been
   burnt or ruined. Besides, this is written on our sovereign territory!"

   L. I.: "Who put up this memorial stone?"


   S. S.: "The Poles did."


   L. I.: "With whose permission?"


   S. S.: "With the permission of the local administration heads."


   L. I.: "Why is the Polish side insisting on maintaining direct
   contacts with bodies of local self- government?"


   S. S.: "The Poles do not stay in contact with oblast administrations
   or councils. They go to district authorities. This is simpler and
   easier. There's more than one reason why the local authorities give a
   go- ahead to do such things. 14 busloads of Armia Krajowa combatants
   were to have come to attend the unveiling of this monument. They
   never came. I was approached by our UPA veterans who said to me: if
   they come, we'll also come - on foot without any buses - but armed
   with pitchforks and gas pistols.
   We then resorted to the following stratagem: we sealed the border for
   two days, so the bussed Polish combatants stood around and eventually
   left. We thus managed to ward off a conflict between the veterans.
   And I am not sure there will be no other similar or even more serious
   conflicts between AK and UPA combatants.

   "Incidentally, to emphasize that Volynians are not as bellicose as
   the Poles claim they are, I would like to give another, perhaps also
   interesting, fact. You know that Wehrmacht and Volyn Red Army
   veterans have been establishing relations of late. They meet each
   other, travel to Germany, and the Germans come visit us. I once
   witnessed a very interesting thing. When these white-haired and war-
   crippled veterans gathered at a table in Turiysk, one German
   said, 'Here, near Turiysk, I fought on this side of the river.' A Red
   Army man replied, 'But I also fought and fired in that direction!'

   The German veteran says, 'You know, you might have been shooting at
   me; look, I was wounded in the left hand.' And he showed his two
   remaining fingers. There was a pause. Then the German found what to
   say, 'But I still have the right hand to hold out to you.' They shook
   hands and hugged each other! Will UPA and Armia Krajowa veterans ever
   come to this? I don't know. Still, I would like them to."

   "WHOEVER LIBERATES HIMSELF WILL BE FREE, WHOEVER IS LIBERATED BY
   SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE DOOMED TO ENTHRALMENT..."

   Leonid KRAVCHUK: "We are not discussing today the problem of
   Operation Wi s ? la. And rightly so. For, unlike the Volyn tragedy,
   the Wisla problem is not a domestic political problem; it came up
   after Nikita Khrushchev signed an agreement with the Polish Committee
   of National Liberation.
   My perception is that if Poland condemns the Wisla Operation (I have
   heard about this), President Kwasniewski might as well have said in
   his letter to the conference, 'Let's first cancel the brutal decision
   made by Khrushchev and the Polish government.' What's the problem?

   The point is that far from all Poles share the viewpoint that the Wi
   s ? la Operation was really an unfair and brutal action against the
   Ukrainians. In any case, nobody from the Polish side has made an
   official statement to this effect."

   D. P.: "Yes. The Senate has condemned the Wi s ? la Operation. I
   emphasize: the Senate, not the whole Sejm. So this condemnation is
   not much of a consequence, it does not figure in any documents.
   Still, we must mention this step."


   L. K.: "But could the Polish president make a relevant statement on
   this matter? He does have the right to do so. But, instead of making
   a political statement, Kwasniewski wrote a letter..."


   M. Z.: "In which he did not apologize to the Ukrainians but only
   expressed his sympathy..."


   L. K.: "He expressed his sympathy but did not say he condemned the Wi
   s ? la Operation. He wrote this operation should be condemned. But
   when and by whom? The emphases put in this letter raised many an
   eyebrow, so many that it appears as if Poland were innocent. But the
   truth is that the Polish government must take all the blame for the
   Wisla affair.
   While, quite frankly, both sides are to blame for the Volyn events,
   the Wisla Operation is put on the conscience of one side only. Can we
   forget about the concentration camp, where 4,000 Ukrainian died and
   only 186 survived? Nor should we forget about other problems still to
   be solved, such as loss of property."

   S. S.: "Ukraine also saw a deportation, the deportation of Crimean
   Tatars. Our state has adopted an absolutely humane attitude toward
   this. Incidentally, Europe does not appreciate this. More than
   300,000 Crimean Tatars have come back. The state has given them land.
   Ukraine renders them as much assistance as it can and has even
   granted them clearly defined representation in governmental bodies."


   L. K.: "Although it is not Ukraine but the USSR, a different state,
   that deported the Crimean Tatars."


   S. S.: "The Poles have only hinted at an apology for the Wi s ? la
   Operation, but we take this as a very big step forward..."


   L. K.: "Now look, Kuchma is supposed to apologize, while Kwasniewski
   has not even begged our pardon for the Wi s ? la affair. This is a
   proven fact!"


   M. Z.: "Mr. Kravchuk, all this began when you were president. It's
   your government that began to pursue a very well-considered policy
   toward the Crimean Tatars. And the Council of Europe was with us, and
   OSCE High Commissioner Max van der Stoel came, and you received him."


   L. K.: "We also allowed Germans to return to Ukraine..."


   M. Z.: "And all the Europeans saw that Ukraine was the only state
   that could address so humanely the problem of ethnic, especially
   repressed, minorities.
   Let's consider the following question. Verkhovna Rada had just begun
   to show a more friendly climate, it was already possible to move the
   issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, a law had been drawn up... And
   suddenly the Volyn problem arose. Moreover, emphasis is being laid on
   alleged OUN-UPA crimes. I want to support General Skipalsky's
   position: this is all big-time politics.

   The aim is, first, to keep Ukraine from restoring historical justice
   and recognizing UPA a combatant; second, to raise these problems and
   leave Europe with the problem of the deportation of Ukrainians from
   Kholmshchyna and Pidliashshia; third, the prospects. Poland will
   enter the European Union, which in fact solves the problem of borders.

   If, for example, Ukraine just as quickly got the opportunity of
   joining the EU, then there would be no border as such between Poland
   and Ukraine, and the primordial Ukrainian territories we are talking
   about would belong to Europe as well as to Ukraine because the
   Ukrainians have a still more legitimate right to return there. This
   is also a serious problem which neither we nor the Poles are raising.

   But in this case European borders become a purely formalistic
   problem, with humanitarian values, culture, etc., coming to the fore.
   Culture is already a factor that shapes the European theater. And we
   should have already been taking a quite active part in this dialog. I
   think there are some other underlying reasons why we are unable today
   to feel or find the root causes of this very difficult problem.
   Indeed, we should have studied it."

   L. I.: "So the Volyn events are just the tip of an iceberg..."
   THE VOLYN QUADRANGLE: WARSAW-KYIV-BERLIN-MOSCOW

   D. P.: "When I was still in Poland, some respected Polish newspapers
   began to print articles critical of Kwasniewski, Geremek, and then
   the next foreign minister and suggesting that Poland should not side
   with Ukraine.
   Yet, Kwasniewski always stressed that Poland's Eastern policy is
   oriented toward Ukraine, a strategic partner and ally. This position
   gradually came under fire. Why? Because one has to make friends. Who
   with? With Russia! In the East, Poland's main partner is Russia, not
   Ukraine, Kwasniewski's critics said.

   Step by step, this idea attracted some Poles and Polish politicians
   (actually this is an old idea going back to Roman Dmowski and best
   represented in the Communist period by one Boleslaw Piasecki, leader
   of the prewar fascist Polish Falange who later made a deal with the
   Soviets and, as head of the Pax Publishing House, died the richest
   man in People's Poland - Ed.). Meanwhile, this is in essence an anti-
   Polish idea.

   There have always been two peoples, the Ukrainian and Polish, between
   Russia and Germany. They have fought each other, and both Germans and
   Russians were first of all interested in this. In 1943 the Gestapo
   would set Polish guerrillas against the Ukrainians, give them lists
   of UPA fighters, and the Poles would then kill real Ukrainian
   patriots.

   Our general Skipalsky noted very shrewdly that the Volyn tragedy was
   not only the result of the pain and the feeling of revenge that the
   Ukrainians had against the Poles. It is also the result of a
   provocation by two states.

   Of course, today's Russia and Germany are not what they used to be,
   but there are certain forces that strive to turn the clock back and
   set again Ukraine against Poland and Poland against Ukraine.

   And we should not give into this with an emotional outburst: look,
   they demand repentance from us. Far from all the Poles demand this
   repentance; this demand emanates from the previously mentioned fact-
   finding commissions.

   We should organize a meeting under the Polish-Ukrainian Forum
   auspices. The Volyn problem should be raised in our parliament - if
   not at a plenary session, then at least in commissions.

   Please raise this issue, gentlemen. You are people's deputies after
   all. Let us begin a parliamentary discussion on this issue. This
   problem should be discussed in parliament, not only in an editorial
   office. And let our president voice his views."

   S. S.: "Above all, I'd like to say there was, as Academician
   Zhulynsky recalls, a statement made by the NDP faction. Then there
   was a good chance to discuss these issues, even without calling them
   Volyn massacre. There was a draft resolution proposed by Yuliya
   Tymoshenko, Teren, and Bilorus about holding parliamentary hearings
   on the deportation of Ukrainians from Kholmshchyna and Lemkivshchyna.
   But it was voted down."


   L. I.: "Parliamentary hearings provide, on the one hand, a good
   opportunity to show a firm position if it really exists. But, on the
   other hand, this can also be quite a dangerous thing. It is one thing
   if you manage to capture the attention of this audience. I am still
   afraid that this could be quite a risky undertaking.
   And, frankly, I would like our current discussion, which is sure to
   be published as fully as possible, to end with a certain number of
   proposals to the legislative and executive branches. If we fail to
   get back to the issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, we will miss
   our chance, because, in my view, this will mean blatant injustice to
   the Ukrainian nation's golden stock, the people who risked their
   lives and took part in the liberation struggle."

   WE MUST UPHOLD OUR OWN VISION OF HISTORY

   L. K.: "We have the Volyn and the Rivne compatriot associations... I
   suggest we get together and, say, offer our viewpoint on the Volyn
   tragedy's anniversary. First, there must be days of mourning or days
   of delegation exchange... Secondly, we could draw up, if not a
   document then at least a number of items for a declaration or a
   memorandum on the Volyn tragedy.
   And the main idea not to be missed: under no circumstances should we
   allow Ukraine and our national dignity to be humiliated and the truth
   to be distorted.

   We must learn to live with the truth that exists, not with one that
   we would like to see in the name of some abstract goals. If we are
   unable today to stand economically or politically abreast with, say,
   Russia, we must at l east be able to defend our dignity. We must
   uphold our own vision of history and stand up for ourselves in spite
   of any lucrative dividends."

   D. P.: "I support Mr. Kravchuk but still want to note again: the
   Volyn tragedy is a common tragedy that requires reciprocal apologies.
   As to proposals, I think, first, that a statement could be made on
   behalf of not only the Volyn group but also the deputies making up
   part of the Polish-Ukrainian Parliamentary Group."


   M. Z.: "Jan Bira, Henryk Wxjec and I have decided to draw up a joint
   declaration of the Polish Sejm and the Ukrainian parliament."


   D. P.: "This can be a laconic statement: a common tragedy with mutual
   apologies. That's all. Otherwise we will be never able to break the
   vicious circle. I have already said our history is full of facts that
   bring us closer to each other, that enable us to claim that Poland
   and Ukraine have been friends, not only foes. We fought together, for
   example, in the battles of Grunwald, Warsaw, and Zamo ? s ? c... In
   1945, well after the Volyn tragedy, UPA and AK jointly liberated camp
   prisoners in Hrubieszxw. This means there were also individuals who
   cherished the unity of our peoples.
   For instance, the Poles feel respect for Petliura. The point is that
   Petliura said to them in a complicated situation, 'Take lands as far
   as the Zbruch but save Kyiv.' The Poles just misunderstood his
   message and agreed to sign the Riga Treaty of 1921. That was in fact
   the third partition of Ukraine by Warsaw and Moscow, and it is worth
   reminding the Poles of such things. They partitioned us too many
   times for us to forget it.

   Yet, at the same time, we must say we believe in those Poles who
   understand that they need Ukraine and that high-profile campaigns in
   the year of the Volyn tragedy anniversary, erection of monuments,
   etc., are anti- Polish actions in the long run. Poland is strong in
   that there was and still is Ukraine because Cossacks always defended
   Poland from Tatars and Turks.

   There are many facts of this kind - all we have to do is look for and
   show them. Let me quote Taras Shevchenko, 'Are you boasting of having
   once brought down Poland? You're right... Poland fell and crushed
   you..." This is my vision of policies to be pursued. For while Poland
   still stands, we do also, and if Poland ceases to exist, we will be
   in dire straits."

   L. I.: "Thank you for your time. After such a meaningful discussion,
   we are obliged to solve this difficult problem. It is important that
   you all have supported our newspaper's initiative. For our history is
   not just the past but the beginning of a dialog about the future."

   ----------------------------------------------------------
   ----------

   VOLYN 1943-1944, AN UNKNOWN TRAGEDY
   The Terrible Interethnic Conflict Between Ukrainians and Poles in
   Volyn Prepared by Serhiy Makhun, Ihor Siundiukov, Vyacheslav
   Darpinyants, and Mykhailo Mazurin THE DAY Weekly Digest in Two Parts
   Part I, May 13, 2003; Part II, May 27, 2003, Kyiv, Ukraine Part I:
   http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2003/15/issue.htm
   Part II: http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2003/17/issue.htm
   For personal and academic use only


   back










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http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070923/COMMENTARY/10\
9230014


  Somber anniversaries, chances to reconcile



Notwithstanding that a Memorial to the Victims of Communism was unveiled in
Washington, DC, in June 2007, the Gulag is fast slipping into oblivion. The
Russians have destroyed all but one of the Gulag Archipelago camps, of which
there had been hundreds, including the most barbarous ones in Kolyma and
Solovki.

The only camp that still stands in all its infamous glory is located in the
Urals. It survived almost by accident. In the 1990s, when the momentum of
perestroika was still on, a museum commemorating the victims was built on camp
grounds. In Vladimir Putin's Russia, it seemed awkward to destroy the camp that
included a museum; and thus the Perm labor camp No. 35 remained a lonely
monument to communism's way of dealing with dissent. But who goes to see Perm?
Who knows about Perm except a few academic specialists?

The forest of Katyn in western Russia resonates better with world memory than
Perm, though it devoured fewer victims: "only" 20,000 Polish officers, all
prisoners of war, brought there surreptitiously at night, truckload after
truckload, and shot in the back of the head as they were marched toward the
carefully hidden ditches that became their graves.

Katyn was one of three places where these murders took place. It gained
notoriety owing to one of history's bitter ironies. The Katyn graves were
discovered by the Germans in 1942, during their occupation of western portions
of Soviet Russia. The Germans, ever eager to score propaganda points, waited to
announce the discovery until April 1943, when the "liquidation" of the Warsaw
Ghetto was to begin and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising broke out. At that point, the
Germans brought to the Katyn mass graves the International Red Cross and the
world press. Many pictures were taken and published worldwide. The Nazis hoped
to divert the world's attention from what they were about to do in Warsaw.

Amid all this stood the Poles, whose country had to endure Nazi death camps in
the west, and the Soviet Gulag in the east. Katyn was just an episode in this
grim competition of atrocities.

It was an episode, but it has remained an indelible part of Polish memory. On
Sept. 17, or the 68th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland, Polish
President Lech Kaczynski visited Katyn with pomp and ceremony. For the first
time, the Russian government agreed to such a public manifestation of grief by
the Polish head of state accompanied by many descendants of the victims.

Coincidentally, the Oscar-winning Polish film director Andrzej Wajda made a film
about Katyn. The film premiered the same day, Sept. 17, in Warsaw's Grand
Theater. Mr. Wajda's father was among the officers shot by the Soviets in 1940.
Mr. Wajda dedicated his film to his father and his mother, who for years hoped
against hope her husband would return from Soviet captivity. The final scene of
the movie lasts 20 minutes, and it depicts the laborious process of killing the
Polish captives.

There is a positive lesson in all this. At the Katyn cemetery, President
Kaczynski made an appeal for Polish-Russian reconciliation. From his speech, it
became apparent he did not go to Katyn to complain but to reconcile. Much bad
blood exists between Poles and Russians, and it will take patience, forgiveness
and wisdom to lay the past to rest. Mr. Kaczynski made the first step.

Russia has been friendly with very few of its neighbors. In fact, over the last
century Russia has been at knife's end with virtually all of them, though at
different times. It is in Russia's and the world's interest to seize the
opportunities, however small, to achieve genuine reconciliation with the
countries that border Russia and to place grievances in history books instead of
government portals such as inosmi.ru.

In European history, Polish-Russian relations have mattered more than Poland's
relative weakness might suggest. If the two countries follow up on Mr.
Kaczynski's initiative, their relations may begin a psychological peace in the
region.

The Gulag and Katyn should not be forgotten, but they should not remain
potential brush fires. It is a measure of maturity of a great power like Russia
to be able to live with its neighbors by means other than intimidation. It
remains to be seen whether Russian statecraft will rise to the task.

EWA THOMPSON

Ewa Thompson wrote "The Katyn Massacre and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the
Soviet-Nazi Propaganda War" for "World War II and the Soviet People," edited by
John Garrard (St. Martin's, 1993).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Witold,

I was born and raised in the USA. I spent my younger
years arguing with my Dad over politics. Funny thing
is, it was the rest of the world. Dad could never talk
of Poland and his past. I live on a farm in Bolton,
Connecticut with my husband and 3 of my four children.
My oldest son is one town over and has his wife and my
beautiful grandson.

My family also was from Wolyn.
Compensation would not be the land it would be a % of
the value 1940 total worth/or it could even come down
to a document that your family resided at that
location. In our files are the applications for the
deadline. If you search on line this is also for
personal property, your church loss of wages from
Russia is another story.

Another thing to think about is where the money comes
from. This is not just Poland's money. I know alot of
the families that stayed were already compensated by
property that was Germany. In that case they are not
able to recieve more.

Just wanted to give you a heads up. Carol Celinska
Dove
---

WITOLD SZYMANSKI <witold.szymanski@...>
wrote:

> Dear Carol,
>
> You have touched on a very interesting topic.
> I don't know which part of this small earth, God's
> village, you presently live, but I'd point to
> Canada, as being the best example of fraternity
> between Poles and Ukrainians.
> There was too much blood spilled over the ages, but
> the truth must be somewhere in the middle.
> I was born in Wolyn, which is part of Ukraine now. I
> dare say, that there is probably no traces of our
> homestead left, but live goes on. The most important
> is to forgive and start anew, as best, as two
> closely related, Christian nations ought to.
>
> Kind regards, Witek.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Carol Dove
>   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:18 PM
>   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Working toward peace
> Ukraine & Poland
>
>
>   I wanted to share this artical with the group. It
> looks at both sides
>   with Poland & Ukraine. Quoted at the end,"For our
> history is not just
>   the past but the beginning of a dialog about the
> future." If you want
>   the full link just let me know. Thanks, Carol
> Celinski Dove
>
>   Historical tragedies never disappear and are never
> forgotten. The
>   terrible interethnic conflict between Ukrainians
> and Poles in Volyn,
>   which claimed tens of thousands of human lives in
> 1943-1944 on two
>   warring sides, was hushed up in this country for
> decades: even in the
>   already independent 1990s, this subject seemed to
> be taboo.
>
>   It is the extreme zeal with which the Polish side
> brought the bloody
>   Volyn events into focus that forced (alas, this is
> the right word)
>   our leadership to more or less adequately react to
> this in the year
>   2003. All of us, Ukrainians and Poles alike,
> cannot possibly escape
>   from the following series of extremely difficult
> questions that arise
>   over the tragedy of sixty years ago.
>
>
>   LEONID KRAVCHUK LISTENS AS DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO
> (RIGHT) EXPLAINS
>   Photo by Mykola LAZARENKO, The Day
>
>
>   Who exactly is to bear historical responsibility
> for a mass massacre
>   of people? What are the historical roots of the
> tragedy? Who should
>   apologize? What should the further course of
> Ukrainian-Polish
>   relations be if historical truth is not to fall
> victim to cheap
>   political expediency?
>
>   The Day's round table on the Volyn events was
> special in that the
>   answer to these (and many other) questions was
> sought by people well
>   known throughout Ukraine, individuals whose rich
> lifetime experience
>   allows them to see the terrible events of the past
> through the most
>   valuable prism, that of their own deeply personal
> and inimitable
>   perception.
>
>   The interviewees are people born and raised in
> that long-suffering
>   land, members of the Volyn fraternity, first
> President of Ukraine
>   Leonid Kruchuk, People's Deputies of Ukraine,
> Academician Mykola
>   Zhulynsky, Serhiy Shevchuk, Lieutenant General
> Oleksandr Skipalsky,
>   along with former ambassador of Ukraine to Poland
> and great poet
>   Dmytro Pavlychko.
>
>   Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, The Day:
>
>   Larysa IVSHYNA: "Honorable Mr. President,
> gentlemen, I am pleased
>   that you found time for this interview because it
> is important for
>   us, members of the great Volyn fraternity, to
> discuss this matter. On
>   the other hand, you have all held important
> offices and saw these
>   problems at the governmental level.
>   It is important to discuss this precisely from
> such point of view,
>   not just because of a personal pain. Yet, we would
> like our
>   conversation to focus on two points.
>
>   First, your personal and your families'
> reminiscences of the 1943-
>   1944 tragic events in Volyn. Each of you has heard
> of and knows about
>   those events from your near and dear ones.
>
>   Second, the way we must handle this history at the
> governmental level
>   in order to build relations with our neighbors
> into compliance with
>   the challenges of today. And one more, rather
> debatable, point. I
>   know the way all those present here react to
> somebody saying that
>   Ukraine is 'under protection' and needs
> 'advocates.'
>
>   This was our good will to some extent: yes, we do
> need support, help,
>   and a kind of new paternalism. But it seems to me
> this period is
>   somewhat overdue.
>
>   This in turn raises new points for discussion: the
> number
>   of 'advocates,' the current condition of the
> state, and our new
>   appraisal of ourselves; the line of behavior we
> would like to suggest
>   to the Ukrainian elite or, if I may put it like
> this, what can
>   eventually become the elite. These are essentially
> the three points I
>   suggest. And, as Mr. Kravchuk holds quite a few
> offices in
>   parliament, is a people's deputy and fraction
> leader, The Day still
>   considers him, above all, the first President, and
> I want Mr.
>   Kravchuk to begin the discussion."
>
>   UKRAINIANS UNDER THE POLES
>
>   Leonid KRAVCHUK: "The history of a nation consists
> of many factors,
>   including its own history and the events imposed
> from the outside.
>   Yet, the behavior of a people is always adequate
> to its strength,
>   willpower, and capabilities. This is only natural.
> The history of
>   every human being is part of the history of a
> nation and a state. So
>   the behavior is not always adequate, for it
> depends, first of all, on
>   each specific person.
>   "I was born in the Rivne region and remember well
> the times when we
>   lived, as we said, 'under the Poles.' Although I
> was a little boy, I
>   could see what Jozef Pilsudski's policies were
> like. Our village was
>   literally divided into two parts. One of them -
> the best lands, sort
>   of gentry estates (folwarks) - belonged to Polish
> colonist landlords,
>   while my parents owned just one and a half
> hectares, a very small
>   land plot by the standards of those times. After
> quickly doing
>   everything on their own farmstead, my parents
> would go together with
>   the children to work for the landlord.
>
>   I was then four or five years old, but I remember
> very well my mom
>   and dad say, 'Never raise your hand. Don't pick
> cherries because the
>   landlady will go wild over this.' Indeed, this was
> severely punished.
>   And, as I recall, I was dying for a cherry or two!
> And this parental
>   caution still lingers in my mind. I will never
> forget, either, that
>   they called us by no other terms than louts
> (khamy) and cattle
>   (bydlo). This was absolutely normal, and our
> people even referred to
>   themselves this way. That was our philosophy of
> life.
>
>   "When I look back on what I saw, I say it was
> sheer occupation. We
>   have to call a spade a spade. For some want to
> present that situation
>   as something accidental, as a return to some
> truth, to a better
>   life... No, that was occupation, captivity, and
> absolute contempt for
>   the Ukrainians. When what we called the
> reunification occurred in
>   September 1939, the landlords left.
>
>   Their lands were distributed among the landless
> poor. So these poor
>   began to make short work of the land and the
> estates. Let's face
>   facts: the Ukrainian poor who took over the
> landlords' estates failed
>   to manage them properly. I think this history of
> those committees of
>   poor peasants (komnezamy) started during the
> Revolution of 1917.
>
>   I don't want to hurt anybody's feeling, but I must
> say that many of
>   the poor were that way not only because they were
> deprived of
>   property but because they couldn't be any
> different. I am sure that
>   Soviet power oriented itself toward the poor
> precisely since the
>   times of committees of poor peasants.
>
>   This tradition continues even today. My life was
> associated with
>   Poland, and I can affirm today it was nothing but
> occupation. In this
>   context, while assessing the tragedy that occurred
> sixty years ago,
>   it is very important to determine our behavior
> today.
>
>   "I fully agree that what happened in Volyn in
> 1943-1944 is a horrible
>   tragedy for the both the Ukrainian and Polish
> peoples. It would be a
>   good idea to look at the past from the standpoint
> of fundamental
>   values, such as freedom, statehood, nation, and
> people. I closely
>   watch what is going on.
>
>   We want to coordinate our position and our
> attitudes to the Volyn
>   tragedy with Poland. But this is impossible: I'm
> even convinced this
>   shouldn't be done.
>
>   What we should do is learn to face the real facts
> of the history of
>   both the Polish and Ukrainian peoples. So it would
> be a grave mistake
>   to adjust to each other's positions.
>
>   No matter how hard we try to assess that tragedy,
> we must remember
>   its causes. We can view the events as struggle
> against occupation.
>   And if we keep emphasizing that this was just the
> will of a, let us
>   say, extremist part of the people, we will condemn
> - like it or not -
>   the national liberation movement as such.
>
>   And if we do so, we should think about what we are
> leaving to our
>   descendants. Shall we tell them it is bad to fight
> against occupiers
>   and no good to fight for independence? There are a
> lot of such
>   questions, which in fact form the basis of a
> national movement.
>
>   "I'm watching now what's happening in Warsaw. The
> ongoing conferences
>   are undoubtedly interesting. Poland wants to mark
> the sixtieth
>   anniversary of the Volyn tragedy on a nationwide
> level and put up a
>   monument... Maybe Dmytro Pavlychko knows more
> about this, but I have
>   information that the Poles want to write on their
> monument 'To the
>   victims of OUN-UPA crimes' and to have something
> milder, more
>   carefully worded, inscribed on the monument in
> Lutsk.
>
>   If they do precisely so, we must write in reply,
> 'To the victims of
>   Polish extremist formations in Volyn.' This would
> be the only correct
>   approach. Otherwise, both sides should write, 'To
> the victims of 1943-
>   1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn.' Who will
> then honor the memory
>   of and erect a monument to the victims from our
> side?"
>
>   L.I.: "Mr. Kravchuk, in 1997 Presidents
> Kwasniewski and Kuchma issued
>   a joint statement, 'Towards Mutual Understanding
> and Unity,' and that
>   seemed to have turned the page of reciprocal
> accusations and opened
>   the way toward a new life, a dialog between the
> two peoples. Why do
>   you think it is now necessary to discuss the
> sixtieth anniversary in
>   terms of a red-letter day?
>   A few years later, in 2007, there will be the
> anniversary of the
>   Wisla (Vistula) Operation. So the whole decade
> will be strewn with
>   this kind of jubilee. Could this be an indication
> of rightwing
>   pressure on Poland's domestic policy?"
>
>   L. K., "There is a National Institute of Memory in
> Poland which deals
>   with crimes during the period of totalitarianism.
> Incidentally, its
>   structure comprises an investigating body - a
> general commission for
>   investigating the crimes against the Polish
> people. This commission
>   has the right to carry out investigations,
> including those under the
>   article on crimes against humanity.
>   The investigating body's head is simultaneously an
> institute deputy
>   director and a Deputy Prosecutor General of
> Poland. The general
>   commission investigates crimes committed against
> Polish nationals,
>   above all, those who resided on the territory of
> the former Soviet
>   Union within the borders of September 17, 1939,
> i.e., on the
>   territory of present-day Western Ukraine.
>
>   "As of today, the commission is going through
> about forty cases,
>   investigating, and I quote, 'the crimes of
> Ukrainian nationalists
>   against the Polish population.' In other words, a
> special body has
>   been doing this kind of research for more than ten
> years. Quite
>   obviously, as I was told, a huge number of all
> kinds of documents has
>   been accumulated during this time.
>
>   And I am convinced the Polish establishment wants
> to use this
>   commission and this investigation to draw certain
> political and moral
>   conclusions from the Volyn tragedy. Unfortunately,
> frankly speaking,
>   Ukraine isn't prepared for this. The Ukrainians
> have not done such
>   fundamental work as the Polish have. In this case,
> we seem to be
>   guided by emotions rather than by historical and
> documentary analysis.
>
>   "And I think when the leaders - presidents or
> anybody else - of
>   Ukraine and Poland meet, we should not forgo the
> historical truth and
>   historical facts for the sake of friendship and
> the future. I am sure
>   a true Pole will never approve the submissive
> behavior of a
>   Ukrainian, no matter what office he might hold.
> For he is aware that
>   this submissiveness will sooner or later give way
> to aggressiveness,
>   which will be viewed again as a reproach to
> friends and foes alike.
>
>   As long as Poland is going to commemorate the
> Volyn tragedy (we
>   cannot forbid the Polish to do so, for they have
> made a decision to
>   this effect), we must at least make our position
> clear. By no means
>   should we look back at 'advocacy,' the gas
> pipeline or, say, 'eternal
>   friendship...' We have already had this kind of
> experience. The
>   Ukrainians must not give up the main thing -
> national dignity and
>   truth for themselves and their descendants."
>
>   THE POLISH ARE NOT QUITE PREPARED FOR A DIALOG
>
>   L. I.: "Mr. Kravchuk, I fully agree with you. Mr.
> Zhulynsky, who
>   should the Ukrainians pin their hopes on to have
> our national dignity
>   upheld and our national interests served? For I
> haven't heard the
>   self-proclaimed patriotic parties say anything on
> this issue."
>
>
>   Mykola ZHULYNSKY: "My dear Ms. Ivshyna, I want,
> first of all, to
>   express a word of gratitude to you and your
> collective for your
>   persistent longtime attempts to give a
> comprehensive evaluation of
>   what we call the Volyn Tragedy of 1943- 1944. It
> is very important
>   that Ukraine should know the truth about these
> events. Regrettably,
>   Ukrainians know very little about it.
>
>   MYKOLA ZHULYNSKY
>
>
>   Now some personal comments. In August 1943 our
> village, called
>   Novosilky at the time (in Rivne oblast), was
> surrounded by Polish
>   police and the Germans, and villagers began to run
> away across the
>   river Styr to the villages of Tovpyzhyn and
> Hrabivets. Some managed
>   to flee, some did not: there were machine-guns
> firing. Clearly, the
>   operation was aimed against the Ukrainian
> Insurgent Army (UPA). Among
>   the villagers there really were people who fought
> under UPA colors.
>
>   But my father didn't fight. He was not a UPA
> combatant, for he had
>   been in the Soviet Army and taken prisoner. Then
> he came back home
>   and lived with our family. I was then two years
> old or something. He
>   took me in his arms and hid by the Styr. The
> Polish policemen with
>   dogs spotted him and took him out.
>
>   They lined up all the men they found. They forced
> him to let me go.
>   He told me to go home. I don't remember... Then
> they were taken away
>   on trucks. Eight or ten men were disembarked in
> the woods near
>   Horokhiv and shot dead without even a summary
> trial. The rest were
>   taken to a Lutsk jail and then to a concentration
> camp. My father
>   went through three German extermination camps:
> Auschwitz, Dachau, and
>   Sagan. From that time until 1971 we didn't even
> know if he was dead
>   or alive.
>
>   "This tragedy also touched upon other relatives of
> mine. For example,
>   Mykhailo, the son of my mother's brother, had
> served in the Polish
>   army. When the Germans routed Poland, he was on
> the way home and ran
>   into a Polish ambush, just a stone's throw from
> the village... He was
>   shot down for unwillingness to fight for Poland.
> We don't know where
>   his grave is. The other Mykola, 17, was also shot
> by a Polish firing
>   squad near Horokhiv. The third child, a daughter,
> also died.
>
>   In brief, this left two old people without three
> children - they
>   didn't even know where the children were buried.
> My uncle Andriy, a
>   cow herd, who informed the UPA about the
> approaching police and
>   Germans, was caught by the Polish police: they cut
> out his tongue,
>   gouged out his eyes, and crucified him. That was a
> great and horrible
>   tragedy, and we undoubtedly have to remember it.
>
>   "I would like, if you don't mind, to further
> develop Mr. Kravchuk's
>   idea. The point is that the Poles, unlike the
> Ukrainians, have indeed
>   made a thorough study of these problems. As a
> matter of fact, we are
>   now in a position without arguments.
> Unfortunately, we have collected
>   too few eyewitness reports and documentary
> materials. This was
>   caused, above all, by the lack of access to
> archival, especially
>   Polish, materials (this was flatly banned in the
> communist period).
>
>   Now that the ban has been lifted, the truth is
> being revealed. It
>   seems to me the Polish side failed to foresee the
> tide now rolling
>   onto Poland. Honoring the memory of their
> compatriots who died in
>   Volyn and elsewhere, they are not quite prepared
> to know the whole
>   truth of which Mr. Kravchuk spoke and which we did
> not discuss for a
>   number of reasons. It is clear, though, why we did
> not discuss it in
>   the communist times.
>
>   "Yet, I would like to make a somewhat unorthodox
> digression. In the
>   early 1970s, German veterans' associations began
> to raise their
>   heads. Although they were active, they were
> largely dismissed as 'a
>   bunch of old people...' But, contrary to
> expectations, they pressed
>   on. These associations have been claiming lately
> that Germany not
>   only wiped out a lot of other peoples but also...
> fell victim to the
>   Second World War. They mention as an example the
> fate of the Sudeten
>   Germans.
>
>   You know about [Czechoslovak] President Benes'
> decrees and the
>   ongoing acute squabble between Germany and the
> Czech Republic. The
>   Germans demand that the decrees be condemned and
> suggest that an anti-
>   deportation center be established. But this is the
> problem of not
>   only the Sudeten Germans but also the Germans who
> resided on what is
>   now Polish territory.
>
>   The Poles also found themselves not quite prepared
> to stem this tide.
>   The point is the Germans, in fact deported from
> their historical
>   homeland (Silesia, Pomerania, and Danzig {now ë
> Slask, Pomorze, and
>   Gdansk -Ed.}), are now raising the question of
> establishing a center
>   in memory of German deportees.
>
>   Where? The Poles are already saying: perhaps in
> Wroclaw...This is
>   quite a serious problem. The Poles think, for some
> reason, that they
>   are already morally prepared to adequately address
> these problems.
>   But, in my opinion, they aren't at all prepared
> for this. We can
>   tell, for example, the story of Edvabno.
>
>   Mr. Pavlychko knows very well that in 1941 Polish
> nationalists wiped
>   out the whole Jewish population and plundered
> their property in the
>   shtetl of Edvabno. Nobody said even a word about
> that crime until US
>   and German historians took up this problem. The
> Poles were forced to
>   launch a nationwide debate on anti-Semitism and
> chauvinism. We know
>   how the Poles reacted..."
>
>   Dmytro Pavlychko: "As a result, Aleksander
> Kwasniewski came to
>   Edvabno and apologized to the Jews on behalf of
> the Polish people..."
>
>
>   M. Z.: "The Wisla (Vistula) Operation has not been
> fully condemned,
>   by the Polish side. Let us recall the Jaworzno
> concentration camp,
>   where Ukrainians were not only kept but also
> sentenced to death and
>   executed by firing squads... Why are the Germans
> raising the question
>   of deportees? They clearly need this as
> compensation for the guilt
>   they bear. 'For we also suffered, which somewhat
> assuages our crimes,
>   our guilt, our pangs of conscience, etc. ...'
>   We are now talking about the Volyn problems, but
> still to be
>   discussed is Zasiannia, Kholmshchyna, and
> Pidliashshia, in which case
>   Poland has in fact taken no steps. But this
> immediately raises the
>   following question: why not establish a Ukrainian
> deportees center,
>   as the Germans are raising the question of a
> German deportees center
>   in the Sudetenland or, say, in Gdansk...?
>
>   "The current problem is that the Ukrainians should
> not view the Volyn
>   events as kind of a pitchfork with which the Poles
> are going to lift
>   us so that we see the truth. The truth is
> terrible, but we must also
>   say honestly that there were also crimes on the
> Ukrainian part which
>   we firmly condemn. We must explain to ourselves
> and our people why
>   that happened.
>
>   "We have launched a debate on the SS Halychyna
> (Galician) Division.
>   But nobody talks about the fact that there was a
> similar division in
>   France: more Frenchmen died on the German side
> than on that of the
>   Resistance and the forces that fought for the
> liberation of France
>   from Nazi Germany. So there are very many serious
> problems here. It
>   is too early to say in our discussion today that
> the problem has been
>   done way with..."
>
>   L. I.: "When the Poles came to hold bilateral
> talks on Volyn, they
>   brought with them ten volumes written by a
> presidential staff
>   commission. This is an ample piece of evidence for
> politicians. The
>   Ukrainians came in with a thin folder: this is a
> matter of reproach
>   for the Institute of History of the Academy of
> Sciences, and the
>   University of Volyn (I visited Lutsk last December
> and said, 'Dear
>   colleagues, please write, we're ready to
> publish').
>   Nobody in general cared about how the state will
> look until it came
>   to the crunch. It is still obvious that we must
> understand the
>   political and social backdrop of the problem of
> unilateral
>   repentance. When we hear again the ominous phrase,
> ethnic
>   cleansing... If the Poles did something wrong, the
> blame falls
>   exclusively on the totalitarian regime, but when
> Ukraine is in
>   question, charges are leveled at Ukrainian
> criminals. I think this
>   should be a matter of general attention in Ukraine
> as well.
>
>   IF TOMORROW IS TO BE SHROUDED IN HISTORICAL
> UNTRUTH, THERE WILL NEVER
>   BE A TOMORROW
>
>   L. I.: "And what is the attitude of Germany toward
> Poland and that of
>   Ukraine toward Poland?"
>
>
>   D. P.: "Well, whatever we say and calculate, these
> are our own
>   Ukrainian woes. No matter how hard we try to lay
> the whole blame on
>   the Poles, we will always bump into the Polish
> side which will be
>   doing exactly the same. There have always been and
> will be two
>   national truths. And we must reduce these truths
> to one common truth.
>   It is almost impossible, but it has to be done.
>
>   DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO
>
>
>   I approve of Volodymyr Serhiychuk's book, The
> Tragedy of Volyn. He is
>   our first historian who has collected certain
> archival materials.
>
>   Ukrainian-Polish history is not drawing to a close
> but is only
>   beginning. If we think that everything was in the
> past, we will never
>   come to an acceptable conclusion. We had no state,
> we were a
>   stateless nation, while the Polish had a state of
> their own. So they
>   have an entirely different attitude toward
> history."
>
>   L. I.: "But this argument has no effect on them
> now."
>
>
>   D. P.: "I know it hasn't, but we are talking about
> our own argument."
>
>
>   L. K.: "One word, please. I will try to answer a
> very interesting
>   question. Why are the Poles striving so actively
> to observe the
>   tragedy's sixtieth anniversary? Dmytro Pavlychko
> is right, saying
>   that they have far more grievances to settle with
> the Germans. But
>   Germany is a strong state. I think Polish
> rightwing forces feel that
>   today's Ukraine is a politically and economically
> weakened state
>   beset with a host of problems and in need of a
> guide.
>   Moreover, our bureaucrats keep saying that Poland
> should be that
>   guide. And we appreciate and exalt this to the
> skies and say: let
>   Ukraine not emphasize the historical truth and
> accept softer worded
>   conclusions in the name of its current interests
> and in the name of,
>   say, future friendship with Poland.
>
>   "I agree with Mr. Pavlychko that we should think
> about tomorrow. But
>   if tomorrow is to be shrouded in historical
> untruth, there will never
>   be a tomorrow. For nobody can deny the fact that
> in 1943 the Polish
>   government-in-exile negotiated with Stalin and
> Western leaders that
>   Volyn should be part of Poland after the war. Only
> after the Potsdam
>   Conference was this question taken off the agenda.
>
>   Tell me please: could the nationally-minded forces
> on those lands put
>   up with this philosophy? Next, it was, to some
> extent, a Jacquerie
>   because axes, pitchforks, and scythes were used...
> It was not
>   accidental that I recalled the colonists. They
> took the land! The
>   Ukrainians never tried to foray into the Polish
> lands.
>
>   If we say now bluntly that this never happened in
> our history and
>   that we must take all blame, then, pardon me, what
> will we leave
>   after us in history - for our children,
> grandchildren, and great-
>   grandchildren? What will we leave for them?
>
>   A simple and clear thing: we are ready to start,
> together with the
>   Poles, writing a history suitable for Poland, we
> are ready to team up
>   with the Russians in writing a history suitable
> for Russia... Then
>   who are we? We must not do this! I stress again:
> if we want mutual
>   condemnation and mutual apology, it should be
> truly mutual.
>
>   Now about monuments. I recalled them not by
> accidentally either. For
>   a monument is not a book to be read with arguments
> in hand. It will
>   stand forever: 'here are the villains, OUN-UPA.'
> That's all! What
>   about us? We won't have anything. Then we'll say -
> Pavlychko is
>   right - we're all criminals.
>
>   I remember very well the times when I was a member
> of the Communist
>   Party Central Committee: there was not a single
> report of the CC
>   First Secretary without the phrase 'Ukrainian
> bourgeois nationalists,
>   fierce enemies of the Ukrainian people; OUN-UPA,
> the trash of the
>   Ukrainian people.'
>
>   This still lingers in the heads of thousands of
> people - and this is
>   natural because we are unable to put things in
> order in our own
>   house. 'The Ukrainians will give in, you just have
> to press them a
>   little. They don't know anything themselves.'
> Thank you, we have at
>   least one book."
>
>   "THE HEROES WHOSE GRAVES ARE IN AN ALIEN LAND WILL
> NEVER RISE FROM
>   THEIR GRAVES"
>
>   D. P.: "I want to say in conclusion of about what
> I remember..."
>
>
>   L. K.: "I'm sorry, I interrupted you."
>
>
>   D. P.: "I don't mind you interrupting me. You used
> to interrupt me in
>   Verkhovna Rada but, thank God, I could also
> interrupt you, and then
>   we proclaimed together an independent Ukrainian
> state. Yes, it was I
>   who sat behind Leonid Makarovych Kravchuk and
> brought him the edited
>   text of the Independence Proclamation Act on
> August 24, 1991.
>   "So I want to tell you that all the bloody
> conflicts that arose
>   between Poland and Ukraine never led to the
> victory of either side.
>   Even Bohdan Khmelnytsky's victory over Poland
> eventually pushed
>   Ukraine into the Ruin and then into Tsarist
> Russian captivity. Then
>   Poland was partitioned also and the part of it
> with Warsaw was
>   annexed by Russia.
>
>   This occurred because Kazimierz the Great began to
> conquer Ukrainian
>   lands in 1349, without understanding that a
> conquered land will never
>   remain yours, that, as Ivan Franko said, 'the
> heroes whose graves are
>   in an alien land will never rise from their
> graves.'
>
>   I would like to note that Franko wrote an article
> called 'Our View of
>   the Polish Question.' I can't quote it exactly,
> but the gist is as
>   follows: we, Ukrainians, will never agree to the
> restoration of
>   Poland in its old boundaries. Then Franko asks us
> directly: what is a
>   realistic or, as we say now, pragmatic policy?
> Franko teaches us, 'we
>   must always think about tomorrow.
>
>   I fully agree with Mr. Kravchuk that Ukrainians
> should study down to
>   the tiniest detail this tragedy and, in general,
> all that we had with
>   the Poles: otherwise, there will be no progress.
> But we must also
>   take into account what the great Pole Jerzy
> Gedroyc said, 'Let us
>   renounce Lviv!' And the current Polish government
> has done so. So
>   what do you want? To erect a monument only to
> worsen Ukrainian-Polish
>   relations?
>
>   For Kuchma and Kwasniewski signed in 1997 the
> document 'Towards
>   Mutual Understanding and Unity' which calls on
> Poles and Ukrainians
>   to unite and be the closest nations, to build a
> common European
>   civilization.
>
>   Besides, there were instances in our
> Polish-Ukrainian history, when
>   great Polish figures, for example, Juliusz
> Slowacki, a great son of
>   the Ukrainian soil and one of the greatest
> geniuses of Polish
>   literature, said in 1835, before Shevchenko, in
> the words of an
>   Ukrainian woman to a Polish noble, 'You, dishonest
> creature, won't
>   know that Ukraine will arise some day.' This was
> said by a Pole.
>
>   The point is some Poles served us, and we served
> the Poles. And, when
>   Poland recently launched a debate on the SS
> Halychyna division and
>   began to berate us, somebody recalled that this
> division's commander,
>   Pavlo Shandruk, had been awarded Order Virtuti
> Militari, for he had
>   been a Polish army officer and gallantly fought
> against the Germans
>   in 1939 at the head of the 20th Brigade.
>
>   He got this highest Polish medal from the London-
> based government in
>   exile. This made Poland shut up. We must not only
> say, 'We apologize
>   and pardon you,' but also search our history for
> and celebrate the
>   events that bring us closer."
>
>   L. K.: "The Poles must also search for the same
> thing."
>
>
>   D. P.: "Of course, not only we. They also. For the
> Poles want to
>   celebrate what disunites us, and we should suggest
> that we celebrate
>   what unites us.
>   For there can be no bloody justice. There will be
> no truth either
>   here or there if we choose to erect tendentious
> and unrighteous
>   monuments. Today we must view Poland as not a
> homogeneous mass but as
>   a nation in which different political trends
> compete. I am convinced
>   that victory will be won by a trend that could
> have once said and can
>   say now, 'Our existence is unthinkable without
> Ukraine'."
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
>   ----------
>
>   PART II: VOLYN, 1943-1944, THE UNKNOWN TRAGEDY
>   The Terrible Interethnic Conflict Between
> Ukrainians and Poles in
>   Volyn Ukraine and Poland Should Observe the Dates
> that Unite Us
>
>   Prepared by Serhiy Makhun, Ihor Siundiukov,
>   Vyacheslav Darpiniants, Mykhailo Mazurin
>   The Day Weekly Digest in Two Parts
>   Part I, May 13, 2003; Part II, May 27, 2003
>   Kyiv, Ukraine The Day continues the debate on the
> root and essence of
>   the 1943-1944 interethnic conflict in Volyn which
> claimed tens of
>   thousands of Ukrainian and Polish lives.
>
>   In any case, one should neither mix the historical
> components of this
>   confrontation with the political aspects of today
> nor seek unilateral
>   repentance from the other.
>
>   Only the perception and unconditional acceptance
> of the fact that
>   both the Polish and the Ukrainian sides are
> responsible for this
>   bloodshed under the cruelest conditions of World
> War II will
>   contribute to unbiased coverage of the events of
> sixty years ago.
>
>
>   A UNIQUE SNAPSHOT: THE KYIV VOLYN FRATERNITY AND
> THE "ASSOCIATE
>   MEMBER" DMYTRO PAVLYCHKO
>   Photo by Mykola LAZARENKO, The Day
>
>
>   Participating in the debate are prominent
> Volyn-born contemporary
>   politicians: first President of Ukraine Leonid
> KRAVCHUK; People's
>   Deputies of Ukraine, Academician Mykola ZHULYNSKY
> and Serhiy
>   SHEVCHUK; Lieutenant General Oleksandr SKIPALSKY;
> and former
>   Ambassador of Ukraine to Poland Dmytro PAVLYCHKO.
>
>   Interviewed by Larysa IVSHYNA, The Day
>
>   Larysa IVSHYNA: "I would like to ask you, General
> Skipalsky, a
>   question. Ukrainians must distance themselves one
> way or another from
>   the status of defendant. But, of course, we must
> also make some real
>   steps to stop being one. Sometimes 'advocates'
> succumb to the
>   temptation of taking advantage of the defendant's
> plight. But perhaps
>   Ukrainians should also ask themselves the question
> of whether they
>   can help Poland? For example, to counter a strong
> pressure of the
>   Polish Right that could harm both Poland and
> Ukraine. We must also be
>   the active subject of politics."
>
>
>   THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE
> UKRAINE STRONG
>
>   Oleksandr SKIPALSKY: "I always feel the state at
> my back. For there
>   are government agencies supposed to do their job,
> defending the
>   national interests of Ukraine and Ukrainians,
> which our first
>   president emphasized. I was born in Volyn, ten
> kilometers away from
>   the River Buh, at a farmstead, later part of the
> village of Vyzhhiv,
>   Liuboml district. The village was burnt down by
> Polish Armia Krajowa
>   (AK) units that crossed the Buh.
>   So I have my own scores to settle with the Poles -
> suffice it to say
>   I was born in a dugout. In 1943 the AK killed my
> grandmother, burnt
>   down the houses of my two grandfathers, and
> murdered my uncle.
>
>   They did so, although none of my close kinsmen
> were in OUN or UPA.
>   Then what should I personally apologize for? For
> being left without a
>   house, a grandmother, or even without three houses
> (the two of my
>   grandfathers and one of my father)? For the fact
> that our farmstead
>   was ruined for no apparent reason?
>
>   From the perspective of today's international
> relations, I agree we
>   should seek a balanced way out. We should shake
> hands and apologize
>   for the bloodshed of sixty years ago in the
> interests of the future.
>   I just can't understand any different answer or
> different action: the
>   memory of my relatives will never let me. Another
> thing - the graves
>   of innocent victims will always remind me of this.
>
>   As to the future geopolitical changes, I want to
> put forward one more
>   argument, one more approach. We must never forget
> that there is a
>   shadowy force of influence in international
> relations, also known the
>   world over as secret services. When my respected
> colleagues were
>   discussing the problem of Polish-German,
> Ukrainian-Polish, and
>   Ukrainian-Russian relations, I kept recalling the
> following.
>
>   Why do you think should Warsaw's Russian Embassy
> officials drive
>   across the Peremysl land to Hrubieszxw and say,
> 'Look, this is the
>   land Stalin and Russia gave you. The Ukrainians
> never would have'?"
>
>   In my view, there is also a third force involved
> in this, one that
>   wants to create tension. Undoubtedly, there are
> countries that would
>   not like to see a strong Ukraine. You know very
> well that the
>   Ukrainian leadership is favoring today the idea of
> a single economic
>   space, that there are powerful forces in this
> country, which claim
>   that Ukraine will be part of the Union tomorrow.
>
>   You know that a Russian geopolitical institute
> predicts that Ukraine
>   will be partitioned into two states along the
> Dnipro. Reasonable
>   politicians indeed, the Poles are trying to stake
> their claims, just
>   in case, on the territory of Volyn, saying they
> 'have a historic
>   right to these lands because they suffered there
> so much'."
>
>   L. I.: "There are our graves there..."
>
>
>   O. S.: "Yes, there are our graves there. The
> so-called anniversary
>   observation or Ukraine's unilateral apology would
> have dire
>   consequences.
>   For the Polish view is as follows, 'If Ukraine is
> apologizing so
>   readily, it will just as readily cede Volyn; it
> will surrender Donbas
>   to Russia and Bukovyna to Romania.' The
> authorities concerned,
>   especially the National Security and Defense
> Council, should work
>   with subtlety and delicacy on this problem..."
>
>   L. I.: "Gen. Skipalsky, here is a question to you
> and all those
>   present. President Kwasniewski is under pressure
> from the Right. It
>   is quite possible that he would behave differently
> but for this
>   pressure. But who must pressure our politicians? I
> am not sure they
>   also need this kind of support, these heated
> voices that say: do as
>   you please, but we won't let you take any
> unilateral steps in this
>   direction. Who should do this?"
>
>
>   O. S.: "One must differentiate President
> Kwasniewski of Poland from
>   many of our politicians. In spite of any private,
> personal or
>   material interests, Kwasniewski always remains a
> Pole. He will go the
>   whole nine yards to defend Polish interests. And
> he will be right to
>   do so, for this is the golden rule for any true
> politician. We should
>   help our leaders understand what the national
> interest is. I hope our
>   meeting will to some extent help them understand
> this. We must learn.
>   It is our tragedy that Ukraine is a young state
> and our governmental
>   mechanism malfunctions. Let me give you some
> examples with concrete
>   names. A person named Yaroslav Tsaruk collects
> archival materials
>   about the Volyn tragedy in Volodymyr-Volyn
> district (I was elected to
>   parliament from that constituency).
>
>   When I was a deputy, I bought - with my own money
> - and presented him
>   with a tape recorder so he could go around and
> record eyewitness
>   reports. As a Verkhovna Rada deputy, I turned to
> the Cabinet of
>   Ministers and local Council Chairman Klymchuk for
> assistance in
>   publishing the materials collected.
>
>   Only when the Poles stepped on the gas did we
> start to move a little
>   (we really need the stick sometimes). Let Mr.
> Klymchuk explain today
>   why he in fact turned a blind eye to this. Why
> couldn't he find 1000
>   hryvnias to get that book published in 1995? And
> nobody could!"
>
>   L. I.: "You know, Gen. Skipalsky, I think it is a
> good idea to name
>   those who have done something like this. There is
> a real chance to
>   tell truth at last about those events. After all,
> we must be aware of
>   the political space we are in. But if our
> president, the executive
>   branch, and parliamentary committee heads need
> educational and
>   humanitarian assistance, this assistance should be
> rendered
>   immediately, so they act in true conscience.
>   For example, Mr. Pavlychko recalled some people of
> the Marko
>   Bezruchko caliber along with Marshal Budenny, but
> the alumni of
>   Soviet schools see no equation here. Ukraine must
> now come together
>   on the basis of the Volyn events. For this is a
> unification formula
>   for all Ukraine. It is not just the question of
> Volyn alone. This
>   also applies to the Donbas, Crimea, Bukovyna... We
> should all spread
>   knowledge about these events via party-based and
> non-governmental
>   organizations."
>
>   O. S.: "I am 100% certain that the so-called
> observation of the
>   sixtieth anniversary of the Volyn events is part
> of a strategic,
>   geopolitical, special operation aimed at isolating
> Ukraine. All the
>   components of this operation are being controlled,
> supervised, and
>   hyped to a large extent. If we look at each
> component and then at the
>   whole thing, we will see who stands to gain from
> this. We do have
>   professionals - not just scholarly consultants -
> capable of defending
>   our national interests. We must finally become
> Ukrainians."
>   POLISH CHAUVINISTS DO HARM NOT ONLY TO UKRAINE BUT
> ALSO TO POLAND
>
>   Dmytro PAVLYCHKO: "You know only too well which
> forces are interested
>   in stirring up enmity between us and Poles. So we
> must exercise
>   utmost caution today. The Ukrainians should never
> offer unilateral
>   apologies, but it is important to suggest that the
> Poles take a
>   Christian step as they did with respect to the
> Germans. You mentioned
>   the Russians. Russian diplomats kept saying to me
> at every
>   reception, 'How can a khokhol (Ukrainian - Ed.)
> possibly be together
>   with a liakh (Pole - Ed.)? It's impossible!' And
> today these Polish
>   chauvinists are doing harm not only to Ukraine but
> also to their own
>   Polish state.
>   For nobody - NATO or any other force - but Ukraine
> (I told them this
>   frankly in Warsaw) will help Poland if it becomes
> part of this
>   geopolitical space without our country. Will the
> Danes or the
>   Norwegians fight for Poland? The point is we have
> the government, the
>   President, and the parliament. The powers that be
> must say on behalf
>   of the Ukrainian people, 'We apologize, but you
> should apologize
>   too.'"
>
>   L. I.: "I heard Mr. Serhiy Shevchuk's dialog with
> Polish
>   representative Ms. Bogumila Berdychowska on Radio
> Liberty. I noticed
>   one thing. Mr. Shevchuk dropped a very innocent
> phrase, 'Poland is
>   now facing some domestic problems, and this
> perhaps caused such an
>   attitude.'
>   Ms. Bogumila answered, 'Why is the gentleman so
> worried about Poland?
>   Poland will do it on its own.' Then she said
> something like 'mind
>   your own business.' This is quite a telling
> example. Have we switched
>   from partnership at all levels to confrontation?
> Apparently, we
>   ourselves have psychologically enabled certain
> Polish circles to hope
>   that they can solve these problems just now
> however they want."
>
>   D. P.: "Vice Premier Azarov has been visiting
> Moscow to make a deal
>   on the so-called common economic space with some
> CIS countries. The
>   Poles have interpreted this as the first signal
> that they can treat
>   us with an air of superiority. But Ukraine also
> has its own interest,
>   and everybody must be aware of this. Issues like
> this should not be
>   addressed in an emotional vein."
>
>
>   Mykola ZHULYNSKY: "Mrs. Ivshyna, I have long
> chaired the Ukrainian-
>   Polish Forum and co-chaired the parliamentary
> group in charge of
>   links with the Polish Sejm. Despite all the
> tragedies of my family, I
>   have never told the Poles about this, for I have
> been doing my best
>   to achieve mutual understanding and work in the
> name of the future.
>   It is no accident that I noted the role of German
> war veteran
>   organizations.
>   Likewise, I would like to point out the role of
> various Polish
>   compatriot organizations which have in fact
> assumed such public
>   strength that they even forced Kwasniewski to
> raise this problem at a
>   high governmental level. Maybe President
> Kwasniewski hopes he will
>   manage to take the situation into his own hands
> and give it the right
>   twist. Yet, in my view, Polish authorities are
> failing to keep this
>   situation under control today.
>
>   "The Polish side seems to believe that our
> political and governmental
>   leadership is unaware of the essence of this
> problem, of the
>   historical subtext and circumstances, and does not
> know what caused
>   the 1943-1944 interethnic conflicts in Volyn.
> Betting precisely on
>   this, the Poles try to force the Ukrainian side to
> apologize and thus
>   obtain compensation.
>
>   I want to say a few words about the book Tragedy
> of Volyn. It was
>   published with assistance of the Ukrainian- Polish
> Forum. You just
>   can't imagine the reaction of my Polish friends:
> how on earth could
>   the Ukrainian- Polish Forum support a book
> containing so many facts
>   against Poland?
>
>   I answered, 'But you don't want to know the truth!
> There is your
>   Polish truth, and there is our Ukrainian truth,
> and the latter has
>   not yet been fully established - it will still
> take some time.' Even
>   if the Poles enter the EU, they won't feel
> comfortable unless they
>   find mutual understanding with Ukraine because
> this understanding
>   will always be on the agenda."
>
>   WE MUST AVERT A CONFLICT BETWEEN AK AND UPA
> VETERANS
>
>   Serhiy SHEVCHUK: "I would like to say a few words
> about my native
>   Volyn. Volynians are distinguished for their
> patriarchal setup, sound
>   judgment, kindness and open-heartedness.
>   "But these good qualities are evident just up to a
> certain point. For
>   it is quite a different thing when the question is
> about homeland,
>   kin, and children... Poland, our good advisor and
> friend, has
>   gradually and quite unexpectedly assumed the
> function of
>   Ukraine's 'advocate,' looking down on this country
> as if we were a
>   weakling. The results of this 'advocacy' are all
> too obvious.
>
>   Then came the period of certain tension in
> Ukrainian-Polish
>   relations. From May 2004 onwards, Poland will
> cease to pursue an
>   independent foreign, economic, customs, and other
> policy because it
>   will become part of the EU. This means Ukraine
> will have to denounce
>   all treaties not only with Poland but also,
> incidentally, with the
>   Baltic states in the commercial, economic, and
> financial areas. Those
>   states are already official EU members under the
> Athens accords.
>
>   In particular, this invalidates free trade
> treaties with the Baltic
>   states and many other, including economic,
> agreements with Poland,
>   for example, one on exporting our steel and other
> materials. From now
>   on, Warsaw is not the sole decision- maker:
> Brussels will be telling
>   Warsaw what to do. It seems to me the Poles
> foresaw this well before
>   the Ukrainians did.
>
>   Unfortunately, we are now in a period of
> conflicting interests.
>   Whether or not we want it, Warsaw is officially
> trying to confront
>   and downgrade relations with us. In July the Poles
> are going to put
>   up monuments in Volyn, to say nothing about what
> they want to write
>   on them about OUN-UPA. This is a far more serious
> thing than it seems.
>
>   They officially speak about a genocide of the
> Polish people. But the
>   word genocide quite seldom occurs in modern
> history. This means the
>   Ukrainians will be portrayed precisely as the
> nation that committed
>   genocide against the Polish population.
>
>   It's easy to foresee the reaction of other states
> if the Polish say
>   it was genocide against the Polish populace and we
> officially admit
>   this. This will provoke a condemnation from at
> least the European
>   community because Poland is almost a EU member.
> Then Poland will take
>   us to the Hague court. School textbooks and
> scholarly studies will be
>   full of references to the fact of genocide, not to
> mention the
>   property question.
>
>   "Mr. Siwiec claims 99 villages were burnt down by
> the Ukrainians.
>   This is, pardon the expression, a bald-faced lie.
> I don't want to
>   hurt Ms. Berdychowska's feelings, but this is an
> out-and-out lie.
>   When Messrs. Siwiec and Medvedchuk were recently
> visiting Hayiv, near
>   Kivertsy, they could see a well- cared-for
> cemetery as well as a
>   totally unacceptable thing: a memorial stone with
> a list of villages
>   and townships that Ukrainians allegedly burnt
> down. I don't know
>   whether the distinguished guests really saw this
> stone, which
>   mentions Livertsy, Kolky and many other villages
> which had never been
>   burnt or ruined. Besides, this is written on our
> sovereign territory!"
>
>   L. I.: "Who put up this memorial stone?"
>
>
>   S. S.: "The Poles did."
>
>
>   L. I.: "With whose permission?"
>
>
>   S. S.: "With the permission of the local
> administration heads."
>
>
>   L. I.: "Why is the Polish side insisting on
> maintaining direct
>   contacts with bodies of local self- government?"
>
>
>   S. S.: "The Poles do not stay in contact with
> oblast administrations
>   or councils. They go to district authorities. This
> is simpler and
>   easier. There's more than one reason why the local
> authorities give a
>   go- ahead to do such things. 14 busloads of Armia
> Krajowa combatants
>   were to have come to attend the unveiling of this
> monument. They
>   never came. I was approached by our UPA veterans
> who said to me: if
>   they come, we'll also come - on foot without any
> buses - but armed
>   with pitchforks and gas pistols.
>   We then resorted to the following stratagem: we
> sealed the border for
>   two days, so the bussed Polish combatants stood
> around and eventually
>   left. We thus managed to ward off a conflict
> between the veterans.
>   And I am not sure there will be no other similar
> or even more serious
>   conflicts between AK and UPA combatants.
>
>   "Incidentally, to emphasize that Volynians are not
> as bellicose as
>   the Poles claim they are, I would like to give
> another, perhaps also
>   interesting, fact. You know that Wehrmacht and
> Volyn Red Army
>   veterans have been establishing relations of late.
> They meet each
>   other, travel to Germany, and the Germans come
> visit us. I once
>   witnessed a very interesting thing. When these
> white-haired and war-
>   crippled veterans gathered at a table in Turiysk,
> one German
>   said, 'Here, near Turiysk, I fought on this side
> of the river.' A Red
>   Army man replied, 'But I also fought and fired in
> that direction!'
>
>   The German veteran says, 'You know, you might have
> been shooting at
>   me; look, I was wounded in the left hand.' And he
> showed his two
>   remaining fingers. There was a pause. Then the
> German found what to
>   say, 'But I still have the right hand to hold out
> to you.' They shook
>   hands and hugged each other! Will UPA and Armia
> Krajowa veterans ever
>   come to this? I don't know. Still, I would like
> them to."
>
>   "WHOEVER LIBERATES HIMSELF WILL BE FREE, WHOEVER
> IS LIBERATED BY
>   SOMEONE ELSE WILL BE DOOMED TO ENTHRALMENT..."
>
>   Leonid KRAVCHUK: "We are not discussing today the
> problem of
>   Operation Wi s ? la. And rightly so. For, unlike
> the Volyn tragedy,
>   the Wisla problem is not a domestic political
> problem; it came up
>   after Nikita Khrushchev signed an agreement with
> the Polish Committee
>   of National Liberation.
>   My perception is that if Poland condemns the Wisla
> Operation (I have
>   heard about this), President Kwasniewski might as
> well have said in
>   his letter to the conference, 'Let's first cancel
> the brutal decision
>   made by Khrushchev and the Polish government.'
> What's the problem?
>
>   The point is that far from all Poles share the
> viewpoint that the Wi
>   s ? la Operation was really an unfair and brutal
> action against the
>   Ukrainians. In any case, nobody from the Polish
> side has made an
>   official statement to this effect."
>
>   D. P.: "Yes. The Senate has condemned the Wi s ?
> la Operation. I
>   emphasize: the Senate, not the whole Sejm. So this
> condemnation is
>   not much of a consequence, it does not figure in
> any documents.
>   Still, we must mention this step."
>
>
>   L. K.: "But could the Polish president make a
> relevant statement on
>   this matter? He does have the right to do so. But,
> instead of making
>   a political statement, Kwasniewski wrote a
> letter..."
>
>
>   M. Z.: "In which he did not apologize to the
> Ukrainians but only
>   expressed his sympathy..."
>
>
>   L. K.: "He expressed his sympathy but did not say
> he condemned the Wi
>   s ? la Operation. He wrote this operation should
> be condemned. But
>   when and by whom? The emphases put in this letter
> raised many an
>   eyebrow, so many that it appears as if Poland were
> innocent. But the
>   truth is that the Polish government must take all
> the blame for the
>   Wisla affair.
>   While, quite frankly, both sides are to blame for
> the Volyn events,
>   the Wisla Operation is put on the conscience of
> one side only. Can we
>   forget about the concentration camp, where 4,000
> Ukrainian died and
>   only 186 survived? Nor should we forget about
> other problems still to
>   be solved, such as loss of property."
>
>   S. S.: "Ukraine also saw a deportation, the
> deportation of Crimean
>   Tatars. Our state has adopted an absolutely humane
> attitude toward
>   this. Incidentally, Europe does not appreciate
> this. More than
>   300,000 Crimean Tatars have come back. The state
> has given them land.
>   Ukraine renders them as much assistance as it can
> and has even
>   granted them clearly defined representation in
> governmental bodies."
>
>
>   L. K.: "Although it is not Ukraine but the USSR, a
> different state,
>   that deported the Crimean Tatars."
>
>
>   S. S.: "The Poles have only hinted at an apology
> for the Wi s ? la
>   Operation, but we take this as a very big step
> forward..."
>
>
>   L. K.: "Now look, Kuchma is supposed to apologize,
> while Kwasniewski
>   has not even begged our pardon for the Wi s ? la
> affair. This is a
>   proven fact!"
>
>
>   M. Z.: "Mr. Kravchuk, all this began when you were
> president. It's
>   your government that began to pursue a very
> well-considered policy
>   toward the Crimean Tatars. And the Council of
> Europe was with us, and
>   OSCE High Commissioner Max van der Stoel came, and
> you received him."
>
>
>   L. K.: "We also allowed Germans to return to
> Ukraine..."
>
>
>   M. Z.: "And all the Europeans saw that Ukraine was
> the only state
>   that could address so humanely the problem of
> ethnic, especially
>   repressed, minorities.
>   Let's consider the following question. Verkhovna
> Rada had just begun
>   to show a more friendly climate, it was already
> possible to move the
>   issue of recognizing UPA a combatant, a law had
> been drawn up... And
>   suddenly the Volyn problem arose. Moreover,
> emphasis is being laid on
>   alleged OUN-UPA crimes. I want to support General
> Skipalsky's
>   position: this is all big-time politics.
>
>   The aim is, first, to keep Ukraine from restoring
> historical justice
>   and recognizing UPA a combatant; second, to raise
> these problems and
>   leave Europe with the problem of the deportation
> of Ukrainians from
>   Kholmshchyna and Pidliashshia; third, the
> prospects. Poland will
>   enter the European Union, which in fact solves the
> problem of borders.
>
>   If, for example, Ukraine just as quickly got the
> opportunity of
>   joining the EU, then there would be no border as
> such between Poland
>   and Ukraine, and the primordial Ukrainian
> territories we are talking
>   about would belong to Europe as well as to Ukraine
> because the
>   Ukrainians have a still more legitimate right to
> return there. This
>   is also a serious problem which neither we nor the
> Poles are raising.
>
>   But in this case European borders become a purely
> formalistic
>   problem, with humanitarian values, culture, etc.,
> coming to the fore.
>   Culture is already a factor that shapes the
> European theater. And we
>   should have already been taking a quite active
> part in this dialog. I
>   think there are some other underlying reasons why
> we are unable today
>   to feel or find the root causes of this very
> difficult problem.
>   Indeed, we should have studied it."
>
>   L. I.: "So the Volyn events are just the tip of an
> iceberg..."
>   THE VOLYN QUADRANGLE: WARSAW-KYIV-BERLIN-MOSCOW
>
>   D. P.: "When I was still in Poland, some respected
> Polish newspapers
>   began to print articles critical of Kwasniewski,
> Geremek, and then
>   the next foreign minister and suggesting that
> Poland should not side
>   with Ukraine.
>   Yet, Kwasniewski always stressed that Poland's
> Eastern policy is
>   oriented toward Ukraine, a strategic partner and
> ally. This position
>   gradually came under fire. Why? Because one has to
> make friends. Who
>   with? With Russia! In the East, Poland's main
> partner is Russia, not
>   Ukraine, Kwasniewski's critics said.
>
>   Step by step, this idea attracted some Poles and
> Polish politicians
>   (actually this is an old idea going back to Roman
> Dmowski and best
>   represented in the Communist period by one
> Boleslaw Piasecki, leader
>   of the prewar fascist Polish Falange who later
> made a deal with the
>   Soviets and, as head of the Pax Publishing House,
> died the richest
>   man in People's Poland - Ed.). Meanwhile, this is
> in essence an anti-
>   Polish idea.
>
>   There have always been two peoples, the Ukrainian
> and Polish, between
>   Russia and Germany. They have fought each other,
> and both Germans and
>   Russians were first of all interested in this. In
> 1943 the Gestapo
>   would set Polish guerrillas against the
> Ukrainians, give them lists
>   of UPA fighters, and the Poles would then kill
> real Ukrainian
>   patriots.
>
>   Our general Skipalsky noted very shrewdly that the
> Volyn tragedy was
>   not only the result of the pain and the feeling of
> revenge that the
>   Ukrainians had against the Poles. It is also the
> result of a
>   provocation by two states.
>
>   Of course, today's Russia and Germany are not what
> they used to be,
>   but there are certain forces that strive to turn
> the clock back and
>   set again Ukraine against Poland and Poland
> against Ukraine.
>
>   And we should not give into this with an emotional
> outburst: look,
>   they demand repentance from us. Far from all the
> Poles demand this
>   repentance; this demand emanates from the
> previously mentioned fact-
>   finding commissions.
>
>   We should organize a meeting under the
> Polish-Ukrainian Forum
>   auspices. The Volyn problem should be raised in
> our parliament - if
>   not at a plenary session, then at least in
> commissions.
>
>   Please raise this issue, gentlemen. You are
> people's deputies after
>   all. Let us begin a parliamentary discussion on
> this issue. This
>   problem should be discussed in parliament, not
> only in an editorial
>   office. And let our president voice his views."
>
>   S. S.: "Above all, I'd like to say there was, as
> Academician
>   Zhulynsky recalls, a statement made by the NDP
> faction. Then there
>   was a good chance to discuss these issues, even
> without calling them
>   Volyn massacre. There was a draft resolution
> proposed by Yuliya
>   Tymoshenko, Teren, and Bilorus about holding
> parliamentary hearings
>   on the deportation of Ukrainians from Kholmshchyna
> and Lemkivshchyna.
>   But it was voted down."
>
>
>   L. I.: "Parliamentary hearings provide, on the one
> hand, a good
>   opportunity to show a firm position if it really
> exists. But, on the
>   other hand, this can also be quite a dangerous
> thing. It is one thing
>   if you manage to capture the attention of this
> audience. I am still
>   afraid that this could be quite a risky
> undertaking.
>   And, frankly, I would like our current discussion,
> which is sure to
>   be published as fully as possible, to end with a
> certain number of
>   proposals to the legislative and executive
> branches. If we fail to
>   get back to the issue of recognizing UPA a
> combatant, we will miss
>   our chance, because, in my view, this will mean
> blatant injustice to
>   the Ukrainian nation's golden stock, the people
> who risked their
>   lives and took part in the liberation struggle."
>
>   WE MUST UPHOLD OUR OWN VISION OF HISTORY
>
>   L. K.: "We have the Volyn and the Rivne compatriot
> associations... I
>   suggest we get together and, say, offer our
> viewpoint on the Volyn
>   tragedy's anniversary. First, there must be days
> of mourning or days
>   of delegation exchange... Secondly, we could draw
> up, if not a
>   document then at least a number of items for a
> declaration or a
>   memorandum on the Volyn tragedy.
>   And the main idea not to be missed: under no
> circumstances should we
>   allow Ukraine and our national dignity to be
> humiliated and the truth
>   to be distorted.
>
>   We must learn to live with the truth that exists,
> not with one that
>   we would like to see in the name of some abstract
> goals. If we are
>   unable today to stand economically or politically
> abreast with, say,
>   Russia, we must at l east be able to defend our
> dignity. We must
>   uphold our own vision of history and stand up for
> ourselves in spite
>   of any lucrative dividends."
>
>   D. P.: "I support Mr. Kravchuk but still want to
> note again: the
>   Volyn tragedy is a common tragedy that requires
> reciprocal apologies.
>   As to proposals, I think, first, that a statement
> could be made on
>   behalf of not only the Volyn group but also the
> deputies making up
>   part of the Polish-Ukrainian Parliamentary Group."
>
>
>
>   M. Z.: "Jan Bira, Henryk Wxjec and I have decided
> to draw up a joint
>   declaration of the Polish Sejm and the Ukrainian
> parliament."
>
>
>   D. P.: "This can be a laconic statement: a common
> tragedy with mutual
>   apologies. That's all. Otherwise we will be never
> able to break the
>   vicious circle. I have already said our history is
> full of facts that
>   bring us closer to each other, that enable us to
> claim that Poland
>   and Ukraine have been friends, not only foes. We
> fought together, for
>   example, in the battles of Grunwald, Warsaw, and
> Zamo ? s ? c... In
>   1945, well after the Volyn tragedy, UPA and AK
> jointly liberated camp
>   prisoners in Hrubieszxw. This means there were
> also individuals who
>   cherished the unity of our peoples.
>   For instance, the Poles feel respect for Petliura.
> The point is that
>   Petliura said to them in a complicated situation,
> 'Take lands as far
>   as the Zbruch but save Kyiv.' The Poles just
> misunderstood his
>   message and agreed to sign the Riga Treaty of
> 1921. That was in fact
>   the third partition of Ukraine by Warsaw and
> Moscow, and it is worth
>   reminding the Poles of such things. They
> partitioned us too many
>   times for us to forget it.
>
>   Yet, at the same time, we must say we believe in
> those Poles who
>   understand that they need Ukraine and that
> high-profile campaigns in
>   the year of the Volyn tragedy anniversary,
> erection of monuments,
>   etc., are anti- Polish actions in the long run.
> Poland is strong in
>   that there was and still is Ukraine because
> Cossacks always defended
>   Poland from Tatars and Turks.
>
>   There are many facts of this kind - all we have to
> do is look for and
>   show them. Let me quote Taras Shevchenko, 'Are you
> boasting of having
>   once brought down Poland? You're right... Poland
> fell and crushed
>   you..." This is my vision of policies to be
> pursued. For while Poland
>   still stands, we do also, and if Poland ceases to
> exist, we will be
>   in dire straits."
>
>   L. I.: "Thank you for your time. After such a
> meaningful discussion,
>   we are obliged to solve this difficult problem. It
> is important that
>   you all have supported our newspaper's initiative.
> For our history is
>   not just the past but the beginning of a dialog
> about the future."
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------
>   ----------
>
>   VOLYN 1943-1944, AN UNKNOWN TRAGEDY
>   The Terrible Interethnic Conflict Between
> Ukrainians and Poles in
>   Volyn Prepared by Serhiy Makhun, Ihor Siundiukov,
> Vyacheslav
>   Darpinyants, and Mykhailo Mazurin THE DAY Weekly
> Digest in Two Parts
>   Part I, May 13, 2003; Part II, May 27, 2003, Kyiv,
> Ukraine Part I:
>   http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2003/15/issue.htm
>   Part II:
> http://www.day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2003/17/issue.htm
>   For personal and academic use only
>
>
>   back
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.32/1032
> - Release Date: 9/26/2007 8:20 PM
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
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Witold,

you make a very good point.

This  "loch"  you mentioned is Polish name for dungeon or cellar.   We
had these things in Poland I remember where I grew up.  That is where we
kept the harvested potatoes, vegetables, apples, etc. through the winter
, etc..

In new homes in North America some Europeans have such a cellar ,
usually in the basement under their front door step to keep food stuff
cool.  The basement is insulated and heated but not this small storage
room.   I have wine cellar like this.

This is very interesting because 6 feet (about 2 meters) under the
surface of the ground, the temperature is very stable at about 50
degrees F.  no matter if it is in summer or winter even though the
outdoor temperatures may vary from minus 40 degrees to plus 120 Degrees
F.

In addition, because of this known guaranteed stable underground
temperature of 50 F, we use this to heat our homes using new
"Geothermal" furnaces.   They are expensive to install, but is is the
way of the future because, it is extremely cheap to heat or air
condition a home using such a system.   About $20 per month for whole
house. It is so cheap, that I can't believe why governments don't pass a
law requiring all new homes/buildings to be heated and air conditioned
by such a system and old homes to be retrofitted with such a system.

Narazie

Zbyszek


--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "WITOLD SZYMANSKI"
<witold.szymanski@...> wrote:
>
> Eve,
> You touched on a very interesting topic. Home made bread. Deliciously
healthy.
>
> No, there were no fridges, or freezers, in Polish villages before the
WW2.
> There were, though, far better means of keeping all perishable produce
fresh, better than our fridges.
> We, I remember, have had a huge "loch". It was underground storage
with steps. This was, as I mentioned earlier, far better than to-day's
fridges and, after construction,cost nothing.
>
> As far, as home baking; it was good old Babcia, Mamusia and ofter the
eldest siostra, yes, three generation practising the art of home baking,
not only healthy and delicious rye bread, but also othe baked goodies.
Hense "Drozdzowa babka" etc.
>
> I live in north Wales, U.K., but to enjoy my daily rye bread, I have
to get it all the way from Bradford, in Yorkshire. We freeze the bread
and thow it out, evrytime we finish one loaf.
> Mind you, my wife is absolutely wonderful cook. She, often bakes rye
bread herself.
> The only problem, she can't get suitable flour. The best one, she
found out from experimenting, comes from Canada.
>
> I did mention, that my wife comes from Kresy. She was only just a two
year old babe, when the NKWD, or KGB, took her family by force to their
labour camp.
>
> My wife, Kazia lived with her mother and older sister, Irena, in the
same settlement in Masindi, Uganda.
>
> Coinsidently, or by fate, we met at a Christmas dance in 1954. The
rest is a happy history.
> We have thre grown up children and four wonderful grandchildren. The
eldest, Samantha,
> is 21 years old. Had finished high school and is working, not far from
wher we live.
>
> I better finsh, before I get on and on, though there is, certainly
plenty to tell.
> Perhaps some other time.
>
> Best wishes to All Kersowiaki/Sybiraki. Witek & Kazia Szymanscy z
Wolynia i spod Lwowa.
>
>
>

Witold,
you have touched a very important historical point about the timing of
deportations of osadnikow and their families.
You are of the age, although few years younger than myself, to remember
something about the actual journeys. I have devoted a great deal of time to
study the timing of  journeys of families into the depth of Siberia, but am not
aware of earlier journeys than February 1940.
Could you please try and recall the train size/ no of people or families
deported in that batch and location of the train at the departure point and
possible route from your home to Skorodumskaja Province near Zaykovo in Irbit
Forest in the area of Sverdlovsk. Were there other trains about the same time,
ie in December 1939?. Presumably it was a cattle type of transport.Were you
escorted by milicja and what were the conditions while travelling?
I ,and other members who contacted me , would be most grateful for this
information.
Another point is whether you had any information about your deportation from
Karta. In the  books I have there are a number of Szymanski families listed from
Lwowskie, but not yours that I can see.Their deportation was in February 1940.
antoni530

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Elzunia,

           I was born in Wolczek, on the right hand side of the river Bug. It was
three
           kilometers from across a little town - Krylow, which is on the left
hand side of the
           river and is presently in Poland.

       I was born on 24 April 1933, so I was just over six years of age, when we
were
       forcibly deported to a Russian labour camp in Irbtsk, Sorodumsk, in
Zajkowski
       Region, Swierdlowsk, on 29.12.1939.

         Yes, indeed, George (Jerzyk) is my nephew.

         Thank you for your friendly wormth.

          Best wishes to you and your nearest and dearest.
          With kind regards, Witek & Kazia, north Wales, U.K.


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Elizabeth Olsson
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:58 PM
   Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Food while in exile


   Hi Witek
   Welcome to the group. How old were you when you were deported? And where
   in Wolyn did you live?
   Are you related to George Szymanski from Melton Mowbray who joined
   around the same time as you did?

   pozdrowienia
   Elzunia Olsson
   Sweden
   Gallery Administrator
   http://www.kresy-siberia.org/photo.html


   -----Original Message-----
   From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of WITOLD SZYMANSKI
   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 6:09 PM
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Food while in exile

   Come on Antoni,

   There were plenty of bulki i ciastka, as well, as szynki, kielbasa and
   other farm products in shops before the WW2 in Poland. In fact, our
   country, having been mostly agricultural, overproduced many farm
   products and could not sell them.
   Sadly, it was true, that not many could afford to buy such products, you
   mentioned,but they were in every shop in the whole of the country.

   Best regards, Witek Szymanski.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: ANTONI KAZIMIERSKI
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   <mailto:Kresy-Siberia%40yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:45 PM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Food while in exile

   Frank,
   you have a very valid question. Herrings which is 'sledzie' in Polish,
   were and are at present plentiful in Russia as they were in Poland. The
   fish is good for drying and salting.
   In prisons, where rations had to be stored for a long time, this was the
   most popular source of food. It was easy to distibute and to ration it
   out to the inmates.
   The only addition to a piece of bread and fish was a mug of kipiatok -
   boiled water.
   Without the fish it was necessary to add salt to your mug of water.
   Soup was generally any fish (whole with scales) thrown into the couldron
   with wheat, barley or oats with some potato added. Most preferred
   'szczupak' (pike) and when you bought a serving it frequently included
   bones which provided calcium in one' diet.
   I am quite sure that herring saved many lives in the camps.

   Please have no illusions that in Poland before the war in the villages
   many survived/lived on similar rations. The bread was of a wheat/rye
   combination and usually had a label stuck on top to indicate that this
   was 'poor man's type. There was no 'bulki or ciastka' ( white roll or
   cake) and kielbasa or szynka' were a luxury.(Salami or smoked ham
   ).Often white 'bo czek' (bacon ) heavily salted was used. To have a
   marinated herring was a novelty against the usual carp or pstrag (trout)
   which were more plentiful inland.
   antoni530

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   _____

   Jag anvander en gratisversion av SPAMfighter for privata anvandare.
   1198 spam har blivit blockerade hittills.
   Betalande anvandare har inte detta meddelande i sin e-post.
   Hamta gratis SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/lsv> idag!

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8:02 AM


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Alex, are there many Domaradzkis?  There is a Jerzy (George) Domaradzki at
my work.

Louise B³a¿ejowska
Sydney, Australia


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5:00 PM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Antoni,
This is a relevent point at the moment as I spoke to my father
yesterday concerning his deportation and the date of the train from
Stolpce to Kotchetav. He is 95% sure although not certain that
Christmas had not yet come when he was taken to the train at Stolpce.
He then says they waited some 2 to 3 weeks  as the train was fully
loaded in a siding, his family being one of the earliest on the
train.
This would make 13th April seem a lot later than he remebers,does
this make any sense? He was also unaware of your discussions with
Witold on the same subject.

Kind regards
Richard Wieksza
Hertfordshire England
--- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ANTONI KAZIMIERSKI"
<askazimierski@...> wrote:
>
> Witold,
> you have touched a very important historical point about the timing
of deportations of osadnikow and their families.
> You are of the age, although few years younger than myself, to
remember something about the actual journeys. I have devoted a great
deal of time to study the timing of  journeys of families into the
depth of Siberia, but am not aware of earlier journeys than February
1940.
> Could you please try and recall the train size/ no of people or
families deported in that batch and location of the train at the
departure point and possible route from your home to Skorodumskaja
Province near Zaykovo in Irbit Forest in the area of Sverdlovsk. Were
there other trains about the same time, ie in December 1939?.
Presumably it was a cattle type of transport.Were you escorted by
milicja and what were the conditions while travelling?
> I ,and other members who contacted me , would be most grateful for
this information.
> Another point is whether you had any information about your
deportation from Karta. In the  books I have there are a number of
Szymanski families listed from Lwowskie, but not yours that I can
see.Their deportation was in February 1940.
> antoni530
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello Witek,

I'm inclined to disagree slightly with your comment about second-class
citizenship treatment in Britain just after the War.

My father was one of a handful of very lucky Polish military personnel to win a
scholarship to attend university. He graduated with a degree in mechanical
engineering. {He was fluent in English.}

He experienced the very same treatment thereafter you've expressed. The best job
he could get was to either work in the mines or clean windows.

The government's policy at the time, either formal or informal, was to give jobs
[perhaps the best jobs] to all the Englishmen who had returned home from the
War.

I see nothing wrong with that. It is logical to consider the English looked
after their own in the first instance. {If I had personally experienced this
prejudice as you and my father did, perhaps I would regard the situation in a
different light.}

We fled to America and subsequently came to Australia, and guess what!

My father had the very same experience regarding employment. His degree was
recognised in Australia but it was a situation of jobs for the Australian boys
[returned miliary personnel], and the best he could get was  menial clerical
type work...plus he was a foreigner with a funny name, and that wasn't helpful
in the early days.

My father eventually made good, and I assume that you too have done well.

Konrad Wraczynski
Adelaide
Australia





   ----- Original Message -----
   From: WITOLD SZYMANSKI
   To: Elizabeth Olsson
   Cc: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:37 PM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Emailing: MyID.jpg


   Hello Elzunia,

   Here is a copy of my ID, which we, Poles, had to have, as soon as we reached
the age of sixteen.
   You'll notice, that my birthday is a year different. This was done by my most
caring Mother, who did not want me to go to Russian school, so she took a year
off my birthday.

   We were treated as second class citezens, here in England, just after the WW2.

   When I quolified as a design draugthsman, I could not get a job in my field,
because I did not have British citezenship.

   It was some years later, in 1966, when I established my own engineering
business, when I took British citezenship.

   It is great to see that such attitudes have changed for the better with the
unity of Europe, when Poles are welcome, and appriciated, to work in U.K. and
elsewhere.

   Kind regarrds, Witek.
   The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
   MyID.jpg

   Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending
or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail security
settings to determine how attachments are handled.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Antoni,

Let me just tell you, that I did not know the exact date of our deportation,
until I got that document from the Russian Embassy in London.

I do remember the arrest of our father, because, not only we missed him for a
few days, every crying and dispear, but also, when he was set free, he told us
all about his ordeal and that he was sentenced to be shot in Krylow, but for
some intervention by the local "chlopy".

I suppose, that the reason for us having been in the first transport to the
labour camp must have been, that our name was on top of the list for
deportation.

Best wishes & regards, Witold.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: ANTONI KAZIMIERSKI
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:28 PM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re:yourv documents


   Witek thanks for your posting. Please forgive me I did not wish to imly of any
arguments; it is just an educational fact that you are presenting the group. I
am quite sure not one person is aware that trains were loaded as early as your
dates.
   It was not intended as an argument. I am so glad you sent a copy to Elzunia as
well. Thank you for sharing this news with all of us.
   Antoni

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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8:20 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard,
I agree with you wholy; I too come from Stolpce area.
The arrests of people started in late December 1939 after the confirmation by
Beria to the Presidium of the actions he was taking. We too were searched for
and had to escape to stay with families and friends as best as we could, but
there were people caught and held in readiness for the trains. I am not sure at
what date the trains were actually ready; there were stories that people were
loaded into them in January. In the lists I have some trains were in place for
loading by 1st February 1940.
Witold's family were removed from their home on 29th December 1939, but I do not
know when they arrived to Sverdlovskaja oblast. His Russian document does not
specify the date of arrival only removal ('????????'.)
antoni530
In so many of my searches and references to Russian lists and Karta, this is the
first family -as  far as I know, which differs from the usual deportation
schedule and all of us would be pleased to hear Witold's contribution, I am
sure. We might have to study more to learn about those early events of 1939.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9860963

Horror films
Sep 27th 2007
From Economist.com

Why eastern Europe needs Hollywood


"KATYN", the new film by Andrzej Wajda, Poland's best-known director, should
leave you shaken and sleepless. It is worth seeing just for the scene in which
the senate of Cracow University is arrested en masse by the Nazi occupiers, as
well as for as the almost unbearably realistic execution scenes in which Soviet
murder squads kill 22,000 captured officers, and also for the way it portrays
the attempts by the communist lie machine in post-war Poland to cover up the
truth.

Yet for all its passion and authenticity, the film is disappointingly muddled,
and too narrowly focussed on a Polish audience. Popular culture demands a strong
and simple story line to make reality convincing to the jaded sensibilities of a
modern international audience. Mr Wajda fails that test: he uses too many
characters, and too much detail distracts the viewer from the central message.
What is really needed is a film with the broad sweep of "Schindler's List" that
will explain the full horror of Soviet dictatorship both during and after the
war.

The lack of archival footage is a problem. It is all to easy to see films
showing the Nazi concentration camps, while even still pictures of the Gulag are
scarce and grainy. That need not be a snag for those with the budgets to stage
re-enactments. This is what Mr Wajda has done with "Katyn". Now a plethora of
other stories cry out for the same treatment.

First should be the Kengir uprising of 1954. After Stalin's death, a huge prison
camp in Soviet Kazakhstan revolted and maintained an astonishing six weeks of
freedom from May 16th to June 25th. The camp's inmates-mainly Ukrainians, with a
sprinkling of Balts and Russians-outfaced and out-organised the bureaucrats and
goons who ran the camp, until in the end they fell victim to a full-scale
military assault. Almost unknown in the West until Aleksander Solzhenitsyn's
account in the "Gulag Archipelago" the Kengir rebels deserve to be remembered
and honoured for their Masada-like courage, ingenuity and solidarity.

AFPAndrzej Wajda, director of "Katyn"
Second should be the deportations to Siberia from the Baltic states and
elsewhere in eastern Europe. "Collect your things!" barks the arresting NKVD
officer in the Wajda film to a woman and child whose only "crime" is to be the
family of a Polish officer-who by then is already dead in a ditch in a forest
near Smolensk. Such hurried packing in the middle of the night, followed by a
cattle-truck to Siberia, was the fate of tens of thousands of people across the
Soviet-occupied territories of eastern Europe in a few June days in 1941. Those
few that returned came home not as heroes but as released criminals, living on
the fringes of Soviet society.

Third should be the "Forest brothers" of the Baltic states and western Ukraine,
as well as the Polish "Home Army". They maintained a doomed struggle against the
Soviet occupiers in some cases until the late 1950s. The last Estonian partisan,
August Sabbe, survived until 1978. Betrayed by traitors in Britain's MI6 in the
late 1940s, their story makes Rambo's adventures in Indochina seem like
Disney-style pap.

Perhaps most gripping of all is the story of Witold Pilecki, a Polish
intelligence officer who volunteered to be imprisoned in Auschwitz in order to
find out what was happening there. When he escaped and reported to the Allies
what he had discovered, they said he was exaggerating. After the war, he was
captured by the communist authorities and executed in 1948.

If the screenwriters get going, the West's historical understanding will
belatedly gain some balance. But do bring plenty of handkerchiefs.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/09.27/11-whowon.html

Scholar addresses question, 'Who won World War II in Europe?'
By Corydon Ireland

Harvard News Office

Who won World War II in Europe?

There's no easy answer, said Norman Davies, an Oxford-educated British historian
and Poland specialist who has written widely on the 1939-1945 conflict.

During the Wiktor Weintraub Memorial lecture, sponsored by the Davis Center for
Russian and Eurasian Studies, Davies used the disarming question as a wedge to
pry open the real story of the war in Europe.

It wasn't the "good war" of liberation and victory that is widely celebrated in
the West, he contended. World War II was - if measured by sheer duration and by
the scale of killing - a grinding struggle in eastern and central Europe that
pitted one tyranny against another, then suffocated democracy in most of Europe
for decades.

The hour-long talk was delivered at Harvard Sept. 20. Sitting as rapt as
grade-schoolers were about 100 onlookers in the Thompson Room, which was jammed
from one polished wall to another.

Davies prides himself on having been a schoolteacher for four years before
getting down to the business of writing history. It was an experience that
taught him the usefulness of big questions, and the narrative power of analogy.

He's written 13 books since 1972, including the recent historical survey,
"Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory." In it, he tries to adjust the
perspective that the brunt of the war was borne by the Western powers.

A few years ago, while writing his book "Rising 44: The Battle for Warsaw,"
Davies said he was struck by how widespread misconceptions are about the war in
Europe. Celebrations in 2005 of the 60th anniversary of the war's end deepened
in him the idea that there was no real perspective on what happened in the
Soviet-Nazi war.

From June 1941 to the summer of 1944, this collision of two totalitarian powers
accounted for 80 percent of the fighting in World War II, said Davies - a fact
since largely obscured by a post-war fog of Allied mythmaking.

Among the Davies so-called myths:

That D-Day was big and decisive. (About 80 percent of German forces were lost on
the Eastern Front, he said, where the biggest battles raged.)

That the West triumphed over the Third Reich. (Germany was all but defeated by
the Soviets well before the Allies landed troops on the continent, he
contended.)

In fact, asserted Davies, it was the Red Army that played the decisive role in
defeating Germany, "and they were in the service of an evil tyranny."

Sheer numbers alone help dispel myths about the war, he said. In 1939, the
United States had half as many trained soldiers as Poland - and it took until
1944 to muster 100 American divisions. The Germans fielded 230 divisions, and
the Soviets as many as 400.

Other numbers tell the story of the scale and horror that characterized the
Soviet war. Davies asserted that more men were shot by Stalin's secret police
during the war, for instance, than were lost by the entire armed forces of Great
Britain.

And epic battles? Try the six-month battle for Stalingrad, he said, where 1.5
million were killed. Or the monumental clash of Soviet and Nazi tanks, planes,
and soldiers during the battle of Kursk in 1943. More than 6,000 tanks were
involved, almost as many planes, and a staggering 2.2 million soldiers.

As for the myth that the war liberated Europe, said Davies: Most of Europe went
from being under Hitler's boot to being under Stalin's.

Poland, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, and other nations at the crossroads of
combat were gobbled up by the Soviets in 1944 and early 1945, while the Red Army
idled outside Berlin waiting for the Allies to creep toward the Rhine.

Winning a war means defeating an enemy, collapsing its economy, destroying its
political structure - then replacing it with another. By those terms, Davies
averred, the Soviets won the war in Europe.

Militarily, the Allies contributed less than the Soviets to the defeat of
Germany, he said. Politically, they failed to restore democracy to most of
Europe.

Poland, for one, had staked its future on an Allied victory, and in the meantime
suffered the highest civilian casualty rate of any European power. In the end,
the freedom guaranteed by the Allies "never happened," said Davies.

A small number of concentration camp survivors were liberated, but they are not
symbolic of a liberated Europe, he said. "Their places were soon taken by waves
of other captives [under the Soviets], which is often forgotten and rarely
imagined."

In sum, World War II in Europe was not a "bipolar" event pitting the forces of
good against the forces of evil, said Davies. It was a war with three sides: the
titans of Germany and the Soviet Union, and the Western powers - whose armies
entered the fighting too late and too weakly to turn the tide against Germany.
Even Lend-Lease supplies, he said, were "too late to tip the war on the Eastern
Front."

This is not to denigrate the contribution of American forces, said Davies. They
were simply unprepared early on, came into the European war too late, and were
preoccupied with the war against Japan. "The two tasks were too much," said
Davies.

It was also the Pacific war that forced the United States to look the other way
at Stalin's land and power grabs, said Davies, since the Red Army was needed for
"the final battle" in Japan.

Davies ended his talk by telling the story of one man, his father-in-law, whose
"fate is a sort of parable of what happened to Eastern Europe." A Polish
biologist, he was arrested by the Germans in 1939, a month after the outbreak of
war, and imprisoned at Dachau and Matthausen for being in the academic elite.

He survived the war in German concentration camps, only to be liberated, then
arrested, by the Soviets - for having survived the camps. Couldn't only a
fascist sympathizer have done that?

He was tortured by the Gestapo in 1939, then again by the Soviet secret police
in 1945 - both times "on the same oak table in the same police station" in his
hometown, said Davies.

"This doubled experience" is the essence of the what happened on the dominant
front during the Second World War," he concluded - the clash in the East "of two
murderous regimes which destroyed millions of people for no logical reason."


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It was a cattle truck train, in which we were deported to Russian slavoury
"kolhoz".
Inside those trucks, there were "prycze", so as to squeeze more human beings,
like sardins.

There was no heating of any kind. It was freezing outside, as well as inside the
trucks we were in.

For a toilet, there was one hole cut out in the middle of the truck.
Fortunately, somebody created a sort of a "parawn", for a bit of privacy.
It was absolutely horrid, even to think, that people (red Russians) could behave
in such abhorent and atroucious way towards other slavs.

I don't remember the exact numbers of trucks in our train, but it was fairly
long, because
there were two lockomotives, one at end of the train.

The inhumane behaviour of our persecutors was vivid at evry step of our
suffering.
We were allowed to collect some "kipiatok", when the train stopped to top up
with water.The pilfering thieves didn't need to top up with coal, because they
had robbed, as much, as they needed from Poland.

I can e-mail you my memoires called "Human Traces", if you like, in which I
wrote about different topics.

Bey for now. Witold.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: richardwieksza
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:13 AM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Deportations


   Antoni,
   This is a relevent point at the moment as I spoke to my father
   yesterday concerning his deportation and the date of the train from
   Stolpce to Kotchetav. He is 95% sure although not certain that
   Christmas had not yet come when he was taken to the train at Stolpce.
   He then says they waited some 2 to 3 weeks as the train was fully
   loaded in a siding, his family being one of the earliest on the
   train.
   This would make 13th April seem a lot later than he remebers,does
   this make any sense? He was also unaware of your discussions with
   Witold on the same subject.

   Kind regards
   Richard Wieksza
   Hertfordshire England
   --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ANTONI KAZIMIERSKI"
   <askazimierski@...> wrote:
   >
   > Witold,
   > you have touched a very important historical point about the timing
   of deportations of osadnikow and their families.
   > You are of the age, although few years younger than myself, to
   remember something about the actual journeys. I have devoted a great
   deal of time to study the timing of journeys of families into the
   depth of Siberia, but am not aware of earlier journeys than February
   1940.
   > Could you please try and recall the train size/ no of people or
   families deported in that batch and location of the train at the
   departure point and possible route from your home to Skorodumskaja
   Province near Zaykovo in Irbit Forest in the area of Sverdlovsk. Were
   there other trains about the same time, ie in December 1939?.
   Presumably it was a cattle type of transport.Were you escorted by
   milicja and what were the conditions while travelling?
   > I ,and other members who contacted me , would be most grateful for
   this information.
   > Another point is whether you had any information about your
   deportation from Karta. In the books I have there are a number of
   Szymanski families listed from Lwowskie, but not yours that I can
   see.Their deportation was in February 1940.
   > antoni530
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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8:20 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Konrad,

Rather than argue, please find a copy of my ID. On the second page, you'll find
printed in red the conditions of emplyment during those years, which the British
Government had
applied to their allies, who fought for their freedom (and ours?), especially
the Polish pilots, who contributed so much during the battle of Britain, that
even Churchill made a comment, that: "Never in the human conflict, so few have
done so much for Britain", or something to that extend.

I stayed in U.K., for I did not want to disturb my education for the third time
(in Teheran, in Uganda and here, while at the Polish boarding grammar school
(Gimnazjum i Liceum im. Mikolaja Kopernika), but I do recollect having been
called bloody foreigner
and worse. That was how Great Britain thanked their allies, not only here, but
in Teheran and in Yalta.

I could go on and on, but i'll finish for now.

Kind regards, Witold.


The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
IDtato2.jpg

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or receiving certain types of file attachments.  Check your e-mail security
settings to determine how attachments are handled.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Witold,
"Human Traces", is this information that could be
added to our files. I would love to read it. When you
get a chance go to the files and read some of the
great stories. Carol Celinska Dove


--- WITOLD SZYMANSKI <witold.szymanski@...>
wrote:

> It was a cattle truck train, in which we were
> deported to Russian slavoury "kolhoz".
> Inside those trucks, there were "prycze", so as to
> squeeze more human beings, like sardins.
>
> There was no heating of any kind. It was freezing
> outside, as well as inside the trucks we were in.
>
> For a toilet, there was one hole cut out in the
> middle of the truck.
> Fortunately, somebody created a sort of a "parawn",
> for a bit of privacy.
> It was absolutely horrid, even to think, that people
> (red Russians) could behave in such abhorent and
> atroucious way towards other slavs.
>
> I don't remember the exact numbers of trucks in our
> train, but it was fairly long, because
> there were two lockomotives, one at end of the
> train.
>
> The inhumane behaviour of our persecutors was vivid
> at evry step of our suffering.
> We were allowed to collect some "kipiatok", when the
> train stopped to top up with water.The pilfering
> thieves didn't need to top up with coal, because
> they had robbed, as much, as they needed from
> Poland.
>
> I can e-mail you my memoires called "Human Traces",
> if you like, in which I wrote about different
> topics.
>
> Bey for now. Witold.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: richardwieksza
>   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:13 AM
>   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re: Deportations
>
>
>   Antoni,
>   This is a relevent point at the moment as I spoke
> to my father
>   yesterday concerning his deportation and the date
> of the train from
>   Stolpce to Kotchetav. He is 95% sure although not
> certain that
>   Christmas had not yet come when he was taken to
> the train at Stolpce.
>   He then says they waited some 2 to 3 weeks as the
> train was fully
>   loaded in a siding, his family being one of the
> earliest on the
>   train.
>   This would make 13th April seem a lot later than
> he remebers,does
>   this make any sense? He was also unaware of your
> discussions with
>   Witold on the same subject.
>
>   Kind regards
>   Richard Wieksza
>   Hertfordshire England
>   --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "ANTONI
> KAZIMIERSKI"
>   <askazimierski@...> wrote:
>   >
>   > Witold,
>   > you have touched a very important historical
> point about the timing
>   of deportations of osadnikow and their families.
>   > You are of the age, although few years younger
> than myself, to
>   remember something about the actual journeys. I
> have devoted a great
>   deal of time to study the timing of journeys of
> families into the
>   depth of Siberia, but am not aware of earlier
> journeys than February
>   1940.
>   > Could you please try and recall the train size/
> no of people or
>   families deported in that batch and location of
> the train at the
>   departure point and possible route from your home
> to Skorodumskaja
>   Province near Zaykovo in Irbit Forest in the area
> of Sverdlovsk. Were
>   there other trains about the same time, ie in
> December 1939?.
>   Presumably it was a cattle type of transport.Were
> you escorted by
>   milicja and what were the conditions while
> travelling?
>   > I ,and other members who contacted me , would be
> most grateful for
>   this information.
>   > Another point is whether you had any information
> about your
>   deportation from Karta. In the books I have there
> are a number of
>   Szymanski families listed from Lwowskie, but not
> yours that I can
>   see.Their deportation was in February 1940.
>   > antoni530
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Zbyszku,

Taking this issue of "home sapiens" about "lochy", there were many other simple
and at the same practical utilization of nature around us, such as "wodne
mlyny".
In Wolyn alone, there some three hundred such, clean energy, water turnbines,
which were not only used to grind corn, crush sugar beet etc., but also they
harnessed to run wood mills. All this was going on way back many centuries ago.
And some of them are still going strong to this day.

Now, everyone is panicking about polusion and weather changes caused by gas
emission and all sorts, instead of taking a good example from the past.

Cheers, Witek.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: b_styrna
   To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:11 PM
   Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Food while in exile


   Witold,

   you make a very good point.

   This "loch" you mentioned is Polish name for dungeon or cellar. We
   had these things in Poland I remember where I grew up. That is where we
   kept the harvested potatoes, vegetables, apples, etc. through the winter
   , etc..

   In new homes in North America some Europeans have such a cellar ,
   usually in the basement under their front door step to keep food stuff
   cool. The basement is insulated and heated but not this small storage
   room. I have wine cellar like this.

   This is very interesting because 6 feet (about 2 meters) under the
   surface of the ground, the temperature is very stable at about 50
   degrees F. no matter if it is in summer or winter even though the
   outdoor temperatures may vary from minus 40 degrees to plus 120 Degrees
   F.

   In addition, because of this known guaranteed stable underground
   temperature of 50 F, we use this to heat our homes using new
   "Geothermal" furnaces. They are expensive to install, but is is the
   way of the future because, it is extremely cheap to heat or air
   condition a home using such a system. About $20 per month for whole
   house. It is so cheap, that I can't believe why governments don't pass a
   law requiring all new homes/buildings to be heated and air conditioned
   by such a system and old homes to be retrofitted with such a system.

   Narazie

   Zbyszek

   --- In Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com, "WITOLD SZYMANSKI"
   <witold.szymanski@...> wrote:
   >
   > Eve,
   > You touched on a very interesting topic. Home made bread. Deliciously
   healthy.
   >
   > No, there were no fridges, or freezers, in Polish villages before the
   WW2.
   > There were, though, far better means of keeping all perishable produce
   fresh, better than our fridges.
   > We, I remember, have had a huge "loch". It was underground storage
   with steps. This was, as I mentioned earlier, far better than to-day's
   fridges and, after construction,cost nothing.
   >
   > As far, as home baking; it was good old Babcia, Mamusia and ofter the
   eldest siostra, yes, three generation practising the art of home baking,
   not only healthy and delicious rye bread, but also othe baked goodies.
   Hense "Drozdzowa babka" etc.
   >
   > I live in north Wales, U.K., but to enjoy my daily rye bread, I have
   to get it all the way from Bradford, in Yorkshire. We freeze the bread
   and thow it out, evrytime we finish one loaf.
   > Mind you, my wife is absolutely wonderful cook. She, often bakes rye
   bread herself.
   > The only problem, she can't get suitable flour. The best one, she
   found out from experimenting, comes from Canada.
   >
   > I did mention, that my wife comes from Kresy. She was only just a two
   year old babe, when the NKWD, or KGB, took her family by force to their
   labour camp.
   >
   > My wife, Kazia lived with her mother and older sister, Irena, in the
   same settlement in Masindi, Uganda.
   >
   > Coinsidently, or by fate, we met at a Christmas dance in 1954. The
   rest is a happy history.
   > We have thre grown up children and four wonderful grandchildren. The
   eldest, Samantha,
   > is 21 years old. Had finished high school and is working, not far from
   wher we live.
   >
   > I better finsh, before I get on and on, though there is, certainly
   plenty to tell.
   > Perhaps some other time.
   >
   > Best wishes to All Kersowiaki/Sybiraki. Witek & Kazia Szymanscy z
   Wolynia i spod Lwowa.
   >
   >
   >






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8:20 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Witold,
thank you for your description of the transport; seems just like all the other
trains that many of us were put in during that cold winter. We travelled to the
North into Archangielskaja oblast arriving there in latter part of February
1940.I thought perhaps travelling earlier a different freight was employed.
Recently I got a list of trains that were used to deport Latvian citizens in
1941 to various parts of USSR. The curious thing is that the escort for those
trains was by the same Brigades as those used in Polish deportations , with
added support of NKVD.
antoni530.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My father Wladyslaw Gmitrowicz from Wolyn told me he too was taken a few days
after Christmas and was put on a cattle truck to Archangelsk. After joining this
group I assumed he had his dates muddled and he must have meant February, maybe
I shouldn't have made that assumption.

Chris,
Sutton Coldfield, England


To: Kresy-Siberia@...: askazimierski@...: Fri, 28
Sep 2007 10:19:40 +0100Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re:Deportations




Richard,I agree with you wholy; I too come from Stolpce area.The arrests of
people started in late December 1939 after the confirmation by Beria to the
Presidium of the actions he was taking. We too were searched for and had to
escape to stay with families and friends as best as we could, but there were
people caught and held in readiness for the trains. I am not sure at what date
the trains were actually ready; there were stories that people were loaded into
them in January. In the lists I have some trains were in place for loading by
1st February 1940.Witold's family were removed from their home on 29th December
1939, but I do not know when they arrived to Sverdlovskaja oblast. His Russian
document does not specify the date of arrival only removal
('????????'.)antoni530In so many of my searches and references to Russian lists
and Karta, this is the first family -as far as I know, which differs from the
usual deportation schedule and all of us would be pleased to hear Witold's
contribution, I am sure. We might have to study more to learn about those early
events of 1939.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






_________________________________________________________________
Celeb spotting – Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes
https://www.celebmashup.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When I look at what Antoni was able to get on my
family the date of arrest is not listed. We do have
the 124 Kopytovo, Kotlas arriving on 26/2/1940. I have
the papers from Hoover with 1939 being the date 12
came to the farm to get them. My family was split up
with Grandmother and 3 daughters being taken first.
Next grandfather and the rest of the children and maid
that cared for children. I will check with my father
to see if he remembers any timelines. My aunt
remembers seeing her mother at the train on Feb 10.
This also happens to be her birthday. They could not
move from the location as my aunt said they would just
shoot you.

Maybe we would be better off going by #124 and end
location.  If my family left on 10/Feb/1940 in fully
loaded box cars it took 16 days to first (where sme
got off)destination. This was where my grandfather's
group got off. My grandmother and the 3 oldest
daughters stayed on going to Vorkuta. This was a HQ
and may have been because they wanted females at that
location. It was not a choice issue.

Carol Celinska Dove


--- chris gmitrowicz <chrisgmitrowicz@...>
wrote:

>
> My father Wladyslaw Gmitrowicz from Wolyn told me he
> too was taken a few days after Christmas and was put
> on a cattle truck to Archangelsk. After joining this
> group I assumed he had his dates muddled and he must
> have meant February, maybe I shouldn't have made
> that assumption.
>
> Chris,
> Sutton Coldfield, England
>
>
> To: Kresy-Siberia@...:
> askazimierski@...: Fri, 28 Sep 2007
> 10:19:40 +0100Subject: [Kresy-Siberia]
> Re:Deportations
>
>
>
>
> Richard,I agree with you wholy; I too come from
> Stolpce area.The arrests of people started in late
> December 1939 after the confirmation by Beria to the
> Presidium of the actions he was taking. We too were
> searched for and had to escape to stay with families
> and friends as best as we could, but there were
> people caught and held in readiness for the trains.
> I am not sure at what date the trains were actually
> ready; there were stories that people were loaded
> into them in January. In the lists I have some
> trains were in place for loading by 1st February
> 1940.Witold's family were removed from their home on
> 29th December 1939, but I do not know when they
> arrived to Sverdlovskaja oblast. His Russian
> document does not specify the date of arrival only
> removal ('????????'.)antoni530In so many of my
> searches and references to Russian lists and Karta,
> this is the first family -as far as I know, which
> differs from the usual deportation schedule and all
> of us would be pleased to hear Witold's
> contribution, I am sure. We might have to study more
> to learn about those early events of 1939.[Non-text
> portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Celeb spotting – Play CelebMashup and win cool
> prizes
> https://www.celebmashup.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
> Please support the group by subscribing and by
> making a donation: http://www.kresy-siberia.org
>
>
****************************************************************************
>  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE
> RECOGNITION
>  "Dedicated to researching, remembering and
> recognising the Polish citizens
>  deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union
> during World War Two."
>
****************************************************************************
>  Discussion
> site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
>  Virtual Memorial Wall
> http://www.kresy-siberia.org/memorial/
>  Gallery (photos, documents)
> http://www.kresy-siberia.org/photo.html
>  Booklist http://www.kresy-siberia.org/books.html
>  Film http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
>
****************************************************************************
>
> To CONTACT the Group Moderators please send an
> e-mail to:
>   Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
>
>  saying who you are and describing your interest in
> the group to:
>  Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
>  Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
****************************************************************************
>
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>
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>




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This is what my mother says (she grew up on Osada Krechowiecka, Wolyn,
outside Rowne)
“Bread (and cakes) was made at home, from our own flour, wholemeal or
white. Bakery was at osada Hallerowo, sometimes we bought white rolls in
their shop.
Meat: we had our own cows, pigs, chickens, ducks, turkeys and rabbits.

My Dad had about 13 h. farmland. We grew all types of corn, potatoes,
all vegetables,
soft fruits, also apples, pears, plums.  From ours cows we had milk,
cottage
cheese, butter, “maslanke i kwasne mleko”. We had plenty of fresh food.
We were never hungry at our farm.”

pozdrowienia
Elzunia Olsson
Sweden
Gallery Administrator
http://www.kresy-siberia.org/photo.html



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

If you'd like to find out the exact date your father was deported, write to
the Russian Embassy in London and ask them. They'll provide you with
documents from their archives, like they did for me.

I'll mail you their adress, or can find it on the internet.

Regards, Witold Szymanski, n. Wales.
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris gmitrowicz" <chrisgmitrowicz@...>
To: <kresy-siberia@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Kresy-Siberia] Re:Deportations



My father Wladyslaw Gmitrowicz from Wolyn told me he too was taken a few
days after Christmas and was put on a cattle truck to Archangelsk. After
joining this group I assumed he had his dates muddled and he must have meant
February, maybe I shouldn't have made that assumption.

Chris,
Sutton Coldfield, England


To: Kresy-Siberia@...: askazimierski@...:
Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:19:40 +0100Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Re:Deportations




Richard,I agree with you wholy; I too come from Stolpce area.The arrests of
people started in late December 1939 after the confirmation by Beria to the
Presidium of the actions he was taking. We too were searched for and had to
escape to stay with families and friends as best as we could, but there were
people caught and held in readiness for the trains. I am not sure at what
date the trains were actually ready; there were stories that people were
loaded into them in January. In the lists I have some trains were in place
for loading by 1st February 1940.Witold's family were removed from their
home on 29th December 1939, but I do not know when they arrived to
Sverdlovskaja oblast. His Russian document does not specify the date of
arrival only removal ('????????'.)antoni530In so many of my searches and
references to Russian lists and Karta, this is the first family -as far as I
know, which differs from the usual deportation schedule and all of us would
be pleased to hear Witold's contribution, I am sure. We might have to study
more to learn about those early events of 1939.[Non-text portions of this
message have been removed]






_________________________________________________________________
Celeb spotting - Play CelebMashup and win cool prizes
https://www.celebmashup.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please support the group by subscribing and by making a donation:
http://www.kresy-siberia.org

****************************************************************************
  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = RESEARCH REMEMBRANCE RECOGNITION
  "Dedicated to researching, remembering and recognising the Polish citizens
  deported, enslaved and killed by the Soviet Union during World War Two."
****************************************************************************
  Discussion site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia/
  Virtual Memorial Wall http://www.kresy-siberia.org/memorial/
  Gallery (photos, documents) http://www.kresy-siberia.org/photo.html
  Booklist http://www.kresy-siberia.org/books.html
  Film http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
****************************************************************************
To CONTACT the Group Moderators please send an e-mail to:
   Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com


To SUBSCRIBE to the discussion group, send an e-mail
  saying who you are and describing your interest in the group to:
  Kresy-Siberia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

  To UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
  Kresy-Siberia-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

****************************************************************************
Yahoo! Groups Links





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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.33/1034 - Release Date: 9/27/2007
5:00 PM

Hi Aleks
My mother's family (Maczka) who lived on Osada Krechowiecka outside
Rowne were also at Posiolek Monastyriok. Several other members' families
were also there. You can see it on the map here, nr 104
http://gallery.kresy-siberia.org/SovietCamps/ArchangelCamps

pozdrowienia
Elzunia Olsson
Sweden
Gallery Administrator
http://www.kresy-siberia.org/photo.html


-----Original Message-----
From: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of ANTONI KAZIMIERSKI
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:05 PM
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Domaradzki family

Alex, I had a look at RUssian list and there is a lot of reference to
this family name. Likewise in Karta Index.
Domaradzki Feliks,1891 son Feliksa in Lowicze as well as the following;
Florentina 1890, c Macieja; Danuta 1925,;Halina 1919 c Zygmunta;
Wojciech son Feliksa 1935; Hubert 1913 son Feliksa ; Zygmunt 1914 were
deported to Gladino posiolek no 88 near Kotlas arriving there on 11
07-1940 and amnestied on 31-08-1940
Taborik family Elzbieta c Jana 1935 at Szubki, Rowne to Monastyrok on
3-04-1940. Krystyna c Jana 1934 and there are two Zofias one c Jana 1937
and second c Benedicta 1906 from Iwanowicze at Rowne to Monastyrok
posiolek no 104 on 29-02-1940.
Aleks it is worth your while writing to 'Memorial' in Moscow and obtain
a spravka for both these families.
If you write to me directly I'll send you a print of Karta entries out
of my book and a list of trains.
antoni530

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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