In the old days when people weren't able to do something
they commissioned others to do it for them.  Italian city
states hired professional, mercenary soldiers, and
European nobles and
aristocrats paid artists to express their deepest
religious and personal feelings.
  What Poland underwent was a complex of acts of
aggression and murder punctuated by ebb and flow of
intensity. So the experience is very different from that
of the Jewish one which was a quite singular and focused
crime -
  and so it can be more easily described.
It seems that like many things about language growth,
words arise when there is a need for them. That sounds
simplistic but is a very complicatd activity...I am not
sure we understand it all too well.

How are these two points connected ?  Since language, and
its words, is not developed by committee (which probably
explains why we are having such a hard time) then very
likely the probabilities are against us to find an
adequate term.  We can nonetheless be on the lookout for
useful terms. Someone... somewhere in your daily
activities and lives, or in a publication you read, may
use a word that describes a terrible set of experiences,
quite differentiated over time, but occurring in
connection with a single, initial cause that will catch
your attention.  That may very well be a word that could
describe the Polish catastrophe. It need not be a
standard word; sometimes it is the new words that have
more descriptive power over the complexity of the
postmodern world.
My personal opinion is that we should not ask too much of
ourselves on this point.  Just be alert !  Something will
eventually come along !   Cass Glodek

For the group's information (keep our fingers crossed).
Isn't Wajda in Kraków these days?
--
Stefan Wisniowski

----------
From: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 02:42:17 +1000
To: <AgnieszkaKoszalka@...>
Subject: Wajda - www.wajda.pl

Hello Agnieszka

I was admiring your company's website on Andzrej Wajda, arguably Poland's
pre-eminent film personality.  As a son of Polish inteligencia myself, whose
family was arrested and deported to Siberia by the Soviets during the war, I
was struck by his family history - and with the loss of his father to the
Soviets during the war.

I wonder if you can assist me with getting an enquiry to Mr Wajda.  As the
maker of so many films about the Polish experience, the latest being
Korczak, is there any possibility of his being interested in a film
dramatising the true stories of the Polish citizens deported to Siberia
during the war, brutalised by the Soviets as "enemies of the people"?

Mr Wajda speaks of how, in Poland, the fate of his father, Captain Jakub
Wajda, who was murdered by the Soviets at Katyn, was suppressed for 50 years
- erased from history.  In the West, the story of the Polish experience
under Soviet war-time occupation is still relatively unknown - and has no
history,

Like the deportees in Jacek Malczewski's painting "Wigilia na Syberii",
listed as one of Mr Wajda's "favourites", the Poles deported to the USSR
never lost their faith, while braving harsh conditions of forced labour.
Though many died, many others survived to join new Polish armies formed in
the USSR in 1941-42  to fight the Nazis in Europe (under the British and
under the Soviets).

Those who survived Siberia to serve in "Anders Army" under British command
fought as patriots, but did not have happy outcomes.  Those who stayed in
the West after the war were not treated as heros, but as a political
embarrassment to the Soviet Allies - they were forced to make new lives as
refugees and immigrants.  Those who returned to Poland were not treated as
heros either, but were arrested and sent back to Siberia as "enemies of the
people".

Those who lasted out the war in the USSR and were eventually allowed to
leave were not able to return to their own homes, but had to live under
communist rule in unfamiliar territories "reclaimed" from Germany after the
war.

Has Mr Wajda ever considered making a film about this episode of the Polish
experience?  Would he consider it in the future?  What might it take to
engage his interest?

I know from your website that in the past, Mr Wajda has not been a big fan
of computers, the internet and e-mail.  Perhaps you could pass this letter
of request on to him, with my greatest respect and gratitude.

Sincerely,
--
Stefan Wisniowski
Level 7, 50 King Street
Sydney NSW 2000 Australia

Tel +61 2 9299 8138
Fax +61 2 9299 8168
Mob +61 4 1186 4873
E-mail swisniowski@...
www.px.com.au

As some of you suggest, at this very time we should remember the Polish hero, fallen in the Warsaw Uprising, many of them victims to the Ukrainian madness. A caring Pole may find a reliable account of this wartime tragedy in "Forgotten Holocaust" by dr. Lucas. He may read about the sadistic Ukrainian gangs that plundered and killed for the sake of destroying property and life in vile pleasure, often derived from beating and raping Polish women. This excess of cruelty was too much even for the German commander. He had the chief Ukrainian removed from the command, and very likely from living humans, forever.
S.Kowalski

I am doing my little bit in NZ.  In connection of my showing the Odyssey
in Russell I had a Radio Interview by Far North Station ( a lot of Maori
population ) and two newspapers articles.   Also I have a speaking
engagement on the subject at a charity fund raising function.  In any
case the point of my comment is we should, in addition to, of just
showing the film, attack the problem of lack of knowledge by general
population in other ways.


On 6 Aug 2002 at 13:47, Eve5J@... wrote:

> Stefan,
> Yes, you are right, and we discussed this a long time ago,
> remember?   I have always said that the best way to truly
> get the word out to the world is via movie.  Most of the world no
> longer reads; however, practically everyone goes to the movies or
> rents videos.  This is the best way to inform the world.
>
> Most movies begin as books.  If we got one of the directors
> listed below, the director would have to hire someone to write
> the screenplay.  It would be better to present said director with an
> already completed book or at least an outline, and take it from there.
>  It cannot be a history book per se.  It could be a family history or
> a fictionalized, but historically correct, Polish family or two,
> comprised of many Polish families.
>
> To assure that as many potential female and male viewers
> would go to see the film as possible, I suggest that it not be
> overly focused on warfare.  In other words, I don't think fighting
> should be the major thrust, rather:  the beautiful life that was had
> prior to the war, the deportation train experience, life at the
> "camps," granting of amnesty, trek to Southern Russia, Persia
> crossing, life in the Mideast,  Anders Army experience, end of war,
> Allied betrayal, life in England, starting anew in other countries
> with a happy ending, as life goes full circle with the birth of we
> "Baby Boomers."
>
> We have many writers on this list, so get those fingers flying,
> and your queries out, while also lessening the 6 degrees.
> Although a Polish director would be the ideal, any excellent,
> experienced director would be fine also?
>
> And Stefan, to switch the subject a little, as I just wrote this, I
> thought of our first word that we used when we began our
> correspondence, and that is:  SAGA!  How many emails did we exchange
> with this word as the subject line?  I think it's perfect!  What do
> you say to the "Polish Saga" group?
>
> Eve Jankowicz
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Eve,
>
> Doesn't this just mean that we need to get more serious about getting
> OUR story out and finding a world-class film-maker to make the
> dramatised movie?  OUR "Schindler's List".
>
> Where is Andrzej Wajda, Oscar-winning director whose father was shot
> at Katyn, on this?  (see http://www.wajda.pl/en/Default.html)
>
> Where are Roman Polanski, Krzystof Zanussi, and Agnieszka Holland when
> we need them?
>
> OK - we all know about "6 degrees of separation" - who knows somebody
> who can get a personal conversation going with Wajda (never mind who
> will fund the film for now...) -- Stefan Wisniowski > > From:
> Eve5J@... > > I was disturbed by George Neisser's post (#1763, 19
> July) > about the documentary film being made about the Jewish >
> deportee experience.  Although Jews were deported, they > were far
> from the majority, and I would hate to see this primarily > Polish
> "living hell" become a Jewish one.
>
>
>


John Roy-Wojciechowski
Honorary Consul,Republic of Poland
51 Granger Road, Howick, Auckland, New Zealand
Phone 649 5344670 Fax 649 5354068
e-mail polish@...  website www.polishheritage.co.nz

Rita (from Ontario, Canada) says her father served in the German Army, was
in a Soviet prison, then Anders Army and on to England and Scotland. She
wonders how he got from place to place.
   After the so-called "amnesty" for Polish prisoners, declared by Stalin,
many Poles found their way to Anders Army formed in the USSR. Aleksander
Topolski, in his memoirs "Without Vodka: Adventures in Wartime Russia"
describes his release from the Gulag under the "amnesty" and how he made his
way to Anders Army, and eventually to Scotland and England. Rita's father
probably had similar experiences.
    In the draft of his second volume of memoirs "Without A Roof = WAR",
Topolski makes several mentions of the many Poles who had been forced into
the German Army in WWII and so had to fight against the Allies in Italy.
However, many were able to cross over to join Anders Army. Here are some
excerpts from WAR:--

	 Some German captives turned out to be Poles. Fifty years later I met a
Polish fellow who showed me a clipping from a US Army paper of himself in a
German uniform in a jeep being escorted by an American soldier. To escape
the German occupation, he had volunteered to join a paramilitary German Todt
Organization and was sent to do construction work in Italy.  According to
him, he hitch-hiked to Cassino and went to the commanding officer of the
Parachute Division and told him he was fed up just building roads and wanted
to get into the real fighting. That, he explained, was how he got to the
front line and so was able to escape and cross over to our side. It doesn't
sound plausible to me that a commander would accept a stranger out of
nowhere and especially in this division which was composed of rigorously
selected volunteers. But I did see his photo in that clipping from the
Eighth Army News. He spent the rest of the war fighting with his fellow
Poles against the Germans.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	 One day [in Chieti] when I was looking out of my Signals office window onto
the street below, something caught my attention--a German soldier walking
along the street, hatless and rumpled. He was surrounded by about twenty
Italian soldiers, their rifles held waist high with fixed bayonets. His
escort looked tense, ready to shoot if he made one false step. To my
surprise, they turned towards the entrance to our building. Then I heard a
commotion downstairs. Moments later the tall Polish-speaking Italian Captain
came to my office. He told me they'd caught a German soldier who claimed to
be Polish and that was why they had brought him here.
	 "Fine," I said. "Show him in."
	 This seem to fluster the good captain. I don't think it was so much concern
for my safety being face to face with a German as for the loss of authority
over their prisoner. The Italians acted as if it was the first German they
had ever captured and didn't want to hand over their prize.
	 The German soldier was terrified. He believed his escort was an execution
squad marching him to his death and yet he could speak no Italian to find
out what was to become of him or to plead his case. His face brightened when
he found I spoke Polish and even more when the Italians with their bayonets
and rifles retreated with reluctance and left him alone with me. But before
they would abandon their prisoner to me they demanded assurance that I would
see that Col. Izdebski signed the proper paperwork. They wanted to make sure
that they got the full credit for capturing him and that we took full
responsibility for what happened to him next.
	 The "German" prisoner turned out to be yet another Pole who had been
conscripted into Hitler’s army. During the guerilla-type skirmishes in the
mountains, he took the first opportunity to surrender to the Allied side.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

              Winter war in the Apennines was a war of artillery duels,
constant patrolling and local skirmishes. We pushed forward bit by bit,
trying to establish the best possible position for the inevitable Spring
offensive [of 1945]. I moved with Main Corps HQ northwest from the hills of
Meldola to the flat ground west of Forli in the Po Valley. Our Polish Corps
was gaining strength in two ways. We got more and newer equipment. And,
despite casualties and having no way to enlist men in Poland, our numbers of
fighting men kept growing. For the first time each of our infantry divisions
had three infantry brigades instead of two. Three was the full complement,
which we had never had until then. Some of our new volunteers came from
parts of France where they had been lying low until the Allies pushed the
Germans out. And more Poles forced into service with the German Wehrmacht
had made their way over to our side. Anders took a risk in forming two
infantry brigades mainly from soldiers who'd come over from the German army.
Could we count on the loyalty of these soldiers who'd spent years fighting
in the German army in Russia and then in Italy? Any such fears proved to be
completely unfounded.  Anders was right. Those Poles who crossed over turned
out to be plus catholique que le pape.  They were well trained and cautious,
yet courageous when need be. Survival after years on the Russian front had
taught them caution. They also knew what would happen if they were taken
prisoner and recognized as a turncoat. After a German retreat, we found a
few such soldiers left out in plain view with their throats slashed.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

	 From Matera I was sent  back to San Basilio, the little town north of the
Gulf of Taranto where, fresh off the boat from Egypt, I had spent my first
night in a makeshift tent in the snow. I hardly recognized the place. It had
become a fully equipped and well organized training camp and base for the
new soldiers who kept arriving. Many of them were Poles who had come to us
from the German army. Being experienced battle veterans, they needed little
training. Some had served for two years with the Germans on the Russian
front and so they knew far more about fighting than we did. But they still
had to learn about the procedures of the Polish army and about the Allied
weapons new to them. However, old habits die hard. And Prussian army
knee-jerk reactions had been instilled in them. This led to some funny
situations. One of these vets dozed off on guard duty one night. The
footsteps of an officer, who happened to be going by that night, woke him up
with a start.
	 "Wer da!?!  Who goes there!?!" he challenged the officer in German, doing
his best to sound ferocious, alert and efficient. The officer was terrified.
He ran back to his mates and babbled on about a German parachute troops that
must have landed and already controlled part of the camp.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     This will give you an idea, Rita, of what happened to some of the Poles
like your father who were forced to fight in the German army and yet managed
to cross over, one way or another, to join Anders Army.
      Joan Eddis
      Ottawa, Ontario



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

Dear all:

On September 7th, I shall be accompanying my 80yr old Uncle to
Gainsborough in Lincolnshire, to attend the above reunion - when the
children of the former settlers come together to reunite, bound
together by their and our common experience.

This is the first time I will have attended (although my uncle has
been on many previous occasions) - if anyone would like further
information, let me know and I'll do my best to find out.


Michael Kulik
England

Stanislaw Szybalski

Paul Havers wrote:

 Ah

That honour must belong to the RONA Brigade composed of ex convicts and other riff raff who "Fought" with vigour against unarmed PoW's and women and children but who proved totally in adept of fighting a organised armed unit. I think they were commanded by either Dirlenwager or Kaminsky

Paul

At 08:41 08/06/2002 -0400, you wrote:

As some of you suggest, at this very time we should remember the Polish hero, fallen in the Warsaw Uprising, many of them victims to the Ukrainian madness. A caring Pole may find a reliable account of this wartime tragedy in "Forgotten Holocaust" by dr. Lucas. He may read about the sadistic Ukrainian gangs that plundered and killed for the sake of destroying property and life in vile pleasure, often derived from beating and raping Polish women. This excess of cruelty was too much even for the German commander. He had the chief Ukrainian removed from the command, and very likely from living humans, forever.
S.Kowalski

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Home page;  www.paulhavers.co.uk
Eastern Borderlands of II RP;  www.kresy.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
Checked by Norton Anti Virus 2002
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
*  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
*  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
**
*  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
*  and your interest in the group to:
*      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
***************************************************************************

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Thank you Krzysztof, I am very interested.  Do you have any contacts with
him, or is this something you have read about in the papers?
--
Stefan Wisniowski

> From: Christopher Lancucki <lancucki@...>
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 13:08:28 +1000
> To: swisniowski@...
> Subject: Polish Genocide
>
> Stefan,
> You may be interested to learn that Wajda is at present preparing to
> make a fabular film based on the Katyn massacre theme.
> Krzysztof Lancucki.
>
>
>

Hello group,
I would like to say that I think a film made about the Polish experience
would be better than any short and snappy name we could come up with.  Wajda
would be perfect.  Polanski just made a film (The Pianist) which will be out
soon.  I read the book shortly before I learned about Polanski's film --
thought it very good.  Anyway, not so much emphasis on the pre-war stuff,
except to explain who the chief characters are.  (Why do people think Poland
was paradise before WW2?  It was very poor -- look at the high figures for
economic emigration to the States, France, etc.; there was a military
dictatorship, bad anti-semitism, etc, etc)  But there must be lots of
background information available about the deportations, life in Siberia,
the armies and the eventual dispersal to all parts of the world.  I am
afraid too that I don't agree with a "happy ending" -- after seeing in the
mails of this group about how parents or relatives have had a hard time
coming to terms with their lives, even after so many years.  So a more
ambiguous ending would be more suitable.
Perhaps indeed out of a film, a general word to describe the experience
might turn up.  But I agree with Cass, something will come up somewhere when
it is not being forced.  Our current situation reminds me of an advertising
agency with people throwing words into the pot to see which one can be sold.
Barbara Davoust (née Jachowicz)

Your critique of pre war Poland is very interesting, but I suggest that you
study more the history before coming with your revelations.

I was born and raised in prewar Poland and I was lucky not to see those awful
things. You cannot compare life at that time to life today. Watching old
American movies I can say that we've better life in Poland than most of the
people in US. Of course there was poverty, but where you had no poverty in those
days after the depression in a country which was few years old after 130 years
of foreign occupation. Tell me in which country was no anti semityzm or rather
anti Jewishness ? Tell how much American Jews helped their brothers being
murdered by Germans and how many Poles were murdered  helping Jews.

Get busy studying.

Stanislaw Szybalski

Stanislaw Szybalski

b.davoust wrote:

> Hello group,
> I would like to say that I think a film made about the Polish experience
> would be better than any short and snappy name we could come up with.  Wajda
> would be perfect.  Polanski just made a film (The Pianist) which will be out
> soon.  I read the book shortly before I learned about Polanski's film --
> thought it very good.  Anyway, not so much emphasis on the pre-war stuff,
> except to explain who the chief characters are.  (Why do people think Poland
> was paradise before WW2?  It was very poor -- look at the high figures for
> economic emigration to the States, France, etc.; there was a military
> dictatorship, bad anti-semitism, etc, etc)  But there must be lots of
> background information available about the deportations, life in Siberia,
> the armies and the eventual dispersal to all parts of the world.  I am
> afraid too that I don't agree with a "happy ending" -- after seeing in the
> mails of this group about how parents or relatives have had a hard time
> coming to terms with their lives, even after so many years.  So a more
> ambiguous ending would be more suitable.
> Perhaps indeed out of a film, a general word to describe the experience
> might turn up.  But I agree with Cass, something will come up somewhere when
> it is not being forced.  Our current situation reminds me of an advertising
> agency with people throwing words into the pot to see which one can be sold.
> Barbara Davoust (née Jachowicz)
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> *  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
> **
> *  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
> *  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
> **
> *  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
> *  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> **
> *  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
> *  and your interest in the group to:
> *      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
> ***************************************************************************
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


------------------------------------------------------------------
Signup online for INSTANT dial-up access at http://isni.net/signup

Yes, it's quite true.  We speak of Poland as "backward"
often by comparing it with the present day.  It was
certainly poorer than the west then, and still is, yet I
remember my relatives years ago, who are now long
deceased, telling us how they still had outside toilets
in their heavily industrialized, Detroit neighborhood
well into the 1930s where they lived and, further that
they were by far, not the only ones lacking modern
facilities !  Contrary to the legend of Henry Ford , most
people in Detroit also did not have cars until after the
Second World War. It was the middle classes that mostly
benefitted from the lower production cost of the assembly
line car in the earlier part of the century.


Cass Glodek

<<<Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:50:37 -0000
    From: "iteekulik" <iteekulik@...>
Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion

Dear all:

On September 7th, I shall be accompanying my 80yr old Uncle to
Gainsborough in Lincolnshire, to attend the above reunion - when the
children of the former settlers come together to reunite, bound
together by their and our common experience.

This is the first time I will have attended (although my uncle has
been on many previous occasions) - if anyone would like further
information, let me know and I'll do my best to find out.


Michael Kulik
England>>>>

Hi Michael,

Not only from Osada Krechowiecka, they have 300 members from many
different osady. Say hi to my Mother from me - she's secretary nowadays
and I helped her with the latest bulletin (if you've read it you'll see
some promotion for this group). Do let us know how the meeting goes.

If anyone is interested in joining the Association please write to:

Association of Families of the Borderland Settlers
Sekretariat Ognisko Rodzin Osadnikow Kresowych
Prezes: Ryszard Grzybowski
Holly Cottage Mews
Hillingdon
Middx UB8 3JS
England

They don't have an application form, you just write to the Prezes giving
him your name, address,
birthdate and the osada you are connected to, etc and your parents names
and birthdates too if
you're the next generation.

Membership costs Ł2.00 plus a voluntary donation towards postage and
admin.

The bulletin comes out twice a year and they have two meetings a year,
plus a big meeting in
Poland every 3-4 years.

Elzunia Olsson
Sweden

Joan,
Thank you for sharing some of Alex's fantastic true-life stories with Anders
Army in Italy from his book-in-progress "Without A Roof = WAR".

I had read in Anders book about how he foresaw that he would get
reinforcements "from the front, not the rear" as Poles in the German Army
came across.

Rita's father must have had a very special experience, though, if he
participated in Operation Barbarossa in 1941-42 (the Nazi eastern front
invasion of the USSR), was captured by the Soviets (not the Poles) as a
German POW, and somehow managed to be freed to join the Polish Anders Army -
presumably while still in the USSR.

I look forward to sharing Rita's discoveries on what exactly happened to
allow this to come to pass.
--
Stefan Wisniowski

> From: "J Eddis" <eddis_top@...>
> After the so-called "amnesty" for Polish prisoners, declared by Stalin,
> many Poles found their way to Anders Army formed in the USSR.
> [...]
> This will give you an idea, Rita, of what happened to some of the Poles
> like your father who were forced to fight in the German army and yet managed
> to cross over, one way or another, to join Anders Army.
> Joan Eddis
> Ottawa, Ontario
>

Please welcome Janine Reardon, another Ordtshoorn chil(and I think our first
member from Alabama).
--
Stefan Wisniowski

----------
From: Janine Reardon <pjreard@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:15:08 -0700 (PDT)
To: Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@...>
Subject: Re: Kresy-Siberia

Hi,

My name is Janine Reardon and I live in Alabama.  My
mother, Janina Moskwa, was deported as a child with
her family from Poland to a forced labor camp in
Siberia.  She was seperated from her family after
their release during their journey to Africa.  Her
name appears on the list of orphans remaining at
Ordtshoorn in 1945.  Only she and her father survived.
  She came to America in 1948.

My mother has talked extensively about her
experiences.  She was however very young at the time.
I would like to know more.  I located the Ordtshoorn
list through the Kresy-Siberia Group archives and was
thrilled to tears to find my mothers name.  I hope
through your list to discover more.

Thank you,

Janine

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

Howdy, Everyone,

I was discussing this very topic w/ Mamusia yesterday. She has very
warm memories of Osada Hallerowo until, of course, the deportations
(at which time she was 12). Dziadzia built the house in which they
lived, and there wasn't electricity or plumbing, so it was difficult,
but only compared to the way that we live now. For them, it was a
home, and a livelihood, and, for the most part, they were content.
Their needs were simpler than ours. Most importantly, they owned and
farmed their own land, a privilege denied to the Polish people for
more than a century prior to the treaty of Versailles. Initially, I
found it hard to reconcile such an idyllic account of life in that
area at that time with Dr. Norman Davies' description, in "God's
Playground", of the political turmoil, and often unstable economic
conditions. But the simplicity, and sufficiency of life for them as
they knew it was all that really mattered to them. I'm sure that
there are many in the hyperactive industrialized countries who now
long for such a peaceful existence. Too bad that it didn't last.

With regard to the land itself, Mamusia mentioned that the area had
been used by the Tsar's army in previous decades as an infantry
training range, and that Dziadzia was always digging up empty shells
while ploughing. Interesting.

Andy Bender
SF Bay area.

--- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., Eve5J@a... wrote:
> Hello Barbara,
>
> I wrote that a happy ending should be included in the film, and
> you are right, not everyone had a happy ending.  I meant finally
> after living as an inmate or prisoner for 2 years and a refugee
> for 10, finally our families got the chance to begin anew in
> another country with some semblance of a "normal" life--to
> have a house or apartment of one's own rather than Quonset
> hut, DP living--this at least was something.  Yes, there were
> successes and there were failures.  Roaming the world for
> 12 years took its toll, I am sure, in one way or another.
>
> You are right also that on the whole, interwar Poland was
> backwards.  Certainly the majority of our families, who chose
> to move to Kresy after World War I, were basically pioneers,
> and the Kresy area was more backwards even than the rest of
> Poland.  Life was rough there at first, but they were happy.
> I can tell this from my grandfather's writings and from my
> father's stories who was 10 when deported.  I imagine that
> Kresy was a spectacular and beautiful place for an inquisitive
> and nature-loving boy to grow up, even without his stories.
>
> Millions of Poles immigrated to other nations throughout time,
> but not our families, who were forcibly removed.  Our families
> chose to stay.  Compared to others they must have had
> something in Poland or they would have immigrated long
> before their 1940 deportation, and we would not be
> discussing these issues now.  Rather than being a first
> generation in a new country, I, and everyone on this list, would
> already be removed from our native land by two, three, or
> even four or more generations.
>
> Pioneers forge a new way of life in untamed land.  Rural, or
> primarily farming, areas throughout the world, even in the
> States and even now, are normally a little backwards at least
> in spots.  I live in New Jersey in a pretty affluent county, and I
> know that there were a few families here that did not have
> indoor plumbing in the 1970s and late 80s!  Unreal, isn't it?
>
> Eve Jesionka Jankowicz
> Family from:  Hallerczyn, Brody, Tarnopol
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>     (Why do people think Poland
> was paradise before WW2? It was very poor -- look at the high
figures for
> economic emigration to the States, France, etc.; there was a
military
> dictatorship, bad anti-semitism, etc, etc) But there must be lots of
> background information available about the deportations, life in
Siberia,
> the armies and the eventual dispersal to all parts of the world. I
am
> afraid too that I don't agree with a "happy ending" -- after seeing
in the
> mails of this group about how parents or relatives have had a hard
time
> coming to terms with their lives, even after so many years. So a
more
> ambiguous ending would be more suitable.
> Perhaps indeed out of a film, a general word to describe the
experience
> might turn up. But I agree with Cass, something will come up
somewhere when
> it is not being forced. Our current situation reminds me of an
advertising
> agency with people throwing words into the pot to see which one can
be sold.
> Barbara Davoust (née Jachowicz)

From: Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...>
Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:57:56 +0200
To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion

<<<Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:50:37 -0000
  From: "iteekulik" <iteekulik@...>
Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion

Dear all:

On September 7th, I shall be accompanying my 80yr old Uncle to
Gainsborough in Lincolnshire, to attend the above reunion - when the
children of the former settlers come together to reunite, bound
together by their and our common experience.

This is the first time I will have attended (although my uncle has
been on many previous occasions) - if anyone would like further
information, let me know and I'll do my best to find out.


Michael Kulik
England>>>>

Hi Michael,

Not only from Osada Krechowiecka, they have 300 members from many
different osady. Say hi to my Mother from me - she's secretary nowadays
and I helped her with the latest bulletin (if you've read it you'll see
some promotion for this group). Do let us know how the meeting goes.

If anyone is interested in joining the Association please write to:

Association of Families of the Borderland Settlers
Sekretariat Ognisko Rodzin Osadnikow Kresowych
Prezes: Ryszard Grzybowski
Holly Cottage Mews
Hillingdon
Middx UB8 3JS
England

They don't have an application form, you just write to the Prezes giving
him your name, address,
birthdate and the osada you are connected to, etc and your parents names
and birthdates too if
you're the next generation.

Membership costs Ł2.00 plus a voluntary donation towards postage and
admin.

The bulletin comes out twice a year and they have two meetings a year,
plus a big meeting in
Poland every 3-4 years.

Elzunia Olsson
Sweden





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

***************************************************************************
*  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
**
*  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
*  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
**
*  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
*  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
**
*  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
*  and your interest in the group to:
*      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
***************************************************************************

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Very nicely and truthfully written. Some other people tried to compare pre war
economic situation to present day United States. Only where did you get the
idea that during the Poland's partition Poles couldn't own and farm the land ?
there were building restrictions in Prussia and there was famous Woz (Wagon)
Drzymaly. Also after uprising of 1863 there was land confiscated  from the
"powstancy", or they got such high taxes, that the land was confiscated for
unpaid taxes. However this method was used  when dealing with big land owners.

Stanislaw Szybalski

jazzbaritone wrote:

> Howdy, Everyone,
>
> I was discussing this very topic w/ Mamusia yesterday. She has very
> warm memories of Osada Hallerowo until, of course, the deportations
> (at which time she was 12). Dziadzia built the house in which they
> lived, and there wasn't electricity or plumbing, so it was difficult,
> but only compared to the way that we live now. For them, it was a
> home, and a livelihood, and, for the most part, they were content.
> Their needs were simpler than ours. Most importantly, they owned and
> farmed their own land, a privilege denied to the Polish people for
> more than a century prior to the treaty of Versailles. Initially, I
> found it hard to reconcile such an idyllic account of life in that
> area at that time with Dr. Norman Davies' description, in "God's
> Playground", of the political turmoil, and often unstable economic
> conditions. But the simplicity, and sufficiency of life for them as
> they knew it was all that really mattered to them. I'm sure that
> there are many in the hyperactive industrialized countries who now
> long for such a peaceful existence. Too bad that it didn't last.
>
> With regard to the land itself, Mamusia mentioned that the area had
> been used by the Tsar's army in previous decades as an infantry
> training range, and that Dziadzia was always digging up empty shells
> while ploughing. Interesting.
>
> Andy Bender
> SF Bay area.
>
> --- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., Eve5J@a... wrote:
> > Hello Barbara,
> >
> > I wrote that a happy ending should be included in the film, and
> > you are right, not everyone had a happy ending.  I meant finally
> > after living as an inmate or prisoner for 2 years and a refugee
> > for 10, finally our families got the chance to begin anew in
> > another country with some semblance of a "normal" life--to
> > have a house or apartment of one's own rather than Quonset
> > hut, DP living--this at least was something.  Yes, there were
> > successes and there were failures.  Roaming the world for
> > 12 years took its toll, I am sure, in one way or another.
> >
> > You are right also that on the whole, interwar Poland was
> > backwards.  Certainly the majority of our families, who chose
> > to move to Kresy after World War I, were basically pioneers,
> > and the Kresy area was more backwards even than the rest of
> > Poland.  Life was rough there at first, but they were happy.
> > I can tell this from my grandfather's writings and from my
> > father's stories who was 10 when deported.  I imagine that
> > Kresy was a spectacular and beautiful place for an inquisitive
> > and nature-loving boy to grow up, even without his stories.
> >
> > Millions of Poles immigrated to other nations throughout time,
> > but not our families, who were forcibly removed.  Our families
> > chose to stay.  Compared to others they must have had
> > something in Poland or they would have immigrated long
> > before their 1940 deportation, and we would not be
> > discussing these issues now.  Rather than being a first
> > generation in a new country, I, and everyone on this list, would
> > already be removed from our native land by two, three, or
> > even four or more generations.
> >
> > Pioneers forge a new way of life in untamed land.  Rural, or
> > primarily farming, areas throughout the world, even in the
> > States and even now, are normally a little backwards at least
> > in spots.  I live in New Jersey in a pretty affluent county, and I
> > know that there were a few families here that did not have
> > indoor plumbing in the 1970s and late 80s!  Unreal, isn't it?
> >
> > Eve Jesionka Jankowicz
> > Family from:  Hallerczyn, Brody, Tarnopol
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >     (Why do people think Poland
> > was paradise before WW2? It was very poor -- look at the high
> figures for
> > economic emigration to the States, France, etc.; there was a
> military
> > dictatorship, bad anti-semitism, etc, etc) But there must be lots of
> > background information available about the deportations, life in
> Siberia,
> > the armies and the eventual dispersal to all parts of the world. I
> am
> > afraid too that I don't agree with a "happy ending" -- after seeing
> in the
> > mails of this group about how parents or relatives have had a hard
> time
> > coming to terms with their lives, even after so many years. So a
> more
> > ambiguous ending would be more suitable.
> > Perhaps indeed out of a film, a general word to describe the
> experience
> > might turn up. But I agree with Cass, something will come up
> somewhere when
> > it is not being forced. Our current situation reminds me of an
> advertising
> > agency with people throwing words into the pot to see which one can
> be sold.
> > Barbara Davoust (née Jachowicz)
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> *  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
> **
> *  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
> *  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
> **
> *  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
> *  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> **
> *  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
> *  and your interest in the group to:
> *      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
> ***************************************************************************
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


------------------------------------------------------------------
Signup online for INSTANT dial-up access at http://isni.net/signup

I am not disputing that some people lived well in pre-war Poland.  Listening
to my mother talk about her childhood in the Kresy when I was young, I
thought it sounded just wonderful.  Her family was well off and she and her
brother could go away to school in Wilno (which is why I wanted to go there
to have a look).  It is indeed when I started studying history and reading
that I realized that all was not well.  I was not comparing pre-war Poland
with contemporary America.
Furthermore, I thnk when someone lives somewhere -- as Mr Szybalski's claim
to expertise on pre-war Poland seems to be based -- they necessarily have a
more restricted view on what goes on than when the place is looked at with a
bit longer perspective and from the outside.  Many things that are going on
right now in life around us will only become clear in a larger picture with
time.
I am glad that our various parents and relatives did indeed have happy
childhoods before the suffering that they went through afterwards.

Barbara Davoust

--- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., S & J Szybalski <julsta@i...> wrote:
> Very nicely and truthfully written. Some other people tried to
compare pre war
> economic situation to present day United States. Only where did you
get the
> idea that during the Poland's partition Poles couldn't own and farm
the land ?
> there were building restrictions in Prussia and there was famous
Woz (Wagon)
> Drzymaly. Also after uprising of 1863 there was land confiscated
from the
> "powstancy", or they got such high taxes, that the land was
confiscated for
> unpaid taxes. However this method was used  when dealing with big
land owners.
>
> Stanislaw Szybalski
>
> jazzbaritone wrote:
>
> > Howdy, Everyone,
> >
> > I was discussing this very topic w/ Mamusia yesterday. She has
very
> > warm memories of Osada Hallerowo until, of course, the
deportations
> > (at which time she was 12). Dziadzia built the house in which they
> > lived, and there wasn't electricity or plumbing, so it was
difficult,
> > but only compared to the way that we live now. For them, it was a
> > home, and a livelihood, and, for the most part, they were content.
> > Their needs were simpler than ours. Most importantly, they owned
and
> > farmed their own land, a privilege denied to the Polish people for
> > more than a century prior to the treaty of Versailles. Initially,
I
> > found it hard to reconcile such an idyllic account of life in that
> > area at that time with Dr. Norman Davies' description, in "God's
> > Playground", of the political turmoil, and often unstable economic
> > conditions. But the simplicity, and sufficiency of life for them
as
> > they knew it was all that really mattered to them. I'm sure that
> > there are many in the hyperactive industrialized countries who now
> > long for such a peaceful existence. Too bad that it didn't last.
> >
> > With regard to the land itself, Mamusia mentioned that the area
had
> > been used by the Tsar's army in previous decades as an infantry
> > training range, and that Dziadzia was always digging up empty
shells
> > while ploughing. Interesting.
> >
> > Andy Bender
> > SF Bay area.
> >
> > --- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., Eve5J@a... wrote:
> > > Hello Barbara,
> > >
> > > I wrote that a happy ending should be included in the film, and
> > > you are right, not everyone had a happy ending.  I meant finally
> > > after living as an inmate or prisoner for 2 years and a refugee
> > > for 10, finally our families got the chance to begin anew in
> > > another country with some semblance of a "normal" life--to
> > > have a house or apartment of one's own rather than Quonset
> > > hut, DP living--this at least was something.  Yes, there were
> > > successes and there were failures.  Roaming the world for
> > > 12 years took its toll, I am sure, in one way or another.
> > >
> > > You are right also that on the whole, interwar Poland was
> > > backwards.  Certainly the majority of our families, who chose
> > > to move to Kresy after World War I, were basically pioneers,
> > > and the Kresy area was more backwards even than the rest of
> > > Poland.  Life was rough there at first, but they were happy.
> > > I can tell this from my grandfather's writings and from my
> > > father's stories who was 10 when deported.  I imagine that
> > > Kresy was a spectacular and beautiful place for an inquisitive
> > > and nature-loving boy to grow up, even without his stories.
> > >
> > > Millions of Poles immigrated to other nations throughout time,
> > > but not our families, who were forcibly removed.  Our families
> > > chose to stay.  Compared to others they must have had
> > > something in Poland or they would have immigrated long
> > > before their 1940 deportation, and we would not be
> > > discussing these issues now.  Rather than being a first
> > > generation in a new country, I, and everyone on this list, would
> > > already be removed from our native land by two, three, or
> > > even four or more generations.
> > >
> > > Pioneers forge a new way of life in untamed land.  Rural, or
> > > primarily farming, areas throughout the world, even in the
> > > States and even now, are normally a little backwards at least
> > > in spots.  I live in New Jersey in a pretty affluent county,
and I
> > > know that there were a few families here that did not have
> > > indoor plumbing in the 1970s and late 80s!  Unreal, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Eve Jesionka Jankowicz
> > > Family from:  Hallerczyn, Brody, Tarnopol
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >     (Why do people think Poland
> > > was paradise before WW2? It was very poor -- look at the high
> > figures for
> > > economic emigration to the States, France, etc.; there was a
> > military
> > > dictatorship, bad anti-semitism, etc, etc) But there must be
lots of
> > > background information available about the deportations, life in
> > Siberia,
> > > the armies and the eventual dispersal to all parts of the
world. I
> > am
> > > afraid too that I don't agree with a "happy ending" -- after
seeing
> > in the
> > > mails of this group about how parents or relatives have had a
hard
> > time
> > > coming to terms with their lives, even after so many years. So a
> > more
> > > ambiguous ending would be more suitable.
> > > Perhaps indeed out of a film, a general word to describe the
> > experience
> > > might turn up. But I agree with Cass, something will come up
> > somewhere when
> > > it is not being forced. Our current situation reminds me of an
> > advertising
> > > agency with people throwing words into the pot to see which one
can
> > be sold.
> > > Barbara Davoust (née Jachowicz)
> >
> >
> >
**********************************************************************
*****
> > *  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
> > **
> > *  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
> > *  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
> > **
> > *  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
> > *  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@y...
> > **
> > *  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
> > *  and your interest in the group to:
> > *      Kresy-Siberia-owner@y...
> >
**********************************************************************
*****
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Signup online for INSTANT dial-up access at http://isni.net/signup

Hi. I am a relatively new member and except for my introduction a
couple of weeks ago, I haven't said anything.  But I am reading all
of your entries. I just wanted to comment on life in Poland before
WWII.  I wasn't there, but my father was, from 1926 until 1940 when
he was deported to Siberia along with his parents and siblings. My
father was born in America in 1913.  When he was 13 years old, his
parents moved back to Poland, to Nowe Miasto, Przemysl, to be exact.
They bought land for a farm.  My father passed away in 1989, but even
though he was born in America and ended up back here in the early
50's, all he ever talked about was Poland and how he loved it there,
how beautiful it was and how wonderful the Polish people were. My
grandparents left America in 1926 to go back to the country they
loved when it seemed peaceful a few years after WWI. The kind of
happiness they experienced there was not one of material things, but
of nature, family and friends, the important stuff. This is what was
taken away from the Polish by the Soviets, their happy family life.
Yes, they worked very hard and they had some problems with some other
groups of people, but they had each other and their beautiful
surroundings. Like many of your relatives, my grandparents did not
survive Siberia.  My grandfather died there in 1943 and my
grandmother in 1944. I am presently writing to my uncles, my father's
younger brothers, who became orphans after their parents died, to
learn more about their lives. They both still live in Poland. This
group is helping me a great deal in putting the pieces of my history
together. I welcome any of your suggestions.  Please feel free to
email me at any time. Thank you.

Barbara Soja Revoet - amkar@...

Stefan
       I'm going to try and attend this event, and report back
to the group.

I wonder if we can get the "Dziennik Polski" involved in this,
e.g in assisting in collecting and collating material as part
of establishing a virtual museum in the UK...

I'll get back to the list on this.

George




>
> > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
> --MS_Mac_OE_3111656252_675153_MIME_Part
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Thank you Elizabeth,
>
> I have just sent my application in.
>
> Mike, I wish I could be there!
>
> Will you be able to prepare a little report for the group, and maybe take
> pictures?  in order to function in the modern world, they really should get
> somebody onto the internet and get their web-page presence up.
>
> So can you please represent the Kresy-Siberia Group there, and invite peopl=
> e
> with internet access and their younger descendants to visit the site and
> join the group?  We should have a lot more members from the UK (and word is
> spreading but slowly).
>
> Jagna, I assume that you know about this and will be represented as far as
> "A Forgotten Odyssey" distribution.
>
> George, how can we tap into this group regarding our virtual museum project=
> ?
>
> Henry Sokolowski from Canada might want you to somehow publicise his
> testimony project.  Perhaps even passing out enquiry forms of some kind?
> (Henry over to you!)
> --=20
> Stefan
>
> From: Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...>
> Reply-To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:57:56 +0200
> To: Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Kresy-Siberia] Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion
>
> <<<Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:50:37 -0000
>   From: "iteekulik" <iteekulik@...>
> Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion
>
> Dear all:
>
> On September 7th, I shall be accompanying my 80yr old Uncle to
> Gainsborough in Lincolnshire, to attend the above reunion - when the
> children of the former settlers come together to reunite, bound
> together by their and our common experience.
>
> This is the first time I will have attended (although my uncle has
> been on many previous occasions) - if anyone would like further
> information, let me know and I'll do my best to find out.
>
>
> Michael Kulik
> England>>>>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Not only from Osada Krechowiecka, they have 300 members from many
> different osady. Say hi to my Mother from me - she's secretary nowadays
> and I helped her with the latest bulletin (if you've read it you'll see
> some promotion for this group). Do let us know how the meeting goes.
>
> If anyone is interested in joining the Association please write to:
>
> Association of Families of the Borderland Settlers
> Sekretariat Ognisko Rodzin Osadnikow Kresowych
> Prezes: Ryszard Grzybowski
> Holly Cottage Mews
> Hillingdon
> Middx UB8 3JS
> England
>
> They don't have an application form, you just write to the Prezes giving
> him your name, address,
> birthdate and the osada you are connected to, etc and your parents names
> and birthdates too if
> you're the next generation.
>
> Membership costs =A32.00 plus a voluntary donation towards postage and
> admin.
>
> The bulletin comes out twice a year and they have two meetings a year,
> plus a big meeting in
> Poland every 3-4 years.
>
> Elzunia Olsson
> Sweden
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> ***************************************************************************
> *=A0 KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP =3D Research, Remembrance, Recognition
> **
> *=A0 Discussion site:=A0 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
> *=A0 Film and info=A0 :=A0 http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
> **
> *=A0 Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
> *=A0 Send e-mails to:=A0 Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> **
> *=A0 To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
> *=A0 and your interest in the group to:
> *      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
> ***************************************************************************
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
> --MS_Mac_OE_3111656252_675153_MIME_Part
> Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>Re: [Kresy-Siberia] Subject: Osada Reunion</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> Thank you Elizabeth,<BR>
> <BR>
> I have just sent my application in.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mike, I wish I could be there!<BR>
> <BR>
> Will you be able to prepare a little report for the group, and maybe take p=
> ictures?  in order to function in the modern world, they really should =
> get somebody onto the internet and get their web-page presence up.<BR>
> <BR>
> So can you please represent the Kresy-Siberia Group there, and invite peopl=
> e with internet access and their younger descendants to visit the site and j=
> oin the group?  We should have a lot more members from the UK (and word=
>  is spreading but slowly).<BR>
> <BR>
> Jagna, I assume that you know about this and will be represented as far as =
> "A Forgotten Odyssey" distribution.<BR>
> <BR>
> George, how can we tap into this group regarding our virtual museum project=
> ?<BR>
> <BR>
> Henry Sokolowski from Canada might want you to somehow publicise his testim=
> ony project.  Perhaps even passing out enquiry forms of some kind? &nbs=
> p;(Henry over to you!)<BR>
> -- <BR>
> Stefan<BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> <B>From: </B>Elizabeth Olsson <elzunia@...><BR>
> <B>Reply-To: </B>Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> <B>Date: </B>Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:57:56 +0200<BR>
> <B>To: </B>Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> <B>Subject: </B>[Kresy-Siberia] Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion<BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE><<<Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:50:37 -0000<BR>
>    From: "iteekulik" <iteekulik@...><BR>
> Subject: Osada Krechowiecka Reunion<BR>
> <BR>
> Dear all:<BR>
> <BR>
> On September 7th, I shall be accompanying my 80yr old Uncle to<BR>
> Gainsborough in Lincolnshire, to attend the above reunion - when the<BR>
> children of the former settlers come together to reunite, bound<BR>
> together by their and our common experience.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is the first time I will have attended (although my uncle has<BR>
> been on many previous occasions) - if anyone would like further<BR>
> information, let me know and I'll do my best to find out.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Michael Kulik<BR>
> England>>>><BR>
> <BR>
> Hi Michael,<BR>
> <BR>
> Not only from Osada Krechowiecka, they have 300 members from many<BR>
> different osady. Say hi to my Mother from me - she's secretary nowadays<BR>
> and I helped her with the latest bulletin (if you've read it you'll see<BR>
> some promotion for this group). Do let us know how the meeting goes.<BR>
> <BR>
> If anyone is interested in joining the Association please write to:<BR>
> <BR>
> Association of Families of the Borderland Settlers<BR>
> Sekretariat Ognisko Rodzin Osadnikow Kresowych<BR>
> Prezes: Ryszard Grzybowski<BR>
> Holly Cottage Mews<BR>
> Hillingdon<BR>
> Middx UB8 3JS<BR>
> England<BR>
> <BR>
> They don't have an application form, you just write to the Prezes giving<BR=
> >
> him your name, address,<BR>
> birthdate and the osada you are connected to, etc and your parents names<BR=
> >
> and birthdates too if<BR>
> you're the next generation.<BR>
> <BR>
> Membership costs =A32.00 plus a voluntary donation towards postage and<BR>
> admin.<BR>
> <BR>
> The bulletin comes out twice a year and they have two meetings a year,<BR>
> plus a big meeting in<BR>
> Poland every 3-4 years.<BR>
> <BR>
> Elzunia Olsson<BR>
> Sweden<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <FONT COLOR=3D"#003399"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><B>Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor</B></FONT></F=
> ONT> <FONT SIZE=3D"1">ADVERTISEMENT<BR>
> </FONT><BR>
> ***************************************************************************=
> <BR>
> *=A0 KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP =3D Research, Remembrance, Recognition<BR>
> **<BR>
> *=A0 Discussion site:=A0 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia<BR>
> *=A0 Film and info=A0 :=A0 http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com<BR>
> **<BR>
> *=A0 Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.<BR>
> *=A0 Send e-mails to:=A0 Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> **<BR>
> *=A0 To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are<BR>
> *=A0 and your interest in the group to:<BR>
> *      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com<BR>
> ***************************************************************************=
>  <BR>
> <BR>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <htt=
> p://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . <BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
>
>
> --MS_Mac_OE_3111656252_675153_MIME_Part--
>
>


--
George Neisser BSc, PhD           Email: George.Neisser@...
Manchester Computing              Tel:   +44 (0) 161 275 6008
University of Manchester          Fax:   +44 (0) 161 275 6040
Manchester UK M13 9PL

I think Andy Bender may be expressing what is a more
widespread undercurrent of a sense of wrong that was
certainly transmitted to the children of the Polish
underclasses than is presumed by descendants of more
privileged Polish background. I, and most people of
Polish descent, and especially from the older US
immigration, come from this class of people.
Just a few points in this regard.  It was not the Polish
nobles nor the bourgeois who freed the Polish peasant
from the land and his master, but the Russian tsar only
as recently as 1855.  In fact the Polish upper classes
opposed this radical step for the most part ( the Polish
Constitution of the 3rd of May toward the end of the
previous century did not do much for the great mass of
people tied to the land either, in spite of its serving
as a reference point for instilling patriotic motives )
Also there persists a continual resentment that  is not
always communicated with absolute clarity but which is
ingrained quite deeply in the minds of many descendants
of Polish immigrants in the west...  It is that the Polish
ruling classes were somehow more directly responsible
than they have admitted in the long view, for the plight of
our families because they "partied and loosened their belt"
and exploited their positions of power in pure self
aggrandizement rather then wisely ruling for the common
good and protecting
the people.  If  you really gain the confidence of the
by now several generations removed descendants of Polish
immigrants, you will find they remember these stories of
aristocratic laxity, of their
injustice and violence perpetrated on the Polish
peasants.  Just one small but telling
example.  A Polish girl raped by an aristocrat risked
very real death if it became public.  Her parents and
family were totally  helpless. Such and similar family
stories have been passed on from generation to generation.

What is sometimes expressed in this respect may be only
partially the truth but it clearly to my mind represents
that other strong undercurrent of feeling about Poland
that has been instilled through their forebearers in many
people of Polish descent. The sad fact is that this
festering sense of wrong is not only not recognized but
very often attacked with the same insensitivity and
callouseness of the discredited presumptions of the old
Polish privileged class.    Cass Glodek

My private reply is in the mail.

Stanislaw Szybalski

b.davoust wrote:

> I am not disputing that some people lived well in pre-war Poland.  Listening
> to my mother talk about her childhood in the Kresy when I was young, I
> thought it sounded just wonderful.  Her family was well off and she and her
> brother could go away to school in Wilno (which is why I wanted to go there
> to have a look).  It is indeed when I started studying history and reading
> that I realized that all was not well.  I was not comparing pre-war Poland
> with contemporary America.
> Furthermore, I thnk when someone lives somewhere -- as Mr Szybalski's claim
> to expertise on pre-war Poland seems to be based -- they necessarily have a
> more restricted view on what goes on than when the place is looked at with a
> bit longer perspective and from the outside.  Many things that are going on
> right now in life around us will only become clear in a larger picture with
> time.
> I am glad that our various parents and relatives did indeed have happy
> childhoods before the suffering that they went through afterwards.
>
> Barbara Davoust
>
>
> ***************************************************************************
> *  KRESY-SIBERIA GROUP = Research, Remembrance, Recognition
> **
> *  Discussion site:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kresy-Siberia
> *  Film and info  :  http://www.AForgottenOdyssey.com
> **
> *  Replies to this message will go directly to the full list.
> *  Send e-mails to:  Kresy-Siberia@yahoogroups.com
> **
> *  To SUBSCRIBE, send an e-mail saying who you are
> *  and your interest in the group to:
> *      Kresy-Siberia-owner@yahoogroups.com
> ***************************************************************************
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




------------------------------------------------------------------
Signup online for INSTANT dial-up access at http://isni.net/signup

Please welcome Norbert Wojciechowski, based in Poland, to the group.
Norbert has published several books in Polish on the deportation experience
(see www.norbertinum.com.pl)

Though the attached letter is in Polish, he has offered to translate it for
us.
--
Stefan Wisniowski

----------
From: "Wydawnictwo Norbertinum" <norbertinum@...>

Dear Sir,

The reply for your letter is in the attached file. The letter is in Polish,
please let me know if you have any problems with translating. I will write
it in English.
Yours sincerely,

Norbert Wojciechowski
>
> Szanowny Panie,
>
> Odpowiadam w j_zyku polskim. “Norbertinum" publikuje dwie serie wydawnicze
> po_wi_cone tematyce deportacji Polaków w g__b Rosji:
> 1. “Duchowie_stwo polskie w wi_zieniach, _agrach i na zes_aniu w ZSRR"
> 2. “Z nieludzkiej ziemi"
>
> ad 1.
> A) Ks. Tadeusz Fedorowicz, Drogi Opatrzno_ci
> B) Ks. Stanis_aw Ry_ko, Trzeba zosta_
> C) Hilary Wilk OFMCap, Ty nie zginiesz
> D) Wac_aw S_k SJ, Proboszcz z gor_cego pogranicza
> Te ksi__ki “reklamuje" sam Ojciec _wi_ty Jan Pawe_ II, który je czyta,
> wypowiada_ si_ na temat jednej z nich dwukrotnie, a nawet jedn_ mia_ z sob_ w
> podró_y apostolskiej do Kazachstanu.
>
> ad 2. Dotychczas ukaza_y si_ 4 tomy
> a) Gra_yna Jonkajtys-Luba, ...was na to zdies priwiezli sztob wy podochli
> b) Kazimierz Cybulski, Przerwany bieg _ycia. Syberyjskie wspomnienia
> nastolatka
> c) Stefan Waydenfeld, Droga lodowa
> d) Szczepan Wies_aw Nalepi_ski, Syberyjski szlak
>
>
> Po przeczytaniu w “Nowym Dzienniku" (1-2 czerwca 2002) rozmowy przeprowadzonej
> z Jagn_ Wright i Anet_ Naszy_sk_ pt. “Zapomniana odyseja" uzna_em, _e
> powinienem poinformowa_ uczestników dyskusji internetowej “Kresy ­ Siberia
> Group" o naszych ksi__kach.
> Zainteresowanym mo_emy wysy_a_ foldery i katalogi o tych tytu_ach, a nawet
> realizowa_ zamówienia na ksi__ki.
> Na naszej witrynie internetowej www.norbertinum.com.pl mo_na zapozna_ si_ z
> tymi i innymi ksi__kami Wydawnictwa “Norbertinum", a tak_e sk_ada_ zamówienia
> poczt_ elektroniczn_.

Please welcome Alex Santocki to the group!  Alex there is lots of
information on the websites, and I look forward to your participation.
--
Stefan Wisniowski

----------
From: Alex Santocki <alexsantocki@...>

Both of my parents were born in Eastern Poland before the outbreak of World
War Two.  My father's family came from North East Poland, around the towns
of Grodno and Lida.  They were deported to Kazakhstan in 1940, and then
travelled to Persia and Uganda and arrived in England in 1948.  My mother's
family came from South East Poland, around the towns of Tarnopol, Buczacz
and Monasterzyska.  They were deported in the first instance to the Ural
mountains, and then on to Uzbekistan, and then via Persia to Northern
Rhodesia which is now Zambia.  They also arrived in England in 1948.

My father's name is Janusz Santocki and my mother's maiden name is Barbara
Zofia Turczanska.  They met in London and married in 1961, and they now live
in Birmingham in England, which is where I grew up.  I was born in 1964 in
Gravesend, near London.  My full name is Aleksander Jozef Kazimierz
Santocki.  I have a younger brother called Henryk Jan Santocki who was born
in Birmingham in 1971.

I have always had a great interest in family history and the events of World
War Two, and would like to find out some more about what really happened to
the Polish peoples who came under the occupation of the former Soviet Union
in 1939.

I hope that is sufficient detail for the time being.

I look forward to hearing from you.

With best wishes,

Alex

Welcome Norbert!
Will you please translate your attachment to English?
There are many on the list that are not fluent in Polish,
including me.

Thank you,
Eve Jankowicz

--- In Kresy-Siberia@y..., Stefan Wisniowski <swisniowski@p...> wrote:
> Please welcome Norbert Wojciechowski, based in Poland, to the group.
> Norbert has published several books in Polish on the deportation
experience
> (see www.norbertinum.com.pl)
>
> Though the attached letter is in Polish, he has offered to
translate it for
> us.
> --
> Stefan Wisniowski
>
> ----------
> From: "Wydawnictwo Norbertinum" <norbertinum@n...>
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> The reply for your letter is in the attached file. The letter is in
Polish,
> please let me know if you have any problems with translating. I
will write
> it in English.
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Norbert Wojciechowski
> >
> > Szanowny Panie,
> >
> > Odpowiadam w j_zyku polskim. "Norbertinum" publikuje dwie
serie
wydawnicze
> > po_wi_cone tematyce deportacji Polaków w g__b Rosji:
> > 1. "Duchowie_stwo polskie w wi_zieniach, _agrach i na
zes_aniu w
ZSRR"
> > 2. "Z nieludzkiej ziemi"
> >
> > ad 1.
> > A) Ks. Tadeusz Fedorowicz, Drogi Opatrzno_ci
> > B) Ks. Stanis_aw Ry_ko, Trzeba zosta_
> > C) Hilary Wilk OFMCap, Ty nie zginiesz
> > D) Wac_aw S_k SJ, Proboszcz z gor_cego pogranicza
> > Te ksi__ki "reklamuje" sam Ojciec _wi_ty Jan Pawe_ II,
który je
czyta,
> > wypowiada_ si_ na temat jednej z nich dwukrotnie, a nawet jedn_
mia_ z sob_ w
> > podró_y apostolskiej do Kazachstanu.
> >
> > ad 2. Dotychczas ukaza_y si_ 4 tomy
> > a) Gra_yna Jonkajtys-Luba, ...was na to zdies priwiezli sztob wy
podochli
> > b) Kazimierz Cybulski, Przerwany bieg _ycia. Syberyjskie
wspomnienia
> > nastolatka
> > c) Stefan Waydenfeld, Droga lodowa
> > d) Szczepan Wies_aw Nalepi_ski, Syberyjski szlak
> >
> >
> > Po przeczytaniu w "Nowym Dzienniku" (1-2 czerwca 2002)
rozmowy
przeprowadzonej
> > z Jagn_ Wright i Anet_ Naszy_sk_ pt. "Zapomniana odyseja"
uzna_em, _e
> > powinienem poinformowa_ uczestników dyskusji internetowej
"Kresy ­
Siberia
> > Group" o naszych ksi__kach.
> > Zainteresowanym mo_emy wysy_a_ foldery i katalogi o tych
tytu_ach, a nawet
> > realizowa_ zamówienia na ksi__ki.
> > Na naszej witrynie internetowej www.norbertinum.com.pl mo_na
zapozna_ si_ z
> > tymi i innymi ksi__kami Wydawnictwa "Norbertinum", a tak_e
sk_ada_ zamówienia
> > poczt_ elektroniczn_.