On Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:07:35 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>There is a line in MANY COLOURED LAND which sums it up
>pretty well. Mercy is talking about the reasons she is
>going into Exile. She says (and I can't quote it 100%)
>'I found a little solace in music, in the pageants, in
>drugs....but essentially I was a bit of non-viable
>scum on the vaunted human gene pool.' And I think a
>lot of people feel like this, not just in the Milieu
>but also in real life.

Yes. Imagine how upsetting it would be to find that Mark (or his like)
were the reason for it all...
>It is the old existentialist way of thinking
>really...what is the purpose in my life, why am I
>here.  Some people find ways to reassure themselves
>that they have a raison d'etre, such as religion, or
>destiny or whatever. In the milieu it became Unity.
>But some people are never going to be able to provide
>themselves with a completely adequate reason for
>living. So living itself is not really sufficient
>reason for life. These people, like Mercy, can find
>'solace' - mainly through addiction (harmful or
>non-harmful. eg, and obsession with music is usually
>positive not negative, as is an addiction to one's
>work). The happiness and contentment derived from the
>different varieties of solace we take is enough to
>alleviate the emptiness and despair felt by someone
>who doesn't truly feel like they have a reason for
>living. Thus, they won't commit suicide. But when an
>opportunity like Exile presents itself they see this
>as a way to provide themself with a reason for living,
>or perhaps a way to avoid needing a reason for living
>(e.g. if you are living six million years in the past,
>do you really need a reason to live??? You can have
>more fun that way).
>Others, such as Aiken, are probably completely
>ignorant  of this turmoil that disturbs many humans.
>He sees no impediment to the fun and risk that makes
>his life worth living (even the law). He is much
>better suited to a less structured society where his
>willfulness, trickiness and skill are appreciated.
>The others find happiness in the Tanu way of life
>because it allows them to exercise qualities
>unnecessary in the modern world e.g. romanticism,
>chivalry, bloodthirstiness.
>
>
>What is the answer to that mystery? I was sure that
>the Great Carbuncle was Felice and Cul, I thought Marc
>took the ruby because no one else in Exile could
>handle it.
Well, as I understand it the Carbuncle is a miniature of the
amplification device built by Jack and Diamond Mask for the final
confrontation. If you recall Denis looked into it and it was,
ultimately, the reason he tried crazy Rogi's idea and started the
intervention.

If you read the descriptions of the artifacts I think you will find
that they are different geometric shapes....


>Even if it does say somewhere that the ruby
>was still buried under a mountain, I think AU would
>have been able to dig it up, and perhaps reshape it to
>harness it's powers. It is just too coincidental that
>a strange ruby in Au and then Rogi's possession should
>come to play a part in so many events in the series.

As Chesterton says "Coincidences are spiritual puns"...

I had much the same idea on the things myself...

>But there are tons of coincidences of course.
>What were you saying about Dougal, Ian? Why did you
>think his presence strange, almost diabolical - as far
>as I could see he didn't do much except cry out about
>the 'faery iron'.
his guys shows up, play the part of a shambolic imbecile and
facilitates much of the major movement of the piece.

He is at the iron forge and basicly saves Tony (who opens the time
gate in the other direction).

He is Epone's choice as love toy as soon as he arrives and, whilst
appearing normal, is not turned into cannon fodder.

If you look at any part of the books where he appears there is
something momentous in the air...

Not unlike Rogi in many respects. Just there altering certain apects
of situations to facilitate the desired outcome...

... He strikes me in much the same way as you suggest of the
carbuncle/felice-cull gem.

Again Moot stuff.

regards,
Ian

Hi Leticia,

>Same. But all mythology interests me - I'm actually
>going to start a mythology category on Triviawars on
>day! I've already got the application but haven't been
>bothered sending it in.

I like mythology too, and it was interesting seeing how Julian compared some
of her characters to figures from Greek legend e.g. Aiken=Hermes/Trickster,
Elizabeth=Athena, Marc=Prometheus and then there's Fury and the Hydra(s) of
course [shudder].

In regards to Mercy, in a guest editorial of an old issue of 'Marion Zimmer
Bradley's Fantasy Magazine' Julian said that she "is the embodiment of the
Devouring Female, the Belle Dame Sans Merci. (Strangely enough, this
character is based upon an actual woman I knew. She was quite frightening)"

I empathised with Mercy's discontent with the 'modern' world re her feeling
that she would rather be in 16th century France. I used to belong to the SCA
(Silly Costume Association ;-) ) and my everyday clothes lean towards
medieval myself (no whalebone corsets though, I don't take it that far!
<g>). Anyway, Mercy and Aiken were perfectly suited for Exile, as you said
(and a RPG would be great). I was curious too as to how Mercy had those Tanu
genes - it brings up the question of whether there were any hidden pockets
of Tanu still around...

Alot of SFF people like this series because it offers an escape back to a
'simpler time' and it's interesting to note that some of the Exiles
themselves like SFF - someone in 'Golden Torc' stuck in a dungeon (forget
who) says they should write a rescue-me message saying that they are stuck
in Middle Earth, and there was a minor character in 'Adversary' who helped
build the tug-of-war device in the Grand Tourney who said he'd worked in
Industrial Light and Magic (I was rolling on the floor with that one!).

Anyway, in regards to Aiken, I was intrigued too as to how Dougal knew about
his ancestry - perhaps a combination of his torc (he did wear one, didn't
he?) and his craziness brought up a type of prolepsis. So it seems Aiken
is/was one of the first Scots. LOL when Dougal mistook Aiken for Aslan from
the Narnia series. Mind you, Liz jokingly referred to herself as the Ice
Queen...

Speaking of Liz, you might find the following poem by Julian from the
'Pliocene Companion' interesting. - Nicolette :-)

M. to E. On Departure

So here before we leave I give you
This second little twist of gold,
Lately pain-giving, freed now from fire
As you, my love. The gold will bind you fast
If you accept it, as mine bound me to you
At our first work's completion.
I was too distracted then
By that child that was our first born, by our consonance,
To see my own dream ending; nor did I know
What fateful impulse made me clasp
The dead gold like a gyve about my wrist
Before I left you. But it burned.
It bound me to you - to all of them so bound us both -
That you cannot refuse me, and them. So yield.
Accept the second golden bracelet. Trust.
See, now a chain connects us
And the mated galaxies
Not in a catenary
But in a circle, world without end,
Ainsi soit-il.

(I've read
> more about greek mythology than celtic), but it
> all sounds very plausible.

Same. But all mythology interests me - I'm actually
going to start a mythology category on Triviawars on
day! I've already got the application but haven't been
bothered sending it in.


> I have noticed that Julian does like to write
> about misfits in society - hmmm interesting -
> Perseus Spur also seems to focus on misfits and
> criminals.  Perhaps people identify more with the
> misfits than the heroes.  I know I find them more
> interesting.  Flawed personalities are certainly
> more fascinating than "normal" ones.  The funny
> thing is I didn't find Marc as compelling a
> character as Felice or Fury <shudder>

There is a line in MANY COLOURED LAND which sums it up
pretty well. Mercy is talking about the reasons she is
going into Exile. She says (and I can't quote it 100%)
'I found a little solace in music, in the pageants, in
drugs....but essentially I was a bit of non-viable
scum on the vaunted human gene pool.' And I think a
lot of people feel like this, not just in the Milieu
but also in real life.
It is the old existentialist way of thinking
really...what is the purpose in my life, why am I
here.  Some people find ways to reassure themselves
that they have a raison d'etre, such as religion, or
destiny or whatever. In the milieu it became Unity.
But some people are never going to be able to provide
themselves with a completely adequate reason for
living. So living itself is not really sufficient
reason for life. These people, like Mercy, can find
'solace' - mainly through addiction (harmful or
non-harmful. eg, and obsession with music is usually
positive not negative, as is an addiction to one's
work). The happiness and contentment derived from the
different varieties of solace we take is enough to
alleviate the emptiness and despair felt by someone
who doesn't truly feel like they have a reason for
living. Thus, they won't commit suicide. But when an
opportunity like Exile presents itself they see this
as a way to provide themself with a reason for living,
or perhaps a way to avoid needing a reason for living
(e.g. if you are living six million years in the past,
do you really need a reason to live??? You can have
more fun that way).
Others, such as Aiken, are probably completely
ignorant  of this turmoil that disturbs many humans.
He sees no impediment to the fun and risk that makes
his life worth living (even the law). He is much
better suited to a less structured society where his
willfulness, trickiness and skill are appreciated.
The others find happiness in the Tanu way of life
because it allows them to exercise qualities
unnecessary in the modern world e.g. romanticism,
chivalry, bloodthirstiness.

I think May writes about people like this because they
are easy to identify with. Think about it - what is
the penultimate criticism hurled at lovers of sff????
That they are escapist. In a lot of ways this is true.
If you enjoy sff most likely you enjoy the thought of
being in a world 'bigger' in some way than your own.
Better, even. Or even maybe simpler. But, a reader is
most likely to sympathise with traits they themselves
share e.g. in Mercy's case an inability to feel like
she really belongs in the time she is in. She feels
she would 'fit' better in sixteenth century France
than she does in 21st century Earth. Most sff fans
fantasise about themselves fitting in better in the
worlds they write or read about than they do in the
world they are in ( I do at least *g*).
I would say May was exactly the same when she was
young and first started reading sff. She thought about
a place where she would belong and then she wrote
about it. Seriously, how many people love the Exile
series because they think about how much they would
love being on Pliocene earth? How they would fit into
Tanu society, what they would have taken with them
through the gate, what professions they would have
studied, what costume they would have worn? You know,
Pliocene Earth is an perfect setting for an RPG.


  and I'd
> hoped that as Julian left Felice and Cul in
> limbo, there was going to be more to that story
> ... oh well.
>
> Ciao
> Avalon


What is the answer to that mystery? I was sure that
the Great Carbuncle was Felice and Cul, I thought Marc
took the ruby because no one else in Exile could
handle it. Even if it does say somewhere that the ruby
was still buried under a mountain, I think AU would
have been able to dig it up, and perhaps reshape it to
harness it's powers. It is just too coincidental that
a strange ruby in Au and then Rogi's possession should
come to play a part in so many events in the series.
But there are tons of coincidences of course.
What were you saying about Dougal, Ian? Why did you
think his presence strange, almost diabolical - as far
as I could see he didn't do much except cry out about
the 'faery iron'. But, I have always thought one
particular thing he says incredibly strange - it is
when he names Aiken as a scion of the royal house of
Scotland. That is never truly explained - how could
Dougal know that Aiken was the nonborn son of Davy
MacGregor? Aiken himself never knew, and it is never
stated in the novels _only in the Milieu period
geneologies_
Hmmmmmmm, one to think on,
leticia

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

Thanks for the Red Dwarf info Letitia - I will
keep my eyes open on ABC.

Very tidy hypothesis - I wish I knew something
about irish mythology, but I don't (I've read
more about greek mythology than celtic), but it
all sounds very plausible.  It also appeals to my
sense of order in the universe <smiles> (I hate
messy endings that don't tie up loose ends and
explain everything).  [If I can't have it in life
I'd better have it in books.]

I have noticed that Julian does like to write
about misfits in society - hmmm interesting -
Perseus Spur also seems to focus on misfits and
criminals.  Perhaps people identify more with the
misfits than the heroes.  I know I find them more
interesting.  Flawed personalities are certainly
more fascinating than "normal" ones.  The funny
thing is I didn't find Marc as compelling a
character as Felice or Fury <shudder> and I'd
hoped that as Julian left Felice and Cul in
limbo, there was going to be more to that story
... oh well.

Ciao
Avalon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

> I don't know if Oz gets Red Dwarf - I havn't seen
> it advertised but will be horrified if we don't
> get it.  Letitia - have you ever heard of/seen
> Red Dwarf on TV here?

Yes, they run a bit behind time but the ABC shows it.
It used to be on very late as well, about 11pm on
Monday night or something like that. I don't know if
it has been on lately - I haven't watched much TV for
over a year.


> By the way, (on topic) does anyone remember if a
> reason was given why Mercy turned out to be a
> Tanu

Lord Greggy Donnet did a genetic assay of her. It
turned out that she had a greater proportion of Tanu
or Tanu look-alike genes that she did human. I guess
it would be like she was 99.9% the same as a Tanu and
normal humans were only 98% similar. Something like
that anyway.
The impression that one gets from the EXILE series is
that under Aiken's kingship the Tanu lived on for
millennia in their Many Coloured Land. Nothing in
their way of life ever realy changed, but the world
around them very gradually did. I would speculate that
the human Lowlives, who could not be controlled by the
Tanu or the Firvulag after Group Green's discoveries
about iron etc, grew and spread across Europe. The
ramas would have evolved independently into humanoids,
and probably bred with the remnants of the Milieu
Timetravellers during the Ice Aes. Following the Ice
Ages, the Tanu would have melted into the edges of
society I would imagine. They would not ride in Hunts
across the sky or build towering cities. Their society
would splinter gradually. BUt their traditional enmity
towrds the Firvulag would have continued. They would
still have been somewhat powerful figures to the
humans they cohabited Europe with, particularly when
humans once again lost the use of iron. But with the
rediscovery of iron they would have started to fade
into legend. The events narrated in EXILES would have
been part of Tanu legend forever after, and some of
the Tanu characters in the novel may foreseeably have
survived into this era (AD or CE).
They would have retreated to remote, mystical places
such as Brittany and Ireland. In Ireland, partcularly,
their legends remained - the beautiful Sidhe and their
magical powers, the horrible Firbolg who were their
ancenstral enemy. Nuada Silverhand and Shining Lugh
Long-Hand who slew Balor One-Eye with a catapault.
Then the Sidhe began to drift into obscurity, so that
only a few heroes ever saw them again. Amairgin and
Finn Mac Cool supposedley married women of the Sidhe,
so they were still closely enough linked to
interbreed. But gradually they passed away. leaving
nothing but snatches of song, like the 'Londonderry
Air' to remind us that they had ever existed.
That, and a genetic heritage. Even though most Tanu
were latent, enough of their genes passing into the
human gene pool over time resulted in the _human_
population of earth having a much higher latent racial
metapsychic profile than they would have if the Tanu
had never come. I think that if an individual had a
high number of those Tanu genes which granted
metapsychic precocity to the human race, then they
might have been very unhappy individuals unless they
were operant, well-integrated humans.
An operant like Denis Remillard would be a
well-adjusted, respected, contributing member of
society. Imagine the powers of a Marc, or a Jack,
trapped inside their head. People like Aiken, Mercy
and Felice carried the enormous heritage of
metapsychic power but could not use it. Instead they
became deviants, criminals (c.f. Kieran too in a way)
or misfits. The strange Tanu genes which gave the
operant members of society their status and
satisfaction gave some of the latents nothing but
discontent, longing (almost a hiraeth I think Avalon
;) ) and an inabiltity to fit into *boring* Milieu
society.
Thus, many of those who were succesfully integrated
into Tanu society would have been those who,
obviously, had latent MP ability. According to my
reading, the reason they carried genes for latency at
all was because they were descended from Tanu (and,
ironically, probably from themselves). And those same
Tanu genes produced certain misfit characteristics
which prevented their integration into Milieu society
but made them infinitely suited to the Pliocene. These
were the longing for archaic tradition, violence,
feudalism etc - all anachronisms in the Galactic age.
Any comments?
leticia

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

> "You know that bit where Lister jump starts the
> second big bang with
> jump leads from StarBug?...
>
> Well that's the final irony isn't it? Lister
> the ultimate atheist
> turns out in fact to be God..." Red Dwarf V -
> Back to Reality.

Ian!

You are a Red Dwarf fan!!  (I know this is
completely off topic guys).

I don't know if Oz gets Red Dwarf - I havn't seen
it advertised but will be horrified if we don't
get it.  Letitia - have you ever heard of/seen
Red Dwarf on TV here?

By the way, (on topic) does anyone remember if a
reason was given why Mercy turned out to be a
Tanu (I can't remember - I will have to re-read
these books again soon, but am half way through
Perseus Spur at the moment).

Ciao
Avalon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 02:01:41 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>> Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man
>> project. The Lylmik
>> take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of
>> them.
>
>Whaaaat? I'm going to have to reread MAGNIFICAT
>tonight. I thought that the earthquake killed the
>Hydra paramounts. Do you mean the embryos that were
>not made into mental man children....none of those
>were paramounts as I recall. I don't recall the Lylmik
>taking them.

Well, as I recall it's the materials. The "for the masses" stuff as
well as, I think, maddies ovary...

Even the for the masses materials would be enough given the timelines
over which it runs...

However, as I said it's moot. May didn't take the story that way and
gave us a nice star trek ending.

"Damn all we really had to do was realign the tri-lithium crystal
through the phased plasma generator and reconstruct the di-lithium
crystals."

As I said I was disappointed with Magnificat. As were most of the
people I know who had followed the series. You get used to it with Sci
Fi though... *shrug* The rest of the series rocks and you get to enjoy
what was constructed in the end.

You do have to realise that many of us read the first books over 12
years ago and were waiting for each new book for several years.
>
>
>The Lylmik were given to strange experimentation, e.g.
>the creation of Orb. But do you really think Marc
>would have learned manipulation of time even as AU?
>That was of course the problem that he faced for all
>those insane years on Pliocene Earth. I thought he
>would have learned the time jump then if ever. Of
>course, it took Felice to teach him to d-jump (LOL!).
>

Indeed. We are told that in the science of the Mileu this was heard of
but not understood. Whereas the time gate was fully understood and had
been built with machines.

Again it's beside the point. May didn't choose to take us there...
Oddly enough conjecture with friends was a lot more fun than the last
book. Though even were it her intent to take things that far it would
be understandable for a writer not to want to loose *that* upon the
world.

Certainly her later stuff is more comic book in style. Jolly good
stuff but without the darkness of the Milleu etc.

>
>Yes, but I think it suited his sense of humour to
>remain anonymous. Particularly in the scene at the end
>of Magnificat. He has forgotten that the quote Marc
>spouts at him comes from Giambattista Marino. That
>quote is about having undertaken something grand and
>failing - and the achievement being simply in the
>attempt. I would think that AU would have recalled
>this very clearly if he was really a evil genius with
>a masterplan that he had fostered over six million
>years.
LOL.

>After all, it would have appealed to him then that
>Marc had not failed at all. However, he seems to be
>very blase about the whole thing.

Things often take time and other things...

>
>> It's moot given that we are not privy to the end AU
>> see's for himself.
>> (Though it's interesting that he know's that he will
>> be off the scene
>> at a certain point.)
>
>He knows this through prolepsis - and we know he isn't
>pretending to have foresight for all Lylmik had that
>skill to some degree. I would argue for the end scene
>of MAGNIFICAT when he asks Rogi to pray for him as
>evidence against any serious evilness - it is very
>touching and it most definitely seems like he is gone
>for good then. I imagine he decided to lay down his
>life as Elizabeth had milennia before.

That can work for me in a rather soft kind of way.

However, having had the arrogance to decide that one was the hand of
God I can relate to wanting to have someone at least prepared to pray
for one. We all play the hand we are dealt.

The scene works far better (for me) with, as you put it, the evil
genius with a masterplay that he had fostered over six million years.

Strikes me as a rather lonely role to play. One I certainly would not
envy. To know ones mind and to then just do it. To do otherwise is to
deny the gifts one is endowed with. If there is a God Mark is a lot
nearer his maker at this point in the story than at any other point.

Remember waiting for the results of your final exam?
>
>
>> The question would then be "does time exist outside
>> of this bubble?".
>> Mark as God? *shudder*
>
>I have to go for a bus now so I'll respond in more
>detail on that point later...
>leticia
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
>http://invites.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>

>I'm having fun talking about Marc but does anyone want
>to talk about Fury too?? I find it difficult to accept
>Fury really. It all seems too unconvincing
>(suprisingly for May!). Ian, maybe you will try and
>convince us that Fury was really Marc, inserting a
>second personality into Denis at the time of Vincent's
>death??? :-)))


Again it's out of context really now that the final book was released.
I did wonder about the great carbuncle and the ruby within which
Felice/Cull were imprisoned. Though somewhere in the series we are
told that it is still beating under a mountain in Spain. Can't recall
where. Plus the geometry of the object is wrong.

Also the concept of Super-Hate leaking through the generations. To
Kieran from <?> To Victor from Kieran. To Denis from Victor. To Mark
from Denis. Fury wins in the end. The human race in all it's "Glory"
supreme in the Galaxy.

I do like people but I prefer to be drunk or busy when there are many
of them about!


>Vincent, he's a weird one I'd like to talk about him
>too. Hey, by the way, who was Laura Tremblay's
>father?? She definitely wasn't Gerard Tremblay's
>daughter as he was in prison at the time. And Vincent
>vehemently denied actually having had intercourse with
>Shannon, even though she was convinced he was the
>father (it is quite chilling how similar Marc became
>to Vincent for a while, so cold and, as Vincent called
>himself, 'self-sufficient'). I can only assume she was
>Kieran's daughter, but I had thought Shannon slept
>with him only once???
>Makes sense either way as this is increasing the
>homozygosity of the Mental Man children and also of
>the Muldowney-Remillard children.
>Abother thing, just out of curiosity....do you think
>that since Cloud's son Marc-Ange was born to a latent
>Tanu, would he have been as powerfully operant as her
>children to another powerful operant would have been?
>Hagen and Cloud's shildren should have been operant
>paramounts but this way have put a spanner in the
>works.
>Anyone interested in discussing the Irish mythological
>aspects of the Tanu? I'd like to go through the
>characters of the exile series and work out the
>mythological counterparts - some of them are easy,
>Felice (morrigan), Aiken (Lugh), Dionket  etc. Others
>are harder but in the afterward May said they were all
>traceable to an archetype.
>
>Anyway, time to sign off for tonight unless someone
>else checks in before I go to sleep...
>Leda

regards,
Ian

"You are only flesh and blood, waiting too for judgment"

You know what we have been missing in this whole
discussion about Marc??????
The role of Fury implanting the Mental Man idea in his
brain.
Fury is a tricky topic with these novels (personally I
never really understood it and I think the whole
Denis/Fury thing a bit strange. We can honestly say
that Marc was a cold person anyway with megamaniacal
tendencies. BUt how much of the horrifying mental man
project that made Marc so abhorrent was his idea and
how much was Fury's?
I've been rereading MAGNIFICAT. THat the idea for
mental man and the antipathy/envy towards Jack was
largely instituted by Fury in DIamond Mask is moot.
But Marc still fully intended to grow the offspring of
himself and Rosamund Remillard (really Madeleine
Remillard - Marc didn't know about this until the
end)as normal humans. Until Fury came to him while he
was asleep and planted the idea that Marc would not
have time for the Rebel preceptive program he had
planned.
Mental Man 'must be ready within two years' Fury
said...."Mental Man can be forced. By Jackforming.
There will be some attrition but a sufficient number
of individuals will make the transition
successfully.'Marc replys 'IT WOULD BE WRONG'. So, he
did have a conscience at that point.
Admittedly when he kills Madeleine he is completely
turned. But how much of his evil is from Fury???


Curiosity:
"Denis Hagen Muldowney Remillard (his mother insisted
upon the unusual second name but refused to explain
why)."

What does Hagen mean?


As for Marc's inability to love, Rogi says "Was it
actually possible that this magnificent, appalling man
whom I sadly relegated to the status of emotional
cripple had discovered human love?" This is re his
marriage to Cyndia. BUt since he originally fell so
hard for Cyndia due to the post-hypnotic suggestion
that Fury and Hydra implanted so he would engender
Mental Man with Madeleine, his affection for Cyndia is
supsect as evidence for his ability to love. Certainly
he cared for her but.....

I'm having fun talking about Marc but does anyone want
to talk about Fury too?? I find it difficult to accept
Fury really. It all seems too unconvincing
(suprisingly for May!). Ian, maybe you will try and
convince us that Fury was really Marc, inserting a
second personality into Denis at the time of Vincent's
death??? :-)))
Vincent, he's a weird one I'd like to talk about him
too. Hey, by the way, who was Laura Tremblay's
father?? She definitely wasn't Gerard Tremblay's
daughter as he was in prison at the time. And Vincent
vehemently denied actually having had intercourse with
Shannon, even though she was convinced he was the
father (it is quite chilling how similar Marc became
to Vincent for a while, so cold and, as Vincent called
himself, 'self-sufficient'). I can only assume she was
Kieran's daughter, but I had thought Shannon slept
with him only once???
Makes sense either way as this is increasing the
homozygosity of the Mental Man children and also of
the Muldowney-Remillard children.
Abother thing, just out of curiosity....do you think
that since Cloud's son Marc-Ange was born to a latent
Tanu, would he have been as powerfully operant as her
children to another powerful operant would have been?
Hagen and Cloud's shildren should have been operant
paramounts but this way have put a spanner in the
works.
Anyone interested in discussing the Irish mythological
aspects of the Tanu? I'd like to go through the
characters of the exile series and work out the
mythological counterparts - some of them are easy,
Felice (morrigan), Aiken (Lugh), Dionket  etc. Others
are harder but in the afterward May said they were all
traceable to an archetype.

Anyway, time to sign off for tonight unless someone
else checks in before I go to sleep...
Leda



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

> Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man
> project. The Lylmik
> take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of
> them.

Whaaaat? I'm going to have to reread MAGNIFICAT
tonight. I thought that the earthquake killed the
Hydra paramounts. Do you mean the embryos that were
not made into mental man children....none of those
were paramounts as I recall. I don't recall the Lylmik
taking them.

  As I've
> alluded in my other post the people I know, who had
> read the series,
> all conjectured upon the idea that the knots only
> start to unravel
> with two time jumps back wards...
>
> Consider the idea of AU jumping back, with the
> babies, engendering the
> Lylmik for the earlier version of himself to make
> contact with. We
> know that in Mays world time travel is feasable.
> Mark has already
> mastered the manipulation of fields to allow him to
> d-jump...

The Lylmik were given to strange experimentation, e.g.
the creation of Orb. But do you really think Marc
would have learned manipulation of time even as AU?
That was of course the problem that he faced for all
those insane years on Pliocene Earth. I thought he
would have learned the time jump then if ever. Of
course, it took Felice to teach him to d-jump (LOL!).

> We also know that AU isn't above dealing directly
> with his previous
> self.

Yes, but I think it suited his sense of humour to
remain anonymous. Particularly in the scene at the end
of Magnificat. He has forgotten that the quote Marc
spouts at him comes from Giambattista Marino. That
quote is about having undertaken something grand and
failing - and the achievement being simply in the
attempt. I would think that AU would have recalled
this very clearly if he was really a evil genius with
a masterplan that he had fostered over six million
years.
After all, it would have appealed to him then that
Marc had not failed at all. However, he seems to be
very blase about the whole thing.

> It's moot given that we are not privy to the end AU
> see's for himself.
> (Though it's interesting that he know's that he will
> be off the scene
> at a certain point.)

He knows this through prolepsis - and we know he isn't
pretending to have foresight for all Lylmik had that
skill to some degree. I would argue for the end scene
of MAGNIFICAT when he asks Rogi to pray for him as
evidence against any serious evilness - it is very
touching and it most definitely seems like he is gone
for good then. I imagine he decided to lay down his
life as Elizabeth had milennia before.


> The question would then be "does time exist outside
> of this bubble?".
> Mark as God? *shudder*

I have to go for a bus now so I'll respond in more
detail on that point later...
leticia



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:02:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>> One thing I disagree with is the point that he
>> *made* the Lylmik into their
>> discorporeal form, as he mentions in 'Diamond Mask'
>> that he 'adopted their
>> peculiar race as my own', which seems to imply that
>> they were already
>> discorporeal, and that by then he was discorporeal
>> himself. How? Did he
>> forcibly jump to the next step in evolution or was
>> there some weird genes he
>> had like Jon that changed him. Or maybe evolution
>> into a discorporeal form
>> would have happened by itself anyway, and I don't
>> really see that as a
>> horrible thing (although the way Marc tried to force
>> this process in
>> 'Magnificat' is unforgiveable).
>
>I don't know about this. This is one of the major
>ambiguities of the novels which I think each reader
>has to decide upon alone. There are a few
>possibilities here: Marc fully atoned, found the
>Lylmik and became one of them, then guiding humankind
>+ exotics towards a higher evolutionary goal that was
>inevitable anyway. Or, Marc did not fully atone but
>changed the Lylmik into Mental Man, THEN atoned and
>developed the scheme to realease Rogi's
>autobiographies in order to prevent the same thing
>happening again. Or, Marc never fully atoned, only
>seemed to atone. He never gave up his end goal of
>Mental Man though the methods by which he engendered
>this became more ethical (Mental Man project =
>horrific; Lylmik = worked but ended in stagnation for
>the race; Humans = inevitable anyway?).
>I think I would argue for the second option. There are
>too many clues to the Lylmik form (or lack thereof)
>being Marc's doing. In DIAMOND MASK, the Quincunx
>debate themselves on their racial orgins and the fact
>that they are incredibly similar to Jack. In fact,
>They say that he is more akin to themselves than to
>his own genetic kind. His brain in _different_ to
>humans - and who knew more about Jackforming than
>Marc???? Besides, I think it unlikely that Marc would
>have been discorporeal prior to leaving the Duat
>galaxy. After all, his corporeal form was immortal and
>he had the ability to transport it intergalactically.
>I think (just a hunch) that he went to the Lylmik in
>his corporeal form and over generations of experiment,
>managed to make himself and them discorporeal. Perhaps
>they already had evolutionary leanings that way: I
>think it more than likely. Do you think Elizabeth
>would have out up with Marc becoming a Mental Man
>while he was in the Duat galaxy with her?
>The possbility that Marc 'jackformed' the Lylmik is
>voiced with rage by Hagen Remillard at the beginning
>of MAGNIFICAT.
>

Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man project. The Lylmik
take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of them. As I've
alluded in my other post the people I know, who had read the series,
all conjectured upon the idea that the knots only start to unravel
with two time jumps back wards...

Consider the idea of AU jumping back, with the babies, engendering the
Lylmik for the earlier version of himself to make contact with. We
know that in Mays world time travel is feasable. Mark has already
mastered the manipulation of fields to allow him to d-jump...

We also know that AU isn't above dealing directly with his previous
self.

It's moot given that we are not privy to the end AU see's for himself.
(Though it's interesting that he know's that he will be off the scene
at a certain point.) It just struck most of us as so odd that a
character with Marks self assurance wouldn't have made contact with
himself at some point. Thinking about it who could resist such a
meeting given it's possibility? We know it's possible from the
encouter on Orb.

The question would then be "does time exist outside of this bubble?".
Mark as God? *shudder*

regards,
Ian

"You know that bit where Lister jump starts the second big bang with
jump leads from StarBug?...

Well that's the final irony isn't it? Lister the ultimate atheist
turns out in fact to be God..." Red Dwarf V - Back to Reality.

--- nicolel@... wrote:
> Hi Leticia,
>
> I agree with you that at the same time you think
> Marc is well, scum you
> can't help be fascinated by him, and that the people
> around him did see his
> icy manner as a challenge to get through to him
> (ironically, Elizabeth
> dismissed him initially as a lost cause and someone
> you wouldn't touch with
> a 10 foot pole).

He's definitely a cold fish. I think you may have hit
the nail on the head when you say the people around
him found his 'icy manner' a 'challenge'. I think that
is the thing that always fascinated me about him - the
rock solid belief that someone so brilliant, so
captivating _must_ have a heart. But so much of the
time he showed absolutely no evidence of that being
true. I think that is why so many people who loved him
e.g. Cynthia, Jack, Patricia, Adrienne, thought that
if only the could get a little closer to him, be there
for him, he would open up and love them in the way
they loved him. But he never really did. Actually,
take that back for Jack - I think Marc did love him in
the beginning, but this love got lost in his obsession
with Jack's mutation. He no longer saw his brother,
but someone who couldn't accept the 'gift' they had
been given.
I think you are right in pointing out Elizabeth as the
exception. I earnestly _want_ to believe that Marc
really did love her. I do have my doubts but. Maybe he
came close, but not quite close enough to redeem
himself. As AU, he still displays so many of the
meglomaniacal and obsessive traits that characterised
Marc the A***hole. But, I did not feel that Elizabeth
'dismissed' him as such. I felt more that she was
terrified of him - or more accurately, perhaps,
terrified of what she might feel for him. He was
anathema, the Angel of the Abyss, but I think right
from her first contact with him she was feeling that
same attraction towards him that we have been
discussing. She was fascinated by Abaddon, and found
that unforgiveable in herself. She secretly wanted the
challenge of making Marc love, and perhaps she
actually did the impossible (and she was fully
cognizant of that impossibility) and bought real love
from him.
Read the scene in THE ADVERSARY where he d-jumps in
his full CE rig and helps her with that black torc.
She is terrified of linking with him, and I don't
think it is just the understandable fear of the Devil
stealing her mind. When he takes the focus in the
metaconcert from her, she panics and is incredibly
angry with him, but subliminally I think they are both
aware that she wanted to sucumb. To his superior MP
assay and his overwhelming charm.


> One thing I disagree with is the point that he
> *made* the Lylmik into their
> discorporeal form, as he mentions in 'Diamond Mask'
> that he 'adopted their
> peculiar race as my own', which seems to imply that
> they were already
> discorporeal, and that by then he was discorporeal
> himself. How? Did he
> forcibly jump to the next step in evolution or was
> there some weird genes he
> had like Jon that changed him. Or maybe evolution
> into a discorporeal form
> would have happened by itself anyway, and I don't
> really see that as a
> horrible thing (although the way Marc tried to force
> this process in
> 'Magnificat' is unforgiveable).

I don't know about this. This is one of the major
ambiguities of the novels which I think each reader
has to decide upon alone. There are a few
possibilities here: Marc fully atoned, found the
Lylmik and became one of them, then guiding humankind
+ exotics towards a higher evolutionary goal that was
inevitable anyway. Or, Marc did not fully atone but
changed the Lylmik into Mental Man, THEN atoned and
developed the scheme to realease Rogi's
autobiographies in order to prevent the same thing
happening again. Or, Marc never fully atoned, only
seemed to atone. He never gave up his end goal of
Mental Man though the methods by which he engendered
this became more ethical (Mental Man project =
horrific; Lylmik = worked but ended in stagnation for
the race; Humans = inevitable anyway?).
I think I would argue for the second option. There are
too many clues to the Lylmik form (or lack thereof)
being Marc's doing. In DIAMOND MASK, the Quincunx
debate themselves on their racial orgins and the fact
that they are incredibly similar to Jack. In fact,
They say that he is more akin to themselves than to
his own genetic kind. His brain in _different_ to
humans - and who knew more about Jackforming than
Marc???? Besides, I think it unlikely that Marc would
have been discorporeal prior to leaving the Duat
galaxy. After all, his corporeal form was immortal and
he had the ability to transport it intergalactically.
I think (just a hunch) that he went to the Lylmik in
his corporeal form and over generations of experiment,
managed to make himself and them discorporeal. Perhaps
they already had evolutionary leanings that way: I
think it more than likely. Do you think Elizabeth
would have out up with Marc becoming a Mental Man
while he was in the Duat galaxy with her?
The possbility that Marc 'jackformed' the Lylmik is
voiced with rage by Hagen Remillard at the beginning
of MAGNIFICAT.


  humans would in a
> million years time evolve into discorporeal beings
> and yet retain their
> humanity and help others.

This was the whole point about Jack - he didn't have
humn form but he was eminently human. That was exactly
what made Marc's Mental Man project so horrifying -
what he produced wouldn't have been human in form or
mind. The Lylmik were not either. And only time would
provide the ultimate redemption for or indictment of
Marc: having set Man along the path to discorporality,
the end result would be the judge of his intentions.
If they became Jacks then he was good and he atoned.
If they became Mental Men, then he never really
changed.


   Having
> realised what a horrible
> person he's been he also starts carrying guilt (and
> fear?) for the rest of
> his life that he might resort to his former evil
> ways, which was a kind of
> suffering in itself. No, it wasn't enough for what
> he had done, but it was a
> start.

The kahuna Malama suggests this in MAGNIFICAT and I'm
inclined to believe her, but I still can't let myslef
believe totally.....

I'll leave it at that for now, but thanks a million
for the Frontier contact ;-)

Leticia



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the fortuitous events
which pervade the entire series.

People like Dougal, Tony Wayland indeed the entire of Group Green. For
a time it could have been explained by the AU concept but there seems
to be something else at work. Or a case of Star Trek esque "deus ex
machina".

Personally I find deus ex machina irritating in fiction and find it
hard to comprehend that May didn't have first causes for the seeming
abundance of coincidence in the series.

I have to admit to being a little let down by the conclusion of the
series and that so many threads are left untrimmed. Though I guess
that we can see the same effect in real life.

regards,
Ian

Hi Leticia,

I agree with you that at the same time you think Marc is well, scum you
can't help be fascinated by him, and that the people around him did see his
icy manner as a challenge to get through to him (ironically, Elizabeth
dismissed him initially as a lost cause and someone you wouldn't touch with
a 10 foot pole).

One thing I disagree with is the point that he *made* the Lylmik into their
discorporeal form, as he mentions in 'Diamond Mask' that he 'adopted their
peculiar race as my own', which seems to imply that they were already
discorporeal, and that by then he was discorporeal himself. How? Did he
forcibly jump to the next step in evolution or was there some weird genes he
had like Jon that changed him. Or maybe evolution into a discorporeal form
would have happened by itself anyway, and I don't really see that as a
horrible thing (although the way Marc tried to force this process in
'Magnificat' is unforgiveable).

OK, before you start jumping up and down :-) I'll admit I'm biased by my
favourite sci-fi TV show 'Babylon 5' which showed that humans would in a
million years time evolve into discorporeal beings and yet retain their
humanity and help others.  So perhaps the way it is is that Marc, having
reconciled himself to his body becomes discorporeal anyway. Having attained
this original goal does he look down on the other races and sneer because
they're still 'chained to matter'? Oddly, no. In 'Intervention' the other
Lylmik look down a bit on *him* because he likes adopting human form (he
can't be without his favourite food pea soup?) and helping people.

Also in 'Diamond Mask' he says to Rogi that before he met Liz he'd never
been in love before, implying that he then recognised for the first time his
inability to love (or to relate to) people. Having realised what a horrible
person he's been he also starts carrying guilt (and fear?) for the rest of
his life that he might resort to his former evil ways, which was a kind of
suffering in itself. No, it wasn't enough for what he had done, but it was a
start.

Once again, I'll say that humans naturally evolving into discorporeal form
isn't wrong if they still keep their essential humanity, but the way that
Marc tried to force it was.

On to another subject before I sign off (about time too? :-) )  -
conventions. I can say that in answer to your question that they can be fun.
It's also great to talk to people on a similar wave length to you that won't
give you funny looks when you talk about Star Wars, or suggest that sci-fi
is something that you should've grown out of by now, which is what I get at
times. (I just say that if shows like Babylon 5/Star Trek which deal with
issues like standing up for what's right are things you have to 'grow out
of' then society is sicker than I thought. That keeps them quiet :-) ).

As to going to cons in Australia, there's a great Australian sci-fi mag that
I pick up whenever I'm there for a holiday called 'Frontier'. It's a $6
quarterly mag that has a list of current cons, even some in Sydney (and
sometimes I'm envious at the quality of guests that attend!). Their contact
details are:

frontier@...
http://frontieronline.virtualave.net

Hope this is of help,

- Nicolette :-)

Hi Letica,

I think I can go along with this most of the way. Mark is certainly
enigmatic but at some point you have to look for substance. Perhaps
not so much in a character in a novel but certainly in people.

Just two points. As I recall Manion has to be kept in a docilator to
keep him in line in the exile world. Not really what I would call a
"friend". Of all those in exile I get the impression that most were in
thrall to Mark. Not out of love but out of necessity. Patrica being
the notable exception though she was in thrall in a different way.

With everyone but Elizabeth (about whom we know nothing) this guy
wears out his welcome. Even the mother of his children seeks to render
him sterile. She messes up out of love (ie Doesn't just kill the
scummer), he does not.

Kieran O' Connor only strives to achive this level of nihilism. He
seeks the solace of "the dark mother" Mark is her spawn.

I'm sure that we have all come across people like this. That one felt
that there must be depth to but find that it's all a hall of mirrors
at the same level.

The second point is that this guy is the biggest mass murderer in
human history. The numbers put the holocaust to shame, and not even
out of hate/xenophobia but simply as a terrorist action.

In much the same way as the Hitler thing it could be said that this
person manages to change the world of humanity for the better. Yet
this cannot be said to alter the character of a man who would do that
which he does.

He is not unlike Frankenstein in Shellys novel. It never seems to
occur to either that the real horror is their own inability to love.
If you can love, you can be touched and your course can be changed.

regards,
Ian

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:14:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
<snip Letica's post>

Well, the first thing I have to say about Marc is that
in many ways Ian
is
completely right. He is a monumental jerk. Any
offensive epithet you
can
think of fits him like a silk skin.
But....there is something just so magical about him.
Compare him to
Felice,
for instance. Marc is complete 'scum'. Felice isn't.
You could actually
feel
sorry for her, because her personality had evolved as
it did as a
reaction
to the horrific treatment she suffered in childhood,
early adulthood,
and
under the Tanu. She acted out against her pain. Yet, I
could never
really
bring myself to like her.

Neither could anyone in the books, really. At times
some of them
respected
her, even admired her, and  Amerie apparently loved
her. But even
Amerie's
love is suspect - to what degree did Amerie love
Felice truly, and to
what
degree was she driven by a compulsive desire to help
(manifestation of
her
guilt over not being able to help her parents/martyr
complex)? Most
people
cared for Felice only for what she could do for them
with her inhuman
strength. Beyond that, the rage that she so barely
contained caused so
much
fear in the people around her that they couldn't abide
her.

I was repelled by Felice's character, no matter how
much I respected,
admired, and pitied her bravery. Yet as much as I
wanted to hate Mark
sometimes, I just couldn't. It is interesting though
to note the [very
few]
people who couldn't stand Mark - Diamond Mask,
certainly one of the
most
discerning people, didn't like him, but who else? Paul
Remillard I
guess.
Luc Remillard (but even then, I think a homoerotic
fascination that Luc
had
with his brother was at fault here) didn't like him;
his kids hated him
and
Alex Manion ended up hating him too. Just about
everyone else loved
him. Why
do we or I love a jerk like Mark, who deep down I
guess most sane
people
would be scared witless of, and dislike Felice, who
only deserved
pity???

May often describes Marc's magnetism as an aspect of
his immense
creativity...but didn't Felice have a similar
magnitude of creativity?

I don't know, he is just fascinating. And sooo
horrible. Ian is
absolutely
correct when he says he doesn't ever really suffer for
what he does. Or
really atone, I don't think. Yeah yeah, he goes to the
Duat galaxy and
helps
them to metapsychic maturity and becomes Elizabeth's
soulmate ra ra
ra....but what does he do next? Moves into the Milky
Way galaxy and
stuffs
his atonement up completely.
Avalon is right - he couldn't change what he had
already done/was
doing. But
still, I think it was his sense of humour that
developed in the Duat
galaxy,
not his sense of reparation. I seriously don't think
he accepted the
monumental nature of his crimes even throughout the
whole Duat sojourn.
Because the first thing he does when he enters the
Milky Way galaxy is
preceptor the Lylmik race on their path to metapsychic
operancy. The
five
races of the milieu all gossip about  the origins of
the Lylmik and
their
discorporeal form. The horrible thing about Marc is
that he NEVER gave
up
the Mental Man project. He sacrificed his aim to
progenitor Mental Man
physically, but not the aim to give birth to Mental
Man mentally. He
made
the Lylmik into Mental Man. And then, at the end of
MAGNIFICAT, when he
seems (as Unifex) to be urging the Lylmik towards
human form (an aspect
of
his newly developed sense of humour I think), you
think he has
completely
conquered his hatred of the physical form. But he
leaves the Milieu
with
humans at the forefront of a new push into evolution
which inevitably
leads
to the Jon form - Bodilessness. Discorporeal mind.
Mental Man.

I think that Mark never gave up this dream and that
this is what makes
him
so despicable as a human in a lot of ways - his
inability to even
perceive
that there may be differing points of view to his own,
that he has the
right
to impose on entire galactial systems _his_ beliefs,
ambitions and
desires.
But I think he does achieve some humanity in the
closing stages of his
life
(the last couple of millenia maybe :-) The warmth he
displays towards
Rogi
as Unifex, and little gestures such as the thing with
Adrienne
Remillard
(thanks for reminding me of that one Nicolette ;-),
above all his sense
of
humour - he didn't  have much of one as Mark - make me
feel that though
he
may not have atoned mentally, he did atone and grow
emotionally.

He is just such a striking individual. I think DIAMOND
MASK is my least
favourite of all the novels in the cycle (even though
I really love
it!)
because of the simple fact that he barely appears in
it. I find myself
reading and rereading the passages he appears in. Over
and over and
over. He
is horrendous but there is something - literally -
enthralling about
him.
But it is very much a self-destructive desire: it is
like Madeleine
Remillard and Patricia Castellane, or even Rogi;
wanting him so much,
Rogi
wanting to be there for him, but all of them knowing
he was barely
aware of
their presence. People like Marc are certainly
god-like: they are
untouchable - take for instance the scene on Orb where
Madeleine
seduces
Marc. He is so unbelievably charming, do you remember
the bit where he
makes
a diamond for her out of the coal on the fire. But he
brushes her
advances
on him away like chalk dust. Actually, chalk dust
clings a bit. Need a
better analogy. Obviously over-tired if I'm thinking
about chalk dust
(??).

Anyway,  think part of Marc's attraction is the fact
the he is so icy.
An
eternal challenge. A god.

This email is way too long. At least e-groups lets me
post emails this
long;
yahoo cuts them off at a certain point. Must go. Look
forward to
feedback on
what I've written so far. I really need to clarify and
crystallise why
I
think Marc is so captivating, why he is my favourite
character, so I'll
come
back to it tomorrow. I don't think I've been very
clear so far.
This is really interesting, going through each
character and dissecting
them. Marc has to be the first one though! He _is_ the
most important
character in the whole series (any fur rubbed the
wrong way by that??)

Anyway, I'll c u all later,

Leticia

PS> Now I want to go to a sci-fi convention. What are
they like? When
are
there some in Sydney?




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:37:49 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi Ian,
>
>You raised some interesting points about Marc. Here's my side. When I
>first saw his character I thought he was scum - charismatic and
>charming but still scum. Most authors would have killed off Marc at
>the end of 'Adversary' but Julian did something radical. She gave him
>his humanity back and let him discover his true potential. Like the
>character of Angel in 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' I find villains who
>seek redemption to be more interesting than the average bland hero in
>most fantasy/sci-fi books who hardly go through any character
>development.
>
>As for Marc not changing anything, well, Julian established that
>events couldn't be changed. No parallel universes or alternate
>histories.

Well as this is Julian's universe she gets to set the rules. However
at the time of the reopening of the time gate Mark knows nothing of
Atoning Unifex. In the timeline he is in there is noone to contact him
and let him know about the presence of AU in the Milky Way.

By the time that this is possible (after publication of Rogi's
memoirs) Mark is presumably outside of the reach of any contact. We
are told in BK1 of the Saga that the Tanu were the first of their race
to manage to make the leap accross space...

The character at the end of the Saga has a chance for redemption. To
my mindset returning to repeat the tragedy is not redemptive. The
family ghost admits to Rogi that his prescience fails him towards the
end of the Mileu series. Mark-AU do not know where all of this is
going. The only *additional* knowledge the creature has is that
afforded by Elizabeth and that very clearly is before the publication
of the memoirs.

So we have nothing to suggest that there is any *other* goal for Mark
other than that things happen exactly as they happen. Now I don't
think that the Mileu is a particularly bad place but I wouldn't say
that I see it as some Utopia that must be achieved. If there is any
hope in the entire series it is that there is a potential to move
forward from the point that Rogi is writing from.

As a personal view I would suggest that the Mileu world is in fact
retro the "morality" of our civilised late 20th early 21st century. At
least here we do not allow alpha male type to dominate through simple
agression / bulk. The milleu merely replaces the muscle of our distant
past with "meta powers". The result is entirely the same. Unity apart.

Unity must be taken on faith. If you can question Mark the same
question hangs over all of unity. Given that the supreme being of the
entire Unity is Mark/AU and the other llymic simply concur with all of
his (ego) decisions.


>Marc knew this and regretted that he couldn't change
>things. An example is at the ball in 'Jack the Bodiless'. He dances
>with his plain cousin Adrienne and makes her feel special because he
>knows she's going to die, that he can't change that and he was saying
>goodbye the best way he could. Reading the Milieu books and seeing
>things like that was to me high tragedy. Remember too,
>that 'Intervention' and the Milieu books were mostly being 'told' to
>Uncle Rogi so they could be 'published'. Why was this, and why was
>Marc so insistent that it had to be done? It was his way of warning
>people and future generations not to abuse their powers or they'd end
>up like him.
>
>As for destroying everything he touched, well, he helped Elizabeth
>create the Duat Milieu which, as he mentioned in 'Diamond Mask' was
>still doing fine after 6 million years.
True as far as it goes. *We* know nothing of what this place is. Given
the actions of AU any hopes for it are simply that, hopes.

In the actions of the book there is no level to which Mark/AU will not
stoop in order to achieve his goal. The way Rogi is treated is the
easiest measure. Rogi is mistreated not by the Mark of the Milleu but
by the AU of the Milleu. In his treatment we see the only measure we
have of AU.

>
>You don't have to agree with what I said, and I certainly don't want
>to start a flame war, but I'm just establishing how I see things.
>
>Kind Regards,
>
>- Nicolette :-)
Well I hope that we don't have to resort to flames. Getting where
others see things from can, occasionaly, be irritating. I shouldn't
imagine that any of us are sufficiently emotionaly involved with the
subject matter to be terribly prone to flames :)

I'm seriously interested in the "ethics" of the situation. As
individuals the people are like any we meet in our lives. Each has
it's value if we choose to appreciate it.

regards,
Ian

Hi Ian,

You raised some interesting points about Marc. Here's my side. When I
first saw his character I thought he was scum - charismatic and
charming but still scum. Most authors would have killed off Marc at
the end of 'Adversary' but Julian did something radical. She gave him
his humanity back and let him discover his true potential. Like the
character of Angel in 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' I find villains who
seek redemption to be more interesting than the average bland hero in
most fantasy/sci-fi books who hardly go through any character
development.

As for Marc not changing anything, well, Julian established that
events couldn't be changed. No parallel universes or alternate
histories. Marc knew this and regretted that he couldn't change
things. An example is at the ball in 'Jack the Bodiless'. He dances
with his plain cousin Adrienne and makes her feel special because he
knows she's going to die, that he can't change that and he was saying
goodbye the best way he could. Reading the Milieu books and seeing
things like that was to me high tragedy. Remember too,
that 'Intervention' and the Milieu books were mostly being 'told' to
Uncle Rogi so they could be 'published'. Why was this, and why was
Marc so insistent that it had to be done? It was his way of warning
people and future generations not to abuse their powers or they'd end
up like him.

As for destroying everything he touched, well, he helped Elizabeth
create the Duat Milieu which, as he mentioned in 'Diamond Mask' was
still doing fine after 6 million years.

You don't have to agree with what I said, and I certainly don't want
to start a flame war, but I'm just establishing how I see things.

Kind Regards,

- Nicolette :-)

Leticia - you mentioned the other day that Yahoo had 'logged you
out', well I've found I can only come here on my work computer as my
home computer throws a fit and kicks me out of egroups.

If you can find 'The Pliocene Companion' then buy it as it's really
great. It's got an A-Z of people/events/things in the Exile series,
an essay on how Julian assigned characters/events their own signature
classical music pieces and some interviews with Julian. One of the
fascinating things about Julian is that she went to sci-fi
conventions in costumes she had made. In the '70's she made a costume
covered with fake diamonds and idly wondered what kind a person would
wear a costume like that in life. Then the Story(TM) started growing
in her head..

Avalon - I'd like to see a picture one day of your torc :-)

I try to go to conventions if I can (I went to the Worldcon last year
in Melbourne). I belong to the Auckland sci-fi club so I'm in a
position to hear about any coming up.

- Nicolette

Hi everyone!

Letitia - it is funny to think of "celebrities"
as real people sometimes, I know.  I think its
all to easy (and frightening) to put them up on
pedestals.  I think we all do it though.  I'm as
susceptible as anyone to be overawed by talent.
My husband was very impressed with meeting
Julian, even though he had never read her books,
he found her a dynamic and interesting person.
We were her "minders" while she was at the
convention so got to spend a bit of time with
her.  You will probably find it funny that I
actually wanted Marion Bradley as my first choice
to attend!

I'm sure the torc was modelled on what Julian
imagined, although it is different to the cover
of "The Golden Torc" (which has an eagle flying
with a torc in its claws).  Its twisted (like a
rope) and doesn't taper at the top.  If I ever
find a picture of what it looks like, I'll post
it.

Isn't it funny that people are embarrassed to
admit they like sci fi.  Of course, theres a lot
of bad stuff out there but also lots of great,
far-thinking, inspiring stuff too.  When I was in
school I used to read Robert Heinlein, and it
still amazes me how many of the things he
imagined have come to pass (makes me sound old!)

Nicolette - what a shame you didn't know about
the convention.  It was quite an experience.  Its
always worth keeping an eye out for sci fi
conventions in case they have your favourite
author attending.  They are usually held over
Queens Birthday weekend and can be in Chch, Wgtn
or Akld.  You can usually find flyers in SF
bookshops or even a search on the net will turn
them up.

Ciao!
Avalon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Hi Avalon,

I nearly fell off the chair when you said you had met Julian at a
Wellington convention in '93 (if only I had been reading JM then as I
would have gone to it) and you had been given a golden torc necklace
too! wow! [ahem].

I found Felice to be interesting, in her own mad way. Interestingly,
when her personality became integrated by Elizabeth instead of
becoming Good(TM) she changed from being a sociopath to a 'sane'
sociopath.

High Thoughts,

- Nicolette :-)

Welcome Ian!

> I must say that I don't have the same problem you
> stated in finding
> people who have read these books. About 50% of the
> people in the
> office I work at have read the series as have most
> of my friends.
> I even have a friend living in Sidney who is a big
> fan of the series.
> :)
> It takes time for us to magnetize and draw into our
> lives our likes.
> At 32 I've had a few more years to do this.

Perhaps I'm just lacking in patience ;)
I think you are right about time for magnetising to
take place though...and also the will to draw people
with the same interests. I've found that other
interests that I have e.g. philosophy, I cam across
people with compatible outlooks as soon as I left high
school. Yet, with sci-fi, I think because until I
recently I was very ashamed of the facthat I read and
enjoyed sff so much I unconsciously prevented myself
coming across people whom I could communicate with re;
those interests. CS Lewis said that when he was a
child he loved fairy tales; when he became a young
adult, he was ashamed to read children's books and put
them away - only relatively late in his life did he go
back to it without shame.


> >> My favourite character is Marc/Atoning Unifex.
> Perhaps the most ugly character of any story that I
> have ever read.
>
> For myself I find that the chars that I like most
> are Ciaran O'Connor
> and Aiken Drum.
(obvious you are a celt - changing Kieran to Ciaran!)

> They seem to be missing the central flaw that
> destroys Mark and
> everything that he touches.
Definitely correct in _some_ ways - I'll start a new
email title for this one but because I think this
might run on for a while.

leda


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

> Yes I do wear the torc necklace - its not HUGE -
> only a couple of centimetres in diameter
> suspended from a chain (so it doesn't go around
> the neck).
>
> Ciao
> Avalon

Hey, great to you are on at the same time as me (bit
of a night owl?).
I can't believe you've met her!!! I was reading the
posts about half an hour ago and I ran into my
loungeroom sreeching....my flatmates thought I was
going mad! I got out my copy of the GOLDEN TORC and
tried to explain but of course it was a bit difficult!
It is amazing to think about May as a real person, to
realise that like anyone who writes, she writes
autobiographically - e.g. she actually fishes, and she
gave Diamond Mask her unusual taste for
designing/making jewellery because it was something
she herself enjoyed. Makes you wonder about to what
extent Dorothea was modelled on herself.

Is the torc exactly as May herself imagined the Tanu
torcs would have looked, but in smaller scale?

leticia

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Hi Ian!

Very thought provoking message.  Leticia - I'm
sure you will enjoy responding to the
psychological issues in this one!

I do find Felice's whole S&M thing with Cul quite
fascinating and I can empathise with some aspects
of her personality.  Some writers do like to
delve into the darker sides of the human psyche
(Jack Chalker also does this).

I read your assessment of Julian's efforts in the
Trillium books, so I look forward to Perseus
being a better read.  Incidentally, Julian looked
on the Trillium books as nothing very serious or
hard to write.  I have to admit, I need to
re-read her other books several times to really
get a grip on all that is happening/and all the
numerous characters (she has to keep a file card
index for their bios herself to keep track of
them all!).  I've re-read Exiles a few times but
need to go over Intervention and the following
ones again to freshen my memory.

Yes I do wear the torc necklace - its not HUGE -
only a couple of centimetres in diameter
suspended from a chain (so it doesn't go around
the neck).

Ciao
Avalon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Hi all,

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:41:43 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>I just thought I should introduce myself to the
>Group.  I'm 38 and recently moved from New
>Zealand to the Gold Coast in Australia.
>
>I've read all of Julian's books except for
>Perseus Spur (which is in my "to read" pile at
>the moment).  I've become more of a net addict
>lately which cuts into my reading in a big way!

You get past it eventually :) Perseus Spur is a good book in a
completely different way to the Saga - Intervention -Mileu. Rather
more of your "ripping yarns" but nicely constructed for that and
decidedly lower key.
>
>In 1993 a friend convinced me to help her run a
>science fiction convention in Wellington (I know,
>I know) and I suggested we invite Julian May to
>attend as she was one of my favourite authors.
>Amazingly she said "yes" so I was lucky enough to
>meet her.  She doesn't do many conventions out of
>the USA but was very interested in seeing NZ and
>particularly in fishing there.  As well as
>writing novels she also dabbles in designing and
>making her own jewellery, and myself and Lana
>were lucky enough to be presented with golden
>torc necklaces she had made as a thank you for
>inviting her.  Wow!
>
Great story. So do you actually wear the torcs?

>Carrying on with the general theme already
>started, I think the character I was most
>captivated by in the Exiles Saga was Felice.
>Although completely mad and a complete monster, I
>really admired her inner strength in resisting
>Cul to the bitter end.

This is an interesting interpretation. I must say I wonder about the
sado-masochistic streak there. I've often wondered about those who
will not give in when all that is required is to concede defeat for a
time. Necessary pain versus unnecessary pain.

I can imagine having Felice as a favorite character. There is not a
character in the books that is without their flaws as humans. This is
part of why they make such a good read. Any monstrous characteristics
of Felice are outside of her decision. She was tortured as a child, an
outsider as a teen and tortured before her elevation to near godhood.

The fabric of the lives of Julian Mays characters mirror the lives of
people in their complexity and density, with the single exception of
Mark.

I would like to take a moment to construct my "case against Mark".

Mental titan, born with a silver spoon. Destroys the lives of everyone
that he touches. Almost destroys a Galactic civilization. The
character *appears* to have integrity yet this is merely surface
gloss. This man-child-god never pays the price for anything. HE is
never the person that carries the pain of his decisions. Nor do we
ever see the moment of the commanders angst aside from those that he
commands.

This guy really believe that *anything* he *wants* is the right thing
for everyone. Having torn asunder a Galaxy and through the tapestry of
the tale he is given another chance. A way to "atone". How does he
choose to do this? By repeating everything in every excruciating
horror right until the end of the tale.

Now, being of a spiritual inclination, I hold that there is a plan.
Yet in this tale the goal for which all the pain suffering and
degradation is that which this person spurns at the start. God I can
forgive if he has a point that he/she is taking us to with all this
madness. Mark is just taking us back to the horror he caused.

At NO POINT *ANYWHERE* in the story does he show any genuine concern
about this. We have hinted that he "changed" when he went off to duat
with Elizabeth yet this person still chooses to live on and repeat his
atrocity.

For every other character in the series there are extenuating
circumstances. Mark just assumes for himself the role of God and a
rather Old Testament God at that.

This guy really sucks!

>
>Just as an aside, I find Julian's books quite
>different to other SF writers - the nearest I
>would say (that I have read) is Jack Chalker for
>gritty, unusual SF.  Has anyone else read him?
>
>Avalon

I haven't heard of Jack Chalker. The thing I found about May was the
female eye on a futuristic world. Rather like the products produced by
female designers. Practical and of the world rather than the toys that
we men (in general) prefer. Things like decamole. A world populated by
technology yet it is the little things that mark the progress and she
captures this. The idea of Kleenex being a major export to the galaxy.
A perception of what makes something a good solution to a problem
rather than an interesting boy toy.

Plus the little incidents which pepper the books. The rama trading
food with the rebels at the end of the first book. These are the
things which make a life worth living even though we don't tend to
appreciate them at the time. To actually appreciate them and manage to
insert them into a rather large and violent storyline show
considerable talent.

OMMV

regards,
Ian

I just thought I should introduce myself to the
Group.  I'm 38 and recently moved from New
Zealand to the Gold Coast in Australia.

I've read all of Julian's books except for
Perseus Spur (which is in my "to read" pile at
the moment).  I've become more of a net addict
lately which cuts into my reading in a big way!

In 1993 a friend convinced me to help her run a
science fiction convention in Wellington (I know,
I know) and I suggested we invite Julian May to
attend as she was one of my favourite authors.
Amazingly she said "yes" so I was lucky enough to
meet her.  She doesn't do many conventions out of
the USA but was very interested in seeing NZ and
particularly in fishing there.  As well as
writing novels she also dabbles in designing and
making her own jewellery, and myself and Lana
were lucky enough to be presented with golden
torc necklaces she had made as a thank you for
inviting her.  Wow!

Carrying on with the general theme already
started, I think the character I was most
captivated by in the Exiles Saga was Felice.
Although completely mad and a complete monster, I
really admired her inner strength in resisting
Cul to the bitter end.

Just as an aside, I find Julian's books quite
different to other SF writers - the nearest I
would say (that I have read) is Jack Chalker for
gritty, unusual SF.  Has anyone else read him?

Avalon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:28:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>Glad to welcome you!!!!!Good to have a strong
>antipodean prescence as well - most lists I'm on I'm
>about the only southern-hemispherer (where are u from
>Ian???).
I'm living in London but I'm actually from Dublin.


I must say that I don't have the same problem you stated in finding
people who have read these books. About 50% of the people in the
office I work at have read the series as have most of my friends.

I even have a friend living in Sidney who is a big fan of the series.
:)

It takes time for us to magnetize and draw into our lives our likes.
At 32 I've had a few more years to do this.
>
>
> 'The
>> Pliocene Companion' that had a list of the source
>> material Julian
>> used for her books (Jung, Joseph Campbell, Teilhard
>> de Chardin etc)
>> and lets say my book shelf is a little heavier these
>> days. :-)
>
>I've got to get this!!!Starting this list has made me
>realise just how much research and reading I'm going
>to have to do to satisfy my curiosity about this
>series.
>Could you write in a little 'review' on this bible,
>I've never actuallu even seen a copy.
>I've done a little researching myself...I'm actually
>going to sign out now and write about all that
>tomorrow as I wrote a huge about influences on the
>series and then yahoo logged out on me and I lost it
>and I've been at work for hours and I want to go home!
>
>Okay, see you all tomorrow.
>Leticia
>
>>
>> My favourite character is Marc/Atoning Unifex.
Perhaps the most ugly character of any story that I have ever read.

For myself I find that the chars that I like most are Ciaran O'Connor
and Aiken Drum.

They seem to be missing the central flaw that destroys Mark and
everything that he touches.

regards,
Ian

> I'm glad to be here - I'm twenty-something and I'm
> from Auckland, New
> Zealand.

Glad to welcome you!!!!!Good to have a strong
antipodean prescence as well - most lists I'm on I'm
about the only southern-hemispherer (where are u from
Ian???).


  'The
> Pliocene Companion' that had a list of the source
> material Julian
> used for her books (Jung, Joseph Campbell, Teilhard
> de Chardin etc)
> and lets say my book shelf is a little heavier these
> days. :-)

I've got to get this!!!Starting this list has made me
realise just how much research and reading I'm going
to have to do to satisfy my curiosity about this
series.
Could you write in a little 'review' on this bible,
I've never actuallu even seen a copy.
I've done a little researching myself...I'm actually
going to sign out now and write about all that
tomorrow as I wrote a huge about influences on the
series and then yahoo logged out on me and I lost it
and I've been at work for hours and I want to go home!

Okay, see you all tomorrow.
Leticia

>
> My favourite character is Marc/Atoning Unifex.


ps if the above is meant with all sincerity, we are
going to get on great! lol

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Hi Leticia (nice name!) and others

I'm glad to be here - I'm twenty-something and I'm from Auckland, New
Zealand.

I read the Exile/Milieu series 3 years ago and they had a really
profound effect on me. I was lucky to find a copy of the 'The
Pliocene Companion' that had a list of the source material Julian
used for her books (Jung, Joseph Campbell, Teilhard de Chardin etc)
and lets say my book shelf is a little heavier these days. :-)

My favourite character is Marc/Atoning Unifex.

I also like the Trillium series and the Perseus Arm series (light
hearted but fun).

High Thoughts

- Nicolette :-)

Hi guys,

Thanks for your quick response to my invites! I've sent out a few
more
so hopefully we can get a good level of correspondence up and running
pretty quickly.
A brief intro from all of us would be great, then we can get the ball
rolling!
My name's Leticia, most of my gen. info is in my profile - I'm
twenty.
I live in Sydney, Australia etc. I've been reading May's books for
about six yeas or so...I've read her Black Trillium, Sky Trillium etc
works and the nine books from the Pliocene Exile/Galactic Milieu
story
cycle but I haven't read her Perseus Arm series or anything else by
her that I recall.
It is the exile/milieu books that really affected me...after reading
the Pliocene Exile series when I was about thirteen or fourteen May's
work made such an impression on me that I actually decided to become
a
psychologist....which is why the galactic milieu series struck me so
profoundly when I read it about two years ago (by that time already
studying psych). There are dozens of areas that May touched on in
those nine books that I would love to have the opportunity to discuss
with other interested minds...I met Avalonmyst a few days ago via
another list we are both one, and that was the first time I ever
*spoke* to someone else who had ever read her books. So I've got
heaps
I'd love to talk about, from tiny trivia details about the books
themselves to queries about the psychics, mathematics, religion,
philosophy and psychology of May's works.
I look forward to speaking to y