--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>
> I am trying to eliminate some resistance at the wheel after the rudder
> bearing R&R.  For those of you that have checked, how tight are the SS
> wires connecting the helm chain/wire to your quadrant?  This should be
> controlled by two turnbuckles aft of the idler pulleys.
>
> For example, piano string tight, very tight (little to no deflection
> when pressure is applied), fairly tight (no visible sag along the
> wire/turnbuckle, tight (deflection of an inch or so), or loose (a
> visible curve, but still servicable)?

First, I am not even close to an expert: Three years ago, we removed & rebedded
the steering pedestal on our boat (while the boat was on the hard) and faced the
same dilemma. We initially made the steering too tight and the wheel didn't turn
fully.  This was easy to detect with someone on the ground. Eventually, we found
that the cables needed to be moderately tight (almost loose) and have left it
alone ever since.

Bob
>
> Thanks for the insight.
>
> Jason
>

Jason,

I agree with Bob, mine are fairly tight, little sag but without tension.

Bruce
--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28verve" <rryan14@...> wrote:
>
> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
> >
> > I am trying to eliminate some resistance at the wheel after the rudder
> > bearing R&R.  For those of you that have checked, how tight are the SS
> > wires connecting the helm chain/wire to your quadrant?  This should be
> > controlled by two turnbuckles aft of the idler pulleys.
> >
> > For example, piano string tight, very tight (little to no deflection
> > when pressure is applied), fairly tight (no visible sag along the
> > wire/turnbuckle, tight (deflection of an inch or so), or loose (a
> > visible curve, but still servicable)?
>
> First, I am not even close to an expert: Three years ago, we removed &
rebedded the steering pedestal on our boat (while the boat was on the hard) and
faced the same dilemma. We initially made the steering too tight and the wheel
didn't turn fully.  This was easy to detect with someone on the ground.
Eventually, we found that the cables needed to be moderately tight (almost
loose) and have left it alone ever since.
>
> Bob
> >
> > Thanks for the insight.
> >
> > Jason
> >
>

Jason,

As these are opposeing cables the amount of "slack" will translate to rudder
slob. When I put mine back together  I put them "tight" as you describe it which
is I can deflect the cable with little effort but they are definatly not slack.
I also played with them until I was satisfied that my wheel spoke was TDC when
the rudder was straight (out of the water) So far under sail I think I missed by
2-3 degrees but I won't know for sure til I get out in some wind. Under power it
seems pretty straight. Also you should lube the cables up good. I used a white
lithium grease.

John

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28verve" <rryan14@...> wrote:
>
> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
> >
> > I am trying to eliminate some resistance at the wheel after the rudder
> > bearing R&R.  For those of you that have checked, how tight are the SS
> > wires connecting the helm chain/wire to your quadrant?  This should be
> > controlled by two turnbuckles aft of the idler pulleys.
> >
> > For example, piano string tight, very tight (little to no deflection
> > when pressure is applied), fairly tight (no visible sag along the
> > wire/turnbuckle, tight (deflection of an inch or so), or loose (a
> > visible curve, but still servicable)?
>
> First, I am not even close to an expert: Three years ago, we removed &
rebedded the steering pedestal on our boat (while the boat was on the hard) and
faced the same dilemma. We initially made the steering too tight and the wheel
didn't turn fully.  This was easy to detect with someone on the ground.
Eventually, we found that the cables needed to be moderately tight (almost
loose) and have left it alone ever since.
>
> Bob
> >
> > Thanks for the insight.
> >
> > Jason
> >
>

Hello.  Nice to finally have a group.  I race Jazz on the Hudson river.  There
are two other J28s on the river.  Neither race.

Great boat for non spin Wednesday night.  I also like to take the wife and two
kids (1 and 3) out on weekends.  Boat handles anything under 25 knots with ease.
Love the ability to sail around with main only and still feel balanced.

My boat was in freshwater for 18 years, so it is in good shape.  Just some minor
problems every year.

I love this boat.  I can take the family out and feel comfortable with all the
controls right by me.  It goes great upwind in heavy air and does not get wet up
to 18 knots.  I also love the Yanmar 2GM.  A simple motor to maintain.

Tom Conway
Jazz #289
~~~~~_/)~~~~~_/)~~~~~

Hi, Tom.  Welcome aboard!

I'm wondering about your number.  According to J Boats, there were 71 J/28s
made.  Your boat's hull number is embedded in its Hull Identification Number. 
For example, my boat is hull #29: its HIN is TSP80029G687, where TSP is the code
for the builder (Tillotson-Pearson), 80 is TSP's code for the J/28, and 029 is
the hull number. (Then G is for the month it was made [July], 87 is the model
year, and 6 [i.e., 86] is the actual year it was made. Confusing, no?)

Do you ever take Jazz through Hell Gate and into Long Island Sound?  I sailed
for a number of years out of Raritan Bay, just south of Staten Island, and made
the trek up past NYC and into Long Island Sound a few times.  That opens up
Block Island Sound, Newport, Buzzard's Bay, out to Nantucket. Great sailing
there.

Best -- Lenny

Lenny:

I have my number.  Thanks for explaining it to me.  I have wondered about these
details.

TSP80009C686

I guess I am hull # 9, made in March 1986, model year 86.

As far as sailing, I used to race out of Raritan yacht club on a J105 in the
late 90's.  Before and after that I have raced on the Western Long Island Sound
in the IMS 40 class as a main trimmer.  Now with the new kids, I got the J28 to
cruise with them and do some non spinnaker racing in the area.  I miss Block
Island Race week and hope to get back in a few years.

I also spent a few years racing on the great Salt Lake.  That was pretty
interesting.

I keep a racing blog at http://thomasconway.net/tc/JazzBlog.asp?a=2009

I mostly write about the races I do and any incidents involving rules.

-Tom

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Tom.  Welcome aboard!
>
> I'm wondering about your number.  According to J Boats, there were 71 J/28s
made.  Your boat's hull number is embedded in its Hull Identification Number. 
For example, my boat is hull #29: its HIN is TSP80029G687, where TSP is the code
for the builder (Tillotson-Pearson), 80 is TSP's code for the J/28, and 029 is
the hull number. (Then G is for the month it was made [July], 87 is the model
year, and 6 [i.e., 86] is the actual year it was made. Confusing, no?)
>
> Do you ever take Jazz through Hell Gate and into Long Island Sound?  I sailed
for a number of years out of Raritan Bay, just south of Staten Island, and made
the trek up past NYC and into Long Island Sound a few times.  That opens up
Block Island Sound, Newport, Buzzard's Bay, out to Nantucket. Great sailing
there.
>
> Best -- Lenny
>

I had the pleasure of racing with the Raritan Yacht Club in the early to mid
1980s, mostly in a Ranger 23.  I wasn't a member but sailed out of Lockwood
Marina in Laurence Harbor.  It was a nice group of people -- but not a great
place to sail!

Best -- Lenny


> Lenny:
>
> I have my number.  Thanks for explaining it to me.  I have wondered about
these details.
>
> TSP80009C686
>
> I guess I am hull # 9, made in March 1986, model year 86.
>
> As far as sailing, I used to race out of Raritan yacht club on a J105 in the
late 90's.  Before and after that I have raced on the Western Long Island Sound
in the IMS 40 class as a main trimmer.  Now with the new kids, I got the J28 to
cruise with them and do some non spinnaker racing in the area.  I miss Block
Island Race week and hope to get back in a few years.
>
> I also spent a few years racing on the great Salt Lake.  That was pretty
interesting.
>
> I keep a racing blog at http://thomasconway.net/tc/JazzBlog.asp?a=2009
>
> I mostly write about the races I do and any incidents involving rules.
>
> -Tom

Tom, I read your Blog. It seems you do pretty well in your fleet. What kind s of
boats to you race againest.

I have yet to completely figure out how my boat trims out the best. Althought
I'm pretty sure the boat like a pretty full main up to about 15 knots of wind.
Is your's the same?

John

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@...> wrote:
>
> I had the pleasure of racing with the Raritan Yacht Club in the early to mid
1980s, mostly in a Ranger 23.  I wasn't a member but sailed out of Lockwood
Marina in Laurence Harbor.  It was a nice group of people -- but not a great
place to sail!
>
> Best -- Lenny
>
>
> > Lenny:
> >
> > I have my number.  Thanks for explaining it to me.  I have wondered about
these details.
> >
> > TSP80009C686
> >
> > I guess I am hull # 9, made in March 1986, model year 86.
> >
> > As far as sailing, I used to race out of Raritan yacht club on a J105 in the
late 90's.  Before and after that I have raced on the Western Long Island Sound
in the IMS 40 class as a main trimmer.  Now with the new kids, I got the J28 to
cruise with them and do some non spinnaker racing in the area.  I miss Block
Island Race week and hope to get back in a few years.
> >
> > I also spent a few years racing on the great Salt Lake.  That was pretty
interesting.
> >
> > I keep a racing blog at http://thomasconway.net/tc/JazzBlog.asp?a=2009
> >
> > I mostly write about the races I do and any incidents involving rules.
> >
> > -Tom
>

I race in the non-spinnaker division and do well.  In light air, a pearson 26
and Albin Cumulus 28 (sp?) are faster.  In anything over 15 knots, we will
usually be able to win a race with boatspeed alone.  Over 20 knots and no one
can keep up.

I keep a full main up to 25 knots and then reef once or twice.  I will load the
backstay to flatten it and drop the trav so only the back 15% is working.  The
140% jib will do well with that and the boat is pretty balanced.  If the water
is flat, I can sail with some luff in the jib and still make close to 6 knots.

While upwind in light air is slow, Jazz will excel going downwind.  I think the
big main is the difference over the masthead boats that beat me to the windward
mark.  Getting upwind in light stuff, I foot more than anyone and bring the trav
up and sheet out.  The key is to just keep the boat moving and not worry about
the angle.  The boat does not seem to point in the light stuff.

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "jfws88" <jfws88@...> wrote:
>
> Tom, I read your Blog. It seems you do pretty well in your fleet. What kind s
of boats to you race againest.
>
> I have yet to completely figure out how my boat trims out the best. Althought
I'm pretty sure the boat like a pretty full main up to about 15 knots of wind.
Is your's the same?
>
> John
>

This year I was cleaning my Barient 21 STC two speed self tailing winch when the
smaller spring popped overboard.  I searched for a replacment and found the
Barient parts through West Marine.  While those parts will work on the winches
on the cabin top, the primaries have a smaller paw and spring that can not be
found anywhere.

I contacted the last hope for Barient parts, AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH P/L, and
they did not have the part either.  I had to take a larger spring and work it to
fit into the smaller paw.  Please be sure not to lose those small paws as I was
unable to find any replacements.  I can bend a spring, but I can not machine a
paw, so I was lucky I did not lose the paw.

Overall, the winches were in good shape inside.

Thanks Tom, I guess I have the boat figured out a little better than I thought.
I can't get any pointing in light air either, but over 15 knots we are tough to
beat. And I use a similar set-up.
On mondays my competition is a tarton ten and a C&C 35. Usually the boat that
makes the fewest mistakes wins. I won last night. On wednesdays I just can't
beat an evelyn 26 or a blackwatch 37.

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "thconway1" <actionman@...> wrote:
>
> I race in the non-spinnaker division and do well.  In light air, a pearson 26
and Albin Cumulus 28 (sp?) are faster.  In anything over 15 knots, we will
usually be able to win a race with boatspeed alone.  Over 20 knots and no one
can keep up.
>
> I keep a full main up to 25 knots and then reef once or twice.  I will load
the backstay to flatten it and drop the trav so only the back 15% is working. 
The 140% jib will do well with that and the boat is pretty balanced.  If the
water is flat, I can sail with some luff in the jib and still make close to 6
knots.
>
> While upwind in light air is slow, Jazz will excel going downwind.  I think
the big main is the difference over the masthead boats that beat me to the
windward mark.  Getting upwind in light stuff, I foot more than anyone and bring
the trav up and sheet out.  The key is to just keep the boat moving and not
worry about the angle.  The boat does not seem to point in the light stuff.
>
> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "jfws88" <jfws88@> wrote:
> >
> > Tom, I read your Blog. It seems you do pretty well in your fleet. What kind
s of boats to you race againest.
> >
> > I have yet to completely figure out how my boat trims out the best.
Althought I'm pretty sure the boat like a pretty full main up to about 15 knots
of wind. Is your's the same?
> >
> > John
> >
>

Good information on tuning.  Has anyone from the group seen or done a Polar
Diagram for a J28?

JBoats has kindly listed this web site on its homepage under "J/Classes &
Owners."  Hopefully, that will bring a few folks our way over the coming years.

"Ruffian" got its first coat of bottom paint today.  If the weather cooperates,
it will get the second on Saturday or Sunday and kiss cold Maine salt water on
Tuesday.  About half of the boats in Rockland have been launched so far, half to
go.  It's a short sailing season here, but glorious.

Lenny

Regarding tuning, I'found that using tuning guides from a J30 give pretty good
results. The rigs and performance chactoristics are very similar of the two
boats in fact I fly a used j30 spinnaker. Attached is the UK version but there
are others. I havn't found a source of the polars that I could read but I bet
it's because I havn't looked hard enough. The J30 class site is a good source of
info.

Lenny, good news on the link from J boats. I also sent them an email request for
the link.

Somtime this weekend I'll post a letter I received from Rod Johnston regarding
my PHRF rateing appeal a couple of years ago.

As far as I'm concerned they're a great bunch of folks to deal with.

http://www.ukhalsey.com/sails/onedesign/j30/J30Tuning.pdf

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@...> wrote:
>
> Good information on tuning.  Has anyone from the group seen or done a Polar
Diagram for a J28?
>

We had a good sail yesterday in the Chesapeake, a front blew through
and brought us NW winds.  Conditions were 15-18knts, with gusting to
22-23.

I have to admit, I prefer to sail more upright, with moderate heel.  I
don¡¦t mind the heeling in general, but what unsettles me is in the
gusts when the boats feels way overpowered and doesn¡¦t *seem* to want
to stiffen up.  I am comfortable up to about 15 degrees of heel, but
when we keep going, I tend to bail out, either dropping the traveler
or heading up (or both).  This probably has a lot to do with my
general lack of heavy air sailing experience.  But, I have sailed on
my folks J/34c in similar conditions¡Kwhich seems so much stiffer and
better able to stand up to the gusts.  Where I on the /28 tend to heel
more and maintain speed, the /34c puts her shoulder down and
accelerates, any increased heeling angle happens much slower.

Everything I read tells me these boats  should be good to 15-20knts
apparent upwind with a full main and, I suppose either a full or
partial genoa (depending on size).  I have a newer North full batten
main and 145% #1, which I can reasonably reef down to 110-120%

So I have a multiple stream of consciousness question:

Those of you that sail your /28s in heavy air, what sailplan are you
using and how are you trimming out.  For example, how far do you pull
the backstay down¡Kto the stern rail pulpit?  Are you vang sheeting the
main, or dumping the mainsheet in gusts, or something entirely
different?  For example, the 34c with, 2:1 admirals cup mainsheet
arrangement, can get the boom below perpendicular, say 15-20 degrees,
to the mast to really flatten the main¡K.is this even possible with our
6:1 tackle on the 28?  At what wind speeds are you reefing, and what
sail gets reefed first?  Is there a heel angle that the boat really
stiffens up (that maybe I haven¡¦t gotten to yet ƒº).  What size genoa
are you setting in these conditions¡K.it is necessary to keep the
center of effort forward, correct?

Long winded, sorry!  I appreciate any feedback.

Jason

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>
> We had a good sail yesterday in the Chesapeake, a front blew through
> and brought us NW winds.  Conditions were 15-18knts, with gusting to
> 22-23.
>
> I have to admit, I prefer to sail more upright, with moderate heel.  I
> don¡¦t mind the heeling in general, but what unsettles me is in the
> gusts when the boats feels way overpowered and doesn¡¦t *seem* to want
> to stiffen up.  I am comfortable up to about 15 degrees of heel, but
> when we keep going, I tend to bail out, either dropping the traveler
> or heading up (or both).  This probably has a lot to do with my
> general lack of heavy air sailing experience.  But, I have sailed on
> my folks J/34c in similar conditions¡Kwhich seems so much stiffer and
> better able to stand up to the gusts.  Where I on the /28 tend to heel
> more and maintain speed, the /34c puts her shoulder down and
> accelerates, any increased heeling angle happens much slower.
>
> Everything I read tells me these boats  should be good to 15-20knts
> apparent upwind with a full main and, I suppose either a full or
> partial genoa (depending on size).  I have a newer North full batten
> main and 145% #1, which I can reasonably reef down to 110-120%
>
> So I have a multiple stream of consciousness question:
>
> Those of you that sail your /28s in heavy air, what sailplan are you
> using and how are you trimming out.  For example, how far do you pull
> the backstay down¡Kto the stern rail pulpit?  Are you vang sheeting the
> main, or dumping the mainsheet in gusts, or something entirely
> different?  For example, the 34c with, 2:1 admirals cup mainsheet
> arrangement, can get the boom below perpendicular, say 15-20 degrees,
> to the mast to really flatten the main¡K.is this even possible with our
> 6:1 tackle on the 28?  At what wind speeds are you reefing, and what
> sail gets reefed first?  Is there a heel angle that the boat really
> stiffens up (that maybe I haven¡¦t gotten to yet ƒº).  What size genoa
> are you setting in these conditions¡K.it is necessary to keep the
> center of effort forward, correct?
>
> Long winded, sorry!  I appreciate any feedback.
>
> Jason
>

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>
> We had a good sail yesterday in the Chesapeake, a front blew through
> and brought us NW winds.  Conditions were 15-18knts, with gusting to
> 22-23.
>
> I have to admit, I prefer to sail more upright, with moderate heel.  I
> don¡¦t mind the heeling in general, but what unsettles me is in the
> gusts when the boats feels way overpowered and doesn¡¦t *seem* to want
> to stiffen up.  I am comfortable up to about 15 degrees of heel, but
> when we keep going, I tend to bail out, either dropping the traveler
> or heading up (or both).  This probably has a lot to do with my
> general lack of heavy air sailing experience.  But, I have sailed on
> my folks J/34c in similar conditions¡Kwhich seems so much stiffer and
> better able to stand up to the gusts.  Where I on the /28 tend to heel
> more and maintain speed, the /34c puts her shoulder down and
> accelerates, any increased heeling angle happens much slower.
>
> Everything I read tells me these boats  should be good to 15-20knts
> apparent upwind with a full main and, I suppose either a full or
> partial genoa (depending on size).  I have a newer North full batten
> main and 145% #1, which I can reasonably reef down to 110-120%
>
> So I have a multiple stream of consciousness question:
>
> Those of you that sail your /28s in heavy air, what sailplan are you
> using and how are you trimming out.  For example, how far do you pull
> the backstay down¡Kto the stern rail pulpit?  Are you vang sheeting the
> main, or dumping the mainsheet in gusts, or something entirely
> different?  For example, the 34c with, 2:1 admirals cup mainsheet
> arrangement, can get the boom below perpendicular, say 15-20 degrees,
> to the mast to really flatten the main¡K.is this even possible with our
> 6:1 tackle on the 28?  At what wind speeds are you reefing, and what
> sail gets reefed first?  Is there a heel angle that the boat really
> stiffens up (that maybe I haven¡¦t gotten to yet ƒº).  What size genoa
> are you setting in these conditions¡K.it is necessary to keep the
> center of effort forward, correct?
>
> Long winded, sorry!  I appreciate any feedback.
>
> Jason
>

Hi Jason,

That sounds like great conditions for this boat. I would expect you've had a
smoother ride on the 34c, Which by the way will be my next boat.

You didn't mention the foot, cunningham/main halyard or traveller. As the main
is the primary engine you need to crank the tension up on the halyard and foot
and be able to play the traveller when the wind gets over 20. I have pretty good
adjusment on my traveler and that really helps keeping the boat on it feet. I do
vang sheet but I haven't played the backstay to much mostly because I'm still
experimenting with it. Yes I've been sailing my j28 for 6 years now and still
experimenting.

As Tom mentioned don't be afraid to let the luff of the main luff a bit the back
of the sail is doing the work.

With a 110% jib, and a nice tight main you should be able to sail 20-25 knots
with 5-8 degrees of weather helm and 20 degrees of heal. Just keep the toe rail
out the water.

Also and this pretty important. If you have rail meat on the boat the weight
needs to be up by the mast, not in the cockpit. This boat is already a bit ass
heavy and needs weight forward to balance out and point better. Other wise it
feels (and sounds) like you're dragging the ass of the boat around.

I moved my batteries from the starboard lazertte to the storage ae underthe 
starboard bunk for that reason.

How the rudder come out?

John

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>
> We had a good sail yesterday in the Chesapeake, a front blew through
> and brought us NW winds.  Conditions were 15-18knts, with gusting to
> 22-23.
>
> I have to admit, I prefer to sail more upright, with moderate heel.  I
> don¡¦t mind the heeling in general, but what unsettles me is in the
> gusts when the boats feels way overpowered and doesn¡¦t *seem* to want
> to stiffen up.  I am comfortable up to about 15 degrees of heel, but
> when we keep going, I tend to bail out, either dropping the traveler
> or heading up (or both).  This probably has a lot to do with my
> general lack of heavy air sailing experience.  But, I have sailed on
> my folks J/34c in similar conditions¡Kwhich seems so much stiffer and
> better able to stand up to the gusts.  Where I on the /28 tend to heel
> more and maintain speed, the /34c puts her shoulder down and
> accelerates, any increased heeling angle happens much slower.
>
> Everything I read tells me these boats  should be good to 15-20knts
> apparent upwind with a full main and, I suppose either a full or
> partial genoa (depending on size).  I have a newer North full batten
> main and 145% #1, which I can reasonably reef down to 110-120%
>
> So I have a multiple stream of consciousness question:
>
> Those of you that sail your /28s in heavy air, what sailplan are you
> using and how are you trimming out.  For example, how far do you pull
> the backstay down¡Kto the stern rail pulpit?  Are you vang sheeting the
> main, or dumping the mainsheet in gusts, or something entirely
> different?  For example, the 34c with, 2:1 admirals cup mainsheet
> arrangement, can get the boom below perpendicular, say 15-20 degrees,
> to the mast to really flatten the main¡K.is this even possible with our
> 6:1 tackle on the 28?  At what wind speeds are you reefing, and what
> sail gets reefed first?  Is there a heel angle that the boat really
> stiffens up (that maybe I haven¡¦t gotten to yet ƒº).  What size genoa
> are you setting in these conditions¡K.it is necessary to keep the
> center of effort forward, correct?
>
> Long winded, sorry!  I appreciate any feedback.
>
> Jason
>

John, thanks for the note.  And, if anyone else can share their heavy
air experience or trim, that would be great!

Yes, the 34c is a fast, stiff, boat.  I've sailed on it quite
frequently in wind 20+...but it is 30-40% heavier and has a big chunk
of lead down low (the UFO bulb).  Admittedly, this may be a source of
my discomfort, as I am conditioned to the 34c responses over the
course of several years sailing with my folks before I got my boat,
which feels more tender to me.  Reality is, I need to get comfortable
on my /28....!

I keep the halyard, cunningham and outhaul on fairly hard in anything
over 15knts.  I will also vang the boom down and set the backstay so
it is ~12 inches off the stern pulpit.  I'd say the backstay is the
second control I will adjust to decrease camber in the main after the
traveller goes down to leeward to change angle of attack on the main.
I do have an Harken 4:1 traveller, which is really a necessary upgrade
to the OEM unit.

So, John, in your experience she will hit about 20 degrees of heel and
then lock in when the main is flattened in a breeze?  Should I expect
to really be playing the sheet a bunch?  What is your average
boatspeed in these condition?  This is really where a polar diagram
would be handy.  I know this was mentioned the day....do we have
enough members in our group to go to J-boats and see if they would
re-create a polar, if one doesn't exist?

On the weight distribution, I don't sail with rail meat, but I do know
this boat is heavy in the rear.  At this point, my sink drain is
basically at the static waterline.  I need to put a seacock on that
overboard drain sometime in the near future.  I may eventually try to
do the same and relocate the house bank batteries (180lbs) forward,
but not sure I have room in the starboard settee due to A/C ducting.

Rudder seems to be doing OK.  I still need to loosen the steering
cables a bit and do some overal maintenance to the steering gear.  At
this time of year, I really want to be sailing more than working,
however!

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:47 PM, jfws88<jfws88@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> That sounds like great conditions for this boat. I would expect you've had a
> smoother ride on the 34c, Which by the way will be my next boat.
>
> You didn't mention the foot, cunningham/main halyard or traveller. As the
> main is the primary engine you need to crank the tension up on the halyard
> and foot and be able to play the traveller when the wind gets over 20. I
> have pretty good adjusment on my traveler and that really helps keeping the
> boat on it feet. I do vang sheet but I haven't played the backstay to much
> mostly because I'm still experimenting with it. Yes I've been sailing my j28
> for 6 years now and still experimenting.
>
> As Tom mentioned don't be afraid to let the luff of the main luff a bit the
> back of the sail is doing the work.
>
> With a 110% jib, and a nice tight main you should be able to sail 20-25
> knots with 5-8 degrees of weather helm and 20 degrees of heal. Just keep the
> toe rail out the water.
>
> Also and this pretty important. If you have rail meat on the boat the weight
> needs to be up by the mast, not in the cockpit. This boat is already a bit
> ass heavy and needs weight forward to balance out and point better. Other
> wise it feels (and sounds) like you're dragging the ass of the boat around.
>
> I moved my batteries from the starboard lazertte to the storage ae underthe
> starboard bunk for that reason.
>
> How the rudder come out?
>
> John
>
> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>>
>> We had a good sail yesterday in the Chesapeake, a front blew through
>> and brought us NW winds. Conditions were 15-18knts, with gusting to
>> 22-23.
>>
>> I have to admit, I prefer to sail more upright, with moderate heel. I
>> don¡¦t mind the heeling in general, but what unsettles me is in the
>> gusts when the boats feels way overpowered and doesn¡¦t *seem* to want
>> to stiffen up. I am comfortable up to about 15 degrees of heel, but
>> when we keep going, I tend to bail out, either dropping the traveler
>> or heading up (or both). This probably has a lot to do with my
>> general lack of heavy air sailing experience. But, I have sailed on
>> my folks J/34c in similar conditions¡Kwhich seems so much stiffer and
>> better able to stand up to the gusts. Where I on the /28 tend to heel
>> more and maintain speed, the /34c puts her shoulder down and
>> accelerates, any increased heeling angle happens much slower.
>>
>> Everything I read tells me these boats should be good to 15-20knts
>> apparent upwind with a full main and, I suppose either a full or
>> partial genoa (depending on size). I have a newer North full batten
>> main and 145% #1, which I can reasonably reef down to 110-120%
>>
>> So I have a multiple stream of consciousness question:
>>
>> Those of you that sail your /28s in heavy air, what sailplan are you
>> using and how are you trimming out. For example, how far do you pull
>> the backstay down¡Kto the stern rail pulpit? Are you vang sheeting the
>> main, or dumping the mainsheet in gusts, or something entirely
>> different? For example, the 34c with, 2:1 admirals cup mainsheet
>> arrangement, can get the boom below perpendicular, say 15-20 degrees,
>> to the mast to really flatten the main¡K.is this even possible with our
>> 6:1 tackle on the 28? At what wind speeds are you reefing, and what
>> sail gets reefed first? Is there a heel angle that the boat really
>> stiffens up (that maybe I haven¡¦t gotten to yet ƒº). What size genoa
>> are you setting in these conditions¡K.it is necessary to keep the
>> center of effort forward, correct?
>>
>> Long winded, sorry! I appreciate any feedback.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>
>

Jason:  I have never encountered the term "vang sheeting" before, but I take it
to mean putting the vang on pretty hard while playing the main sheet to spill
wind in the gusts.

If that's what you are doing, it certainly will contribute to excessive heel
when the wind pipes up.  The vang keeps the top part of the mainsail from
twisting off, and the gusts will thus act hard against it.  Because the top of
the sail is further from your waterline than the lower part of the sail, the
lever arm that the force acting on it has is greater -- hence more torque
(torque = force x distance), which gives you more heeling.

So, use little or no vang if you are trying to keep the boat on her feet.

My first 20 years of sailing were in dinghies, where you learn pretty quickly
how to avoid excess heel because things can get very wet in a hurry!  Righting a
swamped boat in lots of wind and sea can be NOT fun. ;-)

Lenny

I think this boat does great in 15-25 upwind full sail.  I assume these pointers
are for racing, so you need a main and jib together.

I definitely pull the backstay to max.  This will induce mast bend and help
flatten the main.  I do not use vang sheeting.  I will snug the vang when
sheeted in, but nothing beyond that.  My boom is flexible enough that it will
bend with too much tension on the vang.

I sail with the main sheet on hard and trav down.  Only the back of the sail
will work in this alignment.  When a puff comes in, I'll feather the boat so the
jib gets light and may even have a little luff.  This is just for the 20-30
seconds it takes for the puff  to blow through.

If needed, I will ease the sheet and leave it out.  I do want to depower the top
of the main, so I will not rely on the vang to keep the sail from twisting off
up top.  I prefer to lose the top when overpowered.

Outhaul and Cunningham are maxed in this condition.

If I have to, letting the main completely lose its power may be necessary.  I
find that if I have the trav down and I am still overpowered, there is little
else the main can do with vang sheeting.  It is barely staying full with the
trav down.

Unless I am in big waves, feathering will work.  If the waves are stopping us, I
will be forced to occasionally dump the main via the sheet and let the jib power
us through waves.  I move the jib lead back to let the top of that sail twist
off as well.

I have not had to think about speed in these conditions much since I will
outpace any racing boat in the big breeze.  I was even over the line once in a
25 knot breeze and caught back up to everyone in less than 2 miles.

I think there is a point around 20-25 true where things need to get looser
instead of tighter.  The backstay should stay tight, but I will let the sails
twist off quite a bit to lose extra power.  I doubt this is a best practice, but
with the gear in mind, I am trying to avoid overloading the boat.

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>
> Lenny,
> Yes, you interpreted vang sheeting correctly.  Using this technique in
> theory allows the main to remain flattened/depowered while easing the
> mainsheet to decrease the angle of attack (past what the traveller can
> provide) in gusts.  Using the vang + heavily eased mainsheet effectively
> "twists off' the top of the leech in the same way easing the sheet on its
> own.  My understanding is that it makes it easier on the mainsheet trimmer,
> rather than have to haul against the sheet in heavy air to (re)flatten the
> main.  This may be a poor explaination....does it makes sense?
>
> I have a reference from J-Boats discussing heavy air sailing:
> "Upwind in heavy air, sail under the main alone, with maximum mast bend,
> vang on hard, flattened main with open leech, boom over leeward  edge of
> cockpit.  In this trim, you can maintain  6.5+ knots to windward without
> getting the rail under by 'feathering' up or easing the main instantly in
> the puffs."
>
> Can anyone describe the shape of 'flattened main with open leech"?  This is
> a bit confusing to me as I always though flattening the main by hauling in
> the mainsheet 'closed' the leech, easing the main created twist and opened
> the leech.
>
> This is an interesting discussion, as we have John and myself using the vang
> sheeting technique and Lenny's dinghy experience advocating a different trim
> process.  Let's hear from others in the group, if possible.
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Lenny Reich <lsreich@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Jason: I have never encountered the term "vang sheeting" before, but I take
> > it to mean putting the vang on pretty hard while playing the main sheet to
> > spill wind in the gusts.
> >
> > If that's what you are doing, it certainly will contribute to excessive
> > heel when the wind pipes up. The vang keeps the top part of the mainsail
> > from twisting off, and the gusts will thus act hard against it. Because the
> > top of the sail is further from your waterline than the lower part of the
> > sail, the lever arm that the force acting on it has is greater -- hence more
> > torque (torque = force x distance), which gives you more heeling.
> >
> > So, use little or no vang if you are trying to keep the boat on her feet.
> >
> > My first 20 years of sailing were in dinghies, where you learn pretty
> > quickly how to avoid excess heel because things can get very wet in a hurry!
> > Righting a swamped boat in lots of wind and sea can be NOT fun. ;-)
> >
> > Lenny
> >
> >
> >
>

Tom sums up how to use vang sheeting and yes under heavy air you can do some
damage if your not careful.
I use vang sheeting more for close and beam reaching where you want the a flat
but somewhat powerfull sail. Over 25 knot you best have someone ready to release
it if the boat rounds up.

On really flatening the main, My boat seems to get sluggish and has no feel when
I flatten it down. But I'havn't been out in wind over 18 this year yet. I do
play the traveller a lot. I posted pic's of my set-up.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Does anyone reef the main in heavy air?  How does the boat sail with a reefed
main and the jib at about 125%?  I guess that might give lee helm under some
circumstances but probably not hard on the wind.

"Ruffian" is set for launch on Thursday.

Lenny

Lenny, I've reefed twice in 6 years. The first time was the first year to see
how it worked and the second, 2 years ago just prior to a race that was blowing
pretty good. Both times I shook it out and sailed fine. I did sail around block
island one day in 30 knots with just the full main up. Great run when we rounded
the southern tip back to new harbor in a run. It's really cool to see the
rollers a couple of feet above the deck just before they pick the boat up and
send you down the wave

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone reef the main in heavy air?  How does the boat sail with a reefed
main and the jib at about 125%?  I guess that might give lee helm under some
circumstances but probably not hard on the wind.
>
> "Ruffian" is set for launch on Thursday.
>
> Lenny
>

I sent asked about J28 polars on the JBoat site Saturday. No response yet.

Last year was my first year racing my J28, but I did the same as others have
described, lots of backstay, traveler down, no vang, and ease the main sheet for
gusts.  I have done a double reef when its really blowing.  Two weeks ago it was
blowing between 20 and 25 with gusts and I had only one crew member with limited
experience.  Decided to reef the main at the first point to keep the boat
upright and put the Jib out to about 120%.  The boat sailed great, no weather
helm.  We did very well on the first leg (a beat) that night.  We pulled the
reefs as the wind we head down to the second mark and the wind got a little
lighter.  Think I will play with that again in similar conditions.

I added a tweeker on the main sheet the middle of last year.  Light blocks and
line on the first main sheet run.  Nice for dumping a little air in a gust and
getting a little more tension on the main when you need it. I will get a picture
of the set up.

Bruce

I think my forestay may be too loose.  We were out today in 8-12 knts;
sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig.  This happened
when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal.  It did not occur last
year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
about.  The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
an effect with our fractional rigs.

At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
tell with the sail furled).  I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
in circle.  Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
(30-35 deg apparent)

So....is the forestay too lose?  I know the majority of the forestay
tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
if there is a turnbuckle under the furler?  I am a little worried
about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.

Insight appreciated.  I am a real novice with rig tuning.  I plan to
read up on it more tonight.  We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
tips we discussed earlier this week.

Thanks!

Jason

Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed
roller furling.  I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even
with backstay adjuster all the way off.  I am not sure if this is correct or how
much initial tension should be on the backstay.

Bruce

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
>
> I think my forestay may be too loose.  We were out today in 8-12 knts;
> sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
> oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig.  This happened
> when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal.  It did not occur last
> year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
> about.  The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
> an effect with our fractional rigs.
>
> At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
> tell with the sail furled).  I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
> in circle.  Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
> (30-35 deg apparent)
>
> So....is the forestay too lose?  I know the majority of the forestay
> tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
> if there is a turnbuckle under the furler?  I am a little worried
> about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
>
> Insight appreciated.  I am a real novice with rig tuning.  I plan to
> read up on it more tonight.  We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
> tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
> tips we discussed earlier this week.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jason
>

The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay.  Think about how tensioning
the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is
opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a
torque on the mast and bending it.  That additional forward force is in the form
of higher tension on the forestay.  Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer
in me.  Lenny

--- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@...> wrote:
>
> Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed
roller furling.  I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even
with backstay adjuster all the way off.  I am not sure if this is correct or how
much initial tension should be on the backstay.
>
> Bruce
>
> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
> >
> > I think my forestay may be too loose.  We were out today in 8-12 knts;
> > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
> > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig.  This happened
> > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal.  It did not occur last
> > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
> > about.  The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
> > an effect with our fractional rigs.
> >
> > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
> > tell with the sail furled).  I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
> > in circle.  Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
> > (30-35 deg apparent)
> >
> > So....is the forestay too lose?  I know the majority of the forestay
> > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
> > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler?  I am a little worried
> > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
> >
> > Insight appreciated.  I am a real novice with rig tuning.  I plan to
> > read up on it more tonight.  We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
> > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
> > tips we discussed earlier this week.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Jason
> >
>