hi all,

just on three days ago I completed my latest master work, my baby.

Ashleigh was born at 1604 hrs aust eastern summer time, natural
delivery, 11 lbs 5 oz, or for those who speak in metric, 5.15kg. My
partner Michael and son Nathaniel were both there to support me
throughout the delivery, and, still love me inspite of all the
sceaming.

We came home yesterday, and are settleing in to the new routines. Both
Dad and big brother are besotted with the little one. I am still a
little shattered after it all. When I have all the bits back up on my
PC I will post some photos to share and show off.

Cheers

Deb
(Oonagh)
+1 has escaped :o)


Oonaghs Own
http;//oonagh.actewagl.net.au

Congrats all around! What a joy for you and your family! And speaking as a mom,
you have my sympathies on the 11 pound part.... :)

   Get some rest!

   Fearga

Oonagh ONeill <oonaghme@...> wrote:
   hi all,

just on three days ago I completed my latest master work, my baby.

Ashleigh was born at 1604 hrs aust eastern summer time, natural
delivery, 11 lbs 5 oz, or for those who speak in metric, 5.15kg. My
partner Michael and son Nathaniel were both there to support me
throughout the delivery, and, still love me inspite of all the
sceaming.

We came home yesterday, and are settleing in to the new routines. Both
Dad and big brother are besotted with the little one. I am still a
little shattered after it all. When I have all the bits back up on my
PC I will post some photos to share and show off.

Cheers

Deb
(Oonagh)
+1 has escaped :o)


Oonaghs Own
http;//oonagh.actewagl.net.au









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Congratulations!!
Wishing the best of health to both of you!

Though I have not experienced birthing I sympathize the 11lbs 5oz.
My nephew was 10lbs. 7oz. and his mom was only 5'. 24hrs of labor. Doctor
did a C-section after her mother threatened to nail the Doc's genitals to
the wall if he didn't do something ASAP.
Lyse

THANK YOU for these wonderful websites. So my next question is. do I just cut
out a
rectangle of cloth for it? what my height for the width by my height and a half
for the
depth?
-arianna

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Catherine Rogers-Cook
<Catherine@C...> wrote:
>
> Cara Arianna,
>
>   The mantello is more like a big blanket than a standard cloak.  Most often
it was just
held around the body, often drawn up over the head, but it could also be clasped
with a
brooch at the neck.
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Congratulations on your new baby, rest, relax... you'll be making baby garb soon
enough!
lol!
really, congratulations.
arianna

I believe that mantelli were most often half circles, or elongated half circles.
Spanish 16th century mantles (manto/mantos) were semicircular and they look
almost identical.  Juan de Alcega's "Libro de Geometria" published in 1589 has
patterns for elongated semicircular mantles.  He says " To cut this mantle of
silk, first throw the fabric over the head of the lady for whom it is intended 
and mark the desired length [head to ankle] with a piece of soap.  Then fold the
fabric crosswise according to the length marked."

   The mantles he shows are about 100 inches long and 71 to 84 inches wide a the
center back.  The mantles are cut with lots of strange seaming where we would
not usually put a seam, in order to conserve fabric.

   I've cut mantles out of 60 inch wide fabric that are a true semicircle  (120
inches long) and they work very well!  Make sure the fabric you use is pretty
soft or the mantello will not drape well.  I've used fine wool and rayon
challis, both of which worked very well.

   Good luck!

   PS I got a better view of the Fra Carnevale lady whose green mantello I
thought had been clasped with a brooch. In fact it is tucked into the neckline
of her gown in order to leave her hands free.

   Katharine

Arianna Steffia dOvste <stephehawk@...> wrote:
   THANK YOU for these wonderful websites. So my next question is. do I just cut
out a
rectangle of cloth for it? what my height for the width by my height and a half
for the
depth?
-arianna

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Catherine Rogers-Cook
<Catherine@C...> wrote:
>
> Cara Arianna,
>
>   The mantello is more like a big blanket than a standard cloak.  Most often
it was just
held around the body, often drawn up over the head, but it could also be clasped
with a
brooch at the neck.
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh thanks again!
would you send me the link?
-arianna
>   PS I got a better view of the Fra Carnevale lady whose green mantello I
thought had
been clasped with a brooch. In fact it is tucked into the neckline of her gown
in order to
leave her hands free.
>
>   Katharine
>

Congratulations on your little girl --- all that hard work was worth
it, right?   Hope you'll be able to post pictures real soon!

I have visited your website many times and admired your handiwork
tremendously.  Can't wait to see your latest "creation."

Take care, rest up and make sure you take advantage of everyone's
offers to "help out"!

Laurie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oonagh ONeill" <oonaghme@...>
To: <Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 7:35 AM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] latest master work


> hi all,
>
> just on three days ago I completed my latest master work, my baby.
>
> Ashleigh was born at 1604 hrs aust eastern summer time, natural
> delivery, 11 lbs 5 oz, or for those who speak in metric, 5.15kg. My
> partner Michael and son Nathaniel were both there to support me
> throughout the delivery, and, still love me inspite of all the
> sceaming.

Oh my! That's a BIG baby!

I'd have been screaming too. Yowch.

Congratulations!!!

Laurensa

----- Original Message -----
From: "otsisto" <otsisto@...>
To: <Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] latest master work


> Congratulations!!
> Wishing the best of health to both of you!
>
> Though I have not experienced birthing I sympathize the 11lbs 5oz.
> My nephew was 10lbs. 7oz. and his mom was only 5'. 24hrs of labor. Doctor
> did a C-section after her mother threatened to nail the Doc's genitals to
> the wall if he didn't do something ASAP.

Much like my mother with my little sister's first child (Donna is TINY). He
said, after 36 hours of labor, "Well, we have to do what's best for the
baby" and my mom said, fire in her eyes, "That's MY baby in that bed and YOU
WILL HELP HER!"

Aren't moms grand?

Laurensa
> Lyse
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Umm...
I know that Oonagh didn't post his whole name in her note, but Ashleigh
Louis Neill Lane is a boy. :-)

Have a great day!

ailith

----- Original Message -----
From: "theirmom42002" <lherr@...>
To: <Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:28 PM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Oonagh's masterpiece


> Congratulations on your little girl --- all that hard work was worth
> it, right?   Hope you'll be able to post pictures real soon!
>
> I have visited your website many times and admired your handiwork
> tremendously.  Can't wait to see your latest "creation."
>
> Take care, rest up and make sure you take advantage of everyone's
> offers to "help out"!
>
> Laurie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Congrats to the momma, papa, big brother & little one! Enjoy this
special time.
Peggy

http://www.bluffton.edu/womenartists/ch3(16-17c)/sofonisba_double_portrait.j
pg

Also
http://www.bluffton.edu/womenartists/ch3(16-17c)/sofonisba_sister.jpg

Lyse

They are beautiful!  The artist is Sofonisba Anguissola who was born in Cremona
(part of the region of Lombardy, about 160 miles north and west of Venice) in
1530, She died in Palermo in 1625
   An abstract of her biography says she was an Italian portrait painter, one of
six painter sisters of a noble family from Cremona. She was the first woman
artist to achieve international renown, being called to Spain by Philip II and
visited by Van Dyck in Genoa in 1623, when she was in her nineties. Her
self-portraits and portraits of her family are considered her finest works; they
are somewhat stiff, but can have great charm.

   The first image is of an unknown sitter (and her son and dog) and its date is
unknown as well.

   Second portrait is of Minerva, the artist’s sister, who died in 1564 Some date
the painting to 1599 and others to 1564 after her sister had died.

   Here is a self portrait painted in around the same time.
   http://www.brera.beniculturali.it/archivio/fotogrande.php

   Here’s a link to her page at the Art Renewal Center
   http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/art.asp?aid=2905

   Here is a link to one of her most striking portraits
   http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/gg3352_061b.jpg

   I like her work a lot!

   Katharine

otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:
   http://www.bluffton.edu/womenartists/ch3(16-17c)/sofonisba_double_portrait.j
pg

Also
http://www.bluffton.edu/womenartists/ch3(16-17c)/sofonisba_sister.jpg

Lyse




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I found some material that is blue and dull mustard that is similar to this
dress. the lines are blue and the background is a blend.
I am thinking if I get around to it I might make a similar dress. I had
posted on another list the question of; if you were to make this dress but
in the colors I mention above, what colors would the embroidery on the
camicia be?
Lyse

-----Original Message-----
   Here is a link to one of her most striking portraits
   http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/gg3352_061b.jpg

   I like her work a lot!

   Katharine

Thank you all for your wonderful wishes for our family, and our
latest addition.  I had a very long day yesterday with one thing and
another.

I forgot to mention that Ashleigh is NOT going to be wearing any
little gowns, Ashleigh is a little boy.  During pregnancy we had
conflicting opinions via ultra sound as to gender.  So I gave up and
decided that birth was the only true method of determining such
things.

He was 56.5 cm long and head circumferance of 38 cm.  The only pain
assistance they would give me was gas.  And, YES, I did ask for
something more but they kept putting me off.  Not happy with that
really.  I was actually begging more than asking for aditional pain
assistance, Not particularly dignified.

sorry for the confusion.  Thanks Ailith for pointing this out.  I am
having an interesting day with it all at the moment.

cheers

Deb
(Oonagh)

Oonaghs Own
http://oonagh.actewagl.net.au


- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Oonagh ONeill"
<oonaghme@b...> wrote:
>
> hi all,
>
> just on three days ago I completed my latest master work, my baby.
>
> Ashleigh was born at 1604 hrs aust eastern summer time, natural
> delivery, 11 lbs 5 oz, or for those who speak in metric, 5.15kg. My
> partner Michael and son Nathaniel were both there to support me
> throughout the delivery, and, still love me inspite of all the
> sceaming.
>
> We came home yesterday, and are settleing in to the new routines.
Both
> Dad and big brother are besotted with the little one. I am still a
> little shattered after it all. When I have all the bits back up on
my
> PC I will post some photos to share and show off.
>
> Cheers
>
> Deb
> (Oonagh)
> +1 has escaped :o)
>
>
> Oonaghs Own
> http;//oonagh.actewagl.net.au
>

I'd go with a soft beige-browinish-gold color.  Sounds like it could make a
gorgeous gown!

   Katharine

otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:
   I found some material that is blue and dull mustard that is similar to this
dress. the lines are blue and the background is a blend.
I am thinking if I get around to it I might make a similar dress. I had
posted on another list the question of; if you were to make this dress but
in the colors I mention above, what colors would the embroidery on the
camicia be?
Lyse

-----Original Message-----
   Here is a link to one of her most striking portraits
   http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/gg3352_061b.jpg

   I like her work a lot!

   Katharine





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Arianna
Steffia dOvste <stephehawk@y...> asked:

> So my next question is do I just cut out a
> rectangle of cloth for it? what my height for the width by my
height and a half for the depth?

> and Catherine Rogers-Cook <Catherine@C...> answered:
>
> I believe that mantelli were most often half circles, or elongated
half circles.  Spanish 16th century mantles (manto/mantos) were
semicircular and they look almost identical
>
>   I've cut mantles out of 60 inch wide fabric that are a true
semicircle  (120 inches long) and they work very well!  Make sure
the fabric you use is pretty soft or the mantello will not drape
well.  I've used fine wool and rayon challis, both of which worked
very well.
>
>
I made two like this (60 inch wide fabric cut in a semicircle, light
wool, wool challis, but lined for warmth) for my daughter and son-in-
law this Pennsic past, and while I didn't think I would like them
(they weren't sure, either) and thought they would slip off the
shoulders, once they wore them they found them surprisingly easy to
manipulate, held in place at the neck with a brooch or clasp.
(Might even finish the one I cut out for myself, now :~)

Diane
Maison de Lune

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Satine De La
Courcel" <LadySAtineDeLaCourcel@h...> wrote:
>
> And I know we have a Few
> Goddesses here... me for one whom else is a goddess????
>
> Satine
>
Apparently, I'm working on it from the bottom up . . . . really does
appear as if one is wearing underpinnings, n'est-ce pas?

Diane
Maison de Lune

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Oonagh ONeill"
<oonaghme@b...> wrote:
>
> just on three days ago I completed my latest master work, my baby.
>
And congrats and best wishes to Oonagh and her family on the new
little one's arrival.  Health and happiness to all . . . .

Diane

Greetings all,

I've just signed up to this list. Though I initially played an early
Irishman in the SCA, I've become ever more drawn towards late
fifteenth century Italy!

I wonder if any on the list may be able to offer suggestion on
research with my current garb project? I live in Drachenwald, which
requires lots of flying to get to events. Therefore I needs must use
plastic travel-armour to meet airline weight allowances. So I'm
looking to research any period models for a sleeved surcoat to cover
up my sins against authenticity!

I've been looking through online painting galleries, as well as
Google-searching for many variations on 'Italian surcoat' and so far
have found nothing with sleeves. Can anyone help?


Master Cernac (the Inspired) OP, ODS
Shire of Lough Devnaree, Crown Principality of Insulae Draconis,
Kingdom of Drachenwald

> Greetings all,
>
> I've just signed up to this list. Though I initially played an early
> Irishman in the SCA, I've become ever more drawn towards late
> fifteenth century Italy!
>
> I wonder if any on the list may be able to offer suggestion on
> research with my current garb project? I live in Drachenwald, which
> requires lots of flying to get to events. Therefore I needs must use
> plastic travel-armour to meet airline weight allowances. So I'm
> looking to research any period models for a sleeved surcoat to cover
> up my sins against authenticity!
>
> I've been looking through online painting galleries, as well as
> Google-searching for many variations on 'Italian surcoat' and so far
> have found nothing with sleeves. Can anyone help?

Cernac,

You might want to be searching for particular artists' works to find the
clues that you need.  I looked at my Carpaccio book and found this
picture:

http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm

The knight isn't wearing anything over his armor.  The pikeman is wearing
a cool outfit but he may not have been wearing armor underneath (I don't
think pikemen would need it).

This one is called "The Pilgrims arrival in Cologne" in english so you may
want to do a search for a better picture:

http://web.tiscali.it/wwwart/accademia/dipinti/analisi/1_1.htm

But the men in this one also have armor but nothing covering it.

Benozzo Gozzoli is another good artist for you to look at.  He has many
paintings of men and the outfits are amazing.  Not sure if they are
wearing armor underneath but if you like the outfit, maybe you can use
creative license and wear it over the top of your armor ;~>

This is a great site to look for artist info:

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/

Good luck!

Diana

>
>
> Master Cernac (the Inspired) OP, ODS
> Shire of Lough Devnaree, Crown Principality of Insulae Draconis,
> Kingdom of Drachenwald
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

-----Original Message-----
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm

The knight isn't wearing anything over his armor.  The pikeman is wearing
a cool outfit but he may not have been wearing armor underneath (I don't
think pikemen would need it).

*Note: I don't think that is a pikeman. I believe that that is a spear.
Though I am assuming that the peacock is on the wall, it sure looks like it
is on the spearman's head. :)

Lyse

http://www.wga.hu/index1.html

Berrugio, Pedro
Burning of the heretics 1500

Giorgione
Portrait of Warrior with his Equerry 1509

There are a few paintings of the 1480-1490 that show a man in armour wearing
a cote or tabard over the main armour. I do not have their urls in file and
I can't seem to locate them at this time.

Lyse

A week or so I posted about a painting by Fra Carnevale where a lady
had tucked her mantello into the neckline of her gown to leave her
hands free.

I've been under the weather for a bit, so it took a while for me to
dig out the book and get a scan of the painting in question.  You can
find in in the Files section of the group under the title:

MantelloFraCarnevaleInFashionByMilaContini.jpg

This close up scan was taken from Fashion by Mila Contini published by
Crescent Books, New York 1965.

Like many survey books, it has many flaws, but it also has interesting
Italian items you don't see in most books.

Katharine of Cate Hall

Maestro Cernac, welcome to the land and the era of glorious
clothing.  While I understand the facination of all things Irish
except for the clothing which tends to be a little, shall we say,
unglamorous?

In your search for an Italian surcoat to disguise your armor you may
wish to search for a vestito, sacco or cioppa.

On of the best sources I know of images of Italian armored men on
horseback is the Codex Capodilista which was commissioned by an
eminent Paduan, Giovanni Francesco Capodilista.  I have set up a
folder in the Files sector of this group named Codex Capodilista with
four images from the Codex.  I hope one of them may find favor with
you.  They are all from the mid 15th century.

BTW from what part of Lough Devnaree do you hail?  I had the pleasure
of attending University College, Dublin for a term about 33 years
ago. Always wanted to get back, but haven't yet.

Dame Katharine of Cate Hall, OP, OL
Atenveldt
Scottsdale, Arizona

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "kyuudousha9"
<kyuudousha9@y...> wrote:
>
> I wonder if any on the list may be able to offer suggestion on
> research with my current garb project? I live in Drachenwald, which
> requires lots of flying to get to events. Therefore I needs must use
> plastic travel-armour to meet airline weight allowances. So I'm
> looking to research any period models for a sleeved surcoat to cover
> up my sins against authenticity!

> Master Cernac (the Inspired) OP, ODS
> Shire of Lough Devnaree, Crown Principality of Insulae Draconis,
> Kingdom of Drachenwald
>

Hi All,
I've been looking for any sort of loose gown garment worn by women
between 1530-1540 from anywhere in Italy.  So far I haven't had any
luck.  Definitely some portraits from the 1550s, but I'm looking for
some evidence that a similar garment might have been worn earlier with
those dresses that have the really large puffy upper sleeves.
Thanks,
Sahrye

My thanks to Diana, Katharine and Lyse for such prompt and useful
suggestions. All the more frustrating then that my broadband died over
the weekend so I've only today been able to get back online and look
them up this evening!!!

Diana Habra wrote:

> Cernac,
>
> You might want to be searching for particular artists' works to find the
> clues that you need.  I looked at my Carpaccio book and found this
> picture:
>
> http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm

> The knight isn't wearing anything over his armor.  The pikeman is wearing
> a cool outfit but he may not have been wearing armor underneath (I don't
> think pikemen would need it).

Yes this is excellent! Just the sort of reference I was looking for!
Judging from the armour style it looks like the very end of the
fifteenth century. (I have an optimum optimum target of finding
something 1470's tho' this looks very close). The mounted man is clearly
wearing helm and greaves so it looks to me like he would have more
armour on underneath.

> http://www.artcyclopedia.com/

Thanks for that, it looks an excellent resource. I've mostly been using
the Web Gallery of Art up 'til now.

Dame Katharine of Cate Hall wrote:

> In your search for an Italian surcoat to disguise your armor you may
> wish to search for a vestito, sacco or cioppa.

Thank you, I shall research such vestments further.

> On of the best sources I know of images of Italian armored men on
> horseback is the Codex Capodilista which was commissioned by an
> eminent Paduan, Giovanni Francesco Capodilista.  I have set up a
> folder in the Files sector of this group named Codex Capodilista with
> four images from the Codex.  I hope one of them may find favor with
> you.  They are all from the mid 15th century.

Thank you so much for putting this up! It looks like there is quite a
range of attire possible, and I quite like a couple of them. When does
this codex date to?

otsisto wrote:
> http://www.wga.hu/index1.html
>
> Berrugio, Pedro
> Burning of the heretics 1500
>
> Giorgione
> Portrait of Warrior with his Equerry 1509
>
> There are a few paintings of the 1480-1490 that show a man in armour
  > wearing
> a cote or tabard over the main armour. I do not have their urls in
  > file and
> I can't seem to locate them at this time.
>
> Lyse

Cheers, the last painting seems to show another research subject of mine
- an arming doublet, complete with leather reinforcements... very
interesting!

If you do come up with the other URLs I'll be very interested!


Thanks all,

Cernac

Mike Prendergast wrote:

>  > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm
>
The mounted man is clearly
> wearing helm and greaves so it looks to me like he would have more
> armour on underneath.

Well at further look, while his leggings are greave-shaped, they seem to
have the same fabric pattern as the gown, so it's more in doubt. Still
they could be cloth-covered armour(?)

Cernac

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Mike
Prendergast <kyuudousha9@y...> wrote:
>
> Mike Prendergast wrote:
>
> >  > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/carpaccio/p-carpaccio17.htm
>
> Well at further look, while his leggings are greave-shaped, they
seem to
> have the same fabric pattern as the gown, so it's more in doubt.
Still
> they could be cloth-covered armour(?)
>
> Cernac

It looks to me as though the man upon horse is just wearing a helm
and a German Waffenrock with matching leggings.

I know that in the 16thC. the Military Order of the Knights of St.
Stephen wore a white silk "tunic" over their armor as opposed to a
full surcoat ala the crusaders.

Well, thats my Quattrinos worth :)

Guilio de Medici
Cavaliere Gran Croce Dell'Ordine de Santo Stefano
Guild San Lorenzo(rpfs)