Greetings,

I have on order two yards of silk taffeta (10mm) and as I have never sewn or
owned silk before I figured I would turn to the wisdom of the group in dealing
with this delicate fabric.
Should I prewash it as one does linen/cotton?  Differently? Not at all?
It says it can be handwashed or dry-cleaned, how do those of you experienced in
silk care for your completed garments?

If this experiment turns out well (using this for sleeve linings) then I hope to
get enough for a dress.

YIS,
Nastasia Caterina di Rosati
Shire of Alderford
Middle Kingdom
Canton, OH USA
(MKA Cindi)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

YMMV, ok?  I live in Texas, where Everything get pre-washed.  There are
several reasons for this:  to get rid of chemicals added by the mill, to
kill off yet another million bugs' eggs since we have our own bugs here, to
make sure the fabric can withstand events in our punishing climate, etc.  I
prewash everything.  Every last thing.  Including trims and whatnot.  So
far, i have yet to lose one item by doing this.  Yes, they do shrink.  And
indeed they may even change color slightly.  But then it's done.  When
sewing the fabric, i know that the garment will not shrink, bleed, or
otherwise behave badly.

Good luck!

Gerita
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindi" <natashammud@...>
To: <italianrenaissancecostuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:46 PM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] What should I do to prepare silk
for sewing?


> Greetings,
>
> I have on order two yards of silk taffeta (10mm) and as I have never sewn
or owned silk before I figured I would turn to the wisdom of the group in
dealing with this delicate fabric.
> Should I prewash it as one does linen/cotton?  Differently? Not at all?
> It says it can be handwashed or dry-cleaned, how do those of you
experienced in silk care for your completed garments?
>
> If this experiment turns out well (using this for sleeve linings) then I
hope to get enough for a dress.
>
> YIS,
> Nastasia Caterina di Rosati
> Shire of Alderford
> Middle Kingdom
> Canton, OH USA
> (MKA Cindi)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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--- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., "Cindi" <natashammud@n...>
wrote:

> ...how do those of you experienced in silk care for your completed
garments?

It depends on the silk and the garment. Some silks will waterstain,
so you need to take a swatch, drop a single drop of water on it, and
let it dry, to see if the silk will waterstain. A water stain can
either be a discoloration or a marked change of texture from the rest
of the silk that remains even after the fabric dries (and is ironed
if necessary). If the silk in question waterstains, then you *must*
dryclean it, use only a dry iron on it, and protect it from sweat and
other fluids.

Personally, if my silk garment is a dark/bright color and I need to
make sure that it will not fade unevenly, I have it dry-cleaned.
Period. I won't deliberately let a drop of water touch that sucker in
order to try to prevent uneven fading or the sort of "crackelure"
fading that sometimes occurs in the wash (hand OR machine, even on
the delicate cycle).

If the garment is a piece of everyday wear (garb or mundane) that is
light in color or that can look, well, worn-in (think pre-washed
denim, sandwashed silk/rayon/etc., etc.), then I'll prewash it in hot
water, dry it in a hot dryer, distress the hell out of it first
before I sew it, then wash it on the delicate cycle and either hang
dry it or dry it flat, or dry it in a very cool dryer.

If the garment is lined, I'll either prewash the fabric first (hot,
to get the excess dye out and shrink it maximally) and wash on
delicate with line/lie-flat drying, or I'll have the garment dry-
cleaned from the get-go.


Brenda
webwarren@...

--- n2kye <webwarren@...> wrote:
<snipped> If the silk in question waterstains, then
you *must* dryclean it, use only a dry iron on it, and
protect it from sweat and other fluids.<<<<<<



Anyone know what types of silk waterstain? Personally
I've used silk only three times so far - none of these
(an organza, a low-shine tabby weave, and a slightly
slubby one woven with metallic gold threads) stained
when washed. I'd like to avoid these silks if they
exist - after all, there was no dry cleaning in
period. I washed these all by machine silk cycle, and
I'd like to keep it that way. :)



Bella



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--- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella
<bella_lucia_da_verona@y...> wrote:

> Anyone know what types of silk waterstain?

I think a lot of it is the dye rather than the silk itself... My one
particularly *bad* experience with silk waterstaining was a very
inexpensive unlined silk shantung suit in a mid-range blue which I
had purchased (at employee discount) at the retailer I was working
for at the time. I had gotten the jacket in black as well as the
blue, and don't remember having had a waterstain problem with it, but
then again, my sister commandeered it almost immediately for
an "interview suit", so I may not have worn it enough to have caused
a water stain or to have noticed the existence of one.

Note also that the worst waterstaining is not from overall immersion,
but from spotting (getting caught out in a drizzle, for example, or
the condensation from your beverage dripping onto your skirts)...
which is why I said a swatch and a single drop of water. Using any
laundry pretreatment against having just stained silk of this type
*will* make it worse, BTW.


Brenda
webwarren@...

There are also products sold designed to set the dye
in silk.  Many silks are actually over-dyed to get
their intense color, which is why they water-stain
when wet.

I've had good look with products from Dharma Trading
that set the dye in fabric.  They also sell white silk
and lots of dye to make it any gorgeous color you
want.

Niccola

--- n2kye <webwarren@...> wrote:
> --- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Bella
> <bella_lucia_da_verona@y...> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know what types of silk waterstain?
>
> I think a lot of it is the dye rather than the silk
> itself... My one
> particularly *bad* experience with silk
> waterstaining was a very
> inexpensive unlined silk shantung suit in a
> mid-range blue which I
> had purchased (at employee discount) at the retailer
> I was working
> for at the time. I had gotten the jacket in black as
> well as the
> blue, and don't remember having had a waterstain
> problem with it, but
> then again, my sister commandeered it almost
> immediately for
> an "interview suit", so I may not have worn it
> enough to have caused
> a water stain or to have noticed the existence of
> one.
>
> Note also that the worst waterstaining is not from
> overall immersion,
> but from spotting (getting caught out in a drizzle,
> for example, or
> the condensation from your beverage dripping onto
> your skirts)...
> which is why I said a swatch and a single drop of
> water. Using any
> laundry pretreatment against having just stained
> silk of this type
> *will* make it worse, BTW.
>
>
> Brenda
> webwarren@...
>
>
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Thank you Gerita and Brenda,

I used Brenda's waterstain test, and after it was negative, treated the silk
just like any old piece of cotton, and thankfully it was no worse for ware afte
comming out of the dryer (well a bit smaller but I expected that).  Now I just
need to draft a pattern for my sleeves and have at it, combining the luscious
velvet and silk into one unit.

YIS,
Nastasia Caterina di Rosati
Shire of Alderford
Middle Kingdom
Canton Ohio
(mka Cindi)
mailto:natashammud@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh!  Sounds yummy!  Good luck.

Gerita


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindi" <natashammud@...>
To: <italianrenaissancecostuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] What should I do to prepare
silk for sewing?


> Thank you Gerita and Brenda,
>
> I used Brenda's waterstain test, and after it was negative, treated the
silk just like any old piece of cotton, and thankfully it was no worse for
ware afte comming out of the dryer (well a bit smaller but I expected that).
Now I just need to draft a pattern for my sleeves and have at it, combining
the luscious velvet and silk into one unit.
>
> YIS,
> Nastasia Caterina di Rosati
> Shire of Alderford
> Middle Kingdom
> Canton Ohio
> (mka Cindi)
> mailto:natashammud@...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>             ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> italianrenaissancecostuming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
>

Greetings,
  I'm trying to finish up the hem on an Italian
Renaissance gown, and was wondering if I could make a
train, and if so how long? I know we don't have a lot
of portraits showing the bottom of a gown, so it could
be hard to find evidence of a train one way or the
other.
  I was also wondering, for a gown with a front
closure, would it have just been laced, or might there
be some kind of hook-and-eye on the inside, or even
decorative metal clasps on the outside?
  BTW, the style of Italian Ren gown I am speaking of
is often referred to as the "Ever After" gown.
  Sorry for the cross-post.
  your humble servant,
  Isobel

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I'm not sure what the 'ever after' looks like, unfortunately.  I would say
that, unless you're Venetian, a train for a later-period dress would not
come amiss.  Venetians lived on a muddy island that required the use of
chopines to walk in the streets without getting wet and filthy, so i'd
rather doubt a train there.

As to closing a front-laced gown, do you belong to ItalianPersona?  I think
we have archived an entire discussion of closings.  Certainly lacing of
various types was acceptable.  Hooks and eyes were Period, but i'm not sure
if they were used on dress fronts.  Decorative closures were certainly used
for some things, but again, i can't quote a source.  "Ladies' Gowns of the
Italian Renaissance 1460 - 1530 discusses lacing only.  Sorry.

Gerita
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth" <isobelthered@...>
To: <SCA-Garb@yahoogroups.com>; <Courtesan@yahoogroups.com>;
<italianrenaissancecostuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:53 AM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Italian Ren gown help


> Greetings,
> I'm trying to finish up the hem on an Italian
> Renaissance gown, and was wondering if I could make a
> train, and if so how long? I know we don't have a lot
> of portraits showing the bottom of a gown, so it could
> be hard to find evidence of a train one way or the
> other.
> I was also wondering, for a gown with a front
> closure, would it have just been laced, or might there
> be some kind of hook-and-eye on the inside, or even
> decorative metal clasps on the outside?
> BTW, the style of Italian Ren gown I am speaking of
> is often referred to as the "Ever After" gown.
> Sorry for the cross-post.
> your humble servant,
> Isobel
>
> __________________________________________________
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--- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., Elizabeth
<isobelthered@y...> wrote:
> Greetings,
>  I'm trying to finish up the hem on an Italian
> Renaissance gown, and was wondering if I could make a
> train, and if so how long?
  I know we don't have a lot
> of portraits showing the bottom of a gown, so it could
> be hard to find evidence of a train one way or the
> other.

Actually, to see full length pics of garb try looking at religious
scenes which usually show several people, including the donors, who
are usually dressed in the height of current fashion rather than the
dreaded "allegorical" clothing worn by saits, angels and the like.
I've seen some evidence of trains but they are not usually very long.

>  I was also wondering, for a gown with a front
> closure, would it have just been laced, or might there
> be some kind of hook-and-eye on the inside, or even
> decorative metal clasps on the outside?

Yes, yes and yes! LOL  Actually, I'm not so sure about the hook and
eye but I suspect that something like that was probably used where
you see an underdress and a large gap in the bodice of the overgown
but no evidence of lacing.  To lay as smooth as the portraits show I
think that in some cases the bodice of the overgown is perhaps
attached to the bodice of the undergown with hooks and eyes.  But I
have absolutely no proof of this and it could just as easily be a
really tight over bodice or simply artistic license.  However, I have
seen both lacing and decorative closures for the bodice of an
overgown shown in portraiture. I strongly suggest checking out the
websites of Jen, Bella and Aoda (sorry, I'm at work with no access to
my links currently)for scads of great portraits to look at.

>  BTW, the style of Italian Ren gown I am speaking of
> is often referred to as the "Ever After" gown.
>  Sorry for the cross-post.
>  your humble servant,
>  Isobel
>
Good luck and post pics when it's done! :)
Regards,
Lucia

--- Carolle M Cox <hpockets@...> wrote:
I'm not sure what the 'ever after' looks like,
unfortunately. I would say that, unless you're
Venetian, a train for a later-period dress would not
come amiss. Venetians lived on a muddy island that
required the use of chopines to walk in the streets
without getting wet and filthy, so i'd rather doubt a
train there.<snipped><<<<<<<<<


Venetians still live on several islands, and their
streets are no more muddy today than they were
previously. There were more campi back then (grassy
areas) but they were more into the centre of the
islands, and so didn't get affected much by flooding
waters. You'd get wet, certainly, during a flood or
very high tide - in some areas of Venice. This doesn't
seem to have prevent the ladies of Venice, who were in
some opinions, more inclined to show off their wealth,
in wearing a train.

I've just replied to this same query on the courtesan
list, so I'll share my answer here:

The "Ever After" dress has always struck me as an
interpretation of late fifteenth century dress in
Venice.

If so, you'd need evidence of trains and front
closures from art of this time. For trains matching
this criteria, I know of these paintings and drawing:

Drawing by Durer of Venetian lady showing her holding
her train:
<http://au.geocities.com/bella_lucia_da_verona/VENETIANLADYDurer1495.jpg>

"Procession in Piazza S. Marco (detail) 1496":
<http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/b/bellini/gentile/miracl1a.jpg>
  (Look for the lady in red in the mid background)

"The Relic of the Holy Cross is offered to the Scuola
di S. Giovanni Evangelista c. 1494":
<http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/b/bastiani/miracl5.jpg>
(Look for lady in pink just slightly to the left of
centre - she's partly hidden behind a gentleman)


As for front closures, I'm afraid I can't help. The
under-dresses I think were side or back closing, the
over-dresses may have closed with any of the things
you mention, but I've not found any hard evidence so
far of any of them, except for maybe buttons, as can
be seen in the Durer drawing above.

Hope this helps,


=====
Lady Bella Lucia da Verona
Innilgard, Lochac

The Realm of Venus
http://au.geocities.com/bella_lucia_da_verona
Owner, Courtesan E-mail Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Courtesan

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Greetings to the list,

To anyone who has already read this, please forgive the cross posting.

I finished my latest project by the October 1st deadline I had, although it's
taken me a while to get the photos taken and processed. But they're finally
done.

I've done a web page with the info and pics to make it easier to see them, if
anyone would like to. I have only two gripes with my photos - my scoliosis was
playing up so I look less than happy in some shots (I've only used the ones that
didn't have me
looking totally murderous) and my 13 year old tried very hard to centre the
ponytail for the ribbon-wrapped hairdo but pulled it out of centre while
wrapping my braids (I can't complain - I was glad to have her help :) ) Oh, that
and the fact that the camicia shots were washed out with flash, and not clear
enough without flash, and my 15 year old el cheapo camera can't focus close-up
for quids!

A-hem.... :)

You can find the page here:

http://members.tripod.com/realm_of_venus/mygarb/index.htm


Bella




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bravo!!!  Bravo!!!!  Bella, your gown is gorgeous!  I'm so happy to see that
your trip over to the Florentine side of costuming was such a brilliant
success!  :-)

-jen
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/



>Greetings to the list,
>
>To anyone who has already read this, please forgive the cross posting.
>
>I finished my latest project by the October 1st deadline I had, although
>it's taken me a while to get the photos taken and processed. But they're
>finally done.
>
>I've done a web page with the info and pics to make it easier to see them,
>if anyone would like to. I have only two gripes with my photos - my
>scoliosis was playing up so I look less than happy in some shots (I've only
>used the ones that didn't have me
>looking totally murderous) and my 13 year old tried very hard to centre the
>ponytail for the ribbon-wrapped hairdo but pulled it out of centre while
>wrapping my braids (I can't complain - I was glad to have her help :) ) Oh,
>that and the fact that the camicia shots were washed out with flash, and
>not clear enough without flash, and my 15 year old el cheapo camera can't
>focus close-up for quids!
>
>A-hem.... :)
>
>You can find the page here:
>
>http://members.tripod.com/realm_of_venus/mygarb/index.htm
>
>
>Bella



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--- Jennifer Thompson <blue_jefiner@...>
wrote:

Bravo!!! Bravo!!!! Bella, your gown is gorgeous! I'm
so happy to see that your trip over to the Florentine
side of costuming was such a brilliant success!
:-)<<<<<<<<<


ROTFL! Thank you Jen. :) Yes, my first love will
always be Venetian, but I felt the sudden need to try
a doublet-style bodice to see what it looked like on.
And you know I LOVE *anything* 16th century
Italian.... (well almost....those very stiff,
Spanish-looking Italians are another matter)  :) :)


Bella


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Hi all,

I just wanted to let you know that if you're trying to
access my tripod page about my latest sewing project
and can't (because of bandwidth limitations), I've
uploaded three of the pics to my folder...

<http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/italianrenaissancecostuming/lst>


Bella

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- Always be connected to your Messenger Friends

Hi all,

I've been working on a linen shirt for Marc today -
it's the one shown in "Cut My Cote". Anyway, I decided
to cut my linen to the period width, and discovered
that the shirt probably wasn't worn by a man, but
perhaps a thin adolescent boy - the sleeves are very
narrow. So I've hopefully fixed the problem by
slitting the sleeves down the centre lengthwise and
inserting a wide strip of linen with french seams. I
was planning on machine blackworking the collar, front
opening slit and sleeves anyway - so I'll use it to
hide the seams, which is a pretty period thing to do
anyway.

This is to go with the doublet I'm making him for
Crown Tourney in two weeks. I'm not sure whether I'm
using the word doublet right here, because this is
unlike the usual Elizabethan era doublet. It's the one
worn by Federigo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua in Titian's
portrait, circa 1525-30:

<http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/t/tiziano/2portrai/gonzaga.jpg>

This looks like he's wearing two layers over the
shirt, but I'm only making the outermost one. I was
going to use the navy blue velvet, but I've changed my
mind and I'm going to use the black velvet instead -
to match the blackwork of course. :)

I used Fantasy Fashions Dashing Doublets pattern as
the basis for this, altering the skirt to make it
longer, and the sleeve cap to make it a slit one like
in the portrait, and omitting the centre back seam.
The toile took a little fidgeting with - Marc has a
bit of a belly to take into account - but in the end I
was reasonably happy with the outcome, other than the
shoulder seams which seem to want to lie forward on
the shoulder. I'll fix that next time.

I've got some black and silver gimp braid, but I think
I might look for some wide jacquard ribbon trim in
black and silver, to more closely match the look in
the portrait. The only change I'm thinking of making
is to add buttons down the front.

Any hints, tips, comments or queries? :)


Bella



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What an adventure you're on!
My puter's resolution only allows me to see two layers at all on that
painting.  I think it would still be a doublet in English, though.  Lovely!
Pictures?

Gerita


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bella" <bella_lucia_da_verona@...>
To: <sca-garb@yahoogroups.com>;
<italianrenaissancecostuming@yahoogroups.com>; <courtesan@yahoogroups.com>;
<rencostumer@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 12:28 AM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Shirt and doublet (?) adventures


> Hi all,
>
> I've been working on a linen shirt for Marc today -
> it's the one shown in "Cut My Cote". Anyway, I decided
> to cut my linen to the period width, and discovered
> that the shirt probably wasn't worn by a man, but
> perhaps a thin adolescent boy - the sleeves are very
> narrow. So I've hopefully fixed the problem by
> slitting the sleeves down the centre lengthwise and
> inserting a wide strip of linen with french seams. I
> was planning on machine blackworking the collar, front
> opening slit and sleeves anyway - so I'll use it to
> hide the seams, which is a pretty period thing to do
> anyway.
>
> This is to go with the doublet I'm making him for
> Crown Tourney in two weeks. I'm not sure whether I'm
> using the word doublet right here, because this is
> unlike the usual Elizabethan era doublet. It's the one
> worn by Federigo Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua in Titian's
> portrait, circa 1525-30:
>
> <http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/t/tiziano/2portrai/gonzaga.jpg>
>
> This looks like he's wearing two layers over the
> shirt, but I'm only making the outermost one. I was
> going to use the navy blue velvet, but I've changed my
> mind and I'm going to use the black velvet instead -
> to match the blackwork of course. :)
>
> I used Fantasy Fashions Dashing Doublets pattern as
> the basis for this, altering the skirt to make it
> longer, and the sleeve cap to make it a slit one like
> in the portrait, and omitting the centre back seam.
> The toile took a little fidgeting with - Marc has a
> bit of a belly to take into account - but in the end I
> was reasonably happy with the outcome, other than the
> shoulder seams which seem to want to lie forward on
> the shoulder. I'll fix that next time.
>
> I've got some black and silver gimp braid, but I think
> I might look for some wide jacquard ribbon trim in
> black and silver, to more closely match the look in
> the portrait. The only change I'm thinking of making
> is to add buttons down the front.
>
> Any hints, tips, comments or queries? :)
>
>
> Bella
>
>
>
> http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
> - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
>
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>
>

--- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., "Carolle M Cox"
<hpockets@v...> wrote:
> What an adventure you're on!
> My puter's resolution only allows me to see two layers at all on
that
> painting.  I think it would still be a doublet in English, though.
Lovely!
> Pictures?
>
> Gerita<<

It's really only a single layer. If you go to this site:

http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/t/tiziano/2portrai/index.html

There is a picture of the subject and you can see that in between the
trim running down the front, the two sides of the doublet is closed
by tying it up the middle, you can also see the shirt peeking out
from underneath it. I had this doublet made for me about 10 years ago
out of a rich burgundy velvet, still one of my all time favorites to
wear.

Giulio de Medici
Cavre. Gran Croce Dell'Ordine de Santo Stefano
Guild San Lorenzo
"Onore et Onere"

Beautiful resolution on that copy, m'lord.  And are there any pics extant of
you in the lovely velvet one?

nosy Gerita

--- Carolle M Cox <hpockets@...> wrote:

What an adventure you're on!
My puter's resolution only allows me to see two layers
at all on that painting. I think it would still be a
doublet in English, though. Lovely!
Pictures?<<<<<<


As soon as it's finished I promise pictures - I'll get
them taken at the event. :)



Bella


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--- comrion <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

It's really only a single layer. If you go to this
site:
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/t/tiziano/2portrai/index.html

There is a picture of the subject and you can see that
in between the trim running down the front, the two
sides of the doublet is closed by tying it up the
middle, you can also see the shirt peeking out from
underneath it.<snip><<<<<<<<


The shirt is a given. I see the trim and I see the
bows, but I don't see one garment - I see a lower one
that's vest-like and ties at the lower front, and an
outer one that only ties at the waist and is buttoned
at the collar. If you look closely, you can see that
the lower garment hugs the body and the outer stands
away from it a bit - enough to see that one of the
ribbon bows is tucked under the front opening edge. By
the way - I used the same pic in my post that you have
used here. :)



Bella


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Urgh!  Then i'll have to speak sternly to this computer, because the second
was much clearer than the first!  Bella, i bow to your superior knowledge,
and only beg to see a photo when this is finished.

Gerita


By
> the way - I used the same pic in my post that you have
> used here. :)
>
>
>
> Bella

--- Carolle M Cox <hpockets@...> wrote:

Urgh! Then i'll have to speak sternly to this
computer, because the second was much clearer than the
first! Bella, i bow to your superior knowledge,
and only beg to see a photo when this is finished.<<<<


Don't know about superior knowledge - I have no
definite proof. I'm just pretty certain of what I'm
seeing. Someone on another list was telling me that
her husband, who is a skilled tailor I'm told, made
this outfit as a vest-like garment covered by the
doublet-like outer one, and as a seamstress I find
what I see makes more sense construction-wise as two
garments rather than one. :)



Bella


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On Bella's wonderful site I found the following:
http://au.geocities.com/bella_lucia_da_verona/ceyx1.JPG

Now here's my question. The front panel of the skirt of the overgown
appears to be of a different fabric than the rest of the overgown.
Yet it does not appear to be the same fabric as the sleeves and
bodice of the undergown. Do you think this is
A) a panel of different fabric in the overgown?
B) actually part of the undergown and the overgown has a split skirt
to show it?
C) A weirdness of the painting, perhaps fading or poor restoration
work or something like that?
D) Other explainations?

You see, I have a wonderful pile of blue velvet and a lovely stash of
blue brocade with little fleur de lis all over it and I am trying to
figure out how to use them together. Generally, I prefer the lower
waist of the 1500s over the higher waist of the 1400s yet in the
1500s you seldom see the overgown/undergown combo or 2 different
fabrics being used in the same dress except for the sleeves on
ocassion. I'd really like to make use of both of these fabrics
together and am seeking suggestions and ideas. Any help will be
appreciated!
Regards,
Lucia

I've read that Italian flag fans were made of both paper and cloth
and they seem fairly simple to make.  However, heres my question:
How did they stiffen the cloth (or the paper for that matter though I
assume I could use cardboard)???  I've considered sandwiching a piece
of plastic canvas between the cloth but I'd like to know a more
authentic solution if at all possible.  Thanks you.
Regards,
Lucia

--- In italianrenaissancecostuming@y..., "Madonna Lucia Ilaria
Malatesta" <lamiastrix@e...> wrote:

> The front panel of the skirt of the overgown
> appears to be of a different fabric than the rest of the overgown.
> Yet it does not appear to be the same fabric as the sleeves and
> bodice of the undergown. Do you think this is

> D) Other explainations?

An apron. Why she'd be wearing an apron in public is beyond me, but
even the apparent "contrast bodice" of the younger of Carpaccio's
_Two Ladies_ only highlights that she is wearing a pale-colored apron
over her undergown.

> You see, I have a wonderful pile of blue velvet and a lovely stash
> of blue brocade with little fleur de lis all over it and I am
> trying to figure out how to use them together. Generally, I prefer
> the lower waist of the 1500s over the higher waist of the 1400s yet
> in the 1500s you seldom see the overgown/undergown combo or 2
> different fabrics being used in the same dress except for the
> sleeves on ocassion. I'd really like to make use of both of these
> fabrics together and am seeking suggestions and ideas.

The combo sounds fabulous. Other than sleeves, you might consider
guarding, or perhaps if it is late enough, a contrasting forepart? Or
a ropa (or similar garment) that is worn over your regular gown (see
the later portraits of Eleonora de Toledo for an example; I believe
there are others).


Brenda
webwarren@...

--- Madonna Lucia Ilaria Malatesta
<lamiastrix@...> wrote:

I've read that Italian flag fans were made of both
paper and cloth and they seem fairly simple to make.
However, heres my question:
How did they stiffen the cloth (or the paper for that
matter though I assume I could use cardboard)??? I've
considered sandwiching a piece of plastic canvas
between the cloth but I'd like to know a more
authentic solution if at all possible.<<<<<


Hmmm...good question. I don't know the answer, but
could guess that it might have been some kind of
glue/size, made from resin perhaps?


Bella


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--- n2kye <webwarren@...> wrote:

An apron. Why she'd be wearing an apron in public is
beyond me...<snip>


I think it was because the function of the apron was
not utilitarian in these cases - it was to show off
one's wealth whilst performing the function of an
added decorative touch to one's outfit. It was not a
fashion confined only to Venice, although I have not
found pictorial evidence of the decorative apron's use
anywhere else *earlier* than what we can see in
Venetian art. Of the portraits featuring the wearing
of a decorative apron, this has to be my favourite:

<http://www.etciu.com/MUSEUM/M_HTML/PAINTING/PARMIGIANINO1.html>


Bella

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Greetings all,

I have been walking around for the last two days with
a silly, bemused, but ultimately amazed and happy
expression on my face because I have discovered I have
a fairy godmother, who shall remain nameless to spare
her blushes (unless she chooses to name herself - and
I do hope she'll forgive me singing her praises in
even this indirect way). :)

This kind and generous soul dropped 10yards of bright
red (yes red! my favourite colour) cotton velveteen in
my lap (figuratively speaking), as an early christmas
present. To say I was surprised would be the
understatement of the century! May karma reward her.
:)


Bella



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