Greetings all,

I must apologise for getting this to you late - I actually updated
yesterday (May 1st here in Australia) but for some reason forgot to
make the announcement via the usual Yahoo groups.

This month I present to you the work of Bernadette de Foix, who has
created a delicious 1570s Venetian ensemble. The colour is just
perfect on her!

Without further ado....

<http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/yourgarb/showcase.htm>


Donna Bella Lucia da Verona
Innilgard, Lochac
The Realm of Venus

Hi Cassandra~!

Welcone!! I will be back home in my own computer in a few days House sitting I
can get you a couple of sites that give you dorections on how to measure and be
measured for a italina Ren dress.. the are really easy dresses to make!!!! DO
not sweat it lasy we will get you all prettied up!!! I willmpost the sites to
another reply to this list late tuesdy evenig okay...

Lady Satine

-----Original Message-----
From: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
To: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1 May 2005 17:31:35 -0000
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Digest Number 663



There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

       1. it's me again
            From: "cassandracressy" <pattirollo@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
    Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:01:01 -0000
    From: "cassandracressy" <pattirollo@...>
Subject: it's me again

I know I have LOTS of questions about Italian Rens.  The lastest is
this: if I took the pattern for the square front bodice from
the 'Everafter' pattern doctored it a bit would it come close to a
period dress??? I am trying to get a dress ready to wear to Crown at
the end of the month. I thought if I extended the side front under the
arms to just past the side and angled it a bit and narrowed the
shoulder straps it might work.  I won't be using a corset but I have
discovered some wonderfully stiff stuff called flexi firm.  I found it
in the craft section of my local fabric store. It stays stiff even when
washed. I will still use metal stays along the lacing line just to help
keep it VERY firm.
The last question for now is: I have read a few articles about dressing
Italian Ren. but am a little confused.  I know there is something like
a chemise that is worn under the dress.  But I also have noticed that
in many of the paintings that there is a different coloured skirt under
the over dress. Is this a completely separate under dress with a bodice
or is it attached to the over skirt??
Ok I think that's it for now.  And thank you to anyone who can help me.
Cassandra





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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Yahoo! Groups Links




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BTW forgot you do NOT need a corset( my appeal) They were not used in this style
dress! for this type of dress!!!!!!!! I will Post a ton of links for you to
check out! just wait until tuesday okay??? I am more than happy to help you in
any way I can!


Thanks
Satine

-----Original Message-----
From: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
To: Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1 May 2005 17:31:35 -0000
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Digest Number 663



There is 1 message in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

       1. it's me again
            From: "cassandracressy" <pattirollo@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
    Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:01:01 -0000
    From: "cassandracressy" <pattirollo@...>
Subject: it's me again

I know I have LOTS of questions about Italian Rens.  The lastest is
this: if I took the pattern for the square front bodice from
the 'Everafter' pattern doctored it a bit would it come close to a
period dress??? I am trying to get a dress ready to wear to Crown at
the end of the month. I thought if I extended the side front under the
arms to just past the side and angled it a bit and narrowed the
shoulder straps it might work.  I won't be using a corset but I have
discovered some wonderfully stiff stuff called flexi firm.  I found it
in the craft section of my local fabric store. It stays stiff even when
washed. I will still use metal stays along the lacing line just to help
keep it VERY firm.
The last question for now is: I have read a few articles about dressing
Italian Ren. but am a little confused.  I know there is something like
a chemise that is worn under the dress.  But I also have noticed that
in many of the paintings that there is a different coloured skirt under
the over dress. Is this a completely separate under dress with a bodice
or is it attached to the over skirt??
Ok I think that's it for now.  And thank you to anyone who can help me.
Cassandra





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links




------------------------------------------------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Lex,

i recently ran across this portrait in Boston's art museum online
catalogue

it looks very similar to the front bodice and sleeves of the Ever
After work dress you were inquiring about.
I hope this helps you... they style is documentable!

Girl with Cherries, ca. 1494
Attributed to Giovanni Ambrogio de Predis (Italian, Milanese, active
by 1472, died after 1508)

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?
dep=11&zoomFlag=0&viewmode=1&item=91%2E26%2E5

-Laita



--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "lexieandaj"
<lexieandaj@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello all!! I am a newbie here and I a need some help. I am
looking
> for a particular style to dress. I know I could be shot for saying
> this but here it goes.... It's similar to the dress in EVER AFTER.
> The dress I am referring to is her everyday dress. >
> http://www.everaftercostumes.com/work.html

Thank You Thank You Thank you. I needed that. I have
been having a awful 2 weeks and that made my day. That
exactly what I was looking for. Your the BEST!!

Thanks a bunch!!!!!!!
Lex




--- laita_dapadova <laita_dapadova@...> wrote:
> Hi Lex,
>
> i recently ran across this portrait in Boston's art
> museum online
> catalogue
>
> it looks very similar to the front bodice and
> sleeves of the Ever
> After work dress you were inquiring about.
> I hope this helps you... they style is documentable!
>
> Girl with Cherries, ca. 1494
> Attributed to Giovanni Ambrogio de Predis (Italian,
> Milanese, active
> by 1472, died after 1508)
>
>
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?
> dep=11&zoomFlag=0&viewmode=1&item=91%2E26%2E5
>
> -Laita
>
>
>
> --- In
> Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
> "lexieandaj"
> <lexieandaj@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all!! I am a newbie here and I a need some
> help. I am
> looking
> > for a particular style to dress. I know I could be
> shot for saying
> > this but here it goes.... It's similar to the
> dress in EVER AFTER.
> > The dress I am referring to is her everyday dress.
> >
> > http://www.everaftercostumes.com/work.html
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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my pleasure :)

Alexa Folster <lexieandaj@...> wrote:Thank You Thank You Thank you. I
needed that. I have
been having a awful 2 weeks and that made my day. That
exactly what I was looking for. Your the BEST!!

Thanks a bunch!!!!!!!
Lex




--- laita_dapadova <laita_dapadova@...> wrote:
> Hi Lex,
>
> i recently ran across this portrait in Boston's art
> museum online
> catalogue
>
> it looks very similar to the front bodice and
> sleeves of the Ever
> After work dress you were inquiring about.
> I hope this helps you... they style is documentable!
>
> Girl with Cherries, ca. 1494
> Attributed to Giovanni Ambrogio de Predis (Italian,
> Milanese, active
> by 1472, died after 1508)
>
>
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?
> dep=11&zoomFlag=0&viewmode=1&item=91%2E26%2E5
>
> -Laita
>
>
>
> --- In
> Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
> "lexieandaj"
> <lexieandaj@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all!! I am a newbie here and I a need some
> help. I am
> looking
> > for a particular style to dress. I know I could be
> shot for saying
> > this but here it goes.... It's similar to the
> dress in EVER AFTER.
> > The dress I am referring to is her everyday dress.
> >
> > http://www.everaftercostumes.com/work.html
>
>
>
>
>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry for asking so many questions but I really am determined to make
an Italian Ren that is as close to period as I can get.
I have been studying this painting
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html
The orange-red dress is the one I have been looking at.  Correct me
if I am wrong, but the front of the dress looks like it's a rectangle
with shoulder straps attached.  I don't know how else to describe
it.  If any of you are old enough to remember the sun dresses of the
60's early 70's with the yolk and straps, that's what I am thinking
of.  Is this possible?  If so, can the straps be moved forward a bit
so that they don't sit off the shoulder?  I really can't see myself
wearing something like that. But then again.....my hubby might like
it.
Also, I have noticed looking at this painting and others the the bust
is flattened and not up and rounded, if you know what I mean.  That's
fine if you are small to medium busted. But if you are very well
endowed that doesn't work. For such a woman, would she have had them
up and round? Covered the exposed bust with a partlet type covering
or just a chemise? I plan on cutting out a test bodice tonight.  I
only have about a week to do this dress.
Thanks.
Cassandra

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
"cassandracressy" <pattirollo@h...> wrote:
> Sorry for asking so many questions but I really am determined to make
> an Italian Ren that is as close to period as I can get.
> I have been studying this painting
> http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html

*snippage*

> Also, I have noticed looking at this painting and others the the bust
> is flattened and not up and rounded, if you know what I mean.  That's
> fine if you are small to medium busted. But if you are very well
> endowed that doesn't work. For such a woman, would she have had them
> up and round? Covered the exposed bust with a partlet type covering
> or just a chemise? I plan on cutting out a test bodice tonight.  I
> only have about a week to do this dress.

It does sorta kinda work -- with liberal amounts of baby powder.
The girls won't go up very high -- and I don't need a chin rest,
so I just squish in.  Unfortunately, if you're wearing one of the
higher-waisted dresses, the seam is right across the lower breast
as opposed to being under bust.  don't know any way around it, but
I'd love to hear some suggestions!

Jerusha

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (as I feel the need to promote
this site whenever someone wants to know how to make Italian Ren gowns), I
highly recommend this site - Italian Renaissance
Gown Construction by Mistress Leona Khadine d'Este and Mistress Enid
d'Auliere -
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~rowen/renbk/rendressbook.html

When you're well-endowed, if your bodice fits right you wind up with a nice
amount of decolletage (sp?), not the dreaded "tits on a platter", if you'll
pardon the crude expression. If you like you can certainly cover your open
neckline with a simple scarf or partlet.

Regards,

Ginevra


>Sorry for asking so many questions but I really am determined to make
>an Italian Ren that is as close to period as I can get.
>I have been studying this painting
>http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html
>The orange-red dress is the one I have been looking at.  Correct me
>if I am wrong, but the front of the dress looks like it's a rectangle
>with shoulder straps attached.  I don't know how else to describe
>it.  If any of you are old enough to remember the sun dresses of the
>60's early 70's with the yolk and straps, that's what I am thinking
>of.  Is this possible?  If so, can the straps be moved forward a bit
>so that they don't sit off the shoulder?  I really can't see myself
>wearing something like that. But then again.....my hubby might like
>it.
>Also, I have noticed looking at this painting and others the the bust
>is flattened and not up and rounded, if you know what I mean.  That's
>fine if you are small to medium busted. But if you are very well
>endowed that doesn't work. For such a woman, would she have had them
>up and round? Covered the exposed bust with a partlet type covering
>or just a chemise? I plan on cutting out a test bodice tonight.  I
>only have about a week to do this dress.
>Thanks.
>Cassandra


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Jerusha:

Unfortuanately,I am VERY well endowed and no matter what I do will
end up with a chin rest. I had assumed that the waist and bodice met
at the bottom of the bust. The ones I wear right now are
the "Everafter" dress without darts. It sort of makes a bra-like
bodice, instead of a flatter bodice. I have these nice
rounded 'pillows'and or chin rest.  I guess I will try to make a mock
up with the extended side and side back closures.  Hopefully that
will work.
Thanks
Cassandra


--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Farmer"
<sfarmer@s...> wrote:
> --- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
> "cassandracressy" <pattirollo@h...> wrote:
> > Sorry for asking so many questions but I really am determined to
make
> > an Italian Ren that is as close to period as I can get.
> > I have been studying this painting
> >
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html
>
> *snippage*
>
> > Also, I have noticed looking at this painting and others the the
bust
> > is flattened and not up and rounded, if you know what I mean.
That's
> > fine if you are small to medium busted. But if you are very well
> > endowed that doesn't work. For such a woman, would she have had
them
> > up and round? Covered the exposed bust with a partlet type
covering
> > or just a chemise? I plan on cutting out a test bodice tonight.
I
> > only have about a week to do this dress.
>
> It does sorta kinda work -- with liberal amounts of baby powder.
> The girls won't go up very high -- and I don't need a chin rest,
> so I just squish in.  Unfortunately, if you're wearing one of the
> higher-waisted dresses, the seam is right across the lower breast
> as opposed to being under bust.  don't know any way around it, but
> I'd love to hear some suggestions!
>
> Jerusha

At 09:20 AM 5/4/2005, you wrote:

>Sorry for asking so many questions but I really am determined to make
>an Italian Ren that is as close to period as I can get.
>I have been studying this painting
>http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html
>The orange-red dress is the one I have been looking at.  Correct me
>if I am wrong, but the front of the dress looks like it's a rectangle
>with shoulder straps attached.  I don't know how else to describe
>it.  If any of you are old enough to remember the sun dresses of the
>60's early 70's with the yolk and straps, that's what I am thinking
>of.  Is this possible?  If so, can the straps be moved forward a bit
>so that they don't sit off the shoulder?  I really can't see myself
>wearing something like that. But then again.....my hubby might like
>it.
>Also, I have noticed looking at this painting and others the the bust
>is flattened and not up and rounded, if you know what I mean.  That's
>fine if you are small to medium busted. But if you are very well
>endowed that doesn't work. For such a woman, would she have had them
>up and round? Covered the exposed bust with a partlet type covering
>or just a chemise? I plan on cutting out a test bodice tonight.  I
>only have about a week to do this dress.
>Thanks.
>Cassandra

The backs of these gowns are probably built with side-back (in the place
where princess line seams would go) openings.  The straps are part of the
back panel.  If you look at the lady in the mustardy-gold dress, you can
see the strap starting to widen out as it goes back.  The strap comes over
the shoulder and attaches to the front right where the pectoral muscle
comes in from the arm.  It fits almost like a tiny cap sleeve.  Because
it's wider and higher in back, and because it's cut on a bias, it doesn't
fall off the shoulder, even though it sits right on the shoulder
point.  However, if you really don't like this feel, no one would snark you
for pulling it in a little farther towards your center.

The front of the bodice would be more like a trapezoid, with the lower edge
being the longer edge.  They appear on these ladies to go down to or
slightly above the "natural" waist, which is where your body folds when you
lean over sideways.  That's generally about the center of the ribcage.  We
modern folk generally think of the waist at the bottom of the ribcage, just
above the pelvis.  This is a few inches higher.

I'm a D or a DD, depending on the phase of the moon.  From the look of
these ladies, so are they.  Squishing down is no less uncomfortable than
squishing up.  If, when putting on the gown, you pull the bottoms of "the
girls" together, but otherwise let them go to their natural placement,
you'll achieve the look these ladies have. It's actually a very flattering
look for someone of greater dimensions.

If you look very closely, you will see that these ladies are all wearing
very, very sheer partlets.

Mary Taran



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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005

Adele:
I am north east of you in Sarnia, Ontario.  Right across the river from
Port Huron, Michigan.  Our Sca meetings are held every Wed night.
There is fencing, fighting,sometimes A&S and lots of company.  If you
would like to come up and teach a class in Italian Ren bodices we would
LOVE to have you.
Cassandra

Susan Farmer wrote:

>--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com,
>"cassandracressy" <pattirollo@h...> wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry for asking so many questions but I really am determined to make
>>an Italian Ren that is as close to period as I can get.
>>I have been studying this painting
>>http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html
>>
>>
>
>*snippage*
>
>
>
>>Also, I have noticed looking at this painting and others the the bust
>>is flattened and not up and rounded, if you know what I mean.  That's
>>fine if you are small to medium busted. But if you are very well
>>endowed that doesn't work. For such a woman, would she have had them
>>up and round? Covered the exposed bust with a partlet type covering
>>or just a chemise? I plan on cutting out a test bodice tonight.  I
>>only have about a week to do this dress.
>>
>>
>
>It does sorta kinda work -- with liberal amounts of baby powder.
>The girls won't go up very high -- and I don't need a chin rest,
>so I just squish in.  Unfortunately, if you're wearing one of the
>higher-waisted dresses, the seam is right across the lower breast
>as opposed to being under bust.  don't know any way around it, but
>I'd love to hear some suggestions!
>
>

I wear something like a 40D in a bra and have no difficulty with this
style.  Ditto one of my friends who wears about a 40_G_.  Basically,
they will end up more up than they would on a smaller-busted woman, but
they should not form a chin rest.  As far as I can tell, the secret is
mostly getting just the right amount of fabric between the shoulder
straps, cutting the armholes very neatly, and controlling bias stretch
.  The seam should _not_ cut across the lower bust, it should be under
the breasts regardless of size.   That may mean you can't cut the bodice
_really_ sort, but that's the essence of fitting-- cut the garment to
fit the body.

--
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
-----------------------------

--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Adele de
Maisieres <ladyadele@p...> wrote:

> >It does sorta kinda work -- with liberal amounts of baby powder.
> >The girls won't go up very high -- and I don't need a chin rest,
> >so I just squish in.  Unfortunately, if you're wearing one of the
> >higher-waisted dresses, the seam is right across the lower breast
> >as opposed to being under bust.  don't know any way around it, but
> >I'd love to hear some suggestions!
> >
> >
>
> I wear something like a 40D in a bra and have no difficulty with this
> style.  Ditto one of my friends who wears about a 40_G_.  Basically,
> they will end up more up than they would on a smaller-busted woman, but
> they should not form a chin rest.  As far as I can tell, the secret is
> mostly getting just the right amount of fabric between the shoulder
> straps, cutting the armholes very neatly, and controlling bias stretch
> .  The seam should _not_ cut across the lower bust, it should be under
> the breasts regardless of size.   That may mean you can't cut the
bodice
> _really_ sort, but that's the essence of fitting-- cut the garment to
> fit the body.

Well, I'm a 34F/G and unless I squish straight in, I have a chin
rest.  As always, your mileage may vary.  Perhaps I am squishing
*too* much ...  HOw compressed should the breast be?

Jerusha

I thought I would ask here first if anyone has read
the bilingual edition of "Selected Letters of
Alessandra Strozzi", translated by Heather Gregory.
They are mostly a mothers letters to her sons, but
there are some mention of fabric, flax etc.  But my
question is on letter #34 when Alessandra is lobbying
for $ for matierial for a cloak for her
daughter-in-law, the translated version states this:

". . . she'd like to make herself a cloak of black
Milanese twill . . .  She really needs it because it's
not the season for wearing gowns with a hood . . ."
(215)

So what is Milanese twill?  And what is a gown with a
hood?

Now I am new to Italian Ren, but I have not seen any
pictures gowns with hoods?

Any ideas?


Magdalena



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At 07:21 AM 5/5/2005, you wrote:


>Well, I'm a 34F/G and unless I squish straight in, I have a chin
>rest.  As always, your mileage may vary.  Perhaps I am squishing
>*too* much ...  HOw compressed should the breast be?
>
>Jerusha


Enough to hold them in place, so they don't, um, tmi warning, stare at your
feet.  You'll notice this is a rounded front look, not a straight conical
look.  And you *should* be squishing pretty much straight in.  "Gently
rounded"  is the preferred look.

Mary


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I forgot to mention that the book covers Alessandra's
letter from 1447 - 1470 in Florence.
--- Glendora <gmraby@...> wrote:
> I thought I would ask here first if anyone has read
> the bilingual edition of "Selected Letters of
> Alessandra Strozzi", translated by Heather Gregory.
> They are mostly a mothers letters to her sons, but
> there are some mention of fabric, flax etc.  But my
> question is on letter #34 when Alessandra is
> lobbying
> for $ for matierial for a cloak for her
> daughter-in-law, the translated version states this:
>
> ". . . she'd like to make herself a cloak of black
> Milanese twill . . .  She really needs it because
> it's
> not the season for wearing gowns with a hood . . ."
> (215)
>
> So what is Milanese twill?  And what is a gown with
> a
> hood?
>
> Now I am new to Italian Ren, but I have not seen any
> pictures gowns with hoods?
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Magdalena
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail Mobile
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your
> mobile phone.
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>



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--- In Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, Mary Taran
<marytaran@a...> wrote:
> At 07:21 AM 5/5/2005, you wrote:
>
>
> >Well, I'm a 34F/G and unless I squish straight in, I have a chin
> >rest.  As always, your mileage may vary.  Perhaps I am squishing
> >*too* much ...  HOw compressed should the breast be?
> >
> >Jerusha
>
>
> Enough to hold them in place, so they don't, um, tmi warning, stare
at your
> feet.  You'll notice this is a rounded front look, not a straight
conical
> look.  And you *should* be squishing pretty much straight in.  "Gently
> rounded"  is the preferred look.
>

Ah!  so I've probably been guilty of oversquishing.  In fact, the
gown that I have now originally had a boned bodice -- after I gained
the weight (ya just gotta love anti-depressants), that boning came
out Real Quick because it was slicing across the lower breast.

Jerusha

This is a great book! One of the best contemporary sources available to us,
as far as I'm concerned. I looked at my copy, and I don't know if I can
answer your questions adequately, but my thought is that there are some
vagaries of translation going on here. I'm certainly not fluent in Italian
(not even close) but I know enough about the clothing and fabric terminology
to muddle through.

The "cloak of black Milanese twill" is translated from the Italian "una
giornea di saia nera melanese per questo San Giovanni." "Una giornea" is the
garment that is generally considered to be a tabard-like overdress, with
open sides and usually open center front. If you're not a costuming expert,
you might translate this as a cloak. "Di saia nera melanese", I would
translate as "of black Milanese [fabric - possibly twill]". I looked up
"saia" in both Jaqueline Herald's and Carole Collier-Frick's books, and the
best I could come up with for a definition for "saia" is some sort of
fabric, probably wool but possibly silk, woven in a diagonal pattern. Sounds
like twill, but it's hard to say for sure. I don't know what the San
Giovanni reference means(like that of San Giovanni? perhaps that district of
Florence was known for producing twill fabric?). Just guesses on my part.

The other part you were asking about reads "She really needs it because it's
not the season for wearing gowns with a hood, and [with such a cloak] she'll
be able to wear a lighter gown." The important part I picked up from the
Italian is "...che` non e` tempo allora di portare le cioppe: e poi potra`
portar la cotta." I suspect that "le cioppe" is what is meant by "gowns with
a hood", since cioppe were heavier garments worn in the winter that covered
up the wearer pretty much from head to toe. I've never seen or read of an
example of a cioppa with a hood, though, but again that could be the result
of a translator who is not familiar with the details of clothing from this
time. I've seen paintings of mantles ("mantello") with hoods, but that is a
different garment from the cioppa, or so is my assumption. The "cotta" is
the "lighter gown" that is referred to; this was a gamurra-type dress, i.e.,
an underdress, but in a lighter fabric for summer wear.

Most of my knowledge of the Italian terms for items of clothing comes from
Herald's and Collier-Frick's books. These are really just my thoughts, and I
know there is some debate on what exactly constitutes a cioppa, a giornea,
etc. JMO, YMMV, etc. ;-) Somebody with a better knowledge of Italian may be
able to shed more light on this.

Hope this helps!
--Maestra Giuliana Salviati


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glendora" <gmraby@...>
To: <Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 11:17 AM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Has anyone read Selected Letters of
Alessandra Strozzi


>I thought I would ask here first if anyone has read
> the bilingual edition of "Selected Letters of
> Alessandra Strozzi", translated by Heather Gregory.
> They are mostly a mothers letters to her sons, but
> there are some mention of fabric, flax etc.  But my
> question is on letter #34 when Alessandra is lobbying
> for $ for matierial for a cloak for her
> daughter-in-law, the translated version states this:
>
> ". . . she'd like to make herself a cloak of black
> Milanese twill . . .  She really needs it because it's
> not the season for wearing gowns with a hood . . ."
> (215)
>
> So what is Milanese twill?  And what is a gown with a
> hood?
>
> Now I am new to Italian Ren, but I have not seen any
> pictures gowns with hoods?
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Magdalena

Think sports bra. It should be holding your breasts against the chest not
push up. Florentine does not have the Elizabethan bust line shape.
Imagine an ace bandage wrapped around your bust and holding you breasts in.
There will be cleavage and lift but not melons (or oranges) on a platter. I
am a 44D I did not get the chin shelf with my dress.

Lyse
Need to make a new dress

-----Original Message-----

Well, I'm a 34F/G and unless I squish straight in, I have a chin
rest.  As always, your mileage may vary.  Perhaps I am squishing
*too* much ...  HOw compressed should the breast be?

Jerusha

At 11:00 AM 5/5/2005, Giuliana wrote:
>The "cloak of black Milanese twill" is translated from the Italian "una
>giornea di saia nera melanese per questo San Giovanni." "Una giornea" is the
>garment that is generally considered to be a tabard-like overdress, with
>open sides and usually open center front. If you're not a costuming expert,
>you might translate this as a cloak. "Di saia nera melanese", I would
>translate as "of black Milanese [fabric - possibly twill]". I looked up
>"saia" in both Jaqueline Herald's and Carole Collier-Frick's books, and the
>best I could come up with for a definition for "saia" is some sort of
>fabric, probably wool but possibly silk, woven in a diagonal pattern. Sounds
>like twill, but it's hard to say for sure. I don't know what the San
>Giovanni reference means(like that of San Giovanni? perhaps that district of
>Florence was known for producing twill fabric?). Just guesses on my part.

Now, my Italian is a tad rusty, but it used to be fluent, from my having
lived in Florence.  "per questo San Giovanni" translates to "for this San
Giovanni".  S. Giovanni is a major holiday celebrated in Florence, as S.
Giovanni (St. John the Baptist) is the patron saint of the city.  IIRC, it
falls on June 22.

This would be an appropriate interpretation based on the next comment that
you quote, "...che` non e` tempo allora di portare le cioppe: e poi potra`
portar la cotta."  I translate this as "that it isn't the time now to wear
cioppas, and could possibly wear the cotta."  Cotta, in Italian, means
"cut", as in the ecclesiastical white overbit that otherwise looks like a
surplice, but shorter.  I will defer to those who have done more research
into Italian costume history, but I'd suspect that they are not talking
about a gamurra.  Perhaps, running full circle, they mean a short cape or
other short overgarment.  I've never seen a depiction of such a creature,
but that doesn't mean they didn't have such a summer garment.

Does this help at all, or just further muddy the waters?

Mary Taran


--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 - Release Date: 5/4/2005

Susan Farmer wrote:

>>I wear something like a 40D in a bra and have no difficulty with this
>>style.  Ditto one of my friends who wears about a 40_G_.  Basically,
>>they will end up more up than they would on a smaller-busted woman, but
>>they should not form a chin rest.  As far as I can tell, the secret is
>>mostly getting just the right amount of fabric between the shoulder
>>straps, cutting the armholes very neatly, and controlling bias stretch
>>.  The seam should _not_ cut across the lower bust, it should be under
>>the breasts regardless of size.   That may mean you can't cut the
>>
>>
>bodice
>
>
>>_really_ sort, but that's the essence of fitting-- cut the garment to
>>fit the body.
>>
>>
>
>Well, I'm a 34F/G and unless I squish straight in, I have a chin
>rest.  As always, your mileage may vary.  Perhaps I am squishing
>*too* much ...  HOw compressed should the breast be?
>
>

Well, how long is a piece of string?  I guess compressed enough to keep
them in place and control movement, but not so compressed you can't breathe.

The thing is that the idea isn't so much to push the breasts in any
given direction, but to distribute them-- so "straight in" is pretty
much it.

--
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
-----------------------------

>> I don't know what the San
>>Giovanni reference means(like that of San Giovanni? perhaps that district
>>of
>>Florence was known for producing twill fabric?). Just guesses on my part.
>
> Now, my Italian is a tad rusty, but it used to be fluent, from my having
> lived in Florence.  "per questo San Giovanni" translates to "for this San
> Giovanni".  S. Giovanni is a major holiday celebrated in Florence, as S.
> Giovanni (St. John the Baptist) is the patron saint of the city.  IIRC, it
> falls on June 22.

Ah, yes, that makes much more sense! Thanks! I think the feast day is June
24, though. =)

>Cotta, in Italian, means
> "cut", as in the ecclesiastical white overbit that otherwise looks like a
> surplice, but shorter.  I will defer to those who have done more research
> into Italian costume history, but I'd suspect that they are not talking
> about a gamurra.  Perhaps, running full circle, they mean a short cape or
> other short overgarment.  I've never seen a depiction of such a creature,
> but that doesn't mean they didn't have such a summer garment.
>
> Does this help at all, or just further muddy the waters?
>
> Mary Taran

Herald and Collier-Frick are pretty clear that a cotta was a lightweight
summer gown for women, of similar but somewhat fuller cut than a gamurra. It
was usually made of silk rather than wool, hence the lighter weight.They
both cite a record of such a gown in the trousseau of Nannina de' Medici
(and Herald has some other examples), so that seems pretty solid. I am not
familiar with the ecclesiastical garment that you mentioned, it's an
interesting thought but I've never seen any examples of what you describe in
women's clothing of the time.

Grazie!
--Giuliana

Thanks, actually the waters can't get any muddier:-)

Magdalena
--- Mary Taran <marytaran@...> wrote:
> At 11:00 AM 5/5/2005, Giuliana wrote:
> >The "cloak of black Milanese twill" is translated
> from the Italian "una
> >giornea di saia nera melanese per questo San
> Giovanni." "Una giornea" is the
> >garment that is generally considered to be a
> tabard-like overdress, with
> >open sides and usually open center front. If you're
> not a costuming expert,
> >you might translate this as a cloak. "Di saia nera
> melanese", I would
> >translate as "of black Milanese [fabric - possibly
> twill]". I looked up
> >"saia" in both Jaqueline Herald's and Carole
> Collier-Frick's books, and the
> >best I could come up with for a definition for
> "saia" is some sort of
> >fabric, probably wool but possibly silk, woven in a
> diagonal pattern. Sounds
> >like twill, but it's hard to say for sure. I don't
> know what the San
> >Giovanni reference means(like that of San Giovanni?
> perhaps that district of
> >Florence was known for producing twill fabric?).
> Just guesses on my part.
>
> Now, my Italian is a tad rusty, but it used to be
> fluent, from my having
> lived in Florence.  "per questo San Giovanni"
> translates to "for this San
> Giovanni".  S. Giovanni is a major holiday
> celebrated in Florence, as S.
> Giovanni (St. John the Baptist) is the patron saint
> of the city.  IIRC, it
> falls on June 22.
>
> This would be an appropriate interpretation based on
> the next comment that
> you quote, "...che` non e` tempo allora di portare
> le cioppe: e poi potra`
> portar la cotta."  I translate this as "that it
> isn't the time now to wear
> cioppas, and could possibly wear the cotta."  Cotta,
> in Italian, means
> "cut", as in the ecclesiastical white overbit that
> otherwise looks like a
> surplice, but shorter.  I will defer to those who
> have done more research
> into Italian costume history, but I'd suspect that
> they are not talking
> about a gamurra.  Perhaps, running full circle, they
> mean a short cape or
> other short overgarment.  I've never seen a
> depiction of such a creature,
> but that doesn't mean they didn't have such a summer
> garment.
>
> Does this help at all, or just further muddy the
> waters?
>
> Mary Taran
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.5 -
> Release Date: 5/4/2005
>
>
>



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I'm suspecting that "cotta" is exactly cognate with the French "cote" or any of
its variant spellings.
I. Marc Carlson has a list of 'cotte' variant linked somewhere on his 'some
clothing of the middle ages' website.
Cote, by itself, in the French/lowlands/English records, is like saying dress in
modern times; it doesn't narrow down the style worth anything.

Since the two sources mentioned below use cotta to name fairly different
garments, I'm suspecting that cotta is a term that similarly covers a lot of
ground at various time & places.

Ann in CT

> > Cotta, in Italian, means
> > "cut", as in the ecclesiastical white overbit that otherwise looks like a
> > surplice, but shorter.
> >
> > Mary Taran
>
> Herald and Collier-Frick are pretty clear that a cotta was a lightweight
> summer gown for women, of similar but somewhat fuller cut than a gamurra. It
> was usually made of silk rather than wool, hence the lighter weight.They
> both cite a record of such a gown in the trousseau of Nannina de' Medici
> (and Herald has some other examples), so that seems pretty solid. I am not
> familiar with the ecclesiastical garment that you mentioned, it's an
> interesting thought but I've never seen any examples of what
> you describe in
> women's clothing of the time.
>
> --Giuliana

The skirts come to a point under the center bust, whic I don't think
is period (but I may be wrong). The simplicity Pattern doesn't
actually have a chemise, it just fakes one.
I'm not too sure about a different underskirt.

Gwen

--- In
Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "cassandracressy"
<pattirollo@h...> wrote:
> I know I have LOTS of questions about Italian Rens.  The lastest is
> this: if I took the pattern for the square front bodice from
> the 'Everafter' pattern doctored it a bit would it come close to a
> period dress??? I am trying to get a dress ready to wear to Crown
at
> the end of the month. I thought if I extended the side front under
the
> arms to just past the side and angled it a bit and narrowed the
> shoulder straps it might work.  I won't be using a corset but I
have
> discovered some wonderfully stiff stuff called flexi firm.  I found
it
> in the craft section of my local fabric store. It stays stiff even
when
> washed. I will still use metal stays along the lacing line just to
help
> keep it VERY firm.
> The last question for now is: I have read a few articles about
dressing
> Italian Ren. but am a little confused.  I know there is something
like
> a chemise that is worn under the dress.  But I also have noticed
that
> in many of the paintings that there is a different coloured skirt
under
> the over dress. Is this a completely separate under dress with a
bodice
> or is it attached to the over skirt??
> Ok I think that's it for now.  And thank you to anyone who can help
me.
> Cassandra

You would have to do much Doctoring to make that pattern Period. You would
do better if you got the Period Patterns #41 and did some Doctoring to that
pattern. There are several parts to an Italian Renaissance dress.
1. Camicia or Chemise
2. Gamurra- Underdress
3. Giormea- Overdress or like a Tabard

The dresses did not open down the front like The Ever After dress. The neck
was square in the front and round in the back. It could also open to a V in
the front but it did not open all the way down the skirt.
Here are several links that may help you out some.
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/portfolio.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/cadieuxx/florentine.html

Here is a link to where you can get the PP#41 for about $8.00 less then
other places.
http://sykesutler.home.att.net/ppbrand.htm

I am new to the Italian but I ran into this Lady that sure has helped me
out. I could be wrong but by what I have seen and been told I think and hope
I am not.
Thanks
Teresa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gwen" <undiecat@...>
To: <Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:14 PM
Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] Re: it's me again


> The skirts come to a point under the center bust, whic I don't think
> is period (but I may be wrong). The simplicity Pattern doesn't
> actually have a chemise, it just fakes one.
> I'm not too sure about a different underskirt.
>
> Gwen
>
> --- In
> Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, "cassandracressy"
> <pattirollo@h...> wrote:
> > I know I have LOTS of questions about Italian Rens.  The lastest is
> > this: if I took the pattern for the square front bodice from
> > the 'Everafter' pattern doctored it a bit would it come close to a
> > period dress??? I am trying to get a dress ready to wear to Crown
> at
> > the end of the month. I thought if I extended the side front under
> the
> > arms to just past the side and angled it a bit and narrowed the
> > shoulder straps it might work.  I won't be using a corset but I
> have
> > discovered some wonderfully stiff stuff called flexi firm.  I found
> it
> > in the craft section of my local fabric store. It stays stiff even
> when
> > washed. I will still use metal stays along the lacing line just to
> help
> > keep it VERY firm.
> > The last question for now is: I have read a few articles about
> dressing
> > Italian Ren. but am a little confused.  I know there is something
> like
> > a chemise that is worn under the dress.  But I also have noticed
> that
> > in many of the paintings that there is a different coloured skirt
> under
> > the over dress. Is this a completely separate under dress with a
> bodice
> > or is it attached to the over skirt??
> > Ok I think that's it for now.  And thank you to anyone who can help
> me.
> > Cassandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well, with all your help and following the research you all sent me, I
finally  decided on a style.  I sat down and roughly drew a pattern
from this painting

http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html

I made the mock up and it fits just great.  Tomorrow I am going to put
it together. I am making those large sleeves as well.  I am lining them
in a plaid pattern with a plaid under skirt. The chemise will be in
cream with sleeves with cuffs.  Somehow I can't see me wearing the
sleeves that go with this type of chemise with out some sort of cuff.

My question this time is-did they use tapestry underskirts and for
bodice insets in this type of dress?  I have a beautiful piece of
tapestry that I would love to use.

I'll let you know how everything fits tomorrow.
Cassandra

http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/yourgarb/Caroline.htm
I believe this is a decent example of what the ever after dress is trying to
be.

Lyse
-----Original Message-----

The skirts come to a point under the center bust, whic I don't think
is period (but I may be wrong). The simplicity Pattern doesn't
actually have a chemise, it just fakes one.
I'm not too sure about a different underskirt.

Gwen

cassandracressy wrote:

>Well, with all your help and following the research you all sent me, I
>finally  decided on a style.  I sat down and roughly drew a pattern
>from this painting
>
>http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor6.html
>
>
>
<snip!>

>My question this time is-did they use tapestry underskirts and for
>bodice insets in this type of dress?  I have a beautiful piece of
>tapestry that I would love to use.
>
>

I'm not sure what you mean by "bodice inset"  This style of gown, afaik
is worn over a full undergown, not a seperate underskirt.

--
Adele de Maisieres

-----------------------------
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
-----------------------------