Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
Indo-Eurasian_research
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the lives of others. Take me there.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
BMAC-horse/chariot   Message List  
Reply Message #5225 of 13688 |
Re: [Indo-Eurasia] Re: BMAC-horse/chariot

Dear Colleagues,

Below I copy, with his permission, a private message from David Anthony
that offers a detailed description of the horse and vehicle remains at
Gonur Tepe.

I should also mention that David has just turned over the manuscript of
his magnum opus to Princeton University Press. It will be entitled
__The Horse, the Wheel, and Language__ (they're still bickering over the
subtitle). I've been looking forward to this book for at least
half-a-dozen years, and I'm sure that it will be of signal importance.

Best wishes,

Victor

========

The Gonur Tepe horse burial probably dates about 2100-2000 calBC, the
earliest phase of the Bactria-Margiana civilization, and it was a foal,
not a mature horse, that had been decapitated (with the body, not the
head deposited in the grave, the opposite of an Indo-Iranian sacrifice).
The same grave contained the contorted bodies of I think I remember 10
humans, who apparently were killed and toppled over while they stood on
the floor of the grave. There was also a whole dog, and a whole camel.
One of the humans fell on top of of a small 4-wheeled wagon with solid
wooden wheels and bronze rim-guards or proto-tires that looked like
U-shaped clamps, nailed into the sides of the wheels. The vehicle is not
a chariot, but a solid-wooden wheeled wagon, and a very small one. The
grave is a brick-built chamber in the middle of a cemetery of
brick-built grave chambers, and was thought to have accompanied or been
a sacrifice attending one or more of the interments in a nearby elite
brick chamber with multiple interments deposited sequentially at
different times. One of those interments had a staff with a metal
horse-head pommel on the end. But these ritual and symbolic appearances
constitute the only evidence for horses at Gonur--there are no horse
bones outside of this one grave, and horses were not eaten. The local
wild equids, onagers, were occasionally hunted and eaten, but not
horses. I think the horses at Gonur came from the north, from the
steppes, and were introduced at just this time, about 2100-2000 BC. They
probably were a valuable trade commodity. The grave near Sarazm in the
Zeravshan valley at Zardcha Khalifa contained BMAC objects and northern
cheekpieces for chariotry, and northern steppe pottery appeared at
Gonur. I think the horse at Gonur represents not local domestication (
there were no wild horses to domesticate anywhere in Central Asia!) but
the beginning of a horse trade conducted by visiting steppe people who
soon turned into raiders, mercenaries, and finally conquerors.





Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:29 pm

vmair@...
Send Email Send Email

Message #5225 of 13688 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

... Dear Francesco, No, sorry -- hope i didnt give that impression. To my understanding, there is no horse/chariot in the BMAC... the 'chariots' (Sarianidi's...
cpthornto@...
dere1or
Offline Send Email
Oct 17, 2006
10:07 pm

Dear Chris (and Trudy), My apologies for having confused Sarianidi's four-wheeled cart/wagon for a two-wheeled chariot. What I actually had in mind was,...
Francesco Brighenti
frabrig
Offline Send Email
Oct 18, 2006
10:44 am

... Here is an image of the artifact: http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ucb/axe01.jpg "Shaft-hole battle axe of copper alloy. (New York: Metropolitan Museum...
Francesco Brighenti
frabrig
Offline Send Email
Oct 18, 2006
12:49 pm

Many thanks Francesco (and Trudy, and Chris) for updating us on the matter of BMAC horses and 'chariots'. I thought that we would have to update our...
Michael Witzel
witzel_michael
Offline Send Email
Oct 18, 2006
1:24 pm

Dear Colleagues, Below I copy, with his permission, a private message from David Anthony that offers a detailed description of the horse and vehicle remains at...
Victor Mair
vmair@...
Send Email
Oct 18, 2006
8:41 pm

I am a little confused. If horse appears in Bactria Margiana around 2100BC, what is the proble?There would have been a problem if the date was say 3000BC. ...
Rajesh Kochhar
rkochhar2000
Offline Send Email
Oct 19, 2006
9:11 am

Dear Prof. Kochhar, ... The problem is that some scholars, starting with Bernard Sergent (_Genèse de l'Inde_, Paris, Payot, 1997, pp. 161ff.), maintain that ...
Francesco Brighenti
frabrig
Offline Send Email
Oct 19, 2006
12:31 pm

It is one thing to have an image of an equid (horse, onager, whatever) and another thing to actually breed & train them. The presence of one slaughtered foal...
Trudy Kawami
corvina_9
Offline Send Email
Oct 19, 2006
3:13 pm

What Trudy says about the absence of horses in BMAC is in perfect agreement with what David Anthony said in the message I conveyed to the List yesterday. As...
Victor Mair
vmair@...
Send Email
Oct 19, 2006
4:24 pm

Dear Listmembers, ... From A. Parpola's paper "The Naaasatyas, the Chariot and Proto-Aryan Religion", available online at ...
Francesco Brighenti
frabrig
Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2006
2:29 pm

Dear Francesco, Reading what Victor (also David Anthony), Trudy, and Chris have already written, I don't think you'd get an argument from them on your ... The...
Steve Farmer
yukifarmer
Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2006
3:07 pm

One of the problems with trying to understand a culture from its physical remains is the context of those physical remains. Alas, most of the metal...
Trudy Kawami
corvina_9
Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2006
3:31 pm

Yahoo did odd things to the formatting of Trudy Kawami's recent message, which responded to this post by Francesco: ...
Steve Farmer
yukifarmer
Offline Send Email
Oct 20, 2006
3:47 pm

... I'm far from being an apologist of Parpola's methods. I don't care what he makes with the Assyrians vis-à-vis the Vedic Aryans. I quoted from Parpola's...
Francesco Brighenti
frabrig
Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2006
12:47 pm

Dear Trudy, ... You will be even more surprised in getting to know that, in his paper "Pre-Proto-Iranians of Afghanistan as Initiators of S'aakta Tantrism: On...
Francesco Brighenti
frabrig
Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2006
7:34 pm

Actually, Francesco, I tried to read the article but gave up to save my health! There were so many leaps of faith and oversimplifications that I felt my blood...
Trudy Kawami
corvina_9
Offline Send Email
Oct 22, 2006
12:08 am

Absence of evidence is not a proof of evidence.Even if we cannot find horse remains in BMAC, it does not prove anything. The key fact is that the Indian...
Rajesh Kochhar
rkochhar2000
Offline Send Email
Oct 21, 2006
12:45 pm
Advanced

Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help