Just received a message the server has been replaced, but no data was
restored.  So it will be another few days before I restore the lists
back to it.

However, before I do that, I want to ask folks what they think about
eGroups?

Thanks
   JohnO

In a message dated 10/07/2000 12:31:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
morrisjeff@... writes:

>
>  Perhaps that was true in the past, but with mailing lists such as this
one,
>  it's no longer the *single avenue*. Plus, there's no reason why a message
>  from the President can't be passed to the membership via one message sent
to
>
>  the clubs and relayed through the newsletters.
>
I may be wrong about this,(Consult you nearest "friendly" lawyer) but I think
that there are legal requirements as to contact to members of a corporation
that email dosen't fill. This may not be feasable for that reason.
                                                         John Syms

In a message dated 10/06/2000 1:12:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
MicheleSol@... writes:

> I have no problems with Bruce's suggestion of upping the dues to $3.00 a
>  year.  I always was surprised by the extremely low cost of membership.  I
>  know our chapter voted to raise our dues by one dollar and I don't
remember
>  many complaints.  A very small increase can really add up when there are
>  enough people.
>
>  Is there an address (I don't I still have Byron's original e-mail any
more)
>  for contributions?  And folks, won't these contributions be tax
deductible?
>
>  If people contribute additional dollars, can you issue them a tax receipt
> for
>  the deductions?
>
>  Thanks,
>
Given the financial situation of the guild, I think it may be appropriate for
an even higher rate, say five or ten dollars?Or maybe instead of an optional
subscription to the Costumer's Quarterly, have it be a part of being a member
in the guild, with the dues being raised appropriately (15-20$).
                                                         John Syms

Welcome aboard to the Stringers.  I had no idea they had tried to run
chapter at one time.

Hokay:

Since some discussion is taking place on the BOD list and some here, I'll
just do all my discussion on this list and be done with it.

Some interesting points were made between Ken and Jeff.

1.  First of all, though, a big THANK YOU! to the anonymous donor, whoever
you are, and bless yo'r heart!   That takes a heck of a lot of pressure off
already.

====================================

2.  While I disagree with Ken about whether it is was a good use of funds to
get the CQ back on track, given the inherent unstableness of the Guild for
so long, I can't necessarily fault the logic.  The problem was the string of
editors fell victim the the Curse of the Quarterly.  In retrospect, maybe it
was a bad decision, but like the man sez, let's just move on.

================================================

3.  On making the CQ part of the membership benefits, I agree in principle.
HOWEVER,  there are a couple of realities, and Jeff's touched on them
already.

A.  Depending on the local chapter's dues, a sudden increase could
ultimately hurt them because some people will be a bit reluctant to suddenly
have to shell out possibly  as much as double the amount of their current
dues.  That could be as much as $30, in some places.  It's going to be very
hard to justify that kind of increase.  Expectations are going to rise,
pertaining to perceived actual benefits.  Given  the "I'm too busy to
contribute" excuses Nora and I heard, regarding the Annual, I can't see
chapter officers doing much more to satisfy those expectations.

While a raise in dues might discourage the more casual members, it might
draw the peope who actually care to support the ICG.  Granted, this would
greatly reduce membership in the short term.   Then the issue becomes making
their memberships worthwhile.

B.  The CQ is/should be/could be the one central benefit an ICG member has.
Jeff has raised 2 very valid points.  The first is the content.  If Carl
doesn't get people to contribute, he has no content.  And frankly, while
it's an amusing threat to publish  reports on Carl's grandkids, the vast
majority of subscribers would quickly believe this a waste of their money.
Second of all, I agree that for expense purposes, the mailings necessitates
having to send the CQ via Bulk Mail.  However, with the SLCG's experiences
in the past, and my own experiences from another club I ran, I ABSOLUTELY
HATE BULK MAIL!!!!!!!!!!!   It's slow and stuff frequently gets lost.

Reiterating what Jeff said, invariably, at least half of our members never
received their CQs, if and when they were actually put on the rolls (thanks
to an incredible records fiasco that started back in 1992 and went on for
years).   After 7+ years of CQs never getting to us or members never being
on the ICG rolls in order to get them, Nora and I could no longer in good
faith recommend subscribing to the CQ because they got bupkis for their
money.  (My blood pressure is a bit higher just thinking about it again).

So, I see a potentially viscious circle here again.  We can't have
subscribers without the CQ, but we can't have a CQ without content.  (In the
past, if we didn't have content, the previous editors didn't publish.)   If
the mailings don't get to all the members, then people stop subscribing,
hence less potential content.


==========================================

4.  Quarterly membership updates must be given to Carl or whoever does the
mailings WITHOUT FAIL, and in timely fashion.

===========================================

5.  I agree with Ken -- while we and the SLUTS don't currently subscribe(but
will do so when the CQ is up again), I don't like the idea of electronic
distribution, despite its appeal.  The reasons he gives would be exactly
what would happen.   And let's factor in that the person(s) responsible for
distribution would have to start factoring in wear and tear on their own
machines for printing, making copies, etc.  More expense.
Again, the content vs. value debate could poison certain chapters with
members who are rather casual about their involvement.

=========================================

So, what I see here is a few things have to happen -- some are already in
the works, and some I've suggested already.  First, no matter what, the CQ
has got to get out on a reasonable time schedule, which Carl is pretty close
to doing.  Second, we need more chapters to contribute content, even if it's
a one paragraph report on what they've been up to.  Third, there has to be
some sort of oversight of the delivery to confirm that CQs have been
received.  We didn't receive the chapter CQ unitl I actually inquired about
it.  Either Carl or an assistant to Carl should contact each of the chapters
via snail mail or e-mail (ideally) and confirm whether subscribers have
received their copies.  If we let this accursed Bulk Mail ("Slowly I
turned....step by.... " oops, sorry) cycle happen again, we'll be right back
where we started.  Fourth, as intimated by Byron, we must promote the Guild
and especially the CQ.

If, at first, we have to have a stable of writers to try to do something,
then let me be the first to volunteer to be a regular contributer.  In
addition to doing stuff specifically for the CQ, I will be funneling
articles I've had already published in the Scarlet Letter.  Surely those of
you who have a newsletter could do the same?  In this way, chapters could
make their contributions to the ICG publication?  Even if newsletters are
being traded, I'm betting most members don't get to see the newsletters from
other chapters, so the content would be new to the CQ readers.

Once the CQ has a solid base of articles, we can confidently promote it at
cons and online.

The ICG list will never completely suffice as a replacement for the CQ, if
for no other reason than that no one wants to always sit at their computers.
Some people in the boonies or other countries or of relative low economic
status might not have a computer.  In any case, these people would prefer to
have something they can hold in their hands and share with others.

Bruce

Dear All,

Western Canadian chapter has had an arrangement with the last few
Quarterly editors to receive one camera-ready copy of the newsletter and
print and distribute it ourselves.  Admittedly, we are a very small
chapter, so the investment has been minimal, but it might be a solution
for other chapters to consider.

My 2 cents' worth.

-- Katherine Jepson
Secretary, WCCG
Co-Chair, CC 19

In a message dated 10/06/2000 10:30:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
kenw@... writes:

<< The CQ is, as it has always been, the single avenue of communication from
  the organization directly to it's members. (It's more than that, of course,
  or it could/should be, but that *is* one of it's functions...)>>

Perhaps that was true in the past, but with mailing lists such as this one,
it's no longer the *single avenue*. Plus, there's no reason why a message
from the President can't be passed to the membership via one message sent to
the clubs and relayed through the newsletters.


< The ICG is the only organization I have ever belonged to where the members
can opt not to ever hear from the organization. Should something come up
which is of
  pressing importance (such as the current fiscal crisis), there is no other
  way for the ICG to contact all of our members that doesn't involve someone
  (potentially not even a member of the ICG) passing the message along.>>

And the problem with this is...?

Again, the mailing list has proven to be very effective thus far. Bruce Mai,
for example, has already passed the original message to all available SLCG
members and asked people for suggestions. I'd also note that Byron's message
came through this venue, not the CQ.

And since this seems to be a sore point, the reason the SLCG made subscribing
to the CQ optional was because we felt it was unfair to charge our members
for a publication that never came out and couldn't get its subscription list
in a proper order. We had continuous battles trying to get the issues our
members were legally entitled to, even after the CQs started trickling out
again.

Jeff Morris
yadda yadda yadda
(it's morning and I haven't had my coffee yet, sue me)

Hi Everyone!

Thanks to John O's help, I'm finally receiving the list.  It will be nice to get
back in touch.

I haven't had much contact with the ICG in the last 10 years, but did run the
short lived chapter called the Confederates.  It looks like I walked in on a
running argument, so I'll keep my mouth shut about things I don't know  (BIG
surprise).  However, I do know that our chapter died because we had no way to
print and distribute a newsletter.  We didn't have a lot members, but none of
them paid dues.  In fact, in order to get started, my VP, Davette & I  paid the
national dues for several others who were always
"going to send that in next week" or "give it to us the next time we saw each
other."  Our group was spread over most of Tennessee, Alabama & Georgia, hence
the name, and phone calls or meetings were virtually impossible.  We kept it
going as long as we could by paying for printing and postage out of our own
pockets.  However, after Davette and I both had children, we didn't have as much
ready cash and TIME to blow on things that others didn't find important enough
to support.  The group fell apart.

Personally, I think this LIST is the best possible mode of sharing information.
Naturally, not all costumers have internet accessibility, but the number of
unconnected households in America is rapidly decreasing.  Here, I hope to enjoy
chatting and sharing ideas with other costumers all across the country instead
of being stuck in my own little geographical vortex.  I do run two other lists,
Costumers & Charlotte2004Masquerade, both on E-Groups, but one is to broad,
inviting people who do dance & theater
costumes as well as SciFi con Masques and the other is too narrow, trying to
concentrate on people who want to voice concerns about how costuming events will
be handled in Charlotte if (I mean WHEN) they win the WorldCon bid.

Let me take one more moment of your time to introduce myself.  Many of you will
know my husband & I simply by our few WorldCon presentations.  Most will not
have a clue (or a care) who the Stringers are.  We did "Beauty & the Beast" as
Novice in '86 Atlanta, then "Paradise Lost" in New Orleans '89(?) and finally
"Costumer's Nightmare" in Orlando '92(?).  Since then, there just hasn't been a
WorldCon close enough for us to drive to.  If you feel so inclined, you can see
a lot of our favorite costumes, both the
ones we made and those made by others at www.cdc.net/~stringer .  Jeff & I were
honored to be the Masquerade GOH at Archon last year and had a great time
getting to know to Sheila & Scott Corwin, the Petingers <Stupid note:  My Spell
checker suggested "Pettifoggers" for them>  and many of the SLUTS.

On JUDGING

I would like to send my personal thanks to Janet Wilson Anderson for her last
post about Judging.  I'm very interested in anything and everything that the ICG
has to say on the subject.  If (WHEN) Charlotte wins the bid, I will buy the
book.  During the meanwhile,  I would like to know all the ins & outs of what
the ICG expects of a WorldCon judging panel so that I can set it up and instruct
them accordingly.

Archon was my first time judging a masque in many years, (I normally compete,
DUH).  I cannot tell you how impressed I was by the way Sheila and Scott ran
their show.  Their suggested judging method was the same as what Maurine Dorris
had taught me many years ago.  Just score 1-10 as you watch and make notes. 
Pull all the pics of all contestants that got 9's & 10's.

When I was asked to set up and run the Masque for LibertyCon (a small
Chattanooga local convention) I really overcomplicated the judging!  What a
major MESS!  I tried to get the judges to score 1-10 on three different areas,
Workmanship, Presentation & Overall Concept.  That gave each contestant a
possible 30.  All the awards would be given strictly on the numbers.  The person
with the highest total points got Best in Show.  The person with the Highest
total Workmanship and Presentation got best in those
categories.  The person with the best Concept score got Judges Choice.  The
contestant with the highest numbers got the Best in each of the categories,
Recreation, Fantasy, SciFi or Humor as selected by the contestant on their entry
form.  It was a MAJOR malfunction.  The judges didn't understand what the heck
they were doing.  It took forever to do all the math.  One Judge started giving
high numbers at the beginning of the show and then got stricter.  Another did
the opposite.  Some didn't have a clue.  Bless
her heart, when Marine got through laughing at me, she just said "I told you so!
Keep it Simple Stupid!"   I have deferred to my elders and the more experienced
ever since.

Hugs,
Susan

I've been moving AlterYears so haven't been on line except for quick business
visits in a while.

New address for AlterYears: 8960 E. Huntington Dr. San Gabriel, CA 91175
Phone 626-614-9400, fax 626 614-9499

After painting and cleaning and fixing up the 30 year old converted house we
just moved into, I'm back trying to catch up on my personal life (the new store
has a barrel ceiling and even a fireplace in the main retail space and classroom
space and it's next to a quilt shop and a bead shop and a doll house shop and
are we glad we've moved???? Darn right!!! Am I exhausted?? you bet!)

Still more thoughts on judging (and you thought you'd get away without my two
bytes worth...)

Over the years I've heard just about every suggestion possible to speed up the
judging process.  Here's my list of the things that actually do help.

1) Appoint a Head judge.  This person's opinion doesn't count for more than
anyone else's, but this person  should be VERY experienced in how  the judging
process works and be the administrative leader. This person should know how to
keep things going, to declare consensus when it's reached and "gently" bully the
indecisive into a decision. The more inexperienced the rest of the panel, the
more important it is to have some one in charge of getting the process
expedited. I know, in our fiercely egalitarian
group, this suggestion will offend somebody. But call them Chief Administrator
if you don't like Head judge.  If you don't have someone moving the process
along, it will take forever. If  no one on the panel steps forward or is
appointed, an experienced judges clerk can perform the function. In this case
the clerk must be VERY careful not to overstep the bounds and offer opinions,
but merely guide the process.

2) Have the list of Suggested Award Titles handy. In my experience, it takes far
longer to come up with appropriate award titles than it does to decide who gets
what.  The list is in the appendix of the Masquerade Handbook, and yes, I do
plan another edition of that invaluable text shortly after the first of the year
(after the new bar code and inventory system goes in, the catalog goes to the
printer and the website is updated  - so don't bug me!) If you want a copy
before then, write me at 8553 E. Village
Lane, Rosemead CA 91770 and I'll mail you one - an SASE will speed things up.
No, it's not on disk so I can't email it.

3) Have a fast competent judges clerk.   The clerk sorts the entry forms by
division, in order of scores as the judging proceeds. In the judging room, the
clerk hands the judges each division's forms and polaroids  in score order. We
sort into yes/no/maybe piles and start assigning titles as quickly as we can,
preferably starting with Best in Show and then Best in Class and then within
each division as we agree on a title.   I prefer a system where each entry has a
3x5 card made up for it in advance with
division, title and credits. As we decide titles, they are written on the bottom
of the 3x5 card. The cards are put in order at the end of judging each division,
so we don't try to determine order of award at the same time as we dream up a
title. The cards are numbered after the award order is determined, so they can't
get out of order. The clerk is writing up the list as we go; the 3x5 cards are
handed in order to whoever is reading the awards, and returned to the clerk for
the final list and preparation of
the award certificates. In my experience the paperwork always takes longer than
the judging itself (hence the need for a fast clerk). The presence of a computer
slows things down even more. If you wait on certificates, it will take even
longer. Hand out ribbons to the winners and give/mail the certificates later.

If you have a Head judge, it is that person's responsibility to make sure the
card has the correct title on it and that the cards are in the order the judges
have agreed. I usually outrun my judges' clerk so they have to be fast and
organized. This is not a job for a newby.  Also it is very important that the
clerk know that they are NOT a judge - a clerk should not be offering opinions,
just clerking. Nor should the Masquerade Director be offering opinions.

4) Don't appoint wishy-washy judges!!!  And likewise, appoint judges who can see
more than their own point of view.  This is really hard, I know, but the longest
judging sessions I've been in on were those where more than one judge was too
nice and couldn't bear to leave any entry out and had to find something
wonderful to say about even the most dreadful entry. The next worst session was
one where three of the four judges were adamant that the awards would be the way
they wanted and no other - and of course,
all three had different opinions. I finally threw up my hands and suggested that
each judge award a judge's choice to the entry each most preferred and we gave
everyone else "Honored for excellence".  Took over an hour to judge a 12 entry
masquerade!

Knowledgeable judges are essential, but decisive ones even more so! An ability
to decide what you like quickly, to articulate why you like something and an
ability to see another person's perspective are, to my way of thinking, even
more important than great sewing technique.

5) Get all the judges together beforehand and decide what the judging procedure
will be. If the Masquerade Director doesn't do it, the Head Judge should. Saves
a lot of time if all the judges know what the division system is, what kind of
awards they can give, what point scale you are all using, the yes/no/maybe pile
review system, etc. and anything special that con or MD wants you to judge (Best
Media, Best GOH-based entry, any special prizes etc.)

6)The maybe's can take more time than all the yeses combined, if you let them.
Do the maybe's last, since after you've awarded all the yeses, you've actually
set your standards for what gets recognized at that masquerade. Maybe's
generally get an award if a majority of the panel ( 2 of 3 usually) thinks they
should. If one judge really likes something and the others don't, the Head judge
can query what *exactly* the one judge liked about it, and a "Honored for
Excellence" can be given for that specific
element e.g. HFE for use of color, for use of humor, for wings etc. Since this
isn't about money, just ego and encouragement, why not?

7) Effective compromises are essential: HFE is certainly one that works most of
the time. If one judge really wants a costume to get an award better than HFE,
have that judge come up with a title and put that award last in the division
ranking. If necessary the Head Judge can point out that all the other awards
have the endorsement of at least the majority of the judges, but the minority
opinion is being recognized. Another compromise is "Best Concept" or "Most
Interesting Concept".  This works when everybody
likes it, but just can't define what "It" is that they like.

Also, if you have an entry and can't immediately reach a title for it or a
consensus on it, set it aside and go on to the next "yes" in the pile.
Oftentimes, going back to an entry after the rest have been judged puts the
entry into perspective and you can better identify what is or isn't award-worthy
about it. The more consensus you build early, the easier it is to reach
agreement on the harder ones later. Doing the ordering of the awards last means
that every award has been discussed and in my experience,
there is usually very little disagreement by the time the ordering takes place. 
A head judge can also point out that an hour after the awards are announced, no
one besides the contestant will even remember if  "Best BEM" was announced
before or after "Best Tech", so majority rule should determine any disagreements
in the announcing order.

8)How many awards you give also affects speed.  I don't have a hard and fast
rule, but generally I find about 35-40% of entries stand out in most
masquerades. I am much more generous to novices, less so to journeymen and
really hard on masters. I'm also much more generous at smaller cons, working up
to really hard at bigger/tougher events (I have never given a 10 in
international master's class competition so far!) I do find however that being
given a pre-set number of awards makes the judging harder, and
longer, since the judges engage in "frank and honest dialog" more vehemently,
the more restrictions they are given.

9) This will sound silly, but it should actually be number one if the masquerade
lasts longer than 45 minutes. Take the judges to the judging room via the
bathroom. If we stop on the way, we will be much happier and get things done a
lot faster and not have to stop in the middle. Give us fluids, munchies if
available and stay out of our way! The more a MD hovers, the slower the
process!!!

If you want more on judging and the process of getting it done, I have written a
lot about it in this digest which I believe is archived, and have an even more
comprehensive discussion in the Masquerade Handbook. SASE please for copies of
the article.  Comments and suggested innovations also welcome, either in this
forum or to me privately.


Janet Wilson Anderson
Nothing is written in stone except Rockumentation.....and remember, costuming is
too important to be taken seriously.

> While I can't argue the need to raise dues--and enforce
> people paying them--I have to disagree about requiring a sub
> to the CQ. While it's nice to see the CQ back on schedule, I
> have to question its purpose and effectiveness. What does it
> bring to the table?

The CQ is, as it has always been, the single avenue of communication from
the organization directly to it's members. (It's more than that, of course,
or it could/should be, but that *is* one of it's functions...) The ICG is
the only organization I have ever belonged to where the members can opt not
to ever hear from the organization. Should something come up which is of
pressing importance (such as the current fiscal crisis), there is no other
way for the ICG to contact all of our members that doesn't involve someone
(potentially not even a member of the ICG) passing the message along.

> Look at the latest one. Did any chapter
> really contribute anything meaningful? I know (he said
> guiltily) the SLUTS didn't. In my defense, it takes up a huge
> amount of time and energy just to get our newsletter out.
> Adding to that load can be daunting.

You're right; no chapter made a significant contribution to the last CQ.
That's not something the ICG has any real control over, so don't use it as a
reason not to provide the Quarterly as a benefit of membership. We do just
about everything short of literally twisting arms in an attempt to get
material for the Quarterly; it's my understanding that the last Quarterly is
representative of the contributions received. (Carl has stated that he will
print pictures of his grandkids if he doesn't have anything else to print.
Don't take that for an empty threat; I believe he will do just that, and in
a strange way, I support the idea.)

> I would like to add that I'm appalled that a group that's
> hosting a CC in two years--and that receives support from ICG
> chapters--can't be bothered to send in their fees. I know
> there's no *direct* connection between CC and the ICG, but it
> still bothers me quite a bit.

You think *you're* appalled? There's a lot of people (myself included) who
are probably starting to feel like we haven't been keeping ourselves very
well informed...

Ken Warren
Vice President, ICG

In a message dated Fri, 6 Oct 2000  6:50:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Ken
Warren" <kenw@...> writes:



<<Since the Quarterly seems to be back on schedule (barring suspension because
of lack of operating capital) I think we should require a subscription to
the Quarterly to be a part of every ICG member's membership benefits, since
it's the only method of communication that everyone (theoretically) has
access to. I also think that dues should be raised to cover the costs of
printing and mailing the Quarterly. And don't forget to factor in the cost
of overseas postage for our overseas members.>>

While I can't argue the need to raise dues--and enforce people paying them--I
have to disagree about requiring a sub to the CQ. While it's nice to see the CQ
back on schedule, I have to question its purpose and effectiveness. What does it
bring to the table? Look at the latest one. Did any chapter really contribute
anything meaningful? I know (he said guiltily) the SLUTS didn't. In my defense,
it takes up a huge amount of time and energy just to get our newsletter out.
Adding to that load can be daunting.

>I actually don't like the "electronic distribution" option very much.
Acrobat is arguably the best portable document format available, but it not
hard to create Acrobat files with a fairly wide range of problems. And
Distiller isn't cheap. Finally, how do we convince the chapters to
distribute the file (or a printed copy) too their members?>>

If someone wants the CQ in printed format, they can pay for the privilege. Can't
be simpler than that. And you don't print until the order is received and the
check cleared.

I would like to add that I'm appalled that a group that's hosting a CC in two
years--and that receives support from ICG chapters--can't be bothered to send in
their fees. I know there's no *direct* connection between CC and the ICG, but it
still bothers me quite a bit.

Jeff Morris
Secretary, St Louis Costumer's Guild
Editor, Scarlet Letter
Generally all-around fine person

I would not like to see this organization disbanded either.

Perhaps a membership drive is in order.

If my dues are up I would LOVE to pay them, however I don't know if they
are up or not.  Every other organization I am in tells me loud and clear
when I need to pay dues.

So who do I contact to find out if I owe dues?

Nova
    --
"Nothing is more despicable than respect based upon fear."
                                                   - Albert Camus


http://myweb.li.net/~nova/

> Being in debt for a while does not have to be a club-killer.
> It's not like we
> have a weekly payroll to meet. Lots of corporations operate
> in the red for
> years. We'll come up with something to pay back the Mami's.

I agree with this, but you need to understand that corporations operate in
the red by taking out loans for operating capital. We can't do that.

> Even if ICG can't afford to do much for a while, the
> corporation should
> continue to exist to maintain our hard-won nonprofit status.

Absolutely.

> The next question: What should we do for an alternative
> funding source?  Dues
> are not going to be enough to provide a margin of safety,
> even when they
> start coming in again. Perhaps an annual auction at Costume
> Con (or another,
> sooner event) of items donated by the chapters?

This will be controversial, I suspect, but what got us in this bind was
*not* a simple shortfall in revenues, per se. I.e. it's not really because
we miscalculated income vs. expenses. That miscalculation is at the end of a
chain of problems stretching back several years. It was A) the Quarterly not
coming out on time, B) chapters withholding funds because the Quarterly was
not coming out on time, and eventually C) the ICG allowing Quarterly
subscriptions to be optional.

Since the Quarterly seems to be back on schedule (barring suspension because
of lack of operating capital) I think we should require a subscription to
the Quarterly to be a part of every ICG member's membership benefits, since
it's the only method of communication that everyone (theoretically) has
access to. I also think that dues should be raised to cover the costs of
printing and mailing the Quarterly. And don't forget to factor in the cost
of overseas postage for our overseas members.

> Meanwhile, I like Carl and Elaine's idea of electronic
> distribution for the
> remaining committed issue of CQ. You can e-mail an attached
> file or post the
> file to the ICG web site and not even have to pay for mailing
> a disk.  I can
> read many file types. Adobe Acrobat .pdf would be good (if
> you have the
> creating software) since it is very compact and allows for
> magazine-style
> layouts with pictures. The reader is freeware.

I actually don't like the "electronic distribution" option very much.
Acrobat is arguably the best portable document format available, but it not
hard to create Acrobat files with a fairly wide range of problems. And
Distiller isn't cheap. Finally, how do we convince the chapters to
distribute the file (or a printed copy) too their members?

That said, I don't have a better idea. If we *do* use an electronic format,
I'm in favor of the Acrobat format.

Ken Warren
Vice President, ICG

Bruce & Dana are having problems getting messages through to eGroups, so
I'm forwarding Dana's comments on Elaine's posting.  -- JohnO

Bruce and Dana MacDermott wrote:
>         I am a bit confused.  We sent our chapter and ICG renewal
> money into GBACG.  According to what I believe I read, they are no
> longer active.  This means they did not send the ICG the money we sent
> them for the purpose of paying for the Quarterly and ICG membership.
> That is fraud.
>         The GBACG had better either refund all of my money, so I can
> join through a chapter that is not misrepresenting itself, or get off
> its butt and pay the money it collected to the ICG.  There is a legal
> issue here, and I am not at all pleased.
>         I also wonder whether the GBACG still can legally claim it has
> a tax exempt status.  And if it so claims.
>         I wonder just how much money has been fraudulently collected,
> and how many people think they are ICG members that are not.
>         This, of course goes for any other "chapter" that is playing
> the same game.  This is not funny.  This is not trivial.  And this
> should not be allowed to continue.
> Dana MacDermott

I have no problems with Bruce's suggestion of upping the dues to $3.00 a
year.  I always was surprised by the extremely low cost of membership.  I
know our chapter voted to raise our dues by one dollar and I don't remember
many complaints.  A very small increase can really add up when there are
enough people.

Is there an address (I don't I still have Byron's original e-mail any more)
for contributions?  And folks, won't these contributions be tax deductible?
If people contribute additional dollars, can you issue them a tax receipt for
the deductions?

Thanks,

Michele

Forwarded from a message sent to the CC19 committee (apologies to those who
get it twice):
>
>Just to let everyone know, the mailing deadline for the Fashion Folio has
>been extended to Oct. 31.  We should all be able to remember that date, so
>let's finish anything we have half-started.  Pass it on to anyone who might
>be interested.
>
>By coincidence, Nov. 1 is also the deadline for submissions for P.R. 3.
>
>Eileen

Well....

First of all, I'm a bit appalled, but not entirely surprised.   First of
all, Byron should be commended for stepping up to the plate and taking
responsibility, even if most of this fiasco isn't his fault.  Second, Carl
is to be commended for his willingness to shoulder the expense.

My first comment is, this needs to be addressed NOW.  It's nothing that
can't be taken care of, given that  we have until next year.  Despite our
issues with the ICG's records keeping in the past, the SLCG has always
strongly supported the ideals and the goals of the Guild.  In keeping with
that, as El Presidente, our next meeting's agenda will largely be concerned
with these financial issues and how we can be of possible help.

Admittedly, we've made some errors on our part recently, but they have been
resolved now.   In the past, we have not recommended subscribing the CQ
because of its past timeliness (ie. our money had been going down a
rathole).  Carl has proven he can get stuff out (although, for some reason,
our chapter wasn't getting them until Elaine lowered the boom  -- heh).
Personally for our part, if and when the CQ is in production again, we will
subscribe and urge our membership to do so when we start receiving them.

In regards to Elaine's comments, I have to agree that the ICG has been far
too lax in its memberships' records.  If this is a business (which it is, of
sorts, since it's a corporation), we gotta start running it like one.  When
I send out the Scarlet Letter to our membership, I check to make sure each
one is currently paid up.  On the outside, I clearly mark "Renewal Due".  I
give them one grace newsletter, and then they are dropped from the rolls.
We need to do the same with the ICG chapters immediately.  We cannot whine
and cajole any longer.  If there are no paid members, and they have not paid
by a reasonable deadline, then those records must reflect that.  That means
the efforts to keep records up to date must be re-doubled, and cannot wait
until the Annual meeting.  That leads to the situation we now have on our
hands.

In addition, while it won't take care of the whole problem, I believe the
dues for the ICG must be raised in accordance to cover its expenses, and
then some.   The SLCG ran into this same problem, when it was discovered
that membership dues were not covering the newsletter costs, which are its
primary expense.  I can't imagine that those who believe the ICG needs to
continue would object to raising dues to $3 a year or so.

For our part, we know this affects the status of the ICG Annual, and we will
cease production on it until some financial decision is made by the
governing body.

What it comes down to is that we must first raise funds somehow to take care
of current expenses.  Then, those who really care must emphasize that the CQ
is back on track.  Membership must increase and be in good standing.
Finally, the ICG must get records properly in order and drop chapters that
have been given a reasonable amount of time to get monies in.  In this way,
the Guild will be able to get a handle on future expenses.
Promotion of the Guild in cost free publications wouldn't hurt, either.
When was the last time there were any ICG flyers put out at conventions?

Bruce (and Nora)
SLCG/SLUTS

Being in debt for a while does not have to be a club-killer. It's not like we
have a weekly payroll to meet. Lots of corporations operate in the red for
years. We'll come up with something to pay back the Mami's.

Even if ICG can't afford to do much for a while, the corporation should
continue to exist to maintain our hard-won nonprofit status.

The next question: What should we do for an alternative funding source?  Dues
are not going to be enough to provide a margin of safety, even when they
start coming in again. Perhaps an annual auction at Costume Con (or another,
sooner event) of items donated by the chapters?

Meanwhile, I like Carl and Elaine's idea of electronic distribution for the
remaining committed issue of CQ. You can e-mail an attached file or post the
file to the ICG web site and not even have to pay for mailing a disk.  I can
read many file types. Adobe Acrobat .pdf would be good (if you have the
creating software) since it is very compact and allows for magazine-style
layouts with pictures. The reader is freeware.

Randall
SWCG

I've also caught a couple of these shows.  The one on Alfred
Hitchcock's use of costume was absolutely fascinating.

BTW, did you notice that one of the people interviewed on the
show about costume preservation was CGW's own Darla Kruger?

Byron


>>> fevver@... 10/05/00 08:09AM >>>
Hi!
  While channel surfing with my Saturday morning cup of
coffee, I've caught an interesting show the last two
weekends on AMC (American Movie Classics) at 10 am
CST.  The show has the ungainly title of Hollywood
Fashion MAchine, but is a a pretty interesting
documentary series on Hollywood costuming. Last week
was about costume preservation and restoration (I
found it a fascinating topic), and the week before was
on famous designer/ actress pairings.
   don't know how many episodes there are in the
series, but I'm hoping there are more.  --Heather

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ICG-D-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Hi!
  While channel surfing with my Saturday morning cup of
coffee, I've caught an interesting show the last two
weekends on AMC (American Movie Classics) at 10 am
CST.  The show has the ungainly title of Hollywood
Fashion MAchine, but is a a pretty interesting
documentary series on Hollywood costuming. Last week
was about costume preservation and restoration (I
found it a fascinating topic), and the week before was
on famous designer/ actress pairings.
   don't know how many episodes there are in the
series, but I'm hoping there are more.  --Heather

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

I AGREE!!!!!

You are not to blame in any respect.  Once the issues started going out to
catch up the held monies should have been forwarded.

I for one, do not want to see the corp. disbanded.  I haven't been in it that
long, and we at least are recruiting new paid members.  And I have learned so
much and made so many contacts, I don't want to give it up!

My two cents!

Michele Jaye Solomon

Hi Folks,

Just a reminded Costume Con 19's original future fashion folio deadline has
passed.  As always, there are many procrastinators. There is now getting to
be another tradition almost as famous as the designs procrastinators - the
deadline extension!

Sooooo  I'm here to anounce that the deadline has been extneded and to nag
and plead for designs.  Support Costume Con's yearly folio whether you can
make the trip to Canada or not this year.

The new deadline is Haloween.  (October 31th) However, there is a new
mailing address.  They go directly to the judges.  Mail your creativing to
Cat Devereaux, 6128 Cahuenga Blvd, #102, North Hollywood, CA  91606.  (And
if you're almost done after that, e-mail me for the extract judging date.)

Sharpen your pencils, get your markers out and have some fun.  The
extension gives you THREE WEEKENDS.  (I won't quote creations stories and
the number of days that took, but don't you have a few hours somewhere in
there to create some cool designs.

Besides the fun and thrill of getting your designs printed in the fashion
folio, there is a chance that your design could win one of 3 cash prizes.
-- Design a new space suit.
-- Design an outfit based on a piece of jewelry.
-- Design an outfit for a non-humanoid.  (I'll even widen the category to
non-human.)

There are two web sites to check for information.  See the master site for
entry details:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2602.  However, as long as  you put
your name and the design name somewhere on each piece of paper and send a
black and white copy, you're covered.  We'll pict the stores... or open a
new one for you.

For absolutely up to date info on the cutoff deadline... which will be later
than the 31st, check out www.AlleyCatScratch.com and keep checking back
there.  The site is being updated every couple of days.

Beggingly,

-Cat-
(Note: this is a new e-mail address for me)

P.S. there are also the folio figures out on the web so you can't even claim
that you can't find your figure bodies to use as outlines.  And as always,
you do not have to be a member of Costume Con to enter... but you would have
a lot of fun up there!

Needless to say, I AM ANGRY!  First, this is NOT a situation you created, it
is one you inherited.  You have tried your damndest to fix the problem, but
the membership has not been very helpful.  We have a self-defeating
situation here:  the Quarterly got behind; the membership withheld funds
until it got back on track; it is UP-TO-DATE, but there are no funds to pay
for it.

After the first 2 issues went out, there should have been an inflow of
"held" funds.  There wasn't.  We even have the next issue almost ready to
get printed!

According to you, the Greater Bay chapter is no longer a part of the ICG,
nor is Australia, since they have NO PAID MEMBERS.  However, we still have
lots of Quarterlies to send them from last year.  And I'll bet they are
still listed as active chapters.

We do not intend, despite all of this, to renege on our promise to get the
Quarterly out!  However, I believe that Carl intends to go with the plan he
suggested about 3 years ago, and send each chapter a CD of the issue, to be
printed and distributed at their own expense.  The costs will decrease
immensly, but NO CDs WILL GO TO CHAPTERS WITHOUT PAID ICG MEMBERS.  For us,
this has become a matter of pride.

By the way, we have had almost no response to the missing-in-action list, so
those people will not be sent any more issues.  Instead, we will, once there
is money, send those returned issues to the chapters to distribute.  I have
seen many of those "missing" people at cons, and I won't stand for any
complaints from any of them about missed issues.

I'll stop here before I begin cursing.

Elaine


>From: "Byron Connell" <bconnell@...>
>Reply-To: ICG-D@egroups.com
>To: <ICG-BOD@egroups.com>, <ICG-D@egroups.com>
>Subject: [ICG-D] ICG President's Message for October 2000
>Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 14:06:13 -0400
>
>International Costumers' Guild
>
>President's Message
>
>October 3, 2000
>
>Hello, everyone -
>
>Effective immediately, I have suspended publication of The
>Costumer's Quarterly, until further notice.
>
>I have taken this step on an emergency basis, because the ICG
>does not have the funds to continue the Quarterly's publication.
>We have printed and mailed Volume 13, issues 1 and 2, the first
>two issues for 2000.  We also have printed the special 1999 issue.
>To make up for four individual issues, it is about 100 pages.  It is
>ready now to be mailed.
>
>However, we cannot pay the cost of printing that issue, nor of
>mailing it to subscribers and chapters.  To meet demand, we
>reprinted extra copies of the first 2000 issue; that cost $127.25.
>The cost of printing the 1999 special issue is $2,946.67.  Carl
>Mami, the Quarterly's editor, has paid the printer with his personal
>credit card, so that sum is a debt of the Corporation to him.  The
>cost to mail the issue is $500.  Those expenses add up to
>$3,573.92.
>
>However, there is only about $1,200 in the ICG treasury (including
>$200 in Quarterly advertising revenue), leaving us short
>$2,373.92, even if we use every penny on hand.
>
>The bottom line is, we're broke!  We need to raise $2,500 in
>revenue immediately.  To publish the remaining two Quarterly
>issues for 2000, we need to raise a further $3,000.  At this point, it
>appears that it would be cheaper for us to make pro rata refunds
>to subscribers than to print those issues.
>
>In the U.S., contributions to the ICG are deductible from income
>for federal and state income tax purposes.  I intend to make a
>contribution; I hope other members will, too.
>
>What happened?  To begin, the ICG has been subsidizing the
>Quarterly's publication.  The subscription price for ICG members,
>$8.00 per year, does not cover the per-copy cost to print and mail
>four issues, which currently is $13.00.  We needed, but did not
>request, a $1.00 per year increase in the subscription rate for ICG
>members.  I judged that the members would not stand for it, given
>our poor record of publication.  However, for 1998, the ICG
>generated $2,227.89 more in revenue that we spent.  For 1999, at
>my recommendation, the Board of Directors adopted a budget that
>projected $265.00 more in revenue that expenditures.  Had
>revenues from ICG dues come in at the projected level and
>subscriptions continued, the Guild could have continued to
>subsidize the Quarterly's publication.
>
>As you know, however, that was not the case.  Some chapters
>decided to withhold subscriptions en masse.  In addition, ICG
>membership plummeted by over 50 percent between February
>1999 and May 2000.  That resulted in $583 less in revenue from
>dues than we had budgeted.  I understand that the last four
>months have seen no change in membership.
>
>I did not know about this shortfall until early this May.  I had failed
>to inquire either about memberships or about revenues before
>Sharon Trembley brought the problem to my attention then. I
>assumed revenues were about on target, and authorized
>expenditures at budgeted levels, rather than requiring cutbacks.
>
>As a result, at this year's Annual Meeting the Board adopted
>austere budgets for 2000 and 2001, but ones that continued to
>project annual operating deficits.  We believed that the treasury
>balance of more than $3,000 could support three years of deficits.
>We were wrong.  The money's gone already.
>
>It was not my intention to run the ICG into the ground, but
>apparently I have done so.
>
>For me, the most perplexing question is why so many costumers
>have decided to terminate their ICG memberships.  As you know,
>Costumer's Guild West, formerly our largest chapter, had only eight
>ICG members in good standing in May.  The Australian Costumers'
>Guild had no ICG members, nor did South Bay.
>
>I doubt that these chapters have so few members; these
>costumers must have decided to be local members only, rather
>than members of the International Costumers' Guild.  I am acutely
>aware that this took place during my presidency and, frankly, I
>wonder whether there is something I did to offend so many
>costumers.  On the other hand, I know of no member who
>opposed my re-election in 1999 and 2000, let alone who asked for
>my resignation.  Have I simply scared everyone away?  If I have, I
>apologize, even though I have no idea what I may have done.
>
>At this point, however, in my judgment the International Costumers'
>Guild as it now stands is no longer a viable organization.  Do
>costumers still want it or has it outlived its purpose?  If the
>Corporation is to survive, we need a radical reorganization
>strategy. Frankly, I'm fresh out of ideas.  Do any of you have any?
>All suggestions will be cheerfully accepted.
>
>If we don't come up with something, at the next Annual Meeting I
>will introduce a motion directing the Board of Directors to take all
>necessary steps to dissolve the Corporation.
>
>Members may contact me by e-mail at bconnell@...
>(work) or BP.Connell@... (home), or by post at 50
>Dove Street, Albany, NY  12210-1811 USA.
>
>Yours,
>
>Byron P. Connell, President
>International Costumers Guild, Inc.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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International Costumers' Guild

President's Message

October 3, 2000

Hello, everyone -

Effective immediately, I have suspended publication of The
Costumer's Quarterly, until further notice.

I have taken this step on an emergency basis, because the ICG
does not have the funds to continue the Quarterly's publication.
We have printed and mailed Volume 13, issues 1 and 2, the first
two issues for 2000.  We also have printed the special 1999 issue.
To make up for four individual issues, it is about 100 pages.  It is
ready now to be mailed.

However, we cannot pay the cost of printing that issue, nor of
mailing it to subscribers and chapters.  To meet demand, we
reprinted extra copies of the first 2000 issue; that cost $127.25.
The cost of printing the 1999 special issue is $2,946.67.  Carl
Mami, the Quarterly's editor, has paid the printer with his personal
credit card, so that sum is a debt of the Corporation to him.  The
cost to mail the issue is $500.  Those expenses add up to
$3,573.92.

However, there is only about $1,200 in the ICG treasury (including
$200 in Quarterly advertising revenue), leaving us short
$2,373.92, even if we use every penny on hand.

The bottom line is, we're broke!  We need to raise $2,500 in
revenue immediately.  To publish the remaining two Quarterly
issues for 2000, we need to raise a further $3,000.  At this point, it
appears that it would be cheaper for us to make pro rata refunds
to subscribers than to print those issues.

In the U.S., contributions to the ICG are deductible from income
for federal and state income tax purposes.  I intend to make a
contribution; I hope other members will, too.

What happened?  To begin, the ICG has been subsidizing the
Quarterly's publication.  The subscription price for ICG members,
$8.00 per year, does not cover the per-copy cost to print and mail
four issues, which currently is $13.00.  We needed, but did not
request, a $1.00 per year increase in the subscription rate for ICG
members.  I judged that the members would not stand for it, given
our poor record of publication.  However, for 1998, the ICG
generated $2,227.89 more in revenue that we spent.  For 1999, at
my recommendation, the Board of Directors adopted a budget that
projected $265.00 more in revenue that expenditures.  Had
revenues from ICG dues come in at the projected level and
subscriptions continued, the Guild could have continued to
subsidize the Quarterly's publication.

As you know, however, that was not the case.  Some chapters
decided to withhold subscriptions en masse.  In addition, ICG
membership plummeted by over 50 percent between February
1999 and May 2000.  That resulted in $583 less in revenue from
dues than we had budgeted.  I understand that the last four
months have seen no change in membership.

I did not know about this shortfall until early this May.  I had failed
to inquire either about memberships or about revenues before
Sharon Trembley brought the problem to my attention then. I
assumed revenues were about on target, and authorized
expenditures at budgeted levels, rather than requiring cutbacks.

As a result, at this year's Annual Meeting the Board adopted
austere budgets for 2000 and 2001, but ones that continued to
project annual operating deficits.  We believed that the treasury
balance of more than $3,000 could support three years of deficits.
We were wrong.  The money's gone already.

It was not my intention to run the ICG into the ground, but
apparently I have done so.

For me, the most perplexing question is why so many costumers
have decided to terminate their ICG memberships.  As you know,
Costumer's Guild West, formerly our largest chapter, had only eight
ICG members in good standing in May.  The Australian Costumers'
Guild had no ICG members, nor did South Bay.

I doubt that these chapters have so few members; these
costumers must have decided to be local members only, rather
than members of the International Costumers' Guild.  I am acutely
aware that this took place during my presidency and, frankly, I
wonder whether there is something I did to offend so many
costumers.  On the other hand, I know of no member who
opposed my re-election in 1999 and 2000, let alone who asked for
my resignation.  Have I simply scared everyone away?  If I have, I
apologize, even though I have no idea what I may have done.

At this point, however, in my judgment the International Costumers'
Guild as it now stands is no longer a viable organization.  Do
costumers still want it or has it outlived its purpose?  If the
Corporation is to survive, we need a radical reorganization
strategy. Frankly, I'm fresh out of ideas.  Do any of you have any?
All suggestions will be cheerfully accepted.

If we don't come up with something, at the next Annual Meeting I
will introduce a motion directing the Board of Directors to take all
necessary steps to dissolve the Corporation.

Members may contact me by e-mail at bconnell@...
(work) or BP.Connell@... (home), or by post at 50
Dove Street, Albany, NY  12210-1811 USA.

Yours,

Byron P. Connell, President
International Costumers Guild, Inc.

Well, that explains a lot...

This may also be way too late, but here goes nothing...

Cheers,

Betsy


Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Feedback from Costume-ConNections]]
    Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 19:48:18 -0400
    From: Betsy Delaney <betsy@...>
      To: ICG List <icg-l@...>

Hi, folks!

I know there's someone out there who might be interested in this message
- please respond to atwillyoung@...!

Thanks,

Betsy

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Feedback from Costume-ConNections
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:36:13 -0500
From: atwillyoung@... (Andrew T. Willyoung)
To: Costume-Con@...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Costumers and costume people:
Hello, my name is Andrew T. Willyoung and I am the
producer and host of a National award winning cable
access tv show called "What's Up Wit' That".  I am
e-mailing you because I am looking for some guests to
appear on an episode of my show on "Costumers and
Costumes" to play as our Halloween special.  We are a
very progressive and informative tv show that centers
on cultures and subcultures, and interseting topics
that the mainstream tv doesn't give justice to.  We
plan to tape the show on Wed., Oct 4, at the TCI/ATT
studios in San Jose, at 8:00 p.m.  What I need, and
DESPERATELY, is some guests.  Can you please contact
me a.s.ap. if you can appear on the show or if you
know someone who might be interested.  I knnow this is
short notice but I really want to do this show because
it will be fun for the viewers to see this cool stuff.
  Please contact me at my e-mail address as listed:
atwillyoung@...  or call me at (408) 244-1789
(wk), or at home at (408) 446-5203.  E-mail me first
because this is the best way to contact me.  Thank you
so much, and hopefully you can help me out and make
this a great Halloween tv special.
Thanks for your help
Best Wishes anbd Regards
Andrew T. Willyoung

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

To earn some extra pocket money, I have recently been working on The
Blonde, a mini series on the life of Marilyn Monroe shot here in Melbourne.

There was fun on set as scenes in old Hollywood were being done,
particularly in recreating the making of The Asphalt Jungle, with the actor
playing the director calling, "...rolling-speed-mark it-action!" instantly
after the real assistant director has called, "...rolling-speed-mark
it-action!" often after an actor has called that to cue the actors playing
actors and
directors before the real director calls - - - well, you get the picture.

It is being made for US television and the recreations of 1940s LA in
Williamstown, a seaside suburb of Melbourne, and New York and London in
central Melbourne are very good - amazing what you can do with some old
caddies and fake fire hydrants! The studio stuff is very good as well with
excellent settings, both original and recreations of known backgrounds and
stunning fakes of old Hollywood backlots.

The thing stars Poppy Montgomery as Marilyn/Norma Jean and a mixed
Australian-US cast of faces you may recognise such as Kirsty Alley as one
of Norma Jean's foster parents.

Costume designer is Albie Farraway, also known for designs on Ocean Girl,
Thunderstone, and others.

No idea when it will be screened.

-C.

With the list problems this may be too late, but I'm resending anyways.
---------
Got this off the h-costume list.  Margo is a major contributor to it.
Don't know if she's an ICG member.

> -Poster: Margo Anderson <margo@...>
>
> Hello, I'm asking an enormous favor from someone in the San Jose area.  I'm
> going to be appearing on  "What's Up Wit' That"., a cable access TV show,
> for their Halloween program about costumers.  The show will  tape on Wed.,
> Oct 4, at the TCI/ATT studios in San Jose, at 8:00 p.m.
>
> What I'm looking for is someone who can come to the studio (or be picked up
> by me) at   about 6:30 and help me get dressed, as I cannot get into
> Elizabethan court costume by myself, especially with my strained shoulder.
> I'd be delighted to buy dinner in return.
>
> I'd also love to find a place to spend the night, rather than driving back
> to my friend's house in Hayward, but that's not as pressing a need.
>
> If anyone can help, please email me at margo@...
>
> thanks,
>
> Margo Anderson

--
Janice Dallas
Boston,MA area, USA
JaniceDals@...
"Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..."

Just a test.  Maybe I can actually post to the list now.  Haven't in a couple of
months.

Bruno
Millennium CG

This one, too.

Byron


>>> eoin@... 10/03/00 04:28AM >>>

Should have been done before subscribing folks.

    JohnO

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ICG-D-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Should have been done before subscribing folks.

    JohnO