• The heading, 'Ephraim,' is on page 666 of the LDS Bible Dictionary.  See write-up "How I Ended up with the Address 666 South 60 East, Ephraim, Utah."
• The telephone prefix for Ephraim Utah is 283.  There are 283 days (9 months) of gestation.  See word study: 283 Days of Gestation and Birthing of the Man Child - metaphorical representations of the coming kingdom of God contained in the number 283.
• On page 283 of Zodhiates' New Testament lexicon is word 801, which number is the telephone area code for the Wasatch Front region of Utah, including the capital, Salt Lake City.  See write-up "801 and Salt that has lost its Savor."
• 435 is the telephone area code for Ephraim, Utah.  See write-up: "435 Area Code and the Mormon Remnant Outcasts."
• On the mountain just West of the city is a natural clearing of trees a mile and half wide that forms the shape of an eagle hovering over the Sanpete valley.  See write-up: "Sanpete Valley - place of interim gathering of Eagles."

• Ephraim, elder son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt, was given the birthright of the tribes of Israel, and has the responsibility for the gathering of the Lord's people in the latter days.  
  • See Encyclopedia of Mormonism listing for "Ephraim."
  • See EPHRAIM: The Location of Lost Israelite Tribes In The West According To The Bible, Jewish And Non-Jewish Tradition, And General Fact
  • See Ephraim: The House of Joseph / The House of Israel by Hebraic Heritage Ministries
  • See Ephraim and Manasseh and prophecy by Cutting Edge Ministry 
• Isaiah 28 is addressed to the "drunkards of Ephraim" providing a powerful parody on the blindness of the mainstream body of those who are called to be the people of God both anciently and in our day.
  • See Isaiah 28 = Isaiah 29 Parallel.
  • See Isaiah 28 = II Nephi 28 Parallel, with commentary.

With all the local talent here in this valley (sure to be true
elsewhere as well) in the areas of alternative health and education, it
dawned on me this morning that we ought to be forming alliances to
facilitate like-minded patriot-saint-like people being able to network more
easily in these important areas.

Though I am certain that there is a lot of talent along these lines in this
valley, frankly, I wouldn't know exactly who or where to turn for specific
needs.  If we knew where to find each other, and what areas of expertise
various people possess, then it would be easier for us to benefit from one
another's talents.

If my child has an ailment, I would much rather patronize someone of like
mind who might have a natural remedy or even a gift for healing, than take
my child to a hospital.  Likewise, I plan on home schooling my children, but
I would like to know what my options are so far as some coop teaching.

To facilitate this creating of a directory of alternative services, I have
created two web pages:

http://www.patriotsaints.com/HealthAlliance/
and
http://www.patriotsaints.com/EducationAlliance/

If any of you know of something that already exists along these lines,
please let me know.

I've compiled a beginning listing for both alternative health and education
in Central Utah.

http://www.patriotsaints.com/HealthAlliance/USA/Utah/Central/
and
http://www.patriotsaints.com/EducationAlliance/USA/Utah/Central/

If others of you from other geographical regions would like to compile a
similar directory for patriot saints in your area, let me know so we can
link to it from our main directory.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
www.patriotsaints.com

http://www.greaterthings.com/Davidic_Servant/gentle_God_peers.htm


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@...>
To: <davids_outcasts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [888] Why some of you are losers; and I'm not


Hi Jordan,

I've had nearly these identical emotions of which you speak -- several times
over the years.

What I find now, though, thanks in large part to discussions here on this
list, especially due to the input of Randall, Kieth, Susan, and many others
including yourself, is that my view of the 'kick-ass' God of the scriptures
has changed quite dramatically.  Indeed, I can't help but think that the
'kick-ass' God described is not a function of God, but of the writers of
scripture, whose filters have been taught all these thousands of years that
God is going to kick some butt when he gets home.

That was the God of the O.T. (or at least that is how he was perceived at
the time) because the people of the O.T. didn't understand any other
language than that.  They were children in their progression, and they
needed the punitive hand of a loving but stern God to keep them in line.

In these last days, the people of God are no longer children but adults in
Christ -- peers, colleagues.  One does not kick a peer's butt.

Yes, there are still people on the planet who are not as mature spiritually,
who have some awful consequences coming their way if they do not mend their
ways.  This is described in the scriptures as the fury of the Lord, but it
is nothing more than them getting what they have coming because they did
not reach out for the grace clause presented to them.

Some day in the eternities, they will 'get it.'

I don't feel the same way about the scriptures in Revelation about the mark
of the beast that I used to.

It used to be that when I would read these, I would think, "Wow, burning in
hell is some awful consequence for taking this beast; why aren't we talking
about this in the LDS culture?"

Well, I still believe there is a "beast" element, and that there are awful
natural consequences for partaking in a scheme based on coersion rather than
freedom, and that our society is headed down a path of facing such
consequences painfully.  However, the verbiage just does not do the same
thing for me (instill an element of fear) that it used to because of my
confidence in a loving God and of the beuty of the human experience(s) that
allows each to learn in their lifetime(s) what it is they most need to
learn.  Yes, we are in for a big collective lesson.  Great.  Great if we can
avert it.  Either way, agency is supreme.  Either way we learn a great deal
and when we're done we say, "Whew, I'm glad that's over, but I'm sure glad
we were able to experience that."

Likewise, my feelings have changed regarding the scripture in 3 Nephi (and
other variations through the scriptures) that talks about people needing to
hearken to the voice of the Lord that he imparts through his servant, or
they will be cut off from among the people.  We here on this list realize
that this is one of the hallmark "Davidic Servant" prophecies.  Many of us
here on this list have thought (or continue to think) that this role is ours
alone.  I used to think that.  For several years I thought that this
prophecy was talking about me.  And several on this list have carried that
same burden, and what a burden it is.  Back-breaking it is.  On the one
hand, while in this mindset, we realize our inadequacy, but on the other
hand we think that God can do whatever he wants; and if he has chosen us,
well, that is his business, and somehow he will make us equal to the task.
Meanwhile, we turn a lot of people off, scare a lot of people away, do crazy
things thinking they are part of our obedience test.

All the while, it turns out that when all is said and done there will be (in
my best estimate opinion) 144,000 Davidic Servants, who, by definition of
being part of the 144,000 are of the order of "davidic servant" or after the
calling of "Christ," overcoming and inheriting as Jesus did, becoming joint
heirs, members of the church of the firstborn.

And what is it that these Davidic Servant's have to say that is so
earthshaking so that those who hearken are numbered among God's people,
while those who do not hearken are 'cut off'?  Basically, the message, in my
best estimation (based on study, revelation, mistakes, learning, etc) is
that the message is that each person is a child of God and entitled to be
personally responsible to God -- a joint heir -- not subservient to some
other person [including the 'davidic servant(s)']in order to learn God's
will for them.  Of course, part of that message that God will impart to
those who listen (whether directly or through the instrumentality of others)
is things like "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  And what
does that mean?  Well, basically it is about aligning one's life with God
and his kingdom, which is going to be established on this earth, even as it
is in heaven.

That's my take anyway.

Your fellow Davidic Servant,

Sterling D. Allan




----- Original Message -----
From: <twelvestorm1@...>
To: <davids_outcasts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:45 PM
Subject: [888] Why some of you are losers; and I'm not





what makes me so special?  I'm not better, or smarter, or more
righteous than any of you (subscribers to Davids Outcasts)  So am I
more "special" than any of you, in any way?

Yep.  The same way a mechanic is "special" to you when you go to have
your car fixed.

Just what has been going on, since I joined Davids Outcasts on May 20
of this year, and several times pulled out, only to re-join?

There is a process, anciently prophesied, being emplaced in these
latter days, as we approach the Second Coming of Christ, in the
clouds, in glory, as when he visited the Nephites (we believers in
the Book of Mormon are especially qualified to avoid other alleged
Second Comings).

This process is mentioned for example, in the Book of Ezekiel, when
the Lord says he will gather his people in the latter days with a
stretched out arm, with great fury and zeal.  The book of Isaiah,
especially Chapter 11, says it will be quite analogous to the
departure from Egypt.

In Ezekiel, the parable of a "rod" is used.  Ancient shepherds used
to lay a rod parallel with the ground, and then whistle for the sheep.

Those sheep that refused to BOW DOWN to come under the rod, were
then marked and sent to the slaughter.  Their disobedience cost them
their lives on earth.

Same with wannabe "Christians" "Jews" and "Latter-Day Saints."

Jesus says clearly in Third Nephi that "the time is not yet, but
soon, when whosoever will not hearken to the Only Begotten...will be
cut off from among the people."

In those same verses, Jesus applies those verses from Deuteronomy 18
to himself, and the choice seer.  Further, in D&C 101, he implies to
Joseph Smith, Jr. that such is a role of any "man like unto Moses."
John the Baptist is another example of that.  If you don't give a
damn about John the Baptist today, then you are a liar and a thief in
the work to establish the government of Jesus Christ on earth.  Same
with the Choice Seer.  Notice that Third Nephi does NOT say that you
have to hearken to the Choice Seer, or even his words.  But you DO
have to hearken to the words he brings forth from Jesus Christ, or
you are cut off from among the people.

As Sterling Allan explains eloquently and convincingly, this process
applies to more than one serious servant of God besides Jesus Christ,
Moses, John the Baptist, the Choice Seer, or the "One Mighty and
Strong."

It is an office, a role, fulfilled by way more than one person.

Now, I'm here in the New Jerusalem, Independence, Missouri, Jackson
County Missouri, and have lived and worked and studied here for 26
years this month, with relatively brief stints in Utah and Israel.

Are my observations relevant to anyone and everyone who claims to be
interested in Zion, as described in the BofM, D&C, and Bible?

Of course. You're deceived by the Evil One, if you think not.

It is Satan who whispers in the ears of all who will hearken to him,
that not only is Jesus Christ not Lord of Joseph Smith, who
faithfully dedicated this place pointed out by the "voice and finger
of the Lord" in August 1831, but that same Satan also whispers to all
who will listen that Jordan Smith is also not a servant of that Jesus
Christ.  And he also whispers in the ears of many that my Lord Jesus
Christ is not Lord.

So, who hearkens to what?

The Book of Mormon says that whosoever will not hearken to those that
the Lord sends, his servants and his prophets, which include the
likes of me, Jesus E. Moses, Sterling Allan, Randall and Laura
Shortridge, and even, yes, Blayne "Hawkiye" Sukut....

will not be accepted "at the last day."

In the New Testament, Jesus several times explains that those who
claim to Love Him but who prove by their actions on earth that they
don't, will "go into outer darkness, where there is weeping and
wailing and gnashing of teeth."

I care. That sucks, to see someone in that "left out" state.  We sons
and daughters of God are pained, and wish to do WHATEVER we can to
forestall, prevent, and rescue our fellow creations from such a
state, however temporary or eternal it may be.

And so I go forth, speaking, writing, and acting out the word of God
in the eyes of all the people.

For one thing, I'm giving each of you who so much as hear my name, to
share my reward from the Most High.  And what I wrote on October 14,
1989 is still true today:

"if you ignore, or deny, or mock me, you sell me your birthright for
a bowl of carnal judgement, and I will never give it back."

Actually, that part about "never giving it back" seems kinda harsh to
me now, but I have noticed that the God of Israel is pretty stern,
pretty cut-and-dried about some things:  He's not Soft On Crime,
ultimately.

I have watched, year after year after year, as supposed Christians
and Restorationists and latter-day-Saints have "burned" "church"
after "church" after "church" of God. Veritable Abortion doctors,
flaming and hating and mocking and dismissing and ignoring
manifestation after manifestation of the living God's words and works.

See how some subscribers do not respond (or read) anything I write on
David's Outcasts? Such I encountered long before January 1, 1990.
Such is only typical of the response which I have gotten from the
beginning, and the reason God told my ancestor Ezekiel:  "Set your
forehead as a flint against this people, thine own relatives, for
they are a stiffnecked and hardhearted bunch of rebels."


Okay.


But Ezekiel cared, and I care, and our God of Israel cares.  He has
and will give you every opportunity, which you could possibly think
possible, so, that as a modern angelic revelation says:

"that they may be without excuse at the last day."

Folks, I'm sorry, but you are all going to get from my God what
you're giving to me now. Just like I'm getting from some of you now
(nothing) that which I have in the past sought to give your idols
(nothing).

I just saw today in Isaiah Chapter 3 a chilling reference to KARMA:

10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy
the fruit of their deeds.

11 Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back
for what their hands have done.

and further:

12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your
guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path.
13 The LORD takes his place in court; he rises to judge the people.


Oh no...God "judges!" --cry the heathen!

Oh good...God "judges!" --cry we poor, and needy,
and oppressed, and robbed.




                                  ---Jordan B. Smith

                     real live Priest in the Temple of the Most High


                                     Independence, Missouri



"Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets"

www.greaterthings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts/

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Dear subscribers to Greater Things newsletter,

As I embark on this project of publishing a monthly magazine (in
print) by the name Greater Things, I am hoping that many of you will
be willing to assist in this project.

Already, I have had a dozen or so agree to head up various aspects of
the magazine.  I appreciate that.

What I am still feeling is lacking is a sense of shared enthusiasm
and ownership of the project.  Though I am willing to do my part in
helping to pull this off, I would much prefer that there were a few
others who were with me in feeling a sense of mission/destiny in
helping to see this project be a success.

There is an aspect of proactive behavior (taking initiative to get
things done, not waiting for orders or direction from others) that
comes when a person shares a sense of ownership in a project.  So far
I feel like I'm the only one proactively pushing to make things
happen.

I want to see this magazine live up to its name, and the only way
that is going to happen is if it is a team effort -- not just of the
number of people involved in various aspects, but in the number of
people who share a proactive sense of ownership in the project.

If the magazine lived up to its name, there would be at least 144,000
subscribers.  If the magazine lived up to its name, each of those
144,000 would have at one point or another contributed a story or
would have been mentioned in some feature article.

I happen to think that most of you who subscribe to this newsletter,
if not all, will be numbered among the prophesied 144,000.  I also
happen to think that among you are those who are ideally suited to
help in a ownership level on this particular project.

I certainly don't think that this is the end-all, be-all project of
the great and marvelous work.  But I do envision it to be a source of
nourishment for those involved in that work, and a facilitator of
that work -- a sort of fan to fuel the fire.

So could I ask of you to look inside your heart, take this in a
spirit of prayer, and see if maybe you aren't foreordained to help
make this project be a success.

Then, if you do feel so inclined, or if you have ideas that come to
you as you ponder this question, I would love to hear about it.

To give you an idea of the scope I envision for this project, here
are some of the things I envision.

(1) A continual billboard along the I-15 corridor in Utah's Wasatch
Front depicting the two-thirds of the BofM gold plates that are
sealed, with the words next to it:  "Greater Things Magazine"

(2) Advertisement for the magazine in compatible magazines such as
the New American and perhaps even Guidepost or even Reader's Digest.

(3) Feature articles each month about various people on "the path"
and the things they have overcome and experienced along the way.

(4) For a list of other monthly features such as dreams and visions,
scripture studies, health tips, science trends, news commentary, Zion
community attempt reports, etc..., see
http://www.greaterthings.com/Magazine/

(5) A website specifically designed to supplement the magazine.

(6) An ecumenical draw in both subscription base and contributing
writers to the magazine.

(7) Advertising in the magazine that is consistent with the intent of
the magazine, such as home school supplies, herbal remedies, free
energy machines, high-efficiency vehicles, etc.

(8) A subscription rate that is low enough to be affordable by
anyone, but high enough to produce a sense of value, such as in the
range of 10-30 dollars a year.  Because the actual cost of production
will be more than that, such a low price would require subsidization
from philanthropists, advertising, and small donations.

Again, I hope that there will be some among you who feel a tug in
your spirit that this is a project with which you are destined to be
a major part.  May we together with the grace of God help produce a
Greater Things Magazine that lives up to its name.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
www.greaterthings.com

[For those who might not necessarily care about the private developments in my
life (that's fine), in the spirit of 'greater things,' chalk this up as an
endorsement for taking responsbility for the birth process -- a vote for home
birth and husband-assisted childbirth (e.g. Bradley method).]

On August 16, 2001 at 1:50 AM a baby girl weighing 6 lbs. and measuring 20
inches was born to Sterling and Cheri Allan.  She arrived in our home here in
Ephraim, Utah under the able hands of three midwife attendants headed by
Cassandra Westra.

Baby and mother are doing fine.

We have chosen the name Emilee Alyssa.  It took us a couple of days to settle on
that name as we considered also the names Christine, Nicole, and Melissa
Michelle.  Emilee in Latin means 'flatterer,' and in German means 'industrious.'
It is also a contraction of Emma and Lee.  Alyssa is a form of Alice, which
means 'truthful' in Greek and 'noble' in German.  It is also a contraction of
Elizabeth, a Hebrew name meaning 'consecrated to God.'

The highlight of the birth for me was that our 20-month old firstborn son,
Christian Mechaiel, was able to watch his sister be born and then immediately
bond with her after she was dried off and placed in her grandmother Susan
Carter's arms.  I had Susan go and get Christian from his crib when the baby was
crowning.  Despite the moaning noises his mother was making, he was not
distraught in the slightest, but was curious as could be to see what was
happening.  Then, as Susan held the newborn along with Christian, while the
midwives attended to Cheri's bleeding, Christian was patting his sister, rubbing
her soft skin, poking her gently (sort of), and placing his check on hers.

Cheri was a trooper in handling the contractions as they grew progressively more
intense over the course of two days, beginning early in the morning on Tuesday
August 14.  In our last birth with Christian, I was able to help ease the pain
of the contractions by pressing on the lower portion of her back.  But in this
labor, besides massaging her, about the only thing I did to help was be there
for her to lean on as the contractions came and went.  The midwives were not the
least bit sympathetic to the scratches I had on my arms that were quite red and
puffy in one place.

Cheri spent the last three or so hours laboring in our Jacuzzi bath tub.  The
warm circulating water helped ease the intensity of the pain, though it
certainly did not take away the feeling during transition that she wasn't sure
if she could go through with it.  But, alas she did, and she did so very well.

As the baby emerged from the birth canal into the warm water of the tub, and
then into the air, the mildness of the change was not such as to give her reason
to cry; so she didn't.  We at first did not realize this and were wanting her to
give us a good holler to get her to start breathing.  But she was breathing just
fine, and didn't give us hardly so much as a whimper but was calm as could be.

The first thing I thought as I saw the head emerge was, "Hey, it looks just like
Jason" -- Christian's cousin, my brother Nathan's boy.  With her arrival, my
parents now have eighteen grand children, and Cheri's parents have three.

A comical thing happened Tuesday morning.  I'm helping our midwife and her
husband build their home; and on Tuesday morning, before knowing that Cheri was
having regular contractions, I arrived at 6:00 AM to meet with Cassandra's
husband, Chris, to get some tips from a builder on how to install the doors. 
From there, Chris left to join his family in Park City for a vacation.

Not an hour later, as I was working on some shelving, the neighbor came and
asked me where Chris was.  I said he had just left on vacation.  He replied that
Chris had better come back because his wife was in labor.  He apparently got the
details mixed up a little.  Well, Cassandra did have to take a little break from
her family's vacation, but not because she was the one having the baby.

We would like to thank all those who assisted during the labor and after the
birth.  It is nice to have family nearby.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
666 S. 60 E.
Ephraim, UT 84627
('Ephraim' is on p.666 of the LDS Bible Dictionary)

p.s. One other item of note ironic relevance to the birth is that on the same
day of the birth, an editorial I wrote regarding stem cell research was
published on page A-16 of the Salt Lake Tribune.

p.p.s. I would be sending this announcement to some of my private contacts as
well, but my hard drive crash has left me without any email addresses (haven't
been able to recover them yet).  When I get reconnected to the internet, I will
be posting this along with photos to
http://www.greaterthings.com/SterlingDAllan/Bio/Emilee/Birth.htm
(If you look too soon, there won't be anything there.  It may take a few days.)

[p.s. Due to my wife being in labor (2/3 through first stage) David's
Outcasts retreat, sheduled for Aug. 17-19 at our home, is canceled.]

I've been wanting to send the following documents out for your
consideration and feedback.  I intend to make them part of the
Greater Things Magazine, making reference (e.g. web link) to them in
each issue that goes out.  For those who do not yet know we are
starting a monthly hard-copy magazine see
http://www.greaterthings.com/Magazine/

Would you sign such a document?  Would the following documents help
allay people's concerns about subscribing to a magazine that
otherwise might seem too 'radical'?

Sterling

========================
FIRST LETTER

	 Open Letter to Religious Leaders
	 From: Greater Things Magazine
	 August 7, 2001

To the regularly ordained leadership of the mainstream body of Christ
of the various major denominations of the world,

As publishers and readers of this Greater Things magazine we would
like to inform you of our intentions in relation to the work you are
called of God to do.

We respect your responsibilities and mantles as general authorities
of the church of Christ, and we recognize your rights and abilities
to receive inspiration for the administration and guidance for your
various denominational bodies.

We also recognize that because of the size of those bodies, and of
the young and tender spiritual age of many of its members, that you
of necessity must limit the depth of your words so that they are not
too much for the least of these saints.  We realize that you may on
occasion share your deeper feelings or insights with select audiences
of smaller size or even one-on-one, but that the reason you feel free
to do so is because there will not be written transcripts of your
words made available to the main body of the church, who might
otherwise stumble because they are not sufficiently prepared for your
words.

Our audience overlaps your audience, but represents a small subset
that we like to call the "remnant" -- those who with great diligence
continually seek and obtain greater light and knowledge.  We also
draw not just from one denomination, but from many, for the closer
one gets to truth, the more denominational boundaries subside and
actually add to a richness of varied backgrounds rather than
contributing to contentions.

We do not seek to destroy or overthrow what you have, for we
recognize that you provide a valuable journey experience for a
substantial set of people.  At the same time we realize that you may
not particularly care for some of the polemic we compose in our
pursuit of the truth which includes exposing false traditions and
errors.

Our purpose is to provide a nourishing environment for those saints
who seek to heed the admonition to awake, arise, and put on strength
in the Lord in bringing about the literal kingdom of God on earth
both as it pertains to the gospel as well as the government of God.

We hope you will not feel threatened by our mission statement,
thinking us to be usurping into areas you consider to be your
prerogative.  We honor you to what extent we share this objective,
and we sympathize with your plight of being hampered in being able to
nourish your remnant saints because of your obligation to give
deference to the weak among your number.  We have no such limitation
because our entire loosely-knit assembly is centered on the concept
of seeking and obtaining greater things.  We are "loosely-knit"
because we each realize that every individual is both entitled and
obligated to have an independent relationship with God; but at the
same time we are still entitled and obligated to nourish one another,
finding a great fullness through our association with others whose
unique spiritual gifts augment our own, so that together we might
emerge as the kingdom of God on earth -- the manchild that comes
forth from the woman.  You are the mother, we are the manchild.  We
honor you and thank you for your nourishing role in bringing us to
this point.  We hope you will honor and love us as your child.  We
don't see ourselves as "better" than you; nay, we come forth FROM
you.  And thanks to you and the Father, we have thirsted after and
are obtaining greater things.

Signatures ____________

========================
SECOND LETTER

	 Open Letter to Political Leaders
	 From: Greater Things Magazine
	 August 7, 2001

To the honorable leadership of the governments of the free world,

As publishers and readers of this Greater Things magazine we would
like to inform you of our intentions in relation to the work you
perform on behalf of mankind.

We respect your responsibilities and mantles as leaders of the
governments of the free world, and we recognize your rights and
abilities to use the wisdom God gave you for the administration and
guidance of the affairs of your respective nations, states, counties,
towns, villages.

We also recognize that because of the size of your region of
responsibility, and of the tendency of some of its inhabitants to
live off of government handouts with no thought for the sweat of
others whose hard-earned resources were extracted by the force of
socialist laws, that you of necessity of staying in office under
these conditions must limit the degree to which you promote laws that
would require individual responsibility instead.  We realize that on
occasion you might speak of less government intervention in the
redistribution of wealth but that when it comes time to voting on
behalf of your constituency you must pander to their desire for
socialism or be voted out of office.

Our audience overlaps your constituency, but represents a small
subset that we like to call the "remnant" -- those who with great
diligence continually seek and obtain greater light and knowledge as
pertaining to the proper role of government in protecting freedom and
the rights of the individual, including the right to be the one who
decides to withhold or to give of one's wealth for the benefit of
others.  We also draw not just from one nation, but from many, for
the closer one gets to truth, the more national boundaries subside
and actually add to a richness of varied cultures rather than
contributing to nationalistic contentions.

We do not seek to destroy or overthrow what you have, for we
recognize that you represent the general will of the people which
should be upheld.  At the same time we realize that you may not
particularly care for some of the polemic we compose in our pursuit
of the truth which includes exposing unstable government principles
and errors.

Our purpose is to provide a nourishing environment for those citizens
earnest for freedom who seek to heed the admonition to awake, arise,
and put on strength in the Lord in bringing about the literal kingdom
of God on earth both as it pertains to the gospel as well as the
government of God.

We hope you will not feel threatened by our mission statement,
thinking us to be usurping into areas you consider to be your
prerogative.  We honor you to what extent we share this objective,
and we sympathize with your plight of being hampered in being able to
satisfy those among your constituents who are zealous for freedom
because of your obligation to give deference to the weak.  We have no
such limitation because our entire loosely-knit society is centered
in the concept of seeking and obtaining the ideal societal
structure.  We are "loosely-knit" because we each realize that every
individual is both entitled and obligated to be responsible for him
or herself; but at the same time we are still entitled and obligated
to take care of one another, finding a sense of synergized community
through our association with others whose unique skills augment our
own, so that together we might emerge as the kingdom of God on earth -
- the manchild that comes forth from the woman.  You are the
father/government who protects the mother/church, we are the
manchild.  We honor you and thank you for your protective role in
bringing us to this point.  We hope you will honor and love us as
your child.  We don't see ourselves as "better" than you; nay, we
come forth FROM you.  And thanks to you and the mother/church, we
have thirsted after and will obtain the promised kingdom of God on
earth.

Signatures ____________

http://www.greaterthings.com/Zion/Camp/Davids_Outcasts/

An update on plans, representing some changes from first the announcement in
February.

* WHEN: No longer five days but three, beginning at 4:00 PM Friday, Aug. 17,
2001, and ending some time Sunday.

* WHERE: Will take place at our home at 666 S. 60 E., Ephraim, Utah, rather
than at Temple Hill Resort.

* MEALS will be simple and mostly planned 'on the fly' with people taking
turns to cook.

* LODGING: We will try to accommodate people coming from a distance in the
homes of those who live nearby, including our home.

* WHAT: Format will mainly be round-table discussion.  Each person has
experiences and knowledge they can contribute to the discussion so that all
are edified.  Hopefully the participants will feel safe enough to share some
personal experiences from their paths in life as well.  We will also have
some R&R time to allow one-on-one mingling.

* DISCUSSION TOPICS: (1) triple-couple relationships (www.triplecouples.com)
etc. for establishing the next basic units of a covenant Zion society; and
(2) escaping Babylon.

* EXIGENCY:  Cheri is fine with having the retreat here at our home, as long
as she has full support for moving it elsewhere if she happens to go into
labor early.  Our due date is the 25.

* RSVP:  Please let us know if you plan on coming, and which days, if not
all, you will be here, and if you would like to have any special
arrangements for lodging.  You can do so either by e-mail or online at
www.greaterthings.com/Zion/Camp/Davids_Outcasts/sign_up.htm

A list of people planning on coming is found at
http://www.greaterthings.com/Zion/Camp/Davids_Outcasts/

* DIRECTIONS: Ephraim is located in central Utah on State Highway 89.  Go to
the south end of Ephraim, past Kent's market and McDonalds.  The highway
turns to the right a little and will begin picking up speed there, but you
will want to keep your speed down because you need to turn just past the new
movie theatre on your left.  It is a dirt access that the city hasn't yet
improved, followed by a paved street.  60 E. is the third street on your
left.  If you go one street to far, you will come to a "T" intersection,
which is 100 E.  We are the only house on the west side of 60 E.  It is a
two-story gray stucco home with the address 666 on the front.

There's a map of Central Utah on the web page.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan

Here's a feedback comment from David Skousen.  Very powerful.  I've added it
to
http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/Places/666_South/

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Skousen" <davids@...>
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: How I Ended Up With the Address 666 South


    Sterling, you make mirth with us! How intoxicating to think that 666 is a
positive number. But I also believe there is much more to the story of 666
than all conjecture heretofore (at least that I have seen).
    Before the day of rest is the day of purification from sin. In 6 days the
Lord created the world. To create is to change forms, elements, systems, and
to proceed according to a master plan. As the days progress, things get
better! On day 6, we are ready for day 7 and the (re-)creation of man.
    As I understand it now, 600 is the overall preparation (Gaia) brought to
the altar of God to be altered once again. 60 is the man who stands in his
gross condition before the Lord, but who is a product of the 600
environment. 6 is the inner man, the microcosm that is inexorably linked to
this temple-body (60), who receives breath and manna from the 600.
    666 is the last stage before transformation. It is a critical juncture
where the last preparation of the previous days is ready to break from the
waters, and as Noah, arrive at a new Promised Land. Meanwhile, as we see
from the flood of purification, the temple is tossed to and fro and its
survival depends on obedience to an invisible God to prevent being broken up
and buried in the Great Deep.
    The Lord proclaims a cleansing vengeance before the great Transformation.
We all go through our 666 or we will be forever lost from higher realms.
Vengeance saves. It is hell, the Refiner's Fire, "the thing I feared most,"
says Job, that gives a hard birth to the promised man child. There is no
other way.
    666 is a beast of prey, the Great Dragon come to humble all, the
monstrous humiliator who gnashes with his teeth those cast into outer
darkness (space) on planet earth, come now to put down the selfishness of
man, in a word, his own serpent--his ego.
    We kill this monster with a sword, the sword of truth. It is not a
physical sword, but a spiritual sword, for it wounds only the hard heart of
one's spirit. Depending on our ability to see our darkness, it can be more
painful than physical agony. It is the final baptism required before
entering a new dimension.
    666 must be welcomed as we would welcome an army of devils. Armed only
with the sword of Truth, our faith in that sword will reveal the enemy as
only a paper dragon, easily slain. For those who finally see the Light,
their evil ways will be slain, but they shall live. Such is our spiritual
warfare and our victory.
    Sterling, I find the town of Ephraim and 666 appropriate symbols for
Isaiah 28. Until the fading flower of Ephraim allows the Sword of the Lord
to convert them, likened until a war (which it is), and likened to physical
killing (which it is not), the men of Ephraim will continue to dwindle and
fail their mission.
    I know I am behind. My address is only 665.
    --David

Enoch,

The idea that there is a sealed portion IN the Book of Mormon (and
Bible) we have now is precisely what I have proposed (for more than a
decade now) with the phenomenon of chiasms and parallels, both in the
words and in the history as a parallel to our day.
http://www.greaterthings.com/Parallels/

You see, comparing one line of text from one portion of scripture
with another line of text from another portion of scripture, and then
asking what they have to do with each other, produces new insights,
hidden insights, greater things.  Indeed the very prophecy about
greater things coming forth is woven into a series of chiasms and
paralells in such a way as to say that this is indeed the case for
those who have ears to hear, and that this itself is one of
the 'greater things' prophesied to come forth.  That is where I first
came up with the notion of naming these things 'greater things.'
That was the name of the bimonthly magazine I produced back in '92 to
publish these chiasms and parallels.  That is why I named my website
greaterthings.com in 1998.  More recently, I have expanded the focus
of the website to feature the many other 'greater things'
manifestations that are to be found right now.

While I believe that the chiasms and parallels (as well as other
means) are a profound method of finding a 'sealed' portion in what we
already have now, I do not believe that this implies that there is
not an actual 'sealed portion' -- another 2/3 of the gold plates --
that will yet be translated.

Rather, these tools we have now, such as chiasms and parallels, are
way to reward now those who will seek while the actual sealed portion
is yet to be unfolded.

It is in the spirit of Ether 12:19 that talks about those whose faith
was so strong they "could not be kept from within the veil, but truly
saw with their eyes the things which they HAD BEHELD with an eye of
faith."  You see, they saw, before they saw.

That is what chiasms and parallels facilitate -- seeing before we
see.  They provide a preparatory 'sealed portion' as prelude to the
real thing.  And our receiving of them helps expedite our receiving
of the actual tangible records.

And the timing of the coming forth of the actual 2/3, sealed portion,
is after the chastening destruction, after the redemption from
captivity, when the Lord reigns in our midst in the New Jerusalem.

That is when they came forth to the Nephites anciently -- after
Christ had truly manifest himself to them.  And that is when II Nephi
26 says they will come forth again in the latter days.

Sterling D. Allan
www.greaterthings.com



--- In davids_outcasts@y..., "Rev. Enoch Theos" <enochtheos@e...>
wrote:
> If we are told the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the
Gospel,
> perhaps the sealed portion is already sealed somehow within what we
> already have an then when we are able to figure that out, we will
> receive more. Like the Book of Abraham was written and translated
in a
> way that to the modern day translators at face value you appear to
be
> nothing more than funeral rites and parts of the book of the dead,
but
> coded by the gift of prophecy there is a deeper translation in the
> words.
>
> Anyone ever give thought to taking the book of Mormon and
retranslating
> or reinterpreting what is already there with the gift of prophecy?
I
> have given it some thought lately.
>
> Enoch

A quick thought.

As I was pulling together the "Laws in Zion" page, and listed the following:
"Honor the Sabbath day, recognizing that this seventh thousand-year period
is the Sabbath of the earth's existence.  It is the rest of the Lord and is
to be reverenced as such." the thought occurred to me that 'labor' and
'work' as described in the ten commandments will be no more during this next
millennium of peace when the earth is restored to its paradisiacal glory.
The curse of Adam, in which he had to work by the sweat of his brow' will be
removed.

I believe that this will be the case because in Zion, when people do what
they are gifted at and therefore which they do the best, the idea of 'work'
loses all negative connotation and becomes a joy.  Hence, there will be no
'work' in this coming millennial Sabbath of the Lord.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
http://www.patriotsaints.com/LawsinZion/

Introduction

A major difference between the coming government of God and the governments of the earth today, is that the individual will accept responsibility for his/her own actions.  The government will not have to dictate rules guiding every little facet of life.  Rather, there will be a set of less than 100 guiding principles or laws which will apply to any situation, that can easily be learned by any adult as well as be understood even by a child, by which the individual may guide his/her life, and to which they can easily be held accountable.  The question we ask here is, "what are those guiding principles?"

Eternal Laws/Principles for the Governance of the Ideal Society

We will present here a working and growing draft of what those laws might be.  Feel free to offer your input.  Are there categories into which these might be classified, associated, for example, with the seven chakras of the body, the seven creative periods described in the Bible?

The following laws/principles are presuming a voluntarily gathered society who agree to these terms before their implementation.

• Love the Lord and seek to bring your life into alignment with divine purposes.  In so doing, your life's mission will be a ministry of love, not of unfulfilling labor.

• Love one another, including your enemy.

• Celebrate the diversity of your fellow beings, honoring each for their unique contributions to society.

• Honor the Sabbath day, recognizing that this seventh thousand-year period is the Sabbath of the earth's existence.  It is the rest of the Lord and is to be reverenced as such.

• Do unto others as you would have others do to you.

• Readily forgive trespasses against you; turning the other check when wronged.

• Be true to your word, and present yourself truthfully.

• Sexual and emotional fidelity in marriage and proper restraint before marriage and outside of marriage.

• Do not take the life of another except when the law allows it such as in last-resort self defense and punishment of a prosecuted crime of the highest severity.

• Do not steal what belongs to another or is under their stewardship.

• Do not covet what belongs to another or is under their stewardship.

• Give freely of your substance as you are able and as need presents itself, that there might not be any poor among us.

• Do not bear false witness.  If you are found to knowingly wrongfully accuse another person, you will be charged as though guilty of the crime yourself.

• Honor your parents.

• etc.

Your input is invited and welcome as we work to come up with a viable set of less than 100 laws/principles that cover the gamut of human experience.

We are also looking for related websites, ministries, books, etc. as well to list on this index page.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
sterlingda@...

http://www.greaterthings.com/Holidays/Daysof47.htm

The 24th of July is a holiday in Utah, celebrating the entering of the
Mormon Pioneers into the Salt Lake Valley, when Brigham Young said, "This is
the right place."

>From that point on, the theme song for the LDS people here has been "Come,
Come, Ye Saints," with the refrain, "All is well, all is well."

"We'll find a place, which God for us prepared, far away in the West, where
none shall come to hurt or make afraid; there the Saints will be blessed."

Now, coming next year in 2002, Utah will be host to the World's Winter
Olympics.  It doesn't get much better than that.  All is indeed very well
here in Utah's Zion.

Or is it?

The successor venue for the Winter Olympics will be Beijing.

With the Mormons so anxious to do missionary work in China, no matter what
the cost, we can expect that they will be falling all over themselves to
kiss up to the bloody Chinese during this unprecedented opportunity to
springboard from their world-hosting event to that of their Chinese
comrades.

I wonder what percentage of those Mormons even have a clue as to the threat
the Chinese pose to them so far as having intentions to invade our country.
How many of them are aware of the numerous dreams and visions that some
remnant saints have had regarding Chinese troops being here in Utah,
patrolling the streets and the concentration camps that will be set up to
detain those unruly Mormons who refuse to go along with the socialist New
World Order and the implementation of the mark in the right hand or in the
forehead, without which no one may buy or sell.  Are they aware of how
senselessly brutal the Chinese soldiers are trained to be, both in torture
and in killing techniques?

"Where none shall come, to hurt or make afraid"?

Well, if they had not cried "all is well, all is well," but had been on
their toes instead as would behoove them as the people of God, such a thing
would not come to pass, for they would have kept it away by their vigilance.

Fortunately, God does not intend for this to be a Communist land.  He has
plans for its redemption.  Those who are vigilant in the Lord will see a
miraculous deliverance as this yoke is destroyed and the city of the New
Jerusalem is finally built -- a city of true peace, which peace will
eventually fill the whole earth  -- a government of God that will protect
the freedoms of all mankind.

So as we remember the sacrifices of our forbearers, may we bear in mind that
we are going to be called upon to make as difficult if not more difficult
sacrifices in the coming days before the Zion of God is established, not
just in name, but in its fully implemented splendor, "where none shall come,
to hurt or make afraid," not because of the "all is well" sentiment and the
slumber that engenders, but because its inhabitants are ever vigilant both
pertaining to the gospel as well as finally implementing the principles of
righteous government.

May we be part of that glorious day by aligning ourselves now with those
principles, that we be not cut off when the day of reckoning comes.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
www.greaterthings.com
www.patriotsaints.com

Dreams about Gordon B. Hinckley (Mormon Prophet) - Illustrating (1) behind-the-scenes ungodly leagues, (2) need for each person to have direct relationship God.
http://www.greaterthings.com/Dreams/GBH_pope.htm

http://www.greaterthings.com/Davidic_Servant/one_and_only.htm

Jared (and others),

My comments in reply to you are interspersed below.

Jared's comments are set off by the ">"
My previous comments are set off by "> >"
My current comments have no indentation.

First, I reciprocate your appreciation that we can have this dialogue in a
gentlemanly fashion rather than getting heated, for such discussions tend to
be that way.

I will  be linking to this comment from:
http://www.greaterthings.com/JaredSmith/
where the dialogue leading up to this exchange is also found.

Sterling

----- Original Message -----
From: <jared@...>
To: <davids_outcasts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:27 AM
Subject: [888] Re: Jared and John the Baptist



> As for me, having seen lives ruined by idle speculation on
> this topic.

Me too. [And now I learn after writing this up this reply (below) that your
brother was arrested for trying to blow up the Salt Lake temple; and that
there was a chapel in Missouri similarly threatened, for which jail and
prison time was served.]

> I will accept nothing less than pure revelation
> from God.

That, of course is a wonderful objective.  But we all know that the price
for receiving is asking.  Coming to a full revelation isn't always
instantaneous but rather comes a step at a time.  I believe that even Jesus'
mission was unfolded to him in mortality that way, and that he didn't know
in full what he was supposed to do until he had accomplished it in full.


> Show me where your
> beliefs are based on an authority higher than yourself, and
> I will be able to consider them.

Chiasms and parallels and alphabetics word-number studies are based in the
text of the scriptures and require each individual to have revealed to them
personally the significance of what is there.  I offer my take on what they
are showing, but I think one would have to be a world class skeptic to say
there is nothing there of merit to consider, or that these things don't have
anything to do with an unfolding of the topic at hand.

> As one who accepts the messages, I am commissioned
> to make that book available, not to defend it.

That seems odd to me.  Lukewarm.  Maybe I'm not catching your full meaning.

> What I am
> here defending is the fact that I am no claimant to the
> title of one mighty and strong.

Not directly, but you state very clearly that John the Beloved is, and that
you are at present his spokesman.  He himself is not here in the flesh doing
the work.  You are claiming to do it on his behalf.  You ask us to remove
you from the picture, but you are what we see, and the words are coming
through you.  Yes, it is reasonable for you to have us measure the words
independent of yourself.  Very reasonable indeed.  But it is not reasonable
for you to separate yourself from this mantle of "one mighty and strong"
when you are standing as the spokesman.  I will hand it to you, though, in
saying that it is noble indeed of you to deflect the praise and attention
from yourself, and direct it to who you believe to be the source of these
writings, John the Baptist, and ultimately to the Lord who is hopefully the
one behind this.

> In the
> messages, John the Baptist clearly cuts through speculation
> and declares that he fulfills several prophecies, including
> the one mighty and strong one.

There you said it as plain as could be (as you intended).

> I do not worship
> the book, and can quickly point several flaws out to you,
> which you have not noticed.

I applaud you for acknowledging that there are flaws, which places the onus
of responsibility back on the shoulders of the reader who is to discern all
things for him/herself.

> Please
> distinguish me from that book. What you are saying is
> akin to someone saying you believe that _you_ are
> the fulfillment of prophecies regarding Jesus
> Christ because you believe in the Bible.

This analogy does not work.  I never said I wrote the Bible (though I do
believe that many if not all of us in this forum helped from the other
side).

You are the one who put the words in print onto the paper for others to
read.  You are acting as an Isaiah of the Bible or as a Matthew.

There is a huge difference there.

Do you think Isaiah could get away with saying he takes no responsibility
for what he wrote because he was just writing the word of the Lord?

Hardly.

Nor do you get off the hook of accountability in this case, since you are
claiming that John the Baptist is dictating his message through you to the
world at this time.

> Jesus is your Lord, and thus you represent him,
> but you are not him, nor will you accept anyone claiming
> that you are him.

No, but part of "taking on the name of Jesus," is being willing to walk as
he walked, talk as he talked, etc.  And your case in relation to John the
Baptist is an extreme manifestation of this principle.

> The messages consistently call me away from contention,
> into humility, gentleness, and into love.

That's good.

> Thus, the pride of Ephraim _is_ broken in me
> as I continue to read this book and pray for the humbleness
> which it teaches.

That is good too.

> I am delighted in the fact that John
> the Baptist accepts the title of one mighty and strong--
> this way, I need look for no "man" or "group of men" to
> fulfill the prophecy.

What you are saying here is akin to what the Mormon church and other
religions say of themselves, namely that your way is the one true way.  John
the Baptist (speaking through you) is the One Mighty and Strong, and there
is no other.  That is why you don't accept my model that says (1) that there
are many ones mighty and strong who are to work together as a quorum seeking
for unity in the spirit of the body of Christ in bringing to pass a great
and marvelous work, and (2) that I myself and probably most everyone on this
forum is numbered among them, and that ultimately the entire quorum of
144,000 are given the title, "ONE mighty and strong," because of their unity
in the Lord.

In other words, I'm wrong because John the Baptist is the one (for whom you
are a spokesman), and there are no others.

I've not read all of the writings of which you speak.  I've only read a
small portion.  Apparently John the Baptist (via you and the two previous
spokesmen) has said this of himself (through you, which, gratefully, implies
a filter bias that we have the full prerogative to discern and refute).

> It is clearly in the hands of God,
> not man. But only by faith do I know these things. And
> what I know by faith cannot be argued against what you
> know by study.

What I know/believe is also by faith as well as study.

> > Third, as part of this scenario with John the Baptist,
> > as mentioned in the introductory material to "the Word
> > of the Lord," it is said that John the Baptist is the
> > "one like unto Moses" who Moses prophesied would come
> > in the last days, and all who would not hearken to his
> > words would be cut off from among the people.  Again,
> > you not only link to this introduction, but make
> > statements of affirmation to this idea in your own
> > introductory writings if I recall correctly.
>
> True. At no time do I declare this about myself or my
> own writings. I am a servant of others, yearning for,
> not contending against. The reason that is included in
> the introduction is because John the Baptism declares
> it, and so it is not a claim made by the fruit of study,
> but by the fruit of faith.

That's pretty plain.

I'll tell you right now that there are probably some thousand others on this
planet who are making claims very, very much like this one, which draw the
focus upon the dude/duddette that they are claiming to represent or
sometimes themselves as epitomizing the ultimate culmination of God's work
on the planet at this time.  Either they are confused or God is, and I don't
think that the latter possibility is the case.  Yet, each one holds
tenaciously to the believe that their thing is where it is at -- as if to
deny this would cut them off from the grace of God.  My what a hold their
paradigm has on them.

What I was trying to get at in my post about "ONE Mighty and Strong is a
united quorum," is to get people like you, and these thousands of others, to
realize that there are others like you and that you are not intended to work
alone as if the one and only, but that you are to work together,
supplementing and synergizing rather than dividing and contending.


> > Fourth, after this initial person died, another took
> > his place.  He died, and that left a void.  On your website
> > you say that you are the third, and now take his place
> > as a conduit for these messages that John the Baptist
> > has to impart to the world.  You don't claim to have
> > seen him, or even heard an audible voice, but rather
> > he dictates to you in your spirit and you write in
> > faith.  Yet, the verbiage of those writings is that
> > they are indeed the words of John the Baptist, and that
> > they are binding on the world.
>
> When you receive revelation from God, you have no desire
> to question whether it is true. Please understand that
> I am a person just like you, as flawed as any, and that
> to judge revelation I write by my actions would mean that
> you are "respecting the person," which I run away from.

I understand the sentiment about not wanting to question the revelation.
But I know from personal experience and from observing the experiences of
others that because we are not perfect filters for the word of the Lord, it
behooves us to accept the fact that there will be flaws in our
interpretation of what God gives us as 'revelation.'  The purpose of
recognizing that we are part of a very large plan, and being willing to work
together with others similarly called, is that such flaws can be overcome by
the strengths of others assisted by the grace of God, which helps us be
humble -- one of the cardinal attributes of receiving more pure revelation.

> Jesus Christ defends the book, and the Holy Spirit leads
> me in personal defense.

That is what they all say.

> That others may confuse my own
> words with the words of revelations I write is something
> which terrified me, and made me run away from the labor.

This is more rare for someone to acknowledge this, and speaks of a
significant measure of humility on your part that I find refreshing.

> But God brought me back, and said "I will justify these
> words, not you."

And that is the way it should be.  And I would further suggest that as the
Lord "justifies" the words that he will likewise remove some of the
not-so-pure stuff that came as a result of your being human and having that
filter imposed in your writings by virtue of your mortality.  And I would
dare say that one of the clarifications that the Lord will provide is that
this John the Baptist ministry through you is not the only one and only
mighty and strong ministry, but that you do indeed have some great things to
say that are of worth and are indeed part of bringing about the Zion for
which we all earnestly seek.

> > Hence, in seeking to capture this ministry of yours, I
> > chose the verbiage, "mantle of John the Baptist (?)".
> >
> > What am I missing here?
>
> Nothing. You missed nothing, and as Jordan commented,
> gave a concise summary of the Elijah Message, clearly
> written by one who loves and serves God and seeks the
> truth. If I compliment you here, then I run the risk
> of 'flattering' you into the way I see things, and so I
> will not speak about the quality of your analysis. But I
> will say that if you, Sterling, are given the authority
> to pronounce me as carrying the "mantle of John the
> Baptist," then I will know it because there is no
> question mark following. Until then, it is speculation,
> of which I want no part.

Sorry, but that question mark is what precedes the answer.  It is part of
the revelatory process.  What I am saying with the question mark is "I don't
know if this is the case, but there is something here worth our
consideration, both for possibly answering that question, and for learning
from the life of another person -- truth and error -- and for gleaning truth
as it is found."  Another thing I'm hoping to communicate with the question
mark is my disagreement with some of your paradigm as it pertains to John
the Baptist (via your dictation) being "THE" only one might and strong.

Nothing wrong with the question mark.

> We do not know all things: remember, when the Pharisees
> came to John the Baptist, and asked if he were Elijah,
> he said "No." Yet Jesus Christ later said that he was
> Elijah. Apparently, John the Baptist knew only a portion
> of his mission.

Excellent example.  Another point illustrated here that supports what I am
trying to say is that John was wrong to say he was not Elijah.  That did not
disqualify him as a servant of God, but it shows that he did not fully
understand what his mission entailed in relation to prophecy.

> In sum, this is an opportunity for me to clarify that I
> serve God, I am a co-laborer with John the Baptist, who
> cried "Repentance" in the wilderness, and I am able to
> say these things by the grace of Jesus Christ, who
> lifted me personally from the gutter. Praise God.
>
> -Jared.

Would to God that all the Lord's people were prophets.

This is not the day for one person to show off while everyone else grovels
beneath them.  I know you know that, and you are not seeking for that, but
your 'one and only' interpretation leans to that end of the pendulum.

I'm not suggesting hat you question the "revelations" you received -- only
your interpretation of them.  I am calling upon you and everyone else thus
afflicted (with the one and only syndrome), to consider the possibility that
your mission is meant to commingle with many others like it, and that the
whole will be far more grand than any of its parts alone -- and that so long
as you approach your ministry as if it is the one and only epitome, then you
inhibit the work of God which intends for you to do working with others and
recognize the value of their work along side of yours.

I'm not conjecturing as a mere idle observer either, for I've been in
immersed in this paradigm for some 14 years.

Heck, my 'revelations' given me through faith (to use comparable wording to
what you have used) have me being Heavenly Father come in the flesh among
the Mormons, on a parallel today with the Son of God coming among the Jews
anciently (first shall be last, last shall be first).  It's hard to top that
view of 'one mighty and strong.'  So you can see why it is so easy for me to
relate to your paradigm (and to see through it).  I would dare say that I
have an even larger collection of reasons to believe this 'revelation' about
myself than you do regarding your 'revelation.'  Whether or not I do does
not abrogate my point.  I now realize that I am but a portion of that
manifestation, and that it in its fullness the 'one mighty and strong'
phenomenon will be much larger than just me and the things the Lord and his
angels have brought forth at my hand.  Much, much, larger -- including you
and so many like you -- to the extent that we align ourselves with the will
and purposes of God, as dictated to us by our conscience.

Meanwhile, what a trip it is as we try and distinguish between brothers on
the path and those wandering in strange roads.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan

Jordan Smith > Brief Autobiographical Sketch
 Seeking and finding (7/20/01)
http://www.greaterthings.com/JordanSmith/brief_bio.htm

Hello,

I'm in the process of doing a major revamp of greaterthings.com

Hitherto, I have mainly treated it like "my" site, with some featuring of
the works of others.

What has been impressed on me lately is that I need to change this, for I do
not have a preferred monopoly on 'greater things' (something I've recognized
for quite some time, actually).  So now I'm going to create a separate index
for my stuff, like I have a separate index for Lynn, Susan, J.E.M., Randall
and Laura, Jared, etc; and I'm going to downplay my stuff in the main
navigation of the site.

One of the places where I need some help is on the "favorites" page
http://www.greaterthings.com/Favorites.htm

I have a listing of the most popular pages on the site.  That will stay
unchanged because that is a purely analytic measure of traffic volume.

Also on the page is a listing of my favorites, listing studies, books,
essays, etc. that I consider to be the most monumental in helping awaken and
bolster the remnant LDS world.  Perhaps I could add another section of
favorites geared toward the non-LDS world.

Anyway, I admittedly have a strong bias toward the studies I've done,
considering all the blood, sweat and tears that went into them; and the
epiphanies I experienced along the way as well.

Right now all twelve 'recommendations' are of my own composition.  I feel
the need to include the writings of others as well, removing some of the
ones by myself from that list.

So what I'm asking is if you could provide me with some recommendations to
be included in the 'favorites' list.  I don't mind if they are writings of
your own, in fact I kind of expect that those of you who have things posted
at greaterthings.com (and even elsewhere) will provide me with a list of
your top three favorite documents that you have ever produced.  Also, I
would not mind if you provided a suggestion as to where they should appear
in the ranking (e.g. at the top, or in the fifth position, etc) compared to
the current listing.  I will expect, however, that if you make such a
recommendation that you be at least moderately familiar with the documents
you would be 'surpassing' with your recommendation.

Perhaps, as I get a list of candidate listings together, we could place them
before you for a vote.

Thanks for your time.

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
www.greaterthings.com

Below is Lynn's excellent reply to Sid.  I applaud this one as well.  Bravo.

I'll post this one right after Sid's comment under 'feedback' at
http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/HomeChurch/

My, what an amazing dialogue this post has evoked.

Sterling

----- Original Message -----
From: "L.M. Enterprises" <htrails@...>
To: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [ridenhour] But there are gifts abundantly manifest among the
faithful Mormons!


About spiritual gifts.....

As we've said before--the believer lives in a steady state of wholesome
tension between character and charisma

Most people tend to emphasize one side or the other. They are usually more
charisma-oriented or character-oriented. Whichever side one is on, he tends
to be biased toward that side and to lean away from the other. Both sides
are fully necessary without exception. It is the healthy state of a believer
to find himself pulled in both directions.

We need to have both areas fully developed in our lives. If one walks in the
charisma of God without integrity, he is a phony and a loud-sounding cymbal.
If he continues to seek supernatural experience without the guidelines of
moral character, he can be soon led off into false prophecy and
self-deception.

On the other hand, if a man says he is developing character because it is
more important than charisma, his character may not be filled with the life
and love of God. He may say love is more important than faith, but the love
of neighbor stems out of the love of God, which comes first.

If one truly is developed in character, he will be brought more and more to
an awareness of his absolute inability to do anything outside of the full
spiritual power of God. His very character and integrity will lead him to
see his own need for more than just character.   If his character is truly
genuine, it will catapult him into the live of charisma. If one pleads his
case always for character to the avoidance of charisma, that character is
either not genuine or it has not been developed to its full extent. True
character must cross the line into depending on the miraculous power of God.

As an old Baptist minister once said to me, "the Word without the Spirit
will make a Pharisee out of you.  The Spirit without the Word will make a
phony out of you.."

I like to say it this way:  The Word without the Spirit will make you dry
up.  The Spirit without the Word will make you blow up.  The Word with the
Spirit will make you grow up.

I know it's a cliché, but it says what I want it to say.

Just a couple things about Sid's letter.  And by the way, I enjoyed Sid's
letter immensely.  And essentially agree and rejoice in what he's saying.
To begin with, Sid's letter accents what we have believed for some time-and
that is, the Lord in these last days will pour out His Spirit on all groups.
I am totally convinced, the Lord will and is visiting our LDS brothers &
sisters.  We rejoice in that.  It's my firm belief that the Lord is visiting
all restoration groups; i.e., LDS, RLDS, Culterites, Strangites, Temple Lot,
Elijah Messenger-all of them.  He is also visiting the Protestants &
Catholics.  His Word says "...all flesh."  I rejoice in that.  That means-He
's visiting the "churched" and the non-churched.

Secondly, I only see two alternatives:  1) a visitation of the real fire of
the Holy Ghost, along with some wild fire (it's inevitable), and/or 2) no
fire.  Sid made mention of some potential excesses of display at the end of
his letter.  I must say, I'm with Rick Joyner on this one:

Joyner, in his book "The World Aflame," a study of the past Welsh Revival,
says:

"Few would question that some of the emotional demonstrations still found in
Pentecostal or Charismatic meetings are rooted in attention seeking, and
sometimes they may even be demonic.  But those who condemn such meetings
because of the outbursts would have to also condemn the Lord's own meetings.
When He walked the earth, there were the same kind of outbursts in His
gatherings.  [good point]

Contrary to some popular teachings, love is an emotion.  The Lord Jesus
actually encouraged emotional demonstrations of love for Him, such as the
pouring out of the costly ointment and even the washing of His feet with
tears.

What husband would want to hear from his wife that she no longer feels
anything for him but serves him because it is her duty?  What wife would
care to be told by her husband that he loved her with the power of his will
even though he had no feelings for her?  Even though the marriage may still
exist, the life is gone.  Those who serve the Lord only by their will and
not with their emotions have likewise lost the life in their union with the
Lord.  Do you think the Lord receives our hymns during worship if we are
only singing out of duty and do not feel anything for Him?  Just as the Lord
exhorted through many of His prophets, such worship is vain.  True worship
can only be found in the proper balance between the will and the emotions,
but we must have both.

When people have been subject to nothing but cold, lifeless religion and are
suddenly touched by the living God, it is impossible for most not to become
emotional, and thy often go to the other extreme for awhile, becoming too
emotional.  It is of course best to be properly balanced, but if we must
have an extreme, it would certainly be better to be extreme in our show of
emotion to Him.  Our Pharisaical nature will always be offended at this,
just as they were in the Lord's meetings.  Yet, when we become raging
maniacs at our favorite sporting event, this only shows who we really
worship.

It is impossible to feel God's presence without feeling a passionate love
for Him...Though it may be unintentional, those who attack emotional
responses to the Lord, are, in fact, stealing the life from our worship.
Emotions are not meant to be the thermostat of human personality, but they
are a relatively accurate thermometer.  That is, our emotions should not
control us, but they do reveal us."  --The World Aflame, pp.111,112

I think Joyner covers all the bases.

I can say from personal experience, every miracle my wife and I have
witnessed, has brought a spontaneous display of varied emotions:  humble
gratitude, extreme joy & elation, surprise, a sense of being overwhelmed,
great relief, laughter, tears, talking a mile a minute.  And the emotions
were not solicited.  That's the common trait with all the miracles we've
witnessed.   Responses were more like an outburst.  And typically, the
person or persons receiving the miracle would say something like "...this is
not at all like me..."

One last matter.

Mark makes the statement at the end of his gospel, "...and these signs shall
follow them that believe..." (16:17).  Again, a cliché fits what I want to
say.

Believers are not to follow signs; signs follow believers.

We do not seek miracles & manifestations.  We are always to seek the Lord of
miracles.  How-and if--He chooses to manifest Himself is completely up to
Him, and really-it's none of our business.  Our focus is on Him.  It's been
my experience ever since my wife and I experienced the baptism in the Holy
Spirit-more times than not He has chosen to manifest Himself.

Lynn

----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan <sterlingda@...>
To: David's Outcasts e-group <davids_outcasts@egroups.com>; Sterling's
Friends <SDAfriends@yahoogroups.com>; Ridenhour e-group
<ridenhour@yahoogroups.com>; Greater Things Newsletter
<Greater_Things@yahoogroups.com>; Greater Things Christian Newsletter
<gt_christian@egroups.com>; Sterling's Biggies <SDAbiggies@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 6:17 PM
Subject: [ridenhour] But there are gifts abundantly manifest among the
faithful Mormons!


> Sid makes a very power case here, and I tend to go with him on this one,
> especially on his point about signs being something that follow, not
> something for show (which, Lynn, I can't help but think is the tendency
> among the charismatics as well as you to a certain extent. no?).  I will
> vouch with you that there are still outpourings of gifts of the Spirit in
> the CJC.  By the way, CJC stands for "Church of Jesus Christ."  This is
the
> first time I've seen that one.  It won't be the last!
>
> Thanks, Sid, for writing this up.  It has done more than almost any other
> thing you have written to pull my feelings back toward one of respect for
> the Church.  I will be adding it to the "Why I Quit Church" follow-up
> section.
>
> http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/HomeChurch/
>
> Sterling
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sid Unrau Gentleman and Father" <sidunrau@...>
> To: <sterlingda@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:36 PM
> Subject: Sid's New Comments
>
>
> Sterling:
>
> Yes, I think you're right about what Lynn was referring to; I have been
> reading MUCH lately and I think I misremembered his focus (although teh
> stuff I mentioned is included, I think).  But, concerning your direct
> question about gifts of the Spirit, below, they are more private than some
> of the events reported in the New Testament (or other scriptures, for that
> matter), and yet they are pretty constant in the CJC communite.  There are
> some notable recent rather amazing events (almost public; I say "almost"
> because some in attendance did not witness the same things - similar to
the
> Brigham Young/Joseph Smith transformation (it is actually attested in only
> VERY few journals; the reason for the story's popularity is that some of
> those who did witness it were GA's who later testified of it in
conference),
> such as: the overflowing of the Spirit at recent temple dedications
(Palmyra
> & Winter Quarters), the dedication of the Conference Center (some reported
> seeing angels), and various reports from Area conferences (most recent I
> know if was a couple of weeks ago in San Antonio, when the new temple was
> announced).  On a smaller (but still mostly public) level, we see the
gifts
> of the Spirit manifest all the time; in two recent baptismal meetings in
our
> ward (and during one subsequent confirmation) we experienced the gift of
> tongues (for the confirmation, several ward members understood certain
> specific blessings given, even though they didn't speak Spanish, the
> language the confirmation was performed in), healings (we've had several
> rather remarkable healings, including the single mom on her death bed who
> was commanded to rise up and walk; she did, and her doctors have scrambled
> to provide alternative explanations; one of my close friends is an ICU
nurse
> at the UVRMC hospital and she says the healing miracles there are legion),
> and angelic ministering at a leadership meeting I attended earlier this
year
> in the Provo Tabernacle with Elder Ballard (I arrived to the meeting late,
> as I was attending a funeral, but many there saw angels as Elder Ballard
> bore his testimony of his apostolic call; a similar event happened on my
> mission - while I was out calling for the cab to take my district to the
> train station, the visiting GA bore his testimony in Danish, and several -
> even some non-members - saw angels; I felt that but did not "see" that; I
> have seen other things).
>
> As you know, the list of "gifts of the Spirit" is much longer than the one
> you suggest.  In our more private meetings - setting apart people for
> callings, sometimes issuing the callings themselves, family home evenings,
> etc. - I have also personally witnessed many many manifestations of the
> gifts of the Spirit.  Two most poignant such experiences whilst I have
been
> in the bishopric include a re-fellowshipment disciplinary counsel and a
> temple recommend interview.
>
> But my experiences are not unique to me or my ward or my perspective; a
> quick polling of my (faithful CJC) friends in Arkansas, Washington,
> Wisconsin, Texas, Indiana, Utah, Nevada and Arizona confirm that these
kinds
> of events are manifest all the time; some have eyes to see, some don't.
>
> So, ultimately, I do not agree that these things are not abundantly
manifest
> in the lives of CJC churchmembers; in fact, it seems to me that the kinds
of
> longings expressed (by Lynn, etc.) seem almost to be seeking a sign.
> Rather, signs FOLLOW (i.e., are not necessarily are invoked) those who
> believe.
>
> Incidentally, one thing Joseph taught was that heavenly manifestations
> always were enlightening (i.e., not merely for the sake of manifestation,
> but had some revelatory purpose).  One of my baptist cousins is a preacher
> and told me that one of the "activities" he has been involved with is
> "awakenings" where the congregants raise hands, shout Hallelujah!, jump
> around, sometimes speak in some jibberish, etc.; he explained the euphoric
> excitement of such experiences.  I asked them how he thought they
uplifted,
> brought people closer to the Savior (and living right), etc. and he said
> that such experiences were the validation of the exercise of faith.  I
asked
> him if he personally knew any who were actually uplifted by the whole
> experience after having exercised faith; he explained that the "faith" he
> was referring to was that expressed there in the meeting, and that
whatever
> actions they had done outside the meeting had no bearing on their
> spirituality.  This doesn't seem like a correct principle to me.
>
> Sid
>
> --------------
> Sid,
>
> I believe what Lynn Ridenhour is referring to in talking about the
> 'laboratory' experience is not so much the roll-up-the-sleeves and be
> personally involved situation you describe.  I think he is referring to
the
> exercise of the gifts of the spirit -- tongues, prophesying, giving a word
> of knowledge, healing, etc.
>
> When was the last time you did THAT in one of your PEC or even FHE
meetings?
>
> Sterling
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sid Unrau Gentleman and Father" <sidunrau@...>
> To: <sterlingda@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:36 AM
> Subject: Sid's Questions/Comments
>
>
> Sterling:
>
> How do you (personally or as a group) feel persecuted?  I was surprised to
> read that in your letter (I know you are not a member of the Church, is
that
> what you are referring to?).
>
> Yesterday's reading from Lynn Ridenhour was interesting, but the
perspective
> demonstrated a lack of experience.  Have you ever been on the Ward
Council?
> Since I've been on the ward counsel (various positions; currently in the
> bishopric) I get to see "first hand" how the "experiment on the Word" is
> carried out; it is amazing.  And (Nibley once said that the best kept
secret
> in the Church is the gospel) I didn't realize how much it is emphasized
> UNTIL I was on the ward council that such "lab experiences" are actually
to
> happen (and promoted to happen) in EVERY CJC home (each General Conference
> stresses this; it is little understood, but refreshingly I find many
having
> family home evenings, family counsels, etc. - those are ALL such "cottage
> experiences" Lynn seemed to find missing in CJC culture) regularly.
> Furthermore, home teaching and visiting teaching experiences are supposed
to
> be such "labs."  So I disagree that such things are not promoted by the
> Church; they absolutely are.
>
> Sid
>
>

Sid makes a very power case here, and I tend to go with him on this one,
especially on his point about signs being something that follow, not
something for show (which, Lynn, I can't help but think is the tendency
among the charismatics as well as you to a certain extent. no?).  I will
vouch with you that there are still outpourings of gifts of the Spirit in
the CJC.  By the way, CJC stands for "Church of Jesus Christ."  This is the
first time I've seen that one.  It won't be the last!

Thanks, Sid, for writing this up.  It has done more than almost any other
thing you have written to pull my feelings back toward one of respect for
the Church.  I will be adding it to the "Why I Quit Church" follow-up
section.

http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/HomeChurch/

Sterling


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sid Unrau Gentleman and Father" <sidunrau@...>
To: <sterlingda@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 4:36 PM
Subject: Sid's New Comments


Sterling:

Yes, I think you're right about what Lynn was referring to; I have been
reading MUCH lately and I think I misremembered his focus (although teh
stuff I mentioned is included, I think).  But, concerning your direct
question about gifts of the Spirit, below, they are more private than some
of the events reported in the New Testament (or other scriptures, for that
matter), and yet they are pretty constant in the CJC communite.  There are
some notable recent rather amazing events (almost public; I say "almost"
because some in attendance did not witness the same things - similar to the
Brigham Young/Joseph Smith transformation (it is actually attested in only
VERY few journals; the reason for the story's popularity is that some of
those who did witness it were GA's who later testified of it in conference),
such as: the overflowing of the Spirit at recent temple dedications (Palmyra
& Winter Quarters), the dedication of the Conference Center (some reported
seeing angels), and various reports from Area conferences (most recent I
know if was a couple of weeks ago in San Antonio, when the new temple was
announced).  On a smaller (but still mostly public) level, we see the gifts
of the Spirit manifest all the time; in two recent baptismal meetings in our
ward (and during one subsequent confirmation) we experienced the gift of
tongues (for the confirmation, several ward members understood certain
specific blessings given, even though they didn't speak Spanish, the
language the confirmation was performed in), healings (we've had several
rather remarkable healings, including the single mom on her death bed who
was commanded to rise up and walk; she did, and her doctors have scrambled
to provide alternative explanations; one of my close friends is an ICU nurse
at the UVRMC hospital and she says the healing miracles there are legion),
and angelic ministering at a leadership meeting I attended earlier this year
in the Provo Tabernacle with Elder Ballard (I arrived to the meeting late,
as I was attending a funeral, but many there saw angels as Elder Ballard
bore his testimony of his apostolic call; a similar event happened on my
mission - while I was out calling for the cab to take my district to the
train station, the visiting GA bore his testimony in Danish, and several -
even some non-members - saw angels; I felt that but did not "see" that; I
have seen other things).

As you know, the list of "gifts of the Spirit" is much longer than the one
you suggest.  In our more private meetings - setting apart people for
callings, sometimes issuing the callings themselves, family home evenings,
etc. - I have also personally witnessed many many manifestations of the
gifts of the Spirit.  Two most poignant such experiences whilst I have been
in the bishopric include a re-fellowshipment disciplinary counsel and a
temple recommend interview.

But my experiences are not unique to me or my ward or my perspective; a
quick polling of my (faithful CJC) friends in Arkansas, Washington,
Wisconsin, Texas, Indiana, Utah, Nevada and Arizona confirm that these kinds
of events are manifest all the time; some have eyes to see, some don't.

So, ultimately, I do not agree that these things are not abundantly manifest
in the lives of CJC churchmembers; in fact, it seems to me that the kinds of
longings expressed (by Lynn, etc.) seem almost to be seeking a sign.
Rather, signs FOLLOW (i.e., are not necessarily are invoked) those who
believe.

Incidentally, one thing Joseph taught was that heavenly manifestations
always were enlightening (i.e., not merely for the sake of manifestation,
but had some revelatory purpose).  One of my baptist cousins is a preacher
and told me that one of the "activities" he has been involved with is
"awakenings" where the congregants raise hands, shout Hallelujah!, jump
around, sometimes speak in some jibberish, etc.; he explained the euphoric
excitement of such experiences.  I asked them how he thought they uplifted,
brought people closer to the Savior (and living right), etc. and he said
that such experiences were the validation of the exercise of faith.  I asked
him if he personally knew any who were actually uplifted by the whole
experience after having exercised faith; he explained that the "faith" he
was referring to was that expressed there in the meeting, and that whatever
actions they had done outside the meeting had no bearing on their
spirituality.  This doesn't seem like a correct principle to me.

Sid

--------------
Sid,

I believe what Lynn Ridenhour is referring to in talking about the
'laboratory' experience is not so much the roll-up-the-sleeves and be
personally involved situation you describe.  I think he is referring to the
exercise of the gifts of the spirit -- tongues, prophesying, giving a word
of knowledge, healing, etc.

When was the last time you did THAT in one of your PEC or even FHE meetings?

Sterling

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sid Unrau Gentleman and Father" <sidunrau@...>
To: <sterlingda@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:36 AM
Subject: Sid's Questions/Comments


Sterling:

How do you (personally or as a group) feel persecuted?  I was surprised to
read that in your letter (I know you are not a member of the Church, is that
what you are referring to?).

Yesterday's reading from Lynn Ridenhour was interesting, but the perspective
demonstrated a lack of experience.  Have you ever been on the Ward Council?
Since I've been on the ward counsel (various positions; currently in the
bishopric) I get to see "first hand" how the "experiment on the Word" is
carried out; it is amazing.  And (Nibley once said that the best kept secret
in the Church is the gospel) I didn't realize how much it is emphasized
UNTIL I was on the ward council that such "lab experiences" are actually to
happen (and promoted to happen) in EVERY CJC home (each General Conference
stresses this; it is little understood, but refreshingly I find many having
family home evenings, family counsels, etc. - those are ALL such "cottage
experiences" Lynn seemed to find missing in CJC culture) regularly.
Furthermore, home teaching and visiting teaching experiences are supposed to
be such "labs."  So I disagree that such things are not promoted by the
Church; they absolutely are.

Sid

Kim (and others),

Try this on for size.

The Jews were expecting a government of God (second coming), they got the
gospel in stead (first coming).

The Christians in general and Mormons in particular are focused on the
gospel (first coming), but are supposed to building on that foundation and
establishing a righteous government of freedom (second coming).  [The first
shall be last, and the last shall be first.]

In 1890 the LDS Church gave up that quest in order to attain Utah statehood.
It was a precondition imposed by the U.S. Govt.

Ever since then, "the kingdom of God" to a Mormon means only the gospel.
The idea of a government doesn't even come to mind.

Meanwhile, Satan has been having a hay day establishing his kingdom of world
socialist government.

Because the Mormons (and Christians in general) do not realize the depth of
their responsibility toward sustaining freedom, and because they do not
become informed on the issues (though there are refreshing exceptions), what
is happening is that many are actually not only not sustaining freedom but
are promoting socialist programs.  Leavitt, for example.  Hatch, for
example.  Jeannette Hales Beck (LDS Gen. Relief Society now), my Dad's
cousin, was a member of Utah State legislature, and she promoted many
programs of a socialist bend.  I ran for the seat she vacated in 1980(?).
She told me point blank that she "knows the brethren," and she
(paraphrasing) "knows that they do not believe as Ezra Taft Benson so
emphatically stated that there is a secret combination or conspiracy to set
up a world socialist dictatorship."  Nor do they believe some socialism is
all that bad, according to her. She actually, is quite conservative compared
to many, and this is what she had to say.

So there you have it.  The people of God who were supposed to establish the
kingdom of God, both gospel and government, are, instead, persecuting the
patriots (such as myself and others like me who try to defend the
constitution, etc), and actually getting in bed with the socialist world.

So, when the Beast arises and takes dominion of the entire earth, guess who
will be most responsible or culpable for their success?

Yep.  The Mormons and the Christians in General.

We were designated to oppose that kingdom and set up the kingdom of God
instead.  But we have done the opposite.

For that, we are going to be in big trouble when the tribulations begin.
"Upon my house shall it begin."  In my opinion (based on extensive prophecy
study), the Mormons are going to get the biggest dose of persecution when
all hell breaks loose because they did not stop this beast but allowed it to
get above them.  They, more than any other people, could have stopped it had
they employed the full potential of the powers of righteousness at their
disposal.

Ironically, I came to this conclusion, by "following the prophet" at the
time, Ezra Taft Benson, studying the issues pertaining to freedom and the
threats to it.  He had written many books on this subject and had given many
powerful sermons in General Conference on the subject.

But "following the prophet" today, Gordon B. Hinckley, one would hardly know
that there is any such danger lurking, when in fact we are in a more
precarious situation today than ever before.  Our enemies are more powerful,
more capable, more prepared to trounce us, as we have disarmed while they
have built up their forces.  But nary a peep do we hear about this from the
brethren today.

Indeed, as Moroni described it, we are in "an awful situation" for having
allowed this secret combination to get above us that seeks to overthrow the
freedom of all lands, nations, and countries.

That is why I promote the idea of the need to be involved in promoting BOTH
the gospel and the government of God.  Hence the website
www.patriotsaints.com

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
www.greaterthings.com
www.patriotsaints.com

Why I Quit Church! And Started Attending Love Feasts
Most all of the forms now inextricably associated with Sunday worship services are not scriptural but are pagan add-ons. A call to return to spontaneous living room gatherings.
http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/HomeChurch/

Hello again,

I would like to invite you to subscribe to a newsletter service I have
started, described below.  Just hit "reply" to this message and send it,
then reply to the automated confirmation message that you will receive from
Yahoo!Groups, and you will be on.

Try it out.  You can always unsubscribe later if you decide its not for you.
Instructions for unsubscribing come with each message sent through the
newsletter.

VEGAN-NEWS
Edited by Sterling D. Allan
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vegan_News/join
(click to join)

FOCUS:
Current events of interest to Vegans, who prefer that 'nothing is to die
that I might live' -- nothing with eyes anyway.

AUDIENCE:
Geared more toward politically conservative vegans.

FREQUENCY:
Less than one post per two days.

HOME PAGE:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Health/Vegan/

QUOTE OF THE DAY by GreaterThings.com:

(see below for related announcement of NEW FEATURES)

=======================

     "If you believe, as I do, that one important measure of our humanity is
our regard for other living beings, then the grisly practices of industrial
ranching are immoral."

-- John Balzar, LA Times, July 13, 2001
(See full article below)

=======================

Digest of astonishing statements that build faith, inspire action, instill
repentance, stir deep reflection, awaken the sleepyhead giants of Zion.

http://www.GreaterThings.com/Wisdom/Quote/

=======================

NEW INDEX AT GREATERTHINGS.COM

Vegan
http://www.greaterthings.com/Health/Vegan/

DESCRIPTION
Not just a diet but an attitude of reverence for the sanctity of life.  Not
just for health, but for spiritual appreciation and acknowledgement of God's
creations.

=======================

Announcing Related Newsletter:
by Sterling D. Allan

VEGAN-NEWS
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vegan_News/join
(click to join)

FOCUS:
Current events of interest to Vegans, who prefer that 'nothing is to die
that I might live' -- nothing with eyes anyway.

AUDIENCE:
Geared more toward politically conservative vegans.

FREQUENCY:
Less than one post per two days on average.

HOME PAGE:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Health/Vegan/

=======================

LA TIMES ARTICLE -- FULL TEXT

Cruel Slaughter of Food Hits a Nerve
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000057290jul13.story?coll=
la

JOHN BALZAR
First it was McDonald's. Then Burger King. Now it's one of the titans of the
U.S. Senate. Suddenly, mainstream America is beginning to show sympathy for
the animals in our food chain.

The humane movement, too often ridiculed for its overwrought emotionalism
and scattershot priorities, has begun chalking up solid, sensible gains
against the unimaginable cruelty inflicted on chickens, cattle and pigs by
the nation's industrial food producers.

In the words of Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.), "I believe the American people
are concerned and are becoming increasingly sensitive to the treatment of
animals. Reports of cruelty to animals through improper livestock production
and slaughter practices have hit a nerve." It's about high time.

No issue in the human-animal relationship, as I see it, cries out for
righting as much as society's disregard for the mistreatment and suffering
of food-producing creatures.

If you believe, as I do, that one important measure of our humanity is our
regard for other living beings, then the grisly practices of industrial
ranching are immoral.

I'm speaking of what is hidden from sight: such horrors as the butchering of
live steers, the periodic starving of chickens to stimulate greater egg
production and the rigid confinement of animals in cages where they can
hardly move for the entirety of their lives.

Some of these commonplace practices occur in regular defiance of federal
law; others are not regulated. All are done in the name of efficiency.

For many years, the animal rights movement addressed the problem chiefly by
urging people to eat vegetarian. Other issues consumed their day-to-day
energy. They protested fur. They complained about puppy mills. They vilified
hunting.

They left many sympathizers uncomfortably on the sidelines. Me among them. I
still eat meat, wear leather shoes and support ethical hunting. Yes, I allow
that sacrificing animals to sustain ourselves is cause for debate and
reflection in an advanced society. But there is nothing whatsoever worthy of
debate about raising pigs in crates too small for them to turn around in.

I have long believed that humane organizations overlooked potential areas
where they could broaden their consensus, even as they pursued their lofty
goals. Many thoughtful hunters, for instance, share the vegan's revulsion
when they learn about a slaughterhouse that cuts the hooves off live cattle.

In the late 1990s, animal rights activists changed their priorities. People
for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, or PETA, challenged McDonald's. Not so
much for serving meat but for being party to a system of cruelty. In August
2000, McDonald's capitulated and agreed to only buy meat from suppliers that
could ensure minimum humane treatment of livestock. On June 28, PETA secured
even grander promises from Burger King. Now, Wendy's is feeling the
pressure.

I have disagreed with PETA in the past. But in this case, I say bravo. PETA
is not just the most raucous of the big humane groups, but it deserves the
trophy right now for doing the most for the largest number of animals--those
that feed us.

As a result of McDonald's new policies, the cages that hold 5 million
egg-laying hens will be doubled in size. To better its rival, Burger King
said it would insist that its suppliers provide even more space for
chickens. Both companies said they would not buy from egg producers that
withheld food from animals for days at a time to promote molting and
increased egg production.

The chain-reaction success of these activist campaigns and the purchasing
clout of the fast-food giants may add up to nothing less than a revolution
in American ranching. Some activist leaders say that it's only a matter of
time before most ranchers and slaughterhouses are brought into line.

As remarkable as these developments have been, they still didn't prepare
some in the humane movement for the moment this week when Byrd rose on the
Senate floor to pay tribute to animals and to join in denouncing the
cruelties of industrial livestock handling. At Byrd's urging, the Senate
approved $3 million for the Department of Agriculture to increase
enforcement of humane laws and to research methods to ease the suffering of
food animals.

"Never has a senator taken to the floor like this, and nobody of his stature
has ever said these things," explained Wayne Pacelle, vice president of the
nation's largest animal-rights organization, the Humane Society of the
United States.

One by one, Byrd denounced the various ways in which farm animals are
tortured. "It is sickening. It is infuriating. Barbaric treatment of
helpless, defenseless creatures must not be tolerated even if these animals
are being raised for food. . . . Oh, these are animals, yes, but they, too,
feel pain."

"I could not have said it better myself," said Sean Gifford, spokesman for
PETA.

Me either.

============================

Forwarded by Vegan News Service
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vegan_News/
and
http://www.greaterthings.com/Health/Vegan/

"Nothing else is to die that I might live"
-- Thomas L. Rodgers

New essay:
http://www.greaterthings.com/Davidic_Servant/ONE_mighty_and_strong.htm

Itching Ears and Longing Hearts;
Finding the One Mighty and Strong

by Sterling D. Allan
Greater Things
July 14, 2001


OVERVIEW
Another One Mighty and Strong claimant with a heavily invested
paradigm, who no doubt is an earnest seeker of the Lord and desirous
to be an instrument in his hands, but who is overextending his
calling in a way menacing to his fellow-laborers who are also called
to the work and are meant to work together.  May we all learn from
this counterproductive pattern that we see repeated so many times,
and into which many of us have ourselves at times fallen.  May we
finally work as one, that "one," in "One Mighty and Strong" might
mean "a united team."

Regarding, as an example,
http://www.trios.org/fireinzion/wordofthelord/index.html
specifically
http://www.trios.org/fireinzion/wordofthelord/WordoftheLord1-33.pdf
as linked from
http://www.trios.org/
with follow-up at
http://www.trios.org/fireinzion/tenmessages/

============================

AN OPEN LETTER TO ALL ONES MIGHTY AND STRONG

Hi Jared,

As I begin reading "The Word of the Lord" document linked from your
site, I must say I have some misgivings about having linked to it
from greaterthings.com, so I have removed the link to it for now.  I
had thought it was something you had written.  I guess the
pending "Elijah Message" is to be your compilation of "The Word of
the Lord."

You or Jordan have talked about this some at David's Outcasts in the
past.

Apparently it begins in 1927 with a supposed angelic messenger
appearing to an Otto Fetting.

In the first message given, he was told, supposedly by the angel John
the Baptist, that the temple (at Far West?) was soon to be built, and
a specific year of 1929 was given.

Anyway, it is now 2001 and that temple is yet to be built.  I suppose
you and others who believe in these revelations have your reasons for
dismissing or explaining this away.  It just seems to me that if the
whole foundation of this supposed "word of the Lord" is so far off,
then why place so much spiritual credence and energy in what came
subsequent to that?  Here you are in 2001 still promoting this.

I guess there is such a case of "itching ears" that anything that
purports to be from the throne of God and half-way sounds like it
could be and incorporates scripture-like themes is fair game for the
longing heart of man to go after it.

There are tons of so-called "revelations" like this one floating
about the world.  They have a ring of scripture to them, and speak in
terms that resonate with the people that adhere to them.

I suppose a people could worship a rock and if their hearts were
right it would bring them closer to God at least for a time,
exploring the various "truths" or metaphors of life contained in that
rock.  And the "religion" or "denomination" surrounding that belief
would no doubt have instances of good fruit by which its adherents
would be inclined to perpetuate its dogmas as a whole, even though it
would be the slivers of truth found within that belief system that
would be responsible for the good fruits, not the dogma as a whole.

As I read the introductory material for "The Word of the Lord," it
seems clear to me that not only do the adherents view this as
a "revelation," but they see in it a fulfillment of Moses' prophecy
in which he said, "A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you,
like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things."

It is, in essence, not just another revelation, but essentially
amounts -- in our vernacular -- to a purported fulfillment of the
Davidic Servant role in the latter-days.  It is yet another claimant
to be the ultimate fulfillment of that calling as outlined at
http://www.greaterthings.com/Davidic_Servant/

Apparently you view yourself as the third successor to the mantle of
Fetting, and that you are now supposedly called to fulfill a
continuation of this Elijah message -- the mouthpiece for John the
Baptist in our day, the fulfilling of Moses' prophecy.
http://www.trios.org/fireinzion/tenmessages/

The first of ten messages received through you is replete with
language to this effect.

Purportedly, you are the mouthpiece, and the word you provide will
cause all the souls of men living in our day to hang in the balance
for salvation or damnation.

I remember reading the above page some time ago.  It is just now that
I am putting two and two together -- you, and these words.

As I mentioned the other day, your post introducing yourself, telling
of your days of hitchhiking, of being in and out of mental hospitals
and jail, of being redeemed from this hell by the Lord, of seeing his
face, and then of a street preacher saying to you, "You are John the
Baptist" (meaning. as I saw it, that you have that mantle), touched
me deeply, as it is a wonderful illustration of the prodigal son
scenario.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/davids_outcasts/message/5962

Now as I review this with added information from reading further in
your website, I am not so enthused about what now shows as a very
strong agenda which is not wholly in line with truth.

Certainly, as a child of God and foreordained warrior in these latter
days, you have much to offer the world, including your revealing new
and important understandings that can be a blessing for all.

However, it is my perception (and I don't claim to have a perfect
perception, for I am working out my own salvation with fear and
trembling along with the rest of you) that by overextending the scope
and grandeur of your mission, despite your words of professed
humility in that calling, you are opening yourself to deception.

This 'one mighty and strong' calling of the latter days is composed
of a large cross section of individuals called of God.  Each of the
144,000 are after this order, if I understand correctly.  Some roles
might be more 'grandiose than others in terms of their visibility and
immediate impact, but in the spirit of the body of Christ, none
are 'better' than another.  Certainly none are the lone culmination
of all truth; and so long as any of these individuals think that
their particular piece of the puzzle makes up the entire puzzle, they
will not be able to be fully blessed in their callings, but will
hinder their own work to which they are called by turning away people
who might otherwise give them credence.  They see you and your
weaknesses, and the holes in your paradigm and the lack in your
words, and they turn off your entire ministry.  You alone do not
measure up to the grandeur of the prophecies of the one like unto
Moses to come in the latter days.

Take your calling, for example.  You certainly are talented and have
received wonderful insights and have had magnificent experiences.
But you don't have all truth.  I hope sincerely that you do not think
otherwise.  I would gauge by our interaction thus far that you do not
think this.

It is only in the synthesis of all these 144,000 working as one that
a 'fullness' is achieved.  Until then, we only have individual pieces
fitting together one at a time, here a little, there a little.  It is
when we are thus combined that the prophecy of Moses is fulfilled,
for the latter-day ministry is not about leaning on one man standing
in the stead of God, but by finding the gifts latent in each of us,
hearing God for ourselves, and drawing upon that gift of God in union
with others, to bring about a wholeness.  This is the ONE SHEPHERD
that will be over us in the millennium of peace.  It is the truth
found in each of our hearts working in harmony with others.  Yes, God
him(&her)self will be in our midst, but so will the understanding
that in each of us is a calling to full godhood, and that the
conscience rooted in each, from which our decisions are made, is
ultimately the arbiter of our fate and perfection, in concert with
others who likewise are seeking this fullness.

We don't have to speak in scriptureesque speech for our words to be
the word of God.  We don't have to say, "thus saith the Lord" for our
words to have a divine stamp of approval.  You don't have to claim
that a person must hearken to the words brought forth by you
specifically in order to make it into the circle of God's elect and
not be cut off from among them.  In fact, to do so would not be
entirely true, for you are but a piece of the whole.

I know I alone certainly do not fit the grandeur of the description
of this latter-day David or Moses or Messiah.  Yet I know that I have
been called and prepared and have done many things already that are
included as a partial fulfillment of this prophecy, notwistanding my
weaknesses and mistakes.  But my work, like any other, is not meant
to stand by itself, but is to be supplemented by the other 144,000
who are likewise called and prepared and have done many things toward
the fulfillment of this prophecy.

When we join together as a team, then will our weaknesses be overcome
by virtue of the strengths of others.  So long as we remain divided,
insisting upon the exclusivity of our individual paradigms, then our
weaknesses impair the work we are called to do -- together.

144,000 is a lot of extremely neat people!  Furthermore, according to
my understanding, 144,000 it is not a precise number as much as it is
a description of an order or a quorum.  The actual number might be
more or less than this.  Still, I would not be surprised or
disappointed if it was exactly that number when completed on this
earth.  Ironically, it is a little more than a tenth of a tenth of
the number of members of the LDS church, according to the statistics
being given today.

As long as those who are called after this order do not recognize or
acknowledge that their work is but a part of a whole, but think
instead that their work is the epitome and complete fulfillment of
that role of one mighty and strong, then they will wane in
frustration, desperation, and deception; yet still spurred on by the
glory of the piece they are given, for each role is in itself
glorious as a beam or ray from the throne of God.  But if we can
realize that there are many of us out here, and that we are meant to
work together, then I believe we will begin to fulfill this prophecy
in power, for the blessing of all mankind, and to the damnation of
those who refuse to hearken -- 'damnation' not being a word meant to
cut them off forever, but to indicate their lack of progression at
this time because they refuse to receive the blessings of greater
things that God is extending to them.  Some people are just not far
enough advanced in their spiritual journey to be able to handle the
rigors of hearkening.  But some day, perhaps on some galaxy far, far
away, in a time that seems eternally distant, they will finally
hearken, and they themselves will become one with the one mighty and
strong -- which is God.

What a glorious time it is in which we live.  May we each be faithful
to our individual missions in life, and may we seek to work in
harmony one with another, that we might achieve together that which
we are destined -- to be One, Mighty and Strong, in extending mercy
even to the undeserving, exacting justice where necessary, being
filled with love, lifting the hands which hang down, bringing down
the prideful to repentance, causing the blind to see, the deaf to
hear, the dead to be raised, and coming to a knowledge of all things -
- together, as a united team, as ONE.

Sincerely, your co-laborer in the Lord's vineyard,

Sterling D. Allan
www.greaterthing.com
www.patriotsaints.com

FIVE ITEMS BELOW:
(1) new site: http://www.patriotsaints.com/TripleCouples/
(2) history of triple-couples idea
(3) a topic of David's Outcasts retreat Aug. 14-19
(4) new 'triplecouples' board
(5) new 'triplecouples' email discussion group


(ITEM ONE) new site
http://www.patriotsaints.com/TripleCouples/


(ITEM TWO)
I've been asked where this concept of triple-couples came from.

Briefly, we all have heard of Moses' model of societal structure with
captains of ten, captains of 50, etc...., to help disburse the
administration of the affairs of the people.  This is basically an outgrowth
of that.

As I became involved in the freedom movement, I came across several
writings, especially by Cleon Skousen and Hyrum Andrus, in which they
proposed from the writings of great men and women ancient and modern that
this form of societal organization (or something close to it) will be
restored in the coming millennium of peace, and even to a certain extent in
the tribulations prior to that time.

The next milestone in my thinking came through JJ Dewey's presentation of
the "molecular
relationship" model.  An index of this series is featured at:
http://www.greaterthings.com/JJDewey/Molecular/
See especially installments three and four, where were what captured my
interest.  It is the idea that nature provides us with a compelling example
as we consider the progression from protons-electrons joined to form atoms,
and atoms joined to form molecules, molecules joined to form cells, etc....
In other words, it is in the union of lower forms that higher forms come
into existence.

J.J. then postulates that the same should be true of human beings -- that it
will be through the harmonious union of many human beings that the next
level of advancement will be achieved.  Hence, the next step for humans is
to join together and create something larger than ourselves.  In his model,
he proposes four sets of three couples forming the basic "cell structure."

Starting about a year ago, my mother-in-law, Susan Carter, began holding
classes on Sunday afternoon to discuss this topic.  It so happens that some
of us in the class ended up working together in a business relationship
creating the Temple Hill Resort project.  www.templehillresort.com  Through
that work experience we have been able to begin implementing some of the
ideas that we had been talking about.

The idea of joining the triple-couple into a covenant relationship, complete
with vows and a ceremony, came to me the day after Independence day.  It is
a synthesis of a lot of great thinkers down through the ages; and it is
still in the cognative-creative phase; still being brainstormed.

Do any of you know of any cases where something like this has been
implemented?

The idea fascinates me, and I anxiously look forward to the continued
dialogue that is sure to ensue as we explore various facets and even begin
experimenting or implementing the concept.

We've created an index page to serve as home base for the brainstorming and
implementing of this idea, which is certainly not mine alone.
PatriotSaints.com will serve as its host for now.

http://www.patriotsaints.com/TripleCouples/

www.triplecouples.com will point there.


(ITEM THREE)

I'm strongly inclined to have the idea of triple-couples be the main topic
for the David's Outcasts retreat coming up Aug. 14-19, 2001 at Temple Hill
Resort
http://www.greaterthings.com/Zion/Camp/Davids_Outcasts/
We might even try some role-playing as part of the retreat.

This would serve as a great launching point for the idea, pulling all that
feedback from the wonderful people that will be there, and perhaps even
beginning the 'courtship' of several eventual triple-couple covenant unions.


(ITEM FOUR)

We've created a forum page just for the triple-couple topic.
http://pub29.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2465130596&cpv=1


(ITEM FIVE)

We've created an e-mail discussion group for those who are serious about
exploring the ramifications of entering into such a relationship.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/triplecouples

To join, send a message to
triplecouples-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

These forums will be accessible from the main page
http://www.patriotsaints.com/TripleCouples/

'Hope to see you there! (either in person at the retreat or virtually via
the above forums)

Sincerely,

Sterling D. Allan
www.patriotsaints.com
www.greaterthings.com

With MyComputer.com now charging for their discussion board service, I've
moved GreaterThings.com's discussion board to:
http://pub28.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2391676848

I thought some of you might want to post a comment to prime the pump.  There
are so many interesting things to discuss, threads of ideas to explore.

Tell us how much you enjoy the website (or don't enjoy).  Start a discussion
thread on your pet topic.  Tell us about your website.  Tell us your story
of what's happened in the past five years and what you've learned from it.
Share your most recent discovery.  Tell us the most significant thing you
have learned in life so far.  Tell us when the U.S. is going to crash and
the beast come fully into power.  Tell us what you think about the recent
idea of forming triple-couple covenant relationships.  Show us a picture of
your family.  Have fun!

Sincerely.

Sterling