Actually in Zion you can join the Express Permit Program, or some such thing, on
a yearly basis which allows you to print your own permit for certain resources
up to I believe three days in advance, eliminating the need to go to the VC. 
This is only some resources, though, and many others still need to be obtained
in person.

Something that was tossed around on the Canyons yahoo group some time ago
involved guides in Zion.  As has been mentioned here they are not allowed. 
However, some people (including myself) support allowing some guide outfits to
operate within the park, but they should not be allowed to compete with the
general public for resource allotment.  One way to avoid this is to only allow
the general public to acquire permits, and so long as there is room on the
permit, they can hire a guide from the list of outfitters that are allowed to
operate in the park.  This keeps the guides within the user days, prevents them
from locking up permits, and allows the public to have a choice on whether or
not to use a guide and which guide to go with.  I believe this to be a viable
alternative both for Zion and the GC.

Any thoughts?

Dean

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rich_rudow
   To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 2:45 PM
   Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Alternate perspective on permit concerns



   Zion does require you to pick up the permit in person but the permit desk is
open from 7am to 8pm in season which helps. I believe they want you to pick the
permits up in person for two reasons:

   1 - they can assess if you're technically capable of descending some of the
difficult slots.

   2 - they can't predict the weather in advance. If flash flood risk is high the
day of your hike they can withhold the permit for safety.

   I've only acquired permits to descend slot canyons in Zion. They also have
backpacking permits and I don't know if you have to get them in person or not.

   Rich


   > Also, remember when you had to pick up your permit from the BIC the day of
the hike? Rich, is that what Zion still requires? It was not that convenient
except that it probably did provide for more same day permits when there were
no-shows.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I put a photo of the climb from the river into Grapevine in the Miscellaneous
folder at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Grand_Canyon_Hikers/photos/album/1468575403/pic/13\
67240712/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc

http://tinyurl.com/ybhfcaa

This is only half the climb since there is a more complicated route to get back
down into Grapevine.

The route is foreshortened in the photo due to the angle. It's taller and less
vertical in reality. Basically, you just climb straight up climbing over next to
the pinnacle on the center right.

      -Todd

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> Photos/info I saw on this Grapevine buttress climb they were climbing
> directly from boats anchored to the wall for access -- returning
> overnight to the boats and then going up and climbing more the next
> day.  Seems like a strange business from the perspective of a hiker.

I'm surprised that log book goes back so far.  I would have thought with the
number of visitors that spot receives that the book would fill up in a few
years.

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Chris F" <crforsyth@...> wrote:
>
> Last week I had the opportunity to visit Clear Creek area for a few days.  At
the well-known ruin I photographed some of the pages out of the visitor
register.  A number of names were in there that are familiar to regular readers
of this yahoo group.
>
> Photos can be seen at:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/CRForsyth/ClearCreekRuinVisitorRegister
>
> Have fun!
>
> Chris
>

My daughter and I are camping at Bright Angel Campground for New
Years Eve and the night before and after.

We were hoping to decend South Kaibab on 12/30 and out on Bright Angel on 1/2.

Any recent reports on the maintanence on the South Kaibab? I know they
restricted mules but is it a mess or will the maint pause during winter months.

Thanks.

Last week I had the opportunity to visit Clear Creek area for a few days.  At
the well-known ruin I photographed some of the pages out of the visitor
register.  A number of names were in there that are familiar to regular readers
of this yahoo group.

Photos can be seen at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/CRForsyth/ClearCreekRuinVisitorRegister

Have fun!

Chris

Thanks for the info on the Salt Wash narrows Rich.  I had just hoped we could
get close to the pool area from below.
The Jackass pouroff now has 2 bolts connected by a chain.  Then there's a
locking carabiner in the center of the chain. I'm not sure how the bolts were
held in place since I didn't look that close.

Point taken John - thanks for the correction.  I felt like I was walking
"downstream" the whole trip and made this mistake more than once.

Dadphx, I basically agree with you.  I, too, don't have an issue with local
hikers getting "first dibs" by standing in line in person.

My feeling, though, is that there should be a requirement that only the trip
leader can get a permit in person and in-person permits shouldn't be
transferable. I'm ok with guides getting permits as long as they stand in line
for the hikes they'll be leading.



--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "dadphx" <daviddube@...> wrote:
>
> At the risk of getting flamed, I have an alternative view of the "locals
getting permits the first of the month" issue.  There are a lot of locals that
do A LOT of hiking in the canyon.  Many of them share their stories here on this
group.  Most of them are willing to provide REALLY HELPFUL information, advice,
cautions, and other data that would be difficult for many of us to get.  I
honestly don't know how many of the choice permits are obtained by the locals
lining up on the first of November for March permits (for instance), but you
know, I rely on the really experienced (or at least frequent) backpackers for
their knowledge.
>
> I speak as someone with over 130 nights below the rim with from two to five
trips a year, but who gets my permits by faxing in the request like most
everyone else.  Surely some reform is badly needed, but I don't want to jump on
the locals just because of envy at their fortunate to live where most of us find
such joy.
> --zerodaze--
>

We were packing pretty light so the extra water wasn't a big deal. No tents,
plus we had dinner and breakfast reserved at Phantom Ranch for the last night,
so we weren't carrying much food at that point. Tonto's level and easy-going.

I think we carried an extra 48 oz per person which was enough for dinner,
morning coffee and the short hike to IG the next morning. If it had been hotter,
we would have carried more.


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> In my view Salt/Horn is a more reasonable target from Granite Rapid
> than Indian Garden which is a bit far unless you are really fast. But
> if you pick IG then you don't need to carry overnight water for Salt
> or Horn which may improve your speed.
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 13:42, sumiwada wrote:
>
> > Itinerary we did last month, a hybrid of the Hermit loop where we
> > opted to go down to Phantom Ranch on the last night instead of
> > Indian Garden:
> >
> > 1. Hermit rest to Hermit creek
> > 2. Granite rapid
> > 3. Horn creek
> > 4. Bright Angel campground
> > 5. Hike out
> >
> > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "revansringo"
> > <revansringo@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I was going to put in for a permit next month and wanted some
> >> suggestion of a good 5 day trip in to the canyon I wanted to do
> >> Indian garden campsite and thought I go down the Hermit trail other
> >> than that I am pretty open , so any suggestions
>

Zion does require you to pick up the permit in person but the permit desk is
open from 7am to 8pm in season which helps.  I believe they want you to pick the
permits up in person for two reasons:

1 - they can assess if you're technically capable of descending some of the
difficult slots.

2 - they can't predict the weather in advance.  If flash flood risk is high the
day of your hike they can withhold the permit for safety.

I've only acquired permits to descend slot canyons in Zion.  They also have
backpacking permits and I don't know if you have to get them in person or not.

Rich


> Also, remember when you had to pick up your permit from the BIC the day of the
hike?  Rich, is that what Zion still requires?  It was not that convenient
except that it probably did provide for more same day permits when there were
no-shows.

Hi Pat, yes, I describe a route out Little Nankoweap to the rim I did as a
"DAY HIKE" (not shouting here, just want to emphasize this point) from the
river in Day Hikes from the River (Vishnu Temple Press, 3rd edition 2007).
There is a map with the route I took in the book. The route at the top in
the Kaibab is most likely not the route I would take if hiking with a full
pack. Doug Nearing makes a good point about that. What I can do as a day
hiker and the routes I hike as a day hiker are substantially different from
what I can do and the routes I take as a backpacker. All the best on your
journey, yours, Tom

Tom Martin
PO Box 30821
Flagstaff, AZ 86003-0821
928-556-0742, 928-856-9065 cell
tommartin@...  tomhazel@...


-----Original Message-----
From: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cj_ac
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 10:40 PM
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Little Nankoweap Route

Does anyone have a map on the little Nankoweap route out from the river? Do
you pick up the saddle mt trail at the boudary?
Thanks
-Pat



------------------------------------

The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent
those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with anything on the
internet, the information presented must be viewed with a critical eye. Some
of it may be questionable, and some is downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> In my view Salt/Horn is a more reasonable target from Granite Rapid
> than Indian Garden which is a bit far unless you are really fast. But
> if you pick IG then you don't need to carry overnight water for Salt
> or Horn which may improve your speed.

You don't need to carry overnight water from Granite Rapids to Horn Creek,
either. After dropping most of your gear at Horn, make the short trek to Indian
Garden with water containers for a fill up. It's only 2.5 miles from Horn to IG.
If a person's packing light just to make the water run, it's about a 2 1/2 hour
round trip.

Bill Ferris
Flagstaff
http://www.gcadventure.com

>  We had lunch at Red Canyon and talked with a couple heading to Hance.  After
that we headed downstream to 75 Mile Canyon and Nevill's Rapid to camp.  We had
to go up and over the wall bypass upstream of Papago Creek Canyon....  We went
all the way to 75 Mile Canyon Confluence to realize it was just a large rock fan
area w/o a beach.  We backtracked upstream ¼ mile and found a good beach to
camp.
>
> TUESDAY we woke early again and headed towards Tanner.  Again it was obvious
we had to take the bypass around the wall downstream of 75 Mi. Canyon ...

Sounds like a great trip.   I am particularly surprised that you did not run
into any
route-finding difficulties, given that you appear to have been under a major
misapprehension about the direction-of-flow of the Colorado River.

:) :) :) :)

John

Doug and Richard -
Thank you both for your reply.  You are two of the best examples of highly
experienced backpackers that I (and, no doubt, many others on this GC hikers
group) have relied on over the years.  Thank you!

My concern is primarily for the non-commercial individuals (aka "locals") trying
to get permits on the first of the month, and my preference to not change a
system that allows for that.  Commercial guides are a different story.  Perhaps
a system that partitions a small number of the corridor sites for the guides and
allow them to enter a lottery for those limited permits among themselves would
still retain more availability for both locals and non-local, non-commercial
trips?  Just a thought.

Also, remember when you had to pick up your permit from the BIC the day of the
hike?  Rich, is that what Zion still requires?  It was not that convenient
except that it probably did provide for more same day permits when there were
no-shows.

I know this issue has been frequently posted over the past few months, but my
concern for those individuals that hike extensively (and my admittedly self
serving interest in supporting them) has been evolving.  Also, in the interest
of full disclosure, I did live in Flagstaff for ten years, but now am in Phoenix
for the past decade.  This is close enough to plan for several trips a year
while using the fax permit system.  I generally hike outside of the corridor as
well, but since I no longer care to (can?) hike out from Clear Creek to the S.
Rim in one day (as an example), sometimes I find myself in BAC or even IG. 
Rich's tips to get permits are very useful and I can endorse them as well.
--zerodaze

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:
>
> Doug, here's an interesting contrast.  In Zion NP you can get permit
"reservations" online and then pick the permit up in the park.  The online
system tells you what's available and allows you to make instant itinerary trade
offs.  It's quite convenient and far better than the GCNP system.  However, in
Zion commercial guides are strictly prohibited while they are allowed in GCNP. 
Strange set of inconsistencies.  I'm told (by a ranger) that GCNP cannot launch
their online system because the Gov imposed very strict security policies after
Zion's online system was launched.  Zion was able to keep their system but other
parks have been shutout.  It's beyond me why the Gov can't create a system with
appropriate security ... BTW.  Every non Gov organization seems to be able to do
so.  I suspect that the cost to meet the Gov's security requirements far exceed
the budget the NPS has for the job :(
>
> With regard to locals, I agree with you.  I never have problems "getting"
permits and I rarely plan far in advance.  But we don't frequent the corridor
very often either and we're flexible.  Any hike in Grand Canyon beats a day in
the office ... right?  In my view, the biggest challenge with the current GCNP
system is the fax process.  You define an itinerary and fax it in, wait a few
weeks, get rejected, fax a new itinerary, wait a few weeks, rinse and repeat. 
By the time this process plays out your vacation has come and gone (this is only
a slight exaggeration).
>
> For the benefit of the larger group since Doug and other frequent hikers
already know the tricks of the permit process, here are a few hints.  BTW - If
the group abuses these tips I suspect these convenient doors could be closed by
"policy" and all of the locals will be pissed at me (and you).  I'll define what
constitutes "abuse" shortly IMHO.
>
> 1) Why hike the corridor?  There are a lot of great places in the park  to
hike that have reasonable trail access, and frankly, a far better wilderness
experience.  Try Marble Canyon in the Winter with many really nice hikes.  Or
try Western GC.  We were the ONLY permitted hikers West of Kanab Canyon the week
before last!  You all don't know what you're missing :)  (BTW - I know this
because we bumped into a ranger who busted a few folks poaching 150 Mile Canyon
- yep ... they really do patrol way out there.)  There are many people on this
group that can provide suggestions and recommendations for non-corridor hiking
based on your experience level and desired for adventure, or lack thereof.
>
> 2) If the fax process fails to yield a trip on the first try (and you really
should fill out all three itinerary options too) then stop banging your head
against that wall.  Call the back country office and ask the ranger about tweaks
to your itinerary that would work.  You'll  often find that you can do those
"trades offs" on the phone very quickly and the rangers in the BIC are always
ready to help.  THEN fax your itinerary in right away!  This almost always works
for me (when I plan ahead that is).
>
> 3) Must you really plan ahead?  No.  If you're headed for the North Rim you
can get permits at Pipe Spring, Lee's Ferry, Tuweep, or the North Rim village
area.  If you fly into Phoenix you can get permits at the South Rim BIC or at
the Navajo Parks office in Cameron (for Navajo res access to Marble Canyon). 
You can inquire about available permit options at these places, do your trade
offs, and always walk away with a permit for a fine trip.  BTW - you'll be
surprised at how many corridor area hikes can be built at the last minute. 
People often cancel leaving fine options.  Also, don't forget to look for dorm
or cabin cancellations at Phantom Ranch too.  I never booked a dorm or cabin in
advance and yet have stayed in them probably 10 times as part of a hike avoiding
the need for a back country permit that night.
>
> 4) Pay the extra $25 annual fee to become a "frequent hiker".  If your trip
changes you get credit for the changes.  If two people drop out you can call the
BIC and they will send you an updated permit and credit your account for future
use.  I've even, on occasion, been faxed the updated permit when I was close to
the trip time to avoid mailing delays.  As a "frequent hiker" they assume you
know the rules and are less hesitant about faxing your permit (side 2 with the
rules does not get faxed obviously).  If you do only two trips per year in Grand
Canyon this pays for itself.  This is also handy if you change your itinerary. 
Call the BIC, add that extra day (or whatever) and they can mail or fax you the
change.  They already have your credit card and they use the same permit number
as previously issued.  It makes it easy for everyone.  I know it seems strange
to fly into town without a permit, but there's no risk if you're flexible and
have a few ideas on hikes you would like to do, corridor area excepting.
>
> Ok, so what's "abuse" IMHO?  The rangers that can issue permits are really
busy and they have to deal with a lot of inexperienced folks from the general
public.  I've been at the BIC window and have heard questions like this:
>
> where can I hike in Grand Canyon?
> how do I get there from Vegas?
> yes ... it gets way worst!
>
> The least we can do is use their time judiciously.  Know the use areas for all
of your hike options in advance (no ... the rangers don't always have this stuff
memorized).  Have a few itinerary ideas ready to talk about so they can quickly
check availability in the computer.  This becomes very important at Tuweep, Pipe
Spring, or Lee's Ferry - those folks do not have access to the online system so
they need to call the BIC.  Now you have two ranger's working on your trip. 
Finally, as nice as the rangers are, they don't have time to hear about your
last trip to Phantom Ranch - ok ... keep it really brief.  They've probably
heard the story about the ringtail cat in the dorm room 100 times :)
>
> Other hikers on the group might have additional thoughts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@> wrote:
> >
> > I appreciate richard supporting the proposed policy change. For
> > dadphx, I agree it's a complex issue and I always respect different
> > views -- especially when the view is a thoughtful perspective
> > factually accurate. An important factor in deciding how to balance an
> > issue like this, one of the most important is that commercial
> > interests should not control public access when public non-commercial
> > demand competes with commercial demand. Public self-guided hiking
> > vastly exceeds commercial demand at GC. This GC Hikers group sharing
> > information is an important aspect of non-commercial access. It's true
> > that it can be difficult to gain a deep knowledge of GC hiking without
> > doing alot of it.
> >
> > As a fairly adventurous GC hiker who is semi-local, I rarely have
> > trouble getting a permit for the places I want to go by fax or at the
> > GC window late in the monthly cycle. But it's the basic newbie hikers
> > who are trying to get a permit for IG, BAC, CC are getting locked out
> > by the guides at the window. I'm confident this policy change will
> > occur after careful consideration by NPS of all views on this.
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2009, at 07:30, richard2425848 wrote:
> >
> > > AS I understand it, it is not just locals, but commercial folks who
> > > take advantage of the system to the detriment of those of us who
> > > live out of state.  I would just like a system that treats everyone
> > > equally.
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "dadphx" <daviddube@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> At the risk of getting flamed, I have an alternative view of the
> > >> "locals getting permits the first of the month" issue.  There are a
> > >> lot of locals that do A LOT of hiking in the canyon.  Many of them
> > >> share their stories here on this group.  Most of them are willing
> > >> to provide REALLY HELPFUL information, advice, cautions, and other
> > >> data that would be difficult for many of us to get.  I honestly
> > >> don't know how many of the choice permits are obtained by the
> > >> locals lining up on the first of November for March permits (for
> > >> instance), but you know, I rely on the really experienced (or at
> > >> least frequent) backpackers for their knowledge.
> > >>
> > >> I speak as someone with over 130 nights below the rim with from two
> > >> to five trips a year, but who gets my permits by faxing in the
> > >> request like most everyone else.  Surely some reform is badly
> > >> needed, but I don't want to jump on the locals just because of envy
> > >> at their fortunate to live where most of us find such joy.
> > >> --zerodaze--
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily
> > > represent those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with
> > > anything on the internet, the information presented must be viewed
> > > with a critical eye. Some of it may be questionable, and some is
> > > downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Charlie, it sounds like a great hike.  Thanks for posting up the trip report.

Todd Martin and I scouted the Redwall narrows of Salt Trail Canyon.  It might be
one of the more dangerous slots in all of Grand Canyon (or the Navajo Nation). 
The pool you're referencing is a giant hanging keeper pothole.  We climbed down
to the ledge 50' above the pool.  It's a rappel into the pool, then a 40' swim
across the pool to an 8' near vertical lip of polished Redwall.  Needless to
say, if you got in you wouldn't be able to get out without some pretty
specialized pothole escape gear (and a thick wetsuit).  The other side of the
pothole lip is a 60' rappel.  There are two more raps just downstream from the
keeper too.  Anyway, it's definitely not accessible from the bottom.  Who knows,
after the next flash flood you might just swim across the pool, but right now
it's a classic death trap.

Was the glue in bolt still at the drop in Jackass or was it blown out by a
flood?  I usually don't trust the rope there anyway.  My brother-in-law and I
saw Jackass flash once and that rope was getting blasted.  I made a mental note
to bring my own next time!

Regards,

Rich

"Later that day we tried to get up into the Redwall narrows of the Salt Wash
(Benkihatso) canyon to try to get to the large water tank you can see from the
trail above.  The boulder field below was more than we wanted in the late
afternoon but maybe some day we'll try it with more time.  I'd be interested to
hear from anyone who has made it up into the Redwall narrows in this drainage."
>
> SUNDAY we hiked down Jackass Canyon to find the fixed rope was gone at the
pouroff and we forgot to bring our own. We probably could have climbed down
anyway (I have before w/o rope) but the pool at the bottom was as large as ever
and may have caused slick foot problems in climbing out – so we didn't.  Still
it was a nice hike to work the legs out w/o a pack.  Then back to Salt Lake, St.
George and Ogden.

I'd like to suggest another day hike from Hermit's camp.  I've never seen anyone
else write about it but hiking UP Hermit Creek is very pretty.  We got up quite
a ways before the brush became more than we wanted to handle.  We still had
plenty of time in the PM to hike down to the rapids.

Norm Kern




________________________________
From: Bill Ferris <BillFerris@...>
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 3:02:42 PM
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Planning


Here's one of many options...

Day 1: Hermit's Rest to Hermit Creek
Day 2: 2nd night at Hermit Creek w/ day hike to Hermit Rapids
Day 3: Hermit Creek to Granite Rapids
Day 4: Granite Rapids to Indian Garden
Day 5: Out

Alternates in case your first choice of camp sites are not available:

Hermit Rapids for Hermit Creek
Monument for Granite Rapids
Horn Creek or Bright Angel Campground for Indian Garden

If two nights at Hermit Creek/Hermit Rapids aren't available, you could do two
nights at Granite Rapids/Monument with a day hike up Monument.

Good luck,

Bill Ferris
Flagstaff
http://www.gcadventure.com

--- In Grand_Canyon_ Hikers@yahoogrou ps.com, "revansringo" <revansringo@ ...>
wrote:
>
> I was going to put in for a permit next month and wanted some suggestion of a
good 5 day trip in to the canyon I wanted to do Indian garden campsite and
thought I go down the Hermit trail other than that I am pretty open , so any
suggestions
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Congratulations on your survival.  I've been in that neighborhood.  The brush is
overwhelming.  Backtracking that much of a trip is always a concern.  I've
always hoped we would be as wise as you were to do the backtracking rather than
take some big risk in order to get out on time.

You might enjoy or report at
http://7days6nights.blogspot.com/2008/07/grand-canyon-north-bass-trail-and.html

We got lost.  We ran out of water.  We were cut to shreds by the brush...

Norm Kern




________________________________
From: nealocallaghan <nealoc@...>
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:00:39 PM
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Trip Report:  N Bass -- Shinumo Amphitheater --
Modred Abyss  11/01-09


N Bass -- Shinumo Amphitheater -- Modred Abyss:  A Successful Failure

Author's note:  I had planned to do this trip with two others as a 7-day loop
trip. Unfortunately, they both had to cancel shortly before the start date. I
elected go ahead solo.

After a 9.5 hour car trip, I found the North Bass trail access road  and camped
overnight at the site just inside the park boundary where the Swamp Point and
Point Sublime roads converge.  Next morning, I walked the 8 miles along the
access road to the N Bass trailhead. It was in better shape then I would have
thought, though a high clearance vehicle would be a good idea.  As I was
walking, I made an animal sighting of something I never would have expected to
see:  a buffalo!  I was about 150 feet from it when it saw me and ran off.  I
found many buffalo tracks and scat all along the road there.  I'd never heard of
buffalo in Grand Canyon NP before. I continued to the trailhead and started down
by 12:30. The upper trail was steep but not as scary as Nankoweap is in places. 
As the trail got into White creek drainage it got very brushy in places - dense
brush over your head. By 4:00, I was at the place in the trail where it climbs
out of the creek
  drainage to avoid a large pour-off to start the route to the redwall descent.
Found a good camp spot for the night.

Luckily for me the weather during the entire trip was as good as I could hope
for:  clear skies, 60s - 80s during the day, 40s - 60s at night and virtually no
wind.  The trade off was shorter daylight hours.

Next morning I continued on. Met three guys who were hiking out.  The redwall
descent was steep and loose, about 500 feet elevation change, but not really a
problem going down.  Continued on in the creek bed.  The trail meanders back and
forth from one side to the other or right down the middle. There's a lot of
boulder hopping and brush on the edges which can hinder route finding and the
trail is not cairned well in places. The water in White creek flows only
intermittently, so you always have to keep a good amount in your pack. By early
afternoon I was at the place where the trail forks at the Tapeats narrows. I
elected to take the bypass which was very easy to follow and walk on and I made
good time.  Made it to the overlook of Shinumo creek and a few minutes later to
the campsight by about 4:00.  Darkness this time of year is at about 5:30.
Overnight, a mouse gnawed a hole in my tent.

I decided the next morning to day-hike to the end of the trail at the river. 
However, I took all of my gear as I didn't want to experience any more mice
attacks. Shinumo is a big and fast flowing creek and immediately I found that
I'd have to cross it at least several times.  I was able to find places where I
could cross without getting water over the boot tops.  Made it to the river. No
raft parties in site. Bass rapids were impressive.  The temperature must have
been in the lower 80s.  Found Bass's original camp on the way back which I had
missed on the way down. Got back to the campsite and moved on up creek  about
1/4 mile to the confluence of White and Shinumo creeks and found another small
and pleasant camp site there.

Next morning, I headed up the narrows of White creek and found the unnamed
drainage that was supposed to "go" to get up to the Tonto level.  It was a tough
climb up.  No marked route.  I took one sub-drainage where I had to hike much
higher then I wanted but finally got out of the drainage. Had to descend about
150 feet to get down to the more level Tonto level.  After that it was
continuous hiking around the Holy Grail headland and on the Tonto on the other
side.  That(east) side was much more difficult with a steeper slope and many
more drainage gullies which were difficult to cross.  There is a route of sorts
on the Tonto -- the "Burro route" -- but it is only a faint trail at best and
comes and goes.  You tend to lose it completely at the drainages where there is
more rock fall.  By later afternoon, I found myself running out of both daylight
and water (despite carrying about 4+ liters) and still on the Tonto.  There was
no level place to put up a
  tent.  I ended up bivouacing with the ground cloth on the levelest place I
could find and without water.  Next morning I continued on for about one hour
and found the confluence of Merlin and Modred. I was able to descend to creek
level as the Tonto cliffs give way to slopes in that area.

After a brief breakfast, I decided to head on up Modred.  Almost instantly
conditions got worse.  The brush was overwhelming.  It is a combination of
acacia, manzanita, willow, tamarisk/salt cedar -- most of these well over head
level. They are almost imperious to penetration and if you tried to get around
them, there are bayonet agave, prickly pear, and cholla cacti waiting like
landmines for you to blunder into them. I quickly found my arms getting ripped
to shreds trying to fend off branches and stickers.  The going was so slow that
by mid-afternoon, I was only a little more then halfway there and knew I
couldn't make it before dark to my planned camp site at the fault ravine if I
didn't change my plan. I decided to hike directly in the creek. It was fast and
ankle-to-upper- thigh deep. I felt like Humphrey Bogart in the "African Queen"
where he's pulling the boat on the river.  At least there were no leeches in
this creek! As soon as I started
  walking in the creek I was making much better progress.  I finally made it to
the camp site by 4:00.  Thankfully, it was free of brush.

Next morning I started up the fault ravine toward Elaine Castle saddle.  It was
initially very brushy too with a small trickle of water in the bed.  As I got
higher, the brush became somewhat less dense but still problematic.  I
encountered increasingly higher pour-offs.  On one of these, I found myself
having to climb very high out of the bed -- 50-75 feet on very loose rocks and
blocking brush.  Some of the footing gave way and went crashing into the ravine
with a huge dust cloud.  At that point, I got nervous about the climb. I went
higher and the climbing became even steeper. There were about 3 or 4 places
where I had to take off my pack and pass it ahead of me in order to get up to
the next level. Finally I could see Elaine Castle still a long way away.  I
estimate I was about half way up the ravine route when I decided not to go on. 
If I tried it and got stuck higher up I might not be able to get back or risked
falling with more serious
  consequences.  If I did make it to the saddle, I knew that the next day's climb
to Lancelot was even steeper then what this part was described to be. Perhaps if
I had been with one or two other people I might chance it, but not alone.

My only alternative was to hike out by the same route I had come in. I stayed at
the same camp site that night and checked my remaining food supply which was
very limited as I had brought only a little more than what I would need to go
out by Lancelot. By that route, I was only a 5-6 miles from the car.  But by the
way I had come, I was about 18-20 miles away.  Next morning, I started back down
Modred, this time taking to the creek immediately and hiking the whole way in
the creek. Got a little flummoxed near the end as I thought I should be there by
now and became afraid that I had somehow gotten into Shinumo without noticing
it. Finally figured out I was just a couple hundred yards from it and completed
the hike to the confluence. Got some water and got back up on the Tonto when it
got dark after an hour of hiking. I found a level spot in a gully drainage which
I chanced since it was clear skies. Continued on the next morning with only
dregs of food
  left. I made it around to the unnamed drainage that I had come up on, dreading
the climb down. While I was reconnoitering around the drainage, I suddenly heard
a voice a long way away.  I called out and got an answer back.  Off in the
distance on the edge of the drainage, I spotted two hikers!  We were able to
yell back and forth and I ended up hiking down to there level.  They are a nice
young couple who had happened to be in the Merlin-Modred area at the same time I
was, and were about an hour behind me and hiking out in the same direction. 
They were the first people I saw in almost a week.  I told them my food
situation and they immediately gave me some of theirs'.  We found a less-awful
route down to White creek. They were going to head down to the river, try to
hitch a ride across and go up and out by the South Bass trail. Before we split
up, they gave me enough food to be able hike out on for two more days. Bless
them!

I continued on up White creek in the narrows - the part I had bypassed on the
way down. It was pretty, but at this point, I was just thinking about making as
much time as possible to get far enough up trail to where I could make a shot at
getting out the following day.  By late afternoon, I reached a place where the
trail seemed to disappear despite my being on the creek. I spent about 1 1/2
hours looking for it without success.  It was getting dark so I found a place to
camp for the night, short of my desired goal for the day. I didn't sleep much
that night.  Looking closely at the map, I located where I thought I was and
noticed that the trail seemed to veer off away from the creek. Early the next
morning, I hiked back down the creek and found a bypass route marked by a cairn
I had missed the evening before.

I immediately started hiking up the bypass and was back on the trail. I hiked
very hard all that morning. I estimate I hiked about 6 miles in 5 1/2 hours and
climbed 3500 feet that last day. By 12:45, I made it up and out of the canyon. 
While this forced retreat was playing out over the preceding days, I had been in
touch by satellite phone with my brother-in-law, Steve, in Phoenix and also with
the park emergency services, notifying them of my food situation.  Steve was
very instrumental in talking with the park service since my satellite was only
intermittent -- 30 seconds to 1 or 2 minute connections at best. It was also
very reassuring to me to have him involved with his prior search and rescue and
survival training in the military. Since I thought I had a good chance of making
it out before I ran out of food, I didn't ask for assistance from the park. 
Steve, however, decided to drive up and meet me at the place I had left my
friend Jeff's car or
  on the 8-mile Swamp Point road as I continued to hike it out (he had loaned it
to me for the trip).  Finally, by about 3:30, we met on the access road about 1
mile from Jeff's car.  I had walked about 13 miles altogether that day. Its a
good thing Steve did come up because Jeff's car wouldn't start!  Steve gave me a
jump start and we drove together back to Flagstaff and stayed overnight there. 
Next morning I was on the road to Albuquerque.  I was overdue at work but had
called and let them know the situation. Everyone was very understanding.  I
spent the next couple of days at home resting and recuperating.

All in all, it was a tough hike. I estimate I hike a total of 55 miles. No major
injuries during the 9 days of hiking but my arms were a mass of blood-streaked
scratches. A branch had hit me in the eye and caused a conjunctival hemorrhage
which is harmless but freaked out everyone who saw it. My knee (8 months post
arthroscopic surgery for torn meniscus) held up remarkably well, not giving me
any problem whatsoever. I had about three minor falls which luckily resulted in
no injury. I think I lost about 5 pounds due to the limited food and hard hiking
in the last several days.

I would have to agree that of the GC trails I've hiked, N Bass is possibly the
hardest.  However, the off-trail part of this hike was much harder then Bass,
particularly the lovely little section of Modred Abyss hell which I will have
nightmares about for years.

I learned some valuable but hard-bought lessons from this trip.  First, be
flexible about trip plans if conditions change. I should have modified my trip
to do only the N Bass part and leave the Shinumo - Modred part out.  I should
have planned for the contingency of having to turn back near the end of the
hike, and carried more food. Third, know your own abilities.  I had a
less-then-clear idea of what the climb out would involve from other trip
reports. It was definitely more then I bargained for in a solo situation.

All in all, I guess I would have to call this trip a "successful failure." I
didn't finish the hike as planned but I did hike out on my own two feet,
somewhat bloodied but unbowed.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Doug, here's an interesting contrast.  In Zion NP you can get permit
"reservations" online and then pick the permit up in the park.  The online
system tells you what's available and allows you to make instant itinerary trade
offs.  It's quite convenient and far better than the GCNP system.  However, in
Zion commercial guides are strictly prohibited while they are allowed in GCNP. 
Strange set of inconsistencies.  I'm told (by a ranger) that GCNP cannot launch
their online system because the Gov imposed very strict security policies after
Zion's online system was launched.  Zion was able to keep their system but other
parks have been shutout.  It's beyond me why the Gov can't create a system with
appropriate security ... BTW.  Every non Gov organization seems to be able to do
so.  I suspect that the cost to meet the Gov's security requirements far exceed
the budget the NPS has for the job :(

With regard to locals, I agree with you.  I never have problems "getting"
permits and I rarely plan far in advance.  But we don't frequent the corridor
very often either and we're flexible.  Any hike in Grand Canyon beats a day in
the office ... right?  In my view, the biggest challenge with the current GCNP
system is the fax process.  You define an itinerary and fax it in, wait a few
weeks, get rejected, fax a new itinerary, wait a few weeks, rinse and repeat. 
By the time this process plays out your vacation has come and gone (this is only
a slight exaggeration).

For the benefit of the larger group since Doug and other frequent hikers already
know the tricks of the permit process, here are a few hints.  BTW - If the group
abuses these tips I suspect these convenient doors could be closed by "policy"
and all of the locals will be pissed at me (and you).  I'll define what
constitutes "abuse" shortly IMHO.

1) Why hike the corridor?  There are a lot of great places in the park  to hike
that have reasonable trail access, and frankly, a far better wilderness
experience.  Try Marble Canyon in the Winter with many really nice hikes.  Or
try Western GC.  We were the ONLY permitted hikers West of Kanab Canyon the week
before last!  You all don't know what you're missing :)  (BTW - I know this
because we bumped into a ranger who busted a few folks poaching 150 Mile Canyon
- yep ... they really do patrol way out there.)  There are many people on this
group that can provide suggestions and recommendations for non-corridor hiking
based on your experience level and desired for adventure, or lack thereof.

2) If the fax process fails to yield a trip on the first try (and you really
should fill out all three itinerary options too) then stop banging your head
against that wall.  Call the back country office and ask the ranger about tweaks
to your itinerary that would work.  You'll  often find that you can do those
"trades offs" on the phone very quickly and the rangers in the BIC are always
ready to help.  THEN fax your itinerary in right away!  This almost always works
for me (when I plan ahead that is).

3) Must you really plan ahead?  No.  If you're headed for the North Rim you can
get permits at Pipe Spring, Lee's Ferry, Tuweep, or the North Rim village area. 
If you fly into Phoenix you can get permits at the South Rim BIC or at the
Navajo Parks office in Cameron (for Navajo res access to Marble Canyon).  You
can inquire about available permit options at these places, do your trade offs,
and always walk away with a permit for a fine trip.  BTW - you'll be surprised
at how many corridor area hikes can be built at the last minute.  People often
cancel leaving fine options.  Also, don't forget to look for dorm or cabin
cancellations at Phantom Ranch too.  I never booked a dorm or cabin in advance
and yet have stayed in them probably 10 times as part of a hike avoiding the
need for a back country permit that night.

4) Pay the extra $25 annual fee to become a "frequent hiker".  If your trip
changes you get credit for the changes.  If two people drop out you can call the
BIC and they will send you an updated permit and credit your account for future
use.  I've even, on occasion, been faxed the updated permit when I was close to
the trip time to avoid mailing delays.  As a "frequent hiker" they assume you
know the rules and are less hesitant about faxing your permit (side 2 with the
rules does not get faxed obviously).  If you do only two trips per year in Grand
Canyon this pays for itself.  This is also handy if you change your itinerary. 
Call the BIC, add that extra day (or whatever) and they can mail or fax you the
change.  They already have your credit card and they use the same permit number
as previously issued.  It makes it easy for everyone.  I know it seems strange
to fly into town without a permit, but there's no risk if you're flexible and
have a few ideas on hikes you would like to do, corridor area excepting.

Ok, so what's "abuse" IMHO?  The rangers that can issue permits are really busy
and they have to deal with a lot of inexperienced folks from the general public.
I've been at the BIC window and have heard questions like this:

where can I hike in Grand Canyon?
how do I get there from Vegas?
yes ... it gets way worst!

The least we can do is use their time judiciously.  Know the use areas for all
of your hike options in advance (no ... the rangers don't always have this stuff
memorized).  Have a few itinerary ideas ready to talk about so they can quickly
check availability in the computer.  This becomes very important at Tuweep, Pipe
Spring, or Lee's Ferry - those folks do not have access to the online system so
they need to call the BIC.  Now you have two ranger's working on your trip. 
Finally, as nice as the rangers are, they don't have time to hear about your
last trip to Phantom Ranch - ok ... keep it really brief.  They've probably
heard the story about the ringtail cat in the dorm room 100 times :)

Other hikers on the group might have additional thoughts.

Regards,

Rich



--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> I appreciate richard supporting the proposed policy change. For
> dadphx, I agree it's a complex issue and I always respect different
> views -- especially when the view is a thoughtful perspective
> factually accurate. An important factor in deciding how to balance an
> issue like this, one of the most important is that commercial
> interests should not control public access when public non-commercial
> demand competes with commercial demand. Public self-guided hiking
> vastly exceeds commercial demand at GC. This GC Hikers group sharing
> information is an important aspect of non-commercial access. It's true
> that it can be difficult to gain a deep knowledge of GC hiking without
> doing alot of it.
>
> As a fairly adventurous GC hiker who is semi-local, I rarely have
> trouble getting a permit for the places I want to go by fax or at the
> GC window late in the monthly cycle. But it's the basic newbie hikers
> who are trying to get a permit for IG, BAC, CC are getting locked out
> by the guides at the window. I'm confident this policy change will
> occur after careful consideration by NPS of all views on this.
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 07:30, richard2425848 wrote:
>
> > AS I understand it, it is not just locals, but commercial folks who
> > take advantage of the system to the detriment of those of us who
> > live out of state.  I would just like a system that treats everyone
> > equally.
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "dadphx" <daviddube@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> At the risk of getting flamed, I have an alternative view of the
> >> "locals getting permits the first of the month" issue.  There are a
> >> lot of locals that do A LOT of hiking in the canyon.  Many of them
> >> share their stories here on this group.  Most of them are willing
> >> to provide REALLY HELPFUL information, advice, cautions, and other
> >> data that would be difficult for many of us to get.  I honestly
> >> don't know how many of the choice permits are obtained by the
> >> locals lining up on the first of November for March permits (for
> >> instance), but you know, I rely on the really experienced (or at
> >> least frequent) backpackers for their knowledge.
> >>
> >> I speak as someone with over 130 nights below the rim with from two
> >> to five trips a year, but who gets my permits by faxing in the
> >> request like most everyone else.  Surely some reform is badly
> >> needed, but I don't want to jump on the locals just because of envy
> >> at their fortunate to live where most of us find such joy.
> >> --zerodaze--
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily
> > represent those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with
> > anything on the internet, the information presented must be viewed
> > with a critical eye. Some of it may be questionable, and some is
> > downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Oct 31 – Nov 7, 2009 Grand Canyon, Grandview to Hopi Salt Wash Backpack Trip
Report by Charlie Hart.

Five of us (3 from UT and 2 from Albuquerque) had a great 50 mile stroll through
the southeast bend of the Grand Canyon the 1st week of November.  The intent of
this report is to provide a summary of the trip since much of the route details
are well documented in other places. It was intended to be brief but stretched
out a bit – sorry.  I hope some info here may help others if they do some or all
of this trip in the future. To anyone who would like more details - please feel
free to contact me.

FRIDAY. Oct 31st was our drive day with all meeting up at the Navajo "Highway"
#6133 & US 89 Intersection.  From there we drove out to the Hopi Salt Wash
trailhead with only a few detours (as usual).  We left a shuttle car and another
car for the guys from ABQ to head home a day earlier than our planned departure.
We had expected it to get down to 24F that night so elected to stay at the
Cameron Trading Post instead of bringing a lot of rim camping equipment.  It
sure was nice when we were on the Salt Wash Rim but could see it would get cold
soon.  We headed to Cameron in the car we'd take to the S. Rim. We enjoyed very
nice accommodations and food at the Trading Post at a fair price (no we didn't
try the Navajo Tacos).  It was good to confirm the USGS water flow report that
no water was flowing down the Little Colorado.  Weather for the week looked
great so the chance for good drinking water in the Colorado (w/o LCR silt)
looked great.

SATURDAY was our 1st hiking day into the canyon. We drove to the S. Rim but had
to go to the General Store to pick up a bit more canister gas since I felt I had
miscalculated at the Salt Wash rim and we didn't bring enough. We still got back
to the Grandview Trailhead reasonably early in the morning and headed down w/o
any delays.  We stopped for a nice lunch on Horseshoe Mesa and then did a quick
hike out to the NW point of the mesa to get a view.  This was a nice trip (w/o
packs) and the view upstream was worth it.  However, once we started to head
down below the Redwall into Cottonwood Canyon we realized that another group was
now ahead of us and they scored the nice camp at the W. Fork Cottonwood
intersection under the cottonwood tree.  We still had a good camp up on a hill
to the east with very good views.  Very good water was flowing out of the W.
Fork of Cottonwood (2'wide x 2" deep) but was gone about 200 yards after it
joined the main drainage.  THANKS to Frank in this group and to the Backcountry
Office staff that did confirm water would be in this area.  (The more I read it
sounds like water is most always here or slightly up into the W. Fork.)

SUNDAY we enjoyed a late wakeup and headed around Horseshoe Mesa to Hance Creek.
The views upstream and downstream were as good as described.  Again, good water
was flowing down Hance where it intersected the Tonto Trail but we went down
into Hance to the nice camp at the 1st big cottonwood tree.  We explored down to
the Temple of Set and a bit further into the Granite to see the campsite at the
point where Harvey mentions that you can shortcut the Tonto Trail around Hance
by dropping into and out of side arms.  (I'll have to do this sometime and wish
I had know more about it this time.)

MONDAY we woke in the dark and were hiking by dusk towards Red Canyon.  Again,
the views along the Tonto and then dropping down to Red Canyon confluence were
just great.  We had lunch at Red Canyon and talked with a couple heading to
Hance.  After that we headed downstream to 75 Mile Canyon and Nevill's Rapid to
camp.  We had to go up and over the wall bypass upstream of Papago Creek Canyon.
I swear I had read that if CO River flows were below 20000 cfs that this bypass
was not needed.   After the trip I confirmed that flows were at 12400cfs but it
was obvious that there was no way to bypass.  The couple we met at Red Canyon
confirmed this since they had camped at Papago beach the night before.  The
bypass was a fun challenge for the group – one of the few for the trip.  We went
all the way to 75 Mile Canyon Confluence to realize it was just a large rock fan
area w/o a beach.  We backtracked upstream ¼ mile and found a good beach to
camp. The CO River was flowing clear so water was good.  This was obviously a
boaters camp as some pulled in later that evening so they didn't have to run
Hance Rapids.  There was room but instead they went on down to a smaller camp
across river.  It was nice of them not to impose on us thought there really was
room.

TUESDAY we woke early again and headed towards Tanner.  Again it was obvious we
had to take the bypass around the wall downstream of 75 Mi. Canyon thought I
thought it too could be bypassed with lower CO River flows.  As with Papogo, the
hike up 75 Mi. Canyon and up on the wall above proved to be fun with some great
views.  Once we got on the Escalante Route above Escalante Canyon the views
again were amazing.  The view of Unkar rapids and delta are great from upstream
and even better from the cliffs just downstream.  We made it to Tanner Camp in
the early afternoon in time to find the 16 beer cache a good boater friend left
for us. This was great but proved to be the best part of the Tanner Area visit. 
The beach camp at the confluence was taken so we just stayed at the main camp
(by the Toilet) which isn't that great.  It looked like there as another beach
camp upstream of the confluence but we didn't realize that `till the next
morning.  Overall, if I did this again, I'd head out on the Beamer Trail for a
mile and camp right at the bend after trail comes back down to the river. There
were some nice quiet camps with great view up and down river.

WEDNESDAY we again woke early and headed up the Beamer Trail.  This time we were
able to stick along the river at the island upstream of Espejo Cr. instead of
having to take the marked trail up on the cliffs above that must be needed at
high flows (I confirmed flows of COR and LCR combined were 12400cfs when we did
this.)  After Palisades Cr. we followed the main trail up onto the cliffs.  We
enjoyed the great views up and down river and of Temple and Chuar Buttes untill
we arrived at the Little Colorado River (LCR) confluence.  We rested where the
trail ended at the LCR and evaluated water.  We didn't want to cross the LCR (at
this point) to get good CO River water upstream of the LCR salt.  We found a
good route and friendly Tapeats ledges on the south bank of the LCR just south
of the confluence island.  It turns out that there was a nice back eddy where
the LCR meet the Colorado so reasonably clean (not salty) CO River water was
easily obtained.  Once we bagged the good CO River water we headed up the LCR to
camp legal and enjoy the "blue" waters of the smaller river - without having to
drink them.

THURSDAY, again we woke before light and headed up the south side trail along
the LCR.  Earlier, this Spring of '09. we did a trip down the Hopi Salt Wash and
out the Walter Powell Route walking along the north side of the river.  This was
an amazing bushwack and we swore not to do again.  (It would appear that "The
Author" of Colorado Plateau Canyon Hiking didn't have as much brush back when he
hiked this side and said it was easy and straight forward – or maybe he was in
the middle of the river.  At this time the north side is NOT the side to hike
along the LCR downstream of the Salt Wash.) The routes along the south side of
the LCR are obviously well used by boaters to go see the SiPaPu.  It appears to
be used even more by the Squaw Fish research teams to access netting areas up to
their camps about ½ Mi. west of the Salt Wash.  (I'll refrain on commenting
about the amazing amount of time, effort and MONEY that is obviously being spent
to protect the Squaw Fish from extinction in this area.) At least there is a
nice trail along the south side of the river.  This good trail ends about ¼ mile
from the Salt Wash trail intersection to the LCR.  It ends where there is a very
nice spring coming in from the south and obviously used by the fish teams.  This
is at the 1st reasonably major side creek coming into the LCR to the west of the
Salt Wash Trail.  The water in this spring still has a slight salt taste but is
the best tasting (in my opinion) of the springs that come out along the LCR
downstream of Big Canyon on either side of the river.  We had (and planned) to
cross the LCR at the end of the south side trail near the good spring.  We
crossed in calm water, just downstream of a terrace rapid near the spring.  The
water was about chest high but the bottom was sandy and not too muddy allowing
us to cross bare footed (though we did have water shoes and Teva's).  We brought
large trash bags to protect our packs with but really most of us could have
walked across the river here with packs up high on our shoulders.  (NOTE that
this probably would not be the case in the spring and definitely not if the LCR
was in a muddy flood stage).  The last ¼ mile along the north side of the LCR to
the Salt Wash trail was the same lousy bushwhack we had in the Spring of `09. 
It goes thru game routes in the high grass along the river for a while but
eventually ends (or did for us) at a point where there is no way to force thru
the growth.  Then one has to get up onto the rock slope to the north, above the
grass, and work along the steep, loose terrain to the Salt Wash (Benkihatso)
drainage.  "The Author" says to hug along cliff wall but even this is choked
with Cat Claws to make the last bit tough.  It was good to get to the Salt Wash
campsites that afternoon.  We camped at the HeliPad area for the good views. (We
hoped no choppers would come in since it was the fall and not Squaw Fish
spawning season). We enjoyed a quick swim in the LCR but the shade had hit so it
was cool.

FRIDAY we had to say goodbye to our friends from Albuquerque as they had to
leave up the Salt Wash Trail. We hung around for a layover day.  Later we headed
upstream to Big Canyon and eventually worked our way up to the Emerald Pool.
(Thanks to Rich for guidance on the easier way!)  This really is one of the
better pools in the canyon thought others come to mind also. This surely is one
of the hardest to get to.  Afterwards we headed down to Atomizer Falls upstream
of Big Canyon.  We had a great swim in the LCR while the sun was on the river. 
Later that day we tried to get up into the Redwall narrows of the Salt Wash
(Benkihatso) canyon to try to get to the large water tank you can see from the
trail above.  The boulder field below was more than we wanted in the late
afternoon but maybe some day we'll try it with more time.  I'd be interested to
hear from anyone who has made it up into the Redwall narrows in this drainage. 
We met 2 other groups that came down the Salt Wash trail that afternoon for a
swim in the LCR.

SATURDAY we hiked up and out the Salt Wash Trail.  It's a rough route but pretty
straight forward once you get past the up and downs above the Redwall on the
west side.  I've done the climb out several times but still just love the final
climb in the Kaibab (very similar to the Kaibab route at Eminence Break). From
there we headed back to the S. Rim to get the other car.  We had to go back to
the General Store to bring back all the extra gas I had bought there as it
turned out we didn't need a bit of it.  It was nice to meet Brittany, who worked
in the camping section, and talk over our trip and meeting her few days earlier
down at the Tanner Camp.  We headed back to Lee's Ferry to camp that night with
a nice dinner at Vermillion Cliffs since Marble Canyon's restaurant had closed
early.

SUNDAY we hiked down Jackass Canyon to find the fixed rope was gone at the
pouroff and we forgot to bring our own. We probably could have climbed down
anyway (I have before w/o rope) but the pool at the bottom was as large as ever
and may have caused slick foot problems in climbing out – so we didn't.  Still
it was a nice hike to work the legs out w/o a pack.  Then back to Salt Lake, St.
George and Ogden.

IN SUMMARY we all agreed it was a great trip.  The weather was perfect and the
water held up well at all campsites (some would argue about the salty spring
water at the Hopi Salt Wash Camp.)  I have to say that the southeast part of the
canyon and even the LCR had more people than we had expected (coming from a
Northside and backcountry snob I guess).  Still everyone was very friendly and
it was nice to talk with all we met.  We'll be back in some of these spots again
for sure.

Thanks for the report Neil.  It brought back old memories (some good/some bad)
of the trip we did there many years ago.  It was interesting to hear about your
entry into the Merlin via the Holy Grail Tonto approach.  When we did it we just
went up Shimumo, past White and around the pool at Flint.  In this lower section
of Shinumo there wasn't that much brush (back then) but still lots of creek
crossings.  Eventually (probably about where you came it there was tons of brush
and it made sense most anywhere to just stay in the creek (as you did).  I've
never been up into the Modred and would "kinda" like to but still the brush
brings back those bad old memories.  I'm glad you made it - and made it back
safely.

Charlie Hart

Tom Martin has a map in Dayhikes from the River, but I think I should
mention that I have a different understanding of where it is located
at some points. Bob Ribokas at kaibab.org has maps with photos from
several points along this route when he traveled it. I would suggest
those photos may be more help than any map, but also you need to be
able to trust your own routefinding or I think this will not work  out
well for you.

I'm having trouble interpreting your question about the saddle mtn
trail, except I suppose I should comment that if you would be coming
up from the river, and going for the road end from Boundary Ridge, and
you have never visited this area above the rim before -- then I would
say you could -- or perhaps certainly would -- feel totally lost out
there trying to find the end of Trail 31. It's not easy to find even
when you have done it before as the end of the trail on the map really
is the end -- and everything out there is flat overhead juniper where
you can see about 20 yards in any direction and it all looks the same.

On Nov 13, 2009, at 22:40, cj_ac wrote:

> Does anyone have a map on the little Nankoweap route out from the
> river? Do you pick up the saddle mt trail at the boudary?
> Thanks
> -Pat

I appreciate richard supporting the proposed policy change. For
dadphx, I agree it's a complex issue and I always respect different
views -- especially when the view is a thoughtful perspective
factually accurate. An important factor in deciding how to balance an
issue like this, one of the most important is that commercial
interests should not control public access when public non-commercial
demand competes with commercial demand. Public self-guided hiking
vastly exceeds commercial demand at GC. This GC Hikers group sharing
information is an important aspect of non-commercial access. It's true
that it can be difficult to gain a deep knowledge of GC hiking without
doing alot of it.

As a fairly adventurous GC hiker who is semi-local, I rarely have
trouble getting a permit for the places I want to go by fax or at the
GC window late in the monthly cycle. But it's the basic newbie hikers
who are trying to get a permit for IG, BAC, CC are getting locked out
by the guides at the window. I'm confident this policy change will
occur after careful consideration by NPS of all views on this.

On Nov 15, 2009, at 07:30, richard2425848 wrote:

> AS I understand it, it is not just locals, but commercial folks who
> take advantage of the system to the detriment of those of us who
> live out of state.  I would just like a system that treats everyone
> equally.
>
> Richard
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "dadphx" <daviddube@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> At the risk of getting flamed, I have an alternative view of the
>> "locals getting permits the first of the month" issue.  There are a
>> lot of locals that do A LOT of hiking in the canyon.  Many of them
>> share their stories here on this group.  Most of them are willing
>> to provide REALLY HELPFUL information, advice, cautions, and other
>> data that would be difficult for many of us to get.  I honestly
>> don't know how many of the choice permits are obtained by the
>> locals lining up on the first of November for March permits (for
>> instance), but you know, I rely on the really experienced (or at
>> least frequent) backpackers for their knowledge.
>>
>> I speak as someone with over 130 nights below the rim with from two
>> to five trips a year, but who gets my permits by faxing in the
>> request like most everyone else.  Surely some reform is badly
>> needed, but I don't want to jump on the locals just because of envy
>> at their fortunate to live where most of us find such joy.
>> --zerodaze--
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily
> represent those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with
> anything on the internet, the information presented must be viewed
> with a critical eye. Some of it may be questionable, and some is
> downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Nice tale, Neal. I did this route with a Bob Hostetler group a few
years ago. This is amazing wilderness and not much travelled so route-
finding dominates. Water sources are excellent with minor gaps between
sources. It's not that surprising that you turned back where you did,
as that is just about the steepest dirt slope you can find anywhere. I
appreciate your "successful failure" -- getting into and seeing so
much of it is anything but a total failure.  -- DN

On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:00, nealocallaghan wrote:

> N Bass -- Shinumo Amphitheater -- Modred Abyss:  A Successful Failure
>
> Author's note:  I had planned to do this trip with two others as a 7-
> day loop trip. Unfortunately, they both had to cancel shortly before
> the start date. I elected go ahead solo.

In my view Salt/Horn is a more reasonable target from Granite Rapid
than Indian Garden which is a bit far unless you are really fast. But
if you pick IG then you don't need to carry overnight water for Salt
or Horn which may improve your speed.

On Nov 13, 2009, at 13:42, sumiwada wrote:

> Itinerary we did last month, a hybrid of the Hermit loop where we
> opted to go down to Phantom Ranch on the last night instead of
> Indian Garden:
>
> 1. Hermit rest to Hermit creek
> 2. Granite rapid
> 3. Horn creek
> 4. Bright Angel campground
> 5. Hike out
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "revansringo"
> <revansringo@...> wrote:
>>
>> I was going to put in for a permit next month and wanted some
>> suggestion of a good 5 day trip in to the canyon I wanted to do
>> Indian garden campsite and thought I go down the Hermit trail other
>> than that I am pretty open , so any suggestions

Photos/info I saw on this Grapevine buttress climb they were climbing
directly from boats anchored to the wall for access -- returning
overnight to the boats and then going up and climbing more the next
day.  Seems like a strange business from the perspective of a hiker.

On Nov 12, 2009, at 22:36, John wrote:

> Cool, I can't wait to try it again.   Unfortunately, the only time I
> camped
> at the just-upstream-of-Grapevine River camp, temps were well in
> excess of 100-degrees, and I just didn't feel like exploring.   I
> had a
> feeling it'd be fun to head away from the River, angling down-River,
> though.
> (Looking at the topo, and Tom's River guide, looks like the River
> camp is
> exactly opposite Vishnu Creek.  It looks like the tiny rocky beach
> at the
> base of the "lower Grandview trail", from which the Grapevine River
> camp
> seemed un-reachable to me,  is somewhere cross-River from the word
> "Granite", perhaps the 'a').
>
> John
>
> P.S.  Saw some climbing video where some folks on a River trip were
> doing
> an ascent of "Grapevine buttress", a more or less sheer cliff
> looking to be
> close to 1000ft high.   I wonder if that is the wall directly behind
> the camp ?

Royal Arch Loop - 10-26-09 to 11-01-09

My 2 buddies, Geoff and John, and I drove up to Ruby Pt.(campsite SE1)on
Saturday for 2 days of carcamping, dayhiking, and preparing for the start of our
hike on Monday.  Tusayan was filled with smoke from a controlled burn as we
cruised through on our way to Pasture Wash.  It was very eery.  Noone was
manning the gate at the reservation border and we proceeded onward  without
incident.  We stopped for a quick look at the buildings at Pasture Wash Ranger
Station and then headed for our campsite on the rim.  Camp was set up and lunch
was taken care of by noonish, so we set off to dayhike to the top of Fossil
Mountain.  Hiking to the end of our road was Havasupai Pt. with its incredible
views.  We then hiked along the rim towards Fossil Mountain, dropping into a
ravine that took us to the climb up Fossil Mountain.  The landscape we would be
hiking was spread out before us with Mt. Huthawali and its dominating presence. 
Mt. Huthawli was the object of tomorrow's dayhike, so we headed back to camp for
beer and Trifungal Pasta.  The Big Screen was on and we moved our chairs to the
edge of the rim and enjoyed a beautiful sunset.  Off in the distance, we could
see a huge plume of smoke rising above Tusayan and drifting south.  We retired
fairly early, as it was dark and we had plans for tomorrow.

Enjoyed a good night's sleep and was awakened before the sun came up by the
sounds of Geoff cooking breakfast.  It was a little chilly, although nothing was
frozen.  After eating, we put our last night's cache in a large Christmas Cookie
tin and headed for South Bass Trailhead. There was total of 6 cars in the
parking lot and it seemed almost crowded.  2 couples were just getting ready to
start their hike, as we headed down the trail.  We placed our cache, along with
3 gallons of water, at the edge of the esplanade, where the trail stops dropping
down.  The cache was covered with big rocks and was fairly invisible.  We then
headed for Mt. Huthawali.  Climbing up and down rocks and boulders, we headed
for the ridge that would take us the chute and the top.  Geoff and John got
rattled at passing a bush and that was the only snake sighting on our whole
trip.  We had lunch on top of Mt. Huthawli and enjoyed the views and the
solitude.  Back at camp, beer and tacos and the Big Screen finished off the day.
Retired early again, as it was dark and we were tired.  Tomorrow was the start
of our hike.
...to be continued...

AS I understand it, it is not just locals, but commercial folks who take
advantage of the system to the detriment of those of us who live out of state. 
I would just like a system that treats everyone equally.

Richard

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "dadphx" <daviddube@...> wrote:
>
> At the risk of getting flamed, I have an alternative view of the "locals
getting permits the first of the month" issue.  There are a lot of locals that
do A LOT of hiking in the canyon.  Many of them share their stories here on this
group.  Most of them are willing to provide REALLY HELPFUL information, advice,
cautions, and other data that would be difficult for many of us to get.  I
honestly don't know how many of the choice permits are obtained by the locals
lining up on the first of November for March permits (for instance), but you
know, I rely on the really experienced (or at least frequent) backpackers for
their knowledge.
>
> I speak as someone with over 130 nights below the rim with from two to five
trips a year, but who gets my permits by faxing in the request like most
everyone else.  Surely some reform is badly needed, but I don't want to jump on
the locals just because of envy at their fortunate to live where most of us find
such joy.
> --zerodaze--
>

At the risk of getting flamed, I have an alternative view of the "locals getting
permits the first of the month" issue.  There are a lot of locals that do A LOT
of hiking in the canyon.  Many of them share their stories here on this group. 
Most of them are willing to provide REALLY HELPFUL information, advice,
cautions, and other data that would be difficult for many of us to get.  I
honestly don't know how many of the choice permits are obtained by the locals
lining up on the first of November for March permits (for instance), but you
know, I rely on the really experienced (or at least frequent) backpackers for
their knowledge.

I speak as someone with over 130 nights below the rim with from two to five
trips a year, but who gets my permits by faxing in the request like most
everyone else.  Surely some reform is badly needed, but I don't want to jump on
the locals just because of envy at their fortunate to live where most of us find
such joy.
--zerodaze--

Hi Neal, I enjoyed reading your trip report.  You gave it great try and were
pretty close to completing the route.  It's always hard to retreat, but it seems
like you made a good call to back off when you got over your comfort level. 
That's a rough area for a solo effort unless you've done the routes before. 
It's gets pretty "climby" approaching Elaine Saddle and hits low class 5 for a
20' pitch going up Lancelot Point if you select the left-most Coconino route
(which is easy to do).  The right Coconino route is class 3.

I've done the Merlin side Elaine Saddle break and the Modred side break.  We
once tried to hike down Merlin and around into Modred to explore the area, but
the brush was so bad that we opted to climb up out of Merlin to Elaine Saddle
and then head down the Modred side bypassing a lot bushwhacking along the creek.
It might be (err ... is) the worst area for brush in the canyon.  I felt the
innumerable scratches on my arms and legs after reading your report, even though
they have long healed :)

I'm not sure you were on the "right" approach up to Elaine Saddle by your
description though.  There is only one small crack that allows you through the
final Supai cliff barrier and it's much further to the right than you would
intuitively think from below.  It's not too bad if you hit all of the moves, but
it gets downright exciting in a few places if you get off the route.

One final note: my brother-in-law and I were on our way to Swamp Point five of
six years ago and at the cattle tank marking the Swamp Point road cut off we
encountered two buffalo.  They spooked and disappeared very quickly.  We were
mesmerized almost not believing what we saw. I'm glad to hear that we weren't
crazy!  Someone else has seen em' too :)

Regards,
Rich

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "nealocallaghan" <nealoc@...> wrote:
>
> N Bass -- Shinumo Amphitheater -- Modred Abyss:  A Successful Failure
>
> Author's note:  I had planned to do this trip with two others as a 7-day loop
trip. Unfortunately, they both had to cancel shortly before the start date. I
elected go ahead solo.
>
> After a 9.5 hour car trip, I found the North Bass trail access road  and
camped overnight at the site just inside the park boundary where the Swamp Point
and Point Sublime roads converge.  Next morning, I walked the 8 miles along the
access road to the N Bass trailhead. It was in better shape then I would have
thought, though a high clearance vehicle would be a good idea.  As I was
walking, I made an animal sighting of something I never would have expected to
see:  a buffalo!  I was about 150 feet from it when it saw me and ran off.  I
found many buffalo tracks and scat all along the road there.  I'd never heard of
buffalo in Grand Canyon NP before. I continued to the trailhead and started down
by 12:30. The upper trail was steep but not as scary as Nankoweap is in places. 
As the trail got into White creek drainage it got very brushy in places - dense
brush over your head. By 4:00, I was at the place in the trail where it climbs
out of the creek drainage to avoid a large pour-off to start the route to the
redwall descent. Found a good camp spot for the night.
>
> Luckily for me the weather during the entire trip was as good as I could hope
for:  clear skies, 60s - 80s during the day, 40s - 60s at night and virtually no
wind.  The trade off was shorter daylight hours.
>
> Next morning I continued on. Met three guys who were hiking out.  The redwall
descent was steep and loose, about 500 feet elevation change, but not really a
problem going down.  Continued on in the creek bed.  The trail meanders back and
forth from one side to the other or right down the middle. There's a lot of
boulder hopping and brush on the edges which can hinder route finding and the
trail is not cairned well in places. The water in White creek flows only
intermittently, so you always have to keep a good amount in your pack. By early
afternoon I was at the place where the trail forks at the Tapeats narrows. I
elected to take the bypass which was very easy to follow and walk on and I made
good time.  Made it to the overlook of Shinumo creek and a few minutes later to
the campsight by about 4:00.  Darkness this time of year is at about 5:30.
Overnight, a mouse gnawed a hole in my tent.
>
> I decided the next morning to day-hike to the end of the trail at the river. 
However, I took all of my gear as I didn't want to experience any more mice
attacks. Shinumo is a big and fast flowing creek and immediately I found that
I'd have to cross it at least several times.  I was able to find places where I
could cross without getting water over the boot tops.  Made it to the river. No
raft parties in site. Bass rapids were impressive.  The temperature must have
been in the lower 80s.  Found Bass's original camp on the way back which I had
missed on the way down. Got back to the campsite and moved on up creek  about
1/4 mile to the confluence of White and Shinumo creeks and found another small
and pleasant camp site there.
>
> Next morning, I headed up the narrows of White creek and found the unnamed
drainage that was supposed to "go" to get up to the Tonto level.  It was a tough
climb up.  No marked route.  I took one sub-drainage where I had to hike much
higher then I wanted but finally got out of the drainage. Had to descend about
150 feet to get down to the more level Tonto level.  After that it was
continuous hiking around the Holy Grail headland and on the Tonto on the other
side.  That(east) side was much more difficult with a steeper slope and many
more drainage gullies which were difficult to cross.  There is a route of sorts
on the Tonto -- the "Burro route" -- but it is only a faint trail at best and
comes and goes.  You tend to lose it completely at the drainages where there is
more rock fall.  By later afternoon, I found myself running out of both daylight
and water (despite carrying about 4+ liters) and still on the Tonto.  There was
no level place to put up a tent.  I ended up bivouacing with the ground cloth on
the levelest place I could find and without water.  Next morning I continued on
for about one hour and found the confluence of Merlin and Modred. I was able to
descend to creek level as the Tonto cliffs give way to slopes in that area.
>
> After a brief breakfast, I decided to head on up Modred.  Almost instantly
conditions got worse.  The brush was overwhelming.  It is a combination of
acacia, manzanita, willow, tamarisk/salt cedar -- most of these well over head
level. They are almost imperious to penetration and if you tried to get around
them, there are bayonet agave, prickly pear, and cholla cacti waiting like
landmines for you to blunder into them. I quickly found my arms getting ripped
to shreds trying to fend off branches and stickers.  The going was so slow that
by mid-afternoon, I was only a little more then halfway there and knew I
couldn't make it before dark to my planned camp site at the fault ravine if I
didn't change my plan. I decided to hike directly in the creek. It was fast and
ankle-to-upper-thigh deep. I felt like Humphrey Bogart in the "African Queen"
where he's pulling the boat on the river.  At least there were no leeches in
this creek! As soon as I started walking in the creek I was making much better
progress.  I finally made it to the camp site by 4:00.  Thankfully, it was free
of brush.
>
> Next morning I started up the fault ravine toward Elaine Castle saddle.  It
was initially very brushy too with a small trickle of water in the bed.  As I
got higher, the brush became somewhat less dense but still problematic.  I
encountered increasingly higher pour-offs.  On one of these, I found myself
having to climb very high out of the bed -- 50-75 feet on very loose rocks and
blocking brush.  Some of the footing gave way and went crashing into the ravine
with a huge dust cloud.  At that point, I got nervous about the climb. I went
higher and the climbing became even steeper. There were about 3 or 4 places
where I had to take off my pack and pass it ahead of me in order to get up to
the next level. Finally I could see Elaine Castle still a long way away.  I
estimate I was about half way up the ravine route when I decided not to go on. 
If I tried it and got stuck higher up I might not be able to get back or risked
falling with more serious consequences.  If I did make it to the saddle, I knew
that the next day's climb to Lancelot was even steeper then what this part was
described to be. Perhaps if I had been with one or two other people I might
chance it, but not alone.
>
> My only alternative was to hike out by the same route I had come in. I stayed
at the same camp site that night and checked my remaining food supply which was
very limited as I had brought only a little more than what I would need to go
out by Lancelot. By that route, I was only a 5-6 miles from the car.  But by the
way I had come, I was about 18-20 miles away.  Next morning, I started back down
Modred, this time taking to the creek immediately and hiking the whole way in
the creek. Got a little flummoxed near the end as I thought I should be there by
now and became afraid that I had somehow gotten into Shinumo without noticing
it. Finally figured out I was just a couple hundred yards from it and completed
the hike to the confluence. Got some water and got back up on the Tonto when it
got dark after an hour of hiking. I found a level spot in a gully drainage which
I chanced since it was clear skies. Continued on the next morning with only
dregs of food left. I made it around to the unnamed drainage that I had come up
on, dreading the climb down. While I was reconnoitering around the drainage, I
suddenly heard a voice a long way away.  I called out and got an answer back. 
Off in the distance on the edge of the drainage, I spotted two hikers!  We were
able to yell back and forth and I ended up hiking down to there level.  They are
a nice young couple who had happened to be in the Merlin-Modred area at the same
time I was, and were about an hour behind me and hiking out in the same
direction.  They were the first people I saw in almost a week.  I told them my
food situation and they immediately gave me some of theirs'.  We found a
less-awful route down to White creek. They were going to head down to the river,
try to hitch a ride across and go up and out by the South Bass trail. Before we
split up, they gave me enough food to be able hike out on for two more days.
Bless them!
>
> I continued on up White creek in the narrows - the part I had bypassed on the
way down. It was pretty, but at this point, I was just thinking about making as
much time as possible to get far enough up trail to where I could make a shot at
getting out the following day.  By late afternoon, I reached a place where the
trail seemed to disappear despite my being on the creek. I spent about 1 1/2
hours looking for it without success.  It was getting dark so I found a place to
camp for the night, short of my desired goal for the day. I didn't sleep much
that night.  Looking closely at the map, I located where I thought I was and
noticed that the trail seemed to veer off away from the creek. Early the next
morning, I hiked back down the creek and found a bypass route marked by a cairn
I had missed the evening before.
>
> I immediately started hiking up the bypass and was back on the trail. I hiked
very hard all that morning. I estimate I hiked about 6 miles in 5 1/2 hours and
climbed 3500 feet that last day. By 12:45, I made it up and out of the canyon. 
While this forced retreat was playing out over the preceding days, I had been in
touch by satellite phone with my brother-in-law, Steve, in Phoenix and also with
the park emergency services, notifying them of my food situation.  Steve was
very instrumental in talking with the park service since my satellite was only
intermittent -- 30 seconds to 1 or 2 minute connections at best. It was also
very reassuring to me to have him involved with his prior search and rescue and
survival training in the military. Since I thought I had a good chance of making
it out before I ran out of food, I didn't ask for assistance from the park. 
Steve, however, decided to drive up and meet me at the place I had left my
friend Jeff's car or on the 8-mile Swamp Point road as I continued to hike it
out (he had loaned it to me for the trip).  Finally, by about 3:30, we met on
the access road about 1 mile from Jeff's car.  I had walked about 13 miles
altogether that day. Its a good thing Steve did come up because Jeff's car
wouldn't start!  Steve gave me a jump start and we drove together back to
Flagstaff and stayed overnight there.  Next morning I was on the road to
Albuquerque.  I was overdue at work but had called and let them know the
situation. Everyone was very understanding.  I spent the next couple of days at
home resting and recuperating.
>
> All in all, it was a tough hike. I estimate I hike a total of 55 miles. No
major injuries during the 9 days of hiking but my arms were a mass of
blood-streaked scratches. A branch had hit me in the eye and caused a
conjunctival hemorrhage which is harmless but freaked out everyone who saw it.
My knee (8 months post arthroscopic surgery for torn meniscus) held up
remarkably well, not giving me any problem whatsoever. I had about three minor
falls which luckily resulted in no injury. I think I lost about 5 pounds due to
the limited food and hard hiking in the last several days.
>
> I would have to agree that of the GC trails I've hiked, N Bass is possibly the
hardest.  However, the off-trail part of this hike was much harder then Bass,
particularly the lovely little section of Modred Abyss hell which I will have
nightmares about for years.
>
> I learned some valuable but hard-bought lessons from this trip.  First, be
flexible about trip plans if conditions change. I should have modified my trip
to do only the N Bass part and leave the Shinumo - Modred part out.  I should
have planned for the contingency of having to turn back near the end of the
hike, and carried more food. Third, know your own abilities.  I had a
less-then-clear idea of what the climb out would involve from other trip
reports. It was definitely more then I bargained for in a solo situation.
>
> All in all, I guess I would have to call this trip a "successful failure." I
didn't finish the hike as planned but I did hike out on my own two feet,
somewhat bloodied but unbowed.
>

Does anyone have a map on the little Nankoweap route out from the river? Do you
pick up the saddle mt trail at the boudary?
Thanks
-Pat