Sorry, haven't read the replies to your question, so perhaps it has
already been answered.

We did this route several years ago including the technical descent
through the Redwall narrows of Buckfarm, then crossing the river and
exiting Eminence Break.  Back in the 1990s when I always seemed to
have a lot more time on my hands than now, this was one of my
favorite hiking areas in Marble Canyon.

To answer your question, you cannot exit Buckfarm either upriver or
downriver without a river crossing.  Upriver, both sides of the river
quickly become sheer walls.  There are no banks on either side, so a
river level hike from Buckfarm to South Canyon is not possible.
Downriver, you can hike river right for a ways - in fact, the hiking
is better on river right - because of the orientation of the canyon
there, there is a lot of grass and dirt on the right, and associated
deer trails.  You can hike down to a bit past the area of the Bridge
of Poles, but then again, you will lose the banks and not be able to
continue even past Pres. Harding rapids.  The river is glassy smooth
between Buckfarm and Pres. Harding, and a crossing is easy, probably
as safe as any on the Colorado, which is not to say it is totally
safe - things can always happen.  It is possible to cross over and
exit Emin. Break;  or, you can continue on, ascend some minor cliffs,
then descend again and cross in the area of Saddle Canyon, then exit
the route at mile 49, or go on to Nankoweap;  or, if you are really
ambititious, continue on on river left and exit Walter Powell or
whatever.  Emin. Break is the easiest way out.

Another advantage of having a small boat is that you are very likely
to encounter multiple pools in the Redwall narrows of Buckfarm.  We
used our small boats extensively on the rappels, hanging the boat
below us and rap'ing into the little rafts.

If you have any questions about the route, feel free to contact me,
either via the Group or directly.  I'm sure you already know - this
is a very tough route with multiple possibilities for mishap.  We
went in there 4 times to scout, cache water and gear, etc before
being prepared to actually descend it, and even then, we had some
hairy moments.  Even the descent from the rim to the Redwall is not
easy.

All the best,

Bill Orman
Tuba City, AZ





--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Todd"
<todds_hiking_guide@...> wrote:
>
> After a recent exploration of Buckfarm, I'd like to complete a
descent
> of the canyon then perform a loop traveling up or down along the
> Colorado. Does anyone know if this is possible?
>
> I have a handle on the obstacles within Buckfarm itself, the
question
> is whether it's possible to get back out again after pulling ropes.
> One option is to cross the river and come out Eminence Break, but
I'd
> prefer not to carry personal rafts.
>
> I was thinking escape is possible at South Canyon (heading up
river)
> or Nankoweap (heading down). Perhaps there are other points of
escape
> in between? I'm just not sure if travel along the river is an
option
> in either of these directions (Steck's loop travels along the top
of
> the redwall, which doesn't really help).
>
> Thanks!
>
>      -Todd
>

I had pretty much the same observations as John when I did the route
last week, both directions.

When I was going up the rock slide at Papago I was not looking forward
to it at all on the way back. I missed a cairn on the way up and ended
up on a slightly different but still passable route. On the way back I
just followed the cairns from the top and it was no big deal. The rock
fall looks worse from the side than it does when you are actually on it.

The cliff on the other side was also not a problem. I had to rope the
pack down at the very top and then just continued to rope it the rest
of the way since it was already on the line. The lower portions could
probably have been done with the pack on. I went up the entire thing
on the way back with the pack on. Only slightly uncomfortable at the
very top.

The climb in Seventy-five was a little more touchy. I had to haul the
pack up at one spot in the lower section but managed to climb the
upper one with the pack on. On the way back I roped down through both
sections.

I don't recall a "keyhole slot" between Seventy-five and Papago at all
so perhaps there is a way around.

I think the keyhole slot referred to is just a little ways above the
wall (at Papago Creek) going west-bound.  I too roped my pack down at
the wall going east, but was easily able to climb the wall with my
pack on when headed west-bound as there are numerous small ledges to
stand on and get hold of going up.

Richard

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Ribokas"
<ribokasb@...> wrote:
>
> I had pretty much the same observations as John when I did the route
> last week, both directions.
>
> When I was going up the rock slide at Papago I was not looking
forward
> to it at all on the way back. I missed a cairn on the way up and
ended
> up on a slightly different but still passable route. On the way
back I
> just followed the cairns from the top and it was no big deal. The
rock
> fall looks worse from the side than it does when you are actually
on it.
>
> The cliff on the other side was also not a problem. I had to rope
the
> pack down at the very top and then just continued to rope it the
rest
> of the way since it was already on the line. The lower portions
could
> probably have been done with the pack on. I went up the entire thing
> on the way back with the pack on. Only slightly uncomfortable at the
> very top.
>
> The climb in Seventy-five was a little more touchy. I had to haul
the
> pack up at one spot in the lower section but managed to climb the
> upper one with the pack on. On the way back I roped down through
both
> sections.
>
> I don't recall a "keyhole slot" between Seventy-five and Papago at
all
> so perhaps there is a way around.
>

Hello John.

"Once you're above the 4th-class climb, you have to follow
more ledges to the top. Cairns lead you to a keyhole slot
you have to go up through that is WAY too narrow for a pack."

My pack and I fought my way through that slot when Lisa and I were on the
Escalante Route in April.  Lisa took a higher trail that bypassed the slot
and had to help me pull my pack through.  My advise to those coming off the
papago wall is take the highest trail starting at the top of the wall.
Going through that slot is was a waste of time and energy and it ripped-up
my pack.  The narrow, steep, and unstable ledge at the foot of the slot
would also be unforgiving if you stumble.

I completely agree with you about sport climbing.  Sport climbing has
certainly given me more confidence and skill on exposed sections in the
Canyon.

Best,
John N. Gibbs


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Tanner slide was dangerous in the fact the rocks
were covered with dust and if you stepped on the wrong
one the whole thing could start sliding again.
We crossed one at a time as far down at the bottom as
we could.  There were lots of limbs down and holes to
watch out for.  It was a scamble up the side through
loose dirt and hand holds that might give way.

The Popago slide may be more stable but who knows. It
was very dangerous looking to me.  We climbed with
plenty of distance between each other and pointed out
loose rocks not to grab a hold of.  You tried to climb
and only use the rocks above to stabilize with and not
pull on them.  Papago was one place you are taking
your life in your hands.  You were trusting no rocks
above came down on top of you.  That was about as much
exposure I needed in my adventure. Kirk

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "billferris2003"
<BillFerris@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kirk,
>
> Have you done the Papago slide near Hance Rapids? If so, how would
you
> compare it to your climb through the fresh Tanner slide? If there's
a
> reasonable route through the Tanner slide, it seems to me that
> stabilizing and marking it would be better than trying to restore
the
> trail to some previous state.
>
> Bill Ferris
> Flagstaff
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk Wasson"
> <kwasson@> wrote:
> >
> > We heard about the slide from another hiker but not that it was
> > closed. There was no indication from the bottom.  The NPS was not
> > letting anyone go down but we talked to them when we came out and
we
> > were the last group going east. The only signs were at the top
when
> > we came out.
> >
> > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Sam" <sam_hikes@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Were you able to get special permission to hike there as I
thought
> > > it was illegal area?
> > > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk Wasson"
> > > <kwasson@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We came out the Tanner Sunday. Do not recommend it but was
out of
> > > food.
> > > >
> > > > Here are some pictures of the slide.
> > > >
> > > > Trip detail will follow when I catch up.
> > > >
> > > > Kirk
> > > >
> > > > http://wildernist3.googlepages.com/tanner_slide.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "nealocallaghan"
> > > > <nealoc@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know if any hikers in the Tanner access area
were
> > > trapped
> > > > > below the slide and if so, how did they get out?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Four of us did the Escalante route last March - Tanner to Grandview. If one
doesnšt have a fear of heights the climb up is fine. Even the one person who
doesnšt like heights & has limited experience climbing did fine. Two of us
did it with loosened packs and two without packs ­ we just lifted them up,
no need for a rope but I can see where a light one could be helpful.
Wonderful view and exploration up Papago Canyon was pretty nice. We spent
some time on top just enjoying it. The scree going down was miserable. Big
and loose and not much fun but we took our time, spaced people out and
everyone got down just fine. Spacing people out seems to be the trick ­ each
of us had minor rock spills and one did an unintentional glissade on some
smaller rocks but no one got hit. I think this is one of the most diverse
Canyon hikes there is ­ lots of different views, geology, vegetation,
terrain, and in our trip weather!

Ruth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RRFW Riverwire - Glen Canyon Dam Update
November 6, 2007

Glen Canyon Dam Operations

Releases from Glen Canyon Dam in November 2007 will average 10,000 cubic feet
per second (cfs) with a total of 600,000 acre-feet scheduled to be released for
the month.  On Mondays through Fridays in November, daily release fluctuations
due to load following will likely vary between a low of 7,000 cfs (during late
evening and early morning off-peak hours) to a high of 13,000 cfs (during
daylight and early evening on-peak hours).

On Saturdays, release fluctuations will likely vary between a low of 7,000 cfs
to a high of 12,500 cfs.  On Sundays, release fluctuations will likely vary
between a low of 7,000 cfs to a high of 12,000 cfs.

Releases in December 2007 are scheduled to be higher than November.  The current
schedule shows 800,000 acre-feet of release in December 2007, which corresponds
to an average flow of 13,000 cfs.



Upper Colorado River Basin Hydrology

April through July unregulated inflow to Lake Powell in 2007 was 4.05 million
acre-feet, only 51 percent of average.  Water year inflow to Lake Powell for
2007 (October 2006 through September 2007) was 68 percent of average.

Inflow to Lake Powell is currently 8,500 cfs (November 6, 2007).  Total
unregulated inflow in October 2007 was 467,000 acre-feet, or 85 percent of
average.

Lake Powell reached a seasonal peak elevation of 3,611.7 feet on June 25, 2007. 
The current elevation of Lake Powell (November 6, 2007) is 3,600.4 feet with
11.80 million acre-feet of storage (49 percent of capacity).

The water surface elevation of Lake Powell will likely decrease between now and
March of 2008. The current projected elevation of Lake Powell on January 1, 2008
is 3,595 feet.



Upper Colorado River Basin Drought

The Upper Colorado River Basin is experiencing a protracted multi-year drought. 
Since 1999, inflow to Lake Powell has been below average in every year except
one.

In the summer of 1999, Lake Powell was essentially full with reservoir storage
at
23.5 million acre-feet, or 97 percent of capacity.  Inflow to Lake Powell in
1999 was 109 percent of average. The manifestation of drought conditions in the
Upper Colorado River Basin began in the fall months of 1999.  A five year period
of extreme drought occurred in water years 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004 with
unregulated inflow to Lake Powell only 62, 59, 25, 51, and 49 percent of
average, respectively. Lake Powell storage decreased through this five-year
period, with reservoir storage reaching a low of 8.0 million acre-feet (33
percent of capacity) on April 8, 2005.

Drought conditions eased in water year 2005 in the Upper Colorado River Basin.
Precipitation was above average in 2005 and unregulated inflow to Lake Powell
was 105 percent of average.  Lake Powell increased by 2.77 million acre-feet (31
feet in elevation) during water year 2005. But as is often the case, one
favorable year does not necessarily end a protracted drought.  In 2006, there
was a return to drier conditions in the Colorado River Basin.  Unregulated
inflow to Lake Powell in water year 2006 was only 71 percent of average.

Water year 2007 was another year of below average inflow with unregulated inflow
into Lake Powell at 68 percent of average.  Over the past 8 years (2000 through
2007, inclusive), inflow to Lake Powell has been below average in all but one
year (2005).

Reservoir storage in Lake Powell and Lake Mead has decreased during the past 8
years. Reservoir storage in Lake Powell and Lake Mead is currently 49 and 48
percent of capacity, respectively.

This release courtesy Tom Ryan, United States Bureau of Reclamation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RIVERWIRE is a free service to the community of river lovers from River Runners
for Wilderness. To join, send an e-mail address to riverwire@... and we'll
add it to the RRFW RIVERWIRE e-mail alerts list.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Several people have recommended spacing people out when going up or down the
Papago slide.  Please keep in mind that spacing people out can sometimes make
things even more dangerous.  You need to space people far enough so that a
dislodged rock will not hit the person below, even if the rock plummets all the
way to the bottom.  Better to go in tight groups than to provide enough space
for the rock to gain momentum, but not enough space to be completely clear of
it.  I've done the Papago slide and climb several times.  A couple of weeks ago,
six of us did it in pairs.  The second pair didn't even start down until the
first was completely out of the chute.  Bob B.

Ruth Glenn <rglenn@...> wrote:
           Four of us did the Escalante route last March - Tanner to Grandview.
If one
doesnšt have a fear of heights the climb up is fine. Even the one person who
doesnšt like heights & has limited experience climbing did fine. Two of us
did it with loosened packs and two without packs ­ we just lifted them up,
no need for a rope but I can see where a light one could be helpful.
Wonderful view and exploration up Papago Canyon was pretty nice. We spent
some time on top just enjoying it. The scree going down was miserable. Big
and loose and not much fun but we took our time, spaced people out and
everyone got down just fine. Spacing people out seems to be the trick ­ each
of us had minor rock spills and one did an unintentional glissade on some
smaller rocks but no one got hit. I think this is one of the most diverse
Canyon hikes there is ­ lots of different views, geology, vegetation,
terrain, and in our trip weather!

Ruth

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "John N. Gibbs"
<john.n.gibbs@...> wrote:
>
> Hello John.
>
> "Once you're above the 4th-class climb, you have to follow
> more ledges to the top. Cairns lead you to a keyhole slot
> you have to go up through that is WAY too narrow for a pack."
>
I don't recall any hairy climbs or slides going from Tanner to Hance.
But that was over 30 yars ago, and in those days, nothing much fazed me.
I do recall some cairns... Could be landscape changed..?

I have been increasingly interested in the idea of shedding a tent for
the shelter of a tarp and I have a question, hopefully not too
shallow, for some of the more ultra-light folks.  Certainly, the idea
of shedding a tent for a one pound tarp seems appealing.  However, I
reside in TN where I do most of my backpacking and where tonight's
temps have dipped to 29.

My biggest concern has to do with wind and if a tarp is a suitable
companion to camp below certain temps.  This may at first seem
off-topic but I would point out that at least 5 of my Canyon trips saw
temps dip to 30 degrees or below.

I have a 20 degree moonstone down bag which I literally froze in one
night at the top of Bedrock canyon although I was in a (brand name)
Tarp Tent.  The wind blew all night long through the hoop-type tent
and despite putting on every article of clothing I owned, I froze. I
later sent the bag back and received a new, improved bag.  But for
those of you who are tarp believers, are they advised unless camping
is near dead-calm and above freezing?  Your thoughts are appreciated.

Brian,
   How was the hike?  Did you write it up?  Any advice on that hike
including choice of campsites and water issues?

Cheers
Frank


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <wolfsoul@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm going to be doing the Hermits-Tonto-BA loop in October.  We start
> hiking on a Monday and exit on a Friday.  The plan is to drive up
> Sunday and stay the night at a hotel that night, then stay at a hotel
> again on Friday night before driving home on Saturday.
>
> Any suggestions for cheap places to stay in or near the park?  Would I
> even stand a snowballs chance of getting something inside the park
> this close to October?
>
> All I need is a hot shower and a clean room.  (Or rather, that's all
> my wife needs.  All I need is a patch of ground.)  We don't need
> anything fancy.  I've kind of let this part of the trip slip a little
> bit, so I hope I'm not too late to arrange something reasonable.
>
> If you have any advise, I'd love to hear it.
>
>
> Brian
>

Anyone experience this hike recently and want to share trail
conditions, campsites, photos, and info that would make planning and
execution better please.

It's been several months but here's my trip report w/ pics for the
Hermit-Tonto-BA hike, from May of this year:
http://www.gcadventure.com/hermitloop.html

Bill Ferris
Flagstaff

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "fk_urban" <fk_urban@...>
wrote:
>
> Anyone experience this hike recently and want to share trail
> conditions, campsites, photos, and info that would make planning and
> execution better please.
>

I'm pretty sure the "wall" that you must climb, when heading
down-River from the mouth of Papago, has been there for many
many millenia.  Of course, if the River is extremely low, or
if you had a PFD and no pack (or a raft), you could probably
safely negotiate the 100 or so feet of calm water down to the
beach that lies just down-River from the wall/rockslide.
Every trip report talks about it.

As far as a "hairy climb", I don't think many would call the
Papago "wall" hairy - I certainly didn't intend to.   But it
certainly is 4th-class, meaning (as I understand it) that
it's not completely vertical but that the most agile person
imaginable would still need their hands to get up it.

The topmost move does not have any "bucket" type handholds,
just friction, so it's a wee bit anxious with a pack pulling
you backwards, and the fall would be maybe 20ft, definitely
enough to hurt you.

John

> I don't recall any hairy climbs or slides going from Tanner to
Hance.
> But that was over 30 yars ago, and in those days, nothing much
fazed me.
> I do recall some cairns... Could be landscape changed..?

I think the outer fabric of your sleeping bag makes a huge
difference when sleeping outside in the wind.  I have a
Western Mountaineering VersaLite, the warmest bag in their
"ultralight" series, which use a gossamer thin delicate
fabric on the outside (much like the inner fabric), which
along with 900 in*3 or similar down, allows the extreme
warmth/weight ratio.   It is a thing of great beauty and
I love it.

But the wind blows right through that fabric.   I swear I
have been cold in it at temps in the 40s, and it's rated at
5 degrees.  (Granted I am a cold sleeper, but still !)
I'm thinking of getting the 9oz bivy that Gearhead Matthews
touts, just as an outer liner for the bag.

John

> I have a 20 degree moonstone down bag which I literally froze in one
> night at the top of Bedrock canyon although I was in a (brand name)
> Tarp Tent.

Jim,

My preferred kit for the Canyon is a combination of poncho and bivy.

The combination is not appropriate when you need insect protection or
privacy.

A bivy adds about 10 degrees to your sleeping bag and provides robust
storm protection.  The bivy must be waterproof and breathable.  I am in
the process of converting from a TiGoat Epic bivy that was destroyed in
an accident, to a Mountain Laurel Designs eVent bivy.  The new one
should arrive at Thanksgiving and weight 10.6 oz.

Most of the time I sleep on top of the bivy.  A side zipper is a VERY
nice feature that allows easy entry and exit.

Bivys that do not breathe do not work for me.  I get too much
condensation.

The poncho is only a dry place to organize gear and lounge.  It is only
pitched in wet weather. I do not necessarily sleep under the poncho.
But it is there to change clothes and keep the rain off my head when the
need arises.

John,

I resemble that remark.  My picture of the Essence pack is used on the
Six Moon Designs site, but that is not proof that I am pimping gear.

I have owned an OR Advanced bivy that I returned because the pad straps
broke..

I have owned an REI Minimalist Bivy that I returned because it was too
small.

I currently also own an Integral Designs Unishelter.  It is great , but
heavy.

I also own a Bibler Winter bivy.  It stays in my ski pack.

Dick Matthews
-  What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?






johngeyles wrote:

>
> I think the outer fabric of your sleeping bag makes a huge
> difference when sleeping outside in the wind. I have a
> Western Mountaineering VersaLite, the warmest bag in their
> "ultralight" series, which use a gossamer thin delicate
> fabric on the outside (much like the inner fabric), which
> along with 900 in*3 or similar down, allows the extreme
> warmth/weight ratio. It is a thing of great beauty and
> I love it.
>
> But the wind blows right through that fabric. I swear I
> have been cold in it at temps in the 40s, and it's rated at
> 5 degrees. (Granted I am a cold sleeper, but still !)
> I'm thinking of getting the 9oz bivy that Gearhead Matthews
> touts, just as an outer liner for the bag.
>
> John
>
> > I have a 20 degree moonstone down bag which I literally froze in one
> > night at the top of Bedrock canyon although I was in a (brand name)
> > Tarp Tent.
>
>
>
>
> __




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have only used plastic 7mil 8 x 10 sheet for my "tent" while hiking
in the canyon for over 30 years. I have changed to other kinds of
plastic from time to time, based on the number of holes the covers
would develop. There are many reasons for the versatility of a tarp
(shade, water collection, etc.) but your concern seems to be warmth.
I have to say that with my down bag, while wrapped up in a tarp there
is a tendency to collect condensation and wet the bag, thereby also
reducing the warmth of the bag. However that has all changed.
This past October I tried a sheet of Tyvek as my ground cloth, tarp,
tent and loved it!! It was about 1/3 the weight although 15% bulkier
than the plastic sheet (fair trade-off). It is 100% waterproof, and
yet it "breaths". I have actually sat in a stream of water with it
wrapped around me and stayed totally dry, and also used it as a 5
gallon bucket to haul water without it dripping.
To my point, at IG we knew we would have the cold moist air sucked
off the rim during the evening and into the campsite. We all had 30
degree bags and two of us had bivvy sacks (one Gortex one not). I had
my trusty Tyvex tarp. Halfway through the evening the cold really
settled in and I was forced to wrap up in my tarp for heat (fearing
condensation). I kept checking the surface of my bag under the Tyvek
and it never had more moisture on it than it would had it been
directly exposed to the cool air (very minor), and yet it added about
15 degrees to my warmth. Really made me quite warm and comfortable
again. The non-Gortex bivvy sack ended up with a wet down bag and
rough evening, and the Gortex bivvy was dryer but still "pretty cold"
through the night.
Okay I know this is not scientific, so all those on this list that
get their bloomers in a bunch easily don't need to tell me the flaws
in my experience. The Tyvex has joined my fairly minimal pack gear,
and I suggest you give it a try. Plan to rumple up the Tyvex after
you cut it to size until it takes on the soft silky texture. It does
not effect the properties and makes it more comfortable, easier to
handle and quieter.
BTW, I'm convinced it's strong enough to act as a hammock, but I
haven't tried a long-term test. I'll let you know the results.
/\james





On Nov 7, 2007, at 2:34 AM, Jim Edmondson wrote
> I have been increasingly interested in the idea of shedding a tent for
> the shelter of a tarp and I have a question, hopefully not too
> shallow, for some of the more ultra-light folks. Certainly, the idea
> of shedding a tent for a one pound tarp seems appealing. However, I
> reside in TN where I do most of my backpacking and where tonight's
> temps have dipped to 29.
>
> My biggest concern has to do with wind and if a tarp is a suitable
> companion to camp below certain temps. This may at first seem
> off-topic but I would point out that at least 5 of my Canyon trips saw
> temps dip to 30 degrees or below.
>
> I have a 20 degree moonstone down bag which I literally froze in one
> night at the top of Bedrock canyon although I was in a (brand name)
> Tarp Tent. The wind blew all night long through the hoop-type tent
> and despite putting on every article of clothing I owned, I froze. I
> later sent the bag back and received a new, improved bag. But for
> those of you who are tarp believers, are they advised unless camping
> is near dead-calm and above freezing? Your thoughts are appreciated.
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim,

   I've been tarping for a while but with some reservations.
  I have three bags, an Integral Designs poncho liner for summer. a
first edition blue kazoo good to 30 deg now ( two lbs.) and a Foxfire
DL.(damn near 3 lbs) good to -5. Both the latter go into an OR dryloft
bivvy ( 1lb) when tarping. (1lb.) .  Anything over 45deg is summer and
just tarp and poncho liner.I carry a piece of noseeum net for face
protection.

   With the tarp slung low with hiking poles I had a big dry spot in a
Canyon thunderstorm. With big bag and bivvy it was good to -10 in
upstate NY. in a 15 kt wind. You can adapt tarps to shade you in summer
or snug up in winter.

    I keep my pack weight at 28 lbs max. Even for a week. Summer is
water weight winter is snivvel gear. What I wear does go up in winter..

    Stove is home made coke can with wind shield and uses Ti tent stakes
through the windshield for holdint up pots. ( MSR Ti kettle.and
snowpeak cup)  I burn Everclear so I can have cocktails at the end of
day and only one fuel bottle. I like food and dont starve !

   I cant make the point effective enough to" loose the pack weight!"

   I still use an old TNF archangel pack for comfort but have trimmed it
down to 4lbs, you can save 2 lbs with one of the light packs.

   Examine everything you bring along and if you havent used it leave it
behind the next trip and see if you still need it. Dont listen to what
backpacker mag or the stores say you need , figure it out for yourself.

   When you lighten up you can move with confidence and ease and in some
cases help carry some of your slow friends gear so they can keep up !

    If I was going to hole up in a snow storm for a few days a tent
makes sense , If you have to move use a tarp!

                                       Wa

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "johngeyles" <jge@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I'm pretty sure the "wall" that you must climb, when heading
> down-River from the mouth of Papago, has been there for many
> many millenia.  Of course, if the River is extremely low, or
> if you had a PFD and no pack (or a raft), you could probably
> safely negotiate the 100 or so feet of calm water down to the
> beach that lies just down-River from the wall/rockslide.
> Every trip report talks about it.
>
> As far as a "hairy climb", I don't think many would call the
> Papago "wall" hairy - I certainly didn't intend to.   But it
> certainly is 4th-class, meaning (as I understand it) that
> it's not completely vertical but that the most agile person
> imaginable would still need their hands to get up it.
>
> The topmost move does not have any "bucket" type handholds,
> just friction, so it's a wee bit anxious with a pack pulling
> you backwards, and the fall would be maybe 20ft, definitely
> enough to hurt you.
>
> John
>
> I didn't go by the river, and didn't encounter even a 4th class
climb going to the Tonto at Hance from upriver.

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Dana Kaleta <dakaleta@...> wrote:
>
> There's a nice history in the Hermit Trail trail guide.  All the info is
> there and trail details, geology, and history in nice, compact resource
> for under $4, I think, from GC Assn Bookstores.  Probably avail on the
> internet site.  Many folks have taken the liberty of stealing artifacts
> over the years from Old Hermit Camp.  There used to be much more glass,
> porcelain pieces, etc.  Much has disappeared over the last several
> years.  Very sad!  I noticed the same around Pete Berry's cabin on the
> Mesa on a recent trip.  Also noticed fewer artifacts in the make-shift
> shelf in Beamer's cabin (in photos recently posted on this listserve).
> It seems the more traffic to these places, the less LNT and general
> trail ethic...  The storage shack is currently used by NPS and trail
> crews for equipment.  -Dana
>
>
>
>Dana,
Thanks for the info, I'll be checking it out.
I'll also try the grand canyon museum folks and see what they can tell me.
I 'spose they'd have pictures too??
The Hermit Camp was a place that seemed to have been a community as opposed to
the
mostly single dwellings of others. There could be a lot of human interest
stories to be told
from people who lived and worked there. -Wayne

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, James Hayford <DeltaJH@...>
wrote:
  Plan to rumple up the Tyvex after
> you cut it to size until it takes on the soft silky texture. It does
> not effect the properties and makes it more comfortable, easier to
> handle and quieter.


Run the tyvek sheet through your washing machine a couple of times in
plain water, that does a great job of softening it.  I have not tried
using the dryer, but If you are opposed to wasting the water, I suppose
you could try running it through a couple of times on "air dry" or
maybe your lowest temp setting.

Bob

I looked at the DuPont website and found there are several different
kinds of Tyvek. What are you guys using?  Tyvek HomeWrap?  And where
do you get it?  Just a local builders' supply store?   Thx, Alane

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Holland"
<bob3car@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, James Hayford
<DeltaJH@>
> wrote:
>  Plan to rumple up the Tyvex after
> > you cut it to size until it takes on the soft silky texture. It
does
> > not effect the properties and makes it more comfortable, easier
to
> > handle and quieter.
>
>
> Run the tyvek sheet through your washing machine a couple of times
in
> plain water, that does a great job of softening it.  I have not
tried
> using the dryer, but If you are opposed to wasting the water, I
suppose
> you could try running it through a couple of times on "air dry" or
> maybe your lowest temp setting.
>
> Bob
>

James,

How do you attach your guylines?

TYVEK is breathable.  But  "breathable" is relative.

I spent a week in a TYVEK burrito one night.  The 50+ mph wind broke the
packing tape guyloops holding the TYVEK tarp.  I grabbed it an rolled.

I have a box of TYVEK pants that weighs 2.2 oz.

Dick Matthews
"If everything seems to be going well you have obviously overlooked
something."
--Steven Wright


James Hayford wrote:

> I have only used plastic 7mil 8 x 10 sheet for my "tent" while hiking
> in the canyon for over 30 years. I have changed to other kinds of
> plastic from time to time, based on the number of holes the covers
> would develop. There are many reasons for the versatility of a tarp
> (shade, water collection, etc.) but your concern seems to be warmth.
> I have to say that with my down bag, while wrapped up in a tarp there
> is a tendency to collect condensation and wet the bag, thereby also
> reducing the warmth of the bag. However that has all changed.
> This past October I tried a sheet of Tyvek as my ground cloth, tarp,
> tent and loved it!! It was about 1/3 the weight although 15% bulkier
> than the plastic sheet (fair trade-off). It is 100% waterproof, and
> yet it "breaths". I have actually sat in a stream of water with it
> wrapped around me and stayed totally dry, and also used it as a 5
> gallon bucket to haul water without it dripping.
> To my point, at IG we knew we would have the cold moist air sucked
> off the rim during the evening and into the campsite. We all had 30
> degree bags and two of us had bivvy sacks (one Gortex one not). I had
> my trusty Tyvex tarp. Halfway through the evening the cold really
> settled in and I was forced to wrap up in my tarp for heat (fearing
> condensation). I kept checking the surface of my bag under the Tyvek
> and it never had more moisture on it than it would had it been
> directly exposed to the cool air (very minor), and yet it added about
> 15 degrees to my warmth. Really made me quite warm and comfortable
> again. The non-Gortex bivvy sack ended up with a wet down bag and
> rough evening, and the Gortex bivvy was dryer but still "pretty cold"
> through the night.
> Okay I know this is not scientific, so all those on this list that
> get their bloomers in a bunch easily don't need to tell me the flaws
> in my experience. The Tyvex has joined my fairly minimal pack gear,
> and I suggest you give it a try. Plan to rumple up the Tyvex after
> you cut it to size until it takes on the soft silky texture. It does
> not effect the properties and makes it more comfortable, easier to
> handle and quieter.
> BTW, I'm convinced it's strong enough to act as a hammock, but I
> haven't tried a long-term test. I'll let you know the results.
> /\james
>
>
>
> __,




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Last night, Scott Thybony gave a presentation in Flagstaff on his new
book, "The Incredible Grand Canyon."  It is full of short stories
about all kinds of canyon people, places and events.  Great stuff.
Most of you probably have another of Scott's books - the guide to
inner canyon hiking.  The book is literally just off the presses, and
can be found at the Grand Canyon Association site:
http://www.grandcanyonassociation.org/grand_canyon_bookstore_featured.html

Scott will also be giving a presentation up at the canyon tonight, in
the Shrine of the Ages, in case anyone is close and able to go.

Dennis Foster
Flagstaff, AZ

Can anyone give me an up to date route description on the route from
Tiyo point down to Shiva saddle. I hope to spend some time in Dragon
and Crystal in early summer and would appreciate any advice and
information this group may have. I have read Steck's description and
have heard that the route is very brushy and not the easiest to
follow. Thanks

Bill

I use a sheet bend in the corners.  I've found that taping and/or
punching a hole in the material will only cause it to shred.

50mph winds would put most 3-season tents to the test.
--Craig

> James,
>
> How do you attach your guylines?
>
> TYVEK is breathable.  But  "breathable" is relative.
>
> I spent a week in a TYVEK burrito one night.  The 50+ mph wind broke
the
> packing tape guyloops holding the TYVEK tarp.  I grabbed it an rolled.
>
> I have a box of TYVEK pants that weighs 2.2 oz.
>
> Dick Matthews
> "If everything seems to be going well you have obviously overlooked
> something."
> --Steven Wright

I have both the commercial grade and house Tyvek, and they seem to work fine.
The House wrap is easier to come by and you can get it at Lowels, Home Depot,
etc. I have seen 36" 42" and 15' rolls. I tried the "commercial" wrap because
a contractor I know gave me some, it seems a little bit heavier with
identical results.

You can try and put holes in the corner but the best method to secure the
ends is to twist the corner into a pencil shape and tie a sheet bend. This
distributes the strain across the sheet and is very secure. The Tyvek regains
it's
shape as soon as you untie the knot. I use the burrito technique to roll up in
it without concern of suffocation. I have tried to breath with a tightly held
bag of (soft) Tyvek secure around my head and did fine. Slightly labored at
first till I got over the idea but clearly passing air back and forth from
within the space. Embarrassing routine if you try this, so do it at home so your
friends don't see you.

If you have a Tyvek envelope (such as at work) do a material test on it and I
think you'll be surprised in its strength, water resistance and breathability.

/\james<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> See what's new
at http://www.aol.com</HTML>

Anything unusual conditions on the Bright Angel or South Kiabab trails
this weekend?

thanks

I wish to thank all those who responded and especially Drifter who
replied by email.  Unfortunately, when I replied, the email would not
go through...cool handle Drifter.  Someday I'll read my Monkey Wrench
Gang book.

I probably didn't make myself clear because what I was trying to
determine is how you tarp guys stay warm in cold weather.  What I
discovered, I think, is a tarp is a warm weather friend but no
protection against wind on a cold night in a bag.

That was the answer I was looking for.  Two years ago, my wife was
kind enough to buy one of the new Black Diamond tents for me for
Christmas and I see it as the best alternative.  Single walled and
weighing in at 3 pounds 2 oz without stakes.

I also appreciate the Tyvek discussion.  I know my knots and know
Tyvek and believe that a sheet bend would work dandy.  Another
solution is to take a small smooth stone, enclose it in the Tyvek and
then loop your guyouts to the bundle although I believe the sheet bend
would obviously give less stress.  But if you're knot-challenged...

For several May/June trips to GC , I used a tarp and bivy (BD
Lightsabre and OR Bug Bivy). I could just never get really
comfortable in these bivys. Tried without the bivys but things
crawling across me at night sometimes woke me up. I acquired a
Double Rainbow for future trips since it is only 2.5 lbs and has the
space of the Taj Mahal. The regular Rainbow was a half pound less
but I wanted the extra door for cross ventilation.

Cheers ... Tim


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Edmondson"
<winejerk@...> wrote:
>
> I wish to thank all those who responded and especially Drifter who
> replied by email.  Unfortunately, when I replied, the email would
not
> go through...cool handle Drifter.  Someday I'll read my Monkey
Wrench
> Gang book.
>
> I probably didn't make myself clear because what I was trying to
> determine is how you tarp guys stay warm in cold weather.  What I
> discovered, I think, is a tarp is a warm weather friend but no
> protection against wind on a cold night in a bag.
>
> That was the answer I was looking for.  Two years ago, my wife was
> kind enough to buy one of the new Black Diamond tents for me for
> Christmas and I see it as the best alternative.  Single walled and
> weighing in at 3 pounds 2 oz without stakes.
>
> I also appreciate the Tyvek discussion.  I know my knots and know
> Tyvek and believe that a sheet bend would work dandy.  Another
> solution is to take a small smooth stone, enclose it in the Tyvek
and
> then loop your guyouts to the bundle although I believe the sheet
bend
> would obviously give less stress.  But if you're knot-challenged...
>