The guy has a way with words.



In a message dated 11/23/09 19:38:05 US Mountain Standard Time,
blues412002@... writes:
What a story teller! Gawdamighty, makes me want to forsake everything and become
a canyon hobo!

Tim Osburn, Head Mechanic, Ralph Spoilsport Motors.
Home of Fine, Old Volkswagens and....Grand Canyon Nut.






________________________________
From: oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...>
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 5:33:27 PM
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Racetrack Hollow (sic) and explain how you
got there!


Those are the two cruxes of the trip.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent
those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with anything on the
internet, the information presented must be viewed with a critical eye. Some of
it may be questionable, and some is downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Boom boom,

Thank you for your poetic and vivid summary. You share Harvey's gift of
squeezing the Canyon into a little ball, but letting the den of rattlers snake
out between your fingers.

We've done the portion of the river route from Kanab to Tapeats (also have a
Tapeats story)  Also have checked out the Esplanade by Timps, just looking
across while descending Crazy Jug.

We were thinking of going down from Stairway to Toroweap combining river and
esplanade, and also yearn to link up Crazy Jug with Swamp Point.  We had thought
to access Muav Saddle via Saddle Canyon, but your route (except for the
manzanita part) sounds interesting.

So, for me, probably two separate hikes.  Few would choose to cover the river
between the mouth of Kanab and Deer Creek more than once.

Going back to my maps and will have more questions.

I gather you did it in a single push with only a cache at Surprise Valley...
must have been an epic hike.

Alan


In a message dated 11/23/09 16:37:16 US Mountain Standard Time,
boomboommccoy3@... writes:
Those are the two cruxes of the trip.

We took river route the entire way from Toroweap to Kanab Creek.  It was not the
easiest way to do it.  With plenty of water available, the real difficulties
were scree puzzles with enigmatic solutions, tamarisk, acacia mimosa, other
assorted, a plethora of other begrudgingly yielding species of brush and
blistering heat.  The biggest obstacle of all was a huge rattlesnake den (three
or four dozen of them spread out along the only feasible path for about two
hundred feet under the tamarisk canopy.  No way around them but to walk
carefully and respectfully.  A few of them buzzed half-heartedly within striking
distance, but we made it through, suffering nothing more than a temporary
depletion of our adrenalin supply.  We took time out for a great celebration
when we got back on to another tough scree slope.  We had no idea if the route
went, and less an idea of what we were going to do if it didn't.  We left Ray's
truck at Swamp Point and had a friend take us from there to Toroweap.  It was
not uncommon back then for there to be less than 100 visitors all year and most
likely that no one besides river runners would be there for weeks in the summer.
I know many people have wondered whether the river route is possible.  Well, it
is if your dumb enough to keep going when it is sensible to turn back, but
that's one of the greatest beauties of the Canyon though, isn't it.

We took the route up Crazy Jug which is across from Timp Canyon.  Except for the
ball bearings for footing and poor handholds up break at the bottom of the Muav,
it was just some non-technical route finding and a scramble up Crazy Jug,
followed by manzanita trudgery on the Esplanade over to Swamp Point.  I don't
know how the route is today, but it was always hard to keep pressing on with
those heartless thornapples grabbing you, untying your shoes, ripping your
clothes and equipment and just being plain near inpenetrable.  We placed only
one cache at Surprise Valley, but we scored large containers of peanut butter,
jelly and flour from river runners at the beach at Tapeats (a whole other
story.)  I only wish I could find the time to keep doing those explorations. 
Work keeps me pretty busy and out of the country these days.

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, jastcaird@... wrote:
>
>
> Hakatai,
>
> I'd love to hear how you went from Toroweap to Swamp Point.  I am intereseted
in both ends of that jaunt.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...>
> To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:06 am
> Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Racetrack Hollow (sic)
>
>
>
> 'm pretty certain you are talking about the route from Sowats Point to
> wagunt Hollow, out near Racetrack Knoll.  The Supai is pretty easy,
> lthough there are a few short (10 or 20 foot pitches) that can be a
> ittle challenging depending on your climbing abilities.  I would
> magine, that since you are exploring out there,  you are plenty up for
> he challenge.  When Ray and I passed through on our 1977 summer trip
> rom Toroweap to Swamp Point, I don't recall it being anything unusual,
> onsidering where we came from.  If you took three or four 30' x 5mm
> opes you could just about skip down it, then pull them on the way back.
> ring a clog or jumar for a portable handhold and that's all the
> ardware you would need (none needed going down) for bombproof
> onfidence coming up.  We drank the water straight back then, but if we
> ad been able to afford the $100 (about $500 at today's dollar and only
> ood for 5 gallons) an ion exchange pump back then, we definitely would
> ave used it.  Pretty brackish.   Note this is 30 year old info, but I
> an't imagine it getting radically different.  Besides, someone should
> ome up with fresher intelligence and I would be surprised if no one had
> mproved the route since then.
> Good Choice, Good Luck!
> "If we eat all our provisions now, we shall certainly have less to
> arry!"  from the comic strip "Pogo" sometime in the 1970's (Thanks for
> he quote Frank; I've lived by it often!)
>
> -- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bordasch@> wrote:
>
>  I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from
> he Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell
> e how technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but
> on't want to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take
> ebbing. If anyone out there has experience with this route, please let
> e know. Thanks. Bob B.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent
> hose of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with anything on the
> nternet, the information presented must be viewed with a critical eye. Some of
> t may be questionable, and some is downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
>    Individual Email | Traditional
>    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




------------------------------------

The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent
those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with anything on the
internet, the information presented must be viewed with a critical eye. Some of
it may be questionable, and some is downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for sharing that with the group!  I too was amazed at the number of sandy
stretches of beach along the river bottom.  I forgot that Glen Canyon Dam didn't
go into operation until 1966.

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "driftersmith" <drifter_smith@...>
wrote:
>
> Check this out:
>
>
http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/videos/Jetting-Through-the-Grand-Canyon.ht\
ml
>
> - Drifter
>

What a story teller! Gawdamighty, makes me want to forsake everything and become
a canyon hobo!

Tim Osburn, Head Mechanic, Ralph Spoilsport Motors.
Home of Fine, Old Volkswagens and....Grand Canyon Nut.






________________________________
From: oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...>
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 5:33:27 PM
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Racetrack Hollow (sic) and explain how you
got there!


Those are the two cruxes of the trip.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Those are the two cruxes of the trip.

We took river route the entire way from Toroweap to Kanab Creek.  It was not the
easiest way to do it.  With plenty of water available, the real difficulties
were scree puzzles with enigmatic solutions, tamarisk, acacia mimosa, other
assorted, a plethora of other begrudgingly yielding species of brush and
blistering heat.  The biggest obstacle of all was a huge rattlesnake den (three
or four dozen of them spread out along the only feasible path for about two
hundred feet under the tamarisk canopy.  No way around them but to walk
carefully and respectfully.  A few of them buzzed half-heartedly within striking
distance, but we made it through, suffering nothing more than a temporary
depletion of our adrenalin supply.  We took time out for a great celebration
when we got back on to another tough scree slope.  We had no idea if the route
went, and less an idea of what we were going to do if it didn't.  We left Ray's
truck at Swamp Point and had a friend take us from there to Toroweap.  It was
not uncommon back then for there to be less than 100 visitors all year and most
likely that no one besides river runners would be there for weeks in the summer.
I know many people have wondered whether the river route is possible.  Well, it
is if your dumb enough to keep going when it is sensible to turn back, but
that's one of the greatest beauties of the Canyon though, isn't it.

We took the route up Crazy Jug which is across from Timp Canyon.  Except for the
ball bearings for footing and poor handholds up break at the bottom of the Muav,
it was just some non-technical route finding and a scramble up Crazy Jug,
followed by manzanita trudgery on the Esplanade over to Swamp Point.  I don't
know how the route is today, but it was always hard to keep pressing on with
those heartless thornapples grabbing you, untying your shoes, ripping your
clothes and equipment and just being plain near inpenetrable.  We placed only
one cache at Surprise Valley, but we scored large containers of peanut butter,
jelly and flour from river runners at the beach at Tapeats (a whole other
story.)  I only wish I could find the time to keep doing those explorations. 
Work keeps me pretty busy and out of the country these days.

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, jastcaird@... wrote:
>
>
> Hakatai,
>
> I'd love to hear how you went from Toroweap to Swamp Point.  I am intereseted
in both ends of that jaunt.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...>
> To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:06 am
> Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Racetrack Hollow (sic)
>
>
>
> 'm pretty certain you are talking about the route from Sowats Point to
> wagunt Hollow, out near Racetrack Knoll.  The Supai is pretty easy,
> lthough there are a few short (10 or 20 foot pitches) that can be a
> ittle challenging depending on your climbing abilities.  I would
> magine, that since you are exploring out there,  you are plenty up for
> he challenge.  When Ray and I passed through on our 1977 summer trip
> rom Toroweap to Swamp Point, I don't recall it being anything unusual,
> onsidering where we came from.  If you took three or four 30' x 5mm
> opes you could just about skip down it, then pull them on the way back.
> ring a clog or jumar for a portable handhold and that's all the
> ardware you would need (none needed going down) for bombproof
> onfidence coming up.  We drank the water straight back then, but if we
> ad been able to afford the $100 (about $500 at today's dollar and only
> ood for 5 gallons) an ion exchange pump back then, we definitely would
> ave used it.  Pretty brackish.   Note this is 30 year old info, but I
> an't imagine it getting radically different.  Besides, someone should
> ome up with fresher intelligence and I would be surprised if no one had
> mproved the route since then.
> Good Choice, Good Luck!
> "If we eat all our provisions now, we shall certainly have less to
> arry!"  from the comic strip "Pogo" sometime in the 1970's (Thanks for
> he quote Frank; I've lived by it often!)
>
> -- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bordasch@> wrote:
>
>  I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from
> he Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell
> e how technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but
> on't want to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take
> ebbing. If anyone out there has experience with this route, please let
> e know. Thanks. Bob B.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent
> hose of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with anything on the
> nternet, the information presented must be viewed with a critical eye. Some of
> t may be questionable, and some is downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
>    Individual Email | Traditional
>    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks for that neat video link.  allen

E. Allen Davis
starstorm151@...

"M'Illumino              "I am enlightened
D'Immenso"              by the immensity."

    -Ungaretti               -Ungaretti

On Nov 22, 2009, at 1:15 PM, driftersmith wrote:

> Check this out:
>
>
http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/videos/Jetting-Through-the-Grand-Canyon.ht\
ml
>
> - Drifter
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Now that we are past most of grumpy parts, I think it's more fun to comment
about why AZ hikers are 'overrepresented'... Are we?... maybe not. I recall from
past statistical breakouts that the number of GC hikers from Illinois and
California is obviously large, but the number of GC hikers from New York is
noticeably small (to size). Some people relocate to northern AZ for access to
GC. If your main interests are publishing, art, theater, finance, you may want
to relocate to NY. My family moved to AZ when I was very young so it was not my
choice, but I am very attached to the SW, desert/canyon landscape, and GC. I
have traveled many other places and basically find them to be excessively green,
wet, and 'closed-in' -- fun for just awhile.

The proportion of AZ (and other nearby) hikers pulling permits for GC relates to
self-selection as well as convenience and cost, and may even be a very close
match to the proportion of our interest.

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Chris F" <crforsyth@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> A few comments... unfortunately the data provided by the park on this web page
is neither complete nor perfect.
> Chris
>
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Ferris" <BillFerris@> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>

Thanks, Drifter, that was great. The only thing I could definitely recognize was
Vulcan's Anvil above Lava Falls. I sure couldn't recognize all those sandy
beaches!

Dave Marcus



--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "driftersmith" <drifter_smith@...>
wrote:
>
> Check this out:
>
>
http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/videos/Jetting-Through-the-Grand-Canyon.ht\
ml
>
> - Drifter
>

Hakatai,

I'd love to hear how you went from Toroweap to Swamp Point.  I am intereseted in
both ends of that jaunt.

Alan



-----Original Message-----
From: oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...>
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:06 am
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Racetrack Hollow (sic)



'm pretty certain you are talking about the route from Sowats Point to
wagunt Hollow, out near Racetrack Knoll.  The Supai is pretty easy,
lthough there are a few short (10 or 20 foot pitches) that can be a
ittle challenging depending on your climbing abilities.  I would
magine, that since you are exploring out there,  you are plenty up for
he challenge.  When Ray and I passed through on our 1977 summer trip
rom Toroweap to Swamp Point, I don't recall it being anything unusual,
onsidering where we came from.  If you took three or four 30' x 5mm
opes you could just about skip down it, then pull them on the way back.
ring a clog or jumar for a portable handhold and that's all the
ardware you would need (none needed going down) for bombproof
onfidence coming up.  We drank the water straight back then, but if we
ad been able to afford the $100 (about $500 at today's dollar and only
ood for 5 gallons) an ion exchange pump back then, we definitely would
ave used it.  Pretty brackish.   Note this is 30 year old info, but I
an't imagine it getting radically different.  Besides, someone should
ome up with fresher intelligence and I would be surprised if no one had
mproved the route since then.
Good Choice, Good Luck!
"If we eat all our provisions now, we shall certainly have less to
arry!"  from the comic strip "Pogo" sometime in the 1970's (Thanks for
he quote Frank; I've lived by it often!)

-- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bordasch@...> wrote:

  I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from
he Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell
e how technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but
on't want to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take
ebbing. If anyone out there has experience with this route, please let
e know. Thanks. Bob B.



------------------------------------
The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily represent
hose of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with anything on the
nternet, the information presented must be viewed with a critical eye. Some of
t may be questionable, and some is downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
    Individual Email | Traditional
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the info.  Looks too technical for me.  I've been through Indian
Hollow several times and wouldn't hesitate to do something more difficult than
that, but not several long pitches requiring a climbing rope.  I'm just trying
to come up with an interesting route around and through that general area.  I
am thinking of hiking around Fishtail Mesa this spring (had to abandon plans
last month), and thought it would be nice to access Kanab below Jumpup.  No big
deal, there are lots of alternate routes.  Thanks.

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Robert LaRoche <rlaroche1@...> wrote:


From: Robert LaRoche <rlaroche1@...>
Subject: RE: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Racetrack Hollow
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 1:00 PM


 



Bob,

Tried going down race track hollow with just some webbing and short rope
about 10 years ago. Made it past the first drop by down climbing rope my bud
was anchoring and looked at the 2nd drop which was into a slot pool. It is
a canyoneering route and requires several raps. I have also hiked it quite
a ways from the bottom and got into some water before being rejected. I
noted webbing anchors from previous descents.

Going down Indian hollow which is next to racetrack is fairly straight
forward except for the pool that Steck describes, which may or may not be
there depending on recent rains.

Bob L.

From: Grand_Canyon_ Hikers@yahoogrou ps.com
[mailto:Grand_Canyon_ Hikers@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 11:22 AM
To: Grand_Canyon_ Hikers@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_ Hikers] Racetrack Hollow

I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from the
Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell me how
technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but don't want
to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take webbing. If
anyone out there has experience with this route, please let me know. Thanks.
Bob B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The canyon/route I'm talking about is SW of Racetrack Knoll.  It connects the
Esplanade NW of the most northerly point of Fishtail Mesa with Kanab Creek. 
The canyon generally runs NW.  It enters Kanab about 1 mile below the mouth of
Jumpup.

--- On Mon, 11/23/09, oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...> wrote:


From: oldhakataihobo <boomboommccoy3@...>
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Racetrack Hollow (sic)
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 2:06 AM


 




I'm pretty certain you are talking about the route from Sowats Point to
Kwagunt Hollow, out near Racetrack Knoll. The Supai is pretty easy,
although there are a few short (10 or 20 foot pitches) that can be a
little challenging depending on your climbing abilities. I would
imagine, that since you are exploring out there, you are plenty up for
the challenge. When Ray and I passed through on our 1977 summer trip
from Toroweap to Swamp Point, I don't recall it being anything unusual,
considering where we came from. If you took three or four 30' x 5mm
ropes you could just about skip down it, then pull them on the way back.
Bring a clog or jumar for a portable handhold and that's all the
hardware you would need (none needed going down) for bombproof
confidence coming up. We drank the water straight back then, but if we
had been able to afford the $100 (about $500 at today's dollar and only
good for 5 gallons) an ion exchange pump back then, we definitely would
have used it. Pretty brackish. Note this is 30 year old info, but I
can't imagine it getting radically different. Besides, someone should
come up with fresher intelligence and I would be surprised if no one had
improved the route since then.

Good Choice, Good Luck!

"If we eat all our provisions now, we shall certainly have less to
carry!" from the comic strip "Pogo" sometime in the 1970's (Thanks for
the quote Frank; I've lived by it often!)

--- In Grand_Canyon_ Hikers@yahoogrou ps.com, "Bob" <bordasch@.. .> wrote:
>
> I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from
the Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell
me how technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but
don't want to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take
webbing. If anyone out there has experience with this route, please let
me know. Thanks. Bob B.
>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

New Hance to Grandview is also a good one for 4 days.

Hi, Eugene.

Down SK and up to Sumner Wash in one day is quite doable.  I have done this
three times.  To make things easier on my body, I have most of my stuff duffled
down to Phantom.  Start down SK real early, so that you are down to Phantom by
10:00AM, pickup your duffel and repack your stuff, hang out for a few hours,
later in the afternoon hike on up to Sumner Wash for your dry camp.

Bob

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "eaufdembrink" <eaufdembrink@...>
wrote:
>
  I am planning a backpacking trip for late April. Tentative plans are for
> the trip to go down Kaibab then over into the Clear Creek area.  I am
> looking for some expert advice on any trip specifics - i.e. can one make
> it down the Kaibab over to the open camping area in AK7 in one day?  And
> then as I am locked into dates what would be a good suggested
> alternative hike?  Would Hermit trail to Tonto and then to Bright Angel
> be a reasonable alternative?  We have 4-5 days - either Monday -Friday
> or Tuesday - Friday for the trip.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eugene
>

Bob,



Tried going down race track hollow with just some webbing and short rope
about 10 years ago. Made it past the first drop by down climbing rope my bud
was anchoring and looked at the 2nd drop which was into a slot pool.   It is
a canyoneering route and requires several raps.  I have also hiked it quite
a ways from the bottom and got into some water before being rejected.  I
noted webbing anchors from previous descents.



Going down Indian hollow which is next to racetrack is fairly straight
forward except for the pool  that Steck describes, which may or may not be
there depending on recent rains.



Bob L.







From: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 11:22 AM
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Racetrack Hollow





I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from the
Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell me how
technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but don't want
to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take webbing. If
anyone out there has experience with this route, please let me know. Thanks.
Bob B.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess I can live with this for getting into YOUR ARIZONA GRAND CANYON.

I looked forward to the good excuse to take a couple days on the South Rim and
day hike.

Sadly, we must suspect time will come when it will get really hard to score.

Where did all these people come from?

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Shioshya" <shioshya@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/permit_change.htm
>

Rob,

Based on your previous advice, we have been considering both the SK straight out
or the lower BA to Tonto to SK out. It depends on the weather and how
adventurous Mary Jane is feeling.

My thinking is that the extra 4-5 miles for the second option will be easier
than negotiating the deep steps and mule remnants on the upper part of BA.

I'm very familiar with this trio of trails. I have camped only at BGC but been
there 4 times and have done 5 day runs to the river and back out using several
combinations. Of course the term 'running' is relative on the way back up.

My daughter, Mary Jane carried a 10lb pack down the SK when she was 10yo, in
July of '05. This will be her 2nd hike at GC.

Where the tonto crosses Pipe Creek is one of my favorite places on earth. Never
fails to put things back into the proper perspective.

We are planning some day hikes from BA Campground and I'm hoping Ribbon Falls
puts on a show for us.

I enjoyed your website and will be trying some of your posted recipes this week,
to test for canyon meals.

Thanks,

Tom Mikesell


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Wilderness" <wildvagabond@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>   You may wish to consider part SK and part BA on your climb out - if you have
time for a bit more distance and exploration.  Why?  Well, this would allow you
to cook and stock water, and also enjoy a bit of the Tonto Trail.  Note that the
water is shut off (Winterized) above Ind Garden on the BA.
>   Come up the bottom part of the SK to The Tipoff.  Pause for a pano or video
at The Tipoff (the area just prior to, below, reaching the emergency phone at
the Tipoff).  Here is one example:
>
>
http://wildernessvagabond.com/gctontoe4-09/compressedGrand%20Canyon%20panorama%2\
0from%20tipoff%20-%20full.jpg
>
> This, above, file is from the Grapevine Galleria report, seen here:
> http://wildernessvagabond.com/gctontoe4-09/gctontoe4-09.htm
>
>   See a map in the above report.  Enlarge it to see your SK-BA loopo options. 
A direct link to this map is:
>
>
http://wildernessvagabond.com/gctontoe4-09/gpsvis-GC-tonto-east-s-kaibab-grandvi\
ew-09.html
>
>    Continue across the Tonto, hiking West, pausing at Pipe Spring (good water
here - yet must be filtered/treated) for a luxurious lounge before lilting into
Indian Garden for lunch.  Continue out the BA to the top.
>   Of course, you could start up the BA to IG, then walk the Tonto and go out
the SK.  Recently, we found the lower section of the BA more enjoyable - and of
course the traffic is less on the lower section.
>   There is a map in this brief report that shows the options in the upper part
of this venture:
> http://wildernessvagabond.com/flag07/flag07.htm#tonto-time
>
>   Happy hiking, rob
>
> --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mikesell" <tomrunr@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> > Thanks for the insight. My main reason for coming out on BA was water at IG
and a place for us to cook a hot lunch, but that might be canceled out by having
to climb those worn-out mud-hole stairs that are probably only getting worse
with increased mule traffic from the SK.
> >
> > Nothing worse than a foot-deep, half frozen, mule-piss mud hole…
> >
> > Besides, I always end up with a pocket full of other peoples litter, picked
on that last mile. The "I went to the Grand Canyon and left a candy bar wrapper"
crowd.
> >
> > So we carry some extra water on the hike out, cest la vie. It will be worth
it to have a clean trail on the SK.
> >
> > Thanks again.
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Wilderness" <wildvagabond@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >   Congratulations on your New Year event in the GC!
> > >   Dave R. and I recently came up the S. Kaibab (Nov. 7) and found it to be
in most excellent condition - a huge contrast to the bombed out mess of the BA
(big steps, huge depressions).  The trail crew was camping near the Tipoff, yet
we did not encounter any delays or obstacles along the trail.  It appears that
the crew is still working on the trail.  No guesses about what the status will
be in late December, however.
> > >   Happy hiking and cheerio, Rob of the WV:
> > >
> > > http://www.wildernessvagabond.com/
> > >
> > > --- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mikesell" <tomrunr@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My daughter and I are camping at Bright Angel Campground for New
> > > > Years Eve and the night before and after.
> > > >
> > > > We were hoping to decend South Kaibab on 12/30 and out on Bright Angel
on 1/2.
> > > >
> > > > Any recent reports on the maintanence on the South Kaibab? I know they
restricted mules but is it a mess or will the maint pause during winter months.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I'm pretty certain you are talking about the route from Sowats Point to
Kwagunt Hollow, out near Racetrack Knoll.  The Supai is pretty easy,
although there are a few short (10 or 20 foot pitches) that can be a
little challenging depending on your climbing abilities.  I would
imagine, that since you are exploring out there,  you are plenty up for
the challenge.  When Ray and I passed through on our 1977 summer trip
from Toroweap to Swamp Point, I don't recall it being anything unusual,
considering where we came from.  If you took three or four 30' x 5mm
ropes you could just about skip down it, then pull them on the way back.
Bring a clog or jumar for a portable handhold and that's all the
hardware you would need (none needed going down) for bombproof
confidence coming up.  We drank the water straight back then, but if we
had been able to afford the $100 (about $500 at today's dollar and only
good for 5 gallons) an ion exchange pump back then, we definitely would
have used it.  Pretty brackish.   Note this is 30 year old info, but I
can't imagine it getting radically different.  Besides, someone should
come up with fresher intelligence and I would be surprised if no one had
improved the route since then.

Good Choice, Good Luck!

"If we eat all our provisions now, we shall certainly have less to
carry!"  from the comic strip "Pogo" sometime in the 1970's (Thanks for
the quote Frank; I've lived by it often!)


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bordasch@...> wrote:
>
> I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from
the Esplanade to Kanab Creek. If any of you are out there, can you tell
me how technical it is? I would like to use this route this spring, but
don't want to carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take
webbing. If anyone out there has experience with this route, please let
me know. Thanks. Bob B.
>

Eugene,
Yes it can be done.  If you are fast you could get all the way to Clear Creek on
the first day.  Otherwise, as Doug suggests, you can dry camp somewhere along
the trail, Sumner Wash or beyond.

Unless you are fast enough to get all the way to Clear Creek in a single day, I
suggest you plan five days rather than four.  The reason is, if you need two
days to get to Clear Creek, you will surely also need two days to get out.  If
you only have four days, where is your day to enjoy the Clear Creek area?

I just recently returned from a six-day (five-night) trip which included three
nights at Clear Creek.  That gave me two full "layover" days to explore Clear
Creek, which I used to explore down to the river on one day, and up to Ariel
Falls on the second day.  And, I had time on the morning of my departure day to
explore for three hours up the east arm of Clear Creek.  With all that, I am
still eager to get back there and see more of this beautiful area.

It would be a shame to only have time to get there and then have to leave right
away!!

Chris



--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "eaufdembrink" <eaufdembrink@...>
wrote:
>
> I am planning a backpacking trip for late April. Tentative plans are for
> the trip to go down Kaibab then over into the Clear Creek area.  I am
> looking for some expert advice on any trip specifics - i.e. can one make
> it down the Kaibab over to the open camping area in AK7 in one day?  And
> then as I am locked into dates what would be a good suggested
> alternative hike?  Would Hermit trail to Tonto and then to Bright Angel
> be a reasonable alternative?  We have 4-5 days - either Monday -Friday
> or Tuesday - Friday for the trip.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eugene
>

Doug,
I didn't get the Logan's Run reference (did you?).  I didn't intend to imply a
value judgement one way or the other in noting the percentage of commercial
guide permits.  Just that it was less than I'd expected.  Previous discussion on
this board seemed to equate the "first day problem" to a problem of commercial
guides crowding private hikers out of the desirable Corridor slots.  Now we know
that they have plenty of company in the form of local private hikers, all
angling for permits to the detriment of out-of-state hikers.


Dennis,
I think you might be wrong about New Years Day.  I know hikers who have not only
gone up on Jan 1, but have gone up on Dec 29-30 to get a good number for the
morning of Jan 1.

Considering May is the second-most popular month and has a high rate of permit
denial, it would be quite surprising if private hikers and commercial guides did
not "play the game" on January 1 just as any other high-demand month.

Chris



--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> OK, maybe I'm too dense to get the joke. Arizona and commercial
> permits should equal all first-day permits? -- I don't see that, there
> can be non-commercials from other places at the window. We know for a
> fact that people do this.
>
> Is something 'unfair' and needs action only if it affects a majority?
> That would be exactly the result for a strict democracy, which is
> exactly why I'm glad we don't have one. The important question which I
> do not know the answer to, would be -- What is the relation between
> permit requests and permits issued? If guides are 10% of requests for
> permits and get 30% issued, then that would be a cheat to those in the
> 90%. I would even say it is a statistically significant cheat and
> focusing on a convenient low-ball value like 'only 30%' can be a cheap
> tactic for miss-direction.
>
> Exactly why doesn't anyone show up on Jan 1 for April permits? Just
> 'assumed' because it's New-Years? If your business needs permits to
> sell hikes in April there's no reason to think everyone will put
> partying before business. Dennis, give us some facts not speculation.
>
> -- DN
>
> On Nov 20, 2009, at 23:24, DennisF wrote:
>
> > Hi Chris,
> >  In fact, if I am reading the info correctly, less than 30% of the
> > first day permits went to commercial guides.  The pie chart show
> > Arizona permits and guides, totaling 607, but the text states that
> > 696 permits were given on First Day.  Hmm, suddenly I want to watch
> > Logan's Run.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> > P.S. - Another question.  It looks like there are only two months
> > where this is a big issue, as you noted - May and October.  I know
> > that there is a big crowd there on June 1st, waiting to get October
> > permits.  But, is there really anyone there on Jan. 1st?  I don't
> > think so.  Those are probably 95% faxed requests.  Then, the only
> > problem is for June 1st requests for October hikes.  So, why not
> > just impose this new system in June and leave all the other months
> > the way they are now?  Or, does one size really have to fit all?
>

Bill,
A few comments... unfortunately the data provided by the park on this web page
is neither complete nor perfect.
Chris


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Ferris" <BillFerris@...>
wrote:

[snip]

>
> Drilling further into the 2008 stats, 696 permits were issued on the first of
the initial month to walk-in applicants. Of those 696 permits issued, 536 (77%)
were issued to Arizonans. Of those 536 permits, 71 (13.2%) were issued to
Flagstaff non-commercial guides and 201 (37.5%) were issued to commercial
guides; most of whom were Flagstaff residents.
>


The paragraph states the 536 number but the chart does not support it.  Titled
"Permits to Arizona Locals" the pie slices total 607.  That would imply that 89
non-Arizonans received first-day permits (if the correct total is 696).

One slice is labelled "Commercial Guides (most are from Flagstaff)".  It's
possible some of the commercial guides are not from Arizona but the chart
doesn't tell us this, nor if they are, whether they are included in the data
point of 201 first-day guide permits.

Also it's not clear this chart is for 2008, which means you can't
cross-correlate it with the other chart.  The paragraphs begins with the words
"This year ...".  We are almost at the end of 2009, so it's not clear from which
year the data are derived.



>
> It's interesting to note that Flagstaff represents 0.9% of the total Arizona
population. So, Arizonans are overrepresented by about 1,500% with respect to
the total number of backcountry permits issued in 2008 to US applicants. And
within Arizona, Flagstaff residents were overrepresented to a similar degree.
>


I was disappointed you didn't calculate the percentage by which Chinese hikers
are under-represented.   ;-)


>
> Of course, one needs to be careful when seeking to understand why Arizonans
are overrepresented to such a high degree. It would be a mistake to assume this
must be the result of an unfair system.
>


I think it's pretty obvious Arizonans represent a higher proportion of first-day
permits because geographic proximity makes it less costly and less inconvenient
to travel to the park to secure a permit.  We represent a higher percentage of
total permits because geographic proximity makes the park a convenient
recreation destination, as you point out.  The former might reflect an unfair
advantage, the second, a "fair" advantage.


>
> Also of note, when initial month permit requests totaled 230 or fewer, none
were denied.
>


On my screen the denial number for February appears to be non-zero.


>
> Looking at the numbers, I am now even more convinced that the real, long term
issue facing us is not inequity in the application process--although that is a
genuine concern. Rather, the real issue is the lack of available campsites in
the Corridor and adjoining use areas. As demand for these and other use areas
continues to grow, this problem will only get worse. This should be a priority
issue addressed in the new Backcountry Management Plan.
>


You are not the first to suggest that demand for backcountry permits is growing
but nobody yet has provided data to back this up.  It would be interesting to
know whether it's true.  However, even if it's not, kudos to the park for
working to improve the system.

I assume we will be drowning in data when it comes time to review the
Backcountry Management Plan.  I'm just a little disappointed that the press
release suggests this may play out over a period of years.


>
> Bill Ferris
> Flagstaff
> http://www.gcadventure.com
>


Bill, despite my quibbles, yours is a thorough and thought-provoking analysis. 
Thanks!

Chris

Yes, you have a feasible plan in mind. You can easily get down SK to
BA, hang around a bit, and hike up to Sumnrer Wash with water supply
for overnight and on to CC next day. I've done it often.

On Nov 22, 2009, at 19:50, eaufdembrink wrote:

> I am planning a backpacking trip for late April. Tentative plans are
> for
> the trip to go down Kaibab then over into the Clear Creek area.  I am
> looking for some expert advice on any trip specifics - i.e. can one
> make
> it down the Kaibab over to the open camping area in AK7 in one day?
> And
> then as I am locked into dates what would be a good suggested
> alternative hike?  Would Hermit trail to Tonto and then to Bright
> Angel
> be a reasonable alternative?  We have 4-5 days - either Monday -Friday
> or Tuesday - Friday for the trip.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eugene
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> The views and personal opinions expressed here do not necessarily
> represent those of anyone else on the group. Additionally, as with
> anything on the internet, the information presented must be viewed
> with a critical eye. Some of it may be questionable, and some is
> downright bull.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Interesting thorough analysis from Bill F and 2 main points in comment
response.

1) good analysis.

2) the limitation on campsites and permits in the Corridor areas is
entirely a resource/impact issue. If the waste system BA Camp could be
improved then there would be more permits issued even now. This is for
sure a legitimate issue for future planning. But we can expect that
demand will continue to exceed resource/impact factors, and fairness
in issuing permits will also continue to be a legitimate issue.

Hi Doug,
    Yes, there are non-commercial first day walk-in permits issued to non-Arizona
residents - 89 according to the web page, or 13% of all first day permits
issued.  Arizonans, outside of the local area, account for 48%, Flagstaff/local
accounts for 10% and commercial guides account for 29%.  There wasn't
information on the number of faxed requests that were accepted/denied on First
Day.
    Instead, there is data on all requests made during the initial month that
were accepted/rejected.  [Of course, requests can continue to be made in later
months, and accepted or denied, but that data is not shown here.]
    My point was that, looking at the accept/reject for the whole initial month,
the only month where the walk-in permit requests seem to have a detectable
effect on the odds of getting a permit via a fax request, is October, which
opens up on June 1st.  I have been to the line on June first, and it is an
event, to say the least.  I don't know how many First Day requests were made for
this October, but I had number 71 and was able to make my itinerary request at
the counter at about 11 a.m. that morning.
    Insofar as May goes, I think it is reasonable to surmise that most of the
requests are made via fax, or walk-ins sometime after the first of January.  We
know that commercial users got 201 total First Day permits.  Even if all of them
were for May, that would be about a quarter of all permits issued in the initial
month.  But, I think that is unreasonable.
    Regardless, I don't see the motivation to change the whole system to address
the "problem" they see in just one, or two, months.

Dennis

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> OK, maybe I'm too dense to get the joke. Arizona and commercial
> permits should equal all first-day permits? -- I don't see that, there
> can be non-commercials from other places at the window. We know for a
> fact that people do this.
>
> Is something 'unfair' and needs action only if it affects a majority?
> That would be exactly the result for a strict democracy, which is
> exactly why I'm glad we don't have one. The important question which I
> do not know the answer to, would be -- What is the relation between
> permit requests and permits issued? If guides are 10% of requests for
> permits and get 30% issued, then that would be a cheat to those in the
> 90%. I would even say it is a statistically significant cheat and
> focusing on a convenient low-ball value like 'only 30%' can be a cheap
> tactic for miss-direction.
>
> Exactly why doesn't anyone show up on Jan 1 for April permits? Just
> 'assumed' because it's New-Years? If your business needs permits to
> sell hikes in April there's no reason to think everyone will put
> partying before business. Dennis, give us some facts not speculation.
>
> -- DN

I am planning a backpacking trip for late April. Tentative plans are for
the trip to go down Kaibab then over into the Clear Creek area.  I am
looking for some expert advice on any trip specifics - i.e. can one make
it down the Kaibab over to the open camping area in AK7 in one day?  And
then as I am locked into dates what would be a good suggested
alternative hike?  Would Hermit trail to Tonto and then to Bright Angel
be a reasonable alternative?  We have 4-5 days - either Monday -Friday
or Tuesday - Friday for the trip.

Thanks,

Eugene

This is awesome.  Thanks for sharing.

-Frank


--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, "driftersmith" <drifter_smith@...>
wrote:
>
> Check this out:
>
>
http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/videos/Jetting-Through-the-Grand-Canyon.ht\
ml
>
> - Drifter
>

As I read the stats on the "Backcountry Permit Change" page
(http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/permit_change.htm ),...

In 2008, U.S. citizens accounted for 88.1% of all backcountry hiking permits
issued. Arizona, which represents about 2% of the total US population,
represented about 30% of the permits issued to US citizens.

The chart labeled, "Requests Considered in the Initial Month," indicates that
roughly 7,570 permit applications were processed during the initial month, with
about 5,420 being approved. According to the 2009 park profile
(http://www.nps.gov/grca/parkmgmt/upload/ParkProfile2009.pdf ), 11,574
backcountry permits were issued in 2008. So, the approximately 5,420 permits
issued during the initial month represents 47% of the total number of permits
issued to backcountry users in 2008.

Drilling further into the 2008 stats, 696 permits were issued on the first of
the initial month to walk-in applicants. Of those 696 permits issued, 536 (77%)
were issued to Arizonans. Of those 536 permits, 71 (13.2%) were issued to
Flagstaff non-commercial guides and 201 (37.5%) were issued to commercial
guides; most of whom were Flagstaff residents.

It's interesting to note that Flagstaff represents 0.9% of the total Arizona
population. So, Arizonans are overrepresented by about 1,500% with respect to
the total number of backcountry permits issued in 2008 to US applicants. And
within Arizona, Flagstaff residents were overrepresented to a similar degree.

Of course, one needs to be careful when seeking to understand why Arizonans are
overrepresented to such a high degree. It would be a mistake to assume this must
be the result of an unfair system. I suspect that it has a lot to do with the
proximity of Grand Canyon. People tend to seek recreational opportunities that
are convenient. For this reason, one would expect far more New Yorkers to
purchase tickets to attend Yankee games. So, it is not surprising that
Arizonans--and Flagstaff residents, in particular--have a high interest in
applying for backcountry permits to hike Grand Canyon.

Also of note, when initial month permit requests totaled 230 or fewer, none were
denied. Of the 410 initial month requests processed for the month of November,
only 20 (<5%) were denied. And here's an interesting comparison: Of the 770
initial month requests for March hikes, 120 (15.6%) were denied. Yet, 210
(29.6%) of the 710 initial month requests for June hikes were denied. I suspect
this reflects a much higher--relatively speaking--demand for Corridor area
campsites during peak summer travel months. May and June are the peak family
vacation months for Americans. And if a significant percentage of permit
applications for these months are made by novice hikers who tend to gravitate
toward Corridor campsites, one would reasonably expect a high rate of denial,
regardless of the method one used to apply for their permit.

Finally, it appears that October is far and away the most popular month for
backcountry hiking in Grand Canyon. It is also the month for which intial month
permit requests have the highest failure rate: Of the 1,520 initial month
requests made for October, about 700 (46%) were denied. It would be interesting
to know how many of those 700 denied permit requests were strictly limited to
the Corridor.

Looking at the numbers, I am now even more convinced that the real, long term
issue facing us is not inequity in the application process--although that is a
genuine concern. Rather, the real issue is the lack of available campsites in
the Corridor and adjoining use areas. As demand for these and other use areas
continues to grow, this problem will only get worse. This should be a priority
issue addressed in the new Backcountry Management Plan.

Bill Ferris
Flagstaff
http://www.gcadventure.com

--- In Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:
>
> OK, maybe I'm too dense to get the joke. Arizona and commercial
> permits should equal all first-day permits? -- I don't see that, there
> can be non-commercials from other places at the window. We know for a
> fact that people do this.
>
> Is something 'unfair' and needs action only if it affects a majority?
> That would be exactly the result for a strict democracy, which is
> exactly why I'm glad we don't have one. The important question which I
> do not know the answer to, would be -- What is the relation between
> permit requests and permits issued? If guides are 10% of requests for
> permits and get 30% issued, then that would be a cheat to those in the
> 90%. I would even say it is a statistically significant cheat and
> focusing on a convenient low-ball value like 'only 30%' can be a cheap
> tactic for miss-direction.
>
> Exactly why doesn't anyone show up on Jan 1 for April permits? Just
> 'assumed' because it's New-Years? If your business needs permits to
> sell hikes in April there's no reason to think everyone will put
> partying before business. Dennis, give us some facts not speculation.
>
> -- DN
>
> On Nov 20, 2009, at 23:24, DennisF wrote:
>
> > Hi Chris,
> >  In fact, if I am reading the info correctly, less than 30% of the
> > first day permits went to commercial guides.  The pie chart show
> > Arizona permits and guides, totaling 607, but the text states that
> > 696 permits were given on First Day.  Hmm, suddenly I want to watch
> > Logan's Run.
> >
> > Dennis
> >
> > P.S. - Another question.  It looks like there are only two months
> > where this is a big issue, as you noted - May and October.  I know
> > that there is a big crowd there on June 1st, waiting to get October
> > permits.  But, is there really anyone there on Jan. 1st?  I don't
> > think so.  Those are probably 95% faxed requests.  Then, the only
> > problem is for June 1st requests for October hikes.  So, why not
> > just impose this new system in June and leave all the other months
> > the way they are now?  Or, does one size really have to fit all?
>

Reminds me of the old saying:  Democracy must be more than two wolves and a
sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Doug Nering <doug@...> wrote:


From: Doug Nering <doug@...>
Subject: Re: [Grand_Canyon_Hikers] Re: Backcountry Permit Changes - Questions
and Answers...
To: Grand_Canyon_Hikers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 11:23 AM


Is something 'unfair' and needs action only if it affects a majority?
That would be exactly the result for a strict democracy, which is
exactly why I'm glad we don't have one.
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK, maybe I'm too dense to get the joke. Arizona and commercial
permits should equal all first-day permits? -- I don't see that, there
can be non-commercials from other places at the window. We know for a
fact that people do this.

Is something 'unfair' and needs action only if it affects a majority?
That would be exactly the result for a strict democracy, which is
exactly why I'm glad we don't have one. The important question which I
do not know the answer to, would be -- What is the relation between
permit requests and permits issued? If guides are 10% of requests for
permits and get 30% issued, then that would be a cheat to those in the
90%. I would even say it is a statistically significant cheat and
focusing on a convenient low-ball value like 'only 30%' can be a cheap
tactic for miss-direction.

Exactly why doesn't anyone show up on Jan 1 for April permits? Just
'assumed' because it's New-Years? If your business needs permits to
sell hikes in April there's no reason to think everyone will put
partying before business. Dennis, give us some facts not speculation.

-- DN

On Nov 20, 2009, at 23:24, DennisF wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>  In fact, if I am reading the info correctly, less than 30% of the
> first day permits went to commercial guides.  The pie chart show
> Arizona permits and guides, totaling 607, but the text states that
> 696 permits were given on First Day.  Hmm, suddenly I want to watch
> Logan's Run.
>
> Dennis
>
> P.S. - Another question.  It looks like there are only two months
> where this is a big issue, as you noted - May and October.  I know
> that there is a big crowd there on June 1st, waiting to get October
> permits.  But, is there really anyone there on Jan. 1st?  I don't
> think so.  Those are probably 95% faxed requests.  Then, the only
> problem is for June 1st requests for October hikes.  So, why not
> just impose this new system in June and leave all the other months
> the way they are now?  Or, does one size really have to fit all?

I know that a number of people have hiked down Racetrack Hollow from the
Esplanade to Kanab Creek.  If any of you are out there, can you tell me how
technical it is?  I would like to use this route this spring, but don't want to
carry a heavy rope, although I would be willing to take webbing.  If anyone out
there has experience with this route, please let me know.  Thanks.  Bob B.

Check this out:

http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/videos/Jetting-Through-the-Grand-Canyon.ht\
ml

- Drifter