Madsen quote is a "fabrication" from 1950's.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Skousen" <davids@...>
To: <remnantsaints-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [remnantsaints] quote of the day: Self-Gov't & 10C


I recently researched the Ten Commandments rejection by government and
came across this interesting reference to your quote (below) said to be by
James Madison:
--David

P.S. After researching the topic, I find that there really is good legal
reason NOT to have the Ten Commandments posted on government property, even
though I want them to be posted. But that is another topic.
-----------------------------------------------
"Separation of Church & State, false Madison quote used to support idea that
U.S. government was built on Ten Commandments"
Source: Cliff Walker, editor@...
Unfortunately, I didn't record the URL I got it from. I found it by typing
in "Ten Commandments" into DogPile's search engine.
------------------------------------------------
Phony James Madison Quotations
Popularized by David Barton of WallBuilders, Inc.

? This Feature With Frames Index

Complete Fabrication:
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power
of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political
institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the
capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to
sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."
-- Complete Fabrication; sentiments not found in any known Madison writings
and "inconsistent with everything we know about Madison's views on religion
and government," say noted Madison historians

This is a complete fabrication that dates back to the 1950s. A variation of
this fabrication -- and there are several -- was read into the Congressional
Record by Representative Dannemeyer on October 7, 1992. Another variation
was later read into the Congressional Record by Florida Representative
Scarborough on March 5, 1997, in defense of Judge Roy Moore's practice of
posting a condensed version of the Protestant variant of the first tables of
stone rendition of the Hebrew Decalogue on his courtroom wall, in full view
of the Jury Box containing what would otherwise have been an impartial
jury..
Scarborough used this fabrication long after David Barton, its most vehement
proponent, had declared the alleged quotation "false" and had asked people
to stop using it (see Rob Boston's 1996 article "Mything in Action: David
Barton's 'Questionable Quotes'").

The fabrication appears on page 120 of David Barton's stunningly popular
book The Myth of Separation. In the footnote, Barton cites:


"Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian
Society, 1939) pp. 32-33. See also Fedrick Nyneyer, First Principles in
Morality and Economics: Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of Association
(South Holland Libertarian Press, 1958), pp. 31."

Unfortunately for Barton's cause (and for his credibility as a man of
truthfulness), John Stagg and David Mattern, editors of The Papers of James
Madison issued the following statement concerning this misquotation:


"We did not find anything in our files remotely like the sentiment expressed
in the extract you sent us. In addition, the idea is inconsistent with
everything we know about Madison's views on religion and government, views
which he expressed time and time again in public and in private." (Letter
dated November 23, 1993, to which the editors refer all who inquire about
this falsehood.)

This fabrication appears in Lane's book, say Stagg and Mattern, but only in
an article by Nyneyer titled "Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of
Association" (in Progressive Calvinism vol. 31, 1959), not a book; the
article gives as its source the 1958 calendar of Spiritual Mobilization. So
this appears to be a fabrication for a motivational calendar, but the trail
seems to end here.

Much of the above information is based on an article by noted University of
Richmond historian Robert S. Alley, "Public Education and the Public Good,"
published in the William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal, Summer 1995, pp.
316-318, although some is original to Positive Athiesm.

See our "Which Ten Commandments?" for two comparisons: First we compare the
Hebrew listing with the Protestant and Roman Catholic listings (the
Protestant and Roman Catholic each omitting Commandments included in the
Hebrew list). Then we compare the vast differences between the first tables
of stone (those commonly known, from Exodus 20) which were allegedly smashed
by Moses and replaced with a new set of tables, which set allegedly
superceded the first set (very obscure; not popularly known, from Exodus
35). We also offer a free printable Acrobat file of our handbill explaining
this very problematic question of "Which Ten Commandments?"
-------------------------------------

> From: "Sterling D. Allan" <sterlingda@...>
> Reply-To: remnantsaints-owner@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:54:21 -0700
> In light of today's sad ruling against Judge Ray Moore.
>
> ==========
>
> "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the
> capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all
> of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves
> according to the Ten Commandments of God."
>
> -- James Madison, 4th U.S. President
> Called, "Father of our Constitution"
>
> ==========
>
> Digest of astonishing statements that build faith, inspire action, instill
> repentance, stir deep reflection, awaken the sleepyhead giants of Zion.
>
> http://www.GreaterThings.com/Wisdom/Quote/