Dear Lucy

I think you are too hard on yourself - it isn't necessary to be 100% "correct" to be understood.  I agree it is frustrating to feel so limited in another language, and to be constantly making small errors - I have just done an "exercise" on adjectives and my mind refuses to get this one straight, even though I know it shouldn't be difficult.  For quite a long time, I ignored gender in favour of amassing vocabulary, and now I am paying for my "sins" - but I still enjoy the areas where I do make some progress. (Mainly just reading.)  You communicate effectively, which is the main purpose of language.

Regards

Maureen B

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To: FrenchEnglishTutor@yahoogroups.com
From: berlucie@...
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:00:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [ F E T ] Pour John Exercice 1: A rendre une ville agréable?

----- Original Message -----

From: Lucie Hotmail

To: FrenchEnglishTutor@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 10:56 PM

Subject: Re: [ F E T ] Pour John Exercice 1: A rendre une ville agréable?

Hi John,

 

I was very proud to be close to the original corrections. I forgot a mistake at the (12). Your tutor was right with "leur".

 

I choose other words. For me, it's not ingredient but element. I use "ingredient" in a recipe and not in a town.

 

I understand what is  your problem with my suggestion : C’est très agréable si que l’architecture de la ville a ait un caractère unique et si que ses bâtiments historiques sont aient été conservées  The "que" and "si" have a very subtle difference. I prefer the "que" because it's more sure that the architecture and historic buildings were preserved. The "si" is conditional but it would be correct. I think your translation is not exact because the "should have" that is not the same tense I used. "aient été" is a subjonctive present.   Your translation is :  "It's very pleasant that the towns' architecture should have a unique character and its historic buildings preserved."

 

I make comments and probably, you'll have difficulties to understand them because I'm a little good in French but not in English. It's not sure I'm right but I think your tutor and I are maybe right.

 

I liked to do this exercise. Also, I don't forget that I live in Canada, I think like a French Canadian.

 

Number 7 : In Canada, we use the word "légumes" instead of "végétales"

 

Number 10 : dont il y a plusieurs     this part of the sentence is wrong

 

musées qui tiennent les trésors nationaux. "tiennent" is not the good choice of verb

 

qualité internationale : qualité is a feminine noun.We have to add an "e" to internationale

 

Number 11 : In Canada, the pronoun "on" is used at plural when it's used for many people. So, on est fiers. On is used instead of Nous.

 

Number 15 : There is a mistake : "de se bien adapter" is wrong. It's "de bien s'adapter"

 

Number 16 : It's a little bizarre to say : cela est un bon système....   I think it's better to say : c'est un bon système....

 

je me sers en exemple des les villes de Bradford en Angleterre et de Caen en France. Your  "des" is better than the "les" suggested by your tutor

 

On peut chercher lesquels sur l’Internet mais il n’est pas la même chose. "This sentence is not right"

 

I thank you so much to have proposed this exercise. It's a good way to practise my written French that I didn't practise since I'm retired.

 

Lucie

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Tempest

To: FrenchEnglishTutor@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:53 PM

Subject: RE: [ F E T ] Exercice FET from John T

Hi Lucie

 

Your corrections are very close to the original corrections made by my original tutor – though you are a little bit more severe than she was. Some choice of words and constructions were allowed to stand if the transmnitted the meaning intended and did not contravene grammatical rules. For instance in the second paragraph, I wanted to express the following: "It's very pleasant/pleasing if the town's architecture has a unique character and if its historic buildings have been preserved." I don't see anything wrong with what I wrote there using "si" for "if" and following the grammatical rules. The Robert-Collins dictionary still gives me examples that are similar to my statement – though in good English/French practice I invert the construction so that the result (or conclusion) appears before the condition is stated. If we go back to my original English intention, what happens if I replace the word "if" by "when" each time it occurs?" In my view the meaning remains exactly the same. I'm having difficulty with your suggestion there because if I translate it back into English it seems to come out as: "It's very pleasant that the towns' architecture should have a unique character and its historic buildings preserved."

 

I think that I missed out at least one correction in my transcription from the original, but you seem to have picked them up.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Tempest

To: FrenchEnglishTutor@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 1:56 PM

Subject: RE: [ F E T ] Pour John Exercice 1: A rendre une ville agréable?

Dear Lucie, and others

Please don't feel uneasy about asking about the progress on something I had previously promised. In my last message I was trying to give an explanation for the delay. I ran out of time while I was writing the email, and so couldn't include the information that I have been suffering the usual symptoms of influenza (la grippe): drained of strength, energy, and feeling extremely exhausted, followed by shivering attacks, and then feverish body temperature, -- fortunately no symptoms allied to the respiratory system. Then over 4 subsequent days, mainly feeling exhausted and without strength in one's muscles, and still alternating between feeling cold and the temperature of my skin positively burning hot! It is probable that I had contracted the so called Swine Flu. .............. Enough of the tales of woe, back to the exercise (as corrected) – Words and letters in Red (and usually struck through with a horizontal line) are incorrect or inappropriate for some reason, the words and characters marked in Green are the appropriately corrected forms or suggested replacements. A number in square brackets like this [1] refers to a note below the current text which explains why a particular correction is made.

 

Sujet 1 : Clefs en mains

Quels sont les ingrédients qui contribuent le mieux à rendre une ville agréable ?

 

Une ville qui est agréable à l’un ne soit n’est pas [1] nécessairement agréable à l’autre. Il y a de [8] nombreux facteurs déterminants, dont seulement certains sont pertinents à tout le monde, qui constituent une ville enviable. Un catalogue des ingrédients comprenne comprend [1] l’environnement général, la conjoncture économique, le centre commercial et la diversité des marchandises, les attractions culturelles, les installations sportives et de loisirs, et les moyens de transport. En réponse à cette question, je vais discuter ceux qui que [2] je trouve les plus appropriés pour moi. Afin de faire une argumentation solide, je me sers en exemple des les villes de Bradford en Angleterre et de Caen en France.

 

D’abord, prenons en considération l’environnement d’une ville. Que [3] la ville soit grande ou petite, industrielle ou agricole, mais c’est important que la ville ne se ressente pas de la dégradation urbaine et que les industries ne polluent pas la ville. C’est très agréable si l’architecture de la ville a un caractère unique et si ses bâtiments historiques sont conservés. La plupart des bâtiments à Bradford sont érigées ont été érigés [4] à pendant la dernière moitié de la du dix-neuvième siècle et à la au vingtième siècle. Une grande partie du vieux centre-ville était a été démolie [4] dans les années soixante et s’est a été remplacée [4] par les immeubles sans âme de cette époque. On a détruit beaucoup de beaux bâtiments et de vielles galeries marchandes qui font faire rendent [5] les courses très agréables.

 

Aller faire les courses est essentiel pour la vie, et une vaste gamme des provisions alimentaires est non seulement un délice pour les yeux mais également est bonne [6] pour la santé quand il y a une abondance des fruits et des végétales fraîches frais [7] dans les marchés et les épiceries. Du pain sortant du four d’une boulangerie du quartier est une autre joie. Malheureusement, il n’y a guère de boulangers du coin à Bradford. La présence des supermarchés et des grands magasins à succursales multiples au centre-ville ou en périphérie ne compense pas l’absence des petites boutiques spécialisées des [8] toutes sortes. Moi, j’aime bien fouiller dans chez [9] les bouquinistes pour les livres d’occasion. On peut chercher lesquels sur l’Internet mais il n’est pas la même chose.

 

Les bouquinistes sont aussi une partie de la vie culturelle de la ville avec les théâtres, les cinémas, les musées, les bibliothèques, les concerts de toutes sortes, et son calendrier de manifestations. Chaque ville a son propre caractère qui se reflète par son histoire et ses arts. Les musées consacrés à la vie ancienne de la ville, dont il y a plusieurs en à [10] Caen, sont aussi importants que ces musées qui tiennent les trésors nationaux. Un musée national situé dans la ville, comme le Musée National de la Photographie à Bradford, est aussi quelque chose dont on peut d’être fier [11]. Les cinémas qui montrent les films de qualité international sont aussi importants que ceux qui montrent les films américains à grand succès. Les petits théâtres avec ses leurs [12] troupes des amateurs peuvent apporter un sentiment de la cohésion sociale à la communauté de la ville. Les villes avec les gens venant d’horizons ethniques différents aussi ajoutent un élément très intéressant quand les fêtes spéciales sont célébrées.

 

La vie culturelle proprement dite [13] est une partie de la vie sociale qui, de plus, est fournie par les restaurants, les activités sportives, les boîtes de nuit, les pubs et les clubs de rencontres. Ces derniers sont une partie un élément [14] nécessaire de la vie en communauté locale, et sont particulièrement importants pour les gens qui sont nouveaux venus, peut-être sans famille, à la ville. Les clubs permettent à un individu à de connaître les autre gens et de se bien adapter à la vie dans la ville [15].

 

Je n’ai pas dit [cité/énuméré] beaucoup de choses qui rendent désagréable la vie dans une ville tel que le taux de la criminalité ou des quartiers pauvres et insalubres. Bien sûr, j’admets qu’il y a des choses plus importantes pour les autres gens qui font rendent [5] une ville agréable que ceux celles que j’ai citées. Mais je pense qu’il y a une chose qui est nécessaire pour presque tout le monde dans une ville, et ça cela [16] est un bon système de transports publics. Un réseau de chemin de fer ou un bon système routier qui permet aux citoyens de voyager facilement autour de la ville en train, en tram, en voiture, en vélo, en bus, ou aux pieds à pied [17], est un grand avantage.

 

Tous les ingrédients, dont j’ai fait mention ci-dessus, sont pour moi les choses qui contribuent le mieux à rendre une ville agréable.

                                                                        

Notes:

[1] In English we use the words "may" and "might" often to express something in a particularly polite way. My tutor sees my statements as presented facts (no doubt is expressed), and therefore not requiring the subjunctive mood in French.

[2] "ceux" is the object of the next clause as well as the first clause - "que" is the proper object relative pronoun to refer back to the original. NB Some of the mistakes such as "qui" for "que" particular when there is a "je" right next to it seem almost slap-dash to me now when I look back on them.

[3] I was attempting to say "The town may be big or small, etc., but .".  As the tutor pointed out, the French have a common construction and expression "Que la ville soit ...." [Whether the town is large and small].

[4] In these cases, some action [erection, demolition] had been performed upon them [buildings] and completed in the past. The appropriate tense is perfect tense (passé composé) of the verb in its passive form. The past participle must match the gender and number of the subject. – At the time, I think I was completely at sea on the use of passive versus pronominal etc.

[5] rendre with adjective – eg rendre quelqu'un hereux = to make someone happy [much better than faire]

[6] Miscellaneous non-specific quantities e.g. an abundance of (une abondance de), a vast range of (une vaste gamme de);

[7] an adjective applied to things of both masculine and feminine gender, takes the masculine form in agreement; In France vegetables are commonly referred to as légumes (in a generic sense).

[8] When a noun is preceded by an adjective of indeterminate quantity "de" is used to stand for the indefinite article.

[9] "chez" for shops rather than "dans"

[10] "à" for towns – you just have to remember these rules!

[11] "dont on peut être fier" was recommended as a better way of expressing the sentiment.

[12] "Ses" refers to a single possessor. One must use leur if we are talking about more than one possessor, as I was here.

[13] simple agreement error.

[14] "partie" refers to a fraction, unquantified part of, an amount whereas I wanted to mention one specific thing.

[15] This is a question of getting to know which prepositions follow which verbs. First case: "to allow someone to do something" = permettre à quelqu'un de faire quelque chose!

[16] "cela" must be used in place of "ça" in formal writing.

[17] "à pied" is the correct expression for on foot. I think at this stage, I was glad to have come to what could be deemed an end and fulfilled the required number of words (750?). I'd probably allowed time to pass before getting down to the assignment, and I knew that the assignment had to reach the tutor printed on paper and accompanied with the proper forms before a specific cut-off date, or the effort would have been mostly a waste of time for the purposes of course credit. So, instead of revising the spellings and finding out the errors in agreement, or spending some time perhaps polishing the last part of the assignment which is self-evidently rushed, the emphasis was in getting it out of the door.

 

 

Well, there you are, the suggested corrections. I'll be happy to explain my notes in further detail, if anyone has specific points. There are some extra remarks to be made, which will have to follow later.

 

JohnT

From: FrenchEnglishTutor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FrenchEnglishTutor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lucie Bergeron
Sent: 10 July 2009 21:09
To: frenchenglishtutor@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [ F E T ] Pour John Exercice 1: A rendre une ville agréable?

 

Hi John,
 
I don't want to oblige you to type this work just because I asked it. I can wait that your paper copy appears suddenly. We often find something when we are not looking for.
 
I am a little uneasy about my request.
 
Thank you very much.
 
Je ne veux surtout pas vous obliger à écrire ce travail parce que je l'ai demandé. Je peux attendre que votre papier réapparaisse soudainement. Nous trouvons souvent les choses quand on ne les cherche plus.
 
Je suis un peu mal à l'aise d'avoir fait cette demande.
 
Merci beaucoup
Lucie  

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