----- Original Message -----

From: leonard@...

To: FamilyRightsAdvocacyIMPROVEMENTProject@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:29 PM

Subject: [FamilyRightsAdvocacyIMPROVEMENTProject] Leonard replies

Thank you Kay for injecting a moment of sanity into the usual clutch bag of shrill yapping here at the Blame and Bash AFRA
Club. I quit sticking my head up in here because every time I did, I felt like the duck in a carnival duck shoot game.

 

I can understand you're feeling this way, Leonard. Blame and Bash AFRA club...what about teh Bash Suzanne Shell Club? And the bashing of anyone who may or is thought to be an associate of hers? I think everyone has some level of blame, some more than others.

Every time I tried to put forward the truth and the facts, it was just like CAROL KANE in THE PRINCESS BRIDE comes out yelling "Liar -- LIAR-LI-A-A-AR".

How do I answer that?  Is "Nuh-uh.  Am not" going to work? 

 

This is where a happy median needs(or not so happy?)  to be agreed upon. Quite honestly, Leonard, if one person in particular were to tell me they were sorry, or whatever, I would never believe it. This person has caused too much harma couple of people They have simply caused too much harm now. I cannot not and will not ever work with them. I'm sure many other people feel the same way, and even more strongly than I do.put up a reca Just so you know, Leonard, you are NOT one of those people I'm thinking of now.

So how about I clarify a few issues?

#1  I have not been the founder of AFRA my entire life.

I would agree. Most of us had former past lives B-CPS.

#2 My wife and I was scheduled to spend January 2001 in Colorado with Suzanne Shell learning how to do family advocacy. 

I was aware of this.

#3  As soon as I removed myself from the hospital, my friends hauled me to the coast to my RN mother.  When I started feeling better, THEN I started AFRA. Nev Moore and Suzanne were co-founders.  Suzanne expressly stated that she wanted to keep a LOW PROFILE because some people wouldn't be pleased to see her involved (or something like that.  I don't remember the exact words). 

 

I have also known this for many years. I never said anything publicly because I was asked not to. This is one of the things that has bothered me so much. Suzanne sucks, Suzanne is a bitch, let's get Suzanne, AFRA is the best, down with Suzanne, we're so much better...and I'm thinking...Suzanne was a co-founder! I don't think many people out there were (or are) aware of this and I thank you for coming out and saying so.
I knew at the time when it happened that Suzanne wanted to be kept in the background. Suzanne is no dummy and was aware of the controversy surrounding her. She knew how people felt about her.some  Her request to keep herself in the background for those reasons are commendable. She put the good of AFRA before herself. She wanted to see AFRA succeed and she knew she (her name) could be an impediment to that success. I admire her for that quality and ability to be able to foresee potential problems and have a workable solution before they come up and are big problems.

#4  The infamous Renee Cygan treachery.  As a result, Suzanne wanted to put up a "Bad Advocates List' at AFRA.  I said "Sure".  Suzanne sent it to me and I slapped it up at AFRA.  I hardly skimmed it because I trusted Suzanne implicitly.  Within minutes, I started getting hot emails about the list.  I went and actually READ the entire list and found Rick Thoma's "Lifting the Veil" http://www.liftingtheveil.org/

 

I was involved with this too. What Cygan did was horrific. She was given ample opportunity to return the missing items and nothing ever would have been said. She refused and even today puts out her own twisted version of what occurred. I knew there was going to be a public condemnation of this sort of behavior, but didn't know exactly what it would be. I didn't know Rick Thoma or several other people originally listed on it.

I certainly disagreed that Rick should be on the bad advocates list because I USED HIS STUFF to get my own case shut down.  It started looking to me like the Bad Advocates List was more aptly "Suzanne's Personal Vendetta List".  I pulled the list and told Suzanne that I couldn't support it and it just wasn't AFRA's style.

 

That is certainly fine. I didn't see it as a personal vendetta list, but I was also privy to some of the supporting documentation on some of the people listed. When this group was started, I saw supporting documentation that, to me, was quite appalling. I also have personal knowledge of how Suzanne researches and what proper documentation is...and I knew if she said she had it, she damn well did. I knew of people saying...so and so needs to be added to the Bad Advocate List. I know Suzanne refused to add them unless the complainant could provide evidence of their claims. I know there were many who said...so and so did this, stole that, blah, blah, but they never provided proof of the claim. So and so wasn't added to the list.

#5 In a fit of callow insolence, Suzanne modified our membership logo and put it on her front page-

I can see how this would bother you.

#6  So here's the paradoxical, insoluble, conundrum.  Suzanne expects AFRA to be the big policeman.  Suzanne expects AFRA to punish people who don't like her.  She is a tentative friend who can turn into a dependable enemy at light speed for absolutely NOTHING. It took me a long time to realize that it is impossible to win her friendship back and alienation is forever.  It pains me yet to say this because I like to be on good terms with everybody and the peace maker, but the best words I know to describe Suzanne is "implacable enemy".  Suzanne seems to be organically incapable of saying words like- "I was wrong.  I am sorry".  Or- "My over-reaction might have been a bit premature and poorly considered".  No, a torrent of bellicose and brusque words becomes her smokescreen.  And then the inevitable sword rattling suggesting a lawsuit, which I find dumbfounding because I have the belief that the unconstitutional courts are our ultimate enemy.

Okay...I disagree with you here. I think Suzanne expects AFRA to control their members. I think she expected AFRA to deal with identified rogue members quickly, efficiently, and effectively. I don't think it had to do with anyone who doesn't necessarily like her; it was the problems as a WHOLE. The problems reflected on all of us. She wanted to be in the background of founding AFRA in order to protect AFRA. She wanted certain undesirables to be dealt with properly in order to protect others, too.

Suzanne has come to me, sometimes even publicly, and admitted being wrong and apologized. If she did it publicly, she apologizes publicly. If she did it privately, she apologizes privately.

#7  Kay is more correct than she knows about my health. 

I was aware of these things, too, but I didn't say anything because...well, I just don't.

#8 Far from being "inextricably intertwined" with Wiseman, the only thing he has done that I asked him to was make it perfectly clear that AFRA had nothing to do with what he does.  Last time I rattled his cage, I asked him to please, PLEASE quit harassing Shell's bunch.  He responded by saying his website"is mine, I pay for it and NOBODY can tell me what to do".  Shell's bunch says "Yep, there's the PROOF that AFRA pulls Billy's strings".  Gawd that's stupid logic. 

 

I don't think it was as simple as that, Leo. Things like this are still around:

member Renee Cygan
Stone Park Illinois 60165

group Parents Against The System
persons 200
email renee@...
hide phone
date May 11, 2006
comments Family Advocate training instructor and Public Awareness Speaker and educator. Owner and founder of Parents Against The System

I got this just now. This shows a link to Renee and Billy. That's just one example. There are many more showing links. Emails people have linking Bill Tower, Dennis and several others to Billy. There remains links. Renee is featured on his site, too, as well as other AFRA members. There continues to be quiet nasties going on behind the scenes.

Has Bill Tower publicly disparaged Billy from doing what he's doing? Has Dennis? I mean really meaning it, too. I understand we cannot know another's heart and intentions, but actions can reveal some of it. I've seen no actions on the Leaders part. Also Leonard, I don't mean to sound rude with this question, but are you telling us that AFRA Leadership cannot control a mentally challenged boy in a man's body? Are you serious? Does anyone really expect anyone else to believe this?

There are others, too, Leonard. The Wikipedia discussion on here shows someone from California writing on there, as well as someone from Massachusetts. The Massachusetts one was not Greg Hession, either, as Billy tried to claim.

As for Wiseman's website, as far as I am concerned, it is a pure evil pile of crap.  Likewise, the Bad Advocate List is an even more evil pile of crap.  That filthy, pornographic page about me is sickening and uncalled-for.  Yeah, it's really cool to make fun of a sick man whose date with death is accelerated by 30 years for the simple reason that I worked really hard at some really dirty jobs in some really nasty conditions.

I would agree with you on Wiseman's site. He has been given false information and doesn't know how to properly research to find out if he is being the truth. Certain people stroke him and make him feel good and he believes everything they tell him. This is why several legitimate organizations have publicly stated his site isn't credible. Colorado Confidential, Dig, and Wikipedia. I see him being taken advantage of and I think it's terrible that AFRA members continue to do this...or let's even say they no longer are (understand I don't believe this, but we'll say so hypothetically). Then they are dumbasses for letting it continue and not having the leadership skills and wisdom for letting it go so long and coming to the point of having the out of control attack dog. Shame, shame on them.

As far as the newer version of the Bad Advocates, I think it's gone downhill, too. Pretty far downhill with some of the stuff. I've also said so. I wrote the Editors and I signed my name. My letter, last time I checked, was still on the page, as well as their response to me. I just went and looked. My letter is still there, about halfway down the front page.

 

 

#9  Regarding "I don't think Leonard has any control TO do anything."  Well yeah, I do still have control in AFRA if I wanted to.  I nor AFRA certainly do have control over Wiseman, and more than you do.

I think this was a typo. See my comments and questions above.

No, Leonard has not been "kicked out". I happily gave AFRA over to the Board of Directors.  I just got to the point that I couldn't afford to care anymore because it was too hard on my health.  As for the first guy I turned AFRA over to, my conjecture is that he quickly figured out that AFRA could never be turned into the big, bad police like Suzanne has always wanted.  So he decided to bail before he found himself on the outs with SS.

I understand why you would think this, Leonard. I believe it is incorrect. I saw a written agreement between Suzanne and the then AFRA President. I think I might have been the first one to read it, even before Suzanne. I also know who was behind that sabotage and I said so on the BOD back then. How many others out there know there was a written contract ready between Afra President, Greg Hession, and Suzanne Shell? Not many, I bet. How many out there know that there were three BOD members who actively sabotaged that effort? And people wonder why everyone is so pissed off?

#10  AFRA doesn't cause or encourage people to become rowdy scrappers.  People who get involved with this movement tend to be survivors who are really pissed at what the system did to them, their friends, relatives, and especially to the children.  Rather than cower and hide, the people who speak up and participate in this movement tend to be extroverts, forceful, highly independent, and yes, arrogant.  Knowing this, we stated from the beginning that there would probably never be a national convention because it would just turn into a WWF "over the top battle royale".

Are you sure about this, Leonard? I believe there has been much evidence of AFRA members and Leadership quietly, secretly encouraging it from behind the scenes.

As for the rest of the crap, it's just figments of your obsessive imaginations.  AFRA isn't "out to get you".  Get over it.

To speak for myself, Leonard, my daughter was falsely turned in. My phone service was shut down. Letters were written about me to a Judge who was the key speaker at a conference I was also speaking at. Lies were told to him. Our family has received several different threats and been the victims of anti-Semitism and hate. Phone calls were made to attorneys and other professionals I work with that made false statements about me. An email I partially wrote in confidence to AFRA BOD several years ago is featured on Billy's site. Now how did Billy get this...unless a current AFRA BOD gave it to him? By the way, there are some additions to the email that I didn't write. The information on it isn't current, either.

It is grossly unfair for me to be the object of such hatred.  Especially when every single accusation has been an invention and the series totals up to a FABLE. 

I think most who have been attacked unjustly would say the same thing. It is grossly unfair for my daughter and her husband to have to go through what they did because of some asshole who doesn't like me because of who I choose to associate with.

 

Thanks for the dialogue, Leonard. It's good to see you again.

 

Kay