Leonard said:

Suzanne responds:

#1 - Thank you Kay for injecting a moment of sanity into the usual clutch bag of shrill yapping here at the Blame and Bash AFRA

Club

Your usual rhetoric and hyperbole will not sway the independent thinkers on this forum. ESPECIALLY when you frame your comments to batter us with your sexist attitudes about intelligent women. Save it for AFRA. It’s not welcome here.

. I quit sticking my head up in here because every time I did, I felt like the duck in a carnival duck shoot game.

You are a hit and run member, Leonard, popping up like a duck in a carnival game to take your cheap shots and disappearing when the questions get too tough. Nobody was ever rude to you, they treated you with kid gloves even when you were rude and abusive like you are in this post. You ran from the questions. Be man, If you didn’t have the stones to honestly answer the questions posed, at least take responsibility for ducking and running and quit blaming others. If you make an appearance, at least have the courtesy to answer the questions - otherwise, don’t bother appearing.

Every time I tried to put forward the truth and the facts, it was just like CAROL KANE in THE PRINCESS BRIDE comes out yelling "Liar -- LIAR-LI-A-A-AR".

Your "truth" and "facts" did not include ANY supporting documentation, just like YOUR most recent post does not include any supporting documentation. Therefore, under the rules of this group, they are considered FALSE.

     The responses to your posts included supporting documentation which proved your "truth" and "facts" were inaccurate. You did not rebut the supporting documentation with any of your own. . .you tucked tail and ran, and you come back boo-hooing about being called a liar when the rules of this group insist that any unproven claim is presumed FALSE.

     Get it? No supporting documentation = False allegation = LIAR?

1 I have not been the founder of AFRA my entire life.

Nobody said you were. Get over it

I bought Dad's 400 acre ranch at the age of 21. . . . Became blah, blah, blah. . .became teen teacher.  Blah blah blah. . .

Life story. . .what’s the point except to distract the reader’s attention from the issues? Not interested, don’t care. I don’t bore you with MY life story. . .please reciprocate.

. . .Finished welding career in 1988 in Alaska spending half of every day on hands and knees coughing at the floor due to asbestos in both lungs . . .

ALERT ALERT - shameless ploy for sympathy. I don’t burden anyone with my debilitating health issues. Neither do Christine or Robin or Effie, who, unlike you, bear up silently and NEVER try to invoke sympathy from anyone, based on their equally crippling health issues. . .they are IRRELEVANT to the issues we deal with on this group. Be a man. Oh - excuse me, you are. . . (how does it feel, Leonard, to have sexist remarks made about being such a wimpy baby about your health?) NOTE #1 to Moderators. . .this comment was intended to prove a point about mean-spirited, sexist comments, from a person viewed to be in authority, directed at a member of the opposite sex. Offense was intended.

I had a complete health crash due to heavy smoke from forest fires and frustration with being persecuted by CPS for behavior of 15 year-old step son.

ALERT ALERT - shameless ploy for sympathy

So, are we done with the distractions yet?

Summary: Item #1 is stricken as irrelevant, immaterial and prejudicial.

#2 - My wife and I was scheduled to spend January 2001 in Colorado with Suzanne Shell learning how to do family advocacy.

So? What does this have to do with AFRA deceit, false advertising, con artistry, sabotage, etc? The distractions continue. . .sigh.

Instead, I spent the first 2 weeks of January 2001 in the hospital with Deep Vein Thrombosis in BOTH LEGS. If you don't think DVT's are a big deal, I suggest you find out what they are and what it's like having them. 

ALERT ALERT - shameless ploy for sympathy

Summary: Item #2 is stricken as irrelevant, immaterial and prejudicial.

#3 As soon as I removed myself from the hospital, my friends hauled me to the coast to my RN mother.

ALERT ALERT - shameless ploy for sympathy

When I started feeling better, THEN I started AFRA. Nev Moore and Suzanne were co-founders. Suzanne expressly stated that she wanted to keep a LOW PROFILE because some people wouldn't be pleased to see her involved (or something like that. I don't remember the exact words).

FINALLY, substance of a sort. I will treat this as laying the foundation for the issues under examination.

     I will confirm being a co-founder of AFRA at Leonard’s request. I will also confirm advising Leonard that I did not want to be on the board, but preferred a behind-the-scenes advisory capacity to insure there was no excuse for controversy based on me which might prevent unifying the groups.

     In other words, I put the good of AFRA and unity over and above any personal needs, desires, etc. So, shoot me for being selfless.

Summary #3 - Leonard asked Suzanne to be a co-founder of AFRA. Suzanne accepted conditioned upon remaining behind the scenes to insure no barriers to AFRA’s goal of uniting everyone.

#4 The infamous Renee Cygan treachery. As a result, Suzanne wanted to put up a "Bad Advocates List' at AFRA. I said "Sure". Suzanne sent it to me and I slapped it up at AFRA. I hardly skimmed it because I trusted Suzanne implicitly. Within minutes, I started getting hot emails about the list

So, where are these emails, Leonard? I don’t see them supporting your claim.

Produce them here or withdraw this claim.

Question in response. . .why did you continue to support Cygan throughout all of this and hammer me? Why didn’t you tell Cygan to jump in a lake, that AFRA did not condone that kind of “treachery”? Because, you wanted to be friends with everyone? Fine, be “friends” with Cygan the traitor. . .but don’t expect me to be friends with that ilk. THAT’s why you are butt-hurt, Leonard, because, unlike you, I refused to compromise my principles, because I DON’T believe in peace at any price. . .and that made you look bad. Offense intended.

. I went and actually READ the entire list and found Rick Thoma's "Lifting the Veil" http://www.liftingtheveil.org/

“He said, she said” non sequitor. . .to rebut I refer readers to my website www.profane-justice.org and follow the Parentsmarch links for the account of Thoma’s deception to the participants in that event. By his own admission, Leonard wasn’t even involved in this movement when that happened in 1998. He’s clueless.

     Furthermore, I met Thoma in person, Leonard hasn’t. I think they’d get along, dancing around each other with non-responsive answers to direct questions, blithely oblivious to the fact that they are not communicating anything of substance and feeling pretty good about each other in the process.

     Bottom line. . .Leonard read a web site and decided he liked the guy. I worked with Thoma for months and got burned by his lies. I did not like him and did not trust him. I thought we could agree to disagree.

     Leonard didn’t, Leonard bashed me on AFRA forums because I stood my ground in opposition to his control-freak ORDERS. See Leonard’s page at www.badadvocates.com for the complete documentation of Leonard’s public bashing of me because of the bad advocates page. EVEN when AFRA had a public policy of not interfering with the organizations or publications of others. Unless you were Suzanne Shell. Offense intended

     THIS is how Leonard makes peace. . .he batters his opposition into submission. Except he made one huge mistake . . . I cannot be battered.

I certainly disagreed that Rick should be on the bad advocates list because I USED HIS STUFF to get my own case shut down

And Leonard is certainly entitled to excuse deception, misrepresentation and nonfeasance when the offender helped him get his case shut down. I did not require Leonard to “trust me implicitly” in my assessment of the man based on my experiences. I made no effort to force Leonard to support my assessment. I don’t care what Leonard thinks about my opinions - and THAT’s what chaps his ego. The Bad Advocates list is just a convenient excuse to be exploited. By now, I was proving to be a problem, because I did not defer to Leonard’s judgment. Offense intended.

. It started looking to me like the Bad Advocates List was more aptly "Suzanne's Personal Vendetta List". I pulled the list and told Suzanne that I couldn't support it and it just wasn't AFRA's style.

See. . . He ignored the wrongdoing that was clearly cited for each person listed. He tried to minimize the wrongdoing, included theft, abuse and sexual exploitation!

   Yes, after lifting wet finger to test the political wind, he decided he couldn’t support it and it wasn’t AFRA’s style.

     I said, OK, I understand and that was that as far as I was concerned. Or so I thought.  

     He excused what the offenders did, condoned it, refused to sanction the wrongdoers. Why? Because it meant that some people would not be friends. Leonard cannot stand it if everyone doesn’t love everyone else. So. . .somebody had to compromise.

      Cygan compromised by getting amnesia and ‘forgetting’ what she did and Leonard welcomed her into the AFRA fold.

     I quietly refused to compromise. I published the original list on my web site and made it strictly factual. That made Leonard mad. So, he called it a vendetta list. . . deciding that nobody did anything wrong, or if they did, I and everyone else should forgive and forget. He took his vendetta to censor my publication to AFRA forums. I had no choice but to stand on my principles. Neither one of us would back down. . .so I’m the bad guy and Leonard declares bashing Suzanne season open on AFRA forums. See how the control freak batterer operates? Beat the stubborn bitch into submission. Offense intended

#5 In a fit of callow insolence, Suzanne modified our membership logo and put it on her front page-

Not Supported by AFRA"

“Callow insolence”!!! ROTFLMAO. Do I need any stronger proof from the mouth of the Oracle that he was butt-hurt for the sole reason that I did not bend to his will? Is that NOT the very definition of insolence? I owed no duty of obedience to AFRA. I disagreed with AFRA on this issue. I was not an AFRA minion to do AFRA’s beck and call. Leonard refused to accept my independence and he was determined to break my will.

     I am pleased to learn that my message was not too subtle for the lofty intellect of this . . .man. Yes, I INTENDED to be insolent, in the face of your control-freak efforts to make me tow your line. I intended to send the message that I did not respect your efforts to control me and would spit in your face for trying to control me.

     IF you had left me alone and not allowed AFRA forums to be used to bash me and had not incited, encouraged and modeled that bashing, I never would have expressed myself with such ‘callow insolence.’ There would have been no need.

     BTW - I actually put “unsupported” over the AFRA logo, because you, yourself made it clear you did not support me. I believe in truth in advertising. This should have pleased you, that I made it clear you did not support my web site. So. . .Do you find the advertisement as I altered it to be untruthful. . .or just personally offensive due to it’s callow insolence?

#6 So here's the paradoxical, insoluble, conundrum. Suzanne expects AFRA to be the big policeman.

I never said that. I demand you to produce the supporting documentation or else you withdraw this claim.

YOU said it, but I never did. Liar. Offense intended

Suzanne expects AFRA to punish people who don't like her.

I never said that. I demand you to produce the supporting documentation or else you withdraw this claim.

   It should be really obvious that I don’t care if people like me if it means compromising my values or principles. I don’t like people who would demand that kind of compromise as the cost of liking me.

     The concept that anyone could care so little about what other people think is completely alien to you because you are so dependent on outside opinions to measure your own self-worth. You don’t have a value you can call your own that wouldn’t pass a popularity poll first, and you want everyone else’s values to be cheaper than yours. Offense intended

    I don’t care if you don’t like me, You don’t even notice my total lack of concern for you as a person because you are so bent out of shape simply because I don’t like you, and I don’t trust you, and I don’t respect you, and I don’t care about you and that offends you to the point that it consumes you. All you can think is “How dare she judge me like this!” Yes, I dare, because I don’t care about you, you pig. Get it? You are chicken shit to be scraped off of my shoe. Offense intended

     Once you can get past that blind spot, then maybe we can engage in some intelligent dialogue. Until then, you can torture yourself with the fact that I publicly despise you. Offense intended.

She is a tentative friend who can turn into a dependable enemy at light speed for absolutely NOTHING. It took me a long time to realize that it is impossible to win her friendship back and alienation is forever.

See what I mean about his blinders. . .I refer the reader AGAIN to Leonard’s page at www.badadvocates.com for the documentation of YEARS of public abuse I endured at his hands and at his sufferance. If that makes me a ‘tentative friend’ I gladly wear that moniker.

     In my book, friends don’t treat friends the way he treated me. Offense intended.

It pains me yet to say this because I like to be on good terms with everybody and the peace maker, but the best words I know to describe Suzanne is "implacable enemy".

Leonard is NOT a peace maker. Leonard makes war on anyone who disagrees with him and calls that peacemaking.

    Thank you for FINALLY recognizing what I have said for years. . .don’t fuck with me. I bite. Hard. You don’t want me as an enemy. Please, pass this hard-learned lesson on far and wide. I cannot be bullied, battered, harassed or terrorized into submission in violation of my principles or my rights. If this principled stubbornest makes YOU look bad, that’s not my problem. Offense intended.

Suzanne seems to be organically incapable of saying words like- "I was wrong. I am sorry". Or- "My over-reaction might have been a bit premature and poorly considered". No, a torrent of bellicose and brusque words becomes her smokescreen. And then the inevitable sword rattling suggesting a lawsuit, which I find dumbfounding because I have the belief that the unconstitutional courts are our ultimate enemy.

Provide the supporting documentation Leonard, or withdraw this claim. I don’t owe you or AFRA an apology for speaking the truth and exposing your misdeeds.

    I know you are just butt-hurt because I never apologized to you. For what? For being your verbal punching bag for years, oblivious to my pleas to just leave me alone? I’m not sorry I finally gave it back to you as good as or better than you gave it to me. I’m not sorry you and AFRA are suffering because of the years of terror, harassment, abuse, stalking, defamation and sabotage intended to harm my business, my reputation, and my property that you allowed and encouraged and participated in.

     What hurts you the most is that I am still here, exposing EVERY time AFRA messes THAT’s why you popped up here again. . .AFRA’s attempts to piggyback on that DC Rally are faltering and I’m being blamed, again.

     You should have backed off when I asked, Leonard. I am an implacable enemy. . .and you declared war on me first. Or did you forget that in your pontificating?

     Too bad you underestimated the abilities of a bunch of intelligent, independent, highly principled women. That concept is completely alien to a male chauvinist pig like you. Offense intended

#7 Kay is more correct than she knows about my health. I have DIED two Decembers in a row now. The first time, the hospital staff had noted the time and gave up. My RN mother went to bat when they said "It might have been too long and there MAY be disabilities". Mom said "He has an extremely high IQ and he can tolerate or adapt to a lot of disability. He still has 4 children at home that needs a Daddy". They woke me up a week later and started asking me questions. I knew what year it was, who the governor of Oregon was, and who the past 3 presidents were. I named them all back to Warren G. Harding and then finished up stating "And the test you just administered to me is called the Folstein Test". Social Security Part A paid something like $120,000 for these two hospitalizations. I don't have Part B and the portion it would have paid totals about $250,000 for the two hospitalizations. Which I certainly cannot pay.

I am operating on less than 20% lung capacity and looking forward to becoming eligible for Medicare Part B on June 1st so I can get an O2 accumulator so I can breath better. When you can't breath, nothing else matters. I don't have a lot of really "good", comfortable days.

ALERT ALERT - shameless ploy for sympathy

    Oh for Gawd’s sake, get over it, Leonard. If you are too sick to participate, then retire and watch your legacy crumble.

     If you are too stubborn to retire, GET OVER YOURSELF and get to work. Have you noticed you are the ONLY one complaining about your health in a cheap attempt to gain sympathy? And you do it strategically. . .only when you are losing a debate. What a transparent baby. Offense intended.

     As for your high IQ (120 as I recall from an earlier pontifcation) . . .it sucks bottom muck compared to Greg’s or Christine’s, or Effie’s. . .or mine. GET OVER YOURSELF, DUDE! Your braggadocio about your puny abilities is NOT impressing me. In fact, I find it irritating because it has nothing to do with the merits of this debate.

   As for your poverty. . .it is not unique, either. Most of us are poor, and don’t have health care or disability. Look at Christine, a widow with a mortgage, a disabled adult child and grandchildren to care for and Meconi dogging her and her family 24/7. Do you see her whining about her disabilities (yes, plural) No - she has bigger stones than YOU do, dude.. Grow up for Gawd’s sake and take it like a WOman. What a pathetic girly man. Offense intended.

#8 Far from being "inextricably intertwined" with Wiseman, the only thing he has done that I asked him to was make it perfectly clear that AFRA had nothing to do with what he does.

Last time I rattled his cage, I asked him to please, PLEASE quit harassing Shell's bunch. He responded by saying his website"is mine, I pay for it and NOBODY can tell me what to do". Shell's bunch says "Yep, there's the PROOF that AFRA pulls Billy's strings"

Big F*cking deal. “[mincing] Stop it, Billy. We didn’t mean it when we said you should do this. Naughty Billy. [wink wink].” and “Oh darn, he won’t listen to me.” Bullshit.

     Put it on the AFRA web site and the AFRA groups that AFRA CONDEMNS BILLY WISEMAN AND HIS SHITTY WEB SITE every day that site remains up and admit everything AFRA sent to him, admit all the help AFRA membership gave him, and tell us all why, what positive outcome you all hoped to accomplish.

    Until then, liar liar pants on fire. Offense intended.

. Gawd that's stupid logic.

As for Wiseman's website, as far as I am concerned, it is a pure evil pile of crap.

Actually, it’s damning for AFRA logic, given the evidence that I’ve accumulated since the site started at the request of AFRA leadership and membership.

   Billy, the retard, blabs, Leonard. He blabs to my spies. AFRA IS inextricably intertwined with the Bully Monster because Billy has said it is and because AFRA leadership has also slipped similar confessions to my spies. Dumbasses. Offense intended.

Likewise, the Bad Advocate List is an even more evil pile of crap. That filthy, pornographic page about me is sickening and uncalled-for.

Yeah, I agree, it has deterorated since I gave it away. Too bad you bashed me so much about it when I had it. YOU SHOULD HAVE LEFT ME ALONE LIKE I ASKED, LEONARD, and I would never have had to give it away - for all the peace THAT got me.

   Gee, I guess the graphic content offends you, Leonard. What a shame. I laughed so hard when I saw that that I nearly peed my pants. I guess The Editors don’t know or don’t care about you being sick.

    Looks like Leonard can dish it out, but he can’t take it. Sucks, doesn’t it, Leonard, that I have no control over that filthy pornographic page about you. Hey. . .I just remembered, YOU were the one that talked publicly about your [ahem] useless, “hangy down” penis, first, weren’t you?

   What is that with AFRA leadership talking publicly about their private parts? What makes you all think we even care about them? Don’t you think it was disgusting to your readership that you TOLD them about that? Where on earth does this kind of crap come from in that messed up mind of yours where you think such content is appropriate with professionals? Offense intended.

Yeah, it's really cool to make fun of a sick man whose date with death is accelerated by 30 years for the simple reason that I worked really hard at some really dirty jobs in some really nasty conditions.

ALERT ALERT - shameless ploy for sympathy

#9 Regarding "I don't think Leonard has any control TO do anything." Well yeah, I do still have control in AFRA if I wanted to.

I knew it. Same old Leonard. Same old tactics. Does this mean you are taking the responsibility for what AFRA has done since you resigned? NOT. Offense intended.

    Kay, you owe me a candy bar.

I nor AFRA certainly do have control over Wiseman, and more than you do.

Yeah, it looks like you all lost control of the monster you created. But AFRA disclaimers came too little, too late. Now, you admit you have control over AFRA and you just let them do all their dirty deeds. . .that admission is all I needed from you. Sucks to be you. Offense and intimidation intended.

No, Leonard has not been "kicked out". I happily gave AFRA over to the Board of Directors. I just got to the point that I couldn't afford to care anymore because it was too hard on my health.

As for the first guy I turned AFRA over to, my conjecture is that he quickly figured out that AFRA could never be turned into the big, bad police like Suzanne has always wanted. So he decided to bail before he found himself on the outs with SS.

What a bunch of Leonard bullshit. You forgot Greg and I negotiated a contract agreeable to all, and Tower/Hinger/Keifer sabotaged it. There was nothing in that contract about AFRA policing anyone. In fact, I would like Greg to publish that contract on this list, so all can see what I wanted and what I was giving - NOT what Greg asked for. . .what I OFFERED.

    The difference between you and Greg is that Greg and I have had our differences, been on the outs as you put it. Yet we remain friends and associates. Why? Because we do something YOU are incapable of. . .we treat each other with dignity and respect, even if we disagree. Neither one of us tries to control the other. WE can agree to disagree and not let those disagreements define our relationship. We can be honest without being derogatory or abusive. You could learn how to be a real man from Greg.

    I will not intrude upon Greg’s prerogative to disclose his reasons for leaving AFRA because he has been very discreet about that. I can say that *I* had nothing to do with his decision, and I didn’t even know he was considering it. By the time I learned of it, it was a done deal.

#10 AFRA doesn't cause or encourage people to become rowdy scrappers. Blah blah blah . .the top battle royale".

Blah blah blah. . .meaningless rhetoric.

    My essay on AFRA is at www.badadvocates.com AFRA page.

As for the rest of the crap, it's just figments of your obsessive imaginations. AFRA isn't "out to get you". Get over it.

I again refer you to www.badadvocates.com AFRA page, Leonard Henderson page and others for the documentation proving AFRA is out to get us.

    Typical of Leonard. . .he forgot to ENFORCE the official AFRA policy and the attacks ensued. Care to hear about the faculty contract with a national education company AFRA cost me? Or how AFRA got my web site shut down? And my business services, internet access and more? Maybe how AFRA contacted the prosecutors here and the attorneys in the Internet Archive lawsuit. What about the false kiddie porn complaints (plural) to the FBI? Or the false extortion complaints against me to two law enforcement agencies? What about Hinger’s bullshit request for protective order against me? What about the influx of AFRA cyberstalking where ever there is an article about me where they talk lies about my family members? What about the lies they publish about me falsely citing criminal convictions and other libel per se? What about AFRA’s pervasive false advertising about me and my business? Let me guess. . .these were all figments of my imagination. It never happened. Get over it? NEVER, you asshole. . .not without complete admissions and apologies. Should I go on. . .? I can. And it is ALL documented.

      I MIGHT believe you if Tower withdraws his stupid lawsuit and apologizes - if everyone apologizes and admits what they did. That might indicate some good faith by AFRA but I seriously doubt AFRA is up to the task, because AFRA is corrupt to the core. Because AFRA’s official policy is that this didn’t happen, they didn’t do it and even if they did, there was nothing wrong with it. Offense intended.

It is grossly unfair for me to be the object of such hatred. Especially when every single accusation has been an invention and the series totals up to a FABLE.

You EARNED it Leonard. Go back to your page at badadvocates.com and read what you wrote about me and come back and tell me there was nothing wrong. If this is a fable, YOU wrote the story. READ YOUR WORDS as if I were writing about you. If you don’t get it, then rot in your misery as a hypocrite. If you do get it, then be man, own it and make it right.

I did say "Ms. Shell, tear down this Bad Advocate List". She has never done anything I told her to either.

COMMENT: THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE

I don’t HAVE to do what YOU tell me, Leonard. I get to do what I want to do and what you want can be damned. Get used to that. I am the woman who you cannot control. Not with shallow flattery, not by cajoling, not with threats and not with abuse. You have met your match.

   THAT is what you are so pissed about. YOU can’t make me do what you want. From my perspective, You aren’t man enough to control me - no man is. What you don’t get it is a real man doesn’t have to control a woman to prove his manhood.

    A real man treats a woman with respect and dignity and independence. What you failed to consider was that you would be publicly emasculated if I were unable to be controlled. What humiliation for you, that you will NEVER control me, I will NEVER do what you tell me if I don’t want to, and you can’t make me. Neither can your battering buddies Tower, Hinger, Blair, et al.

     You are not worthy to influence me, Leonard. All the power tools that you have used on women all your life don’t work on me. I simply pull the plug and you are left limp and dead. You can scream at the tools, pound them, throw them, but they don’t work on me. Get used to it. You’ve tried and failed, when treating me with dignity and respect would have gotten you a whole lot further. But you were too prideful for that. Look what it got you. . .sucks to be you. At long last, the world gets to watch me rub salt in the wounds to your fragile male ego. Offense and intimidation intended.