Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
even a twisted moral imperative.

Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
like a small intervention.

Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
>
> Hi I am,
> It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet. 
So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
>
> --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom  wrote:
>
>
> From: iam999freedom
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
>
> Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
>
> I AM
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it
when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
good.  But when people are hurt,
>  there are always others
> > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned. 
After all, most of them are so
>  busy hiding their
> > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide
from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit
that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break
but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my
heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving
hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even
begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar
doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the
lem and the
>  other leaders of
> > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
> >
> > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: prometheus_973
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > I'm not so sure that humans
> > will ever become like, God,
> > our imagined or possible
> > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > not in any lifetime soon.
> >
> > But, it could be that the
> > universe(s) just happened
> > and that the remnants of
> > other life forms were spread
> > to this planet, and others,
> > via space rubble... from
> > destroyed civilizations
> > and planets. Or, was it an
> > intentional seeding by an
> > advanced race... which was,
> > itself, seeded by another
> > advanced race etc.
> >
> > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > experiences we have
> > are the result of
> > interaction with the
> > quantum mechanical
> > field?
> >
> > Anyway, it seems to me
> > that what really matters
> > are relationships. It's our
> > relationships with others,
> > even strangers, that matter
> > most. This is how we really
> > learn and grow. Loving
> > relationships are valuable.
> >
> > Klemp, and others like
> > him, are: liars; posers;
> > have arrested development;
> > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > and are even psychopathic.
> > They are incapable of learning,
> > or caring about others (are
> > unloving) and attempt to
> > impede social progress and
> > justice. They use the rest of
> > us for their own personal
> > greed and selfish desires.
> >
> > Then, again, this strife and
> > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > created can make life interesting
> > and a challenge, although,
> > it can/will also be physically
> > and emotionally painful.
> >
> > But, having a regular life
> > without additional commitments
> > and involvements can also
> > offer rewarding experiences
> > and insights. We are never
> > all that alone. However, I'm
> > not sure how peace of any
> > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > will ever happen in a world
> > controlled by sociopaths.
> >
> > One must care about everyone
> > and have caring relationships
> > with people in order for humankind
> > to advance and survive. To me,
> > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > I almost included animals, too,
> > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > include "caring" about them (all)
> > too.
> >
> > How can one really "care" about
> > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > except to keep them away from
> > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > people.
> >
> > When one thinks about it the
> > definition of what's "normal"
> > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > seem to be more pathological
> > than the introverts don't you
> > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > to force us introverts to become
> > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > loves company I suppose or is
> > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > is more intimidating.
> >
> > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > to worship and viewed as being
> > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > from "us" being involved in our
> > lives because of the differences
> > we see in one another. This is
> > why there are so many different
> > religious dogmas of what's right
> > and wrong.
> >
> > Therefore, the differences in the
> > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > nor take responsibility for our own
> > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > use God as our scape goat.
> >
> > There are major flaws with all
> > of these religions and the so-called
> > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > all hearsay and the only thing
> > that, supposedly, gives them
> > validation is that these various
> > people in history/myth that the
> > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > to have said or done some nice,
> > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > time (being ancient) seems to
> > have given them credibility, because
> > it is believed and taught that
> > only Divine Intercession could
> > have been the source for their
> > Divine Inspiration.
> >
> > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > today, who are not even followers
> > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > of these major and minor religions.
> > Many of these people inspired
> > others by never giving up in time
> > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > there weren't many other choices.
> > Even those who did give up and
> > had bad things befall them, still,
> > maintained their faith and this
> > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > or saints. If this is the standard
> > for religions there are an awful
> > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > that just as deluded and desperate.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > with unconditional love for the
> > master and you get a submissive
> > control pattern as your reward.
> > Buyer beware!
> >
> > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy."
> >
> > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> >
> > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> >
> > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> >
> > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> >
> > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > that it would ever be necessary.
> >
> > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Non and All,
> > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > summary. I was exploring
> > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > and saw a reference to a
> > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > >
> > > This person is mentioned
> > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > Faith.
> > >
> > > Even when God seems to
> > > turn his back and: causes
> > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > and killed, one is to have
> > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > reward for keeping this
> > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > you to believe in him
> > > regardless of what pain
> > > he allows to befall you.
> > >
> > > One needs to project
> > > a sense of hope in order
> > > to better endure life, as
> > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > >
> > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > challenges when you believe
> > > that God is on your side and
> > > not that of your oppressor.
> > >
> > > However, does God really
> > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > is/was created in man's image.
> > >
> > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy.
> > >
> > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > deserved the punishments as
> > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > most religions see everyday
> > > living and hardships as a test
> > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > to donate money to support
> > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > says and promises the same
> > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > hereafter.
> > >
> > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > admit.
> > >
> > > Well, got to go now....
> > > I just had some thoughts
> > > to share.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > "Non" wrote:
> > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > answers to ask the master etc.
> > >
> > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > >
> > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > >
> > > Non ;)
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Janice,
> > > Yes, one would think that
> > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > would, at least, attempt
> > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > that's not the case with
> > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > out there by demonstrating
> > > his powers? It's not like
> > > he announced to the
> > > whole world that he was....
> > > oh wait, he did!
> > >
> > > That was a long time ago
> > > and he never did make
> > > any predictions as most
> > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > made some predictions.
> > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > mine and that's why he
> > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > as a real prophet.
> > >
> > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > cautious of being too
> > > direct and understood.
> > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > imagine what they want,
> > > need and expect until
> > > they go too far and have
> > > to have a behaviour
> > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > perspective when he tells
> > > a story.
> > >
> > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > why put too much
> > > effort into it! And, he
> > > figures that all he needs
> > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > will substitute Soul for
> > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > >
> > > It's really quite amazing
> > > how simple Klemp's
> > > redundant message is.
> > > If EKists would just compare
> > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > leaders one would have
> > > to wonder what they see
> > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > but they just laugh at his
> > > quirkiness because he's
> > > operating on so many
> > > high planes of consciousness
> > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > >
> > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > park with the current Dali
> > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > religion while Eckankar
> > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > the two leaders and how
> > > they present themselves
> > > and what they have to say.
> > >
> > > Will ECKists make the
> > > comparison? No, of course
> > > not! They won't even allow
> > > the door to be opened a
> > > crack because some light
> > > might get in and show
> > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > handle the Truth and
> > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > what would they replace
> > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > responsibility to think for
> > > oneself and exercise free
> > > will. And, it would make
> > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > of those EK friends.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
is
> > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > charlatan to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people can increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found
out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the
messages) since December 30th.

Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"  wrote:
>
> Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of
my dark side. (half-joking).
>
> Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
>
> Cheers,
> I AM
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> >
> > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account
has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last
couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every
six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I
unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"  wrote:
> > >
> > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment,
yeah sure).
> > >
> > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
> > >
> > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural
phenomenon.
> > >
> > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
> > >
> > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Etznab and All,
> > > > Yes, the gospel here:
> > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
> > > > had a very warped way
> > > > of viewing women as
> > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
> > > > that Lilith was created
> > > > in the same way as Adam
> > > > and was his equal, but
> > > > she didn't want to stay
> > > > with Adam, she was more
> > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
> > > > a tool, was domineering
> > > > and only wanted sex.
> > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
> > > > if she could be with
> > > > him in Heaven and this
> > > > was granted. Therefore,
> > > > Lilith was not a demon
> > > > and evil but was actually
> > > > very spiritual.
> > > >
> > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
> > > > has a different take on Lilith.
> > > > She was the first Vampire and
> > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > > etznab wrote:
> > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
> > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
> > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
> > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
> > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
> > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
> > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
> > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
> > > >
> > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
> > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
> > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
> > > >
> > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
> > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
> > > > 82gz2n-WqA
> > > >
> > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
> > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
> > > >
> > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
> > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
> > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
> > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
> > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
> > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
> > > >
> > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
> > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
> > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
> > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
> > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
> > > > where and how they even evolved.
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > >
> > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
> > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
> > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
> > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
> > > >
> > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
> > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
> > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
> > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
> > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
> > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
> > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
> > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Non wrote:
> > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
> > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
> > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
> > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
> > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
> > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
> > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
> > > >
> > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
> > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
> > > >
> > > > Non ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
   > > > >
> > > > > Hello All,
> > > > > It's all interesting mental
> > > > > gymnastics and circular
> > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
> > > > > When reading about lila I
> > > > > thought of Lillith and how
> > > > > God kept screwing up in
> > > > > order to please Adam.
> > > > >
> > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

"However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It
states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

***

Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the
spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." -
S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

Compare with:

"The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let
us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this
earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout
the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable
spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

and (this is the older version)

"Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout
the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable
spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation
complete."

http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and
Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by
Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book
(Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in
LTG.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello I Am,
> Okay, let me give it
> a shot and use some
> excerpts etc.
>
> HK's talking about
> psychological studies
> using identical twins
> (not conjoined) that
> were separated soon
> after birth. They grew
> up elsewhere and had
> different influences
> but dressed the same
> and had the same type
> of dog and gave the
> dog the same name etc.,
> etc.
>
> Thus, it seems that
> Free Will relies upon
> genetics (nature) more
> than it does upon nurture,
> although, HK says that
> Yogi Berra stated that
> "in theory, practice doesn't
> matter; in practice, it does."
>
> BTW- According to Klemp
> "The Lords of Karma have
> selected a body with the
> appropriate genes for each
> student."
>
> However, HK has somewhat
> contradicted what is in CH.
> 3 of the Shariyat. It states
> that "the spiritual workers
> created man and placed
> within him a living imperishable
> Spirit, called Soul."
>
> There is no other mention
> of these "spiritual workers."
>
> Anywho-
>
> HK is so clever the way
> he'll twist a quote to add
> even more confusion to
> his message of absolute
> servitude and obedience.
>
> I counted HK using "But"
> four times. In an old H.I.
> Letter he said never to
> use "But" with one another
> and that it was a nail in
> the coffin of invention and
> took away from what was
> previously said.
>
> HK:
> "BUT they dug in their heels
> at the finding that such twins'
> IQs were nearly as similar as
> their heights."
>
> "The hamster's destiny is firmly
> set. A kind owner may let it out
> into the room on occasion. BUT
> it is still in a house."
>
> "Researchers, too, can advance
> only to a fixed point in their studies
> of what elements make up a whole
> individual. BUT they do not have
> a magical key to the spiritual self.
> The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
>
> Funny that Klemp states that he
> holds "a magical key" to control
> others like a Black Magician would.
>
> "The Mahanta alone can help people
> out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
> must have the right kind and amount
> of daily experiences."
>
> I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
> and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
> Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
> the "right kind and amount of daily
> experiences."
>
> Yes, Klemp like most religionists
> doesn't like science and psychologists
> since getting locked up in an asylum
> and having to "play-the-game" to
> be released early.
>
> HK states that "Real free will rests
> entirely on trusting the Master's
> prompts [signs?] as to which of
> many choices to make in all things
> human and divine."
>
> In other words do as I say not
> as I do and there is no such
> thing as Free Will for ECKists.
> Does that kind sound like Cult
> think? Klemp is getting nuttier
> and scarier! HK goes on to say
> that "He gives suggestions" and
> "seldom does he issue directives...
> True Free Will of an individual
> stands upon the Mahanta's
> guidance."
>
> Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
> as he speaks from experience:
> "Master Magicians turn subjects'
> ingrained ideas about patterns
> against them. A subject thinks
> he has the quick mind and eyes
> to catch a Magician in an act,
> even while he is being unburdened
> of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
> That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
> played upon people by illusion."
>
> "Again, keep in-touch with the
> Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
> exercises," but write those snail-
> mail IROs so I'll know what you're
> thinking and so I can use those
> stories for my next book.
>
>
> iam999freedom wrote:
> Hi Prometheus,
>
> On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
> "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
> "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
>
> Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
> turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
> been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
> and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
> different character than the other."
>
> I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
> Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
morning
> on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
>
> I still have yet to receive a response.
>
> I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
Note
> that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
>
> Thanks,
> I AM
>
>
>
>
> prometheus_wrote:
> >
> > The December 2012
> > Eckankar Mystic World
> > in the Ask the Master
> > section are two interesting
> > questions and answers.
> >
> > The first question has
> > to do with Stress and
> > how to overcome it.
> >
> > HK's answer is wishy-
> > washy at best. He says
> > that stress is "very
> > uncomfortable... Yet
> > stress is a good teacher."
> >
> > Klemp goes on to say
> > that people increase
> > their tolerance to stress
> > by eating healthy, getting
> > enough sleep, and by
> > "Reducing our overuse
> > of electronic devices."
> >
> > In other words it seems
> > Klemp is saying, in a
> > roundabout way, to use
> > moderation. After all,
> > he's saying to reduce
> > "overuse."
> >
> > Then, again, how does
> > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > not use their computer
> > 8 hours a day?
> >
> > The next question involves
> > reincarnation. This guy's
> > wife gave birth to a baby
> > boy and two days later his
> > mother translated (died).
> > He indirectly asked if this
> > new baby was his mother.
> >
> > Instead of giving this EKist
> > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > When it comes to rebirth,
> > anything at all can happen...
> > Whichever Soul is now your
> > son, everything is in accord
> > with what is best for all around."
> >
> > Prometheus
>

Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was
mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings
are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's
article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and
influence of genes.

My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great
influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's
experiences.

Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one
gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space"
about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the
universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as
whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or
DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that
life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual
character. Even with identical twins.

The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to
any number of other things, IMO.

I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

Consider the following:

Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

"The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic
inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event
of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of
the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the
red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that
this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and
that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent,
not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_in\
heritance

"A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given
to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain
that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello I AM and All,
> Actually Klemp did cite some
> studies and I Googled it myself
> and saw that there is proof that
> identical twins share similarities.
> The mirrored behaviors could
> be genetical with brain frequencies
> and brain function being the
> same due to a quantum mechanical
> influence. I threw that last one
> in on my own, but who knows?
>
> I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
> use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
> Twin Soul concept. But, he did
> use the Lords of Karma ruse
> which, BTW, is not solely owned
> by Eckankar.
>
> Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
> to get new members by promising
> "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
> Liberation" but then he switches
> it up and demands (suggests)
> Mahanta Codependency and Sales
> Team participation in order to,
> possibly, get promoted and receive
> "Spiritual Rewards."
>
> It is funny that Klemp claims to
> take "Free Will" away from Souls
> who join Eckankar and follow him.
> Does this mean that those Souls
> who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
> have Free Will? It sounds like it!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> iam999freedom wrote:
> Hi Prometheus,
> Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
> improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same
type
> of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
> perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
> do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
> the environment.
>
> As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
> each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
> merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
>
> According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
> right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
> listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
>
> What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
> Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and
love
> etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
> prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
>
> I AM
>
> prometheus_973" wrote:
> >
> > Hello I Am,
> > Okay, let me give it
> > a shot and use some
> > excerpts etc.
> >
> > HK's talking about
> > psychological studies
> > using identical twins
> > (not conjoined) that
> > were separated soon
> > after birth. They grew
> > up elsewhere and had
> > different influences
> > but dressed the same
> > and had the same type
> > of dog and gave the
> > dog the same name etc.,
> > etc.
> >
> > Thus, it seems that
> > Free Will relies upon
> > genetics (nature) more
> > than it does upon nurture,
> > although, HK says that
> > Yogi Berra stated that
> > "in theory, practice doesn't
> > matter; in practice, it does."
> >
> > BTW- According to Klemp
> > "The Lords of Karma have
> > selected a body with the
> > appropriate genes for each
> > student."
> >
> > However, HK has somewhat
> > contradicted what is in CH.
> > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
> > that "the spiritual workers
> > created man and placed
> > within him a living imperishable
> > Spirit, called Soul."
> >
> > There is no other mention
> > of these "spiritual workers."
> >
> > Anywho-
> >
> > HK is so clever the way
> > he'll twist a quote to add
> > even more confusion to
> > his message of absolute
> > servitude and obedience.
> >
> > I counted HK using "But"
> > four times. In an old H.I.
> > Letter he said never to
> > use "But" with one another
> > and that it was a nail in
> > the coffin of invention and
> > took away from what was
> > previously said.
> >
> > HK:
> > "BUT they dug in their heels
> > at the finding that such twins'
> > IQs were nearly as similar as
> > their heights."
> >
> > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
> > set. A kind owner may let it out
> > into the room on occasion. BUT
> > it is still in a house."
> >
> > "Researchers, too, can advance
> > only to a fixed point in their studies
> > of what elements make up a whole
> > individual. BUT they do not have
> > a magical key to the spiritual self.
> > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
> >
> > Funny that Klemp states that he
> > holds "a magical key" to control
> > others like a Black Magician would.
> >
> > "The Mahanta alone can help people
> > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
> > must have the right kind and amount
> > of daily experiences."
> >
> > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
> > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
> > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
> > the "right kind and amount of daily
> > experiences."
> >
> > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
> > doesn't like science and psychologists
> > since getting locked up in an asylum
> > and having to "play-the-game" to
> > be released early.
> >
> > HK states that "Real free will rests
> > entirely on trusting the Master's
> > prompts [signs?] as to which of
> > many choices to make in all things
> > human and divine."
> >
> > In other words do as I say not
> > as I do and there is no such
> > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
> > Does that kind sound like Cult
> > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
> > and scarier! HK goes on to say
> > that "He gives suggestions" and
> > "seldom does he issue directives...
> > True Free Will of an individual
> > stands upon the Mahanta's
> > guidance."
> >
> > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
> > as he speaks from experience:
> > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
> > ingrained ideas about patterns
> > against them. A subject thinks
> > he has the quick mind and eyes
> > to catch a Magician in an act,
> > even while he is being unburdened
> > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
> > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
> > played upon people by illusion."
> >
> > "Again, keep in-touch with the
> > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
> > exercises," but write those snail-
> > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
> > thinking and so I can use those
> > stories for my next book.
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom wrote:
> > Hi Prometheus,
> >
> > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
about
> > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
myself:
> > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
> >
> > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
> > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
> > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
> > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
> > different character than the other."
> >
> > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the
Wisdom
> > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
> morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
> >
> > I still have yet to receive a response.
> >
> > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
> Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > I AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > prometheus_wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

Some excerpts for consideration (Not saying I subscribe, or believe, all that
was mentioned on the following page).

"One can simply use words and sentences of the human language! This, too, was
experimentally proven! Living DNA substance (in living tissue, not in vitro)
will always react to language-modulated laser rays and even to radio waves, if
the proper frequencies are being used."

"Esoteric and spiritual teachers have known for ages that our body is
programmable by language, words and thought."

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=28103

***

Some other topic-related articles.

"Eastern philosophy guru Deepak Chopra says he has one way to reform our sorry
state of health care: by reconnecting with our spiritual side. [....] In a phone
interview, Chopra said that what we think and how we feel physically change our
brains and bodies. He pointed to research on neuropeptides, which are
protein-like molocules used by brain cells to communicate information to one
another.
    "Thinking a thought or feeling an emotion, he said, causes a synapse to fire
neuropeptides not just to other brain cells, but to cells throughout the body
including the immune system. Once a cell receives a   neuropeptide, he added,
its information changes that cell down to the genetic level.
   " 'Now we're starting to see that how you behave, how you think,   your
personal relationships, social interactions, environment, diet, stress levels,
they all modulate the activities of your genes,' he said. 'So what you think can
change your genes and the structure of your brain.' [....] Chopra is a medically
trained endocrinologist and former chief of staff at New England Memorial
Hospital during the 1970s. He said he quit traditional   medicine because 'we
were acting like legalized drug pushers and prolonging suffering.' [....]"

[Based on: Article (Eastern philosopher stresses the biology of happiness /
Deepak Chopra says what we think and how we feel   physically change our brains
and bodies.) by Cynthia Billhartz Gregorian, pp. B1 & B3, S.L.P.D., 10/15/09]

"Researchers from ETH Zurich have fitted human cells with a synthetic signaling
cascade that can be used to switch on and regulate genes via blue light. [....]
The calcium inside the cell activates an enzyme that separates the phosphate
group (P) from the protein NFAT-P. NFAT thus enters the cell nucleus, where it
binds to a synthetic control sequence and switches on the target gene the
researchers have introduced. The gene becomes active and the cell produces
numerous copies of the protein, for which the gene is the blueprint. By
controlling the amount of light and its intensity,   the researchers can also
regulate how much of the protein is produced. Switching the gene off is easy:
light off, gene off. After all, without light melanopsin   is no longer
stimulated, no more calcium accumulates in the cells and the signal cascade is
interrupted. [....]" [Based on: ScienceDaily article (Genes at the Flick of a
Light Switch: Human Cells Fitted With Synthetic   Signaling Cascade), June 22,
2011]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110623141200.htm

"Autism is not caused by one or two major gene defects but by hundreds of small
genetic mutations, many of which are no inherited   but arise spontaneously,
according to research published Wednesday [06/08/11]. In three studies appearing
in the journal Neuron, researchers paint the disorder   that affects one in 110
U.S. children as a complete puzzle of genetic miscues that causes dysfunction in
the brain's synapses - critical junctions between   nerve cells. [....]" [Based
on: Article (Study paints autism as a genetic puzzle), p. A12, S.L.P.D.,
06/09/11]

***

Besides the above there are environmental factors which can influence a person's
genes. Including radiations, genetically modified plants and animals, etc.

Some others ...

***

Identical twins are not quite as identical as once thought, according to a new
study of DNA.

Life, it seems, changes everyone in unique ways.

One twin might get cancer while the the other is not susceptible, for example.
Many identical twins clearly behave differently as they grow older, and some
even grow to look less alike.

Such differences have to do not with the twins' identical DNA, which is the
software of life, but in how genes express themselves, the research found. The
differences stem from chemical modifications in the genes over the years.

These epigenetic effects, as they are called, are the result of chemical
exposure, dietary habits and other environmental factors, the scientists
believe. [...]

Gene expression and behavior is altered by a process called methylation.
Scientists think a better understanding of methylation could aid cancer
research.

"One would expect identical twins to develop and express genes at the same
levels, but in fact this changes over time," Plass said. "We think that
methylation plays a genome-wide role in these changes."

http://www.livescience.com/3905-identical-twins-identical.html

Increasing evidence is revealing a role of methylation in the interaction of
environmental factors with genetic expression. Differences in maternal care
during the first 6 days of life in the rat induce differential methylation
patterns in some promoter regions, thus influencing gene expression.[7]
Furthermore, even-more-dynamic processes such as interleukin signaling have been
shown to be regulated by methylation.[8]

Research in humans has shown that repeated high level activation of the body's
stress system, especially in early childhood, can alter methylation processes
and lead to changes in the chemistry of the individual's DNA. The chemical
changes can disable genes and prevent the brain from properly regulating its
response to stress. Researchers and clinicians have drawn a link between this
neurochemical disregulation and the development of chronic health problems such
as depression, obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and coronary artery disease.
[9][10][11][12][13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylation

How much control do you really have over facial aging?

A new study of identical twins shows that life experiences and environmental
factors have a big effect on how fast or slowly our faces age. Researchers
recruited nearly 200 sets of identical twins who were attending the annual twin
festival in Twinsburg, Ohio.

Twin research is especially useful in the study of aging because twins are
"genetically programmed'' to age the same way, said study author Dr. Bahman
Guyuron, chairman of the department of plastic surgery at the University
Hospitals of Cleveland and Case Western Reserve University. As a result, any
perceived differences in appearance among twins can give clues as to what
environmental and lifestyle factors can strongly influence aging, he said. [...
.]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/twin-studies-explain-wrinkles-of-aging/

***

I suspect it is not only genes that determine behavior traits, but life and
environmental factors too. Adaptability and mutation are a part of evolution
wherein life forms struggle to survive. If everything were determined by genes
there probably wouldn't be so many species. Life forms would never evolve to
higher stages. What history shows is that life forms have ultimately been able
to surpass genetic disposition according to life choices and FREE WILL in spite
of genetic disposition.

Where was Harold K. going with his own article that mentioned genes I am still
not certain. Unless it were to show that karma and genes are not the final
determinants in a person's life. On that I agree. One could argue, however,
whether "Mahanta" is the only answer; when it (the word Mahanta) can be such a
"loaded" term.

Maybe there is something though, something like a "Higher Self" able to exercise
supernatural powers ... available to every individual regardless their religious
affiliation, or membership dues?

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
>
> Some excerpts for consideration (Not saying I subscribe, or believe, all that
was mentioned on the following page).
>
> "One can simply use words and sentences of the human language! This, too, was
experimentally proven! Living DNA substance (in living tissue, not in vitro)
will always react to language-modulated laser rays and even to radio waves, if
the proper frequencies are being used."
>
> "Esoteric and spiritual teachers have known for ages that our body is
programmable by language, words and thought."
>
> http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=28103
>
> ***
>
> Some other topic-related articles.
>
> "Eastern philosophy guru Deepak Chopra says he has one way to reform our sorry
state of health care: by reconnecting with our spiritual side. [....] In a phone
interview, Chopra said that what we think and how we feel physically change our
brains and bodies. He pointed to research on neuropeptides, which are
protein-like molocules used by brain cells to communicate information to one
another.
>    "Thinking a thought or feeling an emotion, he said, causes a synapse to
fire neuropeptides not just to other brain cells, but to cells throughout the
body including the immune system. Once a cell receives a   neuropeptide, he
added, its information changes that cell down to the genetic level.
>   " 'Now we're starting to see that how you behave, how you think,   your
personal relationships, social interactions, environment, diet, stress levels,
they all modulate the activities of your genes,' he said. 'So what you think can
change your genes and the structure of your brain.' [....] Chopra is a medically
trained endocrinologist and former chief of staff at New England Memorial
Hospital during the 1970s. He said he quit traditional   medicine because 'we
were acting like legalized drug pushers and prolonging suffering.' [....]"
>
> [Based on: Article (Eastern philosopher stresses the biology of happiness /
Deepak Chopra says what we think and how we feel   physically change our brains
and bodies.) by Cynthia Billhartz Gregorian, pp. B1 & B3, S.L.P.D., 10/15/09]
>
> "Researchers from ETH Zurich have fitted human cells with a synthetic
signaling cascade that can be used to switch on and regulate genes via blue
light. [....] The calcium inside the cell activates an enzyme that separates the
phosphate group (P) from the protein NFAT-P. NFAT thus enters the cell nucleus,
where it binds to a synthetic control sequence and switches on the target gene
the researchers have introduced. The gene becomes active and the cell produces
numerous copies of the protein, for which the gene is the blueprint. By
controlling the amount of light and its intensity,   the researchers can also
regulate how much of the protein is produced. Switching the gene off is easy:
light off, gene off. After all, without light melanopsin   is no longer
stimulated, no more calcium accumulates in the cells and the signal cascade is
interrupted. [....]" [Based on: ScienceDaily article (Genes at the Flick of a
Light Switch: Human Cells Fitted With Synthetic   Signaling Cascade), June 22,
2011]
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110623141200.htm
>
> "Autism is not caused by one or two major gene defects but by hundreds of
small genetic mutations, many of which are no inherited   but arise
spontaneously, according to research published Wednesday [06/08/11]. In three
studies appearing in the journal Neuron, researchers paint the disorder   that
affects one in 110 U.S. children as a complete puzzle of genetic miscues that
causes dysfunction in the brain's synapses - critical junctions between   nerve
cells. [....]" [Based on: Article (Study paints autism as a genetic puzzle), p.
A12, S.L.P.D., 06/09/11]
>
> ***
>
> Besides the above there are environmental factors which can influence a
person's genes. Including radiations, genetically modified plants and animals,
etc.
>

Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
as far as religion may be growing. :)

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non"  wrote:
>
> Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
even a twisted moral imperative.
>
> Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
like a small intervention.
>
> Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
>
> Non ;)
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
> >
> > Hi I am,
> > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet. 
So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
> >
> > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom  wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: iam999freedom
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> >
> > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
good.  But when people are hurt,
> >  there are always others
> > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned. 
After all, most of them are so
> >  busy hiding their
> > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. 
Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
that say about the lem and the
> >  other leaders of
> > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they
can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: prometheus_973
> > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > will ever become like, God,
> > > our imagined or possible
> > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > >
> > > But, it could be that the
> > > universe(s) just happened
> > > and that the remnants of
> > > other life forms were spread
> > > to this planet, and others,
> > > via space rubble... from
> > > destroyed civilizations
> > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > intentional seeding by an
> > > advanced race... which was,
> > > itself, seeded by another
> > > advanced race etc.
> > >
> > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > experiences we have
> > > are the result of
> > > interaction with the
> > > quantum mechanical
> > > field?
> > >
> > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > that what really matters
> > > are relationships. It's our
> > > relationships with others,
> > > even strangers, that matter
> > > most. This is how we really
> > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > relationships are valuable.
> > >
> > > Klemp, and others like
> > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > have arrested development;
> > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > or caring about others (are
> > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > impede social progress and
> > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > us for their own personal
> > > greed and selfish desires.
> > >
> > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > created can make life interesting
> > > and a challenge, although,
> > > it can/will also be physically
> > > and emotionally painful.
> > >
> > > But, having a regular life
> > > without additional commitments
> > > and involvements can also
> > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > and insights. We are never
> > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > not sure how peace of any
> > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > will ever happen in a world
> > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > >
> > > One must care about everyone
> > > and have caring relationships
> > > with people in order for humankind
> > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > too.
> > >
> > > How can one really "care" about
> > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > except to keep them away from
> > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > people.
> > >
> > > When one thinks about it the
> > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > seem to be more pathological
> > > than the introverts don't you
> > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > to force us introverts to become
> > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > is more intimidating.
> > >
> > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > lives because of the differences
> > > we see in one another. This is
> > > why there are so many different
> > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > and wrong.
> > >
> > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > use God as our scape goat.
> > >
> > > There are major flaws with all
> > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > validation is that these various
> > > people in history/myth that the
> > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > have given them credibility, because
> > > it is believed and taught that
> > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > have been the source for their
> > > Divine Inspiration.
> > >
> > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > today, who are not even followers
> > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > Many of these people inspired
> > > others by never giving up in time
> > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > Even those who did give up and
> > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > maintained their faith and this
> > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > for religions there are an awful
> > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > with unconditional love for the
> > > master and you get a submissive
> > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > Buyer beware!
> > >
> > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy."
> > >
> > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> > >
> > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> > >
> > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed
and
> > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> > >
> > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the
experiment
> > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> > >
> > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > > that it would ever be necessary.
> > >
> > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> > >
> > > I AM
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Non and All,
> > > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > > summary. I was exploring
> > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > > and saw a reference to a
> > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > > >
> > > > This person is mentioned
> > > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > > Faith.
> > > >
> > > > Even when God seems to
> > > > turn his back and: causes
> > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > > and killed, one is to have
> > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > > reward for keeping this
> > > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > > you to believe in him
> > > > regardless of what pain
> > > > he allows to befall you.
> > > >
> > > > One needs to project
> > > > a sense of hope in order
> > > > to better endure life, as
> > > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > > >
> > > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > > challenges when you believe
> > > > that God is on your side and
> > > > not that of your oppressor.
> > > >
> > > > However, does God really
> > > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > > is/was created in man's image.
> > > >
> > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > > an experiment to see if we
> > > > are all capable of evolving
> > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > > Are we to become more than
> > > > merely a divine thought?
> > > > Maybe there is something
> > > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > > analogy.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > > deserved the punishments as
> > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > > most religions see everyday
> > > > living and hardships as a test
> > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > > to donate money to support
> > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > > says and promises the same
> > > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > > hereafter.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > > admit.
> > > >
> > > > Well, got to go now....
> > > > I just had some thoughts
> > > > to share.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > "Non" wrote:
> > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > > answers to ask the master etc.
> > > >
> > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia
Lama
> > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to
question
> > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > > >
> > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way
to
> > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > > >
> > > > Non ;)
> > > >
> > > > prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Janice,
> > > > Yes, one would think that
> > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > > would, at least, attempt
> > > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > > that's not the case with
> > > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > > out there by demonstrating
> > > > his powers? It's not like
> > > > he announced to the
> > > > whole world that he was....
> > > > oh wait, he did!
> > > >
> > > > That was a long time ago
> > > > and he never did make
> > > > any predictions as most
> > > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > > made some predictions.
> > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > > mine and that's why he
> > > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > > as a real prophet.
> > > >
> > > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > > cautious of being too
> > > > direct and understood.
> > > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > > imagine what they want,
> > > > need and expect until
> > > > they go too far and have
> > > > to have a behaviour
> > > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > > perspective when he tells
> > > > a story.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > > why put too much
> > > > effort into it! And, he
> > > > figures that all he needs
> > > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > > will substitute Soul for
> > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > > >
> > > > It's really quite amazing
> > > > how simple Klemp's
> > > > redundant message is.
> > > > If EKists would just compare
> > > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > > leaders one would have
> > > > to wonder what they see
> > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > > but they just laugh at his
> > > > quirkiness because he's
> > > > operating on so many
> > > > high planes of consciousness
> > > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > > >
> > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > > park with the current Dali
> > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > > religion while Eckankar
> > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > > the two leaders and how
> > > > they present themselves
> > > > and what they have to say.
> > > >
> > > > Will ECKists make the
> > > > comparison? No, of course
> > > > not! They won't even allow
> > > > the door to be opened a
> > > > crack because some light
> > > > might get in and show
> > > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > > handle the Truth and
> > > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > > what would they replace
> > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > > responsibility to think for
> > > > oneself and exercise free
> > > > will. And, it would make
> > > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > > of those EK friends.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy
to say
> > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess
he is
> > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in
and ask
> > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > > charlatan to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The December 2012
> > > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > > in the Ask the Master
> > > > section are two interesting
> > > > questions and answers.
> > > >
> > > > The first question has
> > > > to do with Stress and
> > > > how to overcome it.
> > > >
> > > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > > washy at best. He says
> > > > that stress is "very
> > > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > > stress is a good teacher."
> > > >
> > > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > > that people can increase
> > > > their tolerance to stress
> > > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > > enough sleep, and by
> > > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > > of electronic devices."
> > > >
> > > > In other words it seems
> > > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > > roundabout way, to use
> > > > moderation. After all,
> > > > he's saying to reduce
> > > > "overuse."
> > > >
> > > > Then, again, how does
> > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > > not use their computer
> > > > 8 hours a day?
> > > >
> > > > The next question involves
> > > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > > boy and two days later his
> > > > mother translated (died).
> > > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > > new baby was his mother.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > > anything at all can happen...
> > > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > > son, everything is in accord
> > > > with what is best for all around."
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > >
> >
>

A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13

"[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well. I know
that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I
know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is
because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly
before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He
was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what
he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is
exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well. [... .]"

[Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
More Questions to Doug Marman]

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

My contributions to the "growing list".

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720

***

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
lGt1TvUM3Q

Hello Non and All,
Actually, having good
interactive relationships
with other people isn't
necessarily about making
new friends nor having
the same religious, political,
and lifestyle beliefs.
Trying to get others
to follow or accept our
beliefs isn't the goal.

It's more about being
"friendly" to/with/for
others and, thus, to
ourselves. Usually, being
friendly and promoting
"friendship" (versus making
friends) isn't that hard
to accomplish. And, if
it is, we need to make
more of an effort and
figure out what it is that's
making this difficult.

Smiles, politeness, sharing
some small talk, and recognizing
the other person by looking
directly at them goes a
long way.

We can have a friendship
(i.e. relationship) with a
clerk whose full name we
might not ever know. It's
fun to simply, and naturally,
smile and be friendly to
strangers and acquaintances
without expecting anything
else. It takes the pressure
off everyone when we keep
it light. This lightness of
Being will help to improve
our lives and that of others.

It's true that we will never
be able to be friendly with
some people. And, we won't
always be friends with those
people we know now. Some
people don't deserve our
efforts and will never deserve
it. They are enemies to what
we believe in.

And, not all relationships
work out nor need to be
continued for the sake of
all those involved. Sometimes
people just have to let go
and move on even with
family members. But, these
are usually relationships
that have become complicated
via various factors and are
usually more one-sided
due to a lack of communication,
closed mindedness and
hurt feelings.

Our positive relationships
with nature, to animals,
and to other people are
connections that make our
lives worth living.


Prometheus





"Non"  wrote:
Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
as far as religion may be growing. :)

Non ;)

"Non" wrote:
>
> Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
even a twisted moral imperative.
>
> Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
like a small intervention.
>
> Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
>
> Non ;)
>
Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
Hi I am,
It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
possible and let them go on their way.
Thanks for your comments.
> >
I AM wrote:
> >
Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> >
> > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> >
> > I AM
> >
Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >
Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
> > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they
use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving
eckist
tonight.
> > >

prometheus wrote:
> > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > will ever become like, God,
> > > our imagined or possible
> > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > >
> > > But, it could be that the
> > > universe(s) just happened
> > > and that the remnants of
> > > other life forms were spread
> > > to this planet, and others,
> > > via space rubble... from
> > > destroyed civilizations
> > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > intentional seeding by an
> > > advanced race... which was,
> > > itself, seeded by another
> > > advanced race etc.
> > >
> > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > experiences we have
> > > are the result of
> > > interaction with the
> > > quantum mechanical
> > > field?
> > >
> > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > that what really matters
> > > are relationships. It's our
> > > relationships with others,
> > > even strangers, that matter
> > > most. This is how we really
> > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > relationships are valuable.
> > >
> > > Klemp, and others like
> > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > have arrested development;
> > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > or caring about others (are
> > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > impede social progress and
> > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > us for their own personal
> > > greed and selfish desires.
> > >
> > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > created can make life interesting
> > > and a challenge, although,
> > > it can/will also be physically
> > > and emotionally painful.
> > >
> > > But, having a regular life
> > > without additional commitments
> > > and involvements can also
> > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > and insights. We are never
> > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > not sure how peace of any
> > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > will ever happen in a world
> > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > >
> > > One must care about everyone
> > > and have caring relationships
> > > with people in order for humankind
> > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > too.
> > >
> > > How can one really "care" about
> > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > except to keep them away from
> > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > people.
> > >
> > > When one thinks about it the
> > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > seem to be more pathological
> > > than the introverts don't you
> > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > to force us introverts to become
> > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > is more intimidating.
> > >
> > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > lives because of the differences
> > > we see in one another. This is
> > > why there are so many different
> > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > and wrong.
> > >
> > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > use God as our scape goat.
> > >
> > > There are major flaws with all
> > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > validation is that these various
> > > people in history/myth that the
> > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > have given them credibility, because
> > > it is believed and taught that
> > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > have been the source for their
> > > Divine Inspiration.
> > >
> > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > today, who are not even followers
> > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > Many of these people inspired
> > > others by never giving up in time
> > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > Even those who did give up and
> > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > maintained their faith and this
> > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > for religions there are an awful
> > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > with unconditional love for the
> > > master and you get a submissive
> > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > Buyer beware!
> > >
> > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy."

Hello Etznab,
What's this pertain to?
I wasn't able to pull these
sites up.

What's Marman saying
about "the Astral Library
dream"(of PT's?) being
misunderstood... in what
way?

What is the interpretation?
It's more than a metaphor
correct?

Didn't Klemp say that he,
too, visited the Astral Library
and saw Ancient manuscripts
with Twitchell's handwritten
notes scribbled in the margins.

It seems that only EKists have
access to this specific Astral
Plane Library and that it's a
really old style (ancient/wisdom
filled) library that, mostly, EKists
are taught to dream of and
conjure.

BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
So why believe anything Twitchell
said?

This is what bothered Klemp.
Klemp realized that Twitchell
was worse than Darwin! The
Astral Library story/dream was
B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
and Gross did. He rationalizes
it all away by thinking that he
is giving a select group of New
Agers something to believe in.
HK's giving them much of what
the other religions give: Faith;
Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
While taking their money and
being seen as Pope like by
being infallible and beyond
reproach.

Prometheus


"etznab18"  wrote:
A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13

"[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?

The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
gave those talks or started writing about it.

He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
as well. [... .]"

[Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
More Questions to Doug Marman]

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

My contributions to the "growing list".

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
r/Ref%23$2041391720

***

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
lGt1TvUM3Q

Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and
to each
other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the
continued effort.

Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
(At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Non and All,
> Actually, having good
> interactive relationships
> with other people isn't
> necessarily about making
> new friends nor having
> the same religious, political,
> and lifestyle beliefs.
> Trying to get others
> to follow or accept our
> beliefs isn't the goal.
>
> It's more about being
> "friendly" to/with/for
> others and, thus, to
> ourselves. Usually, being
> friendly and promoting
> "friendship" (versus making
> friends) isn't that hard
> to accomplish. And, if
> it is, we need to make
> more of an effort and
> figure out what it is that's
> making this difficult.
>
> Smiles, politeness, sharing
> some small talk, and recognizing
> the other person by looking
> directly at them goes a
> long way.
>
> We can have a friendship
> (i.e. relationship) with a
> clerk whose full name we
> might not ever know. It's
> fun to simply, and naturally,
> smile and be friendly to
> strangers and acquaintances
> without expecting anything
> else. It takes the pressure
> off everyone when we keep
> it light. This lightness of
> Being will help to improve
> our lives and that of others.
>
> It's true that we will never
> be able to be friendly with
> some people. And, we won't
> always be friends with those
> people we know now. Some
> people don't deserve our
> efforts and will never deserve
> it. They are enemies to what
> we believe in.
>
> And, not all relationships
> work out nor need to be
> continued for the sake of
> all those involved. Sometimes
> people just have to let go
> and move on even with
> family members. But, these
> are usually relationships
> that have become complicated
> via various factors and are
> usually more one-sided
> due to a lack of communication,
> closed mindedness and
> hurt feelings.
>
> Our positive relationships
> with nature, to animals,
> and to other people are
> connections that make our
> lives worth living.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
>
> "Non"  wrote:
> Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we
need
> to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
> done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making
new
> friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has
it's
> challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of
unaffiliated
> as far as religion may be growing. :)
>
> Non ;)
>
> "Non" wrote:
> >
> > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children,
to
> teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
> lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
> possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
> inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
> act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
> In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
> otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
> even a twisted moral imperative.
> >
> > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
> direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
> point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may
seem
> like a small intervention.
> >
> > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
> situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
> and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
> outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and
shocked
> at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
> and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your
own
> heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
> >
> > Non ;)
> >
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >
> Hi I am,
> It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
> we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
> So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
> possible and let them go on their way.
> Thanks for your comments.
> > >
> I AM wrote:
> > >
> Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
> regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
> meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> > >
> > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for
the
> sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to
the
> point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> > >
> > > I AM
> > >
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > >
> Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
> it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their
purposes,
> there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
> talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
> happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
> something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
> people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
> people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
> came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
> appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
> is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
> about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
> good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
> > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
> doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
> still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
> willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
> motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
> of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
> everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown
away
> by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
> strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
> broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
> takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
> the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
> After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
> hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
> admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
> sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
> knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
> have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
> even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
> heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
> rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
> Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
> others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
> pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
> that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they
> use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving
eckist
> tonight.
> > > >
>
> prometheus wrote:
> > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > > will ever become like, God,
> > > > our imagined or possible
> > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > > >
> > > > But, it could be that the
> > > > universe(s) just happened
> > > > and that the remnants of
> > > > other life forms were spread
> > > > to this planet, and others,
> > > > via space rubble... from
> > > > destroyed civilizations
> > > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > > intentional seeding by an
> > > > advanced race... which was,
> > > > itself, seeded by another
> > > > advanced race etc.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > > experiences we have
> > > > are the result of
> > > > interaction with the
> > > > quantum mechanical
> > > > field?
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > > that what really matters
> > > > are relationships. It's our
> > > > relationships with others,
> > > > even strangers, that matter
> > > > most. This is how we really
> > > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > > relationships are valuable.
> > > >
> > > > Klemp, and others like
> > > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > > have arrested development;
> > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > > or caring about others (are
> > > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > > impede social progress and
> > > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > > us for their own personal
> > > > greed and selfish desires.
> > > >
> > > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > > created can make life interesting
> > > > and a challenge, although,
> > > > it can/will also be physically
> > > > and emotionally painful.
> > > >
> > > > But, having a regular life
> > > > without additional commitments
> > > > and involvements can also
> > > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > > and insights. We are never
> > > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > > not sure how peace of any
> > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > > will ever happen in a world
> > > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > > >
> > > > One must care about everyone
> > > > and have caring relationships
> > > > with people in order for humankind
> > > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > > too.
> > > >
> > > > How can one really "care" about
> > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > > except to keep them away from
> > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > > people.
> > > >
> > > > When one thinks about it the
> > > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > > seem to be more pathological
> > > > than the introverts don't you
> > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > > to force us introverts to become
> > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > > is more intimidating.
> > > >
> > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > > lives because of the differences
> > > > we see in one another. This is
> > > > why there are so many different
> > > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > > and wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > > use God as our scape goat.
> > > >
> > > > There are major flaws with all
> > > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > > validation is that these various
> > > > people in history/myth that the
> > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > > have given them credibility, because
> > > > it is believed and taught that
> > > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > > have been the source for their
> > > > Divine Inspiration.
> > > >
> > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > > today, who are not even followers
> > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > > Many of these people inspired
> > > > others by never giving up in time
> > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > > Even those who did give up and
> > > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > > maintained their faith and this
> > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > > for religions there are an awful
> > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > > with unconditional love for the
> > > > master and you get a submissive
> > > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > > Buyer beware!
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > > an experiment to see if we
> > > > are all capable of evolving
> > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > > Are we to become more than
> > > > merely a divine thought?
> > > > Maybe there is something
> > > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > > analogy."
>

I can't seem to go for long now without my Yahoo emails bouncing. So, again, I
didn't get this message in my email folder and read it just now after visiting
the site.

Will try to elaborate in the future about the subject.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Etznab,
> What's this pertain to?
> I wasn't able to pull these
> sites up.
>
> What's Marman saying
> about "the Astral Library
> dream"(of PT's?) being
> misunderstood... in what
> way?
>
> What is the interpretation?
> It's more than a metaphor
> correct?
>
> Didn't Klemp say that he,
> too, visited the Astral Library
> and saw Ancient manuscripts
> with Twitchell's handwritten
> notes scribbled in the margins.
>
> It seems that only EKists have
> access to this specific Astral
> Plane Library and that it's a
> really old style (ancient/wisdom
> filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> are taught to dream of and
> conjure.
>
> BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> So why believe anything Twitchell
> said?
>
> This is what bothered Klemp.
> Klemp realized that Twitchell
> was worse than Darwin! The
> Astral Library story/dream was
> B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> and Gross did. He rationalizes
> it all away by thinking that he
> is giving a select group of New
> Agers something to believe in.
> HK's giving them much of what
> the other religions give: Faith;
> Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> While taking their money and
> being seen as Pope like by
> being infallible and beyond
> reproach.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> "etznab18"  wrote:
> A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
>
> "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
> misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
> I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
> but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
>
> The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> gave those talks or started writing about it.
>
> He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
> happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
> as well. [... .]"
>
> [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
> More Questions to Doug Marman]
>
> http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
>
> My contributions to the "growing list".
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
> r/Ref%23$2041391720
>
> ***
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
> lGt1TvUM3Q
>

Really! This is a valid spiritual
technique that, unlike those
HK hands out and sells, actually
works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVdKQ0I35qo

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non"  wrote:
>
> Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
> probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves
and to each
> other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
> doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the
continued effort.
>
> Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was
visiting
> a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
> Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
> strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
> (At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
> highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will
take
> your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.
>
> Non ;)
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Non and All,
> > Actually, having good
> > interactive relationships
> > with other people isn't
> > necessarily about making
> > new friends nor having
> > the same religious, political,
> > and lifestyle beliefs.
> > Trying to get others
> > to follow or accept our
> > beliefs isn't the goal.
> >
> > It's more about being
> > "friendly" to/with/for
> > others and, thus, to
> > ourselves. Usually, being
> > friendly and promoting
> > "friendship" (versus making
> > friends) isn't that hard
> > to accomplish. And, if
> > it is, we need to make
> > more of an effort and
> > figure out what it is that's
> > making this difficult.
> >
> > Smiles, politeness, sharing
> > some small talk, and recognizing
> > the other person by looking
> > directly at them goes a
> > long way.
> >
> > We can have a friendship
> > (i.e. relationship) with a
> > clerk whose full name we
> > might not ever know. It's
> > fun to simply, and naturally,
> > smile and be friendly to
> > strangers and acquaintances
> > without expecting anything
> > else. It takes the pressure
> > off everyone when we keep
> > it light. This lightness of
> > Being will help to improve
> > our lives and that of others.
> >
> > It's true that we will never
> > be able to be friendly with
> > some people. And, we won't
> > always be friends with those
> > people we know now. Some
> > people don't deserve our
> > efforts and will never deserve
> > it. They are enemies to what
> > we believe in.
> >
> > And, not all relationships
> > work out nor need to be
> > continued for the sake of
> > all those involved. Sometimes
> > people just have to let go
> > and move on even with
> > family members. But, these
> > are usually relationships
> > that have become complicated
> > via various factors and are
> > usually more one-sided
> > due to a lack of communication,
> > closed mindedness and
> > hurt feelings.
> >
> > Our positive relationships
> > with nature, to animals,
> > and to other people are
> > connections that make our
> > lives worth living.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Non"  wrote:
> > Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we
need
> > to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said
than
> > done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making
new
> > friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has
it's
> > challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of
unaffiliated
> > as far as religion may be growing. :)
> >
> > Non ;)
> >
> > "Non" wrote:
> > >
> > > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children,
to
> > teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written
a
> > lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
> > possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
> > inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity
to
> > act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some
may.
> > In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against
them,
> > otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow
as
> > even a twisted moral imperative.
> > >
> > > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain
malevolent
> > direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at
some
> > point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may
seem
> > like a small intervention.
> > >
> > > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
> > situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally
con
> > and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
> > outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and
shocked
> > at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be
vigilant,
> > and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your
own
> > heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
> > >
> > > Non ;)
> > >
> > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > >
> > Hi I am,
> > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
> > we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much
yet.
> > So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
> > possible and let them go on their way.
> > Thanks for your comments.
> > > >
> > I AM wrote:
> > > >
> > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
> > regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
> > meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> > > >
> > > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for
the
> > sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to
the
> > point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > I AM
> > > >
> > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > > >
> > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
> > it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their
purposes,
> > there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
> > talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
> > happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
> > something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
> > people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
> > people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
> > came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
> > appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think
there
> > is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the
most
> > about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
> > good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
> > > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
> > doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
> > still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
> > willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern
the
> > motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
> > of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts
us
> > everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown
away
> > by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
> > strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
> > broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
> > takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really
see
> > the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
> > After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> > > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
> > hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
> > admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may
not
> > sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with
the
> > knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
> > have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
> > even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
> > heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
> > rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
> > Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
> > others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
> > pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
> > that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those
they
> > use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving
eckist
> > tonight.
> > > > >
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > > > will ever become like, God,
> > > > > our imagined or possible
> > > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, it could be that the
> > > > > universe(s) just happened
> > > > > and that the remnants of
> > > > > other life forms were spread
> > > > > to this planet, and others,
> > > > > via space rubble... from
> > > > > destroyed civilizations
> > > > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > > > intentional seeding by an
> > > > > advanced race... which was,
> > > > > itself, seeded by another
> > > > > advanced race etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > > > experiences we have
> > > > > are the result of
> > > > > interaction with the
> > > > > quantum mechanical
> > > > > field?
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > > > that what really matters
> > > > > are relationships. It's our
> > > > > relationships with others,
> > > > > even strangers, that matter
> > > > > most. This is how we really
> > > > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > > > relationships are valuable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Klemp, and others like
> > > > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > > > have arrested development;
> > > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > > > or caring about others (are
> > > > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > > > impede social progress and
> > > > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > > > us for their own personal
> > > > > greed and selfish desires.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > > > created can make life interesting
> > > > > and a challenge, although,
> > > > > it can/will also be physically
> > > > > and emotionally painful.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, having a regular life
> > > > > without additional commitments
> > > > > and involvements can also
> > > > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > > > and insights. We are never
> > > > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > > > not sure how peace of any
> > > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > > > will ever happen in a world
> > > > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > > > >
> > > > > One must care about everyone
> > > > > and have caring relationships
> > > > > with people in order for humankind
> > > > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > > > too.
> > > > >
> > > > > How can one really "care" about
> > > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > > > except to keep them away from
> > > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > > > people.
> > > > >
> > > > > When one thinks about it the
> > > > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > > > seem to be more pathological
> > > > > than the introverts don't you
> > > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > > > to force us introverts to become
> > > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > > > is more intimidating.
> > > > >
> > > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > > > lives because of the differences
> > > > > we see in one another. This is
> > > > > why there are so many different
> > > > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > > > and wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > > > use God as our scape goat.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are major flaws with all
> > > > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > > > validation is that these various
> > > > > people in history/myth that the
> > > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > > > have given them credibility, because
> > > > > it is believed and taught that
> > > > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > > > have been the source for their
> > > > > Divine Inspiration.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > > > today, who are not even followers
> > > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > > > Many of these people inspired
> > > > > others by never giving up in time
> > > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > > > Even those who did give up and
> > > > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > > > maintained their faith and this
> > > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > > > for religions there are an awful
> > > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Prometheus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > > > with unconditional love for the
> > > > > master and you get a submissive
> > > > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > > > Buyer beware!
> > > > >
> > > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > > > an experiment to see if we
> > > > > are all capable of evolving
> > > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > > > Are we to become more than
> > > > > merely a divine thought?
> > > > > Maybe there is something
> > > > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > > > analogy."
> >
>

Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all the
examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by searching
the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720

The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the
quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):

"[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
[Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
study.

"About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"

[Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

"[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
Library dream as well. [... .]"

[Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page
is here:

http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87

As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I suspect
somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which prevents most
of the original pages from coming up.

I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to
wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants
copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.

Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not
from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see
it.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Etznab,
> What's this pertain to?
> I wasn't able to pull these
> sites up.
>
> What's Marman saying
> about "the Astral Library
> dream"(of PT's?) being
> misunderstood... in what
> way?
>
> What is the interpretation?
> It's more than a metaphor
> correct?
>
> Didn't Klemp say that he,
> too, visited the Astral Library
> and saw Ancient manuscripts
> with Twitchell's handwritten
> notes scribbled in the margins.
>
> It seems that only EKists have
> access to this specific Astral
> Plane Library and that it's a
> really old style (ancient/wisdom
> filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> are taught to dream of and
> conjure.
>
> BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> So why believe anything Twitchell
> said?
>
> This is what bothered Klemp.
> Klemp realized that Twitchell
> was worse than Darwin! The
> Astral Library story/dream was
> B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> and Gross did. He rationalizes
> it all away by thinking that he
> is giving a select group of New
> Agers something to believe in.
> HK's giving them much of what
> the other religions give: Faith;
> Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> While taking their money and
> being seen as Pope like by
> being infallible and beyond
> reproach.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> "etznab18"  wrote:
> A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
>
> "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
> misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
> I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
> but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
>
> The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> gave those talks or started writing about it.
>
> He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
> happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
> as well. [... .]"
>
> [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
> More Questions to Doug Marman]
>
> http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
>
> My contributions to the "growing list".
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
> r/Ref%23$2041391720
>
> ***
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
> lGt1TvUM3Q
>

Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced
(quoted from) earlier.

***

Doug Marman
1/3/2004

Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman

USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
> Dear Doug,
>
> I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
> about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
> Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
>
> Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
> Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
>
> Thank You,
> Usually Skeptical

I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started
there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most
humble people back then.

I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.

I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to
organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there.
It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as
I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back
together into their original form.

I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at the
ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much interested in
the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual teachings.

I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing his
book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete set of
the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was there,
so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.

I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the
organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent
anyone else but myself and my own understanding.

Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through
Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I
learned a lot more about Paul there.

Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old
writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on
in the last chapter of my book.

As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some
could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my
interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold
talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was
discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned
and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says
at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.

If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong. Harold
does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the Astral
Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What Harold
does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some of the
greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about the
path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all of
Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.

The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It
was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of
Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the
beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a
god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold
talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family
- rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then
disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because
plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk,
concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he
finally saw Paul.

Here's how Harold ends his talk:

"I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the
other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy
as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly,
"What's that?"

" 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.

" 'For what? ' he asks.

" 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.

" 'Oh, ' he says.  'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '

"Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.

"Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something
about that someday! "

Here is what David Lane said in his book:

Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so
that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.

In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was breaking
the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very thing he
was studying in his dream.

David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues
about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm
explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't
plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would
Harold need to clean up a mess?

But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused
him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken
interpretation.

David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw
the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that
the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the
opposite.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

Doug Marman.

***

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
>
> Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all
the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by
searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720
>
> The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the
quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
>
> "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
> researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
> turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
> say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
> [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
> records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
> which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
> study.
>
> "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
> about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
> further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
> worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
> days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
> months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
> began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
> share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
> anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
> unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
> see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
>
> [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
>
> "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
> has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
> book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
> another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
> correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
> me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
> that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
> quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
> swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
> with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
> Library dream as well. [... .]"
>
> [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
> Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
>
> http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
>
> Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link page
is here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
>
> As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I
suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which
prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
>
> I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to
wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants
copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
>
> Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was not
from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to see
it.
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Etznab,
> > What's this pertain to?
> > I wasn't able to pull these
> > sites up.
> >
> > What's Marman saying
> > about "the Astral Library
> > dream"(of PT's?) being
> > misunderstood... in what
> > way?
> >
> > What is the interpretation?
> > It's more than a metaphor
> > correct?
> >
> > Didn't Klemp say that he,
> > too, visited the Astral Library
> > and saw Ancient manuscripts
> > with Twitchell's handwritten
> > notes scribbled in the margins.
> >
> > It seems that only EKists have
> > access to this specific Astral
> > Plane Library and that it's a
> > really old style (ancient/wisdom
> > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> > are taught to dream of and
> > conjure.
> >
> > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> > So why believe anything Twitchell
> > said?
> >
> > This is what bothered Klemp.
> > Klemp realized that Twitchell
> > was worse than Darwin! The
> > Astral Library story/dream was
> > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> > and Gross did. He rationalizes
> > it all away by thinking that he
> > is giving a select group of New
> > Agers something to believe in.
> > HK's giving them much of what
> > the other religions give: Faith;
> > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> > While taking their money and
> > being seen as Pope like by
> > being infallible and beyond
> > reproach.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > "etznab18"  wrote:
> > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
> >
> > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
become
> > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
> > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
> > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
> >
> > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> > gave those talks or started writing about it.
> >
> > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
> > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
dream
> > as well. [... .]"
> >
> > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
Skeptical:
> > More Questions to Doug Marman]
> >
> > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> >
> > My contributions to the "growing list".
> >
> >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
> > r/Ref%23$2041391720
> >
> > ***
> >
> >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
> > lGt1TvUM3Q
> >
>

Hello Etznab and All,
Actually the Astral Library
excuse is just another lie
for Twitchell's plagiarisms
and for Klemp's continuation
of the scam.

I happen to know that
this info Twitchell used
never came from the 2nd
Plane Astral Library. I
Soul traveled to a higher
plane, the (3rd) Causal
Plane, and went back into
the past and to Atlantis.
I visited the main library
there and this same info
Twit used was found in
that library (3rd floor, see
Bod). It's still stored there
(Atlantis) on the Physical
Plane but in an earlier time.
Thus, the so-called Astral
Plane Library is an unnecessary
lie.

See how easy it is to make
shit up!

Prometheus

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
>
> Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I referenced
(quoted from) earlier.
>
> ***
>
> Doug Marman
> 1/3/2004
>
> Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
>
> USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
> > Dear Doug,
> >
> > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
> > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
> > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
> >
> > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
> > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Usually Skeptical
>
> I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started
there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most
humble people back then.
>
> I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
>
> I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to
organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there.
It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as
I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back
together into their original form.
>
> I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at
the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much
interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual
teachings.
>
> I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing
his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete
set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was
there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
>
> I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in the
organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to represent
anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
>
> Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go through
Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's home. I
learned a lot more about Paul there.
>
> Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old
writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on
in the last chapter of my book.
>
> As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some
could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my
interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold
talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was
discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned
and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says
at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
>
> If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong.
Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the
Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What
Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some
of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about
the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all
of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
>
> The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library. It
was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point of
Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the
beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a
god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold
talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family
- rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then
disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because
plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk,
concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he
finally saw Paul.
>
> Here's how Harold ends his talk:
>
> "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the
other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy
as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly,
"What's that?"
>
> " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
>
> " 'For what? ' he asks.
>
> " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
>
> " 'Oh, ' he says.  'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
>
> "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
>
> "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something
about that someday! "
>
> Here is what David Lane said in his book:
>
> Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so
that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
>
> In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was
breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very
thing he was studying in his dream.
>
> David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long dialogues
about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm
explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't
plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would
Harold need to clean up a mess?
>
> But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David accused
him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken
interpretation.
>
> David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might draw
the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know that
the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the
opposite.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Doug Marman.
>
> ***
>
> http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> >
> > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to all
the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by
searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
> >
> >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720
> >
> > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the
quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
> >
> > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
> > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
> > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
> > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
> > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
> > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
> > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
> > study.
> >
> > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
> > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
> > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
> > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
> > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
> > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
> > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
> > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
> > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
> > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
> > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
> >
> > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
> >
> > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
> > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
> > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
> > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
> > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
> > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
> > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
> > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
> > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
> > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
> > Library dream as well. [... .]"
> >
> > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
> > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
> >
> > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> >
> > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link
page is here:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
> >
> > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I
suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which
prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
> >
> > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to
wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants
copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
> >
> > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was
not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to
see it.
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Etznab,
> > > What's this pertain to?
> > > I wasn't able to pull these
> > > sites up.
> > >
> > > What's Marman saying
> > > about "the Astral Library
> > > dream"(of PT's?) being
> > > misunderstood... in what
> > > way?
> > >
> > > What is the interpretation?
> > > It's more than a metaphor
> > > correct?
> > >
> > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
> > > too, visited the Astral Library
> > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
> > > with Twitchell's handwritten
> > > notes scribbled in the margins.
> > >
> > > It seems that only EKists have
> > > access to this specific Astral
> > > Plane Library and that it's a
> > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
> > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> > > are taught to dream of and
> > > conjure.
> > >
> > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> > > So why believe anything Twitchell
> > > said?
> > >
> > > This is what bothered Klemp.
> > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
> > > was worse than Darwin! The
> > > Astral Library story/dream was
> > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
> > > it all away by thinking that he
> > > is giving a select group of New
> > > Agers something to believe in.
> > > HK's giving them much of what
> > > the other religions give: Faith;
> > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> > > While taking their money and
> > > being seen as Pope like by
> > > being infallible and beyond
> > > reproach.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > "etznab18"  wrote:
> > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
> > >
> > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
become
> > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
> > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
> > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
> > >
> > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
> > >
> > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
> > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
dream
> > > as well. [... .]"
> > >
> > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
Skeptical:
> > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
> > >
> > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > >
> > > My contributions to the "growing list".
> > >
> > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
> > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
> > >
> > > ***
> > >
> > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
> > > lGt1TvUM3Q
> > >
> >
>

In my opinion Doug Marman admitted that Paul Twitchell plagiarized and that
Harold Klemp knew that Paul Twitchell plagiarized. However, what Harold Klemp
didn't admit (far as I know) was that:

"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on
them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

http://tinyurl.com/3oz2sqy
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264  
http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=264&page=1#Ite\
m_0

Sorry, the links are probably not working, but that was Doug Marman after being
questioned on T.S. B.B.

***

This whole "thing" now reminds me of the Lance Armstrong interview on Oprah
Winfrey (I watched part one last night). Armstrong admitted that he publicly
criticized people for telling the truth. That he even sued people for telling
the truth (to which Oprah Winfrey responded: "What is that?") Another thing
Armstrong said about why he doped, etc., was that "It was the culture." (Notice
the word "cult" in that word.)

In a way, I thought that Oprah interview was some of the best "medicine" for
people in the United States and in the world. I think everybody should watch it
(I only saw part one of two). It will help convince them there are people who
will (and do) lie in order to WIN at all costs. That there are people and groups
(cultures of people) doing this. Some of them are big names, people in high
places and worshiped by millions of followers. Not only will such people lie,
but they can (and do) attack those who tell the truth, slander them in public
and even take them to court if necessary (and sue them for telling the truth!)
People need to know that this culture exists and that there is a way to overcome
this culture of deception ... this culture that can lie on camera and with a
straight face ... over, and over, and over and millions of people will believe
them.

When I take a look back at the B.B. and newsgroup archives, of people telling
the truth and being publicly slandered as a result of telling the truths they
know about Eckankar writings, etc. ... I see many of the same things that I saw
revealed by the Lance Armstrong interview. What I don't see so much of are
people from the culture of liers and attackers many years later admitting that
what they did was wrong and apologizing to the people they criticized. Of course
their was some of this, by members who changed their tunes after learning the
truth, but I see it continuing on a.r.e. and other places even today that some
still can't handle the truth.

Ten years I followed the issues of Eckankar plagiarism, etc., from 2003 when
Ford Johnson's book came out. I looked at his, others, and the pioneering
research by David Lane that gave examples. I followed them and even at some
points surpassed them by discovering examples of new plagiarisms and things that
even they were unaware. I've also seen other people surpass the research by
those from the past who seem to have given up finding new information and pieces
in the puzzle. Still, I continue to see all of those stages for death of an
ideal displayed by those who when presented with the truth refuse to admit it. I
still see people not wanting to acknowledge the truth even when it is put right
in front of them.

With the Armstrong scenario I think people believed in the lies because they
didn't see any credible evidence to the contrary. And even when the evidence and
witnesses started coming forward they still didn't believe. But when the guilty
party finally comes out and admits the truth I think it becomes much easier and
then they believe.
Perhaps something similar is necessary with "Eckankar".

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Etznab and All,
> Actually the Astral Library
> excuse is just another lie
> for Twitchell's plagiarisms
> and for Klemp's continuation
> of the scam.
>
> I happen to know that
> this info Twitchell used
> never came from the 2nd
> Plane Astral Library. I
> Soul traveled to a higher
> plane, the (3rd) Causal
> Plane, and went back into
> the past and to Atlantis.
> I visited the main library
> there and this same info
> Twit used was found in
> that library (3rd floor, see
> Bod). It's still stored there
> (Atlantis) on the Physical
> Plane but in an earlier time.
> Thus, the so-called Astral
> Plane Library is an unnecessary
> lie.
>
> See how easy it is to make
> shit up!
>
> Prometheus
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> >
> > Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I
referenced (quoted from) earlier.
> >
> > ***
> >
> > Doug Marman
> > 1/3/2004
> >
> > Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
> >
> > USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
> > > Dear Doug,
> > >
> > > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer me
> > > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
> > > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
> > >
> > > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
> > > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral Library.
> > >
> > > Thank You,
> > > Usually Skeptical
> >
> > I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I started
there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the most
humble people back then.
> >
> > I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
> >
> > I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was to
organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft there.
It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen times, as
I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them back
together into their original form.
> >
> > I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work at
the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much
interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual
teachings.
> >
> > I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first writing
his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a complete
set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got when I was
there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
> >
> > I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in
the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to
represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
> >
> > Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go
through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's
home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.
> >
> > Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old
writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on
in the last chapter of my book.
> >
> > As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some
could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my
interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold
talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was
discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned
and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says
at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
> >
> > If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong.
Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the
Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What
Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some
of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about
the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all
of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
> >
> > The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral Library.
It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's the point
of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler at the
beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal as a
god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal. Harold
talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the family
- rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then
disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because
plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk,
concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he
finally saw Paul.
> >
> > Here's how Harold ends his talk:
> >
> > "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb the
other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see Paul--busy
as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of gruffly,
"What's that?"
> >
> > " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
> >
> > " 'For what? ' he asks.
> >
> > " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
> >
> > " 'Oh, ' he says.  'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
> >
> > "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
> >
> > "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do something
about that someday! "
> >
> > Here is what David Lane said in his book:
> >
> > Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism so
that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
> >
> > In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was
breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very
thing he was studying in his dream.
> >
> > David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long
dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm
explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't
plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would
Harold need to clean up a mess?
> >
> > But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David
accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken
interpretation.
> >
> > David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might
draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know
that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the
opposite.
> >
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Doug Marman.
> >
> > ***
> >
> > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> >
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to
all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by
searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
> > >
> > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720
> > >
> > > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where the
quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
> > >
> > > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
> > > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
> > > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
> > > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
> > > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
> > > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
> > > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
> > > study.
> > >
> > > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
> > > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
> > > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
> > > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
> > > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
> > > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
> > > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
> > > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
> > > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
> > > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
> > > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
> > >
> > > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
> > >
> > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
> > > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
> > > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
> > > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
> > > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
> > > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
> > > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
> > > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
> > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
> > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
> > > Library dream as well. [... .]"
> > >
> > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
> > > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
> > >
> > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > >
> > > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e. link
page is here:
> > >
> > > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
> > >
> > > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I
suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which
prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
> > >
> > > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going to
wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants
copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
> > >
> > > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It was
not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants to
see it.
> > >
> > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Etznab,
> > > > What's this pertain to?
> > > > I wasn't able to pull these
> > > > sites up.
> > > >
> > > > What's Marman saying
> > > > about "the Astral Library
> > > > dream"(of PT's?) being
> > > > misunderstood... in what
> > > > way?
> > > >
> > > > What is the interpretation?
> > > > It's more than a metaphor
> > > > correct?
> > > >
> > > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
> > > > too, visited the Astral Library
> > > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
> > > > with Twitchell's handwritten
> > > > notes scribbled in the margins.
> > > >
> > > > It seems that only EKists have
> > > > access to this specific Astral
> > > > Plane Library and that it's a
> > > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
> > > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> > > > are taught to dream of and
> > > > conjure.
> > > >
> > > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> > > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> > > > So why believe anything Twitchell
> > > > said?
> > > >
> > > > This is what bothered Klemp.
> > > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
> > > > was worse than Darwin! The
> > > > Astral Library story/dream was
> > > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> > > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> > > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
> > > > it all away by thinking that he
> > > > is giving a select group of New
> > > > Agers something to believe in.
> > > > HK's giving them much of what
> > > > the other religions give: Faith;
> > > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> > > > While taking their money and
> > > > being seen as Pope like by
> > > > being infallible and beyond
> > > > reproach.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "etznab18"  wrote:
> > > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
> > > >
> > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
become
> > > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as
well.
> > > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another
interpretation,
> > > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
> > > >
> > > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> > > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> > > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
> > > >
> > > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> > > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
> > > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
dream
> > > > as well. [... .]"
> > > >
> > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
Skeptical:
> > > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
> > > >
> > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > > >
> > > > My contributions to the "growing list".
> > > >
> > > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
> > > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > >
> > > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
> > > > lGt1TvUM3Q
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Sharing this because I just now found out about it.

(1) Search for the word God in Boorstin's 1961 book, The Image.

http://tinyurl.com/as88ksd

(2) Note the words "The Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" on p. 182.

(3) Compare p. 11 in Boorstin's book with p. 75 (last paragraph) of Twitchell's
Letters to Gail III.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19980986/Letters-To-Gail-3

Example: Keywords "intriguing feature" and

"There remains a tantalizing difference between man-made and God-made events."

- A sentence that appears in both books, by Boorstin (1961) and Twitchell (1964
letter & 1990 book.)

***

Evidently, Paul Twitchell (in 1964) quoted some of Boorstin's book when he wrote
his letter to Gail on February 29th, 1964. But how many people, before now, knew
that Boorstin also (earlier) wrote the same sentence?

"There remains a tantalizing difference between man-made and God-made events."

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/T\
yAy_z3eMPQ

***

There are other sentences exact between the two authors.

I like having found this because I can now compare the two sources and learn how
each author described the subject. Also can learn if Paul Twitchell reworded in
any places another author's copyrighted work.

There is still a sense of shock, at least for me, that some will just continue
to lie or believe in a lie in some kind of continuous loop of
self-justification. Of course, the bigger the lie, perhaps the identity of the
person(s) involved becomes so intertwined that they cannot disengage. The
feeling of shame may be unbearable, or for some, they don't feel shame or guilt
or empathy in the same way that others do.

It is also true that all of us lie or have lied to lesser degrees. It is not
always prudent to always say what we believe to be the truth at all times.
Honesty is good and nice most of the time, and yet we are not all knowing beings
and so it is better imo to at least not blatantly deceive for personal gain or
dishonest manipulation. Other than that, there are really no saints among us. We
are all very human and most of the time we just have to be willing and open to
admit to our mistakes and fallibility, imho. Also, our perceptions may be false
or suddenly telling someone all of their perceived faults because that is being
"honest" may not be very compassionate at all.

Klemp and eckankar is both a practice of deception and delusion. Usually
pathological liars won't come clean unless they are forced to the edge of out
right irrefutable proof in a court of law or public opinion or detained in jail.
Even then, they will probably not admit to anything, nor any wrong doing.

It takes a moral state of mind and consciousness, empathy.... to be reached. It
takes guts sometimes. Eckankar and klemp do nothing to encourage a truly moral
code of ethics and a dogma free Theocracy.

I find it interesting that Lance Armstrong finally came clean, yet he is still a
wealthy man and maybe he had an awakening, or his conscience became stronger
than the effort it takes to continue with a big lie. He did at least have a good
side to him, in so far as wanting to help others. Who knows? Just my take. Oprah
is not necessarily the epitome of saintly honesty either. She's a good actor at
what she does for public shows. Beyond than, she is not really an authority on
much.

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
>
> In my opinion Doug Marman admitted that Paul Twitchell plagiarized and that
Harold Klemp knew that Paul Twitchell plagiarized. However, what Harold Klemp
didn't admit (far as I know) was that:
>
> "4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names
on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3oz2sqy
> http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264  
http://thetruth-seeker.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=264&page=1#Ite\
m_0
>
> Sorry, the links are probably not working, but that was Doug Marman after
being questioned on T.S. B.B.
>
> ***
>
> This whole "thing" now reminds me of the Lance Armstrong interview on Oprah
Winfrey (I watched part one last night). Armstrong admitted that he publicly
criticized people for telling the truth. That he even sued people for telling
the truth (to which Oprah Winfrey responded: "What is that?") Another thing
Armstrong said about why he doped, etc., was that "It was the culture." (Notice
the word "cult" in that word.)
>
> In a way, I thought that Oprah interview was some of the best "medicine" for
people in the United States and in the world. I think everybody should watch it
(I only saw part one of two). It will help convince them there are people who
will (and do) lie in order to WIN at all costs. That there are people and groups
(cultures of people) doing this. Some of them are big names, people in high
places and worshiped by millions of followers. Not only will such people lie,
but they can (and do) attack those who tell the truth, slander them in public
and even take them to court if necessary (and sue them for telling the truth!)
People need to know that this culture exists and that there is a way to overcome
this culture of deception ... this culture that can lie on camera and with a
straight face ... over, and over, and over and millions of people will believe
them.
>
> When I take a look back at the B.B. and newsgroup archives, of people telling
the truth and being publicly slandered as a result of telling the truths they
know about Eckankar writings, etc. ... I see many of the same things that I saw
revealed by the Lance Armstrong interview. What I don't see so much of are
people from the culture of liers and attackers many years later admitting that
what they did was wrong and apologizing to the people they criticized. Of course
their was some of this, by members who changed their tunes after learning the
truth, but I see it continuing on a.r.e. and other places even today that some
still can't handle the truth.
>
> Ten years I followed the issues of Eckankar plagiarism, etc., from 2003 when
Ford Johnson's book came out. I looked at his, others, and the pioneering
research by David Lane that gave examples. I followed them and even at some
points surpassed them by discovering examples of new plagiarisms and things that
even they were unaware. I've also seen other people surpass the research by
those from the past who seem to have given up finding new information and pieces
in the puzzle. Still, I continue to see all of those stages for death of an
ideal displayed by those who when presented with the truth refuse to admit it. I
still see people not wanting to acknowledge the truth even when it is put right
in front of them.
>
> With the Armstrong scenario I think people believed in the lies because they
didn't see any credible evidence to the contrary. And even when the evidence and
witnesses started coming forward they still didn't believe. But when the guilty
party finally comes out and admits the truth I think it becomes much easier and
then they believe.
> Perhaps something similar is necessary with "Eckankar".
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Etznab and All,
> > Actually the Astral Library
> > excuse is just another lie
> > for Twitchell's plagiarisms
> > and for Klemp's continuation
> > of the scam.
> >
> > I happen to know that
> > this info Twitchell used
> > never came from the 2nd
> > Plane Astral Library. I
> > Soul traveled to a higher
> > plane, the (3rd) Causal
> > Plane, and went back into
> > the past and to Atlantis.
> > I visited the main library
> > there and this same info
> > Twit used was found in
> > that library (3rd floor, see
> > Bod). It's still stored there
> > (Atlantis) on the Physical
> > Plane but in an earlier time.
> > Thus, the so-called Astral
> > Plane Library is an unnecessary
> > lie.
> >
> > See how easy it is to make
> > shit up!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is a copy of Doug Marman's January 3rd, 2004 T.S. post. that I
referenced (quoted from) earlier.
> > >
> > > ***
> > >
> > > Doug Marman
> > > 1/3/2004
> > >
> > > Response to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
> > >
> > > USUALLY SKEPTIKAL WROTE:
> > > > Dear Doug,
> > > >
> > > > I found your response and Ford's interesting. However, could you answer
me
> > > > about your connections to Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and
> > > > Eckankar? Are you a member of Eckankar now or have you ever been?
> > > >
> > > > Could you also fill me in on how Lane misinterpretated Harold's Astral
> > > > Library story? I don't recall Twitchell ever mentioning an Astral
Library.
> > > >
> > > > Thank You,
> > > > Usually Skeptical
> > >
> > > I worked at the ECK Office first when it was located in Las Vegas. I
started there about one year after Darwin became the Master. He was one of the
most humble people back then.
> > >
> > > I worked on a number of projects with him and got to know him personally.
> > >
> > > I talk about this in my Internet book. One of the projects I took on was
to organize Paul's orginal taped talks, which had been abandoned in a loft
there. It was a mess. I listened to everyone of Paul's talks at least a dozen
times, as I tried to sort out when and where it took place, and to splice them
back together into their original form.
> > >
> > > I met Harold there in 1973. He left for a year before coming back to work
at the ECK Office. He and I became close friends. Neither of us were much
interested in the office politics, but loved talking about the spiritual
teachings.
> > >
> > > I just happened to be there at the office when David Lane was first
writing his book, so I could comment firsthand on many things. I also kept a
complete set of the ECK publications from the start of ECKANKAR, which I got
when I was there, so I could get actual quotes and the facts of the early days.
> > >
> > > I have been a member since then, however, I currently hold no position in
the organization and wrote my book completely on my own and not trying to
represent anyone else but myself and my own understanding.
> > >
> > > Years later, when Harold became the Master, he gave me a chance to go
through Paul's library and files, after they have been retrieved from Darwin's
home. I learned a lot more about Paul there.
> > >
> > > Since I joined ECKANKAR, I've had a recurring dream about looking for old
writings of Paul, back before ECKANKAR. I talk about the search this led me on
in the last chapter of my book.
> > >
> > > As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I know that some
could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I know my
interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold
talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was
discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned
and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says
at the end of his Astral Library dream as well.
> > >
> > > If you read Harold's actual words, you will see that David Lane is wrong.
Harold does not anywhere in his talk say that Paul got his information from the
Astral Library, therefore it was not plagiarism. Harold never says that. What
Harold does say is that the Astral Library is a source of great wisdom that some
of the greatest writers have access to it. It is an inner source of truth about
the path. Also, from the information there, Harold could see the sources of all
of Paul's books, since it was all in the records there.
> > >
> > > The point of this is that you can't fool the records in the Astral
Library. It was clear there that Paul had borrowed from other writers. That's
the point of Harold's story. That's why he was talking about Paul as a Compiler
at the beginning of the talk, and that we need to take him down off the pedestal
as a god and see that he was a man. Harold called this the death of an ideal.
Harold talks about the stages that people go through in accepting a death in the
family - rejecting the idea, then anger, then confusion and doubt, then
disillusionment, then acceptance - or something like that. All this was because
plagiarism is not the way we want to see Paul. That was all in the same talk,
concluding with Harold talking about his dream in the Astral Library where he
finally saw Paul.
> > >
> > > Here's how Harold ends his talk:
> > >
> > > "I'm doing all this research in a soundproof booth so it doesn't disturb
the other people who are doing research. As I look over at a table, I see
Paul--busy as usual, researching and writing. He looks at me and says, kind of
gruffly, "What's that?"
> > >
> > > " 'Source manuscripts, ' I say.
> > >
> > > " 'For what? ' he asks.
> > >
> > > " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from, ' I reply.
> > >
> > > " 'Oh, ' he says.  'Well, we'll have to do something about that someday. '
> > >
> > > "Then he picks up his notebook and leaves, heading out into the stacks.
> > >
> > > "Yeah, I thought to myself, and I know who is going to have to do
something about that someday! "
> > >
> > > Here is what David Lane said in his book:
> > >
> > > Simply put, Klemp has invented a story to cover-up Twitchell's plagiarism
so that Eckankar can still get away with publishing "stolen" materials.
> > >
> > > In fact, the point Harold was making was the exact opposite. Harold was
breaking the news to ECKists that Paul borrowed and copied. That was the very
thing he was studying in his dream.
> > >
> > > David Lane challenged me on my interpretation, and we had some long
dialogues about it. The whole of Harold's talk makes sense if you see it as I'm
explaining. It doesn't make sense if Harold is trying to explain that it wasn't
plagiarism after all because Paul got it all from the Astral. Then why would
Harold need to clean up a mess?
> > >
> > > But the real problem here is simply that Harold never said what David
accused him of saying. Harold never even suggests it. It was simply a mistaken
interpretation.
> > >
> > > David wasn't the only one to make this mistake. I can see why some might
draw the wrong conclusion, but since I had firsthand experience with it, I know
that the last thing Harold was trying to do was cover something up. Quite the
opposite.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Doug Marman.
> > >
> > > ***
> > >
> > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sorry those links didn't work. One link was to an a.r.e. archive link to
all the examples of plagiarisms that I've seen to date - which can be found by
searching the a.r.e. archive for: Ref# 41391720. Example:
> > > >
> > > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720
> > > >
> > > > The second link (that didn't work) was to the a.r.e. thread from where
the quotes I posted can be found. Example (and about the growing list):
> > > >
> > > > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
> > > > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
> > > > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to
> > > > say that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I
> > > > [Doug Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the
> > > > records. Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past,
> > > > which Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough
> > > > study.
> > > >
> > > > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
> > > > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
> > > > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and
> > > > worked for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early
> > > > days. So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [...] A few
> > > > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
> > > > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
> > > > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
> > > > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
> > > > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
> > > > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [... .]"
> > > >
> > > > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
> > > >
> > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
> > > > has become misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my
> > > > book as well. I know that some could say that I am just offering
> > > > another interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the
> > > > correct one? The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with
> > > > me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had
> > > > that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was
> > > > quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
> > > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
> > > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
> > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
> > > > Library dream as well. [... .]"
> > > >
> > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
> > > > Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman]
> > > >
> > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > > >
> > > > Those were the two quotes, I believe, that I referred to. The a.r.e.
link page is here:
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/b7svn87
> > > >
> > > > As for the T.S. link, I don't think they work any longer. Personally, I
suspect somebody sabotaged the T.S. site. There is a redirect link which
prevents most of the original pages from coming up.
> > > >
> > > > I believe maybe I copied ALL of the old T.S. B.B. posts, and from going
to wayback machine, from old archive pages. So if anybody in the future wants
copies of T.S. B.B. posts just let me know.
> > > >
> > > > Btw, I just noticed that I gave the wrong date for that D.M. post. It
was not from January 2003, but January 3rd, 2004. I have a copy if anybody wants
to see it.
> > > >
> > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" 
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Etznab,
> > > > > What's this pertain to?
> > > > > I wasn't able to pull these
> > > > > sites up.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's Marman saying
> > > > > about "the Astral Library
> > > > > dream"(of PT's?) being
> > > > > misunderstood... in what
> > > > > way?
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the interpretation?
> > > > > It's more than a metaphor
> > > > > correct?
> > > > >
> > > > > Didn't Klemp say that he,
> > > > > too, visited the Astral Library
> > > > > and saw Ancient manuscripts
> > > > > with Twitchell's handwritten
> > > > > notes scribbled in the margins.
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems that only EKists have
> > > > > access to this specific Astral
> > > > > Plane Library and that it's a
> > > > > really old style (ancient/wisdom
> > > > > filled) library that, mostly, EKists
> > > > > are taught to dream of and
> > > > > conjure.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
> > > > > as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
> > > > > So why believe anything Twitchell
> > > > > said?
> > > > >
> > > > > This is what bothered Klemp.
> > > > > Klemp realized that Twitchell
> > > > > was worse than Darwin! The
> > > > > Astral Library story/dream was
> > > > > B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
> > > > > out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
> > > > > and Gross did. He rationalizes
> > > > > it all away by thinking that he
> > > > > is giving a select group of New
> > > > > Agers something to believe in.
> > > > > HK's giving them much of what
> > > > > the other religions give: Faith;
> > > > > Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
> > > > > While taking their money and
> > > > > being seen as Pope like by
> > > > > being infallible and beyond
> > > > > reproach.
> > > > >
> > > > > Prometheus
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "etznab18"  wrote:
> > > > > A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13
> > > > >
> > > > > "[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it
has become
> > > > > misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as
well.
> > > > > I know that some could say that I am just offering another
interpretation,
> > > > > but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
> > > > >
> > > > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
> > > > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
> > > > > gave those talks or started writing about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
> > > > > hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was
not
> > > > > happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess
to
> > > > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral
Library dream
> > > > > as well. [... .]"
> > > > >
> > > > > [Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually
Skeptical:
> > > > > More Questions to Doug Marman]
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
> > > > >
> > > > > My contributions to the "growing list".
> > > > >
> > > > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
> > > > > r/Ref%23$2041391720
> > > > >
> > > > > ***
> > > > >
> > > > >
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
> > > > > lGt1TvUM3Q
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hello Etznab and All,
Yes, Twit's plagiarisms
are apparent to us and
Klemp recognized it by
admitting that PT needed
to get ECKankar off the
ground quickly and, thus,
used other people's
research to do so... by
hook or crook.

The end justifies the
means (PT's lies) according
to Klemp. EKists have
accepted this and will
overlook or rationalize
this because they see
the modern creation of
ECKankar as the greater
good. But, Negativity (lies)
cannot bring forth Truth.

The thing is, a person
is supposed to cite their
sources and put copied
text inside of quotation
marks. That's why they
are called "quotation
marks."

If one doesn't use quotes
or cite sources the reader
is mislead into thinking
that these are the actual
words and ideas of the
author/writer.

Thus, Twitchell and,
now, Klemp became
false prophets via their
own efforts and amoral
behaviors. Klemp is the
biggest hypocrite in EK
and is the last one to
ever criticize an H.I.'s
behavior!

As far a "God" goes; it
is interesting to look
at the oldest religions
that are still around.

Twitchell, it's obvious,
took a little something
from all religions, but
not necessarily the "best"
from them as the story
goes.

Besides, most of these
religious beliefs are flawed
to begin with. That's one
reason for the various
denominations. Thought,
perception and perspective
from groups of believers
dictated belief and experiences.
And, this has usually led
to change and has, in some
cases, evolved over time
(not always in a good way)
while the fundamentalists
have regressed into the
literal beliefs of the lies,
fabricated stories, myth,
and exaggerations coming
from known, unknown or
unsubstantiated "original"
sources pior to "prophetic"
revisions.

"Inspired" Scripture is
always seen as coming
from God, although, there
are many degrees of
perception. Truth cannot
be easily validated, but
religions by-pass any
of the rational requirements.
Religion is the easy way
to accept God's existence
and that's why they've
made it difficult to follow
with endless dogma, rules,
and laws.

Perhaps, The Real, individual
path, is via deconstruction.

All ancient and new religions,
over time, have seen much
of their scripture changed
by inclusions or exclusions
by councils or prophets and
other "experts" or theologians
and scribes influenced by
sex, ego, power, basic greed,
money and politics.

Hinduism is the oldest
religion, next come:
Judaism; Zoroastrianism;
Jainism & Buddhism;
Christianity; Islam.

It's interesting to look
at how these old school
religions have morphed
into various denominations
and sects.

Prometheus

"etznab18"  wrote:
>
> Sharing this because I just now found out about it.
>
> (1) Search for the word God in Boorstin's 1961 book, The Image.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/as88ksd
>
> (2) Note the words "The Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" on p. 182.
>
> (3) Compare p. 11 in Boorstin's book with p. 75 (last paragraph) of
Twitchell's Letters to Gail III.
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/19980986/Letters-To-Gail-3
>
> Example: Keywords "intriguing feature" and
>
> "There remains a tantalizing difference between man-made and God-made events."
>
> - A sentence that appears in both books, by Boorstin (1961) and Twitchell
(1964 letter & 1990 book.)
>
> ***
>
> Evidently, Paul Twitchell (in 1964) quoted some of Boorstin's book when he
wrote his letter to Gail on February 29th, 1964. But how many people, before
now, knew that Boorstin also (earlier) wrote the same sentence?
>
> "There remains a tantalizing difference between man-made and God-made events."
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/T\
yAy_z3eMPQ
>
> ***
>
> There are other sentences exact between the two authors.
>
> I like having found this because I can now compare the two sources and learn
how each author described the subject. Also can learn if Paul Twitchell reworded
in any places another author's copyrighted work.
>

All ancient and new religions, over time, have seen much of their
scripture changed by inclusions or exclusions by councils or prophets
and other "experts" or theologians and scribes influenced by
sex, ego, power, basic greed, money and politics.

***

You can say that again.

-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 21, 2013 1:59 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Pseudo Events - Trivia

 
Hello Etznab and All,
Yes, Twit's plagiarisms
are apparent to us and
Klemp recognized it by
admitting that PT needed
to get ECKankar off the
ground quickly and, thus,
used other people's
research to do so... by
hook or crook.

The end justifies the
means (PT's lies) according
to Klemp. EKists have
accepted this and will
overlook or rationalize
this because they see
the modern creation of
ECKankar as the greater
good. But, Negativity (lies)
cannot bring forth Truth.

The thing is, a person
is supposed to cite their
sources and put copied
text inside of quotation
marks. That's why they
are called "quotation
marks."

If one doesn't use quotes
or cite sources the reader
is mislead into thinking
that these are the actual
words and ideas of the
author/writer.

Thus, Twitchell and,
now, Klemp became
false prophets via their
own efforts and amoral
behaviors. Klemp is the
biggest hypocrite in EK
and is the last one to
ever criticize an H.I.'s
behavior!

As far a "God" goes; it
is interesting to look
at the oldest religions
that are still around.

Twitchell, it's obvious,
took a little something
from all religions, but
not necessarily the "best"
from them as the story
goes.

Besides, most of these
religious beliefs are flawed
to begin with. That's one
reason for the various
denominations. Thought,
perception and perspective
from groups of believers
dictated belief and experiences.
And, this has usually led
to change and has, in some
cases, evolved over time
(not always in a good way)
while the fundamentalists
have regressed into the
literal beliefs of the lies,
fabricated stories, myth,
and exaggerations coming
from known, unknown or
unsubstantiated "original"
sources pior to "prophetic"
revisions.

"Inspired" Scripture is
always seen as coming
from God, although, there
are many degrees of
perception. Truth cannot
be easily validated, but
religions by-pass any
of the rational requirements.
Religion is the easy way
to accept God's existence
and that's why they've
made it difficult to follow
with endless dogma, rules,
and laws.

Perhaps, The Real, individual
path, is via deconstruction.

All ancient and new religions,
over time, have seen much
of their scripture changed
by inclusions or exclusions
by councils or prophets and
other "experts" or theologians
and scribes influenced by
sex, ego, power, basic greed,
money and politics.

Hinduism is the oldest
religion, next come:
Judaism; Zoroastrianism;
Jainism & Buddhism;
Christianity; Islam.

It's interesting to look
at how these old school
religions have morphed
into various denominations
and sects.

Prometheus

"etznab18"  wrote:
>
> Sharing this because I just now found out about it.
>
> (1) Search for the word God in Boorstin's 1961 book, The Image.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/as88ksd
>
> (2) Note the words "The Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" on p.
182.
>
> (3) Compare p. 11 in Boorstin's book with p. 75 (last paragraph)
of Twitchell's Letters to Gail III.
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/19980986/Letters-To-Gail-3
>
> Example: Keywords "intriguing feature" and
>
> "There remains a tantalizing difference between man-made and
God-made events."
>
> - A sentence that appears in both books, by Boorstin (1961) and
Twitchell (1964 letter & 1990 book.)
>
> ***
>
> Evidently, Paul Twitchell (in 1964) quoted some of Boorstin's book
when he wrote his letter to Gail on February 29th, 1964. But how many
people, before now, knew that Boorstin also (earlier) wrote the same
sentence?
>
> "There remains a tantalizing difference between man-made and
God-made events."
>
>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!topic/alt.religion.eckank\
ar/TyAy_z3eMPQ
>
> ***
>
> There are other sentences exact between the two authors.
>
> I like having found this because I can now compare the two sources
and learn how each author described the subject. Also can learn if Paul
Twitchell reworded in any places another author's copyrighted work.
>

Hello All,
I find it interesting
that there are some
denominations in
Judaism that are all
inclusive. They see
those in other denominations
as fellow Jews. Whereas
there are other more
ultra orthodox
denominations that
don't.

The same applies
to Christianity. Some
older denominations
see themselves closer
to the origins of God's
teachings. They rely
upon a stagnant old-
world mindset and
myth to give themselves
authority above others.

This same exclusive
mindset applies to
ECKankar. Rather than
greet and support those
who, also, believe in
the Shabd (i.e. the Light
and Sound) EKists will
throw these same Spirit
minded people out of
their meetings, worship
services, and ECK Centers.
And, people cannot join-
in with their "worship"
of the Shabd without
paying a membership
fee. What other religion,
other than Eckankar,
requires a membership
fee (called a donation
for tax purposes)!

Eckankar is all about
initiation. That's why
ECKists will pay (yearly)
in order to get the
membership card that
leads to initiation...
at least until Klemp's
requirement blockade
becomes unbearable
and more initiations
become (for all practical
purposes) unattainable.

P

etznab@... wrote:
All ancient and new religions, over time, have seen much of their
scripture changed by inclusions or exclusions by councils or prophets
and other "experts" or theologians and scribes influenced by
sex, ego, power, basic greed, money and politics.

***

You can say that again.



prometheus wrote:
(revised)
Hello Etznab and All,
Yes, Twit's plagiarisms
are apparent to us and
Klemp recognized it by
admitting that PT needed
to get ECKankar off the
ground quickly and, thus,
used other people's
research to do so... by
hook or crook.

The end justifies the
means (PT's lies) according
to Klemp. EKists have
accepted this and will
overlook or rationalize
this because they see
the modern creation of
ECKankar as the greater
good. But, Negativity (lies)
cannot bring forth Truth.

The thing is, a person
is supposed to cite their
sources and put copied
text inside of quotation
marks. That's why they
are called "quotation
marks."

If one doesn't use quotes
or cite sources the reader
is mislead into thinking
that these are the actual
words and ideas of the
author/writer.

Thus, Twitchell and,
now, Klemp became
false prophets via their
own nefarious efforts
and amoral behaviors.
Klemp is the biggest
hypocrite in EK and
should be the last one
to ever criticize an H.I.'s
behavior!

As far a "God" goes; it
is interesting to look
at the oldest religions
that are still around.

Twitchell, it's obvious,
took a little something
from all religions, but
not necessarily the "best"
from them as the story
goes.

Besides, most of these
religious beliefs are flawed
to begin with. That's one
reason for the various
denominations.

Thought, perception and
perspective from groups
of believers dictated belief
and experiences.

And, this has usually led
to change and has, in some
cases, evolved over time
(not always in a good way)
while the fundamentalists
have regressed into the
literal beliefs of the lies,
fabricated stories, myth,
and exaggerations coming
from known, unknown or
unsubstantiated "original"
sources pior to "prophetic"
revisions.

"Inspired" Scripture is
always seen as coming
from God, although, there
are many degrees of
perception. Truth cannot
be easily validated, but
religions by-pass any
of the rational requirements.

Religion via cultural/societal
groups is the easy way and
means to accept God's existence.
The majority rules and large
numbers give validation. This
is why the powers that be have
made it difficult to find happiness
except by following endless
dogma, rules, promises, faith
and laws. It's a way to distract
the masses from the truth while
keeping them under control,
and off balance for the clerics
and scribes to manipulate.

Perhaps, The Real, individual
path, is via deconstruction.

All ancient and new religions,
over time, have seen much
of their scripture changed
by inclusions or exclusions
by councils or prophets and
other "experts" or theologians
and scribes influenced by
sex, ego, power, basic greed,
money and politics.

Hinduism is the oldest
religion, next come:
Judaism; Zoroastrianism;
Jainism & Buddhism;
Christianity; Islam.

It's interesting to look
at how these old school
religions have morphed
into various denominations
and sects.

Prometheus

Do you know if it is true that some forms of Judaism believe that all languages
evolved from Hebrew. If so, I don't see HU as part of their spirituality, and is
this discussed in eckankar. I don't recall. I do though recall some eck book
using Genesis as proof of God creating the earth with the Word. This is a very
Biblical approach. And of course their are no ancient texts of eckankar to
provide proof for anything, except supposedly on the astral or whatever. All of
this is a lot like the basis of Mormonism, the gold plates that mysteriously
disappeared.

The typical con will do this. There is always slight of hand, and just trust me
and just stop thinking so much about it......

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I find it interesting
> that there are some
> denominations in
> Judaism that are all
> inclusive. They see
> those in other denominations
> as fellow Jews. Whereas
> there are other more
> ultra orthodox
> denominations that
> don't.
>
> The same applies
> to Christianity. Some
> older denominations
> see themselves closer
> to the origins of God's
> teachings. They rely
> upon a stagnant old-
> world mindset and
> myth to give themselves
> authority above others.
>
> This same exclusive
> mindset applies to
> ECKankar. Rather than
> greet and support those
> who, also, believe in
> the Shabd (i.e. the Light
> and Sound) EKists will
> throw these same Spirit
> minded people out of
> their meetings, worship
> services, and ECK Centers.
> And, people cannot join-
> in with their "worship"
> of the Shabd without
> paying a membership
> fee. What other religion,
> other than Eckankar,
> requires a membership
> fee (called a donation
> for tax purposes)!
>
> Eckankar is all about
> initiation. That's why
> ECKists will pay (yearly)
> in order to get the
> membership card that
> leads to initiation...
> at least until Klemp's
> requirement blockade
> becomes unbearable
> and more initiations
> become (for all practical
> purposes) unattainable.
>
> P
>
> etznab@ wrote:
> All ancient and new religions, over time, have seen much of their
> scripture changed by inclusions or exclusions by councils or prophets
> and other "experts" or theologians and scribes influenced by
> sex, ego, power, basic greed, money and politics.
>
> ***
>
> You can say that again.
>
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
> (revised)
> Hello Etznab and All,
> Yes, Twit's plagiarisms
> are apparent to us and
> Klemp recognized it by
> admitting that PT needed
> to get ECKankar off the
> ground quickly and, thus,
> used other people's
> research to do so... by
> hook or crook.
>
> The end justifies the
> means (PT's lies) according
> to Klemp. EKists have
> accepted this and will
> overlook or rationalize
> this because they see
> the modern creation of
> ECKankar as the greater
> good. But, Negativity (lies)
> cannot bring forth Truth.
>
> The thing is, a person
> is supposed to cite their
> sources and put copied
> text inside of quotation
> marks. That's why they
> are called "quotation
> marks."
>
> If one doesn't use quotes
> or cite sources the reader
> is mislead into thinking
> that these are the actual
> words and ideas of the
> author/writer.
>
> Thus, Twitchell and,
> now, Klemp became
> false prophets via their
> own nefarious efforts
> and amoral behaviors.
> Klemp is the biggest
> hypocrite in EK and
> should be the last one
> to ever criticize an H.I.'s
> behavior!
>
> As far a "God" goes; it
> is interesting to look
> at the oldest religions
> that are still around.
>
> Twitchell, it's obvious,
> took a little something
> from all religions, but
> not necessarily the "best"
> from them as the story
> goes.
>
> Besides, most of these
> religious beliefs are flawed
> to begin with. That's one
> reason for the various
> denominations.
>
> Thought, perception and
> perspective from groups
> of believers dictated belief
> and experiences.
>
> And, this has usually led
> to change and has, in some
> cases, evolved over time
> (not always in a good way)
> while the fundamentalists
> have regressed into the
> literal beliefs of the lies,
> fabricated stories, myth,
> and exaggerations coming
> from known, unknown or
> unsubstantiated "original"
> sources pior to "prophetic"
> revisions.
>
> "Inspired" Scripture is
> always seen as coming
> from God, although, there
> are many degrees of
> perception. Truth cannot
> be easily validated, but
> religions by-pass any
> of the rational requirements.
>
> Religion via cultural/societal
> groups is the easy way and
> means to accept God's existence.
> The majority rules and large
> numbers give validation. This
> is why the powers that be have
> made it difficult to find happiness
> except by following endless
> dogma, rules, promises, faith
> and laws. It's a way to distract
> the masses from the truth while
> keeping them under control,
> and off balance for the clerics
> and scribes to manipulate.
>
> Perhaps, The Real, individual
> path, is via deconstruction.
>
> All ancient and new religions,
> over time, have seen much
> of their scripture changed
> by inclusions or exclusions
> by councils or prophets and
> other "experts" or theologians
> and scribes influenced by
> sex, ego, power, basic greed,
> money and politics.
>
> Hinduism is the oldest
> religion, next come:
> Judaism; Zoroastrianism;
> Jainism & Buddhism;
> Christianity; Islam.
>
> It's interesting to look
> at how these old school
> religions have morphed
> into various denominations
> and sects.
>
> Prometheus
>

There is a word "Hu" in Sanskrit, I believe, and it was somehow
associated with rituals. I think during the time of the Vedas. One can
find it mentioned in connection with rituals like the fire sacrifice,
or ritual offerings. I'm not completely satisfied with the modern
definitions because they don't go far enough to explain what exactly
the word means, what part of the rituals and sacrifices it pertained
to. At one time I thought I had a handle on the probable meaning, but I
don't remember if I was ever completely satisfied I knew for sure. Here
are some examples:

hu - "call, invoke, invite, summon; offer, sacrifice (Sanskrit).
Associated spellings:words: huta ['offerings; usually made to a
fire']."

Compare that with the Egyptian definition of "Hu" as "authoritative
utterance" and it looks (to me) like the word "Hu" might pertain simply
to making a sound. Considering the "sound" of "hu" it is a very common
one that people were probably uttering since prehistoric times. How it
ever became associated with things spiritual, or God, I am not prepared
to say.

Far as Hebrew goes, one probably needs to consider if Egyptian is
older. If the Hebrews borrowed the word, or changed the meaning. For
instance, pronunciation for the Hebrew Tetragrammaton - "YHVH" was
declared to be secret, unknown, or the correct pronunciation known only
to the high priest of the temple and that it was eventually forgotten
to history. This is why other words and names are used in it's place.
Such as Ha Shem, meaning "the name".

I did a whole page on available history for Hu (and related words)
once, but I can't say that I really subscribe to ANY of them as being
100 percent accurate. Nevertheless, if anybody wants a reference page
showing what people have said, go here.

http://www.mirrorh.com/iaoyhvhhu.html

***

Btw, I have seen a number of words from Sanskrit and Hebrew that are
similar in sound and meaning. Hard to say who borrowed from who though.
However, one thing to keep in mind is the Babylonian captivity of
certain Hebrew tribes. Babylon was closer to Persia and Persia closer
to India. What I am saying is that there were relations and influences
back and forth between Persia and India. Consider Avestan and Sanskrit.
So when the Israelites were captive in Babylon and later freed by (Was
it Darius?) it is quite possible they picked up words, history and
traditions from those areas. Not only possible, but probable.

Hu seems to be similar to the Greek Eu, etc., with the basic meaning of
"good". sanskrit also has a prefix Su- with the basic meaning of
"good". In Avestan I believe there was Vohu Manu; with Vohu meaning
"good".

OK. So consider this. When people today make a big to do about
something, when they cheer, etc., a very common expression is Whoo!
Hooo! (Say it isn't so.) And to tell you the truth I think this sound,
that of "huuuu" could have probably been used in a similar way so many
years ago. And in that case it is just a sound, or a reaction, a form
of expression used by people who get excited - like during rituals in
the olden days!

It's just a guess. A hunch.

eu-

word-forming element in modern use meaning "good, well," from comb.
form of Greek eus "good," eu "well" (adv.), also "luckily, happily,"
from PIE *(e)su- "good" (cf. Sanskrit su- "good," Avestan hu- "good").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=eu-&searchmode=non\
e

***

Sorry for the length ... the history of words is one of my main
interests.






-----Original Message-----
From: Non <eckchains@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jan 22, 2013 6:12 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Pseudo Events - Trivia
(revised)

 
Do you know if it is true that some forms of Judaism believe that all
languages evolved from Hebrew. If so, I don't see HU as part of their
spirituality, and is this discussed in eckankar. I don't recall. I do
though recall some eck book using Genesis as proof of God creating the
earth with the Word. This is a very Biblical approach. And of course
their are no ancient texts of eckankar to provide proof for anything,
except supposedly on the astral or whatever. All of this is a lot like
the basis of Mormonism, the gold plates that mysteriously disappeared.

The typical con will do this. There is always slight of hand, and just
trust me and just stop thinking so much about it......

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I find it interesting
> that there are some
> denominations in
> Judaism that are all
> inclusive. They see
> those in other denominations
> as fellow Jews. Whereas
> there are other more
> ultra orthodox
> denominations that
> don't.
>
> The same applies
> to Christianity. Some
> older denominations
> see themselves closer
> to the origins of God's
> teachings. They rely
> upon a stagnant old-
> world mindset and
> myth to give themselves
> authority above others.
>
> This same exclusive
> mindset applies to
> ECKankar. Rather than
> greet and support those
> who, also, believe in
> the Shabd (i.e. the Light
> and Sound) EKists will
> throw these same Spirit
> minded people out of
> their meetings, worship
> services, and ECK Centers.
> And, people cannot join-
> in with their "worship"
> of the Shabd without
> paying a membership
> fee. What other religion,
> other than Eckankar,
> requires a membership
> fee (called a donation
> for tax purposes)!
>
> Eckankar is all about
> initiation. That's why
> ECKists will pay (yearly)
> in order to get the
> membership card that
> leads to initiation...
> at least until Klemp's
> requirement blockade
> becomes unbearable
> and more initiations
> become (for all practical
> purposes) unattainable.
>
> P
>
> etznab@ wrote:
> All ancient and new religions, over time, have seen much of their
> scripture changed by inclusions or exclusions by councils or
prophets
> and other "experts" or theologians and scribes influenced by
> sex, ego, power, basic greed, money and politics.
>
> ***
>
> You can say that again.
>
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
> (revised)
> Hello Etznab and All,
> Yes, Twit's plagiarisms
> are apparent to us and
> Klemp recognized it by
> admitting that PT needed
> to get ECKankar off the
> ground quickly and, thus,
> used other people's
> research to do so... by
> hook or crook.
>
> The end justifies the
> means (PT's lies) according
> to Klemp. EKists have
> accepted this and will
> overlook or rationalize
> this because they see
> the modern creation of
> ECKankar as the greater
> good. But, Negativity (lies)
> cannot bring forth Truth.
>
> The thing is, a person
> is supposed to cite their
> sources and put copied
> text inside of quotation
> marks. That's why they
> are called "quotation
> marks."
>
> If one doesn't use quotes
> or cite sources the reader
> is mislead into thinking
> that these are the actual
> words and ideas of the
> author/writer.
>
> Thus, Twitchell and,
> now, Klemp became
> false prophets via their
> own nefarious efforts
> and amoral behaviors.
> Klemp is the biggest
> hypocrite in EK and
> should be the last one
> to ever criticize an H.I.'s
> behavior!
>
> As far a "God" goes; it
> is interesting to look
> at the oldest religions
> that are still around.
>
> Twitchell, it's obvious,
> took a little something
> from all religions, but
> not necessarily the "best"
> from them as the story
> goes.
>
> Besides, most of these
> religious beliefs are flawed
> to begin with. That's one
> reason for the various
> denominations.
>
> Thought, perception and
> perspective from groups
> of believers dictated belief
> and experiences.
>
> And, this has usually led
> to change and has, in some
> cases, evolved over time
> (not always in a good way)
> while the fundamentalists
> have regressed into the
> literal beliefs of the lies,
> fabricated stories, myth,
> and exaggerations coming
> from known, unknown or
> unsubstantiated "original"
> sources pior to "prophetic"
> revisions.
>
> "Inspired" Scripture is
> always seen as coming
> from God, although, there
> are many degrees of
> perception. Truth cannot
> be easily validated, but
> religions by-pass any
> of the rational requirements.
>
> Religion via cultural/societal
> groups is the easy way and
> means to accept God's existence.
> The majority rules and large
> numbers give validation. This
> is why the powers that be have
> made it difficult to find happiness
> except by following endless
> dogma, rules, promises, faith
> and laws. It's a way to distract
> the masses from the truth while
> keeping them under control,
> and off balance for the clerics
> and scribes to manipulate.
>
> Perhaps, The Real, individual
> path, is via deconstruction.
>
> All ancient and new religions,
> over time, have seen much
> of their scripture changed
> by inclusions or exclusions
> by councils or prophets and
> other "experts" or theologians
> and scribes influenced by
> sex, ego, power, basic greed,
> money and politics.
>
> Hinduism is the oldest
> religion, next come:
> Judaism; Zoroastrianism;
> Jainism & Buddhism;
> Christianity; Islam.
>
> It's interesting to look
> at how these old school
> religions have morphed
> into various denominations
> and sects.
>
> Prometheus
>

Thanks, very impressive analysis. I did find that hu in Hebrew and Arabic means
"he", referring to a male. And then there is Allah hu Akbar, God is Great and
also a he.

Hoo is an interesting sound and as you say, it is a very common sound or
utterance. If voicing a certain sound is so powerful, I think it would be common
knowledge and heavily studied by scientists. It could also be simply the sound
of a dove, which I have found to be quite a lovely sound and is more like
"whoooo".

The way eckists pronounce hu (hue) sounds kind of like a Southern version, and
since Twitch was from the South, it may have just been his Southern accent and
eckists are just clueless that they are pronouncing it wrong.

Non ; )

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> There is a word "Hu" in Sanskrit, I believe, and it was somehow
> associated with rituals. I think during the time of the Vedas. One can
> find it mentioned in connection with rituals like the fire sacrifice,
> or ritual offerings. I'm not completely satisfied with the modern
> definitions because they don't go far enough to explain what exactly
> the word means, what part of the rituals and sacrifices it pertained
> to. At one time I thought I had a handle on the probable meaning, but I
> don't remember if I was ever completely satisfied I knew for sure. Here
> are some examples:
>
> hu - "call, invoke, invite, summon; offer, sacrifice (Sanskrit).
> Associated spellings:words: huta ['offerings; usually made to a
> fire']."
>
> Compare that with the Egyptian definition of "Hu" as "authoritative
> utterance" and it looks (to me) like the word "Hu" might pertain simply
> to making a sound. Considering the "sound" of "hu" it is a very common
> one that people were probably uttering since prehistoric times. How it
> ever became associated with things spiritual, or God, I am not prepared
> to say.
>
> Far as Hebrew goes, one probably needs to consider if Egyptian is
> older. If the Hebrews borrowed the word, or changed the meaning. For
> instance, pronunciation for the Hebrew Tetragrammaton - "YHVH" was
> declared to be secret, unknown, or the correct pronunciation known only
> to the high priest of the temple and that it was eventually forgotten
> to history. This is why other words and names are used in it's place.
> Such as Ha Shem, meaning "the name".
>
> I did a whole page on available history for Hu (and related words)
> once, but I can't say that I really subscribe to ANY of them as being
> 100 percent accurate. Nevertheless, if anybody wants a reference page
> showing what people have said, go here.
>
> http://www.mirrorh.com/iaoyhvhhu.html
>
> ***
>
> Btw, I have seen a number of words from Sanskrit and Hebrew that are
> similar in sound and meaning. Hard to say who borrowed from who though.
> However, one thing to keep in mind is the Babylonian captivity of
> certain Hebrew tribes. Babylon was closer to Persia and Persia closer
> to India. What I am saying is that there were relations and influences
> back and forth between Persia and India. Consider Avestan and Sanskrit.
> So when the Israelites were captive in Babylon and later freed by (Was
> it Darius?) it is quite possible they picked up words, history and
> traditions from those areas. Not only possible, but probable.
>
> Hu seems to be similar to the Greek Eu, etc., with the basic meaning of
> "good". sanskrit also has a prefix Su- with the basic meaning of
> "good". In Avestan I believe there was Vohu Manu; with Vohu meaning
> "good".
>
> OK. So consider this. When people today make a big to do about
> something, when they cheer, etc., a very common expression is Whoo!
> Hooo! (Say it isn't so.) And to tell you the truth I think this sound,
> that of "huuuu" could have probably been used in a similar way so many
> years ago. And in that case it is just a sound, or a reaction, a form
> of expression used by people who get excited - like during rituals in
> the olden days!
>
> It's just a guess. A hunch.
>
> eu-
>
> word-forming element in modern use meaning "good, well," from comb.
> form of Greek eus "good," eu "well" (adv.), also "luckily, happily,"
> from PIE *(e)su- "good" (cf. Sanskrit su- "good," Avestan hu- "good").
>
>
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=eu-&searchmode=non\
e
>
> ***
>
> Sorry for the length ... the history of words is one of my main
> interests.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Non
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
>
> Sent: Tue, Jan 22, 2013 6:12 pm
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Pseudo Events - Trivia
> (revised)
>
>  
> Do you know if it is true that some forms of Judaism believe that all
> languages evolved from Hebrew. If so, I don't see HU as part of their
> spirituality, and is this discussed in eckankar. I don't recall. I do
> though recall some eck book using Genesis as proof of God creating the
> earth with the Word. This is a very Biblical approach. And of course
> their are no ancient texts of eckankar to provide proof for anything,
> except supposedly on the astral or whatever. All of this is a lot like
> the basis of Mormonism, the gold plates that mysteriously disappeared.
>
> The typical con will do this. There is always slight of hand, and just
> trust me and just stop thinking so much about it......
>
> Non ;)
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > I find it interesting
> > that there are some
> > denominations in
> > Judaism that are all
> > inclusive. They see
> > those in other denominations
> > as fellow Jews. Whereas
> > there are other more
> > ultra orthodox
> > denominations that
> > don't.
> >
> > The same applies
> > to Christianity. Some
> > older denominations
> > see themselves closer
> > to the origins of God's
> > teachings. They rely
> > upon a stagnant old-
> > world mindset and
> > myth to give themselves
> > authority above others.
> >
> > This same exclusive
> > mindset applies to
> > ECKankar. Rather than
> > greet and support those
> > who, also, believe in
> > the Shabd (i.e. the Light
> > and Sound) EKists will
> > throw these same Spirit
> > minded people out of
> > their meetings, worship
> > services, and ECK Centers.
> > And, people cannot join-
> > in with their "worship"
> > of the Shabd without
> > paying a membership
> > fee. What other religion,
> > other than Eckankar,
> > requires a membership
> > fee (called a donation
> > for tax purposes)!
> >
> > Eckankar is all about
> > initiation. That's why
> > ECKists will pay (yearly)
> > in order to get the
> > membership card that
> > leads to initiation...
> > at least until Klemp's
> > requirement blockade
> > becomes unbearable
> > and more initiations
> > become (for all practical
> > purposes) unattainable.
> >
> > P
> >
> > etznab@ wrote:
> > All ancient and new religions, over time, have seen much of their
> > scripture changed by inclusions or exclusions by councils or
> prophets
> > and other "experts" or theologians and scribes influenced by
> > sex, ego, power, basic greed, money and politics.
> >
> > ***
> >
> > You can say that again.
> >
> >
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > (revised)
> > Hello Etznab and All,
> > Yes, Twit's plagiarisms
> > are apparent to us and
> > Klemp recognized it by
> > admitting that PT needed
> > to get ECKankar off the
> > ground quickly and, thus,
> > used other people's
> > research to do so... by
> > hook or crook.
> >
> > The end justifies the
> > means (PT's lies) according
> > to Klemp. EKists have
> > accepted this and will
> > overlook or rationalize
> > this because they see
> > the modern creation of
> > ECKankar as the greater
> > good. But, Negativity (lies)
> > cannot bring forth Truth.
> >
> > The thing is, a person
> > is supposed to cite their
> > sources and put copied
> > text inside of quotation
> > marks. That's why they
> > are called "quotation
> > marks."
> >
> > If one doesn't use quotes
> > or cite sources the reader
> > is mislead into thinking
> > that these are the actual
> > words and ideas of the
> > author/writer.
> >
> > Thus, Twitchell and,
> > now, Klemp became
> > false prophets via their
> > own nefarious efforts
> > and amoral behaviors.
> > Klemp is the biggest
> > hypocrite in EK and
> > should be the last one
> > to ever criticize an H.I.'s
> > behavior!
> >
> > As far a "God" goes; it
> > is interesting to look
> > at the oldest religions
> > that are still around.
> >
> > Twitchell, it's obvious,
> > took a little something
> > from all religions, but
> > not necessarily the "best"
> > from them as the story
> > goes.
> >
> > Besides, most of these
> > religious beliefs are flawed
> > to begin with. That's one
> > reason for the various
> > denominations.
> >
> > Thought, perception and
> > perspective from groups
> > of believers dictated belief
> > and experiences.
> >
> > And, this has usually led
> > to change and has, in some
> > cases, evolved over time
> > (not always in a good way)
> > while the fundamentalists
> > have regressed into the
> > literal beliefs of the lies,
> > fabricated stories, myth,
> > and exaggerations coming
> > from known, unknown or
> > unsubstantiated "original"
> > sources pior to "prophetic"
> > revisions.
> >
> > "Inspired" Scripture is
> > always seen as coming
> > from God, although, there
> > are many degrees of
> > perception. Truth cannot
> > be easily validated, but
> > religions by-pass any
> > of the rational requirements.
> >
> > Religion via cultural/societal
> > groups is the easy way and
> > means to accept God's existence.
> > The majority rules and large
> > numbers give validation. This
> > is why the powers that be have
> > made it difficult to find happiness
> > except by following endless
> > dogma, rules, promises, faith
> > and laws. It's a way to distract
> > the masses from the truth while
> > keeping them under control,
> > and off balance for the clerics
> > and scribes to manipulate.
> >
> > Perhaps, The Real, individual
> > path, is via deconstruction.
> >
> > All ancient and new religions,
> > over time, have seen much
> > of their scripture changed
> > by inclusions or exclusions
> > by councils or prophets and
> > other "experts" or theologians
> > and scribes influenced by
> > sex, ego, power, basic greed,
> > money and politics.
> >
> > Hinduism is the oldest
> > religion, next come:
> > Judaism; Zoroastrianism;
> > Jainism & Buddhism;
> > Christianity; Islam.
> >
> > It's interesting to look
> > at how these old school
> > religions have morphed
> > into various denominations
> > and sects.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>

Hello All,
I was reading where Klemp
had quoted from his newly
redundant book, The Call
of Soul. He was talking, once
again, about being "creative"
and about the creative ability
of Soul. It seems Klemp is
giving this a revised spin by
saying one's "creative ability
is survival."

HK: "... most of the time
we find ourselves in trouble
that we've made for ourselves."

ME: Like when someone dies
or we get sick with the flu or
with cancer and we get laid
off or our job gets outsourced
to China, etc.

HK: "... someone with the
golden heart is someone
who lives in the presence
of God.. That means you
pay more attention to the
needs of other people than
to your own. It doesn't mean
neglecting your own needs
of course."

ME: Right. You have to take
care of yourself first but how
or why does one pay "more
attention to the needs of other
people" than to one's own
needs, health, family, job
etc? Who has the time and
money to do as Klemp suggests?

What does HK know about
real life when he hasn't
worked in a real job for
over 40 years? I know Klemp
needs his volunteer sales
team but this spiel is
ridiculous!

HK: "Until you become a
strong human being able
to survive under any and
all conditions you're never
going to be able to help
anyone else. In Eckankar
we want to see people
develop into strong human
beings. This is the path
for the strong."

ME: And what about the
qualities that produce this
strength? Klemp never talks
about empathy and seldom
discusses compassion or
strength of character. Yet,
EKists are supposed to be
"strong" and "be able to
survive under any and all
conditions."

I guess that EKists are
used to filling in the blanks
and the gaps that Klemp
overlooks or is incapable
of seeing. Their imaginations
and pretend "spiritual"
techniques help to renew
their faith with fictitious
beliefs and unreliable
(and typically religious)
promises. But, if one reads
between the lines, doesn't
it seem like Klemp might
be building an underground
bunker for himself (and a
select few) and encouraging
other EKists to do the same?


Prometheus

Hello All,
I was going though some
old papers and found some
notes of former observations
and evaluations of an ESA
Roundtable session.

It always irritated me when
I saw how some H.I.s were
sucked into the arrogance
of the EK hierarchy.

Basically, it's seen as the
EK flowing from: Sugmad;
into the Mahanta (Klemp);
then down to the 9th
initiates; 8th initiates;
then to the 7th RESAs;
then to the other 7ths;
then to the ESA 6ths; to
the initiator 6ths; to the
Clerical 6ths; then to the
5ths who are clerics; to
the other 5ths; then,
on down.

Of course those holding
titles/positions such as
Satsang President or a
Director title or whatever
would be channeled in
before someone not as
outwardly devout.

Therefore, everyone in
Eckankar must know their
place within the pecking
order. It's mostly an un-
spoken law, but don't be
mistaken as to the power
of the Hierarchy. It's alive
and well and does influence
people and affects how
they behave, speak, see,
feel, think and evaluate
others.

Thus, the ECKankar concept
of Soul=Soul (spiritual equality)
is a misnomer and an imaginary
pipe dream. As Below, So Above.

Prometheus

Actually, the whole pecking order with Eckankar is more about worldly affects,
rather than spiritual. They use different titles but it's essentially the same
as any corporate hierarchy as extant today. They have a product to sell that's
more imaginary than real. The last seminar I attended was the one they did when
they first opened that temple outside Minneapolis. They really pushed the books,
and people bought lots of them. I felt that the books were way over-priced. I
attended a workshop on "Love In Everyday Life." About a dozen people came to it.
Next door was a workshop on "Soul Travel." More than 500 people attended it.
Pretty obvious what most people were interested in doing. Psychic Tourism is
alive and doing well. Great way to increase the bottom line. Eckankar is a
proven money-maker. That's the only reason and purpose of their organization. I
remember HK bragging at the time that he had an annual salary of only 25K per
year. Yeah, sure and he stays in 5-star hotels, with a retinue of privately
hired security guards, and uses a private jet. Heard that BS before.

Lisa

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I was going though some
> old papers and found some
> notes of former observations
> and evaluations of an ESA
> Roundtable session.
>
> It always irritated me when
> I saw how some H.I.s were
> sucked into the arrogance
> of the EK hierarchy.
>
> Basically, it's seen as the
> EK flowing from: Sugmad;
> into the Mahanta (Klemp);
> then down to the 9th
> initiates; 8th initiates;
> then to the 7th RESAs;
> then to the other 7ths;
> then to the ESA 6ths; to
> the initiator 6ths; to the
> Clerical 6ths; then to the
> 5ths who are clerics; to
> the other 5ths; then,
> on down.
>
> Of course those holding
> titles/positions such as
> Satsang President or a
> Director title or whatever
> would be channeled in
> before someone not as
> outwardly devout.
>
> Therefore, everyone in
> Eckankar must know their
> place within the pecking
> order. It's mostly an un-
> spoken law, but don't be
> mistaken as to the power
> of the Hierarchy. It's alive
> and well and does influence
> people and affects how
> they behave, speak, see,
> feel, think and evaluate
> others.
>
> Thus, the ECKankar concept
> of Soul=Soul (spiritual equality)
> is a misnomer and an imaginary
> pipe dream. As Below, So Above.
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Femsage,
Thanks for sharing your
thoughts and experiences.
[This post has been revised]

Yes, Eckankar's pecking
order is not a "spiritual"
one, but their three leaders,
PT, DG, and HK have said
it was. Therefore EKists
will believe this because
they've put their trust in
people who have claimed
to be "Masters" but have
ulterior motives.

When selling a religion the
conmen, and it's always
men, have to make "spiritual"
claims.

After the founder, Twitchell,
established his religion
the wannabes, like with
Darwin Gross and Harold
Klemp, started to line up.
It, now, comes down to
inheriting the position.
Most religions work this
way. With Gross he was
assisted by the founder's
wife whom with he was
having an affair.

When the founder can't
pass the power and title
on, then, it becomes a
political power play
which is always suspect.
Klemp's inheritance is
even more suspect since
it was tied to a corrupted
leader passing it on as
though he had the "spiritual"
ability/authority and
validation to do so.

However, Klemp, after the
fact, brought the fictional
EK Master Rebazar into play
in order to give himself added
validation in order to silence
his critics. Klemp learned
from seeing what Twitchell
had done when he, too,
came under criticism and
created the story and character
of Rebazar Tarzs.

PT created Rebazar in order
to silence his critics by assigning/
initiating himself to a realm
of All Knowingness, in order
to have validation and spiritual
authority over all other "Masters."

Now comes Klemp and the
trickle-down effect of a
spiritual hierarchy in a new
way via the RESA structure,
a new take on the old versions
of typical "physical plane"
hierarchies. Klemp became
somewhat paranoid via his
own nefarious take over and
saw the need to keep people
under his control and on a
short leash.

True, Eckankar is run some-
what like a corporate hierarchy
and it's even run like a political
hierarchy. But, in many ways
it's more strict and has more
incompetence and, therefore,
it is run more like a military
hierarchy.

The physical plane Hierarchy
of Eckankar isn't discussed in
detail for outsiders, but there
are Flow Charts available that
show the main org at the ESC
and how these organizational
branches of the Satsang
Societies' positions relate to
these.

Locally, everyone falls under
the RESA, but there are certain
positions that report to others
under the RESA and some have
a counterpart at the ESC. Also,
these ESC counterparts can be
contacted, at times, and generally
have the last word involving
a specific area of expertise/
responsibility which is even
over that of the RESA.

And, of course, we also
have the initiation ranking/
pecking order.

Most people don't realize
nor understand all of the
internal workings but these
are important as to how
Eckankar functions.

Basically, it's a mixed bag
of worms since the only
ones being paid are those
at the Eckankar Spiritual
Center (ESC). Volunteers
need more encouragement
and carrot dangling.

BTW- It is interesting to
see where the focus is
depending upon topic,
time slot, room size,
and who the facilitators
are.

Love in Everyday
Life versus Soul Travel?

That was a long time
ago and they were using
the more mystical hook
back then than they are
now, at times. Sometimes
they alternate or mix it
up. I think that Klemp
now uses a "theme"
approach which repeats
every 12 years. This time
it's "A Year of Consecration"
and it'll all be more of
the same. EK Seminars
are more of a social
gathering with wide-eyed
idol worship.


Prometheus

femsage wrote:
Actually, the whole pecking order with Eckankar is more about worldly affects,
rather than spiritual. They use different titles but it's essentially the same
as any corporate hierarchy as extant today. They have a product to sell that's
more imaginary than real. The last seminar I attended was the one they did when
they first opened that temple outside Minneapolis. They really pushed the books,
and people bought lots of them. I felt that the books were way over-priced. I
attended a workshop on "Love In Everyday Life." About a dozen people came to it.
Next door was a workshop on "Soul Travel." More than 500 people attended it.
Pretty obvious what most people were interested in doing. Psychic Tourism is
alive and doing well. Great way to increase the bottom line. Eckankar is a
proven money-maker. That's the only reason and purpose of their organization. I
remember HK bragging at the time that he had an annual salary of only 25K per
year. Yeah, sure and he stays in 5-star hotels, with a retinue of privately
hired security guards, and uses a private jet. Heard that BS before.

Lisa

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I was going though some
> old papers and found some
> notes of former observations
> and evaluations of an ESA
> Roundtable session.
>
> It always irritated me when
> I saw how some H.I.s were
> sucked into the arrogance
> of the EK hierarchy.
>
> Basically, it's seen as the
> EK flowing from: Sugmad;
> into the Mahanta (Klemp);
> then down to the 9th
> initiates; 8th initiates;
> then to the 7th RESAs;
> then to the other 7ths;
> then to the ESA 6ths; to
> the initiator 6ths; to the
> Clerical 6ths; then to the
> 5ths who are clerics; to
> the other 5ths; then,
> on down.
>
> Of course those holding
> titles/positions such as
> Satsang President or a
> Director title or whatever
> would be channeled in
> before someone not as
> outwardly devout.
>
> Therefore, everyone in
> Eckankar must know their
> place within the pecking
> order. It's mostly an un-
> spoken law, but don't be
> mistaken as to the power
> of the Hierarchy. It's alive
> and well and does influence
> people and affects how
> they behave, speak, see,
> feel, think and evaluate
> others.
>
> Thus, the ECKankar concept
> of Soul=Soul (spiritual equality)
> is a misnomer and an imaginary
> pipe dream. As Below, So Above.
>
> Prometheus