Thats an interesting point about HK using Bait and Switch to get new members by
promising "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
Liberation" but then switching it up and demanding (suggesting)  Mahanta
Codependency. It would be interesting to see how many Eckists started off on the
path with problems with their father. I know I did as well as many others that I
know of. It is so easy to get swarmed up in this feel good promise of
Self-Mastery while codependency is subtly being reinforced at every turn. Before
you know it codependency along with the threats about leaving the path can take
a heavy toll on someone with a strong urge for independence.

BTW, I think if there is such a thing as a Mahanta then it is our OWN HIGHEST
STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

I AM

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello I AM and All,
> Actually Klemp did cite some
> studies and I Googled it myself
> and saw that there is proof that
> identical twins share similarities.
> The mirrored behaviors could
> be genetical with brain frequencies
> and brain function being the
> same due to a quantum mechanical
> influence. I threw that last one
> in on my own, but who knows?
>
> I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
> use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
> Twin Soul concept. But, he did
> use the Lords of Karma ruse
> which, BTW, is not solely owned
> by Eckankar.
>
> Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
> to get new members by promising
> "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
> Liberation" but then he switches
> it up and demands (suggests)
> Mahanta Codependency and Sales
> Team participation in order to,
> possibly, get promoted and receive
> "Spiritual Rewards."
>
> It is funny that Klemp claims to
> take "Free Will" away from Souls
> who join Eckankar and follow him.
> Does this mean that those Souls
> who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
> have Free Will? It sounds like it!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> iam999freedom wrote:
> Hi Prometheus,
> Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
> improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same
type
> of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
> perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
> do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
> the environment.
>
> As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
> each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
> merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
>
> According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
> right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
> listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
>
> What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
> Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and
love
> etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
> prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
>
> I AM
>
> prometheus_973" wrote:
> >
> > Hello I Am,
> > Okay, let me give it
> > a shot and use some
> > excerpts etc.
> >
> > HK's talking about
> > psychological studies
> > using identical twins
> > (not conjoined) that
> > were separated soon
> > after birth. They grew
> > up elsewhere and had
> > different influences
> > but dressed the same
> > and had the same type
> > of dog and gave the
> > dog the same name etc.,
> > etc.
> >
> > Thus, it seems that
> > Free Will relies upon
> > genetics (nature) more
> > than it does upon nurture,
> > although, HK says that
> > Yogi Berra stated that
> > "in theory, practice doesn't
> > matter; in practice, it does."
> >
> > BTW- According to Klemp
> > "The Lords of Karma have
> > selected a body with the
> > appropriate genes for each
> > student."
> >
> > However, HK has somewhat
> > contradicted what is in CH.
> > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
> > that "the spiritual workers
> > created man and placed
> > within him a living imperishable
> > Spirit, called Soul."
> >
> > There is no other mention
> > of these "spiritual workers."
> >
> > Anywho-
> >
> > HK is so clever the way
> > he'll twist a quote to add
> > even more confusion to
> > his message of absolute
> > servitude and obedience.
> >
> > I counted HK using "But"
> > four times. In an old H.I.
> > Letter he said never to
> > use "But" with one another
> > and that it was a nail in
> > the coffin of invention and
> > took away from what was
> > previously said.
> >
> > HK:
> > "BUT they dug in their heels
> > at the finding that such twins'
> > IQs were nearly as similar as
> > their heights."
> >
> > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
> > set. A kind owner may let it out
> > into the room on occasion. BUT
> > it is still in a house."
> >
> > "Researchers, too, can advance
> > only to a fixed point in their studies
> > of what elements make up a whole
> > individual. BUT they do not have
> > a magical key to the spiritual self.
> > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
> >
> > Funny that Klemp states that he
> > holds "a magical key" to control
> > others like a Black Magician would.
> >
> > "The Mahanta alone can help people
> > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
> > must have the right kind and amount
> > of daily experiences."
> >
> > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
> > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
> > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
> > the "right kind and amount of daily
> > experiences."
> >
> > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
> > doesn't like science and psychologists
> > since getting locked up in an asylum
> > and having to "play-the-game" to
> > be released early.
> >
> > HK states that "Real free will rests
> > entirely on trusting the Master's
> > prompts [signs?] as to which of
> > many choices to make in all things
> > human and divine."
> >
> > In other words do as I say not
> > as I do and there is no such
> > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
> > Does that kind sound like Cult
> > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
> > and scarier! HK goes on to say
> > that "He gives suggestions" and
> > "seldom does he issue directives...
> > True Free Will of an individual
> > stands upon the Mahanta's
> > guidance."
> >
> > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
> > as he speaks from experience:
> > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
> > ingrained ideas about patterns
> > against them. A subject thinks
> > he has the quick mind and eyes
> > to catch a Magician in an act,
> > even while he is being unburdened
> > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
> > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
> > played upon people by illusion."
> >
> > "Again, keep in-touch with the
> > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
> > exercises," but write those snail-
> > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
> > thinking and so I can use those
> > stories for my next book.
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom wrote:
> > Hi Prometheus,
> >
> > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
about
> > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
myself:
> > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
> >
> > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
> > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
> > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
> > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
> > different character than the other."
> >
> > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the
Wisdom
> > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
> morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
> >
> > I still have yet to receive a response.
> >
> > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
> Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > I AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > prometheus_wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

Yes Janice those are very thoughtful insights into Eckthink. No questions
whatsoever about the teachings. Just take it to the inner and if there is no
answer there it must be the seeker who is doing something wrong.

I can remember a 4th initiate who kept saying he followed Eckankar on blind
faith. Imagine being on a path for more than 20 years and just blindly following
it. And the guy had a law degree! LOL

At what point does the cattle drive stop? There was a time when HK strongly
suggested (demanded) that Eckists bring anybody they knew into their local Eck
Centre for a look see and to hopefully buy a book. I was so embarrassed about it
all I just couldn't bring myself to do it!

I AM

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
>
> Sounds like to me two things are going on.  HK is changing the teachings of
eckankar to concentrate on other things so people will stop talking about Paul
Twitchell's antics.  Second, it seems eckankar is getting more desperate to
drum up new members.  A few years ago it was TV adds and now it is facebook. 
One thing I really have trouble respecting eckist for is their lack of
independent thought.  Whenever HK changes the rules no matter how drastic his
ideas are from the few previous years, they just accept it.  Heck, they don't
even seem to notice.  They all seem like a bunch of sheep who are expected to
mirror whatever HK does. It is so pathetic in my opinion. 
> I guess HK now needs angels since he can relate those to his former Lutheran
Bible teachings.  Even if he isn't using them as the Bible teaches, it is
something he couldn't invent for himself.   The man just has no imagination or
creativity at all.  He sounds desperate for something to replace Pauls lies. 
Why in a few years, I imagine that those of us who got out wouldn't even
recognize the eckankar teachings after  they do get rid of all that paul
compiled and stole.  Yet eckist go on with out noticing a thing because
whatever HK says must be right. 
> --- On Wed, 1/2/13, prometheus_973  wrote:
>
>
> From: prometheus_973
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: ECKankar is on Facebook
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2013, 7:17 PM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Happy New Year Everyone!
> I thought I'd bring this
> subject back for another
> look. I've noticed that
> the FB activity has picked
> up for EKists. Odd isn't it,
> that the EMF/EMR dangers
> have been set aside as
> though it never existed.
>
> Isn't it odd, as well, that
> ECKists are so preoccupied
> with angels of the non-
> human kind? I think it is.
> They write and read and
> recommend books on:
> Animal Angels; Dog Angels;
> Cat Angels; Horse Angels.
> Whatever happened to
> Human (people) Angels?
>
> Or, are these EK Masters
> mistaken for angels?
> Actually, it doesn't seem
> so. They wouldn't lower
> themselves to the mundane.
> I'm thinking of the "Parking
> Space Angel."
>
> Angels, according to
> Klemp's 1st Lexicon,
> are defined as:
>
> "Beings above the ordinary
> man who help to serve
> man in many ways; also
> called PRETS, DEVTAS,
> BHUTS, DEVAS, etc. They
> have great powers and
> are quite willing to serve
> people who live in harmony
> with them." [page 10]
>
> However, HK never mentions
> "Animal" Angels of any sort.
> Plus, when I looked up BHUTS
> in the same EK Lexicon it
> stated: "Beings in the subtle
> region close to earth; a kind
> of ANGEL above ordinary
> humans who help in many
> ways." [page 22]
>
> So, now Klemp is saying
> that these "beings" are a
> "kind of Angel." Plus, HK
> states that these angels
> of sorts (Bhuts, Devas,
> Devtas, Prets) reside "in
> the subtle region close
> to earth." So, where would
> that be? Okay. It's the
> ASTRAL PLANE!
>
> However, Klemp also
> states that these Angels
> are "above the ordinary
> man." But, don't ECKists
> believe that they, too,
> are above the ordinary
> man and are, also, above
> these Astral Plane Angels?
>
> Really, this is just common
> logic via using Eckankar's
> own dogma and Klemp's
> approved view of these
> matters.
>
> Therefore, why do EKists
> have a need for Angels of
> any sort when they, themselves,
> should be above the "great"
> Astral Powers of these angels?
>
> Well, the truth is that EKists
> have no powers because
> Klemp (their LEM/Mahanta)
> has no powers.
>
> Therefore, EKists have to
> imagine that someone else
> (angels, masters, mahanta)
> are in charge and lord over
> them. Except, EKists are the
> ones who always do the real
> serving.
>
> Strange that Angels have
> become the imaginary caregivers
> for animals versus mankind.
>
> Whatever happened to Prajapati
> the ECK Master who cares for
> animals [pg. 163]? Why aren't
> ECKists looking to or writing
> about him? Is it this "Common
> Language" thing, again, where
> EKists fool people into believing
> they, too, have "angel" beliefs?
> I think so! It's a scam that these
> EKists are playing on themselves
> and others.
>
> Plus, this same 1st EK Lexicon
> talks about the "Protean Soul."
> It's a "Higher form of the ASTRAL
> BODY used at times by the Master
> to appear to the chela; his thought
> can force it to assume any shape
> or form." [page 167]
>
> So, are these Angels actually
> the Protean Soul, Upper Astral
> Body, of Master Klemp? Hmmm.
> I wonder why he doesn't appear
> in this form at EK Seminars in
> Afrika. I guess, according to
> ones imaginable capabilities
> and powers of suggestion,
> he does!
>
> Prometheus
>
> prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> Isn't it odd that Klemp,
> who talks about the
> harm that EMF/EMR can
> cause, is encouraging
> EKists to "friend/subscribe"
> ECKankar on FACEBOOK!
>
> Is HK intentionally putting
> ECKists in harm's way?
>
> Or, is there no longer any
> concern for harm caused
> by EMF/EMR?
>
> Klemp claims to "protect"
> ECKists but I'm not sure
> from what. And, I doubt
> that ECKists are all that
> sure either. Is the EMF
> scare, now, no longer
> convenient since EK is
> on FB?
>
> Klemp doesn't protect EKies
> from making bad decisions
> so there's no guidance is
> there? It seems HK will say
> anything when it benefits
> him and he can side-step
> responsibility.
>
> After all, Klemp doesn't protect
> his chelas from getting cancer
> or from getting other diseases
> on this lowest of Planes. Where
> is the GODman's power to protect?
> Klemp can't even "protect" his
> chelas by directing them to
> the right doctor, insurance,
> or preventative procedures.
> Was HK's fall on "Black Ice"
> a Waking Dream or ECK Wisdom
> for ECKists to see that Klemp
> is a "Black Magician?" Is the
> ECK warning ECKists by causing
> HK to break his hip? Or, did
> HK's negativity "cause" him
> to be injured? Klemp can't
> even "protect" himself, or
> is the story/excuse a continuation
> of the holding tank for karma
> con?
>
> This, lack of outer protection
> and inner guidance is strange
> since (according to EK Dogma)
> Klemp, as the LEM/Mahanta,
> has authority over his chelas
> versus that of KAL.
>
> Promises, promises, but no
> help. If anything, Klemp uses
> negativity by side-stepping
> his own responsibility to his
> followers and doing a reversal
> ploy (with guilt) by placing
> blame on the ECKists for not
> doing everything they should
> have done (spiritually). Have
> they: Contemplated daily;
> HUed; are arahatas; are
> vahanas; volunteer, read
> the Shariyat; keep a dream
> journal; follow the four zoas;
> donate money; blah, blah!
> Or, didn't the suffering EKist
> "believe" strong enough?
> Wasn't he/she completely
> delusional and stupid and
> this is why "bad" common
> and everyday things happened...
> like with those who don't
> have the Mahanta's protection.
>
> Maybe some EKists have trusted
> too much in the Mahanta and
> didn't follow through on that
> medical condition and check-up
> as a more rational person would
> have done?
>
> Really!
>
> If Klemp never accepts
> blame for not being there,
> except in the occasional
> dream or an imagined mock-
> up, then, that leaves only
> the chela as the responsible
> adult. In truth Klemp is harming
> ECKists by misleading them
> to think that he is guiding
> and protecting them via
> "signs" etc.
>
> What a scam! What a con!
> Yet, ECKists, somehow,
> don't seem to mind nor
> are they capable of connecting-
> the-dots in order to see
> through their veil of delusion.
> There is a correlation with
> Klemp and ECKankar to all
> other fake masters, Popes,
> preachers and to all of the
> other false religions in the
> world. ECKists need to Wake
> the "F" Up... before it's too
> late!
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Janice,
Yes, one would think that
a "Modern Day Prophet"
would, at least, attempt
to live up to his PR, but
that's not the case with
Klemp. Why put himself
out there by demonstrating
his powers? It's not like
he announced to the
whole world that he was....
oh wait, he did!

That was a long time ago
and he never did make
any predictions as most
prophets do. Even Twit
made some predictions.
But, I'm sure that EKists
haven't noticed and don't
mine and that's why he
doesn't feel any pressure
to preform his responsibilities
as a real prophet.

Instead, Harold is very
cautious of being too
direct and understood.
He'd rather have EKists
fill-in the blanks and
imagine what they want,
need and expect until
they go too far and have
to have a behaviour
adjustment by their RESA.
That's why Klemp usually
gives a very one dimensional
perspective when he tells
a story.

Plus, Klemp's lazy so
why put too much
effort into it! And, he
figures that all he needs
to do is the KISS thing
of Keeping It Simple (for)
Stupid. Of course EKies
will substitute Soul for
Stupid but Stupid fits!

It's really quite amazing
how simple Klemp's
redundant message is.
If EKists would just compare
Klemp's simple minded
witticisms to other "spiritual"
leaders one would have
to wonder what they see
in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
but they just laugh at his
quirkiness because he's
operating on so many
high planes of consciousness
simultaneously. LOL!

Just Google Kristamurti's
quotes or the Dali Lama's.
Klemp, the great Mahanta,
isn't even in the same ball
park with the current Dali
Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
(pg. 385) he claims that
Buddhism is a 4th Plane
religion while Eckankar
is a 14th Plane Religion!
But, EKists need to compare
the two leaders and how
they present themselves
and what they have to say.

Will ECKists make the
comparison? No, of course
not! They won't even allow
the door to be opened a
crack because some light
might get in and show
them the Truth. They can't
handle the Truth and
would rather remain ignorant.
It's much easier, besides,
what would they replace
Eckankar with? It's too much
responsibility to think for
oneself and exercise free
will. And, it would make
life too lonely to lose all
of those EK friends.

Prometheus








Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
child was or was not the soul of his mother?  Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
least.  He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly.  I guess he is
afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
the same question and he might give the opposite answer.  Smells like a
charlatan to me.


Prometheus wrote:

The December 2012
Eckankar Mystic World
in the Ask the Master
section are two interesting
questions and answers.

The first question has
to do with Stress and
how to overcome it.

HK's answer is wishy-
washy at best. He says
that stress is "very
uncomfortable... Yet
stress is a good teacher."

Klemp goes on to say
that people can increase
their tolerance to stress
by eating healthy, getting
enough sleep, and by
"Reducing our overuse
of electronic devices."

In other words it seems
Klemp is saying, in a
roundabout way, to use
moderation. After all,
he's saying to reduce
"overuse."

Then, again, how does
a EK staffer at the ESC
not use their computer
8 hours a day?

The next question involves
reincarnation. This guy's
wife gave birth to a baby
boy and two days later his
mother translated (died).
He indirectly asked if this
new baby was his mother.

Instead of giving this EKist
a direct answer, Klemp,
the wishy-washy Mahanta
says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
When it comes to rebirth,
anything at all can happen...
Whichever Soul is now your
son, everything is in accord
with what is best for all around."

Prometheus

So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
"living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
etc.

Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
Hello Janice,
Yes, one would think that
a "Modern Day Prophet"
would, at least, attempt
to live up to his PR, but
that's not the case with
Klemp. Why put himself
out there by demonstrating
his powers? It's not like
he announced to the
whole world that he was....
oh wait, he did!

That was a long time ago
and he never did make
any predictions as most
prophets do. Even Twit
made some predictions.
But, I'm sure that EKists
haven't noticed and don't
mine and that's why he
doesn't feel any pressure
to preform his responsibilities
as a real prophet.

Instead, Harold is very
cautious of being too
direct and understood.
He'd rather have EKists
fill-in the blanks and
imagine what they want,
need and expect until
they go too far and have
to have a behaviour
adjustment by their RESA.
That's why Klemp usually
gives a very one dimensional
perspective when he tells
a story.

Plus, Klemp's lazy so
why put too much
effort into it! And, he
figures that all he needs
to do is the KISS thing
of Keeping It Simple (for)
Stupid. Of course EKies
will substitute Soul for
Stupid but Stupid fits!

It's really quite amazing
how simple Klemp's
redundant message is.
If EKists would just compare
Klemp's simple minded
witticisms to other "spiritual"
leaders one would have
to wonder what they see
in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
but they just laugh at his
quirkiness because he's
operating on so many
high planes of consciousness
simultaneously. LOL!

Just Google Kristamurti's
quotes or the Dali Lama's.
Klemp, the great Mahanta,
isn't even in the same ball
park with the current Dali
Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
(pg. 385) he claims that
Buddhism is a 4th Plane
religion while Eckankar
is a 14th Plane Religion!
But, EKists need to compare
the two leaders and how
they present themselves
and what they have to say.

Will ECKists make the
comparison? No, of course
not! They won't even allow
the door to be opened a
crack because some light
might get in and show
them the Truth. They can't
handle the Truth and
would rather remain ignorant.
It's much easier, besides,
what would they replace
Eckankar with? It's too much
responsibility to think for
oneself and exercise free
will. And, it would make
life too lonely to lose all
of those EK friends.

Prometheus








Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
charlatan to me.


Prometheus wrote:

The December 2012
Eckankar Mystic World
in the Ask the Master
section are two interesting
questions and answers.

The first question has
to do with Stress and
how to overcome it.

HK's answer is wishy-
washy at best. He says
that stress is "very
uncomfortable... Yet
stress is a good teacher."

Klemp goes on to say
that people can increase
their tolerance to stress
by eating healthy, getting
enough sleep, and by
"Reducing our overuse
of electronic devices."

In other words it seems
Klemp is saying, in a
roundabout way, to use
moderation. After all,
he's saying to reduce
"overuse."

Then, again, how does
a EK staffer at the ESC
not use their computer
8 hours a day?

The next question involves
reincarnation. This guy's
wife gave birth to a baby
boy and two days later his
mother translated (died).
He indirectly asked if this
new baby was his mother.

Instead of giving this EKist
a direct answer, Klemp,
the wishy-washy Mahanta
says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
When it comes to rebirth,
anything at all can happen...
Whichever Soul is now your
son, everything is in accord
with what is best for all around."

Prometheus

Hello Non and All,
Thanks for the insightful
summary. I was exploring
the dogma of some fundamentalist
charismatic Christian churches
and saw a reference to a
minor (Jewish) prophet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk

This person is mentioned
not by Jesus but by one of
his apostles in order to inspire
Faith.

Even when God seems to
turn his back and: causes
crops to fail; flocks to be
lost; cities attacked and
overrun by your enemies;
people brutalized, tortured
and killed, one is to have
Faith in God and a hereafter
reward for keeping this
faith. God's ego needs
you to believe in him
regardless of what pain
he allows to befall you.

One needs to project
a sense of hope in order
to better endure life, as
it is, no matter how bad.

And, it's easier to face these
challenges when you believe
that God is on your side and
not that of your oppressor.

However, does God really
take sides? It seems that God
is/was created in man's image.

All of this, it seems, is simply
an experiment to see if we
are all capable of evolving
into our "spiritual" potential.
Are we to become more than
merely a divine thought?
Maybe there is something
more to that piece of a mirror
analogy.

Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
has the belief that you (and your
fellow believers or countrymen)
deserved the punishments as
repayment for sin. Some call it
Karma or cause and effect, or
what you sow you reap. Plus,
most religions see everyday
living and hardships as a test
of faith. Yet, one is supposed
to donate money to support
the specific dogma that, basically,
says and promises the same
or similar things in the imagined
hereafter.

Plus, each religion has always
blamed the non-believers for
the sins that they suffer under
as well. Eckankar is no different
and Klemp is more like these
preachers than EKists could ever
admit.

Well, got to go now....
I just had some thoughts
to share.

Prometheus

"Non"  wrote:
So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual exercises,
because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond maybe
a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
"living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the master
etc.

Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the new
World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in Tibet
in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living eck
master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
is a more appropriate title to his life story.)

They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign on
the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out it
is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.

Non ;)

prometheus wrote:

Hello Janice,
Yes, one would think that
a "Modern Day Prophet"
would, at least, attempt
to live up to his PR, but
that's not the case with
Klemp. Why put himself
out there by demonstrating
his powers? It's not like
he announced to the
whole world that he was....
oh wait, he did!

That was a long time ago
and he never did make
any predictions as most
prophets do. Even Twit
made some predictions.
But, I'm sure that EKists
haven't noticed and don't
mine and that's why he
doesn't feel any pressure
to preform his responsibilities
as a real prophet.

Instead, Harold is very
cautious of being too
direct and understood.
He'd rather have EKists
fill-in the blanks and
imagine what they want,
need and expect until
they go too far and have
to have a behaviour
adjustment by their RESA.
That's why Klemp usually
gives a very one dimensional
perspective when he tells
a story.

Plus, Klemp's lazy so
why put too much
effort into it! And, he
figures that all he needs
to do is the KISS thing
of Keeping It Simple (for)
Stupid. Of course EKies
will substitute Soul for
Stupid but Stupid fits!

It's really quite amazing
how simple Klemp's
redundant message is.
If EKists would just compare
Klemp's simple minded
witticisms to other "spiritual"
leaders one would have
to wonder what they see
in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
but they just laugh at his
quirkiness because he's
operating on so many
high planes of consciousness
simultaneously. LOL!

Just Google Kristamurti's
quotes or the Dali Lama's.
Klemp, the great Mahanta,
isn't even in the same ball
park with the current Dali
Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
(pg. 385) he claims that
Buddhism is a 4th Plane
religion while Eckankar
is a 14th Plane Religion!
But, EKists need to compare
the two leaders and how
they present themselves
and what they have to say.

Will ECKists make the
comparison? No, of course
not! They won't even allow
the door to be opened a
crack because some light
might get in and show
them the Truth. They can't
handle the Truth and
would rather remain ignorant.
It's much easier, besides,
what would they replace
Eckankar with? It's too much
responsibility to think for
oneself and exercise free
will. And, it would make
life too lonely to lose all
of those EK friends.

Prometheus


Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that the
child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
charlatan to me.


Prometheus wrote:

The December 2012
Eckankar Mystic World
in the Ask the Master
section are two interesting
questions and answers.

The first question has
to do with Stress and
how to overcome it.

HK's answer is wishy-
washy at best. He says
that stress is "very
uncomfortable... Yet
stress is a good teacher."

Klemp goes on to say
that people can increase
their tolerance to stress
by eating healthy, getting
enough sleep, and by
"Reducing our overuse
of electronic devices."

In other words it seems
Klemp is saying, in a
roundabout way, to use
moderation. After all,
he's saying to reduce
"overuse."

Then, again, how does
a EK staffer at the ESC
not use their computer
8 hours a day?

The next question involves
reincarnation. This guy's
wife gave birth to a baby
boy and two days later his
mother translated (died).
He indirectly asked if this
new baby was his mother.

Instead of giving this EKist
a direct answer, Klemp,
the wishy-washy Mahanta
says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
When it comes to rebirth,
anything at all can happen...
Whichever Soul is now your
son, everything is in accord
with what is best for all around."

Prometheus

Yes Non, combine authoritarianism with unconditional love for the master and you
get a submissive control pattern as your reward. Buyer beware!

Prometheus, you wrote:
"All of this, it seems, is simply
an experiment to see if we
are all capable of evolving
into our "spiritual" potential.
Are we to become more than
merely a divine thought?
Maybe there is something
more to that piece of a mirror
analogy."

I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again. I not
sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be stagnation
setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the end
result of the mirror analagy.

I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to see if we
are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static or
peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
meaning than being in a pinball machine.

Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God would take
great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment It created is
life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think that
it would ever be necessary.

Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

I AM

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Non and All,
> Thanks for the insightful
> summary. I was exploring
> the dogma of some fundamentalist
> charismatic Christian churches
> and saw a reference to a
> minor (Jewish) prophet:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
>
> This person is mentioned
> not by Jesus but by one of
> his apostles in order to inspire
> Faith.
>
> Even when God seems to
> turn his back and: causes
> crops to fail; flocks to be
> lost; cities attacked and
> overrun by your enemies;
> people brutalized, tortured
> and killed, one is to have
> Faith in God and a hereafter
> reward for keeping this
> faith. God's ego needs
> you to believe in him
> regardless of what pain
> he allows to befall you.
>
> One needs to project
> a sense of hope in order
> to better endure life, as
> it is, no matter how bad.
>
> And, it's easier to face these
> challenges when you believe
> that God is on your side and
> not that of your oppressor.
>
> However, does God really
> take sides? It seems that God
> is/was created in man's image.
>
> All of this, it seems, is simply
> an experiment to see if we
> are all capable of evolving
> into our "spiritual" potential.
> Are we to become more than
> merely a divine thought?
> Maybe there is something
> more to that piece of a mirror
> analogy.
>
> Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> has the belief that you (and your
> fellow believers or countrymen)
> deserved the punishments as
> repayment for sin. Some call it
> Karma or cause and effect, or
> what you sow you reap. Plus,
> most religions see everyday
> living and hardships as a test
> of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> to donate money to support
> the specific dogma that, basically,
> says and promises the same
> or similar things in the imagined
> hereafter.
>
> Plus, each religion has always
> blamed the non-believers for
> the sins that they suffer under
> as well. Eckankar is no different
> and Klemp is more like these
> preachers than EKists could ever
> admit.
>
> Well, got to go now....
> I just had some thoughts
> to share.
>
> Prometheus
>
> "Non"  wrote:
> So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
exercises,
> because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything beyond
maybe
> a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was from plagiarized
> material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone besides a con artist
> "living eck master", twitch and gross. He rides on the coat tails of deceivers
> and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything he says is carefully
> crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid answers to ask the
master
> etc.
>
> Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others as the
new
> World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to not believe in
> anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama is similar and
> admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia Lama and to
> always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned leadership in
Tibet
> in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question him, because as is
> stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion, with the living
eck
> master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle by HItler) by klemp
> is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
>
> They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when you
> think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
on
> the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
> drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
it
> is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
>
> Non ;)
>
> prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Janice,
> Yes, one would think that
> a "Modern Day Prophet"
> would, at least, attempt
> to live up to his PR, but
> that's not the case with
> Klemp. Why put himself
> out there by demonstrating
> his powers? It's not like
> he announced to the
> whole world that he was....
> oh wait, he did!
>
> That was a long time ago
> and he never did make
> any predictions as most
> prophets do. Even Twit
> made some predictions.
> But, I'm sure that EKists
> haven't noticed and don't
> mine and that's why he
> doesn't feel any pressure
> to preform his responsibilities
> as a real prophet.
>
> Instead, Harold is very
> cautious of being too
> direct and understood.
> He'd rather have EKists
> fill-in the blanks and
> imagine what they want,
> need and expect until
> they go too far and have
> to have a behaviour
> adjustment by their RESA.
> That's why Klemp usually
> gives a very one dimensional
> perspective when he tells
> a story.
>
> Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> why put too much
> effort into it! And, he
> figures that all he needs
> to do is the KISS thing
> of Keeping It Simple (for)
> Stupid. Of course EKies
> will substitute Soul for
> Stupid but Stupid fits!
>
> It's really quite amazing
> how simple Klemp's
> redundant message is.
> If EKists would just compare
> Klemp's simple minded
> witticisms to other "spiritual"
> leaders one would have
> to wonder what they see
> in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> but they just laugh at his
> quirkiness because he's
> operating on so many
> high planes of consciousness
> simultaneously. LOL!
>
> Just Google Kristamurti's
> quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> isn't even in the same ball
> park with the current Dali
> Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> (pg. 385) he claims that
> Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> religion while Eckankar
> is a 14th Plane Religion!
> But, EKists need to compare
> the two leaders and how
> they present themselves
> and what they have to say.
>
> Will ECKists make the
> comparison? No, of course
> not! They won't even allow
> the door to be opened a
> crack because some light
> might get in and show
> them the Truth. They can't
> handle the Truth and
> would rather remain ignorant.
> It's much easier, besides,
> what would they replace
> Eckankar with? It's too much
> responsibility to think for
> oneself and exercise free
> will. And, it would make
> life too lonely to lose all
> of those EK friends.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
the
> child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say the
> least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
> afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
> the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> charlatan to me.
>
>
> Prometheus wrote:
>
> The December 2012
> Eckankar Mystic World
> in the Ask the Master
> section are two interesting
> questions and answers.
>
> The first question has
> to do with Stress and
> how to overcome it.
>
> HK's answer is wishy-
> washy at best. He says
> that stress is "very
> uncomfortable... Yet
> stress is a good teacher."
>
> Klemp goes on to say
> that people can increase
> their tolerance to stress
> by eating healthy, getting
> enough sleep, and by
> "Reducing our overuse
> of electronic devices."
>
> In other words it seems
> Klemp is saying, in a
> roundabout way, to use
> moderation. After all,
> he's saying to reduce
> "overuse."
>
> Then, again, how does
> a EK staffer at the ESC
> not use their computer
> 8 hours a day?
>
> The next question involves
> reincarnation. This guy's
> wife gave birth to a baby
> boy and two days later his
> mother translated (died).
> He indirectly asked if this
> new baby was his mother.
>
> Instead of giving this EKist
> a direct answer, Klemp,
> the wishy-washy Mahanta
> says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> When it comes to rebirth,
> anything at all can happen...
> Whichever Soul is now your
> son, everything is in accord
> with what is best for all around."
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello I Am, Non, and All,
I'm not so sure that humans
will ever become like, God,
our imagined or possible
creator. And, if at all, certainly
not in any lifetime soon.

But, it could be that the
universe(s) just happened
and that the remnants of
other life forms were spread
to this planet, and others,
via space rubble... from
destroyed civilizations
and planets. Or, was it an
intentional seeding by an
advanced race... which was,
itself, seeded by another
advanced race etc.

Maybe the "spiritual"
experiences we have
are the result of
interaction with the
quantum mechanical
field?

Anyway, it seems to me
that what really matters
are relationships. It's our
relationships with others,
even strangers, that matter
most. This is how we really
learn and grow. Loving
relationships are valuable.

Klemp, and others like
him, are: liars; posers;
have arrested development;
are sociopathic; narcissistic;
and are even psychopathic.
They are incapable of learning,
or caring about others (are
unloving) and attempt to
impede social progress and
justice. They use the rest of
us for their own personal
greed and selfish desires.

Then, again, this strife and
uncertainly (stress) that is
created can make life interesting
and a challenge, although,
it can/will also be physically
and emotionally painful.

But, having a regular life
without additional commitments
and involvements can also
offer rewarding experiences
and insights. We are never
all that alone. However, I'm
not sure how peace of any
sort (except in one's own mind)
will ever happen in a world
controlled by sociopaths.

One must care about everyone
and have caring relationships
with people in order for humankind
to advance and survive. To me,
this is the "spiritual" key to life.
I almost included animals, too,
but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
include "caring" about them (all)
too.

How can one really "care" about
the sociopaths and psychopaths
except to keep them away from
nice, loving and kind (normal?)
people.

When one thinks about it the
definition of what's "normal"
keeps changing. The extroverts
seem to be more pathological
than the introverts don't you
agree? Yet, the extroverts try
to force us introverts to become
extroverted. Why is that? Misery
loves company I suppose or is
it that an army of glassy-eyed
introverts acting, as if, extroverted
is more intimidating.

In any case the idea of a "God"
to worship and viewed as being
"involved" in our lives detracts
from "us" being involved in our
lives because of the differences
we see in one another. This is
why there are so many different
religious dogmas of what's right
and wrong.

Therefore, the differences in the
way in which "God" is worshipped,
for me, shows that "God" does not
exist. We don't want to be alone
nor take responsibility for our own
actions. Thus, we blame God or
use God as our scape goat.

There are major flaws with all
of these religions and the so-called
"source" of their scriptures. It's
all hearsay and the only thing
that, supposedly, gives them
validation is that these various
people in history/myth that the
scribes wrote about are claimed
to have said or done some nice,
inspirational, brave, or insightful
things a very long time ago. Age/
time (being ancient) seems to
have given them credibility, because
it is believed and taught that
only Divine Intercession could
have been the source for their
Divine Inspiration.

But, IMO, there are many people,
today, who are not even followers
of these dogmas that are as, or
more: honest; brave; insightful;
inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
than the prophets, saints, and founders
of these major and minor religions.
Many of these people inspired
others by never giving up in time
of conflict because, sometimes,
there weren't many other choices.
Even those who did give up and
had bad things befall them, still,
maintained their faith and this
fact turned them into "prophets"
or saints. If this is the standard
for religions there are an awful
lot of believers and faithful, today,
that just as deluded and desperate.

Prometheus


iam999freedom"  wrote:
Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
with unconditional love for the
master and you get a submissive
control pattern as your reward.
Buyer beware!

Prometheus, you wrote:
"All of this, it seems, is simply
an experiment to see if we
are all capable of evolving
into our "spiritual" potential.
Are we to become more than
merely a divine thought?
Maybe there is something
more to that piece of a mirror
analogy."

I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting
the end result of the mirror analagy.

I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."

I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another event.
Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a person
has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
meaning than being in a pinball machine.

Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of expressions
and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.

Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
that it would ever be necessary.

Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.

I AM

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Non and All,
> Thanks for the insightful
> summary. I was exploring
> the dogma of some fundamentalist
> charismatic Christian churches
> and saw a reference to a
> minor (Jewish) prophet:
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
>
> This person is mentioned
> not by Jesus but by one of
> his apostles in order to inspire
> Faith.
>
> Even when God seems to
> turn his back and: causes
> crops to fail; flocks to be
> lost; cities attacked and
> overrun by your enemies;
> people brutalized, tortured
> and killed, one is to have
> Faith in God and a hereafter
> reward for keeping this
> faith. God's ego needs
> you to believe in him
> regardless of what pain
> he allows to befall you.
>
> One needs to project
> a sense of hope in order
> to better endure life, as
> it is, no matter how bad.
>
> And, it's easier to face these
> challenges when you believe
> that God is on your side and
> not that of your oppressor.
>
> However, does God really
> take sides? It seems that God
> is/was created in man's image.
>
> All of this, it seems, is simply
> an experiment to see if we
> are all capable of evolving
> into our "spiritual" potential.
> Are we to become more than
> merely a divine thought?
> Maybe there is something
> more to that piece of a mirror
> analogy.
>
> Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> has the belief that you (and your
> fellow believers or countrymen)
> deserved the punishments as
> repayment for sin. Some call it
> Karma or cause and effect, or
> what you sow you reap. Plus,
> most religions see everyday
> living and hardships as a test
> of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> to donate money to support
> the specific dogma that, basically,
> says and promises the same
> or similar things in the imagined
> hereafter.
>
> Plus, each religion has always
> blamed the non-believers for
> the sins that they suffer under
> as well. Eckankar is no different
> and Klemp is more like these
> preachers than EKists could ever
> admit.
>
> Well, got to go now....
> I just had some thoughts
> to share.
>
> Prometheus
>
"Non" wrote:
So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
answers to ask the master etc.
>
Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical religion,
with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
>
They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
>
> Non ;)
>
> prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Janice,
> Yes, one would think that
> a "Modern Day Prophet"
> would, at least, attempt
> to live up to his PR, but
> that's not the case with
> Klemp. Why put himself
> out there by demonstrating
> his powers? It's not like
> he announced to the
> whole world that he was....
> oh wait, he did!
>
> That was a long time ago
> and he never did make
> any predictions as most
> prophets do. Even Twit
> made some predictions.
> But, I'm sure that EKists
> haven't noticed and don't
> mine and that's why he
> doesn't feel any pressure
> to preform his responsibilities
> as a real prophet.
>
> Instead, Harold is very
> cautious of being too
> direct and understood.
> He'd rather have EKists
> fill-in the blanks and
> imagine what they want,
> need and expect until
> they go too far and have
> to have a behaviour
> adjustment by their RESA.
> That's why Klemp usually
> gives a very one dimensional
> perspective when he tells
> a story.
>
> Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> why put too much
> effort into it! And, he
> figures that all he needs
> to do is the KISS thing
> of Keeping It Simple (for)
> Stupid. Of course EKies
> will substitute Soul for
> Stupid but Stupid fits!
>
> It's really quite amazing
> how simple Klemp's
> redundant message is.
> If EKists would just compare
> Klemp's simple minded
> witticisms to other "spiritual"
> leaders one would have
> to wonder what they see
> in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> but they just laugh at his
> quirkiness because he's
> operating on so many
> high planes of consciousness
> simultaneously. LOL!
>
> Just Google Kristamurti's
> quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> isn't even in the same ball
> park with the current Dali
> Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> (pg. 385) he claims that
> Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> religion while Eckankar
> is a 14th Plane Religion!
> But, EKists need to compare
> the two leaders and how
> they present themselves
> and what they have to say.
>
> Will ECKists make the
> comparison? No, of course
> not! They won't even allow
> the door to be opened a
> crack because some light
> might get in and show
> them the Truth. They can't
> handle the Truth and
> would rather remain ignorant.
> It's much easier, besides,
> what would they replace
> Eckankar with? It's too much
> responsibility to think for
> oneself and exercise free
> will. And, it would make
> life too lonely to lose all
> of those EK friends.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
> the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to say
> the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
> afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and ask
> the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> charlatan to me.
>
>
> Prometheus wrote:
>
> The December 2012
> Eckankar Mystic World
> in the Ask the Master
> section are two interesting
> questions and answers.
>
> The first question has
> to do with Stress and
> how to overcome it.
>
> HK's answer is wishy-
> washy at best. He says
> that stress is "very
> uncomfortable... Yet
> stress is a good teacher."
>
> Klemp goes on to say
> that people can increase
> their tolerance to stress
> by eating healthy, getting
> enough sleep, and by
> "Reducing our overuse
> of electronic devices."
>
> In other words it seems
> Klemp is saying, in a
> roundabout way, to use
> moderation. After all,
> he's saying to reduce
> "overuse."
>
> Then, again, how does
> a EK staffer at the ESC
> not use their computer
> 8 hours a day?
>
> The next question involves
> reincarnation. This guy's
> wife gave birth to a baby
> boy and two days later his
> mother translated (died).
> He indirectly asked if this
> new baby was his mother.
>
> Instead of giving this EKist
> a direct answer, Klemp,
> the wishy-washy Mahanta
> says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> When it comes to rebirth,
> anything at all can happen...
> Whichever Soul is now your
> son, everything is in accord
> with what is best for all around."
>
> Prometheus

Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.

Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.

I AM

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
>
> Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it
when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people
there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people
from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came
together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to
make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind
of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We
hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when
people are hurt, there are always others
>  who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It doesn't
take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is still love
in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that willingness to help
others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the motives of others and
learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of what we are here to
do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us everyday with horrible
stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away by foreign threats. 
Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a strong heart while those
who usually do these horrible things are afraid and broken inside.  Maybe those
sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it takes so much energy just
maintaining their facades that they don't really see the precious things in life
like those loving relationships you mentioned.  After all, most of them are so
busy hiding their
>  true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide
from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit
that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but
can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will
hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will
mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do
anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
other leaders of
>  eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
>
> --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973  wrote:
>
>
> From: prometheus_973
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> I'm not so sure that humans
> will ever become like, God,
> our imagined or possible
> creator. And, if at all, certainly
> not in any lifetime soon.
>
> But, it could be that the
> universe(s) just happened
> and that the remnants of
> other life forms were spread
> to this planet, and others,
> via space rubble... from
> destroyed civilizations
> and planets. Or, was it an
> intentional seeding by an
> advanced race... which was,
> itself, seeded by another
> advanced race etc.
>
> Maybe the "spiritual"
> experiences we have
> are the result of
> interaction with the
> quantum mechanical
> field?
>
> Anyway, it seems to me
> that what really matters
> are relationships. It's our
> relationships with others,
> even strangers, that matter
> most. This is how we really
> learn and grow. Loving
> relationships are valuable.
>
> Klemp, and others like
> him, are: liars; posers;
> have arrested development;
> are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> and are even psychopathic.
> They are incapable of learning,
> or caring about others (are
> unloving) and attempt to
> impede social progress and
> justice. They use the rest of
> us for their own personal
> greed and selfish desires.
>
> Then, again, this strife and
> uncertainly (stress) that is
> created can make life interesting
> and a challenge, although,
> it can/will also be physically
> and emotionally painful.
>
> But, having a regular life
> without additional commitments
> and involvements can also
> offer rewarding experiences
> and insights. We are never
> all that alone. However, I'm
> not sure how peace of any
> sort (except in one's own mind)
> will ever happen in a world
> controlled by sociopaths.
>
> One must care about everyone
> and have caring relationships
> with people in order for humankind
> to advance and survive. To me,
> this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> I almost included animals, too,
> but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> include "caring" about them (all)
> too.
>
> How can one really "care" about
> the sociopaths and psychopaths
> except to keep them away from
> nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> people.
>
> When one thinks about it the
> definition of what's "normal"
> keeps changing. The extroverts
> seem to be more pathological
> than the introverts don't you
> agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> to force us introverts to become
> extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> loves company I suppose or is
> it that an army of glassy-eyed
> introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> is more intimidating.
>
> In any case the idea of a "God"
> to worship and viewed as being
> "involved" in our lives detracts
> from "us" being involved in our
> lives because of the differences
> we see in one another. This is
> why there are so many different
> religious dogmas of what's right
> and wrong.
>
> Therefore, the differences in the
> way in which "God" is worshipped,
> for me, shows that "God" does not
> exist. We don't want to be alone
> nor take responsibility for our own
> actions. Thus, we blame God or
> use God as our scape goat.
>
> There are major flaws with all
> of these religions and the so-called
> "source" of their scriptures. It's
> all hearsay and the only thing
> that, supposedly, gives them
> validation is that these various
> people in history/myth that the
> scribes wrote about are claimed
> to have said or done some nice,
> inspirational, brave, or insightful
> things a very long time ago. Age/
> time (being ancient) seems to
> have given them credibility, because
> it is believed and taught that
> only Divine Intercession could
> have been the source for their
> Divine Inspiration.
>
> But, IMO, there are many people,
> today, who are not even followers
> of these dogmas that are as, or
> more: honest; brave; insightful;
> inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> than the prophets, saints, and founders
> of these major and minor religions.
> Many of these people inspired
> others by never giving up in time
> of conflict because, sometimes,
> there weren't many other choices.
> Even those who did give up and
> had bad things befall them, still,
> maintained their faith and this
> fact turned them into "prophets"
> or saints. If this is the standard
> for religions there are an awful
> lot of believers and faithful, today,
> that just as deluded and desperate.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> iam999freedom" wrote:
> Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> with unconditional love for the
> master and you get a submissive
> control pattern as your reward.
> Buyer beware!
>
> Prometheus, you wrote:
> "All of this, it seems, is simply
> an experiment to see if we
> are all capable of evolving
> into our "spiritual" potential.
> Are we to become more than
> merely a divine thought?
> Maybe there is something
> more to that piece of a mirror
> analogy."
>
> I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> the end result of the mirror analagy.
>
> I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
>
> I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
> from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
> meaning than being in a pinball machine.
>
> Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
>
> Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> that it would ever be necessary.
>
> Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
>
> I AM
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello Non and All,
> > Thanks for the insightful
> > summary. I was exploring
> > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > charismatic Christian churches
> > and saw a reference to a
> > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> >
> > This person is mentioned
> > not by Jesus but by one of
> > his apostles in order to inspire
> > Faith.
> >
> > Even when God seems to
> > turn his back and: causes
> > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > lost; cities attacked and
> > overrun by your enemies;
> > people brutalized, tortured
> > and killed, one is to have
> > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > reward for keeping this
> > faith. God's ego needs
> > you to believe in him
> > regardless of what pain
> > he allows to befall you.
> >
> > One needs to project
> > a sense of hope in order
> > to better endure life, as
> > it is, no matter how bad.
> >
> > And, it's easier to face these
> > challenges when you believe
> > that God is on your side and
> > not that of your oppressor.
> >
> > However, does God really
> > take sides? It seems that God
> > is/was created in man's image.
> >
> > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy.
> >
> > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > has the belief that you (and your
> > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > deserved the punishments as
> > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > most religions see everyday
> > living and hardships as a test
> > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > to donate money to support
> > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > says and promises the same
> > or similar things in the imagined
> > hereafter.
> >
> > Plus, each religion has always
> > blamed the non-believers for
> > the sins that they suffer under
> > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > and Klemp is more like these
> > preachers than EKists could ever
> > admit.
> >
> > Well, got to go now....
> > I just had some thoughts
> > to share.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> "Non" wrote:
> So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
> beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> answers to ask the master etc.
> >
> Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
> Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
> by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> >
> They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
> on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
> drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
> it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> >
> > Non ;)
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello Janice,
> > Yes, one would think that
> > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > would, at least, attempt
> > to live up to his PR, but
> > that's not the case with
> > Klemp. Why put himself
> > out there by demonstrating
> > his powers? It's not like
> > he announced to the
> > whole world that he was....
> > oh wait, he did!
> >
> > That was a long time ago
> > and he never did make
> > any predictions as most
> > prophets do. Even Twit
> > made some predictions.
> > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > haven't noticed and don't
> > mine and that's why he
> > doesn't feel any pressure
> > to preform his responsibilities
> > as a real prophet.
> >
> > Instead, Harold is very
> > cautious of being too
> > direct and understood.
> > He'd rather have EKists
> > fill-in the blanks and
> > imagine what they want,
> > need and expect until
> > they go too far and have
> > to have a behaviour
> > adjustment by their RESA.
> > That's why Klemp usually
> > gives a very one dimensional
> > perspective when he tells
> > a story.
> >
> > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > why put too much
> > effort into it! And, he
> > figures that all he needs
> > to do is the KISS thing
> > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > will substitute Soul for
> > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> >
> > It's really quite amazing
> > how simple Klemp's
> > redundant message is.
> > If EKists would just compare
> > Klemp's simple minded
> > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > leaders one would have
> > to wonder what they see
> > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > but they just laugh at his
> > quirkiness because he's
> > operating on so many
> > high planes of consciousness
> > simultaneously. LOL!
> >
> > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > isn't even in the same ball
> > park with the current Dali
> > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > religion while Eckankar
> > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > But, EKists need to compare
> > the two leaders and how
> > they present themselves
> > and what they have to say.
> >
> > Will ECKists make the
> > comparison? No, of course
> > not! They won't even allow
> > the door to be opened a
> > crack because some light
> > might get in and show
> > them the Truth. They can't
> > handle the Truth and
> > would rather remain ignorant.
> > It's much easier, besides,
> > what would they replace
> > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > responsibility to think for
> > oneself and exercise free
> > will. And, it would make
> > life too lonely to lose all
> > of those EK friends.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
> > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
> > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > charlatan to me.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus wrote:
> >
> > The December 2012
> > Eckankar Mystic World
> > in the Ask the Master
> > section are two interesting
> > questions and answers.
> >
> > The first question has
> > to do with Stress and
> > how to overcome it.
> >
> > HK's answer is wishy-
> > washy at best. He says
> > that stress is "very
> > uncomfortable... Yet
> > stress is a good teacher."
> >
> > Klemp goes on to say
> > that people can increase
> > their tolerance to stress
> > by eating healthy, getting
> > enough sleep, and by
> > "Reducing our overuse
> > of electronic devices."
> >
> > In other words it seems
> > Klemp is saying, in a
> > roundabout way, to use
> > moderation. After all,
> > he's saying to reduce
> > "overuse."
> >
> > Then, again, how does
> > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > not use their computer
> > 8 hours a day?
> >
> > The next question involves
> > reincarnation. This guy's
> > wife gave birth to a baby
> > boy and two days later his
> > mother translated (died).
> > He indirectly asked if this
> > new baby was his mother.
> >
> > Instead of giving this EKist
> > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > When it comes to rebirth,
> > anything at all can happen...
> > Whichever Soul is now your
> > son, everything is in accord
> > with what is best for all around."
> >
> > Prometheus
>

Hi prometheus973,I agree what you
  said,they are some false master in public.recently one femala master,her name
is master ching hai, master ching hai claim herself is 8 billion plane
initiation level,do you believe it?in 1985 she become master and began taught
mediatation on light and sound,whom said  come from higher world into this lower
world ,her  also said come to this lower world many times,alway is a master for
help people.do you believe?
--- In EckankarSurvirvorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> I'm not so sure that humans
> will ever become like, God,
> our imagined or possible
> creator. And, if at all, certainly
> not in any lifetime soon.
>
> But, it could be that the
> universe(s) just happened
> and that the remnants of
> other life forms were spread
> to this planet, and others,
> via space rubble... from
> destroyed civilizations
> and planets. Or, was it an
> intentional seeding by an
> advanced race... which was,
> itself, seeded by another
> advanced race etc.
>
> Maybe the "spiritual"
> experiences we have
> are the result of
> interaction with the
> quantum mechanical
> field?
>
> Anyway, it seems to me
> that what really matters
> are relationships. It's our
> relationships with others,
> even strangers, that matter
> most. This is how we really
> learn and grow. Loving
> relationships are valuable.
>
> Klemp, and others like
> him, are: liars; posers;
> have arrested development;
> are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> and are even psychopathic.
> They are incapable of learning,
> or caring about others (are
> unloving) and attempt to
> impede social progress and
> justice. They use the rest of
> us for their own personal
> greed and selfish desires.
>
> Then, again, this strife and
> uncertainly (stress) that is
> created can make life interesting
> and a challenge, although,
> it can/will also be physically
> and emotionally painful.
>
> But, having a regular life
> without additional commitments
> and involvements can also
> offer rewarding experiences
> and insights. We are never
> all that alone. However, I'm
> not sure how peace of any
> sort (except in one's own mind)
> will ever happen in a world
> controlled by sociopaths.
>
> One must care about everyone
> and have caring relationships
> with people in order for humankind
> to advance and survive. To me,
> this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> I almost included animals, too,
> but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> include "caring" about them (all)
> too.
>
> How can one really "care" about
> the sociopaths and psychopaths
> except to keep them away from
> nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> people.
>
> When one thinks about it the
> definition of what's "normal"
> keeps changing. The extroverts
> seem to be more pathological
> than the introverts don't you
> agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> to force us introverts to become
> extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> loves company I suppose or is
> it that an army of glassy-eyed
> introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> is more intimidating.
>
> In any case the idea of a "God"
> to worship and viewed as being
> "involved" in our lives detracts
> from "us" being involved in our
> lives because of the differences
> we see in one another. This is
> why there are so many different
> religious dogmas of what's right
> and wrong.
>
> Therefore, the differences in the
> way in which "God" is worshipped,
> for me, shows that "God" does not
> exist. We don't want to be alone
> nor take responsibility for our own
> actions. Thus, we blame God or
> use God as our scape goat.
>
> There are major flaws with all
> of these religions and the so-called
> "source" of their scriptures. It's
> all hearsay and the only thing
> that, supposedly, gives them
> validation is that these various
> people in history/myth that the
> scribes wrote about are claimed
> to have said or done some nice,
> inspirational, brave, or insightful
> things a very long time ago. Age/
> time (being ancient) seems to
> have given them credibility, because
> it is believed and taught that
> only Divine Intercession could
> have been the source for their
> Divine Inspiration.
>
> But, IMO, there are many people,
> today, who are not even followers
> of these dogmas that are as, or
> more: honest; brave; insightful;
> inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> than the prophets, saints, and founders
> of these major and minor religions.
> Many of these people inspired
> others by never giving up in time
> of conflict because, sometimes,
> there weren't many other choices.
> Even those who did give up and
> had bad things befall them, still,
> maintained their faith and this
> fact turned them into "prophets"
> or saints. If this is the standard
> for religions there are an awful
> lot of believers and faithful, today,
> that just as deluded and desperate.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> iam999freedom"  wrote:
> Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> with unconditional love for the
> master and you get a submissive
> control pattern as your reward.
> Buyer beware!
>
> Prometheus, you wrote:
> "All of this, it seems, is simply
> an experiment to see if we
> are all capable of evolving
> into our "spiritual" potential.
> Are we to become more than
> merely a divine thought?
> Maybe there is something
> more to that piece of a mirror
> analogy."
>
> I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> the end result of the mirror analagy.
>
> I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
>
> I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly moving
> from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has more
> meaning than being in a pinball machine.
>
> Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
>
> Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> that it would ever be necessary.
>
> Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
>
> I AM
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello Non and All,
> > Thanks for the insightful
> > summary. I was exploring
> > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > charismatic Christian churches
> > and saw a reference to a
> > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> >
> > This person is mentioned
> > not by Jesus but by one of
> > his apostles in order to inspire
> > Faith.
> >
> > Even when God seems to
> > turn his back and: causes
> > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > lost; cities attacked and
> > overrun by your enemies;
> > people brutalized, tortured
> > and killed, one is to have
> > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > reward for keeping this
> > faith. God's ego needs
> > you to believe in him
> > regardless of what pain
> > he allows to befall you.
> >
> > One needs to project
> > a sense of hope in order
> > to better endure life, as
> > it is, no matter how bad.
> >
> > And, it's easier to face these
> > challenges when you believe
> > that God is on your side and
> > not that of your oppressor.
> >
> > However, does God really
> > take sides? It seems that God
> > is/was created in man's image.
> >
> > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy.
> >
> > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > has the belief that you (and your
> > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > deserved the punishments as
> > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > most religions see everyday
> > living and hardships as a test
> > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > to donate money to support
> > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > says and promises the same
> > or similar things in the imagined
> > hereafter.
> >
> > Plus, each religion has always
> > blamed the non-believers for
> > the sins that they suffer under
> > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > and Klemp is more like these
> > preachers than EKists could ever
> > admit.
> >
> > Well, got to go now....
> > I just had some thoughts
> > to share.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> "Non" wrote:
> So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in anything
> beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> answers to ask the master etc.
> >
> Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true Dahlia
> Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My Struggle
> by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> >
> They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very benign
> on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are actually
> drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure out
> it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> >
> > Non ;)
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello Janice,
> > Yes, one would think that
> > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > would, at least, attempt
> > to live up to his PR, but
> > that's not the case with
> > Klemp. Why put himself
> > out there by demonstrating
> > his powers? It's not like
> > he announced to the
> > whole world that he was....
> > oh wait, he did!
> >
> > That was a long time ago
> > and he never did make
> > any predictions as most
> > prophets do. Even Twit
> > made some predictions.
> > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > haven't noticed and don't
> > mine and that's why he
> > doesn't feel any pressure
> > to preform his responsibilities
> > as a real prophet.
> >
> > Instead, Harold is very
> > cautious of being too
> > direct and understood.
> > He'd rather have EKists
> > fill-in the blanks and
> > imagine what they want,
> > need and expect until
> > they go too far and have
> > to have a behaviour
> > adjustment by their RESA.
> > That's why Klemp usually
> > gives a very one dimensional
> > perspective when he tells
> > a story.
> >
> > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > why put too much
> > effort into it! And, he
> > figures that all he needs
> > to do is the KISS thing
> > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > will substitute Soul for
> > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> >
> > It's really quite amazing
> > how simple Klemp's
> > redundant message is.
> > If EKists would just compare
> > Klemp's simple minded
> > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > leaders one would have
> > to wonder what they see
> > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > but they just laugh at his
> > quirkiness because he's
> > operating on so many
> > high planes of consciousness
> > simultaneously. LOL!
> >
> > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > isn't even in the same ball
> > park with the current Dali
> > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > religion while Eckankar
> > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > But, EKists need to compare
> > the two leaders and how
> > they present themselves
> > and what they have to say.
> >
> > Will ECKists make the
> > comparison? No, of course
> > not! They won't even allow
> > the door to be opened a
> > crack because some light
> > might get in and show
> > them the Truth. They can't
> > handle the Truth and
> > would rather remain ignorant.
> > It's much easier, besides,
> > what would they replace
> > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > responsibility to think for
> > oneself and exercise free
> > will. And, it would make
> > life too lonely to lose all
> > of those EK friends.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man that
> > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he is
> > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > charlatan to me.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus wrote:
> >
> > The December 2012
> > Eckankar Mystic World
> > in the Ask the Master
> > section are two interesting
> > questions and answers.
> >
> > The first question has
> > to do with Stress and
> > how to overcome it.
> >
> > HK's answer is wishy-
> > washy at best. He says
> > that stress is "very
> > uncomfortable... Yet
> > stress is a good teacher."
> >
> > Klemp goes on to say
> > that people can increase
> > their tolerance to stress
> > by eating healthy, getting
> > enough sleep, and by
> > "Reducing our overuse
> > of electronic devices."
> >
> > In other words it seems
> > Klemp is saying, in a
> > roundabout way, to use
> > moderation. After all,
> > he's saying to reduce
> > "overuse."
> >
> > Then, again, how does
> > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > not use their computer
> > 8 hours a day?
> >
> > The next question involves
> > reincarnation. This guy's
> > wife gave birth to a baby
> > boy and two days later his
> > mother translated (died).
> > He indirectly asked if this
> > new baby was his mother.
> >
> > Instead of giving this EKist
> > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > When it comes to rebirth,
> > anything at all can happen...
> > Whichever Soul is now your
> > son, everything is in accord
> > with what is best for all around."
> >
> > Prometheus
>

Hello Tuza8,
Welcome to the site!
Thanks for the info
on, yet, another religious
scammer/fraud.

I'm assuming that your
questions are rhetorical.

I found some info on this
person and the following
video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I

Here's more info that that
I uncovered on Wikipedia:

[Note the info within the (*****)
It sounds a lot like Klemp's
Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]

Quan Yin Method

In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
which she is now associated.[10]


*****
Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]

Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
*****


Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the

"Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:

Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
Refrain from speaking what is not true.
Refrain from taking what is not offered.
Refrain from sexual misconduct.
Refrain from the use of intoxicants.

[edit]Quan Yin Method in China

Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]

The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
20 provinces and cities.[10]

In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
of "heretical texts."[10]

[edit]Criticism

[edit]Environmental violations
In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
to establish a park on the site.[33]

Yes, I read where she is
very popular in Taiwan
and that she has 20,000
followers world wide.

She's half Vietnamese
and Chinese and became
a disciple of Thakar Singh
and studied Surat Shabd
Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
Light and Sound), but
was, later, initiated by
a Buddhist monk.

All those who follow
her are asked to become
Vegetarians and initiation
is free of charge. It doesn't
appear that there is a
Membership Donation/Fee
like with Ecklankar, but
she does make a lot of
money by selling books,
videos, etc. She also owns
Vegetarian and Vegan
Restaurants (Loving Hut),
has jewelry outlets, and
designs her own clothing
line.

Her name, Ching Hai,
means "pure ocean."

Google the "Quan Yin
Method" to find out
more about her daily
meditation of the inner
L & S.

She's been described as a:
"tireless publicity seeker;
The Immaterial Girl... Part
Buddha, Part Madonna;
The Buddhist Martha Stewart
... merchandizing mystic
from Taiwan."

So, it seems that because
of her Buddhist connections
that she's associated with
the more familiar Buddhism,
however, she teaches the
less known (outside India)
Surat Shabd Yoga as does
ECKankar.

Funny, though, that her
religion/enterprise had
a later start than ECKankar
but is making more money
and bringing in more people.

Prometheus

"tuza8"  wrote:

Hi prometheu,
I agree what you said,
they are some false master
in public.

recently one femala master,
her name is master ching hai,
master ching hai claim herself
is 8 billion plane initiation level,

do you believe it?

in 1985 she become master
and began taught mediatation
on light and sound, whom said
come from higher world into
this lower world ,

her  also said come to this
lower world many times,
alway is a master for help
people.

do you believe?

prometheus_973"  wrote:
> >
> > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > I'm not so sure that humans
> > will ever become like, God,
> > our imagined or possible
> > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > not in any lifetime soon.
> >
> > But, it could be that the
> > universe(s) just happened
> > and that the remnants of
> > other life forms were spread
> > to this planet, and others,
> > via space rubble... from
> > destroyed civilizations
> > and planets. Or, was it an
> > intentional seeding by an
> > advanced race... which was,
> > itself, seeded by another
> > advanced race etc.
> >
> > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > experiences we have
> > are the result of
> > interaction with the
> > quantum mechanical
> > field?
> >
> > Anyway, it seems to me
> > that what really matters
> > are relationships. It's our
> > relationships with others,
> > even strangers, that matter
> > most. This is how we really
> > learn and grow. Loving
> > relationships are valuable.
> >
> > Klemp, and others like
> > him, are: liars; posers;
> > have arrested development;
> > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > and are even psychopathic.
> > They are incapable of learning,
> > or caring about others (are
> > unloving) and attempt to
> > impede social progress and
> > justice. They use the rest of
> > us for their own personal
> > greed and selfish desires.
> >
> > Then, again, this strife and
> > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > created can make life interesting
> > and a challenge, although,
> > it can/will also be physically
> > and emotionally painful.
> >
> > But, having a regular life
> > without additional commitments
> > and involvements can also
> > offer rewarding experiences
> > and insights. We are never
> > all that alone. However, I'm
> > not sure how peace of any
> > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > will ever happen in a world
> > controlled by sociopaths.
> >
> > One must care about everyone
> > and have caring relationships
> > with people in order for humankind
> > to advance and survive. To me,
> > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > I almost included animals, too,
> > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > include "caring" about them (all)
> > too.
> >
> > How can one really "care" about
> > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > except to keep them away from
> > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > people.
> >
> > When one thinks about it the
> > definition of what's "normal"
> > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > seem to be more pathological
> > than the introverts don't you
> > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > to force us introverts to become
> > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > loves company I suppose or is
> > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > is more intimidating.
> >
> > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > to worship and viewed as being
> > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > from "us" being involved in our
> > lives because of the differences
> > we see in one another. This is
> > why there are so many different
> > religious dogmas of what's right
> > and wrong.
> >
> > Therefore, the differences in the
> > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > nor take responsibility for our own
> > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > use God as our scape goat.
> >
> > There are major flaws with all
> > of these religions and the so-called
> > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > all hearsay and the only thing
> > that, supposedly, gives them
> > validation is that these various
> > people in history/myth that the
> > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > to have said or done some nice,
> > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > time (being ancient) seems to
> > have given them credibility, because
> > it is believed and taught that
> > only Divine Intercession could
> > have been the source for their
> > Divine Inspiration.
> >
> > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > today, who are not even followers
> > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > of these major and minor religions.
> > Many of these people inspired
> > others by never giving up in time
> > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > there weren't many other choices.
> > Even those who did give up and
> > had bad things befall them, still,
> > maintained their faith and this
> > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > or saints. If this is the standard
> > for religions there are an awful
> > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > that just as deluded and desperate.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom"  wrote:
> > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > with unconditional love for the
> > master and you get a submissive
> > control pattern as your reward.
> > Buyer beware!
> >
> > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy."
> >
> > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> >
> > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> >
> > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> >
> > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> >
> > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > that it would ever be necessary.
> >
> > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Non and All,
> > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > summary. I was exploring
> > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > and saw a reference to a
> > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > >
> > > This person is mentioned
> > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > Faith.
> > >
> > > Even when God seems to
> > > turn his back and: causes
> > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > and killed, one is to have
> > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > reward for keeping this
> > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > you to believe in him
> > > regardless of what pain
> > > he allows to befall you.
> > >
> > > One needs to project
> > > a sense of hope in order
> > > to better endure life, as
> > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > >
> > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > challenges when you believe
> > > that God is on your side and
> > > not that of your oppressor.
> > >
> > > However, does God really
> > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > is/was created in man's image.
> > >
> > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy.
> > >
> > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > deserved the punishments as
> > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > most religions see everyday
> > > living and hardships as a test
> > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > to donate money to support
> > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > says and promises the same
> > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > hereafter.
> > >
> > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > admit.
> > >
> > > Well, got to go now....
> > > I just had some thoughts
> > > to share.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > "Non" wrote:
> > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > answers to ask the master etc.
> > >
> > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > >
> > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > >
> > > Non ;)
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Janice,
> > > Yes, one would think that
> > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > would, at least, attempt
> > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > that's not the case with
> > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > out there by demonstrating
> > > his powers? It's not like
> > > he announced to the
> > > whole world that he was....
> > > oh wait, he did!
> > >
> > > That was a long time ago
> > > and he never did make
> > > any predictions as most
> > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > made some predictions.
> > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > mine and that's why he
> > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > as a real prophet.
> > >
> > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > cautious of being too
> > > direct and understood.
> > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > imagine what they want,
> > > need and expect until
> > > they go too far and have
> > > to have a behaviour
> > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > perspective when he tells
> > > a story.
> > >
> > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > why put too much
> > > effort into it! And, he
> > > figures that all he needs
> > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > will substitute Soul for
> > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > >
> > > It's really quite amazing
> > > how simple Klemp's
> > > redundant message is.
> > > If EKists would just compare
> > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > leaders one would have
> > > to wonder what they see
> > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > but they just laugh at his
> > > quirkiness because he's
> > > operating on so many
> > > high planes of consciousness
> > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > >
> > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > park with the current Dali
> > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > religion while Eckankar
> > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > the two leaders and how
> > > they present themselves
> > > and what they have to say.
> > >
> > > Will ECKists make the
> > > comparison? No, of course
> > > not! They won't even allow
> > > the door to be opened a
> > > crack because some light
> > > might get in and show
> > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > handle the Truth and
> > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > what would they replace
> > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > responsibility to think for
> > > oneself and exercise free
> > > will. And, it would make
> > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > of those EK friends.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
is
> > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > charlatan to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people can increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
naturally more happy.

If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

I AM.......HAPPY  LOL

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"  wrote:
>
> Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
>
> Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
>
> I AM
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it
when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people
there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people
from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came
together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to
make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind
of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We
hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when
people are hurt, there are always others
> >  who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of
what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned. 
After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> >  true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide
from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit
that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but
can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will
hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will
mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do
anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
other leaders of
> >  eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
> >
> > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973  wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: prometheus_973
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > I'm not so sure that humans
> > will ever become like, God,
> > our imagined or possible
> > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > not in any lifetime soon.
> >
> > But, it could be that the
> > universe(s) just happened
> > and that the remnants of
> > other life forms were spread
> > to this planet, and others,
> > via space rubble... from
> > destroyed civilizations
> > and planets. Or, was it an
> > intentional seeding by an
> > advanced race... which was,
> > itself, seeded by another
> > advanced race etc.
> >
> > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > experiences we have
> > are the result of
> > interaction with the
> > quantum mechanical
> > field?
> >
> > Anyway, it seems to me
> > that what really matters
> > are relationships. It's our
> > relationships with others,
> > even strangers, that matter
> > most. This is how we really
> > learn and grow. Loving
> > relationships are valuable.
> >
> > Klemp, and others like
> > him, are: liars; posers;
> > have arrested development;
> > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > and are even psychopathic.
> > They are incapable of learning,
> > or caring about others (are
> > unloving) and attempt to
> > impede social progress and
> > justice. They use the rest of
> > us for their own personal
> > greed and selfish desires.
> >
> > Then, again, this strife and
> > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > created can make life interesting
> > and a challenge, although,
> > it can/will also be physically
> > and emotionally painful.
> >
> > But, having a regular life
> > without additional commitments
> > and involvements can also
> > offer rewarding experiences
> > and insights. We are never
> > all that alone. However, I'm
> > not sure how peace of any
> > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > will ever happen in a world
> > controlled by sociopaths.
> >
> > One must care about everyone
> > and have caring relationships
> > with people in order for humankind
> > to advance and survive. To me,
> > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > I almost included animals, too,
> > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > include "caring" about them (all)
> > too.
> >
> > How can one really "care" about
> > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > except to keep them away from
> > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > people.
> >
> > When one thinks about it the
> > definition of what's "normal"
> > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > seem to be more pathological
> > than the introverts don't you
> > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > to force us introverts to become
> > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > loves company I suppose or is
> > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > is more intimidating.
> >
> > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > to worship and viewed as being
> > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > from "us" being involved in our
> > lives because of the differences
> > we see in one another. This is
> > why there are so many different
> > religious dogmas of what's right
> > and wrong.
> >
> > Therefore, the differences in the
> > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > nor take responsibility for our own
> > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > use God as our scape goat.
> >
> > There are major flaws with all
> > of these religions and the so-called
> > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > all hearsay and the only thing
> > that, supposedly, gives them
> > validation is that these various
> > people in history/myth that the
> > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > to have said or done some nice,
> > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > time (being ancient) seems to
> > have given them credibility, because
> > it is believed and taught that
> > only Divine Intercession could
> > have been the source for their
> > Divine Inspiration.
> >
> > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > today, who are not even followers
> > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > of these major and minor religions.
> > Many of these people inspired
> > others by never giving up in time
> > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > there weren't many other choices.
> > Even those who did give up and
> > had bad things befall them, still,
> > maintained their faith and this
> > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > or saints. If this is the standard
> > for religions there are an awful
> > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > that just as deluded and desperate.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > with unconditional love for the
> > master and you get a submissive
> > control pattern as your reward.
> > Buyer beware!
> >
> > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy."
> >
> > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> >
> > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> >
> > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> >
> > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> >
> > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > that it would ever be necessary.
> >
> > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Non and All,
> > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > summary. I was exploring
> > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > and saw a reference to a
> > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > >
> > > This person is mentioned
> > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > Faith.
> > >
> > > Even when God seems to
> > > turn his back and: causes
> > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > and killed, one is to have
> > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > reward for keeping this
> > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > you to believe in him
> > > regardless of what pain
> > > he allows to befall you.
> > >
> > > One needs to project
> > > a sense of hope in order
> > > to better endure life, as
> > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > >
> > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > challenges when you believe
> > > that God is on your side and
> > > not that of your oppressor.
> > >
> > > However, does God really
> > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > is/was created in man's image.
> > >
> > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy.
> > >
> > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > deserved the punishments as
> > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > most religions see everyday
> > > living and hardships as a test
> > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > to donate money to support
> > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > says and promises the same
> > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > hereafter.
> > >
> > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > admit.
> > >
> > > Well, got to go now....
> > > I just had some thoughts
> > > to share.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > "Non" wrote:
> > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > answers to ask the master etc.
> > >
> > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > >
> > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > >
> > > Non ;)
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Janice,
> > > Yes, one would think that
> > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > would, at least, attempt
> > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > that's not the case with
> > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > out there by demonstrating
> > > his powers? It's not like
> > > he announced to the
> > > whole world that he was....
> > > oh wait, he did!
> > >
> > > That was a long time ago
> > > and he never did make
> > > any predictions as most
> > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > made some predictions.
> > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > mine and that's why he
> > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > as a real prophet.
> > >
> > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > cautious of being too
> > > direct and understood.
> > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > imagine what they want,
> > > need and expect until
> > > they go too far and have
> > > to have a behaviour
> > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > perspective when he tells
> > > a story.
> > >
> > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > why put too much
> > > effort into it! And, he
> > > figures that all he needs
> > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > will substitute Soul for
> > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > >
> > > It's really quite amazing
> > > how simple Klemp's
> > > redundant message is.
> > > If EKists would just compare
> > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > leaders one would have
> > > to wonder what they see
> > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > but they just laugh at his
> > > quirkiness because he's
> > > operating on so many
> > > high planes of consciousness
> > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > >
> > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > park with the current Dali
> > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > religion while Eckankar
> > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > the two leaders and how
> > > they present themselves
> > > and what they have to say.
> > >
> > > Will ECKists make the
> > > comparison? No, of course
> > > not! They won't even allow
> > > the door to be opened a
> > > crack because some light
> > > might get in and show
> > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > handle the Truth and
> > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > what would they replace
> > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > responsibility to think for
> > > oneself and exercise free
> > > will. And, it would make
> > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > of those EK friends.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
is
> > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > charlatan to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people can increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

Hi,prometheus and all,Actually, I am former disciple of master ching hai,I dont
think she is fake master,but regarding her level ,she said
she is 8 trillion initiate right now ,I dont believe. ,because from 1986 untill
now  just 27 years ,how can her achieve such level?is it possible once achieve
that level in a short time?27 year?you are a master,so ,you know the answer. is
it possible?pls tell me.
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Tuza8,
> Welcome to the site!
> Thanks for the info
> on, yet, another religious
> scammer/fraud.
>
> I'm assuming that your
> questions are rhetorical.
>
> I found some info on this
> person and the following
> video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
>
> Here's more info that that
> I uncovered on Wikipedia:
>
> [Note the info within the (*****)
> It sounds a lot like Klemp's
> Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
>
> Quan Yin Method
>
> In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
which she is now associated.[10]
>
>
> *****
> Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
>
> Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
> *****
>
>
> Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
>
> "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
>
> Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
> Refrain from speaking what is not true.
> Refrain from taking what is not offered.
> Refrain from sexual misconduct.
> Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
>
> [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
>
> Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
>
> The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
20 provinces and cities.[10]
>
> In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
of "heretical texts."[10]
>
> [edit]Criticism
>
> [edit]Environmental violations
> In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
to establish a park on the site.[33]
>
> Yes, I read where she is
> very popular in Taiwan
> and that she has 20,000
> followers world wide.
>
> She's half Vietnamese
> and Chinese and became
> a disciple of Thakar Singh
> and studied Surat Shabd
> Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
> Light and Sound), but
> was, later, initiated by
> a Buddhist monk.
>
> All those who follow
> her are asked to become
> Vegetarians and initiation
> is free of charge. It doesn't
> appear that there is a
> Membership Donation/Fee
> like with Ecklankar, but
> she does make a lot of
> money by selling books,
> videos, etc. She also owns
> Vegetarian and Vegan
> Restaurants (Loving Hut),
> has jewelry outlets, and
> designs her own clothing
> line.
>
> Her name, Ching Hai,
> means "pure ocean."
>
> Google the "Quan Yin
> Method" to find out
> more about her daily
> meditation of the inner
> L & S.
>
> She's been described as a:
> "tireless publicity seeker;
> The Immaterial Girl... Part
> Buddha, Part Madonna;
> The Buddhist Martha Stewart
> ... merchandizing mystic
> from Taiwan."
>
> So, it seems that because
> of her Buddhist connections
> that she's associated with
> the more familiar Buddhism,
> however, she teaches the
> less known (outside India)
> Surat Shabd Yoga as does
> ECKankar.
>
> Funny, though, that her
> religion/enterprise had
> a later start than ECKankar
> but is making more money
> and bringing in more people.
>
> Prometheus
>
> "tuza8"  wrote:
>
> Hi prometheu,
> I agree what you said,
> they are some false master
> in public.
>
> recently one femala master,
> her name is master ching hai,
> master ching hai claim herself
> is 8 billion plane initiation level,
>
> do you believe it?
>
> in 1985 she become master
> and began taught mediatation
> on light and sound, whom said
> come from higher world into
> this lower world ,
>
> her  also said come to this
> lower world many times,
> alway is a master for help
> people.
>
> do you believe?
>
> prometheus_973"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > will ever become like, God,
> > > our imagined or possible
> > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > >
> > > But, it could be that the
> > > universe(s) just happened
> > > and that the remnants of
> > > other life forms were spread
> > > to this planet, and others,
> > > via space rubble... from
> > > destroyed civilizations
> > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > intentional seeding by an
> > > advanced race... which was,
> > > itself, seeded by another
> > > advanced race etc.
> > >
> > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > experiences we have
> > > are the result of
> > > interaction with the
> > > quantum mechanical
> > > field?
> > >
> > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > that what really matters
> > > are relationships. It's our
> > > relationships with others,
> > > even strangers, that matter
> > > most. This is how we really
> > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > relationships are valuable.
> > >
> > > Klemp, and others like
> > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > have arrested development;
> > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > or caring about others (are
> > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > impede social progress and
> > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > us for their own personal
> > > greed and selfish desires.
> > >
> > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > created can make life interesting
> > > and a challenge, although,
> > > it can/will also be physically
> > > and emotionally painful.
> > >
> > > But, having a regular life
> > > without additional commitments
> > > and involvements can also
> > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > and insights. We are never
> > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > not sure how peace of any
> > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > will ever happen in a world
> > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > >
> > > One must care about everyone
> > > and have caring relationships
> > > with people in order for humankind
> > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > too.
> > >
> > > How can one really "care" about
> > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > except to keep them away from
> > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > people.
> > >
> > > When one thinks about it the
> > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > seem to be more pathological
> > > than the introverts don't you
> > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > to force us introverts to become
> > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > is more intimidating.
> > >
> > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > lives because of the differences
> > > we see in one another. This is
> > > why there are so many different
> > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > and wrong.
> > >
> > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > use God as our scape goat.
> > >
> > > There are major flaws with all
> > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > validation is that these various
> > > people in history/myth that the
> > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > have given them credibility, because
> > > it is believed and taught that
> > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > have been the source for their
> > > Divine Inspiration.
> > >
> > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > today, who are not even followers
> > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > Many of these people inspired
> > > others by never giving up in time
> > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > Even those who did give up and
> > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > maintained their faith and this
> > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > for religions there are an awful
> > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > iam999freedom"  wrote:
> > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > with unconditional love for the
> > > master and you get a submissive
> > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > Buyer beware!
> > >
> > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy."
> > >
> > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> > >
> > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> > >
> > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed
and
> > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> > >
> > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the
experiment
> > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> > >
> > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > > that it would ever be necessary.
> > >
> > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> > >
> > > I AM
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Non and All,
> > > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > > summary. I was exploring
> > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > > and saw a reference to a
> > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > > >
> > > > This person is mentioned
> > > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > > Faith.
> > > >
> > > > Even when God seems to
> > > > turn his back and: causes
> > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > > and killed, one is to have
> > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > > reward for keeping this
> > > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > > you to believe in him
> > > > regardless of what pain
> > > > he allows to befall you.
> > > >
> > > > One needs to project
> > > > a sense of hope in order
> > > > to better endure life, as
> > > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > > >
> > > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > > challenges when you believe
> > > > that God is on your side and
> > > > not that of your oppressor.
> > > >
> > > > However, does God really
> > > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > > is/was created in man's image.
> > > >
> > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > > an experiment to see if we
> > > > are all capable of evolving
> > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > > Are we to become more than
> > > > merely a divine thought?
> > > > Maybe there is something
> > > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > > analogy.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > > deserved the punishments as
> > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > > most religions see everyday
> > > > living and hardships as a test
> > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > > to donate money to support
> > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > > says and promises the same
> > > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > > hereafter.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > > admit.
> > > >
> > > > Well, got to go now....
> > > > I just had some thoughts
> > > > to share.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > "Non" wrote:
> > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > > answers to ask the master etc.
> > > >
> > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia
Lama
> > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to
question
> > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > > >
> > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way
to
> > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > > >
> > > > Non ;)
> > > >
> > > > prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Janice,
> > > > Yes, one would think that
> > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > > would, at least, attempt
> > > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > > that's not the case with
> > > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > > out there by demonstrating
> > > > his powers? It's not like
> > > > he announced to the
> > > > whole world that he was....
> > > > oh wait, he did!
> > > >
> > > > That was a long time ago
> > > > and he never did make
> > > > any predictions as most
> > > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > > made some predictions.
> > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > > mine and that's why he
> > > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > > as a real prophet.
> > > >
> > > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > > cautious of being too
> > > > direct and understood.
> > > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > > imagine what they want,
> > > > need and expect until
> > > > they go too far and have
> > > > to have a behaviour
> > > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > > perspective when he tells
> > > > a story.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > > why put too much
> > > > effort into it! And, he
> > > > figures that all he needs
> > > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > > will substitute Soul for
> > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > > >
> > > > It's really quite amazing
> > > > how simple Klemp's
> > > > redundant message is.
> > > > If EKists would just compare
> > > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > > leaders one would have
> > > > to wonder what they see
> > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > > but they just laugh at his
> > > > quirkiness because he's
> > > > operating on so many
> > > > high planes of consciousness
> > > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > > >
> > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > > park with the current Dali
> > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > > religion while Eckankar
> > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > > the two leaders and how
> > > > they present themselves
> > > > and what they have to say.
> > > >
> > > > Will ECKists make the
> > > > comparison? No, of course
> > > > not! They won't even allow
> > > > the door to be opened a
> > > > crack because some light
> > > > might get in and show
> > > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > > handle the Truth and
> > > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > > what would they replace
> > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > > responsibility to think for
> > > > oneself and exercise free
> > > > will. And, it would make
> > > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > > of those EK friends.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy
to say
> > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess
he is
> > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in
and ask
> > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > > charlatan to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The December 2012
> > > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > > in the Ask the Master
> > > > section are two interesting
> > > > questions and answers.
> > > >
> > > > The first question has
> > > > to do with Stress and
> > > > how to overcome it.
> > > >
> > > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > > washy at best. He says
> > > > that stress is "very
> > > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > > stress is a good teacher."
> > > >
> > > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > > that people can increase
> > > > their tolerance to stress
> > > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > > enough sleep, and by
> > > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > > of electronic devices."
> > > >
> > > > In other words it seems
> > > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > > roundabout way, to use
> > > > moderation. After all,
> > > > he's saying to reduce
> > > > "overuse."
> > > >
> > > > Then, again, how does
> > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > > not use their computer
> > > > 8 hours a day?
> > > >
> > > > The next question involves
> > > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > > boy and two days later his
> > > > mother translated (died).
> > > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > > new baby was his mother.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > > anything at all can happen...
> > > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > > son, everything is in accord
> > > > with what is best for all around."
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > >
> >
>

Hello I AM, Janice and All,
I read something where a
teacher asked a child what
she wanted to be when she
grew up and she said "Happy!"

Of course, that was the wrong
answer. Happiness is not taught
in school. Yet, happiness is
the end result of that which
is sought by those who are
taught how to think and work
for a living.

Personally, I'd rather the
various states of happiness
including contentment.

And yet the EK teachings
are completely Mental
Plane via:

The Books, like the Shariyats;
CDs; DVDs; Internet Videos;
Seminar Talks; the RESA
Hierarchy; Guidelines; Zoas;
Satsang Society and ESC
Board business meetings;
Workshop and Seminar
planning etc., to name
just a few of the Mental
Plane activities and the
basis for Eckankar's
existence.

Let's not forget those Mystic
Worlds, H.I. Letters, IROs,
EWS discussions, Membership
Donations. These realities
are not seen by ECKists
because they are too willing
to accept the propaganda
than think for themselves
and question authority.

I read a quote by Frank Zappa
"The difference between a
religion and a cult is how
much property they own."
It was something like that.
Look at the Mormon Church!

Thus, IMO, Eckankar will
always remain a cult. LOL!

Prometheus

iam freedom  wrote:
I still remember years ago in the Mystic World HK wrote that being happy should
not be a goal of an Eckist. He compared happiness to a cow in a herd of cattle.
In another part of the teachings it states of course that Soul is a happy
entity, that when the individual becomes aware of themself as Soul they are
naturally more happy.

If you pointed out this contradiction to an Eckist they would say something
like, "stop being so mental, the teaching is not a mental path." Many Eckists
are neither happy nor kind. They turn on themselves with power plays to enhance
their egos. They are brainwashed that an higher initiation will lead them to
solve their unhappiness. On and on the hypocrisy and delusion goes.

I AM.......HAPPY LOL

"iam999freedom" wrote:
>
> Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
>
> Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
>
> I AM
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it
when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where people
there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were people
from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town came
together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does appear to
make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there is a kind
of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most about.  We
hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the good.  But when
people are hurt, there are always others
> > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part of
what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.Â
After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide
from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit
that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break but
can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my heart will
hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving hearts will
mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even begun the
journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar doesn't do
anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the lem and the
other leaders of
> > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight.Â
> >
prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > I'm not so sure that humans
> > will ever become like, God,
> > our imagined or possible
> > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > not in any lifetime soon.
> >
> > But, it could be that the
> > universe(s) just happened
> > and that the remnants of
> > other life forms were spread
> > to this planet, and others,
> > via space rubble... from
> > destroyed civilizations
> > and planets. Or, was it an
> > intentional seeding by an
> > advanced race... which was,
> > itself, seeded by another
> > advanced race etc.
> >
> > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > experiences we have
> > are the result of
> > interaction with the
> > quantum mechanical
> > field?
> >
> > Anyway, it seems to me
> > that what really matters
> > are relationships. It's our
> > relationships with others,
> > even strangers, that matter
> > most. This is how we really
> > learn and grow. Loving
> > relationships are valuable.
> >
> > Klemp, and others like
> > him, are: liars; posers;
> > have arrested development;
> > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > and are even psychopathic.
> > They are incapable of learning,
> > or caring about others (are
> > unloving) and attempt to
> > impede social progress and
> > justice. They use the rest of
> > us for their own personal
> > greed and selfish desires.
> >
> > Then, again, this strife and
> > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > created can make life interesting
> > and a challenge, although,
> > it can/will also be physically
> > and emotionally painful.
> >
> > But, having a regular life
> > without additional commitments
> > and involvements can also
> > offer rewarding experiences
> > and insights. We are never
> > all that alone. However, I'm
> > not sure how peace of any
> > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > will ever happen in a world
> > controlled by sociopaths.
> >
> > One must care about everyone
> > and have caring relationships
> > with people in order for humankind
> > to advance and survive. To me,
> > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > I almost included animals, too,
> > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > include "caring" about them (all)
> > too.
> >
> > How can one really "care" about
> > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > except to keep them away from
> > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > people.
> >
> > When one thinks about it the
> > definition of what's "normal"
> > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > seem to be more pathological
> > than the introverts don't you
> > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > to force us introverts to become
> > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > loves company I suppose or is
> > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > is more intimidating.
> >
> > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > to worship and viewed as being
> > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > from "us" being involved in our
> > lives because of the differences
> > we see in one another. This is
> > why there are so many different
> > religious dogmas of what's right
> > and wrong.
> >
> > Therefore, the differences in the
> > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > nor take responsibility for our own
> > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > use God as our scape goat.
> >
> > There are major flaws with all
> > of these religions and the so-called
> > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > all hearsay and the only thing
> > that, supposedly, gives them
> > validation is that these various
> > people in history/myth that the
> > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > to have said or done some nice,
> > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > time (being ancient) seems to
> > have given them credibility, because
> > it is believed and taught that
> > only Divine Intercession could
> > have been the source for their
> > Divine Inspiration.
> >
> > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > today, who are not even followers
> > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > of these major and minor religions.
> > Many of these people inspired
> > others by never giving up in time
> > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > there weren't many other choices.
> > Even those who did give up and
> > had bad things befall them, still,
> > maintained their faith and this
> > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > or saints. If this is the standard
> > for religions there are an awful
> > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > that just as deluded and desperate.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > with unconditional love for the
> > master and you get a submissive
> > control pattern as your reward.
> > Buyer beware!
> >
> > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy."
> >
> > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> >
> > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> >
> > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> >
> > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> >
> > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > that it would ever be necessary.
> >
> > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Non and All,
> > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > summary. I was exploring
> > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > and saw a reference to a
> > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > >
> > > This person is mentioned
> > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > Faith.
> > >
> > > Even when God seems to
> > > turn his back and: causes
> > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > and killed, one is to have
> > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > reward for keeping this
> > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > you to believe in him
> > > regardless of what pain
> > > he allows to befall you.
> > >
> > > One needs to project
> > > a sense of hope in order
> > > to better endure life, as
> > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > >
> > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > challenges when you believe
> > > that God is on your side and
> > > not that of your oppressor.
> > >
> > > However, does God really
> > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > is/was created in man's image.
> > >
> > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy.
> > >
> > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > deserved the punishments as
> > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > most religions see everyday
> > > living and hardships as a test
> > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > to donate money to support
> > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > says and promises the same
> > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > hereafter.
> > >
> > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > admit.
> > >
> > > Well, got to go now....
> > > I just had some thoughts
> > > to share.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > "Non" wrote:
> > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > answers to ask the master etc.
> > >
> > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > >
> > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > >
> > > Non ;)
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Janice,
> > > Yes, one would think that
> > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > would, at least, attempt
> > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > that's not the case with
> > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > out there by demonstrating
> > > his powers? It's not like
> > > he announced to the
> > > whole world that he was....
> > > oh wait, he did!
> > >
> > > That was a long time ago
> > > and he never did make
> > > any predictions as most
> > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > made some predictions.
> > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > mine and that's why he
> > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > as a real prophet.
> > >
> > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > cautious of being too
> > > direct and understood.
> > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > imagine what they want,
> > > need and expect until
> > > they go too far and have
> > > to have a behaviour
> > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > perspective when he tells
> > > a story.
> > >
> > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > why put too much
> > > effort into it! And, he
> > > figures that all he needs
> > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > will substitute Soul for
> > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > >
> > > It's really quite amazing
> > > how simple Klemp's
> > > redundant message is.
> > > If EKists would just compare
> > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > leaders one would have
> > > to wonder what they see
> > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > but they just laugh at his
> > > quirkiness because he's
> > > operating on so many
> > > high planes of consciousness
> > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > >
> > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > park with the current Dali
> > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > religion while Eckankar
> > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > the two leaders and how
> > > they present themselves
> > > and what they have to say.
> > >
> > > Will ECKists make the
> > > comparison? No, of course
> > > not! They won't even allow
> > > the door to be opened a
> > > crack because some light
> > > might get in and show
> > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > handle the Truth and
> > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > what would they replace
> > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > responsibility to think for
> > > oneself and exercise free
> > > will. And, it would make
> > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > of those EK friends.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
is
> > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > charlatan to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people can increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus

Hello Tusa8,
Let me try to address
your questions and
concerns.

"tuza8"  wrote:
"Hi, prometheus and all,

Actually, I am former disciple
of master ching hai,

I dont think she is fake master,"

***
ME: Yes, she is a FAKE!
You are more of a Master
than she is! Why? Because
you have more integrity,
more honesty, more
detachment, and fewer
desires than Ching Hai.

A true Master cannot be
a greedy Capitalist who
uses excuses and a slight
of hand (magic) to turn
appearances into illusion.
She is not humble nor is
she enlightened, especially,
in this Field of Action.
***

"but regarding her level,
she said she is 8 trillion
initiate right now,"

***
ME: A True Master does
not brag about being a
Master nor disclose that
they are a Master nor
do they disclose their
"initiations."
***

"I dont believe. ,
because from 1986 untill
now just 27 years,

how can her achieve such
level?

is it possible once achieve
that level in a short time?
27 year?"

***
ME: These outrageous claims
by Ching Hai are simply more
proof that she is a fraud. Those
who would believe such lies
have been tested and have
Passed her brainwashing test.

Many cult leaders, via increments,
will test the waters. They will
make a subtle, but illogical,
or exaggerated claim or statement
and see what happens. If it
goes unnoticed/unquestioned
or unchallenged and is accepted,
then, more and more lies and
outrageous claims and orders
can be made or handed out
until the only people left are
those glassy-eyed brainwashed
and loyal fanatics who have
stopped thinking for themselves.
***

"you are a master, so,
you know the answer.

is it possible?
pls tell me."

***
ME: I AM No Master.
Even if you were to
dream of me I would
not be a Master. You
are your own Master!
Dream of yourself as
a Master. This, in Truth,
is your secret identity.

Anyway, I've told you.

If you have ears to hear
you will hear and, I hope,
will understand my words
and advice.

I'm not perfect... but
neither is God. LOL!

Prometheus



prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Tuza8,
> Welcome to the site!
> Thanks for the info
> on, yet, another religious
> scammer/fraud.
>
> I'm assuming that your
> questions are rhetorical.
>
> I found some info on this
> person and the following
> video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--x-647HW8I
>
> Here's more info that that
> I uncovered on Wikipedia:
>
> [Note the info within the (*****)
> It sounds a lot like Klemp's
> Eckankar/Mahanta dogma]
>
> Quan Yin Method
>
> In 1986, Ching Hai founded the 'Immeasurable Light Meditation Center' and the
'Way of Sound Contemplation' (Quan Yin Method) in Miaoli, Taiwan.[10] Quan Yin
Method is markedly similar to the much older Surat Shabd Yoga from the Sant Mat
tradition which also teaches meditation on light and sound.[25] In 1988 she
severed any connection with Buddhism and developed the flamboyant style with
which she is now associated.[10]
>
>
> *****
> Ching Hai has said, "It's not that I invented the Quan Yin Method; I just know
it. This method has existed since the beginning of time, when the universe was
first formed. And it will always exist. It is not a method; it is like the way
of the universe, a universal law that we must follow if we want to get back to
the Origin, back to our true Self, back to the Kingdom of God or our Buddha
nature."[26] In her book The Key of Immediate Enlightenment, it is said that
those who recite her name would become elevated.[27]
>
> Ching Hai initiates spiritual aspirants into the Quan Yin Method, which is
purported to exist in various religions under different names, as the "best,
easiest, and quickest" way to get enlightenment.[28][29] The method involves
meditation on the "inner light and the inner sound of God", or the Shabd that
she claims is also referred to in the Bible and said to be acknowledged
repeatedly in the literature of all the world's major spiritual traditions.
> *****
>
>
> Ching Hai accepts people from all backgrounds and religious affiliations for
initiation. One does not have to change one's present religion or system of
beliefs.[7] Neophytes to the Ching Hai way may cease eating animal products
gradually (for ten days per month) in what is termed the
>
> "Convenient Method" and do half an hour of meditation a day.[7] The Quan Yin
Method requires two and a half hours of meditation per day and adherence to five
precepts[30] borrowed from the Five Precepts of Buddhism:
>
> Refrain from taking the life of sentient beings.
> Refrain from speaking what is not true.
> Refrain from taking what is not offered.
> Refrain from sexual misconduct.
> Refrain from the use of intoxicants.
>
> [edit]Quan Yin Method in China
>
> Quan Yin Method was introduced on the Chinese mainland in 1992, where it is
commonly known as "Guanyin Famen" (Famen is Chinese for method). It spread
without notice for several years, but in July 1996, two years before the onset
of a campaign to stamp out "heretical sects," authorities in Sichuan found a
list of several thousand practitioners of the method in seven provinces; it
included many Chinese Communist Party members, and some high-ranking cadres.[10]
>
> The authorities asserted that the organization's beliefs and activities were
fundamentally "anticommunist", and it was labelled a "reactionary religious
organization."[10] In 1995, it was also labelled a "cult organization".[31] At
the time that the ban against "heterodox religions" was put into law in July
1999, Guanyin Famen / Quan Yin Method claimed an estimated 500,000 followers in
20 provinces and cities.[10]
>
> In January 2002 the manager of the Wuhan Zhongzhi Electric Testing Equipment
Company was accused by the Chinese authorities of using the business as a cover
to "support heresies" associated with Guanyin Famen.[10] The enterprise
allegedly supported 30 Guanyin practitioners who "masqueraded as employees and
business associates." The manager was charged with using the company's offices
and buildings as "retreat sites," organizing "initiations" and "screenings" to
recruit members, and illegally printing and distributing more than 6,000 copies
of "heretical texts."[10]
>
> [edit]Criticism
>
> [edit]Environmental violations
> In 2004, an artificial island and 330-foot (100 m) long boardwalk created in
Biscayne National Park cost $1 million USD to remove after being illegally
constructed by Ching Hai, known locally as a wealthy property owner under the
pseudonym Celestia De Lamour.[32] National Park workers replanted between 400
and 500 mangrove trees in the area once covered by the illegal boardwalk. The
private property owned by Ching Hai adjacent to the national park was seized by
police and later sold at auction to the village of Palmetto Bay, which planned
to establish a park on the site.[33]
>
> Yes, I read where she is
> very popular in Taiwan
> and that she has 20,000
> followers world wide.
>
> She's half Vietnamese
> and Chinese and became
> a disciple of Thakar Singh
> and studied Surat Shabd
> Yoga (Sant Mat - Inner
> Light and Sound), but
> was, later, initiated by
> a Buddhist monk.
>
> All those who follow
> her are asked to become
> Vegetarians and initiation
> is free of charge. It doesn't
> appear that there is a
> Membership Donation/Fee
> like with Ecklankar, but
> she does make a lot of
> money by selling books,
> videos, etc. She also owns
> Vegetarian and Vegan
> Restaurants (Loving Hut),
> has jewelry outlets, and
> designs her own clothing
> line.
>
> Her name, Ching Hai,
> means "pure ocean."
>
> Google the "Quan Yin
> Method" to find out
> more about her daily
> meditation of the inner
> L & S.
>
> She's been described as a:
> "tireless publicity seeker;
> The Immaterial Girl... Part
> Buddha, Part Madonna;
> The Buddhist Martha Stewart
> ... merchandizing mystic
> from Taiwan."
>
> So, it seems that because
> of her Buddhist connections
> that she's associated with
> the more familiar Buddhism,
> however, she teaches the
> less known (outside India)
> Surat Shabd Yoga as does
> ECKankar.
>
> Funny, though, that her
> religion/enterprise had
> a later start than ECKankar
> but is making more money
> and bringing in more people.
>
> Prometheus
>
> "tuza8" wrote:
>
> Hi prometheu,
> I agree what you said,
> they are some false master
> in public.
>
> recently one femala master,
> her name is master ching hai,
> master ching hai claim herself
> is 8 billion plane initiation level,
>
> do you believe it?
>
> in 1985 she become master
> and began taught mediatation
> on light and sound, whom said
> come from higher world into
> this lower world ,
>
> her also said come to this
> lower world many times,
> alway is a master for help
> people.
>
> do you believe?

Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
even a twisted moral imperative.

Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
like a small intervention.

Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
>
> Hi I am,
> It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet. 
So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
>
> --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom  wrote:
>
>
> From: iam999freedom
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
>
> Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
>
> I AM
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see it
when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
good.  But when people are hurt,
>  there are always others
> > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned. 
After all, most of them are so
>  busy hiding their
> > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they hide
from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to admit
that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not sparkle
like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the knowledge
to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths have a lot
of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever even start to
see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your heart can break
but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would rather know my
heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.  Strong loving
hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use others haven't even
begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the pain.  Eckankar
doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does that say about the
lem and the
>  other leaders of
> > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they can
even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
> >
> > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: prometheus_973
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > I'm not so sure that humans
> > will ever become like, God,
> > our imagined or possible
> > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > not in any lifetime soon.
> >
> > But, it could be that the
> > universe(s) just happened
> > and that the remnants of
> > other life forms were spread
> > to this planet, and others,
> > via space rubble... from
> > destroyed civilizations
> > and planets. Or, was it an
> > intentional seeding by an
> > advanced race... which was,
> > itself, seeded by another
> > advanced race etc.
> >
> > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > experiences we have
> > are the result of
> > interaction with the
> > quantum mechanical
> > field?
> >
> > Anyway, it seems to me
> > that what really matters
> > are relationships. It's our
> > relationships with others,
> > even strangers, that matter
> > most. This is how we really
> > learn and grow. Loving
> > relationships are valuable.
> >
> > Klemp, and others like
> > him, are: liars; posers;
> > have arrested development;
> > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > and are even psychopathic.
> > They are incapable of learning,
> > or caring about others (are
> > unloving) and attempt to
> > impede social progress and
> > justice. They use the rest of
> > us for their own personal
> > greed and selfish desires.
> >
> > Then, again, this strife and
> > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > created can make life interesting
> > and a challenge, although,
> > it can/will also be physically
> > and emotionally painful.
> >
> > But, having a regular life
> > without additional commitments
> > and involvements can also
> > offer rewarding experiences
> > and insights. We are never
> > all that alone. However, I'm
> > not sure how peace of any
> > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > will ever happen in a world
> > controlled by sociopaths.
> >
> > One must care about everyone
> > and have caring relationships
> > with people in order for humankind
> > to advance and survive. To me,
> > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > I almost included animals, too,
> > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > include "caring" about them (all)
> > too.
> >
> > How can one really "care" about
> > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > except to keep them away from
> > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > people.
> >
> > When one thinks about it the
> > definition of what's "normal"
> > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > seem to be more pathological
> > than the introverts don't you
> > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > to force us introverts to become
> > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > loves company I suppose or is
> > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > is more intimidating.
> >
> > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > to worship and viewed as being
> > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > from "us" being involved in our
> > lives because of the differences
> > we see in one another. This is
> > why there are so many different
> > religious dogmas of what's right
> > and wrong.
> >
> > Therefore, the differences in the
> > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > nor take responsibility for our own
> > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > use God as our scape goat.
> >
> > There are major flaws with all
> > of these religions and the so-called
> > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > all hearsay and the only thing
> > that, supposedly, gives them
> > validation is that these various
> > people in history/myth that the
> > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > to have said or done some nice,
> > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > time (being ancient) seems to
> > have given them credibility, because
> > it is believed and taught that
> > only Divine Intercession could
> > have been the source for their
> > Divine Inspiration.
> >
> > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > today, who are not even followers
> > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > of these major and minor religions.
> > Many of these people inspired
> > others by never giving up in time
> > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > there weren't many other choices.
> > Even those who did give up and
> > had bad things befall them, still,
> > maintained their faith and this
> > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > or saints. If this is the standard
> > for religions there are an awful
> > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > that just as deluded and desperate.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > with unconditional love for the
> > master and you get a submissive
> > control pattern as your reward.
> > Buyer beware!
> >
> > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > an experiment to see if we
> > are all capable of evolving
> > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > Are we to become more than
> > merely a divine thought?
> > Maybe there is something
> > more to that piece of a mirror
> > analogy."
> >
> > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> >
> > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> >
> > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed and
> > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> >
> > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the experiment
> > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> >
> > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > that it would ever be necessary.
> >
> > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Non and All,
> > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > summary. I was exploring
> > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > and saw a reference to a
> > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > >
> > > This person is mentioned
> > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > Faith.
> > >
> > > Even when God seems to
> > > turn his back and: causes
> > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > and killed, one is to have
> > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > reward for keeping this
> > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > you to believe in him
> > > regardless of what pain
> > > he allows to befall you.
> > >
> > > One needs to project
> > > a sense of hope in order
> > > to better endure life, as
> > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > >
> > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > challenges when you believe
> > > that God is on your side and
> > > not that of your oppressor.
> > >
> > > However, does God really
> > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > is/was created in man's image.
> > >
> > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy.
> > >
> > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > deserved the punishments as
> > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > most religions see everyday
> > > living and hardships as a test
> > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > to donate money to support
> > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > says and promises the same
> > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > hereafter.
> > >
> > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > admit.
> > >
> > > Well, got to go now....
> > > I just had some thoughts
> > > to share.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > "Non" wrote:
> > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > answers to ask the master etc.
> > >
> > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia Lama
> > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to question
> > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > >
> > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way to
> > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > >
> > > Non ;)
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Janice,
> > > Yes, one would think that
> > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > would, at least, attempt
> > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > that's not the case with
> > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > out there by demonstrating
> > > his powers? It's not like
> > > he announced to the
> > > whole world that he was....
> > > oh wait, he did!
> > >
> > > That was a long time ago
> > > and he never did make
> > > any predictions as most
> > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > made some predictions.
> > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > mine and that's why he
> > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > as a real prophet.
> > >
> > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > cautious of being too
> > > direct and understood.
> > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > imagine what they want,
> > > need and expect until
> > > they go too far and have
> > > to have a behaviour
> > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > perspective when he tells
> > > a story.
> > >
> > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > why put too much
> > > effort into it! And, he
> > > figures that all he needs
> > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > will substitute Soul for
> > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > >
> > > It's really quite amazing
> > > how simple Klemp's
> > > redundant message is.
> > > If EKists would just compare
> > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > leaders one would have
> > > to wonder what they see
> > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > but they just laugh at his
> > > quirkiness because he's
> > > operating on so many
> > > high planes of consciousness
> > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > >
> > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > park with the current Dali
> > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > religion while Eckankar
> > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > the two leaders and how
> > > they present themselves
> > > and what they have to say.
> > >
> > > Will ECKists make the
> > > comparison? No, of course
> > > not! They won't even allow
> > > the door to be opened a
> > > crack because some light
> > > might get in and show
> > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > handle the Truth and
> > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > what would they replace
> > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > responsibility to think for
> > > oneself and exercise free
> > > will. And, it would make
> > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > of those EK friends.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy to
say
> > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess he
is
> > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in and
ask
> > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > charlatan to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people can increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

I've never had so much trouble with a news server than with Yahoo. Just found
out my account has been bouncing emails again (which means I don't get the
messages) since December 30th.

Now I have to go back and read about two weeks of posts.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"  wrote:
>
> Welcome back Etznab, you flip-flopper (over on ET). Just expressing a bit of
my dark side. (half-joking).
>
> Anyway, happy New Year to you and All!
>
> Cheers,
> I AM
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
> >
> > Apologies to all if I did not respond since the 27th ... my Yahoo account
has been bouncing again. I've never known this to happen so much as in the last
couple years. It seems that my account bounces emails now on average about every
six weeks. And when it does I don't receive any Yahoo posts in the mail (until I
unbounce it). Not for any Yahoo group!
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "iam999freedom"  wrote:
> > >
> > > The gnosis is a lot of some say, others say, still others say (my comment,
yeah sure).
> > >
> > > The other version about Adam only wanting sex sounds more guy typical LOL.
> > >
> > > The HBO version is a spin of a myth to capitalize on a cultural
phenomenon.
> > >
> > > It all sounds so ludicrous. LOL
> > >
> > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Etznab and All,
> > > > Yes, the gospel here:
> > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
> > > > had a very warped way
> > > > of viewing women as
> > > > well. I had read, elsewhere,
> > > > that Lilith was created
> > > > in the same way as Adam
> > > > and was his equal, but
> > > > she didn't want to stay
> > > > with Adam, she was more
> > > > spiritual. Plus, Adam was
> > > > a tool, was domineering
> > > > and only wanted sex.
> > > > Thus, Lilith asked God
> > > > if she could be with
> > > > him in Heaven and this
> > > > was granted. Therefore,
> > > > Lilith was not a demon
> > > > and evil but was actually
> > > > very spiritual.
> > > >
> > > > The HBO series "True Blood"
> > > > has a different take on Lilith.
> > > > She was the first Vampire and
> > > > God's first, perfect, creation.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > > etznab wrote:
> > > > Too bad there wasn't someone to challenge the writers at the time of
> > > > the creation. It seems there was not, but maybe there was and they were
> > > > eliminated for having a rational mind. It's not much different today
> > > > because one can see where words were cribbed, changed around and where
> > > > myth and propaganda took its place. It sometimes happens when a person
> > > > tries to point these things out that others often react with anger.
> > > > They will try to attack you and your work. I have seen it over at
> > > > a.r.e. many times and it hasn't stopped. The message I read today was:
> > > >
> > > > "I wonder why people really bother themselves about showing others the
> > > > charade in eckankar. If you really believe it is all crap but others
> > > > choose to believe in it then leave them be. [... .]"
> > > >
> > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#
> > > > !topic/alt.religion.eckankar/H\
> > > > 82gz2n-WqA
> > > >
> > > > Can anybody tell me how many men, women and children were killed in the
> > > > name of "religion" because people BELIEVED and they were left to be?
> > > >
> > > > I think the problem with "beliefs" is that one can take a natural event
> > > > in history and with "belief" make a hundred, or more ficticious
> > > > versions of it. What this can do, however, is set a hundred or more
> > > > people against one another. And as they are allowed to be in their
> > > > "belief" that each of the stories is literally true they can have
> > > > children and teach them to believe as well.
> > > >
> > > > As it is today there are so many cultures following so many religions
> > > > (that also interpret history and explain creation) holding people
> > > > within the yoke of so many particular "beliefs". And not all, but some
> > > > of the people who don't agree with one another will fight and die for
> > > > their beliefs ... regardless whether they know them to be true, or
> > > > where and how they even evolved.
> > > >
> > > > ***
> > > >
> > > > For the record, I can't prove the credibility of Lila as described by
> > > > the sources I quoted and know that it could be as Prometheus stated; so
> > > > many mental gymnastics, whatever. At least I could mention it though,
> > > > ask for feedback and not get strung up on a cross for doing so.
> > > >
> > > > I think one of the ways to arrive at truth is to offer something up to
> > > > others for critical inspection. There is a "freedom of religion" in
> > > > America which protects people's right to "believe" in whatever, but at
> > > > the same time if a person researches the evolution and creation of
> > > > religious dogma, etc., that is not the same as attacking other people,
> > > > IMO; neither is sharing the research on a public forum. It is simply
> > > > historical research and a desire to clarify fact from fiction. I
> > > > believe the latter is also a right under the U.S. constitution.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Non wrote:
> > > > Kind of funny actually, that Adam had to try out bestiality to get
> > > > God's attention. Also, how could God be so stupid as to get it right
> > > > for the beasts, but not for Adam? Sounds like God is very human trying
> > > > to figure all of this out, and trying to explain how there could be
> > > > variations for humans in sexuality, androgynous, and even women
> > > > complaining about their preference as far as sexual positions, and then
> > > > being horribly punished for their insolence.
> > > >
> > > > I needed a good laugh! So typical of religious myths to explain things
> > > > by pulling stuff out of your arse. Sorry, had to.
> > > >
> > > > Non ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
   > > > >
> > > > > Hello All,
> > > > > It's all interesting mental
> > > > > gymnastics and circular
> > > > > thinking fueled by myth.
> > > > > When reading about lila I
> > > > > thought of Lillith and how
> > > > > God kept screwing up in
> > > > > order to please Adam.
> > > > >
> > > > http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

"However, HK has somewhat contradicted what is in CH. 3 of the Shariyat. It
states that "the spiritual workers created man and placed
within him a living imperishable Spirit, called Soul."

***

Then the spiritual workers created man and placed within him a living
imperishable Spirit, called Soul; and man became like the living gods of the
spirit worlds with intellectual powers, physical strength, and Soul. ... ." -
S.K.S., Book One, p. 44

Compare with:

"The Seventh Command: And when this was done, the Seventh Intellect said: 'Let
us make man after our own fashion and let us endow him with powers to rule this
earth.' Then the Seven-Headed Intellect, The Creator of All Things throughout
the Universe, created man and placed within his body a living, imperishable
spirit, and man became like the Creator in intellectual power."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/ssm07.htm

and (this is the older version)

"Then Narayana, the Seven-headed Intellect, the Creator of all things throughout
the universe, created man, and placed within his body a living, imperishable
spirit, and man became like Narayana in intellectual power. Then was creation
complete."

http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

Judging by the number of other similarities between writings of Twitchell and
Churchward (concerning creation and Lemuria, etc.) I wonder if that quote by
Twitchell was not entirely original. In fact, I believe Churchward's first book
(Lost Continent of Mu) was part of the recommended reading list mentioned in
LTG.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello I Am,
> Okay, let me give it
> a shot and use some
> excerpts etc.
>
> HK's talking about
> psychological studies
> using identical twins
> (not conjoined) that
> were separated soon
> after birth. They grew
> up elsewhere and had
> different influences
> but dressed the same
> and had the same type
> of dog and gave the
> dog the same name etc.,
> etc.
>
> Thus, it seems that
> Free Will relies upon
> genetics (nature) more
> than it does upon nurture,
> although, HK says that
> Yogi Berra stated that
> "in theory, practice doesn't
> matter; in practice, it does."
>
> BTW- According to Klemp
> "The Lords of Karma have
> selected a body with the
> appropriate genes for each
> student."
>
> However, HK has somewhat
> contradicted what is in CH.
> 3 of the Shariyat. It states
> that "the spiritual workers
> created man and placed
> within him a living imperishable
> Spirit, called Soul."
>
> There is no other mention
> of these "spiritual workers."
>
> Anywho-
>
> HK is so clever the way
> he'll twist a quote to add
> even more confusion to
> his message of absolute
> servitude and obedience.
>
> I counted HK using "But"
> four times. In an old H.I.
> Letter he said never to
> use "But" with one another
> and that it was a nail in
> the coffin of invention and
> took away from what was
> previously said.
>
> HK:
> "BUT they dug in their heels
> at the finding that such twins'
> IQs were nearly as similar as
> their heights."
>
> "The hamster's destiny is firmly
> set. A kind owner may let it out
> into the room on occasion. BUT
> it is still in a house."
>
> "Researchers, too, can advance
> only to a fixed point in their studies
> of what elements make up a whole
> individual. BUT they do not have
> a magical key to the spiritual self.
> The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
>
> Funny that Klemp states that he
> holds "a magical key" to control
> others like a Black Magician would.
>
> "The Mahanta alone can help people
> out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
> must have the right kind and amount
> of daily experiences."
>
> I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
> and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
> Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
> the "right kind and amount of daily
> experiences."
>
> Yes, Klemp like most religionists
> doesn't like science and psychologists
> since getting locked up in an asylum
> and having to "play-the-game" to
> be released early.
>
> HK states that "Real free will rests
> entirely on trusting the Master's
> prompts [signs?] as to which of
> many choices to make in all things
> human and divine."
>
> In other words do as I say not
> as I do and there is no such
> thing as Free Will for ECKists.
> Does that kind sound like Cult
> think? Klemp is getting nuttier
> and scarier! HK goes on to say
> that "He gives suggestions" and
> "seldom does he issue directives...
> True Free Will of an individual
> stands upon the Mahanta's
> guidance."
>
> Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
> as he speaks from experience:
> "Master Magicians turn subjects'
> ingrained ideas about patterns
> against them. A subject thinks
> he has the quick mind and eyes
> to catch a Magician in an act,
> even while he is being unburdened
> of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
> That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
> played upon people by illusion."
>
> "Again, keep in-touch with the
> Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
> exercises," but write those snail-
> mail IROs so I'll know what you're
> thinking and so I can use those
> stories for my next book.
>
>
> iam999freedom wrote:
> Hi Prometheus,
>
> On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote about
> "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to myself:
> "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
>
> Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
> turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
> been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
> and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
> different character than the other."
>
> I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the Wisdom
> Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
morning
> on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
>
> I still have yet to receive a response.
>
> I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
Note
> that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
>
> Thanks,
> I AM
>
>
>
>
> prometheus_wrote:
> >
> > The December 2012
> > Eckankar Mystic World
> > in the Ask the Master
> > section are two interesting
> > questions and answers.
> >
> > The first question has
> > to do with Stress and
> > how to overcome it.
> >
> > HK's answer is wishy-
> > washy at best. He says
> > that stress is "very
> > uncomfortable... Yet
> > stress is a good teacher."
> >
> > Klemp goes on to say
> > that people increase
> > their tolerance to stress
> > by eating healthy, getting
> > enough sleep, and by
> > "Reducing our overuse
> > of electronic devices."
> >
> > In other words it seems
> > Klemp is saying, in a
> > roundabout way, to use
> > moderation. After all,
> > he's saying to reduce
> > "overuse."
> >
> > Then, again, how does
> > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > not use their computer
> > 8 hours a day?
> >
> > The next question involves
> > reincarnation. This guy's
> > wife gave birth to a baby
> > boy and two days later his
> > mother translated (died).
> > He indirectly asked if this
> > new baby was his mother.
> >
> > Instead of giving this EKist
> > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > When it comes to rebirth,
> > anything at all can happen...
> > Whichever Soul is now your
> > son, everything is in accord
> > with what is best for all around."
> >
> > Prometheus
>

Of course their are genetic similarities between twins. However, there was
mention - according to a study - that genes, not upbringing had influence on a
number of things. Another study suggested that "even one's political leanings
are largely shaped by genes (not by 'free will,' or choice.)"

OK? Got the picture now? Combine that with the first paragraph of Harold's
article and with the other paragraphs that mentioned free will, illusion and
influence of genes.

My impression from the article was that genes were considered to have great
influence upon people's behaviors, even moreso than upbringing, or life's
experiences.

Now, I've seen studies where twins grow up in different environments where one
gets cancer and the other doesn't. Also, I think there is a lot of "dark space"
about the physiology of genes (just like there is a lot of "dark space" in the
universe ... the majority, some think.) Genes, IMO, don't matter so much as
whether the genes are "turned on" or not. There are lots and lots of genes (or
DNA) that remain inactive I think, what they call junk DNA, and my guess is that
life experiences and upbringing DO have an effect on shaping individual
character. Even with identical twins.

The idea that genes have such a great influence on behavior is just relative to
any number of other things, IMO.

I had to wonder, was Harold speaking about Eugenics? or something similar?

Consider the following:

Doubts on genetic mutation triggered by inheritance

"The first major challenge to conventional eugenics based upon genetic
inheritance was made in 1915 by Thomas Hunt Morgan, who demonstrated the event
of genetic mutation occurring outside of inheritance involving the discovery of
the hatching of a fruit fly with white eyes from a family and ancestry of the
red-eyed Drosophila melanogaster species of fruit fly.[36] Morgan claimed that
this demonstrated that major genetic changes occurred outside of inheritance and
that the concept of eugenics based upon genetic inheritance was, to some extent,
not completely scientifically accurate.[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Doubts_on_genetic_mutation_triggered_by_in\
heritance

"A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given
to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain
that has a function in the organism. [... .]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genes#Changing_concept

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello I AM and All,
> Actually Klemp did cite some
> studies and I Googled it myself
> and saw that there is proof that
> identical twins share similarities.
> The mirrored behaviors could
> be genetical with brain frequencies
> and brain function being the
> same due to a quantum mechanical
> influence. I threw that last one
> in on my own, but who knows?
>
> I'm surprised that Klemp didn't
> use the EK "Time-Twin" or a
> Twin Soul concept. But, he did
> use the Lords of Karma ruse
> which, BTW, is not solely owned
> by Eckankar.
>
> Yes, Klemp uses Bait and Switch
> to get new members by promising
> "Self-Mastery" and "Spiritual
> Liberation" but then he switches
> it up and demands (suggests)
> Mahanta Codependency and Sales
> Team participation in order to,
> possibly, get promoted and receive
> "Spiritual Rewards."
>
> It is funny that Klemp claims to
> take "Free Will" away from Souls
> who join Eckankar and follow him.
> Does this mean that those Souls
> who aren't chained to Klemp, do,
> have Free Will? It sounds like it!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> iam999freedom wrote:
> Hi Prometheus,
> Having a background in psychology I can say that the chances are highly
> improbable that two identical twins seperated at birth would have the same
type
> of dog with the same name, etc. Studies have shown that the environment has
> perhaps an equally important effect on an individual's personality as genetics
> do and twins will undoubtedly have different characters after interaction with
> the environment.
>
> As far as the Lords of Karma selecting a body with the appropriate genes for
> each student, what role does Soul or Spirit have in all of this? Are Souls
> merely dress up dolls with no free choice?
>
> According to HK it's always about trusting the Mahanta's guidance to make the
> right choices in life. When decision go awry it's because the Mahanta wasn't
> listened to. When choices go right it's "glorify the Mahanta time".
>
> What about reason, intuition, following your joy, love, passion, bliss, etc.
> Whatever happened to an individual with sincerity, devotion, free will, and
love
> etc., uniquely connecting with Spirit/God though meditation, contemplation, or
> prayer without an intermediary? Sounds like maturity and reality.
>
> I AM
>
> prometheus_973" wrote:
> >
> > Hello I Am,
> > Okay, let me give it
> > a shot and use some
> > excerpts etc.
> >
> > HK's talking about
> > psychological studies
> > using identical twins
> > (not conjoined) that
> > were separated soon
> > after birth. They grew
> > up elsewhere and had
> > different influences
> > but dressed the same
> > and had the same type
> > of dog and gave the
> > dog the same name etc.,
> > etc.
> >
> > Thus, it seems that
> > Free Will relies upon
> > genetics (nature) more
> > than it does upon nurture,
> > although, HK says that
> > Yogi Berra stated that
> > "in theory, practice doesn't
> > matter; in practice, it does."
> >
> > BTW- According to Klemp
> > "The Lords of Karma have
> > selected a body with the
> > appropriate genes for each
> > student."
> >
> > However, HK has somewhat
> > contradicted what is in CH.
> > 3 of the Shariyat. It states
> > that "the spiritual workers
> > created man and placed
> > within him a living imperishable
> > Spirit, called Soul."
> >
> > There is no other mention
> > of these "spiritual workers."
> >
> > Anywho-
> >
> > HK is so clever the way
> > he'll twist a quote to add
> > even more confusion to
> > his message of absolute
> > servitude and obedience.
> >
> > I counted HK using "But"
> > four times. In an old H.I.
> > Letter he said never to
> > use "But" with one another
> > and that it was a nail in
> > the coffin of invention and
> > took away from what was
> > previously said.
> >
> > HK:
> > "BUT they dug in their heels
> > at the finding that such twins'
> > IQs were nearly as similar as
> > their heights."
> >
> > "The hamster's destiny is firmly
> > set. A kind owner may let it out
> > into the room on occasion. BUT
> > it is still in a house."
> >
> > "Researchers, too, can advance
> > only to a fixed point in their studies
> > of what elements make up a whole
> > individual. BUT they do not have
> > a magical key to the spiritual self.
> > The Mahanta, the LEM holds that."
> >
> > Funny that Klemp states that he
> > holds "a magical key" to control
> > others like a Black Magician would.
> >
> > "The Mahanta alone can help people
> > out of the mire of illusions. BUT they
> > must have the right kind and amount
> > of daily experiences."
> >
> > I'm taking it that EKists must be Vahanas
> > and FREE WILL volunteers on Klemp's
> > Mahanta Sales Team in order to have
> > the "right kind and amount of daily
> > experiences."
> >
> > Yes, Klemp like most religionists
> > doesn't like science and psychologists
> > since getting locked up in an asylum
> > and having to "play-the-game" to
> > be released early.
> >
> > HK states that "Real free will rests
> > entirely on trusting the Master's
> > prompts [signs?] as to which of
> > many choices to make in all things
> > human and divine."
> >
> > In other words do as I say not
> > as I do and there is no such
> > thing as Free Will for ECKists.
> > Does that kind sound like Cult
> > think? Klemp is getting nuttier
> > and scarier! HK goes on to say
> > that "He gives suggestions" and
> > "seldom does he issue directives...
> > True Free Will of an individual
> > stands upon the Mahanta's
> > guidance."
> >
> > Klemp, now, looks into the mirror
> > as he speaks from experience:
> > "Master Magicians turn subjects'
> > ingrained ideas about patterns
> > against them. A subject thinks
> > he has the quick mind and eyes
> > to catch a Magician in an act,
> > even while he is being unburdened
> > of watch, glasses, wallet, and keys.
> > That is the ever so sly kind of ruse
> > played upon people by illusion."
> >
> > "Again, keep in-touch with the
> > Mahanta [me]. Do your spiritual
> > exercises," but write those snail-
> > mail IROs so I'll know what you're
> > thinking and so I can use those
> > stories for my next book.
> >
> >
> > iam999freedom wrote:
> > Hi Prometheus,
> >
> > On Dec 24 Etznab wrote, "Now, on the other hand, when Harold Klemp wrote
about
> > "free will" and genes in the December 2012 Wisdom Note I had to say to
myself:
> > "It looks to me like Harold has lost it!"
> >
> > Btw, I read that Wisdom Note just before bed. In the morning when I
> > turned on the TV there was a news blurb about conjoined twins that had
> > been successfully separated. Then they went on to describe the twins
> > and how they were NOT the same and that (in so many words) one had a
> > different character than the other."
> >
> > I asked Etznab if he could send a summary to ESA of the article in the
Wisdom
> > Note so I could try and tie in HK's quote with what Etznab saw the next
> morning on TV about conjoined twins. (above)
> >
> > I still have yet to receive a response.
> >
> > I was wondering if you could share what could have been in the Dec. Mystic
> Note that relates to the quote above about the conjoined twins.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > I AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > prometheus_wrote:
> > >
> > > The December 2012
> > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > in the Ask the Master
> > > section are two interesting
> > > questions and answers.
> > >
> > > The first question has
> > > to do with Stress and
> > > how to overcome it.
> > >
> > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > washy at best. He says
> > > that stress is "very
> > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > stress is a good teacher."
> > >
> > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > that people increase
> > > their tolerance to stress
> > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > enough sleep, and by
> > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > of electronic devices."
> > >
> > > In other words it seems
> > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > roundabout way, to use
> > > moderation. After all,
> > > he's saying to reduce
> > > "overuse."
> > >
> > > Then, again, how does
> > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > not use their computer
> > > 8 hours a day?
> > >
> > > The next question involves
> > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > boy and two days later his
> > > mother translated (died).
> > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > new baby was his mother.
> > >
> > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > anything at all can happen...
> > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > son, everything is in accord
> > > with what is best for all around."
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> >
>

Some excerpts for consideration (Not saying I subscribe, or believe, all that
was mentioned on the following page).

"One can simply use words and sentences of the human language! This, too, was
experimentally proven! Living DNA substance (in living tissue, not in vitro)
will always react to language-modulated laser rays and even to radio waves, if
the proper frequencies are being used."

"Esoteric and spiritual teachers have known for ages that our body is
programmable by language, words and thought."

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=28103

***

Some other topic-related articles.

"Eastern philosophy guru Deepak Chopra says he has one way to reform our sorry
state of health care: by reconnecting with our spiritual side. [....] In a phone
interview, Chopra said that what we think and how we feel physically change our
brains and bodies. He pointed to research on neuropeptides, which are
protein-like molocules used by brain cells to communicate information to one
another.
    "Thinking a thought or feeling an emotion, he said, causes a synapse to fire
neuropeptides not just to other brain cells, but to cells throughout the body
including the immune system. Once a cell receives a   neuropeptide, he added,
its information changes that cell down to the genetic level.
   " 'Now we're starting to see that how you behave, how you think,   your
personal relationships, social interactions, environment, diet, stress levels,
they all modulate the activities of your genes,' he said. 'So what you think can
change your genes and the structure of your brain.' [....] Chopra is a medically
trained endocrinologist and former chief of staff at New England Memorial
Hospital during the 1970s. He said he quit traditional   medicine because 'we
were acting like legalized drug pushers and prolonging suffering.' [....]"

[Based on: Article (Eastern philosopher stresses the biology of happiness /
Deepak Chopra says what we think and how we feel   physically change our brains
and bodies.) by Cynthia Billhartz Gregorian, pp. B1 & B3, S.L.P.D., 10/15/09]

"Researchers from ETH Zurich have fitted human cells with a synthetic signaling
cascade that can be used to switch on and regulate genes via blue light. [....]
The calcium inside the cell activates an enzyme that separates the phosphate
group (P) from the protein NFAT-P. NFAT thus enters the cell nucleus, where it
binds to a synthetic control sequence and switches on the target gene the
researchers have introduced. The gene becomes active and the cell produces
numerous copies of the protein, for which the gene is the blueprint. By
controlling the amount of light and its intensity,   the researchers can also
regulate how much of the protein is produced. Switching the gene off is easy:
light off, gene off. After all, without light melanopsin   is no longer
stimulated, no more calcium accumulates in the cells and the signal cascade is
interrupted. [....]" [Based on: ScienceDaily article (Genes at the Flick of a
Light Switch: Human Cells Fitted With Synthetic   Signaling Cascade), June 22,
2011]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110623141200.htm

"Autism is not caused by one or two major gene defects but by hundreds of small
genetic mutations, many of which are no inherited   but arise spontaneously,
according to research published Wednesday [06/08/11]. In three studies appearing
in the journal Neuron, researchers paint the disorder   that affects one in 110
U.S. children as a complete puzzle of genetic miscues that causes dysfunction in
the brain's synapses - critical junctions between   nerve cells. [....]" [Based
on: Article (Study paints autism as a genetic puzzle), p. A12, S.L.P.D.,
06/09/11]

***

Besides the above there are environmental factors which can influence a person's
genes. Including radiations, genetically modified plants and animals, etc.

Some others ...

***

Identical twins are not quite as identical as once thought, according to a new
study of DNA.

Life, it seems, changes everyone in unique ways.

One twin might get cancer while the the other is not susceptible, for example.
Many identical twins clearly behave differently as they grow older, and some
even grow to look less alike.

Such differences have to do not with the twins' identical DNA, which is the
software of life, but in how genes express themselves, the research found. The
differences stem from chemical modifications in the genes over the years.

These epigenetic effects, as they are called, are the result of chemical
exposure, dietary habits and other environmental factors, the scientists
believe. [...]

Gene expression and behavior is altered by a process called methylation.
Scientists think a better understanding of methylation could aid cancer
research.

"One would expect identical twins to develop and express genes at the same
levels, but in fact this changes over time," Plass said. "We think that
methylation plays a genome-wide role in these changes."

http://www.livescience.com/3905-identical-twins-identical.html

Increasing evidence is revealing a role of methylation in the interaction of
environmental factors with genetic expression. Differences in maternal care
during the first 6 days of life in the rat induce differential methylation
patterns in some promoter regions, thus influencing gene expression.[7]
Furthermore, even-more-dynamic processes such as interleukin signaling have been
shown to be regulated by methylation.[8]

Research in humans has shown that repeated high level activation of the body's
stress system, especially in early childhood, can alter methylation processes
and lead to changes in the chemistry of the individual's DNA. The chemical
changes can disable genes and prevent the brain from properly regulating its
response to stress. Researchers and clinicians have drawn a link between this
neurochemical disregulation and the development of chronic health problems such
as depression, obesity, diabetes, hypertension, and coronary artery disease.
[9][10][11][12][13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylation

How much control do you really have over facial aging?

A new study of identical twins shows that life experiences and environmental
factors have a big effect on how fast or slowly our faces age. Researchers
recruited nearly 200 sets of identical twins who were attending the annual twin
festival in Twinsburg, Ohio.

Twin research is especially useful in the study of aging because twins are
"genetically programmed'' to age the same way, said study author Dr. Bahman
Guyuron, chairman of the department of plastic surgery at the University
Hospitals of Cleveland and Case Western Reserve University. As a result, any
perceived differences in appearance among twins can give clues as to what
environmental and lifestyle factors can strongly influence aging, he said. [...
.]

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/twin-studies-explain-wrinkles-of-aging/

***

I suspect it is not only genes that determine behavior traits, but life and
environmental factors too. Adaptability and mutation are a part of evolution
wherein life forms struggle to survive. If everything were determined by genes
there probably wouldn't be so many species. Life forms would never evolve to
higher stages. What history shows is that life forms have ultimately been able
to surpass genetic disposition according to life choices and FREE WILL in spite
of genetic disposition.

Where was Harold K. going with his own article that mentioned genes I am still
not certain. Unless it were to show that karma and genes are not the final
determinants in a person's life. On that I agree. One could argue, however,
whether "Mahanta" is the only answer; when it (the word Mahanta) can be such a
"loaded" term.

Maybe there is something though, something like a "Higher Self" able to exercise
supernatural powers ... available to every individual regardless their religious
affiliation, or membership dues?

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"  wrote:
>
> Some excerpts for consideration (Not saying I subscribe, or believe, all that
was mentioned on the following page).
>
> "One can simply use words and sentences of the human language! This, too, was
experimentally proven! Living DNA substance (in living tissue, not in vitro)
will always react to language-modulated laser rays and even to radio waves, if
the proper frequencies are being used."
>
> "Esoteric and spiritual teachers have known for ages that our body is
programmable by language, words and thought."
>
> http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=28103
>
> ***
>
> Some other topic-related articles.
>
> "Eastern philosophy guru Deepak Chopra says he has one way to reform our sorry
state of health care: by reconnecting with our spiritual side. [....] In a phone
interview, Chopra said that what we think and how we feel physically change our
brains and bodies. He pointed to research on neuropeptides, which are
protein-like molocules used by brain cells to communicate information to one
another.
>    "Thinking a thought or feeling an emotion, he said, causes a synapse to
fire neuropeptides not just to other brain cells, but to cells throughout the
body including the immune system. Once a cell receives a   neuropeptide, he
added, its information changes that cell down to the genetic level.
>   " 'Now we're starting to see that how you behave, how you think,   your
personal relationships, social interactions, environment, diet, stress levels,
they all modulate the activities of your genes,' he said. 'So what you think can
change your genes and the structure of your brain.' [....] Chopra is a medically
trained endocrinologist and former chief of staff at New England Memorial
Hospital during the 1970s. He said he quit traditional   medicine because 'we
were acting like legalized drug pushers and prolonging suffering.' [....]"
>
> [Based on: Article (Eastern philosopher stresses the biology of happiness /
Deepak Chopra says what we think and how we feel   physically change our brains
and bodies.) by Cynthia Billhartz Gregorian, pp. B1 & B3, S.L.P.D., 10/15/09]
>
> "Researchers from ETH Zurich have fitted human cells with a synthetic
signaling cascade that can be used to switch on and regulate genes via blue
light. [....] The calcium inside the cell activates an enzyme that separates the
phosphate group (P) from the protein NFAT-P. NFAT thus enters the cell nucleus,
where it binds to a synthetic control sequence and switches on the target gene
the researchers have introduced. The gene becomes active and the cell produces
numerous copies of the protein, for which the gene is the blueprint. By
controlling the amount of light and its intensity,   the researchers can also
regulate how much of the protein is produced. Switching the gene off is easy:
light off, gene off. After all, without light melanopsin   is no longer
stimulated, no more calcium accumulates in the cells and the signal cascade is
interrupted. [....]" [Based on: ScienceDaily article (Genes at the Flick of a
Light Switch: Human Cells Fitted With Synthetic   Signaling Cascade), June 22,
2011]
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110623141200.htm
>
> "Autism is not caused by one or two major gene defects but by hundreds of
small genetic mutations, many of which are no inherited   but arise
spontaneously, according to research published Wednesday [06/08/11]. In three
studies appearing in the journal Neuron, researchers paint the disorder   that
affects one in 110 U.S. children as a complete puzzle of genetic miscues that
causes dysfunction in the brain's synapses - critical junctions between   nerve
cells. [....]" [Based on: Article (Study paints autism as a genetic puzzle), p.
A12, S.L.P.D., 06/09/11]
>
> ***
>
> Besides the above there are environmental factors which can influence a
person's genes. Including radiations, genetically modified plants and animals,
etc.
>

Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
as far as religion may be growing. :)

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non"  wrote:
>
> Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
even a twisted moral imperative.
>
> Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
like a small intervention.
>
> Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
>
> Non ;)
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer  wrote:
> >
> > Hi I am,
> > It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet. 
So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
possible and let them go on their way.  Thanks for your comments. 
> >
> > --- On Tue, 1/8/13, iam999freedom  wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: iam999freedom
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, January 8, 2013, 6:38 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> >
> > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> >
> > I AM
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
good.  But when people are hurt,
> >  there are always others
> > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned. 
After all, most of them are so
> >  busy hiding their
> > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all. 
Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
that say about the lem and the
> >  other leaders of
> > > eckankar?  I'd say those they use are closer to perfection than they
can even see.  Bless all the loving eckist tonight. 
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 1/7/13, prometheus_973 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: prometheus_973
> > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Wishy-Washy Mahanta
> > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Monday, January 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > will ever become like, God,
> > > our imagined or possible
> > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > >
> > > But, it could be that the
> > > universe(s) just happened
> > > and that the remnants of
> > > other life forms were spread
> > > to this planet, and others,
> > > via space rubble... from
> > > destroyed civilizations
> > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > intentional seeding by an
> > > advanced race... which was,
> > > itself, seeded by another
> > > advanced race etc.
> > >
> > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > experiences we have
> > > are the result of
> > > interaction with the
> > > quantum mechanical
> > > field?
> > >
> > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > that what really matters
> > > are relationships. It's our
> > > relationships with others,
> > > even strangers, that matter
> > > most. This is how we really
> > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > relationships are valuable.
> > >
> > > Klemp, and others like
> > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > have arrested development;
> > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > or caring about others (are
> > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > impede social progress and
> > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > us for their own personal
> > > greed and selfish desires.
> > >
> > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > created can make life interesting
> > > and a challenge, although,
> > > it can/will also be physically
> > > and emotionally painful.
> > >
> > > But, having a regular life
> > > without additional commitments
> > > and involvements can also
> > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > and insights. We are never
> > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > not sure how peace of any
> > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > will ever happen in a world
> > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > >
> > > One must care about everyone
> > > and have caring relationships
> > > with people in order for humankind
> > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > too.
> > >
> > > How can one really "care" about
> > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > except to keep them away from
> > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > people.
> > >
> > > When one thinks about it the
> > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > seem to be more pathological
> > > than the introverts don't you
> > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > to force us introverts to become
> > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > is more intimidating.
> > >
> > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > lives because of the differences
> > > we see in one another. This is
> > > why there are so many different
> > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > and wrong.
> > >
> > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > use God as our scape goat.
> > >
> > > There are major flaws with all
> > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > validation is that these various
> > > people in history/myth that the
> > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > have given them credibility, because
> > > it is believed and taught that
> > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > have been the source for their
> > > Divine Inspiration.
> > >
> > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > today, who are not even followers
> > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > Many of these people inspired
> > > others by never giving up in time
> > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > Even those who did give up and
> > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > maintained their faith and this
> > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > for religions there are an awful
> > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > with unconditional love for the
> > > master and you get a submissive
> > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > Buyer beware!
> > >
> > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy."
> > >
> > > I've often wondered about the "mirror analogy". That is, Soul is like a
> > > shattered piece of a mirror that God wants back to complete itself again.
> > > I not sure this will happen because would not the end result of that be
> > > stagnation setting in? I think the show must go on. Perhaps I'm
misinterpreting
> > > the end result of the mirror analagy.
> > >
> > > I like your summary of the big picture being "simply an experiment to
> > > see if we are all capable of evolving into our "spiritual" potential."
> > >
> > > I remember in school our teacher talking about something being in a static
> > > or peaceful state then being knocked out of that equillibrium by another
event.
> > > Some chaos would result before returning to equillibrium. An example is a
person
> > > has a job they enjoy then are let go because of downsizing and are dazed
and
> > > lost until they find a new job. On and on in our life we are constantly
moving
> > > from equillibrium to unrest and back. I would like to think our life has
more
> > > meaning than being in a pinball machine.
> > >
> > > Perhaps God wants us to evolve our spiritual potential. When we unfold
> > > spiritually (which includes meeting challenges and being creative in this
> > > lifetime)we start fulfilling our spiritual potential. The freedom of
expressions
> > > and experiences that await us upon death and perhaps "life after life", if
> > > needed, is beyond our human imagination and are ever expanding. God
> > > would take great joy in us meeting our spiritual maturity as the
experiment
> > > It created is life expresed in greater and greater states and universes.
> > >
> > > Could we ever actually become God completely? I don't know. I don't think
> > > that it would ever be necessary.
> > >
> > > Also sharing some thoughts. Thanks for yours.
> > >
> > > I AM
> > >
> > > prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Non and All,
> > > > Thanks for the insightful
> > > > summary. I was exploring
> > > > the dogma of some fundamentalist
> > > > charismatic Christian churches
> > > > and saw a reference to a
> > > > minor (Jewish) prophet:
> > > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Habakkuk
> > > >
> > > > This person is mentioned
> > > > not by Jesus but by one of
> > > > his apostles in order to inspire
> > > > Faith.
> > > >
> > > > Even when God seems to
> > > > turn his back and: causes
> > > > crops to fail; flocks to be
> > > > lost; cities attacked and
> > > > overrun by your enemies;
> > > > people brutalized, tortured
> > > > and killed, one is to have
> > > > Faith in God and a hereafter
> > > > reward for keeping this
> > > > faith. God's ego needs
> > > > you to believe in him
> > > > regardless of what pain
> > > > he allows to befall you.
> > > >
> > > > One needs to project
> > > > a sense of hope in order
> > > > to better endure life, as
> > > > it is, no matter how bad.
> > > >
> > > > And, it's easier to face these
> > > > challenges when you believe
> > > > that God is on your side and
> > > > not that of your oppressor.
> > > >
> > > > However, does God really
> > > > take sides? It seems that God
> > > > is/was created in man's image.
> > > >
> > > > All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > > an experiment to see if we
> > > > are all capable of evolving
> > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > > Are we to become more than
> > > > merely a divine thought?
> > > > Maybe there is something
> > > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > > analogy.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, religions (even Eckankar)
> > > > has the belief that you (and your
> > > > fellow believers or countrymen)
> > > > deserved the punishments as
> > > > repayment for sin. Some call it
> > > > Karma or cause and effect, or
> > > > what you sow you reap. Plus,
> > > > most religions see everyday
> > > > living and hardships as a test
> > > > of faith. Yet, one is supposed
> > > > to donate money to support
> > > > the specific dogma that, basically,
> > > > says and promises the same
> > > > or similar things in the imagined
> > > > hereafter.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, each religion has always
> > > > blamed the non-believers for
> > > > the sins that they suffer under
> > > > as well. Eckankar is no different
> > > > and Klemp is more like these
> > > > preachers than EKists could ever
> > > > admit.
> > > >
> > > > Well, got to go now....
> > > > I just had some thoughts
> > > > to share.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > "Non" wrote:
> > > So true about Googling Krishnamurti or the current Dahlia Lama for quotes
> > > compared to klemp. Why? Furor Klemp just doesn't do his own spiritual
> > > exercises, because he is a FRAUD. Ever see him lead his followers in
anything
> > > beyond maybe a hu chant or something else lame. Everything he learned was
> > > from plagiarized material and he didn't even bother to study under anyone
> > > tails of deceivers and peddlers of consumer packaged DELUSION. Anything
> > > he says is carefully crafted by probably ghost writers in books and stupid
> > > answers to ask the master etc.
> > > >
> > > Krishnamurti disavowed Theosophy when he could have exploited others
> > > as the new World teacher. That's honesty and integrity and he would say to
> > > not believe in anything he said, but find out for your self. The Dahlia
Lama
> > > is similar and admits that he does not know for sure if he is the true
Dahlia
> > > Lama and to always question your teacher or "Master", and he has turned
> > > leadership in Tibet in exile into a Democracy. Klemp never says to
question
> > > him, because as is stated on the WEB site, eckankar is a hierarchical
religion,
> > > with the living eck master as the ultimate authority. (Mein Kampf (My
Struggle
> > > by HItler) by klemp is a more appropriate title to his life story.)
> > > >
> > > They just can't seem to let go of authoritarianism. Kind of sickening when
> > > you think of it. And I notice that they have been going out of their way
to
> > > advertise in the Newspaper under the religious section. The ad is very
benign
> > > on the surface, but is pure lies and deception. I wonder how many are
actually
> > > drawn into at least wasting 6 months to a year or more before they figure
out
> > > it is a fraud. I should go down to the Library and post some kind of sign.
> > > >
> > > > Non ;)
> > > >
> > > > prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Janice,
> > > > Yes, one would think that
> > > > a "Modern Day Prophet"
> > > > would, at least, attempt
> > > > to live up to his PR, but
> > > > that's not the case with
> > > > Klemp. Why put himself
> > > > out there by demonstrating
> > > > his powers? It's not like
> > > > he announced to the
> > > > whole world that he was....
> > > > oh wait, he did!
> > > >
> > > > That was a long time ago
> > > > and he never did make
> > > > any predictions as most
> > > > prophets do. Even Twit
> > > > made some predictions.
> > > > But, I'm sure that EKists
> > > > haven't noticed and don't
> > > > mine and that's why he
> > > > doesn't feel any pressure
> > > > to preform his responsibilities
> > > > as a real prophet.
> > > >
> > > > Instead, Harold is very
> > > > cautious of being too
> > > > direct and understood.
> > > > He'd rather have EKists
> > > > fill-in the blanks and
> > > > imagine what they want,
> > > > need and expect until
> > > > they go too far and have
> > > > to have a behaviour
> > > > adjustment by their RESA.
> > > > That's why Klemp usually
> > > > gives a very one dimensional
> > > > perspective when he tells
> > > > a story.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, Klemp's lazy so
> > > > why put too much
> > > > effort into it! And, he
> > > > figures that all he needs
> > > > to do is the KISS thing
> > > > of Keeping It Simple (for)
> > > > Stupid. Of course EKies
> > > > will substitute Soul for
> > > > Stupid but Stupid fits!
> > > >
> > > > It's really quite amazing
> > > > how simple Klemp's
> > > > redundant message is.
> > > > If EKists would just compare
> > > > Klemp's simple minded
> > > > witticisms to other "spiritual"
> > > > leaders one would have
> > > > to wonder what they see
> > > > in Klemp. He's an embarrassment,
> > > > but they just laugh at his
> > > > quirkiness because he's
> > > > operating on so many
> > > > high planes of consciousness
> > > > simultaneously. LOL!
> > > >
> > > > Just Google Kristamurti's
> > > > quotes or the Dali Lama's.
> > > > Klemp, the great Mahanta,
> > > > isn't even in the same ball
> > > > park with the current Dali
> > > > Lama! And, in HK's Autobiography
> > > > (pg. 385) he claims that
> > > > Buddhism is a 4th Plane
> > > > religion while Eckankar
> > > > is a 14th Plane Religion!
> > > > But, EKists need to compare
> > > > the two leaders and how
> > > > they present themselves
> > > > and what they have to say.
> > > >
> > > > Will ECKists make the
> > > > comparison? No, of course
> > > > not! They won't even allow
> > > > the door to be opened a
> > > > crack because some light
> > > > might get in and show
> > > > them the Truth. They can't
> > > > handle the Truth and
> > > > would rather remain ignorant.
> > > > It's much easier, besides,
> > > > what would they replace
> > > > Eckankar with? It's too much
> > > > responsibility to think for
> > > > oneself and exercise free
> > > > will. And, it would make
> > > > life too lonely to lose all
> > > > of those EK friends.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > > Well, since HK is the mahanta why couldn't he have simple told the man
that
> > > > the child was or was not the soul of his mother? Yep, he is wishy washy
to say
> > > > the least. He doesn't seem to ever answer a question directly. I guess
he is
> > > > afraid to give a committed answer because some one else might write in
and ask
> > > > the same question and he might give the opposite answer. Smells like a
> > > > charlatan to me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The December 2012
> > > > Eckankar Mystic World
> > > > in the Ask the Master
> > > > section are two interesting
> > > > questions and answers.
> > > >
> > > > The first question has
> > > > to do with Stress and
> > > > how to overcome it.
> > > >
> > > > HK's answer is wishy-
> > > > washy at best. He says
> > > > that stress is "very
> > > > uncomfortable... Yet
> > > > stress is a good teacher."
> > > >
> > > > Klemp goes on to say
> > > > that people can increase
> > > > their tolerance to stress
> > > > by eating healthy, getting
> > > > enough sleep, and by
> > > > "Reducing our overuse
> > > > of electronic devices."
> > > >
> > > > In other words it seems
> > > > Klemp is saying, in a
> > > > roundabout way, to use
> > > > moderation. After all,
> > > > he's saying to reduce
> > > > "overuse."
> > > >
> > > > Then, again, how does
> > > > a EK staffer at the ESC
> > > > not use their computer
> > > > 8 hours a day?
> > > >
> > > > The next question involves
> > > > reincarnation. This guy's
> > > > wife gave birth to a baby
> > > > boy and two days later his
> > > > mother translated (died).
> > > > He indirectly asked if this
> > > > new baby was his mother.
> > > >
> > > > Instead of giving this EKist
> > > > a direct answer, Klemp,
> > > > the wishy-washy Mahanta
> > > > says, "Yes, it is quite possible.
> > > > When it comes to rebirth,
> > > > anything at all can happen...
> > > > Whichever Soul is now your
> > > > son, everything is in accord
> > > > with what is best for all around."
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > >
> >
>

A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13

"[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well. I know
that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation, but how do I
know my interpretation is the correct one? The reason I feel confident is
because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly
before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He
was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what
he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is
exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well. [... .]"

[Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
More Questions to Doug Marman]

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

My contributions to the "growing list".

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
r/Ref%23$2041391720

***

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
lGt1TvUM3Q

Hello Non and All,
Actually, having good
interactive relationships
with other people isn't
necessarily about making
new friends nor having
the same religious, political,
and lifestyle beliefs.
Trying to get others
to follow or accept our
beliefs isn't the goal.

It's more about being
"friendly" to/with/for
others and, thus, to
ourselves. Usually, being
friendly and promoting
"friendship" (versus making
friends) isn't that hard
to accomplish. And, if
it is, we need to make
more of an effort and
figure out what it is that's
making this difficult.

Smiles, politeness, sharing
some small talk, and recognizing
the other person by looking
directly at them goes a
long way.

We can have a friendship
(i.e. relationship) with a
clerk whose full name we
might not ever know. It's
fun to simply, and naturally,
smile and be friendly to
strangers and acquaintances
without expecting anything
else. It takes the pressure
off everyone when we keep
it light. This lightness of
Being will help to improve
our lives and that of others.

It's true that we will never
be able to be friendly with
some people. And, we won't
always be friends with those
people we know now. Some
people don't deserve our
efforts and will never deserve
it. They are enemies to what
we believe in.

And, not all relationships
work out nor need to be
continued for the sake of
all those involved. Sometimes
people just have to let go
and move on even with
family members. But, these
are usually relationships
that have become complicated
via various factors and are
usually more one-sided
due to a lack of communication,
closed mindedness and
hurt feelings.

Our positive relationships
with nature, to animals,
and to other people are
connections that make our
lives worth living.


Prometheus





"Non"  wrote:
Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we need
to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making new
friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has it's
challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of unaffiliated
as far as religion may be growing. :)

Non ;)

"Non" wrote:
>
> Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children, to
teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
even a twisted moral imperative.
>
> Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may seem
like a small intervention.
>
> Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and shocked
at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your own
heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
>
> Non ;)
>
Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
Hi I am,
It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
possible and let them go on their way.
Thanks for your comments.
> >
I AM wrote:
> >
Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> >
> > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for the
sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to the
point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> >
> > I AM
> >
Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >
Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their purposes,
there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
> > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown away
by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they
use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving
eckist
tonight.
> > >

prometheus wrote:
> > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > will ever become like, God,
> > > our imagined or possible
> > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > >
> > > But, it could be that the
> > > universe(s) just happened
> > > and that the remnants of
> > > other life forms were spread
> > > to this planet, and others,
> > > via space rubble... from
> > > destroyed civilizations
> > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > intentional seeding by an
> > > advanced race... which was,
> > > itself, seeded by another
> > > advanced race etc.
> > >
> > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > experiences we have
> > > are the result of
> > > interaction with the
> > > quantum mechanical
> > > field?
> > >
> > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > that what really matters
> > > are relationships. It's our
> > > relationships with others,
> > > even strangers, that matter
> > > most. This is how we really
> > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > relationships are valuable.
> > >
> > > Klemp, and others like
> > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > have arrested development;
> > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > or caring about others (are
> > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > impede social progress and
> > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > us for their own personal
> > > greed and selfish desires.
> > >
> > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > created can make life interesting
> > > and a challenge, although,
> > > it can/will also be physically
> > > and emotionally painful.
> > >
> > > But, having a regular life
> > > without additional commitments
> > > and involvements can also
> > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > and insights. We are never
> > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > not sure how peace of any
> > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > will ever happen in a world
> > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > >
> > > One must care about everyone
> > > and have caring relationships
> > > with people in order for humankind
> > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > too.
> > >
> > > How can one really "care" about
> > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > except to keep them away from
> > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > people.
> > >
> > > When one thinks about it the
> > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > seem to be more pathological
> > > than the introverts don't you
> > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > to force us introverts to become
> > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > is more intimidating.
> > >
> > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > lives because of the differences
> > > we see in one another. This is
> > > why there are so many different
> > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > and wrong.
> > >
> > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > use God as our scape goat.
> > >
> > > There are major flaws with all
> > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > validation is that these various
> > > people in history/myth that the
> > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > have given them credibility, because
> > > it is believed and taught that
> > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > have been the source for their
> > > Divine Inspiration.
> > >
> > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > today, who are not even followers
> > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > Many of these people inspired
> > > others by never giving up in time
> > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > Even those who did give up and
> > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > maintained their faith and this
> > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > for religions there are an awful
> > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > with unconditional love for the
> > > master and you get a submissive
> > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > Buyer beware!
> > >
> > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > an experiment to see if we
> > > are all capable of evolving
> > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > Are we to become more than
> > > merely a divine thought?
> > > Maybe there is something
> > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > analogy."

Hello Etznab,
What's this pertain to?
I wasn't able to pull these
sites up.

What's Marman saying
about "the Astral Library
dream"(of PT's?) being
misunderstood... in what
way?

What is the interpretation?
It's more than a metaphor
correct?

Didn't Klemp say that he,
too, visited the Astral Library
and saw Ancient manuscripts
with Twitchell's handwritten
notes scribbled in the margins.

It seems that only EKists have
access to this specific Astral
Plane Library and that it's a
really old style (ancient/wisdom
filled) library that, mostly, EKists
are taught to dream of and
conjure.

BTW-Anyone who plagiarizes,
as Twitchell did, is also a liar.
So why believe anything Twitchell
said?

This is what bothered Klemp.
Klemp realized that Twitchell
was worse than Darwin! The
Astral Library story/dream was
B.S. Klemp has made a vocation
out of Eckankar just as Twitchell
and Gross did. He rationalizes
it all away by thinking that he
is giving a select group of New
Agers something to believe in.
HK's giving them much of what
the other religions give: Faith;
Belief; Promises; Pride; Hope.
While taking their money and
being seen as Pope like by
being infallible and beyond
reproach.

Prometheus


"etznab18"  wrote:
A.R.E. repost from 01/13/13

"[...] As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has become
misunderstood in this way. I [Doug Marman] cover this in my book as well.
I know that some could say that I am just offering another interpretation,
but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?

The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
gave those talks or started writing about it.

He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be
hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not
happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream
as well. [... .]"

[Based on: January 2003 Doug Marman T.S. post - Response to Usually Skeptical:
More Questions to Doug Marman]

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

My contributions to the "growing list".

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckanka\
\
r/Ref%23$2041391720

***

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8\
\
lGt1TvUM3Q

Good points. I think what I had in the back of my mind was that there would
probably be less of a pull toward Cults if people were kinder to themselves and
to each
other. Unfortunately, ours is a very competitive society and the small talk
doesn't get appreciated or is even ignored, but it is certainly worth the
continued effort.

Since I am not in the South, I did notice that quite often, when I was visiting
a friend a several years a go, driving from Atlanta, Georgia to Sarasota,
Florida, that people were much more willing to start a conversation, clerks,
strangers, women smiling and so on. I was told that is "Southern Hospitality".
(At the same time I was shocked to see a giant Confederate flag flying on the
highway.) Where I live, that friendly attitude is not so common. But I will take
your advise to heart and see if it makes a difference.

Non ;)

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"  wrote:
>
> Hello Non and All,
> Actually, having good
> interactive relationships
> with other people isn't
> necessarily about making
> new friends nor having
> the same religious, political,
> and lifestyle beliefs.
> Trying to get others
> to follow or accept our
> beliefs isn't the goal.
>
> It's more about being
> "friendly" to/with/for
> others and, thus, to
> ourselves. Usually, being
> friendly and promoting
> "friendship" (versus making
> friends) isn't that hard
> to accomplish. And, if
> it is, we need to make
> more of an effort and
> figure out what it is that's
> making this difficult.
>
> Smiles, politeness, sharing
> some small talk, and recognizing
> the other person by looking
> directly at them goes a
> long way.
>
> We can have a friendship
> (i.e. relationship) with a
> clerk whose full name we
> might not ever know. It's
> fun to simply, and naturally,
> smile and be friendly to
> strangers and acquaintances
> without expecting anything
> else. It takes the pressure
> off everyone when we keep
> it light. This lightness of
> Being will help to improve
> our lives and that of others.
>
> It's true that we will never
> be able to be friendly with
> some people. And, we won't
> always be friends with those
> people we know now. Some
> people don't deserve our
> efforts and will never deserve
> it. They are enemies to what
> we believe in.
>
> And, not all relationships
> work out nor need to be
> continued for the sake of
> all those involved. Sometimes
> people just have to let go
> and move on even with
> family members. But, these
> are usually relationships
> that have become complicated
> via various factors and are
> usually more one-sided
> due to a lack of communication,
> closed mindedness and
> hurt feelings.
>
> Our positive relationships
> with nature, to animals,
> and to other people are
> connections that make our
> lives worth living.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
>
> "Non"  wrote:
> Prometheus, I like what you said in a previous post on this thread that we
need
> to focus more on caring relationships with others, sometimes easier said than
> done, cause a lot of people in our society are not that interested in making
new
> friends. Finding people who aren't interested in some new or old Dogma has
it's
> challenges as well. However, I have noticed that the demographic of
unaffiliated
> as far as religion may be growing. :)
>
> Non ;)
>
> "Non" wrote:
> >
> > Also, IMHO, it has to do with our woeful ability to care for our children,
to
> teach them kindness through example and compassion. Alice Miller has written a
> lot about some of the worst in our history, like Hitler and Stalin and some
> possible reasons for why they became the psychopathic leaders of what was
> inexhaustible destruction. Some sociopaths, given the power and opportunity to
> act without impunity will not stop and won't be reformed. Then again some may.
> In the mean time, the best approach is to continue to speak out against them,
> otherwise they will see their actions as unopposed and rationalized somehow as
> even a twisted moral imperative.
> >
> > Though they may be damaged or even genetically bent in a certain malevolent
> direction and they have not found in themselves a heart with empathy, at some
> point they simply must be opposed at every possible way, even though it may
seem
> like a small intervention.
> >
> > Anyway, that's my one point of view for now. Recently, I've had several
> situations that have really cautioned me about how some will intentionally con
> and steal and lie in a very deliberate mix of what seems to be sincerity and
> outright manipulation for their own personal gain. I have felt hurt and
shocked
> at the same time. I am learning that it is really a good idea to be vigilant,
> and it is a balancing act of how to do this while still not closing off your
own
> heart and sense of kindness, which I think starts with yourself.
> >
> > Non ;)
> >
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > >
> Hi I am,
> It is not that I feel tolerant of the sociopath but it seems inevitable that
> we deal with them.  I do believe they are those who haven't learned much yet.
> So I feel like the best we can do is keep them from harming us as much as
> possible and let them go on their way.
> Thanks for your comments.
> > >
> I AM wrote:
> > >
> Thanks Prometheus for writing challenging angles to view life from. And
> regardless of our origins it still seems to come down to finding and sharing
> meaning, purpose, love, care etc. in our lives.
> > >
> > > Wow Janice your heart-felt expression of love for life and tolerance for
the
> sociopathically insane really touched me. I have a lot of learning to get to
the
> point that you expressed....very inspirational amd appreciated.
> > >
> > > I AM
> > >
> Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
> > > >
> Thank you Prometheus, I enjoyed your writing very much.  The way I see
> it when the bad guys do bad things and the sociopaths use it for their
purposes,
> there are always the good guys who step forth and do the right things.  We
> talked a lot about that school shooting recently and I believe that is a
> happening that stunned us all.  The senselessness of what happened is not
> something a loving heart can even begin to understand.  But there where
> people there who gave their lives to protect helpless children.  There were
> people from all over the country who helped in anyway they could.  That town
> came together to support each other in an amazing way.  Shared grief does
> appear to make a lighter burden for the individual.  So for me, I think there
> is a kind of balance of good and evil even if it is the evil we hear the most
> about.  We hear so much of the bad it is hard to keep believing in the
> good.  But when people are hurt, there are always others
> > > > who come forward and do what they can to give comfort and love.  It
> doesn't take the pain away but it shows those who are hurting that there is
> still love in the world and no number of atrocities can destroy that
> willingness to help others.  Maybe part of growing is learning to discern the
> motives of others and learning not to be taken in by sociopaths.  Maybe part
> of what we are here to do is to love against all odds when the media blasts us
> everyday with horrible stories and tells us how close we are to being blown
away
> by foreign threats.  Maybe what we are learning is that a loving heart is a
> strong heart while those who usually do these horrible things are afraid and
> broken inside.  Maybe those sociopaths aren't the strongest either since it
> takes so much energy just maintaining their facades that they don't really see
> the precious things in life like those loving relationships you mentioned.
> After all, most of them are so busy hiding their
> > > > true selves they are obviously cowards.  They don't live life, they
> hide from life while trying to grab all they can for themselves.  You got to
> admit that life is full of smoke and mirrors and the real gems in life may not
> sparkle like diamonds but do give off a quiet beauty that only those with the
> knowledge to appreciate them can even see them.  So I guess those sociopaths
> have a lot of learning to do and a lot of growing to do before they can ever
> even start to see a glint of beauty in life itself.  When you love, your
> heart can break but can you really say the love wasn't worth it?  I would
> rather know my heart will hurt than not to feel anything for others at all.
> Strong loving hearts will mend but those shattered beings who harm and use
> others haven't even begun the journey.  Loving hearts can and will share the
> pain.  Eckankar doesn't do anything for anyone but eckankar.  So what does
> that say about the lem and the other leaders of eckankar?  I'd say those they
> use are closer to perfection than they can even see.  Bless all the loving
eckist
> tonight.
> > > >
>
> prometheus wrote:
> > > > Hello I Am, Non, and All,
> > > > I'm not so sure that humans
> > > > will ever become like, God,
> > > > our imagined or possible
> > > > creator. And, if at all, certainly
> > > > not in any lifetime soon.
> > > >
> > > > But, it could be that the
> > > > universe(s) just happened
> > > > and that the remnants of
> > > > other life forms were spread
> > > > to this planet, and others,
> > > > via space rubble... from
> > > > destroyed civilizations
> > > > and planets. Or, was it an
> > > > intentional seeding by an
> > > > advanced race... which was,
> > > > itself, seeded by another
> > > > advanced race etc.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe the "spiritual"
> > > > experiences we have
> > > > are the result of
> > > > interaction with the
> > > > quantum mechanical
> > > > field?
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, it seems to me
> > > > that what really matters
> > > > are relationships. It's our
> > > > relationships with others,
> > > > even strangers, that matter
> > > > most. This is how we really
> > > > learn and grow. Loving
> > > > relationships are valuable.
> > > >
> > > > Klemp, and others like
> > > > him, are: liars; posers;
> > > > have arrested development;
> > > > are sociopathic; narcissistic;
> > > > and are even psychopathic.
> > > > They are incapable of learning,
> > > > or caring about others (are
> > > > unloving) and attempt to
> > > > impede social progress and
> > > > justice. They use the rest of
> > > > us for their own personal
> > > > greed and selfish desires.
> > > >
> > > > Then, again, this strife and
> > > > uncertainly (stress) that is
> > > > created can make life interesting
> > > > and a challenge, although,
> > > > it can/will also be physically
> > > > and emotionally painful.
> > > >
> > > > But, having a regular life
> > > > without additional commitments
> > > > and involvements can also
> > > > offer rewarding experiences
> > > > and insights. We are never
> > > > all that alone. However, I'm
> > > > not sure how peace of any
> > > > sort (except in one's own mind)
> > > > will ever happen in a world
> > > > controlled by sociopaths.
> > > >
> > > > One must care about everyone
> > > > and have caring relationships
> > > > with people in order for humankind
> > > > to advance and survive. To me,
> > > > this is the "spiritual" key to life.
> > > > I almost included animals, too,
> > > > but since I'm not vegan I couldn't
> > > > include "caring" about them (all)
> > > > too.
> > > >
> > > > How can one really "care" about
> > > > the sociopaths and psychopaths
> > > > except to keep them away from
> > > > nice, loving and kind (normal?)
> > > > people.
> > > >
> > > > When one thinks about it the
> > > > definition of what's "normal"
> > > > keeps changing. The extroverts
> > > > seem to be more pathological
> > > > than the introverts don't you
> > > > agree? Yet, the extroverts try
> > > > to force us introverts to become
> > > > extroverted. Why is that? Misery
> > > > loves company I suppose or is
> > > > it that an army of glassy-eyed
> > > > introverts acting, as if, extroverted
> > > > is more intimidating.
> > > >
> > > > In any case the idea of a "God"
> > > > to worship and viewed as being
> > > > "involved" in our lives detracts
> > > > from "us" being involved in our
> > > > lives because of the differences
> > > > we see in one another. This is
> > > > why there are so many different
> > > > religious dogmas of what's right
> > > > and wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, the differences in the
> > > > way in which "God" is worshipped,
> > > > for me, shows that "God" does not
> > > > exist. We don't want to be alone
> > > > nor take responsibility for our own
> > > > actions. Thus, we blame God or
> > > > use God as our scape goat.
> > > >
> > > > There are major flaws with all
> > > > of these religions and the so-called
> > > > "source" of their scriptures. It's
> > > > all hearsay and the only thing
> > > > that, supposedly, gives them
> > > > validation is that these various
> > > > people in history/myth that the
> > > > scribes wrote about are claimed
> > > > to have said or done some nice,
> > > > inspirational, brave, or insightful
> > > > things a very long time ago. Age/
> > > > time (being ancient) seems to
> > > > have given them credibility, because
> > > > it is believed and taught that
> > > > only Divine Intercession could
> > > > have been the source for their
> > > > Divine Inspiration.
> > > >
> > > > But, IMO, there are many people,
> > > > today, who are not even followers
> > > > of these dogmas that are as, or
> > > > more: honest; brave; insightful;
> > > > inspirational; aware; and "spiritual"
> > > > than the prophets, saints, and founders
> > > > of these major and minor religions.
> > > > Many of these people inspired
> > > > others by never giving up in time
> > > > of conflict because, sometimes,
> > > > there weren't many other choices.
> > > > Even those who did give up and
> > > > had bad things befall them, still,
> > > > maintained their faith and this
> > > > fact turned them into "prophets"
> > > > or saints. If this is the standard
> > > > for religions there are an awful
> > > > lot of believers and faithful, today,
> > > > that just as deluded and desperate.
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > iam999freedom" wrote:
> > > > Yes Non, combine authoritarianism
> > > > with unconditional love for the
> > > > master and you get a submissive
> > > > control pattern as your reward.
> > > > Buyer beware!
> > > >
> > > > Prometheus, you wrote:
> > > > "All of this, it seems, is simply
> > > > an experiment to see if we
> > > > are all capable of evolving
> > > > into our "spiritual" potential.
> > > > Are we to become more than
> > > > merely a divine thought?
> > > > Maybe there is something
> > > > more to that piece of a mirror
> > > > analogy."
>