Please note this correction to my post:

"TRANCEformation of America" is written by Mark Phillips and Cathy
O'Brian. Sorry, I mixed up their last names. I wonder what their
real names might be! : ) Those names are just too generic sounding
to be real, in my opinion. Who are they really?

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
<mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi, All!
>
> Another source mentioned on HCS/TS--promoted by the conspiracy
> theorists/"highly evolved souls" who have taken over the BBs there
> is the book TRANCEformation of America written by Mark O'Brian and
> Cathy Phillips. This book supposedly tells a shocking tale of a
> government mind-controlled victim, Cathy Phillips.
>
> To learn more about this book and its authors, you can go
to "Wolves
> in Sheep's Clothing" at:
>
> http://www.sweetliberty.org/wolves1.htm
>
> You will find a report by Maureen Heaton on the Phillips-O'Brian
> book.
>
> Basically, Ms. Heaton debunks this book because:
>
> She says,
>
> 1. it "is a very effective application of mind conditioning."
>
> 2.  "just about every page of TRANCEformation is loaded with
> descriptor of erotic sex"  Ms. Heaton states she has never
seen "any
> affirmation of the basic premise underlying this material that a
> deprogrammed mutipersonality (Cathy O'Brian) would remember in
> detail the degradations they suffered while under the influence of
> MPD. There might be flashes, but fleshing them out in such minute
> explicit manner, including precise wording (as O'Brian does)"
would
> not be possible.
>
> 3. Phillips and O'Brian would not by any logic be allowed to
publish
> this book and run around "telling their story" unless the
government
> is using them-- and well, the mind controlling premise possibility
> in this situation would have to be that Phillips is a government
> agent who is controlling O'Brian. The book is a way to distract
and
> to get in the way of discernment.
>
> 4. There is no corrobrated "testimony"--the story is not
> substantiated.
>
> In final analysis, this book is not truthful--it is fabricated to
> what purpose? It could be that indeed the government is using it
to
> control and get at right wing conspirators by creating
distraction,
> or it is just a tall tale by Phillips and O'BRian to scam people
and
> make a living!
>
> Before spending time and money on this book, I would suggest that
> one investigate these people--Phillips and O'Brian more
thoroughly.
> There is a lot to be found just by googling.
>
> Mish
>
> P.S. if you like pornography, this would be a book for you!

Hi All,

I was looking at my copy of this book by Julian P. Johnson and was
reminded of the source of much of Paul's material when he created
Eckankar. Yes, Eckankar is pretty much just a Western version of
Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

Anyway, here's something I found where Paul Westernized the Five
Passions of the Mind and the Five Virtures. The Radasoami [R]
version, from page 362 of "Path", will be given then the Eckankar
[E] version from page 73 of the Eckankar Lexicon.


PASSION                                VIRTUE

[R] KAM (LUST)               SHIL       CHASTITY, CONTINENCE
[E] KAMA (LUST)              VIVEKA     DISCRIMINATION

[R] KRODH (ANGER)            KSHAMA     FORGIVENESS, TOLERANCE
[E] KRODHA (ANGER)           KSHAMA     FORGIVENESS, TOLERANCE

[R] LOBH (GREED)             SANTOSHA   CONTENTMENT
[E] LOBHA (GREED)            SANTOSHA   CONTENTMENT

[R] MOH (ATTACHMENT)         VIVEKA     DISCRIMINATION
                              VAIRAG     DETACHMENT
[E] MOHA (ATTACHMENT)        VAIRAG     DETACHMENT

[R] AHANKAR (EGO; PRIDE)     DINTA      HUMILITY
[E] AHANKARA (VANITY)        DINTA      HUMILITY

So, as you can see Twitch took "artistic license" and changed one
around. Go to the first Radasoami [R] definition of the "virtue" for
ATTACHMENT which is VIVEKA (DISCRIMINATION) and move it up to the
Eckankar "virture" for LUST. You see, CHASTITY and CONTINENCE just
won't work in the Western world! Paul was somewhat clever with his
lying, but then again he had plenty of practice. And, is it any
wonder why it was always difficult to match up all of the passions
to their opposite virtures. Now we know why! The puzzle is solved!

Prometheus

Hi Prometheus and all:
                                    I must say I've come across this
group's home page before but
never payed any attention to it. I was looking in the links section
on Eckankartruth today,
however and "prometheus" caught my eye from a post of yours that I'd
recently read. I've
read through the archives here and I must say that there has been
quite a lot of "talk"
about the Ford Johnson's "TS" and "HCS" sites. First, I don't make the
assumption that the
people who post represent the leadership of HCS, or HCS in any way at
all. I've posted
there as has "Ingrid" (unless it's another Ingrid) and I'm not in HCS
nor do I have any plans
to be. I've been sort of amazed over time, but I think Ford just
wants to have an open
forum, a freedom of speech forum, on the web (kind of like the
proposition for this one). If
you want to get "into" HCS you can sign up, get their e-newsletters,
discourses or what-all
they have. Or go to a "gathering" (there have been two so far - one
in Las Vegas, and one
just recently in Maryland). Yeah, "Betty" and "Mario" are tedious,
but I juat skip those
posts. Look, internet bulletin boards, discussion, and usenet groups
are all somewhat
similar and you don't want to neccessarily expect a lot of them, as
anyone who's been a
veteran of a.r.e. or similar, by now knows. It's pretty Much "take
what you like or leave it,
don't have any expectations, post what you like or what you want to
and see if there's any
response". It's rather like fishing in a world where the fish think
they're in charge. Oh, and by the way, You don't have to just read a
site, think about it,
and then maybe talk about it somewhere else. You can always post
right there, ask your
questions and clear up your concerns, or correct your
misunderstandings. Here's the thing
about the internet... don't read anything and make assumptions. It's
a big mistake.

Hi, 12eigh!

You make some very valid points in your post. But for the record,
what makes you think that people posting here, have not posted on
HCS and maybe been clobbered by those who dominate there? Perhaps,
this is a much safer site to point out the discrimancies and also
the domination of "one" group think. I believe a lot of individuals
have left HCS, because of the frustration of not being able to post
a balancing perspective. Also, a lot of stuff over there, I believe
is not appropriate material for Truth-seekers and that it is even
more insidious than Eckankar as far as leading people astray.
Namely, the things that I am mentioning here. I am suggesting that
instead of taking a person's opinion on such stuff, including my
own, a person should do the research on such sites as Cassiopaea,
David Icke and TRANCEformation of America. If I would post such a
idea on HCS, I'd be clobbered by you know who! Frankly, I am tired
of that. I also feel that HCS has a responsibility to monitor some
of these strange things, because it looks like it is being condoned
and encouraged. But, of course, the gullible of the world have their
own responsibility to themselves and to not take the easy road by
being readily influenced by those who speak the loudest and the
most.

Personally, I like Mr. Johnson and his book "Confessions of a God
Seeker" is an invaluable tool, but his Bulletin Boards, in my
opinion, leave a lot to be desired. I am also wondering where he is
heading with his group and organization--but it's his ballgame. It
seems right now on this site there is a focus on HCS, but there is
also the focus on Eckankar--they are quite interconnected, so I
think it is okay to opine on both.

Thanks again for your post. I do agree with you for the most part,
but maybe this will clarify why I for one do not care to debate on
HCS. If I post here, some countering of those other sites that are
promoted on HCS BBs, perhaps, someone will see this and decide to
take a deeper look before falling for the spins. That is my purpose,
but I leave it up to the individual. : )

Mish


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
> Hi Prometheus and all:
>                                    I must say I've come across this
> group's home page before but
> never payed any attention to it. I was looking in the links section
> on Eckankartruth today,
> however and "prometheus" caught my eye from a post of yours that
I'd
> recently read. I've
> read through the archives here and I must say that there has been
> quite a lot of "talk"
> about the Ford Johnson's "TS" and "HCS" sites. First, I don't make
the
> assumption that the
> people who post represent the leadership of HCS, or HCS in any way
at
> all. I've posted
> there as has "Ingrid" (unless it's another Ingrid) and I'm not in
HCS
> nor do I have any plans
> to be. I've been sort of amazed over time, but I think Ford just
> wants to have an open
> forum, a freedom of speech forum, on the web (kind of like the
> proposition for this one). If
> you want to get "into" HCS you can sign up, get their e-
newsletters,
> discourses or what-all
> they have. Or go to a "gathering" (there have been two so far - one
> in Las Vegas, and one
> just recently in Maryland). Yeah, "Betty" and "Mario" are tedious,
> but I juat skip those
> posts. Look, internet bulletin boards, discussion, and usenet
groups
> are all somewhat
> similar and you don't want to neccessarily expect a lot of them, as
> anyone who's been a
> veteran of a.r.e. or similar, by now knows. It's pretty Much "take
> what you like or leave it,
> don't have any expectations, post what you like or what you want to
> and see if there's any
> response". It's rather like fishing in a world where the fish think
> they're in charge. Oh, and by the way, You don't have to just read
a
> site, think about it,
> and then maybe talk about it somewhere else. You can always post
> right there, ask your
> questions and clear up your concerns, or correct your
> misunderstandings. Here's the thing
> about the internet... don't read anything and make assumptions.
It's
> a big mistake.

I think we're on the same page as far as what you say in your
post.  I'm brand new to this
group, saw a lot of posts about HCS and thought I'd drop my penny
into the jar. The
internet is like a big mirror. People go on line looking for a
reflection of themselves in
various ways. Then some learn they can put their own stuff on the web
and this lights their
fuse. Because now there's absolutely a reflection of themselves on
the 'net and an
EXtremely public one. That not only they can see (and I believe they
get an ENormous kick,
punch, boost out of this and tune in again and again just to see
themselves) ... that not
only they can see but everyone in the public domain can
(theoretically) see as well and I
believe this is a huge rush and pump for them as well. You know,
people talk about the
internet as a great tool for communication, some even think it's
going to bring about the
next great leap in enlightnenment, spiritual unfoldment. I don't
think so. Just like T.V. is
supposed to have great teaching (educational) potential. Rubbish.
It's never happened.
T.V. in the main, as you know, is a great wasteland.... what do they
say today? 250, 350
channels and "nothing's on"? I don't mean to be pessimistic, because
I'm not a pessimist.
Some times I just want to sit down and have my brains sucked out of
me and my time
wasted. T.V.'s nothing but a commercial medium, and never was
anything else. Its whole
purpopse is to sell you stuff, and it just stings entertainment,
information, or info/
tainment between assaults on your consciousness to keep you tuned in.
The 'net is like
T.V. but with this difference, you can put your own stuff on it as
well. So the initial
attraction is the same. You turn it on looking for some reflection of
yourself, your values,
so you can ease on down within yourself for a half hour, hour, or
two. But the net is like
the ultimate narcissist's mirror. They love it, they've dicovered it,
and they put themselves
into it like crazy. So I'm just saying Caveat Emptor, don't take it
seriously, just have fun,
and don't expect anything "deep" or meaningful, or even spiritual.
Still, the only spiritual unfoldment
you can ever expect to have is in what you do for yourself. No
group, whether in real life
or on the internet will ever do that because it can't. Just you be
you and don't worry about
other people's opinions. That's the thing about the internet. It's
ALL opinion.

Yes, we are agreeing that it is all opinion--yours, mine and
everyone's! : ) I like that you have dropped your "penny into the
jar!" I certainly like dropping in a few of my own, as you have
noted. The part you mention about TV selling products--well, sure,
it wouldn't be on there for "free." But I rather liked the old TV
commercials, and some ads today are pretty good too. It is an art
form! And like everything else we are exposed to, we have to be
mindful of what the "selling game" is and how we can be duped into
believing something for the personal gain of others--products and
ideas.

I remember when my son was about 4 years old, he wanted a particular
pair of sneakers he had seen advertized on TV. The sneakers were a
brand of shoe I would have purchased for him anyway, but I found it
interesting how he noticed the ad. So, finally, I purchased him the
shoes and he was quite excited! He put them on and immediately ran
outside to try them. Shortly, however, he came back to me saying the
shoes did not work. I couldn't figure out why he was so disappointed
in them, until he said he had tried to jump over a bush like he saw
a little boy do in the commercial ad on TV--he said he couldn't jump
high enough over the bush in our yard as he had seen on TV! Well,
this was a nice little lesson for my son as I explained he couldn't
believe everything he saw on TV, in particular in commercials, as it
was just ways to get people to buy things.

I do think there are good programs on TV. Presently, I enjoy Medium
and Joan of Arcadia. I also like many of the reality shows--just
interesting to see how people react/behave under testing
circumstances. I'm not sure that TV is a total vast wasteland, but
again one must use discrimination about how it is used and how much.
Book writing used to be quite a refined art, but anyone can write a
book and get it published today. There is a nice business in self-
publishing. And ghost writers are readily available. Just because
someone has written/published an informative book, doesn't mean it
is valid/true. It may just be a gimmick to sell a product just as
easily as TV commercials are selling. I can see many books as brain
suckers too--well, actually, brain washing devices.

As to internet groups, it is difficult when you don't know the
individuals personally. But yet I have felt comfortable enough at
times to meet people on personal levels and become friends. Sharing
ideas/opinions can be helpful in many ways. The only problem is when
you lose your personal identity or feel controlled by another's
beliefs/opinions. As you say, be yourself!

Thanks, Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
>    I think we're on the same page as far as what you say in your
> post.  I'm brand new to this
> group, saw a lot of posts about HCS and thought I'd drop my penny
> into the jar. The
> internet is like a big mirror. People go on line looking for a
> reflection of themselves in
> various ways. Then some learn they can put their own stuff on the
web
> and this lights their
> fuse. Because now there's absolutely a reflection of themselves on
> the 'net and an
> EXtremely public one. That not only they can see (and I believe
they
> get an ENormous kick,
> punch, boost out of this and tune in again and again just to see
> themselves) ... that not
> only they can see but everyone in the public domain can
> (theoretically) see as well and I
> believe this is a huge rush and pump for them as well. You know,
> people talk about the
> internet as a great tool for communication, some even think it's
> going to bring about the
> next great leap in enlightnenment, spiritual unfoldment. I don't
> think so. Just like T.V. is
> supposed to have great teaching (educational) potential. Rubbish.
> It's never happened.
> T.V. in the main, as you know, is a great wasteland.... what do
they
> say today? 250, 350
> channels and "nothing's on"? I don't mean to be pessimistic,
because
> I'm not a pessimist.
> Some times I just want to sit down and have my brains sucked out of
> me and my time
> wasted. T.V.'s nothing but a commercial medium, and never was
> anything else. Its whole
> purpopse is to sell you stuff, and it just stings entertainment,
> information, or info/
> tainment between assaults on your consciousness to keep you tuned
in.
> The 'net is like
> T.V. but with this difference, you can put your own stuff on it as
> well. So the initial
> attraction is the same. You turn it on looking for some reflection
of
> yourself, your values,
> so you can ease on down within yourself for a half hour, hour, or
> two. But the net is like
> the ultimate narcissist's mirror. They love it, they've dicovered
it,
> and they put themselves
> into it like crazy. So I'm just saying Caveat Emptor, don't take it
> seriously, just have fun,
> and don't expect anything "deep" or meaningful, or even spiritual.
> Still, the only spiritual unfoldment
> you can ever expect to have is in what you do for yourself. No
> group, whether in real life
> or on the internet will ever do that because it can't. Just you be
> you and don't worry about
> other people's opinions. That's the thing about the internet. It's
> ALL opinion.

Hi:
      Thanks. And best wishes. That's a cute story about your son.

Welcome to the site,

I'm sorry I haven't posted to you sooner, but life has many
distractions/lessons. I agree with Mish on the subject of the
Eckankar/HCS connection. I've posted on HCS too! And, Betty H. does
represent the leadership of HCS. She is Ford's Canadian
Representative, tne Youth and Creative Arts Rep., writes for the HCS
Newsletter, and she speaks and MCs at the HCS "Gatherings." And,
Mario is her husband. So, it is no assumption that these two (or at
least Betty) are in leadership positions. This fact makes it
difficult for Ford to be even-handed with the way they are treated
in regard to others. Or, maybe it's not so difficult for Ford to tip
the balance of the scales toward Betty and Mario's point of view!
It's possible that Ford's Umbrella (i.e. Circus Tent) Policy is
intentionally indiscreet and irresponsible! However, too much
freedom allows some individuals to corrupt and mislead. And, Betty
and Mario are overbearing with their views (and lengths of posts)
and both lack the ability to discuss differing perspectives. They
only parrot what they have read from books or Internet sites.
Therefore, they are only expressing another's biased opinions! When
using their own words they contradict themselves and have trouble
connecting the dots which is to say that their critical thinking of
piecing this information together is somewhat askewed (one
dimensional) and lacks comprehension, insight, and discrimination.
But, of course, that's my opinion.

I have to agree with Mish again that I don't consider TV as a "great
wasteland." Actually, when Mish used the expression "Vast Wasteland"
it reminded me of the time I was a camerman for a locally produced
TV show called Vast Wasteland. As I am writing this I'm
also "watching" the Phillies and Cubs [baseball... (those instant
replays are great!)] I also like certain shows like Medium, Joan of
Arcadia, Monk, The Daily Show, The Amazing Race, Periot, Texas No-
Limit Hold'em Poker, and several more! I definitely don't like
commercials, which are getting longer, but this is how they pay for
the programs. [Actually, some commercials are quite funny and
clever] More TV shows are mentioning or showing the 'brand name' on
items used by the characters in the scenes. It would be nice if this
extra revenue made the commercials shorter, but that's like paying
less in taxes... the advantage is seldom with the average consumer.

Take Care and please post more. Your comments are very much welcomed.

Prometheus

Now, here's an example of why reading
and posting is a good thing. I
knew that Betty and Mario lived in Canada but I didn't know Betty had
some kind of
leadership role in the HCS. Incidentally, how do you learn this
stuff, like Betty's being a
HCS rep., M.C.-ing at their "gatherings" and so on? You must be
plugged into some
interesting stuff yourself.
                                I don't have an anti-T.V. or
anti-internet bias and didn't mean to make
that impression. I've watched T.V. for fifty years and still do. I
was just trying to make the
point about both T.V. and the "net" that "what you see, is what you
get" and no one's
obligated to believe any of it or to make a personal investment in it
that may bring about
for them feelings of hurt, umbrage, betrayal, or whatever.
                                 F. Johnson's book was a firebomb for
Eckankar and I think his
"uncovering" material is the best body of it in one place on the
'net. But beyond that, I
thought it was crazy, including his own point of view and his attempt
to firebomb
Christianity and the Surat/Shabda yogas. And consider the trigger for
him blowing his own
brains out so publicly all over the place - Graham Forsyth's journal.
Now there's an
unstable piece of information if I ever saw one. F.J. supposedly is
readying a second book
of his own for publication. I expect this will explain "where he's
at" and where he's going,
or intends to go. It's not something I'm interested in or any
direction I want to go in, but
I'll post where I see someone expressing an interesting point of view
and I don't think
everyone whose posted to his sites is nuts or a "Fordi". And they
also aren't the only sites
on the 'web, either. I suppose I was just trying to make the point as
well not to necessarily
try to find a "home" in a group on the outside or in cyberspace.
Particularly in cyberspace
where people use pseudonames, use a variety of pseudonames, cross
post to themselves
and others as a variety of personalities, personalities of different
genders expressing
different types of viewpoints, and all sorts of wild things.
                                Best wishes,
                                Leigh

Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists (PCTs)

It seems that there is a lot of discussion on various internet
bulletin boards, including the Higher Consciousness Society and the
Truth-seeker, about the existence of the Illuminati and Power Elite
in the world today and how this powerful group is orchestrating and
manipulating world events. There is an interesting site that debunks
much of this world-wide conspiracy theory that some people are
believing.

http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html

This article is interesting in that it explains the original
existence of the Illuminati: "The Illuminati was a secret society in
Bavaria in the late 18th century. They had a political agenda that
included republicanism and abolition of monarchies, which they tried
to institute by means of 'subterfuge, secrecy, and conspiracy,'
including the infiltration of other organizations. They fancied
themselves to be 'enlightened' but they had little success and were
destroyed within fifteen years of their origin (Pipes 1997)."

"Paranoid conspiracy theorists (PCTs) believe the Illuminati cabal
still exists, either in its original form or as a paradigm for later
cabals. Many PCTs believe 'that large Jewish banking families have
been orchestrating various political revolutions and machinations
throughout Europe and America since the late eighteenth century,
with the ultimate aim of bringing about a satanic New World Order.'"

"In the paranoid mind, the Illuminati succeeded in their goals, and
have now infiltrated every government and every aspect of society.
They are responsible for every evil and every unjust act that ever
occurs anywhere; the fact that absolutely no evidence of their
existence can be found only serves to make them stronger and more
frightening. They are the demon in the closet and will probably
never disappear from the paranoid fantasy world of right-wing
conspiracy theorists." --New England Skeptical Society

The article goes on to state that there are two main groups of
PCTs: "the militant Christian fundalmentalist branch and the
UFO/alien branch." They do not support each other because they view
each other as "nuts," but they both are focused on the theory
that "the end is near."

They base this belief in part on the following:

1. "The Illuminati are hastening the coming of the anti-Christ and
the end of the world."

2. They believe in the claim of the connections of powerful family
bloodlines of the Illuminati as set forth by the research of Fritz
Springmeier, "Bloodlines of the Illuminati." I took a brief look at
his list of bloodlines and noted readily one error in his list,
pertaining to the Kennedy and Auchincloss connection. It made me
wonder how many errors are contained in his scenario.

3. The PCTs love David Icke . . . and other writers/lecturers. I
will mention more about David Icke later.

This article is an in-depth analysis of how and why PCTs believe as
they do. If you are interested, it is a good place to start because
there are various links and references listed for further research
of the phenomenon of Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists. In conclusion,
the writer of this article states that PCTs "reinforce each other
and strengthen each other's resolve. They encourage each other to
accept possibility as equal to probability, material experience as
inferior to dreams, hallucinations, and out-of-body experiences,
etc. They have no watchdog equivalent to I.F. Stone, and the mass
media is too busy chasing tabloid rumors and celebrities to serve as
a watchdog of anything. And since the PCTs function almost
completely outside of the normal arenas where they would be
challenged and forced to produce evidence in place of speculation,
they flourish relatively unscathed . . . "

From my own personal experience in trying to discuss the
Illuminati/Power Elite theories with a couple of PCTs I know, it is
impossible. If a person asks too many questions, request facts and
proof, they attack and put you down. These individuals tell you to
read a huge list of books, get involved in reading various internet
websites, including Cassiopaea, David Icke, TRANCEformation of
America, the Order of 300, etc. They seem to view themselves as
knowing more than the general masses and exhibit a belief in their
own higher enlightenment which they call higher awareness! Because
they believe this so firmly, they will always consider those who
are "inside the box" thinkers as being inferior and of a lower
consciousness. I am glad I am doing my research on PCTs because it
is helping me to better understand them and why we just can't be on
the same page. It also explains why a balanced perspective will
never be achieved on any site in which they participate. They must
always come out on top in any discussion--if they can't convince
you, they will drive you away! Websites that give them the freedom
to post seem to become corrupted in a short period of time.

Mish

Hi Leigh,

Sorry that I got an anti-TV/Internet impression... I'm not sure how
that happened. Yes, one has to use discernment when viewing or
reading anything. I try to remember that I am viewing everything
through "filters" that "color" everything I see or interpret. The
awareness of these filters does shift my perspective.

As far as Betty and Mario over on TS/HCS... yes I do hear things,
and some eckie stuff from time to time too. I don't know if Ford is
aware of the close association to the "TRANCEformation of America"
fruitcakes with B&M. Mario especially, is definitely not a "Fordi."
Ford's really too tame for these PCTs as Mish has defined them.

In regard to Ford's points on Christianity and Sant Mat... I found
his comments to be interesting and even brave. Ford merely pointed
out some of the  distortions of Religious Myth from a different
perspective, and I appreciated this. As I've stated before Twitchell
basically took Radasoami and Westernized it with some tweaking that
established a mythological history in order to create a "living
mastership" for himself. This is why the character of Rebazar was
created. Other religions have distorted Truth as well, but over a
longer period of time. This is why Paul "time traveled" (in his
mind) to the past in order to give a historical validity to (his
lies) the eck (eckankar) teachings.

As far as Graham goes... I liked him at first, but the more I read
the more delusional and out-of balance he sounded. I am now
wondering just how delusional Phil Morimitsu is as well. I believe
that L. Ron Hubbard had a Paranoid Personality Disorder which caused
him to be delusional.

As far as Ford goes... I'm not sure of his direction. My opinion has
changed since he has established his "Umbrella Policy" to bring in
all sorts of interests under the HCS NSP (New Spiritual Paradigm).
It's too bad that some common sense and investigation into these
interests (conspiracy cults) was overlooked or just not done for the
sake of "freedom of thought." Or, was it permitted in order to draw
in a greater quantity of members versus quality. Of course, this
(quality factor) seems to be the problem with most all religions
and "spiritual" organizations. It's certainly true with Eckankar!
How can one establish a Truth Seeker site and permit Non-Truth
Seekers? How can one establish a Higher Consciousness Society and
permit conspiracy cultists to become members and even leaders? It's
a contradiction in meaning! Anyway, we'll have to discuss Ford's new
book when it comes out. That should be fun!

On another note... on this site, as far as I know, there is no cross
posting to ourselves. Some of us do use pseudonames, but part of
this site's name is "Anonymous." This is because some people posting
here still have links to people and groups that for various reasons
we do not want revealed. It's a privacy thing, and is not being used
to decieve. However, I can't speak for everyone who comes here as to
what their motives are. Some caution, not to reveal too much, about
ourselves is certainly needed. Therefore, real intimacy and openness
(on any site or even in private emails) might prove to be somewhat
elusive but not impossible.

I enjoyed your comments.

Take Care,
Prometheus




  In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
>                              Now, here's an example of why reading
> and posting is a good thing. I
> knew that Betty and Mario lived in Canada but I didn't know Betty
had
> some kind of
> leadership role in the HCS. Incidentally, how do you learn this
> stuff, like Betty's being a
> HCS rep., M.C.-ing at their "gatherings" and so on? You must be
> plugged into some
> interesting stuff yourself.
>                                I don't have an anti-T.V. or
> anti-internet bias and didn't mean to make
> that impression. I've watched T.V. for fifty years and still do. I
> was just trying to make the
> point about both T.V. and the "net" that "what you see, is what you
> get" and no one's
> obligated to believe any of it or to make a personal investment in
it
> that may bring about
> for them feelings of hurt, umbrage, betrayal, or whatever.
>                                 F. Johnson's book was a firebomb
for
> Eckankar and I think his
> "uncovering" material is the best body of it in one place on the
> 'net. But beyond that, I
> thought it was crazy, including his own point of view and his
attempt
> to firebomb
> Christianity and the Surat/Shabda yogas. And consider the trigger
for
> him blowing his own
> brains out so publicly all over the place - Graham Forsyth's
journal.
> Now there's an
> unstable piece of information if I ever saw one. F.J. supposedly is
> readying a second book
> of his own for publication. I expect this will explain "where he's
> at" and where he's going,
> or intends to go. It's not something I'm interested in or any
> direction I want to go in, but
> I'll post where I see someone expressing an interesting point of
view
> and I don't think
> everyone whose posted to his sites is nuts or a "Fordi". And they
> also aren't the only sites
> on the 'web, either. I suppose I was just trying to make the point
as
> well not to necessarily
> try to find a "home" in a group on the outside or in cyberspace.
> Particularly in cyberspace
> where people use pseudonames, use a variety of pseudonames, cross
> post to themselves
> and others as a variety of personalities, personalities of
different
> genders expressing
> different types of viewpoints, and all sorts of wild things.
>                                Best wishes,
>                                Leigh

Hi Mish,

I enjoyed your post and will have to investigate some of the sites
you have listed. When I saw PCT (Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists) I
also thought of PCP (angeldust) which is a street drug that causes
people to trip out and become delusional. I guess these PCTs have a
propensity that leads to their delusional experiences even without
the PCP!

Prometheus



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
<mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
> Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists (PCTs)
>
> It seems that there is a lot of discussion on various internet
> bulletin boards, including the Higher Consciousness Society and
the
> Truth-seeker, about the existence of the Illuminati and Power
Elite
> in the world today and how this powerful group is orchestrating
and
> manipulating world events. There is an interesting site that
debunks
> much of this world-wide conspiracy theory that some people are
> believing.
>
> http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html
>
> This article is interesting in that it explains the original
> existence of the Illuminati: "The Illuminati was a secret society
in
> Bavaria in the late 18th century. They had a political agenda that
> included republicanism and abolition of monarchies, which they
tried
> to institute by means of 'subterfuge, secrecy, and conspiracy,'
> including the infiltration of other organizations. They fancied
> themselves to be 'enlightened' but they had little success and
were
> destroyed within fifteen years of their origin (Pipes 1997)."
>
> "Paranoid conspiracy theorists (PCTs) believe the Illuminati cabal
> still exists, either in its original form or as a paradigm for
later
> cabals. Many PCTs believe 'that large Jewish banking families have
> been orchestrating various political revolutions and machinations
> throughout Europe and America since the late eighteenth century,
> with the ultimate aim of bringing about a satanic New World
Order.'"
>
> "In the paranoid mind, the Illuminati succeeded in their goals,
and
> have now infiltrated every government and every aspect of society.
> They are responsible for every evil and every unjust act that ever
> occurs anywhere; the fact that absolutely no evidence of their
> existence can be found only serves to make them stronger and more
> frightening. They are the demon in the closet and will probably
> never disappear from the paranoid fantasy world of right-wing
> conspiracy theorists." --New England Skeptical Society
>
> The article goes on to state that there are two main groups of
> PCTs: "the militant Christian fundalmentalist branch and the
> UFO/alien branch." They do not support each other because they
view
> each other as "nuts," but they both are focused on the theory
> that "the end is near."
>
> They base this belief in part on the following:
>
> 1. "The Illuminati are hastening the coming of the anti-Christ and
> the end of the world."
>
> 2. They believe in the claim of the connections of powerful family
> bloodlines of the Illuminati as set forth by the research of Fritz
> Springmeier, "Bloodlines of the Illuminati." I took a brief look
at
> his list of bloodlines and noted readily one error in his list,
> pertaining to the Kennedy and Auchincloss connection. It made me
> wonder how many errors are contained in his scenario.
>
> 3. The PCTs love David Icke . . . and other writers/lecturers. I
> will mention more about David Icke later.
>
> This article is an in-depth analysis of how and why PCTs believe
as
> they do. If you are interested, it is a good place to start
because
> there are various links and references listed for further research
> of the phenomenon of Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists. In conclusion,
> the writer of this article states that PCTs "reinforce each other
> and strengthen each other's resolve. They encourage each other to
> accept possibility as equal to probability, material experience as
> inferior to dreams, hallucinations, and out-of-body experiences,
> etc. They have no watchdog equivalent to I.F. Stone, and the mass
> media is too busy chasing tabloid rumors and celebrities to serve
as
> a watchdog of anything. And since the PCTs function almost
> completely outside of the normal arenas where they would be
> challenged and forced to produce evidence in place of speculation,
> they flourish relatively unscathed . . . "
>
> From my own personal experience in trying to discuss the
> Illuminati/Power Elite theories with a couple of PCTs I know, it
is
> impossible. If a person asks too many questions, request facts and
> proof, they attack and put you down. These individuals tell you to
> read a huge list of books, get involved in reading various
internet
> websites, including Cassiopaea, David Icke, TRANCEformation of
> America, the Order of 300, etc. They seem to view themselves as
> knowing more than the general masses and exhibit a belief in their
> own higher enlightenment which they call higher awareness! Because
> they believe this so firmly, they will always consider those who
> are "inside the box" thinkers as being inferior and of a lower
> consciousness. I am glad I am doing my research on PCTs because it
> is helping me to better understand them and why we just can't be
on
> the same page. It also explains why a balanced perspective will
> never be achieved on any site in which they participate. They must
> always come out on top in any discussion--if they can't convince
> you, they will drive you away! Websites that give them the freedom
> to post seem to become corrupted in a short period of time.
>
> Mish

Hi. Yeah. I've only had four posts here so
I'm still overgeneralizing. Actually
some of the things that Ford J. has said about what light and sound
experiences really are
and where they come from (our own higher self, according to him) have
been some food
for thought for me. Nothing specific in what he's saying, but the
general idea. Also "names
and games" are just some general reflections of experiences I've had
with the web. I didn't
have that impression at all about China Point, here :) which seems
like a mighy nice place!

I need to make one slight correction on my post here (well, one so
far that I have noticed! : )  )

Instead of the "Order of the 300," I meant "The Committee of 300," a
book written by John Coleman. Sorry for the error!


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
<mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
> Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists (PCTs)
>
> It seems that there is a lot of discussion on various internet
> bulletin boards, including the Higher Consciousness Society and
the
> Truth-seeker, about the existence of the Illuminati and Power
Elite
> in the world today and how this powerful group is orchestrating
and
> manipulating world events. There is an interesting site that
debunks
> much of this world-wide conspiracy theory that some people are
> believing.
>
> http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html
>
> This article is interesting in that it explains the original
> existence of the Illuminati: "The Illuminati was a secret society
in
> Bavaria in the late 18th century. They had a political agenda that
> included republicanism and abolition of monarchies, which they
tried
> to institute by means of 'subterfuge, secrecy, and conspiracy,'
> including the infiltration of other organizations. They fancied
> themselves to be 'enlightened' but they had little success and
were
> destroyed within fifteen years of their origin (Pipes 1997)."
>
> "Paranoid conspiracy theorists (PCTs) believe the Illuminati cabal
> still exists, either in its original form or as a paradigm for
later
> cabals. Many PCTs believe 'that large Jewish banking families have
> been orchestrating various political revolutions and machinations
> throughout Europe and America since the late eighteenth century,
> with the ultimate aim of bringing about a satanic New World
Order.'"
>
> "In the paranoid mind, the Illuminati succeeded in their goals,
and
> have now infiltrated every government and every aspect of society.
> They are responsible for every evil and every unjust act that ever
> occurs anywhere; the fact that absolutely no evidence of their
> existence can be found only serves to make them stronger and more
> frightening. They are the demon in the closet and will probably
> never disappear from the paranoid fantasy world of right-wing
> conspiracy theorists." --New England Skeptical Society
>
> The article goes on to state that there are two main groups of
> PCTs: "the militant Christian fundalmentalist branch and the
> UFO/alien branch." They do not support each other because they
view
> each other as "nuts," but they both are focused on the theory
> that "the end is near."
>
> They base this belief in part on the following:
>
> 1. "The Illuminati are hastening the coming of the anti-Christ and
> the end of the world."
>
> 2. They believe in the claim of the connections of powerful family
> bloodlines of the Illuminati as set forth by the research of Fritz
> Springmeier, "Bloodlines of the Illuminati." I took a brief look
at
> his list of bloodlines and noted readily one error in his list,
> pertaining to the Kennedy and Auchincloss connection. It made me
> wonder how many errors are contained in his scenario.
>
> 3. The PCTs love David Icke . . . and other writers/lecturers. I
> will mention more about David Icke later.
>
> This article is an in-depth analysis of how and why PCTs believe
as
> they do. If you are interested, it is a good place to start
because
> there are various links and references listed for further research
> of the phenomenon of Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists. In conclusion,
> the writer of this article states that PCTs "reinforce each other
> and strengthen each other's resolve. They encourage each other to
> accept possibility as equal to probability, material experience as
> inferior to dreams, hallucinations, and out-of-body experiences,
> etc. They have no watchdog equivalent to I.F. Stone, and the mass
> media is too busy chasing tabloid rumors and celebrities to serve
as
> a watchdog of anything. And since the PCTs function almost
> completely outside of the normal arenas where they would be
> challenged and forced to produce evidence in place of speculation,
> they flourish relatively unscathed . . . "
>
> From my own personal experience in trying to discuss the
> Illuminati/Power Elite theories with a couple of PCTs I know, it
is
> impossible. If a person asks too many questions, request facts and
> proof, they attack and put you down. These individuals tell you to
> read a huge list of books, get involved in reading various
internet
> websites, including Cassiopaea, David Icke, TRANCEformation of
> America, the Order of 300, etc. They seem to view themselves as
> knowing more than the general masses and exhibit a belief in their
> own higher enlightenment which they call higher awareness! Because
> they believe this so firmly, they will always consider those who
> are "inside the box" thinkers as being inferior and of a lower
> consciousness. I am glad I am doing my research on PCTs because it
> is helping me to better understand them and why we just can't be
on
> the same page. It also explains why a balanced perspective will
> never be achieved on any site in which they participate. They must
> always come out on top in any discussion--if they can't convince
> you, they will drive you away! Websites that give them the freedom
> to post seem to become corrupted in a short period of time.
>
> Mish

Hi Leigh,

Have you ever been to Paducah (aka Chinapoint)? The surrounding area
in the old part of town, near the river, is being renovated somewhat
with brick paving, historical buildings, shops, and a wall with
murals depicting Paducah's early history, etc. I thought it was
interesting how Twitchell used the code word of "Chinapoint" to
refer to Paducah in some of his writings.

The HCS Gathering was April 30 and May 1. The set-up was on Friday
April 29. It just so happened that Eckankar (Maryland Satsang
Society) had a Past Lives, Dreams and Soul Travel Workshop next to
or near to Ford's HCS Gathering at the Holiday Inn in Silver
Springs, MD. Debbie Johnson and Dave Ings were the guest speakers
and the RESA Karen Moe was also there. What a hoot! People were
coming up to Ford with arms streached out for a hug and some were
buying his book, and asking what he has been up to! These Eckists
never knew he had left Eckankar! The RESA had a person stand outside
near the HCS door to steer people away from the HCS group. Funny
huh! :-))

Prometheus


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
>                         Hi. Yeah. I've only had four posts here so
> I'm still overgeneralizing. Actually
> some of the things that Ford J. has said about what light and sound
> experiences really are
> and where they come from (our own higher self, according to him)
have
> been some food
> for thought for me. Nothing specific in what he's saying, but the
> general idea. Also "names
> and games" are just some general reflections of experiences I've
had
> with the web. I didn't
> have that impression at all about China Point, here :) which seems
> like a mighy nice place!

Hi Prometheus:
                         No I've never been to Paducha but it tuns out
I was only sixty miles away
while I was in the Army. I spent all my time in Tennessee and
Nashville however. No allure
to the northwest and the Ohio River. And that's another thing. It's
the Ohio, not the
Mississippi, which it joins downstream. My mind is forming the word
"lie", here and my
tongue wants to twist in my head. God, it never stops, does it? Maybe
F.J.'s right in using
the word "mythomaniac". Someone who compulsively and obsessively
twists a dream and
whose switch for this is always in the "on" position.
                         Yeah it's funny about the "serendipity in
Silver Springs". I'm not surprised,
however, that no one had a clue. It's amazing the unawareness that
attends "the path of
total awareness". But that's what happens when you live in a bubble
and have no idea
you're living in a bubble or why nothing ever really meshes.



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
> Hi Leigh,
>
> Have you ever been to Paducah (aka Chinapoint)? The surrounding
area
> in the old part of town, near the river, is being renovated
somewhat
> with brick paving, historical buildings, shops, and a wall with
> murals depicting Paducah's early history, etc. I thought it was
> interesting how Twitchell used the code word of "Chinapoint" to
> refer to Paducah in some of his writings.
>
> The HCS Gathering was April 30 and May 1. The set-up was on Friday
> April 29. It just so happened that Eckankar (Maryland Satsang
> Society) had a Past Lives, Dreams and Soul Travel Workshop next to
> or near to Ford's HCS Gathering at the Holiday Inn in Silver
> Springs, MD. Debbie Johnson and Dave Ings were the guest speakers
> and the RESA Karen Moe was also there. What a hoot! People were
> coming up to Ford with arms streached out for a hug and some were
> buying his book, and asking what he has been up to! These Eckists
> never knew he had left Eckankar! The RESA had a person stand
outside
> near the HCS door to steer people away from the HCS group. Funny
> huh! :-))
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> >                         Hi. Yeah. I've only had four posts here so
> > I'm still overgeneralizing. Actually
> > some of the things that Ford J. has said about what light and
sound
> > experiences really are
> > and where they come from (our own higher self, according to him)
> have
> > been some food
> > for thought for me. Nothing specific in what he's saying, but the
> > general idea. Also "names
> > and games" are just some general reflections of experiences I've
> had
> > with the web. I didn't
> > have that impression at all about China Point, here :) which seems
> > like a mighy nice place!

Hi P.:
          No, I'll take it back. It's not about twisting dreams (mind stuff) it's
about imagination.
I know this because I learned it for myself a couple of years ago. When you're
really on top
of the form (imagination) you can say anything, project anything. But there's no
sense of
responsibility that goes with it. Comparison, attribution, right and wrong,
simply can't be,
and aren't adjoined to it, are meaningless, simply can't be brought into any
relationship to
it which will shape or form it. So I simply kept my mouth shut because with no
way to
account in the direction of any reliable objective and no objective morality or
purpose to
compare it with, or shape it, well...you can "imagine". This is what I think
happened to
Paul, and how he went nuts. I know it's how and why Darwin went nuts, and is
nuts. And I
think Harold is very aware of this. And why he says virtually nothing and
develops virtually
no ideas. He does not want this to happen to him as well, and it would. Now, a
wag would
say "it already has, and blah, blah, blah". But a wag is just a wag and I'm
being as serious
as anything I've ever been serious about by saying this. You can "master"
imagination but
you can't control it. Nothing can. "So what do you want to create?" (I would
caution anyone)
and also (to) think very, very, carefully and very, very, slowly before
responding to the
question with an answer. You asked about Phil Morimitsu in a previous post.
Here's the
thing. Imagination has no sense of objectivity, no sense of purpose and no sense
of use.
You can not get them from it. How dangerous then does this become to play with
over
time?

Hi,

just wanted to say "hello" to you all, especially to the new members -
glad that you're here!

I enjoyed all of your posts - will write later when I have more time.

Ingrid

A little bit of imagination (all-creativity) goes a lo-ong way.
And anyone who's disdained
the illuminated mind and its development (compassion, better
understanding) on the way
to it is someone you want to give a wi-ide berth.

David Icke is a former British soccer player and sports announcer
who
began his new career as a conspiracy theorist in the early 1990's.
He
was born in 1952 in Leicester, England. To date, he has written and
published around 30 books and goes on lecture tours. His Internet
site
has a lot of activity and interest. Of course, he is controversial
and
there is argument about whether what he theorizes has merit or if he
is just a plain "nut" case.

Icke believes the origin of the Illuminati is extraterrestrial--his
proof: He is "contacted regularly with messages from beyond by alien
lizards." (Skeptic.com) His book, "The Biggest Secret: The Book That
Will Change the World," written and published in 1999, discusses his
belief that "the planet was being run by a New World Order
controlled
by a race of reptilian humanoids called the 'Babylonian
Brotherhood.'"
(encyclopedia.lockergnome.com)He believes that many prominent people
and "practically every world leader, including Queen Elizabeth and
several of our U.S. presidents are either reptilian or work for the
reptiles. He bases, in part, this belief in statements he claims
made
my the late Princess Diana when she referred to the British royal
family as being lizards, and also from Cathy O'Brian in
TRANCEformation of America when she claims that George Bush, Sr. was
an alien reptile. O'Brian claims that Bush is a paedophile and
serial
killer, etc. She says she saw Bush transform "like chameleon into a
reptile." Icke says he knows other people who have seen this too. In
my previous post, I said that many people dismiss the
Phillips/O'Brian's story about Mind Control because they offer no
proof to substantiate what they claim. My question concerning the
validity of Icke's conspiracy theories is this for one: why does he
readily accept what is written in "TRANCEformation of America" when
Phillips and O'Brian do not come forth with their evidence?
Supposedly
O'Brian's back is a mass of scars from the torture inflicted on her--
yet she does not show her scars. That would be simple enough for
beginning proof of their allegations and story.

Icke was a former member of The Green Party, but they have dismissed
association with him since he began his book writings on the
Illuminati. I also read where he was a member of the British Neo-
Nazis. There is criticism that he is anti-Semitic in his views. This
stems in part from his endorsement of "The Protocols of the Elders
of Zion." The "Protocols" are forged documents that caught the
attention of Henry Ford who had 4 volumes of books on the subject
printed in both English and German and distributed in Europe. Later,
when Ford discovered the information was false, Hitler was already
using the book as a tool to rid Europe of the Jews. Well, no wonder,
there is argument about Icke being anti-Semitic!

From Disinformation.com: "Icke lays out a conspiriology 'grand
narrative' that involves every major conspiracy theory and occult
society that ever existed, an alternative view of history which Icke
contends has been kept from the majority of the human race. . .

Read as fictional metapho, Icke's books are a paranoid roller-
coaster
ride through Humanity's eternal struggle to consciously evolve from
primitive and violent deep-brain subsystem to whole-Earth
macro-views.
But unfortunately many readers are confusing the map with the
territory, resulting in the 'information overload' that semiotician
Umberto Eco wryly warned about in his masterful postmodern
novel 'Foucault's Pendulum' (Picador, 1990) . . .

According to a scathing review of "The Biggest Secret' by the late
Jim
Keith, Icke lacks the finely honed analytical skills required to
discrimniate between credible and delusional sources." (i.e.
Phillips
and O'Brian for one)

At one time, I was briefly interested in reading a couple of Icke's
books, but when I did some researching, some of which I am sharing
here, I backed away from spending my time and money on him. I was
criticized for not being "open." : ) I took a brief look this
morning
at some of his books that are for sale on Amazon.com. I notice that
the prices have dropped from their original $30.00 (no discount) to
about
30% off. Well, that is more appealing, but I still view his writing
as
a waste of time--MPO. What I also noticed was a lack of editorial
book
reviews by Amazon, even though there are several posted by readers
of
Icke's books. I thought that was odd. I'm not sure if that means
anything, but it seems no one at Amazon has taken the time to review
the books, and perhaps have not read them????

I will list some of the internet sites I visited in researching
David
Icke in case you are interested in delving more. Of course, just
googling pulls up a lot of pros and cons. I admit that my
perspective
is negative, even though, the general premise of conspiracies I do
not
disagree with. I recognize that conspiracies do take place on both
large and small scale events. They are always happening, from the
beginning of time. I question though the validity of the
Illuminati/Power Elite theories in that it is so broad-ranged and
powerful. I can't believe either that most prominent people are
members of this secret society or puppets being pulled by strings.
Well, enough of that--my personal opinions!

http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id330/pg1/

http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles/bsecret.html

http://www.rightwingnews.com/crackpots/reptile.php

http://www.encyclopeida.lockergnome.com/s/b/David_Icke

http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000022389/

http://www.pubiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm

http://www.masonicinfo.com/icke.htm

I can't resist a final quote from the Right Wing News entitled "The
Greys Are Mutants From Atlantis Who Bred With Lizards And Survived
Earths Cataclysms" by John Hawkins:

"While perusing various conspiracy sites to get material for ACPOTI
(Anyone can post on the internet), I've run across various
references
to a guy named David Icke. After doing a little checking around, I
found that his web page is quite popular. According to Alexa.com,
it's
the 23,170th most popular page on the internet which is fairly
impressive.

However--how shall I put this--David Icke is howling at the moon,
gibbering in a straight jacket, mad as a hatter, goofy as a pet
racoon
INSANE! He actually believes that there are reptile people running
the
planet--it just doesn't get much crazier than that. Yet his page is
pulling traffic, he's selling books, and he's even on a speaking
tour.
Apparently, being out of your mind pays better than it used to. . ."

I post this as a caution to check out other people's suggested book
lists, especially when they are by such way-out conspiracy theorists
like David Icke and the others I have mentioned in other posts here.
As someone pointed out, "buyer beware!"

Mish

Hi Mish,

Very interesting post... once again I'll have to check out some of
the sites you have listed.

As far as Icke goes... if a famous person would say that he or she
believed that Dubya (G.W.) was a snake... would that be proof that
he was a reptilian?

I've noticed that Betty and Mario over on Ford's HCS are big David
Icke fans. Doesn't Ford ever check out these people or the sites
that B&M endorse? Is there no sense of responsibility on Ford's part?

On another note... I've heard Betty H. make comments about believing
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were true. So, I guess she
bought into the David Icke stuff. I remember that this story was on
the History Channel and it was pointed out there how Henry Ford had
been duped.

I found an interesting book by another Hawkins. This book is
titled, "Reality and Subjectivity" by David R. Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D.
It's rather a slow read and somewhat tedious, but very interesting
just the same.

Prometheus
p.s. Currently I am reviewing some Klemp/Twitchell/Marman
information from the Eckankar website. I'll have to give my views on
the spin and obmissions later.







--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
<mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
> David Icke is a former British soccer player and sports announcer
> who
> began his new career as a conspiracy theorist in the early 1990's.
> He
> was born in 1952 in Leicester, England. To date, he has written
and
> published around 30 books and goes on lecture tours. His Internet
> site
> has a lot of activity and interest. Of course, he is controversial
> and
> there is argument about whether what he theorizes has merit or if
he
> is just a plain "nut" case.
>
> Icke believes the origin of the Illuminati is extraterrestrial--
his
> proof: He is "contacted regularly with messages from beyond by
alien
> lizards." (Skeptic.com) His book, "The Biggest Secret: The Book
That
> Will Change the World," written and published in 1999, discusses
his
> belief that "the planet was being run by a New World Order
> controlled
> by a race of reptilian humanoids called the 'Babylonian
> Brotherhood.'"
> (encyclopedia.lockergnome.com)He believes that many prominent
people
> and "practically every world leader, including Queen Elizabeth and
> several of our U.S. presidents are either reptilian or work for
the
> reptiles. He bases, in part, this belief in statements he claims
> made
> my the late Princess Diana when she referred to the British royal
> family as being lizards, and also from Cathy O'Brian in
> TRANCEformation of America when she claims that George Bush, Sr.
was
> an alien reptile. O'Brian claims that Bush is a paedophile and
> serial
> killer, etc. She says she saw Bush transform "like chameleon into
a
> reptile." Icke says he knows other people who have seen this too.
In
> my previous post, I said that many people dismiss the
> Phillips/O'Brian's story about Mind Control because they offer no
> proof to substantiate what they claim. My question concerning the
> validity of Icke's conspiracy theories is this for one: why does
he
> readily accept what is written in "TRANCEformation of America"
when
> Phillips and O'Brian do not come forth with their evidence?
> Supposedly
> O'Brian's back is a mass of scars from the torture inflicted on
her--
> yet she does not show her scars. That would be simple enough for
> beginning proof of their allegations and story.
>
> Icke was a former member of The Green Party, but they have
dismissed
> association with him since he began his book writings on the
> Illuminati. I also read where he was a member of the British Neo-
> Nazis. There is criticism that he is anti-Semitic in his views.
This
> stems in part from his endorsement of "The Protocols of the Elders
> of Zion." The "Protocols" are forged documents that caught the
> attention of Henry Ford who had 4 volumes of books on the subject
> printed in both English and German and distributed in Europe.
Later,
> when Ford discovered the information was false, Hitler was already
> using the book as a tool to rid Europe of the Jews. Well, no
wonder,
> there is argument about Icke being anti-Semitic!
>
> From Disinformation.com: "Icke lays out a conspiriology 'grand
> narrative' that involves every major conspiracy theory and occult
> society that ever existed, an alternative view of history which
Icke
> contends has been kept from the majority of the human race. . .
>
> Read as fictional metapho, Icke's books are a paranoid roller-
> coaster
> ride through Humanity's eternal struggle to consciously evolve
from
> primitive and violent deep-brain subsystem to whole-Earth
> macro-views.
> But unfortunately many readers are confusing the map with the
> territory, resulting in the 'information overload' that
semiotician
> Umberto Eco wryly warned about in his masterful postmodern
> novel 'Foucault's Pendulum' (Picador, 1990) . . .
>
> According to a scathing review of "The Biggest Secret' by the late
> Jim
> Keith, Icke lacks the finely honed analytical skills required to
> discrimniate between credible and delusional sources." (i.e.
> Phillips
> and O'Brian for one)
>
> At one time, I was briefly interested in reading a couple of
Icke's
> books, but when I did some researching, some of which I am sharing
> here, I backed away from spending my time and money on him. I was
> criticized for not being "open." : ) I took a brief look this
> morning
> at some of his books that are for sale on Amazon.com. I notice
that
> the prices have dropped from their original $30.00 (no discount) to
> about
> 30% off. Well, that is more appealing, but I still view his writing
> as
> a waste of time--MPO. What I also noticed was a lack of editorial
> book
> reviews by Amazon, even though there are several posted by readers
> of
> Icke's books. I thought that was odd. I'm not sure if that means
> anything, but it seems no one at Amazon has taken the time to
review
> the books, and perhaps have not read them????
>
> I will list some of the internet sites I visited in researching
> David
> Icke in case you are interested in delving more. Of course, just
> googling pulls up a lot of pros and cons. I admit that my
> perspective
> is negative, even though, the general premise of conspiracies I do
> not
> disagree with. I recognize that conspiracies do take place on both
> large and small scale events. They are always happening, from the
> beginning of time. I question though the validity of the
> Illuminati/Power Elite theories in that it is so broad-ranged and
> powerful. I can't believe either that most prominent people are
> members of this secret society or puppets being pulled by strings.
> Well, enough of that--my personal opinions!
>
> http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id330/pg1/
>
> http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles/bsecret.html
>
> http://www.rightwingnews.com/crackpots/reptile.php
>
> http://www.encyclopeida.lockergnome.com/s/b/David_Icke
>
> http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000022389/
>
> http://www.pubiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm
>
> http://www.masonicinfo.com/icke.htm
>
> I can't resist a final quote from the Right Wing News
entitled "The
> Greys Are Mutants From Atlantis Who Bred With Lizards And Survived
> Earths Cataclysms" by John Hawkins:
>
> "While perusing various conspiracy sites to get material for
ACPOTI
> (Anyone can post on the internet), I've run across various
> references
> to a guy named David Icke. After doing a little checking around, I
> found that his web page is quite popular. According to Alexa.com,
> it's
> the 23,170th most popular page on the internet which is fairly
> impressive.
>
> However--how shall I put this--David Icke is howling at the moon,
> gibbering in a straight jacket, mad as a hatter, goofy as a pet
> racoon
> INSANE! He actually believes that there are reptile people running
> the
> planet--it just doesn't get much crazier than that. Yet his page
is
> pulling traffic, he's selling books, and he's even on a speaking
> tour.
> Apparently, being out of your mind pays better than it used
to. . ."
>
> I post this as a caution to check out other people's suggested
book
> lists, especially when they are by such way-out conspiracy
theorists
> like David Icke and the others I have mentioned in other posts
here.
> As someone pointed out, "buyer beware!"
>
> Mish

"Reptilian", and so on, come from this  http
://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-
brains.html  . The experiences...  outpicturings, manifestations,
inner experiences or a
person's choice of behavior, come from within ourselves. We do it.
Based on this

Hi:
       What I mean, is these things aren't coming from outer space. We're (in
effect)
"haunting" ourselves with outpicturings and manifestations of our own fears,
paranoias,
and hysterias. And I'm going to try the link one more time to see if it comes up
(this time)
as a link.



                                               
http://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-brains.html



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh" <lgrif@m...> wrote:
>       "Reptilian", and so on, come from this  http
> ://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-
> brains.html  . The experiences...  outpicturings, manifestations,
> inner experiences or a
> person's choice of behavior, come from within ourselves. We do it.
> Based on this

Hi Leigh,

I looked at the link, and wasn't too impressed with their
credentials or the explanination of the four brains. Neither am I
surprised to see another organization looking to make a buck. Did
you see the cost of those feel-good workshops! Actually, I saw
plenty of these groups even before Eckankar and they all have their
own gimmick to pull people in... just like P.T

One reason for Klemp moving the Eckankar headquarters out of
California was too much of this sort of influence. Of course, the
other reason is that Minnesota (unlike California) has a privacy law
for Non-profit organizations so that their finances are not public
record and available for scruntiny.

Prometheus



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
> Hi:
>       What I mean, is these things aren't coming from outer space.
We're (in effect)
> "haunting" ourselves with outpicturings and manifestations of our
own fears, paranoias,
> and hysterias. And I'm going to try the link one more time to see
if it comes up (this time)
> as a link.
>
>
>
>
http://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-brains.html
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
> >       "Reptilian", and so on, come from this  http
> > ://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-
> > brains.html  . The experiences...  outpicturings, manifestations,
> > inner experiences or a
> > person's choice of behavior, come from within ourselves. We do
it.
> > Based on this

Hi Prometheus:
                              Yeah, I thought about that, using that
link. Even if I had the money and
time to travel for workshops like those I wouldn't. So... right
message, wrong messenger.
My point is as to how what I was talking about are outpicturings and
so on of our own, not
coming from "out there" but from within. Individually, and
particularly collectively. I'm
sorry you don't like the explanation of the four "brains". The
enteric nervous system
(somatic "brain", the one in the gut), the reptilian brain (brainstem
and associated systems,
limbic (mammalian) brain, and neocortex in its recognized "sections"
(anterior and
posterior lobes, midbrain, and temporal lobes) are recognized by
boilogy, science and
medicine. I can remember some of it from studying Anthropology 101
way back when.
And there's some general recognition of correspondence between
biology and
psychology... how we respond to these systems we're walking around
with/in, whether
we're aware of them as part of our actual physical makeup at the
roots, as cause, or not.
I'll put in some other links. Some good, some not so good. But which
give a short
illustration of what I mean. The site The Brain from Top to Bottom is
particularly good and
fairly extensive. If the link doesn't work you "Google' or "Yahoo!"
it, get it in a search.

http://www.thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/d/d_05/d_05_cr
/d_05_cr_her/d_05_cr_her.

htmhttp://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:L59EbghU7S
UJ:vanat.cvm.umn.edu/
NeuroLectPDFs/LectCerebralCortex.pdf+six+layers+of+the+neocortex&hl=en

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-13.htm






--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
> Hi Leigh,
>
> I looked at the link, and wasn't too impressed with their
> credentials or the explanination of the four brains. Neither am I
> surprised to see another organization looking to make a buck. Did
> you see the cost of those feel-good workshops! Actually, I saw
> plenty of these groups even before Eckankar and they all have their
> own gimmick to pull people in... just like P.T
>
> One reason for Klemp moving the Eckankar headquarters out of
> California was too much of this sort of influence. Of course, the
> other reason is that Minnesota (unlike California) has a privacy
law
> for Non-profit organizations so that their finances are not public
> record and available for scruntiny.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > Hi:
> >       What I mean, is these things aren't coming from outer
space.
> We're (in effect)
> > "haunting" ourselves with outpicturings and manifestations of our
> own fears, paranoias,
> > and hysterias. And I'm going to try the link one more time to see
> if it comes up (this time)
> > as a link.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-brains.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > >       "Reptilian", and so on, come from this  http
> > > ://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-
> > > brains.html  . The experiences...  outpicturings,
manifestations,
> > > inner experiences or a
> > > person's choice of behavior, come from within ourselves. We do
> it.
> > > Based on this

Hi Leigh,

Yes, I once took a course on biopsychology and still have my book!
There are many more areas of the brain than what have been listed,
but it really isn't necessary to go in to such detail. However, let
me give a quote that supports the scientific research and
understanding of the brain as a whole (including the brain stem).
I'm still not certain if one can narrow it down (simplify it) to
a "four" brain approach, but maybe this approach helps to visualize
and give a glimpse of the process with an understandable explanation
for the lay person.

"Conclusion... you have been confronted by two indisputable facts of
life: (1) You and I and all other living animals are the cumulative
products of 600 million years of adaptation; (2) We humans are
related to all other animal species--in some cases, more closely
than we like to admit. Pondering the implications of these truths
can be humbling, but that is not why I introduced them here. I
introduced them because their pervasive influence on
biopsychological research. Biopsychologists often study behavior and
neural mechanisms by focusing on adaptiveness and the environmental
pressures that led to their evolution--this is called the FUNCTIONAL
APPROACH. And biopsychologists often try to learn about the
behaviors and neural mechanisms of one species, usually humans, by
studying the behaviors and neural mechanisms of related species--
this is called the COMPARATIVE APPROACH."

By the way, only one of the links came up for me. It was from the
Common Dreams News Center and the topic: "Cheney Speaks to the
Reptile Brain." I enjoyed the article because of the detailed
explanations it gave of what are and how the "THREE" brains worked
(versus FOUR), and I also liked the examples the article gave by
using Cheney's three-brain trickery (triple-speak?).

On another note: Did you hear about the person who was a dyslexic,
an agnostic, and an insomniac--he stays awake every night wondering
if there really is a doG.

Prometheus



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
<lgrif@m...> wrote:
> Hi Prometheus:
>                              Yeah, I thought about that, using that
> link. Even if I had the money and
> time to travel for workshops like those I wouldn't. So... right
> message, wrong messenger.
> My point is as to how what I was talking about are outpicturings
and
> so on of our own, not
> coming from "out there" but from within. Individually, and
> particularly collectively. I'm
> sorry you don't like the explanation of the four "brains". The
> enteric nervous system
> (somatic "brain", the one in the gut), the reptilian brain
(brainstem
> and associated systems,
> limbic (mammalian) brain, and neocortex in its
recognized "sections"
> (anterior and
> posterior lobes, midbrain, and temporal lobes) are recognized by
> boilogy, science and
> medicine. I can remember some of it from studying Anthropology 101
> way back when.
> And there's some general recognition of correspondence between
> biology and
> psychology... how we respond to these systems we're walking around
> with/in, whether
> we're aware of them as part of our actual physical makeup at the
> roots, as cause, or not.
> I'll put in some other links. Some good, some not so good. But
which
> give a short
> illustration of what I mean. The site The Brain from Top to Bottom
is
> particularly good and
> fairly extensive. If the link doesn't work you "Google' or "Yahoo!"
> it, get it in a search.
>
> http://www.thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/d/d_05/d_05_cr
> /d_05_cr_her/d_05_cr_her.
>
> htmhttp://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:L59EbghU7S
> UJ:vanat.cvm.umn.edu/
>
NeuroLectPDFs/LectCerebralCortex.pdf+six+layers+of+the+neocortex&hl=e
n
>
> http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-13.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In
EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Leigh,
> >
> > I looked at the link, and wasn't too impressed with their
> > credentials or the explanination of the four brains. Neither am
I
> > surprised to see another organization looking to make a buck.
Did
> > you see the cost of those feel-good workshops! Actually, I saw
> > plenty of these groups even before Eckankar and they all have
their
> > own gimmick to pull people in... just like P.T
> >
> > One reason for Klemp moving the Eckankar headquarters out of
> > California was too much of this sort of influence. Of course,
the
> > other reason is that Minnesota (unlike California) has a privacy
> law
> > for Non-profit organizations so that their finances are not
public
> > record and available for scruntiny.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> > <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > > Hi:
> > >       What I mean, is these things aren't coming from outer
> space.
> > We're (in effect)
> > > "haunting" ourselves with outpicturings and manifestations of
our
> > own fears, paranoias,
> > > and hysterias. And I'm going to try the link one more time to
see
> > if it comes up (this time)
> > > as a link.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-brains.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> > <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > > >       "Reptilian", and so on, come from this  http
> > > > ://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-
> > > > brains.html  . The experiences...  outpicturings,
> manifestations,
> > > > inner experiences or a
> > > > person's choice of behavior, come from within ourselves. We
do
> > it.
> > > > Based on this

Hi:
     Yeah, the enteric nervous system is an orphan. No one wants to
claim it. Yet we reckon
four kinds of karma (daily, fate, reserve, primal), four centers in
tantric meditation, four
dimensions along the Hara Line, not to mention mind realization, self
realization, spiritual
realization, God realization, also consciousness, awareness, purpose,
freedom, and much,
much more based on our relationsip to what? The reptilian, mammalian,
and neocortical
systems alone? But really, Prometheus, I feel like Sisyphus about
this. This is not a thread I
wanted to start. I just wanted to say I think we outpicture and
manifest all the things
people are going on about including our inner experiences in the case
of those folks
who've experienced those all their lives.


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
> Hi Leigh,
>
> Yes, I once took a course on biopsychology and still have my book!
> There are many more areas of the brain than what have been listed,
> but it really isn't necessary to go in to such detail. However, let
> me give a quote that supports the scientific research and
> understanding of the brain as a whole (including the brain stem).
> I'm still not certain if one can narrow it down (simplify it) to
> a "four" brain approach, but maybe this approach helps to visualize
> and give a glimpse of the process with an understandable
explanation
> for the lay person.
>
> "Conclusion... you have been confronted by two indisputable facts
of
> life: (1) You and I and all other living animals are the cumulative
> products of 600 million years of adaptation; (2) We humans are
> related to all other animal species--in some cases, more closely
> than we like to admit. Pondering the implications of these truths
> can be humbling, but that is not why I introduced them here. I
> introduced them because their pervasive influence on
> biopsychological research. Biopsychologists often study behavior
and
> neural mechanisms by focusing on adaptiveness and the environmental
> pressures that led to their evolution--this is called the
FUNCTIONAL
> APPROACH. And biopsychologists often try to learn about the
> behaviors and neural mechanisms of one species, usually humans, by
> studying the behaviors and neural mechanisms of related species--
> this is called the COMPARATIVE APPROACH."
>
> By the way, only one of the links came up for me. It was from the
> Common Dreams News Center and the topic: "Cheney Speaks to the
> Reptile Brain." I enjoyed the article because of the detailed
> explanations it gave of what are and how the "THREE" brains worked
> (versus FOUR), and I also liked the examples the article gave by
> using Cheney's three-brain trickery (triple-speak?).
>
> On another note: Did you hear about the person who was a dyslexic,
> an agnostic, and an insomniac--he stays awake every night wondering
> if there really is a doG.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > Hi Prometheus:
> >                              Yeah, I thought about that, using
that
> > link. Even if I had the money and
> > time to travel for workshops like those I wouldn't. So... right
> > message, wrong messenger.
> > My point is as to how what I was talking about are outpicturings
> and
> > so on of our own, not
> > coming from "out there" but from within. Individually, and
> > particularly collectively. I'm
> > sorry you don't like the explanation of the four "brains". The
> > enteric nervous system
> > (somatic "brain", the one in the gut), the reptilian brain
> (brainstem
> > and associated systems,
> > limbic (mammalian) brain, and neocortex in its
> recognized "sections"
> > (anterior and
> > posterior lobes, midbrain, and temporal lobes) are recognized by
> > boilogy, science and
> > medicine. I can remember some of it from studying Anthropology 101
> > way back when.
> > And there's some general recognition of correspondence between
> > biology and
> > psychology... how we respond to these systems we're walking around
> > with/in, whether
> > we're aware of them as part of our actual physical makeup at the
> > roots, as cause, or not.
> > I'll put in some other links. Some good, some not so good. But
> which
> > give a short
> > illustration of what I mean. The site The Brain from Top to
Bottom
> is
> > particularly good and
> > fairly extensive. If the link doesn't work you "Google' or
"Yahoo!"
> > it, get it in a search.
> >
> > http://www.thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/d/d_05/d_05_cr
> > /d_05_cr_her/d_05_cr_her.
> >
> > htmhttp://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:L59EbghU7S
> > UJ:vanat.cvm.umn.edu/
> >
> NeuroLectPDFs/LectCerebralCortex.pdf+six+layers+
of+the+neocortex&hl=e
> n
> >
> > http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-13.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In
> EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi Leigh,
> > >
> > > I looked at the link, and wasn't too impressed with their
> > > credentials or the explanination of the four brains. Neither am
> I
> > > surprised to see another organization looking to make a buck.
> Did
> > > you see the cost of those feel-good workshops! Actually, I saw
> > > plenty of these groups even before Eckankar and they all have
> their
> > > own gimmick to pull people in... just like P.T
> > >
> > > One reason for Klemp moving the Eckankar headquarters out of
> > > California was too much of this sort of influence. Of course,
> the
> > > other reason is that Minnesota (unlike California) has a privacy
> > law
> > > for Non-profit organizations so that their finances are not
> public
> > > record and available for scruntiny.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> > > <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > > > Hi:
> > > >       What I mean, is these things aren't coming from outer
> > space.
> > > We're (in effect)
> > > > "haunting" ourselves with outpicturings and manifestations of
> our
> > > own fears, paranoias,
> > > > and hysterias. And I'm going to try the link one more time to
> see
> > > if it comes up (this time)
> > > > as a link.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > http://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-brains.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "l2eigh"
> > > <lgrif@m...> wrote:
> > > > >       "Reptilian", and so on, come from this  http
> > > > > ://www.seishindo.org/articles/four-
> > > > > brains.html  . The experiences...  outpicturings,
> > manifestations,
> > > > > inner experiences or a
> > > > > person's choice of behavior, come from within ourselves. We
> do
> > > it.
> > > > > Based on this

Hi, All and Thanks, Prometheus!

The main reason I have posted these messages is to suggest the
responsibility that we each have in discerning and checking out
various information sources. I would venture that we all know better
than to believe everything we hear on TV or obtain from other mass
media sources; however, just because alternative news/information
sources are marching to a different drum beat, it doesn't mean that
this information is better or more truthful.

Cassiopaea, TRANCEformaton of America, David Icke and others are not
providing truth--they are only presenting lies and half-truths along
with personal agendas that are masqueraded as a social and political
truth. They are distractions/tests.

Higher spiritual truth can only be found when ego is set aside and
the inner and outer worlds can be viewed through the clear vision of
Soul/God awareness.

For me and many of us, the quest or journey for Higher Truth is in
and of itself the goal. But then again, I'm not telling any of you
out there anything new. : )

Mish





--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
> Hi Mish,
>
> Very interesting post... once again I'll have to check out some of
> the sites you have listed.
>
> As far as Icke goes... if a famous person would say that he or
she
> believed that Dubya (G.W.) was a snake... would that be proof that
> he was a reptilian?
>
> I've noticed that Betty and Mario over on Ford's HCS are big David
> Icke fans. Doesn't Ford ever check out these people or the sites
> that B&M endorse? Is there no sense of responsibility on Ford's
part?
>
> On another note... I've heard Betty H. make comments about
believing
> The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were true. So, I guess she
> bought into the David Icke stuff. I remember that this story was
on
> the History Channel and it was pointed out there how Henry Ford
had
> been duped.
>
> I found an interesting book by another Hawkins. This book is
> titled, "Reality and Subjectivity" by David R. Hawkins, M.D.,
Ph.D.
> It's rather a slow read and somewhat tedious, but very interesting
> just the same.
>
> Prometheus
> p.s. Currently I am reviewing some Klemp/Twitchell/Marman
> information from the Eckankar website. I'll have to give my views
on
> the spin and obmissions later.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
> <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
> > David Icke is a former British soccer player and sports
announcer
> > who
> > began his new career as a conspiracy theorist in the early
1990's.
> > He
> > was born in 1952 in Leicester, England. To date, he has written
> and
> > published around 30 books and goes on lecture tours. His Internet
> > site
> > has a lot of activity and interest. Of course, he is
controversial
> > and
> > there is argument about whether what he theorizes has merit or
if
> he
> > is just a plain "nut" case.
> >
> > Icke believes the origin of the Illuminati is extraterrestrial--
> his
> > proof: He is "contacted regularly with messages from beyond by
> alien
> > lizards." (Skeptic.com) His book, "The Biggest Secret: The Book
> That
> > Will Change the World," written and published in 1999, discusses
> his
> > belief that "the planet was being run by a New World Order
> > controlled
> > by a race of reptilian humanoids called the 'Babylonian
> > Brotherhood.'"
> > (encyclopedia.lockergnome.com)He believes that many prominent
> people
> > and "practically every world leader, including Queen Elizabeth
and
> > several of our U.S. presidents are either reptilian or work for
> the
> > reptiles. He bases, in part, this belief in statements he claims
> > made
> > my the late Princess Diana when she referred to the British
royal
> > family as being lizards, and also from Cathy O'Brian in
> > TRANCEformation of America when she claims that George Bush, Sr.
> was
> > an alien reptile. O'Brian claims that Bush is a paedophile and
> > serial
> > killer, etc. She says she saw Bush transform "like chameleon
into
> a
> > reptile." Icke says he knows other people who have seen this
too.
> In
> > my previous post, I said that many people dismiss the
> > Phillips/O'Brian's story about Mind Control because they offer
no
> > proof to substantiate what they claim. My question concerning
the
> > validity of Icke's conspiracy theories is this for one: why does
> he
> > readily accept what is written in "TRANCEformation of America"
> when
> > Phillips and O'Brian do not come forth with their evidence?
> > Supposedly
> > O'Brian's back is a mass of scars from the torture inflicted on
> her--
> > yet she does not show her scars. That would be simple enough for
> > beginning proof of their allegations and story.
> >
> > Icke was a former member of The Green Party, but they have
> dismissed
> > association with him since he began his book writings on the
> > Illuminati. I also read where he was a member of the British Neo-
> > Nazis. There is criticism that he is anti-Semitic in his views.
> This
> > stems in part from his endorsement of "The Protocols of the
Elders
> > of Zion." The "Protocols" are forged documents that caught the
> > attention of Henry Ford who had 4 volumes of books on the
subject
> > printed in both English and German and distributed in Europe.
> Later,
> > when Ford discovered the information was false, Hitler was
already
> > using the book as a tool to rid Europe of the Jews. Well, no
> wonder,
> > there is argument about Icke being anti-Semitic!
> >
> > From Disinformation.com: "Icke lays out a conspiriology 'grand
> > narrative' that involves every major conspiracy theory and
occult
> > society that ever existed, an alternative view of history which
> Icke
> > contends has been kept from the majority of the human race. . .
> >
> > Read as fictional metapho, Icke's books are a paranoid roller-
> > coaster
> > ride through Humanity's eternal struggle to consciously evolve
> from
> > primitive and violent deep-brain subsystem to whole-Earth
> > macro-views.
> > But unfortunately many readers are confusing the map with the
> > territory, resulting in the 'information overload' that
> semiotician
> > Umberto Eco wryly warned about in his masterful postmodern
> > novel 'Foucault's Pendulum' (Picador, 1990) . . .
> >
> > According to a scathing review of "The Biggest Secret' by the
late
> > Jim
> > Keith, Icke lacks the finely honed analytical skills required to
> > discrimniate between credible and delusional sources." (i.e.
> > Phillips
> > and O'Brian for one)
> >
> > At one time, I was briefly interested in reading a couple of
> Icke's
> > books, but when I did some researching, some of which I am
sharing
> > here, I backed away from spending my time and money on him. I
was
> > criticized for not being "open." : ) I took a brief look this
> > morning
> > at some of his books that are for sale on Amazon.com. I notice
> that
> > the prices have dropped from their original $30.00 (no discount)
to
> > about
> > 30% off. Well, that is more appealing, but I still view his
writing
> > as
> > a waste of time--MPO. What I also noticed was a lack of editorial
> > book
> > reviews by Amazon, even though there are several posted by
readers
> > of
> > Icke's books. I thought that was odd. I'm not sure if that means
> > anything, but it seems no one at Amazon has taken the time to
> review
> > the books, and perhaps have not read them????
> >
> > I will list some of the internet sites I visited in researching
> > David
> > Icke in case you are interested in delving more. Of course, just
> > googling pulls up a lot of pros and cons. I admit that my
> > perspective
> > is negative, even though, the general premise of conspiracies I
do
> > not
> > disagree with. I recognize that conspiracies do take place on
both
> > large and small scale events. They are always happening, from
the
> > beginning of time. I question though the validity of the
> > Illuminati/Power Elite theories in that it is so broad-ranged
and
> > powerful. I can't believe either that most prominent people are
> > members of this secret society or puppets being pulled by
strings.
> > Well, enough of that--my personal opinions!
> >
> > http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id330/pg1/
> >
> > http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles/bsecret.html
> >
> > http://www.rightwingnews.com/crackpots/reptile.php
> >
> > http://www.encyclopeida.lockergnome.com/s/b/David_Icke
> >
> > http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000022389/
> >
> > http://www.pubiceye.org/Icke/IckeBackgrounder.htm
> >
> > http://www.masonicinfo.com/icke.htm
> >
> > I can't resist a final quote from the Right Wing News
> entitled "The
> > Greys Are Mutants From Atlantis Who Bred With Lizards And
Survived
> > Earths Cataclysms" by John Hawkins:
> >
> > "While perusing various conspiracy sites to get material for
> ACPOTI
> > (Anyone can post on the internet), I've run across various
> > references
> > to a guy named David Icke. After doing a little checking around,
I
> > found that his web page is quite popular. According to Alexa.com,
> > it's
> > the 23,170th most popular page on the internet which is fairly
> > impressive.
> >
> > However--how shall I put this--David Icke is howling at the
moon,
> > gibbering in a straight jacket, mad as a hatter, goofy as a pet
> > racoon
> > INSANE! He actually believes that there are reptile people
running
> > the
> > planet--it just doesn't get much crazier than that. Yet his page
> is
> > pulling traffic, he's selling books, and he's even on a speaking
> > tour.
> > Apparently, being out of your mind pays better than it used
> to. . ."
> >
> > I post this as a caution to check out other people's suggested
> book
> > lists, especially when they are by such way-out conspiracy
> theorists
> > like David Icke and the others I have mentioned in other posts
> here.
> > As someone pointed out, "buyer beware!"
> >
> > Mish

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