As long as they're not wearing "big muddy boots" :)

-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Aug 6, 2011 1:52 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Hi Guys

 
Hello Diane and All,
It sounds like Paul
was a control freak
and trying to manipulate
you by saying you
shouldn't wear boots.

Paul was stuck in the
past and was looking
at old symbols and
not fashion. Cowboy
boots, too, don't have
a militaristic "vibe"
or looks. The problem
was in the eye of the
beholder, PT, and his
paranoid vibe from
being an old conservative
country bumpkin from
Kentucky. Was that a
turn off for many people?

Yes, today there is no
"real" Freedom in Eckankar.
Guidelines need to be
followed and the hierarchy
enforces this much of
the time, but many H.I.s
are passive/aggressive
toward these Guidelines.
No free lunch or initiation
either! EK Initiations are
directly related to the
annual paid membership,
otherwise, they are lost
on the Physical Plane!

Prometheus

dianastanley wrote:

I got in Eckankar in 1971,
most of us young people
were still dressing like
hippies.

Paul tried to get us to
tone it down and not
make a scene with the
way we dressed.

Of course no one listened
to him. There was quite
an age difference between
us. He definatly wanted
up to stop wearing boots
as he said they gave off
a military vibe. My were
leather with finge on top
so it didn't look military
to me so I kept them.

compared to today we
had a lot of freedom then.
I road with Rodger Dubin
and some other guys. He
had Sugmad Sailers painted
on his beatup folkswagon
van. We sure had a lot of
fun.

Diana STanley

A number of definitions for culture exist. One of them being:

noun - culture -- ((biology) the growing of microorganisms in a nutrient medium
(such as gelatin or agar); "the culture of cells in a Petri dish")

For relations between cult and culture go here.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=cult&searchmode=none

In an article by Paul Twitchell called: The Square Peg he wrote about something
called a Cliff Hanger. He wrote (quote):

This zany character is called the the vanguard of a new religion, entitled
"Eckankar" ... . (end quote).

In the same article - last paragraph - Paul wrote:

"The Cliff Hanger may be the favorite of the Gods, and it's certain he is the
lonely hero of these times, but as I have said, it is a one man cult, with
myself as founder, president and disciple."

This was probably one of the earliest public mentions of "Eckankar". I believe
the year was 1963.

In all the time since then, What has grown from "Eckankar"?

Well, I have witnessed a corporation and religion where the founder was
allegedly "poisoned" in 1970 and died about a year later without naming a
successor. His successor (1971), Darwin Gross, named by Paul Twitchell's widow
(who later - for a time - became his wife) was hard pressed to use trademarked
Eckankar terms/words after "dismissal". When Darwin Gross died (2008) his works
became part of a "Trust" and he didn't appear to name a successor either.
However, one who claimed to be successor, he too was hard pressed to use
trademarked terms/words by (I think it was) the Darwin Gross trust, whatever. By
Eckankar, I believe there was something about the use of Paul Twitchell's
picture. Dhunami wasn't allowed to use his picture on their website? (Having a
book dictated by Paul Twitchell was OK, I guess. Don't use his picture was my
impression.) Of course this is only a snippet about what has grown from
"Eckankar" since its first public mention by Paul Twitchell.

Today I recognized something disturbing with regard to various groups and
entities having "grown" from Eckankar. I recognized so many forms of "spinn-off
cultures", so to speak, how their groups, organizations and corporations
(including lawyers) speak to one another. Not all, but some of these, at least.

I have not mentioned what appears to be the most disturbing thing. What has to
do with a long, long line of "religious cultures" growing out of, spinning off
from one another and not always getting along.

Somebody - an intelligent person - might ask the question: "How can I research
these cultures & isolate the historical truths about origins for each one?" The
funny thing is, I have! With regard to Eckankar, at least.

A lot of times the greatest detraction on this path is labeled "The Mind".
Either that, or Kal, the Devil, etc. The path of researching religious history,
dogma, etc. and those who walk it are sometimes called something worse than
Cliff Hanger, or Square Peg. Wars have been fought and suits filed over people
seeking and then speaking the truth with regard to "religious culture" and its
history. Why is this called a no-no when it really amounts to a know-know?

I wonder how much room is left for the truth in religious cultures anymore and
how much will be allowed. Amid all the religious wars and persecutions (etc.) I
read about in the newspapers daily, there does appear at least a fraction of
people seeking answers and solutions. I wonder how much room will there be for
individuals to speak the truth that will set them free? from the power of
corporations afforded the "rights of individuals" too? Guess that depends on the
definition of individual.

Quoting:

George Orwell's 1984 is the story of a future society where individualism has
been eliminated, where propaganda is used to control the masses, and where
perpetual war is being waged to maintain the "peace." It's a world where false
is true and wrong is right, where history is constantly being rewritten to
support whatever the regime is currently doing - and where Big Brother watches
your every move. [....]

http://www.strike-the-root.com/52/macgregor/macgregor6.html

It looks like posting over at alt.religion.eckankar has come to a halt.
Also, at alt.eckankar.

I noticed within the past couple weeks that sent messages were taking days to
post. It has now been about three, or more, days since my last sent messages and
still no sign of them showing up.

I'm wondering if this is a google problem, or a problem only with the Eckankar
groups.

In the September 2011 EK Mystic
World, "The Wisdom Notes," Klemp
attempts to make a case, with the
help of a couple of psychological
studies that show brain patterns
change due to Internet usage. This
change, supposedly, causes a negative
effect upon one's ability to concentrate
compared to reading a book. Klemp
preaches that (his) paper books are,
therefore, better than reading the
same text from even Kindles or i-Pads!

HK, also, states that young people
have become obsessive about texting
and that this is a hinderance to spiritual
growth. Of course Klemp (a recluse) has
overlooked the fact that young people,
even introverts, are communicating
more with their peers (from all around
the world) and are being more sociable,
while learning and developing new brain
patterns compatible for the computer
age.

However, I find a few things interesting
with Klemp's Wisdom Notes. First, he still
has that younger looking picture of himself
on the page. What's with that? Is Harry
vain and obsessed with his past image?
Klemp needs to live in the reality of Now
versus the past!

Also, in this article, Klemp starts off
three sentences with "But." In a past
article in a H.I. Letter HK stated that
Eckists should Not use "But!" He said
it was "a nail in the coffin of invention"
and some other crap. He even quoted Kant
in order to make his point. So, it seems,
Klemp's as much of a hypocrite as other
religious leaders. Do as I say, not as I do!
Interesting, too, that HK uses the EK "Principle
of the Threes" to lead off three sentences
with "BUT" when he described its usage
in negative terms. Is this Black Magic he's
using? Why would he use a negative
word that changes or reverses the meaning
of a sentence Three Times? Hmmmmm.

And, yes, Klemp revisits the EMF/EMR
harm done by electronic devices... so
stay away from those cell phones and
computers. What's even funnier with this
attempt to manipulate Eckists is that,
next, Klemp gives an Internet address
for a book that can explain the dangers
the Internet can cause to the brain! LOL!
What a dumb ass! I say this because he
can't even see the hypocrisy staring
him in the face.

In conclusion Klemp gives a warning
that these "electronic tools" may also
alter and weaken one's relationship
with the Mahanta (his alter ego).
So watch out for the evils of Googling,
especially, if you Google "Eckankar
Survivors Anonymous!"

BTW- Do you think that Klemp is
a Tea Bagger? I'm thinking that the
way he distorts and manipulates the
truth that he has to be a Tea Bagger!

Prometheus

A Repost of James Davis (from Ford Johnson's
"Truth Seeker" site) that explains why he left
Eckankar:

Rosetta Stone of God author J. Davis Responds to Confessions

From: James Davis
Being the author of a book on the Mahanta titled THE ROSETTA
STONE OF GOD, I would like to add my voice to those who have
chosen to leave Eckankar. I quietly left Eckankar several years ago,
having come to many of the same conclusions Ford arrived at in
his own book. At the time I left, I wrote a letter to Harold saying
I would make no announcements about my leaving. But I have since
learned that it is a very "open secret" that I left - not through any
acts of my own, but from various Eckists in who work at the main
office, and a few others. So I now feel it is appropriate to say a few
words about my leaving, and about Ford's book.

During my almost three decades in Eckankar I became increasingly
troubled by what I perceived as the weak integrity within the
teachings and of the leaders. At the same time I struggled against
these impressions because I deeply WANTED Eckankar to be the
ideal teaching I had hoped and dreamed of. I deeply WANTED to
Living Eck Masters to be more than I was witnessing.

I came to the point in the late Nineties where I decided to give
the teachings the fullest and deepest study I could (both on the
Inner and the Outer) in order to settle my doubts once and for all.
I chose to focus on the Mahanta as the theme of my study and
contemplation since this doctrine is the heart and soul of Eckankar.

I spent over a year researching every word ever written or spoken
on the Mahanta that were available to me. I poured through decades
of my personal journals looking for clues from my own experience
to supplement the outer teachings. I inwardly invited the Nine Silent
Ones and the Eck Masters to help with my project. Then I set about
writing the best book I could on all I had found.

The finished manuscript was sent in and quickly got approved
for publication by Harold Klemp. For a few months I was euphoric
and felt I had finally laid to rest my misgivings about the teachings.
But the effect soon wore off for, after all, the issues that gave
rise to the writing were still there - as Ford's book aptly
demonstrates. The issues can't be made to go away by an act of
fervent devotion. Or should I say, they can be made to go away for
awhile, or by denial. But for many people, such avoidance tactics
wear thin after a time.

I realized the whole writing project of THE ROSETTA STONE OF GOD
had been an utter failure in its prime objective of settling my issues.
Whatever value it held for others, it failed for me.

Yet, with the publication of the book came the usual attention
that goes with being an Eckankar author. And in this I discovered
how eager many people are to elevate the spiritual status of those
who are reporting intimate spiritual experiences with masters.
A number of Eckists, including Higher Initiates, either intimated
that I was a candidate for Eck Mastership, or openly made comments
or wrote letters to me to this effect. Some even had "got it on the
inner" that this was the case. Those who know me well and were
privy to some of this, found this elevation amusing enough. But
it became abundantly clear to me how easy a person like Paul,
who could not only write well, but who had a certain charisma
and claimed an abundance of experiences with inner masters,
would sweep followers off their feet.

I have little if any charisma, but I can write a fairly decent book.
This apparently was sufficient for many. The experience of being
on the receiving end of admiring Eckists was a sobering first hand
look from the other end of the scope of my own tendency to elevate
the leaders of Eckankar.

I won't go into the details of the issues I have with the Eckankar
teachings, for most of these issues are addressed in Ford's book.
My conclusions are not the same as Ford's in all cases. For example,
whether people such as Rebazar Tarzs are real or not real hardly
played a part in my decision to leave, whereas Ford categorically
asserts the Vairagi masters are pure fiction. I had decided that,
if men like Paul and Darwin and Harold were truly the best and
brightest candidates that a band of high inner masters would choose
to be the head of their order and be the chosen supreme channel
for God on Earth, than I was not interested in following such an order.

On the other hand, I felt, if there is an order of very high masters
similar to the Vairagi that Paul protrayed, I seriously doubted they
would hitch their wagon to a movement like Eckankar. So the whole
debate about whether some of these masters are real or not is not
a central one for me personally.

There are a few other conclusions I reached that differ a bit
from Ford's, and this is as it should be for anyone thinking for
themselves. But on the whole, my own research and experience
support Ford's conclusions. If you read Ford's book, you will find
a multitude of issues worth carefully thinking over - a number
of which you may never have considered before.

Incidently, Ford has been accused by some critics as being too
mental, of not showing an attitude of love. It would be hard for
anyone to write a book deconstructing Eckankar without seeming
hard-hearted to an Eckankar devotee. How do you call the beloved
founder Paul Twitchell a liar and a fraud and still sound like a Golden
Heart? But there is more to the demonstration of love than sweet
platitudes, warm feelings, and cute stories. Tough-love is real, and
in the spiritual tradition it leads (or pushes) Soul onwards towards
God. I see no love in comforting others with gentle lies, nor in
telling them they will suffer spiritual decline and misery if they
leave the Eckankar club. One of the primary reasons I decided to
leave Eckankar was precisely because the pronouncements of love
made by the leaders was contradicted all too often by their actions
and harsh denouncement of those who disagreed with them, or
those who choose to follow another road, or of other "inferior" paths.

As with many who leave the Eckankar religion, I have felt a certain
amount of loss. Not just the loss of an ideal, but the absence of a
community of friends, and the wonderful sharing that happens at
many Eckankar events. But I have not regretted for a moment the
spiritual implications of leaving. To have stayed, for me, would have
been a rejection of what Eckankar calls The Call of Soul - a call which
urged me to let go of a religion which had served its purpose in my
journey, and had become an impediment to my further growth.

####

Truth Seeker added these comments at the end of James Davis' post:

Thank you for coming forward. There are many who hold on to your
book as the final validation of the mahanta. That is why Harold was
so quick to promote it. I hope that your candor and courage will
encourage others,who are hanging fire and holding on to this last
fabricated vistage of Eckankar doctrine, to also have the courage to
read the book and then act on their inner spiritual guidance. Only
then can the Eckankar spell be broken.

TS

Yes, it could be that Harold
Klemp will announce his wife's
promotion to ECK Master status
at the next EK Worldwide Seminar.
After all, time is running out for
old Harry to make his move and
insure he has a spy at the ESC
office after he retires.

However, here're some comments
from a person who knew Joan Cross
Klemp in a former marriage when
she worked as her husband's
(Bob Cross) assistant at Clemson
University in 1968.
*************************************
Excerpt From: Honk If You Love Voltare:
A Religious Life (66 Felix Academicus)
by Prof. Sterling Eisiminger, at Clemson
University

"I wouldn't call cults a main dish on
the church picnic table, but I did pick
at one dish when a friend disappeared
into the black hole of Eckankar.

When I came to Clemson, I was assigned
to Professor Bob Cross for mentoring.
Bob and I hit it off;  from the start, but
what fascinated me most about Bob was
the relationship he had with his wife.

The two were inseparable. Fortunately,
there were no children, for a Cross child
would have found the competition stiff
for parental love.

At work, they asked for and received one
office with facing desks. At home, they
read science fiction and took long walks
together with their poodle.

Perhaps I missed the warning signs,
but Bob missed them as well, for we
were both stunned when Joan announced,
"Earth is the hell for all planets circling
Alpha Centauri." She, for one, was moving
to California to have her astral shoes
"resouled" as the new editor of the Eckankar
Journal. In her spare time, she and her fellow
Eckankar disciples planned to travel to
various planes of the Sugmad and serve
their Eck master.

In 1997, some twenty years later when
I read of the thirty-nine Heaven's Gate
suicides, I scanned the list of the deceased
fully expecting to find Joan's name among
those tailing the Hale-Bopp comet. Fortunately,
Joan's name was not among the missing.

About the only cult that impresses me
now is the Frisbeeterian, not to be confused
with the Presleyterian, which is interesting
to me only in an academic, pop culture sort
of way. The former faction believes that when
someone dies, the soul goes up on a roof,
and no one can retrieve it. It makes as much
sense as leaving a devoted husband for the
unexplored Sugmad."

When Eckankar's leader, Harold Klemp,
talks about "the Mahanta" he's talking
about himself, but a younger looking
version right? Really, look at his official
picture provided on the Wisdom Notes
page of the EK Mystic World newsletter.
And, this is the official picture that is
to be displayed, according to the Guidelines,
in ECKankar Centers and at official EK
functions. This is the past (Causal Plane)
image that Eckists are to visualize on
the "Inner Planes" when seeking out the
Mahanta (consciousness).

But, don't all Eckists experience this
so-called Mahanta Consciousness
every now and then and more often
with more initiations and via imagination?
Why then does Klemp make it limited
to an individual (himself) and have it
directed towards a past (15 year old)
image of himself?

Klemp wants and needs to be all powerful.
He doesn't want to share and that's why
Higher Initiations are rarer to obtain...
especially the 8th! In reality there should
be 3 12th Initiates, 33 9ths, and 333 8ths!
There would be if there was any other
LEM than selfish and vain Klemp at the
helm.

HOWEVER, a Black Cloud lies over grumpy
old Harold's head and it becomes the Tough
Luck of his dreamy followers. BUT if these
same H.I.s permitted Soul to steer their
route their spiritual Journey and Destination
would be calmer and less delayed. This
is the painful Truth that Eckists don't
want to and can't hear. What would they
have without Eckankar... Soul and Spiritual/
Religious Freedom that's what!

Prometheus

--- On Thu, 8/25/11, butterflymama29 <butterflymama29@...> wrote:

> From: butterflymama29 <butterflymama29@...>
> Subject: Re: just looking for support / understanding ears
> To: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
> Date: Thursday, August 25, 2011, 2:11 PM
>
>
> I was raised by my father as an Eckist but when I left home
> I left Eckankar as well. I started to question some of the
> group's practices such as charging you membership (what the
> hell is up with that?), the fact that you can't become a
> higher initiate unless you keep up with your payments (if
> it's a true religion based on your own personal relationship
> with God what does a base, worldly thing like money have to
> do with it?), and the mantra that Eck is the "only" way. I'm
> a skeptic and tend to question everything and thank God
> (whoever he/she/it may be) for that. Ironically my father is
> the one who taught me this and I just wish he could do the
> same with Eckankar. I'm not saying Eck is bad. By all means
> if it gives you something to believe in and if it's right
> for you, pursue it. But it just doesn't square up for me. My
> dad told me when I left Eck "The Eck is 'caught not taught'
> " and that he didn't think I "was getting it" and that I
> wasn't "ready for it" anyway. Funny how when someone
> questions it this is what they're told. Sorry, Dad just
> using my own brain like ya taught me.... I now consider
> myself to be Agnostic. I know there's some spirit that has
> created all of this but I sure as hell don't claim to know
> what that is and I think that anyone who does should really
> think about what that means. I do have one critique of
> "anti-Eckists". It seems like the exact same allegations
> they level against Eckankar are ones that are also true of
> pretty much any organized religion or cult. Esp.
> Christianity. Good Lord.... "If you don't believe what this
> book says (which all sounds like a big fairy tale anyway)
> you're going to the land of fire and brimstone! If you don't
> accept JC as your personal savior (even if you were a kind,
> loving, basically saint in your life) you're going to burn
> in hell for all eternity." I call bull shit! Bottom line,
> believe what makes you feel good in the core of your being
> and that you can reconcile in your heart of hearts... I will
> get off my soapbox now... Peace.
>
> --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
> "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello the3pucketts,
> > I hesitate to say this
> > but there's something
> > wrong with being an
> > Eckist for 40 years and
> > just being a 4th initiate.
> > He should be at least
> > a 6th initiate! He's not
> > telling you the whole
> > story... he might have
> > been on a long rest
> > period as well. If you
> > aren't paying for that
> > annual membership
> > you can't get initiations.
> >
> > To be a member for
> > almost 40 years and
> > to be only a 4th initiate
> > is unheard of. Well, I
> > did know another Eckist
> > who was a 4th for 30
> > years but that was his
> > fault I was told. He stopped
> > volunteering, teaching
> > Satsangs, doing intros,
> > and would go to the
> > "inner" (doze off) at
> > meetings, etc. This
> > didn't look good and
> > his RESA didn't like it.
> >
> > Normally Eckists become
> > standoffish, narcissistic,
> > and more "advanced" (in
> > their own minds) when
> > they become H.I.s.
> >
> > BTW- No! The church
> > won't give him grief if
> > he doesn't assimilate
> > you like the Borg. But,
> > he'll be unhappy that
> > he doesn't have a fellow
> > zombie who worships
> > a fake God/Mahanta.
> >
> > After 40 years he hasn't
> > achieved "Spiritual Freedom?"
> > He hasn't even tried that
> > hard to follow the dogma!
> > How can a person believe
> > in ECKankar's propaganda
> > and doesn't care about doing
> > what is needed to become
> > an H.I.? Something is wrong
> > with this picture.
> >
> > But, the good news is that
> > Eckankar is a waste of time,
> > like all religions are, because
> > you don't need another man
> > telling you what to do or not
> > to do or say. Be your own Master
> > Soul, now, and follow Its lead/
> > nudges/gifts.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > the3pucketts wrote:
> > I just married an Eckist.
> > He's been a member for
> > almost 40 years- since
> > his teens- is a 4th Initiate.
> >
> > (Calls himself the "Eck retard".)
> >
> > I've studied a lot of religions,
> > so can easily see what was
> > borrowed or simply fabricated.
> > He pretty much 'party line' all
> > the way- very indoctrinated.
> > He's been pushing me to join;
> > I've been going to services
> > for the last year and the Easy
> > Way satsangs for the last 4
> > months.
> >
> > I think the basic practices
> > are good, but don't feel a
> > need for a 'guide'/ to put
> > a face on the divine- and
> > really don't want to help
> > finance this organization.
> > My hubby is very defensive,
> > and takes any questions
> > as an attack. Some of the
> > other members are more
> > open to giving answers,
> > but no-one really questions
> > things.
> >
> > Will the 'church' give him
> > grief if he doesn't 'convert'
> > me? Insights into the mindset
> > would be helpful..............
> >
>
>
>

[alt.religion.eckankar repost - 09/04/11]

Unscrambling the Pieces

Paul loved his privacy. Early in his youth he was involved in a
variety of activities, but he made it a point to obscure any facts
associated with his life. In so doing, he left a trail so clouded that
it's going to take our historians years to piece it together. [....]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

You don't say? On the same page, the paragraph above read:

There are several different versions of the date Paul was born into
this life. One person I talked to said the Twitchell family Bible
recorded the year as 1910; another person, who also told me he'd seen
the family Bible, said Paul's birthdate was shown as 1908. It's
amazing how certain each person was that he knew the truth. Each one
claimed to have seen it with his own eyes. So by some accounts, he was
born on October 23, 1908 or 1910, while other accounts give the date
as October 22.

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

How about 1909? Based on the Kentucky Census (believed conducted in
the spring)of 1910 suggesting that Paul was 6 months old?

OK. Why does this stuff even matter? Perhap's it's all about
unscrambling the pieces and determining fact from fiction.

Researching the lineage of Eck Masters, or when Paul Twitchell came to
contact an Eck Master, one is naturally drawn to the mid 1930's

"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on
Sudar Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named
Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all.

"Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves."

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html

Hey now! 1935. That's the ticket!

  ". . . I found this to be true of Sudar Singh, the strange mystic of
Allahabad, in the summer of 1938, when I visited him with my step-
sister." [Based on: ECKANKAR-The Key to Secret Worlds, by Paul
Twitchell, Chap. 10, 3rd paragraph]

1938 was later edited out. See 1988 version, p. 169-170.

    ". . . I found this to be true of Sudar Singh, the strange mystic
of Allahabad, the summer I visited him with my half sister."

What is wrong with this picture? Paul Twitchell was apparently NOT a
teenager in the mid 1930's but, in fact, had already graduated high
school and been to college already!

How could Paul Twitchell have been a teenager when he (reportedly)
went to Paris, France? Or later stayed at Sudar Singh's ashram in
India for about a year?

Unscrambling the pieces? For heaven's sake! What pieces?

"It was upon their return to Paris that Paul met Sudar Singh for the
first time. The Indian holy man was lecturing in France in an effort
to gain sincere disciples."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p.
51]

"[...] Sudar Singh was silent for several moments before he spoke. 'Am
I to understand that you would like to return with me to my spiritual
retreat in Allahabad?'
    " 'That is my wish,' Kay-Dee said emphatically. 'Paul?' [....] Kay-
Dee and Paul lived in Sudar Singh's ashram for nearly a year before
the irate Grands managed to haul them home."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p.
52]

"This year in India was not spent totally in an attitude of holy
learning. Paul had reached his sixteenth birthday [1925?], and he
decided that he needed a furlough from the ashram. He traveled to
Bombay, put up in a hotel, and then set out in search of a   holy man
who Sudar Singh had said was extremely wise in the ways of God."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p.
53]

Nice going Paul / Brad!

Brad Steiger's book most likely introduced a number of people to Paul
Twitchell and Eckankar for the first time. However, Paris, Kentucky
(where Paul Twitchell's sister allegedly DID go to college) is NOT
Paris, France! And for those who might argue it was an "inner"
journey, that is NOT how the context reads in the book I quoted from.
Including the stay in an ashram for nearly a year.

I have a question. Why didn't Harold Klemp consult the "mahanta
consciousness" to determine Paul Twitchell's actual D.O.B.? Why didn't
he do the research and consult the 1910 Kentucky Census? Umm ... or
why hasn't the latest research about Paul Twitchell's birthdate been
added to the official Eckankar website instead of Harold Klemp's 1984
reference to 1908, or 1910? If the 1909 D.O.B. is the correct year,
then why isn't it there? After a quick scan of pages about Paul
Twitchell at the official Eckankar website I found the year 1909
mentioned NADA times!

Is it really more fun to find out yourself - rather than be told -
about the life of Paul Twitchell and his contacts with Eckankar
Masters, etc.? If that were the case then why did Paul Twitchell and
other Eck Masters write about and tell people already about all these
things? In order to keep the pieces scrambled and just so people could
have fun unscrambling them?

My understanding is that it's incumbent on the leader of Eckankar, the
Living Eck Master, to update the teachings of Eckankar. Problem is,
how does one unscramble the pieces of their predecessors? Especially
the founder? Apparently, it is incumbent upon the members of Eckankar
too - not to mention anybody reading about Eckankar period - to
unscramble some of the pieces.

What has it led to? What the result of people attempting to unscramble
the pieces?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/topics?hl=en&start=

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.eckankar/topics?lnk=rgh&pli=1

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx

http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/rsch3.html

http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm1.html

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm

Did it really have to take all that? And, Was [AND IS IT STILL] really
more fun?

Comments go here :)

Interesting info on the beginnings
of Eckankar. However, there are
some details that were left out.

One detail left out is that Harold
Klemp lists Twitchell's birth year
(on the copyright page of the
Combined Shariyats) as 1908.
And, since Klemp is the Mahanta
he has special insight and powers
that only a God could begin to
understand.

Thus, HK's word is irrefutable even
though there may actually be factual
physical evidence that points to
a different conclusion. Really, how
could a 14th Initiate and Mahanta
ever be wrong about anything
when he's able to travel through
time and space of the lower Planes
via his Soul Body and view all records
via the Mahanta Consciousness?

BTW-In Klemp's first EK Lexicon
he gives Twitchell's birthday as
October 22. This, coincidentally,
is also when the Rod of ECK Power
is passed to a new Living EK Master
and is considered the start of a
new spiritual year. It's also the
date used to end or begin new
positions within the ESC/RESA
Hierarchy.

Interesting, though, that Paul
was able to be born on such
an auspicious day as Oct. 22nd
... when ECK Masters are handed
the Rod of ECK Power. Or did
Paul create the Passing of the
Rod to correspond with his
birthday? I guess we'll never
know for sure? But which makes
more sense?

Prometheus



[alt.religion.eckankar repost - 09/04/11]

Unscrambling the Pieces

Paul loved his privacy. Early in his youth he was involved in a
variety of activities, but he made it a point to obscure any facts
associated with his life. In so doing, he left a trail so clouded that
it's going to take our historians years to piece it together. [....]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

You don't say? On the same page, the paragraph above read:

There are several different versions of the date Paul was born into
this life. One person I talked to said the Twitchell family Bible
recorded the year as 1910; another person, who also told me he'd seen
the family Bible, said Paul's birthdate was shown as 1908. It's
amazing how certain each person was that he knew the truth. Each one
claimed to have seen it with his own eyes. So by some accounts, he was
born on October 23, 1908 or 1910, while other accounts give the date
as October 22.

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

How about 1909? Based on the Kentucky Census (believed conducted in
the spring)of 1910 suggesting that Paul was 6 months old?

OK. Why does this stuff even matter? Perhap's it's all about
unscrambling the pieces and determining fact from fiction.

Researching the lineage of Eck Masters, or when Paul Twitchell came to
contact an Eck Master, one is naturally drawn to the mid 1930's

"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on
Sudar Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named
Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all.

"Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves."

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html

Hey now! 1935. That's the ticket!

". . . I found this to be true of Sudar Singh, the strange mystic of
Allahabad, in the summer of 1938, when I visited him with my step-
sister." [Based on: ECKANKAR-The Key to Secret Worlds, by Paul
Twitchell, Chap. 10, 3rd paragraph]

1938 was later edited out. See 1988 version, p. 169-170.

". . . I found this to be true of Sudar Singh, the strange mystic
of Allahabad, the summer I visited him with my half sister."

What is wrong with this picture? Paul Twitchell was apparently NOT a
teenager in the mid 1930's but, in fact, had already graduated high
school and been to college already!

How could Paul Twitchell have been a teenager when he (reportedly)
went to Paris, France? Or later stayed at Sudar Singh's ashram in
India for about a year?

Unscrambling the pieces? For heaven's sake! What pieces?

"It was upon their return to Paris that Paul met Sudar Singh for the
first time. The Indian holy man was lecturing in France in an effort
to gain sincere disciples."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p.
51]

"[...] Sudar Singh was silent for several moments before he spoke. 'Am
I to understand that you would like to return with me to my spiritual
retreat in Allahabad?'
" 'That is my wish,' Kay-Dee said emphatically. 'Paul?' [....] Kay-
Dee and Paul lived in Sudar Singh's ashram for nearly a year before
the irate Grands managed to haul them home."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p.
52]

"This year in India was not spent totally in an attitude of holy
learning. Paul had reached his sixteenth birthday [1925?], and he
decided that he needed a furlough from the ashram. He traveled to
Bombay, put up in a hotel, and then set out in search of a holy man
who Sudar Singh had said was extremely wise in the ways of God."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by Brad Steiger (Copyright 1968?), p.
53]

Nice going Paul / Brad!

Brad Steiger's book most likely introduced a number of people to Paul
Twitchell and Eckankar for the first time. However, Paris, Kentucky
(where Paul Twitchell's sister allegedly DID go to college) is NOT
Paris, France! And for those who might argue it was an "inner"
journey, that is NOT how the context reads in the book I quoted from.
Including the stay in an ashram for nearly a year.

I have a question. Why didn't Harold Klemp consult the "mahanta
consciousness" to determine Paul Twitchell's actual D.O.B.? Why didn't
he do the research and consult the 1910 Kentucky Census? Umm ... or
why hasn't the latest research about Paul Twitchell's birthdate been
added to the official Eckankar website instead of Harold Klemp's 1984
reference to 1908, or 1910? If the 1909 D.O.B. is the correct year,
then why isn't it there? After a quick scan of pages about Paul
Twitchell at the official Eckankar website I found the year 1909
mentioned NADA times!

Is it really more fun to find out yourself - rather than be told -
about the life of Paul Twitchell and his contacts with Eckankar
Masters, etc.? If that were the case then why did Paul Twitchell and
other Eck Masters write about and tell people already about all these
things? In order to keep the pieces scrambled and just so people could
have fun unscrambling them?

My understanding is that it's incumbent on the leader of Eckankar, the
Living Eck Master, to update the teachings of Eckankar. Problem is,
how does one unscramble the pieces of their predecessors? Especially
the founder? Apparently, it is incumbent upon the members of Eckankar
too - not to mention anybody reading about Eckankar period - to
unscramble some of the pieces.

What has it led to? What the result of people attempting to unscramble
the pieces?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/topics?hl=en&start=

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.eckankar/topics?lnk=rgh&pli=1

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx

http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/rsch3.html

http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm1.html

http://www.littleknownpubs.com/DialogIntro.htm

Did it really have to take all that? And, Was [AND IS IT STILL] really
more fun?

Comments go here :)

Hello prometheus_973:
Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
this but somehow it just worked out this way.

I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick  that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
light".

I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
question, with blind authority.

So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
heart ?

In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
lost in the sea of love…


Hello prometheus_973;
Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Rosemarie,
> I am a seeker of Truth as well.
> And yes, this article on "The Dark
> Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
> there is a dark side to Eckankar and
> there is also fear.
>
> I find it interesting that you've
> read (and I assume have contemplated
> upon) David Lane's research as well as
> Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
> and have, still, remained an ECKist.
>
> What happened to your "critical thinking?"
> Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
> you agree with some of it but not all of
> it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
> I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
> isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
> what they believe than any other religion
> they've found. Is that the case with you?
>
> I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
> book, threw it away (because of the bad
> vibes), and then placed themselves upon
> pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
> and talk Eckists through their doubts and
> concerns.
>
> You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
> not all truth is the same. That's why there
> are so many churches. People are social
> animals and tend to seek out others with
> similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
> to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
> to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
> and a test for Soul.
>
> I also got the impression that you don't
> participate much within the RESA structure.
> Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
> Do you know that you have to watch what
> you say? You've observed and learned that
> correct? You do care about being promoted
> to that next initiation right?
>
> Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
> take on the subjects that we've been discussing
> here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
> lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
> for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
> Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
> when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
> "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
> detectors just for his talk?
>
> You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
> We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
> at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
>
> BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
> read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
>
> Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
> the table.
>
> Prometheus
>
> rosemarie wrote:
> Hi Diana,
>
> I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
is truth and will always be the truth.
>
> I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
>
> I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
be brave and remain in truth.
>
> Thank you for getting back to me.
> Rosemarie
>
>
> dianastanley wrote:
>
> Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
experience I also say.
>
> Diana Stanley
>
> Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
>
> I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
are
> searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
> findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
> thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
>
> I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues. 
> We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
> have allot to bring to the table.
>   
> I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
> called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
> site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
I'd
> raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
> well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
> complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
> thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
objective.
> For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
> paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
>   
> I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
> within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
the
> facts.
>
> I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
> the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
> belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
> Do you?
>

Hello All,
Just thought I'd share some
additional comments to what
Starshine wrote.

starshine917 wrote:
Hello prometheus_973:
Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
this but somehow it just worked out this way.


ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
realization to occur and sink in
even after one decides to look
for and analyze it via critical
thinking while giving HK's/PT's
redundant words a litmus test
for truthiness.


I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as well
as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the facts.
I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
light".


ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
promises (higher plane initiations), and then
takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
one pretends or imagines they are higher
via vanity and frustration).


I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that his
same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned by
it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!! And
how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written in
the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
question, with blind authority.


ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
but is never questioned because to do
so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
Those longtime Eckists who are part
of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
of the spies that report to the RESA and
only share certain things (anti-Guideline
comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
can trust.


BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
has approved of, written by non-Eck
authors that Eckists can read. However,
the Eckist must always focus upon the
ECK or Mahanta when reading these
books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
thought. Some of these books are
recommended to those in leadership
positions and are business oriented.



So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one of
the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and go
with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
heart?


ME: It's the easy way to place an
authority figure on a shelf higher
than yourself. Less thinking and
effort is involved when blind trust
takes over. It's lazy but that's what
people do. Look at how we allow
the politicians to say and do as
they please without taking responsibility.
With Klemp, it's always the chela's
fault and never his own! He slowed-
down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
need to explain why these haven't
sped up because he answers to
nobody else, except, Sugmad right?


In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare open
your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never be
questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!

ME: That following your heart
thing is more about the Astral
Heart Chakra... which is lower
than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
Why didn't Klemp at least use
the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
having Eckists HU? After 30 years
and HK still has Eckists HUing
and focusing upon the 6th,
Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
the 7th Crown Chakra!


The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
lost in the sea of love…


ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
"common language" but it's not
quite true. ECK is not a common
word and neither is Mahanta.
And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
to is not the same (4th Plane) God
others worship or think he is speaking
about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
use the word GOD when it's not
who or what they are referring
to. It's like comparing apples
to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
start out, and are trained, to be
deceptive to non-Eckists. This
fact alone makes Eckankar look
very cult like. But, why the lie?
The "common language" excuse
doesn't hold water but Eckists
can't question this underhanded
practice or else they can have
their position taken away and
be Black Listed and shunned.

Prometheus



Hello prometheus_973;
Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ


<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Rosemarie,
> I am a seeker of Truth as well.
> And yes, this article on "The Dark
> Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
> there is a dark side to Eckankar and
> there is also fear.
>
> I find it interesting that you've
> read (and I assume have contemplated
> upon) David Lane's research as well as
> Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
> and have, still, remained an ECKist.
>
> What happened to your "critical thinking?"
> Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
> you agree with some of it but not all of
> it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
> I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
> isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
> what they believe than any other religion
> they've found. Is that the case with you?
>
> I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
> book, threw it away (because of the bad
> vibes), and then placed themselves upon
> pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
> and talk Eckists through their doubts and
> concerns.
>
> You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
> not all truth is the same. That's why there
> are so many churches. People are social
> animals and tend to seek out others with
> similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
> to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
> to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
> and a test for Soul.
>
> I also got the impression that you don't
> participate much within the RESA structure.
> Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
> Do you know that you have to watch what
> you say? You've observed and learned that
> correct? You do care about being promoted
> to that next initiation right?
>
> Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
> take on the subjects that we've been discussing
> here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
> lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
> for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
> Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
> when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
> "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
> detectors just for his talk?
>
> You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
> We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
> at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
>
> BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
> read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
>
> Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
> the table.
>
> Prometheus
>
> rosemarie wrote:
> Hi Diana,
>
> I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on this
path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that truth
is truth and will always be the truth.
>
> I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's remember,
we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much to
bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
>
> I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it hurts
sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we must
be brave and remain in truth.
>
> Thank you for getting back to me.
> Rosemarie
>
>
> dianastanley wrote:
>
> Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was their
experience I also say.
>
> Diana Stanley
>
> Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
>
> I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
>
I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
have allot to bring to the table.
>
I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
objective.

For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
>
I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
the facts.
>
I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
Do you?

Re
>>>
ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
"common language" but it's not
quite true. ECK is not a common
word and neither is Mahanta.
And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
to is not the same (4th Plane) God
others worship or think he is speaking
about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
use the word GOD when it's not
who or what they are referring
to. It's like comparing apples
to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
start out, and are trained, to be
deceptive to non-Eckists. This
fact alone makes Eckankar look
very cult like. But, why the lie?
The "common language" excuse
doesn't hold water but Eckists
can't question this underhanded
practice or else they can have
their position taken away and
be Black Listed and shunned.
>>>


For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
(Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
people' lied to them!
-Postekcon


In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> Just thought I'd share some
> additional comments to what
> Starshine wrote.
>
> starshine917 wrote:
> Hello prometheus_973:
> Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
> year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
> this but somehow it just worked out this way.
>
>
> ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
> realization to occur and sink in
> even after one decides to look
> for and analyze it via critical
> thinking while giving HK's/PT's
> redundant words a litmus test
> for truthiness.
>
>
> I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
well
> as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at that
> time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side of
> the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
facts.
> I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
> listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
> and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
> dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
> light".
>
>
> ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
> darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
> their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
> promises (higher plane initiations), and then
> takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
> the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
> one pretends or imagines they are higher
> via vanity and frustration).
>
>
> I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
his
> same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
> picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
by
> it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
And
> how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
> number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
in
> the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
> which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
> started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
> more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
> thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
> question, with blind authority.
>
>
> ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
> Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
> but is never questioned because to do
> so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
> Those longtime Eckists who are part
> of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
> saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
> of the spies that report to the RESA and
> only share certain things (anti-Guideline
> comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
> can trust.
>
>
> BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
> has approved of, written by non-Eck
> authors that Eckists can read. However,
> the Eckist must always focus upon the
> ECK or Mahanta when reading these
> books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
> thought. Some of these books are
> recommended to those in leadership
> positions and are business oriented.
>
>
>
> So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
of
> the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
> truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
> realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
go
> with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
> heart?
>
>
> ME: It's the easy way to place an
> authority figure on a shelf higher
> than yourself. Less thinking and
> effort is involved when blind trust
> takes over. It's lazy but that's what
> people do. Look at how we allow
> the politicians to say and do as
> they please without taking responsibility.
> With Klemp, it's always the chela's
> fault and never his own! He slowed-
> down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
> need to explain why these haven't
> sped up because he answers to
> nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
>
>
> In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
open
> your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
> these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
be
> questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
> Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
> enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
>
> ME: That following your heart
> thing is more about the Astral
> Heart Chakra... which is lower
> than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
> Why didn't Klemp at least use
> the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
> having Eckists HU? After 30 years
> and HK still has Eckists HUing
> and focusing upon the 6th,
> Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
> the 7th Crown Chakra!
>
>
> The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
> unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
> but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
> lost in the sea of love…
>
>
> ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
> "common language" but it's not
> quite true. ECK is not a common
> word and neither is Mahanta.
> And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
> to is not the same (4th Plane) God
> others worship or think he is speaking
> about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
> use the word GOD when it's not
> who or what they are referring
> to. It's like comparing apples
> to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
> start out, and are trained, to be
> deceptive to non-Eckists. This
> fact alone makes Eckankar look
> very cult like. But, why the lie?
> The "common language" excuse
> doesn't hold water but Eckists
> can't question this underhanded
> practice or else they can have
> their position taken away and
> be Black Listed and shunned.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> Hello prometheus_973;
> Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
>
>
> <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Rosemarie,
> > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
> > And yes, this article on "The Dark
> > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
> > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
> > there is also fear.
> >
> > I find it interesting that you've
> > read (and I assume have contemplated
> > upon) David Lane's research as well as
> > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
> > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
> >
> > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
> > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
> > you agree with some of it but not all of
> > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
> > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
> > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
> > what they believe than any other religion
> > they've found. Is that the case with you?
> >
> > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
> > book, threw it away (because of the bad
> > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
> > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
> > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
> > concerns.
> >
> > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
> > not all truth is the same. That's why there
> > are so many churches. People are social
> > animals and tend to seek out others with
> > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
> > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
> > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
> > and a test for Soul.
> >
> > I also got the impression that you don't
> > participate much within the RESA structure.
> > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
> > Do you know that you have to watch what
> > you say? You've observed and learned that
> > correct? You do care about being promoted
> > to that next initiation right?
> >
> > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
> > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
> > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
> > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
> > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
> > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
> > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
> > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
> > detectors just for his talk?
> >
> > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
> > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
> > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
> >
> > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
> > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
> >
> > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
> > the table.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > rosemarie wrote:
> > Hi Diana,
> >
> > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
this
> path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
> to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
> honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
truth
> is truth and will always be the truth.
> >
> > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
> follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
> which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
remember,
> we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
to
> bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
> >
> > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
hurts
> sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
must
> be brave and remain in truth.
> >
> > Thank you for getting back to me.
> > Rosemarie
> >
> >
> > dianastanley wrote:
> >
> > Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
> direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
> personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
> hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
their
> experience I also say.
> >
> > Diana Stanley
> >
> > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
> are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
> findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
> thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
> >
> I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
> We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
> have allot to bring to the table.
> >
> I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
> called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
> site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
> I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
> well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
> complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
> thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
> objective.
>
> For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
> paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
> >
> I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
> within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
> the facts.
> >
> I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
> the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
> belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
> Do you?
>

Hello Postekcon and All,
Yes, it was always a conundrum
trying to recruit new members
via "spreading the word" i.e.
manure. However, we had
structured public workshops
and/or book discussions with
Guidelines spelling out what
to do and how to do it.

Some RESA areas did experimental
programs (special projects),
and if successful, the ESC
tweaked them to be used
elsewhere. It was all quite
time consuming and frustrating.
Local areas and the H.I.s were
always judged on the numbers
of newbies showing up for
these events. Most people
were repeats and were into
metaphysics or were the friends,
coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

I recall that one local area
of a neighboring state was
having a lot of success via
large turnouts of newbies.
They probably had a couple
of hundred newbies in one
year and that was practically
unheard of in Eckankar. Several
of these H.I.s were very proud
of the "high counts" they turned
in to the ESC. However, out
of all of those newbies only
about ten joined Eckankar
and only, maybe, one or two
remained after a year. These,
I doubt, remained for the
long haul. Let's face it, it's
a dead end religion where
one pretends, i.e. imagines
or visualizes, their desires
for "spiritual" progress and
"knowingness" or "realization"
of varying degrees. The initiation
game is the main, underlying,
theme. The problem, for Eckists,
is that dangling carrot when
initiations have been "slowed-
down" for 25 years and the
highest most can go is the 7th!

Those 7th initiates who had
hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
years ago have rationalized
it all away. They only stay in
EK because they have some
prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
and have paid their dues with
a lot of vahana and satsang
work over the years. Plus, they've
been taught to "imagine" and
visualize, therefore, all they
need to do is pretend they are
8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
they are higher than 8ths. After
all, Darwin skipped or sped up
initiations even for Klemp. So,
if it was valid, then, why not
today? Actually, just about all
Eckists pretent they are "higher"
than the number printed on
their Membership Cards.

Anyway, the reason why
the EK Youth effort has
gained some momentum
over the years is because
it's easier to brainwash a
controlled subject. However,
that doesn't always work,
either, when these young
Eckists see their parents
act so nutty and non-Eck
like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
puts a lot of pressure upon
them to do the vahana/
missionary thing when
it's tough enough getting
through school and those
teen years. Klemp doesn't
have any empathy. He was
in a Lutheran all boys high
school and never learned
about dating until he got
out of the Air Force (1968)
when he was 26 years old!

One has to wonder why
Klemp doesn't do his fair
share of public vahana work.
Why doesn't he have a radio
show or do and say something
in real time? The EK Seminars
don't count. That's for maybe
a hundred newbies who aren't
all that "new" and for his brain-
washed followers.

In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
mission is to help his followers
achieve God Realization. However,
what Initiation level is the indicator
that this has been accomplished?

According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
resides on the 10th Plane, however,
Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
which is the highest world of God,
if any, may enter."

Of course, that's not quite true either
since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
initiations after this one. This, then,
is where one (supposedly) enters into
Soul's true home called The Ocean of
love and Mercy. However, one can see
why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
internally frustrated since, except for
a handful of people, they will never
even see the 8th initiation (in this
lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
Hope via promises for a better afterlife
while imagining day-to-day miracles
and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
expectations. It's how any and every
religion works.

Prometheus




"postekcon" wrote:
Re
>>>
ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
"common language" but it's not
quite true. ECK is not a common
word and neither is Mahanta.
And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
to is not the same (4th Plane) God
others worship or think he is speaking
about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
use the word GOD when it's not
who or what they are referring
to. It's like comparing apples
to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
start out, and are trained, to be
deceptive to non-Eckists. This
fact alone makes Eckankar look
very cult like. But, why the lie?
The "common language" excuse
doesn't hold water but Eckists
can't question this underhanded
practice or else they can have
their position taken away and
can be Black Listed and shunned.
>>>


For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks, occasionally
enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing makes
sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or ekult, always
blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is thus. The
HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the ekult into
which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised it had
the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However, several MW
(Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these 'good
people' lied to them!
-Postekcon


In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> Just thought I'd share some
> additional comments to what
> Starshine wrote.
>
> starshine917 wrote:
> Hello prometheus_973:
> Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you now….exactly, one
> year later….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't plan it like
> this but somehow it just worked out this way.
>
>
> ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
> realization to occur and sink in
> even after one decides to look
> for and analyze it via critical
> thinking while giving HK's/PT's
> redundant words a litmus test
> for truthiness.
>
>
> I recently left Eckankar. And, you were right….I read David Lane's paper as
well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some reason at
that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called positive side
of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring the
facts.

> I then started to take a good look at Harold…looked into his "dark" eyes and
> listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was very hypnotic,
> and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was inside of those
> dark eyes….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the "angel of
> light".
>
>
> ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
> darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
> their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
> promises (higher plane initiations), and then
> takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
> the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
> one pretends or imagines they are higher
> via vanity and frustration).
>
>
> I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and more that
his
> same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one and only
> picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never questioned
by
> it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and only him !!!
And
> how some members were "higher" than others depending on their "initiation"
> number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what was written
in
> the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger issues too
> which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they painted. I
> started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they seemed more and
> more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see that I was
> thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to them without
> question, with blind authority.
>
>
> ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
> Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
> but is never questioned because to do
> so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
> Those longtime Eckists who are part
> of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
> saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
> of the spies that report to the RESA and
> only share certain things (anti-Guideline
> comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
> can trust.
>
>
> BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
> has approved of, written by non-Eck
> authors that Eckists can read. However,
> the Eckist must always focus upon the
> ECK or Mahanta when reading these
> books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
> thought. Some of these books are
> recommended to those in leadership
> positions and are business oriented.
>
>
>
> So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it out with one
of
> the members and I realized that I already left…In my heart, I choose to follow
> truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being deceived. And I
> realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my convictions and
go
> with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what was in my
> heart?
>
>
> ME: It's the easy way to place an
> authority figure on a shelf higher
> than yourself. Less thinking and
> effort is involved when blind trust
> takes over. It's lazy but that's what
> people do. Look at how we allow
> the politicians to say and do as
> they please without taking responsibility.
> With Klemp, it's always the chela's
> fault and never his own! He slowed-
> down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
> need to explain why these haven't
> sped up because he answers to
> nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
>
>
> In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if you dare
open
> your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in trouble because
> these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and should never
be
> questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self appointed master,
> Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with themselves
> enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know better !!!
>
> ME: That following your heart
> thing is more about the Astral
> Heart Chakra... which is lower
> than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
> Why didn't Klemp at least use
> the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
> having Eckists HU? After 30 years
> and HK still has Eckists HUing
> and focusing upon the 6th,
> Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
> the 7th Crown Chakra!
>
>
> The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of an
> unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of GOD's flow
> but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I guess it got
> lost in the sea of love…
>
>
> ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
> "common language" but it's not
> quite true. ECK is not a common
> word and neither is Mahanta.
> And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
> to is not the same (4th Plane) God
> others worship or think he is speaking
> about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
> use the word GOD when it's not
> who or what they are referring
> to. It's like comparing apples
> to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
> start out, and are trained, to be
> deceptive to non-Eckists. This
> fact alone makes Eckankar look
> very cult like. But, why the lie?
> The "common language" excuse
> doesn't hold water but Eckists
> can't question this underhanded
> practice or else they can have
> their position taken away and
> be Black Listed and shunned.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> Hello prometheus_973;
> Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
>
>
> <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Rosemarie,
> > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
> > And yes, this article on "The Dark
> > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
> > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
> > there is also fear.
> >
> > I find it interesting that you've
> > read (and I assume have contemplated
> > upon) David Lane's research as well as
> > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
> > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
> >
> > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
> > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
> > you agree with some of it but not all of
> > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
> > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
> > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
> > what they believe than any other religion
> > they've found. Is that the case with you?
> >
> > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
> > book, threw it away (because of the bad
> > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
> > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
> > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
> > concerns.
> >
> > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
> > not all truth is the same. That's why there
> > are so many churches. People are social
> > animals and tend to seek out others with
> > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
> > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
> > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
> > and a test for Soul.
> >
> > I also got the impression that you don't
> > participate much within the RESA structure.
> > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
> > Do you know that you have to watch what
> > you say? You've observed and learned that
> > correct? You do care about being promoted
> > to that next initiation right?
> >
> > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
> > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
> > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
> > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
> > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
> > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
> > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
> > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
> > detectors just for his talk?
> >
> > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
> > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
> > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
> >
> > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
> > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
> >
> > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
> > the table.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > rosemarie wrote:
> > Hi Diana,
> >
> > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar and while on
this
> path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as well. I've been
> to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I agree that
> honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also understand that
truth
> is truth and will always be the truth.
> >
> > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless of what path we
> follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are all searching
> which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and let's
remember,
> we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We have so much
to
> bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and experience.
> >
> > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it even if it
hurts
> sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back to GOD, we
must
> be brave and remain in truth.
> >
> > Thank you for getting back to me.
> > Rosemarie
> >
> >
> > dianastanley wrote:
> >
> Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you have any
> direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it is from
> personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time. If it is
> hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew and was
> their experience I also say.
> >
> > Diana Stanley
> >
> > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for those of you who
> are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for sharing your
> findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light" of critical
> thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
> >
> I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar has issues.
> We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this site, so we
> have allot to bring to the table.
> >
> I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used in this paper
> called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links" in this web
> site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of challenge because
> I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this paper as
> well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be painted with
> complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of critical
> thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being completely
> objective.
>
> For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack ECKankar in this
> paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they originated.
> >
> I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure is overdo
> within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is based on
> the facts.
> >
> I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't think
> the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within one religious
> belief system and exchange them for another in the name of critical thinking.
> Do you?
>

One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
[p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting
  >] "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
(Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
cause!"

Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
Rebazar Tarzs saying  about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

     "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
     "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
the supreme LORD of all that exists."

http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
slightly:

"First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
remaining known planes.
     "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
    "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

"Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
lord of all that exists."

http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

"In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

"In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
Country, by at least three decades!

Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
than a paraphrase.











-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 11:17 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
And More!

 
Hello Postekcon and All,
Yes, it was always a conundrum
trying to recruit new members
via "spreading the word" i.e.
manure. However, we had
structured public workshops
and/or book discussions with
Guidelines spelling out what
to do and how to do it.

Some RESA areas did experimental
programs (special projects),
and if successful, the ESC
tweaked them to be used
elsewhere. It was all quite
time consuming and frustrating.
Local areas and the H.I.s were
always judged on the numbers
of newbies showing up for
these events. Most people
were repeats and were into
metaphysics or were the friends,
coworkers or relatives of Eckists.

I recall that one local area
of a neighboring state was
having a lot of success via
large turnouts of newbies.
They probably had a couple
of hundred newbies in one
year and that was practically
unheard of in Eckankar. Several
of these H.I.s were very proud
of the "high counts" they turned
in to the ESC. However, out
of all of those newbies only
about ten joined Eckankar
and only, maybe, one or two
remained after a year. These,
I doubt, remained for the
long haul. Let's face it, it's
a dead end religion where
one pretends, i.e. imagines
or visualizes, their desires
for "spiritual" progress and
"knowingness" or "realization"
of varying degrees. The initiation
game is the main, underlying,
theme. The problem, for Eckists,
is that dangling carrot when
initiations have been "slowed-
down" for 25 years and the
highest most can go is the 7th!

Those 7th initiates who had
hit the glass ceiling 20 or more
years ago have rationalized
it all away. They only stay in
EK because they have some
prestige, a lot of Eck friends,
and have paid their dues with
a lot of vahana and satsang
work over the years. Plus, they've
been taught to "imagine" and
visualize, therefore, all they
need to do is pretend they are
8ths (on the inner). Most pretend
they are higher than 8ths. After
all, Darwin skipped or sped up
initiations even for Klemp. So,
if it was valid, then, why not
today? Actually, just about all
Eckists pretent they are "higher"
than the number printed on
their Membership Cards.

Anyway, the reason why
the EK Youth effort has
gained some momentum
over the years is because
it's easier to brainwash a
controlled subject. However,
that doesn't always work,
either, when these young
Eckists see their parents
act so nutty and non-Eck
like. Plus, reclusive Klemp
puts a lot of pressure upon
them to do the vahana/
missionary thing when
it's tough enough getting
through school and those
teen years. Klemp doesn't
have any empathy. He was
in a Lutheran all boys high
school and never learned
about dating until he got
out of the Air Force (1968)
when he was 26 years old!

One has to wonder why
Klemp doesn't do his fair
share of public vahana work.
Why doesn't he have a radio
show or do and say something
in real time? The EK Seminars
don't count. That's for maybe
a hundred newbies who aren't
all that "new" and for his brain-
washed followers.

In theory, Klemp's real "spiritual"
mission is to help his followers
achieve God Realization. However,
what Initiation level is the indicator
that this has been accomplished?

According to Book 2, CH. 12 of
the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (Eckankar's
Holy Book) their God, Sugmad,
resides on the 10th Plane, however,
Eckists must have the 11th Initiation
for "entrance into the Sugmad world,
which is the highest world of God,
if any, may enter."

Of course, that's not quite true either
since there're the 12th, 13th, and 14th
initiations after this one. This, then,
is where one (supposedly) enters into
Soul's true home called The Ocean of
love and Mercy. However, one can see
why EK Higher initiates (5-7) become
internally frustrated since, except for
a handful of people, they will never
even see the 8th initiation (in this
lifetime). That's the Catch/Con that
Twitchell invented and Klemp inherited.
Hope via promises for a better afterlife
while imagining day-to-day miracles
and dreaming about one's pre-programmed
expectations. It's how any and every
religion works.

Prometheus

"postekcon" wrote:
Re
>>>
ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
"common language" but it's not
quite true. ECK is not a common
word and neither is Mahanta.
And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
to is not the same (4th Plane) God
others worship or think he is speaking
about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
use the word GOD when it's not
who or what they are referring
to. It's like comparing apples
to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
start out, and are trained, to be
deceptive to non-Eckists. This
fact alone makes Eckankar look
very cult like. But, why the lie?
The "common language" excuse
doesn't hold water but Eckists
can't question this underhanded
practice or else they can have
their position taken away and
can be Black Listed and shunned.
>>>

For the past ten years, I have observed this pattern.

Hard working HIs (50-70yrs plus) busy putting on Intro Talks,
occasionally
enrolling a new recruit to ekult.

However, within a year or two, the new recruit leaves ekult as nothing
makes
sense! Of course, the HIs, unable to look at either themselves or
ekult, always
blame the new recruit with comments such as lack of unfoldment etc!

For the new recruit, the reason nothing makes sense, I've observed, is
thus. The
HIs bring the new recruit into Paul Twitchell/Darwin Gross ekult; the
ekult into
which they themselved were enrolled. Now this version of ekult promised
it had
the tools for self/god realization in this lifetime etc. However,
several MW
(Mystic World) issues later, the new recruit comes to understand these
'good
people' lied to them!
-Postekcon

In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> Just thought I'd share some
> additional comments to what
> Starshine wrote.
>
> starshine917 wrote:
> Hello prometheus_973:
> Remember me? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writing to you
nowÂ….exactly, one
> year laterÂ….to the day, in response to your letter !!! I didn't
plan it like
> this but somehow it just worked out this way.
>
>
> ME: Yes, it takes awhile for the
> realization to occur and sink in
> even after one decides to look
> for and analyze it via critical
> thinking while giving HK's/PT's
> redundant words a litmus test
> for truthiness.
>
>
> I recently left Eckankar. And, you were rightÂ….I read David Lane's
paper as
well as Ford Johnson's "Confessions of a God Seeker" And, for some
reason at
that time I remained in the group tying to focus on the so-called
positive side
of the Eckankar, the hypnotic rederick that goes nowhere while ignoring
the
facts.

> I then started to take a good look at HaroldÂ…looked into his
"dark" eyes and
> listened to his figure of monotone speak and I realized it was
very hypnotic,
> and at the same time very inviting. I wondered who or what was
inside of those
> dark eyesÂ….And they seem to always come as "the light". Yes, the
"angel of
> light".
>
>
> ME: Klemp is no angel of light! He spreads
> darkness and delusion while denying Eckists
> their true nature as Soul. He gives (hope),
> promises (higher plane initiations), and then
> takes it all away (hope of ever getting beyond
> the 7th initiation while in this lifetime, unless,
> one pretends or imagines they are higher
> via vanity and frustration).
>
>
> I was in a satsang at that time and I found it disturbing more and
more that
his
> same picture of himself, which by the way never changes, the one
and only
> picture that has to be present at all Eckankar meetings was never
questioned
by
> it's members. All the books we studied were written by him and
only him !!!
And
> how some members were "higher" than others depending on their
"initiation"
> number, even if these people knew absolutely nothing except what
was written
in
> the books of Eckankar. Some of these people seemed to have anger
issues too
> which didn't seem to fit the spiritual portrait of a saint they
painted. I
> started to feel uncomfortable around these people cause they
seemed more and
> more to me like mind-controlled slaves. And, they too could see
that I was
> thinking and starting to pull away because I no longer looked to
them without
> question, with blind authority.
>
>
> ME: Yes, that more youthful looking
> Official Picture of Klemp's is a vain act,
> but is never questioned because to do
> so would get one Black Listed on initiations.
> Those longtime Eckists who are part
> of the RESA Hierarchy know what I'm
> saying. Some H.I.s are fearful/cautious
> of the spies that report to the RESA and
> only share certain things (anti-Guideline
> comments, etc.) around those H.I.s they
> can trust.
>
>
> BTW- There are some books, that Klemp
> has approved of, written by non-Eck
> authors that Eckists can read. However,
> the Eckist must always focus upon the
> ECK or Mahanta when reading these
> books and, thus, give up free, unfettered,
> thought. Some of these books are
> recommended to those in leadership
> positions and are business oriented.
>
>
>
> So, it wasn't a good mix to say the very least. I finally had it
out with one
of
> the members and I realized that I already leftÂ…In my heart, I
choose to follow
> truth and I also realized that that in Eckankar, I was being
deceived. And I
> realized that I couldn't have it both ways. I had to pick my
convictions and
go
> with them. After all, why would I go against my own self, and what
was in my
> heart?
>
>
> ME: It's the easy way to place an
> authority figure on a shelf higher
> than yourself. Less thinking and
> effort is involved when blind trust
> takes over. It's lazy but that's what
> people do. Look at how we allow
> the politicians to say and do as
> they please without taking responsibility.
> With Klemp, it's always the chela's
> fault and never his own! He slowed-
> down initiations in 1985, but doesn't
> need to explain why these haven't
> sped up because he answers to
> nobody else, except, Sugmad right?
>
>
> In Eckankar it is taught to open and follow your heart but yet, if
you dare
open
> your mind and begin to ask challenging questions, you're in
trouble because
> these people think the Mahanta in Eckankar is above all else and
should never
be
> questioned, and your heart should be open to "him", the self
appointed master,
> Harold Klemp. Even if the members of Eckankar are not honest with
themselves
> enough to admit it consciously. On a subconscious level, they know
better !!!
>
> ME: That following your heart
> thing is more about the Astral
> Heart Chakra... which is lower
> than the Third Eye or Tisra Til!
> Why didn't Klemp at least use
> the (Astral) Crown Chakra when
> having Eckists HU? After 30 years
> and HK still has Eckists HUing
> and focusing upon the 6th,
> Third Eye, Astral Chakra versus
> the 7th Crown Chakra!
>
>
> The shame of it all is that this deception is done in the name of
an
> unconditional open heart to give love, which it is true, a part of
GOD's flow
> but where's the truth ? What happened to that part of GOD ??? I
guess it got
> lost in the sea of loveÂ…
>
>
> ME: Klemp likes to say he uses
> "common language" but it's not
> quite true. ECK is not a common
> word and neither is Mahanta.
> And, the "God" (Sugmad) he refers
> to is not the same (4th Plane) God
> others worship or think he is speaking
> about. It's deceptive of Eckists to
> use the word GOD when it's not
> who or what they are referring
> to. It's like comparing apples
> to oranges! Therefore, Eckists
> start out, and are trained, to be
> deceptive to non-Eckists. This
> fact alone makes Eckankar look
> very cult like. But, why the lie?
> The "common language" excuse
> doesn't hold water but Eckists
> can't question this underhanded
> practice or else they can have
> their position taken away and
> be Black Listed and shunned.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> Hello prometheus_973;
> Remember me ? Wow, it's so weird that I'd be writ
>
>
> <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Rosemarie,
> > I am a seeker of Truth as well.
> > And yes, this article on "The Dark
> > Side of Eckankar" is inaccurate, but
> > there is a dark side to Eckankar and
> > there is also fear.
> >
> > I find it interesting that you've
> > read (and I assume have contemplated
> > upon) David Lane's research as well as
> > Ford's "Confessions of a God Seeker"
> > and have, still, remained an ECKist.
> >
> > What happened to your "critical thinking?"
> > Really, how do you justify it? Is it that
> > you agree with some of it but not all of
> > it? A pick and choose religious philosophy?
> > I have met Eckists that say that Eckankar
> > isn't a perfect choice but is as close to
> > what they believe than any other religion
> > they've found. Is that the case with you?
> >
> > I knew of Eckists who speed read Ford's
> > book, threw it away (because of the bad
> > vibes), and then placed themselves upon
> > pedestals as experts, on it, in order to intervene
> > and talk Eckists through their doubts and
> > concerns.
> >
> > You talk of "truth," but fail to realize that
> > not all truth is the same. That's why there
> > are so many churches. People are social
> > animals and tend to seek out others with
> > similar beliefs. But, in most cases, this leads
> > to a mob mentality, spiritual lethargy, and
> > to more delusion. Religion is both a trap
> > and a test for Soul.
> >
> > I also got the impression that you don't
> > participate much within the RESA structure.
> > Is that true? Do you know of the Guidelines?
> > Do you know that you have to watch what
> > you say? You've observed and learned that
> > correct? You do care about being promoted
> > to that next initiation right?
> >
> > Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your
> > take on the subjects that we've been discussing
> > here. Have you attended any major ECK Seminars
> > lately? What do you think about the Metal detectors
> > for Klemp's Saturday night talk in the main hall?
> > Doesn't this go beyond "tying up one's camel"
> > when the Mahanta is supposed to be able to
> > "protect" Eckists? Besides, why are the metal
> > detectors just for his talk?
> >
> > You said, "it is well known that ECKankar has issues.
> > We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther
> > at this site, so we have allot to bring to the table."
> >
> > BTW- Do you follow "God" or Sugmad? Have you
> > read page 383 in Klemp's Autobiography?
> >
> > Let's discuss the "issues" and bring them to
> > the table.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > rosemarie wrote:
> > Hi Diana,
> >
> > I've had lots of experiences before my journey into eckankar
and while on
this
> path. I have read David Lane's book and Ford Johnson's book as
well. I've been
> to eck satsangs, eck book discussions and eck seminars also. I
agree that
> honesty is essential the name of GOD on all levels. I also
understand that
truth
> is truth and will always be the truth.
> >
> > I think it's important to remain open and honest regardless
of what path we
> follow and to be there for one another as much as we can. We are
all searching
> which is wonderful. Therefore, we are not wrong in doing so and
let's
remember,
> we all have each other to try to put all this in perspective. We
have so much
to
> bring to one another on our many different levels of knowledge and
experience.
> >
> > I know we'll get through this some day and be stronger for it
even if it
hurts
> sometimes. If we are to stand before GOD and try to journey back
to GOD, we
must
> be brave and remain in truth.
> >
> > Thank you for getting back to me.
> > Rosemarie
> >
> >
> > dianastanley wrote:
> >
> Rosemarie. I think it takes a lot of courage to write here. If you
have any
> direct questions please feel free to ask. If I write something it
is from
> personal experience and is influenced by my emotions at the time.
If it is
> hearsay I also report that. If the info comes from someone I knew
and was
> their experience I also say.
> >
> > Diana Stanley
> >
> > Rosemarie Bucci wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to this group. First I'd like to say thank you for
those of you who
> are searching for the truth in matters regarding ECKankar and for
sharing your
> findings. However, I'd like to understand something in the "light"
of critical
> thinking for my own search of truth in regards to ECKankar.
> >
> I am not here to defend ECKankar. It is well known that ECKankar
has issues.
> We are all affiliated with ECKankar in one way or anther at this
site, so we
> have allot to bring to the table.
> >
> I have a question regarding the critical thinking technique used
in this paper
> called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" which is listed under "links"
in this web
> site. Hopefully, you can accept this as a positive form of
challenge because
> I'd raise this same question if I were in a classroom reading this
paper as
> well. How can this paper called, "The Dark Side of ECKankar" be
painted with
> complete darkness, which is based in emotional fear in the name of
critical
> thinking? The person/s who wrote this paper are not being
completely
> objective.
>
> For instance, words like Mahanta, and Satsang used to attack
ECKankar in this
> paper are sacred words used in Indian religions, where they
originated.
> >
> I certainly can understand searching for the truth which I'm sure
is overdo
> within ECKankar for many of us and I welcome investigation that is
based on
> the facts.
> >
> I love truth and follow it wherever it takes me. However, I don't
think
> the answer is to exchange impressions or the fears based within
one religious
> belief system and exchange them for another in the name of
critical thinking.
> Do you?
>

Hello Etznab and All,
It is interesting that Twitchell
has his Rebazar character (the
"Master" who initiated him)
indicate that there were 8 Planes
just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
Satsang have listed in "The Path
of the Masters." Since Kirpal
Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
Paul's real life Master for ten years
it's no wonder that this dogma was
influential in the design of Eckankar.

Of course, Twitchell was constantly
tweaking, revising, and masking his
religious con as time went by.

The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
"Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
Did RT think that Paul needed to be
spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
According to Twitchell he had been
given the 12th and "final initiation"
(to become LEM) back in 1951 by
Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
India. See, the timeline is off for this
ekplanation to be taken seriously as
well.

Therefore, there is no rational excuse
for these inconsistencies except to
admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
facts" as even Klemp has described
and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
promoter and did or said whatever
he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
in order to get Eckankar off the ground.

This is why Klemp, at first, had a
difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
inconsistencies and needed to keep
Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
Klemp can say whatever in his simple
minded redundant versions of feel-good
New Age spirituality.


Prometheus



etznab wrote:

One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.

The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
[p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
"You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
(Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)

Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
cause!"

Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:

"First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
"Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
the supreme LORD of all that exists."

http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html

Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
slightly:

"First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
remaining known planes.

"First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.

"Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."

http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
Paul Twitchell) slightly different.

"Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
lord of all that exists."

http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html

The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.

In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:

"In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country

http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html

"In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters

http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html

Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
Country, by at least three decades!

Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
than a paraphrase.

Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.

Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the
history here.

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Etznab and All,
> It is interesting that Twitchell
> has his Rebazar character (the
> "Master" who initiated him)
> indicate that there were 8 Planes
> just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
> Satsang have listed in "The Path
> of the Masters." Since Kirpal
> Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
> Paul's real life Master for ten years
> it's no wonder that this dogma was
> influential in the design of Eckankar.
>
> Of course, Twitchell was constantly
> tweaking, revising, and masking his
> religious con as time went by.
>
> The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
> "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
> later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
> mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
> Did RT think that Paul needed to be
> spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
> advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
> According to Twitchell he had been
> given the 12th and "final initiation"
> (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
> Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
> India. See, the timeline is off for this
> ekplanation to be taken seriously as
> well.
>
> Therefore, there is no rational excuse
> for these inconsistencies except to
> admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
> once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
> facts" as even Klemp has described
> and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
> had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
> promoter and did or said whatever
> he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
> in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
>
> This is why Klemp, at first, had a
> difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
> inconsistencies and needed to keep
> Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
> Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
> Klemp can say whatever in his simple
> minded redundant versions of feel-good
> New Age spirituality.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> etznab wrote:
>
> One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
> mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
> index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
>
> The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
> [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
> GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
> "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
> God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
> upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
> and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
> (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
>
> Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
> of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
> go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
> self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
> cause!"
>
> Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
> Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
>
> "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
> mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
> attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
> "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
> this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
> the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
> the supreme LORD of all that exists."
>
> http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
>
> Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
> slightly:
>
> "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
> a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
> Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
> remaining known planes.
>
> "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
> after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
> lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
> nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
> about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
>
> "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
>
> http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
>
> Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
> Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
>
> "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
> Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
> journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
> lord of all that exists."
>
> http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
>
> The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
> Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
> Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
> Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
>
> In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
> Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
> in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
> The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
>
> "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
> expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
> Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
> Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
>
> http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
>
> "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
> as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
> Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
> Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
>
> http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
>
> Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
> Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
> Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
> The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
> Country, by at least three decades!
>
> Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
> it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
> than a paraphrase.
>

Hello Etznab and All,
This tells how Paul Twitchell
was His Own Drum Beater:

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
Twitchell was saying that he had been
to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
was doing another self-promotion, and
was lying in order to get into Who's Who
in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
had never been all that far from home
at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
statement contradicts what Twitchell
revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
(the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
and promoting his con up until his untimely
and death in September, 1971.

Prometheus

etznab@...> wrote:
>
> Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
>
> Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about some of the
history here.
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
>
> Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of Approval.
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Etznab and All,
> > It is interesting that Twitchell
> > has his Rebazar character (the
> > "Master" who initiated him)
> > indicate that there were 8 Planes
> > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
> > Satsang have listed in "The Path
> > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
> > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
> > Paul's real life Master for ten years
> > it's no wonder that this dogma was
> > influential in the design of Eckankar.
> >
> > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
> > tweaking, revising, and masking his
> > religious con as time went by.
> >
> > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
> > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
> > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
> > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
> > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
> > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
> > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
> > According to Twitchell he had been
> > given the 12th and "final initiation"
> > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
> > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
> > India. See, the timeline is off for this
> > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
> > well.
> >
> > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
> > for these inconsistencies except to
> > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
> > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
> > facts" as even Klemp has described
> > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
> > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
> > promoter and did or said whatever
> > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
> > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
> >
> > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
> > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
> > inconsistencies and needed to keep
> > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
> > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
> > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
> > minded redundant versions of feel-good
> > New Age spirituality.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> > etznab wrote:
> >
> > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar Tarzs
> > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme. Check the
> > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with the Master.
> >
> > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless region,
> > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called THE FACE OF
> > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying: [Quoting]
> > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the light of
> > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes could not look
> > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean of Love
> > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return in time."
> > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
> >
> > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in the House
> > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens. Ye cannot
> > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with my divine
> > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in the divine
> > cause!"
> >
> > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the Master, has
> > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting snippet]:
> >
> > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in a
> > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
> > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
> > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and after
> > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul reaches
> > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD,
> > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
> >
> > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the description
> > slightly:
> >
> > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the Sat Nam in
> > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in all Sat
> > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the three
> > remaining known planes.
> >
> > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
> > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam Purusha, or
> > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region of the
> > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first you know
> > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the Divine.
> >
> > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
> >
> > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is illustrated (by
> > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
> >
> > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam Lok.
> > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the end of its
> > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the supreme
> > lord of all that exists."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
> >
> > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok, Alak Lok,
> > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with Ocean of
> > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip mention of
> > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
> >
> > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master, Introduction to
> > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes similarly, and
> > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain sections from
> > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
> >
> > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is
> > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala,
> > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
> > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
> >
> > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such
> > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam,
> > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar,
> > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
> >
> > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent from the
> > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR vs.
> > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian Johnson's book,
> > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The Far
> > Country, by at least three decades!
> >
> > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word, trademarked
> > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is somehow more
> > than a paraphrase.
> >
>

I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

myth

1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

      Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
"Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
none

In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
provide that information?

As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

embellish

mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
"beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
Embellished; embellishing.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
mode=none

Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
And More!

 
Hello Etznab and All,
This tells how Paul Twitchell
was His Own Drum Beater:

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
Twitchell was saying that he had been
to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
was doing another self-promotion, and
was lying in order to get into Who's Who
in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
had never been all that far from home
at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
statement contradicts what Twitchell
revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
(the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
and promoting his con up until his untimely
and death in September, 1971.

Prometheus

etznab@...> wrote:
>
> Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
>
> Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
some of the history here.
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
>
> Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
Approval.
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
"prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Etznab and All,
> > It is interesting that Twitchell
> > has his Rebazar character (the
> > "Master" who initiated him)
> > indicate that there were 8 Planes
> > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
> > Satsang have listed in "The Path
> > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
> > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
> > Paul's real life Master for ten years
> > it's no wonder that this dogma was
> > influential in the design of Eckankar.
> >
> > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
> > tweaking, revising, and masking his
> > religious con as time went by.
> >
> > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
> > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
> > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
> > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
> > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
> > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
> > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
> > According to Twitchell he had been
> > given the 12th and "final initiation"
> > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
> > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
> > India. See, the timeline is off for this
> > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
> > well.
> >
> > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
> > for these inconsistencies except to
> > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
> > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
> > facts" as even Klemp has described
> > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
> > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
> > promoter and did or said whatever
> > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
> > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
> >
> > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
> > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
> > inconsistencies and needed to keep
> > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
> > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
> > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
> > minded redundant versions of feel-good
> > New Age spirituality.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> > etznab wrote:
> >
> > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
Tarzs
> > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
Check the
> > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
the Master.
> >
> > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
region,
> > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
THE FACE OF
> > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
[Quoting]
> > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
light of
> > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
could not look
> > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
of Love
> > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
in time."
> > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
> >
> > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
the House
> > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
Ye cannot
> > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
my divine
> > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
the divine
> > cause!"
> >
> > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
Master, has
> > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
snippet]:
> >
> > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
a
> > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
> > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
> > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
after
> > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
reaches
> > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
the SUGMAD,
> > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
> >
> > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
description
> > slightly:
> >
> > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
Sat Nam in
> > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
all Sat
> > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
three
> > remaining known planes.
> >
> > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
and
> > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
Purusha, or
> > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
of the
> > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
you know
> > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
Divine.
> >
> > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
> >
> > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
illustrated (by
> > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
> >
> > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
Lok.
> > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
end of its
> > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
supreme
> > lord of all that exists."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
> >
> > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
Alak Lok,
> > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
Ocean of
> > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
mention of
> > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
> >
> > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
Introduction to
> > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
similarly, and
> > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
sections from
> > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
> >
> > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
is
> > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
Nirala,
> > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
> > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
> >
> > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
words, such
> > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
Anami, Agam,
> > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
Parameshwar,
> > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
> >
> > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
from the
> > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
vs.
> > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
Johnson's book,
> > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
Far
> > Country, by at least three decades!
> >
> > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
trademarked
> > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
somehow more
> > than a paraphrase.
> >
>

Hello Etznab and All,
It's true that most Eckists have
turned a blind eye towards their
religion. However, it's done via
Klemp's subtle and not so subtle
intimidation tactics such as:

Going to the "inner" to have
one's questions answered...
this is what the more "advanced"
and "enlightened" Eckists do.

Using the Buddha quote of, "Is
it true, is it necessary, is it kind"
this I ask myself before I speak
my mind.

HK writing articles and giving
talks on the negativity of gossip
and how it hinders one's "spiritual"
growth.

Also, there's the unspoken knowledge
that those who ask too many questions,
especially "wrong" questions, will get
Eckists Black Listed on initiations or
to have them slowed down 3-5 years
(on average) longer than normal.

Plus, Eckankar's Higher Initiates
(5-7) are a very passive group
and don't want to question the
foundation of their religion because
things are going okay so why rock
the boat? Being an H.I. is an ego
trip and a security blanket too.

And, let's face it, most Eckists don't
have the time or inclination to research
the old, P.T., Eckankar texts. They've
read it all before so why go back and
read it with new eyes and a changed
consciousness? However, it does make
one wonder why they've allowed them-
selves to be shackled to HK's dogma
when it's all based upon Twitchell's
"compilation."

In PT's Eckankar Dictionary, Shariyat
One and HK's First Lexicon, they
tell about the first "root race" called
the "POLARIANS." Klemp must agree
with Twitchell on this dogmatic information
since he put it into his own Eckankar
Lexicon.

But, do Eckists really believe in the
Old Testament Christian Myth about
the Garden of Eden? Actually, no,
they don't! I've even read where
they've made fun of this. How ironic!
Twitchell not only states that the
Garden of Eden existed but gives
his own (revised) names of those
present. In the ECK version Adam
becomes "Adom" and Eve becomes
"Ede" (like in Eden) This is, of course,
a clear picture of how Twitchell created
Eckankar. He took certain words,
names, and information changed
the text and letters around, or added
and omitted letters, and made the
info his own.

What's really funny is that in defense
of Twitchell Klemp has claimed that
Paul "compiled" only the highest teachings
from around the world in order to
create the highest "spiritual" teaching
anywhere and at anytime. Why then,
did Twitchell use the Garden of Eden
myth, and create Adom and Ede?
Is this supposed to be the actual
account while the Christian version
is less accurate. This is how Eckists
rationalize and explain everything
(the truth) away. ECK is a facsimile
and everything else is a copy. But
this shows that all religions are
distorted and inaccurate copies.

It really should be embarrassing,
for Eckists, since this information
is listed in their first Holy Book
under Polarian race (check the
index for the page number).

Plus, let's face it. This Garden
of Eden myth is a non-evolutionary
belief. It was devised during
a time of ignorance and pre-science
in order to give a religious explanation
for creation. And, it's been revised
even by early Christianity because
Lillith was supposed to have been
Adam's first mate who was created
equally with him.

Later, the creation myth story was
changed so that Eve was created
from Adam's rib in order to make
her subservient to him... as Eckists
are to subservient to Klemp. Thus,
no female LEMs and even Mahantas
are permitted due to some hokey
negative atom ekplanation.


But, Eckists are in denial of the truth
as they continue to pretend they
are advanced Souls. The mind is
very powerful and that's why Eckankar
appears to work for Eckists. The
mind will give one the dreams
and "signs" that are programmed
into it via suggestion and expectation.
However, isn't this the modus
operandi of all religions? If one
just Googles "miracles" one can
see examples of faith and belief
that would put any Eckist to shame.

Therefore, why do Eckists not
see the truth? Is it that they
have tied up their camels, to
a fraudent belief, and now, trust
in a make believe God/Mahanta...
Klemp? It is the Easy Way!

Prometheus




etznab@... wrote:
I think a lot of people can overlook this stuff, thinking that whatever
Paul Twitchell said/wrote must be the truth. Some people just might not
care. Well, it's reasonable to suspect this talent - for promotion,
even when it means making things up, stretching the truth, or just
plain spinning lies - was used to "create" the Eckankar mythos.

myth

1830, from Gk. mythos "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

Myths are "stories about divine beings, generally arranged in a
coherent system; they are revered as true and sacred; they are endorsed
by rulers and priests; and closely linked to religion. Once this link
is broken, and the actors in the story are not regarded as gods but as
human heroes, giants or fairies, it is no longer a myth but a folktale.
Where the central actor is divine but the story is trivial ... the
result is religious legend, not myth." [J. Simpson & S. Roud,
"Dictionary of English Folklore," Oxford, 2000, p.254]

General sense of "untrue story, rumor" is from 1840.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mythos&searchmode=\
\
\
none

In other words, amid all the compilations and recycled material, etc.,
context has been changed (in various places) when it comes to source. I
wonder, could Paul Twitchell have created "Eckankar" and at the same
time given the source for all of his material? I noticed Kirpal Singh
and others were very good at citing references and sharing what
quote/saying came from who. So if Paul Twitchell ever chose to use
passages and paragraphs from books, Did he always feel obligated to
provide that information?

As a promoter, I suspect the person wants to give credit to whatever
they're promoting and not give more credit to "other products" instead.
It makes sense (to me) that Paul Twitchell would "paint the name
Eckankar" over so much material he had read (in so many words). Not
only this, but it even appears probable that Paul Twitchell took
liberty to respell and redefine words according to fit them in a new,
and growing, Eckankar philosophy. Not only words, but names too!

How extensive the promotion and PR campaign that created contemporary
Eckankar teaching? In so many ways, it seems this is the part that
doesn't agree with people. Not unless they knew from the beginning that
information was not necessarily accurate and in some places embellished.

embellish

mid-14c., "to render beautiful," from O.Fr. embelliss-, stem of
embellir "make beautiful, ornament," from em- (see en- (1)) + bel
"beautiful," from L. bellus (see bene-). Meaning "dress up (a
narration) with fictitious matter" is from mid-15c. Related:
Embellished; embellishing.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=embellished&search\
\
\
mode=none

Reading through early Eckankar books I think common sense might tell a
person that parts of the material was embellished. At the same time I
also think people could naturally so much want the material to be true
that they allow imagination to "make it so" and overrule common sense.

Ever observe what happens when you're part of a group where countless
individuals believe in things - through imagination - that aren't
necessarily true? I mean, when you're one of the unbelievers and part
of the minority who question whether so many imagined things are true?


-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 2:14 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: "The Dark Side of ECKankar" -
And More!

Â
Hello Etznab and All,
This tells how Paul Twitchell
was His Own Drum Beater:

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html

What's interesting is that at age 27 (1935)
Twitchell was saying that he had been
to India (supposedly at age 15 to meet
Rebazar for the first time, DOBTLEM).
However, Klemp points out that Twitchell
was doing another self-promotion, and
was lying in order to get into Who's Who
in Kentucky. Klemp states that Twitchell
had never been all that far from home
at age 27. Klemp seems to have stepped
into a big pile of Twits mess. HK's
statement contradicts what Twitchell
revealed in Difficulties of Becoming the
Living ECK Master circa July, 1971. This
1971 date is, supposedly, long after Twitchell
(the Mahanta) was was no longer "exaggerating"
and "twisting facts." However, as Klemp
has pointed out Twitchell was still lying
and promoting his con up until his untimely
and death in September, 1971.

Prometheus

etznab@...> wrote:
>
> Almost didn't see this response because the e-mail bounced.
>
> Umm ... about the self-promotion, whatever, people can read about
some of the history here.
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
>
> Check out 4th paragraph of article entitled: Paul's Seal of
Approval.
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
"prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Etznab and All,
> > It is interesting that Twitchell
> > has his Rebazar character (the
> > "Master" who initiated him)
> > indicate that there were 8 Planes
> > just as Radhasomi and Ruhani
> > Satsang have listed in "The Path
> > of the Masters." Since Kirpal
> > Singh, of Ruhani Satsang, was
> > Paul's real life Master for ten years
> > it's no wonder that this dogma was
> > influential in the design of Eckankar.
> >
> > Of course, Twitchell was constantly
> > tweaking, revising, and masking his
> > religious con as time went by.
> >
> > The Anami Lok (10th Plane where
> > "Sugmad" resides) didn't appear until
> > later. Did Rebazar simply forget to
> > mention this as well as the "Mahanta?"
> > Did RT think that Paul needed to be
> > spoon-fed and wasn't ready for this
> > advanced "spiritual" info? No, not really.
> > According to Twitchell he had been
> > given the 12th and "final initiation"
> > (to become LEM) back in 1951 by
> > Rebazar while on his "2nd" visit to
> > India. See, the timeline is off for this
> > ekplanation to be taken seriously as
> > well.
> >
> > Therefore, there is no rational excuse
> > for these inconsistencies except to
> > admit that the "rascal" Twitchell was,
> > once again, "exaggerating" and "twisting
> > facts" as even Klemp has described
> > and said of him. Klemp, years ago,
> > had to admit that Twitchell was a self-
> > promoter and did or said whatever
> > he needed to do ("By Any Means Necessary")
> > in order to get Eckankar off the ground.
> >
> > This is why Klemp, at first, had a
> > difficult job of explaining Twitchell's
> > inconsistencies and needed to keep
> > Eckists confused, busy, and off-balance.
> > Now, Eckists are so brainwashed that
> > Klemp can say whatever in his simple
> > minded redundant versions of feel-good
> > New Age spirituality.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> > etznab wrote:
> >
> > One of Paul Twitchell's first reported journey's with Rebazar
Tarzs
> > mentioned eight planes, much like the Radhasoami scheme.
Check the
> > index section for Ocean of Love and Mercy in Dialogues with
the Master.
> >
> > The Ocean of Love and Mercy was associated with the nameless
region,
> > [p. 170] and Nameless World [p.188]. In the chapter called
THE FACE OF
> > GOD, 6th paragraph, Paul Twitchell has Rebazar Tarzs saying:
[Quoting]
> > "You are in the nameless world. The light you see is the
light of
> > God so vastly brilliant in all its glory that human eyes
could not look
> > upon it. You are now the perfect atom, for this is the Ocean
of Love
> > and Mercy, the true home of the SUGMAD where all Souls return
in time."
> > (Dialogues with the Master,by Paul Twitchell, p. 191)
> >
> > Moreover, at bottom of p. 193 [SUGMAD speaking?] "Ye are in
the House
> > of the SUGMAD. The abode of abodes. The highest of heavens.
Ye cannot
> > go higher, and here ye, Soul, having become at-one-ment with
my divine
> > self, return to Its true self, ever ready with Its work in
the divine
> > cause!"
> >
> > Chapter sixteen (The Cosmic Worlds) of Dialogues with the
Master, has
> > Rebazar Tarzs saying about the various planes [quoting
snippet]:
> >
> > "First, It becomes united with the very essence of Sat Nam in
a
> > mystic sense, and so becomes one with IT, partaking of all ITS
> > attributes. It then advances to the three remaining regions.
> > "Next is Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha, and
after
> > this is Agam Lok, presided over by Agam Purusha. Finally Soul
reaches
> > the end of Its journey, the region of the nameless ONE, or
the SUGMAD,
> > the supreme LORD of all that exists."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/dwtm.html
> >
> > Later on, in The Far Country, Rebazar Tarzs changes the
description
> > slightly:
> >
> > "First, the Tuza becomes united with the very essence of the
Sat Nam in
> > a mystical sense, and so, becomes a part of Him, partaking in
all Sat
> > Nam's marvelous attributes. Then the Tuza advances to the
three
> > remaining known planes.
> >
> > "First is the Alakh Lok, presided over by the Alakh Purusha,
and
> > after this is the Agam Lok plane presided over by the Agam
Purusha, or
> > lord. Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
of the
> > nameless One, Advaita, the formless, that which is the first
you know
> > about the SUGMAD, the feeling or the understanding of the
Divine.
> >
> > "Eventually you come to the SUGMAD in the vast worlds above."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
> >
> > Here again (Introduction to Eckankar), the subject is
illustrated (by
> > Paul Twitchell) slightly different.
> >
> > "Beyond this plane is the Alakh Lok plane, and then the Agam
Lok.
> > Finally after a succession of many planes, Soul reaches the
end of its
> > journey, the region of the nameless One, or the SUGMAD, the
supreme
> > lord of all that exists."
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/itecpwPage2.html
> >
> > The earliest scheme of planes appears to indicate Sat Lok,
Alak Lok,
> > Agam Lok & Anami Lok - the latter apparently associated with
Ocean of
> > Love & Mercy. Strangely though, someone saw fit to slip
mention of
> > Hukikat Lok into p. 111 of Dialogues with the Master.
> >
> > In any case, notice how Dialogues with the Master,
Introduction to
> > Eckankar and The Far Country tend to describe the planes
similarly, and
> > in similar order. Notice also, how similar are certain
sections from
> > The Far Country with The Path of the Masters. Example:
> >
> > "In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit
is
> > expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal,
Nirala,
> > Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar,
> > Paramakshar, Purusha." - The Far Country
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/tfctfc.html
> >
> > "In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many
words, such
> > as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala,
Anami, Agam,
> > Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar,
Parameshwar,
> > Akshar Purush, etc." - The Path of the Masters
> >
> > http://www.mirrorh.com/potmnots.html
> >
> > Notice how the words Soami, Radha Soami & Hari Rai are absent
from the
> > Eckankar version. And where the Eckankar version has ECKANKAR
vs.
> > Ekankar. The remarkable thing about this is how Julian
Johnson's book,
> > The Path of the Masters, preceded Paul Twitchell's book, The
Far
> > Country, by at least three decades!
> >
> > Apparently then, Eckankar changed the spelling of a word,
trademarked
> > it, and later published it in a book. I believe this is
somehow more
> > than a paraphrase.

Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are eternal thus we always
manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT THIS WORLD THAT WE ARE
NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some spiritual experiences
unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job,or be a mediocre fiction
writer,or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big lie of mahanta
consciousness. There are spiritual travelers(masters,Jesus,Siddharta,Krishna
ect..)paul was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body experiences and
a con mans mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken in us what we
already know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which is learning to
open the spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the celestial sound
current. To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in his own self
seeking vanity ,used something beautiful and sacred for his own selfish means.
Sat nam mmeans truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches love, he hides
from the truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come to believe that
selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant to be a religion only
ameans to awaken to spirit,never meant for profit. The nine silent ones do exist
yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction.

Hello Tyson,
Welcome to the site. I'd like
to respond to your comments.


Tyson wrote:

"Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are eternal thus we always
manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT THIS WORLD THAT WE ARE
NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some spiritual experiences
unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job, or be a mediocre fiction
writer, or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big lie of mahanta
consciousness."


ME: IMO all religions are false teachings.
One can only come to "Know" about Soul,
ETC. from personal and private experiences
during a lifetime. Tick tock, tick tock... time
is running out for Eckists to see beyond the
false teachings of Twitchell and Klemp. We
are both dual as Soul and as persons and,
yet, we are one with one another via the
Divine essence/creative/destructive force.


"There are spiritual travelers (masters, Jesus, Siddharta, Krishna ect..) paul
was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body experiences and a con mans
mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken in us what we already
know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which is learning to open the
spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the celestial sound current.
To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in his own self seeking
vanity, used something beautiful and sacred for his own selfish means. Sat nam
means truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches love, he hides from the
truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come to believe that
selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant to be a religion only
ameans to awaken to spirit, never meant for profit. The nine silent ones do
exist yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction."


ME: Those mentioned above were
"extroverted" masters. However,
IMO, there are many more who are
"introverted" masters and many of
those live "now" and are/were not
of the ancient past. Today, most
extroverts have demonic, self-centered
(and more negative versus positive)
tendencies/characteristics. It's become
a bipolar narcissistic world.

BTW- The Spiritual Eye or Tisra Til
is merely the 6th Astral Chakra. The
7th or Crown Chakra is easier to use
in order to leave the body through
the top of the head.

Also, The Path of the Masters gives
another name for God other than
Ek Ong Kar... it's Ekankar. Paul added
the "c."

And, I don't believe in any Nine Silent
Ones nor anything coming from Sant
Mat. It's all bullshit. One cannot share
their truth as a religion. One can take
and use some of what another has
learned via their own revelations into
the Divine in order to prime one's own
pump, so to speak, but after that it's
up to You directing You.

We all need to become our own spiritual
leader/teacher and take responsibility
instead of following others. I'll admit
that Jesus did have some very good
lessons to teach. Unfortunately, those
who lead us today, religious/political,
cannot hold a candle to those teachings.
They all give lip service to those lessons
of love, empathy, tolerance, forgiveness,
and compassion. Look at Klemp! Did he
forgive Darwin? No! HK's never even mentioned
Darwin's death! Yet, Darwin gave Harold
almost all of his initiations including the
12th! People, like Klemp, are hypocrites
who say one thing and and do another.


Prometheus

Hi everyone. I have come to the understanding for my self, that counciousness is
not divided into individual souls. It is one and when a form is available it
manifestest as it needs a vehicle in which to know it self. Someone said
counciousness is like a whale looking at its own tail. we are the tail. Because
we are in seppret forms counsessness itdendifies with the individual form and
comes to believe it is seperat from all other forms. We are tought that as
children. We have a name and a body that is male or female. we are different
from everyone else.
Every living form from flowers to people have an atom of counciousness in it.
when the body dies counciousness returns to itself.
of course that may be all bullsh-t but right now I believe it!
Diana
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Tyson,
> Welcome to the site. I'd like
> to respond to your comments.
>
>
> Tyson wrote:
>
> "Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are eternal thus we
always
> manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT THIS WORLD THAT WE
ARE
> NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some spiritual experiences
> unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job, or be a mediocre fiction
> writer, or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big lie of mahanta
> consciousness."
>
>
> ME: IMO all religions are false teachings.
> One can only come to "Know" about Soul,
> ETC. from personal and private experiences
> during a lifetime. Tick tock, tick tock... time
> is running out for Eckists to see beyond the
> false teachings of Twitchell and Klemp. We
> are both dual as Soul and as persons and,
> yet, we are one with one another via the
> Divine essence/creative/destructive force.
>
>
> "There are spiritual travelers (masters, Jesus, Siddharta, Krishna ect..) paul
> was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body experiences and a con
mans
> mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken in us what we already
> know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which is learning to open
the
> spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the celestial sound
current.
> To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in his own self seeking
> vanity, used something beautiful and sacred for his own selfish means. Sat nam
> means truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches love, he hides from
the
> truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come to believe that
> selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant to be a religion only
> ameans to awaken to spirit, never meant for profit. The nine silent ones do
> exist yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction."
>
>
> ME: Those mentioned above were
> "extroverted" masters. However,
> IMO, there are many more who are
> "introverted" masters and many of
> those live "now" and are/were not
> of the ancient past. Today, most
> extroverts have demonic, self-centered
> (and more negative versus positive)
> tendencies/characteristics. It's become
> a bipolar narcissistic world.
>
> BTW- The Spiritual Eye or Tisra Til
> is merely the 6th Astral Chakra. The
> 7th or Crown Chakra is easier to use
> in order to leave the body through
> the top of the head.
>
> Also, The Path of the Masters gives
> another name for God other than
> Ek Ong Kar... it's Ekankar. Paul added
> the "c."
>
> And, I don't believe in any Nine Silent
> Ones nor anything coming from Sant
> Mat. It's all bullshit. One cannot share
> their truth as a religion. One can take
> and use some of what another has
> learned via their own revelations into
> the Divine in order to prime one's own
> pump, so to speak, but after that it's
> up to You directing You.
>
> We all need to become our own spiritual
> leader/teacher and take responsibility
> instead of following others. I'll admit
> that Jesus did have some very good
> lessons to teach. Unfortunately, those
> who lead us today, religious/political,
> cannot hold a candle to those teachings.
> They all give lip service to those lessons
> of love, empathy, tolerance, forgiveness,
> and compassion. Look at Klemp! Did he
> forgive Darwin? No! HK's never even mentioned
> Darwin's death! Yet, Darwin gave Harold
> almost all of his initiations including the
> 12th! People, like Klemp, are hypocrites
> who say one thing and and do another.
>
>
> Prometheus
>

I believe harold is seriously mentally ill. I saw it when i worked with him.
Given his role now as God it has pushed him over the edge.
So there can be no real explination for what he does and says. How can it
possibly make anysense. Eckankar will pass away when he does.
Diana

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> In the September 2011 EK Mystic
> World, "The Wisdom Notes," Klemp
> attempts to make a case, with the
> help of a couple of psychological
> studies that show brain patterns
> change due to Internet usage. This
> change, supposedly, causes a negative
> effect upon one's ability to concentrate
> compared to reading a book. Klemp
> preaches that (his) paper books are,
> therefore, better than reading the
> same text from even Kindles or i-Pads!
>
> HK, also, states that young people
> have become obsessive about texting
> and that this is a hinderance to spiritual
> growth. Of course Klemp (a recluse) has
> overlooked the fact that young people,
> even introverts, are communicating
> more with their peers (from all around
> the world) and are being more sociable,
> while learning and developing new brain
> patterns compatible for the computer
> age.
>
> However, I find a few things interesting
> with Klemp's Wisdom Notes. First, he still
> has that younger looking picture of himself
> on the page. What's with that? Is Harry
> vain and obsessed with his past image?
> Klemp needs to live in the reality of Now
> versus the past!
>
> Also, in this article, Klemp starts off
> three sentences with "But." In a past
> article in a H.I. Letter HK stated that
> Eckists should Not use "But!" He said
> it was "a nail in the coffin of invention"
> and some other crap. He even quoted Kant
> in order to make his point. So, it seems,
> Klemp's as much of a hypocrite as other
> religious leaders. Do as I say, not as I do!
> Interesting, too, that HK uses the EK "Principle
> of the Threes" to lead off three sentences
> with "BUT" when he described its usage
> in negative terms. Is this Black Magic he's
> using? Why would he use a negative
> word that changes or reverses the meaning
> of a sentence Three Times? Hmmmmm.
>
> And, yes, Klemp revisits the EMF/EMR
> harm done by electronic devices... so
> stay away from those cell phones and
> computers. What's even funnier with this
> attempt to manipulate Eckists is that,
> next, Klemp gives an Internet address
> for a book that can explain the dangers
> the Internet can cause to the brain! LOL!
> What a dumb ass! I say this because he
> can't even see the hypocrisy staring
> him in the face.
>
> In conclusion Klemp gives a warning
> that these "electronic tools" may also
> alter and weaken one's relationship
> with the Mahanta (his alter ego).
> So watch out for the evils of Googling,
> especially, if you Google "Eckankar
> Survivors Anonymous!"
>
> BTW- Do you think that Klemp is
> a Tea Bagger? I'm thinking that the
> way he distorts and manipulates the
> truth that he has to be a Tea Bagger!
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Diana,
interesting and thought provoking!
I see it somewhat semantically
different (I think).

Maybe it's that all consciousness
Is divided into individual states/
units/Souls. But I also see that
all "units" are unified and share
the (non-religious) Divine essence
of Being. I don't really see the
"atom" correlation as much since
human thoughts are extremely
powerful while not containing
atoms, although, thoughts can
control and manipulate atoms
in/of the physical universe.

I don't see that consciousness
is comprised of atoms, either,
since thoughts are not comprised
of atoms, although, the atoms
that comprise our bodies and
minds create thoughts (dreams)
and individual consciousness.
Brain chemistry and its pathways
are important, as well, so sometimes
it's the arrangement of various
atoms and their interactions
with/to one another.

I will say that it appears that
there are almost infinite degrees
and combinations for these atoms
to be arranged and to function
at any given point in time. Thus,
"Truth" becomes more a social/
religious/scientific term and
theory is merely a degree of
faith via observation.

As far as consciousness remaining
after the individual dies... I don't
know. Where is it? What impact does
it have, and on whom or what? Who
says it does remain and how do they
know? It sounds like a nice thought
and a reassuring pov, but....? Then,
again, there's the "Soul" view which
is very similar.

The one thing that I've observed and
experienced is that there are individual
(Soul) patterns, choices, and fate, as
well as, "nudges" and quiet "whispers"
that we all experience during our lives.
IMO, people are merely the human/individual
and physical expressions of the Divine
Consciousness while Soul/Spirit is the
conduit and observer within. However,
many are unaware of or reject this, and
similar philosophies, and choose to follow
ego and/or religion.


Prometheus



dianastanley wrote:
>
> Hi everyone. I have come to the understanding for my self, that counciousness
is not divided into individual souls. It is one and when a form is available it
manifestest as it needs a vehicle in which to know it self. Someone said
counciousness is like a whale looking at its own tail. we are the tail. Because
we are in seppret forms counsessness itdendifies with the individual form and
comes to believe it is seperat from all other forms. We are tought that as
children. We have a name and a body that is male or female. we are different
from everyone else.

> Every living form from flowers to people have an atom of counciousness in it.
> when the body dies counciousness returns to itself.
> of course that may be all bullsh-t but right now I believe it!
> Diana

> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Tyson,
> > Welcome to the site. I'd like
> > to respond to your comments.
> >
> >
> > Tyson wrote:
> >
> > "Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are eternal thus we
always
> > manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT THIS WORLD THAT WE
ARE
> > NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some spiritual experiences
> > unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job, or be a mediocre
fiction
> > writer, or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big lie of mahanta
> > consciousness."
> >
> >
> > ME: IMO all religions are false teachings.
> > One can only come to "Know" about Soul,
> > ETC. from personal and private experiences
> > during a lifetime. Tick tock, tick tock... time
> > is running out for Eckists to see beyond the
> > false teachings of Twitchell and Klemp. We
> > are both dual as Soul and as persons and,
> > yet, we are one with one another via the
> > Divine essence/creative/destructive force.
> >
> >
> > "There are spiritual travelers (masters, Jesus, Siddharta, Krishna ect..)
paul
> > was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body experiences and a con
mans
> > mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken in us what we already
> > know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which is learning to open
the
> > spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the celestial sound
current.
> > To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in his own self seeking
> > vanity, used something beautiful and sacred for his own selfish means. Sat
nam
> > means truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches love, he hides from
the
> > truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come to believe that
> > selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant to be a religion
only
> > ameans to awaken to spirit, never meant for profit. The nine silent ones do
> > exist yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction."
> >
> >
> > ME: Those mentioned above were
> > "extroverted" masters. However,
> > IMO, there are many more who are
> > "introverted" masters and many of
> > those live "now" and are/were not
> > of the ancient past. Today, most
> > extroverts have demonic, self-centered
> > (and more negative versus positive)
> > tendencies/characteristics. It's become
> > a bipolar narcissistic world.
> >
> > BTW- The Spiritual Eye or Tisra Til
> > is merely the 6th Astral Chakra. The
> > 7th or Crown Chakra is easier to use
> > in order to leave the body through
> > the top of the head.
> >
> > Also, The Path of the Masters gives
> > another name for God other than
> > Ek Ong Kar... it's Ekankar. Paul added
> > the "c."
> >
> > And, I don't believe in any Nine Silent
> > Ones nor anything coming from Sant
> > Mat. It's all bullshit. One cannot share
> > their truth as a religion. One can take
> > and use some of what another has
> > learned via their own revelations into
> > the Divine in order to prime one's own
> > pump, so to speak, but after that it's
> > up to You directing You.
> >
> > We all need to become our own spiritual
> > leader/teacher and take responsibility
> > instead of following others. I'll admit
> > that Jesus did have some very good
> > lessons to teach. Unfortunately, those
> > who lead us today, religious/political,
> > cannot hold a candle to those teachings.
> > They all give lip service to those lessons
> > of love, empathy, tolerance, forgiveness,
> > and compassion. Look at Klemp! Did he
> > forgive Darwin? No! HK's never even mentioned
> > Darwin's death! Yet, Darwin gave Harold
> > almost all of his initiations including the
> > 12th! People, like Klemp, are hypocrites
> > who say one thing and and do another.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>

I'm afraid my quantum phyisics is showing.Instead of atom you could say unit of
counciousness. I  see counciousness as something all things exist in not that it
exists in us although it seems like it as we are used to feeling sepperate from
all other things.
I believe God,so to speak,can only beaware of itself in it's creations. So in a
way we are the body and mind of IT. I didn't put it very well but when you talk
on this level it is hard to find the right words. Why this happened I have no
idea.
Diana

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Diana,
> interesting and thought provoking!
> I see it somewhat semantically
> different (I think).
>
> Maybe it's that all consciousness
> Is divided into individual states/
> units/Souls. But I also see that
> all "units" are unified and share
> the (non-religious) Divine essence
> of Being. I don't really see the
> "atom" correlation as much since
> human thoughts are extremely
> powerful while not containing
> atoms, although, thoughts can
> control and manipulate atoms
> in/of the physical universe.
>
> I don't see that consciousness
> is comprised of atoms, either,
> since thoughts are not comprised
> of atoms, although, the atoms
> that comprise our bodies and
> minds create thoughts (dreams)
> and individual consciousness.
> Brain chemistry and its pathways
> are important, as well, so sometimes
> it's the arrangement of various
> atoms and their interactions
> with/to one another.
>
> I will say that it appears that
> there are almost infinite degrees
> and combinations for these atoms
> to be arranged and to function
> at any given point in time. Thus,
> "Truth" becomes more a social/
> religious/scientific term and
> theory is merely a degree of
> faith via observation.
>
> As far as consciousness remaining
> after the individual dies... I don't
> know. Where is it? What impact does
> it have, and on whom or what? Who
> says it does remain and how do they
> know? It sounds like a nice thought
> and a reassuring pov, but....? Then,
> again, there's the "Soul" view which
> is very similar.
>
> The one thing that I've observed and
> experienced is that there are individual
> (Soul) patterns, choices, and fate, as
> well as, "nudges" and quiet "whispers"
> that we all experience during our lives.
> IMO, people are merely the human/individual
> and physical expressions of the Divine
> Consciousness while Soul/Spirit is the
> conduit and observer within. However,
> many are unaware of or reject this, and
> similar philosophies, and choose to follow
> ego and/or religion.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> dianastanley wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone. I have come to the understanding for my self, that
counciousness is not divided into individual souls. It is one and when a form is
available it manifestest as it needs a vehicle in which to know it self. Someone
said counciousness is like a whale looking at its own tail. we are the tail.
Because we are in seppret forms counsessness itdendifies with the individual
form and comes to believe it is seperat from all other forms. We are tought that
as children. We have a name and a body that is male or female. we are different
from everyone else.
>
> > Every living form from flowers to people have an atom of counciousness in
it.
> > when the body dies counciousness returns to itself.
> > of course that may be all bullsh-t but right now I believe it!
> > Diana
>
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Tyson,
> > > Welcome to the site. I'd like
> > > to respond to your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tyson wrote:
> > >
> > > "Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are eternal thus we
always
> > > manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT THIS WORLD THAT
WE ARE
> > > NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some spiritual experiences
> > > unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job, or be a mediocre
fiction
> > > writer, or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big lie of mahanta
> > > consciousness."
> > >
> > >
> > > ME: IMO all religions are false teachings.
> > > One can only come to "Know" about Soul,
> > > ETC. from personal and private experiences
> > > during a lifetime. Tick tock, tick tock... time
> > > is running out for Eckists to see beyond the
> > > false teachings of Twitchell and Klemp. We
> > > are both dual as Soul and as persons and,
> > > yet, we are one with one another via the
> > > Divine essence/creative/destructive force.
> > >
> > >
> > > "There are spiritual travelers (masters, Jesus, Siddharta, Krishna ect..)
paul
> > > was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body experiences and a
con mans
> > > mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken in us what we
already
> > > know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which is learning to
open the
> > > spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the celestial sound
current.
> > > To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in his own self
seeking
> > > vanity, used something beautiful and sacred for his own selfish means. Sat
nam
> > > means truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches love, he hides
from the
> > > truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come to believe that
> > > selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant to be a religion
only
> > > ameans to awaken to spirit, never meant for profit. The nine silent ones
do
> > > exist yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction."
> > >
> > >
> > > ME: Those mentioned above were
> > > "extroverted" masters. However,
> > > IMO, there are many more who are
> > > "introverted" masters and many of
> > > those live "now" and are/were not
> > > of the ancient past. Today, most
> > > extroverts have demonic, self-centered
> > > (and more negative versus positive)
> > > tendencies/characteristics. It's become
> > > a bipolar narcissistic world.
> > >
> > > BTW- The Spiritual Eye or Tisra Til
> > > is merely the 6th Astral Chakra. The
> > > 7th or Crown Chakra is easier to use
> > > in order to leave the body through
> > > the top of the head.
> > >
> > > Also, The Path of the Masters gives
> > > another name for God other than
> > > Ek Ong Kar... it's Ekankar. Paul added
> > > the "c."
> > >
> > > And, I don't believe in any Nine Silent
> > > Ones nor anything coming from Sant
> > > Mat. It's all bullshit. One cannot share
> > > their truth as a religion. One can take
> > > and use some of what another has
> > > learned via their own revelations into
> > > the Divine in order to prime one's own
> > > pump, so to speak, but after that it's
> > > up to You directing You.
> > >
> > > We all need to become our own spiritual
> > > leader/teacher and take responsibility
> > > instead of following others. I'll admit
> > > that Jesus did have some very good
> > > lessons to teach. Unfortunately, those
> > > who lead us today, religious/political,
> > > cannot hold a candle to those teachings.
> > > They all give lip service to those lessons
> > > of love, empathy, tolerance, forgiveness,
> > > and compassion. Look at Klemp! Did he
> > > forgive Darwin? No! HK's never even mentioned
> > > Darwin's death! Yet, Darwin gave Harold
> > > almost all of his initiations including the
> > > 12th! People, like Klemp, are hypocrites
> > > who say one thing and and do another.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> >
>

"I believe God, so to speak, can only be aware of itself in it's
creations."

That was very profound Diane. I thought your other message was, too.

-----Original Message-----
From: dianastanley43 <dianastanley43@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
<EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 27, 2011 12:29 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: a grain of truth

 
I'm afraid my quantum phyisics is showing.Instead of atom you could say
unit of counciousness. I  see counciousness as something all things
exist in not that it exists in us although it seems like it as we are
used to feeling sepperate from all other things.
I believe God,so to speak,can only beaware of itself in it's creations.
So in a way we are the body and mind of IT. I didn't put it very well
but when you talk on this level it is hard to find the right words. Why
this happened I have no idea.
Diana

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Diana,
> interesting and thought provoking!
> I see it somewhat semantically
> different (I think).
>
> Maybe it's that all consciousness
> Is divided into individual states/
> units/Souls. But I also see that
> all "units" are unified and share
> the (non-religious) Divine essence
> of Being. I don't really see the
> "atom" correlation as much since
> human thoughts are extremely
> powerful while not containing
> atoms, although, thoughts can
> control and manipulate atoms
> in/of the physical universe.
>
> I don't see that consciousness
> is comprised of atoms, either,
> since thoughts are not comprised
> of atoms, although, the atoms
> that comprise our bodies and
> minds create thoughts (dreams)
> and individual consciousness.
> Brain chemistry and its pathways
> are important, as well, so sometimes
> it's the arrangement of various
> atoms and their interactions
> with/to one another.
>
> I will say that it appears that
> there are almost infinite degrees
> and combinations for these atoms
> to be arranged and to function
> at any given point in time. Thus,
> "Truth" becomes more a social/
> religious/scientific term and
> theory is merely a degree of
> faith via observation.
>
> As far as consciousness remaining
> after the individual dies... I don't
> know. Where is it? What impact does
> it have, and on whom or what? Who
> says it does remain and how do they
> know? It sounds like a nice thought
> and a reassuring pov, but....? Then,
> again, there's the "Soul" view which
> is very similar.
>
> The one thing that I've observed and
> experienced is that there are individual
> (Soul) patterns, choices, and fate, as
> well as, "nudges" and quiet "whispers"
> that we all experience during our lives.
> IMO, people are merely the human/individual
> and physical expressions of the Divine
> Consciousness while Soul/Spirit is the
> conduit and observer within. However,
> many are unaware of or reject this, and
> similar philosophies, and choose to follow
> ego and/or religion.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> dianastanley wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone. I have come to the understanding for my self,
that counciousness is not divided into individual souls. It is one and
when a form is available it manifestest as it needs a vehicle in which
to know it self. Someone said counciousness is like a whale looking at
its own tail. we are the tail. Because we are in seppret forms
counsessness itdendifies with the individual form and comes to believe
it is seperat from all other forms. We are tought that as children. We
have a name and a body that is male or female. we are different from
everyone else.
>
> > Every living form from flowers to people have an atom of
counciousness in it.
> > when the body dies counciousness returns to itself.
> > of course that may be all bullsh-t but right now I believe it!
> > Diana
>
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
"prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Tyson,
> > > Welcome to the site. I'd like
> > > to respond to your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tyson wrote:
> > >
> > > "Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are
eternal thus we always
> > > manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT
THIS WORLD THAT WE ARE
> > > NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some
spiritual experiences
> > > unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job, or
be a mediocre fiction
> > > writer, or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big
lie of mahanta
> > > consciousness."
> > >
> > >
> > > ME: IMO all religions are false teachings.
> > > One can only come to "Know" about Soul,
> > > ETC. from personal and private experiences
> > > during a lifetime. Tick tock, tick tock... time
> > > is running out for Eckists to see beyond the
> > > false teachings of Twitchell and Klemp. We
> > > are both dual as Soul and as persons and,
> > > yet, we are one with one another via the
> > > Divine essence/creative/destructive force.
> > >
> > >
> > > "There are spiritual travelers (masters, Jesus,
Siddharta, Krishna ect..) paul
> > > was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body
experiences and a con mans
> > > mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken
in us what we already
> > > know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which
is learning to open the
> > > spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the
celestial sound current.
> > > To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in
his own self seeking
> > > vanity, used something beautiful and sacred for his own
selfish means. Sat nam
> > > means truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches
love, he hides from the
> > > truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come
to believe that
> > > selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant
to be a religion only
> > > ameans to awaken to spirit, never meant for profit. The
nine silent ones do
> > > exist yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction."
> > >
> > >
> > > ME: Those mentioned above were
> > > "extroverted" masters. However,
> > > IMO, there are many more who are
> > > "introverted" masters and many of
> > > those live "now" and are/were not
> > > of the ancient past. Today, most
> > > extroverts have demonic, self-centered
> > > (and more negative versus positive)
> > > tendencies/characteristics. It's become
> > > a bipolar narcissistic world.
> > >
> > > BTW- The Spiritual Eye or Tisra Til
> > > is merely the 6th Astral Chakra. The
> > > 7th or Crown Chakra is easier to use
> > > in order to leave the body through
> > > the top of the head.
> > >
> > > Also, The Path of the Masters gives
> > > another name for God other than
> > > Ek Ong Kar... it's Ekankar. Paul added
> > > the "c."
> > >
> > > And, I don't believe in any Nine Silent
> > > Ones nor anything coming from Sant
> > > Mat. It's all bullshit. One cannot share
> > > their truth as a religion. One can take
> > > and use some of what another has
> > > learned via their own revelations into
> > > the Divine in order to prime one's own
> > > pump, so to speak, but after that it's
> > > up to You directing You.
> > >
> > > We all need to become our own spiritual
> > > leader/teacher and take responsibility
> > > instead of following others. I'll admit
> > > that Jesus did have some very good
> > > lessons to teach. Unfortunately, those
> > > who lead us today, religious/political,
> > > cannot hold a candle to those teachings.
> > > They all give lip service to those lessons
> > > of love, empathy, tolerance, forgiveness,
> > > and compassion. Look at Klemp! Did he
> > > forgive Darwin? No! HK's never even mentioned
> > > Darwin's death! Yet, Darwin gave Harold
> > > almost all of his initiations including the
> > > 12th! People, like Klemp, are hypocrites
> > > who say one thing and and do another.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> >
>

Hello Diana and All,
I try to steer away from
any mention of "Quantum
Physics or Quantum Mechanics"
because I don't understand
it and because too many
scammers use these terms
as catch words.

Way back, after the Beatles
and before Eckankar, I was
a TMer and followed Maharishi.
He only had a Bachelors degree
in Physics (I was told), but spoke
as an expert on Quantum Mechanics
in relation to Transcendental
Meditation (TM) and Unity Consciousness.

Another scammer (from Canada)
who claims to use Quantum Physics,
in healing, is Adam Dreamhealer.
I'm surprised Klemp hasn't used
this approach to spirituality.

Yes, it would be logical that what
we call "God" (by various names)
would be conscious of Itself. The
question is more along the line
of, How much (if any) of this GOD
Consciousness can we experience?
I guess that, too, depends upon
us and each personal, conscious,
and subconscious definition of
who or what God is, as well as,
numerous other subjective factors.

We could say, and assume,
that God is all consciousness
and that this consciousness
holds the physical universe(s)
together while influencing
other matter and non-matter.

Could the universe be on auto
pilot? Or, are there other factors?
Maybe not!


But, if God is everything, then,
It is part of us and we are part
of It. However, to what degree
is our consciousness in proportion
to God's consciousness? Does
our intellect factor into this equation?
To what degree are we able to
visualize, imagine, dream, or
delude ourselves? Why do we
worship and follow others when
what they (supposedly) say/said
and do/did was their own individual
glimpse (or not) into the God
Consciousness?

A true teacher shows one "how"
to think, Not "what" to think!

Anyway, it's an interesting
topic and is difficult to approach
without sounding like I'm parroting
someone or something else as
the Eckists and other religionists
do. Critical thinking seems to be
a mind function that religionists
have relinquished over blind faith.

Prometheus




dianastanley wrote:
I'm afraid my quantum phyisics
is showing. Instead of atom you
could say unit of counciousness.
I see counciousness as something
all things exist in not that it exists
in us although it seems like it as
we are used to feeling sepperate
from all other things.

I believe God, so to speak, can
only beaware of itself in it's creations.
So in a way we are the body and
mind of IT. I didn't put it very well
but when you talk on this level it
is hard to find the right words.
Why this happened I have no
idea.

Diana

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Diana,
> interesting and thought provoking!
> I see it somewhat semantically
> different (I think).
>
> Maybe it's that all consciousness
> Is divided into individual states/
> units/Souls. But I also see that
> all "units" are unified and share
> the (non-religious) Divine essence
> of Being. I don't really see the
> "atom" correlation as much since
> human thoughts are extremely
> powerful while not containing
> atoms, although, thoughts can
> control and manipulate atoms
> in/of the physical universe.
>
> I don't see that consciousness
> is comprised of atoms, either,
> since thoughts are not comprised
> of atoms, although, the atoms
> that comprise our bodies and
> minds create thoughts (dreams)
> and individual consciousness.
> Brain chemistry and its pathways
> are important, as well, so sometimes
> it's the arrangement of various
> atoms and their interactions
> with/to one another.
>
> I will say that it appears that
> there are almost infinite degrees
> and combinations for these atoms
> to be arranged and to function
> at any given point in time. Thus,
> "Truth" becomes more a social/
> religious/scientific term and
> theory is merely a degree of
> faith via observation.
>
> As far as consciousness remaining
> after the individual dies... I don't
> know. Where is it? What impact does
> it have, and on whom or what? Who
> says it does remain and how do they
> know? It sounds like a nice thought
> and a reassuring pov, but....? Then,
> again, there's the "Soul" view which
> is very similar.
>
> The one thing that I've observed and
> experienced is that there are individual
> (Soul) patterns, choices, and fate, as
> well as, "nudges" and quiet "whispers"
> that we all experience during our lives.
> IMO, people are merely the human/individual
> and physical expressions of the Divine
> Consciousness while Soul/Spirit is the
> conduit and observer within. However,
> many are unaware of or reject this, and
> similar philosophies, and choose to follow
> ego and/or religion.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> dianastanley wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone. I have come to the understanding for my self, that
counciousness is not divided into individual souls. It is one and when a form is
available it manifestest as it needs a vehicle in which to know it self. Someone
said counciousness is like a whale looking at its own tail. we are the tail.
Because we are in seppret forms counsessness itdendifies with the individual
form and comes to believe it is seperat from all other forms. We are tought that
as children. We have a name and a body that is male or female. we are different
from everyone else.
>
> > Every living form from flowers to people have an atom of counciousness in
it.
> > when the body dies counciousness returns to itself.
> > of course that may be all bullsh-t but right now I believe it!
> > Diana
>
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Tyson,
> > > Welcome to the site. I'd like
> > > to respond to your comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tyson wrote:
> > >
> > > "Eckankars grain of truth is that we are soul and we are eternal thus we
always
> > > manifest somewhere in gods kingdom. IT IS AN ILLUSION OT THIS WORLD THAT
WE ARE
> > > NOT ALREADY IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD. Paul had some spiritual experiences
> > > unfortunately he was unwilling to work a regular job, or be a mediocre
fiction
> > > writer, or just another spiritual writer. Thus the big lie of mahanta
> > > consciousness."
> > >
> > >
> > > ME: IMO all religions are false teachings.
> > > One can only come to "Know" about Soul,
> > > ETC. from personal and private experiences
> > > during a lifetime. Tick tock, tick tock... time
> > > is running out for Eckists to see beyond the
> > > false teachings of Twitchell and Klemp. We
> > > are both dual as Soul and as persons and,
> > > yet, we are one with one another via the
> > > Divine essence/creative/destructive force.
> > >
> > >
> > > "There are spiritual travelers (masters, Jesus, Siddharta, Krishna ect..)
paul
> > > was not one of them. He had some cool out of the body experiences and a
con mans
> > > mind.Teachers or masters are there only to help awaken in us what we
already
> > > know but have forgotten. I myself practice Sahaji which is learning to
open the
> > > spiritual eye so one can see and hear the music of the celestial sound
current.
> > > To have an experience with this is a blessing. Paul in his own self
seeking
> > > vanity, used something beautiful and sacred for his own selfish means. Sat
nam
> > > means truth. Regardless of the fact that harold teaches love, he hides
from the
> > > truth also for selfish means. In this world I have come to believe that
> > > selfishness is the first sin. Ek Ong Kar was never meant to be a religion
only
> > > ameans to awaken to spirit, never meant for profit. The nine silent ones
do
> > > exist yet another grain ot truth in pauls fiction."
> > >
> > >
> > > ME: Those mentioned above were
> > > "extroverted" masters. However,
> > > IMO, there are many more who are
> > > "introverted" masters and many of
> > > those live "now" and are/were not
> > > of the ancient past. Today, most
> > > extroverts have demonic, self-centered
> > > (and more negative versus positive)
> > > tendencies/characteristics. It's become
> > > a bipolar narcissistic world.
> > >
> > > BTW- The Spiritual Eye or Tisra Til
> > > is merely the 6th Astral Chakra. The
> > > 7th or Crown Chakra is easier to use
> > > in order to leave the body through
> > > the top of the head.
> > >
> > > Also, The Path of the Masters gives
> > > another name for God other than
> > > Ek Ong Kar... it's Ekankar. Paul added
> > > the "c."
> > >
> > > And, I don't believe in any Nine Silent
> > > Ones nor anything coming from Sant
> > > Mat. It's all bullshit. One cannot share
> > > their truth as a religion. One can take
> > > and use some of what another has
> > > learned via their own revelations into
> > > the Divine in order to prime one's own
> > > pump, so to speak, but after that it's
> > > up to You directing You.
> > >
> > > We all need to become our own spiritual
> > > leader/teacher and take responsibility
> > > instead of following others. I'll admit
> > > that Jesus did have some very good
> > > lessons to teach. Unfortunately, those
> > > who lead us today, religious/political,
> > > cannot hold a candle to those teachings.
> > > They all give lip service to those lessons
> > > of love, empathy, tolerance, forgiveness,
> > > and compassion. Look at Klemp! Did he
> > > forgive Darwin? No! HK's never even mentioned
> > > Darwin's death! Yet, Darwin gave Harold
> > > almost all of his initiations including the
> > > 12th! People, like Klemp, are hypocrites
> > > who say one thing and and do another.
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus

Hello All,
It's interesting that Harold
Klemp, spiritual leader of
Eckankar, will make third
person statements such as,
"The Mahanta will steer you
in the right direction if you
let him." Then, of course,
he'll tell a story that some
trusting follower snail mailed
to him about how he/she
came to need Klemp. If it
wasn't for the U.S. Post Office
there would be little to no
(actual) communication with
Klemp and his deluded followers
except, of course, in their
dreams. But, that's because
HK has programmed chelas
to think and dream of him
constantly and to call upon
him (the Mahanta) for even
mundane decisions and daily
needs! The Parking Space
Angel is pissed!

Anyway, Klemp will say things
like, "... the Mahanta, the Living
ECK Master (LEM) had made a
point about paying for Karma
as it came up." This is said in
order to tie the "outer" LEM, Klemp,
to the "inner" Mahanta (Consciousness).

Isn't it strange, if one uses logic
and common sense and really thinks
about it, as to why past fictional
ECK Masters and "Full" Mahantas
like Rebazar Tarzs no longer have
the Mahanta Consciousness, only,
because they are no longer Mahantas?
Or do they? But why does Klemp
associate and identify his Mahanta
position to his own personality,
as LEM, with its arrested social development?
HK's finally become the B.M.O.C!

Why can't these former Mahantas
take over, or share, the chelas'
spiritual "inner" growth? Besides,
why do H.I.s really need an "outer"
Physical Plane Master (Klemp) who
simply repeats or points out the
obvious in his simple minded stories
which fine tune chelas' testimonials
for the 5,000, or so, glassy-eyed
introverted faithful (current paid
members).

That's another interesting factor.

The extroverted members of
Eckankar, usually, have the Higher
Initiations. Or, are they "pretending"
to be extroverted? There's a lot
of pretending taking place in
Eckanakar.

I can see the passing of the Rod
of ECK Power myth/lie for the
leadership of Eckankar, but what's
that have to do with being the
boss over the "Ancient" Order of
Vairagi ECK Masters? Nothing!
Except, this "story" also solidifies
the power of the LEM who inherited
Twitchell's scam i.e. Eckankar.
First, Gross, then and now, Klemp!
Plus, it gives credence to the myth
that there's an ancient linage in
order to rewrite history using PT's
twists. But, Twitchell didn't do
anything that hasn't been done
before... look at the Book of Mormon!

Paul Twitchell needed an ancient
lineage of invisible ECK Masters
in order to create Rebazar to initiate
him. This supposedly gave/gives
Twitchell's words (EK Dogma) authority.

However, Paul Twitchell (PT), and
Harold Klemp (HK) slipped up on
some time-lines.

Twitchell, in the book "The Difficulties
Of Becoming the Living ECK Master,"
which contains June 1971 interviews,
states that he was "almost 16 years
old" when he went to India from Paris,
for the "1st" time, (and with his sister
Kay-Dee). This is when he was, supposedly,
handed off by 970th LEM Sudar (a.k.a.
Kirpal) Singh to Rebazar and, thus,
PT received several more initiations
(beyond the 2nd) from Rebazar.

[PT was born in 1908, according
to the copyright page of the 2000
Combined Shariyats. (Also, it's been
pointed out, and ECK Higher Initiate
Doug Marman has confirmed it, that
Paul's sister was actually studying
art in Paris, Kentucky and not Paris,
France. This was, yet, another misdirection
and exaggeration by Twitchell]

Harold Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
has stated that at age 27 P.T. was
"exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
and that Twitchell (at that time)
had "never been all that far from
home."

Later, supposedly (circa 1951) on
a "2nd" trip to India, PT claims that
Rebazar gave him more initiations
and the final (12th) initiation. Klemp
overlooks the time-lines and the
fact that Twitchell (a proven liar
pointed out by Klemp himself!)
claims he went to India on a "2nd"
trip to meet Rebazar.

Plus, Doug Marman has verified
the written evidence that Twitchell
created the Mahanta title in January,
1969. This is when Twitchell first
mentions the Mahanta in two EK
publications. If Twitchell was given
the 12th Initiation (on a 2nd visit
to India) in 1951 by Rebazar why
wouldn't PT have known that
Rebazar was the current "Mahanta?"

The reasons that PT created the
ultimate and highest Master title
was for several reasons: He wanted
to spite his former Ruhani Satsang
Master, Kirpal Singh, who he had
a fight with over The Tiger's Fang
manuscript due to embellishments;
there was a problem with a former
member, John Rogers-Hinkle, using
EK discourses to set-up his own
religion; there was internal strife
because Twitchell promised to step
down after five years, but after
Eckankar took off (1968) PT changed
his mind; and let's not forget that
Paul was a jokester and a narcissist
with an inflated ego! Do you see it?
Eckankar is a scam, a joke, a vocation,
and a lie! None of these LEMs ever
had a steady job before Eckankar!

Therefore, Eckankar, the Religion of
the Light and Sound of God (versus
Sugmad their real "God"), is simply
another religious crutch that is male
run and controlled. It's filled with
myth, lies and distortions. It requires
one's desperate imagination to fill-in
the blanks and supply hope. This
fulfills the needs and desires of
the, mostly, good natured followers.

The ECK initiations are the carrot that
is dangled in front of the mule (chela)
that keeps the cart (Eckankar) slowly
moving along on a narrow, bumpy,
dirt road while the driver (Klemp) whistles
the same merry little tune.


Prometheus


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> It's interesting that Harold
> Klemp, spiritual leader of
> Eckankar, will make third
> person statements such as,
> "The Mahanta will steer you
> in the right direction if you
> let him." Then, of course,
> he'll tell a story that some
> trusting follower snail mailed
> to him about how he/she
> came to need Klemp. If it
> wasn't for the U.S. Post Office
> there would be little to no
> (actual) communication with
> Klemp and his deluded followers
> except, of course, in their
> dreams. But, that's because
> HK has programmed chelas
> to think and dream of him
> constantly and to call upon
> him (the Mahanta) for even
> mundane decisions and daily
> needs! The Parking Space
> Angel is pissed!
>
> Anyway, Klemp will say things
> like, "... the Mahanta, the Living
> ECK Master (LEM) had made a
> point about paying for Karma
> as it came up." This is said in
> order to tie the "outer" LEM, Klemp,
> to the "inner" Mahanta (Consciousness).
>
> Isn't it strange, if one uses logic
> and common sense and really thinks
> about it, as to why past fictional
> ECK Masters and "Full" Mahantas
> like Rebazar Tarzs no longer have
> the Mahanta Consciousness, only,
> because they are no longer Mahantas?
> Or do they? But why does Klemp
> associate and identify his Mahanta
> position to his own personality,
> as LEM, with its arrested social development?
> HK's finally become the B.M.O.C!
>
> Why can't these former Mahantas
> take over, or share, the chelas'
> spiritual "inner" growth? Besides,
> why do H.I.s really need an "outer"
> Physical Plane Master (Klemp) who
> simply repeats or points out the
> obvious in his simple minded stories
> which fine tune chelas' testimonials
> for the 5,000, or so, glassy-eyed
> introverted faithful (current paid
> members).
>
> That's another interesting factor.
>
> The extroverted members of
> Eckankar, usually, have the Higher
> Initiations. Or, are they "pretending"
> to be extroverted? There's a lot
> of pretending taking place in
> Eckanakar.
>
> I can see the passing of the Rod
> of ECK Power myth/lie for the
> leadership of Eckankar, but what's
> that have to do with being the
> boss over the "Ancient" Order of
> Vairagi ECK Masters? Nothing!
> Except, this "story" also solidifies
> the power of the LEM who inherited
> Twitchell's scam i.e. Eckankar.
> First, Gross, then and now, Klemp!
> Plus, it gives credence to the myth
> that there's an ancient linage in
> order to rewrite history using PT's
> twists. But, Twitchell didn't do
> anything that hasn't been done
> before... look at the Book of Mormon!
>
> Paul Twitchell needed an ancient
> lineage of invisible ECK Masters
> in order to create Rebazar to initiate
> him. This supposedly gave/gives
> Twitchell's words (EK Dogma) authority.
>
> However, Paul Twitchell (PT), and
> Harold Klemp (HK) slipped up on
> some time-lines.
>
> Twitchell, in the book "The Difficulties
> Of Becoming the Living ECK Master,"
> which contains June 1971 interviews,
> states that he was "almost 16 years
> old" when he went to India from Paris,
> for the "1st" time, (and with his sister
> Kay-Dee). This is when he was, supposedly,
> handed off by 970th LEM Sudar (a.k.a.
> Kirpal) Singh to Rebazar and, thus,
> PT received several more initiations
> (beyond the 2nd) from Rebazar.
>
> [PT was born in 1908, according
> to the copyright page of the 2000
> Combined Shariyats. (Also, it's been
> pointed out, and ECK Higher Initiate
> Doug Marman has confirmed it, that
> Paul's sister was actually studying
> art in Paris, Kentucky and not Paris,
> France. This was, yet, another misdirection
> and exaggeration by Twitchell]
>
> Harold Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
> has stated that at age 27 P.T. was
> "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
> to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
> and that Twitchell (at that time)
> had "never been all that far from
> home."
>
> Later, supposedly (circa 1951) on
> a "2nd" trip to India, PT claims that
> Rebazar gave him more initiations
> and the final (12th) initiation. Klemp
> overlooks the time-lines and the
> fact that Twitchell (a proven liar
> pointed out by Klemp himself!)
> claims he went to India on a "2nd"
> trip to meet Rebazar.
>
> Plus, once again, Doug Marman
> once admitted that Twitchell created
> the Mahanta title for himself in
> January, 1969. If given the 12th
> Initiation in 1951 why would PT
> know about Rebazar being the
> "Mahanta?" See, it's all a lie!
>
> Therefore, Eckankar, the Religion of
> the Light and Sound of God (versus
> Sugmad their real "God"), is simply
> another religious crutch that is male
> run and controlled. It's filled with
> myth, lies and distortions. It requires
> one's desperate imagination to fill-in
> the blanks and supply hope. This
> fulfills the needs and desires of
> the, mostly, good natured followers.
>
> The ECK initiations are the carrot that
> is dangled in front of the mule (chela)
> that keeps the cart (Eckankar) slowly
> moving along on a narrow, bumpy,
> dirt road while the driver (Klemp) whistles
> the same merry little tune.
>
>
> Prometheus
>

Prometheus, you crack me up!
Diana

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> It's interesting that Harold
> Klemp, spiritual leader of
> Eckankar, will make third
> person statements such as,
> "The Mahanta will steer you
> in the right direction if you
> let him." Then, of course,
> he'll tell a story that some
> trusting follower snail mailed
> to him about how he/she
> came to need Klemp. If it
> wasn't for the U.S. Post Office
> there would be little to no
> (actual) communication with
> Klemp and his deluded followers
> except, of course, in their
> dreams. But, that's because
> HK has programmed chelas
> to think and dream of him
> constantly and to call upon
> him (the Mahanta) for even
> mundane decisions and daily
> needs! The Parking Space
> Angel is pissed!
>
> Anyway, Klemp will say things
> like, "... the Mahanta, the Living
> ECK Master (LEM) had made a
> point about paying for Karma
> as it came up." This is said in
> order to tie the "outer" LEM, Klemp,
> to the "inner" Mahanta (Consciousness).
>
> Isn't it strange, if one uses logic
> and common sense and really thinks
> about it, as to why past fictional
> ECK Masters and "Full" Mahantas
> like Rebazar Tarzs no longer have
> the Mahanta Consciousness, only,
> because they are no longer Mahantas?
> Or do they? But why does Klemp
> associate and identify his Mahanta
> position to his own personality,
> as LEM, with its arrested social development?
> HK's finally become the B.M.O.C!
>
> Why can't these former Mahantas
> take over, or share, the chelas'
> spiritual "inner" growth? Besides,
> why do H.I.s really need an "outer"
> Physical Plane Master (Klemp) who
> simply repeats or points out the
> obvious in his simple minded stories
> which fine tune chelas' testimonials
> for the 5,000, or so, glassy-eyed
> introverted faithful (current paid
> members).
>
> That's another interesting factor.
>
> The extroverted members of
> Eckankar, usually, have the Higher
> Initiations. Or, are they "pretending"
> to be extroverted? There's a lot
> of pretending taking place in
> Eckanakar.
>
> I can see the passing of the Rod
> of ECK Power myth/lie for the
> leadership of Eckankar, but what's
> that have to do with being the
> boss over the "Ancient" Order of
> Vairagi ECK Masters? Nothing!
> Except, this "story" also solidifies
> the power of the LEM who inherited
> Twitchell's scam i.e. Eckankar.
> First, Gross, then and now, Klemp!
> Plus, it gives credence to the myth
> that there's an ancient linage in
> order to rewrite history using PT's
> twists. But, Twitchell didn't do
> anything that hasn't been done
> before... look at the Book of Mormon!
>
> Paul Twitchell needed an ancient
> lineage of invisible ECK Masters
> in order to create Rebazar to initiate
> him. This supposedly gave/gives
> Twitchell's words (EK Dogma) authority.
>
> However, Paul Twitchell (PT), and
> Harold Klemp (HK) slipped up on
> some time-lines.
>
> Twitchell, in the book "The Difficulties
> Of Becoming the Living ECK Master,"
> which contains June 1971 interviews,
> states that he was "almost 16 years
> old" when he went to India from Paris,
> for the "1st" time, (and with his sister
> Kay-Dee). This is when he was, supposedly,
> handed off by 970th LEM Sudar (a.k.a.
> Kirpal) Singh to Rebazar and, thus,
> PT received several more initiations
> (beyond the 2nd) from Rebazar.
>
> [PT was born in 1908, according
> to the copyright page of the 2000
> Combined Shariyats. (Also, it's been
> pointed out, and ECK Higher Initiate
> Doug Marman has confirmed it, that
> Paul's sister was actually studying
> art in Paris, Kentucky and not Paris,
> France. This was, yet, another misdirection
> and exaggeration by Twitchell]
>
> Harold Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
> has stated that at age 27 P.T. was
> "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
> to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
> and that Twitchell (at that time)
> had "never been all that far from
> home."
>
> Later, supposedly (circa 1951) on
> a "2nd" trip to India, PT claims that
> Rebazar gave him more initiations
> and the final (12th) initiation. Klemp
> overlooks the time-lines and the
> fact that Twitchell (a proven liar
> pointed out by Klemp himself!)
> claims he went to India on a "2nd"
> trip to meet Rebazar.
>
> Plus, Doug Marman has verified
> the written evidence that Twitchell
> created the Mahanta title in January,
> 1969. This is when Twitchell first
> mentions the Mahanta in two EK
> publications. If Twitchell was given
> the 12th Initiation (on a 2nd visit
> to India) in 1951 by Rebazar why
> wouldn't PT have known that
> Rebazar was the current "Mahanta?"
>
> The reasons that PT created the
> ultimate and highest Master title
> was for several reasons: He wanted
> to spite his former Ruhani Satsang
> Master, Kirpal Singh, who he had
> a fight with over The Tiger's Fang
> manuscript due to embellishments;
> there was a problem with a former
> member, John Rogers-Hinkle, using
> EK discourses to set-up his own
> religion; there was internal strife
> because Twitchell promised to step
> down after five years, but after
> Eckankar took off (1968) PT changed
> his mind; and let's not forget that
> Paul was a jokester and a narcissist
> with an inflated ego! Do you see it?
> Eckankar is a scam, a joke, a vocation,
> and a lie! None of these LEMs ever
> had a steady job before Eckankar!
>
> Therefore, Eckankar, the Religion of
> the Light and Sound of God (versus
> Sugmad their real "God"), is simply
> another religious crutch that is male
> run and controlled. It's filled with
> myth, lies and distortions. It requires
> one's desperate imagination to fill-in
> the blanks and supply hope. This
> fulfills the needs and desires of
> the, mostly, good natured followers.
>
> The ECK initiations are the carrot that
> is dangled in front of the mule (chela)
> that keeps the cart (Eckankar) slowly
> moving along on a narrow, bumpy,
> dirt road while the driver (Klemp) whistles
> the same merry little tune.
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > It's interesting that Harold
> > Klemp, spiritual leader of
> > Eckankar, will make third
> > person statements such as,
> > "The Mahanta will steer you
> > in the right direction if you
> > let him." Then, of course,
> > he'll tell a story that some
> > trusting follower snail mailed
> > to him about how he/she
> > came to need Klemp. If it
> > wasn't for the U.S. Post Office
> > there would be little to no
> > (actual) communication with
> > Klemp and his deluded followers
> > except, of course, in their
> > dreams. But, that's because
> > HK has programmed chelas
> > to think and dream of him
> > constantly and to call upon
> > him (the Mahanta) for even
> > mundane decisions and daily
> > needs! The Parking Space
> > Angel is pissed!
> >
> > Anyway, Klemp will say things
> > like, "... the Mahanta, the Living
> > ECK Master (LEM) had made a
> > point about paying for Karma
> > as it came up." This is said in
> > order to tie the "outer" LEM, Klemp,
> > to the "inner" Mahanta (Consciousness).
> >
> > Isn't it strange, if one uses logic
> > and common sense and really thinks
> > about it, as to why past fictional
> > ECK Masters and "Full" Mahantas
> > like Rebazar Tarzs no longer have
> > the Mahanta Consciousness, only,
> > because they are no longer Mahantas?
> > Or do they? But why does Klemp
> > associate and identify his Mahanta
> > position to his own personality,
> > as LEM, with its arrested social development?
> > HK's finally become the B.M.O.C!
> >
> > Why can't these former Mahantas
> > take over, or share, the chelas'
> > spiritual "inner" growth? Besides,
> > why do H.I.s really need an "outer"
> > Physical Plane Master (Klemp) who
> > simply repeats or points out the
> > obvious in his simple minded stories
> > which fine tune chelas' testimonials
> > for the 5,000, or so, glassy-eyed
> > introverted faithful (current paid
> > members).
> >
> > That's another interesting factor.
> >
> > The extroverted members of
> > Eckankar, usually, have the Higher
> > Initiations. Or, are they "pretending"
> > to be extroverted? There's a lot
> > of pretending taking place in
> > Eckanakar.
> >
> > I can see the passing of the Rod
> > of ECK Power myth/lie for the
> > leadership of Eckankar, but what's
> > that have to do with being the
> > boss over the "Ancient" Order of
> > Vairagi ECK Masters? Nothing!
> > Except, this "story" also solidifies
> > the power of the LEM who inherited
> > Twitchell's scam i.e. Eckankar.
> > First, Gross, then and now, Klemp!
> > Plus, it gives credence to the myth
> > that there's an ancient linage in
> > order to rewrite history using PT's
> > twists. But, Twitchell didn't do
> > anything that hasn't been done
> > before... look at the Book of Mormon!
> >
> > Paul Twitchell needed an ancient
> > lineage of invisible ECK Masters
> > in order to create Rebazar to initiate
> > him. This supposedly gave/gives
> > Twitchell's words (EK Dogma) authority.
> >
> > However, Paul Twitchell (PT), and
> > Harold Klemp (HK) slipped up on
> > some time-lines.
> >
> > Twitchell, in the book "The Difficulties
> > Of Becoming the Living ECK Master,"
> > which contains June 1971 interviews,
> > states that he was "almost 16 years
> > old" when he went to India from Paris,
> > for the "1st" time, (and with his sister
> > Kay-Dee). This is when he was, supposedly,
> > handed off by 970th LEM Sudar (a.k.a.
> > Kirpal) Singh to Rebazar and, thus,
> > PT received several more initiations
> > (beyond the 2nd) from Rebazar.
> >
> > [PT was born in 1908, according
> > to the copyright page of the 2000
> > Combined Shariyats. (Also, it's been
> > pointed out, and ECK Higher Initiate
> > Doug Marman has confirmed it, that
> > Paul's sister was actually studying
> > art in Paris, Kentucky and not Paris,
> > France. This was, yet, another misdirection
> > and exaggeration by Twitchell]
> >
> > Harold Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
> > has stated that at age 27 P.T. was
> > "exaggerating" and "twisting facts"
> > to get into Who's Who in Kentucky
> > and that Twitchell (at that time)
> > had "never been all that far from
> > home."
> >
> > Later, supposedly (circa 1951) on
> > a "2nd" trip to India, PT claims that
> > Rebazar gave him more initiations
> > and the final (12th) initiation. Klemp
> > overlooks the time-lines and the
> > fact that Twitchell (a proven liar
> > pointed out by Klemp himself!)
> > claims he went to India on a "2nd"
> > trip to meet Rebazar.
> >
> > Plus, once again, Doug Marman
> > once admitted that Twitchell created
> > the Mahanta title for himself in
> > January, 1969. If given the 12th
> > Initiation in 1951 why would PT
> > know about Rebazar being the
> > "Mahanta?" See, it's all a lie!
> >
> > Therefore, Eckankar, the Religion of
> > the Light and Sound of God (versus
> > Sugmad their real "God"), is simply
> > another religious crutch that is male
> > run and controlled. It's filled with
> > myth, lies and distortions. It requires
> > one's desperate imagination to fill-in
> > the blanks and supply hope. This
> > fulfills the needs and desires of
> > the, mostly, good natured followers.
> >
> > The ECK initiations are the carrot that
> > is dangled in front of the mule (chela)
> > that keeps the cart (Eckankar) slowly
> > moving along on a narrow, bumpy,
> > dirt road while the driver (Klemp) whistles
> > the same merry little tune.
> >
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>