3 year old figures out history of Eckankar. Finally!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM35grvNkss

Hello Jonathan and All,
In "Difficulties" Paul was
referred to as a "saviour."

Actually, HK's "Modern Prophet"
designation reminds me more
of Islam's use of the term, as
well as, the Mormon use of
"Prophet." Of course HK is a
14th Plane God while these
others are relegated to the
lower planes ruled by Satan
(i.e. the Devil, Kal).

Therefore, (IMO) I see less
connection to Christianity when
HK uses "Prophet" to describe
himself. I see it as more of a
term a cultist would use. I think
he's conflicted and is doing this
because he wants to play down
the "Mahanta" title since the so-
called Mahanta is 10 Planes above
the "God" that every other religion
prays to and worships... this is
a much higher status than that
Jesus or Mohamed.

And, let's face it, Klemp just can't
live up to the Mahanta Job Description.
Maybe that's the real reason he
plays it down. I still don't see why
ECKists haven't questioned HK's
qualifications. According to the
Shariyat 1 he (the Mahanta) was
to have had a virgin birth. Harold
was the second child born by his
mother and was not adopted!
Thus, Twitchell has been the only
Mahanta to this date!

However, that brings up another
discussion. The Shariyats are said
to have been merely "transcribed"
by Twitchell. The original author
of Book One is listed as Fubbi and
Book Two's author is listed as Yaubl.
I wonder why Rebazar didn't dictate
a Shariyat to Twit?

Anyway, why are these Eckankar Holy
Books offered to the public andr to lower
initiates? Nothing can be reinterpreted
or viewed from another perspective as
it is with the Christian Bible. Every
scriptural interpretation or dream, etc.
must be validated and approved by Klemp
before it can be "taught" and/or promoted.
Klemp has total control. Therefore, why
even offer this EK Scripture to the EK
Membership let alone to the general public?

Yes, ECKankar practices bait and switch.
One doesn't discover this, and the implications,
until one becomes indoctrinated and
brainwashed via trusting all of those
smiling faces.

Prometheus

jonathanjohns wrote:
Prometheus,

I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would like
to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a prophet.

First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
something away for free!)

Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously uses
it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
people of Christian ancestry.

Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other words
of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from India.
Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize that in
its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the term
"prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's "India-colored"
version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked for Eckankar in
the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to eastern religions
such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today, Eckankar
continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
presentation to non-members.

So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the same
process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term like
"Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.

In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in one
of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also, he
mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.

avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All,

Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred
to as a "spiritual path" and the term "religion" was
avoided because we still had a bad taste in our
mouths about "religion."

Yes, I did the Cayce (A.R.E.) thing, the TM thing
and several others. It is interesting that even to
this day most TMers will say that TM is Not a religion.
It's a scientific method to reduce stress. ROFLMAO!
Actually it does work to reduce stress, but secretly
one is praying to Hindu gods! Maharishi was a
conman who knew how to (covertly) promote a
religion to the Western mindset. And, some of the
ritual for receiving a mantra is very similar to what
one does at an ECK initiation.

BTW- It was mentioned as to what the Eckankar
site looks like now. But, look at how long it took!
I remember that I was still getting publications
from TM for about ten years (I couldn't get rid
of them... they'd track me down) into the 1980s
and everything was printed in Gold Leaf. Look at
how long it took Eckankar (Klemp) to change the
format of the ECK pubs. Weren't the EK publications
changed to a Gold Leaf look around 1990? Strange
that he copied TM's look. That's why I said that
Klemp seems conflicted. HK goes back to his
familiar Lutheran roots while, also, following
PT's hodge-podge of Eastern thought. That's
another thing. Eckankar is a hodge-podge
religion, therefore, why aren't other perspectives
permitted? Klemp is the only one who gets to
say how it is and what you're to say and believe.

Prometheus

jonathanjohns wrote:
Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any
message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I
joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it,
"religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what
Wikipedia says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
"Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It
is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane
must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

Jonathan

avonblue wrote:
>
>
> Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric)
back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new
"path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now!
From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks
like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his
proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the
age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western
man trying to save a dying "religion".
>
> AB
>
>
jonathanjohns wrote:
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >
> > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would
like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a
prophet.
> >
> > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
something away for free!)
> >
> > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously
uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
people of Christian ancestry.
> >
> > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other
words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from
India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize
that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the
term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's
"India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked
for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to
eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today,
Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
presentation to non-members.
> >
> > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the
same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term
like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
> >
> > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in
one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also,
he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
> >
> > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
> >
> > Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,
There was something you said that got
me thinking about Twitchell's motives
for changing things around:

"Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul
copied was Radhasoami. But look what
Wikipedia says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami

"Radhasoami is a faith, considered by
adherents as a true way to realize God.
It is neither a religion, nor a caste or
creed or sect or a division in society."

To me, this sounds exactly like the way
Twitchell described Eckankar. David Lane
must have mentioned this, but it must
have just flown past me."



IMO this is probably the way it began with
Eckankar, except, Twitchell (and Gail) felt
the need to make some changes in order
to protect their investment.

1. Paul had a Five-Year Plan where he was
going to hand over the ECKankar leadership
after Five years, but Eckankar took off with
memberships increasing and money flowing
in and this caused Paul to renege on this
promise in year Four. This outraged those
standing-in-line to take over and, thus,
this created a power rift and criticism from
some highly ranked, respected, and influential
H.I.s.

2. Around this same time-frame there were
problems with a former ECKist, John-Roger,
using Paul's books and EK Discourses to create
his own religion. However, this guy continued
to emulate Twitchell, Gross, and even Klemp!

3. Around this same time-frame (mid 1968)
Paul was, still, being criticized by his former
RUHANI SATSANG members and by his former
Master Kirpal Singh. This started with PT's
exaggerations in his (rejected) "The Tiger's
Fang" manuscript  which he had sent to Kirpal
in order to promote himself for advancement
(of that org) within the U.S. This, of course,
was just prior to 1965 and was one reason
why Gail encouraged Paul to share/sell his
knowledge and research via intros, memberships,
tapes, and discourses.

4. Paul, now, needed to place himself above
all others, especially, his critics. Paul did this
by creating the 14th Plane "Mahanta" title
for himself in January, 1969.

And, by creating 14 Planes of Initiation he
not only gave hope in reaching these higher
planes to placate his Higher Initiates and
dangle the carrot (higher) in front of them,
but to also give them an ego boost that made
them think that their path was the Highest,
most Exclusive, and Truest one out there.
After all, he and Gail, were now, in it
for the long haul, or so he thought.

Therefore, Paul and Gail, came up with their
own version of the Hindu Caste System... the
ECK Initiations! Even to this day only a handful
of ECKists have ever received the secretive
9th Initiation... which is odd since the 12th
isn't a secret!

However, there is nothing in ECK scripture
to prevent ECKists (male and female) from
being made "ECK Masters" (in this lifetime)
since these 12th Initiates don't have to be
LEMs! I do predict that Klemp will make
his wife Joan a 12th, ECK Master, before
he retires. It could be that he's already
done this, but hasn't "announced" it to
the membership. Klemp likes to do the
20/20 hindsight thing and he has claimed
in his "Wonderful" book that Joan has,
supposedly, been introducing ECKists
to the Mahanta on the "Inner" for
several years now.

Unfortunately for ECKists Klemp is selfish
and fearful to share any of the EK power
with anyone outside of his current wife.
Maybe this is how he holds onto her...
with promises to make her a 12th.

BTW-Look at how HK handled the situation
with Darwin. That was ruthless! And, to this
day Klemp has never acknowledged Darwin
Gross' death. Klemp had an opportunity to
make amends and to say some nice things
about his (our) former Master who handed
him the Rod of ECK Power. But No! Klemp's
omission of those EK Virtues showed another
side to him that most ECKists would have
never seen otherwise. Still, ECKists have
closed their eyes to Klemp's negative behaviour,

And, look at those searches and Metal Detectors
for HK's Saturday evening talk at major ECK
Seminars. This shows his level of Fear as well
and this attachment is a Passion of the Mind.

Thus, Klemp has not only perpetuated PT's
ECK Initiation Caste System, but has limited
it due to his own narcissism. HK never learned
how to share and has always been arrogant,
angry, critical of others, and a poor listener
and a poor loser... look at those old ping-pong
stories of HK's! All in all, this shows that Klemp
is not qualified to be the leader of anything
that should resemble "spirituality." Talk is
cheap and that's all he's got... along with the
delusional dreams and imaginings of his brain-
washed and needy followers. Yes, he's smiling
all the way to the Bank and back again and again.

Prometheus


*************************************************
[What makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?]

Prometheus wrote:

Hello Jonathan, Avonblue, and All,

Actually, when I joined, Eckankar was being referred
to as a "spiritual path" and the term "religion" was
avoided because we still had a bad taste in our
mouths about "religion."

Yes, I did the Cayce (A.R.E.) thing, the TM thing
and several others. It is interesting that even to
this day most TMers will say that TM is Not a religion.
It's a scientific method to reduce stress. ROFLMAO!
Actually it does work to reduce stress, but secretly
one is praying to Hindu gods! Maharishi was a
conman who knew how to (covertly) promote a
religion to the Western mindset. And, some of the
ritual for receiving a mantra is very similar to what
one does at an ECK initiation.

BTW- It was mentioned as to what the Eckankar
site looks like now. But, look at how long it took!
I remember that I was still getting publications
from TM for about ten years (I couldn't get rid
of them... they'd track me down) into the 1980s
and everything was printed in Gold Leaf. Look at
how long it took Eckankar (Klemp) to change the
format of the ECK pubs. Weren't the EK publications
changed to a Gold Leaf look around 1990? Strange
that he copied TM's look. That's why I said that
Klemp seems conflicted. HK goes back to his
familiar Lutheran roots while, also, following
PT's hodge-podge of Eastern thought. That's
another thing. Eckankar is a hodge-podge
religion, therefore, why aren't other perspectives
permitted? Klemp is the only one who gets to
say how it is and what you're to say and believe.

Prometheus

jonathanjohns wrote:
Re: What Makes Klemp a Prophet... a second book?

You reminded me of something very important that I have never mentioned on any
message board. You said that "Religion" was becoming a bad word. What I wanted
to mention is that if Eckankar was calling itself a religion in 1979 when I
joined, I would have never joined. The reason is because as you put it,
"religion" was a bad word for me. I was very turned off by all religions.

The interesting thing is that TM had the same by-line (We are not a religion).

Of course, one of the "faiths" that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But look what
Wikipedia says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
"Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents as a true way to realize God. It
is neither a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or a division in society."

To me, this sounds exactly like the way Twitchell described Eckankar. Dvaid Lane
must have mentioned this, but it must have just flown past me.

Jonathan

avonblue wrote:
>
>
> Good information Jonathan. Twitchell rode the popular (although esoteric)
back of Scientology, Sant Mat, Edgar Cayce, etc. in the 60's to build his new
"path". " Religion" was becoming a bad word. Look at the eckankar site now!
From the soft pastel colors, gold highlights, clean-cut smiling faces - it looks
like a Christian Easter mass announcement. Paul is probably rolling in his
proverbial grave. I'm not sure this new look reflects the consciousness of the
age, as eckists are led to believe, but more the consciousness of a mid-western
man trying to save a dying "religion".
>
> AB
>
>
jonathanjohns wrote:
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >
> > I can't answer your question about what makes Klemp a prophet, but I would
like to comment on two other things related to Eckankar's calling Klemp a
prophet.
> >
> > First of all, Eckankar could easily make Klemps' weekly radio broadcast in
Chanhassen available on Eckankar.org. I haven't actually looked there, but I am
assuming that it is not there. Or they could even make mp3s of the broadcast and
distribute them for free on Eckankar.org. (Ha ha! Fat chance of Eckankar giving
something away for free!)
> >
> > Secondly, "prophet" is a term used widely by Christianity. Islam obviously
uses it too, but that is a translation from Middle Eastern languages. So I see
Eckankar's use of the term prophet as applied to HK as another example of
Eckankar imitating Christianity in order to make themselves more appealing to
people of Christian ancestry.
> >
> > Twitchell used terms like "satguru" and even "avatar," and probably other
words of Indian origin. Those terms tend to color Eckankar as a religion from
India. Eckankar is from India, of course, but Eckankar wants to de-emphasize
that in its initial portrayal of itself to potential new members. So using the
term "prophet" allows Eckankar to further distance itself from Paul's
"India-colored" version of Eckankar. Paul's version of Eckankar actually worked
for Eckankar in the 60s and 70s when the Beatles and others were turning to
eastern religions such as Maharishi's Transcendental Meditation (TM). But today,
Eckankar continues to distance itself from that image, at least in its initial
presentation to non-members.
> >
> > So using a Christian term and avoiding an Indian term is really part of the
same process. The Christian term cancels out any weird-sounding East Indian term
like "Mahanta." Of course, new members do find out the truth eventually.
> >
> > In case any historians like Etznab read this, Paul used the word avatar in
one of his cassette tapes. I learned the word from him and his tape. And also,
he mispronounced the word. He pronounced the first syllable like "save." So I
pronounced the word incorrectly for 30 years, all the way up to when the movie
came out. And just because I am such a perfectionist, I asked a man from India
who was in an Indian grocery store how it is pronounced in India. He told me the
standard American pronunciation with the first syllable pronounced like "have."
I forgot to mention that the word avatar comes from Sanskrit; that's why I
assumed that a person from India would know how to pronounce it correctly.
> >
> > avatar - Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> > http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar
> >
> > Jonathan

Hi Jonathan and All,

You said, "Of course, one of the "faiths"
that Paul copied was Radhasoami. But
look what Wikipedia says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami
"Radhasoami is a faith, considered by adherents
as a true way to realize God. It is neither
a religion, nor a caste or creed or sect or
a division in society."

This got me to thinking about Twitchell's
connection with Ruhani Satsang and
with Kirpal Singh.

Basically, there was a rift or schism when
Kirpal Singh's Master (Baba Sawan Singh Ji)
died in 1948. The main group kept the name
Radhasoami. This was the group that Julian
P. Johnson (who wrote "The Path of the Masters)
followed. Kirpal Singh took his followers and
formed Ruhani Satsang. This was the group
and Master that Twitchell followed.

BTW- There is no difference in dogma between
the two groups, except, for the leadership.
This is why "The Path of the Masters" could
be used by Western students of both sects.

However, when Twitchell created ECKankar
he Westernized it to fit-in with the Western
mind-set and his own.

Here are some excerpts from: "The Teachings
of Kirpal Singh."

"The Holy Path-
Initiation: The Awakening

It is the "Word" personified or the Master Power
that gives initiation, and it does not matter where
the Master is at the time of initiation... At the time
of Initiation, the Master takes His seat at the Third
Eye of the initiate and takes care of him henceforth...
the spiritual (third) eye is opened to see the Light
of God and the inner ear is opened to hear the Voice
of God--the Creative Sound of the Beyond which
has a soothing and healing effect...The Master Power
from the moment of Initiation, guides and protects one,
even after the end of the world, and beyond."

Anyway there's more about Satsang, etc. and also
this prayer:

"To be with the Gurumukh, to have the company
of a Sadhu, to have the intoxication of the Naam;
This is the true affinity in which Thy Name is
remembered in the heart."

Also, there's a section about, "Self-Introspection,
Importance of keeping the (daily spiritual) Diary."
Kirpal says to send in "blank pages" if you think
you have nothing to say, but by doing so you will
be inclined or inspired to remember and to write.

Here Kirpal talks about being chaste and keeping
the diary for spiritual growth:

"With the Satguru's mercy one gets a little
connection with the Light and Sound Principle,
but if the life is not kept pure and chaste, the
curtain of darkness will obscure the Light again.
You must be regular in your meditation to maintain
Light; there are important reasons behind the
keeping of diaries... Chastity is the main source
of all virtues."

And, this is why Twitchell omitted this Virtue
(for the Western mind-set) and why the EK
version of this "Passions of the Mind" - Lust,
doesn't match the "virtue" Twitchell assigned
to it. This is why it's more difficult to remember
Twitchell's substitution. It s/b Lust versus Chastity

There was one more item that Twitchell needed
to change, although, this is still a point of
contention for some ECKists. It's the Vegetarian
Diet. Apparently Karma is involved, but KLEMP
seems to avoid the issue for the same reasons
Twitchell did.

Kirpal states:
"We must therefore avoid meat, meat juices,
fish, fowl, eggs both fertile and unfertile, or
anything containing any of these ingredients
in any form or in any degree. Every action
has a reaction and flesh-eating involves
contracting fresh Karmas and thus helps
to keep the inexorable Karmic wheel in motion
for we have to reap what we sow. We cannot
have roses if we sow thistles... the above
prohibitions apply equally to all kinds of
alcoholic drinks, intoxicants, opiates and
narcotic drugs, as they tend to dull our
consciousness and make us morbid."

So, for ECKankar to work Twitchell removed
two Eastern (spiritual) requirements. Chastity
and Vegetarianism.

Prometheus

Prometheus,

Interesting comments, but I'd like you comment on one thing.

Here is a quote of part of what you wrote about Kirpal Singh:

> Here Kirpal talks about being chaste and keeping
> the diary for spiritual growth:

> "With the Satguru's mercy one gets a little
> connection with the Light and Sound Principle,
> but if the life is not kept pure and chaste, the
> curtain of darkness will obscure the Light again.
> You must be regular in your meditation to maintain
> Light; there are important reasons behind the
> keeping of diaries... Chastity is the main source
> of all virtues."

> And, this is why Twitchell omitted this Virtue
> (for the Western mind-set) and why the EK
> version of this "Passions of the Mind" - Lust,
> doesn't match the "virtue" Twitchell assigned
> to it. This is why it's more difficult to remember
> Twitchell's substitution. It s/b Lust versus Chastity

We had a previous detailed discussion about chastity which started with my post
on February 16, 2009:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/4446

Here is a quote from that discussion:


--------------- beginning of quote from message 4446 -----------
But Darwin spoke about a lot of things. One of the minor topics
was "chastity before marriage." I am quoting the following paragraph
from "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (page 136) (1979 copyright):

"Sri Paul Twitchell told a small group of young people (and a few
older people as well) at the Chicago Youth Conference in 1971 that
the girls should retain their virginity until marriage and he
stressed the same for the young men. Because a few have loose morals
there are some religious groups out here on the West Coast telling
others that those in ECKANKAR have no morals. This is an individual
discipline and has nothing to do with ECKANKAR and its teachings."

As a sidelight, it is interesting to note how Darwin states that PT
emphasized that both girls and boy should be chaste until marriage,
then Darwin says that it has nothing to do with Eckankar and its
teachings. If it had nothing to do with Eckankar's teachings, then
why was PT telling people about it at an Eckankar seminar?
--------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


so, I do agree with you that Twitchell removed the word "chastity" from the five
passions of the mind. But is it possible to traditionally-thinking people in
India like Kirpal Singh, that chastity and lust are just opposites of the same
thing? That the reason that people are unchaste because of lust. If that is
true, and Twitchell's thinking was traditional (which I believe it was) then the
word "lust" on the list of five passions of the mind can be thought of a covert
way to promote chastity. I agree with anyone who says that Eckists don't look at
it that way. I think most Eckists look at lust as simply "being too addicted or
too obsessed with sex" whether it occurs before marriage or after marriage. But
I still wonder whether Kirpal's original thinking was that "lust is what leads
to premarital sex."

And in hindsight, I certainly believe that Twitchell leaving the word "chasity"
out of the list of the five passions of the mind does reflect an intention to
de-emphasize it in the tracings of Eckankar. So maybe when he made the five
passions list he was vacillating on including the word "chastity." But at that
particular seminar, maybe he was in a  mood to rant about young people in
Eckankar being immoral.

Back on message number 4446, the next thing I wrote was:


--------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------
The next paragraph in the book, pages 136 to 137, is interesting as
well:

"An article written in The Oakland Tribune by John Godwin, August
1972, about Sri Paul Twitchell stated "He (Paul) blames moral laxity
for most revolutions since the time of ancient Egypt and added the
warning that there are forces now trying to build the same looseness
of morals in our society here that will bring about the same results."

I believe that the "forces" he was talking about were (1) the women's
liberation movement, and the (2) hippie movement. In other words, the
Sexual Revolution of the 1960s.
--------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


It almost looks to me like Twitchell was upset at a few lustful young people in
Eckankar who were giving it a bad name. So he then went on a "pro chastity rant"
at this particular seminar even though that was not what he was officially
emphasizing in the teachings of Eckankar.

But one thing is certain, Paul's using the word "lust" in the five passions
creates one impression. Adding the concept of chastity to it creates a different
impression.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this one.

Jonathan

Prometheus,

I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
"virtues list" that he had.

When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
passions lists in India.

So I need a clarification on that.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,
Sorry, I don't remember our previous discussion
on this subject. However, let me respond to what
you have shared below.

Jonathan wrote:
rometheus,

Interesting comments, but I'd like you comment on one thing.

Here is a quote of part of what you wrote about Kirpal Singh:

> Here Kirpal talks about being chaste and keeping
> the diary for spiritual growth:

> "With the Satguru's mercy one gets a little
> connection with the Light and Sound Principle,
> but if the life is not kept pure and chaste, the
> curtain of darkness will obscure the Light again.
> You must be regular in your meditation to maintain
> Light; there are important reasons behind the
> keeping of diaries... Chastity is the main source
> of all virtues."

> And, this is why Twitchell omitted this Virtue
> (for the Western mind-set) and why the EK
> version of this "Passions of the Mind" - Lust,
> doesn't match the "virtue" Twitchell assigned
> to it. This is why it's more difficult to remember
> Twitchell's substitution. It s/b Lust versus Chastity

We had a previous detailed discussion about chastity which started with my post
on February 16, 2009:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/4446

Here is a quote from that discussion:


--------------- beginning of quote from message 4446 -----------
But Darwin spoke about a lot of things. One of the minor topics
was "chastity before marriage." I am quoting the following paragraph
from "Your Right To Know" by Darwin Gross (page 136) (1979 copyright):

"Sri Paul Twitchell told a small group of young people (and a few
older people as well) at the Chicago Youth Conference in 1971 that
the girls should retain their virginity until marriage and he
stressed the same for the young men. Because a few have loose morals
there are some religious groups out here on the West Coast telling
others that those in ECKANKAR have no morals. This is an individual
discipline and has nothing to do with ECKANKAR and its teachings."

As a sidelight, it is interesting to note how Darwin states that PT
emphasized that both girls and boy should be chaste until marriage,
then Darwin says that it has nothing to do with Eckankar and its
teachings. If it had nothing to do with Eckankar's teachings, then
why was PT telling people about it at an Eckankar seminar?

***
ME: It seems that Darwin mimicked Twitchell quite
a bit when he first took over. However, most of
these "preachers/politicians" practice the adage
of "Do what I say, not as I do." Newt actually admitted
to doing this. And, I don't really think Harry and Joan
followed the chastity before marriage advice.

However, I agree, if it had nothing to do with ECK(ankar)
beliefs then why mention that it's up to the individual?
It's actually double speak/talk.
  ***


--------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


so, I do agree with you that Twitchell removed the word "chastity" from the five
passions of the mind. But is it possible to traditionally-thinking people in
India like Kirpal Singh, that chastity and lust are just opposites of the same
thing? That the reason that people are unchaste because of lust. If that is
true, and Twitchell's thinking was traditional (which I believe it was) then the
word "lust" on the list of five passions of the mind can be thought of a covert
way to promote chastity.

I agree with anyone who says that Eckists don't look at
it that way. I think most Eckists look at lust as simply "being
too addicted or too obsessed with sex" whether it occurs before
marriage or after marriage. But I still wonder whether Kirpal's
original thinking was that "lust is what leads to premarital sex."


***
ME: Well, there's the Law/World of Opposites.
And it could be that chastity and lust are the
same in that they both act as a Denial of something.
But if one sees the sexual act as making "love" then
can we, still, call it lust? The religionists will take
the fundamental and literal approach by attempting
to control their followers, but sometimes these
instructions can be seen as "metaphors." Perhaps,
being loyal to one's mate can be seen as being chaste?
In that sense we can see where "contentment" could
be substituted (as Twitchell did) as the opposite of
lust. However, Kirpal and the others who believe
like him want "householders" to practice chastity
when the woman could no longer bear any children.
However, one can "Lust" after many things other
than sex. Therefore, once again "contentment"
does seem as though it could be the opposite
virtue. However, there are other passions and
virtues that would cover this definition of "lust"
such as attachment - non-attachment.
***


"And in hindsight, I certainly believe that Twitchell leaving the word "chasity"
out of the list of the five passions of the mind does reflect an intention to
de-emphasize it in the tracings of Eckankar. So maybe when he made the five
passions list he was vacillating on including the word "chastity." But at that
particular seminar, maybe he was in a mood to rant about young people in
Eckankar being immoral."





Back on message number 4446, the next thing I wrote was:


--------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------
The next paragraph in the book, pages 136 to 137, is interesting as
well:

"An article written in The Oakland Tribune by John Godwin, August
1972, about Sri Paul Twitchell stated "He (Paul) blames moral laxity
for most revolutions since the time of ancient Egypt and added the
warning that there are forces now trying to build the same looseness
of morals in our society here that will bring about the same results."

I believe that the "forces" he was talking about were (1) the women's
liberation movement, and the (2) hippie movement. In other words, the
Sexual Revolution of the 1960s.

--------------- end of quote from message 4446 -----------


It almost looks to me like Twitchell was upset at a few lustful young people in
Eckankar who were giving it a bad name. So he then went on a "pro chastity rant"
at this particular seminar even though that was not what he was officially
emphasizing in the teachings of Eckankar.

But one thing is certain, Paul's using the word "lust" in the five passions
creates one impression. Adding the concept of chastity to it creates a different
impression.

I'm interested in your thoughts on this one.

Jonathan


***
ME: I think that I've pointed out before Paul altered
the Five Passions and the Five Virtues found in "The
Path of the Masters" to fit-in with the Western mind-
set. It's kind of like what Mahareshi did with TM.

The truth is that the LEM's have to give these chastity
speeches because there're so many sexual liaisons
within Eckankar. Many Eckists have been married
multiple times to various ECKists. Karma is one reason
ECKists feel that it's okay to "tie-up-loose-ends"
and resolve those past-life feelings (and karma)
with sexual interludes. Plus, by Not having the Virtue
of Chastity, hanging around one's neck, it makes the
pairing-up of EKists (to resolve past karma) even
more acceptable. Let's face it, in Eckankar, Karma
is emphasized much more than the Five Passions
of the Mind and these are focused upon much more
than the Five Virtues of the Mind.
[prometheus]
***

Hello Jonathan,
Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
chart in "The Path of the Masters."

As a recap here are both versions to compare:

From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"

                    "Passions and their Remedies
KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"


Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):

KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility

Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
see the differences, but one can compare the two
lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
(like adding an "a" to some of these names).

And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.

BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
is to confuse these things when the proper designation
or term is not used.

["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].

It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
could be Contentment versus Chastity or
Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
be the remedy for many of these Passions of
the Mind.

Prometheus


Jonathan wrote:
Prometheus,

I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten confused.
It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
"virtues list" that he had.

When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned that
chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
passions lists in India.

So I need a clarification on that.

Jonathan

Promethes,

Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
subject.

I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
they automatically call this "lust."

I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
extremely important in Hinduism.

Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
"coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
did.

Jonathan



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan,
> Yes, Paul used and altered the Passions/Virtues
> chart in "The Path of the Masters."
>
> As a recap here are both versions to compare:
>
> From Chapter 6 "The Path of the Masters"
>
>                    "Passions and their Remedies
> KAM (Lust).................Shil..................Chastity, continence
> KRODH (Anger)..........Kshama............Forgiveness, tolerance
> LOBH (Greed).............Santosha..........Contentment
> MOH (Attachment).....Viveka/Vairag...Discrimination/Detachment
> AHANKAR (Ego;Pride)..Dinta...............Humility"
>
>
> Passions of Mind and Virtues from HK's 1st ECK Lexicon (pg. 73):
>
> KAMA (Lust)................Viveka...............Right Discrimination (pg. 225)
> KRODHA (Anger).........Kshama.............Forgiveness
> LOBHA (Greed).........Santosha/Shanti...Peace/Contentment
> MOHA (Attachment).....Vairag...............Detachment
> AHANKARA (Vanity)......Dinta................Humility
>
> Anyway, these Passions and Virtues are not matched
> up in HK's 1st Lexicon so that people can't readily
> see the differences, but one can compare the two
> lists and see where Twit made some "creative" changes
> (like adding an "a" to some of these names).
>
> And, one can see that Twitchell moved some words
> around to do his own mix and match. Look at MOH.
> PT omitted Chastity and moved "Viveka" (Discrimination)
> up to cover the virtue (opposite) for Lust.
>
> BTW- I think that in my prior post I confused the EK
> Virtue, or remedy, for Lust. I was thinking that it was
> Contentment but it's Discrimination. See how easy it
> is to confuse these things when the proper designation
> or term is not used.
>
> ["Sant Mat"............................."ECKankar"
> Lust - Chastity.....versus....Lust - Discrimination].
>
> It does seem to me that the remedy for Lust
> could be Contentment versus Chastity or
> Discrimination. Actually, Contentment could
> be the remedy for many of these Passions of
> the Mind.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Jonathan wrote:
> Prometheus,
>
> I have a hard time keeping track of all this stuff. I may have gotten
confused.
> It now seems to me that you were saying that Paul left "chastity" off of some
> "virtues list" that he had.
>
> When I looked back to our February, 2009 discussion I thought you mentioned
that
> chastity was associated with lust in some of the original versions of the five
> passions lists in India.
>
> So I need a clarification on that.
>
> Jonathan
>

Hello Jonathan,
I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
would give clarification to your question. That's
like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
differently.

As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
people, are expected to practice chastity when
the woman can no longer produce offspring.
Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).

BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
I had to make sure people were meditating properly
and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
discouraged from writing them down and would at
times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
"change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
going back in to help them remember their mantra.

The kundalini was used to direct energy down
through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
and we were instructed not to have sex during the
"program."

The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.

However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
came out.

Prometheus


jonathan wrote


Promethes,

Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
subject.

I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly what
these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive impression
that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And so
they automatically call this "lust."

I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
extremely important in Hinduism.

Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after they
stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse only
two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression that
Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.

I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
"coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.

But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what Twitchell
did.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

I reread what I had previously written
and thought I should give some
clarification on Maharishi's instructions
for us to remain chaste during the
TM "Program" for Siddha training.
This 1st Phase of training was an intense
two week course in the Catskills. Other
than for this training we, as householders
or "Citizen" Siddhas, were not instructed
to practice chastity. Plus, we "couples"
complied because we wanted the best
results for the money. This was an expensive
course ($3,000 each), even, for way back
in the '70s!

FYI- The Sutras, like the one used for
the Flying Technique, came from Patanjali.
You can find some of these in the 1953
book "How To Know God" translated
by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher
Isherwood.

BTW-The Sutra for the TM
"Flying Technique" is thus:

But first this-

The clearing of the mind is
like pouring pure clear water
into a bottle of ink. The ink
(your thoughts) will flow out
as the water flows in. Eventually
the ink in the bottle will be
replaced by clear pure water.

Sit comfortably in a quiet
room. Close your eyes and
quiet your mind. Breathe easily,
gently, and naturally... don't
allow any attention to be placed
upon your thoughts or upon
your breathing. Let both be
natural. Gently clear and quiet
your mind without forcing it.
Let Go of all the thoughts rushing
in. Don't hold onto any of them
even if it seems fun to follow
them. Let All of these thoughts,
Ever So Gently, go into the ethers.
Take your time and relax until
your mind and breathing settle
down naturally.

Now visualize yourself holding
a ball of cotton. In the bright
light of day take your fingers
and pull it apart! Now, see the
loose fibers gently floating
in the air and rising upwards.

As you visualize this think...
"Light As Cotton Fiber!"

Feel the spiritual energy in
the Crown Chakra ready to
descend downwards through
the Kundalini! Repeat this!




prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan,
> I'm not sure if speaking to a Hindu and/or a Sikh
> would give clarification to your question. That's
> like asking a "Christian" a question about belief.
> What dogma does the Christian follow? There are
> so many beliefs and each individual interprets it
> differently.
>
> As I mentioned most "householders," or normal
> people, are expected to practice chastity when
> the woman can no longer produce offspring.
> Thus, there is no sex outside or inside of marriage
> beyond a certain stage of life. Having sex inside
> of marriage when the woman can no longer reproduce
> is seen as the same as having sex outside of the
> marriage... it's still lust and this is an attachment
> to worldly desires... and to a lower chakra (consciousness).
>
> BTW- I was in TM for six years before joining Eckankar
> and was a Siddha. Although not a Governor I volunteered
> as a "checker" and had duties somewhat to that of an ESA.
> I had to make sure people were meditating properly
> and were comfortable with their mantra. People were
> discouraged from writing them down and would at
> times forget them. It would be two or three syllables
> but the way the mantra was pronounced would naturally
> "change." Actually, the key word was "natural." Sometimes
> I would step out of the room and consult my "list" before
> going back in to help them remember their mantra.
>
> The kundalini was used to direct energy down
> through the chakras in order do the flying technique,
> and we were instructed not to have sex during the
> "program."
>
> The "flying technique" was supposed to cause levitation
> and was a physical side effect to Higher Consciousness.
> But, the only "effect" I ever saw was hopping. However,
> when one was sitting in a full lotus position and chanted
> the sutra (with the visualization) the energy channeled
> through the kundalini did produce an electrical charge.
> Of course there was a certain amount of expectation but
> we were simply being open to whatever. The result was
> like touching an electrical wire to a frog's leg and getting
> a muscle response. Therefore, the hopping (on thick high
> density foam mattresses) was effortless and could be
> done, easily, and with minimal exertion for 20 minutes.
>
> However, TM was a very expensive and distracting ruse
> and with more discipline than Eckankar requires.
> I'm kind of surprised that I took the bait with Eckankar
> after that. But, at least I did remain skeptical and this
> enabled me to be more open minded when Ford's book
> came out.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> jonathan wrote
>
>
> Promethes,
>
> Thanks for the two additional messages clarifying things. It's an interesting
> subject.
>
> I'd really love to talk to a Hindu or Sikh from India and ask them exactly
what
> these gurus mean by "lust" and "chastity." I am getting the intuitive
impression
> that for them, "lust" is ANY sex outside marriage. In other words, people can
> only have sex during marriage, so any sex that takes place outside marriage
> obviously results from the fact that they can't control their sex drive. And
so
> they automatically call this "lust."
>
> I was in TM (Transcendental Meditation) for about two years before joining
> Eckankar. I read Maharishi's little paperback book. He spent a LOT of time
> talking about how important it is to "sublimate the sex drive and direct it
> toward something else." So sublimating the sex drive, or controlling it, is
> extremely important in Hinduism.
>
> Somebody told me that married Hindus are expected to stop having sex after
they
> stop having children. I had a Chinese girlfriend who was born in Taiwan, but
> mostly raised in the USA. She once told me that her parents had intercourse
only
> two times. Incredulous, I asked "How do you know that?" She replied "Once for
> me, and once for my sister." The point is that I am getting the impression
that
> Hindus almost seem to believe that sex is only for procreation.
>
> I think all of this may be important to figuring out where Kirpal Singh was
> "coming from" when he was discussing lust and chastity.
>
> But you are right in your analysis of Twitchell. His version is not at all the
> same as Kirpal's version. I think you did a good job documenting what
Twitchell
> did.
>
> Jonathan
>

I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not
worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical.  Yet with
increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
been produced and marketed to the ekkie public.  Furthermore, as has been noted
by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
pre-gray/balding/thinner man.  I recall numerous conversations and discussions
in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.

In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics"  he's created an encyclopedia of
the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
cites eckankar with Venusian origins).  Most interesting is his description of
the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.

He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
himself to a god.  He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
proliferation of their image."  These images, he states, were accompanied by the
message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible to
escape.

Does this sound at all familiar?  I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
this organization openly utilizes but never professes to.  Having been there I
know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
inner guidance.  Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation.  How? 
Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and only
read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you"  and slow your
progress?   If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
the astral worlds... , really?  So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
wisdom ourselves?  If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do?  Wow -
I actually believed some of this stuff!!!

More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as what
quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
the last 10 years or so.  Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
emerging science after all.  All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
offer was there all along.  Take a little time to investigate even the layman
books on these subjects - it's fascinating.  Of course that's if you can get by
the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that matter,
as just a lowly bodily function.

"avonblue1212" wrote:

"I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to
not worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical.  Yet with
increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
been produced and marketed to the ekkie public.  Furthermore, as has been noted
by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
pre-gray/balding/thinner man.  I recall numerous conversations and discussions
in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
the inner consciousness beyond the physical form."

Very valid point, avonblue1212.

I know people may be getting tired of my stories about "what happened at he Eck
canter," but this is another topic I brought up there. Sometime in my last year
in Eckankar (2008) I was at the local Eck center in the room where the huge
photo of Klemp is high up on the wall. I mentioned to some of the Eckists there
about how I was genuinely concerned about what I perceived as "worshiping the
personality of Harold" and how this was not a good idea, and how Harold was not
going to live forever, and how worship of Paul created a big problem with many
people leaving Eckankar when he died.

As you may have already guessed, these comments went over like a lead balloon.
People looked at me like I was an alien from outer space or something for saying
something so ludicrous. So this conversation with these Eckists was one more
thing that made me realize just how delusional these people are, and how they
live in their own world. By the way, these people were all 30-year higher
initiates.

From my point of view, this experience was like that old saying "No good deed
goes unpunished." I was trying to help Eckankar avert another disaster like when
Paul died, but nobody there wanted to hear my "stupid" opinion. They seemed to
act like Klemp was never going to die, or perhaps they just couldn't deal with
the possibility of that happening. Which tells me that they aren't going to deal
with it very well when it does happen.

By the way, a member of Eckankar who probably knew the facts, once told me that
when Paul died, about one-third of the membership left. I would not be surprised
to see the same thing happen when Klemp dies.

And as I read Ecknankar's secret publications like the Mystic World and Hi
Newsletter, what I generally saw was Klemp encouraging people to worship him
more.

I may be wrong, but the way things looked to me in December of 2008, I saw
Eckankar setting itself up for another disaster like when Twitchell died. I
think the reason why Eckankar is encouraging its members to worship Klemp is
because they want to keep them stuck in Eckankar.

Hello Avonblue and ALL,
Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
"adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
wanted to make it clear to everyone there
that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.

Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
and poorly made attempts at humor.
ECKists act as though they are in a trance
or under a spell...  from a Black Magician.
And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
laughter... all the way to the bank.

Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
Klemp states this, of other religions, on
page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?

Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
and Masters worshipped.

Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
be "worshipped" even though he has created
an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
Klemp! He states that he is one with the
ECK and is the ECK!

See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
thinking is just accepted without question. After
years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
to accept those lies as well.

Prometheus



avonblue wrote:


I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not
worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.

In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.

He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by the
message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible to
escape.

Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and only
read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
I actually believed some of this stuff!!!

More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as what
quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that matter,
as just a lowly bodily function.

Prometheus,

I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly
because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste
system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that
her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous
amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that
there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do
with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother
(my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there
so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but
meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I
have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great
ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with
being hypocritical.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan and All,
I agree that it's hard to get the real truth
from any religionist... Eckankar included.
Yes, the caste system was "outlawed" in
India (for show) but it's functioning quite
well.

Eckankar's Caste System equates to: Level
of Initiation.

Let's face it, a lower initiate's opinion or
even their "spiritual" experiences (especially
those coming from 1st, 2nd or 3rd initiates)
mean little to most Higher Initiates. These
"experiences" may be worthy enough to
place into an ECK pub for publicity purposes,
but have no real value otherwise, except
to other Lower Initiates (wannabes). In truth,
these Lower Initiates are disrespected by
H.I.s because their Initiation Level is a "Yardstick"
of their level of inner experience and consciousness.

Yes, some Lower Initiates may have good
business and communication skills, but this
is not the same as having a higher "spiritual"
consciousness. On the other hand these Eckists
who do have unique worldly skills are usually
those who get initiated faster and higher.
Thus, "professionals," in Eckankar,  get promoted
faster and higher than those who don't have
the "credentials." This in and of itself shows
a "caste consciousness." Professionals are
"fast tracked" on Initiations, but almost all
will hit the glass ceiling of the 7th Initiation.


BTW- Klemp has stated, in the past, that some
Lower Initiates are "higher" than some Higher
Initiates. However, if this were true then why
did these "Higher" Initiates get promoted in
the first place and/or why have they kept their
Higher Initiation rank?

Plus, why weren't these "Lower" Initiates, with
a H.I. level of consciousness as HK claimed,
promoted to the 5th or 6th Initiation? I knew
one or two and they were never promoted.
Klemp's words are useless because the proof
is in the pudding... so to speak. If someone
coming into ECKankar really does have a level
of spiritual consciousness equating to the 5th,
6th, or 7th Plane then why aren't they promoted
to at least the 5th? And, why aren't some H.I.s
demoted if they don't demonstrate, via behaviour,
a Higher "Spiritual" Consciousness?

Well, it's obvious why it doesn't make sense.
Klemp is a fraud! He has no idea of what is
going on with anyone unless someone sends
him an email, gives him or Joan a phone call,
or he receives a snail-mail letter. Of course
he does hear about it in person at times from
Board members, or from RESAs when there's
a big RESA meeting.

However, much of this communication HK has
(involving other ECKists) is merely hearsay and
is not verified. The big point is, there's no "Inner"
communication that takes place with Klemp (the
LEM/Mahanta) and with his Higher Initiates. A
few ECKists having an occasional dream, etc.
with Klemp showing up doesn't really amount
to having "inner communication." This is just
another use of the mind's imagination giving
a religious follower what they have expected
and desired to experience. All religions use
these "experiences"or miracles or whatever as
"proof" that their religion is better than another
or all others!

I'm rather surprised that many ECKists have
limited curiosity as to the beginnings of Eckankar
and don't see the correlations with other religions
like Sant Mat or with secret visitations and miracles.
Apparently, most ECKistss threw their memories
of this out with the bath water, and don't read
anything outside of the EK teachings due to an
innate fear of learning the Truth. Most people
need to feel secure and special and this requires
a personal "God" and Eckankar is no exception.

Prometheus






Jonathan wrote:
Prometheus,

I'm not so sure speaking with a Hindu or Sikh is worthwhile either, but mostly
because I'm not certain that they will tell me the truth.

I knew a Brahmin lady from India. Over a year ago she told me that the caste
system was gone in India. Somebody who knows her very well recently told me that
her daughter was preparing to go to college. And this lady spent a tremendous
amount of time researching all the colleges she was interested in to verify that
there were a lot of Brahmins attending the school? I suspected that it had to do
with meeting possible marriage partners, but this person told me that the mother
(my acquaintance) wanted to make sure that there were enough Brahmin girls there
so her daughter could have enough Brahmin girlfriends.

So, in essence, this lady I knew told me the caste system was dead in India, but
meanwhile, she is practicing it in the Unites States.

It seems like I used to have a really high opinions of all Indians, but lately I
have been coming to realize that they are just like everybody else, a few great
ones, and a whole bunch of average ones, including many who have no problem with
being hypocritical.

Jonathan

BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that
ECK H.I.s are "higher" than the "God" of all
religions since this GOD is no higher than
the 4th Plane! Now, explain to me why these
H.I. "Gods" cannot communicate completely
on the "inner" with the "highest" God... the
LEM/Mahanta? Why are these ECKist Gods
so limited? Is ECKankar a Big Fat Lie? Yes!

Really, think about it. Klemp states in his
"Autobiography," on page 385, that the
God of all religions is a 4th (Mental) Plane
God and most H.I.s are 5th-7th Plane.
Now, H.I.s should ask themselves, after
their heads deflate, how do I, as well as,
Klemp demonstrate this Level of Awareness
that is "beyond" God's Consciousness?

Okay, wake up! Here's the Catch-22.
ECKists cannot experience "God Consciousness,"
permanently, unless they become 8th Initiates.
So, the 4th Plane God's Consciousness
can only be experienced permanently
when they become 8th initiates! However,
remember that this 4th Plane God is KAL,
i.e. the Devil, Satan.

BTW- Isn't Sugmad also referred to as "God"
in the EK Teachings? Sure! So, 8ths can experience
SUGMAD (God) Consciousness on a regular basis?
I don't think Klemp would allow this interpretation!
HK's too selfish to put even 8ths on that level.
It's too close to where he's standing is on the
mountain.

FYI- I happened to look up "ECK Masters"
(12th initiates) in Klemp's 1st Lexicon and
read that these guys "have reached a state
of consciousness of relative perfection."
Yet, isn't this said of our (4th Plane) God?
Didn't 14th Plane Klemp once say that he
too "wasn't perfect?" Confusing isn't it?
That's the whole point! This is why ECKists
aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
sort out the facts from the myth or from
the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
down to D.G. and to Klemp.

ECKankar is all make believe and comfortable...
it's the Easy Way!

Prometheus


Hello Avonblue and ALL,
Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
"adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
wanted to make it clear to everyone there
that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.

Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
and poorly made attempts at humor.
ECKists act as though they are in a trance
or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
laughter... all the way to the bank.

Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
Klemp states this, of other religions, on
page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?

Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
and Masters worshipped.

Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
be "worshipped" even though he has created
an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
Klemp! He states that he is one with the
ECK and is the ECK!

See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
thinking is just accepted without question. After
years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
to accept those lies as well.

Prometheus



avonblue wrote:


I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to not
worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would chastise
those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not recognizing
the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.

In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.

He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by the
message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible to
escape.

Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and only
read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
I actually believed some of this stuff!!!

More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as what
quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that matter,
as just a lowly bodily function.

Prometheus said:
This is why ECKists
aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
sort out the facts from the myth or from
the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
down to D.G. and to Klemp.

Exactly - the minute you question or doubt (qualities of a rational mind) you're
told you must not be doing your spiritual exercises regularly (in other words
you are an inferior spiritual being) - which is just more brainwashing and a
continuation of the cycle of deception.  Or your told "doubt is good" it allows
you to dig deeper and immerse yourself more into the "teachings".  I like the
concept of free thinking and choice.
AB

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that
> ECK H.I.s are "higher" than the "God" of all
> religions since this GOD is no higher than
> the 4th Plane! Now, explain to me why these
> H.I. "Gods" cannot communicate completely
> on the "inner" with the "highest" God... the
> LEM/Mahanta? Why are these ECKist Gods
> so limited? Is ECKankar a Big Fat Lie? Yes!
>
> Really, think about it. Klemp states in his
> "Autobiography," on page 385, that the
> God of all religions is a 4th (Mental) Plane
> God and most H.I.s are 5th-7th Plane.
> Now, H.I.s should ask themselves, after
> their heads deflate, how do I, as well as,
> Klemp demonstrate this Level of Awareness
> that is "beyond" God's Consciousness?
>
> Okay, wake up! Here's the Catch-22.
> ECKists cannot experience "God Consciousness,"
> permanently, unless they become 8th Initiates.
> So, the 4th Plane God's Consciousness
> can only be experienced permanently
> when they become 8th initiates! However,
> remember that this 4th Plane God is KAL,
> i.e. the Devil, Satan.
>
> BTW- Isn't Sugmad also referred to as "God"
> in the EK Teachings? Sure! So, 8ths can experience
> SUGMAD (God) Consciousness on a regular basis?
> I don't think Klemp would allow this interpretation!
> HK's too selfish to put even 8ths on that level.
> It's too close to where he's standing is on the
> mountain.
>
> FYI- I happened to look up "ECK Masters"
> (12th initiates) in Klemp's 1st Lexicon and
> read that these guys "have reached a state
> of consciousness of relative perfection."
> Yet, isn't this said of our (4th Plane) God?
> Didn't 14th Plane Klemp once say that he
> too "wasn't perfect?" Confusing isn't it?
> That's the whole point! This is why ECKists
> aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
> beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
> will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
> shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
> sort out the facts from the myth or from
> the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
> down to D.G. and to Klemp.
>
> ECKankar is all make believe and comfortable...
> it's the Easy Way!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Hello Avonblue and ALL,
> Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
> chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
> in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
> "adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
> wanted to make it clear to everyone there
> that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
> to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
> sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
> Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
> in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
> Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
> Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.
>
> Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
> how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
> word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
> and poorly made attempts at humor.
> ECKists act as though they are in a trance
> or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
> And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
> laughter... all the way to the bank.
>
> Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
> because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
> Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
> Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
> et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
> Klemp states this, of other religions, on
> page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
> stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
> if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
> and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
> Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
> wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
> is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
> Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
> mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?
>
> Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
> is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
> evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
> Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
> and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
> and Masters worshipped.
>
> Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
> be "worshipped" even though he has created
> an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
> Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
> Klemp! He states that he is one with the
> ECK and is the ECK!
>
> See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
> techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
> some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
> and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
> 22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
> but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
> thinking is just accepted without question. After
> years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
> one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
> and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
> that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
> that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
> to accept those lies as well.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> avonblue wrote:
>
>
> I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to
not
> worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
> consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
> increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
> been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
> by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
> pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
> in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would
chastise
> those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
> Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not
recognizing
> the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.
>
> In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
> the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
> expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
> cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
> the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.
>
> He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
> reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
> himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
> this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
> proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by
the
> message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible
to
> escape.
>
> Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
> this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
> know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
> brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
> inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
> been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
> Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and
only
> read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
> progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
> the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
> Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
> wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
> philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
> I actually believed some of this stuff!!!
>
> More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
> revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as
what
> quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
> the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
> emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
> offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
> books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
> the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that
matter,
> as just a lowly bodily function.
>

Hello Avonblue and All,
Yes, it always amazes me how people,
in general, tend to listen to these (male)
spokespeople/preachers/clerics of/for
"God" and think that they and their words
are "Holy." As Soul aren't we all Holy
and Divine? As Soul aren't we all equal?

Therefore why not go directly to the
Source and bypass the hearsay etc.?
Isn't this the True message that the
business of religion tends to hide
with its slight-of-hand tricks. Of course!
And, ECKankar is no exception.

However, ECKankar has the Initiation
game where everyone, except Klemp,
is striving, hoping, and desiring for
that next level up. Being "higher" on
the initiation ladder is supposed to
equate with having a higher consciousness
and this means one is closer to God
and to Knowing everything and being
Immortal, and free from fears etc.
But, like all other religions, ECKankar
must have a male leader. That's not
very enlightening for a "New Age Religion."
And the reasons for having only a
male leader is kind of lame... and silly.

Anyway, ECKists cannot leave or do
things on their own because they are
not yet worthy to do so. ECKists need
to be 12th Initiates (and that won't happen)
in order to go their own way and follow
their own "spiritual" path. It used to be
at the 7th initiation, but there were
strings attached to that promise.

The Truth is ECKists are there now,
regardless of initiation rank, if they
would only realize it. But, One has
to quit religion for the sake of Self.
This truly is "Being a Law Unto Oneself."
Soul does not need to rely upon hearsay,
spokespeople, what others have claimed
to be the Word of "God."

Go directly to the Source yourself in
this Here and Now. This has always
been the true and only Message given
to people by God.

Prometheus



avonblue wrote:
Prometheus said:
This is why ECKists
aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
sort out the facts from the myth or from
the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
down to D.G. and to Klemp.

Exactly - the minute you question or doubt (qualities of a rational mind) you're
told you must not be doing your spiritual exercises regularly (in other words
you are an inferior spiritual being) - which is just more brainwashing and a
continuation of the cycle of deception. Or your told "doubt is good" it allows
you to dig deeper and immerse yourself more into the "teachings". I like the
concept of free thinking and choice.
AB

prometheus wrote:
>
> BTW- It should, also, be pointed out that
> ECK H.I.s are "higher" than the "God" of all
> religions since this GOD is no higher than
> the 4th Plane! Now, explain to me why these
> H.I. "Gods" cannot communicate completely
> on the "inner" with the "highest" God... the
> LEM/Mahanta? Why are these ECKist Gods
> so limited? Is ECKankar a Big Fat Lie? Yes!
>
> Really, think about it. Klemp states in his
> "Autobiography," on page 385, that the
> God of all religions is a 4th (Mental) Plane
> God and most H.I.s are 5th-7th Plane.
> Now, H.I.s should ask themselves, after
> their heads deflate, how do I, as well as,
> Klemp demonstrate this Level of Awareness
> that is "beyond" God's Consciousness?
>
> Okay, wake up! Here's the Catch-22.
> ECKists cannot experience "God Consciousness,"
> permanently, unless they become 8th Initiates.
> So, the 4th Plane God's Consciousness
> can only be experienced permanently
> when they become 8th initiates! However,
> remember that this 4th Plane God is KAL,
> i.e. the Devil, Satan.
>
> BTW- Isn't Sugmad also referred to as "God"
> in the EK Teachings? Sure! So, 8ths can experience
> SUGMAD (God) Consciousness on a regular basis?
> I don't think Klemp would allow this interpretation!
> HK's too selfish to put even 8ths on that level.
> It's too close to where he's standing is on the
> mountain.
>
> FYI- I happened to look up "ECK Masters"
> (12th initiates) in Klemp's 1st Lexicon and
> read that these guys "have reached a state
> of consciousness of relative perfection."
> Yet, isn't this said of our (4th Plane) God?
> Didn't 14th Plane Klemp once say that he
> too "wasn't perfect?" Confusing isn't it?
> That's the whole point! This is why ECKists
> aren't supposed to question the ECK Teachings
> beyond their 2nd initiation, or else one
> will be Black Listed on Initiations and/or
> shunned. ECKists aren't permitted to
> sort out the facts from the myth or from
> the distortions and lies that Twitchell handed
> down to D.G. and to Klemp.
>
> ECKankar is all make believe and comfortable...
> it's the Easy Way!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Hello Avonblue and ALL,
> Klemp is a hypocrite. I saw and heard him
> chastise a woman at a Spiritual Laws Seminar
> in Toronto once because during a Q&A she
> "adoringly" asked him a question. Klemp
> wanted to make it clear to everyone there
> that he was Not to be worshipped. His words
> to her were cruel and overreactive. I felt
> sorry for her she was crushed. I'm sure
> Klemp saw this as using "tough love," but
> in truth he violated the: "Is it True; Is it
> Necessary; Is it Kind" spiritual rule (of the
> Buddha) that many ECKists attempt to follow.
>
> Then again, at EK Seminars just watch
> how ECKies hang onto Klemp's every
> word and laugh and giggle at his nervous
> and poorly made attempts at humor.
> ECKists act as though they are in a trance
> or under a spell... from a Black Magician.
> And, Klemp eats it up! He loves the silly
> laughter... all the way to the bank.
>
> Yes, ECKists still worship him, but it's
> because he is the "Mahanta" who is 10
> Planes of Con. HIGHER than the "God" of:
> Islam; Christianity; Judaism; Hinduism;
> et al because these are 4th Plane religions.
> Klemp states this, of other religions, on
> page 385 of his "Autobiography." PT
> stated it as well in the Shariyat. Thus,
> if "GOD" (Kal, devil, satan) is of 4th Plane
> and HK as LEM is of the 12th and as
> Mahanta of the 14th Plane then why
> wouldn't he be worshipped? BTW- When
> is Klemp going to start to act like a 14th
> Plane GOD? Why does "GOD" need snail-
> mail IROs or "outer" Seminars, etc.?
>
> Really, Klemp (even as the 12th Plane LEM)
> is not only much more "Higher" and spiritually
> evolved than Muhammad, Jesus, Krishna,
> Buddha, etc. but also more spiritually advanced
> and evolved than the "God" these Prophets,
> and Masters worshipped.
>
> Yet, Klemp states that he doesn't want to
> be "worshipped" even though he has created
> an "ECK Worship Service" (EWS). However,
> Who/what is "worshipped" at an EWS? It's
> Klemp! He states that he is one with the
> ECK and is the ECK!
>
> See, Klemp is using Black Magic and Brainwashing
> techniques on ECKists. Is this a Catch-22, or
> some kind of a Paradox? It's really just a manipulation
> and a lie. Then again, in some ways it is a Catch-
> 22 for ECKists. Klemp wants to have it both ways,
> but it's the ECKists' getting screwed. This delusional
> thinking is just accepted without question. After
> years and years of overlooking the obvious contradictions
> one finally gives in and "surrenders" their intellect
> and rational thinking. This is the "Leap of Faith"
> that HK has spoken about and it's the same one
> that the 4th Plane religionists must take in order
> to accept those lies as well.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> avonblue wrote:
>
>
> I always found it ironic the way eckankar claims its followers are taught to
not
> worship the personality of the master but instead to recognize the inner
> consciousness of whomever this being happens to be in the physical. Yet with
> increasing frequency since the Twitch/Gross era, numerous photos of Klemp have
> been produced and marketed to the ekkie public. Furthermore, as has been noted
> by others repeatedly, the photo(s) of Klemp are all of the
> pre-gray/balding/thinner man. I recall numerous conversations and discussions
> in classes, seminars, literature where eckists (or Klemp himself) would
chastise
> those not able to make the "spiritual" jump from Paul to Darwin or Darwin to
> Klemp, claiming they were worshipping or "attached" to the man, not
recognizing
> the inner consciousness beyond the physical form.
>
> In MIchael Largo's new book, "God's Lunatics" he's created an encyclopedia of
> the ridiculous and comical to the horrific and maniacal search for god as
> expressed in every conceivable religious practice throughout the ages (he even
> cites eckankar with Venusian origins). Most interesting is his description of
> the Cult of Personality or Celebrity Worship.
>
> He claims Khrushchev was the first to use the phrase "cult of personality" in
> reference to his disapproval of Stalin's massive media campaign to elevate
> himself to a god. He tells how Hitler, Mao, Saddam, Kim-Jong-II and others of
> this ilk who "made their omniscient presence a part of daily life through the
> proliferation of their image." These images, he states, were accompanied by
the
> message of their goodness, wisdom and power and this influence was impossible
to
> escape.
>
> Does this sound at all familiar? I find it very revealing of the cult ethics
> this organization openly utilizes but never professes to. Having been there I
> know how difficult it is to see the trickery when you're caught in the
> brainwashing and taught over and over to "trust" the "master" or trust your
> inner guidance. Of course the inner guidance eckists believe they have has all
> been expertly crafted from their very first days of participation. How?
> Remember being taught to avoid the writings of other teachers/practices and
only
> read ek literature in the beginning as it will "confuse you" and slow your
> progress? If you shun, doubt, disregard the "master" you risk becoming lost in
> the astral worlds... , really? So we're supposed to accept a farm boy from
> Wisconsin was sent here to guide us back - that we have no ability or inherent
> wisdom ourselves? If we don't accept eckankar over any number of crackpot
> philosophies out there we'll have to return again and again until we do? Wow -
> I actually believed some of this stuff!!!
>
> More interesting but beyond the scope of this post is what neuroscience has
> revealed about the mind and it's functional ability and deficits as well as
what
> quantum physics has revealed about the seen and unseen physical universe over
> the last 10 years or so. Seems all the stuff of religion and spirituality is
> emerging science after all. All the inner powers and gifts that eck claimed to
> offer was there all along. Take a little time to investigate even the layman
> books on these subjects - it's fascinating. Of course that's if you can get by
> the other ek credo that looks at the mind, and rational thought for that
matter,
> as just a lowly bodily function.
>

I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
here, to respond and vent their
frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
their RESA, etc.

What is it that you don't like, but have
to keep to yourself?

How's that local ECK Newsletter going?

How are the Satsang classes doing?

When's the last time Klemp wrote a
discourse? Oh well, he's got more
important things on his mind like
his next worthless redundant book.

NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
with this site I understand that. Instead,
share about what bugs you about your
RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
the ECK Teachings in general etc.

What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
Share your true, repressed, feelings about
the direction ECKankar has taken over the
past 28 years.

How's are those ECK Worship Services?
Do the topics seem limited and/or need
to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
Klemp needs to sell his materials...
because you will have good karma and
be noticed for that next initiation approval.

Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account  in
order to share anonymously. We want to
hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
aren't permitted to discuss openly or
even behind closed doors!

BTW- Former ECKists and members of
ESA can, also, share what their complaints
were back when they/we were still
ECKists.

One thing that I never liked is that
I could not criticize anything, or
anyone's behaviour when I saw
something wrong or out of place.
This was one reason as to why I
volunteered for leadership positions
and was promoted to high Satsang
positions. I could now change pictures
etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
to be very careful as to how I approached
some things and some people who
were not following the Guidelines,
as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
psychological problems. This, at times,
was like walking upon eggshells.

My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
suspicious and thought she could read
people's minds! She did have her good-
sides, but when she was focused upon
her ECK duties she became too serious
and put her guard up. This caused her
"good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
top RESAs and is probably still on a short
list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
I did learn a lot about the internal workings
of the ECKankar org from her even
though I had to take some abuse from
her from time-to-time. The key is to
keep smiling and act happy regardless!
This is a big part of playing HK's game.

Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
her good-side and nobody wanted to
be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
She had a hot/quick temper too!
IMO-Her main weaknesses were
in thinking too highly of herself (as
a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
and authority. Some of the people/EK
issues that she felt she had problems
with were actually very trivial in the large
scheme of things. There was, also, a
lot of micro-management and "looking
over the shoulder" taking place. She
definitely contributed to several H.I.s
pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
She probably saw it as good riddance
or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
if the "quality" of belief or ability or
"consciousness" was ever an issue to
begin with, then, why have so many
duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
question that couldn't really be asked.
Except, one typical answer is that,
"consciousness comes and goes daily
or moment to moment and even ECK
Masters can fall." However, that's also
why Klemp's words hold no real value
either. When he changes his on-stage
talks he could be coming from a KAL
state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
doesn't change can be from a lower,
fluctuating, state of con as well.

Still, I had to be careful and could not
criticize anything outside of my local
Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
coming from the ESC could Not be
questioned (although I would at times).
They wanted us to set up experimental
programs and trainings to see if these
could be used nation or worldwide.
Of course other select Satsang areas
were doing the same thing or had a
different assignment. It amounted to
a lot of "busy work" and some things
did eventually get implemented but
much was never accepted and was
discarded or filed away at the ESC.
Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
answer on anything, except membership
issues, from the ESC.

The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
"projects" are still used for this purpose.
Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
money for Klemp's palaces!

BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
health insurance, real estate investments,
foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.

Basically, these are the four main principles
that Klemp has ECKists follow:

1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
2. the Co-worker with God principle;
3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
4. the Initiation carrot principle.

These four HK/EK principles take precedence
over everything else. In fact, there is no other
focus.

Prometheus

Free download of "Confessions" and "The Path Of The Masters"

Free download of "Confessions Of A Godseeker"
You can download a free digital copy of Ford Johnson's book here. On
the left side of the page, click on PDF, then click on the floppy icon on the
upper left and save it to your computer.
http://www.archive.org/details/ConfessionsOfAGodSeeker

Free download of "The Path Of The Masters"
You can download a free digital copy of Julian Johnson's book here. On
the left side of the page, click on PDF, then click on the floppy icon on the
upper left and save it to your computer.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePathOfTheMasters

Hello Jonathan,
Thanks for sharing this. You've
jogged my memory and have
reminded me of some other
things that I'd like to share
after/under your Journal entries.


jonathan wrote:

[snip]
Diary entry from 10 days after I left Eckankar in December 2008 - Why I left
Eckankar

Below is an entry from my Diary on Dec 27, 2008 which is ten days after I
resigned from Eckankar. I'm finding it very interesting to go back and read this
stuff. And I don't think it is because I am egotistical. I like to see what I
wrote in the two weeks after I resigned from Eckankar because back then I was
right in the middle of it.

By the way, in a previous post about an hour ago I mentioned that it was in 1995
to 2000 that I noticed that the Annandale worship services were for beginners.
Below (a year and a half ago) I said that I noticed it in 2000-2003. I believe
that I noticed it before 2000, but it started to really bother me from 1999
onward.

---------------------------------------------------
Journal
Saturday, December 27, 2008

Diary in real time.

6:13 AM
I've been thinking about why I left Eckankar. Some of the reasons why I left
Eckankar as related to specific events that took place.

1. When I received my second initiation about three years into Eckankar at the
___________, Pennsylvania, Eck center. {circa 1982} When the initiator did the
initiation she told me that I had to make a pledge that I would dedicate my life
to the Living Eck master. I was really shocked and was thinking to myself "What
is going on here? Did I join some kind of cult?"


***
Prometheus [P]: The revelations in Ford's book
"Confessions of a God Seeker" was the final
straw for me. There were too many contradictions
to ignore. I had been turning a blind-eye to
the lies and doubts for years and tried to get
with the program and believe, but I didn't have
enough blind "faith." I had had spiritual experiences
and revelations, etc. prior to Eckankar and these
had nothing to do with Klemp or any "Mahanta"
regardless of the 20/20 hindsight chicken/egg
claims they try to promote. Klemp needs to
communicate via snail-mail, talks, the printed
word, emails, but can't on the "Inner" and that's
an obvious truth that is constantly denied by all
ECKists.

Yes, as an ECKist, it was difficult to discover
(and admit) that one's "Spiritual Growth,"
in Eckankar, is dependent upon being a
salesperson for Klemp and Company. And,
you're not even permitted to see where
the money goes. At least on the local level
we could see where it went, but the ESC's
Eckankar "Board" isn't privy to every expenditure
and all of the assets. This raises a Red Flag
since Eckankar is supposed to be open
and above board.

Sure, there are "secret spiritual teachings"
to protect those with a lower consciousness
so that they won't be "burned," but why
is the business (4th Plane) side secret?
BTW- Those "EK Secret Teachings" are just
Mental Plane thoughts, words and concepts
too!

Eckankar practices Bait and Switch. H.I.s
only tell people the good part (their
subjective stories) or else people would
be turned away by knowing the truth.
It's not that these newbies can't handle it,
but because most people will be able to
see through the facade. After all, these
unbrainwashed new-comers haven't had
the on-going indoctrination that longtime
H.I.s have. They would be looking at Eckanakr
with new eyes and with clear and fresh
perspectives and this would allow them
to see the E-cult's trap. That's why Klemp
trains his H.I.s to use "stories," with dreams
and everyday miracles along with promises
of greater experiences in order to reel the
suckers in. However, it takes a special person
to spread HK's bullshit. Most H.I.s can't lie
or talk about experiences they haven't had.
This is why they use other people's imagined
or distorted stories and fabrications.
***

2. About six years into Eckankar when I first read in one of the Eckankar books
that if you leave Eckankar, terrible things will happen to you (astral Hells,
etc.)

***
[P] I can't remember that far back or what
I though way back then about PT's scare
tactics. However, It could be that this was
one of the factors that caused me to have
had doubts and to remain skeptical for
years to come. This was too much like the
religion that I had left and exchanged for
"the highest spiritual path" (Eckankar).
Why would the "highest spiritual path
known to mankind (Eckankar)" try to
scare their members in order to prevent
them from leaving by making threats of
Astral Hells? Wouldn't a "highly evolved
religion" or spiritual path just let people
go since they're obviously not ready to
continue the Journey on that path? People
make mistakes. Yet, according to Eckankar
scripture, ECK members are condemned
to Astral Hells if they (Soul) practice their
God given right, "Free Will," and leave the
EK fold. That's not right! And, this is one
more problem, out of many, that I had
with Twitchell's and Klemp's paranoid
and controlling approach that is said to
be "spiritual" and the "highest/fastest
path to God-Realization." it's just more
religious B.S.
***

3. When I was attending the worship services in the Annandale, Virginia Eck
center in 2000-2003 and I noticed that the worship services seemed to be for
beginners in Eckankar.

***
[P]: True, ECKists are discouraged from seeing
and using this event as an actual Worship Service.
The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
compete with the Christian Worship Services
and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
the appearance of being less cult like too.

There are two different ways in which the EWS
can be conducted. The one most Satsangs use
is to have an ECK Cleric in charge and they select
the topic from an "approved list." They give a
sermon of sorts (share), but If new people show
up the focus will usually change and the EWS
will become an Intro. The other format will
have the EK Cleric schedule an ECK member
in good standing and with Arahata Training
to give a 10-20 minute talk in front of the
congregation. The seating will be different too,
more theatre style versus circles.
***

4. In the 2007-2008 time frame, I learned at the ___________ Eck center that I
wasn't allowed to express a divergent opinion.

***
[P]: Correct! Everyone has to be on the
same page. If you aren't then you will
be guided back to that page or the topic
will be changed by using various Arahata
techniques. Or, it will be suggested that
you either go to the "Inner" for an answer
or to write to Klemp. Sometimes an ESA
session will be suggested. At times I would
suggest that people to call me at home and
we'd discuss it further.
***

5. Harold Klemp dummying-down the principles of Eckankar (a very major reason).

***
[P]: True! The EWS, the Intros, the EWWS
and Major EK Seminars, the books, the
videos, and everything is dumbed down
and repeated over and over. The "stories"
may vary, of course, but it's nothing new
or any more relevant than what any other
religion has to offer... except for the LEM
and the Initiation game. ECK doesn't need
theologians and religious scholars to decipher
its scripture since they have a "Living" master
to do this for them. Except, HK doesn't allow
any discussion or differing perspectives
because how can someone, even an 8th
or 9th initiate, question the authority and
consciousness of a 14th who is 10 times
greater than GOD. Of course any discussion
would be limited to the Mental Plane which
is controlled by KAL (i.e. Devil, Satan) so
why bother to explain it so that we could
understand the distortions. Thus, the 4th
Plane ECK scripture and books are under
the control of KAL, as well, and yet ECKists
live by these thoughts, words, and mental
constructs. Even the positive is of a lower
consciousness.

And, dreams are mind (lower plane) driven
too. However, ECKists don't seem to really
think too far beyond their nose. They are
good with imagining things, but that too is
a limiting mental (4th Plane) process when
one is restricted to remain inside the box
of ECK Dogma (rules, laws, guidelines,
opinions, etc.). Therefore, creation is limited
via following dogma and rules and the words
of another. However, where is the Spiritual
Freedom as Soul? Klemp is supposed to be
a Spiritual Guide, but has become a benevolent
dictator-God to be worshipped. If HK was
truly a "spiritual guide" ECKists would be
encouraged versus discouraged to have
open discussions on any topic so that EK's
dogmatic issues could be resolved. Soul
equals Soul is not practiced in Eckankar.
It's just more cheap talk.
***

6. Ego conflicts with other Eckists are a minor reason. Every organization is
going to have people getting into ego conflicts with each other.
6:25 AM

***
[P]: True. However, one would expect H.I.s
to be above and beyond the attachment to
the lower self. Eckankar is supposed to be
"special" and the "most advanced" spiritual
path anywhere on this planet and beyond!
H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
non-ECKists on the planet worships! H.I.s
are Gods and a Law unto their egotistical
and delusional self. This belief is what Klemp
promotes in order to/while selling his wares.
[end]
***

In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
> here, to respond and vent their
> frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
> their RESA, etc.
>
> What is it that you don't like, but have
> to keep to yourself?
>
> How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
>
> How are the Satsang classes doing?
>
> When's the last time Klemp wrote a
> discourse? Oh well, he's got more
> important things on his mind like
> his next worthless redundant book.
>
> NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
> with this site I understand that. Instead,
> share about what bugs you about your
> RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
> the ECK Teachings in general etc.
>
> What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
> or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
> to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
> Share your true, repressed, feelings about
> the direction ECKankar has taken over the
> past 28 years.
>
> How's are those ECK Worship Services?
> Do the topics seem limited and/or need
> to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
> are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
> Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
> Klemp needs to sell his materials...
> because you will have good karma and
> be noticed for that next initiation approval.
>
> Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account  in
> order to share anonymously. We want to
> hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
> aren't permitted to discuss openly or
> even behind closed doors!
>
> BTW- Former ECKists and members of
> ESA can, also, share what their complaints
> were back when they/we were still
> ECKists.
>
> One thing that I never liked is that
> I could not criticize anything, or
> anyone's behaviour when I saw
> something wrong or out of place.
> This was one reason as to why I
> volunteered for leadership positions
> and was promoted to high Satsang
> positions. I could now change pictures
> etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
> to be very careful as to how I approached
> some things and some people who
> were not following the Guidelines,
> as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
> psychological problems. This, at times,
> was like walking upon eggshells.
>
> My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
> critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
> detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
> suspicious and thought she could read
> people's minds! She did have her good-
> sides, but when she was focused upon
> her ECK duties she became too serious
> and put her guard up. This caused her
> "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
> even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
> top RESAs and is probably still on a short
> list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
> I did learn a lot about the internal workings
> of the ECKankar org from her even
> though I had to take some abuse from
> her from time-to-time. The key is to
> keep smiling and act happy regardless!
> This is a big part of playing HK's game.
>
> Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
> her good-side and nobody wanted to
> be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
> every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
> She had a hot/quick temper too!
> IMO-Her main weaknesses were
> in thinking too highly of herself (as
> a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
> of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
> and authority. Some of the people/EK
> issues that she felt she had problems
> with were actually very trivial in the large
> scheme of things. There was, also, a
> lot of micro-management and "looking
> over the shoulder" taking place. She
> definitely contributed to several H.I.s
> pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
> She probably saw it as good riddance
> or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
> if the "quality" of belief or ability or
> "consciousness" was ever an issue to
> begin with, then, why have so many
> duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
> 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
> question that couldn't really be asked.
> Except, one typical answer is that,
> "consciousness comes and goes daily
> or moment to moment and even ECK
> Masters can fall." However, that's also
> why Klemp's words hold no real value
> either. When he changes his on-stage
> talks he could be coming from a KAL
> state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
> consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
> and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
> doesn't change can be from a lower,
> fluctuating, state of con as well.
>
> Still, I had to be careful and could not
> criticize anything outside of my local
> Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
> coming from the ESC could Not be
> questioned (although I would at times).
> They wanted us to set up experimental
> programs and trainings to see if these
> could be used nation or worldwide.
> Of course other select Satsang areas
> were doing the same thing or had a
> different assignment. It amounted to
> a lot of "busy work" and some things
> did eventually get implemented but
> much was never accepted and was
> discarded or filed away at the ESC.
> Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
> answer on anything, except membership
> issues, from the ESC.
>
> The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
> used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
> future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
> "projects" are still used for this purpose.
> Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
> of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
> to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
> Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
> in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
> money for Klemp's palaces!
>
> BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
> where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
> retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
> health insurance, real estate investments,
> foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
> Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
>
> Basically, these are the four main principles
> that Klemp has ECKists follow:
>
> 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
> 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
> 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
> 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
>
> These four HK/EK principles take precedence
> over everything else. In fact, there is no other
> focus.
>
> Prometheus
>

Reply to thread.

See post by Etznab in context to the
following a.r.e. thread.

http://tinyurl.com/2dpl4ol

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/80cec5\
e262434d8b/4bd2b9a988c1bcbe?hl=en#4bd2b9a988c1bcbe

-----Original Message-----
From: avonblue1212 <gowiththeflow1212@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 13, 2010 6:21 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: All ECKists Should Respond To
This In Order To Vent

 
In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
> here, to respond and vent their
> frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
> their RESA, etc.
>
> What is it that you don't like, but have
> to keep to yourself?
>
> How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
>
> How are the Satsang classes doing?
>
> When's the last time Klemp wrote a
> discourse? Oh well, he's got more
> important things on his mind like
> his next worthless redundant book.
>
> NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
> with this site I understand that. Instead,
> share about what bugs you about your
> RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
> the ECK Teachings in general etc.
>
> What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
> or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
> to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
> Share your true, repressed, feelings about
> the direction ECKankar has taken over the
> past 28 years.
>
> How's are those ECK Worship Services?
> Do the topics seem limited and/or need
> to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
> are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
> Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
> Klemp needs to sell his materials...
> because you will have good karma and
> be noticed for that next initiation approval.
>
> Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account  in
> order to share anonymously. We want to
> hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
> aren't permitted to discuss openly or
> even behind closed doors!
>
> BTW- Former ECKists and members of
> ESA can, also, share what their complaints
> were back when they/we were still
> ECKists.
>
> One thing that I never liked is that
> I could not criticize anything, or
> anyone's behaviour when I saw
> something wrong or out of place.
> This was one reason as to why I
> volunteered for leadership positions
> and was promoted to high Satsang
> positions. I could now change pictures
> etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
> to be very careful as to how I approached
> some things and some people who
> were not following the Guidelines,
> as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
> psychological problems. This, at times,
> was like walking upon eggshells.
>
> My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
> critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
> detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
> suspicious and thought she could read
> people's minds! She did have her good-
> sides, but when she was focused upon
> her ECK duties she became too serious
> and put her guard up. This caused her
> "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
> even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
> top RESAs and is probably still on a short
> list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
> I did learn a lot about the internal workings
> of the ECKankar org from her even
> though I had to take some abuse from
> her from time-to-time. The key is to
> keep smiling and act happy regardless!
> This is a big part of playing HK's game.
>
> Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
> her good-side and nobody wanted to
> be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
> every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
> She had a hot/quick temper too!
> IMO-Her main weaknesses were
> in thinking too highly of herself (as
> a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
> of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
> and authority. Some of the people/EK
> issues that she felt she had problems
> with were actually very trivial in the large
> scheme of things. There was, also, a
> lot of micro-management and "looking
> over the shoulder" taking place. She
> definitely contributed to several H.I.s
> pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
> She probably saw it as good riddance
> or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
> if the "quality" of belief or ability or
> "consciousness" was ever an issue to
> begin with, then, why have so many
> duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
> 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
> question that couldn't really be asked.
> Except, one typical answer is that,
> "consciousness comes and goes daily
> or moment to moment and even ECK
> Masters can fall." However, that's also
> why Klemp's words hold no real value
> either. When he changes his on-stage
> talks he could be coming from a KAL
> state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
> consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
> and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
> doesn't change can be from a lower,
> fluctuating, state of con as well.
>
> Still, I had to be careful and could not
> criticize anything outside of my local
> Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
> coming from the ESC could Not be
> questioned (although I would at times).
> They wanted us to set up experimental
> programs and trainings to see if these
> could be used nation or worldwide.
> Of course other select Satsang areas
> were doing the same thing or had a
> different assignment. It amounted to
> a lot of "busy work" and some things
> did eventually get implemented but
> much was never accepted and was
> discarded or filed away at the ESC.
> Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
> answer on anything, except membership
> issues, from the ESC.
>
> The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
> used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
> future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
> "projects" are still used for this purpose.
> Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
> of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
> to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
> Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
> in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
> money for Klemp's palaces!
>
> BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
> where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
> retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
> health insurance, real estate investments,
> foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
> Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
>
> Basically, these are the four main principles
> that Klemp has ECKists follow:
>
> 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
> 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
> 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
> 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
>
> These four HK/EK principles take precedence
> over everything else. In fact, there is no other
> focus.
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Avonblue and All,
I agree that "Eckankar is the
Amway of the spiritual world,"
although, Amway does have
many products that actually
work versus the products Klemp
sells!

BTW- I was looking at Eckankar's
June 2010 The Mystic World and
saw that Klemp was promoting
PT's false lineage dogma by using
quotes from PT's "Stranger By
The River," "The Riddle of God."
Klemp likes to refer to Twit as
Peddar Zaskq and to quote Rebazar.
But I was wondering, once again
as I did when I was an ECKist,
Why does Rebazar speak using
words like "thee' and "ye?" This
"Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
who is over 500 years old and
who can travel anywhere physically
or otherwise and who PT claimed
trained him apparently stepped in
as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
Power... still speaks using thee
and ye?

Hmmmmm? That's another thing.
Does Rebazar only "travel" on the
"inner planes"  via his Soul Body
or does he also "travel" and reappear
in his Physical Body? If RT does "travel"
and reassemble his atoms or whatever
to get here and there then why doesn't
he ever speak at Major EK Seminars?
Why can't Klemp do these same things
and, at least, slow down his own aging
process? It's quite a fantasy isn't it?
It sounds like another "Talons of Time"
novel of PT's. I wonder if RT has any
unknown "Spiderman" abilities too?

There are so many questions that
ECKists can't and won't ask, or even
think about! Why? Because they don't
want to know the truth. They're afraid
of the answers. Realizing the Truth
would mean that their comfortable
little world would collapse and then
what? What does one replace a religion
with? Well, not with another religion...
that's what we did in joining Eckankar.

Plus, what happens with those wasted
years and initiations and those EK
friends? But, the Freedom from Religion
is great! It's a new area of exploration
and is well worth the trouble and
change. It's the original path that
Soul was always seeking... freedom
from Dogma and of those being placed
upon a pedestal over you (Soul).

Basically, religions serve a purpose
when we are young, immature, naive
and are still growing and exploring
our higher possibilities. But, all religions
eventually need to be dropped away
before they become obsessive and
codependent traps. However, most
people will always need a religion
and to be led around by others. Those
"followers" are not seeking or able
to realize the true Self or else they
would not place themselves on the
lower rungs of "initiation" ladders.

There aren't that many Souls who still
believe in (Know) and experience "God"
and the Holy Spirit, or whatever one wants
to call this Divine Force/Intelligence, and
Who Don't Belong to a Religion! These truly
Free One's are unique!

Prometheus


avonblue gowiththeflow wrote:
In my opinion eckankar is the Amway of the spiritual world.

prometheus wrote:

> I'm asking all of the lurking ECKists,
> here, to respond and vent their
> frustrations with Klemp, Eckankar,
> their RESA, etc.
>
> What is it that you don't like, but have
> to keep to yourself?
>
> How's that local ECK Newsletter going?
>
> How are the Satsang classes doing?
>
> When's the last time Klemp wrote a
> discourse? Oh well, he's got more
> important things on his mind like
> his next worthless redundant book.
>
> NOTE: Don't share your unhappiness
> with this site I understand that. Instead,
> share about what bugs you about your
> RESA, about Eckankar, about Klemp or
> the ECK Teachings in general etc.
>
> What would get you Black Listed, demoted,
> or shunned by fellow ECKists if you chose
> to speak you mind and not bite your tongue.
> Share your true, repressed, feelings about
> the direction ECKankar has taken over the
> past 28 years.
>
> How's are those ECK Worship Services?
> Do the topics seem limited and/or need
> to be from an "pre-approved" list? How
> are the turnouts for those HU Chants and
> Open Houses? Low to zero I'll bet. Still,
> Klemp needs to sell his materials...
> because you will have good karma and
> be noticed for that next initiation approval.
>
> Lurkers: Start another Yahoo account in
> order to share anonymously. We want to
> hear about the real Eckankar that EKists
> aren't permitted to discuss openly or
> even behind closed doors!
>
> BTW- Former ECKists and members of
> ESA can, also, share what their complaints
> were back when they/we were still
> ECKists.
>
> One thing that I never liked is that
> I could not criticize anything, or
> anyone's behaviour when I saw
> something wrong or out of place.
> This was one reason as to why I
> volunteered for leadership positions
> and was promoted to high Satsang
> positions. I could now change pictures
> etc. in the ECK Center. Still, I had
> to be very careful as to how I approached
> some things and some people who
> were not following the Guidelines,
> as well as, those ECKists with behavioural/
> psychological problems. This, at times,
> was like walking upon eggshells.
>
> My first RESA was very rigid, analytical,
> critical, intimidating, insensitive, controlling,
> detail/business oriented, hot and cold,
> suspicious and thought she could read
> people's minds! She did have her good-
> sides, but when she was focused upon
> her ECK duties she became too serious
> and put her guard up. This caused her
> "good-side" to fluctuate off/on. What's
> even funnier is that she was one of Klemp's
> top RESAs and is probably still on a short
> list for the 8th initiation. I admit that
> I did learn a lot about the internal workings
> of the ECKankar org from her even
> though I had to take some abuse from
> her from time-to-time. The key is to
> keep smiling and act happy regardless!
> This is a big part of playing HK's game.
>
> Anyway, It was a challenge to get on
> her good-side and nobody wanted to
> be on her bad-side. I saw that happen
> every now and then and it wasn't pretty.
> She had a hot/quick temper too!
> IMO-Her main weaknesses were
> in thinking too highly of herself (as
> a RESA and a Guardian) and too highly
> of her mental and "spiritual" abilities
> and authority. Some of the people/EK
> issues that she felt she had problems
> with were actually very trivial in the large
> scheme of things. There was, also, a
> lot of micro-management and "looking
> over the shoulder" taking place. She
> definitely contributed to several H.I.s
> pulling back and dropping out-of-sight.
> She probably saw it as good riddance
> or if you can't take the heat... Then again,
> if the "quality" of belief or ability or
> "consciousness" was ever an issue to
> begin with, then, why have so many
> duds/losers been promoted to the 5th,
> 6th and 7th Initiations? That was another
> question that couldn't really be asked.
> Except, one typical answer is that,
> "consciousness comes and goes daily
> or moment to moment and even ECK
> Masters can fall." However, that's also
> why Klemp's words hold no real value
> either. When he changes his on-stage
> talks he could be coming from a KAL
> state of consciousness. Thus, this lower
> consciousness gets broadcast, recorded,
> and transcribed into books. Or, what HK
> doesn't change can be from a lower,
> fluctuating, state of con as well.
>
> Still, I had to be careful and could not
> criticize anything outside of my local
> Satsang area. The nonsense and orders
> coming from the ESC could Not be
> questioned (although I would at times).
> They wanted us to set up experimental
> programs and trainings to see if these
> could be used nation or worldwide.
> Of course other select Satsang areas
> were doing the same thing or had a
> different assignment. It amounted to
> a lot of "busy work" and some things
> did eventually get implemented but
> much was never accepted and was
> discarded or filed away at the ESC.
> Plus, it took forever to get a definitive
> answer on anything, except membership
> issues, from the ESC.
>
> The Early Vahana Projects were, also,
> used to "shake the tree" in order to reveal
> future EK leaders (worker bees). Today,
> "projects" are still used for this purpose.
> Unfortunately, the ongoing public promotion
> of ECKankar, and of Klemp, has nothing
> to do with real Spiritual growth and God-
> Realization. That was why I joined ECKankar
> in the first place! It Wasn't to bring in
> money for Klemp's palaces!
>
> BTW- It really is too bad that we can't see
> where ALL the ECKankar money goes... payroll,
> retirement, houses, stocks and bonds, cars,
> health insurance, real estate investments,
> foreign bank accounts, etc. I'll bet the EK
> Board doesn't get to see a detailed list either.
>
> Basically, these are the four main principles
> that Klemp has ECKists follow:
>
> 1. the Inflow-outflow karma/growth principle;
> 2. the Co-worker with God principle;
> 3. the selling of ECKankar/Klemp principle;
> 4. the Initiation carrot principle.
>
> These four HK/EK principles take precedence
> over everything else. In fact, there is no other
> focus.
>
> Prometheus

Promethus and all,

#2
A few more comments about Eckankar's curses.

I'd like to mention something for the benefit of those of you who haven't been
able to followed all the past discussionss on this message board. I was over at
a.r.e. (the Google Group alt.religion.eckankar) talking about something and one
of the Eckists over there said that I was "regurgitating" (their words)
Prometheus' old theory about..... I don't even remember exactly what the subject
for discussion was, but it doesn't matter. I very adamantly pointed out to them,
that, yes, I agree with a lot of what Prometheus says, but I had figured it all
out long before I read about Prometheus discussing it on this message board. So
I am not copying Prometheus and Prometheus has never copied me. We both are very
independently-minded people and it just so happens that we came to many of the
same conclusions about what was/is going on in Eckankar. I did not even read ET
or ESA until Dec 17 (the day I quit Eckankar) or Dec 18 in 2008. It was around
that time; please forgive my bad memory.

And when I started reading Ford Johnson's book (1-3 months before I left
Eckankar?) I had the exact same experience. As I was reading his book I clearly
remember when Ford was talking about Eckankar's curses. and I said to myself
"Yes! Ford saw it too!" It made me feel better for two reasons. First of all,
Ford is a very intelligent person. Secondly he was a 7th initiate and 29 year
member of Eckankar so he obviously knew the teachings of Eckankar as well as
anyone.  And so I said to myself "If Ford saw it too, I'm obviously not
hallucinating or imagining things." My recollection is that Ford said that he
was late in seeing them. I believe he said he never noticed them in his first 20
years in Eckankar. I really think the reason I noticed them so early in Eckankar
is because they struck fear in me at the time I read them.

So the curses in Eckankar seem to affect some people, but not others.
Prometheus, I believe that you have said in the past that they didn't affect
you, or that you even doubted their effectiveness. I think the truth is that
they affect some people, but not others.

#3
Prometheus said about the Eckankar Worship Service:

"The EWS is normally scheduled on Sundays to
compete with the Christian Worship Services
and for Klemp to fit-in with his fellow religious
leaders in the Minneapolis community by having
Sunday Worship Services. This seems or gives
the appearance of being less cult like too."

JJ - I'm not sure Klemp is trying to compete with the Christian Worship
Services, that's awfully optimistic of Eckankar, but I agree fully with the rest
of your statement.

EWS - - > Eckankar looks more like Christianity
EWS - - > Eckankar looks less cult-like

But you jogged my memory of something that I had somehow completely forgotten
about. Awhile ago (pre 1999?) I was looking at a Sunday newspaper at the ads for
churches and their Sunday church services. In the newspaper, each church of many
different Christian denominations had their own little ad. You may not believe
what I just remembered. There was an ad for "Eckankar Church." And it was mixed
right in with all of the Christian worship services! I was gobsmacked. I said to
myself "How the heck did that get in there!?" In other words, I thought surely
that the editor of the newspaper had made a mistake.

But as I look back on it now, I realize what really happened. Some Eckist had
snuck that in there while attempting to pass Eckankar off as "being like
Christianity." And this was in a very conservative part of the United States. I
bet the editor(s) at the newspaper just about went through the roof when they
found out the truth about the "Eckankar Church." That it wasn't a Christian
Church.

Oh well. It just proves how far members of Eckankar will go to try to hoodwink
the public. I'm very glad I remembered this. I remember it very clearly though.
When I saw the words "Eckankar Church" I was just about screaming at the
newspaper "How can you call Eckankar a church?" It was if I was insulted. After
all, how could someone compare a mere church to Eckankar? (my programming as an
Eckist).

I was so naive back then. This was before I had started to notice the
Christianization of Eckankar. The Chistianization was there, but I just wasn't
seeing it for what it was.

#6
Prometheus wrote:

"H.I.s, supposedly, are more advanced (via
initiation) than the 4th Plane God that ALL
non-ECKists on the planet worships!"

Right again, Prometheus. And you mentioned something very important that I
didn't think of in my previous comments on this topic. And it is VERY applicable
to me. That is, I had extremely high expectations of these people. After all,
wasn't I being taught that Eckankar is the highest religion of them all? And
that all other religions in the World have sprung out of Eckankar? My gosh! Then
these people in Eckankar who were the "higher initiates" should be super
amazing, super great, and super awesome! So yes, my expectations were very very
high.

And then when these people didn't just fall below my expectations, but fell WAY
below, it was hard on me. And I seriously started to wonder "Are these people
really as high as they are supposed to be? As high I as I think they are?" So it
did affect me. I think that, consistent with my personality of being
disappointed with others, I just withdrew from the whole thing and lived in my
own world of Twitchell's books. I'll admit that I did enjoy Klemp's tapes too (I
guess I shouldn't admit that here). But most of his books were boring, and were
in many cases just "reprints" of the exact same stories in his tapes.

So, Prometheus, I actually admire you for being actively involved in Eckankar
because I couldn't handle it. So your experiences led to a very different
experience with Eckankar. I always have been a loner, and after having only a
few bad interactions with members of Eckankar, I withdrew into my own world
which also means that I pretty much stopped going to Eckankar meetings. This all
happened very early in my interaction with Eckankar: probably mid 1980s (I
joined in 1979).

Toward the end of my time in Eckankar, I started attending a lot more EWSs. I
think I was in a situation where I wanted to give Eckankar a chance to prove
itself to me.  I was getting very cynical about the whole thing by now. But the
more I went to ESWs, and the more I interacted with Eckists, the more I got a
really bad impression of them. I mean, they all had their good qualities too.
But what bothered me was the blind dedication  that these people had toward
Eckankar, and how they would defend Eckankar no matter what. It was very
disturbing to me.

And so I finally did decide that there just too many negatives.

Promethues wrote:

"But I was wondering, once again
as I did when I was an ECKist,
Why does Rebazar speak using
words like "thee' and "ye?" This
"Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
who is over 500 years old and
who can travel anywhere physically
or otherwise and who PT claimed
trained him apparently stepped in
as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
Power... still speaks using thee
and ye?"

JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking. "Isn't
this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it sounds Holy
in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old versions of
the Bible were written in Old English?

And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:

Wikipedia - Thou
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
"Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of Shakespeare,
in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the King James
Bible.

So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
about a few things:

1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
English?

Wikipedia - Old English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
"Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."

Wikipedia - 5th Century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
"The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."

Wikipedia - 12th Century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
"As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
Era."

Rebazar's birth year
1965-500=1465

If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.

Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...

- - - - - - - - - - -

UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.

I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.

I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.

Search results of "Confessions"

"old english" - no occurrences
"king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
"thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
affirmations.

But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States.  Plus,
I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably got
the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't think
Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading the
King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old English
which was spoken from 450 to 1150.

Questions for further study.
1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
feel comfortable with it?
3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
and ye in their speech?

All,

I know that some member of Eckankar is going to say "Maybe Rebazar was reading
the KIng James version of the Bible."

My answer to that is that Eckankar teaches that all religions came from
Ecknakar. That means that Christianity came from Eckankar. So why would Rebazar
have been reading the Bible?"

Oh, OK. Now I get it! How could I have been so stupid! Rebazar Tarz was the
person who originated Old English!

Jonathan


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> Promethues wrote:
>
> "But I was wondering, once again
> as I did when I was an ECKist,
> Why does Rebazar speak using
> words like "thee' and "ye?" This
> "Torch Bearer" and former Mahanta
> who is over 500 years old and
> who can travel anywhere physically
> or otherwise and who PT claimed
> trained him apparently stepped in
> as the LEM (for Sudar/Kirpal) and
> handed Twitchell the Rod of ECK
> Power... still speaks using thee
> and ye?"
>
> JJ - After I stopped laughing at your funny comment, I started thinking.
"Isn't this ye and thee stuff actually Old English? And the reason that it
sounds Holy in a traditional Christian sort of way is because some of the old
versions of the Bible were written in Old English?
>
> And so I turned to that "bastion of truth." That "torchbearer of all things
correct." Not Eckankar, but, Wikipedia:
>
> Wikipedia - Thou
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
> "Most modern English speakers encounter "thou" only in the works of
Shakespeare, in the works of other medieval and early modern writers, and in the
King James Bible.
>
> So after realizing that in this case it looks like I was correct, I wondered
about a few things:
>
> 1. Rebazar is 500 years old. How old is Old English?
> 2. Regardless of the answer to #1, how and why did Rebazar learn to speak Old
English?
>
> Wikipedia - Old English
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_english
> "Old English (Englisc, Anglisc, Ænglisc) or Anglo-Saxon[1] is an early form of
the English language that was spoken and written by the Anglo-Saxons and their
descendants in parts of what are now England and south-eastern Scotland between
at least the mid-5th century and the mid-12th century."
>
> Wikipedia - 5th Century
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_century
> "The 5th century is the period from 401 to 500 in accordance with the Julian
calendar in Anno Domini/Common Era."
>
> Wikipedia - 12th Century
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century
> "As a means of recording the passage of time, the 12th century is the period
from 1101 to 1200 in accordance with the Julian calendar in the Christian/Common
Era."
>
> Rebazar's birth year
> 1965-500=1465
>
> If Rebazar was 35 years old in 1500, that means he was speaking Old English
about 350 years after it had died out in England and Scotland.
>
> Ok, I admit it it. I have no idea what any of this proves...
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> UPDATE: Maybe I do know what it proves. Maybe Twitchell knew that most
Americans, being of a Christian background, would associate Old English with the
Bible. In other words, with Holy writings or spiritual truth.
>
> I knew that Twitchell stole some verses from the Bible, but I never thought
about this before. The fact that Twitchell may have had Rebazar use the words
thee and ye in order to create a spiritual-like persona for Rebazar.
>
> I'm wondering whether Ford Johnson mentioned this. He must have.
>
> Search results of "Confessions"
>
> "old english" - no occurrences
> "king james" - one occurrence (p 117) but not related to a discussion of
Twitchell's use of thee and ye.
> "thee" - numerous, but Ford actually uses the word 'thee' in some of his HCS
affirmations.
>
> But Ford is allowed to use thee since he was raised in the United States. 
Plus, I think that if Ford was questioned, he would acknowledge that he probably
got the word "thee" from reading the King James version of the Bible. I don't
think Twitchell would acknowledge that Rebazar got the word "thee" from reading
the King James version of the Bible, or from somehow being exposed to Old
English which was spoken from 450 to 1150.
>
> Questions for further study.
> 1. Did all the Eck masters use thee and ye? Or just Rebazar?
> 2. Did these Eck masters speak that way just because they knew Twitchell would
feel comfortable with it?
> 3. Did any of Paul's actual gurus such as Kirpal Singh or Premananda use thee
and ye in their speech?
>