The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
so negative.

In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
in the group (trinity) as well.

Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

Of course some of those characters are composed
of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
reality in some places. IMO.

BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
"Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
Eckankar dictionary either.

I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
for illustrating them.

Etznab


-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 10:37 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp's Vanity - His Wisdom
Notes and EK Brochure Photo

 
You make some good points Etznab.
I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
was an Astral Plane God that was created
by the Romans. Then again, I think that
all of those Gods that religions worship
have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

Prometheus

etznab wrote:

rometheus,

I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
evolved over time according to descriptions
given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
not appear until the last couple years in the
life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
1970-1971?

In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
even given much mention, if at all. I think
the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
more.

Also, I have to consider the appearance in
Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
where so many people (some legendary)
from history were said to be the mahanta
consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
etc.

Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
initiate only.

So what initiation level is the "mahanta
consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
can say (at this point) is the definitions
have apparently evolved over the years. I
believe that when the teachings became
a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
L.E.M. merged to become identified as
the same thing around that time. Since I
suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
legal purposes and one of the things they
ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
person in charge & who is that person?

This is speculation on my part. Paul did
mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
"Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
anta". All of these merged into the head
of the religion and organization of Eck-
ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
very hard for the organization to separate
them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
as that might suggest the physical body,
the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
a limited form of "highest consciousness".
Remember the last part for the definition
for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

"[....] a state of God consciousness which
is beyond the titles given in religions which
designate states of consciousness; the
highest of all states of consciousness."

[See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

It means not so much of anything to me
what appears beside the definition(s) for
"mahanta" today unless I can prove that
information to be true. I think Paul said &
wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
erated in some places. Besides that I do
not see how a highest state of conscious-
ness can be identified with a human and
limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
a physical disability of some kind. Even
suppose a leader died. How can human
beings limited by the physical senses &
human mortality equate with a "highest
state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
Especially one such as called "Eternal
Mahanta" present from the beginning of
time?

Some things (including the highest of all
states of consciousness) became at one
point identified with a single human being,
IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

Etznab

prometheus wrote:
Hello Etznab,
You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
Compared to today?"

I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
who you are and where you are and
when you were there, as well as, one's
state of mind. Some people are experiencing
the "Golden Age" now while others have
experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
involve the consciousness of world society...
only yours and from your perspective.
All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
However, the knowledge of true
history is an aide for us to expand our
current awareness and to help made
it better for those who come after us.

"Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
truth escape us? How might that have happ-
ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
as literally true."

One can look at different stages and timeframes
of any society and see where the past was
better, in some areas, and worse in other
areas.

Censorship has always been a control tactic
used by those in power and how it's used has
varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
Why censorship is condoned is related to having
an "EK membership card." One has to follow
the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
them as it is with any religious belief system.
Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
the questions and doubt that would ensue.
Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
KAL plane) fears and deceit!

Prometheus

etznab wrote:
[....] Even in some of the temples people employed
inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
What they got in return were donations. Of course,
they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

Something from the description of the movie I saw
where it documented various forms of deception that
were employed to make miracles appear to happen
using different forms of technology. This is where it
appears that science was used to promote ideas of
miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
as well. In my opinion:

"Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
were turned to the construction of what were little
more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
icated and impressive ones."

http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&amp;ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

I believe that program appeared on the History
Channel some time back.

Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
history, have told stories that were mythological
and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
used teachings and quotes from the past which
were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
language nobody today completely understands,
etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
investigate, examine and even question "outer"
forms of teachings - from science to religion.

Today it appears ironic how religion and science
are apparently divided, when many have argued
it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
an opinion that religion was described in terms
a child could understand. Also, that religion and
science were not two separate things in the very
beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
described in "scientific" terms then because the
people knew how both were connected.

So, when science today is used to investigate,
examine and, in some cases expose religious
fraud I think it helps to remember how science
was not always the record of ignorance about
how things work that is in existence today.

And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
times may have been much more advanced,
not less advanced (generally), compared with
people living today. Looking at remains of the
past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
lens and portraying them as less civilized,
less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
when monuments were constructed and tech-
nology existed that people today are still try-
ing to fathom.

Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
"Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
truth escape us? How might that have happ-
ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
as literally true.

Etznab

You're right! Klemp has said that, "Jupiter
was the 'Mahanta Consciousness' as it appeared
to the Romans," or "as it appears" to EKists
via the LEM!

BTW- The term you were probably looking for
is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
world Savior, which has been handed down through
the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

This is interesting because this same "Rama"
is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
(pg.172).

Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp  list him as
a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
the new EK Lexicon and has done another
Tweak (reedit).

However, the truth is that Twitchell created
Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
"Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
Marman and many other EKists know this, but
for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

Prometheus




etznab wrote:

The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
so negative.

In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
in the group (trinity) as well.

Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

Of course some of those characters are composed
of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
reality in some places. IMO.

BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
"Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
Eckankar dictionary either.

I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
for illustrating them.

Etznab


prometheus wrote:
You make some good points Etznab.
I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
was an Astral Plane God that was created
by the Romans. Then again, I think that
all of those Gods that religions worship
have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

Prometheus

etznab wrote:

rometheus,

I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
evolved over time according to descriptions
given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
not appear until the last couple years in the
life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
1970-1971?

In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
even given much mention, if at all. I think
the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
more.

Also, I have to consider the appearance in
Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
where so many people (some legendary)
from history were said to be the mahanta
consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
etc.

Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
initiate only.

So what initiation level is the "mahanta
consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
can say (at this point) is the definitions
have apparently evolved over the years. I
believe that when the teachings became
a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
L.E.M. merged to become identified as
the same thing around that time. Since I
suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
legal purposes and one of the things they
ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
person in charge & who is that person?

This is speculation on my part. Paul did
mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
"Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
anta". All of these merged into the head
of the religion and organization of Eck-
ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
very hard for the organization to separate
them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
as that might suggest the physical body,
the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
a limited form of "highest consciousness".
Remember the last part for the definition
for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

"[....] a state of God consciousness which
is beyond the titles given in religions which
designate states of consciousness; the
highest of all states of consciousness."

[See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

It means not so much of anything to me
what appears beside the definition(s) for
"mahanta" today unless I can prove that
information to be true. I think Paul said &
wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
erated in some places. Besides that I do
not see how a highest state of conscious-
ness can be identified with a human and
limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
a physical disability of some kind. Even
suppose a leader died. How can human
beings limited by the physical senses &
human mortality equate with a "highest
state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
Especially one such as called "Eternal
Mahanta" present from the beginning of
time?

Some things (including the highest of all
states of consciousness) became at one
point identified with a single human being,
IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

Etznab

prometheus wrote:
Hello Etznab,
You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
Compared to today?"

I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
who you are and where you are and
when you were there, as well as, one's
state of mind. Some people are experiencing
the "Golden Age" now while others have
experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
involve the consciousness of world society...
only yours and from your perspective.
All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
However, the knowledge of true
history is an aide for us to expand our
current awareness and to help made
it better for those who come after us.

"Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
truth escape us? How might that have happ-
ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
as literally true."

One can look at different stages and timeframes
of any society and see where the past was
better, in some areas, and worse in other
areas.

Censorship has always been a control tactic
used by those in power and how it's used has
varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
Why censorship is condoned is related to having
an "EK membership card." One has to follow
the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
them as it is with any religious belief system.
Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
the questions and doubt that would ensue.
Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
KAL plane) fears and deceit!

Prometheus

etznab wrote:
[....] Even in some of the temples people employed
inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
What they got in return were donations. Of course,
they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

Something from the description of the movie I saw
where it documented various forms of deception that
were employed to make miracles appear to happen
using different forms of technology. This is where it
appears that science was used to promote ideas of
miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
as well. In my opinion:

"Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
were turned to the construction of what were little
more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
icated and impressive ones."

http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

I believe that program appeared on the History
Channel some time back.

Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
history, have told stories that were mythological
and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
used teachings and quotes from the past which
were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
language nobody today completely understands,
etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
investigate, examine and even question "outer"
forms of teachings - from science to religion.

Today it appears ironic how religion and science
are apparently divided, when many have argued
it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
an opinion that religion was described in terms
a child could understand. Also, that religion and
science were not two separate things in the very
beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
described in "scientific" terms then because the
people knew how both were connected.

So, when science today is used to investigate,
examine and, in some cases expose religious
fraud I think it helps to remember how science
was not always the record of ignorance about
how things work that is in existence today.

And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
times may have been much more advanced,
not less advanced (generally), compared with
people living today. Looking at remains of the
past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
lens and portraying them as less civilized,
less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
when monuments were constructed and tech-
nology existed that people today are still try-
ing to fathom.

Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
"Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
truth escape us? How might that have happ-
ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
as literally true.

Etznab

Hello All,
I was wondering if Klemp allows
ESC staffers to have the Holidays
off in order to be with their families.
Or, have they also become unloving
and turned their backs to their families
like Klemp did to his? Many Eclkists
will emulate Klemp and think that
doing so makes them like him...
"God-Realized." It's very superstitious
and is like enlightenment by
proxy or association. He has taught
that lower initiates, especially 4ths,
s/b hanging out with H.I.s. Yes,
  Just go through the motions and
put on a good act (as if) and you too
can imagine yourself to be "higher!"

BTW- How is that working for Klemp?
He's made the disclaimer that he's
Not perfect. But shouldn't, at least,
the words and actions coming from
someone, who sits at the right hand
of the Sugmad, be close to perfect?
Sure! Unfortunately for Eckists HK
falls way short of the mark. But,
just fill-in the blanks and pretend
otherwise. Delusion works for most!

I recall that when Klemp needed
an excuse Not to attend his father's
funeral in Oct. 1971 he quoted what
Jesus supposedly said, "let the dead
bury the dead." Thus, Klemp was
saying that his Mother and other
family members were dead to him.
What makes me wonder is that HK
has repeated these words "(let the
dead bury the dead"), as the Mahanta,
and never corrected his pre-Mahanta
actions. Where's the love? After all,
it wasn't Paul or Darwin (a saviour)
asking HK to attend the 1971 EWWS
irregardless of a death in the family.
HK attended because he was deluded
to think that he might be chosen as
Paul's replacement. Later, he positioned
himself at the ESC under Darwin and
omitted his Mental Breakdown and
Institutional confinement. Klemp
never takes responsibility.

So, does Klemp respect Jesus'
birthday celebration as he does
JC's words that he likes to quote
so often? After all, Twitchell's
birthday (Oct. 22) is celebrated...
kind of. Actually, it's the "Spiritual
New Year" for some reason, and
when a new LEM is chosen. So,
why celebrate the birth of "second
initiate" Jesus? I guess HK might
do it because he wants to fit-in
with the other clerics and religious
leaders in Chanhassen. I wonder
if they know about Jesus' 2nd
EK initiation? Yes, Klemp like to
"blend-in" with Sunday EK Worship
Services and the other Lutheran
like crap he has EKists doing.

Oh well, I just wondered how
many (if any) ESC staffers are
working on Christmas (and
New Years Day too)!

Prometheus

I thought I would respond to HK's recent request for "Eck stories." This story I
am about to tell is a true story. I didn't make anything up. I didn't
exaggerate. I'm telling it exactly as it happened. Before beginning the story I
should tell you that Paul Twitchell never knew the "Potato Pizza Man." Also,
"Potato Pizza Man" is just a stupid nickname that I made up for this person.

Back in late 2008 I was on my way out of Eckankar after being a member for 29
years (1979-2008). I believe it was December. I had been reading Ford Johnson's
book. I was reading the section in the book where he is talking about Paul
Twitchell being a pathological liar. Ford went into a lot of detail, and
actually much more detail that I had the patience to read,  but he at least
covered the entire subject very thoroughly which is a valuable asset for future
generations to have. I was already aware of Twitchell's plagiarism before I read
Ford's book, but the book did reinforce my knowledge, and even added to it with
his many detailed examples.

Ford also discussed the various techniques that Twitchell used during his
fabrication of Eckankar. One of the things that Ford spoke about was how
Twitchell would take two completely unrelated pieces of information and then
piece them together into one thing. While I was reading this section something
kept popping into my mind. But then I would go back to reading, and it would pop
into my mind again. Finally, after about the third time, I stopped reading. I
said to myself "Why does "Joshi" (the guy that I knew at  _________ University)
keep popping into my mind?" Then I thought back to my good friend from India
"Vijay."

I knew "Vijay" very well, and he introduced me to several other guys from India
- one of them was named "Joshi." He was a very likable guy, always telling funny
stories. He had a lot of personality. He had lots of friends because everybody
liked to hear the interesting stories that he told.

My good friend "Vijay" told me the following story. He and several other
Indians, including Joshi took a trip to _______ for an educational symposium.
They were all friends. After they got back, the bunch of them were standing in a
hallway talking to one of their professors. Vijay related the following story
about Joshi. This quote below is Joshi speaking. He is speaking to the professor
and telling him about their trip to the symposium in _______.

Joshi "Yeah, we went to the symposium. We had a great time. We went to this
restaurant and had potato pizza. The restaurant was started by an Italian guy
and an Irish guy. They got together and thought up this great idea to start a
restaurant selling potato pizza."

Vijay then explained to me as he seriously said "All us who went on the trip
just stood there silently." He lowered his voice as he said "The problem is…
there was no potato pizza." He went on to explain. "They truth is, we went to an
Italian place for pizza, and we also went to an Irish pub for some drinks. Joshi
took these two completely unrelated events and put them together into this
"potato pizza story." Vijay was laughing as he told me. but he was laughing
mostly out of embarrassment or perhaps as a result of feeling incredulous. But
he went on to tell me this. "Joshi's mother came over from India to visit them.
She was talking to Vijay and her son Joshi's other Indian friends. She told
them. "When Joshi tells you things, be careful what you believe because he likes
to tell fibs." So the fact that his mother told Vijay and his friends this
statement indicates to me that "Joshi" was this way from a young age.

I never really applied the term "pathological liar" to "Joshi" because I liked
the guy, but that is obviously what he was. The amazing thing is what Vijay told
me, and that is, Joshi has no idea that he is actually lying when he does this.
He's completely sincere. He has no clue that he is making stories up or lying.

So, that's the story. Isn't it interesting how I knew this guy Joshi way back in
1979? That he was a pathological liar, although a very nice one. That 1979 is
the same year that I joined Eckankar. That Eckankar is a religion that Paul
Twitchell stole from Indian religions, most notably Hinduism and Sikhism, or
derivatives of these two. It's way too many coincidences!

So I'm going to send this story into Eckankar. I hope they print it.

A few weeks ago I guess I was almost having pity on Eckankar. Perhaps I was
thinking things like  "Maybe I've been too harsh on Eckankar" and "Maybe
Eckankar isn't as bad as I think they are."

So I decided to do an experiment. I was going to give Eckankar a fair chance. I
decided to go over to YouTube and do a search for some Eckankar videos. Then I
was going to watch the videos and do a completely fair evaluation of the
content. Don't ask me why I was so generous because I don't know why. But I
thought it would be a good idea to just "start from square one." Forget all of
my personal issues with Eckankar and thoroughly dedicate myself to giving them a
fair chance.

The first thing I did was search for some Eckankar music. When I was a member of
Eckankar I heard some "Eck songs" that I liked, and I was curious to see whether
I could find a few of them on YouTube. For one thing, I was curious to see what
my reaction would be when I listened to the songs. Would I cry? Would I feel
nostalgic? So I did the search. This is my results:

First search string --> Nothing
Second search string --> Nothing
Third search string --> Nothing
Fourth search string --> Nothing

I honestly don't remember what I used to search, but I am pretty good at
searching for things on the Internet.

But my search results did prove one thing: There is no Eck music on YouTube!
Well, at first I was kinda stumped. Why? Then it came to me... the sound of "ka
ching" resonated in my head. Yes, it was all about money. It had to be! Eckankar
doesn't give anything away - you have to pay for it. Which does prove one thing.
That Spirit DOES give freely, except when it comes through Eckankar.

I thought I would add some additional comments to my original post.

First Point.
The fact is, many individuals on YouTube use a copyrighted music file a backing
track for a video, they then add some beautiful photos of their own such as the
ocean, mountains, etc. Some of these videos are quite amazing and are a
beautiful form of self-expression. Some of these videos get pulled from YouTube
by the copy write owners, but many do not.

Likewise, a member of Eckankar could do the same thing. They could take an Eck
song from one of the official CDs that Eckankar sells and make it into a
beautiful video, then post it on YouTube. But I didn't find a single instance of
this on YouTube. There are two reasons for this:

1. Eckankar aggressively protects all of it's copy-written material because it
wants only the "official line" from Eckankar headquarters to be present on
YouTube.
2. Eckankar aggressively protects all of it's copyrighted material because it
doesn't want to lose any income as a result of people giving it away for free.

Second Point.
Ever hear an Eckist tell a personal story on YouTube? I looked, and I didn't
find a single instance. I've discussed this previously on other posts on the
Internet, but Eckists are afraid to give their own personal stories and
experiences regarding Eckankar. Currently, there are two videos on YouTube which
masquerade as a personal story told by an Eckist, but it is pretty easy to see
that these two videos are just slick "Madison Avenue" videos produced at
Eckankar headquarters:

Reincarnation Past Life Dream Interpretation via Eckankar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nOvyUDObQI

Out-of-body Experience with my deceased brother OBE Eckankar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK9Teg3vly8&feature=related

Third Point.
So what kind of Eckankar videos are there on YouTube? It's mostly VERY SHORT
videos with the current leader of Eckankar, Harold Klemp. Almost all of them are
less than five minutes long. They give you a very short glimpse of Eckankar,
just enough to get you "sucked in" but not enough to really give you a decent
amount of information so that you can actually do a worthwhile evaluation of
Eckankar. Eckankar gives so little information out to the public on YouTube that
any reasonable person would get the impression that Eckankar has a lot to hide.

Fourth Point
Eckankar has 5 minute videos of Klemp's talks on YouTube. I'm not certain, but I
believe his talks typically run about 30 minutes. Contrast that with the
following website dedicated to Paul Twitchell's teacher Kirpal Singh:

Recorded talks of Kirpal Singh (Click on link to listen, right-click to
download.)
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/audio.htm

Audio books of Kirpal Singh (Click on link to listen, right-click to download.)
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/audiobook.htm

In case anyone wonders "Do they really allow free download?" Here is a direct
quote from the audio book page:

"The 'books on CD'("audio books") in our collection have converted to MP3 files
and can be downloaded here."

So there is no doubt. It is all free!

It has been awhile since I checked out Eckanakr's website, but I don't recall
seeing any free downloads of talks or audio books. Ka ching, ka ching!

So it's pretty clear, when it comes to spiritual knowledge:

Paul Twitchell's followers (Eckankar): Copyright, protect, and restrict. Sell
everything, no exceptions.
Kirpal Singh's followers (Ruhani Satsang): Give away freely.

I get sick of hearing members of Eckankar saying "But Eckankar doesn't cost that
much." My reply to them is "Well it seems to me that you could be doing a whole
lot better."

Fifth Point
Back when I was a "contented" member of Eckankar I always wondered "Why doesn't
Eckankar convert all of Paul Twitchell's tapes to MP3 format, put them all on a
CD and sell the CD for a reasonable price?" I realize now that there are two
reasons for this: (1) Eckankar could no longer sell you one cassette tape for
$8, and (2) Eckanakar doesn't want to preserve Paul's original tapes because
there were too many times that he stuck his foot in his mouth or he just didn't
agree with Klemp's modern-day "Christian-based approach" to selling Eckankar.
And in case you are wondering, yes, I was very naive back in those days.


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago I guess I was almost having pity on Eckankar. Perhaps I was
thinking things like  "Maybe I've been too harsh on Eckankar" and "Maybe
Eckankar isn't as bad as I think they are."
>
> So I decided to do an experiment. I was going to give Eckankar a fair chance.
I decided to go over to YouTube and do a search for some Eckankar videos. Then I
was going to watch the videos and do a completely fair evaluation of the
content. Don't ask me why I was so generous because I don't know why. But I
thought it would be a good idea to just "start from square one." Forget all of
my personal issues with Eckankar and thoroughly dedicate myself to giving them a
fair chance.
>
> The first thing I did was search for some Eckankar music. When I was a member
of Eckankar I heard some "Eck songs" that I liked, and I was curious to see
whether I could find a few of them on YouTube. For one thing, I was curious to
see what my reaction would be when I listened to the songs. Would I cry? Would I
feel nostalgic? So I did the search. This is my results:
>
> First search string --> Nothing
> Second search string --> Nothing
> Third search string --> Nothing
> Fourth search string --> Nothing
>
> I honestly don't remember what I used to search, but I am pretty good at
searching for things on the Internet.
>
> But my search results did prove one thing: There is no Eck music on YouTube!
Well, at first I was kinda stumped. Why? Then it came to me... the sound of "ka
ching" resonated in my head. Yes, it was all about money. It had to be! Eckankar
doesn't give anything away - you have to pay for it. Which does prove one thing.
That Spirit DOES give freely, except when it comes through Eckankar.
>

In Part 1 Klemp suggests that "coffee"
is bad for ECKists' health due to the
caffeine. However he never mentions
the caffeine in tea. Also, on the news
today, I heard that a study was done
that showed that Coffee and Tea may
ward off Diabetes. Plus, one can always
drink decaf!

In the next story below Klemp is complaining
about his mother making him drink his
milk which had cream in it. Thus when
her back was turned he would pour it
back into the pitcher and mislead her
into thinking he drank it. Today, he stills
thinks that this was not a lie and that
"stretching the truth" was/is okay. Also,
milk in those days, and on the farm,
did not have Vitamin-D added, thus,
HK came down with rickets, although,
no one else in his family did.

BTW-Another reason why many people
today don't have a Vitamin-D deficiency
is due to Starbucks since they put a lot
of Vitamin-D enriched milk into their
products. Thus, another reason why coffee
can be good for the health. Also, in the
Middle East coffee is drank in order to
protect oneself from heat stroke. Therefore,
once again Klemp misses the mark and
has taken a narrow-minded and one
dimensional approach to the topic of "health."

Prometheus


prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> The following is a recollection about
> Klemp's youth on the farm, and the
> conclusion of his "health hints". However,
> there is some Golden-Tongued Wisdom
> found here. One of these is when he
> says to his mother, "My glass is empty!"
> Harry admits that he was "stretching
> the truth" which he claims was/is okay.
> Thus, his glass was not just "half-empty"
> it was/is all "empty." Klemp, today, seems
> to think that it was just fine learning to
> trick his Mother by lying (stretching the
> truth), and to demonstrate deviant behaviour
> (pouring the milk back into the pitcher).
> Boys will be boys, they say.
>
> HK: "When I was a boy, there was nowhere
> near the amount of nutritional information
> so readily available today. My older brother,
> Duane, suffered a greatly swollen ear when
> he was eight or nine. He was a spectacle
> when he arrived at school. Our family doctor
> gave him a shot of penicillin, and his ear soon
> shrank to normal size.
>
> In looking back, I suspect that Duane had
> a sensitivity to dairy products, for he often
> had earaches. BUT ours was a dairy farm;
> milk and cheese were a mainstay at mealtimes."
>
> ME: Well, that's possible. However, the problem
> Duane had could be from other causes too.
> Klemp is speculating on this, but food allergies
> are often overlooked even today. Duane did,
> years later, die of Cancer. I wonder why the
> Mahanta has to "suspect" this cause of Duane's
> problem rather than "know" it to be true when
> he, supposedly, has the ability to use the ECK-Vidya.
>
> HK: "For my part, I would gag at the sight
> of a single speck of cream on top of my
> glass of milk. BUT Mother insisted I sit at
> the breakfast table until the milk was gone.
> I really tried to drink it, BUT it just refused
> to go down. she was so insistent about it
> because I'd had rickets, a bone-deforming
> disease, a few years earlier, from a vitamin-
> D deficiency. Our farm milk had no added
> vitamin D, as did store bought milk. BUT
> she did not know that.
>
> `Drink your milk,' she scolded, "then you
> can go outside to play!'
>
> ME: What Klemp fails to see is that his
> mother was telling him to "go outside to
> play" and get his Vitamin-D from the sun!
>
> HK: "Mother had a lot to do, so she could
> not keep an eye on me every second.
> When she turned her back to wash dishes,
> I dumped my milk back into the pitcher
> and announced, `My glass is empty!' And
> that was the solemn truth. Our parents
> taught us not to lie, BUT stretching the
> truth was another matter."
>
> ME: Stretching the truth was another matter
> for Twitchell too! Let's face it, Klemp's behaviour
> was devious! I never would have done that
> and never stretched the truth until I became
> a teenager. I, too, had a problem with specks
> of cream in my glasses of milk as well. We
> had a milkman deliver ours from their dairy.
> I would take a spoon and gather the specks
> of cream up in it and then wipe the cream off
> on a napkin.
>
> HK: "However, I loved cheese. So I lifted
> a stack of slices from the cheese plate
> and put them on my dinner plate. Then
> I would return for a second and a third
> helping, to the utter amazement of my
> parents. The younger and the more it
> squeaked, the better. I certainly had no
> food sensitivity to cheese then, although
> I do now."
>
> ME: It's no wonder that Klemp has a
> food allergy to cheese today since he
> ate so much as a youth. Maybe HK did,
> after all, have an slight allergy to cheese
> way back then since his brother had an
> allergy to milk. Of course, we've all heard
> this "cheesy" story before. Klemp has
> told it often. I remember a Seminar, years
> ago, where he told us about this. Isn't
> this a waste of paper, time, and members'
> money?
>
> HK: "Maybe you will find HINTS in this
> letter so you may achieve better health
> for you and your family. I trust you will.
>
> Again, good health is an aid to spiritual
> unfoldment." [end]
>
> ME: I thought that "INITIATIONS" were
> `an aid to spiritual unfoldment.' Where
> are these? Klemp is side-stepping the
> real issue and gives nothing! We've seen
> or experienced this advice (hints) before.
>
> Prometheus
>

I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I plan on
posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I was going to use
my first name.

Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to motivate me to go
back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook entitled something like
"Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post it on the Internet as a free
PDF.

By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll use my real name
in the records of my Diary.


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message board. But since
it did get posted, I maight as well post a more detailed version of the email
addresses. The first one (sent on the 9th) was the one that threatened me with
sexual violence.
>  
>
>
> --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@...>
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted emails, one was
threatening
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Prometheus,
>  
> I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They were mailed
on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my posts on ESA. I read
them for the first time around Dec 24.
>  
> What, if anything, should I do about it?
>  
> Alan
>  
>  
>

Hi, Everyone!

As we are starting a new year and since it's symbolic of out with
the old and a time of new beginnings- a former member of ekult
has suggested a topic for ESA. Maybe we can share and/or make
a list of the worst mistakes or decisions we made while under the
influence of the cult teachings and the so called protection of the
self proclaimed godman, Klump. It might be interesting and a good
cautionary tale for others. I'm sure many of us  made some very bad
decisions during time in ekult and might still have problems because
of them. I'll bet there are others out there, too.

I'll start first my saying that it still gnaws me about the time and
money I wasted. But worse than that I am astounded that I fell for it
and believed for awhile that Klemp was someone special and superior
to all others. This delusional thinking just floors me as logic has
always been a more sensible route for me until I hooked up with
eckankar. It is sort of like a bad dream but yet I know I did it . . . and
what it taught me is that any one of us could behave stupidly or be
taken in by delusion. I am so glad that I got out before I was really
brainwashed. I am glad to be back in the real world, enjoying my
family and friends and using my time as I choose within the bounds
of normal responsibilities.

I feel badly that some of the eckists I met and grew to like are still
in that bubble world. I try to think that is it okay because it is their
  choice but on another level, I feel like they are sick and trapped . . .
they are  giving up so much, like a healthy and happy life. It makes me
feel sad so that affects me when I think about it.

I wish all of you a very Happy New Year and time for constructive
reflections as we enter the new decade!!

Best wishes,

Mish

Jonathan, I am really sorry you got those disturbing emails.
There are some really sick people out there . . . you can mark
them as spam and they will not then be in your regular email
box . . . and you can ignore them that way.  I think many of us
have had experiences with the nutters!!

I will look forward to reading your diary/eBook!

Best wishes,

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I plan on
posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I was going to use
my first name.
>
> Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to motivate me to
go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook entitled something like
"Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post it on the Internet as a free
PDF.
>
> By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll use my real
name in the records of my Diary.
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> >
> > I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message board. But
since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more detailed version of the
email addresses. The first one (sent on the 9th) was the one that threatened me
with sexual violence.
> >  
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@>
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted emails, one
was threatening
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >  
> > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They were
mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my posts on ESA. I
read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> >  
> > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> >  
> > Alan
> >  
> >  
> >
>

Oh, I enjoyed this story . .  . I hope eckankar will print it, but of course,
I'm sure Klemp would make a sow's ear out of your silk purse!! : )

But seriously what would they do with it?? I guess put it in file 13 .  . .

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> I thought I would respond to HK's recent request for "Eck stories." This story
I am about to tell is a true story. I didn't make anything up. I didn't
exaggerate. I'm telling it exactly as it happened. Before beginning the story I
should tell you that Paul Twitchell never knew the "Potato Pizza Man." Also,
"Potato Pizza Man" is just a stupid nickname that I made up for this person.
>
> Back in late 2008 I was on my way out of Eckankar after being a member for 29
years (1979-2008). I believe it was December. I had been reading Ford Johnson's
book. I was reading the section in the book where he is talking about Paul
Twitchell being a pathological liar. Ford went into a lot of detail, and
actually much more detail that I had the patience to read,  but he at least
covered the entire subject very thoroughly which is a valuable asset for future
generations to have. I was already aware of Twitchell's plagiarism before I read
Ford's book, but the book did reinforce my knowledge, and even added to it with
his many detailed examples.
>
> Ford also discussed the various techniques that Twitchell used during his
fabrication of Eckankar. One of the things that Ford spoke about was how
Twitchell would take two completely unrelated pieces of information and then
piece them together into one thing. While I was reading this section something
kept popping into my mind. But then I would go back to reading, and it would pop
into my mind again. Finally, after about the third time, I stopped reading. I
said to myself "Why does "Joshi" (the guy that I knew at  _________ University)
keep popping into my mind?" Then I thought back to my good friend from India
"Vijay."
>
> I knew "Vijay" very well, and he introduced me to several other guys from
India - one of them was named "Joshi." He was a very likable guy, always telling
funny stories. He had a lot of personality. He had lots of friends because
everybody liked to hear the interesting stories that he told.
>
> My good friend "Vijay" told me the following story. He and several other
Indians, including Joshi took a trip to _______ for an educational symposium.
They were all friends. After they got back, the bunch of them were standing in a
hallway talking to one of their professors. Vijay related the following story
about Joshi. This quote below is Joshi speaking. He is speaking to the professor
and telling him about their trip to the symposium in _______.
>
> Joshi "Yeah, we went to the symposium. We had a great time. We went to this
restaurant and had potato pizza. The restaurant was started by an Italian guy
and an Irish guy. They got together and thought up this great idea to start a
restaurant selling potato pizza."
>
> Vijay then explained to me as he seriously said "All us who went on the trip
just stood there silently." He lowered his voice as he said "The problem is…
there was no potato pizza." He went on to explain. "They truth is, we went to an
Italian place for pizza, and we also went to an Irish pub for some drinks. Joshi
took these two completely unrelated events and put them together into this
"potato pizza story." Vijay was laughing as he told me. but he was laughing
mostly out of embarrassment or perhaps as a result of feeling incredulous. But
he went on to tell me this. "Joshi's mother came over from India to visit them.
She was talking to Vijay and her son Joshi's other Indian friends. She told
them. "When Joshi tells you things, be careful what you believe because he likes
to tell fibs." So the fact that his mother told Vijay and his friends this
statement indicates to me that "Joshi" was this way from a young age.
>
> I never really applied the term "pathological liar" to "Joshi" because I liked
the guy, but that is obviously what he was. The amazing thing is what Vijay told
me, and that is, Joshi has no idea that he is actually lying when he does this.
He's completely sincere. He has no clue that he is making stories up or lying.
>
> So, that's the story. Isn't it interesting how I knew this guy Joshi way back
in 1979? That he was a pathological liar, although a very nice one. That 1979 is
the same year that I joined Eckankar. That Eckankar is a religion that Paul
Twitchell stole from Indian religions, most notably Hinduism and Sikhism, or
derivatives of these two. It's way too many coincidences!
>
> So I'm going to send this story into Eckankar. I hope they print it.
>

Hello Jonathan,
Yes, there is a young perverted guy that has
been sending nasty/sexual/threatening emails
using various names and email accounts. Yahoo
can't seem to track his server down except it's
around Sunnydale. It sounds like something a
very unbalanced (off meds probably) and spiritually
immature Soul would do... a prodigy of Mark Alex...
or Marman or ATOM or maybe the Doers? Really,
he sounds Bi-Polar and Deviant.

I simply Red Flag them and put them in my spam
folder. I don't open them because they all come
from the same person and all seem to support
Twitchell while attacking me and Klemp. Strange
isn't it? Actually, I haven't looked at any of my
emails for about two months. I've been doing
other things, but will get back to ESA with some
12/2009 Mystic World info soon. Actually, this
nut case is a member of ESA and I know who he
is but haven't booted him.... what's the point.
Just don't open the emails or take it personally...
he's a sicko! Pity and ignore him if anything!
"There but by the Grace of God go I."

Prometheus

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
>  
> I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They were mailed
on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my posts on ESA. I read
them for the first time around Dec 24.
>  
> What, if anything, should I do about it?
>  
> Alan
>  
>  
>

Your observation is very good and most likely accurate!! It is about
money . . . eckankar taking your money!! So dishonest of them as
the top leaders live a plush life while the chelas sacrifice more and
more!


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> A few weeks ago I guess I was almost having pity on Eckankar. Perhaps I was
thinking things like  "Maybe I've been too harsh on Eckankar" and "Maybe
Eckankar isn't as bad as I think they are."
>
> So I decided to do an experiment. I was going to give Eckankar a fair chance.
I decided to go over to YouTube and do a search for some Eckankar videos. Then I
was going to watch the videos and do a completely fair evaluation of the
content. Don't ask me why I was so generous because I don't know why. But I
thought it would be a good idea to just "start from square one." Forget all of
my personal issues with Eckankar and thoroughly dedicate myself to giving them a
fair chance.
>
> The first thing I did was search for some Eckankar music. When I was a member
of Eckankar I heard some "Eck songs" that I liked, and I was curious to see
whether I could find a few of them on YouTube. For one thing, I was curious to
see what my reaction would be when I listened to the songs. Would I cry? Would I
feel nostalgic? So I did the search. This is my results:
>
> First search string --> Nothing
> Second search string --> Nothing
> Third search string --> Nothing
> Fourth search string --> Nothing
>
> I honestly don't remember what I used to search, but I am pretty good at
searching for things on the Internet.
>
> But my search results did prove one thing: There is no Eck music on YouTube!
Well, at first I was kinda stumped. Why? Then it came to me... the sound of "ka
ching" resonated in my head. Yes, it was all about money. It had to be! Eckankar
doesn't give anything away - you have to pay for it. Which does prove one thing.
That Spirit DOES give freely, except when it comes through Eckankar.
>

Prometheus,
Thnaks for you reply and advice.

As I explained in another post I didn't intend for my messages about this to be
posted on the message board; I thought I was sending an email directly fto you.
That's Yahoo's kooky interface.

I thought perhaps the best thing was to ignore the person. They are not going to
stop me from posting. I think it is possible that emails of this type could stop
some people from speaking out about Eckankar - that is a disturbing thought.

Also, the percentage of members of Eckankar who would do something like this is
almost zero. So I don't want these emails to be seen as a bad reflection on
Eckankar. In my opinion this person is very much an isolated case. I am more
than happy to criticise Eckankar when they deserve it, but I can't justify it in
this instance.

Jonathan

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Jonathan,
> Yes, there is a young perverted guy that has
> been sending nasty/sexual/threatening emails
> using various names and email accounts. Yahoo
> can't seem to track his server down except it's
> around Sunnydale. It sounds like something a
> very unbalanced (off meds probably) and spiritually
> immature Soul would do... a prodigy of Mark Alex...
> or Marman or ATOM or maybe the Doers? Really,
> he sounds Bi-Polar and Deviant.
>
> I simply Red Flag them and put them in my spam
> folder. I don't open them because they all come
> from the same person and all seem to support
> Twitchell while attacking me and Klemp. Strange
> isn't it? Actually, I haven't looked at any of my
> emails for about two months. I've been doing
> other things, but will get back to ESA with some
> 12/2009 Mystic World info soon. Actually, this
> nut case is a member of ESA and I know who he
> is but haven't booted him.... what's the point.
> Just don't open the emails or take it personally...
> he's a sicko! Pity and ignore him if anything!
> "There but by the Grace of God go I."
>
> Prometheus
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >  
> > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They were
mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my posts on ESA. I
read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> >  
> > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> >  
> > Alan
> >  
> >  
> >
>

Mish,

Thanks for your reply and advice. I'm going to ignore the person/emails and move
on.

I'll try to get something from my Diary posted within a week. It's a lot of work
because I have to censor out people's last names, etc. in some attempt to
protect their privacy. It should be interesting.

Jonathan

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...>
wrote:
>
> Jonathan, I am really sorry you got those disturbing emails.
> There are some really sick people out there . . . you can mark
> them as spam and they will not then be in your regular email
> box . . . and you can ignore them that way.  I think many of us
> have had experiences with the nutters!!
>
> I will look forward to reading your diary/eBook!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mish
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> >
> > I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I plan on
posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I was going to use
my first name.
> >
> > Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to motivate me
to go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook entitled something
like "Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post it on the Internet as a
free PDF.
> >
> > By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll use my real
name in the records of my Diary.
> >
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message board. But
since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more detailed version of the
email addresses. The first one (sent on the 9th) was the one that threatened me
with sexual violence.
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@>
> > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted emails, one
was threatening
> > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus,
> > >  
> > > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They were
mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my posts on ESA. I
read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> > >  
> > > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> > >  
> > > Alan
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> >
>

Actually, there are those in Eckankar that
engage in dirty tricks and negative acts
in order to "protect" their Mahanta from
being insulted. It's really an ego thing.
The percentage is low, but it's a matter
of record that ESA site members have
experienced, and is condoned by Klemp!
ESC staffers and Joan monitor these anti-
EK sites.

If you've ever read some of the chela and
H.I. postings on HU-Chat or Chela-Chat and
on A.R.E. you'd see that there is an official
Eckankar connection or else there would be
reprisals coming from the ESC (Klemp) to
prevent and eliminate thses negative behaviours
from spreading. However, that's not the case
and, therefore, the nut cases (as above, so
below) feel that Klemp is turning a Blind-Eye
to it all. Thus, HK empowers them by giving
his (silent) approval to it all. It could very well
be that this sicko is only pretending (as if) to
dislike Klemp in order to throw us and others
off his tracks. He's probably an ECK Youth,
or seems he is because he appears spiritually
immature. His spiritual growth, more than
likely, has become stunted via LEM/Mahanta
Co-Dependency. No Self-Mastery or Spiritual
Liberation/Freedom in THIS lifetime for him
or any other ECKist!

Prometheus

jonathanjohns wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
> Thnaks for you reply and advice.
>
> As I explained in another post I didn't intend for my messages about this to
be posted on the message board; I thought I was sending an email directly fto
you. That's Yahoo's kooky interface.
>
> I thought perhaps the best thing was to ignore the person. They are not going
to stop me from posting. I think it is possible that emails of this type could
stop some people from speaking out about Eckankar - that is a disturbing
thought.
>
> Also, the percentage of members of Eckankar who would do something like this
is almost zero. So I don't want these emails to be seen as a bad reflection on
Eckankar. In my opinion this person is very much an isolated case. I am more
than happy to criticise Eckankar when they deserve it, but I can't justify it in
this instance.
>
> Jonathan
>
<prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Jonathan,
> > Yes, there is a young perverted guy that has
> > been sending nasty/sexual/threatening emails
> > using various names and email accounts. Yahoo
> > can't seem to track his server down except it's
> > around Sunnydale. It sounds like something a
> > very unbalanced (off meds probably) and spiritually
> > immature Soul would do... a prodigy of Mark Alex...
> > or Marman or ATOM or maybe the Doers? Really,
> > he sounds Bi-Polar and Deviant.
> >
> > I simply Red Flag them and put them in my spam
> > folder. I don't open them because they all come
> > from the same person and all seem to support
> > Twitchell while attacking me and Klemp. Strange
> > isn't it? Actually, I haven't looked at any of my
> > emails for about two months. I've been doing
> > other things, but will get back to ESA with some
> > 12/2009 Mystic World info soon. Actually, this
> > nut case is a member of ESA and I know who he
> > is but haven't booted him.... what's the point.
> > Just don't open the emails or take it personally...
> > he's a sicko! Pity and ignore him if anything!
> > "There but by the Grace of God go I."
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Prometheus,
> > >  
> > > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They were
mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my posts on ESA. I
read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> > >  
> > > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> > >  
> > > Alan
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> >
>

He everybody. I have at least one more "Eck story" although it is a short one.
This took place sometime during my last month in Eckankar in December of 2008
after 29 years in Eckankar. This was when I had already been asking a lot of
"difficult" questions at the local Eck center. I had already learned a lot of
truth about Eckankar such as Paul Twitchell's extensive plagiarism. I'm pretty
sure it was right before the scheduled HU chant, not at the "worship service." I
was sitting there talking to a long term (30+ years) member of Eckankar.  I was
telling this man something like "Sure, some of the detractors of Eckankar have
found a few negative things about Eckankar, but the basic teachings are still
good." (I.e., I was trying to convince myself to stay in Eckankar.) He looked
straight at me and said with a big smile "I can't think of a single negative
thing about Eckankar."

I just sat there not saying anything, just looking over toward him. I had to
evaluate this because I was stunned. I was thinking to myself "Is he really
serious?" He's been in Eckankar for a least 30 years and he can't think of a
single negative thing? Nothing!!!???" He didn't say anything further so I just
looked away somewhere else because I obviously wasn't going to pursue this
conversation with him. I know when to not waste my time, plus I really wasn't in
the mood to say anything that would annoy him. Unfortunately, all the facts that
I could have told would have done just that.

This story points out one thing. You really can't appreciate how brainwashed
some members of Eckankar are until you are sitting right in front of them and
talking to them.

I would like to give an example from my own childhood when I was being raised as
a Christian. Even when I was a kid being forced to go to Sunday School at the
local Protestant church, I had my doubts about the stories about Adam and Eve,
and Noah's Ark. And I was just a kid!!! But I guess this strange phenomenon of
brainwashed religious followers might not have anything to do with age. Even if
you are an adult you can convince yourself to believe anything.

And I would suggest that anyone who belongs to any religion that you ask this
same question of yourself. Can you think of even one negative thing about your
religion? If you can't, then you should start to wonder whether you are a
religious fanatic.

I'm sure that this Eckist I was speaking to just sees himself has a faithful
follower of Eckankar. Sorry Sir, I think you're brainwashed.

I wish Yahoo would allow a longer subject line. The full title is:

"I can't think of a single negative thing about Eckankar" (Hint: I didn't say
this)

I guess I can add one more comment. It was because of kooky, brain-dead people
like this that I really decided that I had to leave Eckankar. I honestly didn't
know that there were some members who were this wacky. I always had a few doubts
about Eckankar from almost the very beginning. I realize that many people who
joined believed everything from the start. All of us are different. But after 30
years as a member you should be able to think of at least one negative thing.
Maybe the parking lot at the Eck center is too small. Anything!!!

Jonathan

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> He everybody. I have at least one more "Eck story" although it is a short one.
This took place sometime during my last month in Eckankar in December of 2008
after 29 years in Eckankar. This was when I had already been asking a lot of
"difficult" questions at the local Eck center. I had already learned a lot of
truth about Eckankar such as Paul Twitchell's extensive plagiarism. I'm pretty
sure it was right before the scheduled HU chant, not at the "worship service." I
was sitting there talking to a long term (30+ years) member of Eckankar.  I was
telling this man something like "Sure, some of the detractors of Eckankar have
found a few negative things about Eckankar, but the basic teachings are still
good." (I.e., I was trying to convince myself to stay in Eckankar.) He looked
straight at me and said with a big smile "I can't think of a single negative
thing about Eckankar."
>
> I just sat there not saying anything, just looking over toward him. I had to
evaluate this because I was stunned. I was thinking to myself "Is he really
serious?" He's been in Eckankar for a least 30 years and he can't think of a
single negative thing? Nothing!!!???" He didn't say anything further so I just
looked away somewhere else because I obviously wasn't going to pursue this
conversation with him. I know when to not waste my time, plus I really wasn't in
the mood to say anything that would annoy him. Unfortunately, all the facts that
I could have told would have done just that.
>
> This story points out one thing. You really can't appreciate how brainwashed
some members of Eckankar are until you are sitting right in front of them and
talking to them.
>
> I would like to give an example from my own childhood when I was being raised
as a Christian. Even when I was a kid being forced to go to Sunday School at the
local Protestant church, I had my doubts about the stories about Adam and Eve,
and Noah's Ark. And I was just a kid!!! But I guess this strange phenomenon of
brainwashed religious followers might not have anything to do with age. Even if
you are an adult you can convince yourself to believe anything.
>
> And I would suggest that anyone who belongs to any religion that you ask this
same question of yourself. Can you think of even one negative thing about your
religion? If you can't, then you should start to wonder whether you are a
religious fanatic.
>
> I'm sure that this Eckist I was speaking to just sees himself has a faithful
follower of Eckankar. Sorry Sir, I think you're brainwashed.
>

I couldn't view the attachment file. Something about
an error on the Yahoo server.

Still catching up on e-mails (have more to read) but,
if someone hasn't already, could I get a text version
of the e-mail either publicly or privately?

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:25 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I received two unwanted
emails, one was threatening

 
I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I plan
on posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I was
going to use my first name.

Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to motivate
me to go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook entitled
something like "Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post it on
the Internet as a free PDF.

By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll use my
real name in the records of my Diary.

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message
board. But since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more
detailed version of the email addresses. The first one (sent on the
9th) was the one that threatened me with sexual violence.
>  
>
>
> --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@...>
wrote:
>
>
> From: Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@...>
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted
emails, one was threatening
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Prometheus,
>  
> I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They
were mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my
posts on ESA. I read them for the first time around Dec 24.
>  
> What, if anything, should I do about it?
>  
> Alan
>  
>  
>

One of the reasons I use a pseudo is to steer clear
of the nutters who might choose to attack me or my
family.

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: mishmisha9 <mishmisha9@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 8:56 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I received two unwanted
emails, one was threatening

 
Jonathan, I am really sorry you got those disturbing emails.
There are some really sick people out there . . . you can mark
them as spam and they will not then be in your regular email
box . . . and you can ignore them that way.  I think many of us
have had experiences with the nutters!!

I will look forward to reading your diary/eBook!

Best wishes,

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I
plan on posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I
was going to use my first name.
>
> Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to
motivate me to go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook
entitled something like "Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll
post it on the Internet as a free PDF.
>
> By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll
use my real name in the records of my Diary.
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
<jonathanjohns96@> wrote:
> >
> > I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message
board. But since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more
detailed version of the email addresses. The first one (sent on the
9th) was the one that threatened me with sexual violence.
> >  
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jonathan Johns <jonathanjohns96@>
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted
emails, one was threatening
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >  
> > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening.
They were mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on
my posts on ESA. I read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> >  
> > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> >  
> > Alan
> >  
> >  
> >
>

Etznab,

I've thought it over and I have decided that I am not really comfortable
forwarding pornographic spam to anyone, no matter the format or whatever. So I
hope you understand.

I'm sure this type of spam occurs all the time on the Internet and on Yahoo's
message boards, and Yahoo would need an army of investigators to research it
all. So I am going to just move forward.

Jonathan

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> I couldn't view the attachment file. Something about
> an error on the Yahoo server.
>
> Still catching up on e-mails (have more to read) but,
> if someone hasn't already, could I get a text version
> of the e-mail either publicly or privately?
>
> Etznab
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:25 pm
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I received two unwanted
> emails, one was threatening
>
>  
> I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I plan
> on posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I was
> going to use my first name.
>
> Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to motivate
> me to go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook entitled
> something like "Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post it on
> the Internet as a free PDF.
>
> By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll use my
> real name in the records of my Diary.
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
> jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
> >
> > I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message
> board. But since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more
> detailed version of the email addresses. The first one (sent on the
> 9th) was the one that threatened me with sexual violence.
> >  
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns jonathanjohns96@
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jonathan Johns jonathanjohns96@
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted
> emails, one was threatening
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >  
> > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They
> were mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my
> posts on ESA. I read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> >  
> > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> >  
> > Alan
> >  
> >  
> >
>

I understand.

I wasn't able to view the attached picture file, or whatever was
attached to your initial posts on the subject.

It doesn't matter. Probably best to just delete it and mark the sender
as spam. I agree.

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2010 7:26 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I received two unwanted
emails, one was threatening

 
Etznab,

I've thought it over and I have decided that I am not really
comfortable forwarding pornographic spam to anyone, no matter the
format or whatever. So I hope you understand.

I'm sure this type of spam occurs all the time on the Internet and on
Yahoo's message boards, and Yahoo would need an army of investigators
to research it all. So I am going to just move forward.

Jonathan

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> I couldn't view the attachment file. Something about
> an error on the Yahoo server.
>
> Still catching up on e-mails (have more to read) but,
> if someone hasn't already, could I get a text version
> of the e-mail either publicly or privately?
>
> Etznab
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:25 pm
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I received two unwanted
> emails, one was threatening
>
>  
> I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I
plan
> on posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I
was
> going to use my first name.
>
> Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to
motivate
> me to go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook
entitled
> something like "Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post
it on
> the Internet as a free PDF.
>
> By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll
use my
> real name in the records of my Diary.
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
> jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
> >
> > I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message
> board. But since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more
> detailed version of the email addresses. The first one (sent on
the
> 9th) was the one that threatened me with sexual violence.
> >  
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns jonathanjohns96@
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Jonathan Johns jonathanjohns96@
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted
> emails, one was threatening
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prometheus,
> >  
> > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening.
They
> were mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on
my
> posts on ESA. I read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> >  
> > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> >  
> > Alan
> >  
> >  
> >
>

Hi Jonathan,

I received one or two too - of the same kind it seems. I just deleted and forgot
them.

Take care,
Ingrid

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjohns96"
<jonathanjohns96@...> wrote:
>
> Etznab,
>
> I've thought it over and I have decided that I am not really comfortable
forwarding pornographic spam to anyone, no matter the format or whatever. So I
hope you understand.
>
> I'm sure this type of spam occurs all the time on the Internet and on Yahoo's
message boards, and Yahoo would need an army of investigators to research it
all. So I am going to just move forward.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
> >
> > I couldn't view the attachment file. Something about
> > an error on the Yahoo server.
> >
> > Still catching up on e-mails (have more to read) but,
> > if someone hasn't already, could I get a text version
> > of the e-mail either publicly or privately?
> >
> > Etznab
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jonathanjohns96 <jonathanjohns96@>
> > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 7:25 pm
> > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I received two unwanted
> > emails, one was threatening
> >
> >  
> > I just noticed that I used my real first name. That's OK because I plan
> > on posting my Diary of my inner experiences on the Internet and I was
> > going to use my first name.
> >
> > Also, I am going to use this unwanted and threatening email to motivate
> > me to go back through my posts on ESA and write a short ebook entitled
> > something like "Why I left Eckankar: A personal story." I'll post it on
> > the Internet as a free PDF.
> >
> > By the way people can continbue to address me as Jonathan. I'll use my
> > real name in the records of my Diary.
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Johns
> > jonathanjohns96@ wrote:
> > >
> > > I had no idea my email was going to be posted on the message
> > board. But since it did get posted, I maight as well post a more
> > detailed version of the email addresses. The first one (sent on the
> > 9th) was the one that threatened me with sexual violence.
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 1/1/10, Jonathan Johns jonathanjohns96@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Jonathan Johns jonathanjohns96@
> > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] I received two unwanted
> > emails, one was threatening
> > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Friday, January 1, 2010, 1:01 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Prometheus,
> > >  
> > > I recently received two unwanted emails, one was threatening. They
> > were mailed on Dec 9 and Dec 10. They were a follow-up to one on my
> > posts on ESA. I read them for the first time around Dec 24.
> > >  
> > > What, if anything, should I do about it?
> > >  
> > > Alan
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> >
>

In Part 1 Klemp suggests that "coffee"
is bad for ECKists' health due to the
caffeine. However he never mentions
the caffeine in tea. Also, on the news
today, I heard that a study was done
that showed that Coffee and Tea may
ward off Diabetes. Plus, one can always
drink decaf!

In the next story below Klemp is complaining
about his mother making him drink his
milk which had cream in it. Thus when
her back was turned he would pour it
back into the pitcher and mislead her
into thinking he drank it. Today, he stills
thinks that this was not a lie and that
"stretching the truth" was/is okay. Also,
milk in those days, and on the farm,
did not have Vitamin-D added, thus,
HK came down with rickets, although,
no one else in his family did.

BTW-Another reason why many people
today don't have a Vitamin-D deficiency
is due to Starbucks since they put a lot
of Vitamin-D enriched milk into their
products. Thus, another reason why coffee
can be good for the health. Also, in the
Middle East coffee is drank in order to
protect oneself from heat stroke. Therefore,
once again Klemp misses the mark and
has taken a narrow-minded and one
dimensional approach to the topic of "health."

Prometheus


prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> The following is a recollection about
> Klemp's youth on the farm, and the
> conclusion of his "health hints". However,
> there is some Golden-Tongued Wisdom
> found here. One of these is when he
> says to his mother, "My glass is empty!"
> Harry admits that he was "stretching
> the truth" which he claims was/is okay.
> Thus, his glass was not just "half-empty"
> it was/is all "empty." Klemp, today, seems
> to think that it was just fine learning to
> trick his Mother by lying (stretching the
> truth), and to demonstrate deviant behaviour
> (pouring the milk back into the pitcher).
> Boys will be boys, they say.
>
> HK: "When I was a boy, there was nowhere
> near the amount of nutritional information
> so readily available today. My older brother,
> Duane, suffered a greatly swollen ear when
> he was eight or nine. He was a spectacle
> when he arrived at school. Our family doctor
> gave him a shot of penicillin, and his ear soon
> shrank to normal size.
>
> In looking back, I suspect that Duane had
> a sensitivity to dairy products, for he often
> had earaches. BUT ours was a dairy farm;
> milk and cheese were a mainstay at mealtimes."
>
> ME: Well, that's possible. However, the problem
> Duane had could be from other causes too.
> Klemp is speculating on this, but food allergies
> are often overlooked even today. Duane did,
> years later, die of Cancer. I wonder why the
> Mahanta has to "suspect" this cause of Duane's
> problem rather than "know" it to be true when
> he, supposedly, has the ability to use the ECK-Vidya.
>
> HK: "For my part, I would gag at the sight
> of a single speck of cream on top of my
> glass of milk. BUT Mother insisted I sit at
> the breakfast table until the milk was gone.
> I really tried to drink it, BUT it just refused
> to go down. she was so insistent about it
> because I'd had rickets, a bone-deforming
> disease, a few years earlier, from a vitamin-
> D deficiency. Our farm milk had no added
> vitamin D, as did store bought milk. BUT
> she did not know that.
>
> `Drink your milk,' she scolded, "then you
> can go outside to play!'
>
> ME: What Klemp fails to see is that his
> mother was telling him to "go outside to
> play" and get his Vitamin-D from the sun!
>
> HK: "Mother had a lot to do, so she could
> not keep an eye on me every second.
> When she turned her back to wash dishes,
> I dumped my milk back into the pitcher
> and announced, `My glass is empty!' And
> that was the solemn truth. Our parents
> taught us not to lie, BUT stretching the
> truth was another matter."
>
> ME: Stretching the truth was another matter
> for Twitchell too! Let's face it, Klemp's behaviour
> was devious! I never would have done that
> and never stretched the truth until I became
> a teenager. I, too, had a problem with specks
> of cream in my glasses of milk as well. We
> had a milkman deliver ours from their dairy.
> I would take a spoon and gather the specks
> of cream up in it and then wipe the cream off
> on a napkin.
>
> HK: "However, I loved cheese. So I lifted
> a stack of slices from the cheese plate
> and put them on my dinner plate. Then
> I would return for a second and a third
> helping, to the utter amazement of my
> parents. The younger and the more it
> squeaked, the better. I certainly had no
> food sensitivity to cheese then, although
> I do now."
>
> ME: It's no wonder that Klemp has a
> food allergy to cheese today since he
> ate so much as a youth. Maybe HK did,
> after all, have an slight allergy to cheese
> way back then since his brother had an
> allergy to milk. Of course, we've all heard
> this "cheesy" story before. Klemp has
> told it often. I remember a Seminar, years
> ago, where he told us about this. Isn't
> this a waste of paper, time, and members'
> money?
>
> HK: "Maybe you will find HINTS in this
> letter so you may achieve better health
> for you and your family. I trust you will.
>
> Again, good health is an aid to spiritual
> unfoldment." [end]
>
> ME: I thought that "INITIATIONS" were
> `an aid to spiritual unfoldment.' Where
> are these? Klemp is side-stepping the
> real issue and gives nothing! We've seen
> or experienced this advice (hints) before.
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello All,
I thought that this would be interesting
for all to read and to comment on.
My bracketed [ ] comments and caps
are added. BTW this is PART 1 of 2:

The H.I. Letter December 2009

HK: "Dear Brothers of the Leaf,
An ECK principle states that good
health is an aid to spiritual unfoldment."

ME: [I don't think that this is an "ECK
principle" per se. But, one does feel
more positive and happy about life
when they have good health. However,
isn't poor health (like cancer) seen
as a test of faith for the ECKist/religionist?]

HK: "With that in mind, let us consider
how to better our health, and thus enjoy
living in a more satisfying way.

A couple, ECK Higher Initiates, approached
me in a food store. The wife mentioned
a problem with constipation [oh sh_t!],
a common complaint that goes with
the graying of hair [like with the Klemps'].

I told her of a certain liquid magnesium.
It is ten to twelve times more effective
than the capsules she was using. And
later, I heard [her fart and] that it was
giving her relief.

Yet constipation told a deeper, more
fundamental condition, which was
related to nutrition.

As the ECK would have it, I met the
couple two weeks later."

ME: [They were stalking you, dummy!
Is Klemp the spokesperson for all New
Age methods and supplements such as
Laetrile? He suggested that his oldest
brother, Duane, go to Mexico for Laetrile
treatments for cancer. HK couldn't help
him anymore, then, than he can help chelas
now! Actually, many of HK's suggestions
and practices (avoidance of M.D.s and
of current, valid, and accepted medical
treatments) does more harm than good.]

HK: "So I recommended a local radio
program that addresses health issues.

The Usual Hosts are a NUTRITIONIST
and a DIETICIAN, both longtime practitioners
in their respective fields. And both are
dedicated to helping people overcome
ailments of all kinds."

ME: [Is Klemp naive or stupid to be
giving recommendations? As LEM/
Mahanta with ALL KNOWLEDGE
available to him... why doesn't he
have his own radio show? Why do
unpaid Vahanas have to do all the
work? He's getting paid for doing
what, all day long? Let's hear a
live conversation, views, and a
Q & A segment for non-ECKists!
Harry's just lazy and is not what
he claims to be. The proof is in the
pudding!]

HK: "More than 90 percent of ALL
health issues, THEY SAY, are due
to poor nutrition.

THEY STRONGLY discourage the
use of chocolate and coffee, for both
are linked to jumpy nerves, and even
to migraine headaches. The problem
is the Caffeine in them."

ME: [Yet, Klemp overlooks the fact
that DARK Chocolate is good for
heart health, and caffeine doesn't
affect all people the same. Besides,
there is always DEcaffeinated coffee!
Klemp has such a limited focus!]

HK: "Soft drinks, too, are FROWNED
upon,both for Caffeine as well as
Carbohydrates."

ME: [Well, limit drinking these to one
or two DIET (sugar free) Caffeine FREE
soft drinks per day! And, use a straw
to prevent staining your teeth!]

HK: "Divide the latter by four to find the
amount of sugar that the carbohydrates
convert to, in teaspoonfuls. For example,
a Drink or Processed Food with twenty-eight
grams of carbohydrates soon changes
during digestion, into seven teaspoons
of sugar, which may produce all kinds
of problems for young and old alike."

ME: [Klemp has become quite the expert,
by proxy, but should this stuff (health info
available to anyone on the internet) be
in the H.I. Letter? Most EKies will interpret
this to mean that Klemp (the LEM/Mahanta)
is "frowning upon" using soft drinks and
chocolate. I will have to say that about 30
years ago, while attending a Darji Potluck,
one EK Leader suggested that Chocolate
be banded from future potlucks. It seems
that Klemp is finally up-to-speed, for him.]

HK: "A LICENSED Nutritionist must go
through A More Thorough Training
Program than does a Dietician."

ME: [Yet, Klemp stated earlier that
the radio program he's recommending
is Co-hosted by a "Dietician!" Thus,
half of the comments and health advice
are being given by a less qualified person.
Klemp likes to have it both ways. Those
who are no longer mesmerized by him
can see beyond his double talk!]

HK: "Should you be looking for a nutritionist,
be sure that the individual is licensed."

ME: [Is being "licensed" a guarantee
that they really know what they are
talking about? No! Klemp's an idiot!]

HK: "I understand that in some places,
nearly anyone can claim to be a nutritionist."

ME: [And, nearly anyone can "claim to
be" a LEM/Mahanta!]

HK: "At a recent meeting of the ECKANKAR
Board of Trustees, we handled the business
first. Then they asked if I would speak to
them."

ME: [Hmmmm. Maybe they wanted to be
given some real "spiritual meat" for a "change"]

HK: "So the ECK lit up for me the topic of
nutrition, and its vital relationship with good
health."

ME: [The Board could have read about it
in this H.I. Letter article or tuned into the
radio program, except, Klemp now thinks
he's an expert (of sorts) and wants to tout
his newly found knowledge.]

HK: "A Board Member asked for more
information and the aforementioned radio
program.

I GENERALLY steer clear of recommending
doctors and the like, because you can usually
find a qualified practitioner right in the local
area. BUT this member lived far from a licensed
nutritionist,

ME: [Beyond Radio/Computer EMF waves?]

HK: so I passed along their company's
Internet address. It is www.weightandwellness.
com. BUT note, advice that helps others may
hurt you."

ME: [Or, handing out advice may hurt Klemp
more since he broke the Law of NonInterference
by printing this, unsolicited, health advice!
However, let's not forget that Klemp is directing
his H.I.s to risk their health by tuning into the
Radio EMF Waves and to the EMF that their
computers generate. They have to be careful
because it's obvious that they don't have HK's
(LEM/Mahanta) protection!]

HK: "THEY are EXPERTS in their fields.
Helping people find better health is their
main concern." END of Part 1

ME: I'd say that their "main concern" is
making money just as it is with Klemp!
And, the Dietician nor the Nutritionist
are Medical Doctors or have a Ph.D in
a health related field. I'm trying to figure
out why Klemp is claiming that "THEY
ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELDS."
How's that work? Don't "they" just second
guess other so-called "experts" and
look at studies of a narrow and bias
focus with old information that supports
their philosophy. Hey! That's what Klemp
does! It's no wonder he relates to them
as he does!

Below is the site Klemp was talking
about. What's interesting is reading
the bios of these people and looking
at their pictures! For being "experts
in their fields" most certainly don't
look like they've been walking the
walk! Very unhealthy looking! Hey!
Klemp doesn't walk the walk either!
Look at his health!


http://www.weightandwellness.com/

Prometheus

Hello All,
FIRST- Let's move on from the ECK
chela nut/fanatic that's been sending
out negative emails to ESA site members.
We all know that "as above, so below"
is a direct factor and cause of his imbalance.

******
You're right Etznab! Klemp has said that,
"Jupiter was the 'Mahanta Consciousness'
as it appeared to the Romans," or "as it
appears" to EKists via the LEM!

BTW- The term you were probably looking for
is: "Adi-Mahanta. The primordial Mahanta. The
line of Mastership begun with RAMA, the first
world Savior, which has been handed down through
the centuries by the ECK Masters via Oral Secret
Teachings to those who were Initiated into the
Order of the Vairagi." (EK Lexicon, 1998, pg. 3)

This is interesting because this same "Rama"
is an Indian God who HK claims "brought the
ECK to India and later to the Aryans, the Fifth
Root Race." So, the First Mahanta only came
on-the-scene during the time of the Fifth Root
Race. And, this title and Consciousness was created
by the Vairagi Masters and not by Sugmad directly
(pg.172).

Now, if someone were to look up "Aryans" in
HK's 1998 EK Lexicon they would see that this
is the current ruling race. BTW- "RAMA" was not
listed as being a Mahanta in the EK Lexicon...
only a LEM. Why wouldn't Klemp list him as
a (Full) Mahanta? Maybe he's more detailed in
the new EK Lexicon and has done another
Tweak (reedit).

However, the truth is that Twitchell created
Eckankar's Mahanta circa Jan. 1, 1969. And,
"Mahanta" actually means "monastery head."
Marman and many other EKists know this, but
for Eckankar to work as a belief system one
has to have "faith" and toss reason aside! This
is how religions work... No Thinking is needed!

Prometheus




etznab wrote:

The words "as it appeared to" are interesting to me
in those definitions for "mahanta consciousness".

This suggests to me that the "M.C." can appear to
people under so many different forms. Like Jesus,
Krishna, Jupiter, etc.

Also interesting was how Krishna was described in
somewhat negative terms by both Julian Johnson &
Paul Twitchell. At other times the description is not
so negative.

In about the 1970s though, Paul appears to elaborate
further about "mahanta". He describes the "historical"
and "eternal" mahantas. I believe. There was a third
in the group (trinity) as well.

Perhaps Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold K.
fit into the category of "historical" mahanta? (Right
along there with Jesus, Jupiter and Krishna, etc.?)

Of course some of those characters are composed
of myths and the literal history dubious and far from
reality in some places. IMO.

BTW, I see no entry for "Eternal Mahanta" and / or
"Historical Mahanta" in Harold Klemp & Eckankar's
Lexicon. I don't believe they have an entry in Paul T.
Eckankar dictionary either.

I believe the Eckankar dictionary came out in 1973
and after Paul Twitchell was already dead. However,
I believe it was in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad (1970?) that
Paul elaborated on "mahanta". I will have to check
to see whether Darwin Gross or Harold Klemp wrote
about eternal, or historical mahantas and the reason
for illustrating them.

Etznab


prometheus wrote:
You make some good points Etznab.
I would say that the Roman God Jupiter
was an Astral Plane God that was created
by the Romans. Then again, I think that
all of those Gods that religions worship
have been created by men. Is it no wonder,
then, that in PT's Eckankar Dictionary
and in Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon that they
both state that the Roman God "Jupiter
was the Mahanta Consciousness to the
Romans." Thus, by definition, the Mahanta
is also a 2nd Plane God and is, therefore,
of the Astral Plane of Consciousness which
is ruled by KAL (Satan, devil).

Prometheus

etznab wrote:

rometheus,

I believe the term "mahanta consciousness"
evolved over time according to descriptions
given to it via Eckankar. Like, what was it?
1969 before Paul mentioned "mahanta" in
a wisdom note and The Flute of God? The
fuller descriptions of L.E.M. & Mahanta did
not appear until the last couple years in the
life of Paul Twitchell when he set out to ex-
plain them in the Shariyat books, I believe.
1970-1971?

In some earlier books with Rebazar Tarzs
I don't know that the word "mahanta" was
even given much mention, if at all. I think
the term "spiritual traveler" was mentioned
more.

Also, I have to consider the appearance in
Paul T's early dictionary for the term, and
where so many people (some legendary)
from history were said to be the mahanta
consciousness as vehicle for the Sugmad
as it appeared to .... (in so many words),
etc.

Jesus and Krishna were both mentioned.
And yet, Jesus is generally understood -
in Eckankar history - to have been a 2nd
initiate only.

So what initiation level is the "mahanta
consciousness"? I couldn't tell you. All I
can say (at this point) is the definitions
have apparently evolved over the years. I
believe that when the teachings became
a religion in July 1970 that "mahanta" &
L.E.M. merged to become identified as
the same thing around that time. Since I
suspect Eckankar had to be defined for
legal purposes and one of the things they
ask you (IMO) is: What is the title of the
person in charge & who is that person?

This is speculation on my part. Paul did
mention at least 3 "levels" of Mahanta -
I believe - in the Shariyat. Including the
"Eternal Mahanta" and "Historical Maha-
anta". All of these merged into the head
of the religion and organization of Eck-
ankar at some point, if you ask me. It is
very hard for the organization to separate
them from the leader of Eckankar, IMO,
as that might suggest the physical body,
the vehicle and leader of Eckankar is but
a limited form of "highest consciousness".
Remember the last part for the definition
for Mahanta Consciousnes used to be:

"[....] a state of God consciousness which
is beyond the titles given in religions which
designate states of consciousness; the
highest of all states of consciousness."

[See: Paul Twitchell Dictionary]

It means not so much of anything to me
what appears beside the definition(s) for
"mahanta" today unless I can prove that
information to be true. I think Paul said &
wrote a lot of stuff. I also think he exagg-
erated in some places. Besides that I do
not see how a highest state of conscious-
ness can be identified with a human and
limited vehicle. I'll give you an example.
Suppose a leader of Eckankar has / had
a physical disability of some kind. Even
suppose a leader died. How can human
beings limited by the physical senses &
human mortality equate with a "highest
state of consciousness"? Or, the highest?
Especially one such as called "Eternal
Mahanta" present from the beginning of
time?

Some things (including the highest of all
states of consciousness) became at one
point identified with a single human being,
IMO. This is what I suspect, at least.

Etznab

prometheus wrote:
Hello Etznab,
You said, "Wasn't the far ancient past
like some kind of "Golden Age" anyway?
Compared to today?"

I don't think so, but it's all relevant to
who you are and where you are and
when you were there, as well as, one's
state of mind. Some people are experiencing
the "Golden Age" now while others have
experienced their "Golden Age" in a past
lifetime. It doesn't necessarily have to
involve the consciousness of world society...
only yours and from your perspective.
All else is illusion and a test for Soul.
However, the knowledge of true
history is an aide for us to expand our
current awareness and to help made
it better for those who come after us.

"Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
truth escape us? How might that have happ-
ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
as literally true."

One can look at different stages and timeframes
of any society and see where the past was
better, in some areas, and worse in other
areas.

Censorship has always been a control tactic
used by those in power and how it's used has
varied. ECKankar has censorship too, and most
H.I.s know what many of the boundaries are.
Why censorship is condoned is related to having
an "EK membership card." One has to follow
the rules and be a part of the herd. That's why
many H.I.s turn a blind-eye and deaf-ear to
most of it in order to have ECKankar work for
them as it is with any religious belief system.
Blind Faith, Narrow Thinking, and the constant
use of the Imagination are key for EK to "work."

And, after all, Why doesn't Klemp have PT's
historic book "Difficulties Of Becoming The
Living ECK Master" reprinted by ECKankar?
It's because Klemp can't handle the truth
that it would reveal nor be able to deal with
the questions and doubt that would ensue.
Thus, we have censorship which is a negative
effect caused by Klemp's negative (lower
KAL plane) fears and deceit!

Prometheus

etznab wrote:
[....] Even in some of the temples people employed
inventions for the manifestation of apparent miracles.
What they got in return were donations. Of course,
they didn't tell people the real source of the miracles.
Otherwise donations might become less. [....]"

Something from the description of the movie I saw
where it documented various forms of deception that
were employed to make miracles appear to happen
using different forms of technology. This is where it
appears that science was used to promote ideas of
miracle-working gods existing behind the scenes. It
was a perversion of not only religion, but of science
as well. In my opinion:

"Set firmly at the intersection of religion, science
and commerce, the latest episode of ANCIENT
DISCOVERIES travels to Rome and Greece to
explore the commissioning, fabrication and pre-
sentation of marvels meant to instill awe and draw
hordes of deep-pocketed devotees. You will be
amazed to learn how the greatest minds of the age
were turned to the construction of what were little
more than parlor tricks, albeit enormously sophist-
icated and impressive ones."

http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=69989&ecid=SEO-0000046&pa=SEO-SSP

I believe that program appeared on the History
Channel some time back.

Add to this the fact people have fabricated even
ancient artifacts to frauduently propagate church
history, have told stories that were mythological
and / or symbolic - but accepted as literal truth,
used teachings and quotes from the past which
were fragmentary, little understood, and / or in a
language nobody today completely understands,
etc., and I see ample reason to be skeptical. To
investigate, examine and even question "outer"
forms of teachings - from science to religion.

Today it appears ironic how religion and science
are apparently divided, when many have argued
it was not always the case. Col. James Church-
ward speaking about "religion" in Lemuria gives
an opinion that religion was described in terms
a child could understand. Also, that religion and
science were not two separate things in the very
beginning. In fact, it is my belief, religion was
described in "scientific" terms then because the
people knew how both were connected.

So, when science today is used to investigate,
examine and, in some cases expose religious
fraud I think it helps to remember how science
was not always the record of ignorance about
how things work that is in existence today.

And, in my opinion, some people from earlier
times may have been much more advanced,
not less advanced (generally), compared with
people living today. Looking at remains of the
past through a modern (ignorant of the past)
lens and portraying them as less civilized,
less knowledgeable and less wise is (IMO) a
major insult to history. I'm talking particularly
about the ancient and far ancient past. Times
when monuments were constructed and tech-
nology existed that people today are still try-
ing to fathom.

Wasn't the far ancient past like some kind of
"Golden Age" anyway? Compared to today?
Gee, I wonder why things declined? Did the
truth escape us? How might that have happ-
ened, I wonder? Did it happen from believers
in outer authority accepting whatever evidence
was presented to them? Even if fabricated &
untrue? I think it entirely possible people were
fooled and will be fooled again. Especially the
ones who refuse to challenge deception, but
blindly accept a myth and /or pseudo history
as literally true.

Etznab

Hello Jonathan,
I really like this story because it shows
how pathological liars (like Twitchell)
can develop and hone their skills. It
could be that their brains get info
confused, or crossed connected. Thus,
they have compensated/adjusted
in order to hide this affliction over
the years. However, this also shows
a disassociation with society via deviant
behaviour. Twitchell was also a narcissist
and his lies fed his ego. He was fooling
people, some very intelligent, and these
"street smarts" became the foundation
for Eckankar.


Jonathan wrote:
I thought I would respond to HK's recent request for "Eck stories."
This story I am about to tell is a true story. I didn't make anything
up. I didn't exaggerate. I'm telling it exactly as it happened. Before
beginning the story I should tell you that Paul Twitchell never knew
the "Potato Pizza Man." Also, "Potato Pizza Man" is just a stupid nickname
that I made up for this person.

Back in late 2008 I was on my way out of Eckankar after being a member for 29
years (1979-2008). I believe it was December. I had been reading Ford Johnson's
book. I was reading the section in the book where he is talking about Paul
Twitchell being a pathological liar. Ford went into a lot of detail, and
actually much more detail that I had the patience to read, but he at least
covered the entire subject very thoroughly which is a valuable asset for future
generations to have. I was already aware of Twitchell's plagiarism before I read
Ford's book, but the book did reinforce my knowledge, and even added to it with
his many detailed examples.

Ford also discussed the various techniques that Twitchell used during his
fabrication of Eckankar. One of the things that Ford spoke about was how
Twitchell would take two completely unrelated pieces of information and then
piece them together into one thing. While I was reading this section something
kept popping into my mind. But then I would go back to reading, and it would pop
into my mind again. Finally, after about the third time, I stopped reading. I
said to myself "Why does "Joshi" (the guy that I knew at _________ University)
keep popping into my mind?" Then I thought back to my good friend from India
"Vijay."

I knew "Vijay" very well, and he introduced me to several other guys from India
- one of them was named "Joshi." He was a very likable guy, always telling funny
stories. He had a lot of personality. He had lots of friends because everybody
liked to hear the interesting stories that he told.

My good friend "Vijay" told me the following story. He and several other
Indians, including Joshi took a trip to _______ for an educational symposium.
They were all friends. After they got back, the bunch of them were standing in a
hallway talking to one of their professors. Vijay related the following story
about Joshi. This quote below is Joshi speaking. He is speaking to the professor
and telling him about their trip to the symposium in _______.

Joshi "Yeah, we went to the symposium. We had a great time. We went to this
restaurant and had potato pizza. The restaurant was started by an Italian guy
and an Irish guy. They got together and thought up this great idea to start a
restaurant selling potato pizza."

Vijay then explained to me as he seriously said "All us who went on the trip
just stood there silently." He lowered his voice as he said "The problem is…
there was no potato pizza." He went on to explain. "They truth is, we went to an
Italian place for pizza, and we also went to an Irish pub for some drinks. Joshi
took these two completely unrelated events and put them together into this
"potato pizza story." Vijay was laughing as he told me. but he was laughing
mostly out of embarrassment or perhaps as a result of feeling incredulous. But
he went on to tell me this. "Joshi's mother came over from India to visit them.
She was talking to Vijay and her son Joshi's other Indian friends. She told
them. "When Joshi tells you things, be careful what you believe because he likes
to tell fibs." So the fact that his mother told Vijay and his friends this
statement indicates to me that "Joshi" was this way from a young age.

I never really applied the term "pathological liar" to "Joshi" because I liked
the guy, but that is obviously what he was. The amazing thing is what Vijay told
me, and that is, Joshi has no idea that he is actually lying when he does this.
He's completely sincere. He has no clue that he is making stories up or lying.

So, that's the story. Isn't it interesting how I knew this guy Joshi way back in
1979? That he was a pathological liar, although a very nice one. That 1979 is
the same year that I joined Eckankar. That Eckankar is a religion that Paul
Twitchell stole from Indian religions, most notably Hinduism and Sikhism, or
derivatives of these two. It's way too many coincidences!

So I'm going to send this story into Eckankar. I hope they print it.