I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
similar in some ways, but different.

http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
Kapila.

In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
are mentioned here.

http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
of similarities. IMO.

The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
the order and sequence of creation.)

The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
Kabir.

The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

The apparent tendency in both systems seems
to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

"With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
organized religious interpretations which may be far,
far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
come disconnected from the true origins of their path
appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
leading the "blind".

As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

See what I mean? :)

For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
except when they are taken literally and people don't see
the difference between fiction and fact.

Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
they members of a particular religion or not - often have
to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
of "torture" for speaking their minds.

Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

Etznab






-----Original Message-----
From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am
Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
Thinking?

 






From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one
(at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.
 
I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did
(do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,
these two seemed to be on the same page,
so to speak.
 
Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?
 
It is all poetry.
 
Thanks for the link.
 
Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where
Kabir got this information.
 
Do you know?  

--- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
Thinking?
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM


 

That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to
connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

R.T.

Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know
about Kal Niranjan, etc.

Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas
issued from Sat Purush.

"When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-
Niranjan was incarnated."

http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&
book=4817& page=23

This page tells about it. And the links go to how the
lower worlds were created.

I doubt that is all to be taken literally.

Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on
Eckankar?

"No written instructions had been put
  down for the
followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the
sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,
took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the
ancient science of Soul Travel."

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1
(Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,
p. 59]

And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than
Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly
gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
Thinking?

 

Hi there!
 
The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!
 
Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published
short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with
my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my
idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very
point.
 
I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's
son,
but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in
the margins
of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in
order
to have any kind
  of relationship with Spirit.
 
And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 
Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 
 
How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?
 
And so forth all the way back to Gakko?
 
It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.
 
That is when I began to discover the books we weren't
supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 
connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"
all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.
 
And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"
throughout history.
 
Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."
 
I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,
say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all
psychologically open to auto-suggestion.
 
If things go well, it is because of Harold. If
  not, it is because
the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 
 
Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.
 
Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.
 
Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.
 
Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"
out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the
unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering
BECAUSE of Eckankar!
 
They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 
Their little world of "Super Normal" people.
 
With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"
are in Eckankar.
 
What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"
or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !
 
What could be worse than that? 
 
Or being "demoted" as a person in any
  way?
 
They give all their power to the heirarchy.
 
They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,
but it is psychological.
 
Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 
 
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
 
But you knew that!
 
 
 
         
 
       

--- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
wrote:

From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
Subject:
  [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?
To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM

 

Hello All,
Thanks for sharing your
comments and the info
about these books!

As far as "transcending
religion" it seems that this
is what we thought we were
doing when we joined the
"path" of Eckankar way back
when.

Early on, Eckankar seemed
to have a certain mystique
about it. The reality, now,
is that it was never what we
imagined or desired. This
PT/HK consciousness is based
upon delusions, lies, and
manipulations frozen
in time as meaningless and
imagined experiences and
dreams via Klemp's over-
simplified and mind
  numbing
hypnotic message. This is
the "real" reason people fall
asleep during his talks! And,
there's No spiritual meat
(protein)!

The Eckankar message is
merely a redundancy and
regurgitation of empty 2nd
and 4th Plane thoughts and
words.

PT's Eckankar is a New Age/
Westernized rewrite of the

Eastern thoughts and dogmas
once borrowed and plagiarized
(compiled) from Sant Mat
religions (etc.), and from
more knowledgeable/
enlightened people by
the trickster Twitchell.

HK's EK "path" has not only
become Christianized, but
has also been exposed as
just another "Feel Good"
religious sect that preaches
one thing and does another!
It's a Codependent scam!

Thus, the Klemps' egos
are feeling pretty good
right now and the "trickle-
down effect" is still sustaining
their EK followers/sheep/
chickens in the same ways
as other religions work
  their
magic on the numb, dumb,
fearful, and superstitious
masses.

Still, for Eckists who think
they can see beyond the
veil/void it's amazing to
see that they are quite
incapable of true change
and of discovering the
real path of TRUTH, and
of experiencing the art
of the obvious.

Truth has escaped these
Eckists and they will forever
remain a pawn of the KAL
and under Klemp's trance
of providing "sales service."

This, of course, benefits HK's
selfish motives, and, on the
other hand, it helps to give
Eckists a "higher" purpose.
This is why Klemp feels he
is doing no harm since it
provides of service for lost
Souls until they become advanced
enough to realize they don't
need a middleman.

However, the "catch" lies
within the promises made
and the innate desire of
soul to "Know" God and to
return Home again. Eckankar
manipulates this desire
  with
"initiations" that are turned
into a KAL "Trap/Test."

However, Not Desiring Initiations
(via a pure heart) is another
trap/test that has merely been
disguised while the "desire"
remains hidden from outer
sight. Thus, it seems to be
okay to "imagine" (and still
desire)
higher initiations on
the "INNER" via the ruse of
needing a Mahanta for more
and more of these fake initiations
in order to expand consciousness
for more and more spiritual
progress.

Eckists are chasing their tails
via Twitchell's and Klemp's
rendition of circular logic and
thinking. How can Self-Mastery
and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished
in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp
is training Eckists to become
more and more Codependent
upon the Mahanta and their
desires and attachments?

Look at the ECK stories... they
all require the intercession and
help of the Mahanta. Eckists,
via
  self-hypnosis and programming,
(attachment) are being taught
to call upon the Mahanta for
anything and everything.. . but
where is Soul and where is the
ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because
one mouthes certain "charged"
4th Plane words or thinks he/
she is "detached" doesn't make

it so!

What's interesting is that these
two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)
don't require money in order
to maintain (outer and Inner
initiations) a higher consciousness. ..
but Klemp does! Initiations aren't
needed! This is what structured
(Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in
order to control groups of people.
I'm amazed that Eckists can't or
don't want to see the correlation
and connect-the- dots.

Why can't or won't Eckists connect-
the-dots? It probably has to do
with their feelings of being "Superior
Normal" and the delusion that
gives them "all the answers" in
order to alleviate their
  doubts
and fears. The ego makes a better
servant than it does a master,
but with "initiations" and a "RESA
hierarchy" Eckists can't separate
ego from Soul.

Thus, when "Starting To Get It"
(a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)
writes what she did, in the 09/2009
H.I.
Letter, one has to wonder...
What has Klemp been teaching
his followers since he's been
in charge?

Prometheus

realbizarretarzs wrote:

So true. I really enjoyed your
experiment.

I used to do that sort of stuff
until it became more sad than
amusing.

Also, a while back, I forgot
to mention the books of
Alan Watts, starting with
"The Way of Zen" and
"The Wisdom of Insecurity".

The second title, of course,
is a paradox, but one that
makes sense without having
to go too far into the book
to see what he is talking about.

One doesn't have to be necessarily
into Zen or even
  Buddhism to
understand where he was coming
from.

His books are very easy to read
and are somewhat humorous.

Interestingly, he obtained
a master's degree in theology
and "divinity" but went on to
write twenty to thirty books
on Zen and Indian and
Chinese
philosophies, and the psychology
of religion, and the importance
of mysticism insofar as the
individual transcending man-
made religion.

whitemoby wrote:

Truth can never by systemized,
no matter how eloquently.

Moby

Rebazar Tarzs wrote:

In the story, Joseph Knecht,
after following instructions
to the letter, but not losing
his intuition, begins to question
everything, and comes to
see "Castilia" (or, insert your
favorite or not-so-favorite
community Utopia) as a kind
of ivory tower, oblivious to
real life, and thus, reality.

He begins to realize that,
after many years, and
  many
relationships, Castilia is a
self-protected society that
does little, if anything, for
the world outside its borders,
and is burderned by a hierarchy
of personalities and games
people play.

I won't reveal any more than
this, in
case someone is
currently reading "Magister
Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"
but I will say this - throughout
the whole story, Bruce Willis
is dead.

What?!?

No, actually, the truth seeker,
Knecht (which, in German,
means servant and/or knight)
(or so the Germans would have
us believe) is, to the dumb-
foundment of his "superiors",
really looking for truth.

No substitutes.

I hope I didn't give away too
much, as the book is almost
600 pages long, but, actually,
I haven't, because there is
so much truth in the story
that everytime I re-read it,
I realize something new.

I know we used to say that
about certain
  ECK books
(before Harold) but the
stuff that Paul took from
others is timeless as well.

What was kind of amusing
is that when I read the book
the first time, Darwin was
the "Master."

One of the first main characters

in the story is the "Music Master."

prometheus wrote:

Here's a review from Amazon.com
of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:

"What is the Glass Bead Game?
It is no less than the highest
reason that an entire future
civilization exists. It is the
grand and ongoing synthesis
of all knowledge into a unified,
integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)

It is an attempt to forge a
holographic intellectual world
where all is interconnected and
reflected in every part. This is
a mission to weave the golden
thread of significance and meaning
through every part of a culture-
science and the arts and the
spiritual are all unified into a
system of
  concentric, interpenetrating
rings.

All this is primarily accomplished
by using the language of music
and mathematics as common
universal symbolism (the "glass
beads" are part of a symbolic
physical
aid that was once used
for this purpose.)

It is no wonder that the book
places the first origins of the
game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,
and Socratic ethics. No wonder
that the League of Journeyers
to the East also figure prominently
in its development. To some
extent the Game has been the
goal of all sensitive and introspective
individuals and groups down
through the ages.

All of this stands in stark contrast
to our own Feuilletonistic Age
where all knowledge, all culture,
is unsynthesized, chaotic, and
largely meaningless babble.

The crisis that develops from
this is that even if you accomplish
this grand synthesis in some isolated
ivory tower refuge of
  intellectual
contemplatives- it isn't enough.

It is necessary to reach out to the
entire society once it is achieved
in the same way that a Bodhisattva
attempts to enlighten the rest
of
mankind instead of individually
passing onto Nirvana. The entire
society must be made whole and
sacred and not just an isolated elite.

This is the realization that comes
even to the Magister Ludi, the
Master of the Game.

For the game to be ultimately
meaningful we have to coach
everyone to eventually become
Masters."

************ ********* ********* ****

Thus, another reason to justify religion!
Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/
outflow principle) be accomplished without
the religious strings attached? Not by
Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached
to their membership donations or else
they can lose
  initiations!

Prometheus

Some time ago I took notice of the words
"purukh" (Purush) and "Prakrti" (Prakrta).
How they contained similar sounds.

At the heart of explanations for creation
and how "material" & "spiritual" coexist
I found those two words. In Indian texts
mostly.

Both words begin by illustrating the con-
sonants P + R. Prakrti, however, appears
to have the Sanskrit root "kr", which IMO
is connected with the ideas of action and
karma. The "ti" part could be a "feminine"
ending (I'm guessing).

Both of those words are at the heart of
creation according to certain teachings.
They also contain the "letters" P + R +
K (when you spell purush as purukh).

Here are some etymologies that may,
or may not help.

prak - "Definitions: previously, before, first[ly]
(Sanskrit).

puru - "Definitions: 'much, many'." (Vedic)

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/vedol-4-X.html

In the Vedas there is a Dawn Maiden
by the name of Ushas, I believe.

Ushas - "The lovely Hindu dawn maiden who
sprung from the head of Dyaus. The twin sister
of Nakt, or Ratri [the goddess of night] (Hindu
Mythology). Associated spellings/words: usas
['shining; east'] (Sanskrit); uchanti ['shining']
(Vedic); eos; aurora."

Notice the word uchanti has a "c".

The "c" in Purukh changing to "s" is not very
uncommon. I've seen a number of cases where
the "c" and "k" sounds evolve to "s".

Viva La France! (Home of the Franks :)

In some places the definition for "guru" means
"dispeller of darkness". Now I wonder if that is
connected to the idea of "light bearer"?

Light and darkness are common symbols for
good and evil. However, what does Purukh &
Prakrta really symbolize? [BTW, the latter is
connected with the gender that was once de-
monized in the Bible. The feminine. Consider
also how in many traditions the "Sat Guru" is
(the vehicle of which, at least) is associated
with the opposite, or "masculine" gender.]

Is this really a very unique teaching? The idea
that "God" is male & "Nature" is female? It is
really quite common actually.

In the Anurag Sagar it seemed that Kal Niranjan
wanted to create a world or something. And here
is what it said on the Sant Mat site:

Fifth Shabda – Kal-Niranjan : Full name of the
Negative Power, often shortened to Kal (q.v.).
Niranjan means "beyond illusion," and is applied
to Kal ("Time") because he is the creator of illusion.

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=24

Kal, the creator of illusion, is Niranjan? Beyond
illusion?

Isn't that special :)

Another name for Kal Niranjan on the site seems
to be Dharam Rai. This being seems to be quite
devotional to Sat Purush. One day, however, the
being appears to say (these are in italics):

"Oh, Sahaj, my brother – go and make this request
to Sat Purush: I don't like this small place. Please
give me a big kingdom. In my heart I have felt such
love for Him! He should bless me with a big place.
He should either give me the world of the gods, or
else a separate world."

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

Sat Purush replies (also italics):

After hearing the words of Sahaj, Sat Purush said this:

"I am pleased with Dharam Rai; take this to your heart:
I have given him the three Worlds, now go and tell him
to develop the Void plane. Oh Sahaj, tell him to make
his creation there."

And at the bottom of the page it has a description for
what is the void plane.

"The Void Plane: The three worlds in their pre-existent
state."

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=25

***************************************************************

Now I am wondering how old are these teachings, the
story, whatever, in the Anurag Sagar? And how do I
know they are the original, for one? And how do I know
it is not the case of one person borrowing from another
and making up their own version of things?

Sant Mat and Eckankar both hearken back to Kabir
when recounting the history of their teachings. And
if Sant Mat was know earlier than the word - and the
modern day - "Eckankar", Where did Sant Mat come
from? Where did Kabir get his teachings? For that
matter.

This is a Wikipedia quote:

The Sant Mat movement was not homogeneous, and
consisted mostly of the Sants' own socio-religious
attitudes which were based on bhakti (devotion) as
described a thousand years earlier in the Bhagavad
Gita.[3] Sharing as few conventions with each other as
with the followers of the traditions they challenged, the
Sants appear more as a diverse collection of spiritual
personalities than a specific religious tradition, although
they acknowledged a common spiritual root.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Mat

Whether true or not, that gave me the impression of
so many people scattered around the area each with
their own particular form of tradition.

Here is a page with summary for the philosophy of
Kabir.

"The basic religious principles he espoused are simple.
According to Kabir, all life is an interplay of two spiritual
principles. One is the personal soul (Jivatma) and the
other is God (Paramatma). It is Kabir's view that salvation
is the process of bringing into union these two divine
principles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir

The bringing into union? Nanak appears to suggest the
contact with Nam. And Radha Soami has the sound
current before spiritual liberation. And before the sound
current, has contact with a living master. Eckankar also
appears to echo the Sat Guru, Shabda & Jivan Mukti
paradigm (notice the word "jiva" in Jivan Mukti).

I'm trying to spell out the "apparent" duality being here
described in symbolic terms. For example, there are
the terms "Atma" and "Jivatma". One appears to mean
the "spiritual" principle of soul and the other the "living"
principle (that tied to matter). Mystic Judaism and even
Islam have different kinds of "souls", too. The "animal"
soul, etc.

What is the "common root" in all of this? Whatever it is
there appear to be dozens of ways (and religions) trying
to explain it. Now it so happens there are a number of
different paths (Eckankar included?) which make seem
as though the prerequisite for spiritual liberation means
joining their particular group? Accepting their particular
"Living Master" (prerequisite meaning what you need to
do first)? Did I spell that right?

Something is wrong with this picture if several different
paths and religions have it that their version is the true
version and all the others are somehow less. Offshoots,
etc.

This post is just a long-winded way of saying I doubt it
that all appear to have a common root. Because if they
did then somebody would have discovered it by now &
painted a picture of the "plant" that has since evolved.
Instead I see a whole orchard of "fruit trees" and even
nobody is actually certain it was an "apple tree" in the
Garden of Eden.

If we had the "root" then wouldn't we have the truth?

Etznab















-----Original Message-----
From: etznab@...
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 4:04 pm
Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular
Thinking?

 








I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.

And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.



Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked

similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I

believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I

saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed

over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks

similar in some ways, but different.



http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html



Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and

Kapila.



In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh

are mentioned here.



http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html



It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak

Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)



The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the

teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number

of similarities. IMO.



The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are

curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya

philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show

the order and sequence of creation.)



The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).



It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for

Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by

Kabir.



The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya



The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.



http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



The apparent tendency in both systems seems

to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".



From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:



"With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:

When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was

incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the

body of Sat Purush – that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"



http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23



I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described

as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's

story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,

where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".



IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are

the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths

literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas

that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal

organized religious interpretations which may be far,

far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-

come disconnected from the true origins of their path

appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"

leading the "blind".



As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!



See what I mean? :)



For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)

is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To

look at where they came from & how the history evolved.



Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and

clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have

visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't

have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths

except when they are taken literally and people don't see

the difference between fiction and fact.



Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can

the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell

from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?



I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from

the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and

keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same

teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the

lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?



Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-

ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?



However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these

stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.

Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of

them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those

sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be

they members of a particular religion or not - often have

to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms

of "torture" for speaking their minds.



Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-

pool and everything goes down the drain? :)



Etznab



-----Original Message-----

From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>

To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:37 am

Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

Thinking?



 



From what I could trace, Kabir was the first one

(at least in a long time) to talk about all this stuff.

 

I don't know if he called it EK Onkar like Guru Nanak did

(do you know?) but, although they never met in the physical,

these two seemed to be on the same page,

so to speak.

 

Do you have "The Kabir Book" by Robert Bly?

 

It is all poetry.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

Fifteen years ago or so I was trying to figure out where

Kabir got this information.

 

Do you know?  



--- On Thu, 10/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:



From: etznab@... <etznab@...>

Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

Thinking?

To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com

Date: Thursday, October 15, 2009, 11:33 PM



 



That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to

connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.



R.T.



Did you trace anything to Kabir. He seemed to know

about Kal Niranjan, etc.



Apparently, Kal Niranjan was the 5th of 16 shabdas

issued from Sat Purush.



"When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-

Niranjan was incarnated."



http://santmat- thetruth. de/index. php?option= com_book&

book=4817& page=23



This page tells about it. And the links go to how the

lower worlds were created.



I doubt that is all to be taken literally.



Wasn't Kabir the first to give written instructions on

Eckankar?



"No written instructions had been put

  down for the

followers of ECKANKAR, nor any part of it, until the

sixteenth century when Kabir, the Hindu mystic poet,

took it upon himself to unwrap the mysteries of the

ancient science of Soul Travel."



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings, Vol. 1

(Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), by Paul Twitchell,

p. 59]



And wasn't Kabir about 21 years older (b. 1440) than

Rebazar Tarzs ("reportedly" b. 1461)? who allegedly

gave instructions to Paul Twitchell? (What to write?).



Etznab



-----Original Message-----

From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>

To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm

Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular

Thinking?



 



Hi there!

 

The intercession part is the part I really don't understand!

 

Because of "Key To Secret Worlds" and the previously published

short articles found in "In My Soul I Am Free,"  I was at odds with

my Presbyterian minister while taking confirmation classes (not my

idea, of course, but my parents' idea of a good  time) over this very

point.

 

I got the highest grades on everything, even higher than the minister's

son,

but the minister was always trying to convince me, and wrote stuff in

the margins

of my essays, that intercession with "Jesus Christ" was necessary in

order

to have any kind

  of relationship with Spirit.

 

And I agree with you about everything else you just said. 

Was Paul paying Rebazar $160.00 a year? 

 

How much did Rebazar pay Fubbi Quantz?

 

And so forth all the way back to Gakko?

 

It's funny that you mention connecting the dots.

 

That is when I began to discover the books we weren't

supposed to know about. In the nineties I was trying to 

connect the dots, to trace the "history" of "Eckankar"

all the way back to at least 5,000 years B.C.

 

And by doing so, I was also researching "EK" and "HU"

throughout history.

 

Not exactly exclusive to "Eckankar."

 

I think it is just a big psychological circus that takes place,

say, for an example, at a major seminar. People get all

psychologically open to auto-suggestion.

 

If things go well, it is because of Harold. If

  not, it is because

the chela has not been doing his or her "homework." 

 

Or they are being "tested" by the Kal.

 

Or they are being "tested" by the ECK.

 

Harold can dish it out both ways.  And eat the cake himself.

 

Again, just like with most religions, people stay with "Eckankar"

out of fear, not just fear of the "consequences" , but fear of the

unknown - something they are supposed to be conquering

BECAUSE of Eckankar!

 

They can't because they are clinging to the known world. 

Their little world of "Super Normal" people.

 

With alot of these people, most or all of their "friends"

are in Eckankar.

 

What would they think?  And the idea of letting others "below"

or "beneath" them passing them up in "initiations" !

 

What could be worse than that? 

 

Or being "demoted" as a person in any

  way?

 

They give all their power to the heirarchy.

 

They are powerless to help themselves. Not really, of course,

but it is psychological.

 

Whatever happened to power, wisdom and freedom? 

 

The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.

 

But you knew that!

 

 

 

         

 

       



--- On Mon, 10/12/09, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

wrote:



From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>

Subject:

  [EckankarSurvivorsA nonymous] Re: A Book of Circular Thinking?

To: EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com

Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:34 PM



 



Hello All,

Thanks for sharing your

comments and the info

about these books!



As far as "transcending

religion" it seems that this

is what we thought we were

doing when we joined the

"path" of Eckankar way back

when.



Early on, Eckankar seemed

to have a certain mystique

about it. The reality, now,

is that it was never what we

imagined or desired. This

PT/HK consciousness is based

upon delusions, lies, and

manipulations frozen

in time as meaningless and

imagined experiences and

dreams via Klemp's over-

simplified and mind

  numbing

hypnotic message. This is

the "real" reason people fall

asleep during his talks! And,

there's No spiritual meat

(protein)!



The Eckankar message is

merely a redundancy and

regurgitation of empty 2nd

and 4th Plane thoughts and

words.



PT's Eckankar is a New Age/

Westernized rewrite of the



Eastern thoughts and dogmas

once borrowed and plagiarized

(compiled) from Sant Mat

religions (etc.), and from

more knowledgeable/

enlightened people by

the trickster Twitchell.



HK's EK "path" has not only

become Christianized, but

has also been exposed as

just another "Feel Good"

religious sect that preaches

one thing and does another!

It's a Codependent scam!



Thus, the Klemps' egos

are feeling pretty good

right now and the "trickle-

down effect" is still sustaining

their EK followers/sheep/

chickens in the same ways

as other religions work

  their

magic on the numb, dumb,

fearful, and superstitious

masses.



Still, for Eckists who think

they can see beyond the

veil/void it's amazing to

see that they are quite

incapable of true change

and of discovering the

real path of TRUTH, and

of experiencing the art

of the obvious.



Truth has escaped these

Eckists and they will forever

remain a pawn of the KAL

and under Klemp's trance

of providing "sales service."



This, of course, benefits HK's

selfish motives, and, on the

other hand, it helps to give

Eckists a "higher" purpose.

This is why Klemp feels he

is doing no harm since it

provides of service for lost

Souls until they become advanced

enough to realize they don't

need a middleman.



However, the "catch" lies

within the promises made

and the innate desire of

soul to "Know" God and to

return Home again. Eckankar

manipulates this desire

  with

"initiations" that are turned

into a KAL "Trap/Test."



However, Not Desiring Initiations

(via a pure heart) is another

trap/test that has merely been

disguised while the "desire"

remains hidden from outer

sight. Thus, it seems to be

okay to "imagine" (and still

desire)

higher initiations on

the "INNER" via the ruse of

needing a Mahanta for more

and more of these fake initiations

in order to expand consciousness

for more and more spiritual

progress.



Eckists are chasing their tails

via Twitchell's and Klemp's

rendition of circular logic and

thinking. How can Self-Mastery

and Spiritual Freedom be accomplished

in THIS LIFETIME when Klemp

is training Eckists to become

more and more Codependent

upon the Mahanta and their

desires and attachments?



Look at the ECK stories... they

all require the intercession and

help of the Mahanta. Eckists,

via

  self-hypnosis and programming,

(attachment) are being taught

to call upon the Mahanta for

anything and everything.. . but

where is Soul and where is the

ECK (Holy Spirit)? Just because

one mouthes certain "charged"

4th Plane words or thinks he/

she is "detached" doesn't make



it so!



What's interesting is that these

two Entities (Soul and Holy Spirit)

don't require money in order

to maintain (outer and Inner

initiations) a higher consciousness. ..

but Klemp does! Initiations aren't

needed! This is what structured

(Lower Plane) Hierarchies use in

order to control groups of people.

I'm amazed that Eckists can't or

don't want to see the correlation

and connect-the- dots.



Why can't or won't Eckists connect-

the-dots? It probably has to do

with their feelings of being "Superior

Normal" and the delusion that

gives them "all the answers" in

order to alleviate their

  doubts

and fears. The ego makes a better

servant than it does a master,

but with "initiations" and a "RESA

hierarchy" Eckists can't separate

ego from Soul.



Thus, when "Starting To Get It"

(a 6th, ESA, Staffer at the ESC)

writes what she did, in the 09/2009

H.I.

Letter, one has to wonder...

What has Klemp been teaching

his followers since he's been

in charge?



Prometheus



realbizarretarzs wrote:



So true. I really enjoyed your

experiment.



I used to do that sort of stuff

until it became more sad than

amusing.



Also, a while back, I forgot

to mention the books of

Alan Watts, starting with

"The Way of Zen" and

"The Wisdom of Insecurity".



The second title, of course,

is a paradox, but one that

makes sense without having

to go too far into the book

to see what he is talking about.



One doesn't have to be necessarily

into Zen or even

  Buddhism to

understand where he was coming

from.



His books are very easy to read

and are somewhat humorous.



Interestingly, he obtained

a master's degree in theology

and "divinity" but went on to

write twenty to thirty books

on Zen and Indian and

Chinese

philosophies, and the psychology

of religion, and the importance

of mysticism insofar as the

individual transcending man-

made religion.



whitemoby wrote:



Truth can never by systemized,

no matter how eloquently.



Moby



Rebazar Tarzs wrote:



In the story, Joseph Knecht,

after following instructions

to the letter, but not losing

his intuition, begins to question

everything, and comes to

see "Castilia" (or, insert your

favorite or not-so-favorite

community Utopia) as a kind

of ivory tower, oblivious to

real life, and thus, reality.



He begins to realize that,

after many years, and

  many

relationships, Castilia is a

self-protected society that

does little, if anything, for

the world outside its borders,

and is burderned by a hierarchy

of personalities and games

people play.



I won't reveal any more than

this, in

case someone is

currently reading "Magister

Ludi: The Glass Bead Game,"

but I will say this - throughout

the whole story, Bruce Willis

is dead.



What?!?



No, actually, the truth seeker,

Knecht (which, in German,

means servant and/or knight)

(or so the Germans would have

us believe) is, to the dumb-

foundment of his "superiors",

really looking for truth.



No substitutes.



I hope I didn't give away too

much, as the book is almost

600 pages long, but, actually,

I haven't, because there is

so much truth in the story

that everytime I re-read it,

I realize something new.



I know we used to say that

about certain

  ECK books

(before Harold) but the

stuff that Paul took from

others is timeless as well.



What was kind of amusing

is that when I read the book

the first time, Darwin was

the "Master."



One of the first main characters



in the story is the "Music Master."



prometheus wrote:



Here's a review from Amazon.com

of Magister Ludi, Master of the Game:



"What is the Glass Bead Game?

It is no less than the highest

reason that an entire future

civilization exists. It is the

grand and ongoing synthesis

of all knowledge into a unified,

integrated whole (a Unio Mystica.)



It is an attempt to forge a

holographic intellectual world

where all is interconnected and

reflected in every part. This is

a mission to weave the golden

thread of significance and meaning

through every part of a culture-

science and the arts and the

spiritual are all unified into a

system of

  concentric, interpenetrating

rings.



All this is primarily accomplished

by using the language of music

and mathematics as common

universal symbolism (the "glass

beads" are part of a symbolic

physical

aid that was once used

for this purpose.)



It is no wonder that the book

places the first origins of the

game with Pythagoras, Gnostics,

and Socratic ethics. No wonder

that the League of Journeyers

to the East also figure prominently

in its development. To some

extent the Game has been the

goal of all sensitive and introspective

individuals and groups down

through the ages.



All of this stands in stark contrast

to our own Feuilletonistic Age

where all knowledge, all culture,

is unsynthesized, chaotic, and

largely meaningless babble.



The crisis that develops from

this is that even if you accomplish

this grand synthesis in some isolated

ivory tower refuge of

  intellectual

contemplatives- it isn't enough.



It is necessary to reach out to the

entire society once it is achieved

in the same way that a Bodhisattva

attempts to enlighten the rest

of

mankind instead of individually

passing onto Nirvana. The entire

society must be made whole and

sacred and not just an isolated elite.



This is the realization that comes

even to the Magister Ludi, the

Master of the Game.



For the game to be ultimately

meaningful we have to coach

everyone to eventually become

Masters."



************ ********* ********* ****



Thus, another reason to justify religion!

Or, can this same thing (i.e. the inflow/

outflow principle) be accomplished without

the religious strings attached? Not by

Eckankar! ECKists have strings attached

to their membership donations or else

they can lose

  initiations!



Prometheus

Hello Etznab and All,
I'm wondering why or if Eckists
have ever noticed that their religion
is dualistic versus non-dualistic.
And, have Eckists ever pondered
or contemplated on the differences
between the two?

With Klemp everything is black or
white, pos. or neg., outer or inner,
right or wrong,  passion or virtue,
low versus high.

Myself... I don't see that these
opposites have anything to do
with the Divine. It's more about
us and how religions have interpreted
the Divine in order to analyze
and explain or understand IT.


Prometheus



etznab wrote:


I don't have the book by Kabir that you mentioned.
And I don't know that he ever mentioned ek onkar.

Some of what I saw from the Anurag Sagar looked
similar to Samkhya (Sankhya) philosophy where I
believe purusha is mentioned, too. However, what I
saw from the history of Samkhya is that it changed
over the years. Vedanta, or Advaita Vedanta looks
similar in some ways, but different.

http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a67.html

Samkhya seems to go back to about 800 B.C. and
Kapila.

In connection with Guru Nanak, the words Alak Purukh
are mentioned here.

http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/nanak.html

It seems that someone is comparing Nanak to Alak
Purukh (another spelling for Alak Purush?)

The teachings of Kapila, Kabir, Nanak and even the
teachings of Sant Mat & Eckankar have a number
of similarities. IMO.

The 16 shabdas mentioned in the Anurag Sagar are
curious. As are the "24 principles" of the Samkhya
philosophy. (I've seen various numbers used to show
the order and sequence of creation.)

The common word here is "purush" (also purukh).

It might be interesting to look at the cosmology for
Samkhya and compare it to the Anurag Sagar, by
Kabir.

The 24 principles of Samkhya are illustrated here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samkhya

The 16 shabdas are mentioned here.

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

The apparent tendency in both systems seems
to tend from the "spiritual" to the "physical".

From the section: The Manifestation of the 16 Shabdas:

"With the fifth Shabda a brilliant light came into existence:
When Sat Purush uttered the fifth Shabda, Kal-Niranjan was
incarnated. He is created from the most glorious part of the
body of Sat Purush â€" that is why he troubles the Soul. [....]"

http://santmat-thetruth.de/index.php?option=com_book&book=4817&page=23

I find that remarkable, because Lucifer was described
as "light-bearing" (the literal translation). And Lucifer's
story is similar to the one illustrated in Anurag Sagar,
where Kal Niranjan becomes "damned".

IMO though, the only thing that really be damned are
the numbers of ignorant people led to interpret myths
literally, and according to numerous religious dogmas
that appear to damn them for disagreeing with formal
organized religious interpretations which may be far,
far away from the truth. In other words, those that be-
come disconnected from the true origins of their path
appear to lead others along a similar path. The "blind"
leading the "blind".

As for those who want to see the truth. Damn them!

See what I mean? :)

For example, part of the intention behind this site (IMO)
is to put the teachings of Eckankar into a spotlight. To
look at where they came from & how the history evolved.

Over at A.R.E. it's not so easy to dispell the myths and
clarify fiction from fact because (like other places I have
visited) the power of myth is very, very strong. And I don't
have so much problem reading stories, legends & myths
except when they are taken literally and people don't see
the difference between fiction and fact.

Who even knows the true interpretation of Lucifer? Can
the story be proven as factually true? Some angel fell
from Heaven and tempted Soul to do the same?

I mean, what is the role of Kal Niranjan described from
the teachings of Eckankar? Is it not to "trap" Soul and
keep it bound to the lower worlds? Except the same
teachings poetically describe Soul being sent into the
lower worlds by "God"? Is this not correct?

Who gave the Adi Karma to Soul in the beginning acc-
ording to the teachings of Eckankar? See what I mean?

However if anybody tries to make sense out of all these
stories (or goolash) it only stirs the pot that much more.
Then you have one religion fighting another, with each of
them claiming to have the best interpretation. And those
sincerely trying to research and discover the truth - be
they members of a particular religion or not - often have
to deal with "The Inquisition" and undergo various forms
of "torture" for speaking their minds.

Circular thinking? Is that like what happens in a whirl-
pool and everything goes down the drain? :)

Etznab

Sharon,

Thanks loads for that plagiarism link! I'll be sure to
copy it this time (and remember where I put it) just
in case the page disappears again.

You wrote:

"I just really want to get back to work & finish what
I started some years back since my stuff is finally
out of storage, and just get it done & over with so
that I can never think about it again!!"

If you ever find (or upload) the book Introduction to
Eckankar be sure to let me know. It's the one book
I don't have and I would really like to look at it.

If anybody else knows of an online copy, please let
me know. It's one of the early books that I'm miss-
ing.

Etznab


-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon <brighttigress@...>
To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com;
eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com;
X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 8:36 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Center for Twitchellian Plagiarism

 






Hi All -

Just got back from a wonderful week without the internet, now I'm
catching up on the email, someone sent me
http://elearn.mtsac.edu/philosophy/center.htm which I believe is the
old link, evidently David Lane put it back up!! 

Also, before I left, someone told me that Geocities is shutting down on
10/26, so I have to move "The Unauthorized Eckankar(tm) Page" site, but
in the meantime I checked & it's archived at
http://web.archive.org/web/*/geocities.com/eckcult.   Unfortunately,
none of David Lane's sites seem to be there, he does something so they
can't be collected by bots or something.  So anyone who's got the
geocities link, please change it!  

I was very surprised that Geocities didn't notify everyone, so if
anyone has a Geocities site or knows someone who does, you might want
to let them
  know.

And....Violin Mike, thank you so very much for posting the link to the
$cientology info, that's what I was looking for but as usual got
distracted before I relocated it!  

You know, everyone, life without ekult is just *so* great, and it all
looks so ridiculous now when I look at it.  Unbelievable that we got
ourselves so messed up & brainwashed without even realizing what was
happening, isn't it?   I just really want to get back to work & finish
what I started some years back since my stuff is finally out of
storage, and just get it done & over with so that I can never think
about it again!!

Life is great, and it's so much fun without all that ekult nonsense
constantly running in the head like a computer virus.  I thought I was
experiencing "heaven" in the cult, but I was wrong!!  "Heaven" is my
grandkids, gardening, trees, and just plain life itself.  It just "is". 


Gotta go, I still have a few days of email to sort thru, not to mention
finish recovering from a week with my precious & very active
grandsons!!   

Thanks to everyone who's posting such interesting stuff!!

Hugs,

Sharon

It could happen at this 2009 EK
World wide Seminar! Harry set it
all up for Joan in "Those Wonderful
ECK Masters" back in 2005.

I would imagine that if little old
shrinking, wrinkled and grey Harry
is to step down as LEM (someday)
that he'd want to make Joan a 12th
Initiate and ECK Master, beforehand,
even though she could never become
the LEM, unless, she had a sex change
operation of course!

Prometheus
p.s. Why hasn't Rebazar written his
own Herb or Healthy Foods book?
After all, when someone can live for
500 years, in the same physical body,
and without aging a day they should
be sharing this "How To" information
with the current LEM/Mahanta, as
well as, other followers of Eckankar
and with the world! Klemp doesn't
have to "channel" Rebazar in order
to write the book since RT's still
living on this Physical Plane, on
earth, right? Maybe Rebazar can
dictate the book to Doug Marman
or Don Ginn or Phil Morimitsu and
Eckankar can edit and publish it?

So, where's the book? When will it
be released? Will it have an EMR and
a rapid aging cure for Klemp? Will
it help cure stupidity (for Eckists) too?
Believe It Or Not - We Want to Know!

Hello All,
This is an updated/edited
post. It also addresses
whether or not Harry will
announce that he has made
Joan an ECK Master (she
cannot become a LEM since
she's a female. I wonder if
that rule covers sex changes?
Would a sex change to make
her a male give her "positive"
atoms?).

BTW- Why didn't Eckankar
celebrate (at the 2008 EWWS)
what would have been Twitchell's
100th Birthday on Oct. 22,
2008? And why didn't Klemp
mention Darwin's death at
that same 2008 ECK World
Wide Seminar?

The following definition is
found on pages 61-62 of
Klemp's 1998 EK Lexicon:


"ECK SPIRITUAL NEW YEAR.
October 22, the birthdate
of the modern-day founder
of Eckankar, Paul Twitchell,
is celebrated as the spiritual
new year in ECK.

Traditionally in the autumn,
it signifies the high point or
spiritual harvest in the year's
cycle. This is the beginning
of a new, higher cycle for the
next year.

Historically October 22 is the
date the Living ECK Masters
of the times receives the Rod
of ECK Power and begins his
spiritual duties."

******************************

FYI- Klemp gives "1908" as
Twitchell's birth year on the
copyright page of the Combined
Shariyats.

BTW- Why does Klemp say that
PT is the "Modern-Day Founder
of Eckankar?" Isn't Eckankar an
"ancient religion" that PT merely
"introduced" to the United States
and "Western World?" Or, is HK
implying that Paul actually "found"
Eckankar laying around (on the
ground or under a rock?) and
picked it up!


Klemp gave the following as
part of the definition for the
"ECK Spiritual New Year:"

"Traditionally in the autumn,
it signifies the high point or
spiritual harvest in the year's
cycle. This is the beginning
of a new, higher cycle for the
next year."

However, in farming/gardening
terms, SPRING is the "beginning
of a new cycle" of growth, especially,
after a long hard Winter. Klemp
seems confused since FALL
symbolizes the end of the
growing cycle with the harvest.
Thus, this was a poor/twisted
analogy.

Klemp is doing a PT spin by
"twisting the facts" in order
to confuse people with distortions
of the truth.

Klemp continues with the B.S.
by saying:

"Historically October 22 is the
date the Living ECK Masters
of the times receives the Rod
of ECK Power and begins his
spiritual duties."

It's quite a coincidence that
the "Modern-Day Founder"
of Eckankar (Twitchell) was
born on the exact same day
that the ROD of ECK POWER
is "historically" passed! Amazing!

However, why wasn't this the
case with Klemp? Is this why
Klemp doesn't give his birthdate?

Really, if Klemp is all that he
claims to be (as the Mahanta)
and is a more advanced Soul
than Twitchell.... Why wasn't
HK, too, born on Oct. 22 as
an announcement to the Modern
Day world of a "new beginning"
with a Modern Day Prophet
who was born to "harvest"
Souls?

The truth is that Twitchell took
material (dogma) from various
religions, mostly Radhasoami,
and altered it to fit-in with the
Western "New Age" mind-set.
And, PT, created the Rod of ECK
Power as a birthday present to
himself! For his EK spin to work,
as an ancient lineage, he, also,
had to create Rebazar, the Torchbearer,
and later (1969) the Mahanta
position... higher than any other
"Master" including Kirpal Singh!

However, much of this Radhasoami/
Ruhani Satsang dogma is flawed!
The "living master" concept, as
well as, the "spiritual hierarchy"
are negative lower plane concepts
and are, thus, limiting via overseers
who are never wrong and are never
to be doubted. In Eckankar these
"Masters" sometimes "throw rocks"
at one another and make threats
to those under them when they
chose to leave the religion after
their 2nd initiation! After all, this
is why one is supposed to wait
and study for two years before
requesting the EK 2nd initiation.

PT sought control by adding more
limitations with a Dozen Initiations.
However, this was counterproductive
and is, thus, Not conducive to acquiring
Spiritual Freedom and Self-Mastery
in THIS LIFETIME.

And, after all, How can Soul
EQUAL Soul (as Eckankar claims)
when Klemp has placed himself
high above others and beyond
reproach (like a Pope)! If Soul
equaled Soul Eckankar would be
a Democracy and the EK Board
would have real voting power.
The same goes for HK's RESAs
and his 8th and 9th initiates!
Equality in Eckankar is just
another EK illusion when Klemp
is the Top Dog and Life-Long
Mahanta.

The Bait and Switch and misdirection
that Klemp preaches in his simple-
minded one dimensional Seminar
stories (that cause people to fall
asleep and to second guess what
he meant by filling-in the blanks
with their imaginations) are intentional
because when the message is too
complex it creates more analytical
thought. Critical thinking is (silently)
forbidden in religions because followers
are expected to use faith and not
their minds. This is why "surrender"
and "service" are promoted so much.

Klemp has explained why his
talks (topics) are simple and take
different approaches according
to the level of consciousness of
the audience. This is the "Astral
Library" ekplanation. Still, when
this info is found, in the Astral
Library, this means that the
Vibratory Rate of the information/
topics Klemp imparts to his
audience Cannot Be Higher than
the ASTRAL Plane or else it could
Not remain in the Astral Library!
Duh!

Thus, it no wonder that Klemp's
Seminar talks are dumbed-down
since he's been taking these stories
from the Astral Library and/or the
second-hand distorted/embellished
dreams of lower initiates for 28 years!

And, early, this Sunday morning the
Seminar Eckists will gather together
for the HU Chant and focus upon their
6th ASTRAL Chakra (the Tisra Til) while
Not Directing the HU for good works
(health, wealth, world peace, the economy,
high initiations, etc.).

Prometheus

Those airmen stationed at Yokota A.B.
always find their way down to bar row.
Klemp was stationed at Yokota in 1967,
but doesn't say too much in his writings
about his misadventures and travels
downtown to Bar Row.

This (below) site mentions a bar, "The
Chicken Shack" (not to be confused
with the Chicken Ranch outside of Vegas).
Anyway, it reminded me of the "ECK
Henhouse" or "Chela Chicken/H.I. Fox"
story that Harry once spoke about.

BTW- The band playing here is called
"Save Our Soul" which is Golden-Tongued
Wisdom for ECKists to leave Eckankar,
now, in order to Save their Souls before
it's too late! "Pro se" is to have a fool
for a client. And, following Klemp for
30 plus years is to be fooled by a fool!

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=140&article=37575

Prometheus

Wanted to ask a question about the book
Introduction to ECKANKAR - one of the 1st
Eckankar books (1966) before The Tiger's
Fang in 1967.

It has to do with something that came up
on an A.R.E. thread by Doug Marman called:
New info on Paul from the 1950's.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/812cfe\
39e60f15b3?hl=en#

Doug mentioned about the note:

"He apparently wrote this letter to a
follower of Swami Premananda and talked
about moving back onto church grounds."

***

I suspect Kriya Yoga was not Radhasoami
& Paul was painting his new guru Kirpal
Singh in an unfavorable color to impress
the Premananda people. That's my guess.

Anyhow, my question is not about why he
(Paul) wrote about Kirpal Singh in the
letter the way he did. My question has
to do with the year when Paul Twitchell
claimed to have met Rebazar Tarzs in the
book Introduction to ECKANKAR. The same
info might be in the Compiled Writings
book, but I haven't found the quote yet.

In my last post on the A.R.E. thread I
quoted the Introduction from Dialogues
With The Master. The second paragraph
read:

This occurred while living in the nation's
capital. I had been in India for a month or
so prior to his first appearance. During
this visit I was fortunate to meet him in
Darjeeling, as explained in my book "An
Introduction to ECKANKAR."

This is talking about when Rebazar Tarzs
reportedly first appeared to dictate the
book Dialogues With The Master. IMO.

The writing of that manuscript appears to
have been 1956 - the year after Paul met,
or was initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955.

The fourth paragraph from the Intro. read:

The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as
possible to the original words he spoke
during his nightly visits to give me
advanced training in the secret science of
ECKANKAR. He concluded his series of talks
that year by taking me on the spiritual
journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's
Fang."

It looked (to me) like The Tiger's Fang
journey happened in the same year as
dictation for Dialogues. I don't know.
What I want to find out is the part of
the "story" where Paul says he was in
India prior to Rebazar's alleged dict-
ation of that book.

Paul says

"I had been in India for a month or so
prior to his first appearance."

and the location he calls Darjeeling.

(Maybe I can page search that word on my
timeline?)

"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in
the foothills of the Himalayas near Darj-
eeling. [Harold Klemp]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

Once again, the timeline doesn't appear to
fit. Neither does Paul's alleged time in
India - up until 1959 - when the failing
health of sister brought him home. There
was a trip to England somewhere amid all
of this too. I think Harold elaborated on
Paul's travels once.

"[....] In about 1959, Paul left Washington,
D.C., and moved to England. Six months later
he found out that his sister Kay-Dee (Kate)
was dying of an incurable illness. He immed-
iately returned home to Paducah, Kentucky,
and stayed with her for the final two months
of her life. [....]"

[Based on: Article (Research on Paul's Life)

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html#training

Excerpted from Cloak of Consciousness, Mahanta
Transcripts, Book 5

Here is how Paul Twitchell apparently put it:

"After I withdrew from a Yoga retreat in 1955,
I went off to India for a spell. Following this
I settled in England to write another book, but
the death of my half-sister brought me home."

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross,
p. 144]

BTW, The Tiger's Fang (2nd page of chapter
one) has Paul laying down in a hotel room
in Srinagar. Afterward he reportedly awoke
in the Soul Body - and the story begins.

There was something about Darjeeling from
the Compiled Writings. I don't know if it's
the same reference in Into to Eckankar.

"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar
Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
reputed to be over five hundred years old,
and was at the time living in the foothills
between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere,
but presently has a small abode in the Hindu
Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir
frontier, near Tibet. [....]"

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T.
Gross), p. 32]

*****************************************

I know that post was "all over the place"
and not very much to the point. To simplify
it, I'm looking at the "stories" told by
Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman &
others in order to establish a credible
timeline that appears to jive with reality
and not fiction.

Etznab

P.S. My "hunch" is that most of the people
(including Sudar & Kirpal Singh) who came
to visit Paul Twitchell were possibly just
his imagination, his dreams, or his higher
self taking various forms. Not the "bodies"
of those he claimed came to visit.

I'm going to quote the entire Introduction from
Dialogues With The Master and illustrate the
context for the words I tried to interpret.

INTRODUCTION


    DIALOGUES WITH THE MASTER are a series of spiritual
discourses which were taken down when Rebazar Tarzs, the
ageless emissary for ECKANKAR in the world today, appeared
to me nightly in his light body for practically one year and dict-
ated them.
    This occurred while living in the nation's capital. I had been
in India for a month or so prior to his first appearance. During
this visit I was fortunate to meet him in Darjeeling, as explained
in my book "An Introduction to ECKANKAR."
    Rebazar Tarzs lives in a small hut in the wild and remote
Hindu Kush mountains on the Kashmir-Afghanistan border. He
leaves his physical body there and appears in light form, the
Nuri Sarup, to many throughout the world who have some line
with ECK. It is said that he was a young man when Columbus
discovered America, but to the eye he looks to be in his early
forties.
    The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as possible to
the original words he spoke during his nightly visits to give me
advanced training in the secret science of ECKANKAR. He con-
cluded his series of talks that year by taking me on the spiritual
journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's Fang."
    How one accepts these DIALOGUES depends on his attitude
and training which has gone into his spiritual unfoldment during
his past incarnations spent in this world.
    It is the greatest spiritual adventure of one's life to have an
ECK Master like Rebazar Tarzs as a Guru. I have been more
than blessed.


[The Introduction is signed: Paul Twitchell]


*************************************************************************
*
In the second paragraph I assumed Paul Twitchell
was talking about Rebazar Tarzs' "first appearance"
concerning the dictation of the book. However, is it
possible he was referring to Rebazar Tarzs' "first
appearance" ever? In Darjeeling in 1951?

What does it look like to you?

In the fourth paragraph I assumed The Tiger's Fang
journey took place during the same year (Paul says
"for practically one year") as the series of discourses
for Dialogues With The Master. What did Paul mean
by "He concluded his series of talks that year by tak-
ing me on the spiritual journey recorded in my book
"The Tiger's Fang."

(And why the hell would he attribute that Journey to
Kirpal Singh prior to the publishing of Dialogues in
1970?)

Dialogues With The Master has a 1970 copyright -
which (to me) seems odd if it recounts events that
happened before The Tiger's Fang published in 1967.
Also curious is the number of times The Tiger's Fang
appears in italics, or quotation marks when mentioned
in writings by Eckankar and others. What is the reason
for doing that? Because it's referring not necessarily to
the 1967 book, but the earlier manuscript? Paul uses
quotation marks for the name of the book in his Intro.
to Dialogues With The Master. If that was the title of
the book ... why the quotation marks?

It would be interesting (IMO) to determine what Paul
Twitchell was saying in that Introduction, exactly.

On the back cover for Dialogues with the Master, the
first sentence reads: "The contents of this book was
the first real study of the works of ECKANKAR which
I did a number of years ago. [....]. (8th Printing 1983)

If the manuscript for "Dialogues" was written in 1956 -
even before the journey recorded in The Tiger's Fang -
(manuscript believed to be written in 1957) wouldn't it
be key to look at the year 1955 (and before) to make
heads or tales out of "who", or "what" was Rebazar
Tarzs?

The first meeting appears to be India, summer 1951.
That is disputable. IMO.

Here I take a look at what is probably indisputable
evidence of Paul Twitchell's whereabouts in 1950s.

"In 1950, Paul Twitchell and his wife, Camille Ballowe,
joined the Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism
in Washington, D.C."

[Based on: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 2]

In 1950 he and his wife joined the Self-Revelation
Church of Absolute Monism in Washington, D.C.
(a subgroup of the Self-Realization Fellowship).
This group was led by Swami Premananda also
referred to as Sudar Singh in Twitchell's later writ-
ings. Following his departure from the Self-Revel-
ation compound in 1955, Paul Twitchell and his
wife separated. He then joined up with Kirpal Singh,
the founder of the Ruhani Satsang, a branch of the
Radhasoami tradition."

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/ecka.html

Question: WOULDN"T A PERSON'S WIFE KNOW
IT IF THEIR HUSBAND TRAVELED TO INDIA ONE
YEAR AFTER THEY JOINED A CHURCH IN D.C.?

From A.R.E. post by Doug Marman:

[....] What I found was that Paul lived on Self-Revelation
Church grounds from 1950 to 1955," I said to Roy. "Both
David Lane and I have found facts to verify this. He was
living there with his wife at the time, but he was kicked
out in 1955 after he got into a fight with another disciple
of Premananda's. I describe this in my book. Paul claimed
that the other fellow started it, but he punched Paul through
a screen door and damaged Paul's eye. Paul was kicked
out at the time, but his wife stayed behind. This was when
Paul and his first wife separated.   [....]"

[Based on: A.R.E. Post by Doug Marman (Conversation
with Roy Eugene Davis, September 14, 2007.) Sept. 22nd,
7:54 p.m.]

Doug recently posted new information about Paul from
the 1950s. Including:

"He apparently wrote this letter to a follower of Swami
Premananda and talked about moving back onto church
grounds."

Gee, I wonder why he would want to do that? Because
his wife "stayed behind"? (I don't know. I'm guessing.)

Here is another reference to 1950. For what it's worth.

"The same Premananda soon became Paul Twitchell’s
first spiritual teacher—initiating him into kriya yoga—
around 1950, before the latter’s leaving to follow Kirpal
Singh. Twitchell went on to found the Eckankar movement,
with 'tens of thousands of followers through the Western
world' (Rawlinson, 1997). His authorized biography was
later penned by the prolific New Age author Brad Steiger.
[....]"

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/yogananda.asp

That account was what partly what had me thinking
why Paul would "denounce" Kirpal Singh as his guru
in 1957. I mean, can you be a member of, or live on
Premananda church grounds when you follow another
guru? Maybe you can. I suspect lots of people lived
on that compound. However, now that I see his wife
"stayed behind" there I think it suggests another po-
tential reason for his wanting to move back there. I
don't know for sure.

At any rate, wouldn't Paul's wife, maybe somebody
at the compound, know if Paul Twitchell traveled to
India in 1951? Was he really that detached from the
people around him they wouldn't notice him missing?
Wouldn't he have spoken about the trip? And about
Rebazar Tarzs (later on with people) if he met him
there?

Maybe this was a secret "inner journey" to India?
Or a case where Paul bilocated and was in two
places at the same time? Operating another body
:):):) Somebody should be able to verify that Paul
did, in fact, travel to India. His stories (IMO) make
it sound like he went there in the physical.

Paul says:

"[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan
lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard
much from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] It
was a hot summer afternoon in 1951. [....]"

Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32]

Paul was allegedly doing PR work for Scientology and
others around the time. Do any of them remember this
trip to India?

Hubbard might recount a trip by Paul T. to England in
1959 - I suspect - because Hubbard was, apparently,
there in 1959 too!

"[....] In 1959, Mr. Hubbard and his family moved to England,
where he purchased Saint Hill Manor in East Grinstead,
Sussex. This was to be his home for the next seven years,
and the worldwide headquarters of the Church of Scientology.
[....]"

http://lron.hubbard.org/pg011.html

Where is the physical record of a trip by Paul Twitchell
to India in 1951? I might have missed it. Can someone
point it out? Maybe I can present this question to mem-
bers at A.R.E. and they would know?

I can't absolutely use everything written down in words
as a record of the truth, especially since fiction is put
into words, too. What I am trying to do is tell the differ-
ence. IMO there is a difference when people are talking
about fiction vs. non-fiction books. In a fiction book you
can make up whatever you want and it doesn't have to
be true. That is different, however, from what is basically
considered non-fiction (Which I assume are about real
living people. Not fairy tale characters. Etc.).

I'll get back with you about any non-fiction physical
records and evidence for a trip by Paul Twitchell to
India in 1951. Maybe there is something in Doug M.
book The Whole Truth that I overlooked. I'll go back
and read the years 1950-1960 and see what I find.

Etznab








-----Original Message-----
From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Oct 24, 2009 11:38 am
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Paul in India?

 








Wanted to ask a question about the book

Introduction to ECKANKAR - one of the 1st

Eckankar books (1966) before The Tiger's

Fang in 1967.



It has to do with something that came up

on an A.R.E. thread by Doug Marman called:

New info on Paul from the 1950's.



http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/812cfe\
39e60f15b3?hl=en#



Doug mentioned about the note:



"He apparently wrote this letter to a

follower of Swami Premananda and talked

about moving back onto church grounds."



***



I suspect Kriya Yoga was not Radhasoami

& Paul was painting his new guru Kirpal

Singh in an unfavorable color to impress

the Premananda people. That's my guess.



Anyhow, my question is not about why he

(Paul) wrote about Kirpal Singh in the

letter the way he did. My question has

to do with the year when Paul Twitchell

claimed to have met Rebazar Tarzs in the

book Introduction to ECKANKAR. The same

info might be in the Compiled Writings

book, but I haven't found the quote yet.



In my last post on the A.R.E. thread I

quoted the Introduction from Dialogues

With The Master. The second paragraph

read:



This occurred while living in the nation's

capital. I had been in India for a month or

so prior to his first appearance. During

this visit I was fortunate to meet him in

Darjeeling, as explained in my book "An

Introduction to ECKANKAR."



This is talking about when Rebazar Tarzs

reportedly first appeared to dictate the

book Dialogues With The Master. IMO.



The writing of that manuscript appears to

have been 1956 - the year after Paul met,

or was initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955.



The fourth paragraph from the Intro. read:



The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as

possible to the original words he spoke

during his nightly visits to give me

advanced training in the secret science of

ECKANKAR. He concluded his series of talks

that year by taking me on the spiritual

journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's

Fang."



It looked (to me) like The Tiger's Fang

journey happened in the same year as

dictation for Dialogues. I don't know.

What I want to find out is the part of

the "story" where Paul says he was in

India prior to Rebazar's alleged dict-

ation of that book.



Paul says



"I had been in India for a month or so

prior to his first appearance."



and the location he calls Darjeeling.



(Maybe I can page search that word on my

timeline?)



"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in

the foothills of the Himalayas near Darj-

eeling. [Harold Klemp]



http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training



Once again, the timeline doesn't appear to

fit. Neither does Paul's alleged time in

India - up until 1959 - when the failing

health of sister brought him home. There

was a trip to England somewhere amid all

of this too. I think Harold elaborated on

Paul's travels once.



"[....] In about 1959, Paul left Washington,

D.C., and moved to England. Six months later

he found out that his sister Kay-Dee (Kate)

was dying of an incurable illness. He immed-

iately returned home to Paducah, Kentucky,

and stayed with her for the final two months

of her life. [....]"



[Based on: Article (Research on Paul's Life)



http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html#training



Excerpted from Cloak of Consciousness, Mahanta

Transcripts, Book 5



Here is how Paul Twitchell apparently put it:



"After I withdrew from a Yoga retreat in 1955,

I went off to India for a spell. Following this

I settled in England to write another book, but

the death of my half-sister brought me home."



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,

Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross,

p. 144]



BTW, The Tiger's Fang (2nd page of chapter

one) has Paul laying down in a hotel room

in Srinagar. Afterward he reportedly awoke

in the Soul Body - and the story begins.



There was something about Darjeeling from

the Compiled Writings. I don't know if it's

the same reference in Into to Eckankar.



"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar

Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was

reputed to be over five hundred years old,

and was at the time living in the foothills

between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere,

but presently has a small abode in the Hindu

Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir

frontier, near Tibet. [....]"



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume

1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T.

Gross), p. 32]



*****************************************



I know that post was "all over the place"

and not very much to the point. To simplify

it, I'm looking at the "stories" told by

Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman &

others in order to establish a credible

timeline that appears to jive with reality

and not fiction.



Etznab



P.S. My "hunch" is that most of the people

(including Sudar & Kirpal Singh) who came

to visit Paul Twitchell were possibly just

his imagination, his dreams, or his higher

self taking various forms. Not the "bodies"

of those he claimed came to visit.

Hi Etznab,
Paul never was in India or Paris, France
prior to late 1960's or 1970. When PT
talks of going to India it was just after
his visit with his step or half or real
sister when she was studying art in
Paris (Kentucky). Thus this trip to India
was a lie.

As for the letter to the Swami Premananda
follower... Paul was flip-flopping and unsure
of himself. He was probably broke and
needed a place to stay.

It also seems like this Premananda thing
was before he met Gail and closer to the
time that he was with his first wife while
at the ashram. Didn't PT go to Florida to
heal after his ashram fight?

Paul obviously changed his mind about
Kirpal since he had Gail initiated by him
and since he was communicating with
Kirpal  concerning The Tiger's Fang. After
all, it seems Paul had dedicated the book
to him before their falling out. And, it
seems that this was a rather positive
and inspiring ten year (1955-1965)
spiritual experience for Paul.

BTW- Kirpal created his own sect called
Ruhani Satsang and this is what Paul
followed versus Radhasoami. As far as
I know the only main difference
between the two sects are the two living
Masters each follow. Perhaps this is how
PT got the idea of creating his own sect.
Of course, Paul, also, had L. Ron as an
example of a Westerner creating a New
Age religion.

Actually, all of this "history" is merely
showing the lies and misdirection Paul
told and used about Paris and India and
the meeting with Rebazar and of Sudar
etc., etc.

And, we know that Paul had read and
copied passages from The Path of the
Masters and used this Sant Mat living
Master dogma to create Eckankar.

So, what's left to figure out? It's all
rather moot anyway... right!

Prometheus
p.s. "Sudar" never "visited" Twit...
this was Kirpal Singh. Sudar was
a fictional character like Rebazar.



etznab wrote:

Wanted to ask a question about the book
Introduction to ECKANKAR - one of the 1st
Eckankar books (1966) before The Tiger's
Fang in 1967.

It has to do with something that came up
on an A.R.E. thread by Doug Marman called:
New info on Paul from the 1950's.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/812cfe\
\
39e60f15b3?hl=en#

Doug mentioned about the note:

"He apparently wrote this letter to a
follower of Swami Premananda and talked
about moving back onto church grounds."

***

I suspect Kriya Yoga was not Radhasoami
& Paul was painting his new guru Kirpal
Singh in an unfavorable color to impress
the Premananda people. That's my guess.

Anyhow, my question is not about why he
(Paul) wrote about Kirpal Singh in the
letter the way he did. My question has
to do with the year when Paul Twitchell
claimed to have met Rebazar Tarzs in the
book Introduction to ECKANKAR. The same
info might be in the Compiled Writings
book, but I haven't found the quote yet.

In my last post on the A.R.E. thread I
quoted the Introduction from Dialogues
With The Master. The second paragraph
read:

This occurred while living in the nation's
capital. I had been in India for a month or
so prior to his first appearance. During
this visit I was fortunate to meet him in
Darjeeling, as explained in my book "An
Introduction to ECKANKAR."

This is talking about when Rebazar Tarzs
reportedly first appeared to dictate the
book Dialogues With The Master. IMO.

The writing of that manuscript appears to
have been 1956 - the year after Paul met,
or was initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955.

The fourth paragraph from the Intro. read:

The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as
possible to the original words he spoke
during his nightly visits to give me
advanced training in the secret science of
ECKANKAR. He concluded his series of talks
that year by taking me on the spiritual
journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's
Fang."

It looked (to me) like The Tiger's Fang
journey happened in the same year as
dictation for Dialogues. I don't know.
What I want to find out is the part of
the "story" where Paul says he was in
India prior to Rebazar's alleged dict-
ation of that book.

Paul says

"I had been in India for a month or so
prior to his first appearance."

and the location he calls Darjeeling.

(Maybe I can page search that word on my
timeline?)

"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in
the foothills of the Himalayas near Darj-
eeling. [Harold Klemp]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

Once again, the timeline doesn't appear to
fit. Neither does Paul's alleged time in
India - up until 1959 - when the failing
health of sister brought him home. There
was a trip to England somewhere amid all
of this too. I think Harold elaborated on
Paul's travels once.

"[....] In about 1959, Paul left Washington,
D.C., and moved to England. Six months later
he found out that his sister Kay-Dee (Kate)
was dying of an incurable illness. He immed-
iately returned home to Paducah, Kentucky,
and stayed with her for the final two months
of her life. [....]"

[Based on: Article (Research on Paul's Life)

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html#training

Excerpted from Cloak of Consciousness, Mahanta
Transcripts, Book 5

Here is how Paul Twitchell apparently put it:

"After I withdrew from a Yoga retreat in 1955,
I went off to India for a spell. Following this
I settled in England to write another book, but
the death of my half-sister brought me home."

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross,
p. 144]

BTW, The Tiger's Fang (2nd page of chapter
one) has Paul laying down in a hotel room
in Srinagar. Afterward he reportedly awoke
in the Soul Body - and the story begins.

There was something about Darjeeling from
the Compiled Writings. I don't know if it's
the same reference in Into to Eckankar.

"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar
Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
reputed to be over five hundred years old,
and was at the time living in the foothills
between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere,
but presently has a small abode in the Hindu
Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir
frontier, near Tibet. [....]"

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T.
Gross), p. 32]

*****************************************

I know that post was "all over the place"
and not very much to the point. To simplify
it, I'm looking at the "stories" told by
Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman &
others in order to establish a credible
timeline that appears to jive with reality
and not fiction.

Etznab

P.S. My "hunch" is that most of the people
(including Sudar & Kirpal Singh) who came
to visit Paul Twitchell were possibly just
his imagination, his dreams, or his higher
self taking various forms. Not the "bodies"
of those he claimed came to visit.

So, what's left to figure out? It's all
rather moot anyway... right!

Prometheus,

Umm, maybe not so much moot for me.
I still hear about Eck legends, myths &
other stories as if they are literally true.
I still see the words of other authors att-
ributed to Eck Masters. If I don't believe
everything as literally true then I need a
place to express that.

The things we talk about here are not so
much openly discussed in my Eck com-
munity. In fact, I would be afraid to talk
about and / or ask about there many of
the topics and questions I talk about, or
ask here.

It's been beneficial having the resources
of E.S.A. and other places on the Net to
draw from. Because I think people want
to talk about and discuss certain things,
what might not feel comfortable talking,
about and asking in church.

I don't think it's all made up, the research
& findings by David Lane and Ford Johnson.
I think a lot of their research is factual. At
the same time, I think, some Eckists they
only have to hear the name David Lane or
Ford Johnson and it's all they want to hear.
The same with E.S.A. and other sites that
are critical of Eckankar. I understand the
reason for animosity when a person feels
their religion is being attacked. Especially
when kids read about it.

Of course, some times it gets personal in
both directions on BBs and the like, but
facts are facts and they shouldn't change
according to who is mentioning them. It
should be OK to talk about Paul's writings
on Eckankar history and other things, IMO.
Not only here, but in church as well. After-
all, if you can't discuss dogma and history
at church ... where can you?

Umm... maybe that's why I continue to
follow these BBs. If I felt comfortable in
church discussing such things and had
others sincerely interested in researching
and discussing them I'd probably not be
spending so much time reading E.S.A.
and other places.

When I commented about that plagiarism
site and all the quotes, somebody wrote
to me and (in so many words) expressed
it was all a bunch of bunk and David L. is
full of crap.

Hmm... I felt the same way about David
Lane once. Wouldn't even read his stuff.
At the same time I really didn't know the
person. And I certainly hadn't researched
and checked out his information for myself.
Instead I believed the rumors I had heard.
In other words I was pre-judiced.

At one time I remember a saying that the
Eck masters love a person who wants to
have proof. Something along those lines.
So now I've asked about proof for reality
of Rebazar Tarzs & Paul Twitchell's visit
to meet him in India. I've asked it here &
at A.R.E.

Here I see it's not necessarily true all of
what Paul Twitchell wrote. However, the
other places I mentioned these things it
seems like I'm missing something. That
in some way it's still true what Paul said.
That's my impression, for the most part.

I feel like a foolish ping pong ball some-
times. All the while wondering why I put
myself through this back and forth game.

Has anybody here ever felt that way?

Etznab


Etznab



Hi Etznab,

Paul never was in India or Paris, France

prior to late 1960's or 1970. When PT

talks of going to India it was just after

his visit with his step or half or real

sister when she was studying art in

Paris (Kentucky). Thus this trip to India

was a lie.



As for the letter to the Swami Premananda

follower... Paul was flip-flopping and unsure

of himself. He was probably broke and

needed a place to stay.



It also seems like this Premananda thing

was before he met Gail and closer to the

time that he was with his first wife while

at the ashram. Didn't PT go to Florida to

heal after his ashram fight?



Paul obviously changed his mind about

Kirpal since he had Gail initiated by him

and since he was communicating with

Kirpal  concerning The Tiger's Fang. After

all, it seems Paul had dedicated the book

to him before their falling out. And, it

seems that this was a rather positive

and inspiring ten year (1955-1965)

spiritual experience for Paul.



BTW- Kirpal created his own sect called

Ruhani Satsang and this is what Paul

followed versus Radhasoami. As far as

I know the only main difference

between the two sects are the two living

Masters each follow. Perhaps this is how

PT got the idea of creating his own sect.

Of course, Paul, also, had L. Ron as an

example of a Westerner creating a New

Age religion.



Actually, all of this "history" is merely

showing the lies and misdirection Paul

told and used about Paris and India and

the meeting with Rebazar and of Sudar

etc., etc.



And, we know that Paul had read and

copied passages from The Path of the

Masters and used this Sant Mat living

Master dogma to create Eckankar.



So, what's left to figure out? It's all

rather moot anyway... right!



Prometheus

p.s. "Sudar" never "visited" Twit...

this was Kirpal Singh. Sudar was

a fictional character like Rebazar.



etznab wrote:



Wanted to ask a question about the book

Introduction to ECKANKAR - one of the 1st

Eckankar books (1966) before The Tiger's

Fang in 1967.



It has to do with something that came up

on an A.R.E. thread by Doug Marman called:

New info on Paul from the 1950's.



http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/812cfe\
\

39e60f15b3?hl=en#



Doug mentioned about the note:



"He apparently wrote this letter to a

follower of Swami Premananda and talked

about moving back onto church grounds."



***



I suspect Kriya Yoga was not Radhasoami

& Paul was painting his new guru Kirpal

Singh in an unfavorable color to impress

the Premananda people. That's my guess.



Anyhow, my question is not about why he

(Paul) wrote about Kirpal Singh in the

letter the way he did. My question has

to do with the year when Paul Twitchell

claimed to have met Rebazar Tarzs in the

book Introduction to ECKANKAR. The same

info might be in the Compiled Writings

book, but I haven't found the quote yet.



In my last post on the A.R.E. thread I

quoted the Introduction from Dialogues

With The Master. The second paragraph

read:



This occurred while living in the nation's

capital. I had been in India for a month or

so prior to his first appearance. During

this visit I was fortunate to meet him in

Darjeeling, as explained in my book "An

Introduction to ECKANKAR."



This is talking about when Rebazar Tarzs

reportedly first appeared to dictate the

book Dialogues With The Master. IMO.



The writing of that manuscript appears to

have been 1956 - the year after Paul met,

or was initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955.



The fourth paragraph from the Intro. read:



The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as

possible to the original words he spoke

during his nightly visits to give me

advanced training in the secret science of

ECKANKAR. He concluded his series of talks

that year by taking me on the spiritual

journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's

Fang."



It looked (to me) like The Tiger's Fang

journey happened in the same year as

dictation for Dialogues. I don't know.

What I want to find out is the part of

the "story" where Paul says he was in

India prior to Rebazar's alleged dict-

ation of that book.



Paul says



"I had been in India for a month or so

prior to his first appearance."



and the location he calls Darjeeling.



(Maybe I can page search that word on my

timeline?)



"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in

the foothills of the Himalayas near Darj-

eeling. [Harold Klemp]



http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training



Once again, the timeline doesn't appear to

fit. Neither does Paul's alleged time in

India - up until 1959 - when the failing

health of sister brought him home. There

was a trip to England somewhere amid all

of this too. I think Harold elaborated on

Paul's travels once.



"[....] In about 1959, Paul left Washington,

D.C., and moved to England. Six months later

he found out that his sister Kay-Dee (Kate)

was dying of an incurable illness. He immed-

iately returned home to Paducah, Kentucky,

and stayed with her for the final two months

of her life. [....]"



[Based on: Article (Research on Paul's Life)



http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html#training



Excerpted from Cloak of Consciousness, Mahanta

Transcripts, Book 5



Here is how Paul Twitchell apparently put it:



"After I withdrew from a Yoga retreat in 1955,

I went off to India for a spell. Following this

I settled in England to write another book, but

the death of my half-sister brought me home."



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,

Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross,

p. 144]



BTW, The Tiger's Fang (2nd page of chapter

one) has Paul laying down in a hotel room

in Srinagar. Afterward he reportedly awoke

in the Soul Body - and the story begins.



There was something about Darjeeling from

the Compiled Writings. I don't know if it's

the same reference in Into to Eckankar.



"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar

Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was

reputed to be over five hundred years old,

and was at the time living in the foothills

between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere,

but presently has a small abode in the Hindu

Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir

frontier, near Tibet. [....]"



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume

1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T.

Gross), p. 32]



*****************************************



I know that post was "all over the place"

and not very much to the point. To simplify

it, I'm looking at the "stories" told by

Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman &

others in order to establish a credible

timeline that appears to jive with reality

and not fiction.



Etznab



P.S. My "hunch" is that most of the people

(including Sudar & Kirpal Singh) who came

to visit Paul Twitchell were possibly just

his imagination, his dreams, or his higher

self taking various forms. Not the "bodies"

of those he claimed came to visit.

Hello Etznab,
When I say it's all "moot" I meant
this about the back-and-forth
discussion about PT's plagiarism
and lies. It's a proven fact that
Twitchell was a liar and a plagiarist
who created his own Mastership,
masters, and religion regardless
of the spin that Klemp and Marman
or their groupies/goonies put on
it. They can twist things around
and attempt to confuse the issues
as much as possible but they can't
deny the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang
dogma that Twitchell made his own
via Eckankar.

Klemp's damage control claim was/is
that Twit took the best and/or highest
truth from all religions in order to
create Eckankar. Thus, HK describes
Twitchell as being a "complier." On
the surface the plagiarisms are made
to seem that Twit did us all a big favor
and saved us years of research time.
Apparently, Paul, an unethical sci-fi
writer, was the best person to "compile"
this religious "truth" for us. However,
how is it that Eckankar is so "ancient"
when it needed "compiled" by PT?
And, why didn't Rebazar "compile"
these truth teachings for Eckankar
in 500 years? What was he doing
all this time... drinking yak milk?

However, even if Eckankar was
true (which it isn't) this would
still mean that, at the most,
ECKankar is a hodge-podge
of 4th Mental Plane Religious
beliefs. According to Klemp's
own definition in his Autobiography
(pg.385) all religions are of either
the 2nd or 4th Plane. Thus, the
"compiled" teachings of Eckankar
are 4th Mental Plane at best, and
come under the same influence
of the KAL (i.e. Satan or the Devil)!

Therefore, how can the EK teachings
that Twit "compiled" really be the
highest... just because he says so!
Why is that?

Thus, Paul had to make himself
more than he was in order to be
believed and followed. This is why
he created the invisible and
imaginary Rebazar. Now everyone
had the opportunity to see him
in their dreams and this gave Paul's
teachings more believability.

Except, no one could have dreams
with Rebazar that out-did PT's.
Thus, Twitchell gave himself the
highest initiation possible via RT.
And, this made PT the only "designated
person" who could perform more
cherished initiations. This is why
Klemp Does Not allow any chela
to dream of  holding the Rod of
ECK Power. All of these "Rod" dreams
are forbidden to have, or to speak
of, unless, a chela wants to be
demoted.

Also, PT's "compiling" process was
both limited and bias. Twit used
libraries and borrowed a limited
selection of books with the opinions
and edited translations of others.
Twitchell was, also, influenced by
Sant Mat since he was an off-and-
on disciple of Kirpal Singh for ten
years. This is why PT told his followers
to choose one path or the other
and that one can't have one foot
in one canoe and the other foot
in another canoe.

And, let's take a second look at
the uniqueness and importance
of having a "living" Master (for a
chela's lifetime) and how Eckankar's
"living (eck) Master" differs from
Twitchell's Ruhani Satsang Master
Kirpal Singh. There really is no
measurable difference or that of
having a living Pope! All of these
religious teachings are limited to
the lower planes, and the Mental/
Etheric Plane's imagination. Besides,
why doesn't Eckankar take their
"Soul equals Soul" concept seriously?
Why is one so much "higher" and
so much more important that they
can judge the consciousness of
others?

Prometheus


etznab wrote:
>
> So, what's left to figure out? It's all
> rather moot anyway... right!
>
> Prometheus,
>
> Umm, maybe not so much moot for me.
> I still hear about Eck legends, myths &
> other stories as if they are literally true.
> I still see the words of other authors att-
> ributed to Eck Masters. If I don't believe
> everything as literally true then I need a
> place to express that.
>
> The things we talk about here are not so
> much openly discussed in my Eck com-
> munity. In fact, I would be afraid to talk
> about and / or ask about there many of
> the topics and questions I talk about, or
> ask here.
>
> It's been beneficial having the resources
> of E.S.A. and other places on the Net to
> draw from. Because I think people want
> to talk about and discuss certain things,
> what might not feel comfortable talking,
> about and asking in church.
>
> I don't think it's all made up, the research
> & findings by David Lane and Ford Johnson.
> I think a lot of their research is factual. At
> the same time, I think, some Eckists they
> only have to hear the name David Lane or
> Ford Johnson and it's all they want to hear.
> The same with E.S.A. and other sites that
> are critical of Eckankar. I understand the
> reason for animosity when a person feels
> their religion is being attacked. Especially
> when kids read about it.
>
> Of course, some times it gets personal in
> both directions on BBs and the like, but
> facts are facts and they shouldn't change
> according to who is mentioning them. It
> should be OK to talk about Paul's writings
> on Eckankar history and other things, IMO.
> Not only here, but in church as well. After-
> all, if you can't discuss dogma and history
> at church ... where can you?
>
> Umm... maybe that's why I continue to
> follow these BBs. If I felt comfortable in
> church discussing such things and had
> others sincerely interested in researching
> and discussing them I'd probably not be
> spending so much time reading E.S.A.
> and other places.
>
> When I commented about that plagiarism
> site and all the quotes, somebody wrote
> to me and (in so many words) expressed
> it was all a bunch of bunk and David L. is
> full of crap.
>
> Hmm... I felt the same way about David
> Lane once. Wouldn't even read his stuff.
> At the same time I really didn't know the
> person. And I certainly hadn't researched
> and checked out his information for myself.
> Instead I believed the rumors I had heard.
> In other words I was pre-judiced.
>
> At one time I remember a saying that the
> Eck masters love a person who wants to
> have proof. Something along those lines.
> So now I've asked about proof for reality
> of Rebazar Tarzs & Paul Twitchell's visit
> to meet him in India. I've asked it here &
> at A.R.E.
>
> Here I see it's not necessarily true all of
> what Paul Twitchell wrote. However, the
> other places I mentioned these things it
> seems like I'm missing something. That
> in some way it's still true what Paul said.
> That's my impression, for the most part.
>
> I feel like a foolish ping pong ball some-
> times. All the while wondering why I put
> myself through this back and forth game.
>
> Has anybody here ever felt that way?
>
> Etznab

Hi Etznab,
Paul never was in India or Paris, France
prior to late 1960's or 1970. When PT
talks of going to India it was just after
his visit with his step or half or real
sister when she was studying art in
Paris (Kentucky). Thus this trip to India
was a lie.

As for the letter to the Swami Premananda
follower... Paul was flip-flopping and unsure
of himself. He was probably broke and
needed a place to stay.

It also seems like this Premananda thing
was before he met Gail and closer to the
time that he was with his first wife while
at the ashram. Didn't PT go to Florida to
heal after his ashram fight?

Paul obviously changed his mind about
Kirpal since he had Gail initiated by him
and since he was communicating with
Kirpal concerning The Tiger's Fang. After
all, it seems Paul had dedicated the book
to him before their falling out. And, it
seems that this was a rather positive
and inspiring ten year (1955-1965)
spiritual experience for Paul.

BTW- Kirpal created his own sect called
Ruhani Satsang and this is what Paul
followed versus Radhasoami. As far as
I know the only main difference
between the two sects are the two living
Masters each follow. Perhaps this is how
PT got the idea of creating his own sect.
Of course, Paul, also, had L. Ron as an
example of a Westerner creating a New
Age religion.

Actually, all of this "history" is merely
showing the lies and misdirection Paul
told and used about Paris and India and
the meeting with Rebazar and of Sudar
etc., etc.

And, we know that Paul had read and
copied passages from The Path of the
Masters and used this Sant Mat living
Master dogma to create Eckankar.

So, what's left to figure out? It's all
rather moot anyway... right!

Prometheus
p.s. "Sudar" never "visited" Twit...
this was Kirpal Singh. Sudar was
a fictional character like Rebazar.



etznab wrote:

Wanted to ask a question about the book
Introduction to ECKANKAR - one of the 1st
Eckankar books (1966) before The Tiger's
Fang in 1967.

It has to do with something that came up
on an A.R.E. thread by Doug Marman called:
New info on Paul from the 1950's.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/812cfe\
\
\
39e60f15b3?hl=en#

Doug mentioned about the note:

"He apparently wrote this letter to a
follower of Swami Premananda and talked
about moving back onto church grounds."

***

I suspect Kriya Yoga was not Radhasoami
& Paul was painting his new guru Kirpal
Singh in an unfavorable color to impress
the Premananda people. That's my guess.

Anyhow, my question is not about why he
(Paul) wrote about Kirpal Singh in the
letter the way he did. My question has
to do with the year when Paul Twitchell
claimed to have met Rebazar Tarzs in the
book Introduction to ECKANKAR. The same
info might be in the Compiled Writings
book, but I haven't found the quote yet.

In my last post on the A.R.E. thread I
quoted the Introduction from Dialogues
With The Master. The second paragraph
read:

This occurred while living in the nation's
capital. I had been in India for a month or
so prior to his first appearance. During
this visit I was fortunate to meet him in
Darjeeling, as explained in my book "An
Introduction to ECKANKAR."

This is talking about when Rebazar Tarzs
reportedly first appeared to dictate the
book Dialogues With The Master. IMO.

The writing of that manuscript appears to
have been 1956 - the year after Paul met,
or was initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955.

The fourth paragraph from the Intro. read:

The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as
possible to the original words he spoke
during his nightly visits to give me
advanced training in the secret science of
ECKANKAR. He concluded his series of talks
that year by taking me on the spiritual
journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's
Fang."

It looked (to me) like The Tiger's Fang
journey happened in the same year as
dictation for Dialogues. I don't know.
What I want to find out is the part of
the "story" where Paul says he was in
India prior to Rebazar's alleged dict-
ation of that book.

Paul says

"I had been in India for a month or so
prior to his first appearance."

and the location he calls Darjeeling.

(Maybe I can page search that word on my
timeline?)

"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in
the foothills of the Himalayas near Darj-
eeling. [Harold Klemp]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

Once again, the timeline doesn't appear to
fit. Neither does Paul's alleged time in
India - up until 1959 - when the failing
health of sister brought him home. There
was a trip to England somewhere amid all
of this too. I think Harold elaborated on
Paul's travels once.

"[....] In about 1959, Paul left Washington,
D.C., and moved to England. Six months later
he found out that his sister Kay-Dee (Kate)
was dying of an incurable illness. He immed-
iately returned home to Paducah, Kentucky,
and stayed with her for the final two months
of her life. [....]"

[Based on: Article (Research on Paul's Life)

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html#training

Excerpted from Cloak of Consciousness, Mahanta
Transcripts, Book 5

Here is how Paul Twitchell apparently put it:

"After I withdrew from a Yoga retreat in 1955,
I went off to India for a spell. Following this
I settled in England to write another book, but
the death of my half-sister brought me home."

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,
Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross,
p. 144]

BTW, The Tiger's Fang (2nd page of chapter
one) has Paul laying down in a hotel room
in Srinagar. Afterward he reportedly awoke
in the Soul Body - and the story begins.

There was something about Darjeeling from
the Compiled Writings. I don't know if it's
the same reference in Into to Eckankar.

"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar
Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
reputed to be over five hundred years old,
and was at the time living in the foothills
between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere,
but presently has a small abode in the Hindu
Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir
frontier, near Tibet. [....]"

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume
1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T.
Gross), p. 32]

*****************************************

I know that post was "all over the place"
and not very much to the point. To simplify
it, I'm looking at the "stories" told by
Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman &
others in order to establish a credible
timeline that appears to jive with reality
and not fiction.

Etznab

P.S. My "hunch" is that most of the people
(including Sudar & Kirpal Singh) who came
to visit Paul Twitchell were possibly just
his imagination, his dreams, or his higher
self taking various forms. Not the "bodies"
of those he claimed came to visit.

> I feel like a foolish ping pong ball some-
> times. All the while wondering why I put
> myself through this back and forth game.
>
> Has anybody here ever felt that way?
>
> Etznab


Yep - but don't feel foolish about it.  I think it's called cognitive
dissonance.  When you're head's really spinning and you're going all cross-eyed
and ga-ga, get away from all this, wipe it from your mind, go take a walk in the
beautiful Autumn woods, hug a tree, puppies, or babies, rent a few good comedy
videos....try to do some "normal" things with "normal" people.

Oh, I just saw "Marley & Me" - wow, what a great movie!  Not your usual bad-pet
fluff.  I was very impressed.

I'm not one of those concrete-facts, linear-thinking timeline people.  I'm more
abstract, circular, and intuitive/instinctive.  Good grief, I have enough
trouble keeping track of today is!!  In fact, just a few days ago I had *no*
idea what the date was, so I clicked on the computer calendar because it would
be highlighted, well, what a shock, for awhile I really thought my computer
calendar must be a week off!!

In spite of that, in the beginning, there was just a whole heck of a lot of
Twitch's "facts" that just didn't seem right, they didn't seem to agree with
each other, and didn't seem to "fit".  And I had so many "inner nudges"....why
the heck didn't I listen?   Like, when he'd write about being in
India...something whispered that nope, he was NOT in India.  And lots of other
stuff.  I stifled.  I told myself that it was the Kal.  There were enough simple
stolen truths there to keep me hooked, and I gave ekult and its phony "master"
credit for my own experiences.  I *wanted* to believe!!

Hey, I appreciate your posting the intro to "DM", I haven't looked at my
eckstuff for so many years....but how can anyone be mistaken about what Twitch
wrote there?  Plain and simple, he said Reb was DICTATING it!!!!

Okay, this is a bad metaphor but it's what I just thought of.  If I took a sip
of grape koolaid and it tasted like almonds, I wouldn't want or need to finish
it, to "prove" it's arsenic.  When I finally really looked at Lane's material,
and the plagiarism examples, I didn't have to go get my own copy of "Path of the
Masters" and see for myself.  I woke up rather quickly.

So, for me, I didn't have to go over every little detail.  Twitch was a liar &
con artist.  *Nothing* he wrote has the least little bit of credibility.   And
Doug Marman doesn't have much credibility with me, either.  I saw enough of him
when I was an eckist, and he's downright creepy and slimy.  Twitch, well - he
was sort of a good-natured con artist.

BTW, I forget exactly what, but awhile back I read something Roy Evans had said
and I thought wait a minute, that's not true...I may have been wrong, but even
if it's something "anti-eck", you can't always totally believe some of those old
stories, take them with a grain of salt, even if they're saying what you'd like
to hear.

Anyway, I've been getting my lazy behind moving a bit more recently, it's quite
likely I'll soon be unpacking the eckstuff, I'll put a bit more extra effort
into finding "Intro", which I'm sure I have.  Oh - another thing I started some
years back that I'm sure is going to reveal a lot, is transcribing old
Twitch-tapes.  I've heard he messed up on them a lot, even forgetting his phony
master-names, etc.

Okay, gotta run!

Hugs,

Sharon

Hello All,

I have been a part of the community here for just a little while. But, I have
found most of the topics discussed here completely refreshing. Having been a
member of EK-ankar (intentional spelling) since the early 1970's, I have seen
many changes take place. I was a member of the clergy, an initiator, and a ESA
and took my duties very seriously. However, I now see that the culture of the
Path of Harry has become a thorn in the side of most rational folks that have
been with the path for a while. Thus, if one hasn't left the organization, he or
she wrestles with the thought of continuing. I don't think that Paul Twitchell
would condone the current direction of Harry's Way as it has lost all of the
thrill and excitement of the original organization. Instead it, as you have
mentioned or alluded to, has become a watered down version of Lutheranism.

However, I am grateful to Paul for having offered a version of Shabda Yoga (
Radha Soami, Surat Shab Yoga, etc ) for me to learn about this wonderful science
of realization via the Holy Life Stream. Sadly, it is the deception and
subterfuge that has been perpetuated by each of the Living Masters that makes
the path smell of falsity. However, the teachings themselves or the method of
realization is valid. It, not Ek-ankar, is an ancient method for achieving
realization as it will always be. Additionally, there is only ONE linking to the
Life Stream that is necessary. All other so called initiations are indeed a
method of maintaining 'client base' to support the organization's continuance.

Lastly, here is a question worth considering. Why is it that all of the other
variations of this teaching are clouded by each re-inventor's need to have come
up with something unique and rare. From, Ching Hai, Jerry Mulvin, John Roger
(among others)to Pauldarwinharold Twichellgrossklemp. All have come up with
extraodinary myths about the origin of their most perfect Paths to realization?
It's all the same 'Way' rehashed again and again. But for what? I honestly
believe it is so these folks can keep their jobs of being Supreme Masters and
wayshowers. LOL. It's really funny. But, religion is big business.

Ok, I know I had forgotten something. Why is it that Marge Klemp isn't spoken of
in the same way as Joan Klemp. Hasn't she served long enough and diligently
enough to have received Harry's 12th initiation?
She certainly has served the "EK" as much, maybe more. By the way, did Harry
mention his wife's ascendance to ECK Mastership at the World-wide as was
rumored?

Thanks for letting me introduce myself and thanks Promethius for this wonderful
forum.

zephrendhun

Prometheus,

I think I can see your point now
about the "moot" part.

Those were good questions, too.
From what I could tell.

Compiling words from books and
claiming they came from Masters
and people by other names is the
part I often wondered about. Was
that common back in the 60s? In
the guru movement? I don't know.
However, maintaining the words
are unique to Eckankar & others
are all somehow offshoots of it?
I think that is quite a stretch - in
some instances.

My guess is that fiction was inter-
woven into the fabric of so many
teachings and that this - probably
more than anything else - is what
makes for the uniqueness.

The combination of fiction and fact
is not so much the problem, IMO.
The problem is with not being able
to tell the difference! Some times
fiction is taken to be fact and fact
taken to be fiction, something that
can create a real mess.

I think it incumbent on people who
follow & preach religion to know the
difference between fiction and fact.
This includes myself, and is why I
have sought to clarify and be able
to tell the difference. Not everybody
I communicate with agree on which
is which. That leaves a lot of room
for personal investigation & research.
IMO.

Etznab





-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:40 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Twitchell, Premananda, &
Kirpal Singh

 






Hello Etznab,

When I say it's all "moot" I meant

this about the back-and-forth

discussion about PT's plagiarism

and lies. It's a proven fact that

Twitchell was a liar and a plagiarist

who created his own Mastership,

masters, and religion regardless

of the spin that Klemp and Marman

or their groupies/goonies put on

it. They can twist things around

and attempt to confuse the issues

as much as possible but they can't

deny the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang

dogma that Twitchell made his own

via Eckankar.



Klemp's damage control claim was/is

that Twit took the best and/or highest

truth from all religions in order to

create Eckankar. Thus, HK describes

Twitchell as being a "complier." On

the surface the plagiarisms are made

to seem that Twit did us all a big favor

and saved us years of research time.

Apparently, Paul, an unethical sci-fi

writer, was the best person to "compile"

this religious "truth" for us. However,

how is it that Eckankar is so "ancient"

when it needed "compiled" by PT?

And, why didn't Rebazar "compile"

these truth teachings for Eckankar

in 500 years? What was he doing

all this time... drinking yak milk?



However, even if Eckankar was

true (which it isn't) this would

still mean that, at the most,

ECKankar is a hodge-podge

of 4th Mental Plane Religious

beliefs. According to Klemp's

own definition in his Autobiography

(pg.385) all religions are of either

the 2nd or 4th Plane. Thus, the

"compiled" teachings of Eckankar

are 4th Mental Plane at best, and

come under the same influence

of the KAL (i.e. Satan or the Devil)!



Therefore, how can the EK teachings

that Twit "compiled" really be the

highest... just because he says so!

Why is that?



Thus, Paul had to make himself

more than he was in order to be

believed and followed. This is why

he created the invisible and

imaginary Rebazar. Now everyone

had the opportunity to see him

in their dreams and this gave Paul's

teachings more believability.



Except, no one could have dreams

with Rebazar that out-did PT's.

Thus, Twitchell gave himself the

highest initiation possible via RT.

And, this made PT the only "designated

person" who could perform more

cherished initiations. This is why

Klemp Does Not allow any chela

to dream of  holding the Rod of

ECK Power. All of these "Rod" dreams

are forbidden to have, or to speak

of, unless, a chela wants to be

demoted.



Also, PT's "compiling" process was

both limited and bias. Twit used

libraries and borrowed a limited

selection of books with the opinions

and edited translations of others.

Twitchell was, also, influenced by

Sant Mat since he was an off-and-

on disciple of Kirpal Singh for ten

years. This is why PT told his followers

to choose one path or the other

and that one can't have one foot

in one canoe and the other foot

in another canoe.



And, let's take a second look at

the uniqueness and importance

of having a "living" Master (for a

chela's lifetime) and how Eckankar's

"living (eck) Master" differs from

Twitchell's Ruhani Satsang Master

Kirpal Singh. There really is no

measurable difference or that of

having a living Pope! All of these

religious teachings are limited to

the lower planes, and the Mental/

Etheric Plane's imagination. Besides,

why doesn't Eckankar take their

"Soul equals Soul" concept seriously?

Why is one so much "higher" and

so much more important that they

can judge the consciousness of

others?



Prometheus





etznab wrote:

>

> So, what's left to figure out? It's all

> rather moot anyway... right!

>

> Prometheus,

>

> Umm, maybe not so much moot for me.

> I still hear about Eck legends, myths &

> other stories as if they are literally true.

> I still see the words of other authors att-

> ributed to Eck Masters. If I don't believe

> everything as literally true then I need a

> place to express that.

>

> The things we talk about here are not so

> much openly discussed in my Eck com-

> munity. In fact, I would be afraid to talk

> about and / or ask about there many of

> the topics and questions I talk about, or

> ask here.

>

> It's been beneficial having the resources

> of E.S.A. and other places on the Net to

> draw from. Because I think people want

> to talk about and discuss certain things,

> what might not feel comfortable talking,

> about and asking in church.

>

> I don't think it's all made up, the research

> & findings by David Lane and Ford Johnson.

> I think a lot of their research is factual. At

> the same time, I think, some Eckists they

> only have to hear the name David Lane or

> Ford Johnson and it's all they want to hear.

> The same with E.S.A. and other sites that

> are critical of Eckankar. I understand the

> reason for animosity when a person feels

> their religion is being attacked. Especially

> when kids read about it.

>

> Of course, some times it gets personal in

> both directions on BBs and the like, but

> facts are facts and they shouldn't change

> according to who is mentioning them. It

> should be OK to talk about Paul's writings

> on Eckankar history and other things, IMO.

> Not only here, but in church as well. After-

> all, if you can't discuss dogma and history

> at church ... where can you?

>

> Umm... maybe that's why I continue to

> follow these BBs. If I felt comfortable in

> church discussing such things and had

> others sincerely interested in researching

> and discussing them I'd probably not be

> spending so much time reading E.S.A.

> and other places.

>

> When I commented about that plagiarism

> site and all the quotes, somebody wrote

> to me and (in so many words) expressed

> it was all a bunch of bunk and David L. is

> full of crap.

>

> Hmm... I felt the same way about David

> Lane once. Wouldn't even read his stuff.

> At the same time I really didn't know the

> person. And I certainly hadn't researched

> and checked out his information for myself.

> Instead I believed the rumors I had heard.

> In other words I was pre-judiced.

>

> At one time I remember a saying that the

> Eck masters love a person who wants to

> have proof. Something along those lines.

> So now I've asked about proof for reality

> of Rebazar Tarzs & Paul Twitchell's visit

> to meet him in India. I've asked it here &

> at A.R.E.

>

> Here I see it's not necessarily true all of

> what Paul Twitchell wrote. However, the

> other places I mentioned these things it

> seems like I'm missing something. That

> in some way it's still true what Paul said.

> That's my impression, for the most part.

>

> I feel like a foolish ping pong ball some-

> times. All the while wondering why I put

> myself through this back and forth game.

>

> Has anybody here ever felt that way?

>

> Etznab



Hi Etznab,

Paul never was in India or Paris, France

prior to late 1960's or 1970. When PT

talks of going to India it was just after

his visit with his step or half or real

sister when she was studying art in

Paris (Kentucky). Thus this trip to India

was a lie.



As for the letter to the Swami Premananda

follower... Paul was flip-flopping and unsure

of himself. He was probably broke and

needed a place to stay.



It also seems like this Premananda thing

was before he met Gail and closer to the

time that he was with his first wife while

at the ashram. Didn't PT go to Florida to

heal after his ashram fight?



Paul obviously changed his mind about

Kirpal since he had Gail initiated by him

and since he was communicating with

Kirpal concerning The Tiger's Fang. After

all, it seems Paul had dedicated the book

to him before their falling out. And, it

seems that this was a rather positive

and inspiring ten year (1955-1965)

spiritual experience for Paul.



BTW- Kirpal created his own sect called

Ruhani Satsang and this is what Paul

followed versus Radhasoami. As far as

I know the only main difference

between the two sects are the two living

Masters each follow. Perhaps this is how

PT got the idea of creating his own sect.

Of course, Paul, also, had L. Ron as an

example of a Westerner creating a New

Age religion.



Actually, all of this "history" is merely

showing the lies and misdirection Paul

told and used about Paris and India and

the meeting with Rebazar and of Sudar

etc., etc.



And, we know that Paul had read and

copied passages from The Path of the

Masters and used this Sant Mat living

Master dogma to create Eckankar.



So, what's left to figure out? It's all

rather moot anyway... right!



Prometheus

p.s. "Sudar" never "visited" Twit...

this was Kirpal Singh. Sudar was

a fictional character like Rebazar.



etznab wrote:



Wanted to ask a question about the book

Introduction to ECKANKAR - one of the 1st

Eckankar books (1966) before The Tiger's

Fang in 1967.



It has to do with something that came up

on an A.R.E. thread by Doug Marman called:

New info on Paul from the 1950's.



http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/812cfe\
\

\

39e60f15b3?hl=en#



Doug mentioned about the note:



"He apparently wrote this letter to a

follower of Swami Premananda and talked

about moving back onto church grounds."



***



I suspect Kriya Yoga was not Radhasoami

& Paul was painting his new guru Kirpal

Singh in an unfavorable color to impress

the Premananda people. That's my guess.



Anyhow, my question is not about why he

(Paul) wrote about Kirpal Singh in the

letter the way he did. My question has

to do with the year when Paul Twitchell

claimed to have met Rebazar Tarzs in the

book Introduction to ECKANKAR. The same

info might be in the Compiled Writings

book, but I haven't found the quote yet.



In my last post on the A.R.E. thread I

quoted the Introduction from Dialogues

With The Master. The second paragraph

read:



This occurred while living in the nation's

capital. I had been in India for a month or

so prior to his first appearance. During

this visit I was fortunate to meet him in

Darjeeling, as explained in my book "An

Introduction to ECKANKAR."



This is talking about when Rebazar Tarzs

reportedly first appeared to dictate the

book Dialogues With The Master. IMO.



The writing of that manuscript appears to

have been 1956 - the year after Paul met,

or was initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955.



The fourth paragraph from the Intro. read:



The DIALOGUES in this book are as close as

possible to the original words he spoke

during his nightly visits to give me

advanced training in the secret science of

ECKANKAR. He concluded his series of talks

that year by taking me on the spiritual

journey recorded in my book "The Tiger's

Fang."



It looked (to me) like The Tiger's Fang

journey happened in the same year as

dictation for Dialogues. I don't know.

What I want to find out is the part of

the "story" where Paul says he was in

India prior to Rebazar's alleged dict-

ation of that book.



Paul says



"I had been in India for a month or so

prior to his first appearance."



and the location he calls Darjeeling.



(Maybe I can page search that word on my

timeline?)



"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in

the foothills of the Himalayas near Darj-

eeling. [Harold Klemp]



http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training



Once again, the timeline doesn't appear to

fit. Neither does Paul's alleged time in

India - up until 1959 - when the failing

health of sister brought him home. There

was a trip to England somewhere amid all

of this too. I think Harold elaborated on

Paul's travels once.



"[....] In about 1959, Paul left Washington,

D.C., and moved to England. Six months later

he found out that his sister Kay-Dee (Kate)

was dying of an incurable illness. He immed-

iately returned home to Paducah, Kentucky,

and stayed with her for the final two months

of her life. [....]"



[Based on: Article (Research on Paul's Life)



http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisSearch.html#training



Excerpted from Cloak of Consciousness, Mahanta

Transcripts, Book 5



Here is how Paul Twitchell apparently put it:



"After I withdrew from a Yoga retreat in 1955,

I went off to India for a spell. Following this

I settled in England to write another book, but

the death of my half-sister brought me home."



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1,

Paul Twitchell - Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross,

p. 144]



BTW, The Tiger's Fang (2nd page of chapter

one) has Paul laying down in a hotel room

in Srinagar. Afterward he reportedly awoke

in the Soul Body - and the story begins.



There was something about Darjeeling from

the Compiled Writings. I don't know if it's

the same reference in Into to Eckankar.



"[....] Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar

Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was

reputed to be over five hundred years old,

and was at the time living in the foothills

between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere,

but presently has a small abode in the Hindu

Kush mountains on the Afghanistan-Kashmir

frontier, near Tibet. [....]"



[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume

1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T.

Gross), p. 32]



*****************************************



I know that post was "all over the place"

and not very much to the point. To simplify

it, I'm looking at the "stories" told by

Paul Twitchell, Harold Klemp, Doug Marman &

others in order to establish a credible

timeline that appears to jive with reality

and not fiction.



Etznab



P.S. My "hunch" is that most of the people

(including Sudar & Kirpal Singh) who came

to visit Paul Twitchell were possibly just

his imagination, his dreams, or his higher

self taking various forms. Not the "bodies"

of those he claimed came to visit.

Sharon,

Thanks for the advice about taking time
out to do something normal. That is good
advice. Some days I will go almost the
whole day without going online, without
checking my e-mail or visiting A.R.E. I
find it helps (me) to take a break from
time to time. (I just hate it though when
the e-mail builds up from missing just
one day :)

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon <brighttigress@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:43 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Twitchell, Premananda, &
Kirpal Singh

 






> I feel like a foolish ping pong ball some-

> times. All the while wondering why I put

> myself through this back and forth game.

>

> Has anybody here ever felt that way?

>

> Etznab



Yep - but don't feel foolish about it.  I think it's called cognitive
dissonance.  When you're head's really spinning and you're going all
cross-eyed and ga-ga, get away from all this, wipe it from your mind,
go take a walk in the beautiful Autumn woods, hug a tree, puppies, or
babies, rent a few good comedy videos....try to do some "normal" things
with "normal" people.



Oh, I just saw "Marley & Me" - wow, what a great movie!  Not your usual
bad-pet fluff.  I was very impressed.



I'm not one of those concrete-facts, linear-thinking timeline people.
I'm more abstract, circular, and intuitive/instinctive.  Good grief, I
have enough trouble keeping track of today is!!  In fact, just a few
days ago I had *no* idea what the date was, so I clicked on the
computer calendar because it would be highlighted, well, what a shock,
for awhile I really thought my computer calendar must be a week off!!



In spite of that, in the beginning, there was just a whole heck of a
lot of Twitch's "facts" that just didn't seem right, they didn't seem
to agree with each other, and didn't seem to "fit".  And I had so many
"inner nudges"....why the heck didn't I listen?   Like, when he'd write
about being in India...something whispered that nope, he was NOT in
India.  And lots of other stuff.  I stifled.  I told myself that it was
the Kal.  There were enough simple stolen truths there to keep me
hooked, and I gave ekult and its phony "master" credit for my own
experiences.  I *wanted* to believe!!



Hey, I appreciate your posting the intro to "DM", I haven't looked at
my eckstuff for so many years....but how can anyone be mistaken about
what Twitch wrote there?  Plain and simple, he said Reb was DICTATING
it!!!!



Okay, this is a bad metaphor but it's what I just thought of.  If I
took a sip of grape koolaid and it tasted like almonds, I wouldn't want
or need to finish it, to "prove" it's arsenic.  When I finally really
looked at Lane's material, and the plagiarism examples, I didn't have
to go get my own copy of "Path of the Masters" and see for myself.  I
woke up rather quickly.



So, for me, I didn't have to go over every little detail.  Twitch was a
liar & con artist.  *Nothing* he wrote has the least little bit of
credibility.   And Doug Marman doesn't have much credibility with me,
either.  I saw enough of him when I was an eckist, and he's downright
creepy and slimy.  Twitch, well - he was sort of a good-natured con
artist.



BTW, I forget exactly what, but awhile back I read something Roy Evans
had said and I thought wait a minute, that's not true...I may have been
wrong, but even if it's something "anti-eck", you can't always totally
believe some of those old stories, take them with a grain of salt, even
if they're saying what you'd like to hear.



Anyway, I've been getting my lazy behind moving a bit more recently,
it's quite likely I'll soon be unpacking the eckstuff, I'll put a bit
more extra effort into finding "Intro", which I'm sure I have.  Oh -
another thing I started some years back that I'm sure is going to
reveal a lot, is transcribing old Twitch-tapes.  I've heard he messed
up on them a lot, even forgetting his phony master-names, etc.



Okay, gotta run!



Hugs,



Sharon

























=

Some good questions there. IMO.

I was almost afraid to open the e-mail post
because it had a name I never saw before.
I thought it might be another anonymous
poster from hell (there's been some of that
going round lately). I was pleasantly sur-
prised to see you weren't one of them :)

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: zephrendhun <yichenzephrendhun@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:12 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Newcomer on the Scene....

 






Hello All,



I have been a part of the community here for just a little while. But,
I have found most of the topics discussed here completely refreshing.
Having been a member of EK-ankar (intentional spelling) since the early
1970's, I have seen many changes take place. I was a member of the
clergy, an initiator, and a ESA and took my duties very seriously.
However, I now see that the culture of the Path of Harry has become a
thorn in the side of most rational folks that have been with the path
for a while. Thus, if one hasn't left the organization, he or she
wrestles with the thought of continuing. I don't think that Paul
Twitchell would condone the current direction of Harry's Way as it has
lost all of the thrill and excitement of the original organization.
Instead it, as you have mentioned or alluded to, has become a watered
down version of Lutheranism.



However, I am grateful to Paul for having offered a version of Shabda
Yoga ( Radha Soami, Surat Shab Yoga, etc ) for me to learn about this
wonderful science of realization via the Holy Life Stream. Sadly, it is
the deception and subterfuge that has been perpetuated by each of the
Living Masters that makes the path smell of falsity. However, the
teachings themselves or the method of realization is valid. It, not
Ek-ankar, is an ancient method for achieving realization as it will
always be. Additionally, there is only ONE linking to the Life Stream
that is necessary. All other so called initiations are indeed a method
of maintaining 'client base' to support the organization's continuance.



Lastly, here is a question worth considering. Why is it that all of the
other variations of this teaching are clouded by each re-inventor's
need to have come up with something unique and rare. From, Ching Hai,
Jerry Mulvin, John Roger (among others)to Pauldarwinharold
Twichellgrossklemp. All have come up with extraodinary myths about the
origin of their most perfect Paths to realization? It's all the same
'Way' rehashed again and again. But for what? I honestly believe it is
so these folks can keep their jobs of being Supreme Masters and
wayshowers. LOL. It's really funny. But, religion is big business.



Ok, I know I had forgotten something. Why is it that Marge Klemp isn't
spoken of in the same way as Joan Klemp. Hasn't she served long enough
and diligently enough to have received Harry's 12th initiation?

She certainly has served the "EK" as much, maybe more. By the way, did
Harry mention his wife's ascendance to ECK Mastership at the World-wide
as was rumored?



Thanks for letting me introduce myself and thanks Promethius for this
wonderful forum.



zephrendhun

Hello Etznab and All,
One also has to take into account
that Paul stretched the truth often.
He needed to feel important and
have others view him with respect.

Have you ever known a liar or a
narcissist? I have and it's easy for
them to embellish the truth.

I was talking to a guy recently
about a professional athlete that
we both liked. I use to live near
him and would go to see him
play often. I could have easily
exaggerated and said that I had
met him or this and that, but
I didn't have the need to make
this person envy me or to make
myself feel important by becoming
a liar. For some people it can
become a fine line... truth or
fiction.

And, the best lies always have
some basis of truth while
becoming an indistinguishable
blend of both. This is what
Twitchell did (a blend) so that
his lies would be harder to
disprove completely and would/
could produce some doubt and
confusion involving facts and
the whole truth of the situation
etc. Besides, religion is mostly
a subjective experience that can
neither be proven nor disproven.
Can the existence of God be
proven or disproven? No! Not
really!

Anyway, that's, also, why mixing in
some myth helps too. Myth gives
a sense of history and a long complex
timeline. Thus, we have the "Polarians"
and the EK Garden of Eden with Adom
and Ede.

I think that Paul rationalized and
saw lying as making sport or joking
when he told/wrote stories by twisting
facts, and exaggerating the truth.
Thus, it was all in good hearted
fun and who did he hurt... nobody/
everybody? Except, early on he made
fools of those who believed him
by retelling his stories to others
who knew better and had more
common sense.

Later, after inventing Eckankar
PT fooled more and more people.
Again, who did he hurt? He hurt
those who trusted him and believed
that what he said was true, and he
took their money just like Klemp
does! And, more importantly, PT
& HK cause real harm by delaying
Soul on Its Journey to Truth.

Or, on the other hand, Eckankar
can be seen as a means of separating
the wheat from the chaff. One could
see Eckankar as a "test" for Soul
just as other religions are a test.

When one wakes up to the Truth
and sees that all religions are lies
Soul can then start to become Free!
Thus, the lies of religion are needed
as a KAL "test/trap" of purification
for Soul. Being able to see Truth
and beyond religious beliefs is a
"test" while religions are, themselves,
traps. Mentally and emotionally
weak people tend to need religion
and the weaker they are the stronger
is their religious belief. Also, those
Eckists who see themselves as "spiritually
evolved" aren't as long as they cling
to religious dogma like Eckankar's.
They are forever tied to lower plane
teachings that require an active
imagination and delusion to make
it work.

Prometheus

etznab wrote:
Prometheus,

I think I can see your point now
about the "moot" part.

Those were good questions, too.
From what I could tell.

Compiling words from books and
claiming they came from Masters
and people by other names is the
part I often wondered about. Was
that common back in the 60s? In
the guru movement? I don't know.
However, maintaining the words
are unique to Eckankar & others
are all somehow offshoots of it?
I think that is quite a stretch - in
some instances.

My guess is that fiction was inter-
woven into the fabric of so many
teachings and that this - probably
more than anything else - is what
makes for the uniqueness.

The combination of fiction and fact
is not so much the problem, IMO.
The problem is with not being able
to tell the difference! Some times
fiction is taken to be fact and fact
taken to be fiction, something that
can create a real mess.

I think it incumbent on people who
follow & preach religion to know the
difference between fiction and fact.
This includes myself, and is why I
have sought to clarify and be able
to tell the difference. Not everybody
I communicate with agree on which
is which. That leaves a lot of room
for personal investigation & research.
IMO.

Etznab


Prometheus wrote:

Hello Etznab,

When I say it's all "moot" I meant

this about the back-and-forth

discussion about PT's plagiarism

and lies. It's a proven fact that

Twitchell was a liar and a plagiarist

who created his own Mastership,

masters, and religion regardless

of the spin that Klemp and Marman

or their groupies/goonies put on

it. They can twist things around

and attempt to confuse the issues

as much as possible but they can't

deny the Radhasoami/Ruhani Satsang

dogma that Twitchell made his own

via Eckankar.



Klemp's damage control claim was/is

that Twit took the best and/or highest

truth from all religions in order to

create Eckankar. Thus, HK describes

Twitchell as being a "complier." On

the surface the plagiarisms are made

to seem that Twit did us all a big favor

and saved us years of research time.

Apparently, Paul, an unethical sci-fi

writer, was the best person to "compile"

this religious "truth" for us. However,

how is it that Eckankar is so "ancient"

when it needed "compiled" by PT?

And, why didn't Rebazar "compile"

these truth teachings for Eckankar

in 500 years? What was he doing

all this time... drinking yak milk?



However, even if Eckankar was

true (which it isn't) this would

still mean that, at the most,

ECKankar is a hodge-podge

of 4th Mental Plane Religious

beliefs. According to Klemp's

own definition in his Autobiography

(pg.385) all religions are of either

the 2nd or 4th Plane. Thus, the

"compiled" teachings of Eckankar

are 4th Mental Plane at best, and

come under the same influence

of the KAL (i.e. Satan or the Devil)!



Therefore, how can the EK teachings

that Twit "compiled" really be the

highest... just because he says so!

Why is that?



Thus, Paul had to make himself

more than he was in order to be

believed and followed. This is why

he created the invisible and

imaginary Rebazar. Now everyone

had the opportunity to see him

in their dreams and this gave Paul's

teachings more believability.



Except, no one could have dreams

with Rebazar that out-did PT's.

Thus, Twitchell gave himself the

highest initiation possible via RT.

And, this made PT the only "designated

person" who could perform more

cherished initiations. This is why

Klemp Does Not allow any chela

to dream of holding the Rod of

ECK Power. All of these "Rod" dreams

are forbidden to have, or to speak

of, unless, a chela wants to be

demoted.



Also, PT's "compiling" process was

both limited and bias. Twit used

libraries and borrowed a limited

selection of books with the opinions

and edited translations of others.

Twitchell was, also, influenced by

Sant Mat since he was an off-and-

on disciple of Kirpal Singh for ten

years. This is why PT told his followers

to choose one path or the other

and that one can't have one foot

in one canoe and the other foot

in another canoe.



And, let's take a second look at

the uniqueness and importance

of having a "living" Master (for a

chela's lifetime) and how Eckankar's

"living (eck) Master" differs from

Twitchell's Ruhani Satsang Master

Kirpal Singh. There really is no

measurable difference or that of

having a living Pope! All of these

religious teachings are limited to

the lower planes, and the Mental/

Etheric Plane's imagination. Besides,

why doesn't Eckankar take their

"Soul equals Soul" concept seriously?

Why is one so much "higher" and

so much more important that they

can judge the consciousness of

others?



Prometheus

Etznab,

Thanks for taking a chance on me. LOL. No, I'm not one of them.

zephrendhun

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
>
> Some good questions there. IMO.
>
> I was almost afraid to open the e-mail post
> because it had a name I never saw before.
> I thought it might be another anonymous
> poster from hell (there's been some of that
> going round lately). I was pleasantly sur-
> prised to see you weren't one of them :)
>
> Etznab
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: zephrendhun <yichenzephrendhun@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:12 pm
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] A Newcomer on the Scene....
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
>
>
> I have been a part of the community here for just a little while. But,
> I have found most of the topics discussed here completely refreshing.
> Having been a member of EK-ankar (intentional spelling) since the early
> 1970's, I have seen many changes take place. I was a member of the
> clergy, an initiator, and a ESA and took my duties very seriously.
> However, I now see that the culture of the Path of Harry has become a
> thorn in the side of most rational folks that have been with the path
> for a while. Thus, if one hasn't left the organization, he or she
> wrestles with the thought of continuing. I don't think that Paul
> Twitchell would condone the current direction of Harry's Way as it has
> lost all of the thrill and excitement of the original organization.
> Instead it, as you have mentioned or alluded to, has become a watered
> down version of Lutheranism.
>
>
>
> However, I am grateful to Paul for having offered a version of Shabda
> Yoga ( Radha Soami, Surat Shab Yoga, etc ) for me to learn about this
> wonderful science of realization via the Holy Life Stream. Sadly, it is
> the deception and subterfuge that has been perpetuated by each of the
> Living Masters that makes the path smell of falsity. However, the
> teachings themselves or the method of realization is valid. It, not
> Ek-ankar, is an ancient method for achieving realization as it will
> always be. Additionally, there is only ONE linking to the Life Stream
> that is necessary. All other so called initiations are indeed a method
> of maintaining 'client base' to support the organization's continuance.
>
>
>
> Lastly, here is a question worth considering. Why is it that all of the
> other variations of this teaching are clouded by each re-inventor's
> need to have come up with something unique and rare. From, Ching Hai,
> Jerry Mulvin, John Roger (among others)to Pauldarwinharold
> Twichellgrossklemp. All have come up with extraodinary myths about the
> origin of their most perfect Paths to realization? It's all the same
> 'Way' rehashed again and again. But for what? I honestly believe it is
> so these folks can keep their jobs of being Supreme Masters and
> wayshowers. LOL. It's really funny. But, religion is big business.
>
>
>
> Ok, I know I had forgotten something. Why is it that Marge Klemp isn't
> spoken of in the same way as Joan Klemp. Hasn't she served long enough
> and diligently enough to have received Harry's 12th initiation?
>
> She certainly has served the "EK" as much, maybe more. By the way, did
> Harry mention his wife's ascendance to ECK Mastership at the World-wide
> as was rumored?
>
>
>
> Thanks for letting me introduce myself and thanks Promethius for this
> wonderful forum.
>
>
>
> zephrendhun
>

Hello Z,
Welcome and thanks for the post.
I use to take my EK duties very
seriously... too seriously! I'd change
and was too intense and watchful
when at the center, the seminars,
on the phone (corded), or at other
EK events. Of course, being watchful
and seeing that the "guidelines"
were being followed was part of
my job and the RESA's assignment.

As far as Shabda Yoga or Radhasoami
and Ruhani Satsang it is somewhat
interesting upon first inspection as
is Eckankar, however, these to are
flawed religions. Any "living Master"
can only impart Mental Plane concepts
that can be learned in a book. The
key is to learn and become your own
Master just as these others did... except
for Klemp and many others like him
who inherited or created their positions.
They are posers! No real Master needs
to be called "Master."

BTW- You said:
"Ok, I know I had forgotten something.
Why is it that Marge Klemp isn't spoken
of in the same way as Joan Klemp. Hasn't
she served long enough and diligently
enough to have received Harry's 12th
initiation? She certainly has served the
"EK" as much, maybe more. By the way,
did Harry mention his wife's ascendance
to ECK Mastership at the World-wide
as was rumored?"

Well, since Marge is living in the
San Diego area and not Eden Prairie
nor works at the ESC she is outside
of Klemp's Inner Circle (Board) even
though she's an 8th initiate. And,
she's not sleeping with him!

Joan, on the other hand, works at
the ESC and is HK's eyes and ears,
is a 9th initiate, and sleeps with
Harry! I didn't pay to listen to HK's
talk and don't know if it was announced
that Joan was given a promotion.
It could be that "if" the promotion
did happen that this would be mentioned
in the next Mystic World instead of
at the seminar because some Eckists
might become confused and think
it (the 12th) meant that Joan was,
also, the new LEM. A printed (visual)
announcement with an ekplanation
might be the best way to approach
this news.

Still, it makes one wonder about
Eckankar's claims of being so advanced
over all other religions when Kata
Daki is the only female ECK Master!
If Eckankar is so spiritual and high,
as a teaching, and was always
"underground" and hidden from
the public anyway... Why was there
only one Female ECK Master?

As I stated before... during the
Golden Age (and the Silver Age
too) the good "positive" vibrations
of those Ages had to have been
in perfect balance, thus, the neg.
female atom would help in giving
this balance since there were more
"positive" vibrations. Therefore,
there should have been numerous
female ECK Masters because their
"negative atoms" would have helped
to have maintained balance throughout
the Ages and would have given
harmony and balance to this consciousness.
Thus, to have only one Female ECK
Master makes Eckankar look like
a typical male dominated religion
that is not as old as it claims.

Anyway, that's one view. Can anyone
come up with another as to why
Eckankar has only one female ECK
Master?

BTW- Kata Daki is sort of an
after thought isn't she? And,
Kay-Dee was Twitchell's sister's
name. Is this a coincidence that
K.D. are the initials of Kata Daki
and sound like Twitchell's sister's
nickname? Have ECKists forgot...
There aren't any Coincidences or
Accidents according to the ECK
Teachings!

Prometheus


zephrendhun wrote:

Hello All,

I have been a part of the community
here for just a little while. But, I have
found most of the topics discussed
here completely refreshing. Having
been a member of EK-ankar (intentional
spelling) since the early 1970's,
I have seen many changes take place.
I was a member of the clergy, an
initiator, and a ESA and took my
duties very seriously. However,
I now see that the culture of the
Path of Harry has become a thorn
in the side of most rational folks
that have been with the path for
a while. Thus, if one hasn't left the
organization, he or she wrestles with
the thought of continuing. I don't
think that Paul Twitchell would
condone the current direction of
Harry's Way as it has lost all of the
thrill and excitement of the original
organization. Instead it, as you have
mentioned or alluded to, has become
a watered down version of Lutheranism.

However, I am grateful to Paul for
having offered a version of Shabda
Yoga (Radha Soami, Surat Shab Yoga,
etc ) for me to learn about this wonderful
science of realization via the Holy Life
Stream. Sadly, it is the deception and
subterfuge that has been perpetuated
by each of the Living Masters that makes
the path smell of falsity. However, the
teachings themselves or the method
of realization is valid. It, not Ek-ankar,
is an ancient method for achieving
realization as it will always be. Additionally,
there is only ONE linking to the Life
Stream that is necessary. All other
so called initiations are indeed a
method of maintaining 'client base'
to support the organization's continuance.

Lastly, here is a question worth
considering. Why is it that all of
the other variations of this teaching
are clouded by each re-inventor's
need to have come up with something
unique and rare. From, Ching Hai,
Jerry Mulvin, John Roger (among
others) to Pauldarwinharold Twichell
grossklemp. All have come up with
extraodinary myths about the origin
of their most perfect Paths to realization?
It's all the same 'Way' rehashed again
and again. But for what? I honestly
believe it is so these folks can keep
their jobs of being Supreme Masters
and wayshowers. LOL. It's really funny.
But, religion is big business.

Ok, I know I had forgotten something.
Why is it that Marge Klemp isn't spoken
of in the same way as Joan Klemp. Hasn't
she served long enough and diligently
enough to have received Harry's 12th
initiation? She certainly has served the
"EK" as much, maybe more. By the way,
did Harry mention his wife's ascendance
to ECK Mastership at the World-wide
as was rumored?

Thanks for letting me introduce myself
and thanks Promethius for this wonderful
forum.

zephrendhun

Hello All,
I had a report from some Eckists
attending the recent 2009 EWWS
that they were startled as to Klemp's
appearance and overall health. They
said that his hands appeared shaky
and he seemed to be very fragile and
frail looking (thin) and had lost more
hair and that what little hair (combed
over) there was appeared to be a
very dull grey colour.

Has anyone else had any reports?

Prometheus

Klemp doesn't deliver on any
real promises does he? Why
hasn't Klemp speeded up the
ECK initiations so that the
promise of God-Realization
in This Lifetime can be fulfilled?

Why were the EK initiations
"slowed down" in the first
place? Wasn't HK claiming
the initiations were "slowed
down" because of Darwin's
past involvement with promoting
500 EKists to the 5th before
he was excommunicated? So,
what's been the excuse since
Klemp guided them to become
real/full 5ths? And, DG promoting
these 500 5ths didn't or shouldn't
have affected the 6ths, 7ths,
or 8th initiations! Klemp has
been using this as an excuse
Not to promote for all of these
years! This is subterfuge!

Where's the Master's promise
of "protection" to chelas too?
Instead, the excuse is that it's
a "test" of faith (for H.I.s),
or Karma and maybe a minor
"test" for chelas (lower initiates).

Here's a quote from HK's
Eckankar Lexicon:

"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane
of GOD-REALIZATION where
Soul learns GOD-KNOWLEDGE;
the EIGHTH PLANE. The sound
is of a thousand violins; the
word is Aluk. HIGHEST STATE
SOUL GENERALLY REACHES;
the first realm created that
IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS, SOULS,
and ENTITIES for DWELLING."
[page. 91]

Thus, "Souls," "Beings," and
"Entities"  "Generally Reach
and Dwell" on this 8th Plane
via the 8th Initiation.

BTW- Who are these "Beings"
and "Entities" that the 8th
Plane is "Available To?"

Notice that HK states that
Soul "Generally Reaches" the
"8th Plane." Does that include
all Souls, or just those paying
that Annual ECKankar Membership
Donation/Fee? it's unclear isn't
it? However, HK's Eckankar Lexicon
doesn't require an EK Membership
I.D. to purchase it... thus, it's
for the public too. One has to
assume that HK is speaking "in
general" terms and that this includes
all Souls, Beings, and Entities
whoever or whatever they are!

Yes, who are these "Beings" and
"Entities" that Klemp is including?

However, since ECKists are special
since they have a "Mahanta" why is
it that they aren't growing by leaps
and bounds with "Higher" Initiations?
Is this a paradox or a Catch-22 or
what? IMO it's another Catch-22
"Test!"

Really! Let's think about it.
Why hasn't Klemp handed
out more 8th Initiations? By
my guesstimate there should
be at least 3,000 8th Initiates
by now!

I know that this figure sounds
inflated and even impossible!
Most Eckists would be shocked
to see such a high number and
would immediately discount and
deny that such a high number
would be possible. Maybe some
H.I.s would give a nervous laugh
or just say Haw! But, think about
it for awhile. Let it sink in and
consider the possibility. Hasn't
the Consciousness of ECKists,
and Eckankar as a group, expanded
or "evolved" to the point where
there should be 3,000 8th Plane
Initiates?

Reread the above definition for
HUKIKAT LOK that is, also, in
Twitchell's (1973) Eckankar
Dictionary. Except, in Twitchell's
Eckankar Dictionary PT stated
this:

"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane of
God-Realization where Soul
learns God-knowledge, the
eighth plane." [pg. 62]

Thus Klemp added the following
to PT's HUKIKAT LOK definition
in his 1998 EK Lexicon:

"The sound is of a thousand
violins; the word is Aluk.
HIGHEST STATE SOUL GENERALLY
REACHES; the first realm created
that IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS,
SOULS, and ENTITIES for DWELLING."

Anyway, isn't one of the big
promises of Eckankar that of
reaching Spiritual Freedom and
Self-Mastery, in This Lifetime,
via the ECK Initiations that are
seen as "yardsticks" to Higher
Consciousness? Sure it is!

So, where are all of those 8th
Initiations? Klemp is just selfish
and time is running out for him
and others. He, or someone, needs
to make restitution and keep those
promises, at least, with the 8th
Initiation which equates to God-
Realization! Even if Klemp can't
protect the health and well being
of his, DG's and PT's initiates
he could at least promote and
give ECKists the 8th Initiation.

If it's too much for Klemp (the
LEM/Mahanta) to handle alone
he can designate some of the
responsibility to Rebazar and
the other EK Masters. Therefore,
there really shouldn't be any more
delays or excuses. Promote them
now!

Prometheus
p.s. It's really too bad that there
can't be an honest and open discussion
about this. ECKists are instructed
to "surrender" and "serve" with
detachment and are to keep "silent"
and not to "second guess" the LEM/
Mahanta. But, isn't this how religions
have always maintained control
over their followers? What does
Klemp have to fear? It's the "Truth"
that he fears and this is why HK
relies upon the RESA police hierarchy,
with their positions of authority,
to surpress their fellow 7th Initiates.

******
Some European Countries
Protect Their Citizens From
the Cults of ECKankar and
Scientology.

I saw where the French office
of the Church of Scientology
sect got into trouble for fraud.

Is it possible that Eckankar
could be next? Apparently
Eckankar and Scientology
are listed as "sects/cults"
in many European countries
(France, Belgium, Germany,
etc.). These sects, like Scientology
and Eckankar, don't have the
legal status of main stream
religions, nor do they have
the same benefits under their
laws.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/27/church-of-scientology-con_n_335063.html


The question is:

What could be regarded as fraud?

Would the Annual EK Membership
Donation/Fee that promises
enlightenment (God-Realization),
via  the 8th initiation for most
Eckists in this lifetime, as well
as, the "Protections" of the Master
for all chelas (that never happens)
be considered as Fraud? Klemp
slowed these initiations down
due to Darwin's involvement,
but that's been a long time ago!

Look at all of the ECKists
who have died of or have
contracted Cancer and other
diseases! Yet, Klemp (the
Master) promises them
"Protection!"

And, look at HK's "promises"
to chelas and H.I.s involving
God-Realization in this lifetime
and yet he doesn't offer enough
Higher Initiations to fullfil his
promises! And, maintaining
one's initiations is directly tied
into the Annual EK Membership
Donation Fee.

Thus, the taking of money by
Klemp, and Eckankar, for EK
Discourses and EK Memberships
and the making of False Promises
to chelas for this present lifetime
constitutes Fraud even though
this isn't illegal in the U.S. for
religions to make false promises.
However, it is unethical and
amoral at the very least! It does
give "hope" to the disillusioned,
disenfranchised, fearful, and needy,
but isn't Eckankar supposed to
be the best and highest path to
help these Souls on earth, as well
as, in heaven? Why then aren't the
"promises" of the Master a reality
in the physical instead of always
being a KAL test or Karma?

However, under most European
Laws would this failure to deliver
be considered to be fraudulent
enough to be classified as a crime
against the public? It seems so!

It could be that under the laws
of certain European countries that
Eckankar (a religious Sect) could
be found Guilty of Fraud IF an Eckist,
or former Eckist, decided to be
refunded the sums of their Annual
EK Membership Donation Fees,
and Eckankar denied the refunds.

Maybe some former or current
German, French, and Belgium
Eckists will consider asking Eckankar
for a refund for the sum of their
EK Memberships over the years!


Will Eckankar follow Scientology?

******

Here's an excerpt of the definition
of Fraud from Black's Law Dictionary
(1991):

"FRAUD. An intentional perversion
of truth for the purpose of inducing
another in reliance upon it to part
with some valuable thing belonging
to him or to surrender a legal right...

[A Required/Requested Annual
Membership Donation $$$$$$]

Elements of a cause of action for
'fraud' include false representation
of a present or past fact made by
the defendant, action in reliance
thereupon by plaintiff, and damage
resulting to plaintiff from such
misrepresentation... As distinguished
from negligence, it is always
positive, intentional. It comprises
all acts, omissions, and concealments
involving a breach of a legal or
equitable duty and resulting in
damage to another. And includes
anything calculated to deceive,
whether it be a single act or
combination of circumstances...
Fraud, as applied to contracts,
is the cause of an error bearing
on a material part of the contract,
created or contained by artifice,
with design to obtain some unjust
advantage to one party, or to cause
an inconvenience or loss to the other."


Thus, Eckankar has conducted a
fraud of misrepresentation since
it doesn't deliver on the Higher
Initiations ["omissions"] required
to attain God-Realization! [Refer
to the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book
2, Chapter 12.]

Klemp, as the LEM/M, has an implied
"contract" with his followers, but
he only makes empty promises
and does not fulfill his obligations,
and yet he's ready and willing to take
Eckists' hard earned money!

And, let's look at Eckankar's
"concealment" regarding Twitchell's
plagiarisms, and that Klemp continues
to cover-up these facts.

Thus, Eckankar, and all religions,
sects, and cults (unless proven to be
guilty of higher crimes) basically have
carte blanche,' in the U.S., and can
make false promises for money.

What a scam! Eckists have been paying
for their initiations for years but have
been locked-out of those required for
God-Realization!

It's no wonder that Twit followed L. Ron's
lead. However, in Belgium, France and
Germany these cults and sects don't
have the same protection as "religions"
do. This is what the U.S. should have
done 50 years ago!

Prometheus

Well said Promethius! But then again as I have said, there really is only one
link up or one true initiation. IMO, all other initiations are EK ankar's way of
maintaining 'customer base'. The God Realized state can only be achieved through
diligence by the chela to establish a one on one relationship with Divine
Source. Strange though, I seem to remember reading somewhere in the works of ECK
that after the chela reaches the 5th world, the Lord Sat Nam takes over looking
after the chela and his jorney into God Consciousness. I may be wrong, but I do
believe I saw this somewhere in Paul's writings.

Fashji

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Klemp doesn't deliver on any
> real promises does he? Why
> hasn't Klemp speeded up the
> ECK initiations so that the
> promise of God-Realization
> in This Lifetime can be fulfilled?
>
> Why were the EK initiations
> "slowed down" in the first
> place? Wasn't HK claiming
> the initiations were "slowed
> down" because of Darwin's
> past involvement with promoting
> 500 EKists to the 5th before
> he was excommunicated? So,
> what's been the excuse since
> Klemp guided them to become
> real/full 5ths? And, DG promoting
> these 500 5ths didn't or shouldn't
> have affected the 6ths, 7ths,
> or 8th initiations! Klemp has
> been using this as an excuse
> Not to promote for all of these
> years! This is subterfuge!
>
> Where's the Master's promise
> of "protection" to chelas too?
> Instead, the excuse is that it's
> a "test" of faith (for H.I.s),
> or Karma and maybe a minor
> "test" for chelas (lower initiates).
>
> Here's a quote from HK's
> Eckankar Lexicon:
>
> "HUKIKAT LOK. The plane
> of GOD-REALIZATION where
> Soul learns GOD-KNOWLEDGE;
> the EIGHTH PLANE. The sound
> is of a thousand violins; the
> word is Aluk. HIGHEST STATE
> SOUL GENERALLY REACHES;
> the first realm created that
> IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS, SOULS,
> and ENTITIES for DWELLING."
> [page. 91]
>
> Thus, "Souls," "Beings," and
> "Entities"  "Generally Reach
> and Dwell" on this 8th Plane
> via the 8th Initiation.
>
> BTW- Who are these "Beings"
> and "Entities" that the 8th
> Plane is "Available To?"
>
> Notice that HK states that
> Soul "Generally Reaches" the
> "8th Plane." Does that include
> all Souls, or just those paying
> that Annual ECKankar Membership
> Donation/Fee? it's unclear isn't
> it? However, HK's Eckankar Lexicon
> doesn't require an EK Membership
> I.D. to purchase it... thus, it's
> for the public too. One has to
> assume that HK is speaking "in
> general" terms and that this includes
> all Souls, Beings, and Entities
> whoever or whatever they are!
>
> Yes, who are these "Beings" and
> "Entities" that Klemp is including?
>
> However, since ECKists are special
> since they have a "Mahanta" why is
> it that they aren't growing by leaps
> and bounds with "Higher" Initiations?
> Is this a paradox or a Catch-22 or
> what? IMO it's another Catch-22
> "Test!"
>
> Really! Let's think about it.
> Why hasn't Klemp handed
> out more 8th Initiations? By
> my guesstimate there should
> be at least 3,000 8th Initiates
> by now!
>
> I know that this figure sounds
> inflated and even impossible!
> Most Eckists would be shocked
> to see such a high number and
> would immediately discount and
> deny that such a high number
> would be possible. Maybe some
> H.I.s would give a nervous laugh
> or just say Haw! But, think about
> it for awhile. Let it sink in and
> consider the possibility. Hasn't
> the Consciousness of ECKists,
> and Eckankar as a group, expanded
> or "evolved" to the point where
> there should be 3,000 8th Plane
> Initiates?
>
> Reread the above definition for
> HUKIKAT LOK that is, also, in
> Twitchell's (1973) Eckankar
> Dictionary. Except, in Twitchell's
> Eckankar Dictionary PT stated
> this:
>
> "HUKIKAT LOK. The plane of
> God-Realization where Soul
> learns God-knowledge, the
> eighth plane." [pg. 62]
>
> Thus Klemp added the following
> to PT's HUKIKAT LOK definition
> in his 1998 EK Lexicon:
>
> "The sound is of a thousand
> violins; the word is Aluk.
> HIGHEST STATE SOUL GENERALLY
> REACHES; the first realm created
> that IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS,
> SOULS, and ENTITIES for DWELLING."
>
> Anyway, isn't one of the big
> promises of Eckankar that of
> reaching Spiritual Freedom and
> Self-Mastery, in This Lifetime,
> via the ECK Initiations that are
> seen as "yardsticks" to Higher
> Consciousness? Sure it is!
>
> So, where are all of those 8th
> Initiations? Klemp is just selfish
> and time is running out for him
> and others. He, or someone, needs
> to make restitution and keep those
> promises, at least, with the 8th
> Initiation which equates to God-
> Realization! Even if Klemp can't
> protect the health and well being
> of his, DG's and PT's initiates
> he could at least promote and
> give ECKists the 8th Initiation.
>
> If it's too much for Klemp (the
> LEM/Mahanta) to handle alone
> he can designate some of the
> responsibility to Rebazar and
> the other EK Masters. Therefore,
> there really shouldn't be any more
> delays or excuses. Promote them
> now!
>
> Prometheus
> p.s. It's really too bad that there
> can't be an honest and open discussion
> about this. ECKists are instructed
> to "surrender" and "serve" with
> detachment and are to keep "silent"
> and not to "second guess" the LEM/
> Mahanta. But, isn't this how religions
> have always maintained control
> over their followers? What does
> Klemp have to fear? It's the "Truth"
> that he fears and this is why HK
> relies upon the RESA police hierarchy,
> with their positions of authority,
> to surpress their fellow 7th Initiates.
>
> ******
> Some European Countries
> Protect Their Citizens From
> the Cults of ECKankar and
> Scientology.
>
> I saw where the French office
> of the Church of Scientology
> sect got into trouble for fraud.
>
> Is it possible that Eckankar
> could be next? Apparently
> Eckankar and Scientology
> are listed as "sects/cults"
> in many European countries
> (France, Belgium, Germany,
> etc.). These sects, like Scientology
> and Eckankar, don't have the
> legal status of main stream
> religions, nor do they have
> the same benefits under their
> laws.
>
>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/27/church-of-scientology-con_n_335063.html
>
>
> The question is:
>
> What could be regarded as fraud?
>
> Would the Annual EK Membership
> Donation/Fee that promises
> enlightenment (God-Realization),
> via  the 8th initiation for most
> Eckists in this lifetime, as well
> as, the "Protections" of the Master
> for all chelas (that never happens)
> be considered as Fraud? Klemp
> slowed these initiations down
> due to Darwin's involvement,
> but that's been a long time ago!
>
> Look at all of the ECKists
> who have died of or have
> contracted Cancer and other
> diseases! Yet, Klemp (the
> Master) promises them
> "Protection!"
>
> And, look at HK's "promises"
> to chelas and H.I.s involving
> God-Realization in this lifetime
> and yet he doesn't offer enough
> Higher Initiations to fullfil his
> promises! And, maintaining
> one's initiations is directly tied
> into the Annual EK Membership
> Donation Fee.
>
> Thus, the taking of money by
> Klemp, and Eckankar, for EK
> Discourses and EK Memberships
> and the making of False Promises
> to chelas for this present lifetime
> constitutes Fraud even though
> this isn't illegal in the U.S. for
> religions to make false promises.
> However, it is unethical and
> amoral at the very least! It does
> give "hope" to the disillusioned,
> disenfranchised, fearful, and needy,
> but isn't Eckankar supposed to
> be the best and highest path to
> help these Souls on earth, as well
> as, in heaven? Why then aren't the
> "promises" of the Master a reality
> in the physical instead of always
> being a KAL test or Karma?
>
> However, under most European
> Laws would this failure to deliver
> be considered to be fraudulent
> enough to be classified as a crime
> against the public? It seems so!
>
> It could be that under the laws
> of certain European countries that
> Eckankar (a religious Sect) could
> be found Guilty of Fraud IF an Eckist,
> or former Eckist, decided to be
> refunded the sums of their Annual
> EK Membership Donation Fees,
> and Eckankar denied the refunds.
>
> Maybe some former or current
> German, French, and Belgium
> Eckists will consider asking Eckankar
> for a refund for the sum of their
> EK Memberships over the years!
>
>
> Will Eckankar follow Scientology?
>
> ******
>
> Here's an excerpt of the definition
> of Fraud from Black's Law Dictionary
> (1991):
>
> "FRAUD. An intentional perversion
> of truth for the purpose of inducing
> another in reliance upon it to part
> with some valuable thing belonging
> to him or to surrender a legal right...
>
> [A Required/Requested Annual
> Membership Donation $$$$$$]
>
> Elements of a cause of action for
> 'fraud' include false representation
> of a present or past fact made by
> the defendant, action in reliance
> thereupon by plaintiff, and damage
> resulting to plaintiff from such
> misrepresentation... As distinguished
> from negligence, it is always
> positive, intentional. It comprises
> all acts, omissions, and concealments
> involving a breach of a legal or
> equitable duty and resulting in
> damage to another. And includes
> anything calculated to deceive,
> whether it be a single act or
> combination of circumstances...
> Fraud, as applied to contracts,
> is the cause of an error bearing
> on a material part of the contract,
> created or contained by artifice,
> with design to obtain some unjust
> advantage to one party, or to cause
> an inconvenience or loss to the other."
>
>
> Thus, Eckankar has conducted a
> fraud of misrepresentation since
> it doesn't deliver on the Higher
> Initiations ["omissions"] required
> to attain God-Realization! [Refer
> to the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book
> 2, Chapter 12.]
>
> Klemp, as the LEM/M, has an implied
> "contract" with his followers, but
> he only makes empty promises
> and does not fulfill his obligations,
> and yet he's ready and willing to take
> Eckists' hard earned money!
>
> And, let's look at Eckankar's
> "concealment" regarding Twitchell's
> plagiarisms, and that Klemp continues
> to cover-up these facts.
>
> Thus, Eckankar, and all religions,
> sects, and cults (unless proven to be
> guilty of higher crimes) basically have
> carte blanche,' in the U.S., and can
> make false promises for money.
>
> What a scam! Eckists have been paying
> for their initiations for years but have
> been locked-out of those required for
> God-Realization!
>
> It's no wonder that Twit followed L. Ron's
> lead. However, in Belgium, France and
> Germany these cults and sects don't
> have the same protection as "religions"
> do. This is what the U.S. should have
> done 50 years ago!
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Z and All,
I agree that there is only One link
up with the Divine. IMO it's not
through a manmade religion or via
their manmade initiations. It's an
on-going series of private, personal,
and subjective events/experiences
with the Holy Spirit that excludes a
group think/consciousness, although,
we all have commonalities.

No person (Klemp or otherwise) nor
any imaginary "Inner Master" can dole
out real/true initiations (denoting levels
of spiritual consciousness) to others
by saying this or that person deserves
one while another doesn't.

However, one has to understand how
religion works. It's very competitive.
It's almost like buying an insurance
policy. The one that has the best
word of mouth reputation via happy
customers and advertises more, while
having the best value and coverage
for the cost, usually does well until
it defaults due to too many claims
that it can't cover. After a default
or a hesitation on coverage of their
promises (policy) the company
(religion) can come across as an
unsafe investment (scam). Thus,
people will then start to shop
around. However, if you're Self-
insured you don't need to shop
around...


Yes, I too seem to remember Twit
saying that Sat Nam will take over
Soul's guidance upon receiving the
5th initiation.

In "The Path of the Masters" (pg. 199,
1977 edition) it states that Sat Nam
is the "Supreme Guru" and in Klemp's
EK Lexicon he states that Sat Nam is
"the lord of ALL ABOVE and below;
the Power, the Light, flowing down
and OUT to ALL CREATION, to CREATE,
GOVERN, and SUSTAIN ALL REGIONS..."
[pg. 183]

If one is to take this literally it means
that SAT NAM is the one true "Inner
Master" versus the Mahanta! Plus,
many other religions acknowledge
Sat Nam and have written of this
entity in ancient text while PT, on
the other hand, created his "Mahanta"
competitor in 1969.

See, once again we can see how
religions compete with one another
for members. Eckists need to be
willing to stand back and take a
detached look.

As I said before... buying into a
religion is like buying insurance...
just don't trust that you can collect
on their promises (in this lifetime)
and read the exclusions (fine print).
However, one should remember
that in the Free World one doesn't
need to buy/have a religion. It's
not the law!

Prometheus


zephrendhun wrote:

Well said Promethius!

But then again as I have said,
there really is only one link up
or one true initiation.

IMO, all other initiations are
EK ankar's way of maintaining
'customer base'.

The God Realized state can only
be achieved through diligence
by the chela to establish a one on
one relationship with Divine Source.

Strange though, I seem to remember
reading somewhere in the works
of ECK that after the chela reaches
the 5th world, the Lord Sat Nam
takes over looking after the chela
and his journey into God Consciousness.
I may be wrong, but I do believe
I saw this somewhere in Paul's
writings.

Fashji

prometheus wrote:

Klemp doesn't deliver on any
real promises does he? Why
hasn't Klemp speeded up the
ECK initiations so that the
promise of God-Realization
in This Lifetime can be fulfilled?

Why were the EK initiations
"slowed down" in the first
place? Wasn't HK claiming
the initiations were "slowed
down" because of Darwin's
past involvement with promoting
500 EKists to the 5th before
he was excommunicated? So,
what's been the excuse since
Klemp guided them to become
real/full 5ths? And, DG promoting
these 500 5ths didn't or shouldn't
have affected the 6ths, 7ths,
or 8th initiations! Klemp has
been using this as an excuse
Not to promote for all of these
years! This is subterfuge!

Where's the Master's promise
of "protection" to chelas too?
Instead, the excuse is that it's
a "test" of faith (for H.I.s),
or Karma and maybe a minor
"test" for chelas (lower initiates).

Here's a quote from HK's
Eckankar Lexicon:

"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane
of GOD-REALIZATION where
Soul learns GOD-KNOWLEDGE;
the EIGHTH PLANE. The sound
is of a thousand violins; the
word is Aluk. HIGHEST STATE
SOUL GENERALLY REACHES;
the first realm created that
IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS, SOULS,
and ENTITIES for DWELLING."
[page. 91]

Thus, "Souls," "Beings," and
"Entities" "Generally Reach
and Dwell" on this 8th Plane
via the 8th Initiation.

BTW- Who are these "Beings"
and "Entities" that the 8th
Plane is "Available To?"

Notice that HK states that
Soul "Generally Reaches" the
"8th Plane." Does that include
all Souls, or just those paying
that Annual ECKankar Membership
Donation/Fee? it's unclear isn't
it? However, HK's Eckankar Lexicon
doesn't require an EK Membership
I.D. to purchase it... thus, it's
for the public too. One has to
assume that HK is speaking "in
general" terms and that this includes
all Souls, Beings, and Entities
whoever or whatever they are!

Yes, who are these "Beings" and
"Entities" that Klemp is including?

However, since ECKists are special
since they have a "Mahanta" why is
it that they aren't growing by leaps
and bounds with "Higher" Initiations?
Is this a paradox or a Catch-22 or
what? IMO it's another Catch-22
"Test!"

Really! Let's think about it.
Why hasn't Klemp handed
out more 8th Initiations? By
my guesstimate there should
be at least 3,000 8th Initiates
by now!

I know that this figure sounds
inflated and even impossible!
Most Eckists would be shocked
to see such a high number and
would immediately discount and
deny that such a high number
would be possible. Maybe some
H.I.s would give a nervous laugh
or just say Haw! But, think about
it for awhile. Let it sink in and
consider the possibility. Hasn't
the Consciousness of ECKists,
and Eckankar as a group, expanded
or "evolved" to the point where
there should be 3,000 8th Plane
Initiates?

Reread the above definition for
HUKIKAT LOK that is, also, in
Twitchell's (1973) Eckankar
Dictionary. Except, in Twitchell's
Eckankar Dictionary PT stated
this:

"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane of
God-Realization where Soul
learns God-knowledge, the
eighth plane." [pg. 62]

Thus Klemp added the following
to PT's HUKIKAT LOK definition
in his 1998 EK Lexicon:

"The sound is of a thousand
violins; the word is Aluk.
HIGHEST STATE SOUL GENERALLY
REACHES; the first realm created
that IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS,
SOULS, and ENTITIES for DWELLING."

Anyway, isn't one of the big
promises of Eckankar that of
reaching Spiritual Freedom and
Self-Mastery, in This Lifetime,
via the ECK Initiations that are
seen as "yardsticks" to Higher
Consciousness? Sure it is!

So, where are all of those 8th
Initiations? Klemp is just selfish
and time is running out for him
and others. He, or someone, needs
to make restitution and keep those
promises, at least, with the 8th
Initiation which equates to God-
Realization! Even if Klemp can't
protect the health and well being
of his, DG's and PT's initiates
he could at least promote and
give ECKists the 8th Initiation.

If it's too much for Klemp (the
LEM/Mahanta) to handle alone
he can designate some of the
responsibility to Rebazar and
the other EK Masters. Therefore,
there really shouldn't be any more
delays or excuses. Promote them
now!

Prometheus
p.s. It's really too bad that there
can't be an honest and open discussion
about this. ECKists are instructed
to "surrender" and "serve" with
detachment and are to keep "silent"
and not to "second guess" the LEM/
Mahanta. But, isn't this how religions
have always maintained control
over their followers? What does
Klemp have to fear? It's the "Truth"
that he fears and this is why HK
relies upon the RESA police hierarchy,
with their positions of authority,
to surpress their fellow 7th Initiates.

******
Some European Countries
Protect Their Citizens From
the Cults of ECKankar and
Scientology.

I saw where the French office
of the Church of Scientology
sect got into trouble for fraud.

Is it possible that Eckankar
could be next? Apparently
Eckankar and Scientology
are listed as "sects/cults"
in many European countries
(France, Belgium, Germany,
etc.). These sects, like Scientology
and Eckankar, don't have the
legal status of main stream
religions, nor do they have
the same benefits under their
laws.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/27/church-of-scientology-con_n_335063.html


The question is:

What could be regarded as fraud?

Would the Annual EK Membership
Donation/Fee that promises
enlightenment (God-Realization),
via the 8th initiation for most
Eckists in this lifetime, as well
as, the "Protections" of the Master
for all chelas (that never happens)
be considered as Fraud? Klemp
slowed these initiations down
due to Darwin's involvement,
but that's been a long time ago!

Look at all of the ECKists
who have died of or have
contracted Cancer and other
diseases! Yet, Klemp (the
Master) promises them
"Protection!"

And, look at HK's "promises"
to chelas and H.I.s involving
God-Realization in this lifetime
and yet he doesn't offer enough
Higher Initiations to fullfil his
promises! And, maintaining
one's initiations is directly tied
into the Annual EK Membership
Donation Fee.

Thus, the taking of money by
Klemp, and Eckankar, for EK
Discourses and EK Memberships
and the making of False Promises
to chelas for this present lifetime
constitutes Fraud even though
this isn't illegal in the U.S. for
religions to make false promises.
However, it is unethical and
amoral at the very least! It does
give "hope" to the disillusioned,
disenfranchised, fearful, and needy,
but isn't Eckankar supposed to
be the best and highest path to
help these Souls on earth, as well
as, in heaven? Why then aren't the
"promises" of the Master a reality
in the physical instead of always
being a KAL test or Karma?

However, under most European
Laws would this failure to deliver
be considered to be fraudulent
enough to be classified as a crime
against the public? It seems so!

It could be that under the laws
of certain European countries that
Eckankar (a religious Sect) could
be found Guilty of Fraud IF an Eckist,
or former Eckist, decided to be
refunded the sums of their Annual
EK Membership Donation Fees,
and Eckankar denied the refunds.

Maybe some former or current
German, French, and Belgium
Eckists will consider asking Eckankar
for a refund for the sum of their
EK Memberships over the years!


Will Eckankar follow Scientology?

******

Here's an excerpt of the definition
of Fraud from Black's Law Dictionary
(1991):

"FRAUD. An intentional perversion
of truth for the purpose of inducing
another in reliance upon it to part
with some valuable thing belonging
to him or to surrender a legal right...

[A Required/Requested Annual
Membership Donation $$$$$$]

Elements of a cause of action for
'fraud' include false representation
of a present or past fact made by
the defendant, action in reliance
thereupon by plaintiff, and damage
resulting to plaintiff from such
misrepresentation... As distinguished
from negligence, it is always
positive, intentional. It comprises
all acts, omissions, and concealments
involving a breach of a legal or
equitable duty and resulting in
damage to another. And includes
anything calculated to deceive,
whether it be a single act or
combination of circumstances...
Fraud, as applied to contracts,
is the cause of an error bearing
on a material part of the contract,
created or contained by artifice,
with design to obtain some unjust
advantage to one party, or to cause
an inconvenience or loss to the other."


Thus, Eckankar has conducted a
fraud of misrepresentation since
it doesn't deliver on the Higher
Initiations ["omissions"] required
to attain God-Realization! [Refer
to the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book
2, Chapter 12.]

Klemp, as the LEM/M, has an implied
"contract" with his followers, but
he only makes empty promises
and does not fulfill his obligations,
and yet he's ready and willing to take
Eckists' hard earned money!

And, let's look at Eckankar's
"concealment" regarding Twitchell's
plagiarisms, and that Klemp continues
to cover-up these facts.

Thus, Eckankar, and all religions,
sects, and cults (unless proven to be
guilty of higher crimes) basically have
carte blanche,' in the U.S., and can
make false promises for money.

What a scam! Eckists have been paying
for their initiations for years but have
been locked-out of those required for
God-Realization!

It's no wonder that Twit followed L. Ron's
lead. However, in Belgium, France and
Germany these cults and sects don't
have the same protection as "religions"
do. This is what the U.S. should have
done 50 years ago!

Prometheus

Prometheus & All,

Where and when do you suppose the idea
of "The" Living Master first occurred in the
records of history?

Anybody want to hazard a guess about the
time frame?

How about the country?

Etznab

-----Original Message-----
From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 12:00 pm
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: HK's God-Realization Promise
and the 8th Initiation!

 






Hello Z and All,

I agree that there is only One link

up with the Divine. IMO it's not

through a manmade religion or via

their manmade initiations. It's an

on-going series of private, personal,

and subjective events/experiences

with the Holy Spirit that excludes a

group think/consciousness, although,

we all have commonalities.



No person (Klemp or otherwise) nor

any imaginary "Inner Master" can dole

out real/true initiations (denoting levels

of spiritual consciousness) to others

by saying this or that person deserves

one while another doesn't.



However, one has to understand how

religion works. It's very competitive.

It's almost like buying an insurance

policy. The one that has the best

word of mouth reputation via happy

customers and advertises more, while

having the best value and coverage

for the cost, usually does well until

it defaults due to too many claims

that it can't cover. After a default

or a hesitation on coverage of their

promises (policy) the company

(religion) can come across as an

unsafe investment (scam). Thus,

people will then start to shop

around. However, if you're Self-

insured you don't need to shop

around...



Yes, I too seem to remember Twit

saying that Sat Nam will take over

Soul's guidance upon receiving the

5th initiation.



In "The Path of the Masters" (pg. 199,

1977 edition) it states that Sat Nam

is the "Supreme Guru" and in Klemp's

EK Lexicon he states that Sat Nam is

"the lord of ALL ABOVE and below;

the Power, the Light, flowing down

and OUT to ALL CREATION, to CREATE,

GOVERN, and SUSTAIN ALL REGIONS..."

[pg. 183]



If one is to take this literally it means

that SAT NAM is the one true "Inner

Master" versus the Mahanta! Plus,

many other religions acknowledge

Sat Nam and have written of this

entity in ancient text while PT, on

the other hand, created his "Mahanta"

competitor in 1969.



See, once again we can see how

religions compete with one another

for members. Eckists need to be

willing to stand back and take a

detached look.



As I said before... buying into a

religion is like buying insurance...

just don't trust that you can collect

on their promises (in this lifetime)

and read the exclusions (fine print).

However, one should remember

that in the Free World one doesn't

need to buy/have a religion. It's

not the law!



Prometheus





zephrendhun wrote:



Well said Promethius!



But then again as I have said,

there really is only one link up

or one true initiation.



IMO, all other initiations are

EK ankar's way of maintaining

'customer base'.



The God Realized state can only

be achieved through diligence

by the chela to establish a one on

one relationship with Divine Source.



Strange though, I seem to remember

reading somewhere in the works

of ECK that after the chela reaches

the 5th world, the Lord Sat Nam

takes over looking after the chela

and his journey into God Consciousness.

I may be wrong, but I do believe

I saw this somewhere in Paul's

writings.



Fashji



prometheus wrote:



Klemp doesn't deliver on any

real promises does he? Why

hasn't Klemp speeded up the

ECK initiations so that the

promise of God-Realization

in This Lifetime can be fulfilled?



Why were the EK initiations

"slowed down" in the first

place? Wasn't HK claiming

the initiations were "slowed

down" because of Darwin's

past involvement with promoting

500 EKists to the 5th before

he was excommunicated? So,

what's been the excuse since

Klemp guided them to become

real/full 5ths? And, DG promoting

these 500 5ths didn't or shouldn't

have affected the 6ths, 7ths,

or 8th initiations! Klemp has

been using this as an excuse

Not to promote for all of these

years! This is subterfuge!



Where's the Master's promise

of "protection" to chelas too?

Instead, the excuse is that it's

a "test" of faith (for H.I.s),

or Karma and maybe a minor

"test" for chelas (lower initiates).



Here's a quote from HK's

Eckankar Lexicon:



"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane

of GOD-REALIZATION where

Soul learns GOD-KNOWLEDGE;

the EIGHTH PLANE. The sound

is of a thousand violins; the

word is Aluk. HIGHEST STATE

SOUL GENERALLY REACHES;

the first realm created that

IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS, SOULS,

and ENTITIES for DWELLING."

[page. 91]



Thus, "Souls," "Beings," and

"Entities" "Generally Reach

and Dwell" on this 8th Plane

via the 8th Initiation.



BTW- Who are these "Beings"

and "Entities" that the 8th

Plane is "Available To?"



Notice that HK states that

Soul "Generally Reaches" the

"8th Plane." Does that include

all Souls, or just those paying

that Annual ECKankar Membership

Donation/Fee? it's unclear isn't

it? However, HK's Eckankar Lexicon

doesn't require an EK Membership

I.D. to purchase it... thus, it's

for the public too. One has to

assume that HK is speaking "in

general" terms and that this includes

all Souls, Beings, and Entities

whoever or whatever they are!



Yes, who are these "Beings" and

"Entities" that Klemp is including?



However, since ECKists are special

since they have a "Mahanta" why is

it that they aren't growing by leaps

and bounds with "Higher" Initiations?

Is this a paradox or a Catch-22 or

what? IMO it's another Catch-22

"Test!"



Really! Let's think about it.

Why hasn't Klemp handed

out more 8th Initiations? By

my guesstimate there should

be at least 3,000 8th Initiates

by now!



I know that this figure sounds

inflated and even impossible!

Most Eckists would be shocked

to see such a high number and

would immediately discount and

deny that such a high number

would be possible. Maybe some

H.I.s would give a nervous laugh

or just say Haw! But, think about

it for awhile. Let it sink in and

consider the possibility. Hasn't

the Consciousness of ECKists,

and Eckankar as a group, expanded

or "evolved" to the point where

there should be 3,000 8th Plane

Initiates?



Reread the above definition for

HUKIKAT LOK that is, also, in

Twitchell's (1973) Eckankar

Dictionary. Except, in Twitchell's

Eckankar Dictionary PT stated

this:



"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane of

God-Realization where Soul

learns God-knowledge, the

eighth plane." [pg. 62]



Thus Klemp added the following

to PT's HUKIKAT LOK definition

in his 1998 EK Lexicon:



"The sound is of a thousand

violins; the word is Aluk.

HIGHEST STATE SOUL GENERALLY

REACHES; the first realm created

that IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS,

SOULS, and ENTITIES for DWELLING."



Anyway, isn't one of the big

promises of Eckankar that of

reaching Spiritual Freedom and

Self-Mastery, in This Lifetime,

via the ECK Initiations that are

seen as "yardsticks" to Higher

Consciousness? Sure it is!



So, where are all of those 8th

Initiations? Klemp is just selfish

and time is running out for him

and others. He, or someone, needs

to make restitution and keep those

promises, at least, with the 8th

Initiation which equates to God-

Realization! Even if Klemp can't

protect the health and well being

of his, DG's and PT's initiates

he could at least promote and

give ECKists the 8th Initiation.



If it's too much for Klemp (the

LEM/Mahanta) to handle alone

he can designate some of the

responsibility to Rebazar and

the other EK Masters. Therefore,

there really shouldn't be any more

delays or excuses. Promote them

now!



Prometheus

p.s. It's really too bad that there

can't be an honest and open discussion

about this. ECKists are instructed

to "surrender" and "serve" with

detachment and are to keep "silent"

and not to "second guess" the LEM/

Mahanta. But, isn't this how religions

have always maintained control

over their followers? What does

Klemp have to fear? It's the "Truth"

that he fears and this is why HK

relies upon the RESA police hierarchy,

with their positions of authority,

to surpress their fellow 7th Initiates.



******

Some European Countries

Protect Their Citizens From

the Cults of ECKankar and

Scientology.



I saw where the French office

of the Church of Scientology

sect got into trouble for fraud.



Is it possible that Eckankar

could be next? Apparently

Eckankar and Scientology

are listed as "sects/cults"

in many European countries

(France, Belgium, Germany,

etc.). These sects, like Scientology

and Eckankar, don't have the

legal status of main stream

religions, nor do they have

the same benefits under their

laws.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/27/church-of-scientology-con_n_335063.html



The question is:



What could be regarded as fraud?



Would the Annual EK Membership

Donation/Fee that promises

enlightenment (God-Realization),

via the 8th initiation for most

Eckists in this lifetime, as well

as, the "Protections" of the Master

for all chelas (that never happens)

be considered as Fraud? Klemp

slowed these initiations down

due to Darwin's involvement,

but that's been a long time ago!



Look at all of the ECKists

who have died of or have

contracted Cancer and other

diseases! Yet, Klemp (the

Master) promises them

"Protection!"



And, look at HK's "promises"

to chelas and H.I.s involving

God-Realization in this lifetime

and yet he doesn't offer enough

Higher Initiations to fullfil his

promises! And, maintaining

one's initiations is directly tied

into the Annual EK Membership

Donation Fee.



Thus, the taking of money by

Klemp, and Eckankar, for EK

Discourses and EK Memberships

and the making of False Promises

to chelas for this present lifetime

constitutes Fraud even though

this isn't illegal in the U.S. for

religions to make false promises.

However, it is unethical and

amoral at the very least! It does

give "hope" to the disillusioned,

disenfranchised, fearful, and needy,

but isn't Eckankar supposed to

be the best and highest path to

help these Souls on earth, as well

as, in heaven? Why then aren't the

"promises" of the Master a reality

in the physical instead of always

being a KAL test or Karma?



However, under most European

Laws would this failure to deliver

be considered to be fraudulent

enough to be classified as a crime

against the public? It seems so!



It could be that under the laws

of certain European countries that

Eckankar (a religious Sect) could

be found Guilty of Fraud IF an Eckist,

or former Eckist, decided to be

refunded the sums of their Annual

EK Membership Donation Fees,

and Eckankar denied the refunds.



Maybe some former or current

German, French, and Belgium

Eckists will consider asking Eckankar

for a refund for the sum of their

EK Memberships over the years!



Will Eckankar follow Scientology?



******



Here's an excerpt of the definition

of Fraud from Black's Law Dictionary

(1991):



"FRAUD. An intentional perversion

of truth for the purpose of inducing

another in reliance upon it to part

with some valuable thing belonging

to him or to surrender a legal right...



[A Required/Requested Annual

Membership Donation $$$$$$]



Elements of a cause of action for

'fraud' include false representation

of a present or past fact made by

the defendant, action in reliance

thereupon by plaintiff, and damage

resulting to plaintiff from such

misrepresentation... As distinguished

from negligence, it is always

positive, intentional. It comprises

all acts, omissions, and concealments

involving a breach of a legal or

equitable duty and resulting in

damage to another. And includes

anything calculated to deceive,

whether it be a single act or

combination of circumstances...

Fraud, as applied to contracts,

is the cause of an error bearing

on a material part of the contract,

created or contained by artifice,

with design to obtain some unjust

advantage to one party, or to cause

an inconvenience or loss to the other."



Thus, Eckankar has conducted a

fraud of misrepresentation since

it doesn't deliver on the Higher

Initiations ["omissions"] required

to attain God-Realization! [Refer

to the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book

2, Chapter 12.]



Klemp, as the LEM/M, has an implied

"contract" with his followers, but

he only makes empty promises

and does not fulfill his obligations,

and yet he's ready and willing to take

Eckists' hard earned money!



And, let's look at Eckankar's

"concealment" regarding Twitchell's

plagiarisms, and that Klemp continues

to cover-up these facts.



Thus, Eckankar, and all religions,

sects, and cults (unless proven to be

guilty of higher crimes) basically have

carte blanche,' in the U.S., and can

make false promises for money.



What a scam! Eckists have been paying

for their initiations for years but have

been locked-out of those required for

God-Realization!



It's no wonder that Twit followed L. Ron's

lead. However, in Belgium, France and

Germany these cults and sects don't

have the same protection as "religions"

do. This is what the U.S. should have

done 50 years ago!



Prometheus

Hello Etznab and All,
Or, we could look at "The" living
"saviour" origin as well. I don't
know! However, PT realized that
people needed a living idol to adore
and had this Mystic World article
written in his behalf:

"But few ever connect him up with
being a holy man, the MAHANTA,
the Living ECK Master. There is a
need of the people to believe in
the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul
Twitchell knows this and acts out
the part." [April-May-June 1971,
Difficulties of Becoming the LEM,
pg. 250]

However, in order to become a
"Saviour" Paul had to have had
a Virgin Birth (this is SOP). The
following comes from pages 251-
253 of Difficulties of Becoming
the Living ECK Master:

"Ramaj, viceroy for Sat Nam...
Rebazar Tarzs... Gopal Das..and
Yaubl Sacabi... met to discuss
the birth of the coming Avatar
for the Twentieth Century,
Peddar Zaskq. Born in the
Caucasian mountains during
the seventeenth century...
Given several years in the art
of silence and Darkness he gained
enlightenment in preparation
for his return to the Twentieth
Century. [HK should take note
of this next statement] When
the time came for his demise,
he passed away still looking
the same youthful appearance
yet beyond the normal age of
man....

This time Peddar Zaskq was
born on a Mississippi River
packet enroute to New Orleans.
The miraculous birth took place
just below the city of Natchez,
Mississippi just below a stock
farm (manger)... There appeared
a Blue Carnation in a vase on
a night table by THE mother's
bed... It was immediately
arranged for him to be given
a home in which to be raised.
His foster parents raised him
in a small southern river town
[Paducah, Kentucky]. He adopted
their name and became known
as Paul Twitchell." [end of quote]


We, also, have Twit saying this
as an excuse for his lies and self-
promotion [pg. 126]:

"So therefore we got to be, to
place ourselves in the mainstream,
which I hope I do and I have to say,
unless I make myself a Historical
Figure, the struggle of ECK for
survival is useless. And the question
of that comes up, well, why? Why
do you make such a statement as
that? Every man who sets out to
do something in this world, unless
he made himself a Historical Figure,
then he never again is remembered
except by a few when he passes."


PT's Paris (Kentucky) Story is
on page 254 and comes from
an article in The Mystic World
July-Aug.-Sept, 1971:

"The rest of his story is told in
fragments of his first visit to
Paris to be with his stepsister,
who was in training to be an
artist. It was here that he first
met Sudar Singh, an ECK Master,
and followed him to India with
his stepsister to study ECK..."

More about "Paris" (Kentucky)
from pages 38-40:

"Later I would be able to go to
Paris to see my sister who was
studying art at one of the art
studios Over There. She was
under an instructor who had
studied under Degas... who was
a very famous portrait painter
of the opera and the ballet during
his day in PARIS."

Thus, we can clearly see that Twit
was lying and trying to deceive us
into thinking this was Paris, France
(not Paris, Kentucky) since he's
including Degas in the story.

"I suppose that that's where she
got her ability to paint figures
because she had COPIED Degas
time and time again... Well, in
living in Paris, I was quite happy
at the time when I was OVER there
with my SISTER, my stepsister,
Katie." [Twit would call her Kay-Dee]

"...we took advantage of this freedom,
because for some reason the Europeans
seemed to have an affection for young
people, more than they had in the
western countries, particularly at that
time." [Here, PT has without a doubt
connected-the-dots for us by saying
that he was in Europe and not Kentucky]

"We were just a few block away from
Montmartre, where all the famous
artists were living... Edgar Degas was
the last that I knew of, Katie was very
close to him because she was studying
under one of his students." [Was Degas
even living in this year? What a liar!]

"WE met with Sudar Singh who was the
leading advocate of Soul Travel. From
Paris we decided that we would go back
to his little ashram, which was five miles
above ALLAHABAD, on what they call Old
Canteen Road..." [So, from Paris, France
(Kentucky) they went to Allahabad, India!]

"After I had left India, came home, I was
then about sixteen. I had a year or so to
do some work in order to finish my degree."
[page 48]

Note: Klemp gives Paul's birthdate as
Oct. 22, 1908. Thus, if Paul was 16
this was 1924. However, Klemp states
on eckankar.org that at age 27 (1935)
Paul was trying to get into "Who's Who
in Kentucky" by "exaggerating" and
"twisting facts" and that he'd never
traveled outside of the United States
at that time. Therefore, Paul is still,
as the M/LEM, lying about these events
in 1971!  And, PT was never in Paris,
France prior to 1965 and never traveled
to India (from Paris) with his sister to
meet Sudar Singh at age 16.

Here's another PT tidbit that tells a lot:

"Now, a lot of the impressions that I first
set out in my first work, I'm having to go
back and redo these things and try to
correct them." [page 135]


prometheus


etznab wrote:

Prometheus & All,

Where and when do you suppose the idea
of "The" Living Master first occurred in the
records of history?

Anybody want to hazard a guess about the
time frame?

How about the country?

Etznab

Hello Z and All,
I agree that there is only One link
up with the Divine. IMO it's not
through a manmade religion or via
their manmade initiations. It's an
on-going series of private, personal,
and subjective events/experiences
with the Holy Spirit that excludes a
group think/consciousness, although,
we all have commonalities.

No person (Klemp or otherwise) nor
any imaginary "Inner Master" can dole
out real/true initiations (denoting levels
of spiritual consciousness) to others
by saying this or that person deserves
one while another doesn't.

However, one has to understand how
religion works. It's very competitive.
It's almost like buying an insurance
policy. The one that has the best
word of mouth reputation via happy
customers and advertises more, while
having the best value and coverage
for the cost, usually does well until
it defaults due to too many claims
that it can't cover. After a default
or a hesitation on coverage of their
promises (policy) the company
(religion) can come across as an
unsafe investment (scam). Thus,
people will then start to shop
around. However, if you're Self-
insured you don't need to shop
around...


Yes, I too seem to remember Twit
saying that Sat Nam will take over
Soul's guidance upon receiving the
5th initiation.

In "The Path of the Masters" (pg. 199,
1977 edition) it states that Sat Nam
is the "Supreme Guru" and in Klemp's
EK Lexicon he states that Sat Nam is
"the lord of ALL ABOVE and below;
the Power, the Light, flowing down
and OUT to ALL CREATION, to CREATE,
GOVERN, and SUSTAIN ALL REGIONS..."
[pg. 183]

If one is to take this literally it means
that SAT NAM is the one true "Inner
Master" versus the Mahanta! Plus,
many other religions acknowledge
Sat Nam and have written of this
entity in ancient text while PT, on
the other hand, created his "Mahanta"
competitor in 1969.

See, once again we can see how
religions compete with one another
for members. Eckists need to be
willing to stand back and take a
detached look.

As I said before... buying into a
religion is like buying insurance...
just don't trust that you can collect
on their promises (in this lifetime)
and read the exclusions (fine print).
However, one should remember
that in the Free World one doesn't
need to buy/have a religion. It's
not the law!

Prometheus


zephrendhun wrote:

Well said Promethius!

But then again as I have said,
there really is only one link up
or one true initiation.

IMO, all other initiations are
EK ankar's way of maintaining
'customer base'.

The God Realized state can only
be achieved through diligence
by the chela to establish a one on
one relationship with Divine Source.

Strange though, I seem to remember
reading somewhere in the works
of ECK that after the chela reaches
the 5th world, the Lord Sat Nam
takes over looking after the chela
and his journey into God Consciousness.
I may be wrong, but I do believe
I saw this somewhere in Paul's
writings.

Fashji

prometheus wrote:

Klemp doesn't deliver on any
real promises does he? Why
hasn't Klemp speeded up the
ECK initiations so that the
promise of God-Realization
in This Lifetime can be fulfilled?

Why were the EK initiations
"slowed down" in the first
place? Wasn't HK claiming
the initiations were "slowed
down" because of Darwin's
past involvement with promoting
500 EKists to the 5th before
he was excommunicated? So,
what's been the excuse since
Klemp guided them to become
real/full 5ths? And, DG promoting
these 500 5ths didn't or shouldn't
have affected the 6ths, 7ths,
or 8th initiations! Klemp has
been using this as an excuse
Not to promote for all of these
years! This is subterfuge!

Where's the Master's promise
of "protection" to chelas too?
Instead, the excuse is that it's
a "test" of faith (for H.I.s),
or Karma and maybe a minor
"test" for chelas (lower initiates).

Here's a quote from HK's
Eckankar Lexicon:

"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane
of GOD-REALIZATION where
Soul learns GOD-KNOWLEDGE;
the EIGHTH PLANE. The sound
is of a thousand violins; the
word is Aluk. HIGHEST STATE
SOUL GENERALLY REACHES;
the first realm created that
IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS, SOULS,
and ENTITIES for DWELLING."
[page. 91]

Thus, "Souls," "Beings," and
"Entities" "Generally Reach
and Dwell" on this 8th Plane
via the 8th Initiation.

BTW- Who are these "Beings"
and "Entities" that the 8th
Plane is "Available To?"

Notice that HK states that
Soul "Generally Reaches" the
"8th Plane." Does that include
all Souls, or just those paying
that Annual ECKankar Membership
Donation/Fee? it's unclear isn't
it? However, HK's Eckankar Lexicon
doesn't require an EK Membership
I.D. to purchase it... thus, it's
for the public too. One has to
assume that HK is speaking "in
general" terms and that this includes
all Souls, Beings, and Entities
whoever or whatever they are!

Yes, who are these "Beings" and
"Entities" that Klemp is including?

However, since ECKists are special
since they have a "Mahanta" why is
it that they aren't growing by leaps
and bounds with "Higher" Initiations?
Is this a paradox or a Catch-22 or
what? IMO it's another Catch-22
"Test!"

Really! Let's think about it.
Why hasn't Klemp handed
out more 8th Initiations? By
my guesstimate there should
be at least 3,000 8th Initiates
by now!

I know that this figure sounds
inflated and even impossible!
Most Eckists would be shocked
to see such a high number and
would immediately discount and
deny that such a high number
would be possible. Maybe some
H.I.s would give a nervous laugh
or just say Haw! But, think about
it for awhile. Let it sink in and
consider the possibility. Hasn't
the Consciousness of ECKists,
and Eckankar as a group, expanded
or "evolved" to the point where
there should be 3,000 8th Plane
Initiates?

Reread the above definition for
HUKIKAT LOK that is, also, in
Twitchell's (1973) Eckankar
Dictionary. Except, in Twitchell's
Eckankar Dictionary PT stated
this:

"HUKIKAT LOK. The plane of
God-Realization where Soul
learns God-knowledge, the
eighth plane." [pg. 62]

Thus Klemp added the following
to PT's HUKIKAT LOK definition
in his 1998 EK Lexicon:

"The sound is of a thousand
violins; the word is Aluk.
HIGHEST STATE SOUL GENERALLY
REACHES; the first realm created
that IS AVAILABLE TO BEINGS,
SOULS, and ENTITIES for DWELLING."

Anyway, isn't one of the big
promises of Eckankar that of
reaching Spiritual Freedom and
Self-Mastery, in This Lifetime,
via the ECK Initiations that are
seen as "yardsticks" to Higher
Consciousness? Sure it is!

So, where are all of those 8th
Initiations? Klemp is just selfish
and time is running out for him
and others. He, or someone, needs
to make restitution and keep those
promises, at least, with the 8th
Initiation which equates to God-
Realization! Even if Klemp can't
protect the health and well being
of his, DG's and PT's initiates
he could at least promote and
give ECKists the 8th Initiation.

If it's too much for Klemp (the
LEM/Mahanta) to handle alone
he can designate some of the
responsibility to Rebazar and
the other EK Masters. Therefore,
there really shouldn't be any more
delays or excuses. Promote them
now!

Prometheus
p.s. It's really too bad that there
can't be an honest and open discussion
about this. ECKists are instructed
to "surrender" and "serve" with
detachment and are to keep "silent"
and not to "second guess" the LEM/
Mahanta. But, isn't this how religions
have always maintained control
over their followers? What does
Klemp have to fear? It's the "Truth"
that he fears and this is why HK
relies upon the RESA police hierarchy,
with their positions of authority,
to surpress their fellow 7th Initiates.

******
Some European Countries
Protect Their Citizens From
the Cults of ECKankar and
Scientology.

I saw where the French office
of the Church of Scientology
sect got into trouble for fraud.

Is it possible that Eckankar
could be next? Apparently
Eckankar and Scientology
are listed as "sects/cults"
in many European countries
(France, Belgium, Germany,
etc.). These sects, like Scientology
and Eckankar, don't have the
legal status of main stream
religions, nor do they have
the same benefits under their
laws.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/27/church-of-scientology-con_n_335063.html


The question is:

What could be regarded as fraud?

Would the Annual EK Membership
Donation/Fee that promises
enlightenment (God-Realization),
via the 8th initiation for most
Eckists in this lifetime, as well
as, the "Protections" of the Master
for all chelas (that never happens)
be considered as Fraud? Klemp
slowed these initiations down
due to Darwin's involvement,
but that's been a long time ago!

Look at all of the ECKists
who have died of or have
contracted Cancer and other
diseases! Yet, Klemp (the
Master) promises them
"Protection!"

And, look at HK's "promises"
to chelas and H.I.s involving
God-Realization in this lifetime
and yet he doesn't offer enough
Higher Initiations to fullfil his
promises! And, maintaining
one's initiations is directly tied
into the Annual EK Membership
Donation Fee.

Thus, the taking of money by
Klemp, and Eckankar, for EK
Discourses and EK Memberships
and the making of False Promises
to chelas for this present lifetime
constitutes Fraud even though
this isn't illegal in the U.S. for
religions to make false promises.
However, it is unethical and
amoral at the very least! It does
give "hope" to the disillusioned,
disenfranchised, fearful, and needy,
but isn't Eckankar supposed to
be the best and highest path to
help these Souls on earth, as well
as, in heaven? Why then aren't the
"promises" of the Master a reality
in the physical instead of always
being a KAL test or Karma?

However, under most European
Laws would this failure to deliver
be considered to be fraudulent
enough to be classified as a crime
against the public? It seems so!

It could be that under the laws
of certain European countries that
Eckankar (a religious Sect) could
be found Guilty of Fraud IF an Eckist,
or former Eckist, decided to be
refunded the sums of their Annual
EK Membership Donation Fees,
and Eckankar denied the refunds.

Maybe some former or current
German, French, and Belgium
Eckists will consider asking Eckankar
for a refund for the sum of their
EK Memberships over the years!


Will Eckankar follow Scientology?

******

Here's an excerpt of the definition
of Fraud from Black's Law Dictionary
(1991):

"FRAUD. An intentional perversion
of truth for the purpose of inducing
another in reliance upon it to part
with some valuable thing belonging
to him or to surrender a legal right...

[A Required/Requested Annual
Membership Donation $$$$$$]

Elements of a cause of action for
'fraud' include false representation
of a present or past fact made by
the defendant, action in reliance
thereupon by plaintiff, and damage
resulting to plaintiff from such
misrepresentation... As distinguished
from negligence, it is always
positive, intentional. It comprises
all acts, omissions, and concealments
involving a breach of a legal or
equitable duty and resulting in
damage to another. And includes
anything calculated to deceive,
whether it be a single act or
combination of circumstances...
Fraud, as applied to contracts,
is the cause of an error bearing
on a material part of the contract,
created or contained by artifice,
with design to obtain some unjust
advantage to one party, or to cause
an inconvenience or loss to the other."


Thus, Eckankar has conducted a
fraud of misrepresentation since
it doesn't deliver on the Higher
Initiations ["omissions"] required
to attain God-Realization! [Refer
to the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book
2, Chapter 12.]

Klemp, as the LEM/M, has an implied
"contract" with his followers, but
he only makes empty promises
and does not fulfill his obligations,
and yet he's ready and willing to take
Eckists' hard earned money!

And, let's look at Eckankar's
"concealment" regarding Twitchell's
plagiarisms, and that Klemp continues
to cover-up these facts.

Thus, Eckankar, and all religions,
sects, and cults (unless proven to be
guilty of higher crimes) basically have
carte blanche,' in the U.S., and can
make false promises for money.

What a scam! Eckists have been paying
for their initiations for years but have
been locked-out of those required for
God-Realization!

It's no wonder that Twit followed L. Ron's
lead. However, in Belgium, France and
Germany these cults and sects don't
have the same protection as "religions"
do. This is what the U.S. should have
done 50 years ago!

Prometheus

I heard that there is a focus on Laughter. So I guess we'll have to put up with
a lot of fake Laughter as well. Something about how healing Laughter is.
Actually, I do feel that laughter can be healing, but only if it is sincere. If
I go to a movie that is supposed to be a comedy, I do not laugh at everything
just because someone told me it is supposed to be funny. Having a sense of humor
is good too, but not sick humor. I can't wait to see the next eck worship
service attempt at humor, and everyone laughing because they have been told to.

How many eckankarists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

The answer is ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .....

Non eckster ; )

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I had a report from some Eckists
> attending the recent 2009 EWWS
> that they were startled as to Klemp's
> appearance and overall health. They
> said that his hands appeared shaky
> and he seemed to be very fragile and
> frail looking (thin) and had lost more
> hair and that what little hair (combed
> over) there was appeared to be a
> very dull grey colour.
>
> Has anyone else had any reports?
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Non and All,
If Klemp is/was talking about
"laughter and healing" in his
recent Seminar talk he probably
got the idea from an Eastern
religious sect.

Using laughter to heal and/or
to maintain health is not an original
idea for Klemp (the LEM/M). IF this
would have been Eckists would have
heard about it before now and there
would have been "laughing" EK spiritual
exercises (S.E.s).

HK's a wannabe like Twitchell.
PT knew that he had to create a
"saviour" image for himself in order
to be remembered as an "historic"
figure and because people needed
someone greater than themselves
to believe in. Thus, PT & HK benefit
from the lies and delusion as much
as their needy followers do.

Anyway, I either saw a news report
or a "Believe It or Not" segment on
TV over a year ago that showed a
group of people in India practicing
this Laughing Yoga technique.

Below is a site for this California
based Guru that is probably older
than Klemp, but appears more
positive, energetic, and younger
looking. These are yoga exercises
to help make you happy and healthy.
One just imagines "as if." If you
can dream it you can do it!

Click on the "play" button to
watch the video.

http://www.yogacards.com/laughing-yoga.html

BTW- It was interesting to read
about this Guru guy and see that
he's appeared on TV programs
on the major networks. And, he
has an on-going show!

What has Klemp ever done to
recently promote the EK teachings
himself other than a couple of
talks in MN. per year and his
crappy redundant books, or
promoting his old videos with
his younger image and old message?

Why hasn't HK appeared on
major TV networks and why
doesn't he have a weekly show?

Klemp talks the talk but doesn't
walk the walk! He wants others
to do it for him while being removed
from it all... why do Eckists need
a "LEM" like this? Most don't!

Prometheus


"Non" wrote:

I heard that there is a focus
on Laughter.

So I guess we'll have to put
up with a lot of fake Laughter
as well.

Something about how healing
Laughter is.

Actually, I do feel that laughter can
be healing, but only if it is sincere.
If I go to a movie that is supposed
to be a comedy, I do not laugh at
everything just because someone
told me it is supposed to be funny.
Having a sense of humor is good
too, but not sick humor. I can't wait
to see the next eck worship service
attempt at humor, and everyone
laughing because they have been
told to.

How many eckankarists does
it take to screw in a light bulb?

The answer is ha ha ha ha ha
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .....

Non eckster ; )

prometheus wrote:

Hello All,
I had a report from some Eckists
attending the recent 2009 EWWS
that they were startled as to Klemp's
appearance and overall health. They
said that his hands appeared shaky
and he seemed to be very fragile and
frail looking (thin) and had lost more
hair and that what little hair (combed
over) there was appeared to be a
very dull grey colour.

Has anyone else had any reports?

Prometheus