Klemp is vain! This is why his Wisdom
Notes picture has not been updated to
show how old he really looks. This is just
more proof that Klemp is Not a real Master.
A real Master wouldn't display such vanity
by overseeing the printing of an earlier
picture that makes him look years younger
than he actually is! When will ECKists see
an updated picture showing a really old
and grey Klemp on the Wisdom Notes page?

BTW- I'm told that there were No Blue
Flowers in the vase next to Klemp when
he gave his talk on stage at the 2008 ECK
Worldwide Seminar. Cut Blue Flowers are
the symbol of the Mahanta. The rumor is
that the ECK did this to show chelas that
Klemp has lost the Mahanta Consciousness!

Prometheus

Prometheus, from what I gather after reading some posts by H.I's,
Klemp's talk was the usual ton of stories sent in by eckists. A number
of H.I.'s complained of the high cost of the internet broadcast in
video or audio format. Others said the seminar costs had gone up too.

The interesting part was how they searched to find justification for
the high costs and the tons of stories. Their loyalty to Klemp
remained resolute.

We're basically looking at a religion in which most of the members
want to be spoon fed whatever Klemp feels like dishing out.

I predicted that Klemp would not let anybody take any leadership
position (including his wife) that would threaten his own. I'm now
going to dust off my crystal ball and make another prediction.

Klemp will remain as the head of Eckankar until he dies. As he gets
older, eckists will become even more attached to him. He will appear
as the lovable wise old sage. We've seen this happen with other guru
oriented paths such as Sant Mat.

On the other hand, the Eckankar population is pretty old now with
hardly any young people interested in joining. Also, the children of
the old folks don't want to follow a dogmatic way out religion like
Eckankar. They can see all the negative stuff about it on the Internet.

Eckankar realizes that young people aren't joining so there's a push
to promote it in 3rd world countries where people are more ignorant
and have less access to the Internet. The trouble with that is in 3rd
world countries people don't have the kind of money that Eckankar needs.

So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will probably die out with Klemp's
passing.

Regards
Liska

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> Back in 1981 I was one of many who
> welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
> actually, it was nice to think we would,
> now, have two ECK Masters!
>
> Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
> at first, because he looked like a wimp and
> had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
>
> However, sometime around 1990 things,
> for me, started to change. I noticed more
> and more redundancy, and those simple
> minded one dimensional stories started
> to bring back that initial embarrassment
> I experienced back in 1981. Except now
> the embarrassment was with Klemp's
> words and level of communication.
>
> True, there were those building projects
> and all of those books he was writing and
> all of those leadership trainings and intros
> and Regional seminars we had to plan and
> those local EK centers we had to try to keep
> open while planning the monthly EWS and
> Satsang classes and book discussions and
> roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
> But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
> all chelas really have are two things- their
> initiations and their imaginations.
>
> Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
> begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
> many are caught up in playing a role for both
> themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
> and needs power and a social environment.
> ECKankar has become a very comfortable
> religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
>
> 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
> accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
> the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
> Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
> and final stage for that initiation on the outer
> as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
> ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
> of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
> ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
> blind and closed minded in order to protect
> themselves from the truth. They need to do
> this in order to have religion work for them.
>
> Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
> and expectations. They've become complacent,
> but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
> what they originally bought into, years ago, is
> still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
> chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
> for years and years of training they will see
> that they really have nothing except a number
> on a membership card. And, that's a membership
> that has to be renewed every year... even the
> lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
> year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
> isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
> will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
> Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
>
> Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
> does he? He never takes responsibility for
> anything bad, but seems to like credit for
> the good. Where have we seen this before?
> Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
> It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
> Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
> other lower plane teaching.
>
> HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
> isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
> ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
> But, where is that protection from disease?
> With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
> Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
> on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
> fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
> When HK is supposed to be the "highest
> consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
> lowered their standards?
>
> I think that the lowering of standards was
> a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
> has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
> years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
> Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
> and has created a different kind of ECKankar
> based around himself, his old Christian religion
> and upon his opinions.
>
> Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
> What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
> Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
> can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> etznab wrote:
> Liska,
>
> Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
> of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
> outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
>
> Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
> Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
>
> http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
>
> where the quote
>
> "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
> of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
> simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
> truths he was trying to share..."
>
> appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
> Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
> seven paragraphs by Doug.
>
> Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
>
> Look at David's question which preceded all that.
>
> David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
> that Paul was misleading his reading audience
> because he used the words of other writers for
> some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
> was my impression of it.
>
> I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
> "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
> David asked there? [My particular question was
> more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
> Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
> does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
> words from books by other authors were used to
> "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
> seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
>
> Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
> really make history and come out on top if only
> it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
> actual truth. It would be a first among religions
> and a shining example to the rest of the world
> if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
>
> Harold appeared to move in that direction years
> ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
> after which he said (transcript version):
>
> ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
> ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
> in the Mahanta�"but not at the expense of making
> a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
> ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
> soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
> fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
> We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
> ment. ...."
>
> [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
> Klemp - see link]
>
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal�
>
> It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
> have questions are coming from. And I know what it
> is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
> more sensitive questions about religious history my-
> self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
> everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
> that others don't want to "go there".
>
> So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
> path is to become more of an individual and not be
> like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
> and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
> of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
> an individual having a mind and conscience of your
> own).
>
> It's not just a matter of What would happen to
> Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
> knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
> place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
> followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
> like.)
>
> How long do you think religion and spiritual
> paths have been subject to "organization" and
> founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
> legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
> thousands of years, and still the actual truths
> continue to evade millions of people because
> the authorities are basing their information on
> the information of others, based on others &
> others ... and others ... and others.
>
> If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
> time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
> labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
> people today who claim to know the truth be-
> cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
> is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
> and heads of religions officiate church dogma
> for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
> it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
> clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
> ask the sensitive questions and see where it
> gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
> truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
> "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
> vehicle". IMHO.
>
> Etznab
>

Hi Liska and All,
I, too, have heard stories from recent
Seminar attendees. They have returned
home somewhat depressed or sick, but
then felt the need to rationalize the negative
effects. This is denial because, normally,
ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
least a few days, but Not this time!

Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
more nonsensical and more devoid of
spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
is getting more and more mundane as
he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
ECKists probably thought he looked buff
or had gained some weight due to the tight
fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
proof vest!

Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
Satsang or EK functions and they don't
read ECK materials on a regular basis.
Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
that show they are looking for short cuts.
They want to be spoon-fed things that it
took most to discover via effort.

Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
needs to believe everything that is promised
and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
in order to make basic decisions for their
and their family's life. Their Religion has
become a crutch that they have come to
rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
has been caged by dogma and false promises.
The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
Those chelas in this Second Group have become
even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
first group they use their "imaginations" and
"scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
they once had when they began their spiritual
search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
doesn't need a religion! What's even more
amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
social connections, and that ego doesn't want
to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
these people are fearful and lazy. They need
to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
same effect that keeps the followers for the
other religions in the world!

True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
but Klemp and Company haven't earned
the increase in costs! What makes the
ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
much effort is needed to promote it?
What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
they have joined? They get to read Old
Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
and work (serve) toward more initiations.
The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
of Free Will and critical thinking.

Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
"Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
that "Change is Change," but where's the
CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
the new, younger, energized, charismatic
LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
after the fall,  thanks to those "donations"
and book sales!

Prometheus

drubezarne wrote:
Prometheus, from what I gather after
reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
talk was the usual ton of stories sent
in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
of the high cost of the internet broadcast
in video or audio format. Others said
the seminar costs had gone up too.

The interesting part was how they
searched to find justification for
the high costs and the tons of stories.
Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.

We're basically looking at a religion
in which most of the members
want to be spoon fed whatever
Klemp feels like dishing out.

I predicted that Klemp would not
let anybody take any leadership
position (including his wife) that
would threaten his own. I'm now
going to dust off my crystal ball
and make another prediction.

Klemp will remain as the head
of Eckankar until he dies. As he
gets older, eckists will become
even more attached to him. He
will appear as the lovable wise
old sage. We've seen this happen
with other guru oriented paths
such as Sant Mat.

On the other hand, the Eckankar
population is pretty old now with
hardly any young people interested
in joining. Also, the children of
the old folks don't want to follow
a dogmatic way out religion like
Eckankar. They can see all the
negative stuff about it on the Internet.

Eckankar realizes that young people
aren't joining so there's a push
to promote it in 3rd world countries
where people are more ignorant
and have less access to the Internet.
The trouble with that is in 3rd
world countries people don't have
the kind of money that Eckankar needs.

So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
probably die out with Klemp's passing.

Regards
Liska

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> Back in 1981 I was one of many who
> welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
> actually, it was nice to think we would,
> now, have two ECK Masters!
>
> Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
> at first, because he looked like a wimp and
> had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
>
> However, sometime around 1990 things,
> for me, started to change. I noticed more
> and more redundancy, and those simple
> minded one dimensional stories started
> to bring back that initial embarrassment
> I experienced back in 1981. Except now
> the embarrassment was with Klemp's
> words and level of communication.
>
> True, there were those building projects
> and all of those books he was writing and
> all of those leadership trainings and intros
> and Regional seminars we had to plan and
> those local EK centers we had to try to keep
> open while planning the monthly EWS and
> Satsang classes and book discussions and
> roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
> But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
> all chelas really have are two things- their
> initiations and their imaginations.
>
> Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
> begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
> many are caught up in playing a role for both
> themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
> and needs power and a social environment.
> ECKankar has become a very comfortable
> religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
>
> 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
> accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
> the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
> Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
> and final stage for that initiation on the outer
> as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
> ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
> of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
> ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
> blind and closed minded in order to protect
> themselves from the truth. They need to do
> this in order to have religion work for them.
>
> Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
> and expectations. They've become complacent,
> but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
> what they originally bought into, years ago, is
> still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
> chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
> for years and years of training they will see
> that they really have nothing except a number
> on a membership card. And, that's a membership
> that has to be renewed every year... even the
> lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
> year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
> isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
> will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
> Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
>
> Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
> does he? He never takes responsibility for
> anything bad, but seems to like credit for
> the good. Where have we seen this before?
> Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
> It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
> Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
> other lower plane teaching.
>
> HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
> isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
> ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
> But, where is that protection from disease?
> With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
> Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
> on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
> fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
> When HK is supposed to be the "highest
> consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
> lowered their standards?
>
> I think that the lowering of standards was
> a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
> has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
> years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
> Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
> and has created a different kind of ECKankar
> based around himself, his old Christian religion
> and upon his opinions.
>
> Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
> What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
> Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
> can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello All,
Are the Metal Detectors (for HK's talk)
and Searches and Checked Bags for the
Temple and ESC Tours still necessary?
Why?

These security precautions were, originally,
in response to the 9/11/2001 Terrorist
Attacks. Why has Klemp continued this
Fear Mongering search policy?

Why is HK still wearing a Bullet Proof Vest
and has Armed Body Guards when 9/11
was a Terrorist Attack against this Country
and Not against Klemp personally!

Klemp's paranoia is proof that he's Not
a Master! Do these security efforts make
ECKists feel safer? Perhaps, especially
during HK's talk. But, isn't the Mahanta
supposed to "protect" chelas anyway and
at all times? But, why can't the Mahanta
"protect" himself? Even if HK was shot or
blown up by Terrorists... wouldn't that be
part of his Karmic Mission?

Why then, is Klemp fearful of his own
death? Talk is cheap isn't it! Klemp can't
walk the walk!

What are the chances of Terrorists attacking
Klemp and Company? Really! What are the
chances? I'll bet there's a greater chance of
being struck by lightening or attacked by a
shark!

Once again, Why do ECKists Not See what
is right in front of them? It seems to be the
blind leading the blind when Chelas say
nothing about those Metal Detectors or
Searches. Don't think that Klemp knows
nothing about these security precautions,
after all, he's the Mahanta isn't he! Thus,
if he didn't know he wouldn't be much of
a Mahanta would he! Either way, Klemp is
Not who or what he claims. It's so obvious!

Prometheus


Prometheus Wrote:

I forgot to ask if Klemp still has his minions
checking bags for the EK Temple and ESC
tours? Does one get off the bus and still
have their Bags Searched and Checked?

I actually thought that the Metal Detectors
at the main hall on Sat. night and searches
at the EK Temple in Oct. 2001 were strange
for ECKists to be put through. It seemed to
be a knee-jerk reaction to fear. However,
I, also, thought that it was only temporary!

To see these policies continue after all these
years really makes me wonder WHY?

Is Klemp so paranoid and egotistical that he
needs all of these precautions and defenses?
Yes, it seems so!

Really, why would someone want to assassinate
Klemp? He's a loser! This just shows how
mentally unstable Klemp really is! Yet, HK's
nutty and paranoid Seminar behavior has
now become "normal" operating procedure.
Why don't ECKists ever question this? Or,
are they afraid to? Sure they are! And who would
be listening anyway? Probably someone who
would, also, be writing their name on a list.

But, are other EK speakers or performers given
Bullet Proof Vests to wear? Are there Metal
Detectors on Friday night or during the day?
No! Of course not! It's all for old paranoid Klemp!

Really, the proof is in the pudding! How can
Klemp be what he claims when he is so fearful!
Think about it! This is real undeniable proof!
It is factual! It is real! Those Metal Detectors
and the Searches at the Temple and ESC are
proof of Klemp's fear! One might question
whether HK has a Bullet Proof Vest on or has
Armed Body Guards, but there's no rationalizing
the other proof, or is there! Denial isn't just a
river in Egypt! LOL!

Prometheus


prometheus wrote:

Hello All,
At Minneapolis EK Seminars, since 9/11/2001,
ECKists have been required to go through metal
detectors while Klemp wears a bullet proof vest
and has armed body guards standing near him!

Do ECKists find anything wrong with this picture?

What would Jesus or Gandhi do? Would they have
their followers searched before they were able to
enter a hall to listen to their talk? Would Jesus or
Gandhi be fearful of death and wear a bullet proof
vest and have armed body guards ready to shoot
and kill someone?

And, isn't the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp) supposed to be
so much "higher" and "greater" than Jesus or Gandhi!
It seems the proof doesn't bear this out does it! Klemp
is fearful and is losing his mind (via fear & ego) more
and more each day. He's afraid to promote Joan to
the 12th and afraid to anoint a new LEM!

I've heard some comments about the 2008 EWWS,
but I'm not all that interested in Klemp's nonsense.
If I was all that interested in what he had to say
I would have paid my $30 and taped the talk! But,
why should I? It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Klemp
never says anything that is new or interesting. HK's
pep talks are dumbed down because Klemp's
consciousness isn't above that of a 2nd initiate!

Almost any H.I. could prepare and give a better
talk than Klemp's! Just put a Klemp mask on
someone and introduce him as the Mahanta the
Living ECK Master and viola! If the person's voice
doesn't sound quite like Klemp's then he could
attribute this to a food allergy which was the
result of taking on more Karma for his chelas!
LOL!

Prometheus

Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program to get newcomers to
sign up faster. When a newcomer comes to a presentation, they are told
that they can join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts going to a
prearranged class.

Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership continues to try to
justify them. Here are some excuses by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp
doesn't give greater insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul
forum.

Rationale 1

The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
inner.

Rationale 2

We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
interpret them according to our own sensibilities.

Rationale 3

Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.

Rationale 4

Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and deluded
H.I.'s of Eckankar.

Regards
Liska

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Liska and All,
> I, too, have heard stories from recent
> Seminar attendees. They have returned
> home somewhat depressed or sick, but
> then felt the need to rationalize the negative
> effects. This is denial because, normally,
> ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
> least a few days, but Not this time!
>
> Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
> more nonsensical and more devoid of
> spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
> is getting more and more mundane as
> he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
> ECKists probably thought he looked buff
> or had gained some weight due to the tight
> fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
> proof vest!
>
> Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
> to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
> Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
> Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
> ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
> Satsang or EK functions and they don't
> read ECK materials on a regular basis.
> Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
> that show they are looking for short cuts.
> They want to be spoon-fed things that it
> took most to discover via effort.
>
> Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
> This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
> needs to believe everything that is promised
> and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
> in order to make basic decisions for their
> and their family's life. Their Religion has
> become a crutch that they have come to
> rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
> has been caged by dogma and false promises.
> The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
> Those chelas in this Second Group have become
> even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
> first group they use their "imaginations" and
> "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
> onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
> they once had when they began their spiritual
> search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
> ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
> doesn't need a religion! What's even more
> amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
> as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
> a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
> social connections, and that ego doesn't want
> to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
> these people are fearful and lazy. They need
> to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
> same effect that keeps the followers for the
> other religions in the world!
>
> True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
> but Klemp and Company haven't earned
> the increase in costs! What makes the
> ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
> much effort is needed to promote it?
> What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
> they have joined? They get to read Old
> Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
> and work (serve) toward more initiations.
> The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
> of Free Will and critical thinking.
>
> Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
> "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
> that "Change is Change," but where's the
> CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
> the new, younger, energized, charismatic
> LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
> there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
> him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
> and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
> destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
> Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
> after the fall,  thanks to those "donations"
> and book sales!
>
> Prometheus
>
> drubezarne wrote:
> Prometheus, from what I gather after
> reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
> talk was the usual ton of stories sent
> in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
> of the high cost of the internet broadcast
> in video or audio format. Others said
> the seminar costs had gone up too.
>
> The interesting part was how they
> searched to find justification for
> the high costs and the tons of stories.
> Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.
>
> We're basically looking at a religion
> in which most of the members
> want to be spoon fed whatever
> Klemp feels like dishing out.
>
> I predicted that Klemp would not
> let anybody take any leadership
> position (including his wife) that
> would threaten his own. I'm now
> going to dust off my crystal ball
> and make another prediction.
>
> Klemp will remain as the head
> of Eckankar until he dies. As he
> gets older, eckists will become
> even more attached to him. He
> will appear as the lovable wise
> old sage. We've seen this happen
> with other guru oriented paths
> such as Sant Mat.
>
> On the other hand, the Eckankar
> population is pretty old now with
> hardly any young people interested
> in joining. Also, the children of
> the old folks don't want to follow
> a dogmatic way out religion like
> Eckankar. They can see all the
> negative stuff about it on the Internet.
>
> Eckankar realizes that young people
> aren't joining so there's a push
> to promote it in 3rd world countries
> where people are more ignorant
> and have less access to the Internet.
> The trouble with that is in 3rd
> world countries people don't have
> the kind of money that Eckankar needs.
>
> So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
> probably die out with Klemp's passing.
>
> Regards
> Liska
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
> > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
> > actually, it was nice to think we would,
> > now, have two ECK Masters!
> >
> > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
> > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
> > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
> >
> > However, sometime around 1990 things,
> > for me, started to change. I noticed more
> > and more redundancy, and those simple
> > minded one dimensional stories started
> > to bring back that initial embarrassment
> > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
> > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
> > words and level of communication.
> >
> > True, there were those building projects
> > and all of those books he was writing and
> > all of those leadership trainings and intros
> > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
> > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
> > open while planning the monthly EWS and
> > Satsang classes and book discussions and
> > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
> > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
> > all chelas really have are two things- their
> > initiations and their imaginations.
> >
> > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
> > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
> > many are caught up in playing a role for both
> > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
> > and needs power and a social environment.
> > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
> > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
> >
> > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
> > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
> > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
> > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
> > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
> > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
> > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
> > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
> > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
> > blind and closed minded in order to protect
> > themselves from the truth. They need to do
> > this in order to have religion work for them.
> >
> > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
> > and expectations. They've become complacent,
> > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
> > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
> > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
> > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
> > for years and years of training they will see
> > that they really have nothing except a number
> > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
> > that has to be renewed every year... even the
> > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
> > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
> > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
> > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
> > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
> >
> > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
> > does he? He never takes responsibility for
> > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
> > the good. Where have we seen this before?
> > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
> > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
> > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
> > other lower plane teaching.
> >
> > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
> > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
> > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
> > But, where is that protection from disease?
> > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
> > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
> > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
> > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
> > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
> > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
> > lowered their standards?
> >
> > I think that the lowering of standards was
> > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
> > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
> > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
> > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
> > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
> > based around himself, his old Christian religion
> > and upon his opinions.
> >
> > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
> > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
> > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
> > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>

Hello Liska and All,
Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
people up quickly while they're off their
meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
might have more members, but the main
focus is upon new membership numbers
versus keeping people. The initiation game
with their religious/psychic promises are
what really attracts people and maintains
the membership numbers.

Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
20 or more years ago would be more appealing
than Klemp's current message. Not really!

As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
while appearing to maintain his connection with
Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
DM's making some money writing his books and
is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
that happens.

Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
that older plagiarized material would be a better
read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!

BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
Should money and a personal bank account be
important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
with the lilies in the field.

Prometheus

drubezarne wrote:
Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
going to a prearranged class.

Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.

Rationale 1

The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
can work with them on the inner.

Rationale 2

We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
Then we have to interpret them according to our own
sensibilities.

Rationale 3

Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
to new insights.

Rationale 4

Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.

Regards
Liska

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hi Liska and All,
> I, too, have heard stories from recent
> Seminar attendees. They have returned
> home somewhat depressed or sick, but
> then felt the need to rationalize the negative
> effects. This is denial because, normally,
> ECKists are on a Seminar "high" for at
> least a few days, but Not this time!
>
> Apparently, Klemp's talk was even
> more nonsensical and more devoid of
> spirituality than usual! Klemp's "message"
> is getting more and more mundane as
> he seems to age before one's eyes! Some
> ECKists probably thought he looked buff
> or had gained some weight due to the tight
> fit of his suit, but that was just his bullet
> proof vest!
>
> Yes, there are a lot of ECKists that need
> to be Spoon Fed (non&former-EKists too).
> Usually, there are Two Types of these Spoon-
> Fed Types. The one type is not an "active"
> ECKist. They don't volunteer or attend
> Satsang or EK functions and they don't
> read ECK materials on a regular basis.
> Yet, when they do show up they ask questions
> that show they are looking for short cuts.
> They want to be spoon-fed things that it
> took most to discover via effort.
>
> Then, there is the Second Spoon-Fed type.
> This Second Type is the ECK Leader who
> needs to believe everything that is promised
> and relies upon "inner" direction or "signs"
> in order to make basic decisions for their
> and their family's life. Their Religion has
> become a crutch that they have come to
> rely on. Their Souls' independence and freedom
> has been caged by dogma and false promises.
> The spiritual strength of Soul has atrophied.
> Those chelas in this Second Group have become
> even more Co-Dependent, but unlike the
> first group they use their "imaginations" and
> "scripture" and "magical thinking" to hang
> onto that sense of feeling and wonder that
> they once had when they began their spiritual
> search. They can't admit (or ego can't) that
> ECKankar was the wrong choice and that Soul
> doesn't need a religion! What's even more
> amazing is that those H.I.s who see themselves
> as being "advanced" Souls, still, seem to need
> a Religion to Follow! WHY? I think it's those
> social connections, and that ego doesn't want
> to give up those "outer" initiations, and that
> these people are fearful and lazy. They need
> to be Spoon-Fed because it's easy. This is the
> same effect that keeps the followers for the
> other religions in the world!
>
> True, the costs for Chelas have gone up,
> but Klemp and Company haven't earned
> the increase in costs! What makes the
> ECKankar Church so wonderful that so
> much effort is needed to promote it?
> What does ECKankar do for chelas "after"
> they have joined? They get to read Old
> Lower Plane Discourses, buy EK merchandise,
> and work (serve) toward more initiations.
> The real "Key to ECKankar" is the "surrender"
> of Free Will and critical thinking.
>
> Yes, Klemp, it seems, is fearful to make a
> "Change." It's ironic that last year he stated
> that "Change is Change," but where's the
> CHANGE? Where's Joan's 12th and where's
> the new, younger, energized, charismatic
> LEM? Klemp can't let go of his Power and
> there is nobody in ECKankar that can make
> him let it go! It's very sad for these ECKists,
> and I have no doubt that Klemp will, eventually,
> destroy it all... but not to worry! Harry and
> Joan and Peter will be well taken care of,
> after the fall, thanks to those "donations"
> and book sales!
>
> Prometheus
>
> drubezarne wrote:
> Prometheus, from what I gather after
> reading some posts by H.I's, Klemp's
> talk was the usual ton of stories sent
> in by eckists. A number of H.I.'s complained
> of the high cost of the internet broadcast
> in video or audio format. Others said
> the seminar costs had gone up too.
>
> The interesting part was how they
> searched to find justification for
> the high costs and the tons of stories.
> Their loyalty to Klemp remained resolute.
>
> We're basically looking at a religion
> in which most of the members
> want to be spoon fed whatever
> Klemp feels like dishing out.
>
> I predicted that Klemp would not
> let anybody take any leadership
> position (including his wife) that
> would threaten his own. I'm now
> going to dust off my crystal ball
> and make another prediction.
>
> Klemp will remain as the head
> of Eckankar until he dies. As he
> gets older, eckists will become
> even more attached to him. He
> will appear as the lovable wise
> old sage. We've seen this happen
> with other guru oriented paths
> such as Sant Mat.
>
> On the other hand, the Eckankar
> population is pretty old now with
> hardly any young people interested
> in joining. Also, the children of
> the old folks don't want to follow
> a dogmatic way out religion like
> Eckankar. They can see all the
> negative stuff about it on the Internet.
>
> Eckankar realizes that young people
> aren't joining so there's a push
> to promote it in 3rd world countries
> where people are more ignorant
> and have less access to the Internet.
> The trouble with that is in 3rd
> world countries people don't have
> the kind of money that Eckankar needs.
>
> So, there's hope, yet. Eckankar will
> probably die out with Klemp's passing.
>
> Regards
> Liska
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
> > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
> > actually, it was nice to think we would,
> > now, have two ECK Masters!
> >
> > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
> > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
> > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
> >
> > However, sometime around 1990 things,
> > for me, started to change. I noticed more
> > and more redundancy, and those simple
> > minded one dimensional stories started
> > to bring back that initial embarrassment
> > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
> > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
> > words and level of communication.
> >
> > True, there were those building projects
> > and all of those books he was writing and
> > all of those leadership trainings and intros
> > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
> > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
> > open while planning the monthly EWS and
> > Satsang classes and book discussions and
> > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
> > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
> > all chelas really have are two things- their
> > initiations and their imaginations.
> >
> > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
> > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
> > many are caught up in playing a role for both
> > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
> > and needs power and a social environment.
> > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
> > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
> >
> > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
> > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
> > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
> > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
> > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
> > as confirmation many 7ths see themselves as
> > ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
> > of a pink slip. They delude themselves on an
> > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
> > blind and closed minded in order to protect
> > themselves from the truth. They need to do
> > this in order to have religion work for them.
> >
> > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
> > and expectations. They've become complacent,
> > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
> > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
> > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
> > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
> > for years and years of training they will see
> > that they really have nothing except a number
> > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
> > that has to be renewed every year... even the
> > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
> > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
> > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
> > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
> > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
> >
> > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
> > does he? He never takes responsibility for
> > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
> > the good. Where have we seen this before?
> > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
> > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
> > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
> > other lower plane teaching.
> >
> > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
> > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
> > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
> > But, where is that protection from disease?
> > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
> > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
> > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
> > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
> > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
> > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
> > lowered their standards?
> >
> > I think that the lowering of standards was
> > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
> > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
> > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
> > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
> > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
> > based around himself, his old Christian religion
> > and upon his opinions.
> >
> > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
> > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
> > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
> > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >

Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
already retired.

Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
never underestimate the power of the ego.

We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

Regards
Liska



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Liska and All,
> Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
> people up quickly while they're off their
> meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
> keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
> might have more members, but the main
> focus is upon new membership numbers
> versus keeping people. The initiation game
> with their religious/psychic promises are
> what really attracts people and maintains
> the membership numbers.
>
> Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
> 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
> than Klemp's current message. Not really!
>
> As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
> that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
> with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
> while appearing to maintain his connection with
> Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
> DM's making some money writing his books and
> is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
> didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
> pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
> that happens.
>
> Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
> to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
> copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
> Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
> that older plagiarized material would be a better
> read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
>
> BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
> his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
> in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
> money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
> just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
> Should money and a personal bank account be
> important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
> ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
> with the lilies in the field.
>
> Prometheus
>
> drubezarne wrote:
> Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
> to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
> comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
> join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
> discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
> going to a prearranged class.
>
> Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
> continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
> by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
> insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.
>
> Rationale 1
>
> The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
> a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
> can work with them on the inner.
>
> Rationale 2
>
> We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
> Then we have to interpret them according to our own
> sensibilities.
>
> Rationale 3
>
> Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
> So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
> frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
> to new insights.
>
> Rationale 4
>
> Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
> and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
> and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
>
> So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
> deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.
>
> Regards
> Liska

Hello Liska and All,
I agree that Klemp doesn't have
to make much of an effort. HK uses
many of the same brain washing and
fear techniques while using myth,
imagination, and unfulfillable promises
as the rest of the religions do.

As for there being not many people
(including ECKists) reading this site
that's not exactly so. There are people
(including ECKists) that privately contact
members of this forum, and there are
other indications that staffers at the
ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
from other EK sites. And, we've had some
indication that Joan and Harry peek in
every now and then. You'd be surprised.
After all, there's really no other site like
this one because our main focus is on
current happenings in ECKankar and
with Klemp rather than Twitchell.

Also, there was that person doing the
report on the difference between Christianity
and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
leaders we're able to give insights that others
find interesting and can relate to. We can
connect the dots for them.

And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
that next initiation or have as high of a position
within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
climb that ladder.

Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!

Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
(hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!


Prometheus.


drubezarne wrote:
Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
already retired.

Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
never underestimate the power of the ego.

We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.

Regards
Liska



prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Liska and All,
> Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
> people up quickly while they're off their
> meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
> keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
> might have more members, but the main
> focus is upon new membership numbers
> versus keeping people. The initiation game
> with their religious/psychic promises are
> what really attracts people and maintains
> the membership numbers.
>
> Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
> 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
> than Klemp's current message. Not really!
>
> As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
> that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
> with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
> while appearing to maintain his connection with
> Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
> DM's making some money writing his books and
> is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
> didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
> pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
> that happens.
>
> Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
> to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
> copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
> Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
> that older plagiarized material would be a better
> read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
>
> BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
> his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
> in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
> money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
> just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
> Should money and a personal bank account be
> important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
> ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
> with the lilies in the field.
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello, Liska and All!

I agree that Klemp is not likely to ever resign or step down
from being the leader of Eckankar . . . and that is why I have
felt he needed to put Joan in a more leadership role. If you have
the time and don't mind the little expense, I highly recommend
reading  "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" which subtly  lays the
  framework for this plan. I believe discussing this possibility here
on ESA has slowed the process down--after all, how could
non-eckists or former eckists have perceived this on the inner??
It would prove that we are really hot on HK's heels regarding his scam.

I have found it interesting that Klemp has never held a real
job for any length of time. Is that because he was lazy or just crazy?
Eckankar has been a real escape for him and provided a cushy
life for him, fed his delusional ego and allowed him to get away
with meanness and abuse of others--all in the name of being
the highest consciousness known to mankind! LOL!

As for participation and readership on this site, I agree with
Prometheus that there are more people reading by far than ever
post. Many people do not like to write or express themselves so
openly. I have a friends' site, many members, but few actually
post a comment--however, privately, I receive thank you's for
maintaining it. Also, I have received a few private messages
regarding ESA--some sharing private information they don't
want to post openly . . .

I'm sure that we have both favorable and unfavorable readership
as well, but that's okay. Everyone has the right to their own
opinions; everyone has to decide for themselves, etc. I post my
beliefs, observations and experiences--it doesn't mean I'm right
or wrong--I'm just pointing out my perspectives on the cult. I
don't really care who stays or leaves eckankar, but I do care about
presenting the Truth!

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "drubezarne" <drubezarne@...>
wrote:
>
> Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
> Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
> retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
> for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
> stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
> assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
> already retired.
>
> Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
> membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
> Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
> much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
> leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
> most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
> advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
> never underestimate the power of the ego.
>
> We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
> leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
> seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
>
> Regards
> Liska
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Liska and All,
> > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
> > people up quickly while they're off their
> > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
> > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
> > might have more members, but the main
> > focus is upon new membership numbers
> > versus keeping people. The initiation game
> > with their religious/psychic promises are
> > what really attracts people and maintains
> > the membership numbers.
> >
> > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
> > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
> > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
> >
> > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
> > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
> > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
> > while appearing to maintain his connection with
> > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
> > DM's making some money writing his books and
> > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
> > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
> > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
> > that happens.
> >
> > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
> > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
> > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
> > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
> > that older plagiarized material would be a better
> > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
> >
> > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
> > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
> > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
> > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
> > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
> > Should money and a personal bank account be
> > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
> > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
> > with the lilies in the field.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > drubezarne wrote:
> > Hi Prometheus, Eckankar is starting a new program
> > to get newcomers to sign up faster. When a newcomer
> > comes to a presentation, they are told that they can
> > join a study class right away. The newbie then gets the
> > discourse in the mail shortly after signing up and starts
> > going to a prearranged class.
> >
> > Harold Klemp's talks are lame, but the membership
> > continues to try to justify them. Here are some excuses
> > by H.I.'s explaining why Klemp doesn't give greater
> > insights. I saw these on Doug Marman's H.I. soul forum.
> >
> > Rationale 1
> >
> > The stories don't mean anything, because they are just
> > a way for Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he
> > can work with them on the inner.
> >
> > Rationale 2
> >
> > We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols.
> > Then we have to interpret them according to our own
> > sensibilities.
> >
> > Rationale 3
> >
> > Harold has to work with different states of consciousness.
> > So, he has to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely
> > frugal with what he reveals, and very slowly open up people
> > to new insights.
> >
> > Rationale 4
> >
> > Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization
> > and this group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic,
> > and hierarchical system of Eckankar. It's not Harold's fault.
> >
> > So, there you have some of the hopelessly brainwashed and
> > deluded H.I.'s of Eckankar.
> >
> > Regards
> > Liska
>

Prometheus, let's see how many are willing to (in Star Trek lingo)
"de-cloak". If you prefer to e-mail, that's fine too. So, are there
any H.I.'s or former H.I.'s who are unhappy with Eckankar and Harold
Klemp?

What do you think about the way H.I.'s justify Harold Klemp's shallow
talks? Here are the previously posted reasons again.

Rationale 1

The stories don't mean anything, because they are just a way for
Harold to open everyone's hearts so that he can work with them on the
inner.

Rationale 2

We have to look at his stories as dreams with symbols. Then we have to
interpret them according to our own sensibilities.

Rationale 3

Harold has to work with different states of consciousness. So, he has
to keep things simple, be methodical, extremely frugal with what he
reveals, and very slowly open up people to new insights.

Rationale 4

Harold has been usurped by the higher ups in the organization and this
group of people is responsible for the rigid, dogmatic, and
hierarchical system of Eeckankar. It's not Harold's fault.

Regards
Liska

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Liska and All,
> I agree that Klemp doesn't have
> to make much of an effort. HK uses
> many of the same brain washing and
> fear techniques while using myth,
> imagination, and unfulfillable promises
> as the rest of the religions do.
>
> As for there being not many people
> (including ECKists) reading this site
> that's not exactly so. There are people
> (including ECKists) that privately contact
> members of this forum, and there are
> other indications that staffers at the
> ESC read this site, as well as, other ECKists
> from other EK sites. And, we've had some
> indication that Joan and Harry peek in
> every now and then. You'd be surprised.
> After all, there's really no other site like
> this one because our main focus is on
> current happenings in ECKankar and
> with Klemp rather than Twitchell.
>
> Also, there was that person doing the
> report on the difference between Christianity
> and ECKankar. As former members and H.I.
> leaders we're able to give insights that others
> find interesting and can relate to. We can
> connect the dots for them.
>
> And, personally, I find it freeing that I'm able
> to say things NOW that I was forbidden to say
> as a member. Well, it's not like I couldn't say
> certain things, but if I did I wouldn't be getting
> that next initiation or have as high of a position
> within the RESA Hierarchy. Everyone, in time,
> learns to keep silent in order to make rank and
> climb that ladder.
>
> Also, sometimes people just stumble onto this
> site while Googling ECKankar. It's too bad, though,
> that Ford doesn't join in with a pseudo name and
> share some really juicy tidbits of info on Klemp and
> Company. I think that an airing of the dirty laundry
> or a clearing of the air is needed from time to time
> by more H.I.s. It would be a mental health exercise
> of sorts. Yes, I'd like to see more ECKists come to
> this site to share their grievances of ECKankar and
> Klemp, etc. and to get our feedback. We've probably
> had similar experiences and can relate to these frustrated
> ECK H.I.s and vahanas more than Klemp or their RESAs!
>
> Anyone can post a message here IF they are polite
> and don't try to preach their EK crap! We've already
> been there, done that, and bought the tee shirt...
> (hat, coffee mug, and jewelry too)!
>
>
> Prometheus.
>
>
> drubezarne wrote:
> Prometheus, I don't think Klemp will retire in 5 years. He's like the
> Pope and will keep his position until he dies. And why should he
> retire. He hardly does anything. Unlike most of us who have to work
> for a living, he gives a few talks put together by his staff from
> stories sent in by the membership. His books are compilations also
> assembled by his staff. So, what else does he do? In effect, he's
> already retired.
>
> Watching Eckankar is like observing the business of a religion. Its
> membership blindly follows a leader no matter what he says or does.
> Eckankar's promise of spiritual liberation in this lifetime is too
> much of a tempting offer to walk away from. People have a weakness for
> leaders and so Eckankar fills that need. The phony initiations have
> most of them fooled so that they think they are more spiritually
> advanced than others. Besides that they feed the ego and one should
> never underestimate the power of the ego.
>
> We can stand at the sidelines and throw rocks at the cult and its
> leaders, but I don't see that it's doing much good. So far, I've only
> seen one African eckist say they liked what they read on this forum.
>
> Regards
> Liska
>
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello Liska and All,
> > Maybe there's a new Vahana tip to sign
> > people up quickly while they're off their
> > meds! If ECKankar made more effort to
> > keep ECKists "after" they signed up they
> > might have more members, but the main
> > focus is upon new membership numbers
> > versus keeping people. The initiation game
> > with their religious/psychic promises are
> > what really attracts people and maintains
> > the membership numbers.
> >
> > Strange, too, that EK Discourses written
> > 20 or more years ago would be more appealing
> > than Klemp's current message. Not really!
> >
> > As for Marman, he needs to give the appearance
> > that he's a staunch believer in order to get away
> > with what he does. Doug's has his own followers
> > while appearing to maintain his connection with
> > Klemp. It seems his game is working. After all,
> > DM's making some money writing his books and
> > is establishing a base for himself. Even if Klemp
> > didn't choose him as a replacement he could still
> > pull many ECKists away from the new LEM, whenever,
> > that happens.
> >
> > Another thing, the new LEM will have to be able
> > to write or else ECKankar will have to buy Klemp's
> > copyrighted material from him, or reprint more of
> > Twitchell's old books. Actually, doing a reprint of
> > that older plagiarized material would be a better
> > read than either Klemp's or Marman's nonsense!
> >
> > BTW- I think that Klemp is planning on selling
> > his copyrights to ECKankar before he retires...
> > in about 5 years. Does ECKankar have that much
> > money to hand out? Why wouldn't a "real" Master
> > just sign over those copyrights now and for free!
> > Should money and a personal bank account be
> > important to a Mahanta? Why not trust that the
> > ECK or Sugmad will take care of him as IT does
> > with the lilies in the field.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>

I wonder what EK Seminar "Newcomers"
thought about the Metal Detectors and
the Searches for Klemp's Sat. evening talk?
They were invited to hear Guru Klemp
give his talk and then had to go through
Metal Detectors and open their bags to
be Searched!!! Wouldn't a "Man of God"
place his trust in God?

These Metal Detectors and Searches
have been going on for years and yet
nobody is permitted to complain! ECK
Leaders know they have to keep silent
about what they see. ECKists have to
rationalize and turn a blind eye to it all
in order to have ECKankar work for them
like their former religions worked for them
(or not) all of those years ago.

Would 2nd or 4th Plane (of Consciousness)
Gandhi or Jesus worry about Terrorists?
Yet, 14th Plane (of Con) Klemp seems to
be paranoid and fearful! Doesn't this make
ECKists wonder why? How can this be!

Why should ECK Vahanas do all of that
work when Klemp's negative behaviour
destroys it all! How disheartening and
embarrassing!

ECKists should ask themselves, Would
it be okay to do a body and bag search
of people before they attended a local
ECK Worship Service?

As much as most former ECKists dislike
Klemp we would never do him harm.
Even if I lived within driving range of
Minneapolis I'd never go to an EK Seminar,
the EK Temple, or to the ESC to shout and
protest. The Internet is enough. But, Klemp's
knee jerk reaction to Fear was due to 9/11
and is not about a threat from former ECKists.

Klemp has gotten more and more paranoid,
delusional, and mean spirited over the years.
Really, are Terrorists going to target Klemp?
Hmmmm, maybe a narcissist would think so!

BTW- Since Klemp claims to be a "Modern
Prophet" why didn't he foresee 9/11/2001?
Psychics can make generalized predictions.

Thus, why should ECKists continue to work
for Klemp when he behaves like a fearful moron!
What kind of a spiritual leader is Klemp when
he's so paranoid? It's obvious that HK is just
acting in a role he inherited from Gross, and
that he can't get beyond his long-term mentally
unstable nature!

This is a Wake-UP Call for ECKists! Metal
Detectors Do Not Equate to Higher Consciousness!

Prometheus


Prometheus Wrote:

Are the Metal Detectors (for HK's talk)
and Searches and Checked Bags for the
Temple and ESC Tours still necessary?
Why?

These security precautions were, originally,
in response to the 9/11/2001 Terrorist
Attacks. Why has Klemp continued this
Fear Mongering search policy?

Why is HK still wearing a Bullet Proof Vest
and has Armed Body Guards when 9/11
was a Terrorist Attack against this Country
and Not against Klemp personally!

Klemp's paranoia is proof that he's Not
a Master! Do these security efforts make
ECKists feel safer? Perhaps, especially
during HK's talk. But, isn't the Mahanta
supposed to "protect" chelas anyway and
at all times? But, why can't the Mahanta
"protect" himself? Even if HK was shot or
blown up by Terrorists... wouldn't that be
part of his Karmic Mission?

Why then, is Klemp fearful of his own
death? Talk is cheap isn't it! Klemp can't
walk the walk!

What are the chances of Terrorists attacking
Klemp and Company? Really! What are the
chances? I'll bet there's a greater chance of
being struck by lightening or attacked by a
shark!

Once again, Why do ECKists Not See what
is right in front of them? It seems to be the
blind leading the blind when Chelas say
nothing about those Metal Detectors or
Searches. Don't think that Klemp knows
nothing about these security precautions,
after all, he's the Mahanta isn't he! Thus,
if he didn't know he wouldn't be much of
a Mahanta would he! Either way, Klemp is
Not who or what he claims. It's so obvious!

Prometheus


Prometheus Wrote:

I forgot to ask if Klemp still has his minions
checking bags for the EK Temple and ESC
tours? Does one get off the bus and still
have their Bags Searched and Checked?

I actually thought that the Metal Detectors
at the main hall on Sat. night and searches
at the EK Temple in Oct. 2001 were strange
for ECKists to be put through. It seemed to
be a knee-jerk reaction to fear. However,
I, also, thought that it was only temporary!

To see these policies continue after all these
years really makes me wonder WHY?

Is Klemp so paranoid and egotistical that he
needs all of these precautions and defenses?
Yes, it seems so!

Really, why would someone want to assassinate
Klemp? He's a loser! This just shows how
mentally unstable Klemp really is! Yet, HK's
nutty and paranoid Seminar behavior has
now become "normal" operating procedure.
Why don't ECKists ever question this? Or,
are they afraid to? Sure they are! And who would
be listening anyway? Probably someone who
would, also, be writing their name on a list.

But, are other EK speakers or performers given
Bullet Proof Vests to wear? Are there Metal
Detectors on Friday night or during the day?
No! Of course not! It's all for old paranoid Klemp!

Really, the proof is in the pudding! How can
Klemp be what he claims when he is so fearful!
Think about it! This is real undeniable proof!
It is factual! It is real! Those Metal Detectors
and the Searches at the Temple and ESC are
proof of Klemp's fear! One might question
whether HK has a Bullet Proof Vest on or has
Armed Body Guards, but there's no rationalizing
the other proof, or is there! Denial isn't just a
river in Egypt! LOL!

Prometheus


prometheus wrote:

Hello All,
At Minneapolis EK Seminars, since 9/11/2001,
ECKists have been required to go through metal
detectors while Klemp wears a bullet proof vest
and has armed body guards standing near him!

Do ECKists find anything wrong with this picture?

What would Jesus or Gandhi do? Would they have
their followers searched before they were able to
enter a hall to listen to their talk? Would Jesus or
Gandhi be fearful of death and wear a bullet proof
vest and have armed body guards ready to shoot
and kill someone?

And, isn't the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp) supposed to be
so much "higher" and "greater" than Jesus or Gandhi!
It seems the proof doesn't bear this out does it! Klemp
is fearful and is losing his mind (via fear & ego) more
and more each day. He's afraid to promote Joan to
the 12th and afraid to anoint a new LEM!

I've heard some comments about the 2008 EWWS,
but I'm not all that interested in Klemp's nonsense.
If I was all that interested in what he had to say
I would have paid my $30 and taped the talk! But,
why should I? It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Klemp
never says anything that is new or interesting. HK's
pep talks are dumbed down because Klemp's
consciousness isn't above that of a 2nd initiate!

Almost any H.I. could prepare and give a better
talk than Klemp's! Just put a Klemp mask on
someone and introduce him as the Mahanta the
Living ECK Master and viola! If the person's voice
doesn't sound quite like Klemp's then he could
attribute this to a food allergy which was the
result of taking on more Karma for his chelas!
LOL!

Prometheus

Prometheus, maybe somebody out there knows the story about the metal
detectors. I thought they started using them when some crazed woman
started running down the aisle toward Klemp shouting "Master, Master...!"

The Shariyat states that H.I.'s are supposed to be willing to lay down
their own lives for the Master. If that's true, then Klemp doesn't
need metal detectors because any H.I. will take a bullet for him.
Somebody should remind him of that Shariyat passage. Any ESC staff
listening?

By the way, what happened to Twitchell's repeated claims that all
H.I.'s can communicate with each other through the inner channels? So,
here we have another Eckankar myth because if this was true, Klemp
could just send messages to all the H.I.'s. He wouldn't need to ask
eckists to spy on each other (refer to his fox in the henhouse
article) and he could protect himself at seminars by sending out a
"Help Me!" command on the inner.

So, Harold, why spend all that money for security and make eckists
wait in long lines going through metal detectors? Just reserve all the
front row seats for H.I.'s. Then, if there's an emergency, you give
the command on the inner for every H.I. to save you while you hightail
it out of there.

Regards
Liska

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> I wonder what EK Seminar "Newcomers"
> thought about the Metal Detectors and
> the Searches for Klemp's Sat. evening talk?
> They were invited to hear Guru Klemp
> give his talk and then had to go through
> Metal Detectors and open their bags to
> be Searched!!! Wouldn't a "Man of God"
> place his trust in God?
>
> These Metal Detectors and Searches
> have been going on for years and yet
> nobody is permitted to complain! ECK
> Leaders know they have to keep silent
> about what they see. ECKists have to
> rationalize and turn a blind eye to it all
> in order to have ECKankar work for them
> like their former religions worked for them
> (or not) all of those years ago.
>
> Would 2nd or 4th Plane (of Consciousness)
> Gandhi or Jesus worry about Terrorists?
> Yet, 14th Plane (of Con) Klemp seems to
> be paranoid and fearful! Doesn't this make
> ECKists wonder why? How can this be!
>
> Why should ECK Vahanas do all of that
> work when Klemp's negative behaviour
> destroys it all! How disheartening and
> embarrassing!
>
> ECKists should ask themselves, Would
> it be okay to do a body and bag search
> of people before they attended a local
> ECK Worship Service?
>
> As much as most former ECKists dislike
> Klemp we would never do him harm.
> Even if I lived within driving range of
> Minneapolis I'd never go to an EK Seminar,
> the EK Temple, or to the ESC to shout and
> protest. The Internet is enough. But, Klemp's
> knee jerk reaction to Fear was due to 9/11
> and is not about a threat from former ECKists.
>
> Klemp has gotten more and more paranoid,
> delusional, and mean spirited over the years.
> Really, are Terrorists going to target Klemp?
> Hmmmm, maybe a narcissist would think so!
>
> BTW- Since Klemp claims to be a "Modern
> Prophet" why didn't he foresee 9/11/2001?
> Psychics can make generalized predictions.
>
> Thus, why should ECKists continue to work
> for Klemp when he behaves like a fearful moron!
> What kind of a spiritual leader is Klemp when
> he's so paranoid? It's obvious that HK is just
> acting in a role he inherited from Gross, and
> that he can't get beyond his long-term mentally
> unstable nature!
>
> This is a Wake-UP Call for ECKists! Metal
> Detectors Do Not Equate to Higher Consciousness!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Prometheus Wrote:
>
> Are the Metal Detectors (for HK's talk)
> and Searches and Checked Bags for the
> Temple and ESC Tours still necessary?
> Why?
>
> These security precautions were, originally,
> in response to the 9/11/2001 Terrorist
> Attacks. Why has Klemp continued this
> Fear Mongering search policy?
>
> Why is HK still wearing a Bullet Proof Vest
> and has Armed Body Guards when 9/11
> was a Terrorist Attack against this Country
> and Not against Klemp personally!
>
> Klemp's paranoia is proof that he's Not
> a Master! Do these security efforts make
> ECKists feel safer? Perhaps, especially
> during HK's talk. But, isn't the Mahanta
> supposed to "protect" chelas anyway and
> at all times? But, why can't the Mahanta
> "protect" himself? Even if HK was shot or
> blown up by Terrorists... wouldn't that be
> part of his Karmic Mission?
>
> Why then, is Klemp fearful of his own
> death? Talk is cheap isn't it! Klemp can't
> walk the walk!
>
> What are the chances of Terrorists attacking
> Klemp and Company? Really! What are the
> chances? I'll bet there's a greater chance of
> being struck by lightening or attacked by a
> shark!
>
> Once again, Why do ECKists Not See what
> is right in front of them? It seems to be the
> blind leading the blind when Chelas say
> nothing about those Metal Detectors or
> Searches. Don't think that Klemp knows
> nothing about these security precautions,
> after all, he's the Mahanta isn't he! Thus,
> if he didn't know he wouldn't be much of
> a Mahanta would he! Either way, Klemp is
> Not who or what he claims. It's so obvious!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Prometheus Wrote:
>
> I forgot to ask if Klemp still has his minions
> checking bags for the EK Temple and ESC
> tours? Does one get off the bus and still
> have their Bags Searched and Checked?
>
> I actually thought that the Metal Detectors
> at the main hall on Sat. night and searches
> at the EK Temple in Oct. 2001 were strange
> for ECKists to be put through. It seemed to
> be a knee-jerk reaction to fear. However,
> I, also, thought that it was only temporary!
>
> To see these policies continue after all these
> years really makes me wonder WHY?
>
> Is Klemp so paranoid and egotistical that he
> needs all of these precautions and defenses?
> Yes, it seems so!
>
> Really, why would someone want to assassinate
> Klemp? He's a loser! This just shows how
> mentally unstable Klemp really is! Yet, HK's
> nutty and paranoid Seminar behavior has
> now become "normal" operating procedure.
> Why don't ECKists ever question this? Or,
> are they afraid to? Sure they are! And who would
> be listening anyway? Probably someone who
> would, also, be writing their name on a list.
>
> But, are other EK speakers or performers given
> Bullet Proof Vests to wear? Are there Metal
> Detectors on Friday night or during the day?
> No! Of course not! It's all for old paranoid Klemp!
>
> Really, the proof is in the pudding! How can
> Klemp be what he claims when he is so fearful!
> Think about it! This is real undeniable proof!
> It is factual! It is real! Those Metal Detectors
> and the Searches at the Temple and ESC are
> proof of Klemp's fear! One might question
> whether HK has a Bullet Proof Vest on or has
> Armed Body Guards, but there's no rationalizing
> the other proof, or is there! Denial isn't just a
> river in Egypt! LOL!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> At Minneapolis EK Seminars, since 9/11/2001,
> ECKists have been required to go through metal
> detectors while Klemp wears a bullet proof vest
> and has armed body guards standing near him!
>
> Do ECKists find anything wrong with this picture?
>
> What would Jesus or Gandhi do? Would they have
> their followers searched before they were able to
> enter a hall to listen to their talk? Would Jesus or
> Gandhi be fearful of death and wear a bullet proof
> vest and have armed body guards ready to shoot
> and kill someone?
>
> And, isn't the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp) supposed to be
> so much "higher" and "greater" than Jesus or Gandhi!
> It seems the proof doesn't bear this out does it! Klemp
> is fearful and is losing his mind (via fear & ego) more
> and more each day. He's afraid to promote Joan to
> the 12th and afraid to anoint a new LEM!
>
> I've heard some comments about the 2008 EWWS,
> but I'm not all that interested in Klemp's nonsense.
> If I was all that interested in what he had to say
> I would have paid my $30 and taped the talk! But,
> why should I? It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Klemp
> never says anything that is new or interesting. HK's
> pep talks are dumbed down because Klemp's
> consciousness isn't above that of a 2nd initiate!
>
> Almost any H.I. could prepare and give a better
> talk than Klemp's! Just put a Klemp mask on
> someone and introduce him as the Mahanta the
> Living ECK Master and viola! If the person's voice
> doesn't sound quite like Klemp's then he could
> attribute this to a food allergy which was the
> result of taking on more Karma for his chelas!
> LOL!
>
> Prometheus
>

Hello Liska and All,
I do know the story about the Metal Detectors
and it was due to 9/11/2001. It started that
October and continues today!

BTW-I was there and helped to take that one
person, who went whacky, out to the hallway.
And, there were no Metal Detectors after this
or other incidents. It was all due to the Terrorist
attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. And, there are enough
security personnel, everywhere, that Klemp should
have no fear from anyone. Believe me, I've seen
the security layers and it's more than you might
imagine. Behind the scenes it's very professional.

Besides, if Klemp was who he claimed he would
have the ability to make himself invisible, or
would see the danger in advance and avoid it.
HK is a Modern Prophet... right?

The Metal Detectors are just another sign of
Klemp's paranoia and unstable mental health.
Shouldn't all ECK Chelas attending HK's talk
be wearing Bullet Proof Vests just in case?
Why Not? Shouldn't chelas be afraid of losing
their life like Klemp is afraid of losing his?

Also, most of the front row seats are always
reserved for a certain select group of H.I.s.
Bob Lawton's people tend to get good front
row seats, as well as, ESC H.I. staffers or
special out-of-town guests.

Prometheus


Liska Wrote:
Prometheus, maybe somebody out there
knows the story about the metal detectors.
I thought they started using them when some
crazed woman started running down the aisle
toward Klemp shouting "Master, Master...!"

The Shariyat states that H.I.'s are supposed
to be willing to lay down their own lives for
the Master. If that's true, then Klemp doesn't
need metal detectors because any H.I. will
take a bullet for him. Somebody should remind
him of that Shariyat passage. Any ESC staff
listening?

By the way, what happened to Twitchell's
repeated claims that all H.I.'s can communicate
with each other through the inner channels?
So, here we have another Eckankar myth because
if this was true, Klemp could just send messages
to all the H.I.'s. He wouldn't need to ask eckists
to spy on each other (refer to his fox in the henhouse
article) and he could protect himself at seminars
by sending out a "Help Me!" command on the inner.

So, Harold, why spend all that money for security
and make eckists wait in long lines going through
metal detectors? Just reserve all the front row seats
for H.I.'s. Then, if there's an emergency, you give
the command on the inner for every H.I. to save
you while you hightail it out of there.

Regards
Liska

prometheus wrote:
>
> I wonder what EK Seminar "Newcomers"
> thought about the Metal Detectors and
> the Searches for Klemp's Sat. evening talk?
> They were invited to hear Guru Klemp
> give his talk and then had to go through
> Metal Detectors and open their bags to
> be Searched!!! Wouldn't a "Man of God"
> place his trust in God?
>
> These Metal Detectors and Searches
> have been going on for years and yet
> nobody is permitted to complain! ECK
> Leaders know they have to keep silent
> about what they see. ECKists have to
> rationalize and turn a blind eye to it all
> in order to have ECKankar work for them
> like their former religions worked for them
> (or not) all of those years ago.
>
> Would 2nd or 4th Plane (of Consciousness)
> Gandhi or Jesus worry about Terrorists?
> Yet, 14th Plane (of Con) Klemp seems to
> be paranoid and fearful! Doesn't this make
> ECKists wonder why? How can this be!
>
> Why should ECK Vahanas do all of that
> work when Klemp's negative behaviour
> destroys it all! How disheartening and
> embarrassing!
>
> ECKists should ask themselves, Would
> it be okay to do a body and bag search
> of people before they attended a local
> ECK Worship Service?
>
> As much as most former ECKists dislike
> Klemp we would never do him harm.
> Even if I lived within driving range of
> Minneapolis I'd never go to an EK Seminar,
> the EK Temple, or to the ESC to shout and
> protest. The Internet is enough. But, Klemp's
> knee jerk reaction to Fear was due to 9/11
> and is not about a threat from former ECKists.
>
> Klemp has gotten more and more paranoid,
> delusional, and mean spirited over the years.
> Really, are Terrorists going to target Klemp?
> Hmmmm, maybe a narcissist would think so!
>
> BTW- Since Klemp claims to be a "Modern
> Prophet" why didn't he foresee 9/11/2001?
> Psychics can make generalized predictions.
>
> Thus, why should ECKists continue to work
> for Klemp when he behaves like a fearful moron!
> What kind of a spiritual leader is Klemp when
> he's so paranoid? It's obvious that HK is just
> acting in a role he inherited from Gross, and
> that he can't get beyond his long-term mentally
> unstable nature!
>
> This is a Wake-UP Call for ECKists! Metal
> Detectors Do Not Equate to Higher Consciousness!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Prometheus Wrote:
>
> Are the Metal Detectors (for HK's talk)
> and Searches and Checked Bags for the
> Temple and ESC Tours still necessary?
> Why?
>
> These security precautions were, originally,
> in response to the 9/11/2001 Terrorist
> Attacks. Why has Klemp continued this
> Fear Mongering search policy?
>
> Why is HK still wearing a Bullet Proof Vest
> and has Armed Body Guards when 9/11
> was a Terrorist Attack against this Country
> and Not against Klemp personally!
>
> Klemp's paranoia is proof that he's Not
> a Master! Do these security efforts make
> ECKists feel safer? Perhaps, especially
> during HK's talk. But, isn't the Mahanta
> supposed to "protect" chelas anyway and
> at all times? But, why can't the Mahanta
> "protect" himself? Even if HK was shot or
> blown up by Terrorists... wouldn't that be
> part of his Karmic Mission?
>
> Why then, is Klemp fearful of his own
> death? Talk is cheap isn't it! Klemp can't
> walk the walk!
>
> What are the chances of Terrorists attacking
> Klemp and Company? Really! What are the
> chances? I'll bet there's a greater chance of
> being struck by lightening or attacked by a
> shark!
>
> Once again, Why do ECKists Not See what
> is right in front of them? It seems to be the
> blind leading the blind when Chelas say
> nothing about those Metal Detectors or
> Searches. Don't think that Klemp knows
> nothing about these security precautions,
> after all, he's the Mahanta isn't he! Thus,
> if he didn't know he wouldn't be much of
> a Mahanta would he! Either way, Klemp is
> Not who or what he claims. It's so obvious!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Prometheus Wrote:
>
> I forgot to ask if Klemp still has his minions
> checking bags for the EK Temple and ESC
> tours? Does one get off the bus and still
> have their Bags Searched and Checked?
>
> I actually thought that the Metal Detectors
> at the main hall on Sat. night and searches
> at the EK Temple in Oct. 2001 were strange
> for ECKists to be put through. It seemed to
> be a knee-jerk reaction to fear. However,
> I, also, thought that it was only temporary!
>
> To see these policies continue after all these
> years really makes me wonder WHY?
>
> Is Klemp so paranoid and egotistical that he
> needs all of these precautions and defenses?
> Yes, it seems so!
>
> Really, why would someone want to assassinate
> Klemp? He's a loser! This just shows how
> mentally unstable Klemp really is! Yet, HK's
> nutty and paranoid Seminar behavior has
> now become "normal" operating procedure.
> Why don't ECKists ever question this? Or,
> are they afraid to? Sure they are! And who would
> be listening anyway? Probably someone who
> would, also, be writing their name on a list.
>
> But, are other EK speakers or performers given
> Bullet Proof Vests to wear? Are there Metal
> Detectors on Friday night or during the day?
> No! Of course not! It's all for old paranoid Klemp!
>
> Really, the proof is in the pudding! How can
> Klemp be what he claims when he is so fearful!
> Think about it! This is real undeniable proof!
> It is factual! It is real! Those Metal Detectors
> and the Searches at the Temple and ESC are
> proof of Klemp's fear! One might question
> whether HK has a Bullet Proof Vest on or has
> Armed Body Guards, but there's no rationalizing
> the other proof, or is there! Denial isn't just a
> river in Egypt! LOL!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> At Minneapolis EK Seminars, since 9/11/2001,
> ECKists have been required to go through metal
> detectors while Klemp wears a bullet proof vest
> and has armed body guards standing near him!
>
> Do ECKists find anything wrong with this picture?
>
> What would Jesus or Gandhi do? Would they have
> their followers searched before they were able to
> enter a hall to listen to their talk? Would Jesus or
> Gandhi be fearful of death and wear a bullet proof
> vest and have armed body guards ready to shoot
> and kill someone?
>
> And, isn't the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp) supposed to be
> so much "higher" and "greater" than Jesus or Gandhi!
> It seems the proof doesn't bear this out does it! Klemp
> is fearful and is losing his mind (via fear & ego) more
> and more each day. He's afraid to promote Joan to
> the 12th and afraid to anoint a new LEM!
>
> I've heard some comments about the 2008 EWWS,
> but I'm not all that interested in Klemp's nonsense.
> If I was all that interested in what he had to say
> I would have paid my $30 and taped the talk! But,
> why should I? It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Klemp
> never says anything that is new or interesting. HK's
> pep talks are dumbed down because Klemp's
> consciousness isn't above that of a 2nd initiate!
>
> Almost any H.I. could prepare and give a better
> talk than Klemp's! Just put a Klemp mask on
> someone and introduce him as the Mahanta the
> Living ECK Master and viola! If the person's voice
> doesn't sound quite like Klemp's then he could
> attribute this to a food allergy which was the
> result of taking on more Karma for his chelas!
> LOL!
>
> Prometheus
>

Prometheus, you said, "BTW-I was there and helped to take that one
person, who went whacky, out to the hallway."

Can you tell us the story about that person? What was HK's reaction?

Liska

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Liska and All,
> I do know the story about the Metal Detectors
> and it was due to 9/11/2001. It started that
> October and continues today!
>
> BTW-I was there and helped to take that one
> person, who went whacky, out to the hallway.
> And, there were no Metal Detectors after this
> or other incidents. It was all due to the Terrorist
> attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. And, there are enough
> security personnel, everywhere, that Klemp should
> have no fear from anyone. Believe me, I've seen
> the security layers and it's more than you might
> imagine. Behind the scenes it's very professional.
>
> Besides, if Klemp was who he claimed he would
> have the ability to make himself invisible, or
> would see the danger in advance and avoid it.
> HK is a Modern Prophet... right?
>
> The Metal Detectors are just another sign of
> Klemp's paranoia and unstable mental health.
> Shouldn't all ECK Chelas attending HK's talk
> be wearing Bullet Proof Vests just in case?
> Why Not? Shouldn't chelas be afraid of losing
> their life like Klemp is afraid of losing his?
>
> Also, most of the front row seats are always
> reserved for a certain select group of H.I.s.
> Bob Lawton's people tend to get good front
> row seats, as well as, ESC H.I. staffers or
> special out-of-town guests.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Liska Wrote:
> Prometheus, maybe somebody out there
> knows the story about the metal detectors.
> I thought they started using them when some
> crazed woman started running down the aisle
> toward Klemp shouting "Master, Master...!"
>
> The Shariyat states that H.I.'s are supposed
> to be willing to lay down their own lives for
> the Master. If that's true, then Klemp doesn't
> need metal detectors because any H.I. will
> take a bullet for him. Somebody should remind
> him of that Shariyat passage. Any ESC staff
> listening?
>
> By the way, what happened to Twitchell's
> repeated claims that all H.I.'s can communicate
> with each other through the inner channels?
> So, here we have another Eckankar myth because
> if this was true, Klemp could just send messages
> to all the H.I.'s. He wouldn't need to ask eckists
> to spy on each other (refer to his fox in the henhouse
> article) and he could protect himself at seminars
> by sending out a "Help Me!" command on the inner.
>
> So, Harold, why spend all that money for security
> and make eckists wait in long lines going through
> metal detectors? Just reserve all the front row seats
> for H.I.'s. Then, if there's an emergency, you give
> the command on the inner for every H.I. to save
> you while you hightail it out of there.
>
> Regards
> Liska
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > I wonder what EK Seminar "Newcomers"
> > thought about the Metal Detectors and
> > the Searches for Klemp's Sat. evening talk?
> > They were invited to hear Guru Klemp
> > give his talk and then had to go through
> > Metal Detectors and open their bags to
> > be Searched!!! Wouldn't a "Man of God"
> > place his trust in God?
> >
> > These Metal Detectors and Searches
> > have been going on for years and yet
> > nobody is permitted to complain! ECK
> > Leaders know they have to keep silent
> > about what they see. ECKists have to
> > rationalize and turn a blind eye to it all
> > in order to have ECKankar work for them
> > like their former religions worked for them
> > (or not) all of those years ago.
> >
> > Would 2nd or 4th Plane (of Consciousness)
> > Gandhi or Jesus worry about Terrorists?
> > Yet, 14th Plane (of Con) Klemp seems to
> > be paranoid and fearful! Doesn't this make
> > ECKists wonder why? How can this be!
> >
> > Why should ECK Vahanas do all of that
> > work when Klemp's negative behaviour
> > destroys it all! How disheartening and
> > embarrassing!
> >
> > ECKists should ask themselves, Would
> > it be okay to do a body and bag search
> > of people before they attended a local
> > ECK Worship Service?
> >
> > As much as most former ECKists dislike
> > Klemp we would never do him harm.
> > Even if I lived within driving range of
> > Minneapolis I'd never go to an EK Seminar,
> > the EK Temple, or to the ESC to shout and
> > protest. The Internet is enough. But, Klemp's
> > knee jerk reaction to Fear was due to 9/11
> > and is not about a threat from former ECKists.
> >
> > Klemp has gotten more and more paranoid,
> > delusional, and mean spirited over the years.
> > Really, are Terrorists going to target Klemp?
> > Hmmmm, maybe a narcissist would think so!
> >
> > BTW- Since Klemp claims to be a "Modern
> > Prophet" why didn't he foresee 9/11/2001?
> > Psychics can make generalized predictions.
> >
> > Thus, why should ECKists continue to work
> > for Klemp when he behaves like a fearful moron!
> > What kind of a spiritual leader is Klemp when
> > he's so paranoid? It's obvious that HK is just
> > acting in a role he inherited from Gross, and
> > that he can't get beyond his long-term mentally
> > unstable nature!
> >
> > This is a Wake-UP Call for ECKists! Metal
> > Detectors Do Not Equate to Higher Consciousness!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > Prometheus Wrote:
> >
> > Are the Metal Detectors (for HK's talk)
> > and Searches and Checked Bags for the
> > Temple and ESC Tours still necessary?
> > Why?
> >
> > These security precautions were, originally,
> > in response to the 9/11/2001 Terrorist
> > Attacks. Why has Klemp continued this
> > Fear Mongering search policy?
> >
> > Why is HK still wearing a Bullet Proof Vest
> > and has Armed Body Guards when 9/11
> > was a Terrorist Attack against this Country
> > and Not against Klemp personally!
> >
> > Klemp's paranoia is proof that he's Not
> > a Master! Do these security efforts make
> > ECKists feel safer? Perhaps, especially
> > during HK's talk. But, isn't the Mahanta
> > supposed to "protect" chelas anyway and
> > at all times? But, why can't the Mahanta
> > "protect" himself? Even if HK was shot or
> > blown up by Terrorists... wouldn't that be
> > part of his Karmic Mission?
> >
> > Why then, is Klemp fearful of his own
> > death? Talk is cheap isn't it! Klemp can't
> > walk the walk!
> >
> > What are the chances of Terrorists attacking
> > Klemp and Company? Really! What are the
> > chances? I'll bet there's a greater chance of
> > being struck by lightening or attacked by a
> > shark!
> >
> > Once again, Why do ECKists Not See what
> > is right in front of them? It seems to be the
> > blind leading the blind when Chelas say
> > nothing about those Metal Detectors or
> > Searches. Don't think that Klemp knows
> > nothing about these security precautions,
> > after all, he's the Mahanta isn't he! Thus,
> > if he didn't know he wouldn't be much of
> > a Mahanta would he! Either way, Klemp is
> > Not who or what he claims. It's so obvious!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > Prometheus Wrote:
> >
> > I forgot to ask if Klemp still has his minions
> > checking bags for the EK Temple and ESC
> > tours? Does one get off the bus and still
> > have their Bags Searched and Checked?
> >
> > I actually thought that the Metal Detectors
> > at the main hall on Sat. night and searches
> > at the EK Temple in Oct. 2001 were strange
> > for ECKists to be put through. It seemed to
> > be a knee-jerk reaction to fear. However,
> > I, also, thought that it was only temporary!
> >
> > To see these policies continue after all these
> > years really makes me wonder WHY?
> >
> > Is Klemp so paranoid and egotistical that he
> > needs all of these precautions and defenses?
> > Yes, it seems so!
> >
> > Really, why would someone want to assassinate
> > Klemp? He's a loser! This just shows how
> > mentally unstable Klemp really is! Yet, HK's
> > nutty and paranoid Seminar behavior has
> > now become "normal" operating procedure.
> > Why don't ECKists ever question this? Or,
> > are they afraid to? Sure they are! And who would
> > be listening anyway? Probably someone who
> > would, also, be writing their name on a list.
> >
> > But, are other EK speakers or performers given
> > Bullet Proof Vests to wear? Are there Metal
> > Detectors on Friday night or during the day?
> > No! Of course not! It's all for old paranoid Klemp!
> >
> > Really, the proof is in the pudding! How can
> > Klemp be what he claims when he is so fearful!
> > Think about it! This is real undeniable proof!
> > It is factual! It is real! Those Metal Detectors
> > and the Searches at the Temple and ESC are
> > proof of Klemp's fear! One might question
> > whether HK has a Bullet Proof Vest on or has
> > Armed Body Guards, but there's no rationalizing
> > the other proof, or is there! Denial isn't just a
> > river in Egypt! LOL!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > At Minneapolis EK Seminars, since 9/11/2001,
> > ECKists have been required to go through metal
> > detectors while Klemp wears a bullet proof vest
> > and has armed body guards standing near him!
> >
> > Do ECKists find anything wrong with this picture?
> >
> > What would Jesus or Gandhi do? Would they have
> > their followers searched before they were able to
> > enter a hall to listen to their talk? Would Jesus or
> > Gandhi be fearful of death and wear a bullet proof
> > vest and have armed body guards ready to shoot
> > and kill someone?
> >
> > And, isn't the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp) supposed to be
> > so much "higher" and "greater" than Jesus or Gandhi!
> > It seems the proof doesn't bear this out does it! Klemp
> > is fearful and is losing his mind (via fear & ego) more
> > and more each day. He's afraid to promote Joan to
> > the 12th and afraid to anoint a new LEM!
> >
> > I've heard some comments about the 2008 EWWS,
> > but I'm not all that interested in Klemp's nonsense.
> > If I was all that interested in what he had to say
> > I would have paid my $30 and taped the talk! But,
> > why should I? It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Klemp
> > never says anything that is new or interesting. HK's
> > pep talks are dumbed down because Klemp's
> > consciousness isn't above that of a 2nd initiate!
> >
> > Almost any H.I. could prepare and give a better
> > talk than Klemp's! Just put a Klemp mask on
> > someone and introduce him as the Mahanta the
> > Living ECK Master and viola! If the person's voice
> > doesn't sound quite like Klemp's then he could
> > attribute this to a food allergy which was the
> > result of taking on more Karma for his chelas!
> > LOL!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>

Hello Liska and All,
I think that Klemp just remarked that
sometimes people get too much of the
"ECK" at the seminars and will become
overloaded and out of balance. It seemed
like everyone related to HK's remarks.
He could have said more about this but
I was outside near the entryway to the
main hall with the woman, and other H.I.s
and security people.

I'm almost thinking that this was an
Orlando venue for this major EK seminar.
I know it wasn't in Minneapolis. I was
seated near the center of the main aisle
and heard her yelling and then saw her
running and waving her arms as she ran
down the aisle and approached me.
"We" stopped her about 50 feet from
the stage and escorted her outside near
the entrance. Actually, she was confused
and suffering from what some call a
"nervous (mental) breakdown" much like
Klemp experienced when he jumped off
that bridge and did a striptease at an
airport in 1970.

I heard Harry comment upon the incident
while escorting her out and while standing
outside through a partly open door.

It is interesting that when things like this
happen to others (except Klemp) it's referred
to as getting too much of the "ECK" and being
overloaded. With Klemp, it was the result of
God-Realization! LOL!

Prometheus



Prometheus, you said, "BTW-I was there
and helped to take that one person, who
went whacky, out to the hallway."

Can you tell us the story about that person?
What was HK's reaction?

Liska

prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Liska and All,
> I do know the story about the Metal Detectors
> and it was due to 9/11/2001. It started that
> October and continues today!
>
> BTW-I was there and helped to take that one
> person, who went whacky, out to the hallway.
> And, there were no Metal Detectors after this
> or other incidents. It was all due to the Terrorist
> attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. And, there are enough
> security personnel, everywhere, that Klemp should
> have no fear from anyone. Believe me, I've seen
> the security layers and it's more than you might
> imagine. Behind the scenes it's very professional.
>
> Besides, if Klemp was who he claimed he would
> have the ability to make himself invisible, or
> would see the danger in advance and avoid it.
> HK is a Modern Prophet... right?
>
> The Metal Detectors are just another sign of
> Klemp's paranoia and unstable mental health.
> Shouldn't all ECK Chelas attending HK's talk
> be wearing Bullet Proof Vests just in case?
> Why Not? Shouldn't chelas be afraid of losing
> their life like Klemp is afraid of losing his?
>
> Also, most of the front row seats are always
> reserved for a certain select group of H.I.s.
> Bob Lawton's people tend to get good front
> row seats, as well as, ESC H.I. staffers or
> special out-of-town guests.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> Liska Wrote:
> Prometheus, maybe somebody out there
> knows the story about the metal detectors.
> I thought they started using them when some
> crazed woman started running down the aisle
> toward Klemp shouting "Master, Master...!"
>
> The Shariyat states that H.I.'s are supposed
> to be willing to lay down their own lives for
> the Master. If that's true, then Klemp doesn't
> need metal detectors because any H.I. will
> take a bullet for him. Somebody should remind
> him of that Shariyat passage. Any ESC staff
> listening?
>
> By the way, what happened to Twitchell's
> repeated claims that all H.I.'s can communicate
> with each other through the inner channels?
> So, here we have another Eckankar myth because
> if this was true, Klemp could just send messages
> to all the H.I.'s. He wouldn't need to ask eckists
> to spy on each other (refer to his fox in the henhouse
> article) and he could protect himself at seminars
> by sending out a "Help Me!" command on the inner.
>
> So, Harold, why spend all that money for security
> and make eckists wait in long lines going through
> metal detectors? Just reserve all the front row seats
> for H.I.'s. Then, if there's an emergency, you give
> the command on the inner for every H.I. to save
> you while you hightail it out of there.
>
> Regards
> Liska
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > I wonder what EK Seminar "Newcomers"
> > thought about the Metal Detectors and
> > the Searches for Klemp's Sat. evening talk?
> > They were invited to hear Guru Klemp
> > give his talk and then had to go through
> > Metal Detectors and open their bags to
> > be Searched!!! Wouldn't a "Man of God"
> > place his trust in God?
> >
> > These Metal Detectors and Searches
> > have been going on for years and yet
> > nobody is permitted to complain! ECK
> > Leaders know they have to keep silent
> > about what they see. ECKists have to
> > rationalize and turn a blind eye to it all
> > in order to have ECKankar work for them
> > like their former religions worked for them
> > (or not) all of those years ago.
> >
> > Would 2nd or 4th Plane (of Consciousness)
> > Gandhi or Jesus worry about Terrorists?
> > Yet, 14th Plane (of Con) Klemp seems to
> > be paranoid and fearful! Doesn't this make
> > ECKists wonder why? How can this be!
> >
> > Why should ECK Vahanas do all of that
> > work when Klemp's negative behaviour
> > destroys it all! How disheartening and
> > embarrassing!
> >
> > ECKists should ask themselves, Would
> > it be okay to do a body and bag search
> > of people before they attended a local
> > ECK Worship Service?
> >
> > As much as most former ECKists dislike
> > Klemp we would never do him harm.
> > Even if I lived within driving range of
> > Minneapolis I'd never go to an EK Seminar,
> > the EK Temple, or to the ESC to shout and
> > protest. The Internet is enough. But, Klemp's
> > knee jerk reaction to Fear was due to 9/11
> > and is not about a threat from former ECKists.
> >
> > Klemp has gotten more and more paranoid,
> > delusional, and mean spirited over the years.
> > Really, are Terrorists going to target Klemp?
> > Hmmmm, maybe a narcissist would think so!
> >
> > BTW- Since Klemp claims to be a "Modern
> > Prophet" why didn't he foresee 9/11/2001?
> > Psychics can make generalized predictions.
> >
> > Thus, why should ECKists continue to work
> > for Klemp when he behaves like a fearful moron!
> > What kind of a spiritual leader is Klemp when
> > he's so paranoid? It's obvious that HK is just
> > acting in a role he inherited from Gross, and
> > that he can't get beyond his long-term mentally
> > unstable nature!
> >
> > This is a Wake-UP Call for ECKists! Metal
> > Detectors Do Not Equate to Higher Consciousness!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > Prometheus Wrote:
> >
> > Are the Metal Detectors (for HK's talk)
> > and Searches and Checked Bags for the
> > Temple and ESC Tours still necessary?
> > Why?
> >
> > These security precautions were, originally,
> > in response to the 9/11/2001 Terrorist
> > Attacks. Why has Klemp continued this
> > Fear Mongering search policy?
> >
> > Why is HK still wearing a Bullet Proof Vest
> > and has Armed Body Guards when 9/11
> > was a Terrorist Attack against this Country
> > and Not against Klemp personally!
> >
> > Klemp's paranoia is proof that he's Not
> > a Master! Do these security efforts make
> > ECKists feel safer? Perhaps, especially
> > during HK's talk. But, isn't the Mahanta
> > supposed to "protect" chelas anyway and
> > at all times? But, why can't the Mahanta
> > "protect" himself? Even if HK was shot or
> > blown up by Terrorists... wouldn't that be
> > part of his Karmic Mission?
> >
> > Why then, is Klemp fearful of his own
> > death? Talk is cheap isn't it! Klemp can't
> > walk the walk!
> >
> > What are the chances of Terrorists attacking
> > Klemp and Company? Really! What are the
> > chances? I'll bet there's a greater chance of
> > being struck by lightening or attacked by a
> > shark!
> >
> > Once again, Why do ECKists Not See what
> > is right in front of them? It seems to be the
> > blind leading the blind when Chelas say
> > nothing about those Metal Detectors or
> > Searches. Don't think that Klemp knows
> > nothing about these security precautions,
> > after all, he's the Mahanta isn't he! Thus,
> > if he didn't know he wouldn't be much of
> > a Mahanta would he! Either way, Klemp is
> > Not who or what he claims. It's so obvious!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > Prometheus Wrote:
> >
> > I forgot to ask if Klemp still has his minions
> > checking bags for the EK Temple and ESC
> > tours? Does one get off the bus and still
> > have their Bags Searched and Checked?
> >
> > I actually thought that the Metal Detectors
> > at the main hall on Sat. night and searches
> > at the EK Temple in Oct. 2001 were strange
> > for ECKists to be put through. It seemed to
> > be a knee-jerk reaction to fear. However,
> > I, also, thought that it was only temporary!
> >
> > To see these policies continue after all these
> > years really makes me wonder WHY?
> >
> > Is Klemp so paranoid and egotistical that he
> > needs all of these precautions and defenses?
> > Yes, it seems so!
> >
> > Really, why would someone want to assassinate
> > Klemp? He's a loser! This just shows how
> > mentally unstable Klemp really is! Yet, HK's
> > nutty and paranoid Seminar behavior has
> > now become "normal" operating procedure.
> > Why don't ECKists ever question this? Or,
> > are they afraid to? Sure they are! And who would
> > be listening anyway? Probably someone who
> > would, also, be writing their name on a list.
> >
> > But, are other EK speakers or performers given
> > Bullet Proof Vests to wear? Are there Metal
> > Detectors on Friday night or during the day?
> > No! Of course not! It's all for old paranoid Klemp!
> >
> > Really, the proof is in the pudding! How can
> > Klemp be what he claims when he is so fearful!
> > Think about it! This is real undeniable proof!
> > It is factual! It is real! Those Metal Detectors
> > and the Searches at the Temple and ESC are
> > proof of Klemp's fear! One might question
> > whether HK has a Bullet Proof Vest on or has
> > Armed Body Guards, but there's no rationalizing
> > the other proof, or is there! Denial isn't just a
> > river in Egypt! LOL!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > At Minneapolis EK Seminars, since 9/11/2001,
> > ECKists have been required to go through metal
> > detectors while Klemp wears a bullet proof vest
> > and has armed body guards standing near him!
> >
> > Do ECKists find anything wrong with this picture?
> >
> > What would Jesus or Gandhi do? Would they have
> > their followers searched before they were able to
> > enter a hall to listen to their talk? Would Jesus or
> > Gandhi be fearful of death and wear a bullet proof
> > vest and have armed body guards ready to shoot
> > and kill someone?
> >
> > And, isn't the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp) supposed to be
> > so much "higher" and "greater" than Jesus or Gandhi!
> > It seems the proof doesn't bear this out does it! Klemp
> > is fearful and is losing his mind (via fear & ego) more
> > and more each day. He's afraid to promote Joan to
> > the 12th and afraid to anoint a new LEM!
> >
> > I've heard some comments about the 2008 EWWS,
> > but I'm not all that interested in Klemp's nonsense.
> > If I was all that interested in what he had to say
> > I would have paid my $30 and taped the talk! But,
> > why should I? It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Klemp
> > never says anything that is new or interesting. HK's
> > pep talks are dumbed down because Klemp's
> > consciousness isn't above that of a 2nd initiate!
> >
> > Almost any H.I. could prepare and give a better
> > talk than Klemp's! Just put a Klemp mask on
> > someone and introduce him as the Mahanta the
> > Living ECK Master and viola! If the person's voice
> > doesn't sound quite like Klemp's then he could
> > attribute this to a food allergy which was the
> > result of taking on more Karma for his chelas!
> > LOL!
> >
> > Prometheus

Hi all,

I just joined your group because I have so many questions about
Eckankar, and don't have anyone to confide in, or ask.  I am an HI who
is contemplating leaving Eckankar.

I don't know just how this group works, so please bear with me, and if
I mess up, let me know.

Thanks
Ma-li

Hello and welcome Ma-li and Skypilot4mr. A number of us are former
H.I.'s. I can only speak for myself. I got into Eckankar in 1972 and
even bought the lifetime membership. In the long run, it did save me
some money, but I could have saved a lot more if I had been smarter
and never joined.

Like many here, I had all the Eck booby prizes (ESA, Initiator, etc.)
None of them meant anything. They are just the cult's way of keeping
you from leaving by feeding the ego. They are also used by the
organization to get you to work for them for free. I was glad to give
it all up and left it behind including the lifetime membership.

By now you've realized that H.I.'s are no better than anybody else.
They're not more spiritual. In all likelihood, they're more
brainwashed than the rest of the Eckankar membership.

A lot of the H.I.'s hold onto their cult memberships because it gives
them status and a feeling of worth. One can really see this with
H.I.'s who perform at Eck functions. This is their only chance to
actually take the stage and sing, play, give speeches, act, dance,
etc. in front of an audience. What would they do if they were no
longer members of Eckankar? Who would want to see their 3rd rate
performance?

Please feel free to tell us why you woke up from this deception called
Eckankar. If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask them. Unlike
Eckankar, we don't discourage questions and we don't practice the law
of silence.

Regards
Liska

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mhstarlings"
<mhstarlings@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I just joined your group because I have so many questions about
> Eckankar, and don't have anyone to confide in, or ask.  I am an HI who
> is contemplating leaving Eckankar.
>
> I don't know just how this group works, so please bear with me, and if
> I mess up, let me know.
>
> Thanks
> Ma-li
>

Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
quarters) did recently to make you feel
uncomfortable and for you to have even
more misgivings. What are some of the
things that just don't feel right to you
anymore? Please share more.

It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
permitted to question things like the
need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
and fake.

The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
phenomena and appeared when people were
trying to make a positive impression when
around other ECKists, or were so detached,
aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
with any empathy, as to what others were
going through. Some actually believed
they were having a "spiritual experience."
One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
However, for those who really "believed"
it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
or psychic experience just like with any other
feel good religion. Many times it was just an
"as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.


Prometheus


Skypilot4mr Wrote:
I am a new member of this group,
and don't know exactly how to do
things here. So, I am just jumping
in with an email to introduce myself.

I have been a member of Eckankar
since 1973, and have been debating
with myself for the last few years about
leaving the path. There are just too many
things that don't feel right to me anymore.

I live in a rural community, have a disability
that precludes my going to ECK functions,
and there is no one in the ECK community
in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
talking to about my misgivings. They still
have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
I feel there must be something wrong with
me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

After reading a few posts on this site,
I now realize there are others like me
who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
if they ever were.  I am an HI, but it really
doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
especially after what headquarters did
recently.  I am in a quandry. This doesn't
go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
blind right now.

Hope to get to know you folks better,
and you get to know me too.

Skypilot4mr

Hello Mi-li and All,
Many of those active chelas joining EK
in 1973, under Darwin, had become
7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
1991. Many others remained 6ths.
However, most of those who have the
6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
the 7th when they become RESAs. This
is how HK maintains a reserve for the
RESA position.

Klemp did replace some of those, of high
rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
but then he slowed other initiations down
due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
initiations above the 5th and, especially,
with any above the 7th!

What's really ironic is that those chelas
Darwin skipped initiations on or who
were only 4ths for a few months before
getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
and Company all of their "fast tracked"
initiations!


Now, however, a 5th needs to become
a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
they will be eligible for the 6th, and
a 6th needs to become an ESA before
they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
this process can vary some depending
upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
and RESA ass kissing!

In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
List" comes down from the ESC. They do
this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
cases it's the computer generated list based
on one's membership date and last initiation
date and the approval of local H.I.s that
determine whether or not someone will
or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.

If most ECKists knew how initiations were
really done they would know that the rest
of the crap about "inner communication"
with the Mahanta was a lie as well!

FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
membership current too. Otherwise, one
can/will get passed over for initiation.

Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
And, one has to watch one's "language."
You cannot share other beliefs and question
or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
myth or prediction is one such thing that
would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
basis need to know how to play-the-game.

BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
wants to go down in history as the biggest
and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!

Prometheus



Hello Prometheus,

Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same.  Don't know how to
use
Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I shouldn't have.

Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973.  I never bought the lifetime
membership because I couldn't afford it.  Anyway, you would expect that after
all these
years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.  When I would
quesstion the
RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things down because
too
many were getting to far too fast.  Sounded wrong to me, but what did I know...I
was just
a lowly peon at the time.  Of course, we couldn't question the Master about it
or there
would never be another intiiation.  God forbid I'd be a lowly loser forever. lol

Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th.  Yipee, I finally was there with
the big
boys.  Funny thing, nothing changed.  Was that initiation all it was cracked up
to be, or
was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and 5th's no
longer
automatically became clerics without taking the training.  I was grandfathered
in because I
had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't give much
thought to
my staus as a cleric.  As I said, I have a disability that precludes much
interaction with
people in public settings.

Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and sign a form so
they can
have a private company do a criminal background check.  This was to make sure I
wasn't a
child predator, molester etc.  Talk about a slap in the face!!!!  It was for
insurance
purposes, they said.  Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to various other
friends who
are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled.  They hadn't had to
have
background checks.  All that aside, there was no way I would consent to more
government
interference in my life, and refused to sign.  Told them why also.  (I had just
been
informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that gives the
gov't access
to my pc...according to the new law.)  Those two letters really ticked me off.

Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to bow to their
wishes, or to
talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me to send back
my
certificate and ID card.  Wow!  I NEVER got a certificate in the first place,
and had no idea
such a thing even existed.  Sent them the ID card, and that was the end of it. 
How much
attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years passed
between
initiations?  I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.  Computers
are
marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done "on the
inner". Oops.

Namaste
Ma-li

Prometheus wrote:
Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!

I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
quarters) did recently to make you feel
uncomfortable and for you to have even
more misgivings. What are some of the
things that just don't feel right to you
anymore? Please share more.

It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
permitted to question things like the
need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).

Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
and fake.

The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
phenomena and appeared when people were
trying to make a positive impression when
around other ECKists, or were so detached,
aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
with any empathy, as to what others were
going through. Some actually believed
they were having a "spiritual experience."
One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
However, for those who really "believed"
it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
or psychic experience just like with any other
feel good religion. Many times it was just an
"as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.

Prometheus

Skypilot4mr Wrote:
I am a new member of this group,
and don't know exactly how to do
things here. So, I am just jumping
in with an email to introduce myself.

I have been a member of Eckankar
since 1973, and have been debating
with myself for the last few years about
leaving the path. There are just too many
things that don't feel right to me anymore.

I live in a rural community, have a disability
that precludes my going to ECK functions,
and there is no one in the ECK community
in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
talking to about my misgivings. They still
have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
I feel there must be something wrong with
me that I don't buy into everything anymore.

After reading a few posts on this site,
I now realize there are others like me
who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
especially after what headquarters did
recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
blind right now.

Hope to get to know you folks better,
and you get to know me too.

Skypilot4mr

Hello Leanne and All,
Yes, I mentioned that "we" stopped
her. ECKists want to protect their
Mahanta (while he doesn't lift a
finger to protect them), therefore,
there was plenty of help including
EK security. When I told people about
what happened I don't think that
anyone laughed (well maybe one guy)
they were shocked and concerned.

The first reaction was concern for
Klemp's safety and the next reaction
was concern for the ECKist. After that,
the more times the story was told the
funnier it seemed. I'm not sure if I saw
Ron there, outside, with us or not. I
can't recall seeing him.

Prometheus


Leanne  wrote:
>
Hi prometheus. WHen that lady
went kooky while running down
the isle towards harold did anyone
else join in to help you? I remember
ROn Lavanerir telling a group I was
in about this and I kind of laughed.
>  
THanks
Leanne

Prometheus wrote:

Hello Liska and All,
I think that Klemp just remarked that
sometimes people get too much of the
"ECK" at the seminars and will become
overloaded and out of balance. It seemed
like everyone related to HK's remarks.
He could have said more about this but
I was outside near the entryway to the
main hall with the woman, and other
H.I.s and security people.

I'm almost thinking that this was an
Orlando venue for this major EK seminar.
I know it wasn't in Minneapolis. I was
seated near the center of the main aisle
and heard her yelling and then saw her
running and waving her arms as she ran
down the aisle and approached me.


"We" stopped her about 50 feet from
the stage and escorted her outside near
the entrance. Actually, she was confused
and suffering from what some call a
"nervous (mental) breakdown" much like
Klemp experienced when he jumped off
that bridge and did a striptease at an
airport in 1970.


I heard Harry comment upon the incident
while escorting her out and while standing
outside through a partly open door.

It is interesting that when things like this
happen to others (except Klemp) it's referred
to as getting too much of the "ECK" and being
overloaded. With Klemp, it was the result of
God-Realization! LOL!

Prometheus

Prometheus, Ma-li, and anybody else reading this, Paranoia and
narcissism go hand in hand. Here's a link that talks about it...

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/paranoidnarcissismspectrum.html

I extracted a few passages which I thought were relevant to Klemp's
condition.

"Grandiose -- belief that you are an extremely important person, an
invaluable member of society, and possess or make some special
unrecognized talent or contribution." (He's already stated that he is
God on earth and the highest consciousness in all the universes).

"Persecution -- belief that others are out to get you, are plotting
against you, foiling your every move, or making you feel guilty or
ashamed." (This is part of his paranoia which is revealed in the
extremely tight security around him and the initiative to have
background checks on all his H.I.'s.)

"Bodily -- belief in some kind of undiagnosed deteriorative medical
condition such as dissolving of spinal cord, rotting or deterioration
of skin, organs, or brain." (We've seen him complain about all his
bodily illnesses including his obsession with electromagnetic
radiation - EMR.)

"Religious -- belief that you are an important religious figure, in
contact with deities, or serving some special theological purpose in
the world." (Again, his claim to be God's highest instrument and
representative with the duty to bring all Souls back to God proves how
delusional he is.)

"male narcissists tend to get ahead by becoming involved in massive
power struggles" (The overthrowing of Darwin).

"They live life by idealizing those who satisfy their narcissistic
needs and systematically devaluing and denigrating those who do not.
Underneath their superficial charm, they feel they have a right to
control, manipulate, exploit, and be cruel to others." (Giving 8th
initiations to those who help elevate Klemp's status - people like
Peter Skelsky and Jack Heil while criticizing many of the Eckankar
membership - see Eck Satsang 3 and 4).

"Being a narcissist is close to being an alcoholic but MUCH more so.
Alcoholism is impulsive behavior. Narcissists have this plus hundreds
of other problems. Narcissists frequently have uncontrollable
behaviors, like rage which is an outcome of their grandiosity.
Narcissists can rarely be cured, but side effects, associated
disorders (such as OCD), pathological lying, and the paranoiac
dimensions CAN be modified." (Ford's book talked about his own
experiences with Klemp's temper and that he was easy to anger).

What do you think?

Regards
Liska

Ma-li, I've been in that position when RESAS would ask my opinion
about other eckists up for initiation (company promotion). If Klemp
was what he claimed to be - omniscient and omnipotent, there wouldn't
be a need for this kind of thing. He would know everything and make
his determination based on a person's spiritual unfoldment. It's
another example showing he's a fake.

Yes, Paul Twitchell made it all up. What he didn't make up, he stole
from other writers and claimed as his own awe-inspiring insights.
Remember, like Ron Hubbard, Twitchell was a third-rate science fiction
writer. He learned from his mentor that writing books was not going to
get him rich and give him the recognition he craved. So, he made up a
religion/cult and put himself at the head of it.

He didn't really get away with the plagiarism. It's dogging
Eckankar today. You've seen references to it all over the web. Try
writing Peter Skelsky, Harold Klemp, or Jack Heil about the
plagiarism. You're never going to hear back from any of them.

Yes, the female Eck Master is another mythical being promoted by Klemp
to appease his female followers. He never explained how a female
becomes an Eck Master even though the Shariyat says a female can never
be the Living Eck Master.

It's good that you're getting rid of all that poison by expressing
your doubts on this forum.

Regards
Liska




--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li
<mhstarlings@...> wrote:
>
> Good Morning All,
>  
> Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the
beginning, missed the boat on the 7th initiations by the late 80s
-early 90s.  The highest there was then was a 4th.  Oh well...
>  
> If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further
because we don't have the resources, have health issues, or may have
pissed off someone higher up who is now in a position of power re:
initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's best friend takes
it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active
member, that it would make a difference?  Especially, if that person
then becomes RESA after the friend steps down a year later, and
remains there for over a decade.
>  
> In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid
my yearly membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was
able.  I just wasn't in the same class as the above mentioned people. 
I was a small business owner, they were in the medical profession by
marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they had to devote to
promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
after ESC was told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept
getting their initiations, but I never got another one.  At some point
I didn't really care anymore, and there were too many inconsistencies
about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an ass
kisser, and don't plan to start at this point. lol
>  
> I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no
longer be friends with several of the people...not by my choice, but
by theirs.  Then the gossip will fly, and all sorts of things that
aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to pay for
freedom.
>  
> In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I
never knew there was a game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs. 
Thought we were all on the same page, and were there for spiritual
growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the business world,
and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those
wanting whatever place of power was available.  I don't understand the
need for power, and for causing grief for others.  Power makes for
strange bedfellows.
>  
> The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was
an individual path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me
wonder about the many who are new to the path.  When, if ever, will
they reach the point I've reached, and will they be as confused about
it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that have
gone down until I read some of the links on your group home page. 
Blew my mind, to say the least.  So much deception, outright lies, and
corruption by those we put our trust in.  Eckankar, the path that was
supposed to be different, is no different that any other religion. 
Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
there is truth in all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth
from what's garbage.
>  
> Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to
the ancientness of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get
away with the plagerism etc.? 
>  
> Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify
the women coming to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me
many years ago that there could never be a female because of energies,
or such. 
>  
> How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on
forever and ever?
>  
> Namaste
> Ma-li
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> --- On Fri, 11/7/08, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm new here...
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Mi-li and All,
> Many of those active chelas joining EK
> in 1973, under Darwin, had become
> 7ths in the mid to late 1980's or by
> 1991. Many others remained 6ths.
> However, most of those who have the
> 6th and are ESAs will be promoted to
> the 7th when they become RESAs. This
> is how HK maintains a reserve for the
> RESA position.
>
> Klemp did replace some of those, of high
> rank, when the split occurred in 1984,
> but then he slowed other initiations down
> due to DG sending out 500 5th initiation
> pink slips before leaving (late 1983?).
> Unfortunately, HK's been stingy with higher
> initiations above the 5th and, especially,
> with any above the 7th!
>
> What's really ironic is that those chelas
> Darwin skipped initiations on or who
> were only 4ths for a few months before
> getting their 5ths became Klemp's RESAs!
> Those 500 pink slips that DG sent out for
> the 5th was no worse than giving Klemp
> and Company all of their "fast tracked"
> initiations!
>
> Now, however, a 5th needs to become
> a Cleric (and maybe an Initiator) before
> they will be eligible for the 6th, and
> a 6th needs to become an ESA before
> they are eligible for the 7th. Of course,
> this process can vary some depending
> upon the RESA but it usually takes a lot
> of "training" and volunteer work (jumping
> through hoops) and a lot of H.I. networking
> and RESA ass kissing!
>
> In many Satsang Societies the area H.I.s
> are called by the RESA when the "Initiation
> List" comes down from the ESC. They do
> this to get a yea or nay, but have to explain
> why they've given the nay. Thus, in many
> cases it's the computer generated list based
> on one's membership date and last initiation
> date and the approval of local H.I.s that
> determine whether or not someone will
> or won't get that next initiation. Of course,
> the local RESA has, mostly, the last word.
>
> If most ECKists knew how initiations were
> really done they would know that the rest
> of the crap about "inner communication"
> with the Mahanta was a lie as well!
>
> FYI-One, usually, had to keep in touch
> with others (H.I.s) and teach a Satsang Class
> etc. in order to get recognition for promotion.
> Of course, chelas needed to keep that EK
> membership current too. Otherwise, one
> can/will get passed over for initiation.
>
> Keeping in touch with and on a friendly
> basis with the RESA also helps with promotion.
> And, one has to watch one's "language."
> You cannot share other beliefs and question
> or "second guess" the Mahanta. The 2012
> myth or prediction is one such thing that
> would raise a red flag. Many chelas who
> are in rural areas, are disabled, and don't
> see or talk to other ECKists on a regular
> basis need to know how to play-the-game.
>
> BTW- Maybe Klemp is waiting until 2018
> to step down as LEM/Mahanta. That would
> give him 36 (completed) years or Three 12
> year cycles! It seems HK and his inflated ego
> wants to go down in history as the biggest
> and best Bullshitter in EK history... even above
> Twitchell! Plus, his comments about the "in
> training" versus the "full" Mahanta prevents
> anyone, after him, from being seen as "high."
> This is typical behaviour for a narcissist!
>
> Prometheus
>
> Hello Prometheus,
>
> Reckon I better clarify the Ma-li and I are one and the same. Don't
know how to use
> Yahoo mail very well, and might have clicked/checked something I
shouldn't have.
>
> Ok, As I said, I have been on this path since 1973. I never bought
the lifetime
> membership because I couldn't afford it. Anyway, you would expect
that after all these
> years I would be a "really" high initiate, but I'm "only" a 5th.
When I would quesstion the
> RESA about the slowness, she'd say that Harold was slowing things
down because too
> many were getting to far too fast. Sounded wrong to me, but what did
I know...I was just
> a lowly peon at the time. Of course, we couldn't question the Master
about it or there
> would never be another intiiation. God forbid I'd be a lowly loser
forever. lol
>
> Decades passed, and in 1991 I received my 5th. Yipee, I finally was
there with the big
> boys. Funny thing, nothing changed. Was that initiation all it was
cracked up to be, or
> was it just hype? Surely you rememeber when proceedure changed, and
5th's no longer
> automatically became clerics without taking the training. I was
grandfathered in because I
> had been a 5th for so long. Once again years passed, and I dodn't
give much thought to
> my staus as a cleric. As I said, I have a disability that precludes
much interaction with
> people in public settings.
>
> Then I get a letter from headquarters wanting me to fill out and
sign a form so they can
> have a private company do a criminal background check. This was to
make sure I wasn't a
> child predator, molester etc. Talk about a slap in the face!!!! It
was for insurance
> purposes, they said. Ok, I can accept that, but when I talked to
various other friends who
> are ministers at Christian churches, they were appalled. They hadn't
had to have
> background checks. All that aside, there was no way I would consent
to more government
> interference in my life, and refused to sign. Told them why also. (I
had just been
> informed that I had to change out my DSL box for the new one that
gives the gov't access
> to my pc...according to the new law.) Those two letters really
ticked me off.
>
> Long story short, after several correspondences, I still refused to
bow to their wishes, or to
> talk to the RESA(whom I do not know) about my decision. The told me
to send back my
> certificate and ID card. Wow! I NEVER got a certificate in the first
place, and had no idea
> such a thing even existed. Sent them the ID card, and that was the
end of it. How much
> attention is paid if they never sent me one, and why have 17 years
passed between
> initiations? I know the answer to that, but that's for another time.
Computers are
> marvelous things when they do the job that is supposed to be done
"on the inner". Oops.
>
> Namaste
> Ma-li
>
> Prometheus wrote:
> Hello Skypilot and welcome to the site!
>
> I'm curious to know what the ESC (head-
> quarters) did recently to make you feel
> uncomfortable and for you to have even
> more misgivings. What are some of the
> things that just don't feel right to you
> anymore? Please share more.
>
> It's true, the so called "Law of Silence"
> is a subdued way to manipulate chelas
> just as "Surrender" is. Thus, nobody is
> permitted to question things like the
> need for those Metal Detectors or Searches,
> or the fact that these still exist due to Klemp's
> fears and paranoia of past events (9/11).
>
> Actually, I didn't know of many H.I.s that
> had a "glow" but I did know plenty that
> were either insane, deluded, gullible, or
> were egotistical (narcissistic) wannabes
> and fake.
>
> The "glow" effect was usually a temporary
> phenomena and appeared when people were
> trying to make a positive impression when
> around other ECKists, or were so detached,
> aloof and deluded that they couldn't relate,
> with any empathy, as to what others were
> going through. Some actually believed
> they were having a "spiritual experience."
> One can get caught up in the whole "spiritual"
> feel good thing. Others just had fake smiles
> and know how to "play" a room or a crowd.
> However, for those who really "believed"
> it was typically a 2nd or 4th Plane "religious"
> or psychic experience just like with any other
> feel good religion. Many times it was just an
> "as if" act. Anyway, those are my impressions.
>
> Prometheus
>
> Skypilot4mr Wrote:
> I am a new member of this group,
> and don't know exactly how to do
> things here. So, I am just jumping
> in with an email to introduce myself.
>
> I have been a member of Eckankar
> since 1973, and have been debating
> with myself for the last few years about
> leaving the path. There are just too many
> things that don't feel right to me anymore.
>
> I live in a rural community, have a disability
> that precludes my going to ECK functions,
> and there is no one in the ECK community
> in the entire area, that I feel comfortable
> talking to about my misgivings. They still
> have "the glow" about being Eckists, and
> I feel there must be something wrong with
> me that I don't buy into everything anymore.
>
> After reading a few posts on this site,
> I now realize there are others like me
> who "see" things just aren't right anymore...
> if they ever were. I am an HI, but it really
> doesn't mean anything to me anymore...
> especially after what headquarters did
> recently. I am in a quandry. This doesn't
> go into much depth, but I'm writing in the
> blind right now.
>
> Hope to get to know you folks better,
> and you get to know me too.
>
> Skypilot4mr
>

Hello, Ma-li!

I'm enjoying reading your posts--welcome to ESA!! : )

Regarding your question about how Paul got away with
making eckankar and the eck masters up--it was a
different time for Paul. Now, there is the Internet and people
are much better able to discern Truth from fiction. There's a
lot of information in Cyberspace all for the finding!

As for the female eck master Kata Daki, it is time as Klemp
wrote in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters" for female eck masters
to make their presence known. In the past, times were too
physically harsh so it was better "to incarnate into a lifetime
devoted to the quest for Mastership" by choosing a male body.

But more importantly, Klemp needs the aid of one particular
female eck master, his wifey Joan. "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"
had in part a purpose of paving the way to bring Joan up to
Master position and be able to help Klemp hold onto the reins
of eck power. From page 67 in the chapter he wrote on Kati Daki,
Klemp explained: "Like all ECK Masters, Kata Daki serves the
Sugmad by helping others find the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
And like other ECK Masters, Kata Daki takes a special interest in
those once close to her in past lives. She guides them to the
Wayshower." And then in a few places, Klemp writes about Joan
showing up in chelas' dreams and bringing them to the mahanta . . .
Doesn't this sound like a set-up? I started writing about this on
this forum in early 2006 and we have made predictions about
what Klemp was plotting for Joan as Klemp struggles to maintain
his power positions. Last year at the EWWS, Klemp had Joan up
on stage with him, singing. But Klemp was very nasty toward her
which shocked many chelas who witnessed this. I am of the belief
that our discussions about his plans with Joan has made it
difficult for him to implement it. I can hardly wait until he
publishes a new book to see what he tries to sneak in his
deception aimed at  his followers!! LOL! But the female eck
master in my opinion was part of Klemp's scheme to elevate Joan.
  Just keep your eyes open for that! : )

BTW, Prometheus has a new link, it's the very first one on the
links page, that will take you to the general data base of the
Truth-Seeker. It has a lot of information on Twitchell, Gross
and Klemp I'm sure you'll find interesting.

I'm really sorry you had those disappointing experiences with
eckankar. But good that your eyes are wide open now--that is
Spiritual growth, isn't it!!

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Ma-li <mhstarlings@...>
wrote:
>
> Good Morning All,
>  
> Looks like the few Eckists thee were in this area back in the beginning,
missed the boat
on the 7th initiations by the late 80s -early 90s.  The highest there was then
was a 4th. 
Oh well...
>  
> If I am understanding you, people like me will never get further because we
don't have
the resources, have health issues, or may have pissed off someone higher up who
is now
in a position of power re: initiations etc.  Gee, do you think when the RESA's
best friend
takes it upon herself to write ESC that another chela isn't an active member,
that it would
make a difference?  Especially, if that person then becomes RESA after the
friend steps
down a year later, and remains there for over a decade.
>  
> In the above instance, I was an active member in as much that I paid my yearly
membership, wrote reports, and went to functions when I was able.  I just wasn't
in the
same class as the above mentioned people.  I was a small business owner, they
were in
the medical profession by marriage.  I didn't have the money or the time they
had to
devote to promoting Eckanakar.  Maybe I'm all wet about this, but I noticed
after ESC was
told by this 4th that I was inactive, other chela's kept getting their
initiations, but I never
got another one.  At some point I didn't really care anymore, and there were too
many
inconsistencies about many things in the ECK community.  I have never been an
ass kisser,
and don't plan to start at this point. lol
>  
> I do know that when word gets out that I'v left the path, I will no longer be
friends with
several of the people...not by my choice, but by theirs.  Then the gossip will
fly, and all
sorts of things that aren't true will be spread about the area.  Small price to
pay for
freedom.
>  
> In short, guess I didn't play the game very well.  Of course, I never knew
there was a
game when it came to one's spiritual beliefs.  Thought we were all on the same
page, and
were there for spiritual growth.  Hadn't a clue that it was just like in the
business world,
and the little, honest, hardworking guy gets stepped on by those wanting
whatever place
of power was available.  I don't understand the need for power, and for causing
grief for
others.  Power makes for strange bedfellows.
>  
> The thing that appealed to me in the beginning was that Eckankar was an
individual
path.  In a way that's BS, and I see that now.  Makes me wonder about the many
who are
new to the path.  When, if ever, will they reach the point I've reached, and
will they be as
confused about it as I've been?  I didn't have a clue about all the things that
have gone
down until I read some of the links on your group home page.  Blew my mind, to
say the
least.  So much deception, outright lies, and corruption by those we put our
trust in. 
Eckankar, the path that was supposed to be different, is no different that any
other
religion.  Granted, there is truth to be learned from studying it, but then,
there is truth in
all religions.  We just have to discern what's truth from what's garbage.
>  
> Did Paul just make up the number he used as LEM to lend creadence to the
ancientness
of his religion?  If he made it all up, how did he get away with the plagerism
etc.? 
>  
> Was the "new" female ECK Master also a fabrication by HK to pacify the women
coming
to the path?  Seems I can remember someone telling me many years ago that there
could
never be a female because of energies, or such. 
>  
> How do you clip these posts in Yahoo so that they don't go on forever and
ever?
>  
> Namaste
> Ma-li