Hello everyone,

This my first post.

Has anyone read either of these two newer books by Doug Marman? Does
anyone know what Doug's current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest writings of his? I
stumbled onto Doug's web site while doing some research.

If you are not familiar with these books, you can read about them here:

http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html

Thanks!

Hello,
Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!

Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
for yourself!

I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
knows too many dirty little details and where the
skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
equal a 13th Century  2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
(Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
HK's Eckankar Lexicon!

Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
January 1969.

PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
was experimenting with various titles for himself
and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!

Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
has time and money and friendships invested, and because
he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!

If you want to read current views held by Marman
then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.

Prometheus

ringing_radience wrote:
>
Hello everyone,
>
This my first post.
>
Has anyone read either of these two newer books
by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
while doing some research.
>
If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
about them here:
>
http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
>
Thanks!
>

How has Klemp helped the world? Fubbi and
Rebazar helped Columbus to find "protein"
for Europe. LOL!

Did EK Master Klemp inspire and help Charlie
Wilson to defeat Communism? Did EK Master
Klemp inspire CEO's to outsource U.S. manufacturing
jobs to China in order to create Capitalism there
and, thereby, defeat Communism!

Really! What has Klemp done if Rebazar and Fubbi
were involved with helping Europeans?

For one thing, Fubbi and Rebazar are fictional
characters created by Twitchell. At the most,
these are other people whose names have been
changed and who PT studied under at one time.
Still, Twitchell fantasized and lied about their
feats and powers in order to benefit himself!

Also, there was never a problem with "protein
sources" in Europe due to trade routes with other
closer countries. The Americas had more problems
with their "protein sources" than Europe!

So, once again... what has Klemp done for the world?
Nothing! He is a person who has never been able to
give or to receive love. His relationships with others
are lacking and depict his lifelong dysfunctional attitude.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

Prometheus

Klemp used Columbus, Fubbi, and Rebazar to Rewrite History!

Hi All,
I thought I'd combine some posts on the Columbus-
Rebazar-Fubbi Lie that Klemp promotes. Klemp distorts
the facts. At the same time, IF what he states was true,
then Rebazar and Fubbi and the Mahanta Consciousness
must take responsibility for ALL OF THE NEGATIVE ACTIONS
AND RESULTS OF COLUMBUS' VOYAGES!

Understanding the basis of this fiction [ECK Legend] where
Rebazar and Fubbi influence Columbus on the "Inner Planes,"
for the good of the whole, is very relevant to seeing through
the Myth/Legend/Miracles and half-truths that all religions
use to deceive, to confuse, and to control their followers.

All religions do this, with their own unique spin, via giving
their followers faith, hope, and beliefs, as well as, the imagination
needed to alleivate their fears and to "answer" their questions
through prayer (etc.), scripture, or within (the inner). The faithful
must place their trust in the same lower "truths" their "enlightened"
leaders have fed them and their ancestors over generations.

Newer religions like Eckankar are no better than the older ones!
ECKists don't seem to understand that The ECK Initiations Are
A KAL Trap! The belief in the initiations, and the social aspect,
i.e. Eck friends, are what keep many people from leaving the Org!
Look at all of that time and those initiations [stature, (pride) or
security, (from fear/unknown)] that they have invested!

Plus, what do Eckists replace (Eckankar) their religion with? Freedom!
They can replace their religion with the Freedom of Soul! This
is how it was meant to be! The Eck initiations were created by
Twitchell so that he would have the highest... it was his idea
so why not have the highest (the 14th)! Really! it's that simple!

Eckists really need to use some common sense and their minds
just as they do to prevent themselves from falling into other
scams while in this world! And, there's nothing wrong with
using some Logic either!

Prometheus


Hi Etznab, Mish, Sharon, and All,
Even though Europe had been undergoing a "Little Ice Age"
(1300-1850) there was a greater desire for those with Power
and Money to seek more and even greater riches and power!

Therefore, Klemp's story of Rebazar and Fubbi influencing
Columbus on the "Inner" and misdirecting CC and his course
to India for the Greater Good, "protein" for Europeans, seems
strange and anti-ECK! This "inner plane" influence was a Lower
Plane, psychic, or Kal act! It is Not an act of Detachment (Vairag)
or of Non-attachment. [Actually, Columbus thought he could
just sail West to India. And, if LAND wasn't there one could!]

I really doubt that most ECKists have thought this out or have
looked at the implications of this ECK Legend "in fact."

FIRST, What happened to the Law of Non-interference? Why
is the "Inner" manipulation/mind-control by others (REBAZAR
& FUBBI) who are either real or ficticious seen as okay by Klemp?

SECOND, due to the "Little Ice Age," in Europe, the closest source
of other grains (sources of protein for both humans and livestock)
Unaffected By The Cold are the countries to the South which have
been (for centuries) a source of trade.

THIRD, Europe had more sources of protein grains (and fruit and
vegetables) than the Americas. And, Europe had domesticated animals!
What Dependable sources of protein (crops) did the Americas have
except for Corn? Not as many!

The Americas didn't have domesticated animals (until the Europeans
brought their own) and meat is the best source of protein! Therefore,
the native people could not depend on hunting enough meat! This
is why the countries that have the best sources of protein (grains,
domesticated animals for meat, eggs, cheese, milk, etc.) have more
advanced civilizations. The body and mind need protein.

FOURTH, due to the discovery by Columbus (and Rebazar & Fubbi)
others followed and TOBACCO was, also, brought back to Europe.

FIFTH, What happened to the indigenous people that Columbus,
and those who came after him, came in contact with? They were
murdered, raped, died from diseases, and enslaved due to the
search for Gold and Silver! Rebazar and Fubbi are responsible for
this! I wonder what the Central & South American ECK Chelas think
about this Columbus-Rebazar-Fubbi Story?

SIXTH, WHY are ECK Masters concerned with the Greater "Good,"
or health, of these Europeans over others throughout history?
Maybe Klemp can point out some other humantarian aid that
the ECK Masters have given Without Consent (via the INNER) to
other groups of people, or for the Good of the Whole...
and Civilization. Klemp preaches a non-involved and passive
view of world affairs.

BTW - On Amazon.com one can look at the index of
"The LITTLE ICE AGE: How Climate Made History 1300-1850"
by Brian Fagan.

Prometheus


Mish wrote:

HI, Etznab and All!

I didn't see the PBS show on Columbus, but in my studies of history
and of Columbus, I understand that Columbus was commissioned to
search for a water route to the East, for safer access to the treasures
there, rather than going the dangerous land way. Gold was one of the
riches being sought as well as spices and other desired things in
Europe--however, never did I learn or hear that Europe was in need
of protein!!! LOL! It amazes me that Klemp "dreamed" that idea up,
but maybe he just tests from time to time to see how gullible his
chelas are. I mean Klemp can't survive with too many smart people
under his command--so, making up dumb stories, seems to just
attract the extremely gullible, delusional and easily manipulated
kinds of people that Klemp likes best! Believing the story about
Fubbi and Rebazar assisting Columbus just indicates that if one
can believe that, then the rest of the eckankar crap is also
believeable! How else do con men choose their victims, but to see
how gullible some people are? If a person is in the same class of
people who accepts the words of an authority figure without question
then that person is just another gullible person who happens to be
in a different group from the other gullible people in the world--but
still that person is gullible.

Also this minority way of thinking in eckankar might seem novel,
but it doesn't mean that eckists are anymore special or enlightened
than any other people on this earth. However, such eck stories
that distort and erroneously inform, really just highlights how
dumb the teachings are and how gullible the chelas are to let it
slide by them! : )

After joining eckankar one discovers that it can't deliver the promises
it makes. The excuse given is that one needs more initiations in order
to open and expand one's consciousness. Still this does not work
either. This is why eckankar relies upon one's imagination to fulfill
one's desires--including the desire to belong to a religion. The problem
with this is that the 30 year plus eckists have come full circle, because
everyone, including non-eckists, have imaginations and are no less
spiritually advanced than these high inititates. So it all comes down
to imagination and delusion, and this is how eckankar works for
some people!

Mish

etznab wrote:

Mish,

There was a story about Columbus discovering America on PBS,
Channel 9 recently. I didn't get time to watch it, but I heard that the
voyage did have something to do with one mineral in particular -
GOLD!

Etznab

mish wrote:


Hi, All!

Happy Columbus Day! : )

In honor of Columbus Day, I am pulling up this post from
Jan. 2006 in which I cite HK in his book "Those Wonderful
ECK Masters" giving credit to Fubbi Quantz for assisting
Columbus in discovering America. I think it only fitting that
we remember Fubbi and Klemp when honoring Columbus! LOL!

Here's the old post that shows how historically incorrect Klemp
and his org would like his chelas to be:

mish wrote:

Hi, All!

I believe eckist parents need to be concerned about what HK/Eckankar
is teaching in regards to history. From HK's newest book, "Those
Wonderful Eck Masters," page 87 comes this history lesson:

"Fubbi Quantz once served as the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.
This was during the time of Buddha, around the sixth century BC.
After completing his mission, he immortalized his body and continues
to serve the spiritual needs of mankind. He later served as teacher
of Firdusi, the Persian poet, and was also the spiritual guide of
Columbus. It was Fubbi Quantz who inspired Columbus to sail to the
Americas, to open the vast store-house of new sorely needed sources
of fruits, grains, legumes, vegetables, and especially protein
there.

It was then the late fifteenth century. In his travels around
Europe, Fubbi Quantz had witnessed the appalling health of the
European people. It was in a shocking state. They had little energy
left over after a day's work for contemplation or reflection, the
moment of quiet which is the sweet drink of Soul. So Fubbi Quantz
gave Columbus a vision one night. In it he showed the potential of
the New World. This vision fired the imagination of Columbus and
thus set into motion the events that led him to sail his three tiny
ships westward into unknown waters. In the Americas, then, European
explorers found both precious minerals and abundant stores of life-
giving foods. Thus, Fubbi Quantz revived the food stock and
nutrition of the Old World."

I don't know what HK is drinking/smoking these days, but what a
fairy tale he spins here in his new book! But, in reality, this
story about the ECK Master Fubbi Quantz clearly shows that this is
all fakery and lies! LOL!

But on a very serious note, how can Eckists read this sort of stuff
and continue to support it? Come on, people, do a reality check and
get out of that crazy lying cult org!

What Klemp is really selling is "service." Fubbi is portrayed as
doing a "service" to mankind, and Klemp wants all eckists now to
do "service" for the mahanta's mission. However, it seems the Law of
Noninterference is being overlooked in this fabrication of history.
Karma, free will, and man's spiritual evolution with that of Soul
and of Spirit should not be interfered with by fictional eck
masters, sometimes disguised as angels. LOL!

Klemp's story about Fubbi is a myth--it's a lie. Every eckist out
there should be highly embarrassed to have the public reading this
trash and distortion of historical facts. Fubbi does not exist and
never did, as evidenced in Klemp's story in "Those Wonderful ECK
Masters!" This one fresh example indicates the whole of eckankar is
filled with lies and distortions of truth that any rational person
cannot overlook. Everything in eckankar needs to be questioned! Sane
people would view this book as a joke, and shaking their heads, move
on and away from it as quickly as possible!

Mish
***********************************************************
Klemp uses this "Zen Master" quote from Charlie
Wilson's War in his 2008 EK Springtime Seminar Talk.

prometheus wrote:
>
> Here's another account of the negative and
> pessimistic Zen Master story that Klemp used.
> I GOOGLED this on Charlie Wilson's War:
>

> "Avrakotos is facetious to the core, but driven
> by a genuine desire to help the Afghans take
> down the Soviet Red Army. At the film's conclusion,
> even after the Soviets admit defeat and pull
> out of Afghanistan, he is pessimistic about
> the future. He tells the story of the Zen Master
> and the fourteen year old boy. On his fourteenth
> birthday, the boy recives a horse as a present
> and all the villagers say 'how lucky!' and the
> Zen Master says 'We'll see'. When he is sixteen,
> he falls off the horse and breaks his leg and all
> the villages say 'how unlucky' and the Zen Master
> says 'We'll see'. A few years later, there is a war
> and all the young men are enlisted to fight except
> the boy who still has a broken leg. All the villagers
> say 'how lucky' and the Zen Master says 'We'll see'.
>
>
> Both men were quick to see the problem in helping
> to win a war (albeit covertly) but then failing to
> regenerate and re-eduacte those people who had
> been left maimed, homeless and disenfranchised,
> with no strong government waiting to take over once
> the Russians had left. It was a war that changed history
> for good and as Wilson himself has commented since
> 'we achieved great things, we just fucked up the endgame!'"
>
>
> Klemp, too, thinks he has "achieved great things"
> (supposedly), but has screwed up the "endgame"
> for all ECKists! However, it is just a "game" after all
> isn't it?
>
> Prometheus

From notes of Klemp's 2008 EK Springtime Seminar talk:

HK: "The first story was about a Zen Master who
had a small band of followers. This story has a lot
of versions, by the way.
> >
One of the followers had a son who wanted
a horse. The father worked hard to get his
son a horse, and all the boy's friends said,
'That's wonderful!'
> >
'We'll see,' said the Zen Master, reserving
judgment.
> >
  YEARS LATER, the young man was riding the
horse and fell off, breaking his leg. Thereafter,
he always walked with a limp. The young man's
friends said, 'Oh, that's awful!'
> >
'We'll see,' said the Zen Master, again reserving
judgment.
> >
A while later, war broke out, and the young man
escaped being drafted for the army because he
had a bad leg. His friends, most of whom had to
join the army, said, 'You're so lucky!'
> >
BUT the Zen Master said, 'We'll see'..."
[end of quote]
> >
It seems Klemp added more to this story than
was necessary! TWO "We'll see" comments by
the Zen Master were all that were needed to
make the point! Apparently, Klemp finds it
necessary to go into a longer explanation.
Is this due to Klemp's grade-school mentality
and consciousness or that of his audience?
> >
When I first heard this "horse" story involving
a "Zen Master" I thought it took place hundreds
of years ago! So, what's this about this young
man with the broken leg getting out from being
"drafted?" Did they even have a "draft?"
> >
Apparently Klemp needed to make this story
his "own" by distorting it with another "version."
> >
However, isn't it interesting "connecting the dots"
and seeing Where and How Klemp gets his info
to continue the scam! Only a 14th Initiate Mahanta
like Klemp has this much "original" insight and
wisdom! NOT! LOL!
> >
Prometheus
p.s. I wonder how many ECKists are walking around
saying, "We'll see!" But, I can see why the judgmental
and pessimistic Klemp would like this story and related
to it!
>

Thanks for your response prometheus_973.

To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
Eckankar movement?

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
> stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
> that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
> that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
>
> Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
> for yourself!
>
> I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
> but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
> knows too many dirty little details and where the
> skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
> him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
> so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
> inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
> Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
> Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
> the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
> as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
> equal a 13th Century  2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
> (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
> HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
>
> Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
> and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
> of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
> dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
> or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
> January 1969.
>
> PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
> in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
> of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
> past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
> from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
> was experimenting with various titles for himself
> and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
>
> Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
> because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
> has time and money and friendships invested, and because
> he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
> have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
> a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
> breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
>
> If you want to read current views held by Marman
> then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
>
> Prometheus
>
> ringing_radience wrote:
> >
> Hello everyone,
> >
> This my first post.
> >
> Has anyone read either of these two newer books
> by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
> current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
> and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
> writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
> while doing some research.
> >
> If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
> about them here:
> >
> http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
> >
> Thanks!
> >
>

It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )

Hi, ringing_radience!

Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
it.

(Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
time.)

Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .

Welcome to the site!

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
<ringing_radience@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
>
> To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
> was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
> newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
> trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
> to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
> is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
> ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
> Eckankar movement?
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
> > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
> > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
> > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
> >
> > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
> > for yourself!
> >
> > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
> > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
> > knows too many dirty little details and where the
> > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
> > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
> > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
> > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
> > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
> > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
> > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
> > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
> > equal a 13th Century  2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
> > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
> > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
> >
> > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
> > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
> > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
> > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
> > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
> > January 1969.
> >
> > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
> > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
> > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
> > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
> > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
> > was experimenting with various titles for himself
> > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
> >
> > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
> > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
> > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
> > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
> > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
> > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
> > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
> >
> > If you want to read current views held by Marman
> > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> > ringing_radience wrote:
> > >
> > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > This my first post.
> > >
> > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
> > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
> > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
> > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
> > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
> > while doing some research.
> > >
> > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
> > about them here:
> > >
> > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
> > >
> > Thanks!
> > >
> >
>

Hi Mish and All,
I liked your post! I think that Marman's real
motives for doing what he's doing stems from
ego. He likes to talk and talk and talk. He seems
to need the attention (and money).

Marman talks about Twitchell's distortions (lies)
and even of how PT substituted fictional characters
and names for real people, but explains this away
as being some sort of  "paradox!" LOL! However,
a Lie is still a Lie! Apparently, "outer" lies justify
the "higher" message. But Twitchell lied about
that as well!

By Any Means Necessary is not the foundation
by which to build trust or an organization, but
it does seem to fit perfectly with the philosophy
that other religions and governments tend to
practice continuously! Therefore, Twitchell's and
Klemp's Eckankar Church is in good company!

Doug doesn't understand that the "inner"
imaginations and "spiritual" experiences
and "miracles" of other people in other
religions, outside of Eckankar, are even more
valid than those "experiences" that members
of Eckankar have! There are far more and
far greater "spiritual" experiences and
"inspiration" Outside of Eckankar than Inside
of Eckankar!

For example: Rumi was Not an ECKist regardless
of what the liars claim! Besides, as I've stated before...
Klemp talks out of both sides of his mouth
when he promotes Rumi to ECKists while putting
down Rumi's religion (i.e. beliefs and inspiration)
as being from a 2nd or 4th Plane God who Klemp,
as well as, PT's EK Dogma claims is KAL or SATAN!

Just look at HK's comments in his "Autobiography
of a Modern Prophet" on page 385. Also, look
at the index in the Shariyat (EK's Holy Book) for
"Satan" and you will discover that this is another
name for Kal.

Klemp (Marman & Eckankar) see the "God" that
all other religions worship as being a 2nd or 4th
Plane God who is also known as Kal and Satan!
Whereas, Klemp (the walking talking and real God)
claims to reside on all planes up to and including
the 14th Plane... and even higher! Amazing... No,
not really... it's an obvious lie! Klemp is more like
a second class Pope, or a Billy Graham poser!

Really! Klemp can't even heal his loyal followers of
cancer! 4th Plane Jesus would be able to!

The proof is in the pudding! This seems to be
a blind spot for all ECKists, especially, Marman!
And, reality requires more than just a vivid imagination,
and positive thinking. Being in denial of Truth is
the real sickness!

What it really comes down to is Don't Trust Anyone
to tell you about God or Spirit or Soul... trust yourself!

If you can't trust yourself (yet) just don't buy into the
whole load of what others are telling you. Take what
you need or works for you the individual Soul at this
time. Unfortunately, most ECKists will claim to use this
method, as well, but they delude themselves. They
need to pay that annual membership "donation" in
order to still be eligible for those coveted initiations
and they "need" to be co-dependent upon a middleman/
Mahanta for their "spiritual" validation to exist!

Klemp teaches ECKists to become powerless and unable
to take responsibility for their own actions. The chela gives
all power over to the "Inner Master" (Klemp) and thereby
denies their own. EK chelas and H.I.s should have an end
goal in mind for this lifetime. This should lead to Self-Mastery
absent of religion, religious leaders and middlemen!

It's a real Catch-22 ploy but those like Klemp, as well
as his underlings, will use various tactics to twist the
truth in order to manipulate those fearful, gullible and
trusting. Once one has elevated another to a pedestal
to be admired it usually takes a real shock or revelation
to show one the Truth. Until that happens one can only
point out the similarities of Eckankar to other religious
frauds! ECKists need to think back to their real spiritual
goals before joining Eckankar... it didn't have anything
to do with initiation numbers!

Prometheus


mishmisha wrote:
>
> It's all about Harold--which is just the way Harold likes it! : )
>
> Hi, ringing_radience!
>
> Interesting that you bring up Doug Marman. True we have
> mentioned him from time to time, but ESA's focus is on Twitchell
> and Klemp--especially Klemp since he is the current leader (25
> years plus) of the scamming org. called eckankar. However, I
> have read some of his excerpts and also the dialogues that Doug
> Marman has presented on other websites. I do not care to
> read his stuff--I don't really see the point. I think he has stated
> that he is not an official spokesman for eckankar anyway. Besides,
> Doug himself has mentioned that "The Whole Truth" wasn't really
> the whole truth! : ) But it is interesting that you are wondering
> what his purpose is--maybe Doug is preparing for when Harold
> does step down, anticipating a splinter group that he might
> capture away from the original org? That's an interesting idea
> and maybe a possibility. Of course, we have discussed here that
> Harold has been trying to situate Joan in a more powerful
> position, such as co-L.E.M., in order for Harold to hold the
> power for a longer time. I suppose Harold's afraid of what will
> become of eckankar after he's gone--maybe a big ditching of
> all of his books, talks, writings, pics, etc. Sort of like what
> happened with Darwin, perhaps? Lots of speculations of course,
> but Harold's actions and words do make one wonder, doesn't
> it.
>
> (Top two reasons I've not read Marman's books: 1. I don't
> want to pay him for his books; 2. I don't want to expend the
> time.)
>
> Right now, I'm waiting for Klemp to come out with his next
> exciting book--"Those Wonderful ECK Masters" was a jewel
> for sure!! It should be fun to read and review a next book by
> Harold. LOL! Have you read "Those Wonderful ECK Masters"--
> it's a fun read and sort of clever of Harold the way he plays
> with the concept of female eck masters just now coming out and
> how Joan is also written about in this book about eck masters. . . .
>
> Welcome to the site!
>
> Mish
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ringing_radience"
> <ringing_radience@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your response prometheus_973.
> >
> > To be clear though, my real purpose in posting this question here
> > was to find out if anyone here has actually read either of these 2
> > newer books by Doug. And if so, where exactly does it seem he is
> > trying to go with them? In other words, did he write these two books
> > to try and show the validity of the inner teachings of Eckankar, or
> > is he forming a breakaway group of his own that has very different
> > ideas about these teachings that are not in harmony with the current
> > Eckankar movement?
> >
> > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > > Welcome to the site! Doug is an EK apologist who
> > > stated on Ford Johnson's (former) Truth-Seeker Site
> > > that EK Master Rebazar Tarzs is probably myth, and
> > > that the Jewish Holocaust, also, was probably myth!
> > >
> > > Check our LINKS page to read these DM comments
> > > for yourself!
> > >
> > > I'm sure that Klemp finds Doug an embarrassment,
> > > but Klemp knows better than to alienate him. Doug
> > > knows too many dirty little details and where the
> > > skeletons are hidden. This is why Klemp still befriends
> > > him, tolerates, and placates him by mentioning Rumi
> > > so often. Rumi is Doug's hero, although, Rumi was
> > > inspired by and worshipped a 4th Plane God (i.e. Kal/
> > > Satan). Refer to Klemp's "Autobiography of a Modern
> > > Prophet," pg.385, and look up "Satan" in the index of
> > > the Shariyat. However, this fact seems to elude ECKists,
> > > as well as, the fact that Klemp can't write poetry to even
> > > equal a 13th Century  2nd/4th Plane "follower" of ECK
> > > (Kal) and Rumi wasn't even an EK Master according to
> > > HK's Eckankar Lexicon!
> > >
> > > Yes, I've seen Doug's site! Doug is very hard-headed
> > > and evasive, but he does point out some of the distortions
> > > of Twitchell that have been carried over to form current
> > > dogma. Doug agrees that Twitchell didn't create/use
> > > or mention the 14th Initiation or the Mahanta title until
> > > January 1969.
> > >
> > > PT was supposedly initiated to the 12th by Rebazar
> > > in 1965 and should have "known" about and spoken
> > > of the "Mahanta" sooner. However, when one reads
> > > past issues of the monthly "The Wisdom Notes"
> > > from "Jan. 1968-Oct. 1971" one can see how PT
> > > was experimenting with various titles for himself
> > > and didn't mention the Mahanta until Jan. 1, 1969!
> > >
> > > Therefore, it seems that Doug is hanging onto Eckankar
> > > because he's a 7th with authority, power, respect (ego),
> > > has time and money and friendships invested, and because
> > > he has an EK following! This is how Ford Johnson should
> > > have handled things (and used the Internet) while creating
> > > a power base for himself within the EK org. and before
> > > breaking all ties with Klemp and Company!
> > >
> > > If you want to read current views held by Marman
> > > then just visit (GOOGLE) the A.R.E. site.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > > ringing_radience wrote:
> > > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > > >
> > > This my first post.
> > > >
> > > Has anyone read either of these two newer books
> > > by Doug Marman? Does anyone know what Doug's
> > > current stance is on Eckankar, or how Harold
> > > and Eckankar view Doug Marman and these latest
> > > writings of his? I stumbled onto Doug's web site
> > > while doing some research.
> > > >
> > > If you are not familiar with these books, you can read
> > > about them here:
> > > >
> > > http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/index.html
> > > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Leanne!

I believe it serves Klemp's purpose to bring out the
female eck masters since it will allow him to place Joan
in a position of authority beside him, like co-L.E.M.
After reading his book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters,"
it seems that Klemp is inserting the idea in a somewhat
subtle way that Joan would be elevated to eck master.
However, for the slow learning chela, when reflecting
back to this book, it is obvious that Joan had already
become an eck master, just like Kata Daki. Klemp spins
Joan into some of the stories showing how she is acting
like an eck master--well, the book is interesting to read
when you look for this subtle slight of hand that Klemp
is doing regarding Joan.

Klemp is looking at his age and energy in staying at the
helm of the eck org. He had asserted at one time that he
would hold the leadership position 10 to 20 years, but he
has well exceeded it now. And it doesn't look like he is anytime
soon ready to step down.

In "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," pages 235-236, Klemp
addresses how long he would serve as L.E.M and if any initiates
were in training. He wrote: ". . . a few initiates were indeed
in training for leadership in ECK, but no one was ready yet
to assume the responsibility. It might take several years or
many more for the first one to complete all the tests. Accordingly,
the Master would continue for another cycle as the Mahanta,
the Living ECK Master."

So, H.I.'s and the power players like Peter Skelsky still have
a long wait to become the next chosen one. Quite a contrast
to how long Klemp waited! LOL! But Klemp is still holding on
to the power and seems intent not to let go--and the "another
cycle" would be how long, 12 years?

Klemp needs Joan though because he can't trust sharing the
limelight with anyone else. He most likely fears that he might
suffer the same fate as Darwin--he might have done unto him
what he did to Gross! : )

Klemp paves the way for Joan becoming a female eck master
by giving Kata Daki the same attention he does to the other
eck masters in "Those Wonderful ECK Masters," by devoting
a chapter to each, including a chapter for this female eck master.
Klemp explains that now is the time for the female masters to
appear with this explanation on page 63:

"Before we get too far along, we need to say a word about
the female members of the Vairagi Order. There are precious
few of them in relation to the number of males, and it is for
a good reason. In past ages, and sometimes even today, it
was easier for a male to move about in harsh societies and
environments. So a Soul that had earned the right to incarnate
into a lifetime devoted to the quest for Mastership often chose
a male body. It was simply easier to get around in. That is not
to say the individual's quest for truth was easier. It was not. . . . "

Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
in becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's predecessor,
as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp.

So, bringing out female eck masters today fits in with the
continuing conning of the chelas--Klemp is revising the teachings
to suit his specific purposes. He needs Joan to have some legitimate
power in order to help him hold onto the reins of the eck org.

Role and rolling, very funny! : )

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Leanne Thompson
<le_anne_thompson@...> wrote:
>
>
> I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck masters (something to do
with
energies. I think ego.) ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
Klemps
role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing their tune now.
Whatever
happened to Grahm ???? who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
experiences in a book?
>  
> Leanne
>

Doing research about Eckankar
history for educational purposes
I am attempting to clarify some
dates.

    Primarily, When did Paul and
Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
but not certain of day and month)
And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
appear in print.

    I'd asked "these" questions on
A.R.E., but so far no response.

    Do you have the date someplace
in your archives for when Paul and
Gail were married? Want to hazard
a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
first appeared in print?

Etznab

Hello All,
I think Mish explained Klemp's slight of hand tactics
rather well! Yes, in 2005 when Those Wonderful EK
Masters was written Klemp talked about being around
for another (12 year) cycle. Therefore, Klemp is planning
to stay for Three 12 year cycles, or 36 years. So, HK's
reign is to be from 1981-2017! Or, would that be 2018!
Klemp was 39 years old (1942) when DG made him the
LEM. Klemp is 66 years old now, as is, his first wife and
8th initiate Marge. I think Gail (who "made" Darwin)  is
67 years old and Joan is still 65. Anyway, Klemp doesn't
want to let go of all his powers (as Mahanta) until he is
75 or 76 years old! This is Why HK needs Joan to help
him with the running of the org.

Therefore, Klemp needs to pave the way for Joan becoming
the next LEM or Co-LEM. For Klemp to say that there is
no one ready after 27 years is a lie! Besides, some of these
ECKists have been members as long as he has, thus, they
have been "in training" for 40 years! Anyway, this is why
Klemp is placing Joan on the same level with Kata Daki (KD).
Even Kata Daki is a fake EK Master and was created 9 years
after Twitchell's sister's (Kay-Dee) death. Anyway, this is
what the older H.I.s have to look forward to. Eventually,
(by 2017 or 2018) someone, Marge and Harold's daughter's
age, will become the next Emperor of Eckankar.

On another note:
As far as when Twitchell first created and spoke of Rebazar?
I think PT probably created RT around 1955. This was when
Kirpal Singh first came to the U.S. and this was when Twitchell
was initiated by Kirpal. PT had been writing fiction, plagiarizing,
exaggerating (to extremes at times) and using name and word
substitution in his articles from almost day one! IMO Twit simply
used Kirpal's status and example and Ruhani Satsang dogma
to form the basis for his fictional character of (master) Rebazar
Tarzs.

Prometheus


Leanne wrote:
I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women
eck masters (something to do with energies. I think ego .)
ANd now they are comming up with kata daki. And Joan
Klemps role (maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they
are changing their tune now. Whatever happened to Grahm ????
who was kicked out and ford johnson had him write his
experiences in a book?


Mish wrote:
[snip]
"Note that nothing is mentioned here about the Masculine Principle
that was taught in the earlier eck teachings as a prerequisite
to becoming an eck master, or that Vairagi Adepts are only 'just
men.' Klemp is opening the door for female leadership, but of
course, that would be Joan and only Joan. He might even have
reflected back on the messy position in choosing PT's successor,
as to how much easier it would have been if Gail had had some
official authority as an eck master instead of using a dream
by a lover and future wife of Darwin Gross as justification! This
brought into question the authority and validity of Gross as LEM
and his authority to pass his title and powers on to Klemp."


Etznab wrote:
"Doing research about Eckankar
history for educational purposes
I am attempting to clarify some
dates.

Primarily, When did Paul and
Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
but not certain of day and month)
And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
appear in print.

I'd asked "these" questions on
A.R.E., but so far no response.

Do you have the date someplace
in your archives for when Paul and
Gail were married? Want to hazard
a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
first appeared in print?"

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "D.R.D."
<etznab@...> wrote:
>
>
>    Doing research about Eckankar
> history for educational purposes
> I am attempting to clarify some
> dates.
>
>    Primarily, When did Paul and
> Gail get married? (I assume 1964,
> but not certain of day and month)
> And, when did Rebazar Tarzs first
> appear in print.
>
>    I'd asked "these" questions on
> A.R.E., but so far no response.
>
>    Do you have the date someplace
> in your archives for when Paul and
> Gail were married? Want to hazard
> a guess when the name Rebazar Tarzs
> first appeared in print?
>
> Etznab
>

    The question was: "And, when did
Rebazar Tarzs first appear in print."

    This is what I am looking for. A
real live tangible artifact. A written
record of the name preserved over time.

    The earliest records I know about
are for the year 1964. I don't doubt
there could be others, although I don't
recall any.

    All of the Eckankar books I've seen
(or heard about) that mention Rebazar
Tarzs have a copyright date post-1964.

    Has anybody seen the name Rebazar
Tarzs in print prior to 1964? This is
closer to what I wanted to ask.

Etznab

Hello All,
I really don't know and probably no one
will ever know when Twit first dreamed
up and wrote about Rebazar... except for
maybe Gail.

PT probably included RT in one of those
early Orion articles. However, the date
doesn't really matter in the grand scheme
of things. One can't nail down every tidbit
of history.

Afterall, Rebazar is a fictional character
... all EK Masters are fictional! RT was
based upon PT's real master Kirpal Singh,
but Kirpal was no more special than you
or me and neither is Klemp!

Therefore, the origins of Eckankar which
is Sant Mat, Radhasoami, and Ruhani Satsang
is crap as well! LEMs, Popes, and World
Leaders are just opportunists who have
a following with their own special interests.
They, also, have been in the right place
at the right time, and someone had to fill
the vacant position! Look at how Klemp
positioned himself at the ESC with Darwin!
Positioning oneself opens the doors of
opportunity, and for those working and
manipulating behind the scenes... the
dumber the better! HK and GW have a lot
in common!

Prometheus
PS- No I don't get to listen to EK talks for free,
but if you still have some EK friends you could,
maybe, go to their house to listen to the next
broadcast with them. Some ECKists get together
"officially" and "unofficially" in order to save money
(or to collect donations) and to discuss the talk
afterwards. Go to an "unofficial" broadcast...
these are more fun! Still, one would need to be
careful not to criticize Klemp's idiotic remarks
openly/directly. This is when one needs to "surrender"
their honesty. This is, also, when the "Law of Silence"
works in Klemp's favor... again!


Etznab wrote:
The question was: "And, when did
Rebazar Tarzs first appear in print."

This is what I am looking for. A
real live tangible artifact. A written
record of the name preserved over time.

The earliest records I know about
are for the year 1964. I don't doubt
there could be others, although I don't
recall any.

All of the Eckankar books I've seen
(or heard about) that mention Rebazar
Tarzs have a copyright date post-1964.

Has anybody seen the name Rebazar
Tarzs in print prior to 1964? This is
closer to what I wanted to ask.

************************************************
le_anne_wrote:
>
Thank you for those passwords. Do you also get
the passwords to the talks to listen and criticize
for free?
>  
Thanks

Leanne

PS
I think one would probably be better off looking into
radoshami or sudar singh since eck copied from them.
>

prometheus wrote:

> Hi Leanne,
> Welcome to the site! Perhaps you could have
> an H.I. friend scan and email or snail mail you
> the info you are seeking. Or, you could have
> an H.I. friend buy and mail you the H.I. books
> you want to read.
>
> I don't have any. I pitched them out! Anyhow,
> those EK H.I. books are highly overrated! Really!
> There's nothing of a "spiritual" nature, or of a
> "higher" consciousness found in any of the EK
> books, especially, those coming from Klemp!
>
> IMO- There are books everywhere that will help
> a person up to a certain point, (with pieces to
> their puzzle), but eventually comes the time when
> one writes/lives their own "inner" book of wisdom.
>
> Back to the topic-
> You might want to read the various H.I. Letter
> excerpts, here, in the archives. These will give
> you an overview of Klemp's consciousness, and
> of his mindset that carry over to the H.I. Books.
>
> Although, reading about HK's past USAF experience
> and his ego driven spin of his fantastic ping-pong
> matches and his judgmental remarks would do this
> as well! It's true that HK wasn't the LEM when those
> events happened, but he WAS when he wrote about
> those matches and his thoughts in his Autobiography.
> It should be pointed out that Klemp never apologizes
> for his past (youthful) arrogance or of his negative
> judgments and opinions of others!
>
> Anyway, at one time I too was curious and thought
> that there were untold Jewels of Wisdom within the
> pages of those H.I. Books! There wasn't! This is EK
> brain-washing! People tend to want what they can't
> have.
>
> Actually, I was given permission and told that I could
> read all of the H.I. Books available "before" I became
> an H.I., and was loaned all of them to read! It was
> disappointing for a spiritual seeker, but interesting
> for one needing to climb the initiation ladder.
>
> Anyway, I really don't know how else one would
> go about this quest, unless, former H.I.s are selling
> these H.I. books on Ebay.
>
> If you want to read some regional chela pages
> or print off the latest H.I. Guidelines then I'll
> repost those current "user names" and "passwords"
> for you.
>
> The H.I. Guidelines (H.I.G.) are updated from time-
> to-time, whereas, some H.I. Books are of an older
> "Twitchell" philosophy and past consciousness. The
> H.I.G. are by Klemp and Company and give more details
> and specifics (concerning leadership methods and
> behaviour) than the H.I. books do.
>
> The H.I. Leadership books are mainly used to brainwash
> (inspire) via leadership/group philosophy. The Guidelines
> use specific "field-tested" and "approved" techniques.
>
> Prometheus
>
> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ****
> This is for ECKANKAR.org MEMBERS ONLY Site Entry:
>
> [From June 2008 The Mystic World]
>
> user name-june2008
> password-eck
>
> ***For H.I. Only Info:
>
> [From The H.I. Letter]
>
> user name-june2008
> password-corner
>
> BTW- This is The Year of BLESSING
> ************ ********* ********* ********* *********

> 1a. women as eckmasters ...now??
>     Posted by: "Leanne Thompson"
> le_anne_thompson@... le_anne_thompson
>     Date: Thu Jul 3, 2008 5:58 pm ((PDT))
>
>
> I read somewhere that there couldn't be any women eck
> masters (something to do with energies. I think ego.)

I've tried to find the quote, which was posted on a.r.e. years ago.  It's in
either "Dialogues with the Master" or "Spiritual Notebook".  Basically, it said
that women couldn't "connect" directly with God/Spirit/Whatever, because men
were the "spiritual battery" or something ridiculous like that.

Back in the 80's I was trying to recruit a very intelligent neighbor, who
unfortunately was also very polite.   He read the book and pointed out this
particular passage, asked me didn't I find it offensive?

I was just working really hard at accepting *everything*.



  ANd
> now they are comming up with kata daki.

Twitch invented Kata Daki.  Some years ago another former member pointed out
that many eckists don't really bother reading the cult's books.  Someone pointed
out that "Kata Daki" is a variation of "Kay-Dee", the pseudo Twitch used for his
sister.

I daresay if Twitch's big sister were alive back then, she'd have kicked her
bratty little brother's wayward lying butt and let everyone know the truth about
him.


> And Joan Klemps
> role(maybe they roll in bed). Funny how they are changing
> their tune now.

Did you know that Klemp & Joanie were having a flagrant open affair while he was
still married to Marge?  Did you read Klemp's "reason" for the divorce - that
Marge couldn't handle his masterly power flows?  Odd, isn't it, that Klemp is
supposed to "balance" all the chelas but couldn't help his wife, for the sake of
his family?  Do you know that both Joan & Marge received initiations together at
a seminar which I believe was held in the 90's?  This was announced in one of
the Mystic Worlds.  Did you know that in the early writings, Twitch said
initiation levels were supposed to be kept secret?  I noticed that contradiction
very early in my membership - members' initiation levels are published openly
and discussed freely?

Amazing how Klemp turned a sleazy office affair into something "spirichul",
isn't it?  Bigwig cult attorney Doug Kunin dumped his wife & kids for one of the
office girls, too.   So much for Maybury's Laws!!   Perhaps they don't apply to
marriage vows.


  Whatever happened to Grahm ???? who was
> kicked out and ford johnson had him write his experiences
> in a book?
>

Graham told his side of the story at ET a few years back.  It's in the "Higher
Con" folder in the "files" section: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/files

Hope everyone's enjoying the holiday weekend!

Hugs,

Sharon

PS - Etznab, I've never seen a date published for Twitch & Gail's marriage.

"She is dependent upon him for the power of God which flows
through him. He has been given a chemical battery which has the
ability to draw the power directly to himself, which woman lacks, but
can take from man himself."  The Tiger's Fang, Page 90, first edition
by Lancer Books


My copy's in storage.  I'd be interested in reading the rest of this
paragraph.

Hi, Sharon!

Thanks for finding Twitchell's quote. It's interesting, isn't it,
how Klemp has changed a lot of what Twitchell established,
but I dare say that Twitchell would have kept changing things
around as well if he had lived longer.

Also, interesting how women accepted that male battery concept
but that was back in the 60s when many women would still be
encouraged or expected to be just little housewives! LOL!

If eckankar had been established in the 80s, it might have been
a different tune for women . . . eckankar is not an ancient religion!

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" <brighttigress@...>
wrote:
>
>
> "She is dependent upon him for the power of God which flows
> through him. He has been given a chemical battery which has the
> ability to draw the power directly to himself, which woman lacks, but
> can take from man himself."  The Tiger's Fang, Page 90, first edition
> by Lancer Books
>
>
> My copy's in storage.  I'd be interested in reading the rest of this
> paragraph.
>

The years 1963-1964, I believe,
were important historical years for
what later would become known as the
teachings of "Eckankar", IMO. One of
the reasons for researching the date
of marriage is simply to clarify the
information I already have.

    For some reason I have the 7th of
January, 1964 recorded for the date
of marriage between Paul & Gail, but
I don't remember the source of that
information and / or how reliable it
is.

    Something recorded in the book In
My Soul I Am Free kinda made me want
to double check the January 1964 date.
It was this:

"I went to San Francisco in late
November of '64 and left her in
Seattle. Then I couldn't stand it
there without her, so I drove back
to her home near South Bend, Washing-
ton, and married her."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by
Brad Steiger, p. 66]

    Paul reportedly mentioned someplce
in his writings that he wouldn't marry
Gail until she was 21. Actually it may
have been mentioned in the same IMSIAF
paragraph, of which I only quoted part.
(And, not more than a couple of pages
earlier he mentioned they were married
in 64'. Along with something about
Rebazar Tarzs showing up thereafter.)

    According to a post here on 05/17/07
Gail was born July 17th, 1942 - if my
records are correct (I hope they are).
That would mean she turned 21 on July,
17, 1963. [I'm not absolutely certain
on this.]

    I wonder if the late November 1964
date (quoted earlier) should have read
1963, but I'm just rather confused at
this point, given the information that
I've seen.

    If they didn't get married until
November 1964 (or after), it would mean
they waited until over a year later to
finally getting married.

    Can't be certain on credibility for
any of the dates I've just given, as all
are pretty much second-hand information
at the least. This is why I'm searching
to get better clarification.

Etznab

It was message number 2590 that
gave a date of birth for Gail.

Etznab

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "D.R.D."
<etznab@...> wrote:
>
>    It was message number 2590 that
> gave a date of birth for Gail.
>
> Etznab
>

    On the same thread, message 2596
mentioned something about a marriage
license taken out in January 1964.

    Can someone clarify this? Was the
license taken out in January, but the
marriage happened later?

Etznab

Hi Etznab and All,
The first LINK on this site's LINK page
has most of the information you are
seeking... "A" Plus- Early Twitch &
Eckankar History.

BTW- Paul Twitchell's first name was
the same as his father's... JACOB and
Not John! When Ford Johnson put this
info on his Truth-Seeker site he made
some mistakes in the titles, but if you
look at all of the documents you will,
eventually, see the correct information.
And, it's very likely that Paul used John
versus Jacob. Paul would only use the
first letter "J" on some legal documents.

On the marriage certificate for Paul &
Gail it states that her birthdate is July
18, 1942. Paul gave Oct. 22, 1922 as
his birthdate when it was probably
Oct. 22, 1909. This marriage certificate
was issued on Jan. 15, 1964 and they
were married on Jan. 17, 1964.

Thus, Paul was still lying just before he
created Eckankar and while he was supposedly
meeting with Rebazar. Remember that Klemp
states on Eckankar.org that Paul was "exaggerating
and twisting facts" (lying) in 1935 in order
to get into Who's Who in Kentucky. It should
be noted too that Twitchell wrote "exaggerated"
articles for "Ripley's Believe it or Not" close
to the time that he and Gail created Eckankar.

Also, their marriage certificate info points out
that Gail had turned 21 on July 18, 1963,
therefore, their marriage took place 6 months
AFTER her 21st birthday!

I also found the death certificate for Katherine
(Kay-Dee, i.e. Kata Daki) Twitchell Iverlet. This
is Paul's sister that he wrote about teaching him
how to Soul Travel. She died on Mar. 11, 1959
and was buried on Mar. 13, 1959. The death
certificate was recorded on Mar. 17, 1959.
She died in Paducah, KY and had been under
treatment since Nov. 12, 1958.

BTW- Remember, too, that Brad Steiger has
stated that he only reported what Twitchell
told him. Steiger never verified anything
including dates.

Prometheus

etznab wrote:
> >
It was message number 2590 that
gave a date of birth for Gail.
> >
Etznab
> >
>
     On the same thread, message 2596
mentioned something about a marriage
license taken out in January 1964.
>
     Can someone clarify this? Was the
license taken out in January, but the
marriage happened later?
>
The years 1963-1964, I believe,
were important historical years for
what later would become known as the
teachings of "Eckankar", IMO. One of
the reasons for researching the date
of marriage is simply to clarify the
information I already have.

For some reason I have the 7th of
January, 1964 recorded for the date
of marriage between Paul & Gail, but
I don't remember the source of that
information and / or how reliable it
is.

Something recorded in the book In
My Soul I Am Free kinda made me want
to double check the January 1964 date.
It was this:

"I went to San Francisco in late
November of '64 and left her in
Seattle. Then I couldn't stand it
there without her, so I drove back
to her home near South Bend, Washing-
ton, and married her."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by
Brad Steiger, p. 66]

Paul reportedly mentioned someplce
in his writings that he wouldn't marry
Gail until she was 21. Actually it may
have been mentioned in the same IMSIAF
paragraph, of which I only quoted part.
(And, not more than a couple of pages
earlier he mentioned they were married
in 64'. Along with something about
Rebazar Tarzs showing up thereafter.)

According to a post here on 05/17/07
Gail was born July 17th, 1942 - if my
records are correct (I hope they are).
That would mean she turned 21 on July,
17, 1963. [I'm not absolutely certain
on this.]

I wonder if the late November 1964
date (quoted earlier) should have read
1963, but I'm just rather confused at
this point, given the information that
I've seen.

If they didn't get married until
November 1964 (or after), it would mean
they waited until over a year later to
finally getting married.

Can't be certain on credibility for
any of the dates I've just given, as all
are pretty much second-hand information
at the least. This is why I'm searching
to get better clarification.

Etznab

Thanks for sharing that history.
I had the January 17th date for the
marriage certificate and the 7th for
the date when they were married (so
the need to clarify, because what I
had didn't look right).

    I'll have to check out that link.
It will be very helpful - and to keep
these dates in mind when reading over
the Letters to Gail, the Wisdom Notes
and other events from that time frame.

    Much thanks for the help.

Etznab

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Etznab and All,
> The first LINK on this site's LINK page
> has most of the information you are
> seeking... "A" Plus- Early Twitch &
> Eckankar History.
>
> BTW- Paul Twitchell's first name was
> the same as his father's... JACOB and
> Not John! When Ford Johnson put this
> info on his Truth-Seeker site he made
> some mistakes in the titles, but if you
> look at all of the documents you will,
> eventually, see the correct information.
> And, it's very likely that Paul used John
> versus Jacob. Paul would only use the
> first letter "J" on some legal documents.
>
> On the marriage certificate for Paul &
> Gail it states that her birthdate is July
> 18, 1942. Paul gave Oct. 22, 1922 as
> his birthdate when it was probably
> Oct. 22, 1909. This marriage certificate
> was issued on Jan. 15, 1964 and they
> were married on Jan. 17, 1964.
>
> Thus, Paul was still lying just before he
> created Eckankar and while he was supposedly
> meeting with Rebazar. Remember that Klemp
> states on Eckankar.org that Paul was "exaggerating
> and twisting facts" (lying) in 1935 in order
> to get into Who's Who in Kentucky. It should
> be noted too that Twitchell wrote "exaggerated"
> articles for "Ripley's Believe it or Not" close
> to the time that he and Gail created Eckankar.
>
> Also, their marriage certificate info points out
> that Gail had turned 21 on July 18, 1963,
> therefore, their marriage took place 6 months
> AFTER her 21st birthday!
>
> I also found the death certificate for Katherine
> (Kay-Dee, i.e. Kata Daki) Twitchell Iverlet. This
> is Paul's sister that he wrote about teaching him
> how to Soul Travel. She died on Mar. 11, 1959
> and was buried on Mar. 13, 1959. The death
> certificate was recorded on Mar. 17, 1959.
> She died in Paducah, KY and had been under
> treatment since Nov. 12, 1958.
>
> BTW- Remember, too, that Brad Steiger has
> stated that he only reported what Twitchell
> told him. Steiger never verified anything
> including dates.
>
> Prometheus
>
> etznab wrote:
> > >
> It was message number 2590 that
> gave a date of birth for Gail.
> > >
> Etznab
> > >
> >
>     On the same thread, message 2596
> mentioned something about a marriage
> license taken out in January 1964.
> >
>     Can someone clarify this? Was the
> license taken out in January, but the
> marriage happened later?
> >
> The years 1963-1964, I believe,
> were important historical years for
> what later would become known as the
> teachings of "Eckankar", IMO. One of
> the reasons for researching the date
> of marriage is simply to clarify the
> information I already have.
>
> For some reason I have the 7th of
> January, 1964 recorded for the date
> of marriage between Paul & Gail, but
> I don't remember the source of that
> information and / or how reliable it
> is.
>
> Something recorded in the book In
> My Soul I Am Free kinda made me want
> to double check the January 1964 date.
> It was this:
>
> "I went to San Francisco in late
> November of '64 and left her in
> Seattle. Then I couldn't stand it
> there without her, so I drove back
> to her home near South Bend, Washing-
> ton, and married her."
>
> [Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by
> Brad Steiger, p. 66]
>
> Paul reportedly mentioned someplce
> in his writings that he wouldn't marry
> Gail until she was 21. Actually it may
> have been mentioned in the same IMSIAF
> paragraph, of which I only quoted part.
> (And, not more than a couple of pages
> earlier he mentioned they were married
> in 64'. Along with something about
> Rebazar Tarzs showing up thereafter.)
>
> According to a post here on 05/17/07
> Gail was born July 17th, 1942 - if my
> records are correct (I hope they are).
> That would mean she turned 21 on July,
> 17, 1963. [I'm not absolutely certain
> on this.]
>
> I wonder if the late November 1964
> date (quoted earlier) should have read
> 1963, but I'm just rather confused at
> this point, given the information that
> I've seen.
>
> If they didn't get married until
> November 1964 (or after), it would mean
> they waited until over a year later to
> finally getting married.
>
> Can't be certain on credibility for
> any of the dates I've just given, as all
> are pretty much second-hand information
> at the least. This is why I'm searching
> to get better clarification.
>
> Etznab
>

"Kirpal Singh who is still at
his own ashram in India, has
the ability to appear to his
own people, in his Nuri Sarup
body, no matter where they may
be. A skill which almost anybody
can learn who gets the knack of
bilocation. Among my numerous
discourses from many gurus in
the flesh and those on the inner
planes, are those taken down when
Kirpal Singh appeared in my apart-
ment in Washington, D.C., in his
light body, although his flesh
self was six-thousand miles away
in India."

(The revised article, with name
replacements, reads):

"Sudar Singh, who lived in his
ashram in India, had the ability
to appear to his own people in
his Atma Sarup body, no matter
where they might be. A skill
almost anyone can learn who gets
the knack of Soul Travel. . .
Among my numerous discourses from
many gurus in the flesh and those
on the inner planes, are taken
down when Sudar Singh appeared in
my apartment in New York City, in
his light body, although his flesh
self was six thousand miles away
in India."

[Based on: http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html]

"Sudar Singh appeared in my
apartment in New York City in
his light body, although his
flesh self was six thousand
miles away in India."

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled
Writings Volume 1, Paul Twitchell
(Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross),
p. 12]

"DIALOGUES WITH THE MASTER are a
series of spiritual discourses
which were taken down when Rebazar
Tarzs, the ageless emissary for
ECKANKAR in the world today, app-
eared to me nightly in his light
body for practically one year and
dictated them.
    "This occurred while living in
the nation's capital. [....] He
concluded his series of talks that
year by taking me on the spiritual
journey recorded in my book 'The
Tiger's Fang.' [....]"

[Based on: Introduction, p. 7,
Dialogues with the Master, Eighth
Printing - 1983]

"While Paul Twitchell was undergoing
the transition from Cliff-Hanger to
spiritual adept, the Tibetan master
of Eckankar, Rebazar Tarzs, appeared
in the soul body to administer a
series of lessons to Paulji in his
home in Seattle, Washington."

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, by
Brad Steiger, p. 62]

"[....] Since this first meeting
[summer 1951?] with Rebazar Tarzs
it has been proved many times over,
especially when he appeared nightly
[Rebazar Tarzs] for a period to
dictate a full manuscript called
'The Far Country', a whole discourse
on ECKANKAR, in my apartment in San
Francisco [Summer? Fall? 1964] while
his body was lying on a crude bed in
a hut high in the Hindu Kush mountains.
[....]" [my brackets]

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings
Volume 1, Paul   Twitchell - Copyright
1975 by Gail T. Gross, p. 35]

"Also among my writings are numerous
discourses from many master [sic], in
the flesh and those on the inner planes.
I have talked with and taken down the
words of Kirpal Singh who appeared in
my apartment in his Nari Raup, his light
body, although his physical body was six
thousand miles away in India."

[January 1964 issue of Orion Magazine]

"We were married in 1964 in San Fran-
cisco, and shortly afterwards Rebazar
Tarzs began to appear and give me
intensive instructions. He had been
appearing regularly in the latter
fifties, but he said that those sessions
had only been designed to prepare me for
the exhaustive drills which now faced me.
I was told to move south, to choose San
Diego for our home. [....]"

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, pp.
64-65]

" 'I went to San Francisco in late
November of '64 and left her [Gail]
in Seattle. Then I couldn't stand it
there without her, so I drove back
to her home near South Bend, Washing-
ton, and married her.
    "The first year was rough, but we
made it. She worked and I wrote dis-
courses on Eckankar. The next year
we moved from San Francisco to San
Diego, where Gail went to work in a
small city library. Gail now believed
that it was time for me to bring out
ECK, just as the ECK masters had been
telling me. I had promised Gail that
she might go back to college and
complete her education when I went
to ECK full-time, so she is a student
once again.' "

[Based on: IN MY SOUL I AM FREE, p.
66]

*********

    Looking at the foregoing trivia,
considering that Paul Twitchell was
initiated by Kirpal Singh in 1955, on
his first trip to the U.S., that Gail
was initiated in 1963? on his second,
that a lot of what Rebazar Tarzs said
is similar (if not identical word for
word) to what Julian Johnson mentioned
in The Path of the Masters, I find it
challenging (to say the least) trying
to establish a credible timeline for
Rebazar Tarzs.

    That is one of the reasons for
my decision to locate the first time
that the name Rebazar Tarzs appeared
in print.

    BTW, Paul Twitchell was not the
only person to have claimed Masters
from the East appeared to them, or
gave them information to write in a
book, etc.

"Yogananda spent 10 years with his
guru before Babaji himself appeared
to him, and directed him to bring
the sacred science of Kriya to the
West. Yogananda fulfilled this sacred
mission from 1920 to 1952, when he
left his body and attained the yogic
state of mahasamadhi. [....] Since
that time, Babaji has continued to
guide and inspire some of history`s
greatest saints and many spiritual
teachers, in the fulfillment of their
mission. These include Adi Shankara-
charya, the great 9th century A.D.
reformer of Hinduism, and Kabir, the
15th century saint beloved by both
the Hindus and Muslims. Both are said
to have been personally initiated by
Babaji, and refer to him in their
writings. [....]" [Kabir? Really?]

[Based on: http://www.babaji.ca/NewSite/babaji.htm]
- [T.D. - 01/07/07]

    In Theosophy I believe there was
a "Tibetan", or some Master from the
East mentioned by that group as well.
There are probaly a number of others
(other paths / teachings) too - which
claim guidance by ancient Masters and
Avatars, etc. Only problem is - would
seem to me - is locating a credible
history for any of them! Something
besides the imagination of those who
claim to have received them?

    And that's just it. Are these all
real appearances? or just appearances
in the minds and imaginations of so
many believers? I don't know, but it's
something I would like to prove one
way or the other. Following the path
of other people's imaginations, that
is not always the best course to take,
IMHO. Sometimes, but not always. Like
when imagination gets taken literally
and interpreted as world history.

Etznab

Hello All,
This is just one item from:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gemsq.htm#Daily
>
BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity
which is the true opposite to the Passion of Lust! This is
why it's so hard to remember the EK version (substitute)
for this virture. And, notice that neither PT or Klemp promote
the Vegan life style!
>
These are questions posed to Sri Kirpal Singh by his chelas.
Notice his straightforward answers! Klemp could never have
this kind of live Dialogues with the Master because HK's too
ego sensitive and because Klemp's of a much lower caliper of
Master than Kirpal was! I'd say Klemp is on the same level as
a country preacher! Does this stuff sound like Eckankar dogma
and what Twit wrote? You decide!
>
Remember too that Twitchell was in contact with Kirpal in
1966 concerning PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript. Klemp
has confirmed this fact on Eckankar.org. Kirpal even talks of
Twitchell here, but doesn't mention him by name.
>
#################################################
WHO ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
Evening Darshan, September 11, 1970
from "The Light of Kirpal"
>
[Questioner]: Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe after
several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer. I've got to
eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've got to forget
about keeping the diary," and then they take off and go someplace else?
>
[Master]: The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry for
something higher. They want only this life, not the other life. That's all.
They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover, they did
not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute. Sometimes
it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't keep their diaries.
That is why all these things come up. Remember, that is why such-like
people never remain in contact.
>
[Q]: Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from
family members, that satsangis give in.
>
[M]: I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did
not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you
but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses, you
know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered, it
should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse
anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things
you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you
poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These
are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact
with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now
the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy
inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has
to be done regularly.
>
[Q]: So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial
discipline that's required.
>
[M]: That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days,
demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large.
Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what
He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now
the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something
is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by regular
devotion of time.
>
[Q]: There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who
will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests.
In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?
>
[M]: More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up
for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth
corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you
stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave
the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should
be fed now and prepare?
>
[Q]: But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves
into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch
of nothingness that's going to assail them.
>
[M]: That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they
will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy
is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in
the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body,
there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As
a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have
come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here.
You will come very confidently.
>
[Q]: There's a great feeling of peace here.
>
[M]: Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within
you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we
have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?
>
[Q]: So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through?
It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.
>
[M]: What do these people want? They get some demonstration
of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they
get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote
hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't
get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their
candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is
you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where
do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital
questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu
scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels
the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.
>
[Q]: I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports
that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.
>
[M]: I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts
  - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel
around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it,
he grovels around the world.
>
[Q]: I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was
about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.
>
[M]: I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has
not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be
of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the
end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various
cases you'll find.
>
[Q]: So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted
her life in that direction?
>
[M]: Yes.
>
[Q]: Then there are the reports of people who have made some of
these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's
no pain leaving the body.
>
[M]: When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the
body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and
going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a
cooler place, then?
>
[Q]: In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't there?
>
[M]: No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all,
there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have
got something which we are now earning.
>
[Q]: Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say,
a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through
a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he
doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.
>
[M]: Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near
the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man
there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him.
So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room
was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very
much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain
himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium)
"The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see?
It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark
room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black
marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people
have lost faith in this work.
>
[Q]: Too much fakery and commercialism?

******Here Kirpal talks of Twitchell******

[M]: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was
initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting.
Then he  wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside."
That Form used to  speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that
dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963.
Then later on he  started a new religion.
>
[Q]: Yes. I've heard of him.
>
[M]: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That
is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing,
and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda.
He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955.
Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very
difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection.
This is a living example. I need not mention his name.
>
[Q]: I don't think he mentions Your name either.
>
[M]: I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone.
If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated
by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where
he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So
such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters,
gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black
marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black
marketing inside.
>
[Q]: Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here
at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue
forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the
world?
>
[M]: I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet.
There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the
busiest of times, I've not planned first.
>
[Q]: The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible
for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point
three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?
>
[M]: What do you mean?
>
[Q]: Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of
Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any
order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say,
"Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and
you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?
>
[M]: In one's own case or in the case of others?
>
[Q]: In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.
>
[M]: I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best
He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your
Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind
up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams,
and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible.
Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through,
but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate,
he'll find many changes in his life. His life history according to
astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the
starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those
planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed.
Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed,
some things are minimized.
>
[Q]: You would not advise people to pay too much attention to
astrology then?
>
[M]: Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut
down, eliminated.
>
[Q]: Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?
>
[M]: By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect,
some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody
of Someone Who goes higher than that.
>
[Q]: Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to
this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there
something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes
for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?
>
[M]: The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that.
Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned
by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to
the mountains, to the wilderness.
>
[Q]: Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken
up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow
down." He said, "Get thee behind me."
>
[M]: Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others, too.
>
[Q]: This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the inner
planes?
>
[M]: Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative
Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see
trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to
do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not
good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this
place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."
>
[Q]: Is the Negative Power an actual person?
>
[M]: No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power
that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is
called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.
>
[Q]: But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the
form of something that might took like a person to us?
>
[M]: Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no
special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest
judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out
of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his
control.
>
[Q]: How much will he fight to keep that from happening?
>
[M]: He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my man is
gone."
>
[Q]: He does not lose very many, does he?
>
[M]: Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many, you can say.
>
[Q]: Hopefully he'll lose us?
>
[M]: Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who got out of
his power.
>
[Q]: Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat Purush
that he
couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?
>
[M]: That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been
given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is
a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing
authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy.
But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never
says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order
you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him
from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors.
They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he
won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court
martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to
the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the
condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;"
he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars:
Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one.
They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous
and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't
punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their
work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back
to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might
come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate
the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does
not let the population grow less.
>
[Q]: Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring back to Sat
Purush?
>
[M]: A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to do. The Power
is the
same, but Their functions are different. Each has His own duty; He does it and
goes
Home.
>
[Q]: That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that
a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved.
Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?
>
[M]: How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each
Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember?
"As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
>
[Q]: I think that may have been lost in translation in some
editions of the Bible, though.
>
[M]: No. It still stands.
>
[Q]: Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"
>
[M]: Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't
know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John,
I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's
true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee
till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody,
He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach
the true Home of the Father.
>
[Q]: "Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?
>
[M]: That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.
>
[Q]: While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You
recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who
came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?"
Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast
and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing
for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said,
'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye
than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?
>
[M]: It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much to worldly things,
how
can they go back to God? They won't even want to hear about leaving this world.
When
they leave it, they will be hovering around the world.
>
[Q]: Is it possible to have possessions of this world without being attached to
them?
>
[M]: Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one,
not many. You go where you are attached. What is your
ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for
the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given
up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go -
it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather
than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think
of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given
up to all attachments leave?
>
[Q]: But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait
for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait
for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality
and let the income maintain you.
>
[M]: This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails?
Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went
last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to
get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with
the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was
burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not
go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body;
maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep
tonight and never rise.
>
[Q]: Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give
away everything they have and come and follow You?
>
[M]: I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings.
Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the
flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one
thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again.
Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God.
Further, man should live not for his own self but for others.
Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns
to save their children. If man does the same, where's his superiority?
Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he
has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles;
they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.
>
[Q]: We haven't been doing very well by them.
>
[M]: That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family
should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's
not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we
love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you
have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you
see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they
use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi,
a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some
two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front
of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The
talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an
hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They
said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone.
We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children.
It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful
except when tormented by the hand of man.
>
[Q]: And man will have to pay for this?
>
[M]: Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally
in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes
a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.
>
[Q]: Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might
be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?
>
[M]: May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those
who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money.
I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that
lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out
that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have
a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.
>
[Q]: In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly
certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become
a man than to see God.
>
[M]: It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man.
So it should be: man first, and then Him.
>
[Q]: Well, I think if you see God you would automatically
have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.
>
[M]: You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man
is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make
a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not
done in one day.
>
[Q]: But if you see God, what do you care about becoming
a perfect man? Why do you care?
>
[M]: You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something
else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the
sun, then?
>
[Q]: But only the perfect man can continue to see God?
>
[M]: Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right.
That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness:
right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this
diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside,
not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the
first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These
two things are required.
>
[Q]: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from
coming that seems so inevitable?
>
[M]: Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him.
That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something
but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the
governments really want peace, they should have an
attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries
so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want
to come over there. Each government should make their
country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and
enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming
state. That should be the attitude.
>
[Q]: You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight.
Can't You offer us any hope?
>
[M]: I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be
saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of
affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong
down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak
of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's
trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required.
This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out
to give right understanding to the government and wake
up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that
much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good
side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now
the trend is to unite all nations.
>
{END]

Here's more Kirpal information for ECKists to research!
Get out your EK Lexicons to look up the definitions!

SPIRITUAL ELIXIR...

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/elixir.htm


prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> This is just one item from:
> http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gemsq.htm#Daily
> >
> BTW: Notice that Twitchell changed the Virtue of Chastity
> which is the true opposite to the Passion of Lust! This is
> why it's so hard to remember the EK version (substitute)
> for this virture. And, notice that neither PT or Klemp promote
> the Vegan life style! And, Kirpal promotes keeping a Diary!
> >
> These are questions posed to Sri Kirpal Singh by his chelas.
> Notice his straightforward answers! Klemp could never have
> this kind of live Dialogues with the Master because HK's too
> ego sensitive and because Klemp's of a much lower caliper of
> Master than Kirpal was! I'd say Klemp is on the same level as
> a country preacher! Does this stuff sound like Eckankar dogma
> and what Twit wrote? You decide!
> >
> Remember too that Twitchell was in contact with Kirpal in
> 1966 concerning PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript. Klemp
> has confirmed this fact on Eckankar.org. Kirpal even talks of
> Twitchell here, but doesn't mention him by name.
> >
> #################################################
> WHO ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU? WHERE ARE YOU GOING?
> Evening Darshan, September 11, 1970
> from "The Light of Kirpal"
> >
> [Questioner]: Do some of your initiates get to the stage, maybe
> after several years, when they say, "I can't stand this any longer.
> I've got to eat meat. I've got to violate the chastity regulation. I've
> got to forget about keeping the diary," and then they take off and
> go someplace else?
> >
> [Master]: The point is, if this happens, they are not really hungry
> for something higher. They want only this life, not the other life.
> That's all. They had something; they did not live up to it and, moreover,
> they did not taste the sweet elixir of being in contact with the Absolute.
> Sometimes it's because of society. Sometimes it's because they don't
> keep their diaries. That is why all these things come up. Remember,
> that is why such-like people never remain in contact.
> >
> [Q]: Sometimes I would imagine there is such terrible pressure from
> family members, that satsangis give in.
> >
> [M]: I tell you. I was born in a family of meat-eaters. As a child, I did
> not partake of it. Nobody can force you. One may refuse. I can love you
> but it is not necessary to eat what you eat. These are limited excuses,
> you know. Somebody came to India who said, "When any food is offered,
> it should not be refused - in the Bible it says so." So he cannot refuse
> anybody's offer of anything? They have a right to poison you? Good things
> you may accept. Otherwise politely you say, "No." If somebody offers you
> poison, would you accept it? It's really not poison, but it affects you. These
> are only lame excuses for not refusing. If you live for some time in contact
> with higher spirituality, then naturally the mind comes under control. Now
> the mind does not want to give up outer enjoyments. When you enjoy
> inner bliss, how can you return? In the beginning at least something has
> to be done regularly.
> >
> [Q]: So it's a matter, I suppose, of not wishing to submit to the initial
> discipline that's required.
> >
> [M]: That is what is strictly required, I tell you. In the old days,
> demonstrations of these gifts were never given to people at large.
> Only those who lived at the Master's feet for years, lived up to what
> He wanted, only when they were ready, were given something. Now
> the times have changed. Who can live with Master for years? So something
> is given and they are asked to maintain it by self-introspection, by
> regular devotion of time.
> >
> [Q]: There are many, many people, of course mostly young men, who
> will spend hours training and preparing themselves for athletic contests.
> In a sense, this is a similar kind of training, isn't it?
> >
> [M]: More lucrative. Such-like profit which will never be lost. "Lay up
> for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth
> corrupt." The main thing is, we have to leave the body. How do you
> stand? What's your fate? Two things happen at death: you are to leave
> the body, and you must know where to go. Is it not proper that we should
> be fed now and prepare?
> >
> [Q]: But so many people these days seem to have talked themselves
> into the idea that there is no further fate, that there's just a bunch
> of nothingness that's going to assail them.
> >
> [M]: That's all right. When sulphuric acid is put on copper filings, they
> will bubble out and disappear. There's no consciousness there. Energy
> is there, of course. A train is run by an engine. No consciousness is in
> the engine. You are a man, you are conscious. But after leaving the body,
> there is a very important question - we should know what is what. As
> a man we can do this, and in no other form of creation. Now you have
> come here. You have seen this place. You have got some guide here.
> You will come very confidently.
> >
> [Q]: There's a great feeling of peace here.
> >
> [M]: Yes, yet there's more peace There. All glory and beauty lie within
> you. Now you don't want to leave these outward enjoyments. Once we
> have some little experience of that inner bliss, we won't leave it, you see?
> >
> [Q]: So it's keeping in training until that experience comes through?
> It may be keeping in training for fifteen years.
> >
> [M]: What do these people want? They get some demonstration
> of it. What is that? It may not be a lot. It is just a start, but they
> get some demonstration. It is a special gift. Others who devote
> hours and hours and hours to the outward performances don't
> get anything. They pray, they cry, they sit down, and have their
> candle before them; it is all darkness within. The main thing is
> you have to leave the body. Who are you? Where are you? Where
> do you go? How does this body work? I think these are very vital
> questions, most vital, which concern our own self. The Hindu
> scriptures tell us that when the soul leaves the body, one feels
> the pain as if bitten by a thousand scorpions.
> >
> [Q]: I notice that it says that, and yet there are some reports
> that many people die peacefully, apparently without pain.
> >
> [M]: I tell you that may be from heart failure; if all their thoughts
>  - desires - remain unfulfilled, they go on circling; their souls grovel
> around the earth. If a soul leaving the body at the time of death still
> wants something or is attached to somebody but cannot have it,
> he grovels around the world.
> >
> [Q]: I know one relative, for example, who said just as she was
> about to die, "I see Jesus here." And apparently she died in peace.
> >
> [M]: I tell you, that's due to a reaction of the past; but every man has
> not the same story behind him. She might be devoted to Jesus and be
> of good character. But at that time, when past actions are so near, the
> end comes only as a result of the whole life's essence. There are various
> cases you'll find.
> >
> [Q]: So conceivably she wasn't in so much pain because she had devoted
> her life in that direction?
> >
> [M]: Yes.
> >
> [Q]: Then there are the reports of people who have made some of
> these astral trips and they say when they go into the astral there's
> no pain leaving the body.
> >
> [M]: When they have learnt to leave that body, not before. To leave the
> body is the first question. When you are in the habit of coming and
> going daily, death is no bugbear. If you're coming from a hotter to a
> cooler place, then?
> >
> [Q]: In other words, if you've learned how to do it, then the pain isn't
there?
> >
> [M]: No. And further, we should know where we are going. After all,
> there are worlds beyond. Because of our backgrounds too, we have
> got something which we are now earning.
> >
> [Q]: Well, the departure at death is a different departure than, say,
> a departure for an astral flight. The departure at death goes through
> a different door with Kal waiting there to gobble you up, whereas he
> doesn't wait to gobble you up when you go out for an astral flight.
> >
> [M]: Astral flight - that's just hovering around the world. Quite near
> the earth, not beyond. I went to London. There was a famous man
> there. He charged five pounds to have astral people talk through him.
> So some friends of mine said, "Let us go and see." The whole room
> was dark, pitch dark. We sat down. Nothing happened. There was very
> much acting and posing going on. He'd speak like a child, and strain
> himself: (The Master imitates the fake trembly voice of the medium)
> "The atmosphere is not favorable tonight - I cannot come." You see?
> It was his own voice. A man can train himself to talk that way in a dark
> room. There's fraud outside; I'm afraid there's a hundred times more black
> marketing inside. Those people are acting and posing. That's why people
> have lost faith in this work.
> >
> [Q]: Too much fakery and commercialism?
>
> ******Here Kirpal talks of Twitchell******
>
> [M]: Yes, yes. Too much propaganda. I tell you, one American was
> initiated by me - I've got the initiation report in his own handwriting.
> Then he  wrote to me, "The Master's Form appears to me inside."
> That Form used to  speak to him, dictate to him, inside. And all that
> dictation was put into a book and the manuscript was sent to me in 1963.
> Then later on he  started a new religion.
> >
> [Q]: Yes. I've heard of him.
> >
> [M]: Later he sent me another letter, "Return my book." That
> is what such - like people will do. They had some little thing,
> and got stuck fast there. Now he's carrying on propaganda.
> He says he was never initiated by me. He was initiated in 1955.
> Some people get stuck fast on the way. This little ego is very
> difficult to get rid of unless there's some kind of protection.
> This is a living example. I need not mention his name.
> >
> [Q]: I don't think he mentions Your name either.
> >
> [M]: I don't think he would. I don't like to say things about anyone.
> If any man does well, all right. I returned the book. That was dictated
> by me, and that's all right. He changed that book before printing; where
> he mentioned my name, he changed it to another guru's name. So
> such is the fate of these people. People are fed up with these masters,
> gurus, and sadhus. Why? Only for this reason. I told you there is black
> marketing outside but hundreds and thousands times more black
> marketing inside.
> >
> [Q]: Do You ever feel at times that You would just like to stay here
> at Your home in the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains and not issue
> forth again to the hustle and the bustle of Delhi and other parts of the
> world?
> >
> [M]: I'm bound, you see. I am directed what to do. I am a mere puppet.
> There is no question of my will now. That's all I can say. Even in the
> busiest of times, I've not planned first.
> >
> [Q]: The karma of most people is already laid out. Is it possible
> for a Master, however, to say that, "All right, point one and point
> three of that karma will be interchanged. " Can He do that?
> >
> [M]: What do you mean?
> >
> [Q]: Well, I mean if we come down here with a certain amount of
> Pralabdh Karma that has to be paid off, is there necessarily any
> order that it has to follow in being paid off? Can a Master say,
> "Well, I'm going to hold back on this portion of your karma and
> you won't have to pay it off until you're sixty-seven years old?
> >
> [M]: In one's own case or in the case of others?
> >
> [Q]: In the case of others. In the case of His initiates.
> >
> [M]: I tell you, the Master is to wind up all reactions to the best
> He can. The initiate prays, "Oh God, I pray I should go to Your
> Home forever, that I should not return." So He's working to wind
> up all actions and reactions. Most of them are paid off in dreams,
> and like that their severity is polished down to the minimum possible.
> Whatever reactions cannot be set aside, you've got to pass through,
> but with a little help on the side. Generally in the life of an initiate,
> he'll find many changes in his life. His life history according to
> astrology does not stand true. Those who have transcended the
> starry skies are under the control of One Who goes beyond those
> planes; there astrology does not stand true - things are changed.
> Many things are omitted, sometimes some things are delayed,
> some things are minimized.
> >
> [Q]: You would not advise people to pay too much attention to
> astrology then?
> >
> [M]: Those things won't stand true always. Many things are cut
> down, eliminated.
> >
> [Q]: Is it at least a basis by which one can judge someone's character?
> >
> [M]: By face you mean, or by writing? After all, stars have some effect,
> some effect. I'm only speaking of the destiny of those under the custody
> of Someone Who goes higher than that.
> >
> [Q]: Actually, I suppose, I feel a little embarrassed at having sunk to
> this low subject when we were talking about higher matters. Is there
> something in this area here in the Himalaya Mountains that makes
> for better meditations? Or is it purely the presence of the Master?
> >
> [M]: The presence of the Master, of course, is of great help in that.
> Solitude also goes to help - any atmosphere which is not poisoned
> by the thoughts of worldly people. Even Christ used to run away to
> the mountains, to the wilderness.
> >
> [Q]: Let's see. When Christ was driven to the wilderness He was taken
> up on the mountain and told, "You can have all of this if You'll just bow
> down." He said, "Get thee behind me."
> >
> [M]: Yes, it also happened to Guru Nanak. It happened with others,
> too.
> >
> [Q]: This temptation then actually occurs at a certain place on the
> inner planes?
> >
> [M]: Yes, in meditation. I need not mention by the way, the Negative
> Power tells me all that is going on in the world; everywhere you see
> trouble nowadays. Why are there troubles? He says, "I am bound to
> do it. After all, this work has been given to me. Those who are not
> good, they must have punishment. So You remove (souls) from this
> place, but this I won't quit. My work has been allotted to me to carry on."
> >
> [Q]: Is the Negative Power an actual person?
> >
> [M]: No. That very Power is no personality question. Just the power
> that is going out is called Negative Power. What is going in, That is
> called the Christ Power, God Power, Master Power going into expression.
> >
> [Q]: But does the Negative Power on the inner planes ever take the
> form of something that might took like a person to us?
> >
> [M]: Yes, it materializes but it has no special form. There is no
> special form, of course. But he is a very honest judge, very honest
> judge. One thing, he won't let anybody go out of his control, out
> of his pale. He'll give everything to you, but not let you go out of his
> control.
> >
> [Q]: How much will he fight to keep that from happening?
> >
> [M]: He'll fight up to the third plane. Beyond that he'll cry, "Oh, my
> man is gone."
> >
> [Q]: He does not lose very many, does he?
> >
> [M]: Yes, of course, there are many, not innumerable, but many,
> you can say.
> >
> [Q]: Hopefully he'll lose us?
> >
> [M]: Yes, he'll cry. Not will cry, but he cried because of those who
> got out of his power.
> >
> [Q]: Was that story that's told about Kal a true one, that he told Sat
> Purush that he couldn't be happy up there and wanted his own realm?
> >
> [M]: That is a way of expression. After all, this power has been
> given by Whom? Suppose I give you now one example. There is
> a king. He appoints a commander-in-chief. He's the appointing
> authority. And he's also the appointing authority of a viceroy.
> But their functions are different. The commander-in-chief never
> says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." He says, "I order
> you." Because he fully knows that power has been given to him
> from the higher power. He has so many colonels and majors.
> They get a very handsome salary and many concessions but he
> won't let those go out of his control. He'll haul them up, court
> martial them. When the city is in trouble it is handed over to
> the military. It punishes some men and others are set to put the
> condition of the town in order. But the viceroy never says, "I say;"
> he says, "I convey to you the orders of the King." All these avatars:
> Lord Krishna, Rama, and others, their duty is a different one.
> They come to punish the wicked, help those who are righteous
> and set the world in order. Saints' ways are different. They don't
> punish anyone; They seek to bring them around, you see. Their
> work is just to give them contact with God and let them go back
> to the Father's Home, not to come back as a prisoner. They might
> come back as a teacher. That's the difference. They depopulate
> the world. The avatar, you see, keeps the world in order, does
> not let the population grow less.
> >
> [Q]: Does each Saint have a quota of souls that He is to bring
> back to Sat Purush?
> >
> [M]: A limited amount, of course. Each Saint has His own work to
> do. The Power is the same, but Their functions are different. Each
> has His own duty; He does it and goes Home.
> >
> [Q]: That figure that always comes up from the Bible is that
> a hundred and forty-four thousand are going to be saved.
> Presumably that was true around the year one A.D.?
> >
> [M]: How many? That's only for each Saint, you see. Each
> Saint has His day. What did Christ say? Do you remember?
> "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
> >
> [Q]: I think that may have been lost in translation in some
> editions of the Bible, though.
> >
> [M]: No. It still stands.
> >
> [Q]: Is it there, "As long as I am in the world?"
> >
> [M]: Yes. Strange enough the Christians themselves don't
> know the Bible. I'm not quoting from my own. Read St. John,
> I think it is the ninth chapter, verse five. Of course, that's
> true. Then He said, "I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee
> till the end of the world." Whom He took under His custody,
> He won't leave. He's responsible for initiates until they reach
> the true Home of the Father.
> >
> [Q]: "Till the end of the world," how should that be translated?
> >
> [M]: That means until that soul reaches the Father's Home.
> >
> [Q]: While we're talking about things out of the Bible, You
> recall the story, of course, about the rich young man who
> came to Jesus and said, "Lord, how can I be saved?"
> Jesus looked at him and said, "Give away all that thou hast
> and come follow me, "and the young man went away sorrowing
> for he had a lot of possessions and then Jesus turned and said,
> 'It's going to be easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye
> than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." Is that valid?
> >
> [M]: It means the same thing. Those who are attached so much
> to worldly things, how can they go back to God? They won't even
> want to hear about leaving this world. When they leave it, they will
> be hovering around the world.
> >
> [Q]: Is it possible to have possessions of this world without
> being attached to them?
> >
> [M]: Yes, surely. I think you can be attached to only one,
> not many. You go where you are attached. What is your
> ruling passion in life? If you have got a ruling passion for
> the world, you will come back. A man who is so much given
> up to the worldly things and enjoyments, naturally cannot go -
> it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle rather
> than for a rich man to get into Heaven. You are not to think
> of the body you are about to leave - how can one who is given
> up to all attachments leave?
> >
> [Q]: But it wouldn't be possible to just sit back and wait
> for an income to come in. I mean put it in a bank and wait
> for interest to come and then devote all your time to spirituality
> and let the income maintain you.
> >
> [M]: This is one thing, of course, but suppose the bank fails?
> Put it in the lap of God. What happened in Panama when I went
> last time? I gave my passport to the Pan American Company to
> get a visa for South America. The Panamanians were fighting with
> the Americans at the time - the very day I arrived the building was
> burned down and my passport also got burnt. You see? I could not
> go. So suppose the bank fails! You still have to leave the body;
> maybe now or in ten years or twenty years; you may go to sleep
> tonight and never rise.
> >
> [Q]: Well, would you advise everybody to sell everything or give
> away everything they have and come and follow You?
> >
> [M]: I advise, "Live by the sweat of your brow," by honest earnings.
> Maintain your families with whom God has united you. It is the
> flowing pen of God which has brought you together. This is one
> thing; and never sow more seeds to be sprouted forth again.
> Your ruling passion, your ruling attachment, should be with God.
> Further, man should live not for his own self but for others.
> Animals do live for themselves. They fight others with their horns
> to save their children. If man does the same, where's his superiority?
> Man is the ruling power, you see; the highest in all creation, he
> has just to support the younger brothers, animals, birds, reptiles;
> they are all members of the family of God. They are younger brothers.
> >
> [Q]: We haven't been doing very well by them.
> >
> [M]: That is what I say. We are the heads. The head of the family
> should look after the welfare of all, and we go and eat them. It's
> not common sense. I love you and eat your children. We say we
> love God; all this creation is His. Here we have got cobras. If you
> have love for them, love radiates. They also have some sense, you
> see. "Be wise as serpents," Christ said. So our thoughts react, they
> use self-defense against us; attack. It so happened at Delhi,
> a Satsang had just started and a cobra came. There were some
> two or three hundred people sitting. This cobra came just in front
> of me and sat like that. To shoot this cobra wouldn't help. The
> talk was going on. He was just looking at me for more than an
> hour and a half. When the talk was over, he slipped away. They
> said, "We should kill him!" But why? He did not harm anyone.
> We are man, you see. Great is man. They're all our children.
> It is you who have spoiled the children. All nature is beautiful
> except when tormented by the hand of man.
> >
> [Q]: And man will have to pay for this?
> >
> [M]: Reactions. Reactions. You should love them. Generally
> in the case of serpents, they don't harm any child. Sometimes
> a child takes a snake in his mouth and it does not harm him.
> >
> [Q]: Is there any chance that when you kill a snake you might
> be killing an old mother-in-law from a previous reincarnation?
> >
> [M]: May or may not be, who knows? But serpents are only those
> who are very greedy people; those who were hoarding money.
> I tell you one man came here and he killed a female cobra that
> lived here. The male cobra came here for months to seek out
> that man. But he was never here. They're very smart. We have
> a glorious world but we have spoiled it by our own thoughts.
> >
> [Q]: In a statement You made this afternoon, I still am not exactly
> certain what You meant when You said that it was harder to become
> a man than to see God.
> >
> [M]: It is easier to meet God but it is harder to make a man.
> So it should be: man first, and then Him.
> >
> [Q]: Well, I think if you see God you would automatically
> have all these karmas wiped out and become a perfect man.
> >
> [M]: You're right, but what I mean is, to have an ideal man
> is very difficult. To find God is not. That takes time - to make
> a man takes time. The time factor is a necessity. It is not
> done in one day.
> >
> [Q]: But if you see God, what do you care about becoming
> a perfect man? Why do you care?
> >
> [M]: You get a glimpse of It; to get a glimpse of It is something
> else. You see the sun for a while but if you are absorbed in the
> sun, then?
> >
> [Q]: But only the perfect man can continue to see God?
> >
> [M]: Only the perfect man continually sees God, that's right.
> That means that righteousness is necessary. Righteousness:
> right thoughts, right words, right deeds. That is why this
> diary is kept until we are perfect. Man should change inside,
> not outside. Chastity of thought, word, and deed. That's the
> first thing required. The second thing is perseverance. These
> two things are required.
> >
> [Q]: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion from
> coming that seems so inevitable?
> >
> [M]: Many will be saved who will turn their faces to Him.
> That's all I can say. The only thing is, we say something
> but mean something else. That's the trouble. If the
> governments really want peace, they should have an
> attitude of live and let others live. Make their countries
> so advanced and peace giving that everyone would want
> to come over there. Each government should make their
> country into a blooming garden - let everyone come and
> enjoy and help others bring their gardens into a blooming
> state. That should be the attitude.
> >
> [Q]: You're painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight.
> Can't You offer us any hope?
> >
> [M]: I have said - those who turn their faces to Him will be
> saved. There's hope. I'm talking about the general state of
> affairs. The tendency is to remain and enjoy; headlong
> down they are going. They speak of peace, they speak
> of peace - lip service, but they have turned away. There's
> trouble going on everywhere. Right understanding is required.
> This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out
> to give right understanding to the government and wake
> up. Anyhow, it is past the hands of the son of man - that
> much is sure. But there's awakening also and there's a good
> side. There are conferences all meeting together; and now
> the trend is to unite all nations.
> >
> {END}

I did a search on the Ruhani site while looking
for Rumi and found info on Kabir as well. I also
discovered a "glossary of terms" used by Kirpal
Singh when giving talks to the USA Ruhani Satsang
group.

It's interesting looking at some of these Hindu
words and Ruhani terms and comparing them
to the words & definitions found in the EK Lexicon.

Remember, Klemp used Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary
to create his EK Lexicon.

I noticed that Twit was playing his games by doing
a letter reversal on some words to turn them into
his own unique EK version. PT also altered the definitions
as well. PT changed KALMA into KALAM. I also see how
Twitchell got the word ECKANKAR from EK-ANKAR,
but Eckists will of course deny this fact.

It's interesting reading about Rumi and Kibir and
Shamas Tabrez, or the Naam and using "charged"
words, God-Realized men, and the Music of the
Spheres. And let's not forget the Manukhs (worldly
people) or those Souls who are not "spiritual" All
religions have their rules and beliefs. Twitchell
merely created a Western copy of this one! And,
since PT was an initiated member of Ruhani Satsang
it became easy to do at the time.

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/tog.htm

There are also some of Kirpal's talks in German
and Spanish!

Check it out!

Glossary:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gloss.htm

Search Tools:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/search.htm

Rumi:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/godman/godman_23.htm

Rumi & Kibir:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/godman/godman_7.htm

More Kabir:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/grand-delusion.htm

The Mystery of Death:
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/mod/mod_intro.htm

Prometheus

ECKists need to use their Lexicons again!
I found this while doing a search for Hu on
this Ruhani Satsang site. Type in Hu (note
"u" is not capitalized) when doing the search.

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/search.htm

It's very clear that Twitchell's real Master was
Kirpal Singh and Not Rebazar Tarzs! This is just
one more lie that makes Klemp less than what
he claims, as well as, the EK Teachings!


-----------CHAPTER THREE--------

--------GRADATIONS IN MASTERSHIP---


Masters are of four different types: The father,
the mother, the preceptor or teacher, and lastly,
Satguru (Spiritual Guide or Murshid-i-Kamil).

Of all of these, Satguru is the greatest teacher,
for he imparts spiritual instructions alone. One
who is well-versed in worldly wisdom is called
acharya or preceptor, for he gives us rules of
social conduct and of ethical life.

Satguru or Master of Truth is also known as Sant
Satguru. His relation with his disciples is purely
a spiritual one, as he is concerned with the advancement
of spirit and has nothing to do with worldly matters.

From the viewpoint of spiritual attainments Gurus
may be classified as:

              Sadh Guru,
              Sant Satguru, and
              Param Sant Satguru.

A Sadh is one who has gone beyond the region
of Trikuti (Onkar) which is the same as Lahut in
Sufi terminology and *Hu in Islamic theology. He
has witnessed the spirit in its pristine glory, after
having rid it of all coverings, and is now Trigunatit
(beyond the three gunas: Satva, Rajas, and Tamas,
in which all human beings work according to their
natural and native instincts); beyond the five elements
(earth, water, fire, air and ether, of which the physical
world is composed); beyond the twenty-five Prakritis
(the subtle forms in varying degrees of the elements);
and beyond also mind and matter.

In short, he is an adept in self-knowledge,
or the art and science of spirit, and can, at will,
disengage the spirit from various koshas (sheaths
or caskets) in which it is enclosed like a priceless gem.

The greatness of a Sadh lies beyond the three
gunas (as he is Trigunatit).

By a process of self-analysis, he (a Sadh) has
known the self or spirit in its real form-to wit,
that it is of the same essence as God; and now
he strives for God-knowledge.

A Sant is one who is adept not only in self-
knowledge  but in God-knowledge as well.
He far transcends the  material, materio-spiritual,
and spirituo-material realms. Master of Truth
as he is, his abode is in the purely spiritual region,
technically called Sach Khand or Muqam-i-Haq,
the Realm of Truth.

A Param Sant is the Grand Master of Truth
beyond all description and hence ineffable.
He is at one with what is variously known
as Anami (The Nameless One) of Kabir;
Nirala (Indescribably Wonderful), Mahadayal
(Boundless Mercy) or Swami (The Great Lord of All).

There is no material difference between
a Sant and a Param Sant except in nomenclature.

But none of them, whether a Sadh, a Sant, or
a Param Sant, can act or function as a Guru or
Master unless he is competent to impart spiritual
instructions and he has been commissioned from
above to do this work. Whoever holds this authority
for spiritual work becomes a Sadh Guru, Sant Guru
or Param Sant Guru, as the case may be.

There may be a number of Sadhs, Sants or Param
Sants, but none of them can of himself assume
Guruship or spiritual preceptorship without being
commissioned for the work.

So the terms Sadh, Sant and Param Sant have
a  much wider connotation than the term Guru,
which is restricted to a spiritual preceptor alone -
the rest being only spiritual adepts of varying degrees.

The Guru holds a direct commission from God,
and works under instructions just as any vice-
regent would do on behalf of a king.

Again Gurus are of two types:

1. Swateh Sant Gurus: They are born Sants who
come into the world with direct commissions;
as for instance, Kabir Sahib and Guru Nanak.

They start the work of spiritual knowledge and
instructions right from a tender age. They need
no special training from anyone, since they come
from the Most High for this purpose. Such beings,
when they come, simply flood the world with the
light of Spirituality, and establish a line of Gurmukh
Gurus for carrying on the work long after them.
But in course of time, substance comes to be
sacrificed for show, and gradually Spirituality
disappears altogether.

Then comes another Master Soul to re-orient this
most ancient science according to the needs of the
age. In this way, "old wine" remains in circulation for
souls athirst. Such Master Souls do appear from time
to time in different lands and among different peoples.

2. Besides Swateh Sants there are Sants who by
devotional practice and spiritual discipline under
the guidance of some Master Soul acquire spiritual
merit here and are granted a commission to work
as a Guru.

They already have a rich spiritual background ripe for
fruition, and in the present span of life simply seem
to complete the process. Gurmukhs are always in the
making from life to life, and acquire perfection in this life.

Kabir saith that he came directly from the Kingdom
of God and held an instrument of instructions from Him.

Bhai Gurdas, while speaking of Guru Nanak, tells us:

First he got a commission and then he worked it out.

In short, the former come with authority, and the latter
acquire authority while here. But there is absolutely no
difference between the greatness of the two, the nature
and scope of their work and the method by which the
work is executed. Each of them is endowed with equal
authority, and works out the grand plan of God according
to the needs of the time and of the people.

But the rest who claim this status and pose and act as
Master Souls not only deceive themselves but misguide
the masses at large. In this category are included persons
who are either greedy and selfish or those who are after
name and fame.

In innumerably different ways and wiles they practice
deception on the unwary and simple-minded seekers
after Truth with a view to serve their own ends.

It is because of such impositions that Guruship is being
looked down upon by most people, and no wonder that
the science of Spirituality is being stigmatized as a mirage
and a fool's paradise. {END}

Yes, and Eckankar via Twit and now Klemp is truly
a fool's paradise!

Prometheus

Twitchell's real Master, Kirpal, also talks of the
Master Power, the Master's Gift of Love, Grace,
Blessings, the inside/outside (inner/outer), etc.

Ruhani Satsang is the true origin of Eckankar.

ECKists should do some of their own research
and check out the following sites:

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/elixir.htm

The next section speaks of the Blue Light, etc.

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/drops.htm

Here's some interesting info:

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/ekonkar.htm

Now these next sections are very interesting
because it talks about keeping a daily Diary.
It even has a printable form where one can keep
track of things for improvement... in order to
balance the outer in order to reach inner perfection.
A big issue is Lust and, therefore, the form helps
to track Chastity of Thoughts, Words, and Deeds!

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/diary.htm

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gfx/new_diary.gif

Remember, "Mahanta" really means "monastery head."
[The Holy Science by Swami Sri Yukteswar, Introduction
pg. vi]

Thus, Twitchell just did some "tweaking" to create his
own Western version (sect) of the Ruhani Satsang sect.
The only thing is that Twitchell was a liar, unqualified,
and Not anywhere close to being a 'Master." And, this
is the scam that was handed down by Paul's cohort,
Gail, to Darwin and then to Klemp!

ECKists really need to do the research! And, ECKists
need to do a comparison between Kirpal and Klemp!
Read what Kirpal has to say and then compare this to
Klemp's simple-mined stories that have No spiritual
meat. Most ECKists can remember the story about the
Hundredth Monkey.... where is the spiritual meat when
this story is compared to Kirpal's conservations with his
chelas? Make the comparison... if you dare!

Prometheus

My Grandfather started us in Eckankar. I remember hearing Hu chants
when I was just a kid in the 80's. I joined when I was 18 and left
when I was 21. It was revealed to me by a friend that it was a hoax,
which I began to feel and know from my studies in martial arts.
There was an overall lack of integrity to the religion. I've been
out of eck for 6 yrs now and I am so eternally grateful to have
escaped such an evil and deceptive farce.
The scariest thing as that through practicing eck people open
themselves up to all sorts of negative spirits disguised as angels
of light. Once the person embraces them it is over and the person
will be lossed. These spirits have no link to the line of God in the
universe and crave that energy but can only receive it when they are
hooked onto another's spirit and body. This usually happens when one
communicates with spirits either through direct spiritual
communication or astral travel. Therefore, I urge you all to be so
careful and take every precaution to keep this from happening.
Also, I have just started to read Ford Johnson's book and it is
wonderful at debunking the undenyable misinformation in eck. If any
of you are interested his sight will allow you to access the main
chapters on the proven falsehoods in eck. In closing, my pravers and
hope is with you all that each of us may fully heal through the act
of correcting our mistakes while forgiving others and ourselves.

Love,
R