--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
<zoey_true@...> wrote:
>
> i left eckankar well before i ever reached HI status.  what are the
HI only books all about?  why can only HIs read them?  is there
anything in them that is so revolutionary that ordinary mortals can't
handle it?
>
>   curious, zoey....


The h.i. books by Klempomaniac are just as empty of anything
groundbreaking or meaningful as his other books. I was rather
surprised when I first read them. The same applies to the h.i.
letters. I'd say the reason they're only for H.I.'s is because HK
delves into h.i. problems and organizational conflicts, etc., that
would be unseamly and revealing if non-h.i.'s read them.

You would laugh out loud if you ever read one of these books. Just
think of any other book HK has written, and you know what the H.I.
books are like. Nothing worth writing home about.

The same applies to the H.I. meetings at seminars that HK leads (if
he still is doing this). Nothing at all that different than the other
talks he gives. But it does make the H.I.s feel really, really
special! They all get to hang together to see and be seen. A room
full of egos, no more.

Kent




>
> prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>   Hello All,
> April 6-8, in Minneapolis will be more of the same
> as the carrots are dangled in front of the glassy eyed
> ECKists. Yep, there will be more promises of new
> insights, new understandings, unfoldment, service,
> surrender, and becoming a Co-worker with God,
> a Co-worker with SUGMAD, a Co-worker with the
> Mahanta, etc. There will also be talks with testimonials,
> and dream experiences or interventions by the
> Mahanta or another ECK Master. Yes, the imagination
> will used, as well as, embellishments to tell these
> Reader's Digest type of stories. There will be nothing
> really "new" for the individual Soul, especially, for
> H.I.s! Of course, there will be more trainings available
> and H.I.s will be encouraged to start or join monthly
> H.I. book discussions and H.I. Letter discussions.
>
> The Masters 4 Discourse is the last discourse and it's
> 15 years old (more or less). There has been nothing
> available to H.I.s, except, the old H.I. Only books.
> Even the most recent WMSL and WWMSL (Leadership
> book and Workbook) are about 5 years old!
>
> Klemp & Company will, probably, stress how important
> it is to get into or start a "new" monthly book discussion.
> All total these book discussions will last AT LEAST
> ANOTHER 5 or MORE years before H.I.s could complete
> these. And, these discussions will be on older material
> when HK's Mahanta Consciousness was less developed
> than it is now... and that's only Mid-Astral by now! LOL!
>
> ECKists will be spending their money on Seminar entry,
> Hotels, Transportation, meals, tips, and the purchase of
> ECK materials in the Bookroom. It will be fun to see old
> friends and to meet new ones, but sad as well. Some
> people won't be there. Have they translated, or have
> they left ECKANKAR? Or, maybe they just didn't have
> the time, money, and the desire to come to another
> boring ECK Seminar! Maybe they're too busy living
> life!
>
> What's the point in physical travel to a spiritual seminar?
> Can't a true Mahanta have ECK Seminars on the INNER?
> This Inner training, etc. is one of the promises isn't it!
>
> If H.I.'s can't have Inner ECK Seminars then what's the
> point! Where and when do those Higher ECK Initiations
> kick in and begin to work if the Mahanta can't walk the
> walk himself!
>
> Where does the fault lie? The Higher Initiations shouldn't
> be given to those with a Lower Consciousness and if they
> are given then whose fault is that! The ECKist receives
> the Pink Slip from Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta. Therefore,
> H.I.'s should be qualified and able to do all that is required
> of at least their last Initiation! A 6th should have at least
> mastered the requirements of the 5th Plane before becoming
> a 6th! The same goes for all initiations!
>
> At the Seminar or in the Local Area ECKists should just
> look around and observe their fellow H.I.s when these
> people acting on their best behaviour. What do you see
> and hear? Why are there lower initiates that seem higher
> than the High Initiates?!
>
> Closely listen to what they say and how they say it.
> Does this depict a person that has advanced training
> to become an ECK Master? And, are there non-ECKists
> that seem to have just as high of consciousness? Sure
> there are! That's just the point. The power of the ECK
> Initiations is all in one's mind. No one person, and
> especially religion, has anything close to the truth
> for everyone. Only Soul has the Truth for Itself.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40?  Find a flick in no time
>  with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
>

Hello All,
Zoey, I agree with Kent... the H.I. Only crap is nonsense.
Just do a search of the archived "Messages" of the various
"H.I. Letters" on this site.

Also, both Books 1 & 2 of "The Holy Fire of ECK" are merely
recycled excerpts from H.I. Letters of 10-20 years ago!

Etznab, why don't you comment on these quotes (below)
by Rebazar where it seems he is the true LEM and that Sat
Nam (not listed in HK's spiritual hierarchy) is the true inner
Master.

Also, that 1951 date for PT meeting Rebazar on his
"second" trip to India can't be believed since HK, unknownly,
proves that there was No "first" trip in 1935 when Twitch
was 27 years old. HK states that PT was, at the time, lying
to get into Who's Who in Kentucky and had not been out
of the country. PT - born 1908, Age 27 in 1935. Why can't
HK (the "Intellectual" and "Modern Prophet") connect the
dots?!

Are you turning a blind eye to these facts in order to stay
on the good side of your RESA and not get Black Listed
for the 5th Initiation? I was surprised to read your comments
on A.R.E. where you praise Klemp. Just because PT sounded
intelligent from time-to-time doesn't mean that he was or
that he wasn't a liar. As far as Klemp goes... out of the
thousands of authors out there, past and present, HK
has to be in the bottom .01% ! Most everything he writes
is based upon Twitchell's former religion Ruhani Satsang
and upon Twitchell's Westernized/New Age distortions.
And, upon letters sent to HK by ECKists (IRO's too) or the
recycled stories of other authors including the Bible!

Rebazar is just a fictional character that is developed over
the years as any fiction writer does with his characters. L.
Ron Hubbard did the same and Twitch long ago copied
Hubbard's organizational ideas and example as well as
the Radhasoami and Ruhani living Master concepts.

Anyone can sound like a Master when they steal other's
thoughts and words and make them their own.

Prometheus


prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I thought this would be worth posting again.
> Perhaps newer ECKists will be able to find some
> copies of "Dialogues With the Master" in the ECK
> Bookroom at the ECK Springtime Seminar and
> check these quotes out. Apparently, the old-time
> ECKists have just skimmed over these details
> as they speed read along!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> Hello All,
> This shows that Rebazar is not only the Lower
> Worlds 'torchbearer,' the true LEM for ECKANKAR,
> and that SAT NAM is the true INNER MASTER.
> Here's more proof, for ECKists, from Twitchell's
> book "DIALOGUES WITH THE MASTER" of this fact:
> >
> REBAZAR TARZS (R.T.)
>
> [R.T.]: "While still in the lower regions of the Astral
> plane and that of Brahm, Soul is liable always to
> return to earth and to rebirth and death -- the
> 'Wheel of the Eighty-four.' But when It reaches the
> pure region of Sat Lok, which is the first plane beyond
> Sach Khand there is no more returning to earth, except
> as a Redeemer. Soul becomes a saint Itself; AND THE
> MISSION OF HIS MASTER IS THROUGH, AS FAR AS THE
> JOURNEY GOES. But Soul has yet to travel over the most
> sublime and beautiful part of Its journey. For above
> Sach Khand there are three other planes of inconceivable
> splendor. HERE THE LORD OF THE FIFTH WORLD, SAT
> NAM, TAKES OVER AND GUIDES SOUL TO THE END OF
> ITS JOURNEY.
> >
> "FIRST, IT BECOMES UNITED WITH THE VERY ESSENCE OF
> SAT NAM IN A MYSTIC SENSE, AND SO BECOMES ONE WITH
> IT, PARTAKING OF ALL OF ITS ATTRIBUTES. IT THEN ADVANCES
> TO THE THREE REMAINING REGIONS.
> >
> "Next is the ALAKH LOK... and after this is AGAM LOK...
> Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
> of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD, the supreme LORD
> of all that exists. [End of quotes, my caps, pgs. 105-106]
> >
> > *************************************************************
>
> BTW- SAT LOK, SACH KHAND, ATMA LOK, FIFTH PLANE,
> SOUL PLANE are all the same and the true home of Soul.
> [ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg. 177, 183]
> >
> Also, Klemp DOES NOT mention SAT NAM in ECKANKAR's
> Spiritual Hierarchy on page 197 of the Lexicon?!
> >
> It's interesting too, that Rebazar states that there are only
> THREE REMAINING REGIONS ABOVE SACH KHAND (the 5th).
> >
> And, ALAKH LOK is the 6th Plane or Region, while AGAM
> LOK is the 9th Plane or Region, and while the NAMELESS
> region is "named" the ANAMI LOK (10th Plane) on the God
> Worlds Chart. It, also, looks like there is a higher region
> named SUGMAD, Ocean of Love and Mercy above the ANAMI
> LOK. [page 232 of the ECKANKAR Lexicon]
> >
> Okay, I just looked it up and the ANAMI LOK is the highest
> Region and is where SUGMAD resides (pg. 9, Lexicon). And,
> Ocean of Love and Mercy, on page 153, states that this is
> also the name for SUGMAD.
> >
> I just have two more observations. Why is the highest
> Plane the 10th ANAMI LOK when even an 'un-cooked'
> Living ECK Master (according to HK) starts out as a 12th
> on the 12th? What's with that? Is REBAZAR wrong?
> >
> Also, isn't it strange that REBAZAR gives the 6th, 9th,
> and 10th Planes/Regions above the 5th for Soul to
> complete Its journey with SAT NAM?
> >
> This means that early on (circa 1968) Twitchell/Rebazar
> had only EIGHT PLANES listed! So, was Twitchell lying
> and just created a fictional REBAZAR, or was REBAZAR
> mistaken or lying about guiding Soul to the 5th and then
> handing It off to SAT NAM instead of to a Mahanta.
> Remember, the Mahanta title was first mentioned by
> Twitch in the JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes.
> >
> Prometheus
>

Hi Etznab,

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
---snip---
>
>    Apparently, Paul Twitchell was dialoging with more than Rebazar
>Tarzs -
> (his name first mentioned in 1964?) in the later 1950s.

***If he did, then "apparently" it was because he heard voices in his
head! LOL!
Paul Twitchell was a LIAR, Etznab, as Mish has pointed out already.
And, would you like to have the 5th initiation, and thus the praise
for HK on a.r.e.??
Ingrid

>
>    According to other sources, Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in
1951.
>
>    Did he also meet Swami Premananda in 1951? I'm not sure.
>
>    At any rate, if only for clarification, Dialogues With The
>Master may have
> begun long before 1968 or 1970.
>
> Etznab
>
>
>
>
>
> Etznab
>
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
>

Hello All,
Quarterly H.I. Letter articles are current instructions
for H.I.s. This one contains the instructions to improve
communication within the ECK community. However,
Klemp never follows his own advice. Twitchell,
too, uses 'BUT' often in the Shariyat... Klemp does, as
well, in his current books.

However, what's incredible is that Klemp continues
to use "BUT" in his Members Only articles still today!

Klemp states that using 'BUT' is "limiting" and shows
you've stopped "listening" and produces a constant
stream of "contradictions."

What a hypocrite! Or, is Klemp just oblivious! Either way it
shows that he is Not a "Master" of anything, except, deceit
and trickery (an agent of Kal), and is Unconscious of
even his own (Mental Plane) words. How can HK, therefore,
be higher in consciousness than a 3rd Initiate when he hasn't
mastered the 4th Plane?!


Prometheus wrote:

[ME]:
> This is where Klemp talks about Not using "Ifs" "Ands" and "Buts"
> within the Eck community and forgets to follow his own advice in:
> the Letter of Light, The Mystic World, in this H.I. Letter or when
> addressing Eckists in "Those Wonderful Eck Masters (pg.211)!" Klemp
> is just all talk and is mentioning this quote from Kant to sound
> well read and intelligent, like G.W. Bush, who is Klemp's hero and
> fellow deceiver. The bigger question is why are these words okay for
> public use and Not for Eckists (other than Klemp)? LOL!


> [HK] "Next, I need to translate those images into today's language.
> That's why much of my writing is simple. It leaves less room for
> misinterpreting and makes translating into other languages easier."


> [Me] The Shariyats Do Not use "simple" language and they are
> the "Holy Books" of Eckankar and are offered to the foreign public.
> Is Klemp thinking about simplifying them? It is not so much the
> language that HK uses as to the content. Klemp must be reading these
> posts for him to be so defensive about this and needing to explain
> himself.


> [HK] "I take care to translate the images from the ECK to human
> language as accurately as possible. They flow through directly in a
> burst."


> [Me] How does something "flow" in a "burst?" It would help if Klemp
> (the Mahanta) would use the correct choice of words! Perhaps he
> should have said that, They "come" through directly in a burst or
> that They "appear" or "manifest" directly in a burst. These sound
> better, make more sense, and are more accurate!


> [HK] "Many are sharing their ideas from the mental arena, and it
> uplifts people. I look at the ideas and thoughts of philosophers."


> [Me] Really! I though that all of these past ideas and thoughts were
> below the consciousness of the current Eck teachings! If the
> consciousness of Twitchell is lower that today's Mahanta
> Consciousness what about the past thoughts and ideas of non-Masters
> or even non-Living (in a physical body) Eck Masters?! What about the
> consciousness of the Shariyats?


> [HK] "One thing that strikes me about Immanuel Kant was something he
> said that acts out an appreciation for life, which shows gratitude
> in expression. He said, no ifs, ands, or buts. By that he meant.
> make your statements clean and clear."


> [Me] The B.S. meter is starting to rise higher! Question: Why does
> Klemp view Kant's opinions so highly? I don't! Besides, where's the
> gratitude by Not using these words Only to Eckists? Or at all? Weird
> Harold!!!


> [HK] "Suppose on
e, for example, says to a student, 'Study hard if
> you want to make your degree.' Kant says, forget the stuff at the
> end. Say just, 'Study hard.'


> [Me] I think that the "if" is just giving emphasis and focus to the
> point being made... Study hard "if" you want that degree. The "if"
> helps to bring ones attention back to the overall goal. Otherwise
> the "study hard" just doesn't have the same impact. Where's Kant
> when you need him? Actually, some people don't even have to "Study
> hard." Both comments are simply Kant's opinions. Kant's comments
> don't have any more validity than yours or mine! SOUL=SOUL... right?!
> Wake up little Harry! Hello! By the way, you Eckies maight want to
> just say, Blessings! Instead of the longer version. LOL!


> [HK] "When someone says BUT, its a nail in the coffin of invention.
> A constant stream of CONTRADICTIONS shuts off creativity and a gift
> that may be offered. And WHEN SOMEONE SAYS BUT, HE'S STOPPED
> LISTENING. So be aware when using IF. And especially when using BUT,
> because IT'S LIMITING. Move straight ahead. It throws a condition
> under your feet that is a trip wire." [My caps]


> [Me] Trip wire? Nice military jargon Klemp! Is this keeping it
> simple and helping to translate your words into other languages? LOL!

> Here are HK's quotes to chelas in TWEM pg.211: "BUT IF he chooses to
> hang on to shopworn karmic debts due to, say, AN INABILITY TO
> CONTROL SOME MENTAL PASSION or HABIT LIKE ANGER then HIS SPIRITUAL
> MOMENTUM STOPS." So, Klemp is using "contradictions" himself by
> using "But if!" Perhaps this is because "an inability to control
> some mental passion" like jumping off a bridge! LOL! Here's more
> from TWEM page 211 (thanks Jackie!): "BUT such an attitude changes
> nothing. The individual is a LOSER and will continue to be a LOSER
> until he adopts the practices of a WINNER." And, don't ever forget
> Klemp's angry and negative comments to that TEMPORARY POSTAL CLERK
> in the 09/2003 H.I. Letter! Klemp always said that he wasn't much of
> a listener! Yet, he points out that ESAs should be! Another
> contradiction!


> [HK] "This is pretty much for ourselves, because in dealing with
> others, you may need to use if, and, or but."


> [Me] So, Eckists should Not use "if" in order to give emphasis to a
> topic with one another, however, it's okay to use "if" with the
> public! And, Eckists should Not use "but" with one another because
> Klemp says that it is used with "contradictions" and "shuts off
> creativity and a gift that may be offered." However, "but" is okay
> for public use!


> [HK] "And is better because it doesn't limit and is a building
> block."


> [Me] So why mention "and" in the first place? Oh, I know! Kant
> mentioned "and," thus,  HK would have to leave this out of
> his "philosophical" quote otherwise. Not too clever!


> [HK] Yet, IF someone's trying to make plans for you, then you may
> need to say, 'But I don't want to.' They have no right to make your
> plans." [My caps]


> [Me] Notice the "IF" that Klemp just used! For Pete's sake (not you
> Peter! LOL!) Klemp can't even get through his own article before
> contradicting himself. I guess that nothing applies to him as it
> does to everyone else. HK must be above the law! Not really! This
> just goes to show how much of a control freak he really is, and, how
> his words or motives can't be trusted <sigh>

> Klemp now contradicts himself again when he says "YOU MAY NEED TO
> SAY, 'BUT I DON'T WANT TO.' Why not just say, I DON'T WANT TO! Just
> be direct like Kant is saying! Klemp is losing what few marbles he
> has left! Like I said before- G.W. and HK have a lot in common!
> <smile>
>
Prometheus

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
"ewickings" <ewickings@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> >If he did, then "apparently" it was because he heard voices in his
> Head! LOL!
> Paul Twitchell was a LIAR, Etznab, as Mish has pointed out already.
> And, would you like to have the 5th initiation, and thus the praise
> For HK on a.r.e.??
> Ingrid
>
>
>
> ****  Actually you guys, don't you think Etznab deserves his 5th, look at
> all the work he has put into researching!  Besides that, then he will also
> get first hand experience of how those Higher Initiations are nothing but a
> number...  Sometimes people need to see it for themselves to be convinced,
> so let him waste more time apparently he doesn't have anything else to do?
> Another thought, maybe HQ will offer him a job with their editor's dept.!
> -) Then he could really be of service!
>
> TGIAF
>
> Hugs, Liz
>

I think you're right, Liz, about seeking to discover for oneself. Sort of like
discovering how hot fire is--can't really know until you stick your fingers
in it! Actually, the experience can lead one to reality that eckankar is just
a fraud by another name or one can do the thing that Doug Marman does,
spin, spin, spin! LOL! So, yeah, Etznab, go for it! It will be interesting to
see how you imagine it is at the "higher level" of spiritual evolvement. But
of course, those who have been there, done that, like Liz, Kent and
Prometheus and some other former members, know that there is no such
thing as being "better" or "higher" than other souls just because some
fake master like HK sends one a pink slip labelling one as such a fool!
Remember HK's "true" master was a black magician who gave him all his
higher initiations! What are those really worth??? And so therefore,
what are the ones the Black Magician's Apprentice (HK) gives out worth?
LOL! Well, go for it!

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
wrote:
>
> i left eckankar well before i ever reached HI status. what are the
HI only books all about? why can only HIs read them? is there
anything in them that is so revolutionary that ordinary mortals can't
handle it?
>
> curious, zoey....


The h.i. books by Klempomaniac are just as empty of anything
groundbreaking or meaningful as his other books. I was rather
surprised when I first read them. The same applies to the h.i.
letters. I'd say the reason they're only for H.I.'s is because HK
delves into h.i. problems and organizational conflicts, etc., that
would be unseamly and revealing if non-h.i.'s read them.

You would laugh out loud if you ever read one of these books. Just
think of any other book HK has written, and you know what the H.I.
books are like. Nothing worth writing home about.

The same applies to the H.I. meetings at seminars that HK leads (if
he still is doing this). Nothing at all that different than the other
talks he gives. But it does make the H.I.s feel really, really
special! They all get to hang together to see and be seen. A room
full of egos, no more.

Kent




>
> prometheus_973 wrote:
> Hello All,
> April 6-8, in Minneapolis will be more of the same
> as the carrots are dangled in front of the glassy eyed
> ECKists. Yep, there will be more promises of new
> insights, new understandings, unfoldment, service,
> surrender, and becoming a Co-worker with God,
> a Co-worker with SUGMAD, a Co-worker with the
> Mahanta, etc. There will also be talks with testimonials,
> and dream experiences or interventions by the
> Mahanta or another ECK Master. Yes, the imagination
> will used, as well as, embellishments to tell these
> Reader's Digest type of stories. There will be nothing
> really "new" for the individual Soul, especially, for
> H.I.s! Of course, there will be more trainings available
> and H.I.s will be encouraged to start or join monthly
> H.I. book discussions and H.I. Letter discussions.
>
> The Masters 4 Discourse is the last discourse and it's
> 15 years old (more or less). There has been nothing
> available to H.I.s, except, the old H.I. Only books.
> Even the most recent WMSL and WWMSL (Leadership
> book and Workbook) are about 5 years old!
>
> Klemp & Company will, probably, stress how important
> it is to get into or start a "new" monthly book discussion.
> All total these book discussions will last AT LEAST
> ANOTHER 5 or MORE years before H.I.s could complete
> these. And, these discussions will be on older material
> when HK's Mahanta Consciousness was less developed
> than it is now... and that's only Mid-Astral by now! LOL!
>
> ECKists will be spending their money on Seminar entry,
> Hotels, Transportation, meals, tips, and the purchase of
> ECK materials in the Bookroom. It will be fun to see old
> friends and to meet new ones, but sad as well. Some
> people won't be there. Have they translated, or have
> they left ECKANKAR? Or, maybe they just didn't have
> the time, money, and the desire to come to another
> boring ECK Seminar! Maybe they're too busy living
> life!
>
> What's the point in physical travel to a spiritual seminar?
> Can't a true Mahanta have ECK Seminars on the INNER?
> This Inner training, etc. is one of the promises isn't it!
>
> If H.I.'s can't have Inner ECK Seminars then what's the
> point! Where and when do those Higher ECK Initiations
> kick in and begin to work if the Mahanta can't walk the
> walk himself!
>
> Where does the fault lie? The Higher Initiations shouldn't
> be given to those with a Lower Consciousness and if they
> are given then whose fault is that! The ECKist receives
> the Pink Slip from Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta. Therefore,
> H.I.'s should be qualified and able to do all that is required
> of at least their last Initiation! A 6th should have at least
> mastered the requirements of the 5th Plane before becoming
> a 6th! The same goes for all initiations!
>
> At the Seminar or in the Local Area ECKists should just
> look around and observe their fellow H.I.s when these
> people acting on their best behaviour. What do you see
> and hear? Why are there lower initiates that seem higher
> than the High Initiates?!
>
> Closely listen to what they say and how they say it.
> Does this depict a person that has advanced training
> to become an ECK Master? And, are there non-ECKists
> that seem to have just as high of consciousness? Sure
> there are! That's just the point. The power of the ECK
> Initiations is all in one's mind. No one person, and
> especially religion, has anything close to the truth
> for everyone. Only Soul has the Truth for Itself.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
>





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--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
"ewickings" wrote:
>
>
>
> >If he did, then "apparently" it was because he heard voices in his
> Head! LOL!
> Paul Twitchell was a LIAR, Etznab, as Mish has pointed out already.
> And, would you like to have the 5th initiation, and thus the praise
> For HK on a.r.e.??
> Ingrid
>
>
>
> **** Actually you guys, don't you think Etznab deserves his 5th, look at
> all the work he has put into researching! Besides that, then he will also
> get first hand experience of how those Higher Initiations are nothing but a
> number... Sometimes people need to see it for themselves to be convinced,
> so let him waste more time apparently he doesn't have anything else to do?
> Another thought, maybe HQ will offer him a job with their editor's dept.!
> -) Then he could really be of service!
>
> TGIAF
>
> Hugs, Liz
>

I think you're right, Liz, about seeking to discover for oneself. Sort of like
discovering how hot fire is--can't really know until you stick your fingers
in it! Actually, the experience can lead one to reality that eckankar is just
a fraud by another name or one can do the thing that Doug Marman does,
spin, spin, spin! LOL! So, yeah, Etznab, go for it! It will be interesting to
see how you imagine it is at the "higher level" of spiritual evolvement. But
of course, those who have been there, done that, like Liz, Kent and
Prometheus and some other former members, know that there is no such
thing as being "better" or "higher" than other souls just because some
fake master like HK sends one a pink slip labelling one as such a fool!
Remember HK's "true" master was a black magician who gave him all his
higher initiations! What are those really worth??? And so therefore,
what are the ones the Black Magician's Apprentice (HK) gives out worth?
LOL! Well, go for it!

Mish





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you know, i once had this hopeful idea that the hi - only material would eventually answer all my questions (when i reached that exalted status, that is).  i honestly half-way believed that.  for example, i thought the hi material might reveal the fact that eck masters weren't real, but were used for some stragetical spiriutal reason that lower initiates weren't prepared to hear.    -   but i guess it's horse shit all the way to the top.

 

zoey....

tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
wrote:
>
> i left eckankar well before i ever reached HI status. what are the
HI only books all about? why can only HIs read them? is there
anything in them that is so revolutionary that ordinary mortals can't
handle it?
>
> curious, zoey....


The h.i. books by Klempomaniac are just as empty of anything
groundbreaking or meaningful as his other books. I was rather
surprised when I first read them. The same applies to the h.i.
letters. I'd say the reason they're only for H.I.'s is because HK
delves into h.i. problems and organizational conflicts, etc., that
would be unseamly and revealing if non-h.i.'s read them.

You would laugh out loud if you ever read one of these books. Just
think of any other book HK has written, and you know what the H.I.
books are like. Nothing worth writing home about.

The same applies to the H.I. meetings at seminars that HK leads (if
he still is doing this). Nothing at all that different than the other
talks he gives. But it does make the H.I.s feel really, really
special! They all get to hang together to see and be seen. A room
full of egos, no more.

Kent




>
> prometheus_973 wrote:
> Hello All,
> April 6-8, in Minneapolis will be more of the same
> as the carrots are dangled in front of the glassy eyed
> ECKists. Yep, there will be more promises of new
> insights, new understandings, unfoldment, service,
> surrender, and becoming a Co-worker with God,
> a Co-worker with SUGMAD, a Co-worker with the
> Mahanta, etc. There will also be talks with testimonials,
> and dream experiences or interventions by the
> Mahanta or another ECK Master. Yes, the imagination
> will used, as well as, embellishments to tell these
> Reader's Digest type of stories. There will be nothing
> really "new" for the individual Soul, especially, for
> H.I.s! Of course, there will be more trainings available
> and H.I.s will be encouraged to start or join monthly
> H.I. book discussions and H.I. Letter discussions.
>
> The Masters 4 Discourse is the last discourse and it's
> 15 years old (more or less). There has been nothing
> available to H.I.s, except, the old H.I. Only books.
> Even the most recent WMSL and WWMSL (Leadership
> book and Workbook) are about 5 years old!
>
> Klemp & Company will, probably, stress how important
> it is to get into or start a "new" monthly book discussion.
> All total these book discussions will last AT LEAST
> ANOTHER 5 or MORE years before H.I.s could complete
> these. And, these discussions will be on older material
> when HK's Mahanta Consciousness was less developed
> than it is now... and that's only Mid-Astral by now! LOL!
>
> ECKists will be spending their money on Seminar entry,
> Hotels, Transportation, meals, tips, and the purchase of
> ECK materials in the Bookroom. It will be fun to see old
> friends and to meet new ones, but sad as well. Some
> people won't be there. Have they translated, or have
> they left ECKANKAR? Or, maybe they just didn't have
> the time, money, and the desire to come to another
> boring ECK Seminar! Maybe they're too busy living
> life!
>
> What's the point in physical travel to a spiritual seminar?
> Can't a true Mahanta have ECK Seminars on the INNER?
> This Inner training, etc. is one of the promises isn't it!
>
> If H.I.'s can't have Inner ECK Seminars then what's the
> point! Where and when do those Higher ECK Initiations
> kick in and begin to work if the Mahanta can't walk the
> walk himself!
>
> Where does the fault lie? The Higher Initiations shouldn't
> be given to those with a Lower Consciousness and if they
> are given then whose fault is that! The ECKist receives
> the Pink Slip from Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta. Therefore,
> H.I.'s should be qualified and able to do all that is required
> of at least their last Initiation! A 6th should have at least
> mastered the requirements of the 5th Plane before becoming
> a 6th! The same goes for all initiations!
>
> At the Seminar or in the Local Area ECKists should just
> look around and observe their fellow H.I.s when these
> people acting on their best behaviour. What do you see
> and hear? Why are there lower initiates that seem higher
> than the High Initiates?!
>
> Closely listen to what they say and how they say it.
> Does this depict a person that has advanced training
> to become an ECK Master? And, are there non-ECKists
> that seem to have just as high of consciousness? Sure
> there are! That's just the point. The power of the ECK
> Initiations is all in one's mind. No one person, and
> especially religion, has anything close to the truth
> for everyone. Only Soul has the Truth for Itself.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
>





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---

Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.

Your comments, Zoey, remind me of my own thinking back before I
became an h.i. I thought that when I reached the higher initiations,
all would be okay and I'd have found all the answers I'd been
seeking. I think a lot of eckists believe this will happen for them.
So when they get the those initiations, and the novelty wears off in
a year or so, they begin to realize they're really no different than
they were before. This is when a lot of eckists begin to rethink
eckankar. They begin to release the grip a bit, and begin to see a
little more objectively for the first time in all their years in
eckankar.

I remember going to seminars and being put off by what I saw in Klemp
and the H.I.s. Everything seemed fake and phony, superficial and
based on status. I'd sit at the H.I. gatherings at the seminars and
couldn't believe my eyes. People were clearly strutting about, trying
to be oh-so-spiritual, but it all looked shallow. Klemp became boring
and too stiff and pious. Eckankar has its own brand of
conventionality, its own conventional wisdom.

My H.I. friends, I began to realize, were incapable of thinking
outside the eckankar box. If I phrased a thought in a way that
wasn't "spiritually correct" according to eckankar conventional
wisdom I'd get that raised eyebrow look. It began to seem really
limiting. And Klemp was one of the worst examples of all that I'm
stating here. Seminars became insufferable.

The hard core true believers who won't even dare to peak beneath the
veil are a curious bunch. These are the real cultists. Some of these
folks are so convinced 'up is down' they think anyone who says
otherwise is 'spinning.' Truly strange. How can people become so
lacking in basic curiosity that they don't even dare try on a
different point of view just to see if it at all fits? That was never
my style, and so eckankar was always a source of limitation, which
now I realize, looking back on it all.

I am so incredibly glad I got out of that trap. You know, we use that
word 'trap' a lot to describe eckankar, but it really is such a
quagmire to get stuck in eckankar limbo.

Kent



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
<zoey_true@...> wrote:
>
> it would be more accurate to surmise that it's horse shit from the
top, all the way to the bottom.  zoey...
>
> Zoey Salinger <zoey_true@...> wrote:    you know, i once had this
hopeful idea that the hi - only material would eventually answer all
my questions (when i reached that exalted status, that is).  i
honestly half-way believed that.  for example, i thought the hi
material might reveal the fact that eck masters weren't real, but
were used for some stragetical spiriutal reason that lower initiates
weren't prepared to hear.    -   but i guess it's horse shit all the
way to the top.
>
>   zoey....
>
> tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:
>   --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
> wrote:
> >
> > i left eckankar well before i ever reached HI status. what are
the
> HI only books all about? why can only HIs read them? is there
> anything in them that is so revolutionary that ordinary mortals
can't
> handle it?
> >
> > curious, zoey....
>
>
> The h.i. books by Klempomaniac are just as empty of anything
> groundbreaking or meaningful as his other books. I was rather
> surprised when I first read them. The same applies to the h.i.
> letters. I'd say the reason they're only for H.I.'s is because HK
> delves into h.i. problems and organizational conflicts, etc., that
> would be unseamly and revealing if non-h.i.'s read them.
>
> You would laugh out loud if you ever read one of these books. Just
> think of any other book HK has written, and you know what the H.I.
> books are like. Nothing worth writing home about.
>
> The same applies to the H.I. meetings at seminars that HK leads (if
> he still is doing this). Nothing at all that different than the
other
> talks he gives. But it does make the H.I.s feel really, really
> special! They all get to hang together to see and be seen. A room
> full of egos, no more.
>
> Kent
>
>
>
>
> >
> > prometheus_973
> wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > April 6-8, in Minneapolis will be more of the same
> > as the carrots are dangled in front of the glassy eyed
> > ECKists. Yep, there will be more promises of new
> > insights, new understandings, unfoldment, service,
> > surrender, and becoming a Co-worker with God,
> > a Co-worker with SUGMAD, a Co-worker with the
> > Mahanta, etc. There will also be talks with testimonials,
> > and dream experiences or interventions by the
> > Mahanta or another ECK Master. Yes, the imagination
> > will used, as well as, embellishments to tell these
> > Reader's Digest type of stories. There will be nothing
> > really "new" for the individual Soul, especially, for
> > H.I.s! Of course, there will be more trainings available
> > and H.I.s will be encouraged to start or join monthly
> > H.I. book discussions and H.I. Letter discussions.
> >
> > The Masters 4 Discourse is the last discourse and it's
> > 15 years old (more or less). There has been nothing
> > available to H.I.s, except, the old H.I. Only books.
> > Even the most recent WMSL and WWMSL (Leadership
> > book and Workbook) are about 5 years old!
> >
> > Klemp & Company will, probably, stress how important
> > it is to get into or start a "new" monthly book discussion.
> > All total these book discussions will last AT LEAST
> > ANOTHER 5 or MORE years before H.I.s could complete
> > these. And, these discussions will be on older material
> > when HK's Mahanta Consciousness was less developed
> > than it is now... and that's only Mid-Astral by now! LOL!
> >
> > ECKists will be spending their money on Seminar entry,
> > Hotels, Transportation, meals, tips, and the purchase of
> > ECK materials in the Bookroom. It will be fun to see old
> > friends and to meet new ones, but sad as well. Some
> > people won't be there. Have they translated, or have
> > they left ECKANKAR? Or, maybe they just didn't have
> > the time, money, and the desire to come to another
> > boring ECK Seminar! Maybe they're too busy living
> > life!
> >
> > What's the point in physical travel to a spiritual seminar?
> > Can't a true Mahanta have ECK Seminars on the INNER?
> > This Inner training, etc. is one of the promises isn't it!
> >
> > If H.I.'s can't have Inner ECK Seminars then what's the
> > point! Where and when do those Higher ECK Initiations
> > kick in and begin to work if the Mahanta can't walk the
> > walk himself!
> >
> > Where does the fault lie? The Higher Initiations shouldn't
> > be given to those with a Lower Consciousness and if they
> > are given then whose fault is that! The ECKist receives
> > the Pink Slip from Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta. Therefore,
> > H.I.'s should be qualified and able to do all that is required
> > of at least their last Initiation! A 6th should have at least
> > mastered the requirements of the 5th Plane before becoming
> > a 6th! The same goes for all initiations!
> >
> > At the Seminar or in the Local Area ECKists should just
> > look around and observe their fellow H.I.s when these
> > people acting on their best behaviour. What do you see
> > and hear? Why are there lower initiates that seem higher
> > than the High Initiates?!
> >
> > Closely listen to what they say and how they say it.
> > Does this depict a person that has advanced training
> > to become an ECK Master? And, are there non-ECKists
> > that seem to have just as high of consciousness? Sure
> > there are! That's just the point. The power of the ECK
> > Initiations is all in one's mind. No one person, and
> > especially religion, has anything close to the truth
> > for everyone. Only Soul has the Truth for Itself.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>   Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
> always stay connected to friends.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
>

At the eck seminars, chelas are judged by the letter on their
badges--A, B, or C. Sit in a round table discussion and listen
and watch at how chelas re-act to what one says according
to their badge letter. An "A" is usually tolerated, a "B" might
be a bit interesting, but hey the "C" has the higher and better
words! LOL! Also, notice how chelas will separate off according
to the badge designation. I was standing with a group of higher
initiates who all received hugs from this highly esteemed eckist
who when she saw me with my lower initiation badge turned her
back and ignored me. Everyone in that group was individually
greeted by her with a hug--5 out of 6 chelas, that is--except me!
Well, that was impressive for me! I wasn't the only one who
noted this shunning/avoidance of me, the lower initiate!  : ) But
talk about divine love! LOL!

Anyway, I'm sure the same old stuff will be going on at the
spring time seminar this weekend. Much ado about nothing.
Chelas running around setting up chairs and tables, microphones,
pamplets, donation boxes, etc. Little Harry will eventually show up
to give his usual boring rambling talk on Saturday night. Funny,
though, how cold it is up there in Minneapolis right now! I wonder
why the mahanta isn't conjuring up some warmer weather for
this great event? Maybe, it's because he can't. He's a fake and
has no powers!

As for Etznab's post, I had a problem with his word "apparently."
It seemed to be a pointed attempt at concluding something had
taken place when in fact it is fiction. Posting comments like that
are confusing--especially, on ESA, where seekers are looking for
truth based on facts about the history and con of eckankar and its
leaders. Etznab and others can certainly "imagine" what they want,
but I take issue when it is presented as if it actually happened.

Mish



--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
"tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
>
> Your comments, Zoey, remind me of my own thinking back before I
> became an h.i. I thought that when I reached the higher initiations,
> all would be okay and I'd have found all the answers I'd been
> seeking. I think a lot of eckists believe this will happen for them.
> So when they get the those initiations, and the novelty wears off in
> a year or so, they begin to realize they're really no different than
> they were before. This is when a lot of eckists begin to rethink
> eckankar. They begin to release the grip a bit, and begin to see a
> little more objectively for the first time in all their years in
> eckankar.
>
> I remember going to seminars and being put off by what I saw in Klemp
> and the H.I.s. Everything seemed fake and phony, superficial and
> based on status. I'd sit at the H.I. gatherings at the seminars and
> couldn't believe my eyes. People were clearly strutting about, trying
> to be oh-so-spiritual, but it all looked shallow. Klemp became boring
> and too stiff and pious. Eckankar has its own brand of
> conventionality, its own conventional wisdom.
>
> My H.I. friends, I began to realize, were incapable of thinking
> outside the eckankar box. If I phrased a thought in a way that
> wasn't "spiritually correct" according to eckankar conventional
> wisdom I'd get that raised eyebrow look. It began to seem really
> limiting. And Klemp was one of the worst examples of all that I'm
> stating here. Seminars became insufferable.
>
> The hard core true believers who won't even dare to peak beneath the
> veil are a curious bunch. These are the real cultists. Some of these
> folks are so convinced 'up is down' they think anyone who says
> otherwise is 'spinning.' Truly strange. How can people become so
> lacking in basic curiosity that they don't even dare try on a
> different point of view just to see if it at all fits? That was never
> my style, and so eckankar was always a source of limitation, which
> now I realize, looking back on it all.
>
> I am so incredibly glad I got out of that trap. You know, we use that
> word 'trap' a lot to describe eckankar, but it really is such a
> quagmire to get stuck in eckankar limbo.
>
> Kent
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
> <zoey_true@> wrote:
> >
> > it would be more accurate to surmise that it's horse shit from the
> top, all the way to the bottom.  zoey...
> >
> > Zoey Salinger <zoey_true@> wrote:    you know, i once had this
> hopeful idea that the hi - only material would eventually answer all
> my questions (when i reached that exalted status, that is).  i
> honestly half-way believed that.  for example, i thought the hi
> material might reveal the fact that eck masters weren't real, but
> were used for some stragetical spiriutal reason that lower initiates
> weren't prepared to hear.    -   but i guess it's horse shit all the
> way to the top.
> >
> >   zoey....
> >
> > tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
> >   --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Zoey Salinger
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > i left eckankar well before i ever reached HI status. what are
> the
> > HI only books all about? why can only HIs read them? is there
> > anything in them that is so revolutionary that ordinary mortals
> can't
> > handle it?
> > >
> > > curious, zoey....
> >
> >
> > The h.i. books by Klempomaniac are just as empty of anything
> > groundbreaking or meaningful as his other books. I was rather
> > surprised when I first read them. The same applies to the h.i.
> > letters. I'd say the reason they're only for H.I.'s is because HK
> > delves into h.i. problems and organizational conflicts, etc., that
> > would be unseamly and revealing if non-h.i.'s read them.
> >
> > You would laugh out loud if you ever read one of these books. Just
> > think of any other book HK has written, and you know what the H.I.
> > books are like. Nothing worth writing home about.
> >
> > The same applies to the H.I. meetings at seminars that HK leads (if
> > he still is doing this). Nothing at all that different than the
> other
> > talks he gives. But it does make the H.I.s feel really, really
> > special! They all get to hang together to see and be seen. A room
> > full of egos, no more.
> >
> > Kent
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > prometheus_973
> > wrote:
> > > Hello All,
> > > April 6-8, in Minneapolis will be more of the same
> > > as the carrots are dangled in front of the glassy eyed
> > > ECKists. Yep, there will be more promises of new
> > > insights, new understandings, unfoldment, service,
> > > surrender, and becoming a Co-worker with God,
> > > a Co-worker with SUGMAD, a Co-worker with the
> > > Mahanta, etc. There will also be talks with testimonials,
> > > and dream experiences or interventions by the
> > > Mahanta or another ECK Master. Yes, the imagination
> > > will used, as well as, embellishments to tell these
> > > Reader's Digest type of stories. There will be nothing
> > > really "new" for the individual Soul, especially, for
> > > H.I.s! Of course, there will be more trainings available
> > > and H.I.s will be encouraged to start or join monthly
> > > H.I. book discussions and H.I. Letter discussions.
> > >
> > > The Masters 4 Discourse is the last discourse and it's
> > > 15 years old (more or less). There has been nothing
> > > available to H.I.s, except, the old H.I. Only books.
> > > Even the most recent WMSL and WWMSL (Leadership
> > > book and Workbook) are about 5 years old!
> > >
> > > Klemp & Company will, probably, stress how important
> > > it is to get into or start a "new" monthly book discussion.
> > > All total these book discussions will last AT LEAST
> > > ANOTHER 5 or MORE years before H.I.s could complete
> > > these. And, these discussions will be on older material
> > > when HK's Mahanta Consciousness was less developed
> > > than it is now... and that's only Mid-Astral by now! LOL!
> > >
> > > ECKists will be spending their money on Seminar entry,
> > > Hotels, Transportation, meals, tips, and the purchase of
> > > ECK materials in the Bookroom. It will be fun to see old
> > > friends and to meet new ones, but sad as well. Some
> > > people won't be there. Have they translated, or have
> > > they left ECKANKAR? Or, maybe they just didn't have
> > > the time, money, and the desire to come to another
> > > boring ECK Seminar! Maybe they're too busy living
> > > life!
> > >
> > > What's the point in physical travel to a spiritual seminar?
> > > Can't a true Mahanta have ECK Seminars on the INNER?
> > > This Inner training, etc. is one of the promises isn't it!
> > >
> > > If H.I.'s can't have Inner ECK Seminars then what's the
> > > point! Where and when do those Higher ECK Initiations
> > > kick in and begin to work if the Mahanta can't walk the
> > > walk himself!
> > >
> > > Where does the fault lie? The Higher Initiations shouldn't
> > > be given to those with a Lower Consciousness and if they
> > > are given then whose fault is that! The ECKist receives
> > > the Pink Slip from Klemp, the LEM/Mahanta. Therefore,
> > > H.I.'s should be qualified and able to do all that is required
> > > of at least their last Initiation! A 6th should have at least
> > > mastered the requirements of the 5th Plane before becoming
> > > a 6th! The same goes for all initiations!
> > >
> > > At the Seminar or in the Local Area ECKists should just
> > > look around and observe their fellow H.I.s when these
> > > people acting on their best behaviour. What do you see
> > > and hear? Why are there lower initiates that seem higher
> > > than the High Initiates?!
> > >
> > > Closely listen to what they say and how they say it.
> > > Does this depict a person that has advanced training
> > > to become an ECK Master? And, are there non-ECKists
> > > that seem to have just as high of consciousness? Sure
> > > there are! That's just the point. The power of the ECK
> > > Initiations is all in one's mind. No one person, and
> > > especially religion, has anything close to the truth
> > > for everyone. Only Soul has the Truth for Itself.
> > >
> > > Prometheus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> > > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >   Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
> > always stay connected to friends.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Need Mail bonding?
> > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
> >
>

Etznab,
Apparently you didn't see this former post of mine. HK
gives factual evidence on ECKANKAR.org that there was
NO "SECOND" trip to INDIA in 1951 to see REBAZAR by
Twitch since there was NO "FIRST" trip in 1935 at age
27! Klemp was mistaken because he is incapable of
connecting the dots with the same information that he
supplied/approved concerning the "HISTORY" of
ECKANKAR. What sort of "Intellectual" or "Modern Prophet"
is this! LOL!

Also, did you see the R.T. (LEM)/SAT NAM (Vi Guru)
comments and quotes? Do you have a copy of Dialogues?

BTW-[more below]

prometheus wrote:
Etznab, why don't you comment on these quotes (below)
by Rebazar where it seems he is the true LEM and that Sat
Nam (not listed in HK's spiritual hierarchy) is the true inner
Master.
>
Also, that 1951 date for PT meeting Rebazar on his
"second" trip to India can't be believed since HK, unknownly,
proves that there was No "first" trip in 1935 when Twitch
was 27 years old. HK states that PT was, at the time, lying
to get into Who's Who in Kentucky and had not been out
of the country. PT - born 1908, Age 27 in 1935. Why can't
HK (the "Intellectual" and "Modern Prophet") connect the
dots?!
>
Are you turning a blind eye to these facts in order to stay
on the good side of your RESA and not get Black Listed
for the 5th Initiation? I was surprised to read your comments
on A.R.E. where you praise Klemp. Just because PT sounded
intelligent from time-to-time doesn't mean that he was or
that he wasn't a liar. As far as Klemp goes... out of the
thousands of authors out there, past and present, HK
has to be in the bottom .01% ! Most everything he writes
is based upon Twitchell's former religion Ruhani Satsang
and upon Twitchell's Westernized/New Age distortions.
And, upon letters sent to HK by ECKists (IRO's too) or the
recycled stories of other authors including the Bible!
>
Rebazar is just a fictional character that is developed over
the years as any fiction writer does with his characters. L.
Ron Hubbard did the same and Twitch long ago copied
Hubbard's organizational ideas and example as well as
the Radhasoami and Ruhani living Master concepts.
>
Anyone can sound like a Master when they steal other's
thoughts and words and make them their own.
>
Prometheus

*************************************************************
*************************************************************

P.S.
[BTW] Etznab, here's a definition from the ECKANKAR LEXICON:

"mechanical manifestations. LYING, IMAGINATION, the
EXPRESSION of NEGATIVE EMOTIONS, and UNNECESSARY
TALKING." [my caps]

This definition, by HK, kind of puts a different light on how
the LEM/Mahanta sees the level of consciousness that the
IMAGINATION is based upon doesn't it!

**************************************************************
**************************************************************
> prometheus wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > I thought this would be worth posting again.
> > Perhaps newer ECKists will be able to find some
> > copies of "Dialogues With the Master" in the ECK
> > Bookroom at the ECK Springtime Seminar and
> > check these quotes out. Apparently, the old-time
> > ECKists have just skimmed over these details
> > as they speed read along!
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
> >
> > prometheus wrote:
> > >
> > Hello All,
> > This shows that Rebazar is not only the Lower
> > Worlds 'torchbearer,' the true LEM for ECKANKAR,
> > and that SAT NAM is the true INNER MASTER.
> > Here's more proof, for ECKists, from Twitchell's
> > book "DIALOGUES WITH THE MASTER" of this fact:
> > >
> > REBAZAR TARZS (R.T.)
> >
> > [R.T.]: "While still in the lower regions of the Astral
> > plane and that of Brahm, Soul is liable always to
> > return to earth and to rebirth and death -- the
> > 'Wheel of the Eighty-four.' But when It reaches the
> > pure region of Sat Lok, which is the first plane beyond
> > Sach Khand there is no more returning to earth, except
> > as a Redeemer. Soul becomes a saint Itself; AND THE
> > MISSION OF HIS MASTER IS THROUGH, AS FAR AS THE
> > JOURNEY GOES. But Soul has yet to travel over the most
> > sublime and beautiful part of Its journey. For above
> > Sach Khand there are three other planes of inconceivable
> > splendor. HERE THE LORD OF THE FIFTH WORLD, SAT
> > NAM, TAKES OVER AND GUIDES SOUL TO THE END OF
> > ITS JOURNEY.
> > >
> > "FIRST, IT BECOMES UNITED WITH THE VERY ESSENCE OF
> > SAT NAM IN A MYSTIC SENSE, AND SO BECOMES ONE WITH
> > IT, PARTAKING OF ALL OF ITS ATTRIBUTES. IT THEN ADVANCES
> > TO THE THREE REMAINING REGIONS.
> > >
> > "Next is the ALAKH LOK... and after this is AGAM LOK...
> > Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
> > of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD, the supreme LORD
> > of all that exists. [End of quotes, my caps, pgs. 105-106]
> > >
> > > *************************************************************
> >
> > BTW- SAT LOK, SACH KHAND, ATMA LOK, FIFTH PLANE,
> > SOUL PLANE are all the same and the true home of Soul.
> > [ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg. 177, 183]
> > >
> > Also, Klemp DOES NOT mention SAT NAM in ECKANKAR's
> > Spiritual Hierarchy on page 197 of the Lexicon?!
> > >
> > It's interesting too, that Rebazar states that there are only
> > THREE REMAINING REGIONS ABOVE SACH KHAND (the 5th).
> > >
> > And, ALAKH LOK is the 6th Plane or Region, while AGAM
> > LOK is the 9th Plane or Region, and while the NAMELESS
> > region is "named" the ANAMI LOK (10th Plane) on the God
> > Worlds Chart. It, also, looks like there is a higher region
> > named SUGMAD, Ocean of Love and Mercy above the ANAMI
> > LOK. [page 232 of the ECKANKAR Lexicon]
> > >
> > Okay, I just looked it up and the ANAMI LOK is the highest
> > Region and is where SUGMAD resides (pg. 9, Lexicon). And,
> > Ocean of Love and Mercy, on page 153, states that this is
> > also the name for SUGMAD.
> > >
> > I just have two more observations. Why is the highest
> > Plane the 10th ANAMI LOK when even an 'un-cooked'
> > Living ECK Master (according to HK) starts out as a 12th
> > on the 12th? What's with that? Is REBAZAR wrong?
> > >
> > Also, isn't it strange that REBAZAR gives the 6th, 9th,
> > and 10th Planes/Regions above the 5th for Soul to
> > complete Its journey with SAT NAM?
> > >
> > This means that early on (circa 1968) Twitchell/Rebazar
> > had only EIGHT PLANES listed! So, was Twitchell lying
> > and just created a fictional REBAZAR, or was REBAZAR
> > mistaken or lying about guiding Soul to the 5th and then
> > handing It off to SAT NAM instead of to a Mahanta.
> > Remember, the Mahanta title was first mentioned by
> > Twitch in the JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes.
> > >
> > Prometheus
> >
>

Etznab,

This and all the other posts you wrote recently on this site show me
very clearly how arrogant and brazen you are.
I can even understand that the ekkies have you blacklisted ... :-))
Ingrid

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
>
>    Yes, I saw the post that you referred to. I've seen several
> on the same topic here on E.S.A.
>
>    Yes I saw the quotes as well and I do have the book
> "Dialogues With The Master".
>
>    What is it? You are trying to convince me about errors?
> Or is it that you just want to "clarify" everything that I say
> for this website so as not to give the impression that any-
> body on it agrees with anything found in Eckankar as if
> there were anything good in it?
>
>    I'm not trying to be smart with this response, but I know
> that you have an obligation to maintain the "integrity" and
> the nature of E.S.A..
>
>    Granted, I don't actually "fit in" here 100 percent and you
> do [most of you] go out of your way at times to tolerate me.
> (As long as I don't compliment Eckankar, either here or on
> A.R.E. ?)
>
>    IMO it's not always easy trying to "fit in" anywhere. Not
> without compromising one's integrity to some extent. Well,
> I don't always like to do that. Not for Eckists. Not for Non-
> Eckists.
>
>    Sometimes, but not always all the time.
>
> Etznab
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
>
>   "Dialogues With The Master" was written around 1956? About a year after
> initiation by Kirpal Singh? Kirpal Singh who (also in 1957?) took Paul
> through
> the several invisible worlds?
>
> "[....] Paul also wrote in his article 'The God Eaters,' that appeared in the
> Psychic Observer, November 1964:
>
>     Master Kirpal Singh spoke briefly of these matters when he took me
> through     the several invisible worlds in 1957. The story of this trip has
been
> recorded in
> my book "The Tiger's Fang."
>
>    Apparently, Paul Twitchell was dialoging with more than Rebazar Tarzs -
> (his name first mentioned in 1964?) in the later 1950s.
>
>    According to other sources, Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951.
>
>    Did he also meet Swami Premananda in 1951? I'm not sure.
>
>    At any rate, if only for clarification, Dialogues With The Master may have
> begun long before 1968 or 1970.
>
> Etznab
>

Etznab, the problem with this post and some others that you drop in
here from time to time is that you write as if these events actually or
even possibly happened. You know very well that we (ESA) do not give
credence to this fake history regarding PT's made up religion called
Eckankar. You embrace it because you want to do so which is your
right; however, when you post something like the above post on this
site you invite challenge. Yes, we have tolerated you for the most
part because you seem earnestly interested in finding the truth. We
see you as a seeker. However, your desire to hold onto the lies and
deceptions in eckankar by disregarding the evidence of facts/truth
is disappointing for most of us. But it is your life to do as you wish--
just don't expect that we will say "okay, Etznab, we see your point."

Mish

p.s. I do like you as an individual-- I just disagree with your perspective
as you obviously do mine.

Etznab,
You're the one that mentioned the 1951 date for
PT meeting RT. And, you've been the one working
on the ECKANKAR timeline. However, it's really too
bad that you're, also, not looking for or acknowledging
the truth when it presents itself, or when it's something
that reveals the myth and lies that ECKANKAR was
founded upon. If you want to put your head in the
sand then be my guest. Just don't come here and
expect us to overlook your evasiveness, fence
sitting, and cover-up/denial techniques.

If you really want to insure that you, eventually,
get that coveted 5th Initiation then you need to become
more low profile. Are you certain that you can't be
tracked down by the RESA police and their informers?
Or, have you shared too much information with them?
Still, maybe it's not too late if you repent now! Perhaps,
you too can atone and have a resurrection!

In other words give up your critical thinking and surrender
your common sense and do as your told without question.
Oh, and stop reading non-approved non-ECK material,
as well as, out-of-print older ECK material and anything
pre-ECKANKAR.

Forget the time-line project too! Do these things and you'll
start to fit-in with the other ECKists and will, in time, get
that long awaited pink slip. Otherwise it's pointless to continue
only half listening and half seeing. It's getting you no where
you want to be.

Prometheus



etznab wrote:
>
> Prometheus,
>
>    Yes, I saw the post that you referred to. I've seen several
> on the same topic here on E.S.A.
>
>    Yes I saw the quotes as well and I do have the book
> "Dialogues With The Master".
>
>    What is it? You are trying to convince me about errors?
> Or is it that you just want to "clarify" everything that I say
> for this website so as not to give the impression that any-
> body on it agrees with anything found in Eckankar as if
> there were anything good in it?
>
>    I'm not trying to be smart with this response, but I know
> that you have an obligation to maintain the "integrity" and
> the nature of E.S.A..
>
>    Granted, I don't actually "fit in" here 100 percent and you
> do [most of you] go out of your way at times to tolerate me.
> (As long as I don't compliment Eckankar, either here or on
> A.R.E. ?)
>
>    IMO it's not always easy trying to "fit in" anywhere. Not
> without compromising one's integrity to some extent. Well,
> I don't always like to do that. Not for Eckists. Not for Non-
> Eckists.
>
>    Sometimes, but not always all the time.
>
> Etznab
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>

Etznab,

I know you are trying to be neutral with your posts, but when
you do not qualify and then use words like "apparently" you do
suggest that you are presenting these quotes/sources as being
valid. The comment you snipped from my post to you, I stated
that the one particular post and "some others" seem to be that
way. I did not say all of your posts are.

You are of the opinion that you are being fair, but when someone
disagrees or points out something differently, you become very
defensive and accuse others of being intolerant and unfair--where
is that neutral/middle ground when you respond like this? Now, I
realize you do feel out-numbered, but I'm sure you are not the only
eckist that is a member of  this site.

It is not that I think you believe what you presented; however, the way
you did so implied that PT was actually dialoguing with RT and some
others back in 1951. Other readers on this site can be misguided when
you are not clear about the purpose of your post and also in the
disjointed way you presented your information and questions. I
actually like your questions and comments for the most part. But
I will state again this one particular post of yours was a problem
for me. It was not clear in its purpose.

I am sorry that you feel "prejudiced" against--and I appreciate that
you changed that comment in a follow-up post. I can assure you that
I am not prejudiced against you for any reason, and your being an
eckist does not effect my opinion of you other than we do view the
issues of eckankar differently. I could turn the tables here and say
that you're prejudiced against me because I'm not an eckist; however,
I know I would be wrong about you. Too bad you felt this from me.
Personally, I have never liked anyone using that type of "card" when
I have disagreed or had issues with them. Kind of a cheap shot. And
unfair IMO!

I sometimes think you have a lot of hope in eckankar becoming the
perfect religion for you--that you are shaping it in a personal way for
yourself, but have the obstacles of the outer org to deal with. I believe
your inner path is actually of your own creation as it should be. For
myself, I find that is the case for me, and that is why I don't need any
outer religion or to credit a particular "master" or group for that. It is
all evolving within me, as it is with you and everyone--eckists and
non-eckists alike. My problem with any religion is that I have found
them more hindering than helpful.

But anyway good luck in your continuing research. As I said I don't
mind your questions. I have enjoyed many of your posts.

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/6/07 12:27:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
> mishmisha9@... writes:
>
>
> > Etznab, the problem with this post and some others that you drop in
> > here from time to time is that you write as if these events actually or
> > even possibly happened.
>
>    This is where you are wrong to assume that every time I give a copy
> or illustration of events that I believe them to be true. I was not arguing
> to prove that Paul Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951. Nor did I state
> that I believed that to be true. In fact, it wasn't even myself who came
> up with that story in the first place. But since I mentioned it in a post
> it is automatically assumed that I believe it to be fact? Because I am
> an Eckist I have to believe everything written by Eckists? Nada!
>
>    It is you who assume (in your imagination) what I believe. And since
> I'm an Eckist you assume I believe in everything "Eckankar" recorded
> history says? As if it were actual fact? NOT! There is a word for this
> and it is called prejudice.
>
>   The irony about all of this is that I was looking in a direction opposite
> to where you seem to have claimed I was looking.
>
>    I was not focussed on the story [myth, whatever] of Rebazar Tarzs,
> but on Kirpal Singh.
>
>    You said I sometimes write as if the events actually happened or
> could possibly be true? So when I take a portion of illustrated history
> and illustrate it, ask questions about it, wonder if it were or were not
> true, ask what would happen if it were vs. if it were not true in order
> to research a subject, this means I am stating facts that I believe to
> be true?
>
>    I find it more along the lines of speculation and reviewing different
> sets of views - and looking for what makes the most sense.
>
> Etznab
>
>
>
> Etznab
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>

Etznab,

I will check out that link later, but your post on EckankarTruth
might have just fallen through the cracks or wasn't approved
because Sharon hasn't been keeping up with her site recently.
She's pretty tolerant on posts for the most part IMO. You might
try re-sending it there. Yeah, I'm probably "jumping to conclusions"
but don't we all do this constantly--speculating???  When sorting
out the events of the day?  You seem to question/speculate that
your post was not accepted because you are an eckist. : )

btw, the eck chat sites boot a lot of non-eckists when they post
comments that question their views. Talk about being intolerant.
But I sure you know this.

Mish

p.s. If you want to continue this discussion, let's do this privately.
I'm sure we can sort it out. Something like--I'm not prejudiced
and you're not either!  : ) I can agree to that!




--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
etznab@... wrote:
>
> Mish,
>
>    "Jumping to conclusions" could have been used in place of the
> word prejudice that I used. It might have appeared less critical, but
> it wasn't the one I used. Sorry if it apeared too extreme.
>
>    Pre-judging a person is what I believe most [if not] everybody does
> from time to time. Myself included.
>
>    Just this year the states of Virginia and North Carolina apologized
> for slavery - 400 years after the fact! Slavery was a form of judging
> people based on the color of their skin.
>
>    If a person bore the mark of being "colored" then they could be judged
> for that alone - in spite of what or who they actually were.
>
>    It was my opinion that when I am judged simply for weasring the mark
> of an Eckist, that it is not entirely fair to me. This is my opinion.
>
>    Here is the link I sent to (I believe it was) to EckankarTruth. It was not
> accepted:
>
> http://www.lyricsbox.com/frozen-ghost-lyrics-should-i-see-6m4j5mv.html
>
>    The context in which it was sent was in support of another post that I
> read there. But why wasn't it posted? Because it was submitted by an
> Eckist? I'm not sure why it wasn't OK to post this.
>
> Etznab
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
etznab@... wrote:
>
> Mish,
>
>    "Jumping to conclusions" could have been used in place of the
> word prejudice that I used. It might have appeared less critical, but
> it wasn't the one I used. Sorry if it apeared too extreme.
>
>    Pre-judging a person is what I believe most [if not] everybody does
> from time to time. Myself included.
>
>    Just this year the states of Virginia and North Carolina apologized
> for slavery - 400 years after the fact! Slavery was a form of judging
> people based on the color of their skin.
>
>    If a person bore the mark of being "colored" then they could be judged
> for that alone - in spite of what or who they actually were.
>
>    It was my opinion that when I am judged simply for weasring the mark
> of an Eckist, that it is not entirely fair to me. This is my opinion.
>
>    Here is the link I sent to (I believe it was) to EckankarTruth. It was not
> accepted:
>
> http://www.lyricsbox.com/frozen-ghost-lyrics-should-i-see-6m4j5mv.html
>
>    The context in which it was sent was in support of another post that I
> read there. But why wasn't it posted? Because it was submitted by an
> Eckist? I'm not sure why it wasn't OK to post this.
>
> Etznab
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's free at
> http://www.aol.com.
>

******************************************************

Etznab, I took a look at your Frozen Ghost lyrics and will post it
here for all to read since it didn't go up on that other site and
you are wondering if it was not accepted because you are an
eckist. Maybe you can post it over on the eck chat sites, HuChat
and ChelaChat, etc.? Maybe they can resonate with it. LOL!


Here's the song and lyrics:

Should I See
by Frozen Ghost

album:

cover my eyes and ears
til it all dissapears
how can you judge for me
what i should hear and see
you take away freedom of choice
take away the right to voice
my beliefs and and all my views
you take away my right to choose

chorus:
(na na na na na naaaah...)
show me what should i see
(na na na na na naaaah...)
make my mind up for me
(na na na na na naaaah...)
show me what should i see
(na na na na na naaaah...)
what should i see

how can you censor my thought
what is right what is not
how is it you decide
what i should feel inside
quoting god as you discuss
what is right and wrong for us
you inundate us with your views
you take away my right to choose

(repeat chorus)

you take away freedom of choice
you take away my right to voice
my beliefs and all my views
you take away my right to choose

(repeat chorus )

...make my mind up for me
show me what should i see

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
<mishmisha9@...> wrote:
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
> etznab@ wrote:
> >
> > Mish,
> >
> >    "Jumping to conclusions" could have been used in place of the
> > word prejudice that I used. It might have appeared less critical,
but
> > it wasn't the one I used. Sorry if it apeared too extreme.
> >
> >    Pre-judging a person is what I believe most [if not] everybody
does
> > from time to time. Myself included.
> >
> >    Just this year the states of Virginia and North Carolina
apologized
> > for slavery - 400 years after the fact! Slavery was a form of
judging
> > people based on the color of their skin.
> >
> >    If a person bore the mark of being "colored" then they could
be judged
> > for that alone - in spite of what or who they actually were.
> >
> >    It was my opinion that when I am judged simply for weasring
the mark
> > of an Eckist, that it is not entirely fair to me. This is my
opinion.
> >
> >    Here is the link I sent to (I believe it was) to
EckankarTruth. It was not
> > accepted:
> >
> > http://www.lyricsbox.com/frozen-ghost-lyrics-should-i-see-
6m4j5mv.html
> >
> >    The context in which it was sent was in support of another
post that I
> > read there. But why wasn't it posted? Because it was submitted by
an
> > Eckist? I'm not sure why it wasn't OK to post this.
> >
> > Etznab
> >
> >
> > **************************************
> >  See what's free at
> > http://www.aol.com.
> >
>
> ******************************************************
>
> Etznab, I took a look at your Frozen Ghost lyrics and will post it
> here for all to read since it didn't go up on that other site and
> you are wondering if it was not accepted because you are an
> eckist. Maybe you can post it over on the eck chat sites, HuChat
> and ChelaChat, etc.? Maybe they can resonate with it. LOL!
>
>
> Here's the song and lyrics:
>
> Should I See
> by Frozen Ghost
>
> album:
>
> cover my eyes and ears
> til it all dissapears
> how can you judge for me
> what i should hear and see
> you take away freedom of choice
> take away the right to voice
> my beliefs and and all my views
> you take away my right to choose
>
> chorus:
> (na na na na na naaaah...)
> show me what should i see
> (na na na na na naaaah...)
> make my mind up for me
> (na na na na na naaaah...)
> show me what should i see
> (na na na na na naaaah...)
> what should i see
>
> how can you censor my thought
> what is right what is not
> how is it you decide
> what i should feel inside
> quoting god as you discuss
> what is right and wrong for us
> you inundate us with your views
> you take away my right to choose
>
> (repeat chorus)
>
> you take away freedom of choice
> you take away my right to voice
> my beliefs and all my views
> you take away my right to choose
>
> (repeat chorus )
>
> ...make my mind up for me
> show me what should i see
>


Interesting lyrics Etznab wanted us all to read. Frankly, I can
understand why Sharon might have deleted this message. I like Etznab
(usually) and I like Etznab's apparent, but at times wavering,
independence. I think the ex-eckankar groups have been exceedingly
tolerant of his contrarian posts. The fact that he's still posting
here does indicate tolerance.

But there is a point in which asking for tolerance of another's
intolerance crosses over to become a form of sophistry (ala Doug
Marman).

It is similar to the kind of sleight of hand found so often in
eckankar members. First Eckankar claims to be the only true path to
God, and PT does, in fact, denigrate all other philosophies and
religions (see Letter to a Chela, SKS, Satsang 3, among many other
examples) and when this rather extreme and cultic intolerance is
pointed out by ex-members, they are accused, in turn, of being
intolerant (as occurs regularly on A.R.E.). Why should Sharon fall
for such sophistry?

Not to pick on ETznab, and as I said, Etznab has been shown a high
degree of tolerance considering some of his statements. But that
people on an Ex-eckankar site would have some criticisms should be no
surprise, nor is pointing out intolerance in eckankar in itself
intolerant.

On the other hand, eckankar's intolerance of other points of view is
definitely fittingly labeled as such. Lets get real here. From a
point of view of logic (not a taboo word here as it is in eckankar),
it could be compared to a racist wanting to express occasional little
racist comments in an African-American chat group, and then
complaining of intolerance when people simply respond, but yet don't
kick out the racist, because they think the racist is struggling with
his racism and therefore want to be understanding.

(To Etznab: Think about this--people here have been very tolerant of
your posts, and they should be commended for that tolerance,
considering the purpose of this group).

This spin by eckists is getting very old. They are master spinners,
all following in the footsteps of the master spinner, PT. And Doug
Marman has perfected the art of spin, taking it to the point of being
ridiculous. Spin is an eckankar cultural meme that has become almost
subconscious behavior. I recommend that the eckankar hallmark spin be
exposed whenever it is attempted. And etznab is spinning here in the
same manner as other eckists spin. He has little right to ask for
even more lattitude than already given.

I didn't mean this to sound harsh, and I had only wanted to make a
small, short, understanding comment, but when I think of the absurd
sophistry constantly coming from eckankar and its cultic followers, I
find myself shaking my head in dismay.

Tolerance of people is a highly desirable quality. But let's not
tolerate, in silence, the eckankar spin.

Kent