Hi Etznab,
It is interesting that Klemp isn't clear on this
970th LEM detail. That's probably because PT
made it all up and forgot what he had previously
written. However, if ECKists just connect the dots
they can see the inconsistencies.

[R.T.]: "Remember the glance I gave you in the home
of Sudar Singh, in Allahabad that evening before the
contemplation started?" [Dialogues With the Master,
pg.77]

"Sudar Singh. The Living ECK Master who lived in
Allahabad, India, and taught Peddar Zaskq, also
known as Paul Twitchell." [ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg.201]

"Rebazar Tarzs. The torchbearer of ECKANKAR in the
lower worlds; the spiritual teacher of many ECK Masters
including Peddar Zaskq, or Paul Twitchell, to whom he
handed the Rod of ECK Power in 1965..." [ECKANKAR
Lexicon, pg. 173]

"Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills
of the Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his
first trip to India in 1935, [at age 27] he met Sudar
Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual
named Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all."
[HK: Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons]
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

{Recall that HK states that at age 27 (1935) Paul hadn't done
much in his life and hadn't traveled too far from home while
'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts' to get into Who's Who in
Kentucky.}

"Paul sent the manuscript of The Tiger's Fang to Kirpal
Singh in India, which triggered a series of letters back and
forth. It caused a very disagreeable situation when Paul
wanted the manuscript back later. Paul had admired Kirpal
Singh for a long time but then they had this little falling out.
Perhaps they worked it out later." [HK: Struggle for Mastership]
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

"Secondly, when Kirpal Singh found out about Paul doing
Soul Travel workshops, he wrote a letter to the Parapsychology
Foundation and informed them that Paul's works were a lot
like his own. But Kirpal Singh never mentioned that he, too,
had picked them up from someone before him."

ME: Well, so much for the lineage of ECK Masters to keep
the ECK Teachings pure! LOL!

"In a way, he was trying to possess truth. But truth builds
upon itself. Kirpal Singh had gathered it from other groups
... Paul had the ability to work as the Inner Master. Kirpal
Singh also did to his chelas, and there are many other teachers
who can do the same thing." [HK: Beginnings of ECKANKAR]
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

It's interesting that Sudar Singh is not listed with the other
ECK Masters in the Shariyat 1&2, pg.491, although, there
are some strange ones mentioned. Why can't Klemp "know"
of a former LEM/Mahanta from 1965 when he seems to be
so informed about those from hundreds and thousands of
years ago? Maybe because it's all a scam? I know so!

Here's something a little strange from page 418 of the
Shariyat Books 1&2:

"Only the Godman, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
has attained this position called the Baba, or Babpu, of
his people. But even he does not go by this title because
he realizes that all men are equal and should not look
upon one another as superior, and because he is the
ECK in the human form and, therefore, subject to the laws
of the world."

Baba or Babpu? What's that about! Another funny
thing is that this other statement is true for all Souls
because we are, also, the ECK or SPIRIT in human
form! No revelation or anything new here!

Okay, one more quote from page 151 of the Shariyat
Books 1&2:

"It has been stated that the Living ECK Master can release
Souls from the lower Astral Planes. This is also true of
those who have reached the Ninth Plane of God under
the Living ECK Master. These initiates of the Ninth Circle
are privileged to name the Souls they want released, making
it possible to unchain a dependent relative or anyone with
whom they have close love ties."

So how many Ninths has Klemp confirmed on the outer?
I guess there's still HOPE isn't there! <smile>

Prometheus




etznab wrote:
>
prometheus writes:
>
> <snip>
> > However, SUDAR SINGH
> > (a.k.a. Kirpal Singh) was suppose to have been the 970th LEM and
> > was the one who PT claims to have initially instructed him and then
> > passed him (PT) over to RT (after one year) for initiation into ECK.
> <snip>
>
>    I wonder if there is anything in writing about the number 970 and the
> "next master" being either Sudar Singh or Kirpal Singh - according to
> any known path of masters.
>
>    Did the "path" that Kirpal Singh followed have a documented history
> of nine-hundred-and-something masters?
>
>    I'm not giving any opinion on facts either way, but the number 970
> is what I am curious about, and if there is another path that claimed
> or claims to have a line of masters that long (besides Eckankar or
> Eckankar "off-shoot" paths).
>
>    My hunch for now is that I simply don't know. Does anybody else?
> In other words, is there more information on this?
>
> Etznab
>
>
>
>
>
> **************************************
>  AOL now offers free email to everyone.
>  Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
>

Hello All,
Here's more info that I found on Sudar Singh and
Rebazar from The Wisdom Notes, Sept. 1, 1969.

PT: "I learned this when given the initiation to the
ECK by Rebazar Tarzs many years ago. After studying
under Sudar Singh for a year, I wandered about for
some time studying under different teachers but
found no one worthy of the works of Eck and returned
to Sudar Singh much more practical than before. It
was he who sent me to Rebazar Tarzs for the initiation
into ECKANKAR."

Since Sudar Singh is listed in the ECKANKAR Lexicon
as a LEM why then didn't he initiate and instruct Twit?
Probably because Sudar Singh was really Kirpal Singh
(a.k.a. Rebazar Tarzs) of Ruhani Satsang whom PT had
studied under from 1955-1965 and who PT wrote of
as his Master in The Tiger's Fang (Paul later changed his
name). Even Doug Marman confirms that Kirpal didn't
return The Tiger's Fang manuscript to PT until 1966!
And, Kirpal, also, didn't like Twitchell taking
"artistic license" (exaggerating and twisting facts) in
the book and involving him when he (Kirpal) had no
knowledge of those events or inner meetings Paul was
describing!

Prometheus


prometheus wrote:
>
> Hi Etznab,
> It is interesting that Klemp isn't clear on this
> 970th LEM detail. That's probably because PT
> made it all up and forgot what he had previously
> written. However, if ECKists just connect the dots
> they can see the inconsistencies.
>
> [R.T.]: "Remember the glance I gave you in the home
> of Sudar Singh, in Allahabad that evening before the
> contemplation started?" [Dialogues With the Master,
> pg.77]
>
> "Sudar Singh. The Living ECK Master who lived in
> Allahabad, India, and taught Peddar Zaskq, also
> known as Paul Twitchell." [ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg.201]
>
> "Rebazar Tarzs. The torchbearer of ECKANKAR in the
> lower worlds; the spiritual teacher of many ECK Masters
> including Peddar Zaskq, or Paul Twitchell, to whom he
> handed the Rod of ECK Power in 1965..." [ECKANKAR
> Lexicon, pg. 173]
>
> "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills
> of the Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his
> first trip to India in 1935, [at age 27] he met Sudar
> Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
> Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual
> named Sundar Singh, who is not the same person at all."
> [HK: Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons]
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
>
> {Recall that HK states that at age 27 (1935) Paul hadn't done
> much in his life and hadn't traveled too far from home while
> 'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts' to get into Who's Who in
> Kentucky.}
>
> "Paul sent the manuscript of The Tiger's Fang to Kirpal
> Singh in India, which triggered a series of letters back and
> forth. It caused a very disagreeable situation when Paul
> wanted the manuscript back later. Paul had admired Kirpal
> Singh for a long time but then they had this little falling out.
> Perhaps they worked it out later." [HK: Struggle for Mastership]
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
>
> "Secondly, when Kirpal Singh found out about Paul doing
> Soul Travel workshops, he wrote a letter to the Parapsychology
> Foundation and informed them that Paul's works were a lot
> like his own. But Kirpal Singh never mentioned that he, too,
> had picked them up from someone before him."
>
> ME: Well, so much for the lineage of ECK Masters to keep
> the ECK Teachings pure! LOL!
>
> "In a way, he was trying to possess truth. But truth builds
> upon itself. Kirpal Singh had gathered it from other groups
> ... Paul had the ability to work as the Inner Master. Kirpal
> Singh also did to his chelas, and there are many other teachers
> who can do the same thing." [HK: Beginnings of ECKANKAR]
> http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
>
> It's interesting that Sudar Singh is not listed with the other
> ECK Masters in the Shariyat 1&2, pg.491, although, there
> are some strange ones mentioned. Why can't Klemp "know"
> of a former LEM/Mahanta from 1965 when he seems to be
> so informed about those from hundreds and thousands of
> years ago? Maybe because it's all a scam? I know so!
>
> Here's something a little strange from page 418 of the
> Shariyat Books 1&2:
>
> "Only the Godman, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master
> has attained this position called the Baba, or Babpu, of
> his people. But even he does not go by this title because
> he realizes that all men are equal and should not look
> upon one another as superior, and because he is the
> ECK in the human form and, therefore, subject to the laws
> of the world."
>
> Baba or Babpu? What's that about! Another funny
> thing is that this other statement is true for all Souls
> because we are, also, the ECK or SPIRIT in human
> form! No revelation or anything new here!
>
> Okay, one more quote from page 151 of the Shariyat
> Books 1&2:
>
> "It has been stated that the Living ECK Master can release
> Souls from the lower Astral Planes. This is also true of
> those who have reached the Ninth Plane of God under
> the Living ECK Master. These initiates of the Ninth Circle
> are privileged to name the Souls they want released, making
> it possible to unchain a dependent relative or anyone with
> whom they have close love ties."
>
> So how many Ninths has Klemp confirmed on the outer?
> I guess there's still HOPE isn't there! <smile>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
> etznab wrote:
> >
> prometheus writes:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > However, SUDAR SINGH
> > > (a.k.a. Kirpal Singh) was suppose to have been the 970th LEM and
> > > was the one who PT claims to have initially instructed him and then
> > > passed him (PT) over to RT (after one year) for initiation into ECK.
> > <snip>
> >
> >    I wonder if there is anything in writing about the number 970 and the
> > "next master" being either Sudar Singh or Kirpal Singh - according to
> > any known path of masters.
> >
> >    Did the "path" that Kirpal Singh followed have a documented history
> > of nine-hundred-and-something masters?
> >
> >    I'm not giving any opinion on facts either way, but the number 970
> > is what I am curious about, and if there is another path that claimed
> > or claims to have a line of masters that long (besides Eckankar or
> > Eckankar "off-shoot" paths).
> >
> >    My hunch for now is that I simply don't know. Does anybody else?
> > In other words, is there more information on this?
> >
> > Etznab
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **************************************
> >  AOL now offers free email to everyone.
> >  Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
> >
>

Hi Chris, Etznab, and All,
I will, also, have to agree that Twitchell just
made it all up as he went along. This fakery,
of course, needed to be tweaked from time-
to-time. BTW-The copyright for The Tiger's
Fang is 1967 and for Dialogues With the Master
it's 1970. And, only in later chapters of "Dialogues"
does PT start to use the term "Mahanta" which
was first introduced in the Jan. 1, 1969 monthly
Wisdom Notes.

Also, as Klemp points out in the PT info on
ECKANKAR.org PT was 27 years old in 1935
(born 10/22/1908) and was 'exaggerating'
and 'twisting facts' to get into Who's Who
in Kentucky and had never left the U.S. until
he joined the Navy in 1942. Yet, PT (a proven
liar) supposedly met Sudar on his first trip to
India in 1935, and Rebazar on his second trip
to India in 1951. However, if PT was initiated
by Rebazar in 1951 why did Kirpal Singh
initiate Paul on his first trip to the U.S. in 1955!
Remember too that Twit followed Kirpal for
10 years and that Klemp even states that Kirpal
had been sent The Tiger's Fang manuscript
which Kirpal returned to Twitchell in 1966 and
that it was published in 1967.

Actually, other than some limited travel while
in the Navy Twitchell never made it to England
(let alone India) until 1969 when he traveled
there with Gail.

Prometheus



Chris wrote:
>
> It wasn't any year dude...the guy made it all up.
>
> cmon' post this stuff on ARE where people actually want to talk about
> this...
>
> don't you get it, this group is for people who're DONE with Eckankar..??
>
>
>
>
> On 3/22/07, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
> >
> >   Prometheus,
> >
> >    Thank you for the response that appeared to mention Rebazar
> > Tarzs, Sudar Singh, and Paul Twitchell together (in Sudar Singh's
> > house).
> >
> >    I wonder what year that was, since (according to some reports)
> > Dialogiues With The Master was "written" in the 50's - round about
> > the time Paul Twitchell was corresponding with Kirpal Singh.
> >
> >    Did Paul know three masters in the 1950s? Kirpal Singh, Sudar
> > Singh, and Rebazar Tarzs? I can't be sure. Especially since the
> > names of these three have a habit of changing over time when the
> > newer writings of Paul Twitchell are compared with the old. And
> > then there are the examples where Rebazar's (and other Master's)
> > words are similar, if not identical, to the authors of published books
> > that Paul Twitchell read.
> >
> >    At any rate, thanks for the Dialogue's With The Master trivia.
> >
> > Etznab
> >
> >
> > Etznab
> >
> >
> > **************************************
> > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> > from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Chris  Olds ~
> Antelope Valley Network Services ~ Green Earth Hosting ~ 661-264-4087
>
> http://www.avnetservices.com ~ http://www.greenearthosting.com
>

Hey, do you think he's talking about us? LOL!

Chela Chat "Detractor" Post (recently posted):

"Why is it that detractors read from books then quote
only what they FEEL is meant??
?
Notice the word FEEL. ?
?
FEEL is basically: ?
1) Physical - physical areas of expression?
2) Astral - emotional areas of expression?
?
Because they are 'against' something they are incapable
of going beyond these two aspects (physical and emotional).
They have created this ceiling by their limitations of expression.
Their own negative expression do limit and that limitation is
to the Lower Astral only.?
?
No matter what they quote nor no matter what they do they
will only see what they want to see. When one is limited to the
Lower Astral what they see is only a representation of the
original and taken out of context.?
?
For example:?
The Path of the Masters: ?
?
1) Those from the Lower Astral viewpoint this book is a treasure ?
trove.?
?
2) Those who view the book from a Higher Viewpoint, above the
5th Plane, this book is nothing but antiquated garbage. Now from
the above the 5th viewpoint one learns not to criticize even if a book
is an antiquated piece of garbage as they have better things to do
then waste time with such an excursion into such a book that,
because it is out of date, the book doesn't provide anything
worthwhile so why read it.?
?
To criticise the LEMs Paul Twitchell; Dap Ren; Harold Klemp is simple ?
for the ignorant because they haven't yet reached such an area of ?
consciousness. ?
?
In the magazine Occult (1978) there was articles on many areas.
They got to Eckankar and their answer was basically: 'We are unable
to comment on Eckankar because we have not experienced Eckankar'.?
?
This is a very wise move on the behalf of individuals who have ?
maintained their integrity.?
?
Speaking of the same magazine, Occult, they did mentioned
something else very relevant here:?
?
'The Beatles went to Paul Twitchell and asked Paul if he would
become their guru. Paul refused because of the Beatle's involvement
with illegal drugs.?
?
The Beatles then went to the maharishi (TM) and ask him and the ?
maharishi said 'of course.?
?
Paul could have made millions but he refused and took a Path that is ?
clear of producing illusions.'?
?
Criticism basically means the lack of development. This lack keeps ?
one in the Lower Astral, only.?
?
The dissentors of Eckankar are paupers looking for ways to prove ?
themselves. ?
?
Eckankar is not looking for those who try to prove something or for ?
those who want to wallow in the muck of the Lower Astral.?
?
Eckankar is looking for those who are willing to shed their Lower ?
Selves and go an adventure that is very difficult indeed. This ?
difficult adventure, if willing, will lead the chela, in Eckankar, to ?
areas of life that demand the chela to shed the baggage so that
each step Higher will become easier (as each piece of that baggage
is let go of). One wrong step and if the baggage is hung onto will
only drag the chela downwards. ?
?
These dissentors have not truly experienced Eckankar and will never ?
experience Eckankar because the baggage they carry will prevent the ?
dissentors from seeing the actual truth. The dissentors will only see ?
what they want to see which is information from the Lower Astral a ?
place of grandiose illusions and delusions." (end of CC post)

*******************************************************************

Twitchell took word-for-word passages and all of the concepts
mentioned in "The Path of the Masters" and put these in the
Shariyats (The Holy Books) that the eckankar teachings are based
upon! Therefore, if "The Path of the Masters" is "Lower Astral" then
Eckankar is too! LOL!

Also, when this eckist states that "The Path of the Masters" is "nothing
but antiquated garbage," isn't he also confirming what we have been
saying about eckankar--that eckankar is antiquated garbage? LOL!

He whines that the detractors "see . . . only a representation of the
original and (it is) taken out of context," --doesn't eckankar encourage
eckists to do this all the time by suggesting that they randomly open
  a page in the Shariyat to find an answer to a problem? Isn't it
encouraged to read the Shariyat in bits and pieces which is reading
it out of context? Also, the eckist on HuChat who posts quotes daily
from HK's writings is doing the same thing. She is taking the sidebar
quotes and placing them out of context on a daily basis. Eckists who
do not bother to read the books in their entirety are reading these
quotes out of context.

BTW--who is this Dap Ren guy this eckist is mentioning?

Anyway, the illogical thoughts of this eckist continue to prove how
out of balance many eckists are--logic fails them time after time!
And they assume wrongly why former members  have left the
path of eckankar.

Mish



?

Hello all,

Elizabeth...well said...here here...rah rah.

>Some might even say "mythical? characters.

It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant parts
of someones answer...and just has more questions.  It's almost
funny...if there weren't so many on this group who've accepted the
FACT, that it's all Mythical. It might be funny, but to me?

It's highly inappropriate for you Mr. Etznab..to be posting this shit
to an Eckankar Survivors List...Get it?

There are people here who are trying to heal from terrible damage done
to them and their lives by these wacko Eckists.

you catching any of this?...or are you just ignoring it and
formulating more questions about mythical characters that Paul
Twitchell ripped off or made up himself. I wish you could see how
insipid and ignorant you are...yeah...look closely at the word
"ignorant", see any words in there that mean anything to you?  Like
ignore.  Ignore everyone else except yourself and your "spiritual
path", think only of yourself.

wake up,






--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ewickings"
<ewickings@...> wrote:
>
> Etznab wrote:    What is wrong with this picture? Anything?
>
> "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century
> Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
> was the living ECK Master of his times."
>
> [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
> printing 1983, p. 195] - [Original copyright 1971]
>
> "The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread
> ECK to Europe and other places on the globe. He lived into his
> nineties before passing away."
>
> [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
> printing 1983, p. 195]
>
> "Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during
> the latter part of the nineteenth century."
>
> [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by
> Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]
>
> "Following him [Sudar Singh] is Peddar Zaskq ... He became the
> Mahanta, the living ECK Master after studying under Rebazar
> Tarzs."
>
> [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
> printing 1983, p. 195]
>
> *********
>
>      Funny though that there is not any "historical records" of Rebazar
> Tarzs or Sudar Singh - at least not "historical" in the same sense as
> Kirpal Singh. Ironic if his name [Kirpal Singh] was replaced by "non-
> historical" characters. Some might even say "mythical? characters.
>
>    Personally, I myself would like to know if this is in fact the case.
> At least so that I could put all of these characters into better
context.
>
> Etznab
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> Etznab what I find to be wrong with "This Picture" is that each of these
> quotes from the eck books are from those that HK started editing.
Why not
> get your hands on first copies of the books Paul wrote, so you can
see how
> it was changed over the years?  As Paul saw fit, he changed the names of
> Masters...   As HK sees fit, he changes the eck teachings to cover
up the
> truth!  I would also suspect HK's eck Lawyer/s have counseled him on the
> repercussions if he were to come completely clean and spill his
guts.  Can
> you just imagine how many eckies would be jumping off bridges to end
their
> lives because they were duped for so long!?
>
> One can only assume how things in Oregon went when Darwin moved his
office
> there and tried to set up his eckankar, later ATOM.  Now those
chelas there
> must be real looney birds what with all the confusion that they
experienced
> first hand!  ;-)  And how many of them were duped by Darwin from
that area,
> before they realized he was a black magician who initiated HK......  And
> then in the end didn't Darwin fight for the rod...  Sounds like a
Star Wars
> movie.  Oh wait, didn't Darwin compare eckankar to it?  May the force be
> with you.....   LOL
>
> Hey here is an idea, why not ask Darwin for the original info on PT?  He
> claims to have PT's best interest at heart.  Whereas HK just wants
to cover
> it up and make eckankrap his Christian type religion!  :-O
>
> Elizabeth
>

Hi Chris,
I have to agree that this time-line discussion is
much ado about nothing! Twitchell is a known
plagiarist and liar and Marman is as reliable of
a source as Wikipedia. LOL!

However, some of the information given by Klemp
on ECKANKAR.org like with PT's age of 27, in 1935,
when Twitch was, supposedly, meeting LEM Sudar
Singh in India (on PT's first visit) while at the same
time 'exaggerating' and 'twisting facts' to get into
"Who's Who in Kentucky" speaks volumns as to PT's
truthiness and creditability on any subject, at any
time, and on any level.

Prometheus



"spaceportcomputers" wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> Elizabeth...well said...here here...rah rah.
>
> >Some might even say "mythical? characters.
>
> It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant parts
> of someones answer...and just has more questions.  It's almost
> funny...if there weren't so many on this group who've accepted the
> FACT, that it's all Mythical. It might be funny, but to me?
>
> It's highly inappropriate for you Mr. Etznab..to be posting this shit
> to an Eckankar Survivors List...Get it?
>
> There are people here who are trying to heal from terrible damage done
> to them and their lives by these wacko Eckists.
>
> you catching any of this?...or are you just ignoring it and
> formulating more questions about mythical characters that Paul
> Twitchell ripped off or made up himself. I wish you could see how
> insipid and ignorant you are...yeah...look closely at the word
> "ignorant", see any words in there that mean anything to you?  Like
> ignore.  Ignore everyone else except yourself and your "spiritual
> path", think only of yourself.
>
> wake up,
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ewickings"
> <ewickings@> wrote:
> >
> > Etznab wrote:    What is wrong with this picture? Anything?
> >
> > "During the middle and later part of the nineteenth century
> > Yu Rangta, a Chinese Master, lived in the Gobi Desert and
> > was the living ECK Master of his times."
> >
> > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
> > printing 1983, p. 195] - [Original copyright 1971]
> >
> > "The next Master was Sudar Singh of Allahabad who spread
> > ECK to Europe and other places on the globe. He lived into his
> > nineties before passing away."
> >
> > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
> > printing 1983, p. 195]
> >
> > "Tamaqui. tah-MAH-kee. A minor ECK Master in Germany during
> > the latter part of the nineteenth century."
> >
> > [Based on: A Cosmic Sea of Words - The Eckankar Lexicon, by
> > Harold Klemp (Copyright 1998), p. 205]
> >
> > "Following him [Sudar Singh] is Peddar Zaskq ... He became the
> > Mahanta, the living ECK Master after studying under Rebazar
> > Tarzs."
> >
> > [Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th
> > printing 1983, p. 195]
> >
> > *********
> >
> >      Funny though that there is not any "historical records" of Rebazar
> > Tarzs or Sudar Singh - at least not "historical" in the same sense as
> > Kirpal Singh. Ironic if his name [Kirpal Singh] was replaced by "non-
> > historical" characters. Some might even say "mythical? characters.
> >
> >    Personally, I myself would like to know if this is in fact the case.
> > At least so that I could put all of these characters into better
> context.
> >
> > Etznab
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++
> >
> >
> > Etznab what I find to be wrong with "This Picture" is that each of these
> > quotes from the eck books are from those that HK started editing.
> Why not
> > get your hands on first copies of the books Paul wrote, so you can
> see how
> > it was changed over the years?  As Paul saw fit, he changed the names of
> > Masters...   As HK sees fit, he changes the eck teachings to cover
> up the
> > truth!  I would also suspect HK's eck Lawyer/s have counseled him on the
> > repercussions if he were to come completely clean and spill his
> guts.  Can
> > you just imagine how many eckies would be jumping off bridges to end
> their
> > lives because they were duped for so long!?
> >
> > One can only assume how things in Oregon went when Darwin moved his
> office
> > there and tried to set up his eckankar, later ATOM.  Now those
> chelas there
> > must be real looney birds what with all the confusion that they
> experienced
> > first hand!  ;-)  And how many of them were duped by Darwin from
> that area,
> > before they realized he was a black magician who initiated HK......  And
> > then in the end didn't Darwin fight for the rod...  Sounds like a
> Star Wars
> > movie.  Oh wait, didn't Darwin compare eckankar to it?  May the force be
> > with you.....   LOL
> >
> > Hey here is an idea, why not ask Darwin for the original info on PT?  He
> > claims to have PT's best interest at heart.  Whereas HK just wants
> to cover
> > it up and make eckankrap his Christian type religion!  :-O
> >
> > Elizabeth
> >
>

Hi there! :-)

--- In
EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "spaceportcomputers"
<greenearthosting@...> wrote:
---snip---
> It is pretty typical how Mr. Etznab keeps ignoring the relevant
>parts
> of someones answer...and just has more questions.  It's almost
> funny...if there weren't so many on this group who've accepted the
> FACT, that it's all Mythical. It might be funny, but to me?
>
> It's highly inappropriate for you Mr. Etznab..to be posting this
>shit
> to an Eckankar Survivors List...Get it?

*** No, I don't think so. :-)) Etznab keeps posting on ESA, in full
awareness that this is an ex-eckists list. Well, I think he just
doesn't want to learn - he has been getting on and on and on since I
don't know how many years now - I think since the truth seeker site
of Ford Johnson opened. When was this? 2003? So you might say - no,
it's unlikely that Etznab will ever get it. He will always be there,
in a limbo - half inside, and half outside of eckankar. Or, as I have
been suspecting for a while now - he might have this agenda to spam
ESA with posts in order to get his ekkie twist on it?? Who knows??
>
> There are people here who are trying to heal from terrible damage
>done
> to them and their lives by these wacko Eckists.
>
> you catching any of this?...or are you just ignoring it and
> formulating more questions about mythical characters that Paul
> Twitchell ripped off or made up himself.

*** No, not catching any of it, I think. :-) Just ignoring!
---snip---

Well, as the oldtimers on this list know well,sometimes Etznab is
pretty tough on my nerves - but well, maybe it's me that isn't
getting any of this! LOL!
Ingrid

Hi All,
It's apparant that this Chela-Chat ECKist hasn't read
"The Path of the Masters." I think that I'll give some
quotes to show that Twitchell used these Radhasoami
teachings as the basis for the Lower Astral Plane
religion that he named ECKANKAR. ECKists need to
get out their LEXICONS and follow along.

The Path of the Masters by Julian P. Johnson, 1939:

"The following questions and topics are set forth and
explained in this book in modern, simple, and clear
language. What is religion?... What is God? What are
his names? The great spiritual hierarchies. The superior
planes and high regions. The spiritual guides of past
and present times. The role of the Masters. True and
false 'Gurus' ; how to recognize them. The way to realize
Union with the Supreme Being. The various stages to be
passed through by those willing to tread the pathway of
the Master. How to become a disciple?... The five perver-
sions or passions and their antidotes. The diverse Karmas.
... the Audible Life Stream; in short all that concerns the
'Science of the Masters.'" [pg. xxii]

"Formerly it was considered a violation to divulge the secret
of the inner path, accordingly to the Yogis. This secret was
only revealed after having sustained the most difficult and
rigid tests and counter-tests. This is quite natural where the
Patanjali system is concerned because of the dangers of the
tests submitted to by the chelas. In this exposition of Santon-
ki-Shiksha, contrarily to so many Yogas, dangers at every step
in the course of spiritual practises." [xxiii]

"Truth always expresses itself with the greatest simplicity."
[pg. xxv]

NOTE: This same statement (above) was used by HK in the
12/2005 H.I. Letter.

" 'To practice Yoga out of curiosity, in search of new sensations
or in order to gain psychic power is a mistake which is punished
with futility, neurosis or even worse. None should seek initiation
into the mysteries from unworthy motives, for disaster would
surely result.' (Brunton)" [pg. xxv]

"The method exposed in these pages does not in any way require
the seeker to leave everything and start out as a pilgrim with
sandals and pack in order to submit to endless tortures and tests!
No, the part of the true adept consists in remaining in his usual
surroundings and THERE to earn his living in a situation permitting
him to live a simple, honest and decent life." [pg. xxvi]

"Spirituality cannot be taught but caught." [pg. xxix]

"Sat means 'true or unchangeable' and Sang means 'union.'
[pg. xxix]

"This trinity of the Santon-ki-Shiksha is technically called:
SAT GURU--living Master.
SAT SANG--His company, and
SAT NAM--the True Name (Shabd or Heavenly Bani)."
[pg. xxix]

BTW- This can, also, be found on page 22 of the Shariyat-
ki-Sugmad and is the "Trinity of ECKANKAR" found on page
212 of the ECKANKAR LEXICON.

This proves that ECKANKAR too, is LOWER ASTRAL!

Also, on pages 188-189 of the LEXICON is this definition:
"Shariat. A stage of spiritual unfoldment where rules are
needed for the external mode of religious life."

"It has already been said that a good moral life is the very
prerequisite to becoming a disciple of the Sat Guru. This
may be called the Yama of this Path or the Dharma. In the
language of Muslim Saints it is called SHARIAT, the law of
life, that which is done or ought to be done. All this is taken
for granted, even before one starts on the Path of the Masters."
[pg. 534]

"But the most important thing about all yogi systems is the
complete absence from them of all knowledge of the Shabd
and reliance upon it for entering the higher regions. Without
it, no one can advance very far on the inner path... We have
given only a few hints of it, so that the general reader may
not be wholly be in the dark concerning it. Further details
cannot be given to the general public, but will be given by
the Master to all whom he initiates... some of them get the
Initiation and then lapse into idle indifference. Either that,
or they look to the Guru to do it all for them. In this way
many spend the whole of their lives making practically no
headway on the Path." [pgs. 535-536]

"It will be apparent to the careful student that this system of
SPIRITUAL EXERCISES, taught and practiced by all the Masters
carries the student actually through the 'gates of death'...
He is also able to return to this plane, at will, retaining perfect
memory of all that he has seen and heard. This is one of the
minor achievements of the student... the Masters initiate
students into the Path and give them the method by means
of which they can go and come at will between this and
higher worlds... the Master... As pure spirit, he knows all
things by direct perception..." [pgs. 537-538]

"In this respect the services to mankind of such men as
Bacon, Spinoza, Voltaire, Emerson, Berkeley, Kant, Hegel,
Spencer, Schopenhauer, ..." [pg. 9] Also, in order, and on
page 47, of "The Flute of God."

"But unlike all the rest, The Great Masters practise love."
[pg. 182]

"1. First of all, the necessity of a living Guru, a genuine
Saint who has been appointed by the Supreme Sat Purush
to act as Guru. By living we mean one who is still in a physical
body. It is a fixed law of Nature that only a humanly embodied
soul can act as Guru for those still in the physical body...

2. The second fundamental of this system of the Masters,
the pure Santon-ki-Shiksha, is the vital fact of the Audible
Life Stream...

3. The third general truth emphasized by the Saints is
complete liberation and spiritual triumph while still living
in the physical body...

4. Unless a man is able to give the Initiation and lead his
disciple upon the inner planes, he is not a Master and should
not be accepted as such..." [pgs. 172-174]

"There are two vital points at which all religions fail. One is
the lack of a living Master... A second  lack suffered by all
religions is their loss of all conscious contact with the Audible
Life Stream. [pgs.175-176]


"Every world religion is full of differing sects. All these have
their psychological interpretation. They are expressions of
some phase of religious experience. How many of them may
be due to the mental aberrations of their founders we are not
in a position to say. But in each and every case, they have arisen
out of some sort of inner experiences, even though it is altogether
possible that some of these inner experiences may be attributed
to paranoia. But even then, they may have certain psychological
and religious value. A careful analysis should be made in all cases
and the phenomena should be studied impartially as one would
a new disease." [pg. 196]

The 'mental aberrations' and 'paranoia' part sounds like Twitchell
just created a 'new disease' that Klemp suffers from as well.

Anyway, I could go on and on and show where the Tisra Til is
mentioned and that it's used for the beginner on the Path to meet
the Master on the Astral Plane before traveling into the higher
planes, etc. Yet, ECKANKAR continues to use this lower Astral
technique with all Initiations! Case closed!

Prometheus







Mish wrote:

[snip]
Chela Chat "Detractor" Post (recently posted):

"The Path of the Masters:
1) Those from the Lower Astral viewpoint this book is a treasure
trove.

2) Those who view the book from a Higher Viewpoint, above the
5th Plane, this book is nothing but antiquated garbage. Now from
the above the 5th viewpoint one learns not to criticize even if a book
is an antiquated piece of garbage as they have better things to do
then waste time with such an excursion into such a book that,
because it is out of date, the book doesn't provide anything
worthwhile so why read it.

To criticise the LEMs Paul Twitchell; Dap Ren; Harold Klemp is simple
for the ignorant because they haven't yet reached such an area of
consciousness.

[snip]

These dissentors have not truly experienced Eckankar and will never ?
experience Eckankar because the baggage they carry will prevent the ?
dissentors from seeing the actual truth. The dissentors will only see ?
what they want to see which is information from the Lower Astral a ?
place of grandiose illusions and delusions." (end of CC post)

*******************************************************************
MISH:
Twitchell took word-for-word passages and all of the concepts
mentioned in "The Path of the Masters" and put these in the
Shariyats (The Holy Books) that the eckankar teachings are based
upon! Therefore, if "The Path of the Masters" is "Lower Astral" then
Eckankar is too! LOL!

Also, when this eckist states that "The Path of the Masters" is "nothing
but antiquated garbage," isn't he also confirming what we have been
saying about eckankar--that eckankar is antiquated garbage? LOL!

He whines that the detractors "see . . . only a representation of the
original and (it is) taken out of context," --doesn't eckankar encourage
eckists to do this all the time by suggesting that they randomly open
a page in the Shariyat to find an answer to a problem? Isn't it
encouraged to read the Shariyat in bits and pieces which is reading
it out of context? Also, the eckist on HuChat who posts quotes daily
from HK's writings is doing the same thing. She is taking the sidebar
quotes and placing them out of context on a daily basis. Eckists who
do not bother to read the books in their entirety are reading these
quotes out of context.

BTW--who is this Dap Ren guy this eckist is mentioning?

Anyway, the illogical thoughts of this eckist continue to prove how
out of balance many eckists are--logic fails them time after time!
And they assume wrongly why former members  have left the
path of eckankar.

Mish

Etznab,

by the huge amount of questions you are asking (and they are always
the same and were already answered!) you should not be ignorant any
longer!

So, what kind of game are you playing here?
Ingrid
--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
>
> greenearth,
>
> Ignorant basically means "lacking knowledge of".
>
> People usually ask questions to become more
> knowledgeable.
>
> Etznab
>
>
> **************************************
>  AOL now offers free email to
> everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
>

Hello Etznab & All,
Let's clear up the Darwin thing by stating that Dap Ren
(DG) was still a 'FULL' Mahanta (14th Initiate) when the
12th or 13th apprentice, Klemp,  booted his Master. And,
Gail's dream of Paul selecting Darwin was good enough
for the Board of ECKANKAR back in 1971 wasn't it! I, also,
guess that Gail's dream was good enough for Rebazar too!

Darwin's mistake, other than trusting Klemp, was not to
point out that he, the FULL Mahanta, was always the highest
source of authority and power within ECKANKAR and that
Klemp was not 'fully-cooked' and was being controlled by
the KAL. There is plenty of ECK material that would have
backed this claim up in court.

On Another Note: It is obvious that Twitchell Did Not
meet Rebazar 'on his Second trip to India in 1951'
(as Klemp claims in the PT info on ECKANKAR.org)
since PT Never Met Sudar Singh 'on his first trip in
1935' at age 27. [PT was born in 1908 according to
the copyright page of the ShariYat Books 1&2]

However, IF Twitchell had met RT, prior to even 1965,
and was initiated by him (instead of LEM SUDAR SINGH
which doesn't make sense) Why did Twitchell send
THE TIGER'S FANG manuscript to KIRPAL SINGH instead
of to REBAZAR TARZS?! Kirpal Singh was the Master of
Ruhani Satsang (a sect of Radhasoami). Actually, Kirpal
was Paul's real Master from 1955-1965. Therefore,
the Initiation by Rebazar and those claimed years of
instruction under RT didn't really take place! These
were just more 'exaggerations' and 'twisting of facts.'

Or, on the other hand... the incredible Rebazar lives in a
hut high in the Hindu Kush mountains and, therefore, has
no mailing address to send the manuscript to! LOL! BUT,
why then couldn't PT just hand the manuscript to RT for
proof-reading, editing, and approval on one of those
nightly visits? Why did Kirpal (according to Klemp on
ECKANKAR. org) have The Tiger's Fang manuscript sent
to him if PT was Not his Chela and, instead, Rebazar's Chela?!
Why does Klemp mention Kirpal's name 15 times and Sudar's
name 6 times in the Twitchell info on ECKANKAR.org as well?
I guess ECKists just aren't really good at connecting the
dots and that's another reason as to why Klemp skips back
and forth so much. Afterall, the age 27 in 1935 and the
1908 birthdate were not listed all together!

But, how is it, also, that Rebazar is supposed to, still, be
living in a 500 year old physical body? Probably, because
only a "Living Master" can pass the Rod to another!
Apparently, then, Rebazar 'the torchbearer of ECKANKAR
in the Lower Worlds' also handed the Rod of ECK Power
to Darwin. Therefore, Rebazar Tarzs handed the Rod of
ECK Power to both Paul Twitchell and to Darwin Gross
while Darwin Gross handed the Rod of ECK Power to Harold
Klemp. However, Rebazar doesn't really exist in the first
place, except, in fiction!

If Rebazar were real I can see why HK (Wah-Zoo) felt
slighted and turned on Darwin Gross (Dap Ren) like a
mad doG. Klemp had the ROD handed to him by (now?)
a Black Magician instead of by Rebazar. Or, Darwin tuned
to the Dark Side of the ECK Force AFTER 1981 since he
wouldn't have been permitted to handle the ROD if he had
fallen from Grace. In any case, according to ECKANKAR
lore/dogma, REBAZAR TARZS Did Not and Could Not have
handed the Rod of ECK Power to Klemp, or met with Twitchell
on a 'Second' visit to India in 1951.

What's all of this mean for the ECKist? WAKE UP! It means
that the Truth is something that they don't want to hear
because they can't handle the Truth! It's way too comfortable
and convenient to accept, imagine, and follow along with
their head in the sand. This is what many ECKists were use
to doing in other religions before they thought they had
found the ECKANKAR substitute for religion.

However,HK changed ECKANKAR back into a religion
again right under our noses! [Klemp even quotes from
the even more distorted King James version of the
Christian Bible!] But, at the time, we were told that the
change to the RELIGION of the light and sound of GOD,
the Worship Services, Choirs and singing ECK songs,
Amazing HU (Grace), the RESA Hierarchy, Guidelines,
etc. was for our own good! Now, it appears, that all along
the changes were really for having more control and power
over the org. and for the good of Harold and Joan! Happy
trails ECKies! Those 'Coins of Gold' created by PT were
really just coins of Fool's Gold! The view outside of the
ECKANKAR box is much clearer than ever!


Prometheus



etznab wrote:
I thought about Darwin. But I don't know. Consider the following:

"According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living
ECK Master, Darwin Gross, reportedly claimed that in January, 1983,
his successor, Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it
was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step
aside."
>
Confessions of a God Seeker,  A Journey to Higher Consciousness,
p. 239
>
     If I remember this correctly, it was an Eckist who had a dream that
Darwin Gross later tried to use for a defense. So it wasn't like Rebazar
Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi spoke directly to Darwin. Is this the correct
information?
>
   Yes, I thought about Darwin. Need I say more?
>
Etznab

Yes I have been pondering this Mythical Eck Master Shhhtuff...

Not a whole lot mind you, cuz I do have a life!  ;-)


Rubber Tires can't be found outside of eckankrap because.... think
about it.  Some of us as children created these made up friends, play
mates etc.  Like my 5 year old who has imaginary friends, 2 to be
exact...

As adults "we" (I mean YOU) don't have the spiritual maturity to give
up those imaginary friends. So really, if the eckies want to keep
living in the imaginary world, I say let them.  Have fun going on the
inner, and chatting with your play mates.  ;-)

I swear Reb is real, just ask my other friend Quball scabbie.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Liz

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm looking at you through the glass
Don't know how much time has past
Oh, God it feels like forever
But no one ever tells you
That forever feels like home
Sitting all alone inside your head

How do you feel?
That is the question
But I forget
You don't expect an easy answer

When something like a soul
Becomes initialized
And folded up like paper dolls and little notes
You can't expect the bitter folks
And while your outside looking in
Describing what you see
Remember what your staring at is me

Cause' I'm looking at you through the glass
Don't know how much time has past
All I know is that it feels like forever
And no one ever tells you
That forever feels like home
Sitting all alone inside your head

How much is real
So much to question
An epidemic of the mannequins
Contaminating everything
And if that came from the heart
It never did, right from the start
Just listen to the noises(Now I'm more, instead of voices)

Before You tell yourself
It's just a different scene
Remember it's just different from what you've seen

I'm looking at you through the glass
Don't know how much time has past
Now all I know is that feels like forever
And no one ever tells you
That forever feels like home
Sitting all alone inside your head

Cause' I'm looking at you through the glass
Don't know how much time has past
Now all I know is that it feels like forever
And no one ever tells you
That forever feels like home
Sitting all alone inside your head

And it's the stars... the stars... that shine for you
And it's the stars... the stars... that lie to you

I'm looking at you through the glass
Don't know how much time has past
Oh, God it feels like forever
But no one ever tells you
That forever feels like home
Sitting all alone inside your head

Cause' I'm looking at you through the glass
Don't know how much time has past
All I know is that it feels like forever
But no one ever tells you
That forever feels like home
Sitting all alone inside your head

And it's the stars... the stars... that shine for you
And it's the stars... the stars... that lie to you
And it's the stars... the stars... that shine for you
And it's the stars... the stars... that lie to you

Oh, when the stars... Oh, when the stars... they lie



Artist: Stone Sour
Album: Come What (Ever) May
Title: Through Glass

Hello All,
Can someone jog my memory as to why Darwin (Dap Ren)
was booted by Klemp? Was it a just a money issue? Now I
know that Darwin was a spender, but then again that actually
showed Vairag or Non-attachment and Mental Detachment
toward money and that's why DG spent it so freely! Afterall,
Darwin was a Full Mahanta and Vairagi Adept. Perhaps, this
was just a test for Klemp and his cohorts on the Board. They
failed the test by their Second Guessing of the real intent
(a lesson) by the 'FULL' Mahanta!

Afterall, aren't those buildings in Chanhassen just as bad as
having a private jet? The Seat of ECK Power is supposed to
reside wherever the Mahanta is and Not in an airplane Nor in
a Temple. And, isn't Klemp focused upon money too. Look
at those 'DONATION' requests being mailed out, or asking
ECKists to put ECKANKAR Donations into their WILLS. And,
remember, too, one has to remain an active DONATING
current member in order to be elligible for initiations!

BTW - Klemp, by Not Being Able To Connect The Dots on Paul's
1908 birthdate and being 27 years old in 1935 while lying for
Who's Who in Kentucky and having never traveled while meeting
Sudar Singh in India (1935), during this same time period, means
that Klemp can't be a real Mahanta and is of the KAL! Unless,
Klemp is just trying to confuse the whole issue with Twitchell
by scattering bits and pieces of info around which means that
this trickery and dishonesty, by creating confusion, means that
Klemp can't be a real Mahanta and is of the KAL! Really, which
scenario is it? The end result is the same. Klemp is of the KAL!

Prometheus


Prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello Etznab & All,
> Let's clear up the Darwin thing by stating that Dap Ren
> (DG) was still a 'FULL' Mahanta (14th Initiate) when the
> 12th or 13th apprentice, Klemp,  booted his Master. And,
> Gail's dream of Paul selecting Darwin was good enough
> for the Board of ECKANKAR back in 1971 wasn't it! I, also,
> guess that Gail's dream was good enough for Rebazar too!
>
> Darwin's mistake, other than trusting Klemp, was not to
> point out that he, the FULL Mahanta, was always the highest
> source of authority and power within ECKANKAR and that
> Klemp was not 'fully-cooked' and was being controlled by
> the KAL. There is plenty of ECK material that would have
> backed this claim up in court.
>
> On Another Note: It is obvious that Twitchell Did Not
> meet Rebazar 'on his Second trip to India in 1951'
> (as Klemp claims in the PT info on ECKANKAR.org)
> since PT Never Met Sudar Singh 'on his first trip in
> 1935' at age 27. [PT was born in 1908 according to
> the copyright page of the ShariYat Books 1&2]
>
> However, IF Twitchell had met RT, prior to even 1965,
> and was initiated by him (instead of LEM SUDAR SINGH
> which doesn't make sense) Why did Twitchell send
> THE TIGER'S FANG manuscript to KIRPAL SINGH instead
> of to REBAZAR TARZS?! Kirpal Singh was the Master of
> Ruhani Satsang (a sect of Radhasoami). Actually, Kirpal
> was Paul's real Master from 1955-1965. Therefore,
> the Initiation by Rebazar and those claimed years of
> instruction under RT didn't really take place! These
> were just more 'exaggerations' and 'twisting of facts.'
>
> Or, on the other hand... the incredible Rebazar lives in a
> hut high in the Hindu Kush mountains and, therefore, has
> no mailing address to send the manuscript to! LOL! BUT,
> why then couldn't PT just hand the manuscript to RT for
> proof-reading, editing, and approval on one of those
> nightly visits? Why did Kirpal (according to Klemp on
> ECKANKAR. org) have The Tiger's Fang manuscript sent
> to him if PT was Not his Chela and, instead, Rebazar's Chela?!
> Why does Klemp mention Kirpal's name 15 times and Sudar's
> name 6 times in the Twitchell info on ECKANKAR.org as well?
> I guess ECKists just aren't really good at connecting the
> dots and that's another reason as to why Klemp skips back
> and forth so much. Afterall, the age 27 in 1935 and the
> 1908 birthdate were not listed all together!
>
> But, how is it, also, that Rebazar is supposed to, still, be
> living in a 500 year old physical body? Probably, because
> only a "Living Master" can pass the Rod to another!
> Apparently, then, Rebazar 'the torchbearer of ECKANKAR
> in the Lower Worlds' also handed the Rod of ECK Power
> to Darwin. Therefore, Rebazar Tarzs handed the Rod of
> ECK Power to both Paul Twitchell and to Darwin Gross
> while Darwin Gross handed the Rod of ECK Power to Harold
> Klemp. However, Rebazar doesn't really exist in the first
> place, except, in fiction!
>
> If Rebazar were real I can see why HK (Wah-Zoo) felt
> slighted and turned on Darwin Gross (Dap Ren) like a
> mad doG. Klemp had the ROD handed to him by (now?)
> a Black Magician instead of by Rebazar. Or, Darwin tuned
> to the Dark Side of the ECK Force AFTER 1981 since he
> wouldn't have been permitted to handle the ROD if he had
> fallen from Grace. In any case, according to ECKANKAR
> lore/dogma, REBAZAR TARZS Did Not and Could Not have
> handed the Rod of ECK Power to Klemp, or met with Twitchell
> on a 'Second' visit to India in 1951.
>
> What's all of this mean for the ECKist? WAKE UP! It means
> that the Truth is something that they don't want to hear
> because they can't handle the Truth! It's way too comfortable
> and convenient to accept, imagine, and follow along with
> their head in the sand. This is what many ECKists were use
> to doing in other religions before they thought they had
> found the ECKANKAR substitute for religion.
>
> However,HK changed ECKANKAR back into a religion
> again right under our noses! [Klemp even quotes from
> the even more distorted King James version of the
> Christian Bible!] But, at the time, we were told that the
> change to the RELIGION of the light and sound of GOD,
> the Worship Services, Choirs and singing ECK songs,
> Amazing HU (Grace), the RESA Hierarchy, Guidelines,
> etc. was for our own good! Now, it appears, that all along
> the changes were really for having more control and power
> over the org. and for the good of Harold and Joan! Happy
> trails ECKies! Those 'Coins of Gold' created by PT were
> really just coins of Fool's Gold! The view outside of the
> ECKANKAR box is much clearer than ever!
>
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
> etznab wrote:
> I thought about Darwin. But I don't know. Consider the following:
>
> "According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living
> ECK Master, Darwin Gross, reportedly claimed that in January, 1983,
> his successor, Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it
> was Rebazar Tarz and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step
> aside."
> >
> Confessions of a God Seeker,  A Journey to Higher Consciousness,
> p. 239
> >
>     If I remember this correctly, it was an Eckist who had a dream that
> Darwin Gross later tried to use for a defense. So it wasn't like Rebazar
> Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi spoke directly to Darwin. Is this the correct
> information?
> >
>   Yes, I thought about Darwin. Need I say more?
> >
> Etznab
>

Hello, Everyone--ESA Members and Lurkers!

Regarding nutty eckist thinking, I thought I'd share a couple
  responses to the eck detractor post recently posted on
Chela Chat. An eckist posted a poem written by a former eckist
who has now become a detractor of eckankar. The poster
thought the poem was beautiful but can't figure out what went
wrong to cause the eckist to drop out. She should read some of
our posts here to get that insight! LOL!

Anyway, another eckist responded to her quiry explaining
her burden of heavy karma in this lifetime, further stating
that she has been an eckist for 31 years and is still a 2nd
inititate. She chalks it up to her bad behavior in earlier
lifetimes and feels that she must work out as much bad
karma as she can in this life. I guess she has not associated
not keeping up with her membership "donations" with
receiving those pink slips! And maybe some higher ups
have it in for her! Anyway, she is a fool to think that her
karma is keeping her at a 2nd initiation level--it is not how
the eckankar system works on those fake/bogus initiations!

From ChelaChat on detractors:

End of post by one eckist--I didn't include in its entirety with
the poem she is referencing:
">Beautiful, isn't it? I wonder what went wrong .....
with love in ECK, (name removed)>"

Reply posted by the other:
"It is beautiful. I think the burden of karma sometimes
is getting too heavy or too thick to work off in one lifetime
and they leave the path to take a breather. This path is not for
sissies, it takes a lot of strength, determination and endurance to
shovel through the mess we have created for ourselves. I have the
second initiation for 31 years now, actually I got it twice LOL. But
good grief, the stuff I got into in previous lives... I run into these
rattlesnake like pits and then I ask the Mahanta how did this happen?
and I get the answer in a dream. Just lovely. I either had tortured
those people or they had trusted me and I misled them, or I took
advantage of them, there seems to be no end of that. But then I look
at those rattlesnakes around me and I say, I love you and thank you
for the opportunity to set the record straight. During all this the
Mahanta keeps me warm, dry and well fed - I actually gained some
pounds recently LOL."

I really like the comment, "This path is not for sissies!" LOL! No,
eckankar is definitely not the path for sissies--it works better for
fools! You have to be a fool to fall for the con and nonsense. This
eckist certainly has been a fool for a very long time, and it doesn't
seem she'll ever get beyond that! Her "rattlesnakes" are all of her
unbalanced  and delusional mind! : )

The original post follows:

:-)--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com,
  "mishmisha9" <mishmisha9@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hey, do you think he's talking about us? LOL!
>
> Chela Chat "Detractor" Post (recently posted):
>
> "Why is it that detractors read from books then quote
> only what they FEEL is meant??
>
> Notice the word FEEL.
> FEEL is basically:

> 1) Physical - physical areas of expression
> 2) Astral - emotional areas of expression
>
> Because they are 'against' something they are incapable
> of going beyond these two aspects (physical and emotional).
> They have created this ceiling by their limitations of expression.
> Their own negative expression do limit and that limitation is
> to the Lower Astral only.
>
> No matter what they quote nor no matter what they do they
> will only see what they want
to see. When one is limited to the
> Lower Astral what they see is only a representation of the
> original and taken out of context.?

> For example:
> The Path of the Masters:

> 1) Those from the Lower Astral viewpoint this book is a treasure
> trove.

> 2) Those who view the book from a Higher Viewpoint, above the
> 5th Plane, this book is nothing but antiquated garbage. Now from
> the above the 5th viewpoint one learns not to criticize even if a book
> is an antiquated piece of garbage as they have better things to do
> then waste time with such an excursion into such a book that,
> because it is out of date, the book doesn't provide anything
> worthwhile so why read it.

> To criticise the LEMs Paul Twitchell; Dap Ren; Harold Klemp is simple
> for the ignorant because they haven't yet reached such an area of
> consciousness.

> In the magazine Occult (1978) there was articles on many areas.
> They got to Eckankar and their answer was basically: 'We are unable
> to comment on Eckankar because we have not experienced Eckankar'.

> This is a very wise move on the behalf of individuals who have
> maintained their integrity.

> Speaking of the same magazine, Occult, they did mentioned
> something else very relevant here:

> 'The Beatles went to Paul Twitchell and asked Paul if he would
> become their guru. Paul refused because of the Beatle's involvement
> with illegal drugs.

> The Beatles then went to the maharishi (TM) and ask him and the
> maharishi said 'of course.

> Paul could have made millions but he refused and took a Path that is
> clear of producing illusions.'

> Criticism basically means the lack of development. This lack keeps
> one in the Lower Astral, only.

> The dissentors of Eckankar are paupers looking for ways to prove
> themselves.

> Eckankar is not looking for those who try to prove something or for
> those who want to wallow in the muck of the Lower Astral.
> ?
> Eckankar is looking for those who are willing to shed their Lower
> Selves and go an adventure that is very difficult indeed. This
> difficult adventure, if willing, will lead the chela, in Eckankar, to
> areas of life that demand the chela to shed the baggage so that
> each step Higher will become easier (as each piece of that baggage
> is let go of). One wrong step and if the baggage is hung onto will
> only drag the chela downwards.

> These dissentors have not truly experienced Eckankar and will never
> experience Eckankar because the baggage they carry will prevent the
> dissentors from seeing the actual truth. The dissentors will only see
> what they want to see which is information from the Lower Astral a ?
> place of grandiose illusions and delusions." (end of CC post)
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> Twitchell took word-for-word passages and all of the concepts
> mentioned in "The Path of the Masters" and put these in the
> Shariyats (The Holy Books) that the eckankar teachings are based
> upon! Therefore, if "The Path of the Masters" is "Lower Astral" then
> Eckankar is too! LOL!
>
> Also, when this eckist states that "The Path of the Masters" is "nothing
> but antiquated garbage," isn't he also confirming what we have been
> saying about eckankar--that eckankar is antiquated garbage? LOL!
>
> He whines that the detractors "see . . . only a representation of the
> original and (it is) taken out of context," --doesn't eckankar encourage
> eckists to do this all the time by suggesting that they randomly open
>  a page in the Shariyat to find an answer to a problem? Isn't it
> encouraged to read the Shariyat in bits and pieces which is reading
> it out of context? Also, the eckist on HuChat who posts quotes daily
> from HK's writings is doing the same thing. She is taking the sidebar
> quotes and placing them out of context on a daily basis. Eckists who
> do not bother to read the books in their entirety are reading these
> quotes out of context.
>
> BTW--who is this Dap Ren guy this eckist is mentioning?
>
> Anyway, the illogical thoughts of this eckist continue to prove how
> out of balance many eckists are--logic fails them time after time!
> And they assume wrongly why former members  have left the
> path of eckankar.
>
> Mish
>

Hello All,
I thought that I would give more quotes from The
Path of the Masters to show where Twitchell got
90% of his material (much of which PT distorted
and recreated) for his newly created ECKANKAR
sect.

Go to the LINKS page of this site to see more info.

MORE PROOF FROM--
The Path of the Masters by Julian P. Johnson, 1939:

"As to whether Zarathustra himself was a real Master
or Saint the best way to answer that is to invite you
to the living Master, who himself will give you the
method by which you may know all about it yourself,
without taking even the word of the Master. The same
may be said regarding Jesus or any of the great religious
characters in history. The Master can give you the key
by means of whichyou may win the right to a personal
interview with any of those men. You will then know
of a certainty their standing, not only at the time of
their life on earth but of their present status. You may
meet them personally and converse with them."
[pg. 45]

[ME]: Now isn't this strange that this is the promise
from the living Master to the student of Radhasoami
back in 1939, and before that actually, while Klemp
(the Mahanta) can't seem to come up with information
on Sudar Singh or that HK still mentions UNKNOWN
ECK MASTERS. Why are there ANY unknowns, especially
ECK Masters, for one possessing the Greatest Mahanta
CONsciousness anywhere - ever?! It doesn't make sense
and that's just one more reason why it's not true and why
Klemp and Twitchell's versions of the Radhasoami and
Ruhani Satsang Sects aren't true either! Not that these
two religious sects have the truth either! Soul is Its own
Living (ECK) Master!

"The Vedas, the Shastras, the Puranas, and the Gita, the
Mahabharata, and the Ramayana in India, the Zend Avesta
in Persia, the Bible in Syria, the Quran in Arabia, and a
little later the Granth Sahib of the Sikhs in India, all these
are books worshipped and obeyed. They are declared,
EX-CATHEDRA, to be the inspired word of God. Ergo, it
is the duty of men to accept and believe in them. And all
of them are fetters to intelligence, no matter good they may
be in and of themselves. They may become fetters because
their followers insist that all revelation is closed. All spiritual
instructions are finished. Instead of listening to a living
Master in each age, their several books are considered the
infallible word. Crystallization of thought always goes before
moral stagnation. Without a living Master spirituality wanes,
as a lamp goes out when the oil is exhausted. As soon as a
religion becomes fixed, static, crystallized, upon that foundation
a corrupt priesthood is established, and at once the whole
thing begins to decline into an inspired formalism. This is
history. It is no theory.

Only when the living Master comes with a vitalized and
dynamic science, only then can he 'speak as one having
authority.' After all, what is a holy book at best? It is a
statement of the inner experiences of a living Master. Then
why not listen to the living Master now? Why not see him
and hear him yourself instead of reading about some Masters
who lived centuries or thousands of years ago?" [pg.73]

[ME]: And yet Klemp quotes from the King James Bible,
and from Twitchell's Shariyats, Stranger by the River, and
mentions The Tiger's Fang along with giving other quotes
and other stories from the distant past! It seems like Klemp
is more the 'complier' than Twitchell. When one looks at
Klemps books, how much of that material is from other
sources? Has Klemp ever written anything comparable to
those books still available by Twitchell? NO! Absolutely NOT!

"We cannot reproduce the writings of the Saints here. They
would not mean so much to the Western reader as they do
to the Indian student. But we wish to mention one in particular
who speaks so delightfully of the Audible Life Wave,
corroborating the words of Jesus and of all other Saints. This
is SHAMS-I-TABRIZ, a Persian Saint of the later middle ages.
It is difficult to say which of the two, KABIR SAHIB or Shams-
i-Tabriz speaks more lovingly of the Life Stream. Their songs
are more inspiring. Tagore has translated many of the songs
of Kabir; but himself having no knowledge of the LIFE STREAM,
he does not seem to have grasped the real significance of
Kabir's teachings. The following was translated by Judge
Munshi Ram and Prof. Jagat Singh*... It is full of beauty and
rapturous appreciation of the heavenly BANI.

To me came the Sound incomparable, which comes
Neither from within, nor without.
Neither does it come from left, nor from the right.
Nor from the back, nor from the front.
You will ask then, whence does it come?
It will come from the direction you are seeking to go.
You will ask then, which way shall I face?--
The side from which the bride-groom cometh.
That direction whence ripeness comes to fruit;
That direction from which stones become diamonds.
Be silent and listen to the five sounds from Heaven,
The Heaven which is beyond all senses and directions.
Every momeny in life this wonderous Sound
Reaches down from the courts of Heaven
Fortunate above all the children of men
Is he who hears its enchanting melodies." [pgs. 500-501]

*["who became the appointed Successor to the Great Master,"
Huzur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh Ji, 1858-1948, (Baba Sawan
was the Master of both Sant Kirpal Singh Ji, living Master of
Ruhani Satsang, and Sardar Bahadur (Prof.) Jagat Singh Ji
Maharaj's of Radhasoami. Kirpal took his followers and started
his own sect, like Twitchell, when he was not appointed, due to
politics, etc. as a Successor. Kirpal Singh was Paul Twitchell's
real Master from 1955-1965]

[ME]: Isn't it too bad that Klemp is incapable of writing poetry.
Why cannot he express himself of SUGMAD's Love with a book
of poetry? Once again, the reason so many ECKists look to RUMI
and others is because Klemp falls short of the mark every time!
Many ECKists hope that Klemp is/was just the substitute Mahanta
until the real thing comes along! However, they just need to look
into the mirror in order to see the real Living (ECK) Master/Mahanta!

Prometheus














Prometheus wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> It's apparant that this Chela-Chat ECKist hasn't read
> "The Path of the Masters." I think that I'll give some
> quotes to show that Twitchell used these Radhasoami
> teachings as the basis for the Lower Astral Plane
> religion that he named ECKANKAR. ECKists need to
> get out their LEXICONS and follow along.
>
> The Path of the Masters by Julian P. Johnson, 1939:
>
> "The following questions and topics are set forth and
> explained in this book in modern, simple, and clear
> language. What is religion?... What is God? What are
> his names? The great spiritual hierarchies. The superior
> planes and high regions. The spiritual guides of past
> and present times. The role of the Masters. True and
> false 'Gurus' ; how to recognize them. The way to realize
> Union with the Supreme Being. The various stages to be
> passed through by those willing to tread the pathway of
> the Master. How to become a disciple?... The five perver-
> sions or passions and their antidotes. The diverse Karmas.
> ... the Audible Life Stream; in short all that concerns the
> 'Science of the Masters.'" [pg. xxii]
>
> "Formerly it was considered a violation to divulge the secret
> of the inner path, accordingly to the Yogis. This secret was
> only revealed after having sustained the most difficult and
> rigid tests and counter-tests. This is quite natural where the
> Patanjali system is concerned because of the dangers of the
> tests submitted to by the chelas. In this exposition of Santon-
> ki-Shiksha, contrarily to so many Yogas, dangers at every step
> in the course of spiritual practises." [xxiii]
>
> "Truth always expresses itself with the greatest simplicity."
> [pg. xxv]
>
> NOTE: This same statement (above) was used by HK in the
> 12/2005 H.I. Letter.
>
> " 'To practice Yoga out of curiosity, in search of new sensations
> or in order to gain psychic power is a mistake which is punished
> with futility, neurosis or even worse. None should seek initiation
> into the mysteries from unworthy motives, for disaster would
> surely result.' (Brunton)" [pg. xxv]
>
> "The method exposed in these pages does not in any way require
> the seeker to leave everything and start out as a pilgrim with
> sandals and pack in order to submit to endless tortures and tests!
> No, the part of the true adept consists in remaining in his usual
> surroundings and THERE to earn his living in a situation permitting
> him to live a simple, honest and decent life." [pg. xxvi]
>
> "Spirituality cannot be taught but caught." [pg. xxix]
>
> "Sat means 'true or unchangeable' and Sang means 'union.'
> [pg. xxix]
>
> "This trinity of the Santon-ki-Shiksha is technically called:
> SAT GURU--living Master.
> SAT SANG--His company, and
> SAT NAM--the True Name (Shabd or Heavenly Bani)."
> [pg. xxix]
>
> BTW- This can, also, be found on page 22 of the Shariyat-
> ki-Sugmad and is the "Trinity of ECKANKAR" found on page
> 212 of the ECKANKAR LEXICON.
>
> This proves that ECKANKAR too, is LOWER ASTRAL!
>
> Also, on pages 188-189 of the LEXICON is this definition:
> "Shariat. A stage of spiritual unfoldment where rules are
> needed for the external mode of religious life."
>
> "It has already been said that a good moral life is the very
> prerequisite to becoming a disciple of the Sat Guru. This
> may be called the Yama of this Path or the Dharma. In the
> language of Muslim Saints it is called SHARIAT, the law of
> life, that which is done or ought to be done. All this is taken
> for granted, even before one starts on the Path of the Masters."
> [pg. 534]
>
> "But the most important thing about all yogi systems is the
> complete absence from them of all knowledge of the Shabd
> and reliance upon it for entering the higher regions. Without
> it, no one can advance very far on the inner path... We have
> given only a few hints of it, so that the general reader may
> not be wholly be in the dark concerning it. Further details
> cannot be given to the general public, but will be given by
> the Master to all whom he initiates... some of them get the
> Initiation and then lapse into idle indifference. Either that,
> or they look to the Guru to do it all for them. In this way
> many spend the whole of their lives making practically no
> headway on the Path." [pgs. 535-536]
>
> "It will be apparent to the careful student that this system of
> SPIRITUAL EXERCISES, taught and practiced by all the Masters
> carries the student actually through the 'gates of death'...
> He is also able to return to this plane, at will, retaining perfect
> memory of all that he has seen and heard. This is one of the
> minor achievements of the student... the Masters initiate
> students into the Path and give them the method by means
> of which they can go and come at will between this and
> higher worlds... the Master... As pure spirit, he knows all
> things by direct perception..." [pgs. 537-538]
>
> "In this respect the services to mankind of such men as
> Bacon, Spinoza, Voltaire, Emerson, Berkeley, Kant, Hegel,
> Spencer, Schopenhauer, ..." [pg. 9] Also, in order, and on
> page 47, of "The Flute of God."
>
> "But unlike all the rest, The Great Masters practise love."
> [pg. 182]
>
> "1. First of all, the necessity of a living Guru, a genuine
> Saint who has been appointed by the Supreme Sat Purush
> to act as Guru. By living we mean one who is still in a physical
> body. It is a fixed law of Nature that only a humanly embodied
> soul can act as Guru for those still in the physical body...
>
> 2. The second fundamental of this system of the Masters,
> the pure Santon-ki-Shiksha, is the vital fact of the Audible
> Life Stream...
>
> 3. The third general truth emphasized by the Saints is
> complete liberation and spiritual triumph while still living
> in the physical body...
>
> 4. Unless a man is able to give the Initiation and lead his
> disciple upon the inner planes, he is not a Master and should
> not be accepted as such..." [pgs. 172-174]
>
> "There are two vital points at which all religions fail. One is
> the lack of a living Master... A second  lack suffered by all
> religions is their loss of all conscious contact with the Audible
> Life Stream. [pgs.175-176]
>
>
> "Every world religion is full of differing sects. All these have
> their psychological interpretation. They are expressions of
> some phase of religious experience. How many of them may
> be due to the mental aberrations of their founders we are not
> in a position to say. But in each and every case, they have arisen
> out of some sort of inner experiences, even though it is altogether
> possible that some of these inner experiences may be attributed
> to paranoia. But even then, they may have certain psychological
> and religious value. A careful analysis should be made in all cases
> and the phenomena should be studied impartially as one would
> a new disease." [pg. 196]
>
> The 'mental aberrations' and 'paranoia' part sounds like Twitchell
> just created a 'new disease' that Klemp suffers from as well.
>
> Anyway, I could go on and on and show where the Tisra Til is
> mentioned and that it's used for the beginner on the Path to meet
> the Master on the Astral Plane before traveling into the higher
> planes, etc. Yet, ECKANKAR continues to use this lower Astral
> technique with all Initiations! Case closed!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mish wrote:
>
> [snip]
> Chela Chat "Detractor" Post (recently posted):
>
> "The Path of the Masters:
> 1) Those from the Lower Astral viewpoint this book is a treasure
> trove.
>
> 2) Those who view the book from a Higher Viewpoint, above the
> 5th Plane, this book is nothing but antiquated garbage. Now from
> the above the 5th viewpoint one learns not to criticize even if a book
> is an antiquated piece of garbage as they have better things to do
> then waste time with such an excursion into such a book that,
> because it is out of date, the book doesn't provide anything
> worthwhile so why read it.
>
> To criticise the LEMs Paul Twitchell; Dap Ren; Harold Klemp is simple
> for the ignorant because they haven't yet reached such an area of
> consciousness.
>
> [snip]
>
> These dissentors have not truly experienced Eckankar and will never ?
> experience Eckankar because the baggage they carry will prevent the ?
> dissentors from seeing the actual truth. The dissentors will only see ?
> what they want to see which is information from the Lower Astral a ?
> place of grandiose illusions and delusions." (end of CC post)
>
> *******************************************************************
> MISH:
> Twitchell took word-for-word passages and all of the concepts
> mentioned in "The Path of the Masters" and put these in the
> Shariyats (The Holy Books) that the eckankar teachings are based
> upon! Therefore, if "The Path of the Masters" is "Lower Astral" then
> Eckankar is too! LOL!
>
> Also, when this eckist states that "The Path of the Masters" is "nothing
> but antiquated garbage," isn't he also confirming what we have been
> saying about eckankar--that eckankar is antiquated garbage? LOL!
>
> He whines that the detractors "see . . . only a representation of the
> original and (it is) taken out of context," --doesn't eckankar encourage
> eckists to do this all the time by suggesting that they randomly open
> a page in the Shariyat to find an answer to a problem? Isn't it
> encouraged to read the Shariyat in bits and pieces which is reading
> it out of context? Also, the eckist on HuChat who posts quotes daily
> from HK's writings is doing the same thing. She is taking the sidebar
> quotes and placing them out of context on a daily basis. Eckists who
> do not bother to read the books in their entirety are reading these
> quotes out of context.
>
> BTW--who is this Dap Ren guy this eckist is mentioning?
>
> Anyway, the illogical thoughts of this eckist continue to prove how
> out of balance many eckists are--logic fails them time after time!
> And they assume wrongly why former members  have left the
> path of eckankar.
>
> Mish
>

Mish and all,

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
---snip>---

From ChelaChat on detractors:
>
> End of post by one eckist--I didn't include in its entirety with
> the poem she is referencing:
> ">Beautiful, isn't it? I wonder what went wrong .....
> with love in ECK, (name removed)>"

*** Well I guess this ex-eckist just realized how much damage
eckankar can do, and how dangerous the ekkie thinking is! It takes a
while to realize that after dropping out because first, one has to
shed that ekkie thinking!
>
> Reply posted by the other:
> "It is beautiful. I think the burden of karma sometimes
> is getting too heavy or too thick to work off in one lifetime
> and they leave the path to take a breather. This path is not for
> sissies, it takes a lot of strength, determination and endurance to
> shovel through the mess we have created for ourselves.

*** I know this eckist personally, and I can say that she is a bit of
a nutcase. :-) Life in general is not for sissies, and I think
neither those who have never heard of eckankar (eckankar has about
50.000 members worldwide, right? So that is a lot of people "not on
the path!" LOL!) nor those who have dropped out are sissies. What
about those who rely on the mahanta, Harold Klemp, for any decision
they take - are they sissies, perhaps, or not? LOL!

>I have the
> second initiation for 31 years now, actually I got it twice LOL.

*** Well she was married to a man who couldn't stand eckankar at all,
and she wasn't allowed to read any eck books nor to study the
discourses. But I know she thinks she has got all the inner
initiations and that she has arrived at the 20th or so! LOL! Well,
that was a few years ago - maybe she has had her 25th by now, while
still being a 2nd initiate on the outer! LOL!

>But
> good grief, the stuff I got into in previous lives... I run into
>these
> rattlesnake like pits and then I ask the Mahanta how did this
>happen?
> and I get the answer in a dream. Just lovely. I either had tortured
> those people or they had trusted me and I misled them, or I took
> advantage of them, there seems to be no end of that.

*** I really don't think one has to look back so far - I got the
impression that if an ekkie could hand it over to a previous life it
was as if it didn't exist in the here and now! I just thank that
maybe that pattern is continuing - her taking advantage of people and
then getting into a mess?

> But then I look
> at those rattlesnakes around me and I say, I love you and thank you
> for the opportunity to set the record straight. During all this the
> Mahanta keeps me warm, dry and well fed - I actually gained some
> pounds recently LOL."

*** Well, she seems to think that she is the only good person
surrounded by rattlesnakes! Talk about delusion! LOL!
Ingrid
---snip---

Hello All,

This Chela-Chat Chela (31 years as an off/on member and
still a 2nd Initiate) is still delusional & rationalizing! Too
bad she can't see the forrest for the trees! Klemp's version
of ECKANKAR is all about placing guilt and shame and
unworthiness on the Chela and wanting the ECKist to Show
Him The MONEY for those initiations and every other little
money making scheme, including his worthless books.
"Whatever it takes" seems to be the key phrase for these
KAL agents. Yes, just think about it, Klemp never takes
responsibility or keeps his promises it always comes back
to being the Chela's fault (sin)! Does Rebazar ask for money
at all, or for anything?! No, of course not! He never has in
anything I've read! What Would Rebazar Do (WWRD) when it
came to giving and taking away initiations due to making
monetary DONATIONS! Aren't donations of TIME & SERVICE
by devoted ECKists more valuable or even as valuable as MONEY?!

Perhaps, REBAZAR is the real INNER MASTER for ECKists and this
is why Klemp always seems to come up short. Here's a quote
on KARMA by Rebazar Tarzs from Dialogues With the Master
pages 80-81 that also seems to lead to Self-Mastery:

[R.T.]: "Often the Master will let the devotee act out his problem
mentally, and by doing so, go through the process of transferring
the negative forces to the teacher. Of course, I can dispel these
forces at will, but first must take them from the devotee.

"This action works in two ways. First, if the devotee, because of
an early denial or repression, has an insatiable desire to be loved,
and throws positive love upon my universal body and establishes
a cord of love which is OVERLY balanced in the devotee, and adjusts
in time to a STEADY faithful devotion for the Master, he will have
the ability to walk without my support. [My Caps]

"Second, often the devotee transfers his negative karma to the
Master in the form of hostility and feelings of hatred. In time,
the devotee will become a true follower of ECK, giving only the
highest devotion and love.

"In a way, this is the method by which I take over the karma of
my devotees. But if one has a karma to bear which must be done
alone, in order to get across a lesson, I do nothing about it for
MY OWN LAW compels me to stand aside and let the disciple
learn without help, UNTIL HE REACHES OUT TO TAKE MY LOVE
WITHOUT REGRET OR REMORSE FOR THE HIGHER STEP. [My Caps]

"Frankly, it is very important for you to know yourself, as I have
always preached. In time the devotee learns to realize the meaning
of love and hate (which he finds reflected in his own Soul) in
order to be rehabilitated (if I can use this word) himself, in the
spiritual world.

"Before leaving off this discussion, let me say that you can be rid
of a complex or phobia by forcing it. But the ECK Master must take
it and fill its vacuum with love.

[ME]: So, it seems that Master Rebazar acts as a mental construct
for the devotee's love until, perhaps, the devotee can love and know
thyself and All That Is and becomes a Master too! It is interesting that
in this earlier book of Twitchell's (DIALOGUES) that Rebazar doesn't
once speak in Old English with Thee, Thou, Thy, etc.. as he does in
PT's later book "Stranger By The River." Now why is that? Maybe the
mission of Twitchell and of ECKANKAR changed after 1968. At one
time an ECKist, after making the 5th Initiation, was considered a
Master and no longer needed the outer organization. ECKists should
read pages 104-106 of Dialogues With the Master. I'll post it when
I have time later. Yes, it seems SAT NAM is the true personification
of the 'Supreme Being' the SUGMAD. No Mahanta here! Therefore,
ECKists need only to look to Rebazar (in the lower worlds) and SAT
NAM on the Inner!

Prometheus




Chela-Chat Chela:
"It is beautiful. I think the burden of karma sometimes is getting
too heavy or too thick to work off in one lifetime and they leave
the path to take a breather. This path is not for sissies, it takes
a lot of strength, determination and endurance to shovel through
the mess we have created for ourselves. I have the second initiation
for 31 years now, actually I got it twice LOL. But good grief, the stuff
I got into in previous lives... I run into these rattlesnake like pits and
then I ask the Mahanta how did this happen? and I get the answer in
a dream. Just lovely. I either had tortured those people or they had
trusted me and I misled them, or I took advantage of them, there
seems to be no end of that. But then I look at those rattlesnakes
around me and I say, I love you and thank you for the opportunity
to set the record straight. During all this the Mahanta keeps me warm,
dry and well fed - I actually gained some pounds recently LOL."

Hello All,
This shows that Rebazar is not only the Lower
Worlds 'torchbearer,' the true LEM for ECKANKAR,
and that SAT NAM is the true INNER MASTER.
Here's more proof, for ECKists, from Twitchell's
book "Dialogues With the Master" of this fact:

[R.T.]: "While still in the lower regions of the Astral
plane and that of Brahm, Soul is liable always to
return to earth and to rebirth and death -- the
'Wheel of the Eighty-four.' But when It reaches the
pure region of Sat Lok, which is the first plane beyond
Sach Khand there is no more returning to earth, except
as a Redeemer. Soul becomes a saint Itself; AND THE
MISSION OF HIS MASTER IS THROUGH, AS FAR AS THE
JOURNEY GOES. But Soul has yet to travel over the most
sublime and beautiful part of Its journey. For above
Sach Khand there are three other planes of inconceivable
splendor. HERE THE LORD OF THE FIFTH WORLD, SAT
NAM, TAKES OVER AND GUIDES SOUL TO THE END OF
ITS JOURNEY.

"FIRST, IT BECOMES UNITED WITH THE VERY ESSENCE OF
SAT NAM IN A MYSTIC SENSE, AND SO BECOMES ONE WITH
IT, PARTAKING OF ALL OF ITS ATTRIBUTES. IT THEN ADVANCES
TO THE THREE REMAINING REGIONS.

"Next is the ALAKH LOK... and after this is AGAM LOK...
Finally Soul reaches the end of Its journey, the region
of the nameless ONE, or the SUGMAD, the supreme LORD
of all that exists. [End of quotes, my caps, pgs. 105-106]

*************************************************************
BTW- SAT LOK, SACH KHAND, ATMA LOK, FIFTH PLANE,
SOUL PLANE are all the same and the true home of Soul.
[ECKANKAR Lexicon, pg. 177, 183]

Also, Klemp DOES NOT mention SAT NAM in ECKANKAR's
Spiritual Hierarchy on page 197 of the Lexicon?!

It's interesting too, that Rebazar states that there are only
THREE REMAINING REGIONS ABOVE SACH KHAND (the 5th).

And, ALAKH LOK is the 6th Plane or Region, while AGAM
LOK is the 9th Plane or Region, and while the NAMELESS
region is "named" the ANAMI LOK (10th Plane) on the God
Worlds Chart. It, also, looks like there is a higher region
named SUGMAD, Ocean of Love and Mercy above the ANAMI
LOK. [page 232 of the ECKANKAR Lexicon]

Okay, I just looked it up and the ANAMI LOK is the highest
Region and is where SUGMAD resides (pg. 9, Lexicon). And,
Ocean of Love and Mercy, on page 153, states that this is
also the name for SUGMAD.

I just have two more observations. Why is the highest
Plane the 10th ANAMI LOK when even an 'un-cooked'
Living ECK Master (according to HK) starts out as a 12th
on the 12th? What's with that? Is REBAZAR wrong?

Also, isn't it strange that REBAZAR gives the 6th, 9th,
and 10th Planes/Regions above the 5th for Soul to
complete Its journey with SAT NAM?

This means that early on (circa 1968) Twitchell/Rebazar
had only EIGHT PLANES listed! So, was Twitchell lying
and just created a fictional REBAZAR, or was REBAZAR
mistaken or lying about guiding Soul to the 5th and then
handing It off to SAT NAM instead of to a Mahanta.
Remember, the Mahanta title was first mentioned by
Twitch in the JAN. 1, 1969 Wisdom Notes.

Prometheus







Prometheus wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> This Chela-Chat Chela (31 years as an off/on member and
> still a 2nd Initiate) is still delusional & rationalizing! Too
> bad she can't see the forrest for the trees! Klemp's version
> of ECKANKAR is all about placing guilt and shame and
> unworthiness on the Chela and wanting the ECKist to Show
> Him The MONEY for those initiations and every other little
> money making scheme, including his worthless books.
> "Whatever it takes" seems to be the key phrase for these
> KAL agents. Yes, just think about it, Klemp never takes
> responsibility or keeps his promises it always comes back
> to being the Chela's fault (sin)! Does Rebazar ask for money
> at all, or for anything?! No, of course not! He never has in
> anything I've read! What Would Rebazar Do (WWRD) when it
> came to giving and taking away initiations due to making
> monetary DONATIONS! Aren't donations of TIME & SERVICE
> by devoted ECKists more valuable or even as valuable as MONEY?!
>
> Perhaps, REBAZAR is the real INNER MASTER for ECKists and this
> is why Klemp always seems to come up short. Here's a quote
> on KARMA by Rebazar Tarzs from Dialogues With the Master
> pages 80-81 that also seems to lead to Self-Mastery:
>
> [R.T.]: "Often the Master will let the devotee act out his problem
> mentally, and by doing so, go through the process of transferring
> the negative forces to the teacher. Of course, I can dispel these
> forces at will, but first must take them from the devotee.
>
> "This action works in two ways. First, if the devotee, because of
> an early denial or repression, has an insatiable desire to be loved,
> and throws positive love upon my universal body and establishes
> a cord of love which is OVERLY balanced in the devotee, and adjusts
> in time to a STEADY faithful devotion for the Master, he will have
> the ability to walk without my support. [My Caps]
>
> "Second, often the devotee transfers his negative karma to the
> Master in the form of hostility and feelings of hatred. In time,
> the devotee will become a true follower of ECK, giving only the
> highest devotion and love.
>
> "In a way, this is the method by which I take over the karma of
> my devotees. But if one has a karma to bear which must be done
> alone, in order to get across a lesson, I do nothing about it for
> MY OWN LAW compels me to stand aside and let the disciple
> learn without help, UNTIL HE REACHES OUT TO TAKE MY LOVE
> WITHOUT REGRET OR REMORSE FOR THE HIGHER STEP. [My Caps]
>
> "Frankly, it is very important for you to know yourself, as I have
> always preached. In time the devotee learns to realize the meaning
> of love and hate (which he finds reflected in his own Soul) in
> order to be rehabilitated (if I can use this word) himself, in the
> spiritual world.
>
> "Before leaving off this discussion, let me say that you can be rid
> of a complex or phobia by forcing it. But the ECK Master must take
> it and fill its vacuum with love.
>
> [ME]: So, it seems that Master Rebazar acts as a mental construct
> for the devotee's love until, perhaps, the devotee can love and know
> thyself and All That Is and becomes a Master too! It is interesting that
> in this earlier book of Twitchell's (DIALOGUES) that Rebazar doesn't
> once speak in Old English with Thee, Thou, Thy, etc.. as he does in
> PT's later book "Stranger By The River." Now why is that? Maybe the
> mission of Twitchell and of ECKANKAR changed after 1968. At one
> time an ECKist, after making the 5th Initiation, was considered a
> Master and no longer needed the outer organization. ECKists should
> read pages 104-106 of Dialogues With the Master. I'll post it when
> I have time later. Yes, it seems SAT NAM is the true personification
> of the 'Supreme Being' the SUGMAD. No Mahanta here! Therefore,
> ECKists need only to look to Rebazar (in the lower worlds) and SAT
> NAM on the Inner!
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
> Chela-Chat Chela:
> "It is beautiful. I think the burden of karma sometimes is getting
> too heavy or too thick to work off in one lifetime and they leave
> the path to take a breather. This path is not for sissies, it takes
> a lot of strength, determination and endurance to shovel through
> the mess we have created for ourselves. I have the second initiation
> for 31 years now, actually I got it twice LOL. But good grief, the stuff
> I got into in previous lives... I run into these rattlesnake like pits and
> then I ask the Mahanta how did this happen? and I get the answer in
> a dream. Just lovely. I either had tortured those people or they had
> trusted me and I misled them, or I took advantage of them, there
> seems to be no end of that. But then I look at those rattlesnakes
> around me and I say, I love you and thank you for the opportunity
> to set the record straight. During all this the Mahanta keeps me warm,
> dry and well fed - I actually gained some pounds recently LOL."
>

Hi Etznab,
Sorry that it's taken so long to reply. I've
enjoyed your posts on A.R.E. Yes, this is
all very interesting. I can see why Klemp
doesn't want to reprint PT's books like
Dialogues or Difficulties. I can, also, see
why Klemp and company don't want ECKists
thinking or questioning too much either.
One topic that is, also, off limits are those
regarding 9th Initiates. I'm not even certain
if an ECKist can ask their RESA who the 8ths
are or how many there are! Everything is
kept a secret so that people will be discouraged
from asking even the most simple questions.
I know of RESAs that will Black List ECKists
from getting initiations for asking too many
questions or certain off-limit questions.

Prometheus


--- etznab@... wrote:

>    Interesting post.




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