Klemp's take on the upcoming Eck Spiritual New Year, on PT's
birthdate of Oct. 22, for 2005-2006 is titled "The Year of Giving"
a.k.a. "You Giving and Me Taking" LOL! So, according to HK "only
love and service can make a difference" to Eckists when looking at
the upheavals in the world. This is the Eck Spiritual Exercise of
Burying the Head into the Sand or de-Nile (ancient secret H.I.
technique).

Yes, this is the phoney Mahanta's phoney "Gift." Interesting that
Klemp uses this quote from the Shariyat Book One (in the current
EWWS literature): "The words of the Mahanta alone can change the
world, completely and irrevocably." How do mundane words directed to
only Eckists or to potential "paying" members mean anything to the
world or help to make changes in consciousness? How do "loser"
comments to his chelas spread the message of love?

This review will analyze what Klemp is actually saying, implying,
or Not saying versus what this Sun Valley Eckist is imagining he is
saying. Also, I disagree that "A surprising number of chelas missed
his article." This, also, is an imagined assumption. The truth is
that Klemp really didn't take a stand or say much of anything to
get excited about. It was a typical ho-hum response by a anti-social
farmboy/preacher wannabe who flew under the radar and rode in on
the coat-tails of two scammers that also claimed to be saviors.


********************************************************************

AN ECK SLIDE SHOW FOR MEMBERS ONLY:

"A Warning . . . . .
In the June 2005 issue of the Mystic World Sri Harold warned of the
massive upheaval in the world. A surprising number of chelas missed
his article.

Never before. . .
The Master has never come out with such a strong message. But as
always he offered a solution: 'Only love and service' can make a
difference, he said. 'The future is in your hands and depends upon
you, and others like you' added Sri Harold. (Ask the Master, page 5,
June 2005 Mystic World)

ss - Sun Valley, CA"



*********************************************************************

ASK THE MASTER - JUNE 2005 - THE MYSTIC WORLD OF ECKANKAR

Q: "We now have the ECKANKAR Spiritual Center on the same ground as
the Temple of ECK, the major ECK seminars in Minneapolis, and even
more focus on Vahana work in the RESA structure."

1.) "How will that affect ECKANKAR and the life of the chelas all
over the world--now and in the future?"

2.) "And what about the world in general?"


Me: It seems to me that Klemp is isolating himself and Eckankar.
Instead of spreading out or reaching out through travel to various
cities Klemp is having everything confined to the Minneapolis area.
The volunteer Vahana effort is just a way of giving "busy work"
(trainings, classes, intros, discussions, making plans, organizing,
etc.) so that Eckists will continue to live in the future versus the
now, and remain distracted and tied to the promise of God
Realization through Initiation and position. Anway, let's see how
Klemp answers these two questions.

HK: "Watch to see how this plays out. The future is in your hands
and depends upon you and others like you."

Me: How long does it take to "play out?" Klemp has been the
LEM/Mahanta since 1981! What does HK mean by the future being "in
your hands and depends upon you and others like you?" Are Eckists
supposed to be pro-active for world peace, recycle, use less energy,
or is their higher vibratory rate (consciousness) going to raise
world consciousness? Will having more HU Chants raise world
consciousness?

HK: "Yes, there is a great spiritual significance in that the new
ECKANKAR spiritual Center joins the ECK Temple and chapel on the ECK
campus."

Me: Okay, what is this "great spiritual significance?" Please
explain this and give examples! Also, I always thought that the
true Seat of Power was where ever the LEM/Mahanta resided -
otherwise these are just buildings. What was HK's home address
again? :  )

HK: "Yet that is hardly the beginning and the end of it. Nor is the
fact that this is the Year of the ECK Missionary."

Me: Okay, nothing much said here either. BTW - How did last year
(Year of the Eck Missionary) turn out? What were the results
compared to previous years? Because there should be some great
improvements with the ESC, Temple, chapel, World Wide Seminar, and
Year of the Missionary all bunched together - right?

HK: "Each element is certainly an important part of the whole, BUT
only love and service will make any success come true. So it's up
to you (and you, and you)."

Me: Okay, so was there enough love and service in 2005 to make the
Year of the Missionary a success compared to previous years? It
would be nice to know what the results were and how much donation
money (and how many donated service hours per Vahana) it takes to
bring in a new member. Is it now something like $50 dollars and 25
hours of service per Vahana = one new member? Was this worse than
last year or better? Which local areas spent the most or least money
and/or hours per new member?

HK: "How will this affect the world and all within it?"

Me: Well, this is the question you've been dancing around!

HK: "A quickening of the spiritual currents is in the works. The
purification of Souls will speed up."

Me: Oh, so the LEM/Mahanta will now start to uplift the world
consciousness because the ESC, Temple, chapel, EWWS, and because of
the success of the Vahana effort (finally) and because of all of
those ECK High Initiates and their Higher Consciousness!

HK: "The table of politics, economics, and order in society are
due to turn upside down. There will be unrest of the deepest kind.
BUT you will feel at peace."

Me: What! This seems to be a very negative view of the world and
of life in general. So tell me again of the "great spiritual
significance" of the bundled together Eck compound. Is Klemp going
to build high rise condos for Eckists on the Eckankar property and
wall it in! Will it be wholly self-sufficient with a natural foods
grocery etc., etc.? What will that cost, when will ground breaking
begin, what are the qualifications and restrictions to get on the
list? It's a good thing that (at least) Eckists won't have to
worry and will "feel at peace."

HK: "Something will always be boiling over in human affairs. Yet
sanctuary, peace, and contentment are in ready supply in the higher
states of consciousness."

Me: So does this mean that there won't be an Eck compound and high
rise condos near the ESC or Temple? Is happiness and peace just a
state of mind? How about the rest of the world for all those
Vahanas - what are they to do? Ah, just close your eyes to it all
and HU. Don't worry about the suffering of the non-believers (non-
Eckists) it's their karma! Don't worry about the animals either!
It's karmic! The LEM/Mahanta can't prevent the Kali Yuga or can
he? Can the love of the Mahanta the incarnation of Sugmad intervene?
Well, if he was actually all that he claims he could prevent war or
his presence (and his H.I.'s) could even raise world consciousness -
BUT, Klemp's not really who or what he claims.

HK: "The Spiritual Exercises of ECK are your means to enter them.
They will be your solace. They are the spring-board to love divine,
to a love that excels all other things. Take heart, the sun shines
on all who love God, the ECK, and the Mahanta."

Me: What happened to Sugmad versus God? There is a difference (see
pages 385-386 in HK's Autobiography)! And, which "sun" does Klemp
talk about? The one in this small insignificant solar system! It
seems that Klemp is once again encouraging Eckists to feel and
behave as elitists and to place themselves upon pedestals above
others.

Yes, just do the S.E. of Eck and all will be well in your delusional
and selfish little minds he instructs. Where did Klemp give true
direction or current answers for living in this here and now?
Conflict has always been with mankind, however, consciousness is
slowly increasing. Klemp paints a bleak picture as does other
religious fundamentalists who are anticipating the Rapture or
Armageddon or 72 virgins some other sort of nonsense to exclude
others. Talk is cheap for HK and this type of bible thumper. They
know nothing of true Love or of Spirit. Religious leaders and new
saviors are in the business of seeking followers to trick and scam
for whatever means they see fit and justified to use them for.

Many chelas have heard Klemp's pitiful side-stepping of questions
before and this is another reason for the lack concern. Eckists
have become passive. They did not "miss" this article as the Sun
Valley chela stated. really, is it any wonder that Vahana efforts
are difficult to get off the ground when Klemp encourages Eckists to
hide in a cave and HU themselves to sleep as a solution to the
upheavel in the world! Eckists should ask themselves how they differ
from a pebble. Is the whole Vahana effort to get people to use the
HU as a sort of self-centered mind numbing drug, or to bring in more
annual $$$ memberships? Vahanas are like drug pushers! What good is
Higher Consciousness if it is not used to benefit mankind and and if
it does not raise world or universal consciousness!?

Klemp's answers should really make Eckists re-think the position
Eckankar is taking in this world.

Prometheus

This is a re-post from Jan. 2, 2006--thought it should be brought to
the front again for anyone new who hasn't seen it or perhaps to
rehash it a bit more! : )

*************************

This is a very enlightening excerpt from HK's new book, "Those
Wonderful Eck Masters," Chapter 11, The Mahanta, the Living ECK
Master--A Modern Prophet SRI Harold Klemp (Wah Z), page 211.

As with the infamous postal worker story, once again HK shows his
unloving and nasty side. In this case, if you dare to challenge HK's
authority or complain, this is what he calls you and this is what he
thinks of you, this so called loving spiritual leader!

Read it and weep or read it and laugh--maybe, it's a combination of
both, but HK demands respect and if he doesn't get it, watch out!

Here's the excerpt:

"Belief in the Master's ever-present company relies upon an
individual's degree of unfoldment. Actual inner experiences help one
move to a greater understanding of the ways of divine revelation.
But if he chooses to hang on to shopworn karmic debts due to, say,
an inability to control some mental passion or habit like anger,
then his spiritual momentum stops. It's that simple. Of course, a
headstrong follower always tries to fix blame on the Mahanta, the
Living ECK Master when his attempts to advance in ECK come to
nothing."

"But such an attitude changes nothing. The individual is a loser and
will continue to be a loser until he adopts the practices of a
winner."

"I'm used to such misdirected slings. They go with my position. I
realize that at some point an individual will break free of his
holding pattern and again soar higher. It's when he's seen that all
responsibility for his unfoldment lies with him alone."

####

Interesting comments by HK. . .

First, HK will not take the responsibility for a member's inability
to advance in ECK, but yet despite this, HK expects the frustrated
chela to continue to follow HK's leadership. HK claims the chela
is being "headstrong"--uncooperative!

Second, if the chela dares to blame HK for his not advancing in ECK,
HK calls him a loser. So, the seeker not only is disappointed that
ECK is not working for him, but now he is being called a loser by
the big Spiritual Leader, Mr. Klemp! Slap!

Third, but then HK explains in the end that the seeker's ability to
unfold lies within himself--this is the truth the seeker must
discover. So, then, of course, I have to ask why does one need
those "wonderful eck masters?" It seems obvious in this "truthful"
statement that they are not needed at all. And, how about that karma
HK is supposed to be taking on for his chelas? How is it that this
karma and negativity which caused the lack of advancement was not
corrected by the all powerful Mahanta?

Well, here again these are just more confusing statements and also
unloving comments by Harold Klemp. Where is HK's loving heart in
this writing? Answer: It's not there! He demands respect and
obedience--of course, he says he's used to those who complain, but
yet if he is, why does he call them "losers?" I wonder why such an
authority and world spiritual leader LOL like HK can't just find and
take the higher road!

Mish

Hi, All!

I read a question on an eck chat site by a "new" eckist. This fellow
is waiting for his 2nd initiation to come soon. He feels it's about
to happen because he believes he's developing a "very strong
relationship to the Inner Master." I don't think this guy realizes
the drill though and maybe someone will clue him in on the
initiations--the nuts and bolts of it. If he has had a paid
membership for two years, then the next step is to call the ESC and
tell them he wants the 2nd initiation. If he doesn't ask, it won't
come! And, of course, if you don't keep paying your membership dues,
it won't come either! It all comes with $$$$ being paid.  LOL!

He also posed a question. He said, "I have read Those Wonderful ECK
Masters, and I enjoyed it. But my question is this - I have not had
any inner experiences with these Masters. While I enjoy reading the
stories of what they have done for us, I don't have any particular
attachment to them. My faith seems to be growing in Harji's
teachings, and the inner experiences I am having. So... do these
relationships to the other Masters happen over time? Is it necessary
that I cultivate relationships with them, or is my relationship to
the current Living ECK Master and the Mahanta enough?"

This confused newbie eckist didn't seem to comprehend Harold's book
very well. It is a manual in how to self-brainwash oneself into
believing the the eck masters are real. At the end of each chapter
in the book "Those Wonderful ECK Masters", Harold instructs with a
specific exercise that will "assist" the seeker in believing he is
having an experience with an eck master.

Here's one of the spiritual exercises from the book that Harold
offers on conjuring up Rebazar, page 117:

"A Spiritual Exercise to Meet Rebazar Tarzs

Relax in contemplation with eyes shut. Picture yourself on a beach,
walking in sand at the ocean's edge. The warm waters dance about
your feet, and a light ocean spray splashes a refreshing coolness on
your face. Overhead, silent white gulls sail upon the wind.

Now breathe in as the waves gently wash toward you. Then, on the
outgoing breath, sing Rebazar (REE-bah-zahr) softly in rhythm with
the waves fleeing back to the sea. Do this exercise twenty to thirty
minutes a day. After you're skilled at it, Rebazar or another ECK
Master will come and impart the wisdom of God to you."

(CAUTION: Do not look at a picture of Osama bin Laden prior to this
spiritual exercise! LOL!)

Harold further comments, "At first you may feel you have met Rebazar
or one of the ECK Masters only in your imagination. But with time
and practice, you will find they are real people just like you."

Yes, all a chela need do is learn how to become delusional--Harold
knows all the tricks to train these seekers. Keep working at this
exercise and the imagination will latch on to some sort of image
that one can then believe is "real." Very simple and elementary--but
a chela will first have to want to believe this crap.

I feel sorry for the newbie (naive) eckist asking his question. He
sounds sincere and in need, but the path he's walking will take him
down the deep, dark stairway of deception, lies and delusion. This
is the harm that HK and the eck org bestow upon trusting Souls!

Mish

WOW, This was posted on Hu-chat earlier today... I bet this really
pleases Frugal Harold Klemp.  LOL  Wonder why they just didn't ask to
use his old Goodwill neck ties? Sorry but I just don't see any real
spiritual meat in this exercise, do you?  :-?

------------------------------


A Youth Arahata (ECK teacher) described a fabulous
idea today and I just had to share it. He said that
he and his assistant decided to teach kids around
junior high age about karmic ties. They got an idea
to go to a used clothing store and buy a bunch of
old neckties (very cheap, as not that many guys wear
ties these days). They told the kids in the class to
take a necktie and find someone to be their
"karmic partner." Then they had to knot the ties
together. Next, they took a pair of scissors and actually
physically cut the ties! The kids loved the activity,
and they will always remember that lesson, I think.
I'll bet that this would be a neat activity for adults,
too. LOL Just had to share.

I was thinking a little more about this so called Spiritual exercise
The Ties that Bind, created to show an example of cutting karmic
ties.

You know, this doesn't surprise me really that some of these eckies
would find this to be a perfect example of how to cut ties.  A lot
of what the teachings focus on is cutting ties...  to family,
friends, life...  so this is just one more sad way to brainwash
small children (any children) into thinking it is a goal to cut your
ties from everything...  I am surprised they didn't come up with
some sort of "tie" in, where they should cute all ties except those
to the wonderful eck masters, and the current god man of the entire
universe!

I would like to share a "better" Spritual exercise that I would
encourage any parent/s to use while attempting to show an example
that WE ARE ALL CONNECTED. (NOT DISCONNECTED!) I found a lovely book
while I was still an eckie, that I felt was far better in teaching
children about spirituality. The book is titled, Nurturing
Spirituality in Children, by Peggy J. Jenkins, PH.D.

This exercise would go over far better in most age groups, than the
neck tie that binds! Besides, they get to take home a cool project
too!


From page 14:
"We are all connected"

Materials: A variety of beads or buttons with two or four holes (not
shanks) and a long piece of cord or string. With a group of
children, use individual strings, or each child could add beads to
one very log string.

Lesson:  In this lesson the cord represents Spirit, or God, the
beads are our individuality, or our individualiztion of Spirit, and
the colors, shapes, and textures represent our different
personalities and appearances.

Have the children choose beads or buttons to place on the string and
a person who each bead represents, such as Dad, Uncle, Nana, baby
sister, teacher, mail carrier, (spouse of partner), themselves. Each
bead or button should have a different feel and look, just as each
person does.

Lead the children to see that all these people have something in
common -- a common thread at the center of their being.  This cord,
which connects us like the string that connects all the buttons or
beads, could be called Spirit. People have many names for it, and it
is at the center of everyone. Make sure they know you are not
talking about the center of the physical body.

"It is good to look beyond the beads' colors and shapes or beyond
people's different appearances and personalities and to know that
way inside, at the center or core of us, we are all the same.  This
core is perfect and is the most important part of us. If we look at
people as if they are like beads with different colors and shapes,
we can feel very seperate and differnet from others. But if we
remember that we are all connected by the cord of Spirit, we can
feel close to others. We can choose to look for this center of
perfection within people rather than looking at just the outer
person."

If appropriate, take a few minutes for the children to still their
minds, go within, and feel that cord of love, peace, and perfection.

Suggested Affirmation:
I look for the perfection in others.


> ------------------------------
>
>
> A Youth Arahata (ECK teacher) described a fabulous
> idea today and I just had to share it. He said that
> he and his assistant decided to teach kids around
> junior high age about karmic ties. They got an idea
> to go to a used clothing store and buy a bunch of
> old neckties (very cheap, as not that many guys wear
> ties these days). They told the kids in the class to
> take a necktie and find someone to be their
> "karmic partner." Then they had to knot the ties
> together. Next, they took a pair of scissors and actually
> physically cut the ties! The kids loved the activity,
> and they will always remember that lesson, I think.
> I'll bet that this would be a neat activity for adults,
> too. LOL Just had to share.
>

Hi Liz,
I'm not surprised to see this caliber of Eck Spiritual Exercise
being used in an Eck Children's Satsang Class. "As Above So Below"
is how it works in the demented and delusional Spiritual Hierarchy
of Eckankar.

IMO Klemp's mental problems stem from his childhood and his lack of
personality development and, therefore, result in his current
Personality Disorders. It would be impossible to diagnose his
multible and overlapping mental disorders precisely and without
several consults, however, he has given enough information to form
some general and preliminary conclusions. Here are (merely) three
definitions [taken from the DSM-IV] that seem to correspond to HK's
comments and behaviors over the years.

"SCHIZOID PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of detachment from
social relationships and a restricted range of emotional expression."

"SCHIZOTYPAL PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of acute discomfort
in close relationships, cognitive or personal distortions, and
eccentricities of behavior."

"NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of grandiousity,
need for admiration, and lack of empathy."

Therefore, is it any wonder that many Eckists, by emulating their
master and following his example, have also emulated and followed
HK's mental instability and negative behaviors as well!

Eckankar in general and Klemp in particular promote mental
instability through delusional and anti-social standards and
requirements which are necessary in order to become an attached
follower (chela) who needs the "fix" from a savior/Mahanta. It's a
scam that gives many socially unstable and mentally unstable
indiviuals a safe place to hide and appear "normal" by Eck
standards.

Therefore, Eckankar has a two fold problem. 1.) Spiritual Seekers
who are relatively mentally healthy and stable or "normal" tend to
become adversely influenced by the nutty behavior and attitudes that
Klemp has deemed "superior normal."  2.) Those Eckists that already
had mental disorders prior to joing Eckankar are now put in jeopardy
of having the problems of these disorders increased upon and
expanded due to various accepted Eck practices. Using herbal
remedies versus prescription drugs and using other alternative New
Age solutions is not always best for some people, but there is a
strong desire for Eckists to conform fit-in. Also, doing a
contemplation is not the best advice to give someone who is Bi-polar!

Yes, it is interesting that Eckists are so eager to conform to what
they are told is of a higher consciousness. However, is the non-
comformity of some Eckists just them "acting out" due to what is
expected in Eckankar and by emulating Klemp's mental instability or
to their own mental instability? These are just more questions that
many Eckists are afraid to ask while others remain in denial of the
truth.

Prometheus





"Elizabeth" wrote:

I was thinking a little more about this so called Spiritual exercise
The Ties that Bind, created to show an example of cutting karmic
ties.

You know, this doesn't surprise me really that some of these eckies
would find this to be a perfect example of how to cut ties.  A lot
of what the teachings focus on is cutting ties...  to family,
friends, life...  so this is just one more sad way to brainwash
small children (any children) into thinking it is a goal to cut your
ties from everything...  I am surprised they didn't come up with
some sort of "tie" in, where they should cute all ties except those
to the wonderful eck masters, and the current god man of the entire
universe!

I would like to share a "better" Spritual exercise that I would
encourage any parent/s to use while attempting to show an example
that WE ARE ALL CONNECTED. (NOT DISCONNECTED!) I found a lovely book
while I was still an eckie, that I felt was far better in teaching
children about spirituality. The book is titled, Nurturing
Spirituality in Children, by Peggy J. Jenkins, PH.D.

This exercise would go over far better in most age groups, than the
neck tie that binds! Besides, they get to take home a cool project
too!


From page 14:
"We are all connected"

Materials: A variety of beads or buttons with two or four holes (not
shanks) and a long piece of cord or string. With a group of
children, use individual strings, or each child could add beads to
one very log string.

Lesson: In this lesson the cord represents Spirit, or God, the
beads are our individuality, or our individualiztion of Spirit, and
the colors, shapes, and textures represent our different
personalities and appearances.

Have the children choose beads or buttons to place on the string and
a person who each bead represents, such as Dad, Uncle, Nana, baby
sister, teacher, mail carrier, (spouse of partner), themselves. Each
bead or button should have a different feel and look, just as each
person does.

Lead the children to see that all these people have something in
common -- a common thread at the center of their being. This cord,
which connects us like the string that connects all the buttons or
beads, could be called Spirit. People have many names for it, and it
is at the center of everyone. Make sure they know you are not
talking about the center of the physical body.

"It is good to look beyond the beads' colors and shapes or beyond
people's different appearances and personalities and to know that
way inside, at the center or core of us, we are all the same.  This
core is perfect and is the most important part of us. If we look at
people as if they are like beads with different colors and shapes,
we can feel very seperate and differnet from others. But if we
remember that we are all connected by the cord of Spirit, we can
feel close to others. We can choose to look for this center of
perfection within people rather than looking at just the outer
person."

If appropriate, take a few minutes for the children to still their
minds, go within, and feel that cord of love, peace, and perfection.

Suggested Affirmation:
I look for the perfection in others.


------------------------------
*[From HU-Chat, an unofficial official Eck Site]

A Youth Arahata (ECK teacher) described a fabulous
idea today and I just had to share it. He said that
he and his assistant decided to teach kids around
junior high age about karmic ties. They got an idea
to go to a used clothing store and buy a bunch of
old neckties (very cheap, as not that many guys wear
ties these days). They told the kids in the class to
take a necktie and find someone to be their
"karmic partner." Then they had to knot the ties
together. Next, they took a pair of scissors and actually
physically cut the ties! The kids loved the activity,
and they will always remember that lesson, I think.
I'll bet that this would be a neat activity for adults,
too. LOL Just had to share.

Yes, the Schizoid type is why some eckists experience questioning or
rational thinking/critical thinking as the other person's "hatred" and
"anger", etc.. They are in fact Projecting their own rage onto anyone
who challenges their delusional belief system based on the
saviour/mahanta complex. <gg> I wonder what klemp would do if he met
another godman from a similar path as eckankult? Well, the other
godman would just have to be kal or satan or of the negative worlds,
and so on. Maybe they would do us all a favor and destroy each other. lol

Non ;  )

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Liz,
> I'm not surprised to see this caliber of Eck Spiritual Exercise
> being used in an Eck Children's Satsang Class. "As Above So Below"
> is how it works in the demented and delusional Spiritual Hierarchy
> of Eckankar.
>
> IMO Klemp's mental problems stem from his childhood and his lack of
> personality development and, therefore, result in his current
> Personality Disorders. It would be impossible to diagnose his
> multible and overlapping mental disorders precisely and without
> several consults, however, he has given enough information to form
> some general and preliminary conclusions. Here are (merely) three
> definitions [taken from the DSM-IV] that seem to correspond to HK's
> comments and behaviors over the years.
>
> "SCHIZOID PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of detachment from
> social relationships and a restricted range of emotional expression."
>
> "SCHIZOTYPAL PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of acute discomfort
> in close relationships, cognitive or personal distortions, and
> eccentricities of behavior."
>
> "NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of grandiousity,
> need for admiration, and lack of empathy."
>
> Therefore, is it any wonder that many Eckists, by emulating their
> master and following his example, have also emulated and followed
> HK's mental instability and negative behaviors as well!
>
> Eckankar in general and Klemp in particular promote mental
> instability through delusional and anti-social standards and
> requirements which are necessary in order to become an attached
> follower (chela) who needs the "fix" from a savior/Mahanta. It's a
> scam that gives many socially unstable and mentally unstable
> indiviuals a safe place to hide and appear "normal" by Eck
> standards.
>
> Therefore, Eckankar has a two fold problem. 1.) Spiritual Seekers
> who are relatively mentally healthy and stable or "normal" tend to
> become adversely influenced by the nutty behavior and attitudes that
> Klemp has deemed "superior normal."  2.) Those Eckists that already
> had mental disorders prior to joing Eckankar are now put in jeopardy
> of having the problems of these disorders increased upon and
> expanded due to various accepted Eck practices. Using herbal
> remedies versus prescription drugs and using other alternative New
> Age solutions is not always best for some people, but there is a
> strong desire for Eckists to conform fit-in. Also, doing a
> contemplation is not the best advice to give someone who is Bi-polar!
>
> Yes, it is interesting that Eckists are so eager to conform to what
> they are told is of a higher consciousness. However, is the non-
> comformity of some Eckists just them "acting out" due to what is
> expected in Eckankar and by emulating Klemp's mental instability or
> to their own mental instability? These are just more questions that
> many Eckists are afraid to ask while others remain in denial of the
> truth.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
>
> "Elizabeth" wrote:
>
> I was thinking a little more about this so called Spiritual exercise
> The Ties that Bind, created to show an example of cutting karmic
> ties.
>
> You know, this doesn't surprise me really that some of these eckies
> would find this to be a perfect example of how to cut ties.  A lot
> of what the teachings focus on is cutting ties...  to family,
> friends, life...  so this is just one more sad way to brainwash
> small children (any children) into thinking it is a goal to cut your
> ties from everything...  I am surprised they didn't come up with
> some sort of "tie" in, where they should cute all ties except those
> to the wonderful eck masters, and the current god man of the entire
> universe!
>
> I would like to share a "better" Spritual exercise that I would
> encourage any parent/s to use while attempting to show an example
> that WE ARE ALL CONNECTED. (NOT DISCONNECTED!) I found a lovely book
> while I was still an eckie, that I felt was far better in teaching
> children about spirituality. The book is titled, Nurturing
> Spirituality in Children, by Peggy J. Jenkins, PH.D.
>
> This exercise would go over far better in most age groups, than the
> neck tie that binds! Besides, they get to take home a cool project
> too!
>
>
> From page 14:
> "We are all connected"
>
> Materials: A variety of beads or buttons with two or four holes (not
> shanks) and a long piece of cord or string. With a group of
> children, use individual strings, or each child could add beads to
> one very log string.
>
> Lesson: In this lesson the cord represents Spirit, or God, the
> beads are our individuality, or our individualiztion of Spirit, and
> the colors, shapes, and textures represent our different
> personalities and appearances.
>
> Have the children choose beads or buttons to place on the string and
> a person who each bead represents, such as Dad, Uncle, Nana, baby
> sister, teacher, mail carrier, (spouse of partner), themselves. Each
> bead or button should have a different feel and look, just as each
> person does.
>
> Lead the children to see that all these people have something in
> common -- a common thread at the center of their being. This cord,
> which connects us like the string that connects all the buttons or
> beads, could be called Spirit. People have many names for it, and it
> is at the center of everyone. Make sure they know you are not
> talking about the center of the physical body.
>
> "It is good to look beyond the beads' colors and shapes or beyond
> people's different appearances and personalities and to know that
> way inside, at the center or core of us, we are all the same.  This
> core is perfect and is the most important part of us. If we look at
> people as if they are like beads with different colors and shapes,
> we can feel very seperate and differnet from others. But if we
> remember that we are all connected by the cord of Spirit, we can
> feel close to others. We can choose to look for this center of
> perfection within people rather than looking at just the outer
> person."
>
> If appropriate, take a few minutes for the children to still their
> minds, go within, and feel that cord of love, peace, and perfection.
>
> Suggested Affirmation:
> I look for the perfection in others.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *[From HU-Chat, an unofficial official Eck Site]
>
> A Youth Arahata (ECK teacher) described a fabulous
> idea today and I just had to share it. He said that
> he and his assistant decided to teach kids around
> junior high age about karmic ties. They got an idea
> to go to a used clothing store and buy a bunch of
> old neckties (very cheap, as not that many guys wear
> ties these days). They told the kids in the class to
> take a necktie and find someone to be their
> "karmic partner." Then they had to knot the ties
> together. Next, they took a pair of scissors and actually
> physically cut the ties! The kids loved the activity,
> and they will always remember that lesson, I think.
> I'll bet that this would be a neat activity for adults,
> too. LOL Just had to share.
>

Actually, two godman meeting would be the same as two "zeros". lol
kind of like in Algebra where "0" X "0" = "0" . Or zero times any
number equals zero. Naught is Naught, right? In other words, DELUSION
(a persistent, false, psychotic belief).

Non ; )

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non ekster"
<eckchains@...> wrote:
>
Re: Klemp's Personality Traits Trickle Down to His Chelas

Yes, the Schizoid type is why some eckists experience questioning or
rational thinking/critical thinking as the other person's "hatred" and
"anger", etc.. They are in fact Projecting their own rage onto anyone
who challenges their delusional belief system based on the
saviour/mahanta complex. <gg> I wonder what klemp would do if he met
another godman from a similar path as eckankult? Well, the other
godman would just have to be kal or satan or of the negative worlds,
and so on. Maybe they would do us all a favor and destroy each other. lol

Non ; )

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Liz,
> I'm not surprised to see this caliber of Eck Spiritual Exercise
> being used in an Eck Children's Satsang Class. "As Above So Below"
> is how it works in the demented and delusional Spiritual Hierarchy
> of Eckankar.
>
> IMO Klemp's mental problems stem from his childhood and his lack of
> personality development and, therefore, result in his current
> Personality Disorders. It would be impossible to diagnose his
> multible and overlapping mental disorders precisely and without
> several consults, however, he has given enough information to form
> some general and preliminary conclusions. Here are (merely) three
> definitions [taken from the DSM-IV] that seem to correspond to HK's
> comments and behaviors over the years.
>
> "SCHIZOID PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of detachment from
> social relationships and a restricted range of emotional expression."
>
> "SCHIZOTYPAL PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of acute discomfort
> in close relationships, cognitive or personal distortions, and
> eccentricities of behavior."
>
> "NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER is a pattern of grandiousity,
> need for admiration, and lack of empathy."
>
> Therefore, is it any wonder that many Eckists, by emulating their
> master and following his example, have also emulated and followed
> HK's mental instability and negative behaviors as well!
>
> Eckankar in general and Klemp in particular promote mental
> instability through delusional and anti-social standards and
> requirements which are necessary in order to become an attached
> follower (chela) who needs the "fix" from a savior/Mahanta. It's a
> scam that gives many socially unstable and mentally unstable
> indiviuals a safe place to hide and appear "normal" by Eck
> standards.
>
> Therefore, Eckankar has a two fold problem. 1.) Spiritual Seekers
> who are relatively mentally healthy and stable or "normal" tend to
> become adversely influenced by the nutty behavior and attitudes that
> Klemp has deemed "superior normal." 2.) Those Eckists that already
> had mental disorders prior to joing Eckankar are now put in jeopardy
> of having the problems of these disorders increased upon and
> expanded due to various accepted Eck practices. Using herbal
> remedies versus prescription drugs and using other alternative New
> Age solutions is not always best for some people, but there is a
> strong desire for Eckists to conform fit-in. Also, doing a
> contemplation is not the best advice to give someone who is Bi-polar!
>
> Yes, it is interesting that Eckists are so eager to conform to what
> they are told is of a higher consciousness. However, is the non-
> comformity of some Eckists just them "acting out" due to what is
> expected in Eckankar and by emulating Klemp's mental instability or
> to their own mental instability? These are just more questions that
> many Eckists are afraid to ask while others remain in denial of the
> truth.
>
> Prometheus
>
>
>
>
>
> "Elizabeth" wrote:
>
> I was thinking a little more about this so called Spiritual exercise
> The Ties that Bind, created to show an example of cutting karmic
> ties.
>
> You know, this doesn't surprise me really that some of these eckies
> would find this to be a perfect example of how to cut ties. A lot
> of what the teachings focus on is cutting ties... to family,
> friends, life... so this is just one more sad way to brainwash
> small children (any children) into thinking it is a goal to cut your
> ties from everything... I am surprised they didn't come up with
> some sort of "tie" in, where they should cute all ties except those
> to the wonderful eck masters, and the current god man of the entire
> universe!
>
> I would like to share a "better" Spritual exercise that I would
> encourage any parent/s to use while attempting to show an example
> that WE ARE ALL CONNECTED. (NOT DISCONNECTED!) I found a lovely book
> while I was still an eckie, that I felt was far better in teaching
> children about spirituality. The book is titled, Nurturing
> Spirituality in Children, by Peggy J. Jenkins, PH.D.
>
> This exercise would go over far better in most age groups, than the
> neck tie that binds! Besides, they get to take home a cool project
> too!
>
>.........

Hello all,

I wanted to re post a message I saw over on the Conversations With
Twitchell Yahoo Group. The individual that posted this goes by the
Yahoo ID of TuzaHu.  It is a response to the topic entitled "Those
Wonderful Eck Masters".  This person is addressing a "Detractor"
comment made by an HI Clergy member by the name of Rich Smith, aka
Cyber Sailor Rich, sailing the cosmic sea of eckankrap with his
signature cyber sailboat.  LOL


Quote:

"Detractor." What a strong name that is to call someone. When in fact
they've grown in their own power and towards their own light in
their own path.
Because it threatens some that they can go on their own and stand on
their
own they have to be called a name. Detractor.

When I got into Eck Paul had it set up for one Initiation. That's it.
Later he changed it as the chelas asked for a spiritual yardstick to
judge their
'growth' by. The initiations were created. Then, once one was a 5th
initiate he was free to go on his own as a spiritual adept. After
Paul it was
Darwin that changed the path that if money was not sent in on a
regular basis
the
initiations were dropped, or stripped, as the chela didn't make a
monetary
'donation' to the church as proof of their dedication the
initiations were no
longer valid. Strange that one's own growth and power in one's own
life always
eyed by the inner master wasn't good enough. The outer needed that
check in
the mail to be of a special initiation.

Three times a year I'd get a print out mailed to me of people ready
for their
next initiation and I put Yes or No next to their name and mailed it
in, the
Yes people got pink slips, the No people didn't. On occasion I saw
Bernadine
Berlin, Darwin's secretary fill out the pink slips of people I
suggested were
ready, on two occasions she handed me the blank pink slips and I
filled in
names and initiations for those I thought were ready for the next
level.

Those initiations are the carrot at the end of the stick that keeps
the
donkey cart moving. Paul didn't want them in the beginning. I think
he knew
what they could do to students, striving for a number not a way of
life.
Things
change. Now if you don't send in your payment for so many years you
are
stripped of all initiations except for the second. Funny how a soul
can spiral
downward without the physical body writing checks on a regular basis
to keep
it in lofty levels of awareness, isn't it. I guess the Friday Fast
and doing
good deeds isn't enough. That check needs to be in the mail to find
God.

My perception from the beginning was Paul had a good idea. You get
into
Eckankar, learn your lessons and get out. When the Initiations were
set up you
got them at the World Wide Seminar every year. You show up in Vegas
in
October for Paul's Birthday and you got the present. They were gang
initiations,
groups of people got the initiation at the same time. If you didn't
show up
you didn't get zapped. You show up you got zapped. Very simple. I
remember watching the beginning of a group of 16 people get their
5th initiation
in
Las Vegas, it was 1968 or 1969. I was mesmerized that all those self
aware
souls were being created. Some jumped initiations from their 2 or 3
to their
5th. If the area 'needed' a Mahdis they got zapped. Poof, you're self
realized, go enroll others in the path.

One special thing I've learned in my years of Eckankar is this. The
best
place to hide lies is in a pack of truth. Cleopatra had the poison
snake in a
sweet basket of figs. It makes the bitter slide down so much more
easily.
It takes the sting out of the bitter medicine. It soothes the
intelligence
by so much making sense that you just accept what would normally be
red flags.
It's advertising.

Just thoughts. Not making accusations. I cherish my years in
Eckankar.
I cherish the lessons I learned and people I met. I had a great
time. It
kept me off drugs in my youth, I learned to focus on one thing at a
time, I
learned to stand tall in my own truth and even when told that God
Itself would
not
approve I didn't go up in a puff of smoke, but grew and flourished
in my own
way. I learned a lot in Eckankar.

Hello all,

I found this on huchat lately:

QUOTE
If I was completely sure, I wouldn't need the
Mahanta.

UNQUOTE

Me: WOW I say! LOL! Does this mean that the mahanta is merely a
crutch? I think it does! LOL!

Another chela answered to this:

Quote:
Weeeelll... I am not so certain about that <G>
Personally, the definition of the word "need" is fairly important
here. I
"Need" oxygen for my physical body to survive, and my view of the
relationship with the Mahanta is really the same as my physical
bodies need
for oxygen. "I" would survive, because Soul is Eternal... but at a
diminished, less functional level.

We also need to look at the aspect of WHAT the Mahanta is... Are we
talking
the Primordial "matrix" that is the doorway to concsiousness? Are we
talking
about the individual who wears the consciousness?

Regardless of the above definitions... Truth is, the greater the
inner
certainty that has grown within myself, the MORE I need the inner
connection
to the Mahanta. It is like breathing, something I really don't have
to think
about or consider, and it is a trust that the presence of the ECK is
there,
sustaining me.

I could get all technical and point out that the Mahanta is not "Sri
Harold"
per se, and that he is the present representative of the energy of
the
primordial Mahanta, etc. etc. But really, it is like jam on the
buttered
toast... You get it all to enjoy.

UNQUOTE

Me: Well, I certainly wouldn't want to breathe the mahanta! LOL!And
yes, I have heard the "technical" explanation of who the mahanta is
a thousand times, said it myself even ... but the thing is - I just
don't believe it! It's HK who is being worshipped and not
his "consciousness"! Why would chelas say then that "in his talk,
the mahanta said this and that ... the mahanta didn't look well"
etc. etc. if it was NOT HK they meant??!

Ingrid

FYI- One Does Not need to be a Site Member to Post Messages
Anonymously, or to Read the Archives, or View the LINKS. However,
detractors and other Eck thugs who attempt to spam the site, and/or
distract from the purpose described in the front page mission
statement will have their posts Deleted from Pending Messages.

Below are my comments to Klemps nutty "wisdom."

09/2006 The Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp

HK: "Mary went into contemplation and asked what was behind all her
earlier relationships. They were made up of the usual stuff--full of
agony, ecstasy, drama, and disenchantment."

*ME: I'm certain that Klemp is viewing her letter through his own
distorted perspective. This is Not the "Usual Stuff" of dreams.
Klemp has just been reading the ones that stand out to Eckists and
has assumed that these unusual ones are common! This, also, shows
how out-of-touch Klemp is with reality.

HK: "Then, parading before her eyes, came a column of people from
this lifetime. There were her parents, siblings, classmates,
friends, lovers, spouses, children, coworkers, and so many more.
Mary noticed that in all these relationships she had just wanted
love. That was it."

*ME: Once again, Klemp is projecting his own distorted views of life
as he interprets her dream. Klemp is probably the one that has
always "just wanted love" but doesn't know how to go about it due to
his previously mentioned personality disorders relating back to his
childhood.

HK: "And yet, this need for love always left her at the mercy of
others, and to their reactions."

*ME: See, Klemp thinks that giving love leaves one "at the mercy of
others!" And, what kind of "reactions" is he implying? It seems that
Klemp is implying that Negative reactions will occur if one gives
love unconditionally. However, should one always expect or demand
that love be returned or even returned in the ways we want or can
see? If so, then the love given was Not unconditional or given
freely in the first place!

HK: "How much was that like slavery."

*ME: And what is the purpose of this statement? Is this just another
wishy-washy ploy to change the subject or to seem empathetic? One is
not a "slave" to love. However, one can become attached to habits
and expectations. But, I guarantee that if one gives love freely and
unconditionally that it will be returned by most individuals and
certainly by Spirit.

HK: "And yet, through all she's learned in ECKANKAR, she is clear
about the special gift that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master and
all the other ECK Masters bring to people. The Masters show how to
find divine love."

*ME: It's interesting how Klemp avoids practicing love with real
people. Instead, Klemp talks of an imagined concept of "divine love"
that is absent of real people. Therefore, family members, friends,
co-workers (non-Eckists), etc. are excluded from this "divine love."
In Eckankar this spiritual technique is termed "The Easy Way."

HK: "This involves a working relationship with the ECK (Holy
Spirit). that, then, opens the door to spiritual freedom and means
becoming an open channel for the ECK."

*ME: True "spiritual freedom" comes through Self-Mastery and Not
Needing a delusional and unloving "master/savior" to follow around
and hanging onto every ridiculous statement coming from his smiling
little mouth!

HK: "That is the sum of what living is all about."

*ME: See! Klemp has No clue about love or about living! He's been a
recluse since childhood. He's always hidden out and been anti-social
and lacked empathy and love. This is a part of his psychopathy.
Being the LEM just gives him an excuse for his nutty behaviour.

HK: "So all true ECK initiates know they're to be open channels for
the Holy Spirit. Of course, their service takes place in society.
They--you--are working in a sea of consciousness, bright lights in a
dark world."

*ME: So, does this mean that Klemp is promoting a one-on-one Vahana
effort versus intros and public book discussions and psychic fairs?
Also, who are the "true" ECK initiates? Do these "true" Eckists also
follow the never-ending Guidelines and the unspoken rules of conduct
without question? BTW- I recently found a 1972 copyright of the Manu
Samhita-The Code of Ethics which contained even more rules! And,
let's Not forget the Four Zoas!

HK: "You are also quite aware that this sea of consciousness is
forever changing."

*ME: "Consciousness is forever changing" for those of us still
operating in the field of action and truly living life! However, it
seems that Higher Consciousness has eluded Klemp since he seems to
be stuck in a time warp of past events. His unresolved issues
steming from his inability to relate to others or to society has
distorted his perspectives in every facet of life. He now hides in
his delusional little construct of reality based upon a blend of
revised Radhasoami and Christian dogma called Eckankar.

HK: "A way to trace this change is to observe a society's
innovations, its inventions or new developments in thought, better
technical and practical devices, and also in its music."

*ME: So, is Klemp now going to bring us up-to-date and relate some
Be Here Now philosophy and advice along with some current views on
music for the 21st Century? Not a chance!

HK: "A society's thinkers come up with ideas about what laws
underlie existence and how an individual ought to conduct himself.
The ancient Greeks--like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle--led the way
for how Western society would arrange its thoughts in the coming
centuries."

*ME: "Western society?" Oh, I guess Klemp means European society.

HK: "Music, some say, mirrors an age. So in the Western tradition we
see the likes of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven."

*ME: Well as far as classical music goes Bach is my favorite and
Mozart is next. I really don't care much for Beethoven, although, I
do like his 9th. Does Klemp know that Beethoven suffered from
serious depression?

HK: "Bach echoed the idea that all music was from God, so it should
glorify Him. He composed in the wake of the Reformation, when
Protestants had led the renewal of the Christian church, bringing it
back closer to its roots in New Testament times."

*ME: I think that Johnny Cash also "echoed" similar concepts of God,
although, I'm not being very current in mentioning Johnny!

HK: "Mozart followed close on the heels of Bach, who had died six
years before. As usual, there was political unheaval in Europe,
including the Seven Years' War. BUT Mozart, an Austrian, mirrored
his society's desire for harmony, which he expressed in the use of
melody in compositions. A listener of Mozart will find that his
music often lends itself to humming along."

*ME: Yes, I often enjoy "humming along" while listening to Mozart!
LOL! I especially enjoy "humming" to his Piano Concertos Nos. 9 &
21! Sometimes I even conduct! Isn't it interesting how Klemp
distorts history as he puts his own warped Mahanta/savior slant on
truth.

HK: "Beethoven's music reflects the Enlightenment. The church and
belief in God took a backseat to rationalism. Man's reason was now
superior to the power of religion and superstition."

*ME: I must say that Klemp certainly doesn't take a backseat to
rationalizing, therefore, his ability to reason is certainly in
question. Why does he need to revisit the past so often? I think he
enjoys manipulating history by adding his "High" opinions as though
his views are important to the rest of the world. Sadly for him,
only his deluded and mindless followers believe this tripe!

HK: "When Beethoven stepped from the wings, his music stressed self-
expression. He wrote music to please himself, not God or society. In
fact, after beating a piano into submission while playing one of his
pieces to an audience, he'd hector the listeners for not having the
wit to understand what the composition was all about. People loved
his music anyway."

*ME: And now Klemp beats his chelas into submission through the Law
of Silence, Guidelines upon guidelines, Zoas, and rules of behaviour
and by calling them "losers." BTW- only the brainwashed and truely
delusional Eckists can love this agent for the Kal. Eckists need to
see that they are the true Master.

HK: "As the centuries roll by, then, we note how certain key people
change societies to come. You know full well, too, that such changes
in consciousness need an igniting spark."

*ME: And, is Klemp being modest by only "implying" that he is
this "igniting spark?" It seems Klemp has learned a lot from
Twitchell in regards to self-promotion.

HK: "What is this spark? The spark is the spiritual hierarchy. This
includes the ECK Masters as well as the Lords of Karma."

*ME: See, Klemp is giving credit for "this spark" to the "spiritual
hierarchy." However, isn't Klemp listed under SUGMAD in the Eck
Spiritual Hierarchy. Now in the Eckankar LexiCon the ECK is mention
prior to the Mahanta, but Klemp claims to be the ECK! Catch-22 Again!

HK: "The Lords of Karma certainly play an important role, because it
is they who select the Souls to see rebirth into a given age, to
help mankind enter a new level of consciousness. BUT whom do they
answer to?

*ME: Well, the Lords of Karma answer to the Kal don't they? The Kal
runs the lower worlds according to Eckankar/Radhasoami dogma.

HK: "Well, they must carry out broader directions from the spiritual
hierarchy above. Yet it is they who select the Alexander the Greats,
Napoleons, Lincolns--and yes, even the Hitlers and Stalins. The two
latter sorts of personages cause millions to lead lives of misery
and suffering. BUT the divine plan is such that hardships are a
quick, sure way to purify Souls."

*ME: Okay okay! Enough of the history lesson! And, why did Klemp use
that "BUT" is he hiding something again and 'twisting the facts?' If
suffering is part of the divine plan, because Klemp is unable to
intervene, then how does Eckankar differ from Radhasoami or any
other religion that makes promises to its followers? The dream
experiences and visitations by masters or angels, as well as, the
use of the imagination to create cause etc., is nothing unique to
only Eckankar!

HK: "In The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmand, Books One & Two, you'll see the
different levels of the spiritual hierarchy. Each level has a unique
mission. The ECK Masters' role is to show Souls the way home ot God.
That's how they are Co-workers with God."

*ME: Of course Klemp is leaving out the additional step of becoming
a Co-worker "with" the Mahanta before becoming a Co-worker with God.
This step was added when HK rewrote Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary
and titled it A Cosmic Sea of Words the Eckankar Lexicon. Question:
Why isn't this "level" called being a Co-worker with SUGMAD or under
Sugmad?

HK: "ECK chelas help the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in this
task. So they are Co-workers with the Mahanta, the Living ECK
Master."

*ME: Does it seem that Klemp has taken us off track with how this
article actually began? This is what he does as he distorts truth in
order to promote himself, by indirect means, to a status beyond the
reach or understanding of any chela! This is the Catch-22 game he
plays. I'm just like you he will say - Soul equals Soul - and then
he reminds chelas of his high status as LEM/Mahanta! HK giveth and
then taketh away. Just a note: Always get that annual membership
donation fee in on time!

HK: "Through all ages, the ECK Masters have been here to show people
a way out of the chaos of life, into a life of peace, love and
meaning."

*ME: Actually, Twitch just made it all up and took used these famous
people to create his Spiritual Hierarchy and linage of Eck Masters
in order to establish his own high authority which could not be
questioned or criticized. It is similar to that of the Pope. His
ruling are beyond reproach.

HK: "And as Mary learned earlier, it's really all about love."

*ME: Yes, let's now bring it back to the original topic after
Klemp's promotion of himself and his unquestionable authority.
However, Klemp never really talked about human love and how this and
our relationships are expressions of divine love. This is how we
demonstrate in the physical world what we have learned via our
communication with our higher Self or Soul. And if we can't
demonstrate love in this here and now on this Physical Plane what
value does it have on the higher Planes?!

HK: "I hope this overview of the changes of consciousness in society
gives you a better sense of the big picture and your role in it."

*ME: Actually this article doesn't give an "overview" that is
relevant to normal life in this here and now. The past is the past
and historic events can be explained away from a variety of
perspectives. Even historical experts differ in views. The benefit
of revisiting the past is to see and analyze our individual mistakes
or those mistakes of earlier societies' from a new and clearer
perspective. However, Klemp seems obsessed eith the past and with
the Negative. This is probably because he has difficulty in dealing
with and relating to present day society, events, and people. And,
sometimes it is necessary to also look at the little picture or
microcosm while also viewing the macrocosm.

Prometheus

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
<ctecvie@...> wrote:

> I found this on huchat lately:

> QUOTE
> If I was completely sure, I wouldn't need the
> Mahanta.

> UNQUOTE

> Me: WOW I say! LOL! Does this mean that the mahanta is merely a
> crutch? I think it does! LOL!

> Another chela answered to this:

> Quote:
Weeeelll... I am not so certain about that <G>
Personally, the definition of the word "need" is fairly important
here. I "Need" oxygen for my physical body to survive, and my view
of the relationship with the Mahanta is really the same as my
physical bodies need for oxygen. "I" would survive, because Soul is
Eternal... but at a diminished, less functional level.


***  When I read this post by Michael Wallace, it sounds to me like
he has returned to Hu-chat to promote yet another one of his MLM
businesses!  At one time not too long ago he was selling "water",
and some sort of special music cd to take you higher in your
meditations!  Yep, bottled H2O, and music....  is it possible to
sell oxygen? Oh sure here in the states you can with a prescription
from a Medical Doctor.  Mr. Wallace on the other hand is no doctor,
has no license to sell, yet does on the internet. You know those
Alternative Medicine types....

Michael Wallace only shows up on the Eck chat groups on a rare
occassion as I said, eventually to add a signature to his posts with
a link to his latest scam MLM business.   All the while making it
sound like he is still an eckie.  LOL   Similar to Val from Hu-chat
promoting her special scented candles and such....  hey take
advantage of the gullable while you can folks! You've got the
perfect group to do it with!  ;-P

Hi All,
So Klempus thinks this pathetic attempt of an article is
an 'overview' of the changes in consciousness in society? By
mentioning the works of Bach, Mozart, and Bethoven and the lords of
Karma, not forgetting the brainwashing of the followers with more
mahanta stuff? James Redfield does a much better job in a chapter in
his book, The Celestine Prophecy, than this dribble from the so-
called 'Godman of the Universes'
This is the kind of 'thin soup' 'pap for babes' which unfortunately
his followers read and think it's wisdom unparalled.

Pretujari

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> FYI- One Does Not need to be a Site Member to Post Messages
> Anonymously, or to Read the Archives, or View the LINKS. However,
> detractors and other Eck thugs who attempt to spam the site, and/or
> distract from the purpose described in the front page mission
> statement will have their posts Deleted from Pending Messages.
>
> Below are my comments to Klemps nutty "wisdom."
>
> 09/2006 The Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp
>
> HK: "Mary went into contemplation and asked what was behind all her
> earlier relationships. They were made up of the usual stuff--full
of
> agony, ecstasy, drama, and disenchantment."
>
> *ME: I'm certain that Klemp is viewing her letter through his own
> distorted perspective. This is Not the "Usual Stuff" of dreams.
> Klemp has just been reading the ones that stand out to Eckists and
> has assumed that these unusual ones are common! This, also, shows
> how out-of-touch Klemp is with reality.
>
> HK: "Then, parading before her eyes, came a column of people from
> this lifetime. There were her parents, siblings, classmates,
> friends, lovers, spouses, children, coworkers, and so many more.
> Mary noticed that in all these relationships she had just wanted
> love. That was it."
>
> *ME: Once again, Klemp is projecting his own distorted views of
life
> as he interprets her dream. Klemp is probably the one that has
> always "just wanted love" but doesn't know how to go about it due
to
> his previously mentioned personality disorders relating back to his
> childhood.
>
> HK: "And yet, this need for love always left her at the mercy of
> others, and to their reactions."
>
> *ME: See, Klemp thinks that giving love leaves one "at the mercy of
> others!" And, what kind of "reactions" is he implying? It seems
that
> Klemp is implying that Negative reactions will occur if one gives
> love unconditionally. However, should one always expect or demand
> that love be returned or even returned in the ways we want or can
> see? If so, then the love given was Not unconditional or given
> freely in the first place!
>
> HK: "How much was that like slavery."
>
> *ME: And what is the purpose of this statement? Is this just
another
> wishy-washy ploy to change the subject or to seem empathetic? One
is
> not a "slave" to love. However, one can become attached to habits
> and expectations. But, I guarantee that if one gives love freely
and
> unconditionally that it will be returned by most individuals and
> certainly by Spirit.
>
> HK: "And yet, through all she's learned in ECKANKAR, she is clear
> about the special gift that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master and
> all the other ECK Masters bring to people. The Masters show how to
> find divine love."
>
> *ME: It's interesting how Klemp avoids practicing love with real
> people. Instead, Klemp talks of an imagined concept of "divine
love"
> that is absent of real people. Therefore, family members, friends,
> co-workers (non-Eckists), etc. are excluded from this "divine
love."
> In Eckankar this spiritual technique is termed "The Easy Way."
>
> HK: "This involves a working relationship with the ECK (Holy
> Spirit). that, then, opens the door to spiritual freedom and means
> becoming an open channel for the ECK."
>
> *ME: True "spiritual freedom" comes through Self-Mastery and Not
> Needing a delusional and unloving "master/savior" to follow around
> and hanging onto every ridiculous statement coming from his smiling
> little mouth!
>
> HK: "That is the sum of what living is all about."
>
> *ME: See! Klemp has No clue about love or about living! He's been a
> recluse since childhood. He's always hidden out and been anti-
social
> and lacked empathy and love. This is a part of his psychopathy.
> Being the LEM just gives him an excuse for his nutty behaviour.
>
> HK: "So all true ECK initiates know they're to be open channels for
> the Holy Spirit. Of course, their service takes place in society.
> They--you--are working in a sea of consciousness, bright lights in
a
> dark world."
>
> *ME: So, does this mean that Klemp is promoting a one-on-one Vahana
> effort versus intros and public book discussions and psychic fairs?
> Also, who are the "true" ECK initiates? Do these "true" Eckists
also
> follow the never-ending Guidelines and the unspoken rules of
conduct
> without question? BTW- I recently found a 1972 copyright of the
Manu
> Samhita-The Code of Ethics which contained even more rules! And,
> let's Not forget the Four Zoas!
>
> HK: "You are also quite aware that this sea of consciousness is
> forever changing."
>
> *ME: "Consciousness is forever changing" for those of us still
> operating in the field of action and truly living life! However, it
> seems that Higher Consciousness has eluded Klemp since he seems to
> be stuck in a time warp of past events. His unresolved issues
> steming from his inability to relate to others or to society has
> distorted his perspectives in every facet of life. He now hides in
> his delusional little construct of reality based upon a blend of
> revised Radhasoami and Christian dogma called Eckankar.
>
> HK: "A way to trace this change is to observe a society's
> innovations, its inventions or new developments in thought, better
> technical and practical devices, and also in its music."
>
> *ME: So, is Klemp now going to bring us up-to-date and relate some
> Be Here Now philosophy and advice along with some current views on
> music for the 21st Century? Not a chance!
>
> HK: "A society's thinkers come up with ideas about what laws
> underlie existence and how an individual ought to conduct himself.
> The ancient Greeks--like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle--led the
way
> for how Western society would arrange its thoughts in the coming
> centuries."
>
> *ME: "Western society?" Oh, I guess Klemp means European society.
>
> HK: "Music, some say, mirrors an age. So in the Western tradition
we
> see the likes of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven."
>
> *ME: Well as far as classical music goes Bach is my favorite and
> Mozart is next. I really don't care much for Beethoven, although, I
> do like his 9th. Does Klemp know that Beethoven suffered from
> serious depression?
>
> HK: "Bach echoed the idea that all music was from God, so it should
> glorify Him. He composed in the wake of the Reformation, when
> Protestants had led the renewal of the Christian church, bringing
it
> back closer to its roots in New Testament times."
>
> *ME: I think that Johnny Cash also "echoed" similar concepts of
God,
> although, I'm not being very current in mentioning Johnny!
>
> HK: "Mozart followed close on the heels of Bach, who had died six
> years before. As usual, there was political unheaval in Europe,
> including the Seven Years' War. BUT Mozart, an Austrian, mirrored
> his society's desire for harmony, which he expressed in the use of
> melody in compositions. A listener of Mozart will find that his
> music often lends itself to humming along."
>
> *ME: Yes, I often enjoy "humming along" while listening to Mozart!
> LOL! I especially enjoy "humming" to his Piano Concertos Nos. 9 &
> 21! Sometimes I even conduct! Isn't it interesting how Klemp
> distorts history as he puts his own warped Mahanta/savior slant on
> truth.
>
> HK: "Beethoven's music reflects the Enlightenment. The church and
> belief in God took a backseat to rationalism. Man's reason was now
> superior to the power of religion and superstition."
>
> *ME: I must say that Klemp certainly doesn't take a backseat to
> rationalizing, therefore, his ability to reason is certainly in
> question. Why does he need to revisit the past so often? I think he
> enjoys manipulating history by adding his "High" opinions as though
> his views are important to the rest of the world. Sadly for him,
> only his deluded and mindless followers believe this tripe!
>
> HK: "When Beethoven stepped from the wings, his music stressed self-
> expression. He wrote music to please himself, not God or society.
In
> fact, after beating a piano into submission while playing one of
his
> pieces to an audience, he'd hector the listeners for not having the
> wit to understand what the composition was all about. People loved
> his music anyway."
>
> *ME: And now Klemp beats his chelas into submission through the Law
> of Silence, Guidelines upon guidelines, Zoas, and rules of
behaviour
> and by calling them "losers." BTW- only the brainwashed and truely
> delusional Eckists can love this agent for the Kal. Eckists need to
> see that they are the true Master.
>
> HK: "As the centuries roll by, then, we note how certain key people
> change societies to come. You know full well, too, that such
changes
> in consciousness need an igniting spark."
>
> *ME: And, is Klemp being modest by only "implying" that he is
> this "igniting spark?" It seems Klemp has learned a lot from
> Twitchell in regards to self-promotion.
>
> HK: "What is this spark? The spark is the spiritual hierarchy. This
> includes the ECK Masters as well as the Lords of Karma."
>
> *ME: See, Klemp is giving credit for "this spark" to the "spiritual
> hierarchy." However, isn't Klemp listed under SUGMAD in the Eck
> Spiritual Hierarchy. Now in the Eckankar LexiCon the ECK is mention
> prior to the Mahanta, but Klemp claims to be the ECK! Catch-22
Again!
>
> HK: "The Lords of Karma certainly play an important role, because
it
> is they who select the Souls to see rebirth into a given age, to
> help mankind enter a new level of consciousness. BUT whom do they
> answer to?
>
> *ME: Well, the Lords of Karma answer to the Kal don't they? The Kal
> runs the lower worlds according to Eckankar/Radhasoami dogma.
>
> HK: "Well, they must carry out broader directions from the
spiritual
> hierarchy above. Yet it is they who select the Alexander the
Greats,
> Napoleons, Lincolns--and yes, even the Hitlers and Stalins. The two
> latter sorts of personages cause millions to lead lives of misery
> and suffering. BUT the divine plan is such that hardships are a
> quick, sure way to purify Souls."
>
> *ME: Okay okay! Enough of the history lesson! And, why did Klemp
use
> that "BUT" is he hiding something again and 'twisting the facts?'
If
> suffering is part of the divine plan, because Klemp is unable to
> intervene, then how does Eckankar differ from Radhasoami or any
> other religion that makes promises to its followers? The dream
> experiences and visitations by masters or angels, as well as, the
> use of the imagination to create cause etc., is nothing unique to
> only Eckankar!
>
> HK: "In The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmand, Books One & Two, you'll see the
> different levels of the spiritual hierarchy. Each level has a
unique
> mission. The ECK Masters' role is to show Souls the way home ot
God.
> That's how they are Co-workers with God."
>
> *ME: Of course Klemp is leaving out the additional step of becoming
> a Co-worker "with" the Mahanta before becoming a Co-worker with
God.
> This step was added when HK rewrote Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary
> and titled it A Cosmic Sea of Words the Eckankar Lexicon. Question:
> Why isn't this "level" called being a Co-worker with SUGMAD or
under
> Sugmad?
>
> HK: "ECK chelas help the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in this
> task. So they are Co-workers with the Mahanta, the Living ECK
> Master."
>
> *ME: Does it seem that Klemp has taken us off track with how this
> article actually began? This is what he does as he distorts truth
in
> order to promote himself, by indirect means, to a status beyond the
> reach or understanding of any chela! This is the Catch-22 game he
> plays. I'm just like you he will say - Soul equals Soul - and then
> he reminds chelas of his high status as LEM/Mahanta! HK giveth and
> then taketh away. Just a note: Always get that annual membership
> donation fee in on time!
>
> HK: "Through all ages, the ECK Masters have been here to show
people
> a way out of the chaos of life, into a life of peace, love and
> meaning."
>
> *ME: Actually, Twitch just made it all up and took used these
famous
> people to create his Spiritual Hierarchy and linage of Eck Masters
> in order to establish his own high authority which could not be
> questioned or criticized. It is similar to that of the Pope. His
> ruling are beyond reproach.
>
> HK: "And as Mary learned earlier, it's really all about love."
>
> *ME: Yes, let's now bring it back to the original topic after
> Klemp's promotion of himself and his unquestionable authority.
> However, Klemp never really talked about human love and how this
and
> our relationships are expressions of divine love. This is how we
> demonstrate in the physical world what we have learned via our
> communication with our higher Self or Soul. And if we can't
> demonstrate love in this here and now on this Physical Plane what
> value does it have on the higher Planes?!
>
> HK: "I hope this overview of the changes of consciousness in
society
> gives you a better sense of the big picture and your role in it."
>
> *ME: Actually this article doesn't give an "overview" that is
> relevant to normal life in this here and now. The past is the past
> and historic events can be explained away from a variety of
> perspectives. Even historical experts differ in views. The benefit
> of revisiting the past is to see and analyze our individual
mistakes
> or those mistakes of earlier societies' from a new and clearer
> perspective. However, Klemp seems obsessed eith the past and with
> the Negative. This is probably because he has difficulty in dealing
> with and relating to present day society, events, and people. And,
> sometimes it is necessary to also look at the little picture or
> microcosm while also viewing the macrocosm.
>
> Prometheus
>

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:

> HK: "Music, some say, mirrors an age. So in the Western tradition
we see the likes of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven."
>
> HK: "Mozart followed close on the heels of Bach, who had died six
> years before. As usual, there was political unheaval in Europe,
> including the Seven Years' War. BUT Mozart, an Austrian, mirrored
> his society's desire for harmony, which he expressed in the use of
> melody in compositions. A listener of Mozart will find that his
> music often lends itself to humming along."
>
> HK: "As the centuries roll by, then, we note how certain key
people change societies to come. You know full well, too, that such
changes in consciousness need an igniting spark."
>
> HK: "What is this spark? The spark is the spiritual hierarchy.


***  I was going to keep each snippet of HK's info on Bach and
Beethoven, but decided to keep this limited in length.

Yesterday I was reading a book a good friend had given me as a gift.
It's titled "Something Worth Leaving Behind" by Brett Beavers and
Tom Douglas, with introduction by Lee Ann Womack.

The reason I bring this up is, within the pages of this book is a
chapter on Mozart.   The whole idea of this book is to express the
fact that not everyone is going to leave an amazing legacy such as
Mozart, and others listed in the book.  But we each leave amazing
legacies when we love those around us.

Now you ask, what the heck is Liz geting at? Hmmmm  well while
reading the chapter on Mozart, I had this funny feeling HK has read
this book and sees himself and his Eckankrap as one of those amazing
legacies... well in his own mind anyway.

Make sure you place yourself in an eckie HK sort of mood frame,
while you read these words. Though I am sure the fine folks that
wrote this book, do not want to be or have any correlation to HK or
his cult!

Here is what I am talking about:

From the book, Something worth leaving behind page 20

"Hey Mozart, what kind of name is Amadeus?"
I guess he would say it's Austrian, since that's where he was born.
Actually, his whole name is pretty cool...

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756 - 1791)
Mozart is considered to be one of the most creative musical geniuses
of all time.

Check out this timeline:
Age 4 ~ He shows remarkable musical talent and learns to play piano.
Age 5 ~ He begins composing music.
Age 6 ~ He plays for Empress Maria Theresa of Austria.
Age 14 ~ He has already composed many works for the harpsichord,
piano, and violin, as well as orchestral works.

Early 20s ~ He is virtually ignored by the courts of Europe.
But Mozart presses on under difficult circumstances and composes his
most enduring work during the later years of his life.

Then age 35 ~ HE dies in poverty from a feverish illness and is
buried in a Vienna suburb with little ceremony... in an unmarked
grave.

Yet Mozart lives on to this day in the more than six hundred works
of music he left behind.

What was the secret to his greatness and genius?  He listened with
his heart and heard...

Possibilities.  When he saw a violin... he heard a concerto.
When he stood in an empty concert hall... he heard angels singing.
When he looked at a blank manuscript... he heard Symphonies.

What is a Symphony?

A symphony is a gift to the world from the one who conceives it,
labors over it, and then...  leaves it behind for all the world to
hear.

A reminder... of the beauty one person can create.

Violins, cellos, basses. Woodwinds and brass. Percussion. Working
together like... the beating of a HEART.

The slow introduction
The rising of the second movement
The crescendo to the grand finale.

(Kind of like... life)

Then...

The crowd flows out into the street Lifted...
Above the noise of jackhammers and horns and sirens.

Floating along on an

ECHO...echo...echo...

Of the music made

Of the precious memories

Of the life lived.

---------------------------------------

Well the book continues.... ;-)  I just thought I could hear HK
playing Mozart in the background as he was writing his mythical
wisdom note for Sept. 2006, trying to create his own likeness of
Mozart, to the followers of Eckankrap.  He will leave a mark, what a
martyr he has become, all frugal and all.... kind of like Mozart?
Only in his delusional mind!

Hello All,
Thanks Liz for reposting this from one of those Eckie sites. I
thought I'd bring the post back to the front page because the
comments were so insightful and honest. This is the tip-of-the-
iceberg on the real ECKANKAR history that Klemp wants to hide from
everyone. BTW-I know who this TuzaHu is. He left Eck when Darwin got
booted, but Klemp allowed him to return with all initiations! Funny,
how Klemp has gotten more intolerant over the years. I wonder if
TuzaHu is still a chela (i.e. a current PAID member)?

Prometheus


Liz wrote:

Hello all,

I wanted to re post a message I saw over on the Conversations With
Twitchell Yahoo Group. The individual that posted this goes by the
Yahoo ID of TuzaHu. It is a response to the topic entitled "Those
Wonderful Eck Masters". This person is addressing a "Detractor"
comment made by an HI Clergy member by the name of Rich Smith, aka
Cyber Sailor Rich, sailing the cosmic sea of eckankrap with his
signature cyber sailboat.  LOL


Quote:

"Detractor." What a strong name that is to call someone. When in fact
they've grown in their own power and towards their own light in
their own path. Because it threatens some that they can go on their
own and stand on their own they have to be called a name. Detractor.

When I got into Eck Paul had it set up for one Initiation. That's it.
Later he changed it as the chelas asked for a spiritual yardstick to
judge their 'growth' by. The initiations were created. Then, once
one was a 5th initiate he was free to go on his own as a spiritual
adept. After Paul it was Darwin that changed the path that if money
was not sent in on a regular basis the initiations were dropped, or
stripped, as the chela didn't make a monetary 'donation' to the
church as proof of their dedication the initiations were no longer
valid. Strange that one's own growth and power in one's own life
always eyed by the inner master wasn't good enough. The outer needed
that check in the mail to be of a special initiation.

Three times a year I'd get a print out mailed to me of people ready
for their next initiation and I put Yes or No next to their name and
mailed it in, the Yes people got pink slips, the No people didn't.
On occasion I saw Bernadine Berlin, Darwin's secretary fill out the
pink slips of people I suggested were ready, on two occasions she
handed me the blank pink slips and I filled in names and initiations
for those I thought were ready for the next level.

Those initiations are the carrot at the end of the stick that keeps
the donkey cart moving. Paul didn't want them in the beginning. I
think he knew what they could do to students, striving for a number
not a way of life. Things change. Now if you don't send in your
payment for so many years you are stripped of all initiations except
for the second. Funny how a soul can spiral downward without the
physical body writing checks on a regular basis to keep it in lofty
levels of awareness, isn't it. I guess the Friday Fast and doing
good deeds isn't enough. That check needs to be in the mail to find
God.

My perception from the beginning was Paul had a good idea. You get
into Eckankar, learn your lessons and get out. When the Initiations
were set up you got them at the World Wide Seminar every year. You
show up in Vegas in October for Paul's Birthday and you got the
present. They were gang initiations, groups of people got the
initiation at the same time. If you didn't show up you didn't get
zapped. You show up you got zapped. Very simple. I remember watching
the beginning of a group of 16 people get their 5th initiation in
Las Vegas, it was 1968 or 1969. I was mesmerized that all those self
aware souls were being created. Some jumped initiations from their 2
or 3 to their 5th. If the area 'needed' a Mahdis they got zapped.
Poof, you're self realized, go enroll others in the path.

One special thing I've learned in my years of Eckankar is this. The
best place to hide lies is in a pack of truth. Cleopatra had the
poison snake in a sweet basket of figs. It makes the bitter slide
down so much more easily. It takes the sting out of the bitter
medicine. It soothes the intelligence by so much making sense that
you just accept what would normally be red flags. It's advertising.

Just thoughts. Not making accusations. I cherish my years in
Eckankar. I cherish the lessons I learned and people I met. I had a
great time. It kept me off drugs in my youth, I learned to focus on
one thing at a time, I learned to stand tall in my own truth and
even when told that God Itself would not approve I didn't go up in a
puff of smoke, but grew and flourished in my own way. I learned a
lot in Eckankar.

Just a nice link to share with you all.  :-)

Hope you all enjoy a lovely weekend!

Hugs,
Liz


http://www.marycy.org/remember.html

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Gnothe Seauton
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Below are my comments to Klemps nutty "wisdom." (revised)
>
> 09/2006 The Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp
>
........



HK: "Through all ages, the ECK Masters have been here to show people a
way out of the chaos of life, into a life of peace, love and meaning."

*ME: Actually, Twitch just made it all up and took used these famous
people to create his Spiritual Hierarchy and linage of Eck Masters in
order to establish his own high authority which could not be
questioned or criticized. It is similar to that of the Pope whose
rulings are beyond reproach........

****This really stuck out for me. I often thought that klemp was
acting like he was the Pope. Rewriting history is actually worse than
plagiarism. WHere is the empirical evidence? Most eckies could care
less because they are coming from a place of blind faith, where no
empirical evidence is needed. In fact, that kind of link to reality is
most often feared, for it may so seeds of doubt, which is a sin. lol
THe history of eckankar only proves that it is a concocted religion
made up in 1965 by a pathological liar, and each so called eckankult
master is simply cast in the same mold. The new name for eckankult is
SCAM.

Non

Below are my comments to Klemp's nutty "wisdom." (revised)

09/2006 The Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp

HK: "Mary went into contemplation and asked what was behind all her
earlier relationships. They were made up of the usual stuff--full of
agony, ecstasy, drama, and disenchantment."

*ME: Klemp is no expert on relationships! I'm certain that Klemp is
viewing her letter through his own distorted perspective. This is
Not the "Usual Stuff" of dreams,  contemplation, or of life. Where's
the positive side of this story, and the love, fun and happiness?
Klemp has just been reading the letters of experiences that stand
out to these frustrated, depressed and troubled Eckists and has
assumed that these negative and unusual cases are common! This,
also, shows how out-of-touch Klemp is with reality and his chelas ,
as well as, his obsession with the negative passions of the mind.

HK: "Then, parading before her eyes, came a column of people from
this lifetime. There were her parents, siblings, classmates,
friends, lovers, spouses, children, coworkers, and so many more.
Mary noticed that in all these relationships she had just wanted
love. That was it."

*ME: Once again, Klemp is projecting his own distorted views of life
onto Mary's as he misinterprets her contemplation. Klemp is probably
the one who has always "just wanted love" but doesn't know how to go
about it due to his *previously mentioned personality disorders
relating back to his childhood. [*see message #1602 on ESA]

HK: "And yet, this need for love always left her at the mercy of
others, and to their reactions."

*ME: Klemp thinks that giving love leaves one "at the mercy of
others!" And, what kind of "reactions" is he implying? It seems that
Klemp is implying that Negative reactions will occur if one gives
love unconditionally. However, should one always expect or demand
that love be returned or even returned in the ways we want or can
see? If so, then the love given was Not unconditional or given
freely in the first place!

HK: "How much was that like slavery."

*ME: And what is the purpose of this statement? Is this just another
wishy-washy ploy to change the subject or to seem empathetic? One is
not a "slave" to love. However, one can become attached to habits
and expectations. But, I guarantee that if one gives love freely and
unconditionally that it will be returned by most individuals and
certainly by Spirit.

HK: "And yet, through all she's learned in ECKANKAR, she is clear
about the special gift that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master and
all the other ECK Masters bring to people. The Masters show how to
find divine love."

*ME: It's interesting how Klemp avoids practicing love with real
people. Instead, Klemp talks of an imagined concept of "divine love"
that is a Kal distraction. Love and even "divine love" needs to be
expressed to real everyday people, family members, friends, co-
workers (non-Eckists), etc. by Eckists. In Eckankar the (Eck/Kal)
spiritual technique of exclusion could be termed "The Easy Way."

HK: "This involves a working relationship with the ECK (Holy
Spirit). that, then, opens the door to spiritual freedom and means
becoming an open channel for the ECK."

*ME: "Spiritual freedom" comes through Self-Mastery and Not Needing
a delusional and unloving "master/savior" to follow around or
hanging onto every ridiculous statement coming from his smiling
little mouth!

HK: "That is the sum of what living is all about."

*ME:  Klemp has No clue about love or about living! He's been a
recluse since childhood. He's always hidden out and been anti-social
and lacked empathy and love. This is a part of his psychopathy.
Being the LEM just gives him an excuse for his nutty behaviour.

HK: "So all true ECK initiates know they're to be open channels for
the Holy Spirit. Of course, their service takes place in society.
They--you--are working in a sea of consciousness, bright lights in a
dark world."

*ME: So, does this mean that Klemp is promoting a one-on-one Vahana
effort versus intros and public book discussions and psychic fairs?
Also, who are the "true" ECK initiates? Do these "true" Eckists also
follow the never-ending Guidelines and the unspoken rules of conduct
without question? BTW- I recently found a 1972 copyright of the Manu
Samhita-The Code of Ethics which contained even more rules! And,
let's Not forget the Four Zoas!

HK: "You are also quite aware that this sea of consciousness is
forever changing."

*ME: "Consciousness is forever changing" for those of us still
operating in the field of action and truly living life! However, it
seems that Higher Consciousness has eluded Klemp since he seems to
be stuck in a time warp of past events. His unresolved issues
steming from his inability to relate to others or to society has
distorted his perspectives in every facet of life. He now hides in
his delusional little construct of reality based upon a blend of
revised Radhasoami and Christian dogma called Eckankar.

HK: "A way to trace this change is to observe a society's
innovations, its inventions or new developments in thought, better
technical and practical devices, and also in its music."

*ME: So, is Klemp now going to bring us up-to-date and relate some
Be Here Now philosophy and advice along with some current views on
music for the 21st Century? Not a chance! That's for the next book
report!

HK: "A society's thinkers come up with ideas about what laws
underlie existence and how an individual ought to conduct himself.
The ancient Greeks--like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle--led the way
for how Western society would arrange its thoughts in the coming
centuries."

*ME: "Western society?" Oh, I guess Klemp means European society.
Hint to HK: Next time just say Occident and this will also include
America.

HK: "Music, some say, mirrors an age. So in the Western tradition we
see the likes of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven."

*ME: Well as far as classical music goes Bach is my favorite and
Mozart is next. I really don't care much for Beethoven, although, I
do like his 9th. Does Klemp know that Beethoven suffered from
serious depression? And, who are the "some" who say music mirrors an
age? Are these more Eck Masters or real people?

HK: "Bach echoed the idea that all music was from God, so it should
glorify Him. He composed in the wake of the Reformation, when
Protestants had led the renewal of the Christian church, bringing it
back closer to its roots in New Testament times."

*ME: I think that Johnny Cash also "echoed" similar concepts of God,
although, I'm not being very current in mentioning Johnny!

*******************************************************************
ON ANOTHER NOTE: It seems that Klemp doesn't mention the 16th
Century Eck Master named Martin Luther.  Where is this "history?"
Klemp studied in a Luthern seminary and once had dreams of becoming
a preacher. BTW - Do Eckists know that Luther wrote a pamphlet in
1545 entitled "The Jews and Their Lies?" "Luther claimed that Jews
thirsted for Christian blood and urged that Jews be killed.  The
Nazis reprinted this pamphlet in 1935 .  Some scholars feel that
these outrageous attacks mark the transition from anti-Judaism
(attacks motivated because of the Jews' refusal to accept
Christianity) to anti-Semitism (hatred of Jews as a so-called 'race'
who would contaminate the purity of another race.)"
http://www.adl.org/education/holocaust/holocaust_history.asp

*******************************************************************

HK: "Mozart followed close on the heels of Bach, who had died six
years before. As usual, there was political unheaval in Europe,
including the Seven Years' War. BUT Mozart, an Austrian, mirrored
his society's desire for harmony, which he expressed in the use of
melody in compositions. A listener of Mozart will find that his
music often lends itself to humming along."

*ME: Yes, I often enjoy "humming along" while listening to Mozart!
LOL! I especially enjoy "humming" to his Piano Concertos Nos. 9 &
21! Sometimes I even conduct! Isn't it interesting how Klemp
distorts history as he puts his own warped Mahanta/savior slant on
truth.

HK: "Beethoven's music reflects the Enlightenment. The church and
belief in God took a backseat to rationalism. Man's reason was now
superior to the power of religion and superstition."

*ME: I must say that Klemp certainly doesn't take a backseat to
rationalizing, therefore, his ability to reason is certainly in
question. Why does he need to revisit the past so often? I think he
enjoys manipulating history by adding his "High" opinions as though
his views are important to the rest of the world. Sadly for him,
only his deluded and mindless followers believe this tripe!

HK: "When Beethoven stepped from the wings, his music stressed self-
expression. He wrote music to please himself, not God or society. In
fact, after beating a piano into submission while playing one of his
pieces to an audience, he'd hector the listeners for not having the
wit to understand what the composition was all about. People loved
his music anyway."

*ME: And now Klemp beats his chelas into submission through the Law
of Silence, Guidelines upon guidelines, Zoas, and rules of behaviour
and by calling them "losers." BTW- only the brainwashed and truely
delusional Eckists can love this agent for the Kal. Eckists need to
see that they are the true Master.

HK: "As the centuries roll by, then, we note how certain key people
change societies to come. You know full well, too, that such changes
in consciousness need an igniting spark."

*ME: And, is Klemp being modest and humble by only "implying" that
he is this "igniting spark?" It seems Klemp has learned a lot from
that 'rascal' Twitchell in regards to self-promotion.

HK: "What is this spark? The spark is the spiritual hierarchy. This
includes the ECK Masters as well as the Lords of Karma."

*ME: Klemp is giving credit for "this spark" to the "spiritual
hierarchy." However, isn't Klemp listed under SUGMAD in the Eck
Spiritual Hierarchy.  In the Eckankar LexiCon the ECK is mentioned
after Sugmad and prior to the Mahanta, but Klemp claims to be the
ECK as well! Catch-22 Again!

HK: "The Lords of Karma certainly play an important role, because it
is they who select the Souls to see rebirth into a given age, to
help mankind enter a new level of consciousness. BUT whom do they
answer to?

*ME: Well, the Lords of Karma answer to the Kal don't they? The Kal
runs the lower worlds according to Eckankar/Radhasoami dogma.

HK: "Well, they must carry out broader directions from the spiritual
hierarchy above. Yet it is they who select the Alexander the Greats,
Napoleons, Lincolns--and yes, even the Hitlers and Stalins. The two
latter sorts of personages cause millions to lead lives of misery
and suffering. BUT the divine plan is such that hardships are a
quick, sure way to purify Souls."

*ME: Okay okay! Enough of the history lesson! And, why did Klemp use
that "BUT" is he hiding something?' If suffering is part of the
divine plan, because Klemp is unable to intervene, then how does
Eckankar differ from Radhasoami or any other religion that makes
promises to its followers? The dream experiences and visitations by
masters or angels, as well as, the use of the imagination to create
cause etc., is nothing unique to only Eckankar!

HK: "In The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmand, Books One & Two, you'll see the
different levels of the spiritual hierarchy. Each level has a unique
mission. The ECK Masters' role is to show Souls the way home ot God.
That's how they are Co-workers with God."

*ME: Of course Klemp is leaving out the additional step of becoming
a Co-worker "with" the Mahanta before becoming a Co-worker with God.
This step was added when HK rewrote Twitchell's Eckankar Dictionary
and titled it A Cosmic Sea of Words the Eckankar Lexicon. Question:
Why isn't this "level" called being a Co-worker with SUGMAD versus a
Co-worker with God?

HK: "ECK chelas help the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in this
task. So they are Co-workers with the Mahanta, the Living ECK
Master."

*ME: Does it seem that Klemp has taken us off track with how this
article actually began? This is what he does as he distorts truth in
order to promote himself, by indirect means, to a status beyond the
reach or understanding of any chela! This is the Catch-22 game he
plays. I'm just like you he will say - Soul equals Soul - and then
he reminds chelas of his high status as LEM/Mahanta! HK giveth and
then taketh away. Just a note: Always get that annual membership
donation fee in on time!

HK: "Through all ages, the ECK Masters have been here to show people
a way out of the chaos of life, into a life of peace, love and
meaning."

*ME: Actually, Twitch just made it all up and took used these famous
people to create his Spiritual Hierarchy and linage of Eck Masters
in order to establish his own high authority which could not be
questioned or criticized. It is similar to that of the Pope whose
rulings are beyond reproach.

HK: "And as Mary learned earlier, it's really all about love."

*ME: Yes, let's now bring it back to the original topic after
Klemp's promotion of himself and his unquestionable authority.
However, Klemp never really talked about human love and how this and
our relationships are expressions of divine love. This is how we
demonstrate in the physical world what we have learned via our
communication with our higher Self or Soul. And if we can't
demonstrate love in this here and now on this Physical Plane what
value does it have on the higher Planes?!

HK: "I hope this overview of the changes of consciousness in society
gives you a better sense of the big picture and your role in it."

*ME: Actually this article doesn't give an "overview" that is
relevant to normal life in this here and now. The past is the past
and historic events can be explained away from a variety of
perspectives. Even historical experts differ in views. The benefit
of revisiting the past is to see and analyze our individual mistakes
and those mistakes of earlier societies' from a new and clearer
perspective. However, Klemp seems obsessed with both the past and
> the Negative. This is probably because HK has difficulty in
dealing with and relating to present day society, events,
relationships and people in general. For the Spiritual Truth Seeker
it is necessary to also look at the little picture or microcosm
while also viewing the macrocosm simultaneously, and with loving
balance and patience. Through the practice our own Mastership the
rest will come in Its own time.

Prometheus

Notice that Yahoo seems to have skipped Saturday in the last two
posts. Or is it I who has lost a day? lol Hmm Don't think so.

Non

Klemp distorts history and forgets to mention Martin Luther--HK's
former (inner/outer) Spiritual Leader. Klemp studied and followed
the teachings of Luther for years.

From Eckankar's 09/2006 Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp--

HK: "Bach echoed the idea that all music was from God, so it should
glorify Him. He composed in the wake of the Reformation, when
Protestants had led the renewal of the Christian church, bringing it
back closer to its roots in New Testament times."

*ME: Klemp leaves out the hatred that these Christians also spread.
Why doesn't Klemp mention his former spiritual leader (and Eck
Master) Martin Luther since HK is talking about the Reformation?
Why isn't Klemp mentioning these past events instead of distorting
the facts as usual. This had nothing to do with "New Testament
times" unless one also mentions the persecution of the Jews.

Afterall, Klemp studied in a Luthern seminary and once had dreams of
becoming a Luthern minister. "Martin Luther, the founder of the 16th
Century Reformation and Protestantism, wrote a pamphlet in 1545
entitled 'The Jews and Their Lies.' Luther claimed that Jews
thirsted for Christian blood and urged that Jews be killed. The
Nazis reprinted this pamphlet in 1935. Some scholars feel that these
outrageous attacks mark the transition from anti-Judaism (attacks
motivated because of the Jews' refusal to accept Christianity) to
anti-Semitism (hatred of Jews as a so-called 'race' who would
contaminate the purity of another race.)"

This quote is taken from the below site. I find it interesting that
Klemp's tunnel/scam vision is so apparent. Why don't Eckists want to
take a second look and see the broader picture of history than the
one Klemp distorts from his lower view of consciousness? Oh, I
remember-- it's the easiest way and it feels good thinking
they "know" more than others. It's pure delusion that proves the old
saying that 'Ignorance is Bliss!'

http://www.adl.org/education/holocaust/holocaust_history.asp

Prometheus

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Below are my comments to Klemp's nutty "wisdom." (revised)
>
> 09/2006 The Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp
>
>> *ME: Actually this article doesn't give an "overview" that is
> relevant to normal life in this here and now. The past is the past
> and historic events can be explained away from a variety of
> perspectives. Even historical experts differ in views. The benefit
> of revisiting the past is to see and analyze our individual
mistakes
> and those mistakes of earlier societies' from a new and clearer
> perspective. However, Klemp seems obsessed with both the past and
> > the Negative. This is probably because HK has difficulty in
> dealing with and relating to present day society, events,
> relationships and people in general. For the Spiritual Truth
Seeker
> it is necessary to also look at the little picture or microcosm
> while also viewing the macrocosm simultaneously, and with loving
> balance and patience. Through the practice our own Mastership the
> rest will come in Its own time.
>
> Prometheus
>


Hi Prometheus and everyone!

You know, only Members of Eckankar receive these Not so Wise Wisdom
notes from HK...  why should anyone have to pay to read this crap?

HK wouldn't be able to GIVE this wisdom away to the public, because
the fact of the matter is people in real life would read this stuff
and KNOW there is no substance to any of it!

What does HK say that would or could fill anyone's spiritual
hunger?  There is nothing within these Wosdom Notes or The Mythical
News that could draw members to this path. Or keep them for that
matter!

No wonder only paid up members receive these...  I say they are
paying too much!

"Wosdom Notes"... Was this a typo? If it was it is a good one! lol Woe
is Klemp. Woesdom Notes.

Non ; ) gg

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
<ewickings@...> wrote:
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
> <prometheus_973@> wrote:
> >
> > Below are my comments to Klemp's nutty "wisdom." (revised)
> >
> > 09/2006 The Wisdom Notes by Harold Klemp
> >
> >> *ME: Actually this article doesn't give an "overview" that is
> > relevant to normal life in this here and now. The past is the past
> > and historic events can be explained away from a variety of
> > perspectives. Even historical experts differ in views. The benefit
> > of revisiting the past is to see and analyze our individual
> mistakes
> > and those mistakes of earlier societies' from a new and clearer
> > perspective. However, Klemp seems obsessed with both the past and
> > > the Negative. This is probably because HK has difficulty in
> > dealing with and relating to present day society, events,
> > relationships and people in general. For the Spiritual Truth
> Seeker
> > it is necessary to also look at the little picture or microcosm
> > while also viewing the macrocosm simultaneously, and with loving
> > balance and patience. Through the practice our own Mastership the
> > rest will come in Its own time.
> >
> > Prometheus
> >
>
>
> Hi Prometheus and everyone!
>
> You know, only Members of Eckankar receive these Not so Wise Wisdom
> notes from HK...  why should anyone have to pay to read this crap?
>
> HK wouldn't be able to GIVE this wisdom away to the public, because
> the fact of the matter is people in real life would read this stuff
> and KNOW there is no substance to any of it!
>
> What does HK say that would or could fill anyone's spiritual
> hunger?  There is nothing within these Wosdom Notes or The Mythical
> News that could draw members to this path. Or keep them for that
> matter!
>
> No wonder only paid up members receive these...  I say they are
> paying too much!
>

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Non ekster"
<eckchains@...> wrote:
>
> "Wosdom Notes"... Was this a typo? If it was it is a good one! lol
Woe
> is Klemp. Woesdom Notes.
>
> Non ; ) gg
>
> --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
> <ewickings@> wrote:

> > There is nothing within these Wosdom Notes or The Mythical
> > News that could draw members to this path. Or keep them for that
> > matter!
> >


LOL   good catch!  And Mystical = Mythical

Imagine if you will, Eckankrap and HK has made those Mystical World
News Letters free to the public.  The general public has no clue
what Eckankar is, or who this guy is that claims to be the God Man
of the entire Universe and beyond...


9/2006 Ask The Master, Sri Harold answers your questions:

Q: Has your experience with the HU changed as the Living Eck Master?

A: Yes, it has. I'll try to explain. Sometimes I don't have the
words. HU is both the name of God, and It's also the Sound of God.
That's why we sing HU.  And HU is the Sound that underlies all
sounds. It's the fabric upon which life lives, breathes, and has its
movement.

    The ECK, or the Breath of God,the Holy Spirit, makes life
possible. Without It there would be no life.

    The Living ECK Master is one with the ECK.  And there's no
difference.  So, how has my experience with the HU changed as the
Living ECK Master?  I really can't say any more beyond that, because
to understand, you'd have to be in this position. My apologies. It's
the best I can do.


[ Notice how HK claims it is hard for the God Man himself to find
the words to explain? He sometimes just doesn't have the words... He
points out that HU is both the name of GOD and the Sound. The ECK or
breath of GOD makes life possible. WITHOUT IT THERE WOULD BE NO
LIFE!  The Living ECK Master (HK) is ONE with the ECK.  AND there's
no difference.  (HK is claiming he is GOD!)  So has his experience
with the HU changed since becoming (GOD) the Living ECK Master? LOL
you weeds and losers would have to BE GOD TO UNDERSTAND, you'd have
to be in the position! My apologies for using the word "AND" 4
times, It's just so darn hard being GOD. ]



Q: What is the best way to resolve karma between myself and another
person? I realize it has to do with a past life. The past life was a
very long time ago. Wouldn't we have already worked out the karma?

A: [ Being GOD and all, I'll try to explain. Sometimes I don't have
the words.  AND since my time is so limited, I thought I would just
share this really cool idea presented at a recent ECK Youth Satsang
class. ;-) ]


A Youth Arahata (ECK teacher) described a fabulous
idea today and I just had to share it. He said that
he and his assistant decided to teach kids around
junior high age about karmic ties. They got an idea
to go to a used clothing store and buy a bunch of
old neckties (very cheap, as not that many guys wear
ties these days). They told the kids in the class to
take a necktie and find someone to be their
"karmic partner." Then they had to knot the ties
together. Next, they took a pair of scissors and actually
physically cut the ties! The kids loved the activity,
and they will always remember that lesson, I think.
I'll bet that this would be a neat activity for adults,
too.

Hello all,

this is from a.r.e. when somebody asked: "Is Darwin Gross still an
Eck Master?  Is there any way to tell for sure?"

Tianyue responded:

"Since Darwin Gross considers his treatment from his protege' Harold
Klemp to be unfair, and since Gross was appointed to be an Eck Master
before Klemp, and since he still consides himself to be a master, it
seems obvious Darwin still considers himself to be an Eck Master, for
what its worth. He doesn't use the term Eck or Eckankar because the
Eckankar Corporation OWNS these terms, and would sue Gross for
trademark violations if he were to violate them. You see, since
Eckankar owns the terms, it thus owns the masters, in a sense. No one
gets to be an Eck Master unless the eckankar corp says so, which is
rather odd, if one thinks about it. What if a 'higher
power'disagrees? Well, in Darwin's case, he seems to think just
that, so he still calls himself a teacher of light and sound, but
uses a different label.

As to how to tell, that is a far more complex answer. The standard
eckankar answer is if you have an inner experience with Klemp, and he
is an eck master in your inner experience, then go with it. But they
change their tune a bit when a person, as a card carrying eckist,
claims to have had a positive inner experience with Darwin.

In my local area, all hell broke loose when someone did exactly that,
which was to say they follow Darwin 'on the inner' during a worship
service. Many of the numerous high initiates had a fit, though it was
mostly in private. They wondered what to do about the person who
voiced this in a worship service. They didn't want the newbies in
eckankar to even hear about Darwin if it were avoidable.

Well, out of time for now. I'm out of here. (By the way, I don't
think any of them are real masters. What kind of masters would fight
over God?)

Tianyue"

I would say that Darwin Gross is as much of an Eck Master as both
Twitchell and Klemp are! Gross initiated Klemp with all of
Klemp's "Higher Initiatiations" and Twitchell made himself the
Mahanta via his creative imagination, dishonesty, and vanity.
Therefore, they are all vain scammers and fools! Those (Eckists) who
follow them and these teachings are a hodge-podge of individuals who
need something outside, higher, and better than they view their own
unique Beingness as Master Souls. What a pity!

Prometheus

ctecvie wrote:

Hello all,

this is from a.r.e. when somebody asked: "Is Darwin Gross still an
Eck Master?  Is there any way to tell for sure?"

Tianyue responded:

"Since Darwin Gross considers his treatment from his protege' Harold
Klemp to be unfair, and since Gross was appointed to be an Eck Master
before Klemp, and since he still consides himself to be a master, it
seems obvious Darwin still considers himself to be an Eck Master, for
what its worth. He doesn't use the term Eck or Eckankar because the
Eckankar Corporation OWNS these terms, and would sue Gross for
trademark violations if he were to violate them. You see, since
Eckankar owns the terms, it thus owns the masters, in a sense. No one
gets to be an Eck Master unless the eckankar corp says so, which is
rather odd, if one thinks about it. What if a 'higher power'
disagrees? Well, in Darwin's case, he seems to think just that, so
he still calls himself a teacher of light and sound, but
uses a different label.

As to how to tell, that is a far more complex answer. The standard
eckankar answer is if you have an inner experience with Klemp, and he
is an eck master in your inner experience, then go with it. But they
change their tune a bit when a person, as a card carrying eckist,
claims to have had a positive inner experience with Darwin.

In my local area, all hell broke loose when someone did exactly that,
which was to say they follow Darwin 'on the inner' during a worship
service. Many of the numerous high initiates had a fit, though it was
mostly in private. They wondered what to do about the person who
voiced this in a worship service. They didn't want the newbies in
eckankar to even hear about Darwin if it were avoidable.

Well, out of time for now. I'm out of here. (By the way, I don't
think any of them are real masters. What kind of masters would fight
over God?)

Tianyue"

Hi, All!

This is indeed an interesting post about the bogus eck masters and
what the eckankar org claim in their made-up religious scam. It
seems they talk out of both sides of their mouth. There are
certainly a lot of restrictions. I was looking at the list of dos
and don'ts for posting on HuChat the other day--how in the world can
anyone remember all of that???? So silly really to be telling adults
how to post, what to post and what not to post--and yet these same
eckists will claim that they are free to do pretty much what they
want as long as it follows the guidelines. But there are so many
guidelines! And if one of the eck leaders--H.I.s don't like
something that is said or done, they can always dredge up some rule
and chastise the offender, just as they were indeed bothered by the
eckist asking about Darwin Gross--wow, how dare he dirty up an eck
worship service by mentioning this miscreant's name and maybe have
newbies question this bit of eck history! LOL!

Eckists need to think for themselves here--why must Darwin Gross be
kept a secret?? Why the cover-up? Doesn't that seem fishy?

I certainly agree there are no eck masters--if there were, they
certainly wouldn't stoop so low as to fight over God! Paul
Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and that short list of masters
they claim you can conjure up, are just fakes. They steal people's
spiritual freedom by distracting them from taking a true spiritual
path by tying them up in dogma and bogus religious nonsense! What an
eckist learns from all the "eck" stories and spiritual exercises is
how to become delusional and brain-washed.

BTW, this is exactly what a cult will do--and is a basic way of
controlling people! They do not help individuals to find spiritual
freedom; rather, they rob them of it instead and impede spiritual
growth.

For sure, eckists and Klemp in particular should be concerned about
the karmic repercussions of such deceptions and impediments!

Mish

--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
<ctecvie@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> this is from a.r.e. when somebody asked: "Is Darwin Gross still an
> Eck Master?  Is there any way to tell for sure?"
>
> Tianyue responded:
>
> "Since Darwin Gross considers his treatment from his protege'
Harold
> Klemp to be unfair, and since Gross was appointed to be an Eck
Master
> before Klemp, and since he still consides himself to be a master,
it
> seems obvious Darwin still considers himself to be an Eck Master,
for
> what its worth. He doesn't use the term Eck or Eckankar because the
> Eckankar Corporation OWNS these terms, and would sue Gross for
> trademark violations if he were to violate them. You see, since
> Eckankar owns the terms, it thus owns the masters, in a sense. No
one
> gets to be an Eck Master unless the eckankar corp says so, which is
> rather odd, if one thinks about it. What if a 'higher
> power'disagrees? Well, in Darwin's case, he seems to think just
> that, so he still calls himself a teacher of light and sound, but
> uses a different label.
>
> As to how to tell, that is a far more complex answer. The standard
> eckankar answer is if you have an inner experience with Klemp, and
he
> is an eck master in your inner experience, then go with it. But
they
> change their tune a bit when a person, as a card carrying eckist,
> claims to have had a positive inner experience with Darwin.
>
> In my local area, all hell broke loose when someone did exactly
that,
> which was to say they follow Darwin 'on the inner' during a worship
> service. Many of the numerous high initiates had a fit, though it
was
> mostly in private. They wondered what to do about the person who
> voiced this in a worship service. They didn't want the newbies in
> eckankar to even hear about Darwin if it were avoidable.
>
> Well, out of time for now. I'm out of here. (By the way, I don't
> think any of them are real masters. What kind of masters would
fight
> over God?)
>
> Tianyue"
>

Hi There!
It is interesting to read the Eckie blogs or the member sites and
see how they hide from the truth in their narrow and fearful little
minds. Yes, it is Not permitted to speak of Darwin or what happened
in the 10 lost years of Eckankar from 1971-81. Klemp will only
speake of the end of Darwin's membership and mastership (the two go
hand-in-hand).

Is Eckankar a cult/scam? Sure, just read some of the LINKS. The very
first one has a lot of info and there are other links too! Check out
the SHARIYAT/Path of the Masters link.

Does the SHARIYAT threaten Eckists to ASTRAL HELLS if they want to
leave? Well, yes! Now does that sound like something a cult would
do? Well, yes again!

Did Twitchell make it all up including Rebazar? Yes again! Klemp
mentions that Twitchell often "twisted facts." And Twit lied about
meeting Sudar in India in 1935 at the age of 27 when he was lying
about everything to get into Kentucky's Who's Who. Klemp points this
out in the P.T. info on Eckankar.org.

Is Klemp perfect and was Twitchell or Gross perfect? Well, is the
Mahanta perfect? They claim(ed) to be the Mahanta who (Twit said)
was the incarnation of the SUGMAD. Even a 5th Initiate is higher
than "God" and therefore (in their minds as well) more perfect than
the lowly uninitiated masses.

Is Doug Marman an expert and an authority on everything including
Eckankar? Doug has a lot of opinions and likes to claim Klemp as a
friend, but he has stated that he thought Rebazar was a myth. In
other words he thinks Twitchell made it all up!

Basically, Eckists just accept anything and everything that Klemp
tells them to believe in. They need to believe in something so why
not in Klemp or Eckankar? However, they really really need to keep
paying that yearly membership donation fee because Eckists are
always hoping they get that next initiation or position and they
have to be current with that money. BUT even at that, 99.99% of the
7ths are just out of luck on ever getting an 8th Initiation (on the
outer- LOL! -in this lifetime).

So, why remain in Eckankar? Well, it beats nothing! People have to
follow someone or something don't they? Besides, there's the
social/relationship aspect too right? What would happen to their Eck
friends or family members if they left? What would Eckists do with
their free time if they were no longer in Eckankar and servants of
their Mahanta?

Hmmmmmm. Maybe Eckists would be free to be their own Master.
Afterall, how long do they need to be followers? Aren't they
learning anything about Self-Mastery or Spiritual Freedom? One
doesn't need to join the H.I. club like everyone else do they?
Aren't there people who are already of a higher consciousness
without the "Eck" initiations? Sure, there are plenty of people that
are more enlightened that the average H.I. or even the "true" blue
H.I.s! See! This is one more reason why it's all a lie!

Prometheus




IS DARWIN GROSS AN ECK MASTER?

mishmisha wrote:

Hi, All!

This is indeed an interesting post about the bogus eck masters and
what the eckankar org claim in their made-up religious scam. It
seems they talk out of both sides of their mouth. There are
certainly a lot of restrictions. I was looking at the list of dos
and don'ts for posting on HuChat the other day--how in the world can
anyone remember all of that???? So silly really to be telling adults
how to post, what to post and what not to post--and yet these same
eckists will claim that they are free to do pretty much what they
want as long as it follows the guidelines. But there are so many
guidelines! And if one of the eck leaders--H.I.s don't like
something that is said or done, they can always dredge up some rule
and chastise the offender, just as they were indeed bothered by the
eckist asking about Darwin Gross--wow, how dare he dirty up an eck
worship service by mentioning this miscreant's name and maybe have
newbies question this bit of eck history! LOL!

Eckists need to think for themselves here--why must Darwin Gross be
kept a secret?? Why the cover-up? Doesn't that seem fishy?

I certainly agree there are no eck masters--if there were, they
certainly wouldn't stoop so low as to fight over God! Paul
Twitchell, Darwin Gross, Harold Klemp and that short list of masters
they claim you can conjure up, are just fakes. They steal people's
spiritual freedom by distracting them from taking a true spiritual
path by tying them up in dogma and bogus religious nonsense! What an
eckist learns from all the "eck" stories and spiritual exercises is
how to become delusional and brain-washed.

BTW, this is exactly what a cult will do--and is a basic way of
controlling people! They do not help individuals to find spiritual
freedom; rather, they rob them of it instead and impede spiritual
growth.

For sure, eckists and Klemp in particular should be concerned about
the karmic repercussions of such deceptions and impediments!

Mish

Good Morning everyone,

First I would like to say that I have been lurking and reading from
this group for several months. I need to apologize to the group
owner for being guilty of cross posting some of the excellent
messages from this group, to another Yahoo group I belong to.

I never joined Eckankar Survivors Anonymous because I just didn't
really have anything to say.  Yet, the title of this post, and it's
message compelled me to officially join.

There is an amazing amount of information on the internet concerning
Eckankar. And I recently was introduced to the 360 yahoo blogs by an
Eckist named TomG.  So, I have to agree that these blogs, and member
sites are all very worthy of a look.

I am still an Eck member, for over 17 years. Yes I do point out the
flaws of Eckankar.  Though I now consider myself a researcher for
spiritual truth.

My heart is still somewhat with the teachings.  As I still find some
truth hidden within the passages of Paul Twitchell's material.
Although the more I research, the more I find, other peoples
knowledge being called Eckankar.

I am trying to keep a rational objective thinking mind, as so many
here keep reminding us. Though I am sure many Eckist do not see me
in that way?   Maybe, I will fit in just fine here at Eckankar
Survivors Anonymous?

Please join me at my 360 Yahoo page at:

http://360.yahoo.com/eckscholar

I have met a couple Eckist friends there from a very long time ago.
Maybe more of us can hook up?

Sandy H


--- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
<prometheus_973@...> wrote:
>
> Hi There!
> It is interesting to read the Eckie blogs or the member sites and
> see how they hide from the truth in their narrow and fearful
little
> minds. Yes, it is Not permitted to speak of Darwin or what
happened
> in the 10 lost years of Eckankar from 1971-81. Klemp will only
> speake of the end of Darwin's membership and mastership (the two
go
> hand-in-hand).
>
> Is Eckankar a cult/scam? Sure, just read some of the LINKS. The
very
> first one has a lot of info and there are other links too! Check
out
> the SHARIYAT/Path of the Masters link.
>
> Does the SHARIYAT threaten Eckists to ASTRAL HELLS if they want to
> leave? Well, yes! Now does that sound like something a cult would
> do? Well, yes again!
>
> Did Twitchell make it all up including Rebazar? Yes again! Klemp
> mentions that Twitchell often "twisted facts." And Twit lied about
> meeting Sudar in India in 1935 at the age of 27 when he was lying
> about everything to get into Kentucky's Who's Who. Klemp points
this
> out in the P.T. info on Eckankar.org.
>
> Is Klemp perfect and was Twitchell or Gross perfect? Well, is the
> Mahanta perfect? They claim(ed) to be the Mahanta who (Twit said)
> was the incarnation of the SUGMAD. Even a 5th Initiate is higher
> than "God" and therefore (in their minds as well) more perfect
than
> the lowly uninitiated masses.
>
> Is Doug Marman an expert and an authority on everything including
> Eckankar? Doug has a lot of opinions and likes to claim Klemp as a
> friend, but he has stated that he thought Rebazar was a myth. In
> other words he thinks Twitchell made it all up!
>
> Basically, Eckists just accept anything and everything that Klemp
> tells them to believe in. They need to believe in something so why
> not in Klemp or Eckankar? However, they really really need to keep
> paying that yearly membership donation fee because Eckists are
> always hoping they get that next initiation or position and they
> have to be current with that money. BUT even at that, 99.99% of
the
> 7ths are just out of luck on ever getting an 8th Initiation (on
the
> outer- LOL! -in this lifetime).
>
> So, why remain in Eckankar? Well, it beats nothing! People have to
> follow someone or something don't they? Besides, there's the
> social/relationship aspect too right? What would happen to their
Eck
> friends or family members if they left? What would Eckists do with
> their free time if they were no longer in Eckankar and servants of
> their Mahanta?
>
> Hmmmmmm. Maybe Eckists would be free to be their own Master.
> Afterall, how long do they need to be followers? Aren't they
> learning anything about Self-Mastery or Spiritual Freedom? One
> doesn't need to join the H.I. club like everyone else do they?
> Aren't there people who are already of a higher consciousness
> without the "Eck" initiations? Sure, there are plenty of people
that
> are more enlightened that the average H.I. or even the "true" blue
> H.I.s! See! This is one more reason why it's all a lie!
>
> Prometheus
>

Hi Sandra,
Welcome to the site and thanks for the nice compliments to the
posters here. I'll comment on what you have posted.

Sandra wrote:

Good Morning everyone,

First I would like to say that I have been lurking and reading from
this group for several months. I need to apologize to the group
owner for being guilty of cross posting some of the excellent
messages from this group, to another Yahoo group I belong to.

Me: No need to apologize for cross-posting. This is the Internet and
if someone wants to cross-post for whatever reason then that's just
the way it is. I'm always amused at people who think that someone
needs permission to share what they have already sent into the
ethers.

I never joined Eckankar Survivors Anonymous because I just didn't
really have anything to say. Yet, the title of this post, and it's
message compelled me to officially join.

Me: It's okay to just read. There are other sites that I don't
participate on. When I was an Eckist I used to share some Vahana
ideas and some thoughts about things on the official/unofficial Eck
sites and stopped because the Eckists there were disrespectful and
mean spirited. Actually, it helped to confirm what I already knew
(deep down inside). How could these people truly be of the same or
higher circle of initiation than me? This ongoing observation made
me question the validity of the Eck initiations even more so!

There is an amazing amount of information on the internet concerning
Eckankar. And I recently was introduced to the 360 yahoo blogs by an
Eckist named TomG.  So, I have to agree that these blogs, and member
sites are all very worthy of a look.

Me: Yes, these blogs are interesting. I wonder how involved that
Steve R. is with them? This TomG sounds familiar. I might have met
him at a regional in Richmond, VA.

I am still an Eck member, for over 17 years. Yes I do point out the
flaws of Eckankar. Though I now consider myself a researcher for
spiritual truth.

Me: Good for you! I'm in touch with several Eckists and some are
heretics of sorts on the outer because they see the "Mahanta" as
something beyond Klemp and his authority. One H.I. even sends me
copies of her Eck pubs. She reads this site and sends me private
emails but will not post. That's okay too. It's funny that she puts
up with all that I have to say, but she thinks that the balance is
needed and doesn't like all of the secrecy (absence of discussion),
the RESA intimidation, the military structure (hierarchy) and the
fear factor of being Black Listed or the forcing of guideline upon
guideline on individuals and upon the local Eck Centers, along with
other spoken and unspoken rules, etc. Afterall, Eckankar started for
many as a Spiritual Path versus a Religion. Now Eckankar resembles
Christianity - which many of us rejected long ago! I hope I summed
that up well enough? : )

My heart is still somewhat with the teachings.  As I still find some
truth hidden within the passages of Paul Twitchell's material.
Although the more I research, the more I find, other peoples
knowledge being called Eckankar.

Me: This is true with seeking Truth. Twitchell took from Radhasoami
and other religions and Westernized (altered it). There are some
good points and ideas out there to get us to reflect and to exert
some discipline and change. This is what a social setting with
feedback and an organized structure does. However, there is also a
lot of crap in this environment and people who are not as advanced
or focused upon the Spiritual. They seek to be stars or to be
noticed by others. They have not come close to controlling the ego
and yet they are H.I.s! This is why the true seeker much discover
their own Mastership and walk with SPIRIT and SOUL - and not depend
on someone else out of fear and Self doubt.

I am trying to keep a rational objective thinking mind, as so many
here keep reminding us. Though I am sure many Eckist do not see me
in that way? Maybe, I will fit in just fine here at Eckankar
Survivors Anonymous?

Me: It sounds like you will fit-in. However, one must find what
works for them and at the same time continue to explore with an open
mind that questions authority. We should become our own Authority!

Please join me at my 360 Yahoo page at:

http://360.yahoo.com/eckscholar

Me: Okay, I will!

I have met a couple Eckist friends there from a very long time ago.
Maybe more of us can hook up?

Me: Well, that sounds okay, however, I'm still in the "anonymous"
mode and don't want to reveal too much about me or my Eck friends.

Prometheus

Prometheus wrote:

Hi There!
It is interesting to read the Eckie blogs or the member sites and
see how they hide from the truth in their narrow and fearful little
minds. Yes, it is Not permitted to speak of Darwin or what happened
in the 10 lost years of Eckankar from 1971-81. Klemp will only
speake of the end of Darwin's membership and mastership (the two go
hand-in-hand).

Is Eckankar a cult/scam? Sure, just read some of the LINKS. The very
first one has a lot of info and there are other links too! Check out
the SHARIYAT/Path of the Masters link.

Does the SHARIYAT threaten Eckists to ASTRAL HELLS if they want to
leave? Well, yes! Now does that sound like something a cult would
do? Well, yes again!

Did Twitchell make it all up including Rebazar? Yes again! Klemp
mentions that Twitchell often "twisted facts." And Twit lied about
meeting Sudar in India in 1935 at the age of 27 when he was lying
about everything to get into Kentucky's Who's Who. Klemp points
this out in the P.T. info on Eckankar.org.

Is Klemp perfect and was Twitchell or Gross perfect? Well, is the
Mahanta perfect? They claim(ed) to be the Mahanta who (Twit said)
was the incarnation of the SUGMAD. Even a 5th Initiate is higher
than "God" and therefore (in their minds as well) more perfect than
the lowly uninitiated masses.

Is Doug Marman an expert and an authority on everything including
Eckankar? Doug has a lot of opinions and likes to claim Klemp as a
friend, but he has stated that he thought Rebazar was a myth. In
other words he thinks Twitchell made it all up!

Basically, Eckists just accept anything and everything that Klemp
tells them to believe in. They need to believe in something so why
not in Klemp or Eckankar? However, they really really need to keep
paying that yearly membership donation fee because Eckists are
always hoping they get that next initiation or position and they
have to be current with that money. BUT even at that, 99.99% of
the 7ths are just out of luck on ever getting an 8th Initiation (on
the outer- LOL! -in this lifetime).

So, why remain in Eckankar? Well, it beats nothing! People have to
follow someone or something don't they? Besides, there's the
social/relationship aspect too right? What would happen to their Eck
friends or family members if they left? What would Eckists do with
their free time if they were no longer in Eckankar and servants of
their Mahanta?

(revised)
Hmmmmmm. Maybe Eckists need to be free to be their own Masters.
Afterall, how long do they need to be followers? Aren't they
learning anything about Self-Mastery or Spiritual Freedom? One
doesn't need to join the H.I. club (RESA hierarchy) like everyone
else do they? AND, aren't there other people in the world who are
already of a Higher Consciousness (God-Realized) without the "Eck"
initiations? Sure, there are plenty of people that are much more
enlightened that Klemp or the average H.I. or even the "true" blue
H.I.s! Eckists need to look around and they will see! These are
FACTS and more reasons why Eckankar is all a lie! Eckists just don't
think things through - many are as brain-washed as the religious
fundamentalists!

Prometheus

Klemp's new and updated instructions to Higher Initiates (Eck
Leaders) on Not using "BUTs," especially, should also give different
perspectives and meanings to the older writings of the Shariyats.
Check out pages 234-289 of the Shariyat Books 1&2 and see what is
being said about "love," etc. and look for all of those "BUTs" as
well!

(This is a repost to remind Eckists of these instructions and the
new perspective that it creates when followed.)

********************************************************************
Klemp talks about Not using "Ifs" "Ands" and "Buts" within the Eck
community and forgets to follow his own advice in: the Letter of
Light, The Mystic World, or this H.I. Letter! Or, perhaps Klemp is
just all talk and is mentioning this quote from Kant to sound well
read and intelligent like G.W. Bush his hero. The bigger question is
why are these words okay for public use and Not for Eckists (other
than Klemp)? LOL!

December 2005 H.I. LETTER-

[HK] "Next, I need to translate those images into today's language.
That's why much of my writing is simple. It leaves less room for
misinterpreting and makes translating into other languages easier."

[Me] The Shariyats Do Not use "simple" language and they are
the "Holy Books" of Eckankar and are offered to the foreign public.
Is Klemp thinking about simplifying them? It is not so much the
language that HK uses as to the content. Klemp must be reading these
posts for him to be so defensive about this and needing to explain
himself.

[HK] "I take care to translate the images from the ECK to human
language as accurately as possible. They flow through directly in a
burst."

[Me] How does something "flow" in a "burst?" It would help if Klemp
(the Mahanta) would use the correct choice of words! Perhaps he
should have said that, They "come" through directly in a burst or
that They "appear" or "manifest" directly in a burst. These sound
better, make more sense, and are more accurate!

[HK] "Many are sharing their ideas from the mental arena, and it
uplifts people. I look at the ideas and thoughts of philosophers."

[Me] Really! I though that all of these past ideas and thoughts were
below the consciousness of the current Eck teachings! If the
consciousness of Twitchell is lower that today's Mahanta
Consciousness what about the past thoughts and ideas of non-Masters
or even non-Living (in a physical body) Eck Masters?! What about the
consciousness of the Shariyats?

[HK] "One thing that strikes me about Immanuel Kant was something he
said that acts out an appreciation for life, which shows gratitude
in experssion. He said, no ifs, ands, or buts. By that he meant.
make your statements clean and clear."

[Me] The B.S. meter is starting to rise higher! Question: Why does
Klemp view Kant's opinions so highly? I don't!

[HK] "Suppose one, for example, says to a student, 'Study hard if
you want to make your degree.' Kant says, forget the stuff at the
end. Say just, 'Study hard.'

[Me] I think that the "if" is just giving emphasis and focus to the
point being made... Study hard for that degree. Actually, some
people don't even have to "Study hard." Both comments are simply
opinion and is probably based on past experience and observation.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
                     -INSTRUCTIONS TO H.I.s-
[HK] "When someone says BUT, its a Nail in the Coffin of Invention.
A constant Stream of Contradictions Shuts Off Creativity and a Gift
that may be offered. And when someone says BUT, he's Stopped
Listening. So Be Aware when using IF. And Especially When Using BUT,
because it's Limiting. Move straight ahead. It throws a Condition
under your feet that is a trip wire." [My caps]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


[Me] Trip wire? Nice military jargon Klemp! Is this keeping it
simple and helping to translate your words into other languages? LOL!


                      -MORE INSTRUCTIONS-
[HK] "This Is Pretty Much For Ourselves, because in dealing with
others, you may need to use IF, AND, or BUT." [My caps]


[Me] So, H.I.s Should Not use "IF" in order to give emphasis to a
topic with one another, however, it's okay to use "IF" with the
public! And, H.I. Eck Leaders Should Not use "BUT" with other
Eckists because Klemp says that its use Creates "Contradictions"
and "Shuts Off Creativity and a Gift that may be offered."
However, "BUT" is okay for public use!

[HK] "AND is better because it doesn't limit and is a building
block." [My caps]

[Me] So why mention "and" in the first place? Oh, I know! Kant
mentioned "and," thus,  HK would have to leave this out of
his "philosophical" quote otherwise. Not too clever!

[HK] Yet, IF someone's trying to make plans for you, then you may
need to say, 'BUT I don't want to.' They have no right to make your
plans." [My caps]

[Me] Notice the "Yet IF" that Klemp just used! Klemp can't even get
through his own article before contradicting himself. Also, why not
just say, "I don't want to." Klemp is using a "But" like an "if" and
is not being direct. I guess that nothing applies to him as it
does to everyone else. HK must be above the law! Not really! This
just goes to show how much of a control freak he really is, and, how
much his words can't be trusted! He's as much a liar as Twit was!

Prometheus