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#48686 From: Ion Brown <ionbrown@...>
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:16 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
brown_ion
Send Email Send Email
 
Begin forwarded message:
  I was getting the bite in the after taste of my ethanol, something I don't like
as I make Vodka, Gin, Limoncello etc.
So I applied that old trick called " patients ".... Became more particular about
the cuts and speed of the take off,
of both the heads, hearts and tails.  This gave me hearts at 96% abv, and an
extremely smooth spirit, which suits my taste.
You have to be careful with this as the smoothness belies the strength of the
spirit .
Each to their own.

trust everyone had a merry xmas
Ion

#48687 From: "David Eastham" <planetgong0@...>
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:31 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
planetgong0
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks Ken, yes I think I'll be going down this method in the future.Only thing
I'm now thinking when I give to friends they'll think its not as strong even
though at 40% its actually stronger than the norm 37.5%
Cheers Dave E

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "KM Services" <km_services@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> What you have achieved is to my mind perfect vodka. By carbon filtering you
> have polished the spirit and removed the rough harsh bite which I have never
> enjoyed where as the smoothness in the mouth and slight burn at the back of
> the throat as you swallow is to my mind is perfection. I have on occasions
> had a blind tasting with my Vodka and commercial and find that friends have
> rate mine as the best! Which many of the top brands with sharp bite as the
> home made
>
>
>
> Ken Mc (This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure)
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of David Eastham
> Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012 12:17 a.m.
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
>
>
>
>
>
> I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
> taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50
> dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then
> after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's
> hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm
> feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed
> 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to
> add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body
> else experienced this?
> Dave E
>

#48688 From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:13 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
robbie46
Send Email Send Email
 
Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails. Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?

Thanks,
Robbie PS No such thing as Too Smooth

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:

I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka. For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor. Congratz.

Robert




From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?

I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
Dave E





#48689 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:54 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
Yes, that was a little confusing.  If your wash is 100% and you produced 14% alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining.  If your 100% is of your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.

If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to defy smooth reasoning.  One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%, and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable.  From my readings, they suggest head cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.)  Some suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of Ethanol in their wash.  My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I will be looking at some extreme tail cuts. 

How much water did you use?
How much sugar did you start with?
What were your temp cut offs?

Robert



From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?

 
Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?

Thanks,
 Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
 
I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.

Robert




From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?

 
I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
Dave E







#48690 From: Robert1971 <robertjohnson1971@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:31 pm
Subject: Re: Thumber Sizing
robertjohnso...
Send Email Send Email
 
Does anybody have an idea of how far the internal heating elements should be placed from the bottom of the pot?  5",10" etc..... Do you put one at 5" and the other at 10"?  Or do you put them both at the same elevation?  What is best or common?  Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 20, 2012, at 1:36 PM, Eddie Hoskin <eddie_hoskin@...> wrote:

 

The biggest issue I've run across with a thumper is simply that you are going to pick up the characteristics of whatever you put into it.

That is to say, if you load it with heads or tails, then the product that comes out is going to tend to be loaded with heads or tails.  All those hard-won hearts will be effectively contaminated with inferior product.

But then again, I've heard of fun things you can do with them too--for instance, 'infusing' a run with a differently flavored spirit.  I.e., if you load the thumper with a peach liquor, then the resulting product will absorba lot of those characteristics.

In the end, I'd personally recommend building the column that you need to serve your purposes.  A basic reflux column can be as simple as a tall copper pipe with some filler material (copper scrubbies, marbles, you get the idea) that will actually do the job your hoping to accomplish.

I'm happy with my (albeit infrequently used) still with a simple 3/4" copper column that rises for 24".  I do a simple stripping run, then one spirit run.  I get in the neighborhood of 75-82% on the hearts :).

Hope that helps,
Eddie



From: RLB <last2blast@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Thumber Sizing

 
P.S  In all of my reading there was no distinction as to thumper size.  The smaller the thumper, the faster it would become super saturated, but it would produce Ethanol with more of a bite.

Robert 



From: civmmc01 <buildingmotive@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:35 PM
Subject: [Distillers] Thumber Sizing

 
For a long time I've made double runs from the pot still. I'd like to build a thumper rig to cut down on time from running everything twice.

I'm running a 15 gallon keg boiler. I've heard a lot about thumper sizing, how full to fill it and what to fill it with (mash, tail, etc)

I'm not sure what I've read is good advice, and what is just BS.

Any suggestions on starting up a thumper for a 15 gallon keg as far as size, fill volume, and what I'm filling it with?

Thanks and shine safe!






#48691 From: "KM Services" <km_services@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:21 pm
Subject: RE: Too smooth?
goodyear1952
Send Email Send Email
 

Dave,

If it is of any help this is how I operate my still is from my files section in New Distillers

 

 

RUNNING A REFLUX STILL…

Here is a basic run down on what I do ….hope it helps.

When you come to running the still cuts are the key to quality and you should not be

getting “Lower Grade” alcohol as these are heads and tails and should be kept for

redistilling as the good drinkable is ethanol and it here is a guide to basically getting

good ”heart” to drink. The cuts consist of basically 4 components and if making

neutral alcohol, then only the ethanol should be kept (also called the middle run or

"hearts") - this requires a reflux still.

1st cut is the foreshot which is 50mls and is thrown away or used as a fire starter and

consists of and yes is potential for some methanol produced in all fermentations -

more so in grains and fruit musts, worts or mashes and less in sugar washes

( Do Not Freak Out See Note Below).

Comment From Harry: Not all washes contain "methanol" per se. Only grain & fruitbased

washes have that "potential". But all washes DO contain low boiling point

"contaminants". methanol is but one of many possibilities.

And in these minute quantities it is (if present at all) way less than you will find in a

glass of ordinary orange juice, and WAY less than you will find in commercial spirits

There is are some acetone (nail polish remover), ethyl acetates and other

contaminating compounds in the Foreshots and Heads which are the lower

boiling point contaminates and alcohols.

Acetone 56.5C (134F)

Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)

The fore shots should be taken very slowly (at 1>2 drops per second) by cranking up

the water flow to slow it down if running a CM Head as I do.

2nd cut is the Heads which for you still will be around 100mls to 200mls and is kept

and added to the next distil if you want neutral and primarily a fruity smelling alcohol

Ethyl acetate

77.1C (171F) and within 1Deg C of ethanol (the good stuff)

3rd cut is the Heats or Middle which depends on how fussy you want to be with this

take and slower is better and try and keep the Head at around 78C to 80C for this

collect (the ethanol range) and collect say 2 litres then collect in 250ml increments

and if you can not control the head temperature or smell changes then collect the

balance as tails in a separate container (added to the heads for later redistilling)Also

monitor the Abv and do not collect below 70% ABV if going for neutral for

flavouring or if I want really good Vodka I cut at about 90% ABV and collect the rest

as Tails

4th cut is the Tails and there is still plenty of ethanol in the cut but has lots of flavour

and smell which if you are using a grain mash for whiskey is collected in small

containers and blended to flavour, however, if making white spirits needs to be cut out

and the higher temp ones tend to smell of old wet socks!and this contains the

following alcohols

2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)

1-Propanol 97C (207F)

Water 100C (212F)

Butanol 116C (241F)

Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)

Furfural 161C (322F)

The heads and the foreshots is the “Hangover Zone” so care with this cut makes a

better morning and the tails cut gives the clean good tasting alcohol.

A golden rule is “do not be greedy” because that extra alcohol may well contaminate

the rest of the hearts take hence the reason for collecting in smaller container when

nearing the tails cut.

Filtering will greatly improve any neutral, but the key is to cut it to 50%ABV as

carbon doesn’t work at higher ABV’s and the carbon must be saturated with water not

merely wetted.

I use a Z filter and will rinse for 15 minutes the place my filled filter in a bucket of

water (weighed down) over night to completely saturate and then run my grog through

at least 3 times then cut to 37% to 40%ABV for drinking as Vodka or flavouring?

Aging etc.?

Have Fun with this all engrossing hobby

Cheers Ken Mc

 

 

cheers  Ken Mc

Moderator :  Y! new_distillers    Y! Distillers

Forums Info:  FAQ    Policy    Settings

 


From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robbie Mabry
Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012 11:13 a.m.
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?

 

 

Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?

 

Thanks,

 Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:

 

I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.

Robert

 

 


From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?

 

 

I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
Dave E

 

 


#48692 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:41 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
The only thing that needs commenting about is temps.  Yes, Acetone 56.5C (134F) and Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F) boil at these temps in a perfect world, but they are combined with water and other chemicals as you described.  This is where it gets crazy because water increases those boiling points.  Methanol in water should boil somewhere around 173 F, and the good stuff on the list boils at 171 F.  Other than temps, everything I have read agrees with this list.  My interest in temps had me thinking that I could set the temp at say 173 F and extract all of the Methanol before doing a heart cut.  The sad truth is that the more Methanol and Ethanol you remove from you wash, you need higher temps to remove the same amount of Methanol and Ethanol.  By no means am I a chemist, but higher temps to remove more Ethanol seems reasonable.  Play with it and see what happens.

Robert
 




From: KM Services <km_services@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 2:21 PM
Subject: RE: [Distillers] Too smooth?

 
Dave,
If it is of any help this is how I operate my still is from my files section in New Distillers
 
 
RUNNING A REFLUX STILL…
Here is a basic run down on what I do ….hope it helps.
When you come to running the still cuts are the key to quality and you should not be
getting “Lower Grade” alcohol as these are heads and tails and should be kept for
redistilling as the good drinkable is ethanol and it here is a guide to basically getting
good ”heart” to drink. The cuts consist of basically 4 components and if making
neutral alcohol, then only the ethanol should be kept (also called the middle run or
"hearts") - this requires a reflux still.
1st cut is the foreshot which is 50mls and is thrown away or used as a fire starter and
consists of and yes is potential for some methanol produced in all fermentations -
more so in grains and fruit musts, worts or mashes and less in sugar washes
( Do Not Freak Out See Note Below).
Comment From Harry: Not all washes contain "methanol" per se. Only grain & fruitbased
washes have that "potential". But all washes DO contain low boiling point
"contaminants". methanol is but one of many possibilities.
And in these minute quantities it is (if present at all) way less than you will find in a
glass of ordinary orange juice, and WAY less than you will find in commercial spirits
There is are some acetone (nail polish remover), ethyl acetates and other
contaminating compounds in the Foreshots and Heads which are the lower
boiling point contaminates and alcohols.
Acetone 56.5C (134F)
Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
The fore shots should be taken very slowly (at 1>2 drops per second) by cranking up
the water flow to slow it down if running a CM Head as I do.
2nd cut is the Heads which for you still will be around 100mls to 200mls and is kept
and added to the next distil if you want neutral and primarily a fruity smelling alcohol
Ethyl acetate
77.1C (171F) and within 1Deg C of ethanol (the good stuff)
3rd cut is the Heats or Middle which depends on how fussy you want to be with this
take and slower is better and try and keep the Head at around 78C to 80C for this
collect (the ethanol range) and collect say 2 litres then collect in 250ml increments
and if you can not control the head temperature or smell changes then collect the
balance as tails in a separate container (added to the heads for later redistilling)Also
monitor the Abv and do not collect below 70% ABV if going for neutral for
flavouring or if I want really good Vodka I cut at about 90% ABV and collect the rest
as Tails
4th cut is the Tails and there is still plenty of ethanol in the cut but has lots of flavour
and smell which if you are using a grain mash for whiskey is collected in small
containers and blended to flavour, however, if making white spirits needs to be cut out
and the higher temp ones tend to smell of old wet socks!and this contains the
following alcohols
2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
1-Propanol 97C (207F)
Water 100C (212F)
Butanol 116C (241F)
Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
Furfural 161C (322F)
The heads and the foreshots is the “Hangover Zone” so care with this cut makes a
better morning and the tails cut gives the clean good tasting alcohol.
A golden rule is “do not be greedy” because that extra alcohol may well contaminate
the rest of the hearts take hence the reason for collecting in smaller container when
nearing the tails cut.
Filtering will greatly improve any neutral, but the key is to cut it to 50%ABV as
carbon doesn’t work at higher ABV’s and the carbon must be saturated with water not
merely wetted.
I use a Z filter and will rinse for 15 minutes the place my filled filter in a bucket of
water (weighed down) over night to completely saturate and then run my grog through
at least 3 times then cut to 37% to 40%ABV for drinking as Vodka or flavouring?
Aging etc.?
Have Fun with this all engrossing hobby
Cheers Ken Mc
 
 
cheers  Ken Mc
Moderator :  Y! new_distillers    Y! Distillers
Forums Info:  FAQ    Policy    Settings
 

From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Robbie Mabry
Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012 11:13 a.m.
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
 
 
Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?
 
Thanks,
 Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
 
I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.

Robert
 
 

From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
 
 
I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
Dave E
 
 



#48693 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: Thumber Sizing
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
Tube depth depends on a number of factors like overall thumper depth.  You would never place both tubes at the same height.  What is your thumper made out of is an other factor.  A metal or glass thumper can handle temps better, so you can place the intake within 1" of the bottom and outlet 1" from the top.  A wood thumper will be affected by heat more than metal or glass, so you would want the intake at least 3" from the bottom.  Fill the thumper half way with clean water or collected heads and tails.  Play around with inlet depth. because the deeper the inlet is it should give a better flavor.

Robert



From: Robert1971 <robertjohnson1971@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Thumber Sizing

 
Does anybody have an idea of how far the internal heating elements should be placed from the bottom of the pot?  5",10" etc..... Do you put one at 5" and the other at 10"?  Or do you put them both at the same elevation?  What is best or common?  Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 20, 2012, at 1:36 PM, Eddie Hoskin <eddie_hoskin@...> wrote:

 
The biggest issue I've run across with a thumper is simply that you are going to pick up the characteristics of whatever you put into it.

That is to say, if you load it with heads or tails, then the product that comes out is going to tend to be loaded with heads or tails.  All those hard-won hearts will be effectively contaminated with inferior product.

But then again, I've heard of fun things you can do with them too--for instance, 'infusing' a run with a differently flavored spirit.  I.e., if you load the thumper with a peach liquor, then the resulting product will absorba lot of those characteristics.

In the end, I'd personally recommend building the column that you need to serve your purposes.  A basic reflux column can be as simple as a tall copper pipe with some filler material (copper scrubbies, marbles, you get the idea) that will actually do the job your hoping to accomplish.

I'm happy with my (albeit infrequently used) still with a simple 3/4" copper column that rises for 24".  I do a simple stripping run, then one spirit run.  I get in the neighborhood of 75-82% on the hearts :).

Hope that helps,
Eddie



From: RLB <last2blast@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2012 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Thumber Sizing

 
P.S  In all of my reading there was no distinction as to thumper size.  The smaller the thumper, the faster it would become super saturated, but it would produce Ethanol with more of a bite.

Robert 



From: civmmc01 <buildingmotive@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:35 PM
Subject: [Distillers] Thumber Sizing

 
For a long time I've made double runs from the pot still. I'd like to build a thumper rig to cut down on time from running everything twice.

I'm running a 15 gallon keg boiler. I've heard a lot about thumper sizing, how full to fill it and what to fill it with (mash, tail, etc)

I'm not sure what I've read is good advice, and what is just BS.

Any suggestions on starting up a thumper for a 15 gallon keg as far as size, fill volume, and what I'm filling it with?

Thanks and shine safe!








#48694 From: "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:43 am
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
tgfoitwoods
Send Email Send Email
 
Robert,

You are operating under a large and debilitating, but extremely common (among folks that have yet to distill), misconception about boiling points and evaporation. The misconception is so common that I may have answered it 30 or more times in my period as a moderator here.

Let me just include what I saved last time someone got lost on these points. For clarification, the wash in his boiler had a starting boiling point of ~200F.

It sounds like you just got bit by the most common misconception of beginning distillers. When you say "methanol boils at 148 (F)" it sounds like you believe that ALL methanol boils at 148F, when actually only PURE methanol boils at 148F. In fact, when you mix methanol with other stuff, like ethanol and water and ethyl acetate and acetone and all the stuff you have in your still wash, that mixture boils exactly at whatever the hell temperature it wants to, determined by the math of Raoult's law complicated by the formation of azeotropes between and among the liquids in the mixture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoult%27s_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

The practical application of this is if the mixture of ethanol, methanol, water, ethyl acetate, and acetone in your (potstill, I'm assuming, by the symptoms) has a boiling point of 200F (and it sounds like yours did), you can heat that wash to 148, or 173, or any other temperature less than 200, and absolutely nothing will boil. In terms of practical distillation, nothing at all will happen. As an aside, it should be clear you can't heat it hotter than the boiling point.

On the other hand, after the still wash temperature comes to the boiling point of that particular liquid mixture, all of the liquid will boil, and all the components will evaporate, comparative rates determined by Roault's law. As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the condensed vapors will progress from foreshots to heads, hearts, and tails, and that's what distilling is all about.

If you wish to see a graph of boiling points of simple ethanol-water boiling points, I can point you to such a graph.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
>
> The only thing that needs commenting about is temps.  Yes,Acetone 56.5C (134F) andMethanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F) boil at these temps in a perfect world, but they are combined with water and other chemicals as you described.  This is where it gets crazy because water increases those boiling points.  Methanol in watershould boil somewhere around 173 F, and the good stuff on the list boils at 171 F.  Other than temps, everything I have read agrees with this list.  My interest in temps had me thinking that I could set the temp at say 173 F and extract all of the Methanol before doing a heart cut.  The sad truth is that the more Methanol and Ethanol you remove from you wash, you need higher temps to remove the same amount of Methanol and Ethanol.  By no means am I a chemist, but higher temps to remove more Ethanol seems reasonable.  Play with it and see what happens.
>
> Robert 
>
>
----snip----
>

#48695 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:14 am
Subject: Re: Re: Too smooth?
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
Actually, I was trying to say what you had stated, but you said it much better.  To tell you the truth, I was surprised to learn there was a difference between pure and mixed boiling points.  I was even more surprised to learn that water will boil at around 199 F where I live because I don't live near sea level.  Which means that it will take a lot of experimentation for me to find my cuts.  Thanks for the info.

Robert



From: tgfoitwoods <zymurgybob@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:43 PM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: Too smooth?

 
Robert,

You are operating under a large and debilitating, but extremely common (among folks that have yet to distill), misconception about boiling points and evaporation. The misconception is so common that I may have answered it 30 or more times in my period as a moderator here.

Let me just include what I saved last time someone got lost on these points. For clarification, the wash in his boiler had a starting boiling point of ~200F.

It sounds like you just got bit by the most common misconception of beginning distillers. When you say "methanol boils at 148 (F)" it sounds like you believe that ALL methanol boils at 148F, when actually only PURE methanol boils at 148F. In fact, when you mix methanol with other stuff, like ethanol and water and ethyl acetate and acetone and all the stuff you have in your still wash, that mixture boils exactly at whatever the hell temperature it wants to, determined by the math of Raoult's law complicated by the formation of azeotropes between and among the liquids in the mixture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoult%27s_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

The practical application of this is if the mixture of ethanol, methanol, water, ethyl acetate, and acetone in your (potstill, I'm assuming, by the symptoms) has a boiling point of 200F (and it sounds like yours did), you can heat that wash to 148, or 173, or any other temperature less than 200, and absolutely nothing will boil. In terms of practical distillation, nothing at all will happen. As an aside, it should be clear you can't heat it hotter than the boiling point.

On the other hand, after the still wash temperature comes to the boiling point of that particular liquid mixture, all of the liquid will boil, and all the components will evaporate, comparative rates determined by Roault's law. As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the condensed vapors will progress from foreshots to heads, hearts, and tails, and that's what distilling is all about.

If you wish to see a graph of boiling points of simple ethanol-water boiling points, I can point you to such a graph.

Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller Making Fine Spirits


--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB wrote:
>
> The only thing that needs commenting about is temps.  Yes,Acetone 56.5C (134F) andMethanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F) boil at these temps in a perfect world, but they are combined with water and other chemicals as you described.  This is where it gets crazy because water increases those boiling points.  Methanol in watershould boil somewhere around 173 F, and the good stuff on the list boils at 171 F.  Other than temps, everything I have read agrees with this list.  My interest in temps had me thinking that I could set the temp at say 173 F and extract all of the Methanol before doing a heart cut.  The sad truth is that the more Methanol and Ethanol you remove from you wash, you need higher temps to remove the same amount of Methanol and Ethanol.  By no means am I a chemist, but higher temps to remove more Ethanol seems reasonable.  Play with it and see what happens.
>
> Robert 
>
>
----snip----
>



#48696 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:32 am
Subject: Re: Re: Yeast and Fermentation
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
I have told you about my sample dated 11/29/12, and 1 tbsp. of garlic was added to see if it would kill bacteria.  After a month it's still crackling away (fermenting).  This sample started with 1 tbsp. of yeast, and it was re-pitched with a second tbsp of yeast.  Not only is it strange that it's still going strong, but a second sample dated 12/02/12 is also going strong.  2 other samples started after have already been processed by freeze distillation.

The only thing that makes any sense as to why those 2 samples are still fermenting seems to be the low amount of yeast used in those two compared to my most recent samples.  12/13 and 12/16 both used 21g of yeast and were re-pitched with another 7g or 8g of yeast.

My 12/24 sample started with around 35g of yeast, but more sugar than all other samples.  If 12/24 burns out fast, then the only reason why samples 11/29 and 12/02 are still fermenting is the lack of yeast.  If this proves to be the case, I will need to add much larger amounts of yeast so that it will not ferment longer than 2 weeks.

Robert









From: henry sangret <henrysangret@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Yeast and Fermentation

 
Hi I am Henry and have been using these processes for some time. I have used the freezing process and it works well with concentrating the wash, the only downside is it seems to remove many of the volitatle esters used for flavoring, but this isnt a bad thing for vodka or neutral spirits though. Remember the nasties are still in there ( MEK ect.)and need to be gotten rid of before drinking.
 
LOL I have had problems with potential ABV in the wash and gave up trying to measure, I just use the initial calculation and go from there.

From: RLB <last2blast@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Yeast and Fermentation
 
Ah, that would most likely mean that all of my readings with my alcohol proof meter are currently way low on my concentrated wash, and I need to get my other meter out of storage. I am doing my freeze distillation process differently now.  If I am correct that ice crystals will form in Ethanol with a low enough temp, my wash should be able to be reduced even further than ever before using this process.  20% abv. or greater would be fantastic for storage.  Several more experiments are required before moving on to 16% and 20% abv. yeast. Robert


From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Yeast and Fermentation
 
You need a brix or plato hydrometer. 

On Dec 23, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Butch Derickson <derick881@...> wrote:
 
Your alcohol hydrometer cannot be used in the wash to measure alcohol content Sent from my iPhone



#48697 From: henry sangret <henrysangret@...>
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: Freeze distillation
henrysangret
Send Email Send Email
 
I have tried the freeze process and the unwanted's seem to have increased by 5 to 7% in volume and the ABV dropped by aprox the same. I think the Methanol and MEK normally lost in distiillation stays trapped in the unfrozen liquids and some of the alcohol stays trapped in the ice, which accou nts for the increases and losses.
 
For storage I use a simple pot still to reduce the volume by aprox half and save the distillate in a large carbloy until enough is saved to do a large batch run again.

From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Freeze distillation
 
You have to know the freezing point of each alcohol and solve the math for the eutectic state of that solution. Since many of these alcohols freeze in the -70°F range you probably aren't going to be able to do it at home. Accurate fractional freezing requires the math and knowledge of the items in solution.  Freeze distillation is essentially the opposite problem of solving for your azeotrope when regular distilling.  Since ethanol is soluble in water, you probably will see a limit around 40% abv in a regular home freezer. The colder it gets, the more ethanol that's being trapped in your ice water, and you'll end up throwing away much more than you could distill out by volume. It's fun to play with booze though! 



Again, if its just about storage, then sterility and keeping it closed up until ready to use, is the easiest way to store alcohol indefinitely. 
On Dec 26, 2012, at 12:59 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
 
Thank you for this info, and you are correct about everything that you stated pertaining to Freeze Distillation.  Those possible dangers are why I have not tried consuming my concentrated wash.  My future plans include processing my concentrate through a still, which I hope to acquire in January to further my experiments. Freeze distillation is very labor intensive, but my wash samples need to be reduced for storage until they can be processed further.  Since freeze distillation is an interesting process that allows for the removal of water without the dangers of explosions, my experiments will review whether or not freeze distillation offers any benefit to the production of Ethanol for use as spirits. I am new to distillation, so my experiments will wander in many directions to obtain answers to my many questions.  In my readings, there are a minimum of 6 different types of Monohydric alcohols with different boiling points.   Can freeze distillation be used to remove some of these unwanted alcohol compounds from wash prior to distillation? Robert  

From: Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 10:01 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Freeze distillation
 
I thought it might do good to recommend reading about freeze distillation. There are quite a few write ups available on line. One of the easiest to understand is at home distillers dot org wiki page. A simple web search can lead to many good reads. Freeze distillation has been used ever since fermentation got noticed thousands of years ago. It's not a new discovery by any means. There are a lot of good reasons not to rely on the final product. A bad hang over is nothing compared to toxicity from ingesting acetone or methanol. Even as a method to concentrate a ferment before distillation, freezing allows a certain percentage of ethanol to get stuck in with the ice. Freezing does not allow many unwanted by-products to be removed. I have read of a few methods that over came some of the basic drawbacks. One of which is to freeze, slightly thaw, freeze at colder temperature, raise temp. slightly, freeze colder again, and do that repeatedly until the coldest temperature your freezer can achieve is met. What a hassle. Sent from Tim's iPhone
 

#48698 From: "GGB" <self.adhesive@...>
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
girlguidebis...
Send Email Send Email
 
zymurgybob wrote:  "...As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of
the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the
condensed vapors will progress from foreshots to heads, hearts, and tails..."
and that's what distilling is all about."

That's an excellent explanation, thank you Bob.

If operating a reflux still, and as the amount of ethanol declines, does the
distiller try to keep the head temperature at a specific point, by adjusting
refluxing ratio and/or reflux condenser capacity?

As an aside, a friend who is a pilot told me how air drops moisture as it is
pushed up and over a mountain range. It seems to be a refluxing
action...pressure drops, air cools, water condenses, air warms because of the
condensing, some water re-evaporates and is pushed higher where it happens all
over again and again.

Paul

#48699 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Freeze distillation
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
Normally, I would agree with you on freeze distillation but try pressing the ice to remove as much liquid as possible.  In my last 2 freeze distilled samples, my liquid reached 23 oz., and I was feeling fairly good.  If you can achieve a buzz like that from just inhaling the wash fumes, it says a great deal about the Ethanol content.  One showed no proof, and the second sample was listed at 10 proof @ 33 F.  Since those 2 sample still contain yeast and solids, any alcohol reading would not be correct.

Robert



From: henry sangret <henrysangret@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Freeze distillation

 
I have tried the freeze process and the unwanted's seem to have increased by 5 to 7% in volume and the ABV dropped by aprox the same. I think the Methanol and MEK normally lost in distiillation stays trapped in the unfrozen liquids and some of the alcohol stays trapped in the ice, which accou nts for the increases and losses.
 
For storage I use a simple pot still to reduce the volume by aprox half and save the distillate in a large carbloy until enough is saved to do a large batch run again.

From: Fredrick Lee <fredrick@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Freeze distillation
 
You have to know the freezing point of each alcohol and solve the math for the eutectic state of that solution. Since many of these alcohols freeze in the -70°F range you probably aren't going to be able to do it at home. Accurate fractional freezing requires the math and knowledge of the items in solution.  Freeze distillation is essentially the opposite problem of solving for your azeotrope when regular distilling.  Since ethanol is soluble in water, you probably will see a limit around 40% abv in a regular home freezer. The colder it gets, the more ethanol that's being trapped in your ice water, and you'll end up throwing away much more than you could distill out by volume. It's fun to play with booze though! 



Again, if its just about storage, then sterility and keeping it closed up until ready to use, is the easiest way to store alcohol indefinitely. 
On Dec 26, 2012, at 12:59 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
 
Thank you for this info, and you are correct about everything that you stated pertaining to Freeze Distillation.  Those possible dangers are why I have not tried consuming my concentrated wash.  My future plans include processing my concentrate through a still, which I hope to acquire in January to further my experiments. Freeze distillation is very labor intensive, but my wash samples need to be reduced for storage until they can be processed further.  Since freeze distillation is an interesting process that allows for the removal of water without the dangers of explosions, my experiments will review whether or not freeze distillation offers any benefit to the production of Ethanol for use as spirits. I am new to distillation, so my experiments will wander in many directions to obtain answers to my many questions.  In my readings, there are a minimum of 6 different types of Monohydric alcohols with different boiling points.   Can freeze distillation be used to remove some of these unwanted alcohol compounds from wash prior to distillation? Robert  

From: Timothy C Smoth <timothyc.smith@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 10:01 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Freeze distillation
 
I thought it might do good to recommend reading about freeze distillation. There are quite a few write ups available on line. One of the easiest to understand is at home distillers dot org wiki page. A simple web search can lead to many good reads. Freeze distillation has been used ever since fermentation got noticed thousands of years ago. It's not a new discovery by any means. There are a lot of good reasons not to rely on the final product. A bad hang over is nothing compared to toxicity from ingesting acetone or methanol. Even as a method to concentrate a ferment before distillation, freezing allows a certain percentage of ethanol to get stuck in with the ice. Freezing does not allow many unwanted by-products to be removed. I have read of a few methods that over came some of the basic drawbacks. One of which is to freeze, slightly thaw, freeze at colder temperature, raise temp. slightly, freeze colder again, and do that repeatedly until the coldest temperature your freezer can achieve is met. What a hassle. Sent from Tim's iPhone
 



#48700 From: "waljaco" <waljaco@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 1:42 pm
Subject: Gin Institute
waljaco
Send Email Send Email
 
#48701 From: "waljaco" <waljaco@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 2:02 pm
Subject: Boutique distilleries in London
waljaco
Send Email Send Email
 
A revival after some 200 years!

http://www.sipsmith.com

wal

#48702 From: "waljaco" <waljaco@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: Boutique distilleries in London
waljaco
Send Email Send Email
 
More distilleries -

http://imbibe.com/feature/getting-into-spirit-rise-rise/1129

wal

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> A revival after some 200 years!
>
> http://www.sipsmith.com
>
> wal
>

#48703 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 7:50 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Boutique distilleries in London
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
The Unites States does not make it easy to become an artisan distiller, unless you can fork over many thousands of dollars.  Besides the surety ($15,000 minimum) bond and transportation bond ($1,000 minimum), you have to deal with each state who require expensive licenses.  You have to have a separate building and warehouse other than your home.  You must provide them with your formula(s), and bottle label(s), a complete list of your equipment, and you must keep detailed records.  You must then wait at least 3 months to be approved if they do not require an inspection or change in your application.  THIS IS ALL BEFORE YOU CAN LEGALLY PRODUCE ONE DROP OF ETHANOL, and they wonder why there are still so many active moonshines.    We can't even experiment distill without forking over many thousands of dollars.  Most bio-fuel plants will cost you around $500,000 before you produce a drop of Ethanol.  Yes, my Ethanol sample experiments are totally illegal, but I would love to take this government sponsored monopoly to our highest court.  We can make beer and wine legally in our home, but its illegal to make Home brew, wort, or wash for the expressed purpose of distilling.  The US seems more interested in preventing artisan distillers rather than promoting them by making it easier for new artisan distillers to enter this field.  By suppressing new artisan distillers, the US is missing out on a large untapped tax revenue source.

It is imperative that the US needs to change its laws to promote more small artisan distillers.

Robert  





From: waljaco <waljaco@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: Boutique distilleries in London

 
More distilleries -

http://imbibe.com/feature/getting-into-spirit-rise-rise/1129

wal

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> A revival after some 200 years!
>
> http://www.sipsmith.com
>
> wal
>




#48704 From: Peggy Korth <rpk@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 8:05 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Boutique distilleries in London
rpkwater1
Send Email Send Email
 
Distilling in the US

How could the regulators gather the taxes?  On an honor system? 

It is also difficult for a fuel distiller EXCEPT making one's own fuel is legal--at least for now.  You cannot move the alcohol off the property, use it on a roadway, or sell it unless you jump through many regulatory hoops.  Daddy Bigbucks controls the law makers.  And law makers make laws.  We also have 'regulatory' commissions that need to be paid and governments that need feeding/ taxes.  However, most brew shops now sell stills.  This could be a sign that there is not much interest in cracking down on personal distilled products.  And times they are a'changin.  Happy New Year and keep up the route to excellence.  You are much appreciated.

Peggy


The Unites States does not make it easy to become an artisan distiller, unless you can fork over many thousands of dollars.  Besides the surety ($15,000 minimum) bond and transportation bond ($1,000 minimum), you have to deal with each state who require expensive licenses.  You have to have a separate building and warehouse other than your home.  You must provide them with your formula(s), and bottle label(s), a complete list of your equipment, and you must keep detailed records.  You must then wait at least 3 months to be approved if they do not require an inspection or change in your application.  THIS IS ALL BEFORE YOU CAN LEGALLY PRODUCE ONE DROP OF ETHANOL, and they wonder why there are still so many active moonshines.    We can't even experiment distill without forking over many thousands of dollars.  Most bio-fuel plants will cost you around $500,000 before you produce a drop of Ethanol.  Yes, my Ethanol sample experiments are totally illegal, but I would love to take this government sponsored monopoly to our highest court.  We can make beer and wine legally in our home, but its illegal to make Home brew, wort, or wash for the expressed purpose of distilling.  The US seems more interested in preventing artisan distillers rather than promoting them by making it easier for new artisan distillers to enter this field.  By suppressing new artisan distillers, the US is missing out on a large untapped tax revenue source.

It is imperative that the US needs to change its laws to promote more small artisan distillers.

Robert  





From: waljaco <waljaco@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: Boutique distilleries in London

 
More distilleries -

http://imbibe.com/feature/getting-into-spirit-rise-rise/1129

wal

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> A revival after some 200 years!
>
> http://www.sipsmith.com
>
> wal
>




#48705 From: Elm Brook <elmbrook@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 10:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Boutique distilleries in London
elmbrook...
Send Email Send Email
 
Robert, I don't often bother responding to specific posts but I must say that for me much of what you write is inaccurate.  Let's start with a surety bond - a $15,000 bond can be purchased for several hundred dollars a year.  Formulas are as simple as informing the TTB what you use to make your spirit.  Yes you need a separate building but you need a separate building for lots products consumers buy such as cheese, milk and cookies etc. As for the time to get the permit - it took me about a month from application to permit.  I don't know where the thousands of dollars you talk about but the only fees I paid were the couple hundred bucks for the surety bond.  Now could the whole permit process be easier - yes it could but please don't exaggerate.  The biggest hurdle to a commercial distiller is the ability to make a great product that consumers will want to buy.  The Feds just want to know that you're paying your taxes and that you know what you're doing.  Here's our family's farm web site.  It talks about our small artisan distillery on our farm:  elmbrookfarm.com   I hope you find this post useful.
E

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 1, 2013, at 2:50 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:

 

The Unites States does not make it easy to become an artisan distiller, unless you can fork over many thousands of dollars.  Besides the surety ($15,000 minimum) bond and transportation bond ($1,000 minimum), you have to deal with each state who require expensive licenses.  You have to have a separate building and warehouse other than your home.  You must provide them with your formula(s), and bottle label(s), a complete list of your equipment, and you must keep detailed records.  You must then wait at least 3 months to be approved if they do not require an inspection or change in your application.  THIS IS ALL BEFORE YOU CAN LEGALLY PRODUCE ONE DROP OF ETHANOL, and they wonder why there are still so many active moonshines.    We can't even experiment distill without forking over many thousands of dollars.  Most bio-fuel plants will cost you around $500,000 before you produce a drop of Ethanol.  Yes, my Ethanol sample experiments are totally illegal, but I would love to take this government sponsored monopoly to our highest court.  We can make beer and wine legally in our home, but its illegal to make Home brew, wort, or wash for the expressed purpose of distilling.  The US seems more interested in preventing artisan distillers rather than promoting them by making it easier for new artisan distillers to enter this field.  By suppressing new artisan distillers, the US is missing out on a large untapped tax revenue source.

It is imperative that the US needs to change its laws to promote more small artisan distillers.

Robert  





From: waljaco <waljaco@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: Boutique distilleries in London

 
More distilleries -

http://imbibe.com/feature/getting-into-spirit-rise-rise/1129

wal

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> A revival after some 200 years!
>
> http://www.sipsmith.com
>
> wal
>




#48706 From: RLB <last2blast@...>
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2013 12:15 am
Subject: Re: Re: Boutique distilleries in London
last2blast
Send Email Send Email
 
@E

I contacted the TTB.  They told me that I would need a $15,000 surety bond and a $1,000 transport bond, but I have no idea how much they cost.  I contacted a bond broker, but he never responded to my request.  If you go to the TTB web site it states that if you mail in your application it will take an average of 87 days for approval if you made no errors, or they request  further information.  If you send your application electronically, it stated the average process time is 67 days.  Who did you payoff to get your permit in a month?  I know a lot of people who make cheese and baked goods in their kitchen after it was inspected by the New York State Heath Department.  You overlooked NYS ABC because they have their hand out as well.  TTB website was not clear on how detailed they wanted those formulas to be, but the labels are very specific on the information you must provide.  If the TTB says something, I would tend to believe them, and I don't see where there is any exaggeration in anything that was stated in my message.

Robert



From: Elm Brook <elmbrook@...>
To: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Distillers@yahoogroups.com" <Distillers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Re: Boutique distilleries in London

 
Robert, I don't often bother responding to specific posts but I must say that for me much of what you write is inaccurate.  Let's start with a surety bond - a $15,000 bond can be purchased for several hundred dollars a year.  Formulas are as simple as informing the TTB what you use to make your spirit.  Yes you need a separate building but you need a separate building for lots products consumers buy such as cheese, milk and cookies etc. As for the time to get the permit - it took me about a month from application to permit.  I don't know where the thousands of dollars you talk about but the only fees I paid were the couple hundred bucks for the surety bond.  Now could the whole permit process be easier - yes it could but please don't exagegerate.  The biggest hurdle to a commercial distiller is the ability to make a great product that consumers will want to buy.  The Feds just want to know that you're paying your taxes and that you know what you're doing.  Here's our family's farm web site.  It talks about our small artisan distillery on our farm:  elmbrookfarm.com   I hope you find this post useful.
E

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 1, 2013, at 2:50 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:

 
The Unites States does not make it easy to become an artisan distiller, unless you can fork over many thousands of dollars.  Besides the surety ($15,000 minimum) bond and transportation bond ($1,000 minimum), you have to deal with each state who require expensive licenses.  You have to have a separate building and warehouse other than your home.  You must provide them with your formula(s), and bottle label(s), a complete list of your equipment, and you must keep detailed records.  You must then wait at least 3 months to be approved if they do not require an inspection or change in your application.  THIS IS ALL BEFORE YOU CAN LEGALLY PRODUCE ONE DROP OF ETHANOL, and they wonder why there are still so many active moonshines.    We can't even experiment distill without forking over many thousands of dollars.  Most bio-fuel plants will cost you around $500,000 before you produce a drop of Ethanol.  Yes, my Ethanol sample experiments are totally illegal, but I would love to take this government sponsored monopoly to our highest court.  We can make beer and wine legally in our home, but its illegal to make Home brew, wort, or wash for the expressed purpose of distilling.  The US seems more interested in preventing artisan distillers rather than promoting them by making it easier for new artisan distillers to enter this field.  By suppressing new artisan distillers, the US is missing out on a large untapped tax revenue source.

It is imperative that the US needs to change its laws to promote more small artisan distillers.

Robert  





From: waljaco <waljaco@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Re: Boutique distilleries in London

 
More distilleries -

http://imbibe.com/feature/getting-into-spirit-rise-rise/1129

wal

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
>
> A revival after some 200 years!
>
> http://www.sipsmith.com
>
> wal
>






#48707 From: "Shane" <shanemcd76@...>
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2013 7:48 pm
Subject: stove top pot still
shanemcd76
Send Email Send Email
 
once ive reached my tempature of 175 degrees do i need to control the heat or
can i just leave the heat on high

#48708 From: "Er. Prashant Jha" <prashant771@...>
Date: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:49 am
Subject: Re: Re: Too smooth?
lovelife_1857
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks Bob and Ken Mc

U both are awesome.

Dave has fortunately made a good vodka but he doesnt believe that he done so.

Thanks for the information Ken Mc. Your explanation is very good.


On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 4:14 AM, GGB <self.adhesive@...> wrote:

zymurgybob wrote: "...As the boiling changes the respective concentrations of the liquid components in the wash, the boiling point will change, and the condensed vapors will progress from foreshots to heads, hearts, and tails..." and that's what distilling is all about."

That's an excellent explanation, thank you Bob.

If operating a reflux still, and as the amount of ethanol declines, does the distiller try to keep the head temperature at a specific point, by adjusting refluxing ratio and/or reflux condenser capacity?

As an aside, a friend who is a pilot told me how air drops moisture as it is pushed up and over a mountain range. It seems to be a refluxing action...pressure drops, air cools, water condenses, air warms because of the condensing, some water re-evaporates and is pushed higher where it happens all over again and again.

Paul





--
Er. Prashant Jha
Asst. Engineer
Sri Renuka Sugars Limited



#48709 From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
robbie46
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks Robert, That helps clear it up. This is a long way from the way my Father and Grandfather use to make it when I was a kid. Their interest was tosupplementour income, so everything that came out of the still past the first pint was sold. Scares me to think about it!

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:54 AM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:

Yes, that was a little confusing. If your wash is 100% and you produced 14% alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining. If your 100% is of your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.

If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to defy smooth reasoning. One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%, and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable. From my readings, they suggest head cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.) Some suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of Ethanol in their wash. My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I will be looking at some extreme tail cuts.

How much water did you use?
How much sugar did you start with?
What were your temp cut offs?

Robert



From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?

Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails. Are those percentages of the total amount distilled?

Thanks,
Robbie PS No such thing as Too Smooth

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka. For me, my goal is smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor. Congratz.

Robert




From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?

I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50 dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
Dave E








#48710 From: "James" <gone2tx@...>
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:27 am
Subject: Peated Scotch
gonetotx
Send Email Send Email
 
I believe I have made a major mistake while trying to make a peated scotch. I am
wanting to make an Islay-type scotch with the high phenol flavor. Although the
local homebrew shop suggested I use peat smoked malt very sparingly, I figured
they were referring to smoked beer requirements and not spirit requirements. So
I decided to combine 80% Golden Promise with 20% peat smoked malt for my grain
bill. I have already made 2/3 of the low wines for this run but have not begun
any final spirit run. Now I have just read about a possible difference between
"peat smoked flavor" and "peat flavor", the first being produced by the smoked
grain and the second being caused by the use of peat flavored water.

My questions: Did I use way too much peat smoked barley and will this cause an
overpowering aroma to my scotch? If so, is dilution the only way to correct
this? Also, I've been doing some searching through the Group's past postings and
found a reference to "essence of peat reek". Is this a good alternative to using
natural peat filtered water to gain the phenol characteristic? Any other
suggestions for making an Islay-style scotch would be much appreciated. Happy
Holidays!

#48711 From: "David Eastham" <planetgong0@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
planetgong0
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Rob I've added my spreadsheet/method to the file section called trial vodka
its an excel spreadsheet hope its of some use.
Regards
Dave E

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, that was a little confusing.  If your wash is 100% and you produced 14%
alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining.  If your 100% is of
your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.
>
> If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to
defy smooth reasoning.  One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%,
and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable.  From my readings, they suggest head
cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.)  Some
suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of
Ethanol in their wash.  My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I
will be looking at some extreme tail cuts. 
>
> How much water did you use?
> How much sugar did you start with?
> What were your temp cut offs?
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
>
>
>  
> Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those
percentages of the total amount distilled?
>
> Thanks,
>  Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
>
> > 
> >I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is
smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.
> >
> >Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
> >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
> >Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
> >
> >
> > 
> >I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered  (50:50
dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after
the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any
kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down
the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how
smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it
back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
> >Dave E
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

#48712 From: "David Eastham" <planetgong0@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
planetgong0
Send Email Send Email
 
Cheers Ken, I never take off middles above 78.2c, my still maintains this temp
for 4-6 hours till the tails arrive. Thanks for sharing your figures.
Dave E
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "KM Services" <km_services@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> If it is of any help this is how I operate my still is from my files section
> in New Distillers
>
>
>
>
>
> RUNNING A REFLUX STILL.
>
> Here is a basic run down on what I do ..hope it helps.
>
> When you come to running the still cuts are the key to quality and you
> should not be
>
> getting "Lower Grade" alcohol as these are heads and tails and should be
> kept for
>
> redistilling as the good drinkable is ethanol and it here is a guide to
> basically getting
>
> good "heart" to drink. The cuts consist of basically 4 components and if
> making
>
> neutral alcohol, then only the ethanol should be kept (also called the
> middle run or
>
> "hearts") - this requires a reflux still.
>
> 1st cut is the foreshot which is 50mls and is thrown away or used as a fire
> starter and
>
> consists of and yes is potential for some methanol produced in all
> fermentations -
>
> more so in grains and fruit musts, worts or mashes and less in sugar washes
>
> ( Do Not Freak Out See Note Below).
>
> Comment From Harry: Not all washes contain "methanol" per se. Only grain &
> fruitbased
>
> washes have that "potential". But all washes DO contain low boiling point
>
> "contaminants". methanol is but one of many possibilities.
>
> And in these minute quantities it is (if present at all) way less than you
> will find in a
>
> glass of ordinary orange juice, and WAY less than you will find in
> commercial spirits
>
> * There is are some acetone (nail polish remover), ethyl acetates and other
>
> contaminating compounds in the Foreshots and Heads which are the lower
>
> boiling point contaminates and alcohols.
>
> * Acetone 56.5C (134F)
>
> * Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
>
> The fore shots should be taken very slowly (at 1>2 drops per second) by
> cranking up
>
> the water flow to slow it down if running a CM Head as I do.
>
> 2nd cut is the Heads which for you still will be around 100mls to 200mls and
> is kept
>
> and added to the next distil if you want neutral and primarily a fruity
> smelling alcohol
>
> Ethyl acetate
>
> * 77.1C (171F) and within 1Deg C of ethanol (the good stuff)
>
> 3rd cut is the Heats or Middle which depends on how fussy you want to be
> with this
>
> take and slower is better and try and keep the Head at around 78C to 80C for
> this
>
> collect (the ethanol range) and collect say 2 litres then collect in 250ml
> increments
>
> and if you can not control the head temperature or smell changes then
> collect the
>
> balance as tails in a separate container (added to the heads for later
> redistilling)Also
>
> monitor the Abv and do not collect below 70% ABV if going for neutral for
>
> flavouring or if I want really good Vodka I cut at about 90% ABV and collect
> the rest
>
> as Tails
>
> 4th cut is the Tails and there is still plenty of ethanol in the cut but has
> lots of flavour
>
> and smell which if you are using a grain mash for whiskey is collected in
> small
>
> containers and blended to flavour, however, if making white spirits needs to
> be cut out
>
> and the higher temp ones tend to smell of old wet socks!and this contains
> the
>
> following alcohols
>
> * 2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
>
> * 1-Propanol 97C (207F)
>
> * Water 100C (212F)
>
> * Butanol 116C (241F)
>
> * Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
>
> * Furfural 161C (322F)
>
> The heads and the foreshots is the "Hangover Zone" so care with this cut
> makes a
>
> better morning and the tails cut gives the clean good tasting alcohol.
>
> A golden rule is "do not be greedy" because that extra alcohol may well
> contaminate
>
> the rest of the hearts take hence the reason for collecting in smaller
> container when
>
> nearing the tails cut.
>
> Filtering will greatly improve any neutral, but the key is to cut it to
> 50%ABV as
>
> carbon doesn't work at higher ABV's and the carbon must be saturated with
> water not
>
> merely wetted.
>
> I use a Z filter and will rinse for 15 minutes the place my filled filter in
> a bucket of
>
> water (weighed down) over night to completely saturate and then run my grog
> through
>
> at least 3 times then cut to 37% to 40%ABV for drinking as Vodka or
> flavouring?
>
> Aging etc.?
>
> Have Fun with this all engrossing hobby
>
> Cheers Ken Mc
>
>
>
>
>
> cheers  Ken Mc
>
> Moderator :   <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers> Y!
> new_distillers     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/> Y! Distillers
>
>
> Forums Info:  FAQ
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/F.A.Q.>     Policy
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/ADMIN/Group-Policy.html>
> Settings
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/ADMIN/Group_Settings.htm
> l>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Distillers@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Robbie Mabry
> Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012 11:13 a.m.
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those
> percentages of the total amount distilled?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>  Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
>
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is
> smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
> Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
>
>
>
>
>
> I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
> taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50
> dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then
> after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's
> hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm
> feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed
> 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to
> add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body
> else experienced this?
> Dave E
>

#48713 From: "David Eastham" <planetgong0@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:52 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
planetgong0
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Robert just answered the figures in previous post. I kept the temp steady at
78.1-78.2c throughout up to the tails which started at 78.2c and ended at 78.4c
when I stopped the still. I ran take off at about 550ml per hour throughout.
Cheers
Dave E

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, that was a little confusing.  If your wash is 100% and you produced 14%
alcohol, you would have 86% waster and solids remaining.  If your 100% is of
your 14% Ethanol, then your head was 14%, heart was 62%, and your tail was 24%.
>
> If your heart was 62% that would be an extremely deep heart cut that seems to
defy smooth reasoning.  One would reason that a head would be 14%, heart 24%,
and a tail of 62% seems more reasonable.  From my readings, they suggest head
cut off at 180 F (80% abv.) and tail cut off at 200 F (60% to 65% abv.)  Some
suggest a striping run down to 30% abv., but that still leave a quantity of
Ethanol in their wash.  My interest is in spirits and industrial Ethanol, so I
will be looking at some extreme tail cuts. 
>
> How much water did you use?
> How much sugar did you start with?
> What were your temp cut offs?
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...>
> To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Distillers] Too smooth?
>
>
>  
> Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are those
percentages of the total amount distilled?
>
> Thanks,
>  Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
>
> > 
> >I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is
smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.
> >
> >Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
> >To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
> >Subject: [Distillers] Too smooth?
> >
> >
> > 
> >I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered  (50:50
dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then after
the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's hardly any
kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm feeling on going down
the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed 40%. I can't believe how
smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to add some tails to sharpen it
back up again to give it a kick. Has any body else experienced this?
> >Dave E
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

#48714 From: "David Eastham" <planetgong0@...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: Too smooth?
planetgong0
Send Email Send Email
 
Robbie

After initial stripping run I ended up with 9 litres of 38% ethanol. From this I
got 510ml heads, 2.28 litres middles and stopped after 750ml tails collected
(880ml theoretical amount)This adds up to 3.54 litres of 93% spirit, approx 14%
heads, 62% middles and 24% tails.This was from a wash of 27 litres with 6.5kg
sugar. Theoretical alcohol from the initial sg of 1.09 to final sg of 1.0 gives
12.2% alcohol in the initial wash (this equates to 12.2/100x27 = 3.29l of 100%
or 3.54 litres of 93% ethanol)
Cheers
Dave E





--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, Robbie Mabry <robbie46@...> wrote:
>
> Dave, Would you explain what you mean by 14% heads and 24% tails.  Are
> those percentages of the total amount distilled?
>
> Thanks,
>  Robbie     PS No such thing as Too Smooth
>
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 3:06 PM, RLB <last2blast@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > I would agree that you created a near perfect vodka.  For me, my goal is
> > smooth beverage and in most cases a great flavor.  Congratz.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >   ------------------------------
> > *From:* David Eastham <planetgong0@...>
> > *To:* Distillers@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2012 6:17 AM
> > *Subject:* [Distillers] Too smooth?
> >
> >
> > I've just finished a batch of spirits using vodka star turbo yeast. I've
> > taken generous cuts of 14% heads, 24% tails. Then I've filtered (50:50
> > dilution) for the first time. The spirit comes off my still at 93/94%,then
> > after the filtration I've diluted to 40% to make vodka. Trouble is there's
> > hardly any kick when I drink the vodka, though there is the same warm
> > feeling on going down the gullitt. I retested the strength and it is indeed
> > 40%. I can't believe how smooth this product is, and am almost inclined to
> > add some tails to sharpen it back up again to give it a kick. Has any body
> > else experienced this?
> > Dave E
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

#48715 From: "edbar44" <edbar44@...>
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2013 1:36 pm
Subject: Bitters
edbar44
Send Email Send Email
 
I stumbled across this martini recipe and was pleasantly surprised.

http://liquor.com/articles/behind-the-drink-the-martini/

I'm a vodka martini drinker and thought I would try this orange bitter drink
out, I've tried it in both gin and vodka, both purchased and home made and
really like the taste. I was especially impressed that few drops take away and
side taste that may be present in the home distilled product.

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