--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Levi Langershank" <unit_77@h...>
wrote:
> I scanned over the article and got the impression that the 'home
made
> spirits' wasnt being made for the distillers personal
consumption,as much as
> for profit...prohibition era 'bathtub gin' was 'home made'...
> ........cheap ingredients+more output = more profit/inferior
> product.....JMPO...:>)
>                                                           Levi
> (THIS REPLY HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY EDITED)
> >From: "T. Durkin" <durkin.t@c...>
> >Subject: [Distillers] Research on cirrhosis
> >I ran across an interesting research article yesterday.
> >Anyone have any knowledge/comments on the home production process
in this
> >area and how it differs from everywhere else?
> >
> >TD
> =====================

  Firstly, note the phrase……"a possible risk factor is the consumption
of illegally produced home-made spirits" That tells me that the study
was not very scientific.

Secondly, We no live in the dark ages when countries were  isolated
from each other.We now can share ideas and techniques  with friends
throughout the world. The home distiller is no exception. We are a
knowledgeable lot. We work together as one.We produce superior
products which are safe to consume. And…we pretty much know what the
hell we're doing.

  It would be  interesting to know how these folks isolated  Europeans
from the rest of the world to conduct this study.

I say It's scare tactics. If not ….,these people are really, really
misinformed.(AKA dumb)



Pop's  opinion

> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Hey there Suit,

It sounds like you're running a fairly typical pot-still.  With a low
a.b.v. mash, you're machine is leveling out right about the same
temp.
and abv as mine does.  I've run plumb brandy mash at about the same
strength.  It got to 203 F (95 C)before the abv dropped considerably,
and it got too rank to use.  Use your nose and collect in small jars
until you're done.  I think the "never drink anything that went over
190*F" warning refers to a packed column - pot-stills with lower-
strenght mashes are of course a different story.

The plumb brandy was one of the nicest I've made.

Hope this helps!

-Tony

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "suitcase1498" <suitcase1499@a...>
wrote:
>
> Today I ran a low %maybe 6-8% abv corn wash in a pot type column
> 18"high by 2" dia. coming out into a 3/4" X 30" lyne arm connected
to
> a liebic condensor. My temp leveled out at topof column at about
199*F
> and the product was about 55% abv. Does this sound ok ??? Thanks.
Oh
> yea is it safe to drink??? I read on one website to never drink
> anything that went over 190*F Thanks again.
>
> Suitcase

Submitted for your enlightenment and entertainment:
    When I built my first column still, about three years ago, I had
not discovered this forum. I had collected books on small scale
distillation, and been interested in "living history" and "down home"
activities for many years. I knew personally two women that ran small
pot stills in their garage for spending money, (but that is another
story). Finally decided to take the plunge and build a still. I put
together a packed column still of my own design with a stainless pot,
copper column and coil. I thought if I ever needed to explain the
still, I could claim to be making fuel. (hey, it burns in my lawn
mower!) There I was; out in the barn, twenty minutes till midnight;
first run; everything was cooking just right. I couldn't wait to taste
the product.  I ran off the first half pint for safety sake then
collected the next half pint in a sealer. I took a sip.... it was
warm, slightly sweet, but mostly tasteless.  Maybe just the tiniest
taste of yeast. I took another sip...The next thing I know, I'm
sitting flat on my ass on the floor! I  swear on my mothers grave! I
didn't feel a thing. To this day I don't know how I got there! What is
even funnier is that I had been sitting in an aluminum webbing lawn
chair at the time. When I  got around to examining the chair, I
discovered that the front two legs of the lawn chair had broken across
and completely collapsed tipping me out of the chair onto the floor.
That durn lawn chair had just plain bucked me off.
    MORAL: When you first tempt fate by creating the elixir of life,
BUY A STRONGER LAWN CHAIR!!

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rocky_creek1" <rocky_creek@d...>
wrote:
>
> I would be fermenting on the grain, not sparging.

Feed store barley should work fine, but the quality will only be as
good as the quality of the grain. Where I come from (now central
Tennessee) feed store barley is quite dusty and often has some mildew.
If the grain is clean and high quality, There is no need to remove the
husks from the milled grain, just break the kernal coarsely to expose
the starchy endosperm. The husk contains no fermentables, and is
inert. Milling the barley to remove the husk, a process called
"pearling" will waste a considerable quantity of starch and any
malting enzymes present.

My wife bought some grapes on sale at the market and want's me totry
another round of wine. I was told to use 1lb of grapes and 1 lb of
sugar per gallon of water does anyone know if this is correct or not.
I made some a while back and it was to dry. Thanks for any info or
input.

Suitcase

if they want to do some serious study on this, compare the rates of
cirrhosis in new zealand to other similar socio-economic countries who
dont have legal home distilling laws on the books.


popwahtosh wrote:

>--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Levi Langershank" <unit_77@h...>
>wrote:
>
>
>>I scanned over the article and got the impression that the 'home
>>
>>
>made
>
>
>>spirits' wasnt being made for the distillers personal
>>
>>
>consumption,as much as
>
>
>>for profit...prohibition era 'bathtub gin' was 'home made'...
>>........cheap ingredients+more output = more profit/inferior
>>product.....JMPO...:>)
>>                                                          Levi
>>(THIS REPLY HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY EDITED)
>>
>>
>>>From: "T. Durkin" <durkin.t@c...>
>>>Subject: [Distillers] Research on cirrhosis
>>>I ran across an interesting research article yesterday.
>>>Anyone have any knowledge/comments on the home production process
>>>
>>>
>in this
>
>
>>>area and how it differs from everywhere else?
>>>
>>>TD
>>>
>>>
>>=====================
>>
>>
>
> Firstly, note the phrase......"a possible risk factor is the consumption
>of illegally produced home-made spirits" That tells me that the study
>was not very scientific.
>
>Secondly, We no live in the dark ages when countries were  isolated
>from each other.We now can share ideas and techniques  with friends
>throughout the world. The home distiller is no exception. We are a
>knowledgeable lot. We work together as one.We produce superior
>products which are safe to consume. And...we pretty much know what the
>hell we're doing.
>
> It would be  interesting to know how these folks isolated  Europeans
>from the rest of the world to conduct this study.
>
>I say It's scare tactics. If not ....,these people are really, really
>misinformed.(AKA dumb)
>
>
>
>Pop's  opinion
>
>
>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today -
>>
>>
>it's FREE!
>
>
>>http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
> FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
--henry



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just a thought, Suit - but on the packages of Prestige "pot
distiller's yeast", it says "also usable for fruit wines".  I used to
make wine in the old days, I was never very good at it.  I've made
some fruit mashes with the pot distillers yeast that smelled and
tasted better when I racked it off than my wine did.  I'll bet that
if
it was left to clear, and age a bit it would be alright.

It's probably no match for the old ways, with lots of trial and error
and all - but, how much effort do you want to put into it?

-Tony

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "suitcase1498" <suitcase1499@a...>
wrote:
>
> My wife bought some grapes on sale at the market and want's me
totry
> another round of wine. I was told to use 1lb of grapes and 1 lb of
> sugar per gallon of water does anyone know if this is correct or
not.
> I made some a while back and it was to dry. Thanks for any info or
> input.
>
> Suitcase

I remember as a small boy, a favorite uncle of mine worked for the
United States Forest Service in western North Carolina. Much of this
region was settled by Scots and Irish who brought along their distilling
skills and heritage. As you can imagine my uncle wandering through the
Blue Ridge Mountains came upon many stills and knew just about every
moonshiner in several counties. He said there were two kinds of
moonshiners, the ones for whom it was an art as well as a way to
supplement farm income. They built good, safe stills, made real grain
mash and made fine whiskey. Then there was the other type. They built
stills out of any old sort of crap barrels they could come across, used
truck radiators (lead solder) for condensers and made hurry up mashes
from a little corn and much sugar. Worse than mere thieves, they had no
concern for the welfare of the customers. They were often on the run not
only from the law, but from customers as well. So, this is nothing new,
thieves and charlatans give the craft as bad name. My old uncle would be
proud to know that there are devoted amateur artisans carrying on the craft.

Ed




Henry Stamp wrote:

> if they want to do some serious study on this, compare the rates of
> cirrhosis in new zealand to other similar socio-economic countries who
> dont have legal home distilling laws on the books.
>
>

Suit...check this out... http://tinyurl.com/7xl4n
...to get a 'sweet' you need to 'stick' the ferment before the sugar is gone
OR add sugar to the final product....good luck...:>)
                                                           Levi

(THIS REPLY HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY EDITED)
>From: "suitcase1498" <suitcase1499@...>
>Subject: [Distillers] Off subject (Wine Making)
>My wife bought some grapes on sale at the market and want's me totry
>another round of wine. I was told to use 1lb of grapes and 1 lb of
>sugar per gallon of water does anyone know if this is correct or not.
>I made some a while back and it was to dry. Thanks for any info or
>input.
>
>Suitcase

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

At about 15% the boiling temp rises rapidly to about 200F at about 10%and slowly
rises to205F. when all the alcohol is gone the temp jumps to212F (water). these
figure arent exact but close. this is why a thumper keg was used in all grain
mash. like a doubler. double run this to get more middle and less tails.

suitcase1498 <suitcase1499@...> wrote:
Today I ran a low %maybe 6-8% abv corn wash in a pot type column
18"high by 2" dia. coming out into a 3/4" X 30" lyne arm connected to
a liebic condensor. My temp leveled out at topof column at about 199*F
and the product was about 55% abv. Does this sound ok ??? Thanks. Oh
yea is it safe to drink??? I read on one website to never drink
anything that went over 190*F Thanks again.

Suitcase





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Moonshine is legal in AUS. but you guys are going to get busted for smuggling
oak chips.! BE careful out there.! hehehe go figure.

Rick Strang <rickstrang@...> wrote:sounds great but how about the
import (customs) problems spraying etc I know that here in Aus they can be
fairly tough
Rick
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: suitcase1499@...
   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:27 PM
   Subject: Re: [Distillers] Consumable supplier



   In a message dated 3/30/2005 7:24:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
   theooz@... writes:

   Oak Chips 1kg: $22.00 (French or American oak available)




   I know we are not suppose to offer anything for sale on here but I live in
   South East US and oak chips are cheap so if anyone want's some contact me
   directly I'll let you have them at cost plus shipping. About $5.00 a lb. I
think I'd
   have to check to be sure.

   Suitcase


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carbon and methanol (snore) have had more than their share of posts
in this newsgroup. Esters, on the other hand, are a subject that gets
far less attention than it should. I feel there is too much focus on
ethanol and water, and not the properties of the impurities we are
really trying to remove. My still already removes more than enough
water - I have to add water back before I use it's output so clearly
removing water is not my main objective. Everything seems to hinge on
the assumption that if your still is good at separating alcohol and
water then it must be good at removing everything else. This
assumption is loose at best and ignores the fact that with a little
encouragement some of the worst impurities will remove themselves.

Esters are flavour compounds responsible for many of the
characteristic tastes we know very well:

Propyl acetate (Pears)
Octyl acetate (Oranges)
Isoamyl acetate (Banana)
Ethyl butyrate (Pineapple)
Butyl acetate (Apple)
Methyl trans-cinnamate (Strawberry)
Ethyl cinnamate(Cinnamon)

(See http://www.leffingwell.com/esters.htm. There are many others and
a web search will turn up many more if you're interested.)

Esters are the product of a reaction between an organic acid and an
alcohol. Read the back of a wine bottle you'll see wine described as
tasting of all sorts of different fruit (except grapes, of course
because any fool can do that). Yeast, by its very nature, produces a
range of organic acids and a range of alcohols during the
fermentation process. These combine to form a range of esters
responsible (along with other chemicals) for the flavours in wine
that aren't in the original grape juice. This is where the interests
of a winemaker differ from someone trying to make clean neutral
spirits - winemakers see ester formation as desirable. Yeast makers
even advertise their yeasts on how good they are at producing damn
esters.

The problem with esters is that a little goes such a long way. Most
have detection thresholds measured in parts per billion (ppb). Ethyl
butyrate – the fruity pineapple ester listed above - has an odour
detection threshold in water of 1ppb. As a comparison, ethanol in air
has an odour detection threshold of about 50 parts per million (ppm).
In other words, it's odour is 50,000 times more powerful than
ethanol. For those of you obsessed by percentages, your distillate
could be 99.9999999% ethyl butyrate free and you'd still be able to
smell the damn stuff. Great if that's what you want, bad if you don't.

The ester of the most relevance to home distilling is ethyl acetate.
Ethanol oxidises to form acetic acid. Acetic acid and ethanol react
to form ethyl acetate. It's no real surprise that you are going to
end up with some of this stuff in your brew - yeast puts it there.
The good news is its odour detection level is a relatively high for
an ester at 5000 ppb (or 0.0005%); the bad news is it has a nasty
solvent-like smell you're probably already familiar with. And there's
more bad news…

By itself, it boils at 77 degrees, which is pretty close to the
boiling point of ethanol. It forms azeotropes with both ethanol and
water, and another when all three of them are mixed together
(although all at mixture ratios you are never likely to see). I have
heard many claims that ethyl acetate can be effectively removed by a
still. It's more correct to say that using a still, a good operator
can separate the ethanol that contains ethyl acetate (the heads, etc)
from the ethanol that doesn't. To me this is not "effective" as the
heads contain far more ethanol than anything else and I make ethanol
to drink and not tip down the drain. As I said, stills are great for
separating alcohol from water, but that doesn't make them the best
tool for every job. Removing ester-related flavours with a still has
all the finesse of opening walnuts with a sledgehammer. The secret is
knowing your enemy:

Food is acidic. Just about everything we eat has a pH less than 7
(See  http://www.phsciences.com/about_ph/ph_foods.asp). Acid inhibits
bacteria growth and is the environment in which esters are formed.
The chemical reaction that produces esters, however, can be reversed –
  when taken out of an acidic environment esters hydrolise back into
the acid and alcohol from which they were originally formed. This is
why food acids are so often added to preserved food – it helps
preserve the flavour as well as preventing spoilage.

Ethyl acetate is formed during fermentation. After distillation it's
no longer in and acidic environment and starts to decompose back to
ethanol and acetic acid. Acetic acid gives vinegar its characteristic
taste and although pungent, it's far less detectable than ethyl
acetate – not great, but less bad. As decompostion produces an acid
it tends to slow the rate of further decomposition, but eventually it
does happen. If you have the time, people have been getting good
results from sticking alcohol in barrels and waiting a decade.

If you don't have the time then don't worry lots of things can be
used to speed up the process: agitation/aeration, light (called
photodecomposition) do this. The resulting acetic acid has a boiling
point of 118 degrees C so it's much easier than ethyl acetate to
separate from ethanol in a subsequent distillation. If you add some
mild alkali (sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate or calcium
carbonate) into the mix you can speed up the decomposition time and
also precipitate out the acetic acid. By adding a couple of teaspoons
of sodium bicarb to your nastiest smelling heads and aerating them
with an aquarium pump and air-stone for a week you will end up with
something that smells OK. Not quite good enough to drink, but more
than good enough to redistil.

This is the real way to solve the ethyl acetate problem – not by
pouring your (mostly ethanol) heads down the drain. You get to
recover all the ethanol that the ethyl acetate had spoiled and (the
really elegant part) some of the ethyl acetate is actually turned
back into ethanol. The point to remember is the same process will
reduce all ester-related flavours, and not just ethyl acetate,
including the ones that exist in immeasurable, but still detectable
quantities. You don't even need to know what esters they are!! They
all breakdown into different components, which you may not
particularly want either but will all have less impact on overall
flavour than the original ester.

Once I learned this I changed my process to double distil everything.
After the first distillation I throw in some sodium carbonate and
aerate for a week before distilling again. I don't separate the heads
from the second distillation because there's nothing to separate and
the result doesn't need carbon filtration. More importantly, nothing
I boil off ever goes down the drain - not a single drop. My end-to-
end efficiency from sugar to drinkable spirit is 90% with the cost of
consumables and wastage very low. Plenty depends on your ingredients,
equipment and process, but you get the basic idea.

Cheers,
DP

Suit

No expert here but I am learning as I go.  I have a secondary ferment
going right now.  But I bought a ready to go kit from the local wine
shop.

My reading tells me that the wild yeast that would naturally inhabit
the air are not what you want.

There is a product that kills the yeast with a sulfide gas for a 24
hour period and then use winemaker's yeast, ec1118 being one, to
ferment the fruit.

I have tried it over the years and have never made anything fit to
drink.

That's about the receipe that I have used in the past. 1 sugar, 1
fruit and 1 water.  Really, whatever it takes to get the sg to the
same place we are with the corn mash. -- 1.09




But this one, so far, tastes pretty good.

The wine concentrate in the kit has been cured of the offending yeast.

Not a cheep route though.  The concentrate and powder packets were
about 50 bucks.

But u don't have to buy any sugar either.  It makes about 6 gallons.




cary r




--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "suitcase1498" <suitcase1499@a...>
wrote:
>
> My wife bought some grapes on sale at the market and want's me totry
> another round of wine. I was told to use 1lb of grapes and 1 lb of
> sugar per gallon of water does anyone know if this is correct or
not.
> I made some a while back and it was to dry. Thanks for any info or
> input.
>
> Suitcase

thanks dp

I learned alot.

I only vaguely remember esters from organic chemistry.  And that was
20 years ago.

I printed it out and put it in my reference file.


cary r




--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dropped_pie" <dropped_pie@y...>
wrote:
>
> Carbon and methanol (snore) have had more than their share of
posts
> in this newsgroup. Esters, on the other hand, are a subject that
gets
> far less attention than it should. I feel there is too much focus
on
> ethanol and water, and not the properties of the impurities we are
> really trying to remove. My still already removes more than enough
> water - I have to add water back before I use it's output so
clearly
> removing water is not my main objective. Everything seems to hinge
on
> the assumption that if your still is good at separating alcohol
and
> water then it must be good at removing everything else. This
> assumption is loose at best and ignores the fact that with a
little
> encouragement some of the worst impurities will remove themselves.
>
> Esters are flavour compounds responsible for many of the
> characteristic tastes we know very well:
>
> Propyl acetate (Pears)
> Octyl acetate (Oranges)
> Isoamyl acetate (Banana)
> Ethyl butyrate (Pineapple)
> Butyl acetate (Apple)
> Methyl trans-cinnamate (Strawberry)
> Ethyl cinnamate(Cinnamon)
>
> (See http://www.leffingwell.com/esters.htm. There are many others
and
> a web search will turn up many more if you're interested.)
>
> Esters are the product of a reaction between an organic acid and
an
> alcohol. Read the back of a wine bottle you'll see wine described
as
> tasting of all sorts of different fruit (except grapes, of course
> because any fool can do that). Yeast, by its very nature, produces
a
> range of organic acids and a range of alcohols during the
> fermentation process. These combine to form a range of esters
> responsible (along with other chemicals) for the flavours in wine
> that aren't in the original grape juice. This is where the
interests
> of a winemaker differ from someone trying to make clean neutral
> spirits - winemakers see ester formation as desirable. Yeast
makers
> even advertise their yeasts on how good they are at producing damn
> esters.
>
> The problem with esters is that a little goes such a long way.
Most
> have detection thresholds measured in parts per billion (ppb).
Ethyl
> butyrate – the fruity pineapple ester listed above - has an odour
> detection threshold in water of 1ppb. As a comparison, ethanol in
air
> has an odour detection threshold of about 50 parts per million
(ppm).
> In other words, it's odour is 50,000 times more powerful than
> ethanol. For those of you obsessed by percentages, your distillate
> could be 99.9999999% ethyl butyrate free and you'd still be able
to
> smell the damn stuff. Great if that's what you want, bad if you
don't.
>
> The ester of the most relevance to home distilling is ethyl
acetate.
> Ethanol oxidises to form acetic acid. Acetic acid and ethanol
react
> to form ethyl acetate. It's no real surprise that you are going to
> end up with some of this stuff in your brew - yeast puts it there.
> The good news is its odour detection level is a relatively high
for
> an ester at 5000 ppb (or 0.0005%); the bad news is it has a nasty
> solvent-like smell you're probably already familiar with. And
there's
> more bad news…
>
> By itself, it boils at 77 degrees, which is pretty close to the
> boiling point of ethanol. It forms azeotropes with both ethanol
and
> water, and another when all three of them are mixed together
> (although all at mixture ratios you are never likely to see). I
have
> heard many claims that ethyl acetate can be effectively removed by
a
> still. It's more correct to say that using a still, a good
operator
> can separate the ethanol that contains ethyl acetate (the heads,
etc)
> from the ethanol that doesn't. To me this is not "effective" as
the
> heads contain far more ethanol than anything else and I make
ethanol
> to drink and not tip down the drain. As I said, stills are great
for
> separating alcohol from water, but that doesn't make them the best
> tool for every job. Removing ester-related flavours with a still
has
> all the finesse of opening walnuts with a sledgehammer. The secret
is
> knowing your enemy:
>
> Food is acidic. Just about everything we eat has a pH less than 7
> (See  http://www.phsciences.com/about_ph/ph_foods.asp). Acid
inhibits
> bacteria growth and is the environment in which esters are formed.
> The chemical reaction that produces esters, however, can be
reversed –
>  when taken out of an acidic environment esters hydrolise back
into
> the acid and alcohol from which they were originally formed. This
is
> why food acids are so often added to preserved food – it helps
> preserve the flavour as well as preventing spoilage.
>
> Ethyl acetate is formed during fermentation. After distillation
it's
> no longer in and acidic environment and starts to decompose back
to
> ethanol and acetic acid. Acetic acid gives vinegar its
characteristic
> taste and although pungent, it's far less detectable than ethyl
> acetate – not great, but less bad. As decompostion produces an
acid
> it tends to slow the rate of further decomposition, but eventually
it
> does happen. If you have the time, people have been getting good
> results from sticking alcohol in barrels and waiting a decade.
>
> If you don't have the time then don't worry lots of things can be
> used to speed up the process: agitation/aeration, light (called
> photodecomposition) do this. The resulting acetic acid has a
boiling
> point of 118 degrees C so it's much easier than ethyl acetate to
> separate from ethanol in a subsequent distillation. If you add
some
> mild alkali (sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate or calcium
> carbonate) into the mix you can speed up the decomposition time
and
> also precipitate out the acetic acid. By adding a couple of
teaspoons
> of sodium bicarb to your nastiest smelling heads and aerating them
> with an aquarium pump and air-stone for a week you will end up
with
> something that smells OK. Not quite good enough to drink, but more
> than good enough to redistil.
>
> This is the real way to solve the ethyl acetate problem – not by
> pouring your (mostly ethanol) heads down the drain. You get to
> recover all the ethanol that the ethyl acetate had spoiled and
(the
> really elegant part) some of the ethyl acetate is actually turned
> back into ethanol. The point to remember is the same process will
> reduce all ester-related flavours, and not just ethyl acetate,
> including the ones that exist in immeasurable, but still
detectable
> quantities. You don't even need to know what esters they are!!
They
> all breakdown into different components, which you may not
> particularly want either but will all have less impact on overall
> flavour than the original ester.
>
> Once I learned this I changed my process to double distil
everything.
> After the first distillation I throw in some sodium carbonate and
> aerate for a week before distilling again. I don't separate the
heads
> from the second distillation because there's nothing to separate
and
> the result doesn't need carbon filtration. More importantly,
nothing
> I boil off ever goes down the drain - not a single drop. My end-to-
> end efficiency from sugar to drinkable spirit is 90% with the cost
of
> consumables and wastage very low. Plenty depends on your
ingredients,
> equipment and process, but you get the basic idea.
>
> Cheers,
> DP

3lb of grapes and 3lb of sugar. what yeast? what kind of grapes? some table
grapes dont make good wine I use the old #5 recipe-  5 gal grapes 5lb sugar 5
gal spring water 5 days strain out hulls 5 weeks bottle.no added yeast.the acid
or sugar may not be rite in store grapes . try it anyway and let us know. If it
finishes too dry add potassium sorbate then tweak with sugar till you get it
like you want it.

suitcase1498 <suitcase1499@...> wrote:
My wife bought some grapes on sale at the market and want's me totry
another round of wine. I was told to use 1lb of grapes and 1 lb of
sugar per gallon of water does anyone know if this is correct or not.
I made some a while back and it was to dry. Thanks for any info or
input.

Suitcase





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--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "suitcase1498" <suitcase1499@a...>
wrote:
>
> Today I ran a low %maybe 6-8% abv corn wash in a pot type column
> 18"high by 2" dia. coming out into a 3/4" X 30" lyne arm connected to
> a liebic condensor. My temp leveled out at topof column at about
199*F
> and the product was about 55% abv. Does this sound ok ??? Thanks. Oh
> yea is it safe to drink??? I read on one website to never drink
> anything that went over 190*F Thanks again.
>
> Suitcase
================================================

Hey there Suit,
I collect the run until the head reaches 200 degrees. It's about 60%.
Now I'm only about 50' above sea level, I don't know if that would
effect vapor temp (I don't think it would, then again if the bp is
lower, it stands to reason that %/vapor temp would be lower also). I
think I should pass this off to the more knowledable of the group, but
I hope this helps.
We have a saying in sailboat racing; "Don't tell me what you think,
Tell me what you know"
Tip one, Morgan

Everyone is talking oak these days. I think after reading so much about "oaking"
and "aging" I am ripe enough to try. However, I would like to gather some
branches of the oak tree and make chips out of that stock instead of purchasing
it. This way I know it is oak, not maple AND I know it was not treated, AND it
is organic :-)

I would like to ask someone who knows this subject to post a few pictures of
suitable oak trees and its leaves in the photos or files section, please. This
way I will be able to collect some of the branches, dry, cut and cook them.

My next extrapolation is: "Why oak?" It is historical that oak was the strongest
and most available tree to make barrels in old days. I wonder, if I use other
type of wood, perhaps I will get a better flavor? Maple? Birch? Sandal?
Mahogany? :-)




Alex_{*L*}_(a.k.a. BOKAKOB)
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob

























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Be Careful trying odd woods some have some nasty if not sickening resins!  
After 2 thousand + years someone may be using  WHITE OAK because it is BEST.
Check the Inet and study some before trying things Branches are not really best
for aging . Trunk cut are probly BEST. White oak has rough  grayish bark large
leaves and large nuts.

"Alex _{*L*}_ (a.k.a. BOKAKOB)" <bokakob@...> wrote:Everyone is talking
oak these days. I think after reading so much about "oaking" and "aging" I am
ripe enough to try. However, I would like to gather some branches of the oak
tree and make chips out of that stock instead of purchasing it. This way I know
it is oak, not maple AND I know it was not treated, AND it is organic :-)

I would like to ask someone who knows this subject to post a few pictures of
suitable oak trees and its leaves in the photos or files section, please. This
way I will be able to collect some of the branches, dry, cut and cook them.

My next extrapolation is: "Why oak?" It is historical that oak was the strongest
and most available tree to make barrels in old days. I wonder, if I use other
type of wood, perhaps I will get a better flavor? Maple? Birch? Sandal?
Mahogany? :-)




Alex_{*L*}_(a.k.a. BOKAKOB)
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob

























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In a message dated 3/31/2005 9:43:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
blackledge_02@... writes:

will get a better flavor? Maple? Birch? Sandal? Mahogany? :-)




Well I know Jack Daniels use's maple charcoal to filter their's with. I have
tried Hickory here where I'm from we use it to Bar-B-Que with but it aint
worth shit for whiskey. Now someone else may say different. JMHO. In all I've
personally tried white oak is best. But I'm gonna try sugar maple it makes great
syrup so it make give whiskey a good flavor.

Suitcase


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/31/2005 7:53:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rhodeseng@... writes:

But this one, so far, tastes pretty good.

The wine concentrate in the kit has been cured of the offending yeast.

Not a cheep route though.  The concentrate and powder packets were
about 50 bucks.

But u don't have to buy any sugar either.  It makes about 6 gallons.



Thanks for the info, I used a yeast I bought a a homebrew shop made for wine
don't remember the name but I used 2 packs cause it said 1 pack was good for 5
gallons and I made about 8. Used 8 lbs grapes 8 lbs sugar 1/2 gal. pure grape
juice 7.5 gal. water SG 1.090. Put in in about 8:00pm and its already
bubbling, And it's a little after 10:00 pm here.

Suitcase


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, suitcase1499@a... wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info, I used a yeast I bought a a homebrew shop made
> for wine don't remember the name but I used 2 packs cause it said 1
> pack was good for 5 gallons and I made about 8. Used 8 lbs grapes 8
> lbs sugar 1/2 gal. pure grape juice 7.5 gal. water SG 1.090. Put in
> in about 8:00pm and its already bubbling, And it's a little after
> 10:00 pm here.
>
> Suitcase
===========================
Suitcase, keep us up to date how it works out. Curious to see how it
will work out. How did you prep the grapes?

BR

I was thinking on this supply of American white oak as my local home brew shop
sells it @ $5.50 for 100gms and this is a little steep I think so where to get a
better cheaper supply and I thought who better than the local keg maker I went
and saw them and guess what good shavings  not sawdust @ $2.50 per kilo very
good price I think so I said to this very nice lady that I would like to have a
kilo she looked around the shop and found that all she had was what  was in a
bucket under one of the machines it being Friday and all that will do I said how
much oh don't worry that's all right I just weighed them 492grams at the grand
old price of naught must be my good looks.
Regards Rick.
P.S. does any one else have the same evaporation problems I do .
I was filtering 2lt to bottles yesterday and only finished up with 2 / 700ml
bottles I managed to loose 600mls had a slight throbbing behind the eyes this
morning though.
Regards Rick.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: donald holcombe
   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:39 AM
   Subject: Re: [Distillers] Consumable supplier


   Moonshine is legal in AUS. but you guys are going to get busted for smuggling
oak chips.! BE careful out there.! hehehe go figure.

   Rick Strang <rickstrang@...> wrote:sounds great but how about the
import (customs) problems spraying etc I know that here in Aus they can be
fairly tough
   Rick
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: suitcase1499@...
     To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 12:27 PM
     Subject: Re: [Distillers] Consumable supplier



     In a message dated 3/30/2005 7:24:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
     theooz@... writes:

     Oak Chips 1kg: $22.00 (French or American oak available)




     I know we are not suppose to offer anything for sale on here but I live in
     South East US and oak chips are cheap so if anyone want's some contact me
     directly I'll let you have them at cost plus shipping. About $5.00 a lb. I
think I'd
     have to check to be sure.

     Suitcase


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Oh begorrah (Where to begin)
It's really easy to make bad wine.  It's not too hard to make a passable
wine from a kit, but, really good wine from grapes takes more than guess
work and a recipe.
First of all, what kind of grapes??????  Are they table grapes or wine
grapes.  It's way too fucking early for any N. American grape to be
ripe.  Where are you?
Now that you know what kind of grapes they are you need to determine the
kind of product you are aiming for.
Y'all need to know the specific gravity, ph and titratable acids.  In
addition, some knowledge of yeasts and what flavors they tend to draw out
of the grapes is important.  Then there are nutrients (always a good
idea).  I tend to use Goferm.
For a big red a starting s.g. of 1.075-1.1 is the range.  It gets more
dangerous at the upper end.  ph should be about 3.52 and TA of 6.5 or so.
In a pinch use the old EC1118 for yeast and let it rip.
Grapes at the market,..........  I just don't know.
At 02:12 PM 3/31/05, you wrote:


>My wife bought some grapes on sale at the market and want's me totry
>another round of wine. I was told to use 1lb of grapes and 1 lb of
>sugar per gallon of water does anyone know if this is correct or not.
>I made some a while back and it was to dry. Thanks for any info or
>input.
>
>Suitcase
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Distillers list archives : http://archive.nnytech.net/
>  FAQ and other information at http://homedistiller.org
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Derek Hamlet
Victoria, B.C.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How much volume do you loose on second distil.
Example on my only try (1st run) I single distilled for 3lt @ 65% from 20lt
which when cut gave me 5.25lt.
If I 2nd distilled I would have to make another smaller still I think.
Rick.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dropped_pie
   To: Distillers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:45 AM
   Subject: [Distillers] Esters



   Carbon and methanol (snore) have had more than their share of posts
   in this newsgroup. Esters, on the other hand, are a subject that gets
   far less attention than it should. I feel there is too much focus on
   ethanol and water, and not the properties of the impurities we are
   really trying to remove. My still already removes more than enough
   water - I have to add water back before I use it's output so clearly
   removing water is not my main objective. Everything seems to hinge on
   the assumption that if your still is good at separating alcohol and
   water then it must be good at removing everything else. This
   assumption is loose at best and ignores the fact that with a little
   encouragement some of the worst impurities will remove themselves.

   Esters are flavour compounds responsible for many of the
   characteristic tastes we know very well:

   Propyl acetate (Pears)
   Octyl acetate (Oranges)
   Isoamyl acetate (Banana)
   Ethyl butyrate (Pineapple)
   Butyl acetate (Apple)
   Methyl trans-cinnamate (Strawberry)
   Ethyl cinnamate(Cinnamon)

   (See http://www.leffingwell.com/esters.htm. There are many others and
   a web search will turn up many more if you're interested.)

   Esters are the product of a reaction between an organic acid and an
   alcohol. Read the back of a wine bottle you'll see wine described as
   tasting of all sorts of different fruit (except grapes, of course
   because any fool can do that). Yeast, by its very nature, produces a
   range of organic acids and a range of alcohols during the
   fermentation process. These combine to form a range of esters
   responsible (along with other chemicals) for the flavours in wine
   that aren't in the original grape juice. This is where the interests
   of a winemaker differ from someone trying to make clean neutral
   spirits - winemakers see ester formation as desirable. Yeast makers
   even advertise their yeasts on how good they are at producing damn
   esters.

   The problem with esters is that a little goes such a long way. Most
   have detection thresholds measured in parts per billion (ppb). Ethyl
   butyrate - the fruity pineapple ester listed above - has an odour
   detection threshold in water of 1ppb. As a comparison, ethanol in air
   has an odour detection threshold of about 50 parts per million (ppm).
   In other words, it's odour is 50,000 times more powerful than
   ethanol. For those of you obsessed by percentages, your distillate
   could be 99.9999999% ethyl butyrate free and you'd still be able to
   smell the damn stuff. Great if that's what you want, bad if you don't.

   The ester of the most relevance to home distilling is ethyl acetate.
   Ethanol oxidises to form acetic acid. Acetic acid and ethanol react
   to form ethyl acetate. It's no real surprise that you are going to
   end up with some of this stuff in your brew - yeast puts it there.
   The good news is its odour detection level is a relatively high for
   an ester at 5000 ppb (or 0.0005%); the bad news is it has a nasty
   solvent-like smell you're probably already familiar with. And there's
   more bad news.

   By itself, it boils at 77 degrees, which is pretty close to the
   boiling point of ethanol. It forms azeotropes with both ethanol and
   water, and another when all three of them are mixed together
   (although all at mixture ratios you are never likely to see). I have
   heard many claims that ethyl acetate can be effectively removed by a
   still. It's more correct to say that using a still, a good operator
   can separate the ethanol that contains ethyl acetate (the heads, etc)
   from the ethanol that doesn't. To me this is not "effective" as the
   heads contain far more ethanol than anything else and I make ethanol
   to drink and not tip down the drain. As I said, stills are great for
   separating alcohol from water, but that doesn't make them the best
   tool for every job. Removing ester-related flavours with a still has
   all the finesse of opening walnuts with a sledgehammer. The secret is
   knowing your enemy:

   Food is acidic. Just about everything we eat has a pH less than 7
   (See  http://www.phsciences.com/about_ph/ph_foods.asp). Acid inhibits
   bacteria growth and is the environment in which esters are formed.
   The chemical reaction that produces esters, however, can be reversed -
   when taken out of an acidic environment esters hydrolise back into
   the acid and alcohol from which they were originally formed. This is
   why food acids are so often added to preserved food - it helps
   preserve the flavour as well as preventing spoilage.

   Ethyl acetate is formed during fermentation. After distillation it's
   no longer in and acidic environment and starts to decompose back to
   ethanol and acetic acid. Acetic acid gives vinegar its characteristic
   taste and although pungent, it's far less detectable than ethyl
   acetate - not great, but less bad. As decompostion produces an acid
   it tends to slow the rate of further decomposition, but eventually it
   does happen. If you have the time, people have been getting good
   results from sticking alcohol in barrels and waiting a decade.

   If you don't have the time then don't worry lots of things can be
   used to speed up the process: agitation/aeration, light (called
   photodecomposition) do this. The resulting acetic acid has a boiling
   point of 118 degrees C so it's much easier than ethyl acetate to
   separate from ethanol in a subsequent distillation. If you add some
   mild alkali (sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate or calcium
   carbonate) into the mix you can speed up the decomposition time and
   also precipitate out the acetic acid. By adding a couple of teaspoons
   of sodium bicarb to your nastiest smelling heads and aerating them
   with an aquarium pump and air-stone for a week you will end up with
   something that smells OK. Not quite good enough to drink, but more
   than good enough to redistil.

   This is the real way to solve the ethyl acetate problem - not by
   pouring your (mostly ethanol) heads down the drain. You get to
   recover all the ethanol that the ethyl acetate had spoiled and (the
   really elegant part) some of the ethyl acetate is actually turned
   back into ethanol. The point to remember is the same process will
   reduce all ester-related flavours, and not just ethyl acetate,
   including the ones that exist in immeasurable, but still detectable
   quantities. You don't even need to know what esters they are!! They
   all breakdown into different components, which you may not
   particularly want either but will all have less impact on overall
   flavour than the original ester.

   Once I learned this I changed my process to double distil everything.
   After the first distillation I throw in some sodium carbonate and
   aerate for a week before distilling again. I don't separate the heads
   from the second distillation because there's nothing to separate and
   the result doesn't need carbon filtration. More importantly, nothing
   I boil off ever goes down the drain - not a single drop. My end-to-
   end efficiency from sugar to drinkable spirit is 90% with the cost of
   consumables and wastage very low. Plenty depends on your ingredients,
   equipment and process, but you get the basic idea.

   Cheers,
   DP






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In a message dated 3/31/2005 11:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
derekhamlet@... writes:

It's way too fucking early for any N. American grape to be
Ripe.  Where are you?



Pardon me for bothering you, I didn't realize it took a magician to make wine
while an idiot could make whine.

Suitcase


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/31/2005 11:27:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rickstrang@... writes:

I was thinking on this supply of American white oak as my local home brew
shop sells it @ $5.50 for 100gms


I bought some today from a local homebrew shop American White Oak Chips
lightly toasted $5.95 per pound. I can char them more if I want but to me it's
cheap enough considering how far they will go.

Suitcase


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 3/31/2005 10:31:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bradr36@... writes:

Suitcase, keep us up to date how it works out. Curious to see how it
will work out. How did you prep the grapes?

BR



I used a SS potato masher my wife uses in the kitchen to mash them as I know
if the skin isn't broken they don't work. As for now it seems to be working
off as normal bubbling good after 4 hours.

Suitcase


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/1/2005 12:07:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
suitcase1499@... writes:

In a message dated 3/31/2005 11:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
derekhamlet@... writes:

It's way too fucking early for any N. American grape to be
Ripe.  Where are you?



Pardon me for bothering you, I didn't realize it took a magician to make wine
While an idiot could make whine.

Suitcase



Oh yea Bananas don't grow here neither but guess what we can buy em.

Suitcase


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sugar crystals will only form in a supersaturated solution - at room
temp. this means more than 2 cups sugar per 1 cup of water. you can add
gum arabic (or other food grade gum) to prevent crystallization.
wal
--- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "popwahtosh" <popwahtosh@y...> wrote:
>
>
>
>  Can anyone tell me if simple syrup will still crystallize after
being
> mixed with  40%  alcohol? If so,I've heard that boiling the sugar
water
> may prevent this from happening under any circumstances. True or
not???
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pop

Well Suit, I'll give you what little I know regarding the subject.  There is a
vast difference between table grapes and wine making grapes. (Although we know
almost anything can be fermented).  I've been making wine for about 20 yrs now. 
Usually purchase grapes from Cali, as they get more sun, ergo, higher sugar
content.  I allow the wild yeast to do its job.  No kits, no added sugar and
*gasp* no hydrometer readings.  Then again, I'm doing it the old fashioned way,
an art thats almost dead now.  Its much easier to just buy the juice and add
yeast these days.  If you have any Q's I may be able to answer, feel free to
mail me directly.

Regards,

KP

suitcase1499@... wrote:

In a message dated 4/1/2005 12:07:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
suitcase1499@... writes:

In a message dated 3/31/2005 11:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
derekhamlet@... writes:

It's way too fucking early for any N. American grape to be
Ripe.  Where are you?



Pardon me for bothering you, I didn't realize it took a magician to make wine
While an idiot could make whine.

Suitcase



Oh yea Bananas don't grow here neither but guess what we can buy em.

Suitcase


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