>
>
>NAMASTE ........   OM .........  beloved  sisters  and  brothers  ,
>friends ,   i  am  a   really  dedicated     seeker &  server  ,   living
>a   full  time  spiritual  life ,    in   devotion  and  faith ......... if
>  you  know   about  any  bikkhus /  monks  orders  ,  temples ,
>monasteries   ................  in  INDIA  or  elsewhere  in  ASIA
>-------------  who  are  open  and   accept  people   from  other
>countries ------------  please  let  me  know  as  soon  as   possible
>....... for  some  reasons  ,   i    can  not   / will  not  use   the
>internet   except  for   very  short  time ,  rarely  ......   to    read
>your   messages ..............  so  i  appreciate  a   lot   your   support
>please   help   me   with  this .............  also  any  information
>about  your  spiritual  path ........... like  what  are  the   very  exact
>   differences   and   similarities  between  theravada ,  mahayana ,
>tibetan  traditions  and  which  has  more  devotional  aspects
>..........................................................................
>  eternal  blessings  &  thanx .......................  please  contact  me
>  directly  at   :   freeforever777@... ,  valentinpeace@...
>........................................
>



>
>
>NAMASTE ........   OM .........  beloved  sisters  and  brothers  ,
>friends ,   i  am  a   really  dedicated     seeker &  server  ,   living
>a   full  time  spiritual  life ,    in   devotion  and  faith ......... if
>  you  know   about  any  bikkhus /  monks  orders  ,  temples ,
>monasteries   ................  in  INDIA  or  elsewhere  in  ASIA
>-------------  who  are  open  and   accept  people   from  other
>countries ------------  please  let  me  know  as  soon  as   possible
>....... for  some  reasons  ,   i    can  not   / will  not  use   the
>internet   except  for   very  short  time ,  rarely  ......   to    read
>your   messages ..............  so  i  appreciate  a   lot   your   support
>please   help   me   with  this .............  also  any  information
>about  your  spiritual  path ........... like  what  are  the   very  exact
>   differences   and   similarities  between  theravada ,  mahayana ,
>tibetan  traditions  and  which  has  more  devotional  aspects
>..........................................................................
>  eternal  blessings  &  thanx .......................  please  contact  me
>  directly  at   :   freeforever777@... ,  valentinpeace@...
>........................................
>



>
>
>NAMASTE ........   OM .........  beloved  sisters  and  brothers  ,
>friends ,   i  am  a   really  dedicated     seeker &  server  ,   living
>a   full  time  spiritual  life ,    in   devotion  and  faith ......... if
>  you  know   about  any  bikkhus /  monks  orders  ,  temples ,
>monasteries   ................  in  INDIA  or  elsewhere  in  ASIA
>-------------  who  are  open  and   accept  people   from  other
>countries ------------  please  let  me  know  as  soon  as   possible
>....... for  some  reasons  ,   i    can  not   / will  not  use   the
>internet   except  for   very  short  time ,  rarely  ......   to    read
>your   messages ..............  so  i  appreciate  a   lot   your   support
>please   help   me   with  this .............  also  any  information
>about  your  spiritual  path ........... like  what  are  the   very  exact
>   differences   and   similarities  between  theravada ,  mahayana ,
>tibetan  traditions  and  which  has  more  devotional  aspects
>..........................................................................
>  eternal  blessings  &  thanx .......................  please  contact  me
>  directly  at   :   freeforever777@... ,  valentinpeace@...
>........................................
>



>
>
>NAMASTE ........   OM .........  beloved  sisters  and  brothers  ,
>friends ,   i  am  a   really  dedicated     seeker &  server  ,   living
>a   full  time  spiritual  life ,    in   devotion  and  faith ......... if
>  you  know   about  any  bikkhus /  monks  orders  ,  temples ,
>monasteries   ................  in  INDIA  or  elsewhere  in  ASIA
>-------------  who  are  open  and   accept  people   from  other
>countries ------------  please  let  me  know  as  soon  as   possible
>....... for  some  reasons  ,   i    can  not   / will  not  use   the
>internet   except  for   very  short  time ,  rarely  ......   to    read
>your   messages ..............  so  i  appreciate  a   lot   your   support
>please   help   me   with  this .............  also  any  information
>about  your  spiritual  path ........... like  what  are  the   very  exact
>   differences   and   similarities  between  theravada ,  mahayana ,
>tibetan  traditions  and  which  has  more  devotional  aspects
>..........................................................................
>  eternal  blessings  &  thanx .......................  please  contact  me
>  directly  at   :   freeforever777@... ,  valentinpeace@...
>........................................
>



>
>
>NAMASTE ........   OM .........  beloved  sisters  and  brothers  ,
>friends ,   i  am  a   really  dedicated     seeker &  server  ,   living
>a   full  time  spiritual  life ,    in   devotion  and  faith ......... if
>  you  know   about  any  bikkhus /  monks  orders  ,  temples ,
>monasteries   ................  in  INDIA  or  elsewhere  in  ASIA
>-------------  who  are  open  and   accept  people   from  other
>countries ------------  please  let  me  know  as  soon  as   possible
>....... for  some  reasons  ,   i    can  not   / will  not  use   the
>internet   except  for   very  short  time ,  rarely  ......   to    read
>your   messages ..............  so  i  appreciate  a   lot   your   support
>please   help   me   with  this .............  also  any  information
>about  your  spiritual  path ........... like  what  are  the   very  exact
>   differences   and   similarities  between  theravada ,  mahayana ,
>tibetan  traditions  and  which  has  more  devotional  aspects
>..........................................................................
>  eternal  blessings  &  thanx .......................  please  contact  me
>  directly  at   :   freeforever777@... ,  valentinpeace@...
>........................................
>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Hello Sue, and thank-you for your excellent question.  It is true both
Siddharta Gotama and Jesus of Nazareth seemed to have focused their work on a
monastic discipleship.  I believe there were many good reasons for that, but in
this
culture at this time, I believe it is the householders who needs to be
inspired to meditate and empowered to teach.  So, while some of us may travel
about
as itinerant dhamma teachers, others will remain where they are and work with
a local community of contemplatives, what the Buddha called "sangha."

Yes, I do believe that a 3 or 4 month intensive training program is really
useful, and I would like to be able to provide opportunities like that for my
students, and I recognize that this is an honored tradition, so anyone wanting
to arrive at empowerment really needs to consider attending at least one rains
retreat.  But, I do not believe it is essential.  In fact I have not attended
one myself.

I do however believe that anyone wanting to be a source of inspiration and
guidance to a local contemplative community needs to attend at least one 10 day
retreat every year, as I have done for much of the last 30 years.  So, as this
peer group seeks empowerment, I hope you all seek out ways to attend at least
one 10 day meditation retreat every year.  And, I hope you all will endeavor
to attend one 90 to 100 day retreat in your lifetime as well.

Think of a rains retreat as something like a once in a lifetime pilgrimage,
like going on the Hajj to Mecca.

Best regards, Jeff

In a message dated 1/8/04 10:23:26 PM, don_n_sue@... writes:

<< &&&&&&&&
Hello Jeff and other group members:

I'm just wondering if you believe that a yearly 3-4 month rains retreat,
and traveling and teaching alone is still valid and necessary today.  I
ask this because I'm wondering where that leaves those of us who are
married?  Thank you for sharing your understanding of this situation.

Best to you
Sue >>

Hi everyone:
Upon rereading my earlier post please excuse the word valid.  Of course
this is incredibly valid and important.  I just don't see where those of
us who are married are going to be able to do these things.  Sorry for
any harm this unfortunate use of wording may have caused anyone.
Best to you all,
Sue

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:17:11 -0700 don_n_sue@... writes:
> Hello Jeff and other group members:
>
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:41:47 EST macdocaz1@... writes:
> .  As you read through the
> > Nikayas, I believe
> > you will get the same impression about the Buddha I received, and
> > that is, he
> > did not expect his students to be silent devotees for 10, 20, 30
> or
> > 40 years
> > until he died, and then to fight over a single heir to his
> > authority.  He
> > empowered each of his students at a summer 3 or 4 month rains
> > retreat.  Once they
> > had gone through that training they were expected to spread out
> all
> > over the
> > known world to teach.  Unlike Jesus, he recommended they travel
> > alone.  They
> > were also expected to return the following year to the rains
> retreat
> > with their
> > students.  The Buddha's senior students often returned with
> hundreds
> > of
> > students to the point that the rains retreats had thousands of
> > aspirants.
>
> &&&&&&&&
> Hello Jeff and other group members:
>
> I'm just wondering if you believe that a yearly 3-4 month rains
> retreat,
> and traveling and teaching alone is still valid and necessary today.
>  I
> ask this because I'm wondering where that leaves those of us who are
> married?  Thank you for sharing your understanding of this
> situation.
>
> Best to you
> Sue
>
>
> This Yahoo Group is a service of the Tucson_Meditation_Cooperative.
>
> May you become enlightened in this very lifetime
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vivatha/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  Vivatha-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hello Jeff and other group members:

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:41:47 EST macdocaz1@... writes:
.  As you read through the
> Nikayas, I believe
> you will get the same impression about the Buddha I received, and
> that is, he
> did not expect his students to be silent devotees for 10, 20, 30 or
> 40 years
> until he died, and then to fight over a single heir to his
> authority.  He
> empowered each of his students at a summer 3 or 4 month rains
> retreat.  Once they
> had gone through that training they were expected to spread out all
> over the
> known world to teach.  Unlike Jesus, he recommended they travel
> alone.  They
> were also expected to return the following year to the rains retreat
> with their
> students.  The Buddha's senior students often returned with hundreds
> of
> students to the point that the rains retreats had thousands of
> aspirants.

&&&&&&&&
Hello Jeff and other group members:

I'm just wondering if you believe that a yearly 3-4 month rains retreat,
and traveling and teaching alone is still valid and necessary today.  I
ask this because I'm wondering where that leaves those of us who are
married?  Thank you for sharing your understanding of this situation.

Best to you
Sue

Hello future dhamma teachers, yesterday I had a conversation with several
fellow sangha members that brought to mind some key issues worthy of considering
for those who wish to become a dhamma teacher.

First I want to acknowledge your effort at becoming a sangha member, because
I know how difficult it can be to serve people.  Humans can be very unpleasant
beings.  And, we contemplatives can be at times somewhat ascetic.  And, we
ascetics often lead lonely lives, because we tend to prefer our aloness, I know
this.  So, we must always make sure we have a quiet secluded space within
which we can withdraw and renew ourselves.  That quiet refuge is our respective
dhamma centers or our homes that we often open up as dhamma centers.  But, we
must also give rise to an egalitarian love for all beings, not just for the
narcissist humans.  But, what better way to give rise to loving kindness than to
serve humans, not their selfish needs, but to serve them spiritually, to help
them throw off their tiresome burden of selfishness and greed.

I have been encouraging each of you to study the Pali canon, which is the
foundational literature of Buddhism.  As you read through the Nikayas, I believe
you will get the same impression about the Buddha I received, and that is, he
did not expect his students to be silent devotees for 10, 20, 30 or 40 years
until he died, and then to fight over a single heir to his authority.  He
empowered each of his students at a summer 3 or 4 month rains retreat.  Once
they
had gone through that training they were expected to spread out all over the
known world to teach.  Unlike Jesus, he recommended they travel alone.  They
were also expected to return the following year to the rains retreat with their
students.  The Buddha's senior students often returned with hundreds of
students to the point that the rains retreats had thousands of aspirants.

There are a number of reasons why I encourage my students and fellow senior
level dharma seekers to teach.  First and foremost teaching presents us with cha
llenges that inspire us to learn more about the dhamma.  Secondly, too few
teachers empower their students, so that now the USA has many thousands of
highly skilled dhamma students, like you all, but too few of them have a venue
from
which to be heard.  Too often it seems one must claim enlightenment to just
to be heard in this culture.  So, I want to always inspire and empower the
senior practitioners, like you, wherever I find them.

You will be surprised at how quickly you will arrive in your own as you study
the Nikayas.  First of all very few people ever read them.  You will be
amazed almost no dharma teacher here in the West has ever read more than a few
suttas.  And, you will know this as you read the first two volumes, the Digha
Nikaya and the Majjhima Nikaya, then if you attend a dhamma talk, I am sure you
will realize that the teacher you are listening to could never have read the
Nikayas, or he or she would not be saying what they are, an claiming it is the
teachings of the Buddha.

The Nikayas are really the highest authority in Buddhism, even if Mahayana
and Vajrayana outright reject them.  The reason why they reject the Nikayas is
because much of the philosophical construct that holds Mahayana and Vajrayana
beliefs together are not supported by the Nikayas, therefore they must demonize
the teachings of the Buddha.  I find it quite some irony that they even call
themselves Buddhists when they do such things.

So, when you begin to teach do not feel too intimidated when someone
challenges you.  A good dhamma teacher needs to be first and foremost humble, so
if
someone with greater knowledge of the dhamma challenges you, then concede right
away, do not compete and posture.  Listen and thankfully learn.  If they say
things that you do not agree with, then ask them for their canonical support,
then go read that sutta, and see if they are correct.  If you find their
interpretation is flawed, then challenge them.  But, do so without ego and
posturing
and defensiveness, because all of that is based on grasping and aversion,
which we must reject as Buddhist contemplative, because according to the Buddha
grasping and aversion is the cause of dukkha (dissatisfaction).

You will find that few highly trained dhamma teachers know anything about the
ecstatic experience (jhana) or even accept it.  Which might explain why few
of these teachers read or grasp the Nikayas, or they would be dedicated the
ecstasy (jhana).  So, you are already way ahead of 99% of all Lamas, Rinpoches,
Roches, Bhikkhus, Bhantes and lay dhamma teachers.  All you need do is
familiarize yourself with a few suttas to support your philosophical construct
and
read through the two volumes.  You need not memorize anything.

When you feel challenged during dialog, and you feel as if you are caving in
or you are turning to "jelly," look at it.  Seamlessly observe the arising
phenomena, heroically.  Do not let any sensible manifestation of that "caving
in"
escape your observation.  And, if you do that each time, you will gain
equanimity, until some very famous and renowned dhamma scholar could challenge
you
with an excellent argument, and you will not lose any equanimity at all.

So, the dhamma needs community, community needs patience, and compassion.
Dharma teachers need to be the living embodiment of patience, and compassion.
Just lead every moment in service to all beings, and you will get there very
quickly.

Blessings in your journey within,

Jeff Brooks

Welcome Michael, and thank-you for "breaking the ice".  I look forward to
workshopping each other's bios.

Best regards,

Jeff

In a message dated 1/6/04 1:48:33 PM, adreampuppet@... writes:

<< Hello all,

I'm new to the list at the invitation of Jeff.  I live in Boulder, CO
and, to the best of my memory, have never been in Tuscon.  I've not
been a practicing Buddhist ever, except that, through some freak of
Grace, I recently stumbled into a discussion of the Jnanas and
recognized that my past contemplative activities (or non-activities)
had already given rise to the ecstasies described in at least the
first four Jhanas.  So, with Jeff's assistance, I've been energizing
my commitment to meditation, reading the Nikayas and familiarizing
myself with Theravada, which is an alien branch of Buddhism in the
Town Built By Chogyam Trungpa (i.e., Naropa Institute).

That's the mini-bio.  I will work on a longer one and post it to the
list, and I look forward to meeting everyone else through this
medium.  Empowerment is the word.

Much love,
Michael >>

Hello all,

I'm new to the list at the invitation of Jeff.  I live in Boulder, CO
and, to the best of my memory, have never been in Tuscon.  I've not
been a practicing Buddhist ever, except that, through some freak of
Grace, I recently stumbled into a discussion of the Jnanas and
recognized that my past contemplative activities (or non-activities)
had already given rise to the ecstasies described in at least the
first four Jhanas.  So, with Jeff's assistance, I've been energizing
my commitment to meditation, reading the Nikayas and familiarizing
myself with Theravada, which is an alien branch of Buddhism in the
Town Built By Chogyam Trungpa (i.e., Naropa Institute).

That's the mini-bio.  I will work on a longer one and post it to the
list, and I look forward to meeting everyone else through this
medium.  Empowerment is the word.

Much love,
Michael

--- In Vivatha@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote:
> The Personal Biography as a means of empowerment
>
> Meditation teachers often rely on a personal biography to validate
their
> authority to teach, especially in an area, such as meditation,
which is
> subjective, and therefore difficult to quantify.
>
> So, may I inspire all of those who are interested in this peer-
level
> mentorship program, to begin writing personal biographies, and
posting them to this
> site.  We will all then participate in editing each other's
biographies so that
> the relevant information is maintained and irrelevant information
is removed.
>
> For instance a Ph.D. is desirable because people in this culture
are greatly
> impressed with academic achievements.  On the other hand if your
Ph.D. is in
> Hydrology or Literature, then that information would be left out,
but the
> degree would be retained.    A degree in Hydrology from the
University of Arizona
> is defensible, although irrelevant to meditation.  On the other
hand if you
> bought your degree from a diploma mill, then you would not want to
mention the de
> gree at all, because such a degree is not defensable.
>
> Ordination is also important to know, even if for instance you find
it
> irrelevant that you were ordained as a Unity minister, it still is
defensible and
> has some relevance, because after all it is religion.
>
> So, let us begin posting our biographies for editorial feedback.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jeff Brooks

The Personal Biography as a means of empowerment

Meditation teachers often rely on a personal biography to validate their
authority to teach, especially in an area, such as meditation, which is
subjective, and therefore difficult to quantify.

So, may I inspire all of those who are interested in this peer-level
mentorship program, to begin writing personal biographies, and posting them to
this
site.  We will all then participate in editing each other's biographies so that
the relevant information is maintained and irrelevant information is removed.

For instance a Ph.D. is desirable because people in this culture are greatly
impressed with academic achievements.  On the other hand if your Ph.D. is in
Hydrology or Literature, then that information would be left out, but the
degree would be retained.    A degree in Hydrology from the University of
Arizona
is defensible, although irrelevant to meditation.  On the other hand if you
bought your degree from a diploma mill, then you would not want to mention the
de
gree at all, because such a degree is not defensable.

Ordination is also important to know, even if for instance you find it
irrelevant that you were ordained as a Unity minister, it still is defensible
and
has some relevance, because after all it is religion.

So, let us begin posting our biographies for editorial feedback.

Best regards,

Jeff Brooks

Thank-you Sue, I hope it helps you.

Jeff

In a message dated 1/4/04 4:43:55 PM, don_n_sue@... writes:

<< Hello Jeff:
Thank you very much for all the work you put into this post.
Best to you
Sue >>

Hello Jeff:
Thank you very much for all the work you put into this post.
Best to you
Sue

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:12:53 EST macdocaz1@... writes:
> S O U R C E S for the Tipitaka, P A L I Canon
> &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
>
> The Pali Canon is reputed to be a record of the spoken word of the
> historic
> Buddha, Sidharta Gotama.  It is at least the oldest extant document
> of the
> words of the Buddha, first written during the reign of King Ashoka
> in 250 BCE.
> Therefore no other canon of Buddhist literature has a better claim
> of
> authenticity.  It may also be worth pointing out that the other
> canons of Buddhist
> literature are based on first century CE Sanskrit translations of
> the Pali canon
> with additions that can only be of questionable origin.
>
> Reading the Pali canon is an excellent way to come to understand the
> central
> concepts of Buddhism.  While the canon has a reputation for being a
> weighty
> tome, I have found it readable and accessible.  Much of it is even
> online at
> these following websites:
>
> ACCESS TO INSIGHT
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/
>
> The Tipitaka and other valuable Pali sources
> http://www.palikanon.com/english/english_web.htm
>
> The PALI TEXT SOCIETY
> http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
>
> METTANET - LANKA
> http://www.metta.lk/
>
>
> The various volumes of the Pali Canon and their Abbreviations
>
> Digha Nikaya, DN (The Long Discourses).
> translation by Maurice Walshe.
> Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS. 1996:
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=251033
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html
>
>
> Majjhima Nikaya, MN (The Middle Length Discourses).
> translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
> Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=25072X
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html
>
> Samyutta Nikaya, SN (The Connected Discourses of the Buddha)
> translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
> Wisdom Publications. Or ATI www:
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=948507
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html
>
> Anguttara Nikaya, AN (The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha)
> translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera. Or ATI www:
> Altamira Press, 1997
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132552
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html
>
> "The Udana: Inspired utterances by the Buddha &
> The Itivuttaka: The Buddha's sayings."
> Translated by John D. Ireland.
> Buddhist Publication Society, 1998. Or ATI www:
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404214
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/index.html
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/index.html
>
> "The Sutta-Nipata" translated by Dr. H. Saddhatissa
> Curzon Press 1985. or alternatives. Or ATI www:
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=201818
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=133036
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=403082
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html
>
> Dhammapada: The 423 classic profound sayings.
> translated by Ven. Narada Thera
> Buddhist Missionary Society, 1978
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=900034
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/files/Tipitaka%20/Dhammapada
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/index.html
>
> "Buddhist Legends vol. 1-3" Excellent & classic translation
> of Dhammapada & commentary by E.W. Burlingame.
> Pali Text Society. Oxford. PTS. Or www:
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=130576
> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/dhp/1-index.htm
>
> Theragatha
> "Poems by early Buddhist Monks. Theragatha translation by
> K.R. Norman. Pali Text Society. PTS. Or ATI www:
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132595
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/index.html
>
> "Poems by early Buddhist Nuns. Therigatha translation by
>     K.R. Norman PTS. Or ATI www:
>     http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=130312
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/therigatha/index.html
>
>
> THE TIPITAKA
> The Pali is based on the Sri Lanka Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka Series.
> Sinhala is the A.P. de Soyza's translations.
> English is by various authors often downloaded from the Internet
> http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
> Commentaries and other works of significance:
>
> Dictionaries
>
> BUDDHIST DICTIONARY and TIPITAKA
> Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,
> A German proper-work by Nyanatiloka Mahathera. BPS 1997.
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404601
> http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm
> http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html
>
> Pali-English dictionary by Rhys-Davids.
> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/
>
> Organizations
>
> The PALI TEXT SOCIETY
> http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/
>
> METTANET - LANKA
> http://www.metta.lk/
>
> Buddhist Publication Society (BPS),
> http://www.beyondthenet.net/bps/bps_main.htm
>
> "The Questions of King Milinda." 1st century AC.
> By N.K.G. Mendis
> Buddhist Publication Society, 1997
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404217
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132633
> BuddhaSasana
> http://www.budsas.org/index.htm
>
> "The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga."
> Written by Buddhaghosa in 5th century AC.
> translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
> BPS Pariyatti Editions, February  2003
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100
>
> "The Path of Freedom: Vimuttimagga." Simple, direct yet
> profound meditation manual by the Arahat Upatissa from
> Sri Lanka. Written ~ 1st century BC. Translated by NRM
> Ehara, Soma Thera, Kheminda Thera. BPS. 1995.
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404208
>
> "Mindfulness of Breathing" Classic Anapanasati meditation
> manual of the root texts translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
> Buddhist Publication Society. 1998.
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404502
>
> "Way of Mindfulness" Soma Thera's Classic Vippasana manual which is
> highly
> recommendable as the classical commentary to the Discourses on
> Foundation of
> Mindfulness is translated
> here. BPS 1981.
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html
>
> "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma"
> Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi.
> BPS Pariyatti Editions, 1999
> Translation by Anuruddha's Classic manual on the difficult yet
> rewarding
> ancient philosophical psychology of the Buddha. Well explained &
> containing 48
> maps and the Pali source text: Abhidhammattha Sangaha.
> http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771090
>
> "The Buddha's word on Kamma" translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. Wheel
> publication 248/249, BPS.
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel248.html
>
> The Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta) Translated by
> Ñanamoli Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 7
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel007.html
>
> The Discourse on Right View The Sammaditthi Sutta and its
> Commentary.
> Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi Wheel
> 377/379
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html
>
>     For information of publishers 7 free Dhamma texts:
>     See Bookmark Links on the Buddha-Direct website:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/links
>
>
>
> Compiled from numerous Web sources including Buddha-Direct and
> Access To
> Insight by Jeff Brooks, and archived on the Jhana Support Group at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/
>
>
>
>
>
> I wish for you long life, good health and happiness,
>
> Jeff Brooks
>
> moderator, Jhana Support Group
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vivatha/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  Vivatha-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

S O U R C E S for the Tipitaka, P A L I Canon
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

The Pali Canon is reputed to be a record of the spoken word of the historic
Buddha, Sidharta Gotama.  It is at least the oldest extant document of the
words of the Buddha, first written during the reign of King Ashoka in 250 BCE.
Therefore no other canon of Buddhist literature has a better claim of
authenticity.  It may also be worth pointing out that the other canons of
Buddhist
literature are based on first century CE Sanskrit translations of the Pali canon
with additions that can only be of questionable origin.

Reading the Pali canon is an excellent way to come to understand the central
concepts of Buddhism.  While the canon has a reputation for being a weighty
tome, I have found it readable and accessible.  Much of it is even online at
these following websites:

ACCESS TO INSIGHT
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/

The Tipitaka and other valuable Pali sources
http://www.palikanon.com/english/english_web.htm

The PALI TEXT SOCIETY
http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/

METTANET - LANKA
http://www.metta.lk/


The various volumes of the Pali Canon and their Abbreviations

Digha Nikaya, DN (The Long Discourses).
translation by Maurice Walshe.
Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS. 1996:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=251033
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html


Majjhima Nikaya, MN (The Middle Length Discourses).
translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=25072X
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html

Samyutta Nikaya, SN (The Connected Discourses of the Buddha)
translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
Wisdom Publications. Or ATI www:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=948507
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html

Anguttara Nikaya, AN (The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha)
translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera. Or ATI www:
Altamira Press, 1997
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132552
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html

"The Udana: Inspired utterances by the Buddha &
The Itivuttaka: The Buddha's sayings."
Translated by John D. Ireland.
Buddhist Publication Society, 1998. Or ATI www:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404214
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/index.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/index.html

"The Sutta-Nipata" translated by Dr. H. Saddhatissa
Curzon Press 1985. or alternatives. Or ATI www:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=201818
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=133036
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=403082
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html

Dhammapada: The 423 classic profound sayings.
translated by Ven. Narada Thera
Buddhist Missionary Society, 1978
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=900034
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/files/Tipitaka%20/Dhammapada
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/index.html

"Buddhist Legends vol. 1-3" Excellent & classic translation
of Dhammapada & commentary by E.W. Burlingame.
Pali Text Society. Oxford. PTS. Or www:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=130576
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/dhp/1-index.htm

Theragatha
"Poems by early Buddhist Monks. Theragatha translation by
K.R. Norman. Pali Text Society. PTS. Or ATI www:
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132595
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/index.html

"Poems by early Buddhist Nuns. Therigatha translation by
     K.R. Norman PTS. Or ATI www:
     http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=130312
Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/therigatha/index.html


THE TIPITAKA
The Pali is based on the Sri Lanka Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka Series.
Sinhala is the A.P. de Soyza's translations.
English is by various authors often downloaded from the Internet
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/
_______________________________________________________________________

Commentaries and other works of significance:

Dictionaries

BUDDHIST DICTIONARY and TIPITAKA
Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,
A German proper-work by Nyanatiloka Mahathera. BPS 1997.
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404601
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html

Pali-English dictionary by Rhys-Davids.
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/

Organizations

The PALI TEXT SOCIETY
http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/

METTANET - LANKA
http://www.metta.lk/

Buddhist Publication Society (BPS),
http://www.beyondthenet.net/bps/bps_main.htm

"The Questions of King Milinda." 1st century AC.
By N.K.G. Mendis
Buddhist Publication Society, 1997
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404217
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132633
BuddhaSasana
http://www.budsas.org/index.htm

"The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga."
Written by Buddhaghosa in 5th century AC.
translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
BPS Pariyatti Editions, February  2003
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100

"The Path of Freedom: Vimuttimagga." Simple, direct yet
profound meditation manual by the Arahat Upatissa from
Sri Lanka. Written ~ 1st century BC. Translated by NRM
Ehara, Soma Thera, Kheminda Thera. BPS. 1995.
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404208

"Mindfulness of Breathing" Classic Anapanasati meditation
manual of the root texts translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
Buddhist Publication Society. 1998.
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=404502

"Way of Mindfulness" Soma Thera's Classic Vippasana manual which is highly
recommendable as the classical commentary to the Discourses on Foundation of
Mindfulness is translated
here. BPS 1981.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html

"Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma"
Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi.
BPS Pariyatti Editions, 1999
Translation by Anuruddha's Classic manual on the difficult yet rewarding
ancient philosophical psychology of the Buddha. Well explained & containing 48
maps and the Pali source text: Abhidhammattha Sangaha.
http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771090

"The Buddha's word on Kamma" translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. Wheel
publication 248/249, BPS.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel248.html

The Practice of Loving-Kindness (Metta) Translated by
Ñanamoli Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 7
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel007.html

The Discourse on Right View The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary.
Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñanamoli Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi Wheel 377/379
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html

     For information of publishers 7 free Dhamma texts:
     See Bookmark Links on the Buddha-Direct website:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/links



Compiled from numerous Web sources including Buddha-Direct and Access To
Insight by Jeff Brooks, and archived on the Jhana Support Group at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/





I wish for you long life, good health and happiness,

Jeff Brooks

moderator, Jhana Support Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/

In the decades of my involvement in the Western Dhamma, I have often wondered
how we Western contemplatives can arrive at recognition and empowerment in
the West.  There are few programs for bringing one to a professional level of
acknowledgment in Buddhism.

Typically one goes to Asia and lives in a Vihara for 5 years as a monk then
ordains and returns to the USA.  Once in the USA one must continue to be a monk
to maintain one's recognition as a Theravadan Buddhist leader, because in
Theravadan Buddhism, there is no lay ordination.

I believe if Buddhism is going to become a recognized religion that is
accessible by the general public, then Western Buddhism is going to have to
understand the history of religion in the West.  I am sure you are all familiar
with
the basic story, but I think it is worth refreshing here.

Prior to 2000 YA Europe had a wide range of beliefs with some shared concepts
that became known with the pejorative term 'pagan' once Christianity was
established.
3rd century CE the Roman Emperor Constantine legitimizes Christianity and
makes it the sate religion.  Shortly there after all of the other religions are
outlawed.
1521 Martin Luther begins the Protestant rebellion, which produced a century
of Bloodshed as the northern Europeans tried to de-Romanize the Christian
church.  The Catholic Church responds with the Inquisition.  In the process of
the
Protestant Rebellion, the Catholic Counter Reformation and the Inquisition a
whole lot of innocent people were killed in battles or burned at the stake
until 1700 when relative stability returned to Europe.
1700 on relative stability reigns in Europe and competing religions
proliferate.  Many of these new religions immigrate to the new world, such as
the
Quakers and Shakers.

The bottom line is Europeans and Americans are pretty committed to a lay
clergy.  Therefore,  I believe if Buddhism wants to make a go of becoming a
major
religion in the West, then is must come up with a lay ordination process.

Best regards,

Jeff Brooks

Hello Jeff:
Thank you for your understanding of debating.  Yes, dialog is indeed
helpful. I'm not one for debates as the Greeks did. comment below

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 22:14:46 EST macdocaz1@... writes:
> Hello Sue, it is good to hear from you.  Please see my comment below
>
> In a message dated 12/3/03 4:22:56 PM, don_n_sue@... writes:
>
> << Hello Jeff:
> I've been totally unaware of this aspect of spiritual work.  Since I
> have
> never entered into a debate I am unable presently to relate to this
> aspect of spiritual development.  Could you please assist me here in
> understanding what function debate plays.
>
> &&&&&&&&&Jeff: (from an earlier post)
> I was seeking the Pali word for 'debate.' Meriam, the English
> speaking American assistant, got right back with me with the word,
> 'Vivatha'
> and she said, "The monks say, Buddhists like to debate."
>
> The word 'Vivatha' immediately reminded me of the student of Sri
> Ramakrishna,
> Vivekananda, who founded the Vedanta Society early in the 20th
> century
> here
> in the United States. 'Viveka' would be the Sanskrit equivalent of
> the
> Pali
> 'Vivatha,' so Vivekananda would translate as 'one who has realized
> bliss
> through debate.' >>
>
> %%%%%%%%%% Jeff:
> It really isn't a love of debate in the sense of ancient Greek
> philosophy.
> Buddhist are interested in dialog, not so much discourse as we
> perceive
> Buddhism today.  It is exactly like your question.  You ask a
> question of someone who
> you think knows more.  They respond, the brings up more questions.
> You
> challenge their answer, they challenge your beliefs and assumptions,
> and you
> challenge theirs.
>
> So, Vivatha is about dialog, not argument, not discourse.
> %%%%%%%%%%
>
> ++++++
>  Tantra depended on the power
> component of direct transmission, and Chan depended on the instant
> "enlightenment" experience provided by the presence of an
> enlightened
> master.
> It would be reasonable to say what Tantra and Chan had in common was
> direct
> transmission and instantaneous release from their suffering.
>
> *********Sue
> Wow, this is an incredible statement for me.  Yes, yes, yes, direct
> transmission.  Thanks
> Best to you
> Sue >>
>
> %%%%%%%%%% Jeff:
> Well, that tantra piece was in regard to a class I took last Spring.
>  Yes,
> Tantra is in part about transmission of power.  It is also about the
> practice of
> visualization.  And, it is about perceiving all sensible reality as
> the
> deity.  And, about seeing yourself as the Deities consort.  In this
> way, Tantra is
> devotional dualism taking to its extreme just prior to union in
> non-dualism.



********Sue
.  Yes, I understand.  I relate to this aspect of power of transmission
to be a direct transmission of energy from Deity to consort.  Interesting
class you took



&&&&&&Jeff
>
> In the case of transmission causing a student to become "instantly"
> enlightened, it is the teacher providing a moment in which the
> students discursive
> thinking finally, but momentarily collapses and produces a moment of
>
> enlightenment, or immediacy.  Of course most students return to the
> discursive thought
> patterns.  The teacher keeps providing moments of "enlightenment"
> until the
> student "gets it" and stays in the moment and gives the mind a long
> needed rest.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jeff



*********Sue


Thank you Jeff
Best to you
Sue
>

Hello Sue, it is good to hear from you.  Please see my comment below

In a message dated 12/3/03 4:22:56 PM, don_n_sue@... writes:

<< Hello Jeff:
I've been totally unaware of this aspect of spiritual work.  Since I have
never entered into a debate I am unable presently to relate to this
aspect of spiritual development.  Could you please assist me here in
understanding what function debate plays.

&&&&&&&&&Jeff: (from an earlier post)
I was seeking the Pali word for 'debate.' Meriam, the English
speaking American assistant, got right back with me with the word,
'Vivatha'
and she said, "The monks say, Buddhists like to debate."

The word 'Vivatha' immediately reminded me of the student of Sri
Ramakrishna,
Vivekananda, who founded the Vedanta Society early in the 20th century
here
in the United States. 'Viveka' would be the Sanskrit equivalent of the
Pali
'Vivatha,' so Vivekananda would translate as 'one who has realized bliss
through debate.' >>

%%%%%%%%%% Jeff:
It really isn't a love of debate in the sense of ancient Greek philosophy.
Buddhist are interested in dialog, not so much discourse as we perceive
Buddhism today.  It is exactly like your question.  You ask a question of
someone who
you think knows more.  They respond, the brings up more questions.  You
challenge their answer, they challenge your beliefs and assumptions, and you
challenge theirs.

So, Vivatha is about dialog, not argument, not discourse.
%%%%%%%%%%

++++++
  Tantra depended on the power
component of direct transmission, and Chan depended on the instant
"enlightenment" experience provided by the presence of an enlightened
master.
It would be reasonable to say what Tantra and Chan had in common was
direct
transmission and instantaneous release from their suffering.

*********Sue
Wow, this is an incredible statement for me.  Yes, yes, yes, direct
transmission.  Thanks
Best to you
Sue >>

%%%%%%%%%% Jeff:
Well, that tantra piece was in regard to a class I took last Spring.  Yes,
Tantra is in part about transmission of power.  It is also about the practice of
visualization.  And, it is about perceiving all sensible reality as the
deity.  And, about seeing yourself as the Deities consort.  In this way, Tantra
is
devotional dualism taking to its extreme just prior to union in non-dualism.

In the case of transmission causing a student to become "instantly"
enlightened, it is the teacher providing a moment in which the students
discursive
thinking finally, but momentarily collapses and produces a moment of
enlightenment, or immediacy.  Of course most students return to the discursive
thought
patterns.  The teacher keeps providing moments of "enlightenment" until the
student "gets it" and stays in the moment and gives the mind a long needed rest.

Best regards,

Jeff

Hello Jeff:
I've been totally unaware of this aspect of spiritual work.  Since I have
never entered into a debate I am unable presently to relate to this
aspect of spiritual development.  Could you please assist me here in
understanding what function debate plays.

&&&&&&&&&Jeff:
I was seeking the Pali word for 'debate.' Meriam, the English
speaking American assistant, got right back with me with the word,
'Vivatha'
and she said, "The monks say, Buddhists like to debate."

The word 'Vivatha' immediately reminded me of the student of Sri
Ramakrishna,
Vivekananda, who founded the Vedanta Society early in the 20th century
here
in the United States. 'Viveka' would be the Sanskrit equivalent of the
Pali
'Vivatha,' so Vivekananda would translate as 'one who has realized bliss
through debate.'

++++++
  Tantra depended on the power
component of direct transmission, and Chan depended on the instant
"enlightenment" experience provided by the presence of an enlightened
master.
It would be reasonable to say what Tantra and Chan had in common was
direct
transmission and instantaneous release from their suffering.

*********Sue
Wow, this is an incredible statement for me.  Yes, yes, yes, direct
transmission.  Thanks
Best to you
Sue

Hello Barry, your program seems a bit rigorous to me, but I will go with it
for now.  I will agree that anyone who seeks to teach meditation should first
and foremost have a daily meditation practice regimen.  I hadn't really
considered duration and frequency, but two sessions a day of an hour each seems
reasonable to me.

I will also agree that attending regular meditation retreats seems essential
in the training as well.  I was thinking more on the lines of an annual 10 day
retreat as a minimum, but two 10 day retreats seems acceptable.

And, I think your idea of attending a 90 day meditation retreat once, as a
kind of graduation training seems reasonable as well.  After all that appears to
be the way the historic Buddha taught his students to become teachers.  And,
this is how Jack Kornfield, Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzburg, Robert Hover,
Ruth Denison and many of the other teachers who are now leading retreats
arrived at empowerment.

A mentorship program also would be very nice.  Possibly incorporated into an
annual 10 day retreats and/or into the final 90 day retreat.  IMS has the
special 90 day retreat for teacher training that gives each student teacher
practice at giving dharma talks and interviews.

Thanks-you so much for yo contribution to the subject.

Jeff Brooks

In a message dated 12/2/03 10:34:11 AM, bref0101@... writes:

<< To all potential teachers;
      I believe that one needs to attend at least two ten day retreats
for the first three to five years and also have a daily meditation
practice of approximately 2 hours per day.  Next, one needs to attend
a teacher training process with some acknowledged group for a period
from a 90 day training retreat to a 30 day each year for two years to
a two week training every 6 months for two years.

      Also, one needs to be involved in a sitting group to develop
necessary skills for dharma teacher on the job training.

                               will continue later;
                                     respectfully;
                                        The Bear >>

To all potential teachers;
      I believe that one needs to attend at least two ten day retreats
for the first three to five years and also have a daily meditation
practice of approximately 2 hours per day.  Next, one needs to attend
a teacher training process with some acknowledged group for a period
from a 90 day training retreat to a 30 day each year for two years to
a two week training every 6 months for two years.

      Also, one needs to be involved in a sitting group to develop
necessary skills for dharma teacher on the job training.

                               will continue later;
                                     respectfully;
                                        The Bear

The Canadian Tibetan Association of Ontario (CTAO) is happy to
announce His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet will confer the
Kalachakra Initiation for World Peace from April 25th to May 5th 2004
in Toronto. Stay informed by subscribing to the official announcement
list hosted at http://topica.com/lists/kalachakra2004 by emailing
kalachakra2004-subscribe@.... Visit http://kalachakra2004.com
for more information.

Both Tantra and Chan emerged at the same time during the Tang dynasty, so it
would be worth reflecting on what was going on during the Tang that inspired,
or at least permitted, both of these, otherwise radically different modes of
spiritual expression to emerge at the same time.
The Tang was typified by disorganization and decay.  This lack of cohesion in
the dynasty must have made people feel powerless, and that might be why they
sought power through Tantra.  Tantra was typified by being articulated by
powerful teachers who were widely claimed to have psychic powers, such as
making it rain, etc.  Tantra was also meant to be handed down directly
through transmission from the powerful teacher to the ready student.  They
also practiced elaborate and highly ritualized ceremonies, which must have
appealed to people as much as a circus would have.
Chan on the other hand did not offer power or ritual, but it did offer
instant enlightenment, which must have had as much appeal to some, as making
it rain was for the farmers.  The chaos of the times may have also been why
some sought emptiness in Chan.  Perhaps it was in a sense of futility that
drove these people to Chan.  If you recall dispassion is one of the central
aspects of the spiritual quest. Some religions and traditions, like Buddhism,
actually consider dispassion to be an essential and indispensable
prerequisite for the spiritual path.
Another place where Tantra and Chan are alike is they both depended on direct
transmission from an enlightened master. Tantra depended on the power
component of direct transmission, and Chan depended on the instant
"enlightenment" experience provided by the presence of an enlightened master.
It would be reasonable to say what Tantra and Chan had in common was direct
transmission and instantaneous release from their suffering.

Jeff Brooks

It seems clear to me that the division between the Southern School and the
Northern school was only a rhetoric created by Shenhui when it came time for
him to establish his authority.  Since he came from a lesser school, under
Huineng, then he was at a disadvantage when trying to present himself as a
religious authority.
Certainly the concept of sudden enlightenment did not exist in Chan until,
according to the story, Huineng had achieved enlightenment instantly upon
hearing the Diamond Sutra.  This caused a splinter in the Chan schools when
Huineng left, moved to the south and opened his own school on the frontier.
Shenui studied for a few years from Huineng then left to travel.  When he
came back he found his master old, and possibly too feeble to give him the
necessary transmission of authority.  After Huineng died, I believe Shenui
found himself without transmission of authority, so he wrote the Platform
Sutra and presented it as Huineng's work, then set to work inventing a debate
that the Northern school never even participated in.
What seems to have killed the Northern school was Imperial proscription,
which damaged the Northern school.  Since the Northern School was in the
capital they were closer to the Emperor and therefor close to the
proscription.  The Southern School, on the other hand, was on the southern
frontier, and therefore nearly untouched by the proscription.  When the
proscription was lifted, there was only Shenui's Southern School conveniently
available with documentary proof of their authority in the Platform Sutra.

Jeff Brooks

Tsung-mi followed Shen hui in criticizing the Northern School because of its
emphasis on a gradual contemplative regimen, as well as a disregard for the
concept of sudden enlightenment.  While Tsung-mi maintained Shen hui's
teaching of sudden enlightenment, he also held a concept of gradual
cultivation.  He maintained that Shen hui's teaching advocated the necessity
of a sudden momentary experience of enlightenment followed by gradual
cultivation.  His position may have been successfully recognized as one of
compromise with the Northern School for his support of gradual cultivation.
Chinul followed in Tsung-mi's foot steps by advocating the practice of
establishing a momentary experience of enlightenment in his students, then
following that up with a gradual cultivation.  In his theology.  the sudden
enlightenment experience was not seen as the ultimate or end all but simply a
kind of revival experience that served as inspiration to encourage the
student forward.  Therefore Tsung-mi  and Chinul may have served as offering
a compromise with the Northern School, even though they have been accused of
syncretism.
Continuing the rhetoric of debate between the Southern and Northern Schools
may have continued to serve the Southern School with a platform from which
they could preach their uniqueness while establishing their authority.  This
debate between the Southern and Northern Schools may actually parallel the
fiction of debate between Mahayana and Theravadan Buddhism.  The Theravadans
have never even considered the debate, let alone participated in it.  The
whole construct of the Mahayana verses Hinayana traditions maybe purely a
rhetorical device to promote Mahayana concepts at the expense of Theravadan
Buddhism.
This rhetoric of debate is successful in Buddhism because, traditionally,
schools of Buddhism never debate.  It is perceived as unseemly for monks to
argue, especially in public.  Therefore the Southern School could be a "bad
boy" by calling out the Northern School for a fight, when they know the
Northern School is too composed and too assured of their position to every
meet them in public debate.
The same maybe true of the Theravadan tradition.  They are too composed and
too sure of their orthodox position to ever come to the public forum to meet
the Mahayana "bad boys" for a "fight" over doctrine, which is only a fiction
after all.

Jeff Brooks

Because of the insistence on instant enlightenment, Chan was no doubt
propelled through a series of transformations.  One has to ask what a teacher
could do to cause a student to become empty by disrupting their thinking
processes.  Certainly it appears that some of the teachers, like Huineng,
were probably excellent orators, who could inspire the necessary disruption
of thought through discourse.  But, not all teachers are capable of oration,
even if they are enlightened.
That I believe is why other methods were developed.  I believe it is
reasonable to speculate that each teacher developed their own unique style.
Some teachers learned the style of the master and followed in their
footsteps.  Other teachers had to resort to other methods.
I believe the underlying principle behind many of the various methods of
causing a disruption in thought is the startling effect of an abrupt action
or a disjunctive question.  Certainly being struck by one's meditation
teacher, especially if he was not known for striking his students, might have
been so disruptive to the expectations of the student, that their minds were
simply confounded.  The same goes for shouts and claps, in an otherwise still
and serene monastery environment.
Resorting to Koans and Key Phrases is another method of disrupting the
expectations of the rational mind.  If one is asked what the sound of one
hand clapping is, the mind cannot even wrap itself around the idea.  It
confounds the mind, because there is no sound of one hand clapping.  It is
silence, and the mind will keep trying to engage in the concept, because it
is a compelling question, but the mind can never answer it, because there is
no answer, and therefore the mind will keep approaching silence as it engages
in the question.
Therefore since instant enlightenment is a central principle in Chan
Buddhism, the teacher has to come up with a method of causing the necessary
disruption of the mental processes.  And, since old methods get stale, new
methods have to be developed.  That is why Chan is forced to evolve new
methods of confounding the mind.

Jeff Brooks

1 Three Levels

It is said Xinxing, the patriarch of the Three Levels tradition, had trouble
quieting his mind.  Perhaps this is why he constructed his theology around
the idea of decline.  He maintained that both Buddhism and culture had
declined too much for the "old methods" to work any more.  So, he constructed
a discipline based on charity.  The concept was to simply give to his
"Inexhaustible Storehouse" and one would achieve Nirvana.
In most traditions of Buddhism it is often recommend, in cases of a restless
mind, to come up with ways to continually redirect the mind toward the goal
of perfection and enlightenment.  Every tradition has its own ways of
redirecting the mind.  In Pure Land they chant Amitaba incessantly.  In other
traditions every aspect of one's life is directed toward the spiritual goal.
In his concept of the Inexhaustible Storehouse, Xinxing, came up with a way
to occupy the busy mind, while financing the Dharma.
His list of recommended items for donation were mostly the simple needs of a
monastery, such as candles, incense and food.  It was a fairly ingenious idea
of financing the dharma through inspiring generosity in his followers.
Unfortunately, his plan some what back fired, because it was too popular.
Three Ways, and Xinxing, became to wealthy and powerful, and thus a threat to
Imperial authority.  Also his theology of decline got him into trouble with
the Emperor because, fundamentally, Three Levels was deemed heretical because
Xinxing claimed that Buddhism and people had decayed too much to be able to
follow the old ways to enlightenment.
His theology of decay was seen as a comment on the level of Imperial decay,
because (especially in China) the state of the "nation" is perceived as a
reflection of the state of the Emperor. Therefore if the people and Buddhism
had decayed too much to achieve enlightenment, then the Emperor was at fault.
As for orthodoxy, every tradition of every religion seeks canonical support
for their beliefs.  It is not surprising the Xinxing also sought canonical
support for his beliefs.  His support came from something the historic Buddha
had supposedly said about decline in his teaching being a product of time.
Xinxing had interpreted that to mean that decline was based on temporal
distance from the historic Buddha.  Since the Tang dynasty was 1500 years
after the historic Buddha's lifetime, then Xinxing reasoned they were in the
third stage of decline.
By claiming decline and by becoming wealthy and powerful, Xinxing became a
threat to Imperial authority, which caused the Emperor to accuse him of
heresy.

Jeff Brooks

In a message dated 5/13/03 6:53:11 PM, delynemma@... writes:

<< I'm still working diligently on this final, and I'll be amazed when it is
finished.  I don't really have any more questions.  I'm not particularly
confident in my assertations and answers, so I don't know if my thoughts
would be much help.  BUT I am totally open for discussion to the best of my
ability.  Best of luck, DeLyn >>

Feel free to forward this list to the class list serve.  maybe with all of us
contributing it could be quite a nice joint venture.  Since my hard drive
died, I do not have the class list serve address any more.

Glad I could be of help.

Feel free to call me, 247-5587

Jeff

In a message dated 5/13/03 4:13:37 AM, delynemma@... writes:

<< Hi.
I can't remember for the life of me where to find the info on why 3 levels is
later deemed heretical.  Can anyone help me out?  Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!
DeLyn >>

Hi DeLyn, I am cramming for my Archeology exam in an hour and 15 minutes, so
this is going to have to be a quick response.

The Heresy of Three Levels

Fundamentally Three Levels was deemed heretical because he, (the patriarch)
claimed that Buddhism and people had decayed too much to be able to follow
the old ways to enlightenment.  His theology of decay was scene as a comment
on the level of Imperial decay, because (especially in China) the state of
the "nation" is a reflection of the state of the Emperor.  Therefore if the
people and Buddhism had decayed too much to achieve enlightenment, then the
Emperor was at fault.

If you have any other comments to contribute to this or the other quesitons
we had, it would be greatly apreciated.

In a message dated 5/10/03 10:50:09 AM, JustJminor writes:

<< Hi Jeff,
I know you are busy with your art exhibit this weekend but I was wondering if
you could give me a bit of insight about the final.  I am nearly finished,
but I am struggling with the Tantrism vs. Chan question.  I was wondering
about the strategies used to create a supreme power structure that translated
into the political sphere.  any thoughts on this?

Sorry I had to leave so early the other night, my mind was unable to settle
from the rush of my day. I went home and relaxed for a bit and was then able
to crank out three of the questions.  I just had to quiet my mind..it really
is amazing.

I would appreciate any thoughts you have on this question.  Ive been stuck on
it for quite some time.  Thank you so much for all of your help and optimism!

I hope your final and the art exhibit are a success!
Have a wonderful weekend.

Sincerely,
Leah >>

Hi Leah, sorry to be getting back to you so late.  My hard drive died Friday,
and this is the first I've been able to get back online again.  If you are
still needing input I will give you what little I can here.

As you recall we were having a bit of trouble connecting Chan with Tantra,
but if you recall I believe it would be correct in saying that both Tantra
and Chan emerged at the same time (the Tang dynasty) so it would be worth
reflecting on what was going on during the Tang that inspired, or at least
permitted, both of these, otherwise radically different modes of spiritual
expression to emerge at the same time.

My guess is, the Tang made people feel powerless, and that is why they sought
power through Tantra.  It may also be why they sought emptiness in Chan.
Perhaps it was in a sense of futility that drove others to Chan.  If you
recall dispassion is one of the central aspects of the spiritual quest.  Some
religions and traditions actually consider dispassion to be an essential and
indispensable prerequisite for the spiritual path.

Another place where Tantra and Chan are alike is they both depended on
transmission from an enlightened master.  Tantra depended on the power
component of direct transmission, and Chan depended on the instant
"enlightenment" experience provided by the presence of an enlightened master.

I personally don't see much to compare between Tantra and Chan.  I believe it
would be more useful to contrast these two otherwise diametrically opposed
traditions.

If you have anything to add, I would greatly appreciate it because, since my
hard drive died, I have lost all of my work for this semester.

Also, maybe we could all do this online via a Yahoo group, this way we could
all benefit.  I have started a yahoo group called Vivata, which is the Pali
term for debate.  It hasn't had any activity yet, so it could be a safe place
for us all to "meet" at our own convenience.  I'll be sending you an
invitation to it, but, if you have the class list serve, feel free to forward
this note to the other students.

Vivatha-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Other very active Yahoo groups dedicated to the study of Buddhist Dhamma are
as follows:

Dhamma-list

A constructive and inspiring list for all who're interested in Buddhism
(particularly Theravada Buddhism).

    1. The dhamma-list is a mailing list on Theravada Buddhism.
    2. Its membership has an international flavour with people from Asia,
Europe, America, Pacific, etc. Membership consists of monks as well as
laities.
    3. Its emphasis is on the practical aspects of Theravada Buddhism, rather
than scholarly discussions.
    4. It is highly suitable for people who wants to understand Theravada
Buddhism or to further their knowledge of it.

dhamma-list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Dhamma Study Group

A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's
teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record
of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in
the ancient commentaries of that tradition.

The discussions include matters of both theory and practice, with the aim of
developing precise understanding of the realities of the present moment.

The group started in Bangkok in the early 1970's under the guidance of the
Thai Theravadin teacher Khun Sujin Boriharnwanaket.

Subscribe:  dhammastudygroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Buddhist Wellness Group

  Please join the group for discussion on Buddhism and Mental [Mind] Wellness.
Share your experiences, thoughts, or your personal or expert opinions, on the
above two subject matter.   I believe that: - we learn through sharing,
reasoning, and practising. Sharing , [a manifestation of generosity, a highly
valued practice of buddhism], is a high level of psychological [mind]
function for healthy people. Hope we all can learn   from one another using
this forum. Please be aware that there is absolutely no therapeutic or
treatment value in your participation. Each participation is entirely
voluntary. This is a multi-sects or eclectic Buddhist Group. Please have
respect of others' opinion of Buddhism. This is not a forum for debate or
critique of Buddhism. May peace and wellness be with you all.

Subscribe:  BuddhistWellnessGroup-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Best to you,  Jeff

EDITORIAL from THE SOUTHWEST INSIGHT E'LETTER
Vol. 3.4 April 1, 2003

Vivatha.  Debate Leads to Transformation

I had been aware of the Tibetan Buddhist formal practice of debate, which is
commonly presented as an essential training exercise for monks in the
Vajrayana tradition.  I was not aware of a similar tradition in Theravadan
Buddhism, so I called Wat Promkunaram, a Theravadan temple in Phoenix, where
I recently sat a weekend retreat.  My request was passed on to one of their
monks, I was seeking the Pali word for 'debate.'  Meriam, the English
speaking American assistant, got right back with me with the word, 'Vivatha'
and she said, "The monks say, Buddhists like to debate."

The word 'Vivatha' immediately reminded me of the student of Sri Ramakrishna,
Vivekananda, who founded the Vedanta Society early in the 20th century here
in the United States.  'Viveka' would be the Sanskrit equivalent of the Pali
'Vivatha,' so Vivekananda would translate as 'one who has realized bliss
through debate.'  And, that name certainly fits Vivekananda, who as many of
you may know, was an amazing intellect, and prolific writer.  He was also one
of my early mentors through reading many of his fine books on yoga and
enlightenment.

With the intention of promoting a lively and constructive dialog between the
practitioners of Insight in the Southwest I have established this listserv
group on Yahoo, which as you have noticed is appropriately called Vivatha.
My hope is that the members of this group will be dedicated to dialog and
debate in a Buddhist context, by observing right speech, right thought and
right action, which will be dedicated to harmlessness (thus avoiding harmful
speech), as well as a dedication to the pursuit of enlightenment.

My hope is that through open dialog here much of the conflict that my
editorials tend to stir up will have an avenue of expression.  I am also
hopeful of extracting some of that dialog here for inclusion in the SOUTHWEST
INSIGHT E'LETTER.  For those who wish simply to send a letter-to-the-editor
without having to enter into dialog, then feel free to email me directly as
many of you already have.  In support of dialog I hope to be able to provide
articles from our sangha of excellent practitioners.  So, if any of you have
been wanting to publish something of or relating to vipassana and insight or
Buddhism, then please email it to me and I will consider it for inclusion in
that format.

Along with my commitment to dialog I have begun a Letters to the Editor
section in the SOUTHWEST INSIGHT E'LETTER.  I fully intend to publish letters
that represent every point of view, including of course those who feel I am
full of it, or disagree in any way with my editorials, or work for the
dharma.  And, any of those letters that seem especially eloquent, whether
supportive or not, I hope to include as articles.  So, if you have found
yourself especially inspired to express either agreement or dissent by any of
my articles, now is your opportunity to be heard by the Southwestern Sangha
at large.  Don't worry about hurting my feelings, thanks to my practice, I
seem to be pretty impervious to criticism these days.

I do think that any efforts to silence debate are examples of how European
and Christian culture have often sought homogeneity and orthodoxy by burning
books up until only very recently.  People who expressed dissent were often
burned at the stake until the 18th century, but then the Nazi efforts to wipe
out the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Communists and any other people who
either expressed or represented decent in the 20th century, is certainly very
much in this cultural trajectory.

While American and allied forces are now bombing Iraq it maybe worth
reflecting that Islam never sought homogeneity in any of their domains.  They
lived fairly peacefully with Jews and Christians for the last 1500 yeas,
although they did their best to wipe out Buddhism.  On the other hand,
Christianity has to take credit for burning the great libraries of the
Mediterranean cultures, such as the Libraries of Alexandria, and Cordoba as
well as the School of Athens.  In contrast, the Islamic world was building
universities, hospitals, orphanages and libraries to archive the writing of
all peoples they encountered a thousand years ago.  In fact Europeans
acquired the literature of the classics from Islamic libraries, because the
School of Athens took refuge for many years in the Islamic domain.

So, lets all take this opportunity to express ourselves respectfully.

May you all be free from suffering,

Jeff Brooks, editor
The Southwest Insight E'letter