Weet je zeker dat d en g stemhebbend zijn?
Ik kan die maken met m'n keel dicht, dus...

Henry

dutch-english-study-group@egroups.com hef schreven:
>Hallo Henry,
>
>> Btw, ik bedoelde niet dat 't 'n foutje was van mij om niet in
>> Amsterdam te komen, maar meer omdat ik 'n foute opmerking
>> over de stemloze v heb gemaakt blijkbaar. Ik ging er vanuit dat
>> dat betekende dat 'ie helemaal niet uitgesproken werd.
>
>Stemloos betekent in de fonetiek dat je stembanden niet meedoen.
>Het moet eigenlijk zijn: unvoiced/sharp/surd consonants.
>In tegenstelling tot stemhebbend: soft consonants.
>Stemloos:         t - f - ch - p - s
>Stemhebbend: d - v - g - b - z
>Zo ongeveer, tenminste.
>
>Groetjes, Laila
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Hallo Henry,

> Btw, ik bedoelde niet dat 't 'n foutje was van mij om niet in
> Amsterdam te komen, maar meer omdat ik 'n foute opmerking
> over de stemloze v heb gemaakt blijkbaar. Ik ging er vanuit dat
> dat betekende dat 'ie helemaal niet uitgesproken werd.

Stemloos betekent in de fonetiek dat je stembanden niet meedoen.
Het moet eigenlijk zijn: unvoiced/sharp/surd consonants.
In tegenstelling tot stemhebbend: soft consonants.
Stemloos:         t - f - ch - p - s
Stemhebbend: d - v - g - b - z
Zo ongeveer, tenminste.

Groetjes, Laila

Hallo allemaal,

thanks, Laila [as in the Finnish name Laila?] and Henry, for the info on /v/
and /w/ (as well as /f/ and /z/).
This list is almost too active; I haven't digested all the e-mails yet :)

Nevertheless I'll post a new question: another thing I've noticed is that
there seems to be quite a lot of variation in the diphthong spelled "ui" --
is there any clear geographical distribution involved here as well? What
I've noticed more specifically is that the second element isn't predictable
as the first one, i.e. even though it usually starts with the same sound
([o]) it sometimes ends on a [y], but sometimes on a sound pronounced far
more back, almost like the second element in the English diphthongs "ou" in
"out" or "o" in "bone". Any comments?

Grotjes,
Urban

Hallo Evie,

> > P.S. If it's impossible for the other members to read this
> > message, I'll not write messages in Dutch anymore.
> <snipje>

> Nee, nee, ik vind het nederlandse schrijven goed te
lezen...maar ik zou
> messages in beide taalen beter vinden.  Is dit possible?

Dat is mogelijk maar soms is dat te veel werk.
It's possible but sometimes it means too much work.

> Ik ben Evie, en ik vind it leuk nederlands met mijn vrienden
aan ICQ te
> praaten.  Ik heb Donaldsons _A Comprehensive Grammar_, mijn
_201 Dutch
> Verbs_, en mijn woordenboek.  Ik denk, dat ik ben een beetje
fluent maar
> niet zo recht.  Kan je mijn nederlands lezen?

Ik kan je Nederlands goed lezen. I can read and understand your
Dutch.
Het is niet foutloos maar dat is niet erg. It's not perfect but
that doesn't matter.
Als ik iets niet snap, zal ik het wel vragen. When I don't
understand something I'll ask.

> Evie, in een nederlandse taalvacuum in Florida <g>

Groetjes, Laila

I just want to say thank you to everyone for the big response that
this group has received in its first 24 hours of existence. I
am one of the creators of this group and was not expecting it. I am
glad that the response has been as it is and hope that it
continues. Laila, I want to thank you for the files that you so
graciously offered. As for writing in Dutch and English, in my
opinion, it really does not matter. Although I am a beginner, and
have no idea of what you wrote, I will look up the words in a
dictionary and hopefully learn some words and their meanings. Also,
by trying to translate what you have written, maybe I can
grasp the rules for writing a sentence beyond the 3 word sentences
that I write now. We are all here to learn and help and I
think that this will help accomplish our goals. Living in a small
town in the US, with no Native helpers, I think that what we ask
and answer here will almost be as good as having a Native Helper. It
is very difficult learning on your own and I think that
having helpers like you, Henri, and the others will ease some of the
difficulties and frustrations. Again, I want to thank you all.
Now that I have said that, I would like to ask a question. Is there a
SIMPLE rule for writing sentences or word order? :-)
Dank je voor jouw hulp. If ever my Dutch is incorrect, please feel
free to correct me. I do want to learn :-)

Kind regards / Vriendelijke groeten
lakota

> P.S. If it's impossible for the other members to read this
> message, I'll not write messages in Dutch anymore.
<snipje>

Nee, nee, ik vind het nederlandse schrijven goed te lezen...maar ik zou
messages in beide taalen beter vinden.  Is dit possible?

Ik ben Evie, en ik vind it leuk nederlands met mijn vrienden aan ICQ te
praaten.  Ik heb Donaldsons _A Comprehensive Grammar_, mijn _201 Dutch
Verbs_, en mijn woordenboek.  Ik denk, dat ik ben een beetje fluent maar
niet zo recht.  Kan je mijn nederlands lezen?

Evie, in een nederlandse taalvacuum in Florida <g>

Hallo weer Laila,

Klopt, het is geen algemeen Nederlands, maar 't komt
WEL veel voor, dus 't is wel goed voor buitenlanders om
te weten dat 't gewoon "even" betekent!

Het komt omdat ik Neder-Saksisch (Saxon) spreek.
Daarin zeggen we (phonetisch) "eawen" of  soms "eamen".
Als ik Nederlands spreek, is dat soms met nogal 'n accent,
en dan gebruik ik "emen", i.p.v. "even".

Mensen uit 't zuiden snappen 't wel hoor, ze leiden 't wel af
uit de context.

Btw, ik bedoelde niet dat 't 'n foutje was van mij om niet in
Amsterdam te komen, maar meer omdat ik 'n foute opmerking
over de stemloze v heb gemaakt blijkbaar. Ik ging er vanuit dat
dat betekende dat 'ie helemaal niet uitgesproken werd.

Henry

Hallo Michelle,

> i am from glace bay nova scotia and been living in netherlands
for three
> years and having hard time with langusge as mostly i only talk
my husband
> all day

It's difficult to learn a language like that. Do you speak Dutch
with your husband?

Groetjes, Laila

Hallo Henry,

> How do you pronounce the 'w' in Dutch, without the teeth???
> Couldn't imagine how... I tried, but the only things coming out
> of my mouth are funny wounds, not w's...

Your tongue is resting. Probably against the lower teeth but
without tension.
Your lips are almost closed and certainly not 'round'.
Open your lips just a little bit.
Let out a little airstream as for 'h' but not as strong.
That could to the trick...

Groetjes, Laila

Hallo Henry,

> "emen" wordt gebruikt in 't oosten van 't land, waar ik woon.
> Zoals in "ku jij da nie em'n doen?" (kun jij dat niet even
doen?).
> D'r wordt wel meer weggelaten, vrees ik...

Ja, maar dat 'emen' is toch echt geen AN (Algemeen Nederlands).
Mensen uit het zuiden zullen vaak niet eens begrijpen wat 'emen'
is...

Ik denk dat het bij jullie 'emen' is omdat de schwa van de
laatste syllabe daar vaak weggelaten wordt. Makkelijker positie
van de spraakorganen.

> In Amsterdam kom ik niet vaak, kan 'n foutje van mij zijn.

Nee hoor, helemaal niet. Leuke stad om te bezoeken. Ik wil er
niet wonen.
En die uitspraak van 'v' als 'f' en 'z' als 's' vind ik vreselijk
om te horen.

Amsterdams:  De sjon in de sjee sjien schène...
Nederlands:    De zon in de zee zien schijnen...
Engels:           Seeing the sun being reflected in the sea...

Groetjes, Laila

P.S. If it's impossible for the other members to read this
message, I'll not write messages in Dutch anymore.

Hallo Henry,

> "emen" wordt gebruikt in 't oosten van 't land, waar ik woon.
> Zoals in "ku jij da nie em'n doen?" (kun jij dat niet even
doen?).
> D'r wordt wel meer weggelaten, vrees ik...

Ja, maar dat 'emen' is toch echt geen AN (Algemeen Nederlands).
Mensen uit het zuiden zullen vaak niet eens begrijpen wat 'emen'
is...

Ik denk dat het bij jullie 'emen' is omdat de schwa van de
laatste syllabe daar vaak weggelaten wordt. Makkelijker positie
van de spraakorganen.

> In Amsterdam kom ik niet vaak, kan 'n foutje van mij zijn.

Nee hoor, helemaal niet. Leuke stad om te bezoeken. Ik wil er
niet wonen.
En die uitspraak van 'v' als 'f' en 'z' als 's' vind ik vreselijk
om te horen.

Amsterdams:  De sjon in de sjee sjien schène...
Nederlands:    De zon in de zee zien schijnen...
Engels:           Seeing the sun being reflected in the sea...

Groetjes, Laila

P.S. If it's impossible for the other members to read this
message, I'll not write messages in Dutch anymore.

i am from glace bay nova scotia and been living in netherlands for three
years and having hard time with langusge as mostly i only talk my husband
all day

michelle

----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia Fewer <patfewer@...>
To: <DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 9:39 PM
Subject: [DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP] Introduction


> Hi everyone,
>
> My name is Pat and I am new to this list.  I am originally from
> Newfoundland, Canada but have been living in The Netherlands now for
> 10 months.  I have been learning Dutch on my own but I know I still
> have a long way to go with my studies. I look forward to being on
> this list and i would love  to help others who want to learn English.
> Ok that is it for me now.  Happy studying everyone!!  :-))
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>


_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca

Hi Laila,

How do you pronounce the 'w' in Dutch, without the teeth???
Couldn't imagine how... I tried, but the only things coming out
of my mouth are funny wounds, not w's...

Henry

>- for the 'w', you don't have to put the upper teeth againt the
>inner side of the lower lip.;
>- for the 'v', you *have* to do that.
>
>Laila
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Hallo Laila,

"emen" wordt gebruikt in 't oosten van 't land, waar ik woon.
Zoals in "ku jij da nie em'n doen?" (kun jij dat niet even doen?).
D'r wordt wel meer weggelaten, vrees ik...

In Amsterdam kom ik niet vaak, kan 'n foutje van mij zijn.

Henry

>> Although usually it's "even", "emen" is more likely to be used
>by
>> people who have Saxon or Frisian as their first language.
>> I don't think the v is ever voiceless though.
>
>Waar spreken ze de 'v' uit als 'm'?
>
>In Amsterdam spreken ze echt vaak een stemloze 'v', zeker
>initiaal.

Hallo Henry,

> You're right about the [v], it is sometimes pronounced as an
[f],
> usually that happens when it's an initial v, like for example
in
> _vrij_ (free). The middle v is another case, sometimes people
> will pronounce it as [m], as in _even_, which becomes "emen".
> Although usually it's "even", "emen" is more likely to be used
by
> people who have Saxon or Frisian as their first language.
> I don't think the v is ever voiceless though.

Waar spreken ze de 'v' uit als 'm'?

In Amsterdam spreken ze echt vaak een stemloze 'v', zeker
initiaal.

Groetjes, Laila

Hi Pat,

> I have been learning Dutch on my own but I know I still
> have a long way to go with my studies. I look forward to being
on
> this list and i would love  to help others who want to learn
English.
> Ok that is it for me now.  Happy studying everyone!!  :-))

I don't know where you live, of course. The place to attend
relatively cheap lessons is at a ROC. That's a college for mostly
adult students. It would cost you a few hundred guilders a
year...

Laila

Hi Urban,

You're right about the [v], it is sometimes pronounced as an [f],
usually that happens when it's an initial v, like for example in
_vrij_ (free). The middle v is another case, sometimes people
will pronounce it as [m], as in _even_, which becomes "emen".
Although usually it's "even", "emen" is more likely to be used by
people who have Saxon or Frisian as their first language.
I don't think the v is ever voiceless though.

Though people often pronounce the initial v as [f], there's nothing
wrong in pronouncing it as [v]. If however, you insist on pronouncing
it the same, just try pronouncing it as English [v], but with a heavier
air stream, as you mentioned, and your upper teeth at the inside of
your lower lip, a little lower as the Dutch w.

As for w, you're correct when saying it's not like the English [w],
but rather like [v]. You pronounce it with the upper teeth against
the inside of the lower lip (also slightly below the upper crest).
The English [w] is pronounced with your lips rounded, and without
teeth.

The wide variation is probably due to the relatively high number of
languages  we have here (4 in one country) and the large number of
dialects within those languages.

regards,
Henry

Hi David,

> I have also wondered about the subtleties
> of v and w....especially when
> singing,

> "Ik heb mijn wagen vol geladen, vol met oude wijven"

As I wrote to Urban, you can put your teeth, tongue and lips in
the same position for the 'w' as for the 'v'. It can be done
otherwise too:
- for the 'w', you don't have to put the upper teeth againt the
inner side of the lower lip.;
- for the 'v', you *have* to do that.

Laila

Hi Urban,

> ik ben een beginneling,

It's nice you've started!

[...]

> I do have a couple of questions already --
> are there any phoneticians out there? One thing
> that's bugging me is the sound spelled "v".
> I've gathered (from Bruce Donaldson's _Dutch:
> A Comprehensive Grammar_) that it sometimes
> (in the Northern Netherlands and in word initial
> position) is pronounced just like the "f", and some
> speakers on the CD do in fact pronounce it like
> that. But otherwise ...

He's right - but it's every day's practice and it's not as it
should be. Kind of dialect. In Amsterdam for example, most people
will pronounce it like that. The will do that with other
voiceless consonants too, like 'z'.

> Someone told me that it should be a voiceless [v],

That someone is right.

> but I seem to hear a voiced sound on the CD.

Well, the cd was probably produced in Holland, near Amsterdam,
and the'll have had speakers from the North-West too.

> To me it rather sounds like a voiced [f], i.e.
> voiced like a [v] but with heavier air stream, like an [f]. The
closest I
> can get when trying to produce the sound is when I have the
upper teeth
> against the inside (slightly below the upper crest) of the
lower lip. (When
> I pronounce an English [v] the contact is more towards the
outside of the
> lower lip). Can anyone provide a description of the Dutch sound
in
> articulatory terms (or recommend a book that does)?

Upper teeth against the inside, like you supposed.

> Also, the sound spelled "w" in Dutch sometimes sound like
English [v],
> sometimes like [w]. Are my ears playing a trick on me, or is
there really
> such a variation?

For the Dutch 'w' you can put your teeth, tongue and lips in the
same position as for the 'v' but without the heavy air stream.

Laila

Hi everyone,

My name is Pat and I am new to this list.  I am originally from
Newfoundland, Canada but have been living in The Netherlands now for
10 months.  I have been learning Dutch on my own but I know I still
have a long way to go with my studies. I look forward to being on
this list and i would love  to help others who want to learn English.
Ok that is it for me now.  Happy studying everyone!!  :-))

Pat

Hi list,

I've subscribed yesterday (or was it the day before that?),
immediately after I received the notice on the other Dutch
eGroup, but I haven't introduced myself, so here's about me.

I'm a Dutchmen, living in the east of the Netherlands.
Therefore, my mothertongue isn't Dutch, but Low-Saxon.
However, Dutch is a good runner-up, and I can be considered
a native speaker anyway. I'm also quite proficient in English
(if I may say so), so I thought I might be of some help to this
group, as languages are becoming a bit of a hobby of mine.

groetjes,
Henry

Urban,

I have also wondered about the subtleties of v and w....especially when
singing,

"Ik heb mijn wagen vol geladen, vol met oude wijven"

Met vriendelijke groeten,
David B. Frank
Montvale, Virginia

Urban Lindqvist schreef:

> Hi,
>
> ik ben een beginneling, and I'm glad that this list is active. I've bought
> myself the "Learn Dutch Now" CD, and it seems quite good. I usually learn
> languages through books, so this is the first time I use something like
> this, and it's nice to have native speakers' voices with the texts. I'll
> check out those zip files uploaded to the files area at eGroups as well
> (thanks).
>
> I do have a couple of questions already -- are there any phoneticians out
> there? One thing that's bugging me is the sound spelled "v". I've gathered
> (from Bruce Donaldson's _Dutch: A Comprehensive Grammar_) that it sometimes
> (in the Northern Netherlands and in word initial position) is pronounced
> just like the "f", and some speakers on the CD do in fact pronounce it like
> that. But otherwise ...
> Someone told me that it should be a voiceless [v], but I seem to hear a
> voiced sound on the CD. To me it rather sounds like a voiced [f], i.e.
> voiced like a [v] but with heavier air stream, like an [f]. The closest I
> can get when trying to produce the sound is when I have the upper teeth
> against the inside (slightly below the upper crest) of the lower lip. (When
> I pronounce an English [v] the contact is more towards the outside of the
> lower lip). Can anyone provide a description of the Dutch sound in
> articulatory terms (or recommend a book that does)?
> Also, the sound spelled "w" in Dutch sometimes sound like English [v],
> sometimes like [w]. Are my ears playing a trick on me, or is there really
> such a variation?
>
> Thanks
>
> Urban
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Hi,

ik ben een beginneling, and I'm glad that this list is active. I've bought
myself the "Learn Dutch Now" CD, and it seems quite good. I usually learn
languages through books, so this is the first time I use something like
this, and it's nice to have native speakers' voices with the texts. I'll
check out those zip files uploaded to the files area at eGroups as well
(thanks).

I do have a couple of questions already -- are there any phoneticians out
there? One thing that's bugging me is the sound spelled "v". I've gathered
(from Bruce Donaldson's _Dutch: A Comprehensive Grammar_) that it sometimes
(in the Northern Netherlands and in word initial position) is pronounced
just like the "f", and some speakers on the CD do in fact pronounce it like
that. But otherwise ...
Someone told me that it should be a voiceless [v], but I seem to hear a
voiced sound on the CD. To me it rather sounds like a voiced [f], i.e.
voiced like a [v] but with heavier air stream, like an [f]. The closest I
can get when trying to produce the sound is when I have the upper teeth
against the inside (slightly below the upper crest) of the lower lip. (When
I pronounce an English [v] the contact is more towards the outside of the
lower lip). Can anyone provide a description of the Dutch sound in
articulatory terms (or recommend a book that does)?
Also, the sound spelled "w" in Dutch sometimes sound like English [v],
sometimes like [w]. Are my ears playing a trick on me, or is there really
such a variation?

Thanks

Urban

Hi,

I put two little zipped programs with the files at eGroups:
http://www.egroups.nl/files/DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP/Laila/

The first one consists of a simple text (in txt-format), number
1, from a book for starting students. For each sentence there's a
little wav-file so you can hear how it should be pronounced.

The second one is a program with which you can learn Dutch words,
using an Dutch-English vocabulary. Should you encounter problems
running it, feel free to contact me.

Laila

Andy, You wrote: "I was hoping that it was going to be a simpler
channel as my dutch is VERY simple"

Please don't hesitate to ask any questions here in this group. The
reason it was created is to help and learn. I am also in the early
stages of "independent learning". I can write a sentence such as "Ik
ben moe." meaning I am tired. Beyond that, it gets difficult :-)
Hopefully, in this group, everyone's learning process can move
forward.
Even if you are just beginning and you need help regarding anything,
please ask, and hopefully, it will be answered here. Again, let me
say,
this is why this group was created, "to learn and to help each other
learn."
Regards
lakota

Dag Andy,

> I got the same invitation and I was hoping
> that it was going to be a simpler channel
> as my dutch is VERY simple.  I am reading
> a self study book and I am on about chapter
> 8 at the moment.

It's quite difficult learning a language by reading books alone.
Mind you, I do have a British student in my class who has studied
the same way before he came to our college - but now he has a
Dutch girlfriend and that makes it a lot easier for him. There
can be so many questions but don't hesitate to ask them, I
suppose that's what this list is for too.
I'll go through my simple computerprograms and put them with the
files - zipped, of course. Mostly it's grammar and learning
words.

> What I really need is a dutch person that I can
> meet up with london, someone who would be
> willing to help me with my grammer and have
> general chit-chat but I have no idea how to go
> about this so I shall stick to these.

I'm sorry I don't live in London - although I'm not sure living
there would be as nice as visiting... Talking to each other irl
surely would help. But grammatical problems could be solved by
asking questions here.

> Shame you are in the Netherlands.  You
> wouldn't know anyone in London would
> you?

Sorry...

> Anyway, if I have some grammer queries
> I won't hesitate to mail the list.

Please do!

Laila

Dag Laila,

     I got the same invitation and I was hoping that it was going to be a
simpler channel as my dutch is VERY simple.  I am reading a self study book
and I am on about chapter 8 at the moment.  What I really need is a dutch
person that I can meet up with london, someone who would be willing to help
me with my grammer and have general chit-chat but I have no idea how to go
about this so I shall stick to these.

Shame you are in the Netherlands.  You wouldn't know anyone in London would
you?

Anyway, if I have some grammer queries I won't hesitate to mail the list.

Andy


----- Original Message -----
From: Laila Rosenberg <e.rosenberg@...>
To: Dutch-English <DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 5:19 AM
Subject: [DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP] New member


> Hi,
>
> I just joined this group because I got a message from somebody
> which I took as an invitation.
> I'm a teacher in the Netherlands, working with adult foreigners
> teaching them Dutch. As my work is also my hobby I'm always
> looking for an opportunity to talk and write about languages, my
> language, language problems and solutions. And of course this
> group could work both ways as I'm not as proficient in English as
> I'd like to be. Grammar school is a long time ago!
>
> Laila
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> DUTCH-ENGLISH-STUDY-GROUP-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>

Hi,

I just joined this group because I got a message from somebody
which I took as an invitation.
I'm a teacher in the Netherlands, working with adult foreigners
teaching them Dutch. As my work is also my hobby I'm always
looking for an opportunity to talk and write about languages, my
language, language problems and solutions. And of course this
group could work both ways as I'm not as proficient in English as
I'd like to be. Grammar school is a long time ago!

Laila

Welcome to everyone.
I am one of the creators of this new group, so therefore, I will post
the first message to get things started. I am wondering if
anyone knows of any simple rhymes for learning Dutch rules like we
have in English? In English, we have for example, "i" before
"e" except after "c" unless it sounds like an "a" as in "neighbor"
and "weigh". I think it would be interesting and helpful knowing
any of the Dutch ones. Do they have them for spelling, word order or
grammar? I have not heard of any, so I am curious to know,
and also hoping that they may make learning Dutch a bit easier as it
did in elementary school.
Thank you
lakota

I just want to welcome all the new members that have joined this new
study group. I hope we all can help each other with
learning Dutch or English. I am sure that we all know how difficult
it is to learn on your own with no Native Helpers. I do hope
that here, we can ease some of the problems and make our learning
process easier and less frustrating. Here, we can ask and
discuss any question. Every question is important and hopefully it
can be answered here. Even if you need to know the best way
to say "We are having storms today." hopefully someone will have an
answer. Maybe even an explaination or rule as to why it is that way.
If you need to know the best tense to use in a
sentence, hopefully it can be answered here. The learning process is
no easy task, and it is this study group's wish to make it
easier. Again I welcome you all and thank you for joining this group
in its infancy.
Dank je wel,
lakota